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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you hey there, Text Stuff listeners, This

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Speaker 1: is Jonathan Strickland and I have got a request for

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Speaker 1: all of you. Now, Chris and I have decided that

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Speaker 1: we're going to try and experiment. We're doing our first

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Speaker 1: crowd sourced episode of tech Stuff and we want to

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Speaker 1: know what your pick is for the worst video game

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Speaker 1: of all time. Now, nominations you can. You can make

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Speaker 1: one nomination. You nominate one game, and you need to

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Speaker 1: tell us the name of the game and the platform

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Speaker 1: it was on. And it could be any platform. It

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Speaker 1: could be an arcade game, it could be a PC, Mac, Xbox,

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Speaker 1: PS three, Nintendo handheld console. It can be web based

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Speaker 1: if you like. But just you let us know what

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Speaker 1: the platform is so we can make sure we count

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Speaker 1: that as the votes. So you can nominate your game

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Speaker 1: either through email, which is tech Stuff at how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com, or you can nominate through Twitter or Facebook.

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Speaker 1: And we're gonna put a cut off date on this.

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Speaker 1: I want to have the episode go up by the

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Speaker 1: end of September of eleven. So let's say you need

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Speaker 1: to get your nominations in by September eleven. So if

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Speaker 1: you get those nominations into us, we will make sure

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Speaker 1: we include those in the process and we will have

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Speaker 1: an episode where we give you the worst video games

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Speaker 1: of all time based upon the votes of our listeners.

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Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Can't wait to hear from you. Get

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Speaker 1: in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello again, everyone, Welcome to tech Stuff.

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Speaker 1: My name is Chris Paulette. I am an editor at

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Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com and sitting across from me

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Speaker 1: as always a senior writer, Jonathan Strickland. I always feel

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Speaker 1: like somebody's watching me and I have no privacy. You know,

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Speaker 1: I have to admit you rockwell. So, uh, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk today about anonymity and the web and its relationship

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Speaker 1: with one another and how things have been changing over time.

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Speaker 1: And this also ties a lot into a privacy in

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Speaker 1: the web. In fact, the two are. These topics are

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Speaker 1: all very closely related. But um it's It's been in

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Speaker 1: the news a lot recently, and by recently I mean

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Speaker 1: the summer of of two thousand eleven because of a

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Speaker 1: couple of different things. First of all, a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago, you had um me it was only a

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Speaker 1: year ago, but you had Mark Zuckerberg say that the

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Speaker 1: the whole notion of privacy was falling out of social norms,

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Speaker 1: meaning that people today don't value privacy or don't think

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Speaker 1: of privacy is something that's important the way that generations

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Speaker 1: earlier had, you know, thought of the subject. So uh

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Speaker 1: that that actually kind of explains a lot about certain

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Speaker 1: things that Facebook has done over the past, where you know,

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Speaker 1: it's all about sharing information, particularly information about yourself and

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Speaker 1: the things you like to do and the places you

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Speaker 1: like to go. And then you know, the the argument

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Speaker 1: I think someone at Facebook would make is that the

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Speaker 1: more you share, the more you're going to get out

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Speaker 1: of that service. So if you do not share a lot,

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Speaker 1: you won't really benefit from the service the way you

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Speaker 1: do if you are someone who shares lots of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Although even that, you know, we could anyone could tell

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Speaker 1: you if they have a friend who shares absolutely everything

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Speaker 1: that that can get old too. Yes. Sorry, look, I

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Speaker 1: thought it was a particularly interesting bowl of oatmeal, so

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Speaker 1: I shared it. Well, it's always nice to share oatmeal.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, But all right, anyway, we're getting off track,

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Speaker 1: because I mean I just go back to the Oatmeal

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Speaker 1: Party where Josh Clark did that well anyway, So so

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Speaker 1: Facebook's approach is saying that anonymity and privacy really kind

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Speaker 1: of those are old ideas that that we're slowly seeing

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Speaker 1: phase out. And then the other thing that kind of

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Speaker 1: brought this into attention was a Google launching Google Plus,

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Speaker 1: and we did that episode on Google Plus, that epic

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Speaker 1: Google Plus episode. One thing we didn't really talk about

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Speaker 1: that much was that Google Plus. You know, in order

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Speaker 1: to have a Google Plus profile, you have to have

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Speaker 1: a Google profile. In order to have a Google profile,

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Speaker 1: it has to be a Google profile that's public because

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Speaker 1: they eliminated all private Google profiles, and you had to

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Speaker 1: have a name associated with that profile, and it didn't

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Speaker 1: have to necessarily be your legal name, but it didn't

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Speaker 1: have to be the name that you go by the

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Speaker 1: most frequently. And so you would you know, I have

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Speaker 1: to put a first name in a last name and

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Speaker 1: make it make it a legitimate name if it were

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Speaker 1: something that was clearly a handle or a nickname or

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Speaker 1: just unusual had some odd characters in it, like not

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Speaker 1: like you know, Alex from Clockwork Orange odd characters, but

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Speaker 1: like symbols like at symbols or hashtags or things like that. Um,

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Speaker 1: that Google would flag it and then Google would suspend

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Speaker 1: your Google Plus account as a darn good thing that

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Speaker 1: Prince decided to go back to being prints. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: he the web's over compared, if you ask Prince. So

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Speaker 1: it's immaterial for this discussion. Yeah, irregardless, Um supposedly supposedly,

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, anyway, if you if you put these these

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Speaker 1: symbols into your name, or you had some other weird

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Speaker 1: name going in there, Google might flag your account and

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Speaker 1: suspend it. Uh. They then later on kind of adjusted

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Speaker 1: that a little bit where they would give you a

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Speaker 1: warning saying you need to go into your Google profile

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Speaker 1: and put in your actual name, and you could add

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Speaker 1: in nicknames and stuff in another field called other names,

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Speaker 1: but that the name associated with your profile would be

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Speaker 1: your real name. Now, that brought up some some questions

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Speaker 1: among a lot of users, and it ranges through the

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Speaker 1: whole actrum. You've got the spectrum that includes people who

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Speaker 1: are you know the Their argument is that, hey, I

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Speaker 1: have made a a name for myself under this persona.

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Speaker 1: It's like bran Yeah, a brand exactly. It's like a brand.

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Speaker 1: So um, the example I used in my blog post

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Speaker 1: was Dr Kiki of Dr Kiki Science. Yeah, she's she's

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Speaker 1: a scientist. Um uh, and she is known as Dr Kiki.

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Speaker 1: Her first name is I believe Kirsten. But but you know,

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Speaker 1: she that's not what everyone knows her as. So she

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Speaker 1: created a Google profile using Dr Kiki and um uh, yes,

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Speaker 1: Kirsten Sandford. That's her name, Dr Kirsten Sandford. So she

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Speaker 1: went she goes as everyone knows her is Dr Kiki,

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Speaker 1: So that's what she created a Google profile as. But

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Speaker 1: she her Google Plus profile was suspended because it did

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Speaker 1: it violated the rules that Google had set up. And

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Speaker 1: Google's argument was that he wanted to create a social

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Speaker 1: network that would let people connect with folks they know

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Speaker 1: and folks they know of easily, and that that if

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Speaker 1: you start putting in handles and things and you're cloaking

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Speaker 1: your identity, that's kind of antithetical to what Google meant

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Speaker 1: Google Plus two be. The problem is that's not the

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Speaker 1: way people use the web. You know, people use the

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Speaker 1: web in all sorts of different ways. There are people

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Speaker 1: who will use their own names as their handles. For example,

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Speaker 1: I'm one of those people. I use my own name

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Speaker 1: as my handle pretty much everywhere. And uh, the reason

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Speaker 1: for that is so that I keep myself accountable for

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Speaker 1: the things I say. It's a personal choice. I don't

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Speaker 1: judge anyone else who goes by a handle. I totally

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Speaker 1: understand that, and I think anonymity is an interesting and

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Speaker 1: important issue. I just, for myself choose to use my

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Speaker 1: own name because one, uh, that's kind of my brand.

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Speaker 1: It's my name at this point, if I had gone

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Speaker 1: by some other weird whacking, might probably be using that everywhere.

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Speaker 1: But to you know, it's just again, it just keeps

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Speaker 1: me responsible for the things I say. I'm less likely

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Speaker 1: to say something really offensive or outrageous or just pigheaded

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Speaker 1: because it's attached to my name, and I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: go onto some forum and and tell off the person

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Speaker 1: who posted above me that they're a complete jerk and

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Speaker 1: an idiot. And you know, I'm I'm less likely to

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Speaker 1: do that. I still do it, I just don't do

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Speaker 1: it as frequently as I would if I had. You know,

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Speaker 1: you know, hamster Man seventy three was my handle, and

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Speaker 1: no one knew that that was me, but we all

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Speaker 1: know now well, I don't post under that handle anymore.

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Speaker 1: You won't find those YouTube comments coming from me anymore. Buster. Yea,

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Speaker 1: well it's funny. Um, you need to it's weird to

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Speaker 1: put this in perspective. So you know, to some degree,

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Speaker 1: I think online Mark Zuckerberg has a point. We've gotten

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Speaker 1: to the point where we're interested in social networking. Um.

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Speaker 1: We have business profiles on LinkedIn dot com. We've got uh, Facebook, Twitter,

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Speaker 1: Google Plus and all the others for our social fun

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Speaker 1: you know, our our informal networking, in some case business

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Speaker 1: networking too. Um and And it's hard. It's when you've

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Speaker 1: gotten used to the idea of the right to privacy,

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Speaker 1: which um, you know here in the United States we

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Speaker 1: have a certain expectation of personal privacy um and not

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Speaker 1: that's not necessarily true everywhere else in the world. But

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Speaker 1: when you've established all these accounts and you say, no,

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Speaker 1: I just want to be online and have my uh

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Speaker 1: my ten family members and sixty friends and that's it.

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Speaker 1: That's all I want on my account. I don't want

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Speaker 1: everyone else to read my post. Why are you making

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Speaker 1: them available? Um. The thing is, Mark has a point

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Speaker 1: because if you you do have that right to privacy,

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Speaker 1: but when you join Facebook, the point is to be

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Speaker 1: social and you know, I don't want I'm of those

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Speaker 1: people that would prefer to socialize with people I know

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Speaker 1: in real life and not you know everybody online that

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Speaker 1: I that I really don't know that well. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, you know, if if I joined Facebook

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Speaker 1: and I don't have you know, I have to play

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Speaker 1: the rules, by the rules of Facebook, and if Facebook

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Speaker 1: says on Facebook, you don't have the right to privacy,

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Speaker 1: and to the same extent, I mean, you're you're everyone

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Speaker 1: can see you. Now. You don't have to publish your

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Speaker 1: stuff so that the world can read every single post

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Speaker 1: you write, but everybody's gonna be able to see that

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Speaker 1: you have a profile. And that's just the way it

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Speaker 1: is on Facebook, And um, you know, I I see

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Speaker 1: the annoyance, but I don't see why people get so

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Speaker 1: very angry simply because you've you're you're agreeing to the

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Speaker 1: terms of service for joining those accounts. And that's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons I wasn't anxious to uh join Google

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Speaker 1: Plus right away. It was because I realized that I

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Speaker 1: was going to have to make my profile public and

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Speaker 1: everybody was going to be able to see it was me,

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Speaker 1: And um, you're allowed to use your nickname, because I mean,

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Speaker 1: not only is that against the rules, but it also

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Speaker 1: shows up against your account. So if I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be Larry the Wonder Beagle, then all my email on

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Speaker 1: Gmail comes from Larry the Wonder Beagle, and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do that because I keep in touch with you.

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Speaker 1: You would essentially have to create a second Gmail account

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Speaker 1: just for your Google Plus profile. In that case, what

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Speaker 1: you could theoretically do, although you're again kind of skirting

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Speaker 1: the rules there. Yeah, yeah, so I mean that's and

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Speaker 1: it would be annoying because you'd always have to log

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Speaker 1: out of one account and log into the other whenever

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Speaker 1: you wanted to check your quote unquote real email. Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a pain in the neck. But the

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Speaker 1: thing is, and again, this has nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: the actual law. This has to do with the terms

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Speaker 1: of service of the website you're using, and it is.

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Speaker 1: It is frustrating, I admit, And you know, I think

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Speaker 1: I think where a lot of the concern comes from

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Speaker 1: is not just like I think there are some people

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Speaker 1: who who agree, like, all right, I get it. If

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Speaker 1: I want to be on blah blah blah, I have

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Speaker 1: to play by their rules. Yeah, I think there is

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Speaker 1: that the approach to eliminating anonymity entirely. They're they're worried

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Speaker 1: about that being more of a broad approach to the

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Speaker 1: web in general. Yeah, and I worry about that too. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's something that I'm not interested because because that would

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Speaker 1: be let's let's say that Twitter made that same same

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Speaker 1: decision that your Twitter handle had to be your first

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Speaker 1: and last name. Now for me, it happens to be that,

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Speaker 1: but a shortened version of my first name because Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Strickland does not fit as a full Twitter handle. Um,

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Speaker 1: so you know, Johnny Cakes, that's me. No, it's not,

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Speaker 1: It's not really me anyway, So cake cake, I prefer

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Speaker 1: pie pie anyway. If Twitter did that, then you know,

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Speaker 1: you think about that there there we've seen Twitter being

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Speaker 1: used in things like a political revolutions, you know, political unrest, turmoil, riots,

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing, protests, uh, situations where the people

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Speaker 1: who are organizing it definitely would not want their their

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Speaker 1: idea that he shared with the general public because it

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Speaker 1: would put themselves in danger, physical danger, and it would

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Speaker 1: it would help prevent them from doing the the political

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Speaker 1: activist work they were trying to do, like if they

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Speaker 1: were to post something and it was traced back to

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Speaker 1: their identity, they could be you know, theoretically by by

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Speaker 1: an oppressive government brought in. And then not only do

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Speaker 1: you have a person brought in by the same government

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Speaker 1: they were trying to protest, but whatever activities they were

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Speaker 1: trying to organize have been, um, you know, have been

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Speaker 1: somewhat well sidetracked, have been have been sabotaged exactly because

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Speaker 1: you no longer have that anonymity. And so there is

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Speaker 1: a definite place for anonymity on the web. So you

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Speaker 1: here here, like, let's talk about some of the different

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Speaker 1: arguments that people make for and against anonymity. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: we've already covered one of them, which is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you want to be able to connect with people,

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Speaker 1: you need to be able to know who to look for.

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Speaker 1: And it's kind of hard to look for someone if

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Speaker 1: every one's using up fake names everywhere. So that's one

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Speaker 1: argument against anonymity. Um another is another argument against anonymity

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Speaker 1: is that, uh, making someone use their own name kind

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Speaker 1: of the way I was explained my own personal approach,

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Speaker 1: UH keep some somewhat accountable for their words and actions.

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Speaker 1: So in other words, The idea is that if you

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Speaker 1: make sure that people cannot be anonymous, you really cut

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Speaker 1: back on trolling. That's that's ultimately what we get down to.

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Speaker 1: So can you imagine what a place YouTube would be

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Speaker 1: if everyone had to use their real names and like

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Speaker 1: there was a way of really linking an account to

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Speaker 1: an actual person as opposed to just a handle, because

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Speaker 1: I mean, you look at some of the quotes on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: and they are some of the meanest, nastiest, mean spirited

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Speaker 1: stuff I've ever read anywhere, and just on a typical

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Speaker 1: video even you know something that a video that has

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Speaker 1: no objectionable material real in it, it's just silly, or

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Speaker 1: it's or it's even you know, even if it's boring.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you get the nastiest responses. And so the argument

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Speaker 1: is that, well, if you made sure that people could

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Speaker 1: not be anonymous, couldn't hide behind a pseudonym or a handle,

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Speaker 1: that they would be nicer. And that's probably true for

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Speaker 1: most people, they would probably be nicer. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that it would magically make the web a shiny, happy

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Speaker 1: place and no one would ever disagree with anyone, and

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Speaker 1: you would never have anyone call anyone else a hurtful

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Speaker 1: name or anything that's naive that would still happen, but

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Speaker 1: I think it would cut down quite a bit on

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Speaker 1: the trollish behavior. But I don't know that the trade

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Speaker 1: off is worth that, you know, So anyway, those are

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Speaker 1: those are two arguments against anonymity. But one that we've

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Speaker 1: mentioned already is what if you want to be able

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Speaker 1: to protest something or to bring attention to an issue

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Speaker 1: that could get yourself in trouble, um, just because of

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Speaker 1: your circumstances. That's true, um, And there's a difference to

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Speaker 1: I mean, we could take, uh, we could take specifically

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Speaker 1: the the example of Google itself. So on the one hand,

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Speaker 1: you've got Google Plus, which is a social networking service

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Speaker 1: that is optional for you to join. You if you

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Speaker 1: if you want to join the service. Currently as of

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Speaker 1: the time we're recording this, you have to use your

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Speaker 1: real name and that's up to you. You do not

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Speaker 1: have to join Google Plus. Then you have Google street

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Speaker 1: View on the other hand, and this um again, long

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Speaker 1: term listeners will know that we've talked about this before

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Speaker 1: on the on previous podcasts. So Google street View, the

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Speaker 1: idea of being that Google is sending cars on driving

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Speaker 1: around neighborhoods driving on city streets. Um. And basically they

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Speaker 1: take pan panoramic photos of the streets so you can

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Speaker 1: see I personally find it really helpful when I'm looking

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Speaker 1: for a business that I've never seen before. I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to get there and you can go look it up

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Speaker 1: online and see a picture of what it looks like. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's the green building, and you can pan around and

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Speaker 1: see what the surrounding buildings are and you you get

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Speaker 1: an idea for the landmarks. Yes, it's it's it's really

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Speaker 1: a neat idea. The concept on the table right there

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Speaker 1: is a neat idea, especially when you apply to things

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Speaker 1: like I want to take a virtual tour of a

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Speaker 1: city I've never been in, and you could literally do

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Speaker 1: that if you have a fast enough connection to the

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Speaker 1: internet and a good processor, then yeah you can. You

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Speaker 1: can you know, navigate through street view and go down

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Speaker 1: streets in cities just as if you were there, um,

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Speaker 1: without the like, you know, you can stroll down New

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Speaker 1: York City at night without worrying about getting bugged. So

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Speaker 1: I don't think would be at night, well no, but

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Speaker 1: it would it would be kind of hard to see,

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Speaker 1: but um, yeah, and there are. There are many funny

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Speaker 1: stories about Google street View, the cameras getting knocked off

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Speaker 1: by low bridges, and people doing crazy things. People hearing

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Speaker 1: that street view was coming through, so they arrange for

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Speaker 1: some sort of bizarre demonstration or sword fights, mooning, you know,

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Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. But the thing is to people

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Speaker 1: complain that they're taking photos of their houses without any permission.

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Speaker 1: It's an invasion of privacy. As the argument, yes, um,

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Speaker 1: and so there you go. You you you know, suddenly

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Speaker 1: your house is there and you can't opt out of it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you know. Plus there are many many phone directories

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Speaker 1: with with information in there. Uh they scrape phone books

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Speaker 1: and you know, their of course legitimate phone books as

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Speaker 1: well phone directories online. So if you put two and

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Speaker 1: two together, you can figure out where somebody lives and

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Speaker 1: what their house looks like. Yeah. Now, if you've if

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Speaker 1: you've managed to stay unlisted and everything, then there may

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Speaker 1: not be a connection between you the person and your

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Speaker 1: wherever you call home. So but for the majority of people,

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, you know, with a little snooping, you

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Speaker 1: could easily figure out where someone lives. And then through

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Speaker 1: street view you can see you can actually see their

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Speaker 1: their house, which I mean, you know you can argue,

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Speaker 1: well that let's let's uh potential thieves case the joint

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Speaker 1: without ever leaving, um, leaving wherever they are. You know

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Speaker 1: they can they can look it up and then get

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Speaker 1: a real good view at least to the front of

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Speaker 1: the house, maybe even the back of the house, depending

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Speaker 1: on how your neighborhoods laid out. And you could use

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Speaker 1: the satellite view in in one of the mapping services

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Speaker 1: or in Google Earth to get an idea of the

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Speaker 1: lay of the land. So it's yeah, it's one of

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Speaker 1: those arguments where you make well, this this can make

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Speaker 1: us less safe and and there that is a good

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Speaker 1: argument for anonymity, saying that well, I understand that there

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Speaker 1: are uses for this technology and that um that it

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Speaker 1: can come in handy and it's a fun technology, but

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Speaker 1: there are also some serious consequences or there can be

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Speaker 1: serious consequences to enabling this technology and immediately opting everyone in.

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Speaker 1: It's not like you had a choice as far as

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Speaker 1: street view is concerned. I mean, there are some very

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Speaker 1: famous cases of towns that the essentially told Google to

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Speaker 1: go uh google themselves and get the heck out of Dodge,

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Speaker 1: although Dodge was not one of those towns. M. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and some gated communities places like that. And course in

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Speaker 1: in Europe, there have been many cases, um, in different

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Speaker 1: countries in Europe where uh, you know, they they've taken

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Speaker 1: Google to court and said, you do not have the

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Speaker 1: authority to do this, um, you know, because it violates

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Speaker 1: our country's privacy laws. So um, you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's difficult, you know, on on, but it's there is

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Speaker 1: a definite difference in um, you know, things like being

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Speaker 1: signing up to be unlisted from your phone company and

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Speaker 1: deciding to opt out of social networking services versus um,

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Speaker 1: you know, what other people post about you online. And

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Speaker 1: that's another thing too. You you can't control what other

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Speaker 1: people do, um not yet, but I'm working on it.

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Speaker 1: Why That's why I brought a crown in today. Yeah

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Speaker 1: he did, right on the table right between us, right now. UM.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, you know, I've had pictures tagged

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Speaker 1: on Facebook, um and you know, with my name on them,

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Speaker 1: and I've kind to the point where I try to

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Speaker 1: avoid having that done and I go and remove the

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Speaker 1: tags simply because I'm less comfortable being public than other people,

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Speaker 1: but I can't. I think there's this, Well I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure actually that Facebook has in its privacy settings a

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Speaker 1: setting where you can go in and make sure that

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Speaker 1: if someone wants to tag you in a photo, that

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Speaker 1: it has that requests your permission before the tag goes public.

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Speaker 1: So you can actually tweet that setting, although like all

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Speaker 1: Facebook privacy settings, it's not the easiest thing to find.

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Speaker 1: You have to kind of do a little digging. Um.

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Speaker 1: Google Plus is is kind of the same way. In

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Speaker 1: a sense, it's a lot easier to control who sees

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Speaker 1: your information when you use Google Plus because you can

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Speaker 1: just at every stage you can determine which bits of

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Speaker 1: information are visible to others and which ones aren't and

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Speaker 1: uh and you can specify you know, which users can

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Speaker 1: see it, like a circle or just a specific user.

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Speaker 1: But even so, it's it's still a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: to wade through, right, So another thing about well, another

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Speaker 1: argument you can make against anonymity. We we've already touched

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Speaker 1: on this about the trolling, but if you really want

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Speaker 1: to see and I don't recommend you do this, but

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Speaker 1: if you if you want to see what the power

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Speaker 1: of anonymity, you can go to a uh community like

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Speaker 1: community like four Chan. Yes, Now, four chan is we've

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Speaker 1: talked about before. It's a it's a message board that

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Speaker 1: allows you to post things anonymously. You don't have to

407
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Speaker 1: create an account. You can create a handle and you

408
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Speaker 1: can either use the same handle or you can use

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Speaker 1: a different handle every time you log in if you

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Speaker 1: want to. UM. Actually, that would probably make you less

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Speaker 1: likely to be traced because you're using a different one.

412
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Speaker 1: You're not creating an identity for yourself. Is there a

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Speaker 1: spout to or just a handle? It's just a handle.

414
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Speaker 1: It's actually two handles. I'm a sugar dish. Um. So

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Speaker 1: the the idea here, but four chan is that you

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Speaker 1: can share stuff without ever having to to link it

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Speaker 1: back to yourself personally. And they actually have a couple

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Speaker 1: of channing and not everything on four chan is is

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Speaker 1: of objectionable material, right. Uh. There's a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: on Fortune it's all about uh, you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of its Japanese pop culture stuff, especially um manga and anime.

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Speaker 1: But there are some channels in four chan, the random

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Speaker 1: channel being the most famous channel where anything goes and

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Speaker 1: people are using um anonymous handles in order to post stuff,

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Speaker 1: usually in order to get a reaction out of other people, um,

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Speaker 1: either to make them laugh or to shock them, or

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Speaker 1: to discuss them or whatever. But it's it's kind of

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Speaker 1: um about, it's about as close to chaos as I

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Speaker 1: can think of really. Um. Not that it's not interesting

430
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 1: or entertaining at times, but it's often very uh disturbing

431
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: to look at. So you look at that and you say, well,

432
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: if if maintaining anonymity on the web means getting this

433
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: kind of reaction where you get the sort of of

434
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: people trying to do whatever they can to get a

435
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: reaction of other folks, that's an easy thing to point

436
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: out and say, well, this is why we don't want anonymity, right.

437
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's misleading because it's it's

438
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: stating that just because you want to be anonymous, you

439
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: want to cause trouble. And I think that's you know,

440
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 1: I don't think you can draw that conclusion, but I

441
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: think that that's something that a lot of people who

442
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: argue against anonymity, Um, they will they will point their

443
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: finger at places like or or sites like four chan

444
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: and say well that's why. And I think that's shortsighted.

445
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I I just point to the political unrest

446
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 1: and in places like Egypt or uh Libya, or Iran

447
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: or Iraq, where you know, we've seen social networking come

448
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: into play and help people, and say, well, this is

449
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: where anonymity is really important. And without it, uh, it's

450
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: possible that these people would have suffered more. It's possible

451
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: that the world would have remained ignorant of what was

452
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: going on for the most part because we would just

453
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: get mainstream media coverage of whatever those events were. And either,

454
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: you know, you can be cynical. You could say that

455
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: mainstream media just doesn't do a good job of covering

456
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: that kind of information, and you know, that's that's an

457
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: argument for a different podcast. Or you could say that

458
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: mainstream media does an okay job, we just have become

459
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: very good at ignoring it, cynical in a different way.

460
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: Or it could be a combination of the two. Um,

461
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 1: I'm not arguing any of those things, of just saying

462
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: that without that, you know, if we had had the

463
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: social media, without the social media, we all we'd have

464
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: is the mainstream media approach. With the social media, it

465
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: tends to put up even when it's anonymous, it puts

466
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: a personal spin on these stories that tend to hook

467
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: us as human beings into them. Yeah, and and I

468
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: think it's also important for us to touch on enforcement

469
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 1: because you know, although Facebook and Google Plus are are

470
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: currently requiring people to use, you know, a real name

471
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: or at least the name they go by, um, no,

472
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: I nobody's requiring a birth certificate. And even then, you know,

473
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: a birth certificate could be faked. Um, let's not get

474
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: into that. But I mean, yeah, I mean you could.

475
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: You could doctor a document and send it into Facebook

476
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 1: and say, hey, so nope, see that's r real name. Um,

477
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: so you know, there there, nobody's actually doing that. And

478
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: I know people who don't use their real names on Facebook.

479
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: And for a while there they were removing people. I

480
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 1: assume they probably still are. But I remember it being

481
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: a big thing a while back, a few months ago,

482
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: maybe a year ago, and I thought, oh, well, you know,

483
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: my friend is going to have his profile removed. It

484
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: never happened when it's clearly you know, he goes by

485
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: a a band name, you know, the name of a

486
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: character creative for the for a band that he's in.

487
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: And it's like, uh, like the remote stage person. It's

488
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: a stage persona and it's clearly not a name. Well,

489
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: but you could clearly you could do that for a

490
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: fan paget without any issue at all, But for a

491
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: personal page that does tend to get a little like

492
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: if people notice, they get or if people if if

493
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: the company that is providing the service notices, you might

494
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: have some issues. But some people with particularly unusual names

495
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: I've been reading about Google Plus have had their profiles

496
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: removed and actually it's their real name. Yeah, let's happened.

497
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: I mean, there are some there's some fun names out there.

498
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: I'm reminded of my my my sister's vet Dr Stacy Stacy.

499
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: Seriously yep, Stacy Stacy. Interesting. Yeah, she says everything twice twice.

500
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: Check the papers, check the papers. Um she's uh at

501
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: any rate. Yeah, there there are issues where we see

502
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: people who are legitimately following the rules, who being punished

503
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: for not following the rules just because they happen to

504
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: have an unusual name. Um, you're gonna fall find that

505
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: pretty much in any kind of environment where they are

506
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: requiring people to use real names. Just because you know,

507
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: we're human beings. We come up with some interesting combinations

508
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,959
Speaker 1: for names. Sometimes we marry into them. Sometimes we just

509
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: luck out and are born into them. Sometimes our parents

510
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: have a cruel sence of humor. Moxi crime Fighter being

511
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: a good one. Yeah, pen Gillette's daughter Moxi crime Fighter, Gilette,

512
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: that's true. I'm not making that. I don't I don't

513
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: have any doubts. And I remember some of the countries

514
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: around the web Moon unit Moon unitz that. But that's

515
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: what I meant. Yes, um, yeah, they yeah, they were.

516
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: I remember seeing legislation in several countries where people were

517
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: trying to name their kids things like Superman. Wow. Really

518
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: um but but yeah, I mean, and it's very difficult

519
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: to enforce that without requiring any kind proof, and so

520
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: they're sort of going through and going, well, I'm that

521
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like a real name, so you can go ahead.

522
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: A lot of guesswork. So yeah, yeah, I'm sure that

523
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: Google Plus I Google seems like one of those companies

524
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: that's really eager to please, and I think I think

525
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: there are cases like this is this is also an

526
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: issue Google Plus runs into when it opens up a

527
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: private beta and the there's a disproportionate number of people

528
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: in the private beta who are public personas, especially in

529
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: the tech world. Because you have people who are known

530
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: by their brand. So Google Plus kind of brought in

531
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: on themselves in this case. But at least they're learning

532
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: this lesson very early on. Before it the recording of

533
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: this podcast. They haven't gone open, they haven't opened up

534
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 1: the social network yet, so hopefully this stuff will get

535
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: ironed out so that, UM, if you do want to

536
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: use a nickname or a brand or something as your persona,

537
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: you should be able to. UM. There's been discussion at

538
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: Google about finding ways of making that happen, although it

539
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: may not. It may mean that you have to create

540
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: a sort of profile that's not same as a personal profile,

541
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: kind of like on Facebook where you have fan pages

542
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: or group pages and then you have your personal pages. UM.

543
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: I think yes, I think. The concern really I have

544
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: is not um whether or not you could be anonymous

545
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: on Google Plus or on Facebook or whatever. My concern

546
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: is that you start to see the generation of movers

547
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: and shakers in the web space, like the Mark Zuckerberg's

548
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: of the web, who say that they think that privacy

549
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: is no longer a social norm. That concerns me, And

550
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: the reason that concerns me is because that means that

551
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: if that if that attitude becomes prevalent throughout the web,

552
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: then anonymity will become a thing in the past in

553
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: all but the smallest niche communities. So that's really where

554
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: I'm concerned, not so much in the specific cases of

555
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: Google and Facebook, but in a more general web wide case.

556
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: And will we see an anonymity get stamped out? I don't.

557
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: I don't think that will ever happen across the board,

558
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: but I can certainly see privacy and anonymity taking kind

559
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: of a uh diminished role in the future. Well, I, um,

560
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, I personally like to retain a great deal

561
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: of my privacy. Um. But at the same time, I

562
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: do think that anonymity can breed a sense of, um

563
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: recklessness when when people are willing to say whatever they

564
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: feel like they can get away with without any kinds

565
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: of repercussion. And I don't I don't particularly approve of that. Um.

566
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: But you know, at the same time too, I think, uh,

567
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: you know, the idea that we have all given up

568
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: our privacy and this is just the way things are

569
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: going to be also encourages people to share too much information.

570
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: You know, Hey, I'm going out of town for two weeks.

571
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: Look at this here, here are pictures of my trip

572
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and then two posts later, oh,

573
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: the police just called. Someone broke into my house. You know.

574
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: I mean if if if you go, well, you know,

575
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: it's all public anyway, who cares? Then you know you're

576
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: I I think I don't think there's as much to

577
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: discourage you from over sharing things that you shouldn't share. Well, yeah,

578
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: and and the Internet has made it so easy to

579
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: share things as soon as you think of them that

580
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: that's that's also an issue. Like the Google Plus setting

581
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: for your phone that instantly uploads any photo you take. Yes,

582
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: but you don't have to have those shared publicly. You

583
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: don't have to. But if you don't, yes, um yeah,

584
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: the yes is getting easier and easier for you to

585
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: to upload your thoughts immediately to the Internet without filtering

586
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: them first, which is why whenever I make my social network,

587
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have a little window pup ups that do

588
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: you really want to post that? And when you click yes,

589
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: do you really really want to post that? And then

590
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: when you click yes, it it posts, and then at

591
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: the very end it says if this is stupid, it's

592
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: not because I didn't tell him, so well, that's that's

593
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: why I started my own anti social network and I

594
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: am I am the only member, right uh, and that

595
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: is unlikely to change, right, It's just it's just it's

596
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: just me. It's just a black web page. You go

597
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: to the web page, there's nothing on it. It's just

598
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: it's just black. Well, it saves me a lot of

599
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: time because they don't have to check it very often. Yeah,

600
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. There is at the very bomb if you

601
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 1: scroll all the way down and it's long, there's an

602
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: under construction, the shovel digging with the hard hat. Because

603
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna bring geo cities back one web page at

604
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: a time. Alright, So we're gonna wrap up this discussion

605
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: on anonymity privacy in the web. Um, we want to

606
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: hear what your thoughts are. What do you think do

607
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: you think privacy and anonymity is that? Is that even

608
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: at all important to you? Do you even think about it?

609
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: Or is it just doesn't just sound like something that

610
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: old people like like Chris and myself talk about, because

611
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: it might very well be because we're old. Let us know.

612
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook and Twitter are handled.

613
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: There is text stuff hs W or you can see

614
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: this email that addresses tex Stuff how stuff works dot com.

615
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: Chris and I will talk to you again really soon.

616
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff

617
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we

618
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow. The

619
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived. Download it today

620
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: on iTunes, brought to you by the reinvented two thousand

621
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Speaker 1: twelve camera. It's ready, are you