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Speaker 1: Ah beaut Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software Radio, special operations, military

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Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys and the community

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Speaker 1: softwreup dot com on time on Target. I'm very excited

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Speaker 1: of Mike Binding back on and pretty much ever since

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Speaker 1: we had him on last time, I've gotten tons of

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Speaker 1: comments and emails of when is Part two? And the

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Speaker 1: cool thing was, we just had this UM team meeting

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Speaker 1: for the first half of the year with Hurricane Media,

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Speaker 1: and the one thing that I mentioned was that first

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Speaker 1: video I put up with Mike Binding with. One of

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Speaker 1: the things I spoke about UM with the audio excerpt

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Speaker 1: was that thing got twenty listens in a matter of

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Speaker 1: like a couple of days, uh, which is pretty big

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Speaker 1: for our Instagram accounts. It's Software Radio is one SOFTWAUP

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Speaker 1: radio account is relatively new, like didn't boost the post

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Speaker 1: or anything. And I think it's because people have never

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Speaker 1: heard from this man before other than our interview. And

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Speaker 1: I'm super glad that, you know, it's getting that kind

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Speaker 1: of attention that people listen to the interview that we

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Speaker 1: did with him, because he just did some incredible things.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was he was a party to history

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Speaker 1: really in so many ways. And you know, I should

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Speaker 1: have known, but I didn't really consider it at the

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Speaker 1: time that we wouldn't be able to get it all

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Speaker 1: in in one podcast, So we decided to split it up.

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Speaker 1: I think we left off around UM the Invasion of Granada,

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Speaker 1: and he's telling us a little bit about that, So

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Speaker 1: we'll pick up sort of with the aftermath of of

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Speaker 1: Urgent Fury Operation Urgent Fury, and we'll take it from there. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And one thing you can't know until you actually are

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Speaker 1: on the line with someone is he truly is a

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Speaker 1: great storyteller. Absolutely, Yeah, he's he's got a gift at that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he has so many amazing stories to tell. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's definitely Mike Finding is the type of

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Speaker 1: person you could sit down and just listen to him

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Speaker 1: talk and learn a lot in the process. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: loved UM having this meeting with our team. One thing

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Speaker 1: I didn't even realize was that UM you know, and

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Speaker 1: I'll get to an email, but like soft rep, if

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Speaker 1: you're a UM team room member, you'll now get access

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Speaker 1: to the speck ops channel, which is great, So there's

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Speaker 1: incentives to join that UM. But everybody in our team

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Speaker 1: like just great positive people. Um, A lot of awesome

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Speaker 1: things we discussed for the future, and you had a

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Speaker 1: great time. I UM. I was going to mention Chris,

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Speaker 1: our web guy got into like a discussion with him

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Speaker 1: about the territory because he's from the Philippines. So it's

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Speaker 1: interesting hearing that perspective from a guy who votes there

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Speaker 1: and lives in the country, and how he said, like

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Speaker 1: the perception of the territey among him his friends the

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Speaker 1: voters is relatively positive, regardless of what the media says. Well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in the Philippines have been suffering

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Speaker 1: under uh uh. They've been suffering from poverty, but also

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Speaker 1: um from corruption within their government and crime. And to

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Speaker 1: Tourte is the you know, tough on crime guy with

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Speaker 1: extra judicial killings and all this other stuff. Um, so

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Speaker 1: I the ordinary you know, normal people of the Philippines,

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Speaker 1: they feel that crime. You know, the the young woman

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Speaker 1: having to walk home from the bus stop, she feels

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Speaker 1: the crime, she feels the threat, you know. So there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in the Philippine to support to

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Speaker 1: Torte because he's seen as the tough on crime guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's cool because Chris is a smart guy, and

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Speaker 1: you don't always get a chance to talk to people

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Speaker 1: who live in the Philippine and you get to see

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Speaker 1: what's going on every day. I found it to be

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Speaker 1: a mix when I talked to their military people. You know,

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Speaker 1: not that it always came up, but when it did.

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Speaker 1: You know, some of them are distrustful of do Tourte

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Speaker 1: because I think he leans too far towards China. UM.

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Speaker 1: And do Turtey does come out of a leftist background. UM,

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Speaker 1: but there are others in the military who saw in

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Speaker 1: the Filipino military, I should I should say, who see

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Speaker 1: Do Tourte as a reformer? UM thinks that he's a

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Speaker 1: positive force for change in the Philippines. I had a

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Speaker 1: great time, though, and I stayed out later than you.

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Speaker 1: I normally do not really drink, but I indulged in

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Speaker 1: some margaritas because at a Mexican place and after like

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Speaker 1: an eight hour team meeting of just like sitting down

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Speaker 1: listening to people presenting what you're doing, I was like,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm gonna unwind a little bit. So I'm

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Speaker 1: still recovering a little bit from that, a little bit

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Speaker 1: because I I ended up getting home in the am

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Speaker 1: and you know, waking up to come here in the Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I hear you. So I left kind of early after

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Speaker 1: we finished, and I didn't even realize you left. I

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Speaker 1: just looked over and it was where of Jack and

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Speaker 1: I left nine. Yeah. No, we went out after that,

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Speaker 1: but I I stopped drinking after the Mexican place. We're out,

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Speaker 1: which was just great, and I should mention just to

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Speaker 1: break balls here because it was kind of funny. Um.

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Speaker 1: On the ride to the ace where people were staying,

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Speaker 1: Brandon was like, yeah, you know, it's cool for you

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Speaker 1: guys to see these spots because you know, uh, Nick

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Speaker 1: Bett's our web guys like living in Mexico is why

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Speaker 1: you been everything. And He's like, yeah, it's cool to

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Speaker 1: see these spots that aren't touristy or else you end

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Speaker 1: up at an Applebee's in Times Square, I'll be the

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Speaker 1: rest of the tourist And I said, there's nothing wrong

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Speaker 1: with Applebee's though once in a while. And then to

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Speaker 1: go full circle, I look at Nick Bette's Instagram today

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Speaker 1: and he's up it. This is on Instagram, so I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying anything out of line here, but he's like

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Speaker 1: up at three am eating Taco Bell with his wife

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Speaker 1: after going to this like very nice Mexican place, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, nothing wrong with that. I would My advice

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Speaker 1: to people is really to avoid that whole Time Square area,

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Speaker 1: avoid Midtown food in general. However, if you've never been

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Speaker 1: to New York City, you do want to see Times

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Speaker 1: Square and why there's nothing there. But if you grew

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Speaker 1: up seeing the ball drop on TV and you've never

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Speaker 1: been here before, I understand why you'd want to. It's

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Speaker 1: like Disneyland. Yeah, there's like there's really no reason to

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Speaker 1: go there. Um yeah, I mean that's not New York City.

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Speaker 1: That's for the tourists. Yeah, that's what it thinks this for.

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Speaker 1: I would not go there. When I'm to the point,

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Speaker 1: I'm such a snob at this point, when like friends

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Speaker 1: come and they visit New York and it's like Saturday,

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Speaker 1: and like, oh, you come the Fifth Avenue with us?

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Speaker 1: Will you come to Time Square with us? I'm like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I won't. I will tell you how to get there,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not going with you. I would get it, though,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've lived in New York your whole life.

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Speaker 1: If you live somewhere else, I think you'd want at

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Speaker 1: least just view it and to be there. I understand,

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Speaker 1: I I get it, but I do not want to

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Speaker 1: go walking around Fifth Avenue on a Saturday. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: get it. It gets chaotic. Um anyway, getting some emails

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Speaker 1: here the first one I kind of mentioned, so we'll

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Speaker 1: get this one out of the way. UM. This is

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Speaker 1: from Michael to Stephano. Hey, hey guys, quick question. Just

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Speaker 1: cut the cord and got Apple TV. I'm a software

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Speaker 1: team remember. However, I can't seem to download the app

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Speaker 1: through WHO or Apple TV. Do I just need to

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Speaker 1: do more troubleshooting or are you guys not available through

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Speaker 1: those services? Help New York l L Mike Stefano, p S.

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Speaker 1: Keep up the great work. Um, so it's not as

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Speaker 1: far as I know, it's not on Apple TV or HU.

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Speaker 1: The app anyone could download. But if you want to

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Speaker 1: watch the spec Ops channel, if you're a team room

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Speaker 1: member or spec Ops channel subscriber, um yeah you could.

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Speaker 1: You could watch on your computer. I'm pretty sure that

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Speaker 1: you can watch the spec Ops channel and the train

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Speaker 1: and sell on the app. Yeah, on the software ap app,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, download right, It's it's all on the SOFTWAREPAP,

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Speaker 1: so download that and you can check it out and

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Speaker 1: even if you're not a member, you could kind of

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Speaker 1: preview some stuff and then you can read you can

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Speaker 1: read softwarep you can read the website. Um, it's actually

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Speaker 1: a pretty cool app that they built that. Yeah, Chris,

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Speaker 1: who we just talked about, doesn't amazing job he does. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then this is a little bit different of an email,

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Speaker 1: but I figured we'd we'd read it. This is from Thomas.

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Speaker 1: Good afternoon, gents. My name is T. C. Richards. I'm

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Speaker 1: a senior at Texas Tech University, and I'm pursuing a

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Speaker 1: career as an Air Force power rescument. I'm about to

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Speaker 1: get trippy as hell with y'all. I wanted to get

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Speaker 1: y'all's thoughts on a sort of supernatural concept I believe.

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Speaker 1: And he says, y'all a lot here, which sounds funny

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Speaker 1: for me as a New Yorker, But yeah, most of

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Speaker 1: y'all are combat vets. I certainly am not Jack is

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Speaker 1: uh So if anyone believes in this concept, it'll be y'all,

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Speaker 1: he say. As I said, he said, y'all, a sixth

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Speaker 1: sense that draws you to the ship, the gut feeling

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Speaker 1: that leads you to an opportunity to do your job

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Speaker 1: if y'all believe in it. Do you believe it's something

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Speaker 1: someone is born with or something that has developed personally.

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Speaker 1: I believe it's something you were born with. For whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: I've always been drawn to chaotic situations, rolling up on

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Speaker 1: car accidents, coming face to face with an active shooter

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Speaker 1: on the tech campus. Had the same feeling before all

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Speaker 1: of this ship. Let me know what y'all think. And

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Speaker 1: that's from Thomas definitely a different email, UM, but it's

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Speaker 1: it's interesting, I think because people's um instinct is either

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Speaker 1: to like run away for the chaos, from the chaos,

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Speaker 1: or run towards it. And I think he's getting it

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Speaker 1: that a little bit. I don't know if anyone has

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Speaker 1: the instinct to run towards the chaos. I think that's

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Speaker 1: like something that um it's like the super ego taking over,

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Speaker 1: you know, and telling you your instinct is to run.

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Speaker 1: But then you know there's a that voice in the

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Speaker 1: back of your head. Do I run towards? Is it

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Speaker 1: my job to run towards the danger or run away?

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Speaker 1: But the question of intuition is interesting, and I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who served in combat and other

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Speaker 1: professions as well, other than soldiers would say that there's

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Speaker 1: definitely such thing as intuition or a sixth sense. Um. Personally,

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Speaker 1: I think what it actually is is your subconscious mind

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Speaker 1: picking up on something that you haven't consciously um perceived yet.

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Speaker 1: So you know, maybe you know you haven't seen something,

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Speaker 1: but you hear something um or we we would often

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Speaker 1: say you feel something right, So it's like that feeling

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Speaker 1: of being watched, and so a lot of times it's

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Speaker 1: because you're actually being watched and you turn around somebody

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Speaker 1: looking at you, you know. So that I mean, there

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Speaker 1: is a such thing as a sixth sense, and um,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's hard to quantify what it is and

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Speaker 1: you know or rely on it, you know, for especially

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Speaker 1: like a military perspective, like Okay, we're gonna use our

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Speaker 1: sixth sense to divine where the bad guy is, like man,

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Speaker 1: that never works. But there is a such thing as intuition,

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Speaker 1: you know, our our subconscious mind can sometimes connect dots

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Speaker 1: for us and kind of guide us in the direction

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Speaker 1: that we can then use other information to confirm if

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Speaker 1: it's true. Yeah, that I think that's logical. Um, So

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Speaker 1: thanks for sending that to soft up Dot Radio. Softwareup

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Speaker 1: dot com. I I read everything that we get, even

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Speaker 1: though a lot of the emails we've been getting. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this has happened to you. Is there

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Speaker 1: There seems to be people who are writers for like

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Speaker 1: other sites that are almost have us on a list

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Speaker 1: of pitching other sites to put their articles up. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and it almost seems like they fill out a form

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Speaker 1: that it's it's pr hype. It's like press releases they

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Speaker 1: send out to everyone, but they they personalized it in

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Speaker 1: a way that Ian but it will say I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: Alex Holling's article on old Man Fitness. I write a

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Speaker 1: fitness column, and I think it's that they're still something out.

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Speaker 1: And then I get these emails. Uh so that's a

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Speaker 1: lot of our emails unfortunately. And then I get emails again, Hey, Ian,

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Speaker 1: did you get our last email? And like you could

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Speaker 1: tell they didn't read the site. They don't know that

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Speaker 1: we're a primarily veteran run. Yeah, they're just like ad

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Speaker 1: agencies and things like that. Yeah. So if you are

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Speaker 1: an actual fan sending us an email, I do read them.

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Speaker 1: We don't get to all of them. But and if

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Speaker 1: you want to send voice memos like you, as Gene

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Speaker 1: Fourn's worth often does, will play those as well if

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Speaker 1: if it's good with time too. So UM with that,

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Speaker 1: I think enough said. We will get to Mike Vining

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Speaker 1: because people are very much anticipating, um hearing the rest

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Speaker 1: of his story. UM And and as most of you

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Speaker 1: know by now, the guy's bio is just incredible. O

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Speaker 1: t C Class number one, the first ever Operators training

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Speaker 1: course for Army Delta Force. UM. And we talked about

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Speaker 1: his work as an EO D tech in Vietnam. So

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Speaker 1: let's get right over to him. Hey, Mike, turn my

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Speaker 1: volume up. Yeah, you said, you sound good. You probably

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Speaker 1: can't see us, so I want to see if I

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Speaker 1: could change. I thought we had it on here, but

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Speaker 1: you you probably could barely even see us in that

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Speaker 1: video that I can. I can see him out is

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Speaker 1: what it is. I can see you can see me? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: see him? I'm Mike. How are you doing a little clearer?

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna shut this down over here. Okay, how are

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Speaker 1: you doing? I am great? That's Jack. You're seeing it now?

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Speaker 1: You could see me, I believe right. Oh yeah, Hi Jack,

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Speaker 1: Hi Mike, how are you good? So we're excited to

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Speaker 1: have you back. You were a huge hit. If people

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Speaker 1: really love that that interview with you. Okay, thanks, all right,

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Speaker 1: So I guess we'll get right into everything, right if

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Speaker 1: if you're good to go where you want to pick

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Speaker 1: you know, start off, Yeah, I think, as I recall, Mike,

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Speaker 1: I think we left off talking about the invasion of Grenada. Uh. Um.

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Speaker 1: I guess you know you're telling us about how you know,

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Speaker 1: you guys had tried to infiltrate and on helicopter and

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Speaker 1: had been you know, shot up pretty good. I recall

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Speaker 1: talking about that. Do we then want to get into

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Speaker 1: how the rest of Grenada unfolded? Uh? For you guys, Um,

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Speaker 1: the people who had to be treated, and you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe what some of the lessons learned from the invasion were. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: During Operation Urgent Fury, the invasion of Grenada, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of lessons learned, of course, and out of

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Speaker 1: that that's how US SO Come came about. The creation

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Speaker 1: of US SO Come from all the problems that we

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Speaker 1: had communicating with the Marines and the other units that

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Speaker 1: were involved in the operation Art B Squadron. Our our

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Speaker 1: task was the to a siege the Richmond Hill prison

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Speaker 1: and rescue all the political prisoners that were being held there. Um,

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Speaker 1: we you know, we feared that the political prisoners maybe

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Speaker 1: you know, shot or something might happen to them. So

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Speaker 1: that's what our mission was, and that was a priority

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Speaker 1: mission for Delta was the prison. And we were supposed

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Speaker 1: to assault the prison just before first light, but as

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Speaker 1: things got delayed and delayed and the operation slowed down.

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Speaker 1: It was daylight one week, you know, flew across the

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Speaker 1: ocean the Caribbean and hit the shores of Grenada. We

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Speaker 1: were monitoring the radio on Grenada and they had already

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Speaker 1: announced even before we hit the shore that the invasion

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Speaker 1: of Grenada has begun. To grab your rifles and meet

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Speaker 1: the Americans at the beach. Um. So when we arrived

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Speaker 1: over the beach, there was a lot of people down

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Speaker 1: below had gathered on the beach. Some were waving, and

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Speaker 1: in somewhere you could hear a pop pop, you know,

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Speaker 1: taking a shot at us. As we continued on to

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Speaker 1: the prison, we had eight helicopters in our formation, the

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Speaker 1: black Hawks, and this was the first combat use of

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Speaker 1: black Hawks, and as we got near our destination, the

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Speaker 1: last two helicopters seven and eight peeled off. They carried

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Speaker 1: the Navy, the Sealed Seal Team six and their mission

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Speaker 1: was to rescue the governor General on Grenada Guy his

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Speaker 1: last name I think of Scoons, and they were to

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Speaker 1: rescue him. He was being under house arrest in his residence.

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Speaker 1: So then we have six helicopters going in and the

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Speaker 1: prison appeared down below us and are I was in

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Speaker 1: helicopter number five. Our mission was just to land outside

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Speaker 1: the prison fast rope down and this would be the

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Speaker 1: first fast rope operation in combat. And we had we

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Speaker 1: had hundred foot fast ropes and there was a guard

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Speaker 1: barracks outside the prison and we were to take control

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Speaker 1: of the guard barracks. Um so. But as we approached

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Speaker 1: the prison, there was another ridge that was higher up

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Speaker 1: than us, and it was Fort Frederick, and uh, immediately

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Speaker 1: we became under fire. At Fort Frederick, they had z

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Speaker 1: s U twenty three's uh, they didn't have the radar

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Speaker 1: system on, so they were manually fired um so in

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Speaker 1: twelve point seven caliber and seven point six too. So

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Speaker 1: we immediately we're taking twenty three millimeter rounds and and

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Speaker 1: getting pretty well shot up. And so as we attempted

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Speaker 1: to assault the prison, the fire became too attempts, like

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Speaker 1: our door gunner on the left side was immediately shot

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Speaker 1: and he was incapacitated and couldn't return fire. And all

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Speaker 1: we had was assault weapons. And so as we hovered

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Speaker 1: there waiting to get out on the ground to drop

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Speaker 1: the fast ropes and everything, the helicopters just pulled off site.

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Speaker 1: Helicopter four, the one that was in front of us,

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Speaker 1: the pilot was mortally wounded and they crashed into the jungle.

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Speaker 1: So then we went away, and then we circled back

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Speaker 1: around and tried it for a second time, and there

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Speaker 1: was no Mike. Just sorry to interrupt, but there was

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Speaker 1: no air support that could have suppressed the z s

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Speaker 1: U twenty three or anything like that. I don't know

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Speaker 1: why there was no air support, Why we did not

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Speaker 1: have jets on the standby to call in to suppress

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Speaker 1: the fire. Um, I don't know why we didn't have

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Speaker 1: an A C one thirty gun ship. I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: I've never knew the answer to that question. Um, they

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Speaker 1: were prepared for us, they knew we were coming. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it was no surprise. And uh, yeah, I don't I

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Speaker 1: can't answer why So you had to peel off your

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Speaker 1: your bird made it peeled off and uh and then

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Speaker 1: what happened, Well, then we went in for this second time,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I'm thinking, wow, it was pretty intense

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Speaker 1: the first time, and it reminded me of the charge

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Speaker 1: of the light Brigade, you know, the in the Carimean War,

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Speaker 1: I think it was eighteen fifty four when the light

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Speaker 1: Brigade got their orders was misunderstood and they charged the

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Speaker 1: Russian Turkey position and through all the cannons and everything.

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Speaker 1: And then they as they went through the cannons, then

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Speaker 1: they went beyond the cannons. Then they turned around and

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Speaker 1: went back out and had to go back through that.

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Speaker 1: And so it reminded me of the charge of the

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Speaker 1: light Brigade when we went in for the second time,

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Speaker 1: and again we attempted to get the helicopters down so

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Speaker 1: we can faster rope in, and the pilots pulled off

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Speaker 1: the target. Uh. So we landed near the airfield, uh

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Speaker 1: Salina's airfield on a uh a piece of high ground

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Speaker 1: overlooking the airfield, and we watched the rangers parachute in

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Speaker 1: while we were on that hill. And then they checked

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Speaker 1: all the helicopters and we only had one helicopter that

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Speaker 1: was fliable, so we put two teams. My team and

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Speaker 1: another team got on that helicopter and then we went

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Speaker 1: to the site of the crashed helicopter to secure it,

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Speaker 1: and then a medic a medevac helicopter came in off

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Speaker 1: one of the ships that was outside and pulled out

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Speaker 1: the people that were injured in that crash, and of

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Speaker 1: course the pilot was mortally wounded. He was dead. Co

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Speaker 1: pilot suffered gunshot wounds. UM, everybody and crash helicopter was

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Speaker 1: pretty well busted up. Uh. One of our guys that

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Speaker 1: was in the helicopter was had to be medically discharged

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Speaker 1: later because of his injuries. And so once we pulled

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Speaker 1: them out uh and got him, then we went out

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Speaker 1: to the aircraft. Aircraft it was a frigate out there

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Speaker 1: called the U. S. S. Moss Burger, and then we

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Speaker 1: dropped all of our wounded off on the Navy ship

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Speaker 1: that was out there, and we were you know, we

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Speaker 1: still had all of our grenades, guns and everything, and boy,

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Speaker 1: when we landed on those ships, they were just going crazy.

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Speaker 1: So as we were moving our wounded to where they

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Speaker 1: needed to go, they had people Navy people following us

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Speaker 1: because we had you know, live ammunition. The Navy kind

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Speaker 1: of freaks out on that, and uh, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what that semen would have done. Uh. But then we

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Speaker 1: went back to the airfield and then we were saying

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Speaker 1: if we would have to do a ground to sault

377
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Speaker 1: on the prison. And by that time we got word

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Speaker 1: that they freed all the political opened the gates and

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Speaker 1: let all the political prisoners out, so that the guards

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Speaker 1: had actually released them. Yeah, they were released. I think

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Speaker 1: they used up all their ammal and saw no reason

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Speaker 1: to keep them. Uh. So, yeah, that's what happened in

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Speaker 1: Grenada and for us, and that was the end of

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Speaker 1: the Delta mission. To follow up Delta missions never happened. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Later on that day we flew out at the airfield,

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Speaker 1: Rangers took the airfield and that was the end for us.

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Speaker 1: What was the follow up mission that you get we're

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Speaker 1: maybe anticipating, Well, there was another fort? Uh Fort Rupert,

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Speaker 1: There was a fort in that A squadrons mission was

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Speaker 1: to capture that fort. But they were going to be

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Speaker 1: using our helicopters and we they helicopters are all shot up.

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Speaker 1: Now I want to say about those black Hawks, had

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Speaker 1: we had six Huey helicopters like in Vietnam there would

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Speaker 1: have been six Huey helicopters in the jungle. Those those

395
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Speaker 1: black Hawks took a beating that Uh. They had self

396
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Speaker 1: sealing tanks. Um, you know, taking twenty three millimeter around. Uh,

397
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Speaker 1: let's see. It was Major Boykin who was later Lieutenant

398
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Speaker 1: General Boykin. He had a Sackcom radio on his back.

399
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Speaker 1: He took a twenty three millimeter around in the Sackcom

400
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: radio and that took most of the the blast. He

401
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: did lose some of his muscle in one in his arm,

402
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Speaker 1: but that was kind of the fire that we were taking. Wow.

403
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Speaker 1: So and correct me if I'm wrong. But was one

404
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Speaker 1: sixty if had not been fully stood up yet at

405
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Speaker 1: this point, that was the one sixty crew that it was.

406
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Speaker 1: First they one sixty became operational I think in October

407
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Speaker 1: of nineteen and was October nineteen eight three. So we

408
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: had actually been working with tax Force one sixty a

409
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Speaker 1: little bit prior to Grenada. Okay, okay, makes sense? Um okay.

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Speaker 1: So then after Grenada, I you know, like you said,

411
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Speaker 1: there's a lot of lessons learned. It led to the uh,

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Speaker 1: the nun Amendment Nichols Nichols gold Water, which was part

413
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Speaker 1: of the Nicols Goldwater act Um. And so I guess

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Speaker 1: it's it's your story, Mike. So what what what what

415
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Speaker 1: happened after this? I mean, I know for a lot

416
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Speaker 1: of Americans, there's still this perception that during this time

417
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Speaker 1: period there wasn't a much going on. But you know,

418
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Speaker 1: as you and I know, um, there were other things

419
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: happening around the world, and you guys stayed quite busy.

420
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: Right while Beirute took place in October, the the truck

421
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: bombing there at the Marine barracks took place about the

422
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Speaker 1: same time. I think that was October twenty and our

423
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Speaker 1: invasion was October I believe I got the dates correct,

424
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Speaker 1: So we had Beirut was going on, and uh yeah, um,

425
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Speaker 1: but yeah, I just trying to think of anything else

426
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: in about Grenada that I want to say, But you know,

427
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: it was you know, the Rangers mission too was to

428
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: not only sees the airfield. The Ranger mission was to

429
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: the medical students too. There was American and to to

430
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: the public. Um. That was the primary focus of of

431
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: why we went to Grenada to provent, to say, you know,

432
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: protect those American medical students. But you know, I think

433
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: the real reason was to re establish a democracy in Grenada,

434
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: not for it not to be a puppet UH country

435
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: for Cuba and Soviet Union. There was the Cubans were there.

436
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: Why the was going on? They were building, uh, expanding

437
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: the runway, they were making hangars for the mega aircraft

438
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: to be closer to the United States. Um, there was

439
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: Cuban It was Cuban engineers building the airfield. But these

440
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 1: guys were like combat engineers. They were previously had served

441
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: in Angola, so they were veterans. And so when they

442
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: got win that we were going to invade the island, UM,

443
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: they they stood up with the Grenadians to oppose us.

444
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: And whenever we look at these types of things, I mean,

445
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: I think we have to look at it is sort

446
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: of the the currents of the time and the strategic

447
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: pieces that we're moving in. Three. As you mentioned Angola

448
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: and the Cubans who had fought in the Angola conflict.

449
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: That was the CIA's second largest covert operation was to

450
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: thwart those communists in Angola. The largest was the paramilitary

451
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: operation in Afghanistan, which we spoke about with Jack Divine,

452
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: who was intimately involved in that UM and then Granadic

453
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: pops up, and that would have been another place where

454
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: the communist forces could have projected themselves around the Caribbean.

455
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: And of course if you have it's an important geo

456
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: strategic foothold that you could potentially have in the Caribbean

457
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: and reach out with helicopters and fighter jets to the

458
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: various islands in Central America's well mm hmm, UM. There

459
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: are obviously some important reforms made UM, and you know

460
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: Special Operations Command was created UM for you. I mean,

461
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: what what came next? I mean, I think we talked

462
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: a little bit in the past about UM some of

463
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: the interesting training exercises that you participated in. UM. But

464
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: also were you involved in UH in Beirut or any

465
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: of the stuff going on in Central America at the time. No,

466
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: I personally was not. We did have a group of

467
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: folks that were involved in part of the unit in

468
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: Central America and South America with the drug cartels, but

469
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: these were our guys that were of Hispanic origin. UH

470
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: could speak Spanish. UH. The only thing I did was

471
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: I went to Ecuador and worked with their national police

472
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: or counter terrorists team in e a door. We did

473
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: an exercise for them, and while they did conducted the exercise,

474
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: we evaluated their techniques and then post exercise, we critiqued

475
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: what they did right, what they did wrong, where their

476
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: weak areas, where they needed training. UH did a lot

477
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: of that stuff. We I went to Korea. We we evaluate,

478
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: did the same thing. We did joint training with the

479
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: Korean counter terrorists UH unit there uh seven seven seven

480
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: uh and UH I worked with the their E O

481
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: D folks Explosive ordinance disposal folks uh Dennis Wolf and

482
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: I worked with them and taught them how to attack

483
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: and work on I E D s and UH. So

484
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: we did a lot of the different types of training.

485
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: That's what mainly I was evolved in. Up and tell.

486
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: Let's see what else happened some of the things that happened. Uh, well,

487
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: I was looking at my notes here and uh deserts storm.

488
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: Uh Yeah. In April of eighty two, we went to

489
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: Hi had hijacking in honduras Um. They took a small

490
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: Dash seven aircraft. They had some Americans on board and

491
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: terrorist group held a hostage there. So we flew in

492
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: with a small group and they had supposedly two I

493
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: E D s on board the aircraft, and they negotiated

494
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 1: with the Hondurans and they and what they did. They

495
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: provided them with another aircraft to go to Cuba, and

496
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: but the condition was they had to leave all their

497
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: explosives behind. So when they moved to the other aircraft,

498
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: then I was tasked to go on board and to

499
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: see if they left her explosives behind. And and their

500
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: explosives were just basically nitroglysten based dynamite um they were

501
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: going to if somebody assaulted assaulted the aircraft, they would

502
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: just hand well, it was like a suicide type device

503
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: that they had if we would assault the aircraft. So

504
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: I went on board. I could find only one explosive

505
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: device up front and then disposedly. There was one in

506
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: the back of the airplane in a bag. I searched,

507
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: couldn't find it. So I told him that radio told

508
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: him I found one explosive device, couldn't find the second one,

509
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: and the Terras said they only had one explosive device.

510
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: They lied about the second one. So I says, well,

511
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: I can't find it, So so that was it. But

512
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: then they wouldn't let the terrorists leave on that plane

513
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: and to go to Cuba, and they had the runway

514
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: blocked off with fire trucks and such until we just

515
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: rendered safe the bomb. And he still had control of

516
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: the hostages at this point. Yes, I still had control

517
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: of the hostages on board the other aircraft, but they

518
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: had the runway blocked off. So I met with General Alvarez,

519
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: he's head of the Honduran Army. He had two of

520
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: his bomb texts and I talked to them through an interpreter.

521
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: They only spoke Spanish, and I asked him if they

522
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 1: wanted to render safe the bomb or they wanted me

523
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: to do that, and they wanted to render it safe

524
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: to me and to remove it from the aircraft. And

525
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: I asked him, a wow, do you need my technical

526
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: help and they said yeah. So I took him aboard

527
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: the aircraft, showed them the bomb, explained how the bomb

528
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: worked and stuff, and I asked them through an interpreter,

529
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: what was their plan, what was their procedure they're going

530
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: to do for the bomb. Well, they first, we're going

531
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: to hit it with what's called it at the time,

532
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: it had a j rod. It's a what a little

533
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: shoots a projectile of water to disrupt the bomb and

534
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: to remove the batteries from the the bomb. But I

535
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: told them that you don't want to use a j

536
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: rod when you nitro glysten based dynamite because if that

537
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: water hits the dynamite that pouls of water, it will

538
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: detonate the dynamite. You might as well just blow it

539
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: up in the airplane. Then they said, well, we'll put

540
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: on a bomb suit and carry it out, and I said, well,

541
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: you don't really need to do that, So I said,

542
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: we can remotely remove this bomb. So I showed them

543
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: how you can set up some rope lines and pulleys,

544
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 1: and we remotely removed the bomb and carried out into

545
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: a ditch from the aircraft. And then I let him

546
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: hit it with her j rod and it went up. No,

547
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: I didn't because we aimed it really good. So we

548
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: just took out the batteries and and then I told

549
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: them that, you know, of course, you have to search

550
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: each stick of dynamite for a secondary device like chemical

551
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: delay pencil that could be implanted in there. So it

552
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: took about twice as long to do this, but it

553
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: was a good training exercise for the Hondurans. Absolutely, yeah.

554
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: And after the bomb was neutralized, where the hostages released. Yeah,

555
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: hassies released the terrorists took off to Cuba, and that

556
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: was the end of it. That was our involvement in

557
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: that one. And see, another thing I was involved in

558
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: prior to Desert Storm was the Atlanta prison riot in um.

559
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: Let's see, I was it took place in November of

560
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: n had the Cubans rioted in the land at prison

561
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: they were these where Castro had opened up. There was

562
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: the marian Anna boat people. Castro had opened up his

563
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: prisons and his insane asylums, you know, and gave them

564
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: boats and let him go to them to America. He was,

565
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: you know, basically Jimmy Carter President Jimmy Carter. He was

566
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: just throwing this in his human rights thing in his face.

567
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: And and so we had all these uh, criminals and

568
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: criminally insane people that were being held in our prisons

569
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: both at Oakdale Oakdale Louisiana prison we had the riot

570
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 1: was going on at the same time, so that they

571
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: were because it was talking about sending them back to Cuba.

572
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. I don't know if you remember any

573
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: of that. So, Uh, the President Reagan was in president

574
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: at the time. Uh, the FBI needed help because of

575
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: the two prisons, and so they waived posse kamatatas and

576
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: so we were allowed to go into the Atlanta prison

577
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 1: work with the FBI and uh this FBI swats because

578
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: the FBI the HRT was at the Oakdale prison and

579
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: the FBI swats did not have any breaching capability. They

580
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: couldn't use explosives, it was forbidden for them. And so

581
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 1: we were there breachers are sniper observers, set up observation post.

582
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: We had our comms people there, we had our medic

583
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: people there. So but basically we were there to support

584
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: the FBI SWAT teams during that prison riot. And so

585
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,439
Speaker 1: did you build the breaching charges and things like that?

586
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: We did we as as we built the breaching charges

587
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: to breach through the prison jail cells and doors and stuff.

588
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: And of course they took over the machine shop. The

589
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: prisoners did, and they had welders and so they were

590
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: you could hear the grinding wheels going where they were

591
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: making steels, you know, shanks they were taking. They were

592
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: putting their were welding doors and putting metal on doors

593
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: to reinforce doors. So they were just making it hard

594
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: for us to get in. And as time went on

595
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: and Uh. The biggest mistake that the prisoners made the

596
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: Cubans there was they let everybody out of their jail cells.

597
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: There was a jail cell block called the Block. E

598
00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: block had the the hardened criminals, the very worst of

599
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: the worst, you know, before we had the super max prisons.

600
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,919
Speaker 1: And so they let everybody out of the block. And

601
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: there was this one guy and his name was Silverstein.

602
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 1: And this guy, he was an Area Nation guy, big guy.

603
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: All he did in prison was work out. He'd do

604
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: it like handstand push ups, and and he had killed people.

605
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: He had killed, I think a prison guard. He had

606
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: killed other prisoners. So he's in there for life. He's

607
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: just he's just a bad And we were told that

608
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: if he approached us, if he did not obey what

609
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: we told him, that his hands were considered lethal weapons

610
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,399
Speaker 1: and that we could use We were authorized to use

611
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: deadly force on him. What we were worried is that

612
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: this guy Silverstein was gonna take revenge on some of

613
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: the guards that were held hostages, and that he might

614
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: kill some of those guards that he had bad blood with.

615
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: And we told the Cubans through the negotiators that if

616
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: anything happened to those hostages. You guys were responsible, and

617
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: Silverstein did anything to those guys that that's you know,

618
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: that's the end of any negotiation. So it was funny

619
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: is the Cubans through a party, they invited Silverstein to

620
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: the party. They made that they were making their own

621
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: alcohol in there in the prison, and they put they

622
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: had they had the medical clinic. They put some drugs

623
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: in his drink and they drugged him, jumped him, tied

624
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: him up, and brought him to the front gate and

625
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: gave him to us. That was quite in that's effective

626
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: negotiating right there. Yeah, yeah, because he was just causing

627
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: trouble in there. But eventually they reached a settlement and

628
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: we did not have to assault the prison. Was that

629
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: a relief. Yeah. The f ai h r T did

630
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: the oak Oakdale, they did take down at Oakdale, but

631
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: land of prison that was negotiated. So some of the

632
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 1: missions that we did and one of the few times

633
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: the present wave posse komitatis and poss commatas was set up.

634
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: You know that law after the Civil War that you

635
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: couldn't use federal troops, you know, like you couldn't deputize

636
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: federal troops like a sheriff couldn't go to the army

637
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 1: there and say, all you guys now are my deputies.

638
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: And so that's what posse committaties is. When I was

639
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: writing about UM, about the formation of Blue Light and

640
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: how Delta came about, and and we had talked a

641
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: little bit about that too when I wrote that article,

642
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: it was interesting that how the Green Berets, how special

643
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: forces prior to all of this in the seventies had

644
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: been called up at one point UM to begin mission

645
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: rehearsals because um, some black militants took over several buildings

646
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 1: in Washington, d c UM and UH, and that would

647
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: have been one of those cases where they would have

648
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 1: had to waive that so that the US military could

649
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: operate on American soil. Thankfully, we don't really need that

650
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: anymore because we have units like HRT, right. But it's

651
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 1: interesting how all of that and you can see how

652
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: it developed over time and how these institutions developed and

653
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: we created these new capabilities. Well, like the president would

654
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: have to you know, you can use National Guard to

655
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: protect the borders, and that's what they're talking about. But

656
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: Jude to use the regular army, he would have to

657
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 1: and he has the power to to waive postcommatatus and

658
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a good thing. No, No, neither

659
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: do I. UM. Well, a lot of people that also

660
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: don't understand that we have two National Guard groups that

661
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: are special special forces groups in the National Guard, and

662
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: uh it's completely legal and okay for them to UM

663
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: work domestically. They do UM hurricane relief things like that,

664
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: UM and they like after a hurricane Katrina for instance,

665
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 1: And those guys have done a lot of good work

666
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: over the years. Right, Yeah, do you want to start

667
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 1: going into the Gulf War a little bit? Then? Yeah,

668
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: I know we're jumping ahead. Unless there's something else you

669
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: want to go to the Gulf War. It's a long

670
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: it's a long career. Yeah. During the our mission during

671
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: the Gulf War, UM, we had a joint kind of

672
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: a joint shared mission with the British s A S.

673
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: And we were primarily doing the scud hunting missions. So

674
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:54,479
Speaker 1: we divided Iran, uh excuse me, Iraq up into two

675
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: sectors and the British s A S would take the

676
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: one sector. We had the other sector and we would

677
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: be searching for scud missiles. Once we found scud missiles,

678
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: then we would call in air support and take out

679
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 1: the scud missile. So that was our primary focused during

680
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: Desert Storm. Um My, my particular, I was not directly

681
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: involved in that. Uh I was tasked too. There was

682
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: a command and control bunker called Taji number two. It

683
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: was a two story cut and cover facility, and that

684
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: was the commanding control for the Iraqi forces and they

685
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: had the Air Force had dropped sixty Blue one O

686
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: nine's on that bunker. Blue one O nine is a

687
00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: special two thousand pound bomb that is hardened steel, and

688
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: that at that time that that was our penetrator bomb

689
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: that we had in our arsenal and they took up

690
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: sixty of them on this bunker and did no damage

691
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: to it. And uh So, in all theory, a bunker

692
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: like that and would have been taken out with with

693
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 1: a nuke like a B sixty one for example, But

694
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: in today's we're not going to be used using a nuke,

695
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: So we did not have a conventional bomb to take

696
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: out that bunker. And so we were planning a ground

697
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: attack be a Ranger battalion and then there would be

698
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: just two of us from Delta would be attached to

699
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: the Rangers. And another breacher and myself. We would train

700
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: a breacher, a ranger breaching team to go in. And

701
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: there was two big big blast doors, and one team

702
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: would take one blast door, another team would take the

703
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: other blast door. We would breach it. We would assault

704
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: it with the rangers and UH then once we gained

705
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: entry to it, then we would destroy it with a

706
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 1: lot of explosives. So I was involved in that plan

707
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: Tachi number two, and so I had to brief General

708
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: Steiner on how we were going to do that. We

709
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: knew a lot about the bunker. We watched it be

710
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: built from satellite UM. We knew the company that there

711
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: was a Swiss company that helped build it. They didn't

712
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: finish it. The Iraqis finished it themselves, but the Swiss

713
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 1: company helped build it. So we knew a lot about it.

714
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: So I briefed General Steiner and I told General Steiner,

715
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: if we rolled back time to we could have destroyed

716
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: that bunker. But here it is one and we can't

717
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: take the bunker out because we went that type of

718
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: target would be a nuclear target are set. We did

719
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: not have it come in that. We had several things

720
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 1: going for us. We had the British two pound Grand

721
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: Slam bomb. There was a twelve thousand pound tall Boy

722
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: bomb that we used to take out submarine pins. The

723
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: Brits did with their Lancaster bombers took out submarine pins

724
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: with ten you know, it's like ten meters of concrete. Uh.

725
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: These bombs would go through. They took out aqua ducks,

726
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: they took out railroad tunnels. Uh. And they also used

727
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: the some of the bombs on some of the damns.

728
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: They also had another Damn buster bomb, but we had

729
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 1: the capability. And we also later on after World War Two,

730
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: we had a T twelve bomb would was forty three

731
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: thousand pound bomb. And you know they saying that Moab

732
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: bomb was the biggest bomb. Well, the T twelve was

733
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: the biggest bomb, forty three thousand pound bomb. And I said,

734
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: I guess it's right. I mean we were told the

735
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: Moab was right. Well, yeah, that's what news people do, uh,

736
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 1: they sensationalized thing. But we had the T twelve and

737
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: I told General Steiner, we actually have to tweet T

738
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: twelve bombs around. There's one in Florida at the Armam

739
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 1: Armam And Museum, Egglin Air Force Base, and at that time.

740
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: The other T twelve was at Aberdeen im proving grounds.

741
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: I said, well, we could fill those up with explosives

742
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: and uh and drop them. So anyway we're gonna do

743
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: the ground attack. But as a sideline this, they developed

744
00:48:52,400 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: the GBU, which was the sodomizer, the GB twenty UM.

745
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: I got an officer at one of the arsenals in

746
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 1: New York, I trying to think which arsenal. They had

747
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of eight inch gun barrels setting around, and

748
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: this officer looked at those gun barrels and said, you know,

749
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: we could pack those full of those eight inch artillery

750
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: barrels full of explosives, put a noose cap on it,

751
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: put some tailfins on it, put a guidance system on it,

752
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 1: and we could use one of those those are eight

753
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: inch gun barrels to take that bunker out. So that's

754
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: what they did and why it's called GPU is it

755
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: took twenty eight days from the time it was started

756
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: until they dropped the first test bomb out at Egglin

757
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 1: twenty eight days, and that's remarkable time. So they built

758
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: they they got two of these bombs and they put

759
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: them on one bomb on two f They had two

760
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: F one eleven's out of England. So they put it

761
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: one of these bombs on one of the F on

762
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: eleven wings, and of course it weighed a little over

763
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: four thousand pound, so they had to put to two

764
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: tho pound bombs on the other side to balance it out.

765
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: So they had two half one elevens with two with

766
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,479
Speaker 1: each carrying a GPU. And this is on the last

767
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 1: day of the war. So as the first half of

768
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: one eleven comes around and goes and drops its bomb, uh,

769
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: it misses the target. The first bomb misses, so he

770
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: got only one bomb left. Second half one eleven comes

771
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: around and it launches it and it hits top dead center.

772
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: I saw the video footage and you can see the

773
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: bomb goes through the top of the bunker and then

774
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: you can see those two bomb blast doors just shoot

775
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: out into the desert and totally destroy that. And that

776
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: was on the last day of the war. So so

777
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: they're what my mission? So, were you still prepared for

778
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: the ground assault if that if that bomb had missed, Well,

779
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: that was the last day of the we were, we

780
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: were prepping up for it, but everything kind of slowed down,

781
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: So I thought, you know, I didn't know what was

782
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: going on. You know, I didn't know nothing at the

783
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: time about the g BU, so they were probably counting

784
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 1: on that and so but yeah, that would have been

785
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: a great mission, but we never were able to execute

786
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: it and think to take it out. And this is

787
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: just an interesting aside. You mentioned the other mission that

788
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: the S A S and Delta had at Scutt Alley

789
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: and Scud Boulevard, and just by happenstance, I actually ended

790
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 1: up having dinner with the gentleman who commanded the S

791
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: A S at that time, the British officer, and um

792
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: I asked him if the S A S had destroyed

793
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 1: any scud launchers and he said no. Um, but you know,

794
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,959
Speaker 1: the point of it was related to deny the enemy

795
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: freedom of movement and that area, which they did succeed in.

796
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to ask you, Mike, since you

797
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: know you were involved in or at least present in

798
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 1: the unit at the time. UM, you know what kind

799
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: of that after action report was for the unit from

800
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: their experience scott hunting. You know, I do not know, Uh,

801
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 1: good question, Yeah, I don't know what we you know,

802
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: we just you know, developed our our land reconnaissance techniques

803
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. We had three We had three

804
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: fatalities in the unit during desert storm, the helicopter crash,

805
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: that helicopter crash at our are. What had happened is

806
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 1: one of our vehicles ran into a royal a big

807
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 1: ditch and Pat Hurley um injured his back and so

808
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: we so they called in a medivac helic coopter to

809
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: get Pad out and Otto Clark and Rod Rodriguez, where

810
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 1: two medics were in that helicopter. They flew out into Iraq,

811
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 1: picked Pad up and they were flying back to where

812
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: we were working out at our are in Saudi Arabia,

813
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: and Uh, there was a dust storm as they approached

814
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: our our Uh couldn't see. There's just this one hill

815
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: not very far from the from the the airstrip there,

816
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: and the helicopter ran into that hill and everybody on

817
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: the helicopter were killed. So that was our three fatalities

818
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: from the unit. Of course they the helicopter crew too.

819
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: That's horrible. Yeah. I remember many years ago now we

820
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 1: interviewed Dale Comstock and I remember him talking about and

821
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 1: being out there and uh, and I believe he actually

822
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 1: saw the helicopter go down way off in the distance.

823
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: But it's sad story. Yeah, yeah, I had. My only

824
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: task was all the ammunition on a helicopter. I helped

825
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: destroy it and we just blew it up. And then

826
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 1: coming home from the Gulf War, must have you all

827
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: had already had quite a career at that point. Yeah,

828
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: well then let's see what my next one was. The

829
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 1: next one would have been hating the uphold democracy. And

830
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 1: so we were because the Haitian government, we decided that

831
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 1: we would do an invasion and to restore the democratic government.

832
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: And so this time we were gonna be operating out

833
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 1: of a aircraft carrier, the USS America. We would have

834
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: a float forwards staging base on the aircraft carrier, and

835
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: uh so it was I think it was Joint Task

836
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: Force one eight. And so we got on board at

837
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 1: Norfolk the carrier, and then when we got out off Georgia,

838
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 1: Helicopter Task Force one sixty helicopters then flew on the carrier.

839
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 1: We had we had couple two of the seal teams

840
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,959
Speaker 1: on board. We had a full ranger battalion on board

841
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: the aircraft carrier from one battalion. We had a company

842
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: from a second battalion. We had a I think a

843
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: platoon from another Ranger battalion. Um and uh so we

844
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,760
Speaker 1: had Task Force Brown, which was TAST one sixty and

845
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 1: uh that was mainly what we were composed of. So

846
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: it would be a mainly a ranger seal team assault

847
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 1: on different targets in Granada, I mean Grenadi and Haiti.

848
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: This is Haiti. So and that was called Operation Uphold Democracy.

849
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 1: And so we went off Haiti. And while we were

850
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 1: getting ready to assault do training and everything. Uh, former

851
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: President Jimmy Carter a few other people uh went into

852
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: Haiti and and and negotiated a peaceful turnover. But it

853
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 1: was close at the time. We called everybody up on deck,

854
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: we started loading the helicopters and we were just getting

855
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: ready to launch when we were told that it would

856
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: be a peaceful turnover. So in when we went in

857
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: to occupy Haiti, it was under peaceful conditions. UM. So

858
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: that was that. I did hear some stories from some

859
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: rangers and also I believe there's some O. D A's

860
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: that were in Haiti patrol doing kind of like some

861
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: presence patrols and security patrols. But nothing ever really happened

862
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: as far as you know. UM, confrontations, no that went,

863
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: that went peaceful, but we were all prepared to do that.

864
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: And then I was unique that we were operating off

865
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: aircraft carrier for the first time. And uh and so

866
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: now they've got actually built special naval ships to operate

867
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 1: as a float forwards staging basis. So yeah, now it's

868
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: more common. Yeah. I was interesting working with the Navy.

869
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: I worked the flight deck. Uh. I wore white jersey,

870
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: and I was up there with as a safety on

871
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: the flight deck during air operations, making sure that our

872
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: guys followed all the safety procedures. Had you know, we're

873
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: in the correct uniform, had their goggles, helmets, UH, life jackets,

874
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 1: and just doing certain things on an aircraft carrier. And

875
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: uh and we had to learn how to operate on

876
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: aircraft carrier. We had to. We were like the air

877
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: crew on an aircraft carrier. We also had different duties

878
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 1: on on board the aircraft carrier. I was on the

879
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: aircraft carrier. I look at the dates I rode it

880
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: down here from eight September to October forty four days

881
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: that we spent on the aircraft carrier. So we had

882
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 1: to provide h kitchen police for the mess halls. We

883
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: had different functions of the aircraft carrier, we had to

884
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: supply people. I think I had to supply I was

885
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: the senior h enlisted for the Joint Task Force on

886
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 1: the aircraft carrier, so every time my phone rang, it

887
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: was always a problem to be solved. I had to

888
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: provide people for KPS UH twenty four hours a day.

889
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: And so the rangers said they would take the KP

890
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: duties if I didn't assign them any other duties. So

891
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: I gave them that. And then when we had to

892
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 1: do some unreps and the Seals said, but they will

893
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:40,919
Speaker 1: take the do the unreps help out with that. It's

894
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: an underway replenishment. In other words, while we were at sea,

895
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: another ship would come on board me and come next

896
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: to us, and they would launch helicopters back and forth

897
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: taking supplies like more food. Different provisions would then from

898
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: one ship to the other ship. And then we had

899
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 1: to move the was that cargo down into storage? You know,

900
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: you would take it, you know, they had the elevators,

901
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,960
Speaker 1: put it on the elevators, take it down, put it

902
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: into the hangar bay and then move the stuff. So

903
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: the Seals did all that stuff. They said, hey, we

904
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: will do this. So everybody, every all the different groups

905
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 1: I had on board took different did different duties on

906
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 1: board the aircraft. I would have get all the n

907
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 1: c o s together, senior n c o s from

908
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: the ship, all the chiefs and our senior n c

909
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: o s. Twice a day we would have meetings, uh,

910
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: solve any problems. It was like our guys were breaking

911
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: the weight weight room equipment and so I said, well,

912
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: you give me a list of all broken equipment and

913
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: now get it replaced. Uh. Our guys were checking wanting

914
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: to check out library books, and they said, wow, you

915
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 1: gotta If you could check out a library book, you

916
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 1: got to leave an I D card. And I says

917
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: that we we could be called up to go into

918
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 1: Haiti at any moment. We're not leaving I D cards.

919
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:14,959
Speaker 1: I'd guarantee that if a book is missing, I will

920
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 1: get it back. And I told the n c o S.

921
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 1: I says, eddie book is missing, I want it back.

922
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,959
Speaker 1: And uh, I just worked that. As as an Army

923
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: sergeant major, I mean you probably never thought you would

924
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: be pulling sea duty like this. I got C pay

925
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: to actually got C pay. I got we got eminent

926
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: danger pay always kid. That the only thing that we

927
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 1: were in imminent danger of his over eating. Uh, the

928
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: chief's miss you can't the chiefs. The chiefs have the

929
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: best mess on board the navy ship. The chiefs actually

930
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 1: add money to the chief's missed of the out of

931
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: their own pockets to support to buy food. I mean

932
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: the law the like king crab, giant king crab legs steaks. Um.

933
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: I mean we were eating pretty good. Uh. And um.

934
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 1: What was funny too, is you know most of the

935
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: except for the rangers, most of all the task Force

936
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 1: one sixty, all the seals, and uh, all the different

937
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: guys were heavy ranked. And in the Navy, of course,

938
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: the chiefs are E seven above, like in the exchange

939
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: on board the ship, the naval exchange. Um, yet they

940
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 1: only allowed i'll say five people in the naval the

941
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: Navy exchange on board the ship at a time, So

942
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: you have to wait outline. But if you're E seven

943
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: and above, you can cut the line and go into

944
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: the the the exchange on board the ship. So we're

945
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 1: all standing a huge line, were standing out the Navy exchange,

946
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: and this Navy chief walks up and he's couldn't cutting

947
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: front of us and we yell at him and says, hey,

948
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: get back in the back of the line. He says, well,

949
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm I'm an eat Navy chief. I go to the

950
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 1: front of the line. I says, we're all east sevens

951
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,439
Speaker 1: and above on this line, and uh, yeah, yeah, you're

952
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: in the back. That was kind of funny at this point.

953
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you mentioned you had a break in service,

954
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 1: but you must have been nearing your twenty years and

955
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 1: decided to stay in. Yes, I did. Um. Yeah, I

956
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: came in the army in nineteen six, one July and

957
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 1: I retired one January of nine nine. I did have

958
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 1: a two and a half year break after Vietnam. I

959
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: got out for two and then I just didn't like, uh,

960
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: you know, working in a factory, and that wasn't for

961
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 1: for me. I couldn't see the spending thirty years working

962
01:03:55,560 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 1: in a factory. We made metal stamping body parts for

963
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 1: a Ford cars, um different parts of the car, and

964
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: it was good pay, but that's not what I wanted

965
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: to do. So after Haiti, Um, well you were still around.

966
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 1: You were around then also when when Mongadishu happened, Yeah,

967
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 1: nineteen October nineteen three October three, Yeah, I was working

968
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 1: in at Fort Bragg at the JOCK, the Joint Operation

969
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: Command Center there, uh, during that operation, and we were

970
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 1: monitoring what was going on in Somalia, and that was

971
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:47,120
Speaker 1: our C Squadron was involved in that. And I lost

972
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: a real good friend, uh, Tim Martin, his nickname was Grizz.

973
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 1: He was in the one of the convoy uh that

974
01:04:55,840 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 1: we're going there to help um rest do the down

975
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 1: you know, black hawk down UM and he they took

976
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: an RPG seven in his vehicle and Tim, Tim was

977
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 1: mortally wounded there and he died on the way to Germany.

978
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: But yeah, that was so I wasn't not on ground

979
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 1: in Somalia, but I was working the jocke at Fort

980
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 1: Bragg backside. Yeah, and we just could just set and

981
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 1: watch and UM. On our last episode, we interviewed George

982
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:40,320
Speaker 1: Hand and he was talking about how he was not

983
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 1: in C Squadron, he was an A squadron, so he

984
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: was one of the guys who has sent his reinforcements

985
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 1: after the big battle. And he said, we got off

986
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 1: the airplane and we walked right into the memorial service

987
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 1: that they were already having out there on the tarmac. Yeah.

988
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: That was you know, always had always had a little

989
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: bit of hard feelings about how we executed, uh the

990
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 1: Mogadiche thing where that we operated right there at the

991
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 1: airfield and every movement that every time we did anything, uh,

992
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 1: there was people watching us. Um, and we should have

993
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 1: we should not have been on land there. We should

994
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 1: have we should have been on an aircraft carrier off

995
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 1: and then doing raids from off out at sea instead

996
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,920
Speaker 1: of being under all the eyes. So as soon as

997
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 1: the helicopters for launched, there was people reporting, okay, they're

998
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 1: launching helicopters just become too predictable. Um, you know daylight,

999
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 1: you know heavy a lot of RPG seven's uh doing

1000
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: daylight operations and uh you know it's just just catass

1001
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 1: surfie just waiting to happen. And so then after after

1002
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: that and after Haiti, Um, were you moved into more

1003
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: administrative positions up at the headquarters. Yeah, I'm in two.

1004
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 1: I actually I was still in Delta, but I worked

1005
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 1: from to nine. I worked at jay Sock. I started

1006
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 1: at Jay Sock. I worked for the first four years

1007
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: at jay Sock. I was the exercise sergeant major. We

1008
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 1: would have, uh, we would have quarterly exercises joint readiness

1009
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 1: exercises and uh I was in charge of setting you know,

1010
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 1: locating target sites for these exercises. Uh I used I

1011
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:54,840
Speaker 1: worked closely with the rangers during this exercise. So usually

1012
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: I would be at the ranger target making sure that

1013
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 1: everything was set up for them. We would have rangers

1014
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,240
Speaker 1: that were they opt for and uh I would just

1015
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 1: make sure of safety. Uh and uh so I did

1016
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: that for four years, was the Exercise Sarge Major at

1017
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: Joint Special Operations Command. And then they set up a

1018
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:27,440
Speaker 1: cell um uh called well the j three Special Plans

1019
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 1: and my uh I moved into a section called target

1020
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 1: Defeat of hardened Targets where we would like that Tadji

1021
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 1: number two. We had targets like that, how would we

1022
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: get in take them out you know and destroy the facilities.

1023
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 1: So we had did have a couple of things that

1024
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 1: we were planning up. One of them was Tarhuna. Tarhuna

1025
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 1: is located in Libya, UH just south of Tripoli and

1026
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:08,639
Speaker 1: a mountain range called Tarjuna, and Kadafi was building a

1027
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:13,759
Speaker 1: chemical production facility. Now he had Kadafi had to product

1028
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 1: production facility called Rafta which was a small uh open

1029
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 1: air facility where he can make nerve agent and mustard

1030
01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: agents and stuff like that. But he was wanting to

1031
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 1: build a bigger facility in the area called Tarjuna, and

1032
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:37,320
Speaker 1: he bought these two tunnel boring machines. You know, they're

1033
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 1: huge things that I think it comes from Switzerland, like

1034
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 1: the chunnel and from England to France. That's what they

1035
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 1: used was those tunnel boring machines. So he bought two

1036
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,840
Speaker 1: of these and he was he was digging into the

1037
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:56,560
Speaker 1: mountain there at Tarahuna and he was doing two parallel

1038
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,639
Speaker 1: tunnels and then he was going to do some side

1039
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: cross tunnels to connect the two tunnels. But his plan

1040
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 1: was to build an underground chemical production facility. Now the

1041
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:16,120
Speaker 1: cover for this was called the Great Man Made Water Project,

1042
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:21,600
Speaker 1: and he was publicly saying that he was creating a

1043
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 1: water reservoir that would supply water to triple A. So

1044
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 1: that's the cover. That's the reason he bought the tunnel

1045
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 1: boring machines. But we had intelligence that he that's he

1046
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 1: was making a chemical into underground production facility. So we

1047
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 1: started planning on that how would we actually take out

1048
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 1: that those two tunnels and we were planning on taking

1049
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 1: them out before he could put the chemical production facility

1050
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 1: install them. And so the rocket he was drilling in

1051
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 1: was is sandstone, very impermeable sandstone. So we went out

1052
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 1: and scoured the country for a light type of sandstone,

1053
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 1: and um, we found the sandstone at Sagoro, New Mexico,

1054
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 1: where New Mexico Tech is located at. They got the

1055
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:23,879
Speaker 1: right kind of rock there. And so we were actually

1056
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:28,720
Speaker 1: doing tests, just like coming up with a plan how

1057
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 1: to you know, a big huge tunnel, how you destroy

1058
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 1: a big huge tunnel. And we were going to try

1059
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 1: to do is implode the tunnel, and so we were

1060
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:41,679
Speaker 1: going to be drilling these We were going to actually

1061
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 1: be using drilling rigs, drilling alongside the concrete structure, do

1062
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 1: parallel holes along the structure, fill them with a slurry,

1063
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:58,679
Speaker 1: pumping slurry explosives, and actually implode the tunnel. So we

1064
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,720
Speaker 1: we did the planning, we did the testing and everything,

1065
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:04,160
Speaker 1: and we had to figure out how we're going to

1066
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 1: get all this equipment to Tarhuna and uh so, but

1067
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,680
Speaker 1: what happened was we never got any further than that.

1068
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:16,440
Speaker 1: We did a lot of planning, you know, for every

1069
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,920
Speaker 1: every ten plans that we were planning for operations were

1070
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:24,920
Speaker 1: planning for you know, maybe one intent would actually take place,

1071
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 1: and so it was publicly released to the world that

1072
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 1: that's what his intent was, a chemical production facility underground.

1073
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 1: So once that was re released to the pub to

1074
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 1: the world, he actually deceased operation. It didn't continue it anymore.

1075
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 1: So that was the end of that mission. But that's

1076
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 1: some of the things that we were working on. That's fascinating. UM.

1077
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 1: I mean, these are some great stories and I'm just

1078
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 1: endlessly fascinated by this stuff. UM. But before I do

1079
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 1: want to talk about your retirement and your life after service,

1080
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:12,679
Speaker 1: because I you know, I know you get to travel

1081
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 1: all around the country and you and your wife are

1082
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 1: definitely enjoying retirement. UM. Before we get there, is there

1083
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 1: anything else about you know, you know, chronologically speaking, anything

1084
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 1: in your military career that you wanted to talk about now?

1085
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 1: It's just been an interesting career, um. And then I

1086
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 1: decided to fully retire when in January of you know,

1087
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 1: and just travel with my wife. She's a photo journalist.

1088
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 1: So we're gone about half the year going you know

1089
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,080
Speaker 1: what we've since I've retired, We've been down to Antarctic

1090
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 1: a couple of times of South Georgia, Falkland's, We've been

1091
01:13:54,960 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 1: to Greenland, uh uh Svalbard, which is a group of

1092
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:06,000
Speaker 1: anolars worth of Norway, uh Glop of Coos, the Amazon.

1093
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: So we just do that kind of stuff. But I

1094
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 1: still work with the e O D community. I am

1095
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 1: the historian for the Vietnam e O D Veterans Chapter

1096
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:23,560
Speaker 1: of the National e O D Association, and I'm assistant

1097
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 1: historian for the National U D Association. I work with

1098
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 1: the the e O D Warrior Foundation doing research and

1099
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 1: the last three years we've added names to the EO

1100
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 1: D Memorial, which is located at Eglin Air Force Base

1101
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:43,880
Speaker 1: and that's where the e O D School is. We've

1102
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 1: added names from the past from World War Two to

1103
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 1: Vietnam that for some reason or another, we're not honored

1104
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 1: on the memorial this year. Well, May five is a Saturday,

1105
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 1: The first Saturday in May is recognized by Congress as

1106
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:07,160
Speaker 1: National e O D Day, first Saturday in May, and

1107
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 1: that's when we add the names to the memorial. And

1108
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 1: this year, the good news is we do not have

1109
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:17,720
Speaker 1: any names to add from two thousand and seventeen to

1110
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 1: the memorial. This is the first year I think since

1111
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 1: two thousand and one. We have not added names to

1112
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:31,599
Speaker 1: the memorial from current operations and UH, but we are

1113
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 1: adding six Army names and six Navy names to the

1114
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:40,599
Speaker 1: memorial from the past. For some reason, the what their

1115
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 1: deaths were unrecorded, UH, due to circumstances UM. And like

1116
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:53,000
Speaker 1: one Navy guy was washed, he was a Navy bomb disposed.

1117
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:56,519
Speaker 1: A guy was on a battleship and he was washed

1118
01:15:56,560 --> 01:16:01,080
Speaker 1: overboard from World War Two. So so he's being added

1119
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:05,559
Speaker 1: to the memorial. We have two from Vietnam. Two chemical

1120
01:16:06,240 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 1: officers from Vietnam. Were you d qualified that we're killed

1121
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:16,679
Speaker 1: in Vietnam? Added to the memorial? And one like Fred Smith.

1122
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:20,720
Speaker 1: I knew Fred. I worked with Fred. UH did a

1123
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 1: couple of disposal operations with Fred in nineteen sixty nine

1124
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:28,320
Speaker 1: out in the Rocky Mountain Arsenal in then the Denver

1125
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:32,640
Speaker 1: area and UH. Then we worked together in Vietnam. He

1126
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:34,560
Speaker 1: was a chemical officer and I was with the e

1127
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 1: O D Unit. And when I left Vietnam a month later,

1128
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:46,480
Speaker 1: they were dropping these ee CS dispensers from inside the helicopter.

1129
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 1: These are clusters of CS containers that are about the

1130
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:53,080
Speaker 1: size of a D cell battery and it holds a

1131
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 1: whole bunch of them, and they were just pushing them

1132
01:16:55,640 --> 01:17:00,679
Speaker 1: out of the helicopter down into a suspected uh uh

1133
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:04,840
Speaker 1: enemy bunker complex. And the whole purposes you drop the

1134
01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:08,719
Speaker 1: CS rounds down into a bunker complex from the air,

1135
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 1: and then you've got cobra gun ships and everything on standby,

1136
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:16,080
Speaker 1: so if you see any movement, you just take it,

1137
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 1: take it out. So the CS can canister actually functioned

1138
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:27,840
Speaker 1: on on board the helicopter home and so so helicopters

1139
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:32,680
Speaker 1: filling with CS, it's a pyrotechnique. There's fire, and my

1140
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: friend Captain Smith, he he pushed the whole canister out

1141
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:40,760
Speaker 1: of the helicopter and he went with the canister out

1142
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:45,360
Speaker 1: of the helicopters. He saved everybody's life. And I talked

1143
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:48,479
Speaker 1: to the pilot not too long ago, who was in

1144
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: the helicopter. He thinks about Fred every day that he

1145
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:57,679
Speaker 1: saved everybody on the helicopter's life, sacrificed his life. I'm

1146
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:00,200
Speaker 1: just curious, Mike, going back to what you said about

1147
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 1: the you know e O D Memorial. I I working

1148
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:05,760
Speaker 1: on this show. I often hear when we have snipers

1149
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:07,600
Speaker 1: on saying like when they're in a room with a

1150
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:11,240
Speaker 1: sniper of any era, they share a special bond that

1151
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:14,000
Speaker 1: they might not feel with fellow service members. I'm wondering

1152
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:16,639
Speaker 1: when you meet in EO D Tech, whether it's someone

1153
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 1: from your era or someone um, you know, more present

1154
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:22,760
Speaker 1: day service, is there a special bond that you feel

1155
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 1: is there with you know, just basically the life that

1156
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 1: you go through in such a risky job. Yeah, we do,

1157
01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 1: and we have the National YO D Association. We even

1158
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 1: have a few World War Two veterans that are still

1159
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:39,760
Speaker 1: from bomb disposed from World War Two that are still

1160
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:43,320
Speaker 1: members of the National EO D Association. We have Korean

1161
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:48,800
Speaker 1: War veterans and so, and it's members of bomb disposal

1162
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,880
Speaker 1: from all four services. E O D school all four

1163
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:55,599
Speaker 1: services go to the same basic EO D school and

1164
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:59,640
Speaker 1: then each service has specialized schools. So yeah, there is

1165
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 1: a bar on between all of us today and from

1166
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:08,000
Speaker 1: the World War Two veterans who started it all um

1167
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:16,720
Speaker 1: and today. Uh, let's on on one May, I'm being honored, Um,

1168
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:20,160
Speaker 1: I'm being inducted into the U. S. Army Ordinance Hall

1169
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 1: of Fame graduation on one May Fort Lea, Virginia, which

1170
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 1: is a great honor. There's only been fourteen. Since from

1171
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:32,680
Speaker 1: World War Two to the present, only fourteen e O

1172
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:35,639
Speaker 1: D people have been inducted into the Hall of Fame.

1173
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 1: So I go very honored to be inducted. The day

1174
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:42,760
Speaker 1: before the induction, I'm going to be talking to a

1175
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:46,920
Speaker 1: group of EA seven promotable e O D folks. There's

1176
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:50,240
Speaker 1: a class going through and going to just give a

1177
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:52,599
Speaker 1: talk to them. And then there also be a class

1178
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:56,839
Speaker 1: of captains e O D captains that will be talking

1179
01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:02,000
Speaker 1: to and just sharing. I want to here their experiences

1180
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:05,639
Speaker 1: and and just to be talking to them. So it's

1181
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: a great honor. I'm wondering what traits do you think

1182
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:11,040
Speaker 1: someone needs to have to go into this line of work,

1183
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:18,240
Speaker 1: in particular going to explosive or this disposal bomb disposal.

1184
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:25,599
Speaker 1: Um well, I'd always been interested in chemistry. Um And

1185
01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:28,799
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I sent away then popular science.

1186
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:34,920
Speaker 1: Back then life was different, rules were different. In popular science.

1187
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 1: They had you could send away into classified ads for

1188
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:47,280
Speaker 1: a hundred and one explosives and pyrotechnic formulas for So

1189
01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:49,760
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I sent away for that

1190
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:53,680
Speaker 1: and I built, you know, I made my homemade explosives

1191
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 1: and I would set it off in the backyard and

1192
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:03,640
Speaker 1: do that. I would, you know, make my own black powder. Uh.

1193
01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 1: I made this stuff called these idine. This I dine

1194
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:13,040
Speaker 1: explosives out of iodine crystals. You take well basically iodine

1195
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 1: crystals on hydroxide. You get a precipitate, you filter to

1196
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:21,600
Speaker 1: precipitate off. You get a paste. You can paste it on.

1197
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: It's like initiating explosive. Sometimes just dry and out. It

1198
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 1: actually detonates and it is a high explosive. And I'd

1199
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 1: make that and you know, and do that kind of stuff.

1200
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,360
Speaker 1: So I had an interest in that before I went

1201
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:42,680
Speaker 1: into the army, and I was offered that's where I

1202
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 1: wanted to go. But at that time, you could not

1203
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:49,719
Speaker 1: enlist an explosive Ordinance disposal. You had to go into

1204
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:53,640
Speaker 1: the army. You had to have a an MS, you

1205
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:56,240
Speaker 1: had to have an A I T before you could

1206
01:21:56,320 --> 01:22:01,280
Speaker 1: volunteer for e o D. So my recruiters said, go

1207
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 1: to Ammunition Renovation. It's the maintenance of ammunition. Go to

1208
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:08,200
Speaker 1: that school and that will prepare you for you D school.

1209
01:22:08,240 --> 01:22:11,599
Speaker 1: So I went to that school. We had to learn

1210
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 1: how to dispose of ammunition. So the e o D

1211
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:16,480
Speaker 1: came in to teach us how to dispose of ammunition.

1212
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:20,920
Speaker 1: Then they asked for volunteers, so I volunteered. I went

1213
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:26,000
Speaker 1: for an interview and during the interview, what you had

1214
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 1: to do was put on chemical suit, the M the

1215
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:34,519
Speaker 1: M three beautal rubber suit. We called it the brutal

1216
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 1: rubber suit. So you had to put on this chemical suit,

1217
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:40,200
Speaker 1: and you had to put on a M nine mask.

1218
01:22:41,320 --> 01:22:43,519
Speaker 1: M nine mask is a better mask than an M

1219
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:47,920
Speaker 1: seventeen mask that has just one little side filter, and

1220
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:50,479
Speaker 1: so it's hard to breathe out of this mask. So

1221
01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 1: you if you got claustrophobia, it would be instantly apparent.

1222
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:57,240
Speaker 1: So you have to put the suit on and you

1223
01:22:57,280 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 1: have to work for thirty minutes in the suit. That's

1224
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:03,840
Speaker 1: that was the initial evaluation to make sure that you

1225
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:07,640
Speaker 1: could go into the O D program. Wow, I just

1226
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: have to wonder now I'm starting to follow up on

1227
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:12,800
Speaker 1: that with you creating these explosives at home as a kid.

1228
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:15,640
Speaker 1: I mean, like nowadays, your parents would probably alert the

1229
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 1: authority and think you're gonna be the next like school shooter?

1230
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:21,800
Speaker 1: What what what do your parents think? I mean, I

1231
01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:23,640
Speaker 1: would think even back then it would be out of

1232
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:26,320
Speaker 1: the ordinary to be a kid making these explosives at home.

1233
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:33,760
Speaker 1: My parents, uh supported me. They tolerated it. I don't

1234
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:40,280
Speaker 1: think they fully understand stood what I was doing. But anyway, Yeah,

1235
01:23:40,360 --> 01:23:44,360
Speaker 1: that was a different time. That was before. That was

1236
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:50,040
Speaker 1: before seat belts, before car seats. There's a different world

1237
01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:54,639
Speaker 1: back then. As you look back now on your career

1238
01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 1: up until today, and I mean you got to serve

1239
01:23:57,120 --> 01:23:58,479
Speaker 1: in the e O D and be involved in the

1240
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:00,920
Speaker 1: e O D community for such a period of time

1241
01:24:01,479 --> 01:24:05,000
Speaker 1: and then you know, after two thousand and one, since then,

1242
01:24:05,080 --> 01:24:09,439
Speaker 1: our troops have faced a real prominent threat from I

1243
01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 1: E D s UM perhaps more so than you know

1244
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:16,519
Speaker 1: past conflicts. What are your thoughts about that, about the

1245
01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:21,560
Speaker 1: I D threat and how we can respond to it well.

1246
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:28,920
Speaker 1: Prior to the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, UM

1247
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:35,320
Speaker 1: EO D was prompt oriented, ordinance oriented. We concentrated on

1248
01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 1: ammunition disposal of ordinance and spent a little, very little

1249
01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:49,640
Speaker 1: time on improvised explosive devices. When the current conflict UM I,

1250
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:55,720
Speaker 1: the main emphasis was on improvised explosive devices. The school's

1251
01:24:55,880 --> 01:25:01,759
Speaker 1: emphasis wreas on improvised explosive devices. They kind of moved

1252
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:07,640
Speaker 1: away today, get away from ordinance, knowing ordinance understand you know,

1253
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:13,120
Speaker 1: really understanding ordinance today that they're actually shifting back in

1254
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:19,280
Speaker 1: the training, going back to more ordinance training, knowing the ordinance, uh,

1255
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:25,000
Speaker 1: because there's gonna be a lot of clean up uh involved. Um.

1256
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:27,760
Speaker 1: We had in Vietnam, we had we had our I E.

1257
01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:30,120
Speaker 1: D s, but we never called him ideas. They were

1258
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:35,120
Speaker 1: booby traps. They were usually very simple. They were a

1259
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: vine going across the trail that would function, a poll

1260
01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:45,680
Speaker 1: friction device that would function a mind. The North Vietnamese

1261
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 1: had the d H fives and the d H ten minds.

1262
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:54,000
Speaker 1: They were kind of like our claim war minds, but

1263
01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:57,320
Speaker 1: they were folk more focused, whereas our claim our minds,

1264
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:02,200
Speaker 1: the frag spreads out. These minds that the North Vietnamese

1265
01:26:02,320 --> 01:26:06,680
Speaker 1: had just would funnel down a trail and like a

1266
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:10,920
Speaker 1: d H five would have five kilograms of explosive, a

1267
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:14,680
Speaker 1: d H ten would had ten kilograms of explosives. They

1268
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:17,280
Speaker 1: were doing the same thing. They would recover our artillery

1269
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:23,800
Speaker 1: rounds are two fifty pound, five hundred pound, uh two

1270
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:27,000
Speaker 1: thousand pound bombs. They would they would bury those in

1271
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:31,120
Speaker 1: the road in Vietnam. In Vietnam, but these were in

1272
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:34,920
Speaker 1: control detonate them. But these we were just called them

1273
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:40,559
Speaker 1: booby traps. Uh and uh. But we did a lot

1274
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 1: of conventional We had AMMO dumps that would blow up,

1275
01:26:46,320 --> 01:26:50,639
Speaker 1: they would rocket attack, mortar attack, hid in our ammo dump,

1276
01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:53,920
Speaker 1: scatter ammunition all over the place in Vietnam, and we

1277
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:56,520
Speaker 1: do a lot of that kind of clean up ammunition

1278
01:26:56,600 --> 01:27:00,200
Speaker 1: clean up A little bit different, but some of the aime.

1279
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:05,240
Speaker 1: And of course we fought in the jungle versus in

1280
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:09,040
Speaker 1: the desert and in the urban environment. A few times

1281
01:27:09,120 --> 01:27:13,960
Speaker 1: in Vietnam, like during the Tet offense in nineteen sixty eight,

1282
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:17,840
Speaker 1: became urban, but most of the time everything took place

1283
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 1: in the jungle. And also, you we were present to

1284
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:26,960
Speaker 1: see the evolution of Special operations. I mean, you were there.

1285
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:29,439
Speaker 1: I don't I want, I don't know. Well, you were

1286
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:32,160
Speaker 1: there for the creation of SOCOM. Some people would say

1287
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:34,960
Speaker 1: is the beginning, but you know, I mean you did

1288
01:27:35,040 --> 01:27:38,160
Speaker 1: get to see a wide breadth of Special operations, and

1289
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:40,879
Speaker 1: I was just curious about your thoughts about how it evolved.

1290
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:44,080
Speaker 1: And you know, by the time you retired in I mean,

1291
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:47,280
Speaker 1: it must have been a different you know, just a

1292
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 1: different world. It did from a from equipment and everything

1293
01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:55,639
Speaker 1: from well from our first you know, they are from

1294
01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:59,799
Speaker 1: the world of difference from the Iran Hosta Dresti mission

1295
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 1: and what we had to work with there. I mean

1296
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:09,839
Speaker 1: that's that was in um nineteen eighty. Uh, the Iran

1297
01:28:10,120 --> 01:28:13,880
Speaker 1: ostage trick in April nineteen eighty when that took place,

1298
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:20,080
Speaker 1: and we had there was a lot that we didn't

1299
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 1: have because after Vietnam. This is happening today too. I

1300
01:28:24,400 --> 01:28:28,360
Speaker 1: see that. I just got an email yesterday. Um, the

1301
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 1: downsizing of our military. We had the downsizing of our

1302
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:37,479
Speaker 1: military and Vietnam, and you know, they dismantling of the

1303
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 1: special operations you know from Vietnam earlier. Every special operations

1304
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:46,120
Speaker 1: units are like the ones they had in World War

1305
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:51,160
Speaker 1: two Korea. Uh, that's the first thing it gets dismantled,

1306
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:56,519
Speaker 1: all the special operations units. And so they that that

1307
01:28:56,720 --> 01:29:02,240
Speaker 1: was pretty dismantled after following Vietnam, and so we just

1308
01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:08,240
Speaker 1: didn't have the helicopter airlifts that we needed, uh like

1309
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:14,080
Speaker 1: we would to do the mission, and just lost a

1310
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:17,680
Speaker 1: lot of experience. We didn't have a lot of the experience. Um,

1311
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, the we had Navy pilots trying to fly

1312
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:26,479
Speaker 1: these helicopters and they were they the helicopters we used

1313
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:30,240
Speaker 1: were our Age fifty three D model helicopters which were

1314
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:33,240
Speaker 1: used for counter mining. What they would do is they

1315
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:36,200
Speaker 1: would fly the helicopters in the daylight. The Navy would

1316
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:39,600
Speaker 1: and they would do a pattern on the water to

1317
01:29:40,040 --> 01:29:43,920
Speaker 1: look locate mines. And then now we are asking those

1318
01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:48,320
Speaker 1: pilots to fly at night with night vision gages over

1319
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:51,679
Speaker 1: land over desert and it just in in a short

1320
01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:55,000
Speaker 1: period of time and it didn't work out. We got

1321
01:29:55,160 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 1: marine pilots to take over the Navy helicopters, and again

1322
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:04,440
Speaker 1: they did not have the training and night vision goggles,

1323
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:07,120
Speaker 1: and we had a lot of problems, had problems with

1324
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:12,440
Speaker 1: the aircraft maintenance problems. Um, they would sometimes the helicopters

1325
01:30:12,479 --> 01:30:16,719
Speaker 1: would get lost, sometimes they wouldn't land where you wanted

1326
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:21,479
Speaker 1: them to land. Um. So it was just a big

1327
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 1: That was the biggest issues that we didn't have the

1328
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 1: joint infrastructure to really do that that mission. We knew

1329
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:34,559
Speaker 1: that if we got to the walls of the embassy

1330
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:40,280
Speaker 1: American embassy in Iran, that we thought we would rescue

1331
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 1: the hostages. We figured to be a problem getting them out.

1332
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 1: We didn't think all the helicopters would show up they

1333
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:53,240
Speaker 1: get lost. Uh. We we thought that we could get

1334
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,240
Speaker 1: the hostages out there would be great. We had we

1335
01:30:56,360 --> 01:30:59,360
Speaker 1: all had E and E plans, escaping invasion plans to

1336
01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:04,520
Speaker 1: get out of Iran uh and uh and we practiced

1337
01:31:04,640 --> 01:31:09,760
Speaker 1: those uh, you know, trying to move get out of

1338
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:13,160
Speaker 1: Iran and work our way to Turkey if we had

1339
01:31:13,200 --> 01:31:17,519
Speaker 1: to stay behind. I have a lot of gratitude for

1340
01:31:17,640 --> 01:31:20,519
Speaker 1: you and for your teammates because you had spent so

1341
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:23,880
Speaker 1: much time creating this capability. You know, I joined the

1342
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:27,840
Speaker 1: army a few years after you retired in two thousand two. Uh.

1343
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 1: We were going to war at that point, and you know,

1344
01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:36,560
Speaker 1: I was the beneficiary really of a lot of the

1345
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:39,479
Speaker 1: hard work that you and your peers had done, a

1346
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:41,960
Speaker 1: lot of these really hard lessons learned that we've been

1347
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:46,160
Speaker 1: talking about from Iran, Grenada, uh, Panama, so on and

1348
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:48,560
Speaker 1: so on. UM. So that when I got there, you

1349
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 1: know this, this, these capabilities already existed one sixtieth already existed,

1350
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:55,519
Speaker 1: all of these things that um that we already had,

1351
01:31:55,680 --> 01:32:00,320
Speaker 1: rather than starting from scratch after nine eleven. So I mean,

1352
01:32:00,400 --> 01:32:02,479
Speaker 1: and this is great to go back in time and

1353
01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:06,800
Speaker 1: to hear how all these things came about. Yeah, the

1354
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:10,960
Speaker 1: sat Com radio and during the Iran hosty to rescue mission,

1355
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:16,080
Speaker 1: sat Calm radio is just coming into service then. But

1356
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:18,880
Speaker 1: but what you you couldn't use this Like the hell

1357
01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:22,360
Speaker 1: they had sat calm radio and the helicopters, but they

1358
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:25,479
Speaker 1: couldn't use the sat Calm radio. They would have to

1359
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:29,680
Speaker 1: land set up the sat Com radio in order the

1360
01:32:29,760 --> 01:32:32,639
Speaker 1: antenna in order to use it. They couldn't do use

1361
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:36,920
Speaker 1: it operated in flight. How today we operated in flight,

1362
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:41,600
Speaker 1: but we had no that was our only secure radio communication.

1363
01:32:44,280 --> 01:32:47,519
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, we covered a lot here, Mike,

1364
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:49,640
Speaker 1: We've gone well over an hour here. I mean, I

1365
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:52,479
Speaker 1: really appreciate thinking I do. I mean, I think the

1366
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 1: only other thing. I mean, we could definitely go more

1367
01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:57,160
Speaker 1: in depth and keep talking all day. I don't want

1368
01:32:57,200 --> 01:32:59,400
Speaker 1: to take up all your time, but I did want

1369
01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:01,880
Speaker 1: to ask, um, because we have so many guys who

1370
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:04,960
Speaker 1: are veterans now who are getting out of the military

1371
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 1: reintegrating into civilian life. I want to ask you know,

1372
01:33:09,439 --> 01:33:12,840
Speaker 1: what your transition was like into you know, retirement, if

1373
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 1: you had any difficulties, Um, you know kind of even

1374
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:21,840
Speaker 1: the military and you know, just moving on. I guess no,

1375
01:33:22,120 --> 01:33:25,880
Speaker 1: it was pretty easy for me with I got married

1376
01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:29,960
Speaker 1: the same month I retired UM and my wife like

1377
01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:34,360
Speaker 1: she she was traveling full time. And that's what I

1378
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:37,800
Speaker 1: liked about the military is the travel. I was gone

1379
01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:42,600
Speaker 1: all the time to different countries and everything. So it

1380
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:45,760
Speaker 1: was it was a pleasure to just get out and

1381
01:33:45,840 --> 01:33:50,479
Speaker 1: to travel, you know, countries more of your choosing than

1382
01:33:51,160 --> 01:33:54,080
Speaker 1: and also people not wanting to kill you while you're there.

1383
01:33:54,800 --> 01:34:02,080
Speaker 1: Uh So, so the transition I had, there's no problem

1384
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:07,120
Speaker 1: personally with the transition out of the military. And my

1385
01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:13,320
Speaker 1: wife we we rock climbed, we mountain climbed, we uh

1386
01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:20,680
Speaker 1: ski both back country downhill ski, mountain bike, uh kayak.

1387
01:34:21,320 --> 01:34:28,519
Speaker 1: So that's just kept me going, keeping an active lifestyle. Yes,

1388
01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:33,640
Speaker 1: and uh like I said that, I just got an

1389
01:34:33,720 --> 01:34:36,960
Speaker 1: email from my from my commanding officer the other day,

1390
01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:40,200
Speaker 1: e O D commanding officer. One of his guys got

1391
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:43,800
Speaker 1: orders for drill sergeant school, EO D Tech got orders

1392
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:47,599
Speaker 1: for drill scart. He wants he wanted to know had

1393
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:52,000
Speaker 1: this ever happened before? And he talked around to other people,

1394
01:34:52,160 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 1: never heard of it, you know, D guy coming down

1395
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:58,040
Speaker 1: on orders for drill sergeant school. So and so I'm

1396
01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:01,240
Speaker 1: getting ready to answer him, but uh, that's exactly what

1397
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:07,280
Speaker 1: happened following Vietnam. I remember, uh, in the downsizing of

1398
01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:11,639
Speaker 1: the military. I remember different e O D E seven's

1399
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:15,920
Speaker 1: E six is in the sevens having to be reclass

1400
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:21,200
Speaker 1: into their secondary MOS whether it be ammunition storage or

1401
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:25,680
Speaker 1: a supply sergeant. I remember e O D folks at

1402
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 1: following Vietnam n c O s getting orders to drill

1403
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:34,200
Speaker 1: sergeants school. So now it's uh, it's happening again. There

1404
01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:37,720
Speaker 1: would be a huge mistake to squander the experience that

1405
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:40,479
Speaker 1: these guys have that they've developed throughout the course of

1406
01:35:40,560 --> 01:35:45,479
Speaker 1: the war where they're downsize in the military, and then

1407
01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:50,640
Speaker 1: as downsizing in general, they still need drill sergeants. They

1408
01:35:50,720 --> 01:35:54,479
Speaker 1: still need people. There's the demand for e O D

1409
01:35:55,720 --> 01:36:01,719
Speaker 1: state side is you know less. So that is that's

1410
01:36:01,920 --> 01:36:06,679
Speaker 1: what's going to be happening. Uh. Hopefully after drill sergeants,

1411
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:10,240
Speaker 1: after after doing a stint as a drill sergeant, that

1412
01:36:10,320 --> 01:36:14,519
Speaker 1: he'll come back into the O D program. But a

1413
01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:17,880
Speaker 1: commanding officers says he was just shocked at one of

1414
01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:23,160
Speaker 1: his guys came down on orders of drill sergeant school. Odd. Yeah, jeez,

1415
01:36:23,200 --> 01:36:29,080
Speaker 1: I hope that's not the case. Yeah, So I think

1416
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:35,599
Speaker 1: special operations this time around this downsizing the military will

1417
01:36:36,640 --> 01:36:42,200
Speaker 1: stay pretty good. Yeah. Uh, this because of the type

1418
01:36:42,240 --> 01:36:49,639
Speaker 1: of limited warfare uh that's going on out there. There's

1419
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:52,880
Speaker 1: a place for special operations in today's world, and there's

1420
01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:56,000
Speaker 1: a lot of public and congressional support I think for

1421
01:36:56,200 --> 01:37:00,920
Speaker 1: special operations. Yeah, the conventional eye to the house is

1422
01:37:00,960 --> 01:37:06,240
Speaker 1: gonna suffer. Yeah, that's unfortunate. I think you're absolutely right.

1423
01:37:07,280 --> 01:37:13,040
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Well, I guess that's well. I can think

1424
01:37:13,080 --> 01:37:18,040
Speaker 1: of right now quite a bit. And like I said,

1425
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:21,800
Speaker 1: you really were one of the favorite guests of our

1426
01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:24,320
Speaker 1: audience the first time you were on, and they were

1427
01:37:24,360 --> 01:37:26,600
Speaker 1: demanding that we do a part two. So this is

1428
01:37:26,640 --> 01:37:28,960
Speaker 1: a real treat for them and a real honor to

1429
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:34,320
Speaker 1: have you on. Well, thank you, and we'll stay in touch, Yeah, Mike,

1430
01:37:34,400 --> 01:37:37,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you're welcome anytime. Um, if you ever need

1431
01:37:37,120 --> 01:37:41,040
Speaker 1: anything from either of us, absolutely don't hesitate to reach out.

1432
01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:43,400
Speaker 1: We really appreciate you taking, you know, an hour and

1433
01:37:43,439 --> 01:37:47,160
Speaker 1: a half of your time today for us. Yeah, well

1434
01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:49,640
Speaker 1: I sn't. I appreciate what you guys are doing and

1435
01:37:49,720 --> 01:37:53,960
Speaker 1: given a voice to the different you know, veterans and

1436
01:37:54,120 --> 01:37:57,960
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and this is all history. Absolutely, it's great.

1437
01:38:01,120 --> 01:38:03,640
Speaker 1: Thanks Mike. All right, thank you, Sergeant Major. Have a

1438
01:38:03,680 --> 01:38:09,880
Speaker 1: good day. Good day to you. Take care, appreciate it. Wow,

1439
01:38:10,120 --> 01:38:14,920
Speaker 1: Sergeant Major Vining, there's just an incredible amount of stories there.

1440
01:38:15,680 --> 01:38:18,599
Speaker 1: Uh well, yeah, again, I mean we did a two

1441
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:21,680
Speaker 1: part interview, but we're still just griping the surfaces. As

1442
01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:23,920
Speaker 1: you can see, you know, there's a lot more. He

1443
01:38:24,160 --> 01:38:26,200
Speaker 1: the guy just did a lot, he experienced a lot,

1444
01:38:26,439 --> 01:38:28,760
Speaker 1: and um, I'm sure we could go on, but I

1445
01:38:28,880 --> 01:38:32,560
Speaker 1: think we kind of covered the highlights. You know, we

1446
01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:35,479
Speaker 1: got all the big points in absolutely, and I think

1447
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:38,320
Speaker 1: people are going to be fascinated. As I was. I

1448
01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:40,400
Speaker 1: was actually hearing things for the first time that he

1449
01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:43,479
Speaker 1: was talking about. I was like, when he was talking about, um,

1450
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 1: the plans to assault that Saddam's command bunker with like

1451
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:49,400
Speaker 1: a ranger battalion, I was like, what, I don't I've

1452
01:38:49,400 --> 01:38:51,960
Speaker 1: never heard about any of this, and probably no one has,

1453
01:38:52,479 --> 01:38:55,200
Speaker 1: so I mean unless they were involved in the planning

1454
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:57,519
Speaker 1: or something like that. You know. Yeah, I just for

1455
01:38:57,800 --> 01:39:00,559
Speaker 1: for the audience, this stuff is not out there. Um,

1456
01:39:01,120 --> 01:39:02,920
Speaker 1: of course, want to let you guys know, there's only

1457
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:07,879
Speaker 1: one club with gear handpicked by special operations military veterans

1458
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:11,080
Speaker 1: from several branches, and that, of course is Great Club.

1459
01:39:11,479 --> 01:39:14,519
Speaker 1: Past items we've had in our premium crates have been

1460
01:39:14,920 --> 01:39:16,920
Speaker 1: an E d C Med kit put together by a

1461
01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:21,320
Speaker 1: Benghazi survivor and Army ranger, Chris Tonto Pronto, and a

1462
01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:25,120
Speaker 1: ballistic shield insert for your backpack made by cry Precision,

1463
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:28,880
Speaker 1: which was awesome. Great Clubs really stepping it up as

1464
01:39:29,720 --> 01:39:33,080
Speaker 1: progresses by putting out custom products that you're not going

1465
01:39:33,160 --> 01:39:35,880
Speaker 1: to find anywhere else. We saw some of those um

1466
01:39:36,040 --> 01:39:38,599
Speaker 1: while we were at our team meeting and they're great.

1467
01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:42,120
Speaker 1: We have different tiers of membership depending on how prepared

1468
01:39:42,160 --> 01:39:44,639
Speaker 1: you want to be, and gift options are available as well.

1469
01:39:45,080 --> 01:39:47,840
Speaker 1: We're also working on more digital platforms that are gonna

1470
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:50,040
Speaker 1: be interactive with Great Club members, so you can check

1471
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:53,479
Speaker 1: that all out at Great Club dot us. Once again,

1472
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:57,800
Speaker 1: that's Great Club dot us. For your dog owners, we're

1473
01:39:57,840 --> 01:40:00,519
Speaker 1: doing something very similar to check this out. You're gonna

1474
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:04,080
Speaker 1: love it. Uh. We've just launched Kuna Uh. There's a

1475
01:40:04,200 --> 01:40:07,600
Speaker 1: team of trained canine handlers picking out a box for

1476
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Speaker 1: your dog each month of healthy treats and training aids.

1477
01:40:11,479 --> 01:40:14,360
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1478
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Speaker 1: The products are US sourced and all natural. UH. They

1479
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:21,320
Speaker 1: not only promote a healthy diet, but also promote being

1480
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1481
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Speaker 1: or at chihuahua, this is just what you're looking for.

1482
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:29,960
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1483
01:40:30,120 --> 01:40:33,519
Speaker 1: That's Kuna dot Dog. It's efficient for you and your

1484
01:40:33,560 --> 01:40:35,880
Speaker 1: dog will appreciate it as well, of course. And that's

1485
01:40:35,880 --> 01:40:40,040
Speaker 1: spelled c U n A dot d O G. And

1486
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:43,120
Speaker 1: as a reminder for those listening, for a limited time

1487
01:40:43,160 --> 01:40:46,519
Speaker 1: you can receive a fifty percent discounted membership to the

1488
01:40:46,560 --> 01:40:50,960
Speaker 1: spec Ops Channel, our channel that offers the most exclusive shows,

1489
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Speaker 1: documentaries and interviews covering the most exciting military content today.

1490
01:40:55,960 --> 01:41:00,280
Speaker 1: The spec Ops Premier show UH Training Cell follows warmer

1491
01:41:00,320 --> 01:41:04,200
Speaker 1: Special Ops forces as they participate in the most advanced

1492
01:41:04,240 --> 01:41:07,759
Speaker 1: training in the country, everything from shooting schools, defensive driving,

1493
01:41:08,320 --> 01:41:12,479
Speaker 1: jungle and winter warfare, climbing and much more. Again, you

1494
01:41:12,520 --> 01:41:15,800
Speaker 1: can watch this content by subscribing to the spec Ops Channel,

1495
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:19,000
Speaker 1: which is at spec ops channel dot com and take

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Speaker 1: advantage of a limited time offer at off your membership

1497
01:41:23,360 --> 01:41:26,000
Speaker 1: only four ninety nine a month. And also, as I mentioned,

1498
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:29,360
Speaker 1: if you're a team room member, um, along with the

1499
01:41:29,479 --> 01:41:32,439
Speaker 1: annual team room party that we have, joining the chat

1500
01:41:32,600 --> 01:41:35,599
Speaker 1: that we do commenting on articles with the writers, you'll

1501
01:41:35,680 --> 01:41:39,479
Speaker 1: also get membership to the spec ops channel. So that's

1502
01:41:39,520 --> 01:41:42,280
Speaker 1: a real incentive to become a team room member. UM.

1503
01:41:42,520 --> 01:41:44,320
Speaker 1: I have to say, I mean, my favorite part of

1504
01:41:44,360 --> 01:41:47,679
Speaker 1: that interview that I just thought was fascinating was him saying,

1505
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:49,960
Speaker 1: you know, when I asked what makes someone become an

1506
01:41:50,000 --> 01:41:54,840
Speaker 1: EOD tech and as a kid doing these like science experiments, yeah,

1507
01:41:54,920 --> 01:41:58,439
Speaker 1: which which today you would definitely be labeled the potential

1508
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:01,200
Speaker 1: terrorists like that that would not fly today. No, no,

1509
01:42:01,360 --> 01:42:04,479
Speaker 1: but that it definitely wouldn't fly. I Uh, I interviewed

1510
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:08,160
Speaker 1: somebody who, um, his background is in ballistics, but he

1511
01:42:08,360 --> 01:42:12,599
Speaker 1: is actually a rocket scientist, like for real, and UM,

1512
01:42:13,120 --> 01:42:15,639
Speaker 1: he was telling me a similar story. There's a junior

1513
01:42:15,720 --> 01:42:18,600
Speaker 1: chemistry kit back when he was a kid, and it

1514
01:42:18,720 --> 01:42:21,120
Speaker 1: had a small amount of like black powder in it

1515
01:42:21,280 --> 01:42:24,040
Speaker 1: or something some sort of powder explosive like that. And

1516
01:42:24,160 --> 01:42:27,080
Speaker 1: he's like, I bought a couple of these different chemistry

1517
01:42:27,160 --> 01:42:29,880
Speaker 1: kits and then combined all the powder in it to

1518
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:32,439
Speaker 1: make a bigger boom. He was like probably like ten

1519
01:42:32,560 --> 01:42:34,160
Speaker 1: or something like that, and he's like he blew up

1520
01:42:34,200 --> 01:42:39,120
Speaker 1: his dad's garage with it. Yeah. I just wonder. But

1521
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:45,120
Speaker 1: you know, the mic vining of today, are we stifling

1522
01:42:45,240 --> 01:42:48,120
Speaker 1: kids that have just weird interests? You know? Also though,

1523
01:42:48,439 --> 01:42:51,000
Speaker 1: label someone who's interest a strange stuff is being like

1524
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:55,240
Speaker 1: autistic or something, And oftentimes these people are geniuses that

1525
01:42:55,560 --> 01:42:58,519
Speaker 1: that just are doing something that's outside the realm of

1526
01:42:58,920 --> 01:43:02,719
Speaker 1: what's accepted in Yeah, I mean I kind of agree.

1527
01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:06,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't want kids playing with explosives unsupervised,

1528
01:43:06,120 --> 01:43:09,519
Speaker 1: but I think there's definitely a role for um for

1529
01:43:09,680 --> 01:43:12,280
Speaker 1: kids to conduct you know, science experiments with you know,

1530
01:43:12,400 --> 01:43:16,280
Speaker 1: some adult supervision. Uh, you know, even to have kids,

1531
01:43:16,360 --> 01:43:18,519
Speaker 1: you know, learn how to shoot guns and go out

1532
01:43:18,640 --> 01:43:21,280
Speaker 1: of the range to shoot twenty two pistol or rifle,

1533
01:43:21,400 --> 01:43:24,800
Speaker 1: you know, and just just like basic life skills, you know. Yeah,

1534
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:28,439
Speaker 1: I mean, we we do need future mic mindings. Yeah. Oh,

1535
01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:32,000
Speaker 1: we just need future responsible citizens too. And I mean

1536
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:35,040
Speaker 1: there's the gun controlled debate raging in America and all that,

1537
01:43:35,160 --> 01:43:38,000
Speaker 1: and like, look, you know, we have guns in this country.

1538
01:43:38,040 --> 01:43:42,040
Speaker 1: They're not going away. We have constitutional rights Um, if

1539
01:43:42,120 --> 01:43:44,799
Speaker 1: guns aren't going to go away, then why it seems

1540
01:43:45,040 --> 01:43:48,040
Speaker 1: it seems like almost like we're responsible, Like if we're

1541
01:43:48,040 --> 01:43:51,080
Speaker 1: gonna have guns, we should teach kids about gun safety

1542
01:43:51,160 --> 01:43:53,840
Speaker 1: and things like this. Why why don't we do that? Yeah?

1543
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:56,280
Speaker 1: And I really think it's so obvious that there is

1544
01:43:56,360 --> 01:43:59,120
Speaker 1: a cultural problem. There is a cultural issue that goes

1545
01:43:59,200 --> 01:44:02,280
Speaker 1: along with it because the fact that in when Mike

1546
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:05,360
Speaker 1: was growing up, what would that be the nineteen forties fifties?

1547
01:44:05,600 --> 01:44:09,560
Speaker 1: I guess, well, let's see if he joined uh he

1548
01:44:09,720 --> 01:44:12,799
Speaker 1: was a NAM in sixty eight, must have been eighteen

1549
01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:17,879
Speaker 1: or nineteen. Yeah, so, but yeah, so the nineteen fifties,

1550
01:44:18,040 --> 01:44:22,759
Speaker 1: early nineteen fifties. Um, you know, if kids were able

1551
01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:25,840
Speaker 1: to do this type of thing, uh, if if there

1552
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:29,760
Speaker 1: was rifle teams and elementary schools and all that type

1553
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:32,280
Speaker 1: of thing, Yet school shootings for the most part where

1554
01:44:32,320 --> 01:44:36,360
Speaker 1: non existent didn't happen. Like what has changed today? That's

1555
01:44:36,400 --> 01:44:39,959
Speaker 1: the real question. Yeah, yeah, it is. So. We appreciate

1556
01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:42,599
Speaker 1: you guys listening, if you if you like this episode,

1557
01:44:42,640 --> 01:44:45,080
Speaker 1: all we really ask is please leave a review on

1558
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:49,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. We like getting that visibility up. It's important. Um,

1559
01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:51,960
Speaker 1: and I guess that's it who do actually have the check?

1560
01:44:52,000 --> 01:44:53,840
Speaker 1: Who do we have coming on the next episode? It

1561
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:59,320
Speaker 1: is um David Rridan, who was actually referred to right

1562
01:44:59,360 --> 01:45:01,920
Speaker 1: by Mike, And it's often said that we don't have

1563
01:45:02,040 --> 01:45:04,640
Speaker 1: enough Air Force guys on, so finally we'll get an

1564
01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:09,680
Speaker 1: Air Force guy from that era. Yeah, Mike uh recommended him.

1565
01:45:09,840 --> 01:45:12,000
Speaker 1: Sergeant Major Vining was like, yeah, you should. You should

1566
01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:14,960
Speaker 1: say sergeant. I've gotten to comfortable calling him, you know,

1567
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:17,479
Speaker 1: he wants you to. He prefers to go by his

1568
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:20,000
Speaker 1: first name. I think, yeah, they'll be like this, you know,

1569
01:45:20,040 --> 01:45:22,240
Speaker 1: it's funny because you say sergeant Major Vining, and I'm

1570
01:45:22,280 --> 01:45:24,960
Speaker 1: sure I'll get comments of like the civilian on the

1571
01:45:25,040 --> 01:45:27,439
Speaker 1: show doesn't have the respect to Uh I have. I

1572
01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:31,200
Speaker 1: have a ton of respects for for the guy. Uh yeah,

1573
01:45:31,280 --> 01:45:33,720
Speaker 1: you know, but he recommended this guest, and so I

1574
01:45:33,800 --> 01:45:36,000
Speaker 1: was like, well, that's it's a good recommendation. So we

1575
01:45:36,080 --> 01:45:38,400
Speaker 1: got to try to get this guy on. Yeah. I think, well,

1576
01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:41,680
Speaker 1: if he recommends anybody, we'll have them on. And we

1577
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:44,360
Speaker 1: have a lot of great UM people coming on in

1578
01:45:44,800 --> 01:45:49,000
Speaker 1: the next few weeks. So uh, that's it. We're out,

1579
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:54,920
Speaker 1: all right. You've been listening to self rep Radio. New

1580
01:45:55,040 --> 01:45:58,400
Speaker 1: episodes up every Wednesday and Friday. For all of the

1581
01:45:58,479 --> 01:46:01,840
Speaker 1: great content from our best and journalists, join us and

1582
01:46:01,960 --> 01:46:05,320
Speaker 1: become a team room member today at soft rep dot com.

1583
01:46:05,800 --> 01:46:09,639
Speaker 1: Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter at soft Rep Radio,

1584
01:46:10,280 --> 01:46:12,720
Speaker 1: and be sure to also check out the Power of

1585
01:46:12,840 --> 01:46:17,800
Speaker 1: Thought podcast, hosted by Hurricane Group CEO and Navy Seal

1586
01:46:17,880 --> 01:46:41,360
Speaker 1: Sniper instructor Brandon Webb, M