WEBVTT - TechStuff Gets an ESRB Rating 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:05.680 Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from houseff 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:14.720 works dot com. Hello again, everyone, and welcome to tech Stuff. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:16.439 My name is Chris Pollette and I'm an editor at 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.240 how stuff Works dot com. Sitting across from me as usual, 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:24.480 rated W for weird as senior writer Jonathan Strickland. He there, 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.600 and this episode is rated T for team. Uh. We're 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:33.760 doing an episode about the e s RB. Okay, so 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.800 are you okay? I am okay. It's the Entertainment Software 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:40.080 Rating Board and this this is actually a request that 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:41.839 was sent to us by a couple of different listeners 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.880 who wanted to know more about this system. It's history, 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.879 why do we have it, does it work? What's it 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.639 all about? So? In general, the E s r B, sorry, Alfie, 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:54.960 the E s r V. What's it all about? Alfie. 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.840 The E s r V is a it's a rating 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:01.160 system for video games, and it's it's a rating system 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.280 not for the quality of the game, but what is 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.840 the content, how the content of the game shapes the game, 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:13.120 and whether or not that content is um uh suitable 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:17.600 for different age groups. So just running through the different 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.720 ratings really quickly. Uh. The e s RB has ratings 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:25.280 for EC which is early childhood. That's games that are 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.800 suitable for ages three and older. Younger than three, we 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:32.000 just typically say these are people who probably can't process 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:33.800 what the heck is going on anyway, so it really 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.920 doesn't matter what it is, but not really appropriate in 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.399 any case, Get that two year old off my xbox. 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:46.120 Uh E is for everyone, which is actually not everyone. 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:49.080 It's really content that's suitable for ages six and older. 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.200 Keeping in mind that content that's ec early childhood probably 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:58.200 has gameplay elements that most people all over the age 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:02.200 of six wouldn't be terribly interested in. Um I say 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.120 most because there are exceptions. I mean, I'm not going 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.280 to pass judgment on Chris if he wants to play 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.320 lots of e C games. There's eight ten ten plus, 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:15.679 which is everyone ten and older, so against slightly more 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:21.360 restrictive than just the E T for teen, uh M 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:25.880 for mature, meaning people who are seventeen or older uh 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:32.280 and AO AO which is adults only, which has content 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.040 in it that should only be played by people of 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.280 eighteen years of age or older according to the rating, 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.639 according to the rating AO and each of these each 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.440 of these ratings have their own criteria as to you know, 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.120 what what constitutes a T rate rating as opposed to 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.640 an M rating, And in general, what we're talking about 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.560 here are types of content that might include things like 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:01.079 gambling that that will up a uh E s R 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:03.160 B rating on a game to a higher one to 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:09.440 like M or whatever. H violence, blood, gore, sexual content, 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.799 strong language, drug use, this kind of stuff. Store of 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.040 the same things that you would see with the Motion 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:17.920 Picture Association of America with their rating system for movies. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.600 In fact, there are a lot of parallels. And you 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:24.360 might say, all right, so we have this rating system, Uh, 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:28.160 how did that get started? And really to to understand that, 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.440 you have to go back into the history of video games. 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:33.800 I would argue in a way that you'd have to 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.600 go back into the history of entertainment content because I 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:43.680 think the E s RB is, well, it's a consortium 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.920 really or and and the thing is, I think they 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.720 we're paying attention to what had happened to people in 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:57.600 other industries as well. Right it just before the before 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.280 the early nineties. It was kind of a moot point 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:06.040 only because video games were fairly primitive as far as 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:10.280 graphics are concerned, so it was not easy to graphically 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:14.720 represent something that would be objectionable. Uh, not that people 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.360 didn't try, and not that there aren't exceptions, because there are. 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.120 I'm thinking of one right off the top of my 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.800 head from the Atari Twenty Days. But you could not 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:31.760 realistically represent things like uh, graphic violence or sexual content 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.159 before the sixteen bit era. It was just really the 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.480 consideration was that the eight bit era and earlier everything 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:43.120 was so blocky and so pixelated that it didn't really 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.600 resemble reality. It was more like seeing something in a cartoon. 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.120 So uh, you know, you might watch a cartoon as 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.840 a kid of Wildly Coyote and the roadrunner, and the 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.240 road runner does something and wild E Coyote suffers a 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.000 terrible injury, and there are some people who would argue 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.960 that that could be harmful to kids. Uh, seeing how 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:08.080 it shaped me and who I am, Well that's anecdotal anyway. 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.279 And Chris, uh, you know, don't worry. I'm not going 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.160 to do anything with this enormous mallet behind me. Um 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.719 he he he. Well, yes, I and you know that 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.479 there were some exceptions. I do bear a striking resemblance 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:23.400 to my character from Adventure on the Right, just a block, 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:25.680 because I am a block, just a just a block, 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:30.000 just one pixel block, but a giant pixel. Uh. Once 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.960 we got into the sixteen bit era, we started to 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:37.680 have more realistic, more fluid graphics, and there was you know, 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:42.040 the the population that was playing video games was beginning 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:44.880 to grow older. You know, you were you had people 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.600 who had started playing video games as kids on systems 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:52.000 like the Atari or then into entertainment system or whatever, 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.279 and so they were continuing to play video games as 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:59.479 they got older, and their interests began to go into 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:04.240 more what we call mature subjects. So just like people 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.240 who watch movies, you know, they might want to go 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.839 see an R rated movie or something, uh, the same 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.719 sort of thing, and so the video game publishers began 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:14.440 to cater to that audience. I mean, you've got to 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.800 remember also, the people who were developing video games, they 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.559 were video game players, you know, when they were kids. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:22.400 And we're talking about the early nineties here. The people 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:24.960 who played video games in the very early eighties were 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.280 now the people who were making video games in the nineties. 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.160 Their tastes had matured, and so you started to see 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.719 video games that were depicting violence in a more realistic 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:40.279 and graphic way than ever before. And that began to 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:45.480 raise some concerns in the minds of certain people. UH. 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.840 Some of those people held quite a bit of influence, 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:54.960 people like UH the Senator Joe Lieberman UH and Senator 0:06:55.000 --> 0:07:00.320 Herb Herb Cole. They both were concerned and they had 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:04.120 hearings in the United States Senate about video game violence 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.920 and how that affected children and whether or not in fact, 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:13.520 video games were contributing to the corruption of society. This 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.680 is not a new thing at all. We have had 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:21.680 politicians worry about various forms of entertainment corrupting the youth 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.200 and ruining everything. And that's why apple pie doesn't taste 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.880 as sweet. It's why you can't walk down the street 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.040 at night. It's why you have to lock your doors 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.840 when you leave in the evening. It's it's why you 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:35.760 you never have the paper because your neighbor always steals it. 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.680 It's it's it's the purpose. It's actually the reason why 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:45.600 everything is terrible. Now I'm exaggerating for effect. I didn't 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:51.000 know if you were you were, you know, but um, 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:53.160 but yeah, I mean. And then it's not just politicians, 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:57.760 of course, their parents associations. There are just concerned citizens 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:03.320 who draw conclusions that a form of entertainment, and the 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.400 its popularity among a certain group might in fact influence 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.120 that certain group to behave in a negative way or 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.600 to be desensitized against violence for example. Exactly. Yes, so 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.280 not necessarily they'll go out and hit somebody over the 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.040 head with a mallet, But if they see someone else 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.480 hit someone over the head with a mallet, they won't 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:25.480 necessarily spring to action. Um. Yeah, there there are concerns, 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:29.720 and there have been lots of different studies with very 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:34.760 different outcomes about whether or not violence in media affects 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.880 people in a real way beyond you know, beyond like 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.400 a visceral reaction. Does it have a lasting impact on 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.400 a person's personality. Those are questions that still have not 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.080 been fully answered because there are a lot of studies 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.280 out there with conflicting results. I know what I believe, 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.520 but but there are results the conflict with what I believe. 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.880 So well, as it turns out, it may be one 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.360 of those frustrating situation asition, where it may depend on 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.440 the individual person right well, in which case I would 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.280 argue that that's a person that's a person issue, not 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.320 a not an industry issue, right because it's it's one 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.240 of those, you can make the argument of, well, if 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.640 this one person who was affected by this one type 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:18.280 of media were to instead have fixated upon another type 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.400 of media, we'd be having the same discussion. But we've 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.160 been having it about music. And this discussion has been 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.199 about music. It has been about television, it has been 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.600 about film, it's been about novels, it's been about classical music. 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.280 I mean, any form of entertainment. You can imagine. It's 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.320 gone through this experience of people talking about, you know, 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.079 that novel, that new fangled way of putting words together 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:46.120 and creating fanciful fictional stories is ruining everything. Oh yeah, 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.240 that that Actually there were people who said that novels 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:52.760 we're bringing about the downfall of society. Well, hey, I 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:56.000 recently read that that Plato, I think it was, had 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:02.640 rebelled against the written words. He said, no, because writing 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.560 things down means that you are sapping your own ability 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:08.360 to think. That was the idea. It's it's the same 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.560 argument about Google making us stupid, because everything that we 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.320 need to know is on the web now, so we 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:18.480 don't need to remember it in our our meat space heads. Um. 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.280 So yeah, I mean, anyway, like we the point of 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.320 that whole thing is just to say video games are 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.720 not unique in this situation. This has gone through multiple venues, 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.440 multiple forms of media. But in this case, you had 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.760 a lot of pressure coming from the United States government 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.760 for something to be done in the video game industry. 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.960 Within the industry itself or the ultimatum was, if you 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.200 guys don't get together and figure out a way of 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.480 taking care of this, then we're gonna do it. We 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.760 being the United States government, and the industry was like, 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:53.800 did not want that to happen. They did not want 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.320 to have some sort of federal regulation in place over 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.079 the video game industry, and so it was impaired of 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:04.200 to come up with some sort of industry based ratings 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.199 system that could be demonstrably proven to be as objective 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.400 as possible, so it's not you know, it's not pulling 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.280 the wool over anyone's eyes or anything. Uh. And to 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:19.440 have some sort of enforceable policy, Yeah, those were all 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.280 important issues. Yeah. And and again they're they're taking their 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:27.560 their their cues from other similar or other entertainment industries 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.160 like the Motion Picture Association of America with with movie 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.320 ratings several decades prior, and of course the comics code 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.840 from comic books. After Frederick Wortham's uh um Seduction of 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:45.040 the Innocent Um Wow, But yeah, I mean these these 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.960 industries self regulated. They said, okay, okay, you know what, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.040 we'll get together. We'll form a group and we will 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.800 come up with a rating system that helps people identify 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:56.880 what kind of content to you know, will be in 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.640 the package when you when you do this. And yeah, 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.000 I mean were there were certain games in particular, I 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.520 think some you know, like Mortal Kombats. That's the one. 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.280 The Mortal Kombat, I think, more than any other video game, 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:12.599 has been cited as the the genesis of this discussion. 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.640 I mean there are other ones to like Doom that 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:19.760 was another big one, um Night Trap for home games 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.200 Lethal Enforcers, which was, as I recall, a light gun 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.720 based game. So I mean, yeah, these these were games 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:27.600 that had a lot of violence in the of course, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.000 by today's games standards. If you're talking about a truly 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.080 truly violent game in today's standards, they might seem quaint 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.920 in comparison. But but you know, that was what caused 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.400 these conversations to happen, and as a result, the games 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.760 industry are actually different companies within the industry all began 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.080 to suggest ratings systems, and in fact, there were quite 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.360 a few. In the earliest days, there were several competing ones. 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.439 Sega came out with one, the Video Game Rating Council, UH. 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.120 Video Game Rating Council was from Sega. There was the 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:06.480 three D O suggested one. UH. They they had the 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:12.360 Recreational Software Advisory Council, formed by Software Publishers Association, and 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.360 then there was one called the Interactive Digital Software Association, 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:20.920 which again was a UH. It's a collection, it's a 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:25.800 collection of software companies that were h advocating for a 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:30.680 particular rating system, and that I D s A. It's 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:35.000 eventually became the Entertainment Software Rating Board E s r 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.280 B as we now know it. That got presented to 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:45.720 Congress and in UH Congress approved the form the formation 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:47.840 of the s E s r B, and they, you know, 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:52.679 it was formally made the rating system for American video games. 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.559 So if you pick up a video game in America 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.960 video game case, there's a very good chance, in fact 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:04.600 overwhelmingly good chance, that you will see a little black 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.360 box with white white inside, and then there's a black 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.400 letter that indicates what the rating for that particular game 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:16.200 is um and and that's become the standard essentially. Uh. 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.040 And here's the thing is that there's there's no The 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.800 reason for this again is so that the consumer has 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.360 an idea of what type of content is going to 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:29.040 be in that game. Uh. It's it's not specifically meant 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:33.960 to dictate two retailers what they need to do with 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.560 each type of game. Like in other words, there's no 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:42.120 rule that says, okay, anything that is rated T or 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.600 or higher in the on the maturity scale like T 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:50.440 or M or a O cannot be three feet off 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.720 the floor. It has to be higher up than that. Like, 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:56.200 there's no rule about that. There's no there's no specific 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.640 policy in place or law in place that says you 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:01.560 have to be a certain age to be able to 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.880 buy a game. The rating is there as a guide 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.720 to say this is what, this is who the game 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.280 is intended. You know, we mean this for people who 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.840 are seventeen or older or eighteen or older. In fact, 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.000 there was the United States Supreme Court found that that 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:24.280 you cannot restrict mature or adults only titles to specific 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:28.960 age groups because video game content falls under the realm 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.760 of free speech, which cannot be infringed upon by the government. 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.680 Now that doesn't mean that the stores can't have policies 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.120 because the stores are not the government. In fact, that 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.760 was the whole reason why this board was formed, was 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.880 so that they could keep that separation between government and business. 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.680 So a an actual retailer, if you were to go 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.880 to a video game store, they might have a policy 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:55.280 that says, we do not sell UH any game that 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.760 is ranked M or AO to anyone under the age 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:01.360 of event ten, and we will ask for I D. 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:05.120 And that's their policy, and it's perfectly fine. The government 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:09.040 can't restrict it, but a store can, and UH also 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.320 go ahead and say it. AO games very rarely get 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.720 carried in stores because it's kind of the same thing 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.640 as the n C seventeen rating for films. Films that 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.280 get an NC seventeen rating very very rarely get any 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.320 sort of release in most theaters. You might have a 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.480 few independent theaters that will run in C seventeen movies, 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:33.320 but in general they do not get any sort of 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:35.840 wide release at all. It's very rare when that happens. 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.320 So the same sort of thing with AO games. So 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.160 getting an AO rating, if you are a game publisher 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.240 and you develop a game and you submit it to 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.880 the E s r B and you get an AO rating, 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.000 your first reaction might be, we need to change this 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.880 because no one's going to carry our game in stores 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.560 and we're not going to make any money. Yeah, now, 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.520 they don't. They don't necessarily play all of the games. 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.960 Actually they don't. They don't play the games at all. Well, 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.320 they do have in house testers, according to the s 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.480 r B, who do go through it um and as 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.399 a result of uh, the whole hot coffee incident, they 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.639 are supposed to at least disclose everything that's in the 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:18.119 in the package that you could get, even if it's hidden. 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.360 So in order to in order to understand what Chris 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:22.800 has just said, you know, we have to have some 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.520 background here. First of all, the generally the way that 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.560 a game manufacturer submits a game to the s r 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:33.080 B E s RBS UH general way of testing a 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:37.040 game doesn't necessarily involve playing it. It can involve playing it, 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.800 but to play a game and to really get a 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.560 sense of what the content is all about can take 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.880 hours and hours and hours of gameplay. So they don't 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:47.840 play every single game that comes into them all the 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.360 way through what what they do tend to do though, 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.520 is part of the s r B ratings processes. They 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.080 require a game manufacturer to submit a DVD that has 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.760 on it the examples of the most extra dream types 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.480 of content that game has. So, in other words, you're 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:11.320 watching like a clip compilation of the worst of this game, 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.080 worst being in the sense of like the most intense content. 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.720 So if if it has any sort of violent content 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:23.560 or uh, sexually graphic content, or or foul language, anything 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.119 like that, anything that would affect the rating, the most 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.000 intense examples of that are supposed to be included on 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:34.240 the DVD so that the ratings experts who are trained 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:39.639 in uh the the processes that the e s r 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.879 B uses to determine the rating for a game, so 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:47.080 that they can determine what rating applies here. And if 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.760 you were to release a game that turned out to 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.639 contain content that went beyond what you showed the DVD 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.000 in the DVD, you could suffer some pretty stiff finds 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:03.080 industry uh, the industry itself would find you and you 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:06.480 could face a recall which could be very expensive to 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.040 recall all the copies of the game. Now that is 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.720 the case when when Christmas talking about the hot coffee 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:15.680 incident that's specifically talking about it was Grand Theft Auto 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.480 four right, I want to say, or Grand Theft Auto 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.520 San Andreas. Grand Theft Auto s Andreas was specifically what 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:25.800 it was. Uh I owned that game. So this was 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.000 something that was originally included in the game, and it 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:30.879 was a mini game, and it was it was a 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:36.080 sexual encounter and it was Ultimately the game designers decided 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.240 not to include it in the game, but they didn't 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:42.639 remove it so much as they kind of the code 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.040 was still there, but it was inactive. It was sort 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.600 of like an Easter egg. Well, yeah, you could get 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:51.680 to it if you if you knew how to either uh, 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.560 if you knew how to either alter an Xbox console 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.000 or if you're using the PC version, if you were 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:01.359 able to use some software to activate the code, you 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.720 could get access to this game. But it was this 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.159 mini game within the game, but it was not intended 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.200 for public consumption, at least that's what the publisher said. 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.840 And the problem was that went outside what they had 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.400 submitted to the ratings board, and they had their original 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:22.320 rating for that game was M for mature that many 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.680 game pushed it over to adults only, and so they 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.080 ended up doing a recall and republishing the game without 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.280 the code and at all so they could regain that 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:37.479 M mature rating. Ah, if you were to uh submit 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.520 your game again, you would send this DVD to the 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:42.960 E s r B. They would have up to well 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:47.480 at least three people looking at it. Those three people 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:52.080 would have experience with kids. That's actually one of the 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.320 requirements is that they would have to have some sort 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.800 of experience, either professional or personal, with children in order 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.879 to be able to view the content and then judge 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:05.720 at what age level is this appropriate? And so it's 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:09.560 not just you know, some scientists with beakers and uh, 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.720 not that kind of beaker, but with a like electronic 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.359 device is saying, well, scientifically, we've determined that sixteen is 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:21.439 exactly the age at which this game can be sold 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:24.640 and no one under sixteen should ever play it. It's 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:26.800 not that way. It's uh, it's a little more subjective 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.720 than that. In fact, so is in fact the film 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.879 rating system. It's not there's no rating system that I 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:38.680 know of that is truly objective, so that you may 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.600 find examples of games on the market where you're thinking 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:44.600 this game is rated T for teen. This game is 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.120 rated M for mature, and I cannot see a significant 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:52.240 difference in content between the two games. That's entirely possible. 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:55.560 Same with M and a O. You might say, well, 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.920 why did this incredibly violent game get a mature rate? 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:04.680 But this game which has a brief UH scene that's 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.800 that's part of the game that has some sort of 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.240 sexuality to it, that got a O. And again it 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.960 also brings into question things like the cultural values like 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.920 which this gets discussions all the time. Why do we 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:24.119 think of violence being more acceptable than UH scenes that 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.760 depicts sexuality for example? And I mean there's that's a 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.320 complicated cultural question that goes well beyond the scope of 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:34.359 UH this podcast. I mean that it would be a 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:38.600 fascinating discussion, but doesn't really play into here. But yeah, 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.440 if you take a look, there's there's a list that 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.960 they maintained that the E. S r B maintains of 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:49.840 all the games that have received an AO rating. It's 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:53.760 a tiny, tiny list. There's not many, and almost all 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:56.239 of them, in fact, all of them that I can 0:22:56.280 --> 0:23:00.639 think of, UH have strong sexual content as one of 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:03.359 the components of the game, And except for one was 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.760 gambling and it was actual gambling and that's what got 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:09.760 it an AO rating, and the rest were strong sexual 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.040 content which gave it the A O rating, whereas there 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:14.840 was I think only one game that I can think 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.080 of that merited and initially merited an AO rating based 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:22.879 solely upon violence, which was The Punisher, as I recall, 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:27.320 and it was it just it had such graphic depictions 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:31.240 of violence and and torture scenes that the game publisher 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:33.560 ended up going back and in order to avoid an 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.600 AO rating, they changed there was there was like some 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.800 interrogation scene I think that was so intense that that 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:42.560 was what was the real problem, that was the crux 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:45.560 of it. So they changed it from color to a 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:50.800 black and white uh image for that particular sequence, and 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:53.200 that was enough to knock it back down to mature, 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:55.560 which is kind of interesting. I mean again, that's a 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:59.400 philosophical discussion that I think needs to happen and has 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:01.480