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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from house Supports

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline

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Speaker 1: and I'm Kristin. And in celebration of Father's Day, we

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Speaker 1: are connecting this episode with the episode we did for

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Speaker 1: Mother's Day on single moms. And so today we want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about single dads because we can't

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Speaker 1: leave out that very important portion of the population. So

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Speaker 1: we want to celebrate dads. And today we're looking at

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Speaker 1: those of you who are going it alone. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's a good time to be talking about single dads,

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Speaker 1: not just because Father's Day was yesterday, but because single

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Speaker 1: dads are on the rise and they're making a lot

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Speaker 1: of headlines. For instance, in July two, the Pure Search

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Speaker 1: Center reported that a record eight percent of households with

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Speaker 1: minor children in the US are now headed by a

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Speaker 1: single father, which is up from just over one percent

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty. Yeah, and Pew talks about how that's

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Speaker 1: a ninefold increase since nineteen sixty, from less than three

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand to more than two point six million in

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Speaker 1: twenty eleven, and for a comparison, the number of single

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Speaker 1: mother households increased more than just fourfold during that time period,

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Speaker 1: up to eight point six million in twenty eleven from

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Speaker 1: one point nine million in nineteen sixty. And single dads

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Speaker 1: have also increased as a percentage of all single parents.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty, about fourteen percent of single parent households

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Speaker 1: were headed by dads. Today, that's almost one quarter percent,

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Speaker 1: and then for another percent in two thousand eleven, and

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Speaker 1: single dad's made up eighteen point three percent of custodial parents,

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Speaker 1: which is when a person has full time solo custody

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Speaker 1: of the kids. And this isn't just a demographic change

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Speaker 1: happening in the US. Canadian neighbors as well are also

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Speaker 1: seeing the rise of single dads. According to the two

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Speaker 1: thousand eleven Canadian Census, there was an eight percent jump

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Speaker 1: in the number of single parent homes and of those,

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Speaker 1: you have a sixteen point two percent increase in single

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Speaker 1: dad led households in two thousand eleven, which outpaced the

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Speaker 1: former increase of fourteen from two thousand one to two

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Speaker 1: thousand six. So that is a lot of percents to

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Speaker 1: say that we have been on a steady climb in

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Speaker 1: the number of single dad led households. Yeah, and you

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Speaker 1: know if you listen to our single mom episode, which

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Speaker 1: I know you did. I hope so. But there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of factors going into the rise and single

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Speaker 1: dads that also accompany the rise in single moms. For instance,

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Speaker 1: in general, there's just been an increase in the share

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Speaker 1: of non marital births in general. And so that's why

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Speaker 1: it's important when we mentioned the custodial parents earlier, because

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of different types. As will explain

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Speaker 1: further in a minute, there are a lot of different

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Speaker 1: types of single parents. It's not just people who have

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Speaker 1: solo custody. There's also people who are divorced or widowed, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and to get an idea of how that share

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Speaker 1: of the non marital births as they're called so clinically

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Speaker 1: has increased. Um according to the Centers for Disease Control

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Speaker 1: and Prevention, forty point seven percent of all US births

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Speaker 1: now in the United States are two unmarried women. But again,

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Speaker 1: even though those women are unmarried, that doesn't necessarily mean

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Speaker 1: they don't have a partner or you know, like we said,

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Speaker 1: there are many different types of single parents, right, and

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Speaker 1: speaking of divorce, the rates have leveled off, but they're

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Speaker 1: still higher than they were in the nineteen sixties and seventies,

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Speaker 1: which means more single parents. And there's also issues around

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Speaker 1: the legal system. Some experts suggest that changes in the

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Speaker 1: legal system and laws in various states have led to

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Speaker 1: more opportunities for fathers to gain at least partial custody

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Speaker 1: of children in the event of a breakup. A lot

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Speaker 1: of that has to do with the way that we

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Speaker 1: perceive fathers in general, and the way we perceive single

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Speaker 1: fathers in particular, but also the way that they see themselves. Right,

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Speaker 1: the public perception of single fatherhood and simply the role

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Speaker 1: of a dad in a family and and his role

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Speaker 1: with child rearing has evolved so much, particularly in the

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Speaker 1: past forty or fifty years, because you know, we've seen

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Speaker 1: these household and gender roles for men shifting since the

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, away from that idea that that you know,

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Speaker 1: dad's just go to work and they bring home the

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Speaker 1: bacon and that's kind of it, whereas mom takes care

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Speaker 1: of the kids and so on. For instance, mad Men.

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Speaker 1: Not to completely fictionalize this conversation, but you know, Don

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Speaker 1: Draper gets a divorce from Betty spoiler alert, and the

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Speaker 1: kids live with Betty and then they come every now

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Speaker 1: and then to visit him. Because back then it was

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Speaker 1: more of the e idea that, you know, a full

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Speaker 1: time single dad. That would be kind of nutty. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that would be nutty. But now now we're not so

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Speaker 1: opposed to the idea. The the idea that guys might

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Speaker 1: be single dads and or get soul custody in the

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Speaker 1: event of a divorce doesn't seem totally alien and it's

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Speaker 1: it's funny though, to go back and look at just

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Speaker 1: the histrionics that surrounded men being the caregivers for children. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The Atlantic had a great post looking at postcards that

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Speaker 1: were going around targeting men fathers in particular during the

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Speaker 1: suffrage movement. There was no gray area. It was like

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Speaker 1: a zero sum game where either the man was at

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Speaker 1: home and he was making the money and he was

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Speaker 1: in control and the wife was home taking care of

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Speaker 1: the kids, or, as they feared would happen if women

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Speaker 1: gain the vote, the women would put on pants and

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Speaker 1: march right out of the home and start working and

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Speaker 1: the men would be left to attend to the children. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One of the tropes from that time was something called

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Speaker 1: the suffragette Madonna, and it's this hilarious image of this

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Speaker 1: befuddled guy, this dad looking character, holding a baby and

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Speaker 1: he's you know, he's in like a suit, but he

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Speaker 1: also has a halo around his head because oh, well,

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Speaker 1: his wife won the right to vote, so now he's

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Speaker 1: got to be home taking care of the baby. And

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Speaker 1: that was at that time such a radical idea in

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Speaker 1: terms of, you know, the gender roles then that it was,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was one of the major platforms arguing

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Speaker 1: against giving women the vote because well, if you do that,

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Speaker 1: slippery slope to men having to be involved fathers, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I know who wants who wants that fathers anyway, So,

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Speaker 1: like we said, now the public is really starting to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge men as more than just breadwinners. They're also caregivers too.

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Speaker 1: And the New York Times did a piece on single

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Speaker 1: dad's by choice. We all, you know, we talked about

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Speaker 1: single moms by choice in our last episode, but talking

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Speaker 1: about how these guys nowadays who were becoming dads, their

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Speaker 1: new dads come from the generations who really believed in feminism,

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Speaker 1: preached equal rights and civil rights, and so they grew

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Speaker 1: up believing in gender equality and they talked to David Klow,

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Speaker 1: who's a psychotherapist who runs men's groups at the Family

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Speaker 1: Institute at Northwestern University, and he said, there's a new

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Speaker 1: sense of masculinity that incorporates being a single father, accomplished

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Speaker 1: and successful in the business world, but also very loving

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Speaker 1: and caring. Yeah, and if you look at time youth data,

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Speaker 1: you see that even today, Yes, moms tend to spend

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Speaker 1: even whether they're working or if they're you know, full

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Speaker 1: time stay at home moms, no matter what the situation is,

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Speaker 1: women tend to spend more time caring for the kids.

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Speaker 1: But fathers are spending more time with their children than

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Speaker 1: ever before. So, for instance, the Pure Research Center found

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Speaker 1: that in two thousand eleven, ads were spending seven hours

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Speaker 1: a week on childcare and ten hours a week on housework,

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Speaker 1: which is half of what mothers do. But that's still

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Speaker 1: hugely from nive when dad's did only two and a

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Speaker 1: half hours a week of childcare and four hours of housework. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I mean people kind of fully expect that now

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Speaker 1: they expect more from their from their from their dads.

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Speaker 1: I mean, society does more. From the Pew Research Center,

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Speaker 1: they found that the public beliefs that a father's greatest

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Speaker 1: role is to provide values to his children, followed by

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Speaker 1: emotional support, discipline, and income support, which really isn't that

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Speaker 1: far off from what the values that they ascribed to mothers,

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Speaker 1: women needing to do. Yeah, and speaking of madmen, you

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Speaker 1: can see this kind of shift to in our public

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Speaker 1: perception of the important role of fathers with their kids,

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Speaker 1: in how dads are portrayed in advertising. Um, there was

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Speaker 1: a now somewhat infamous uh Huggies diaper campaign a few

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Speaker 1: years back that portrayed dad's having to change a diaper

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Speaker 1: as like the ultimate test of these diapers like amazing

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Speaker 1: qualities because of a dud can do it, then anybody

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Speaker 1: can do it. And they ended up having to pull

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Speaker 1: the campaign because a lot of guys took offense at

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Speaker 1: that of like, excuse me, involved father, here, I can

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Speaker 1: change a diaper. You know, this is this is a

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Speaker 1: new generation we're talking about now, these guys who were

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Speaker 1: who were scared of changing diapers. Yeah. I feel like

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Speaker 1: we're definitely in a time period where we're getting more

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Speaker 1: and more pushback against ads and marketing that just depicts

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Speaker 1: men as dopey and uninvolved and uninterested and all they

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Speaker 1: do is make the money and I don't know how

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Speaker 1: to take out their garbage. Yeah, you actually see ads

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Speaker 1: now of dad's driving the kids places, or dad's doing

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Speaker 1: the laundry or doing the dishes. Right, Yes, that it's

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Speaker 1: not just mom at home doing it while the dad

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Speaker 1: does other things. Right, And as far as I mean,

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Speaker 1: as far as perceptions go, they're also very important when

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Speaker 1: it comes to actual court situations divorce custody, because men

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Speaker 1: used to assume that there was no way that they

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Speaker 1: would get custody of their kids in a divorce, so

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Speaker 1: they were generally just less likely to fight to get it,

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Speaker 1: whether they were fighting the courts or just the mom.

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Speaker 1: And this is coming from an article that The Atlantic

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Speaker 1: did in February talking about this this rise and single dads. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this child custody issue is a huge factor. Like we

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Speaker 1: said in this increasing you know a number of guys

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Speaker 1: who are fighting for custody for their kids or just

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Speaker 1: getting custody for their kids because sometimes, as as the

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Speaker 1: Atlantic author was talking about, it can be easier to

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Speaker 1: just give someone soul custody, and sometimes the mom doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to have soul custody of the kids. But it

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Speaker 1: took a long time for the courts to wrap their

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Speaker 1: heads around this notion that dads can be equally good

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Speaker 1: parents to kids as mothers can be, because for a

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Speaker 1: long time, the knee jerk assumption was, oh, well, mothers

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Speaker 1: are more fit for raising kids, so custody is going

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Speaker 1: to go with the mom. Even in cases if you

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Speaker 1: have say an unwed, unwed couple and they split up,

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Speaker 1: but they've got you know, she has the kid, and

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Speaker 1: she meets someone else, they want to get married, and

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Speaker 1: then he, you know, the new guy, wants to adopt

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Speaker 1: the kid. The court would be like, Okay, yeah, that's fine,

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Speaker 1: because the unwed father, you know, he's like just kind

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Speaker 1: of over there doing his stuff, and like the kid

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Speaker 1: needs to stay with the mom no matter what. But

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Speaker 1: then in nine two you have the case Stanley v.

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Speaker 1: Illinois that really started to you know, started this domino

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Speaker 1: effect of granting father's more custody rights, because this was

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Speaker 1: the first time the court considered the custodial rights of

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Speaker 1: unmarried biological fathers. And it was this case of Joan

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Speaker 1: and Peter's Fanley, who lived together for eighteen years, they

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Speaker 1: had three kids together, never got married. Joan died and

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Speaker 1: the state automatically gave the kids. It made the kids

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Speaker 1: like wardens of the state because they just assumed while

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Speaker 1: Peter Stanley, you're, you know, this unwed father, certainly you

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Speaker 1: can't be, you know, fit to raise children. He ended

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Speaker 1: up fighting it and it went all the way up

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Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court, under the

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Speaker 1: equal Protection Clause in the fourteenth Amendment, granted him custody

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Speaker 1: of his kids, basically saying that they should only be

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Speaker 1: taken away on proof of being unfit or neglectful. And

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Speaker 1: this was really interpreted as a ruling of gender equality

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Speaker 1: and was applied in a lot of other different custodial cases.

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Speaker 1: But even still, I mean, that was ninety two, and

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Speaker 1: it still took a long time for states to gradually

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Speaker 1: move away from that automatically siding with the biological mother. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, the Stanley versus Illinois ruling helped invalidate a

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Speaker 1: provision in the New York domestic relations law that gave

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Speaker 1: unwed mothers but not fathers, the right to adopt their kids.

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Speaker 1: So talk about, you know, an equality issue right there.

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Speaker 1: So that was definitely a step in the right direction,

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Speaker 1: because you know, fathers should be able to I think

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Speaker 1: I have a say in that kind of legal matter. Well,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't even make sense to me, Like me now

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Speaker 1: is a thirty year old woman. It doesn't even make

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Speaker 1: sense to me that you're the father and you're not

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Speaker 1: the first choice on like being able to adopt kids

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Speaker 1: or get Yeah, I don't know, it doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 1: But really the ball got rolling in the early two

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Speaker 1: thousand's when many states began adopting legislation providing for joint

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Speaker 1: physical custody and which is different than just joint legal custody.

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Speaker 1: These policies were supposed to encourage basically both parents to

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Speaker 1: spend equal time with the kid, but interestingly, it seemed

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Speaker 1: to spark a rise in single dads and and the

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Speaker 1: perfect example that they give is from a study in

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Speaker 1: the Journal of Empirical Legal Studies. In it looked at

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Speaker 1: the state of Oregon, which became one of the first

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Speaker 1: states to formally enact joint parenting legislation. Before this happened,

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Speaker 1: Oregon's custody law had favored joint legal custody, so the

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Speaker 1: parents both have a say and decisions made about the child,

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Speaker 1: but not joint physical custody. After the new law, Oregon

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Speaker 1: courts defaulted to joint parenting, encouraging the child to spend

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Speaker 1: half her time with dad and half with mom. But

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Speaker 1: in Oregon, after this law, it ended up swaying way

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Speaker 1: more towards dad's Why what's going on? Because the changing

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Speaker 1: laws are actually empowering dads to ask for more. It's

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Speaker 1: not that like Oregon puts this law and effect and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, all these deadbeat mom are like,

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Speaker 1: finally I'm free. It's just that dad's perceptions of themselves,

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Speaker 1: of the way things should be, of the way things

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Speaker 1: can be, are starting to change. And so previously, you know,

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Speaker 1: decades and decades before, dad's just assumed like, Okay, well

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna see him on the weekends, or I'll

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Speaker 1: see him every other weekend or whatever, when really they're

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Speaker 1: now starting to think, and they're backed by the courts

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Speaker 1: and starting to think, oh, I can take more responsibility.

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Speaker 1: I want to take more responsibility, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: ask for it. Yeah, And not to say that it's

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Speaker 1: always illegal and cheap cake walk to get custody rights.

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Speaker 1: If you are, you know, a father, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that we'll hear from some dads out there who have

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Speaker 1: or maybe are going through these kinds of custody issues,

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Speaker 1: because there are still plenty of courts that do tend

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Speaker 1: to side more with the mom. But there's definitely been

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Speaker 1: so much progress since that Stanley v. Illinois. Um just vision,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and even the fact Caroline that, in contrast

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Speaker 1: to our episode on Single Moms where we trace the

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Speaker 1: history back centuries, I mean, the history at least legally

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Speaker 1: speaking in the US kind of just starts in the seventies.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that speaks to how significant of a change

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Speaker 1: this is. Yeah, that goes beyond assuming, that goes beyond

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Speaker 1: assuming that like, oh, women are the better parents and

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Speaker 1: mothers and kids should be with that that's the belief system.

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Speaker 1: That's just like you believe that that's the way things are.

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Speaker 1: And so I it makes sense then in that context

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Speaker 1: that it took so long to change. But now, like

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Speaker 1: I said, being I can't imagine. Yeah, well, it's like

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Speaker 1: you're saying, that reminds me of one of the sources

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Speaker 1: we were reading talking about how our ideas of motherhood

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Speaker 1: and fatherhood in a lot of ways sort of like

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Speaker 1: gender is very much a construct, Like influenced by culture

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Speaker 1: and time and media, etcetera. So the good thing is

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Speaker 1: I feel like there are constructed our fatherhood construct has

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Speaker 1: has only developed in a more positive way. And speaking

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Speaker 1: again of single dads in particular, who who are these guys, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: who are these fellas? Yes, so that report that Pew

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Speaker 1: released looking at the rise and single fathers, um it

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Speaker 1: is worth specifying who they were looking at. So fathers

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Speaker 1: in that Pew report are fifteen years or older. They

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Speaker 1: are the head of their household. They are living with

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Speaker 1: their own minor children, whether those children are biological stepchildren

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Speaker 1: or adopted. Pew excluded fathers who are living in a

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Speaker 1: household headed by someone else, and fathers whose children are

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Speaker 1: not living with them, And they broke down why these

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Speaker 1: guys are single fathers. About half are separated, divorced, widowed,

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Speaker 1: or never married and are living without a cohabitating partner. However,

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Speaker 1: some forty one are living with a non marital partner.

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Speaker 1: So again there's that whole like murky area where Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're technically legally a single dad, but you might have

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Speaker 1: somebody living with you. Only seven percent are married still

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Speaker 1: but living apart from their spouse with custody of the kids.

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Speaker 1: And when we compare father's heading household solo versus fathers

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Speaker 1: in two parent households, we do see similar patterns as

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Speaker 1: we talked about in the single Moms episode, because single

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Speaker 1: dads do tend to be younger, a little bit less educated,

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Speaker 1: less financially well off, and less likely to be white,

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Speaker 1: and also less likely to be in full time jobs.

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Speaker 1: So this also brings up, then you know, this issue

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Speaker 1: of parental resources, and we'll get into some more comparisons

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Speaker 1: in a minute. We definitely want to look at single

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Speaker 1: moms versus single dads. There are a lot of statistics

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Speaker 1: out there that we want to throw at you, but

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Speaker 1: we'll get right into that after a quick break. So

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Speaker 1: we just talked about how single fathers and single moms

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Speaker 1: share some demographic similarities, but there are also some differences

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Speaker 1: worth noting aside from the fact that single fathers tend

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Speaker 1: to be men, single mothers tend to be women. Beyond that,

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Speaker 1: single fathers are more likely than single mothers to be

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Speaker 1: living with a cohabitating partner, far likelier actually forty versus sixtent,

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Speaker 1: but those cohabitating guys tend to be younger. Single dads

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Speaker 1: who are over forty typically live with just the kids

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Speaker 1: Allah Louis c K who yes, we will talk about

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Speaker 1: a little bit more later in the podcast. And also

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Speaker 1: compared to single moms, single dads are more likely to

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Speaker 1: be white and are more likely to own their own home.

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Speaker 1: Two thirds of single dads own their own home, while

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Speaker 1: two thirds of single moms rent and generally, single dads

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Speaker 1: are older than single moms. Of them are under forty

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Speaker 1: compared to sixty of single moms, whereas forty seven percent

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Speaker 1: of them are over forty compared to thirty eight percent

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Speaker 1: of single moms. So there are some interesting demographic breakdowns.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously you know, single dad, same as single

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Speaker 1: mom moms are not a monolithic group, but there are

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Speaker 1: some some standout differences, particularly when it comes to this

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Speaker 1: income issue. Because single fathers, even though they tend to

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Speaker 1: have less money, make less money, tend to uh they're

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Speaker 1: less likely to be in a full time job than

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Speaker 1: married fathers, but compared to single mothers, they tend to

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Speaker 1: have higher incomes and are far less likely to be

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Speaker 1: living at or below the poverty line versus forty percent

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Speaker 1: of single moms living below the poverty line, which again

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Speaker 1: brings up another contrast to our single moms issue, where

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Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time talking about government resources

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Speaker 1: and kind of bridging the gap for single moms you

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Speaker 1: need more assistance, whereas Caroline, I've saw very little of

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Speaker 1: the same kind of information targeted to dad's Yeah, exactly, Um.

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Speaker 1: And when you look at how much money these guys

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Speaker 1: are bringing home every year, um, the average amount for

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Speaker 1: a single dad household of three is a lot less

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Speaker 1: than that of a married fathers. So the single dads

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Speaker 1: tend to bring home about forty dollars a year, whereas

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Speaker 1: married fathers tend to bring home about seventy thousand on average.

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Speaker 1: But even though that's a lot lower than married fathers,

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Speaker 1: it's more than single moms who bring home and a

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Speaker 1: median adjusted annual income for that three person household of

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Speaker 1: only twenty six dollars. So how do these demographic differences

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Speaker 1: dad v Mom? How does all this shake out for

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Speaker 1: the kids? Are their differences between single dad and single

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Speaker 1: mom parenting? Um? A lot of the studies that we

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Speaker 1: looked at found that really, when all the data shakes out,

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Speaker 1: there's not a huge difference because when it comes to parenting,

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Speaker 1: as is the same case if you talk about LGBT

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Speaker 1: parenting and how sexual orientation influences child outcomes, it's not

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Speaker 1: so much gender sexual orientation those kinds of factors that

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Speaker 1: influence child outcomes, but rather this issue of resources. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so if you look at school, for instance, there

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Speaker 1: have been a lot of studies on how kids of

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Speaker 1: single parents fair at school, and a lot of studies

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Speaker 1: have mainly shown that it's not the dad versus mom,

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Speaker 1: man versus woman factor. It's more the socioeconomic factors and

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Speaker 1: kind of having just one parents. So like when I

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Speaker 1: was growing up, you know, I had mom there who

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Speaker 1: was cooking dinner and making sure I got dressed. I

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Speaker 1: had dad to help me with my math homework. You know,

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Speaker 1: there was always one parent available to help drive me

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Speaker 1: somewhere while the other took care of I don't know,

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Speaker 1: bills or work or whatever they had to do. Whether

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Speaker 1: you're a man or a woman, if you're a single parent,

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Speaker 1: I think, is any single are it could attest? Where's

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Speaker 1: the other person to go help you do things? Like

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Speaker 1: they talked to one single dad I think in the

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Speaker 1: New York Times, who said, you know, as a single parent,

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Speaker 1: if you if it's ten o'clock at night and you're

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Speaker 1: five year olds in bed and you realize you don't

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Speaker 1: have any milk for the next day. Who's going to

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Speaker 1: go out and get the milk? But anyway, I digress,

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Speaker 1: So dogs should be better trained. Cats cat get that milk.

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Speaker 1: Get a cat to go out and get it, Yes,

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Speaker 1: and they're perfect. Um. So there was a study in

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Speaker 1: the Journal of Family Issues from that looked at data

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Speaker 1: from the National Longitudinal Study, and so I realized that

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Speaker 1: that's very dated, but there's still trends that are very relevant.

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Speaker 1: They found that children from single father and single mother

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Speaker 1: families perform about the same at school, but both are

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Speaker 1: outperformed by children from two parent families. So when you

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Speaker 1: look more closely at dad versus mom, they said, the

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Speaker 1: lack of economic resources explains the school difficulties of kids

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Speaker 1: from single mother families. And yes, that's from a long

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00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: time ago, but it still makes sense in considering single

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00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: moms makes so much less than single dads. And they

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Speaker 1: found also that a lack of interpersonal parental resources provides

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00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: a more accurate description for why children from single father

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Speaker 1: families do poorly in school. But maybe that's changing as

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Speaker 1: our views of single dads now and their views of

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Speaker 1: themselves change. Yeah, And sort of along these same lines,

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Speaker 1: there was a more recent study that came out in

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Speaker 1: two thousand ten in the Journal of Marriage and Family

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Speaker 1: which found that while there might be some small differences

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Speaker 1: in parenting behavior behaviors of single mothers and single fathers,

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Speaker 1: these differences are often sensitive to demographic disparities and don't

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Speaker 1: really translate to academic deficits for children in either family type.

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Speaker 1: So it's not like, oh, well, if Susie is gonna

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Speaker 1: go live with dad, then her grades are gonna plummet,

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Speaker 1: so Susie should live with with mom instead. Like, as

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Speaker 1: long as Susie's mom and dad are both is engaged

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Speaker 1: as they can be, she will do all right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the kids will be all right. The kids and the

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Speaker 1: kids are all right. Um. But there are benefits of

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Speaker 1: dealing with dads, some psychologists and sociologist would argue, and

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Speaker 1: one of those factors is play. W Brad Wilcox, who's

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Speaker 1: a sociologist at u v A and studies marriage and families,

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Speaker 1: said that dads are actually more likely to rough house

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Speaker 1: play than moms, which is a style of play that

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Speaker 1: helps teach kids to control their bodies and their emotions.

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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, I'm like, my dad never rough house

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Speaker 1: with me. But then again, I don't know. He was

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Speaker 1: forty when they had me, so maybe he was done

430
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: with the rough housing. Yeah. I was the last after

431
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: a lot of kids, So I remember some rough house

432
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,959
Speaker 1: play when I was small, but I think by the

433
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: time I got like a little bit older, he was

434
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: probably worn out. No Dad, there was Dad was constantly

435
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: reinforcing how much is back hurt? So there was no

436
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 1: there were no more piggyback rides. But um, as far

437
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: as play exploration and all that stuff goes, fathers are

438
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: also more likely to encourage their kids to embrace risk,

439
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: both on the playground and in life. This influences, Wilcox says,

440
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: the ambitions of children over the long run. Yeah, there

441
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: have been so many studies in recent years really digging

442
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: into the role of fatherhood and how it, you know,

443
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: interacts with child outcomes, because I think for so long

444
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: people have just been focusing on moms and they found

445
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: all of these these findings that aren't terribly surprising, such

446
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: as you know, the thing about the rough house play,

447
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: which makes sense because you know, maybe guys are a

448
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: little more just rough house in their play. I know

449
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: that my brothers were more rough house and my sisters were.

450
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: And then if you look at you know, dads who

451
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: believe in gender equality, no big surprise that their daughters

452
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: tend to have higher career ambitions compared to dads who

453
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: have more sexist beliefs. And in fact, though this is important,

454
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: dad's gender beliefs were more influential on their daughters than

455
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: their mom's beliefs. I'm that I think that's incredibly important,

456
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: and I think it's interesting because I mean, you know,

457
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: the whole the whole thing about oh we marry our

458
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: dads or we look for men who are like our dad's. Well,

459
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: if your dad is more likely to support gender equality,

460
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: believe in feminism and kind of instill those values in you,

461
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: that says a lot. And that kind of paternal investment

462
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: in terms of rough house play or talking about gender

463
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: equality or disciplining whatever it might be. That involvement also

464
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: translates to better outcomes for kids in school as well.

465
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: We just touched on school, but the National Center for

466
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 1: Education Statistics has also found that father's involvement in school

467
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: is associated with a higher likelihood of students getting mostly a's.

468
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: And that's true not just for two parent families, but

469
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: also in dad only households. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's

470
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: really important to point out that it's in both types

471
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 1: of families and the circumstance that it is that fatherly involvement.

472
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: Knowing that your dad is invested, that you're more likely

473
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: to get all a's. Um. There's also the involvement in school.

474
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: Students living in father only families are the most likely

475
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: of all students to have highly involved fathers. Forty of

476
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: such students have fathers who are highly involved in their schools.

477
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: So whether that's volunteering, being on the p t A,

478
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: you know, coaching the soccer team, Well, that makes sense

479
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: because they have they don't have a room BA who

480
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: can go to you know, the PTA meetings, and single

481
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: dads are actually likelier than step dads, biological fathers with

482
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: a stepmother in the home and two parent households the

483
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: to biological parent households to attend parent teacher conferences, school meetings,

484
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: school events, and volunteer. So single dads in a lot

485
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: of ways are knocking it out of the park. Yeah.

486
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense because I just wonder if

487
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: you know we're falling back on those social norms and expectations,

488
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: gender expectations when in two parent households, the the mom

489
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: sees his control of the PTA responsibilities, whereas the dad's like,

490
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: I'll just let you do that. Yeah, yeah, I think

491
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: it's so easy. And I'm now staring off into anecdote

492
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: for a moment um. It's kind of easy in a

493
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: heterosexual couple to just fall back on sort of the

494
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: traditional gender roles that might have been modeled for us,

495
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: because in my family, mom, you know, my mom cooked

496
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: dinner and did the dishes, and my dad worked in

497
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: mode the lawn, and I now see in the patterns

498
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: of my own life, I just need your kind of well,

499
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: I'll go to the grocery store, you stay home and

500
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: change the light bulbs. Did this happen like two days ago, maybe, Caroline,

501
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: it just happened. Well, then, I mean, it's beyond anecdote.

502
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: We we talked about this in our Egalitarian Household episode,

503
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: looking at straight couples versus gay couples, or same sex

504
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: versus opposite sex couples, and how even the most like

505
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: super feminist women right women's rights progressive couples once they

506
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: get married, it's like, oh, I'm the man, you're the woman. Well,

507
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: and especially to when it comes to that child rearing.

508
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: When we decided the statistic a few minutes ago about

509
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 1: how even though dads are doing more than ever before,

510
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: moms are still doing twice as much. Um. But there

511
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: are some single dads who are doing it for themselves

512
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: and by their own choice. We talked about single moms

513
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: by choice in our Single Mom's episode. These are women

514
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: who are sort of going out of their way because

515
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: they want to be moms that they don't want to

516
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: have the traditional they don't want to find somebody, you know,

517
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: and have to go through all of that. They're just like, oh,

518
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: well I will adopt, I will get you know, in vitro,

519
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: I will have a baby because I just want to

520
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: be a mom. And there are more and more guys

521
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: who are doing this. Example, Ricky Martin of Living Levita

522
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: Loca Fame adopted twins not too long ago and he

523
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: intends to raise them as a single Yeah, he's a

524
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: single dad by choice, living Levita Loca. He has Living

525
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: Levita dad. Yeah. The different kind of Loca these days, right, Um. Yeah,

526
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: the new York Times, NPR, ABC News, they all looked

527
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: into this whole rise of single father thing, but also

528
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: the rise of single fathers by choice, and the New

529
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: York Times reported that surrogacy agencies, adoption agencies, and father

530
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: support groups are all reporting that they're seeing more single

531
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: fathers by choice. A lot of these guys happened to

532
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: be gay, but the number of straight guys looking to

533
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: go it alone are on the increase. To Yeah, there

534
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: was a statistic in that New York Times article that

535
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: jumped out to me. Uh. They cited two thousand eight

536
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: data from the National Center for Health Statistics which found

537
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: that men age eighteen to forty four are twice as

538
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: likely as women of the same age group to have

539
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: adopted a child. Now, that's partially explained by men being

540
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: likelier to adopt step children, but the report also found

541
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: that seventy three thousand never married men had also adopted

542
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: a child, and that group includes those who are single

543
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: fathers by choice. Right, And you know, this whole time,

544
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: we've been talking a lot about changes in society, changes

545
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: in perception of what's possible. And Steve Majors, who's the

546
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: communications director for the Same Sex advocacy group Family Equality

547
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: Counsel says it's the same thing for gayman. He says

548
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: that a lot of young gay men once believed that

549
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: living in openly gay life meant not having children, that

550
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: you were either straight, or that you were closeted and

551
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: then you had a family, or that you were just

552
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: gay and single with no kids. But now, as you said,

553
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: we're seeing this rise in different technology and whether that's IVF,

554
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: whether they're adopting, but we're seeing alongside the rise of

555
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: same sex marriage, we're also seeing a rise in gay

556
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: men pioneering the use of reproductive technology to have kids.

557
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: And we're also seeing a legal evolution as well, in

558
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: addition into what we were talking about in terms of

559
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: men being able to get child custody, but also legal

560
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: doors being opened for gay men to adopt children, because

561
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: there are still some states that have bands against that

562
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: um but those dominoes are also starting to fall right

563
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: and there's people out there doing their part to combat

564
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: those misconceptions. Brian Testier started up four one one four Dad,

565
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: a hotline for prospective single fathers, and Testier was talking

566
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: about how both gay and straight guys reach out to

567
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: him a lot about the topic, and many believe that

568
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: they can't adopt on their own. Many think that it's

569
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,719
Speaker 1: not even possible that legally you have to have some

570
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: type of partner going into it with you. Yeah. And

571
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: it was interesting when ABC News was reporting on this,

572
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: they talked to some agency professionals who said that if

573
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: a child has been in say an abusive situation with

574
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: his or her biological mother, or has special needs, that

575
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: a single dad in part killer can be a really

576
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: stabilizing factor. I mean, I think we a lot of

577
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: times we hear about stories about how difficult it is

578
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: for men to adopt, particularly now actually straight men, because

579
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: they kind of get like a side, I like, well,

580
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: why would you want to adopt a child on your own?

581
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: But they can actually be attractive candidates for you know,

582
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: for kids, right, And they pointed out another advantage of

583
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: single adoptive dads, and that is that many adopt older boys,

584
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: which is a group that's historically been difficult to place

585
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: in homes for adoption. And speaking of adoption of having

586
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: kids in the same way as there are trade offs

587
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: any time you become a parent, no matter what your

588
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: family structure looks like. Same goes for single dads right

589
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: when you're looking at the financial aspects. For instance, um,

590
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: women tend to struggle after a divorce with making ends meet.

591
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: That's that's their main financial struggle. But for men for

592
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: a divorce who gained custody of the kids, it's their

593
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: careers that can end up kind of a mess if

594
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: you look at it from one perspective or simply different.

595
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it makes sense that you've got to sacrifice something.

596
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: And with this change in society that we're seeing out

597
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: of more men becoming single, dads were also and they're

598
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: also going to have to get used to the fact

599
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: that maybe your career path has to change. A lot

600
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: of women have changed their career paths, you know from

601
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: otherhood before. Yeah, talking about the quote unquote mommy off

602
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: ramp that many women start to hit around our age,

603
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 1: Caroline of that question of like, well, do I want

604
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: to have a kid? Do I want to have you know,

605
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: keep blazing for with my career? Can I do both?

606
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: How can I make that happen? That kind of leaning

607
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: sort of stuff. And it was kind of funny, not funny,

608
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: but a little chuckle worthy when I read an anecdote

609
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: from one of these single dads talking about how frustrating

610
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: it is for him when he has to leave work

611
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: to take care of his kids. Sometimes it gets to

612
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,959
Speaker 1: stinky from his co workers because they think, oh, well,

613
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: shouldn't mom be doing that? And it's simply though, the

614
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: same kinds of issues that working moms have been dealing

615
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: with since moms began working. Right. Yeah, there was a

616
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: two thousand eight story that CNN Money did and they

617
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: talked to this guy named Dave King who got custody

618
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: of his kids, four of them, and had to leave

619
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: the job that basically had him on a direct career

620
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: path to earning five thousand a year. But was it podcasting, Yeah, podcasting, um,

621
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 1: And he you know, he's like, I love my kids

622
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: more than anything. I'm you know, I want to make

623
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: them happy. But he said, I have to fight my

624
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: own anger and frustration when I think about the opportunities

625
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: I had that were lost because they were palpable. He

626
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: saw it right there in his future and then he

627
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: had to move and give it up to like have

628
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: custody of his kids. And all I could think was think,

629
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: think of all the women. Yeah, that's the only bone

630
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: that I have to pick with one of two bones.

631
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: We'll get to the second bone and a second This

632
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: bone that I have to pick with these kinds of

633
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: stories is that it's this novel idea of making some

634
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: kind of financial sacrifice for having kids. It's as though

635
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 1: this decision has never had to been made by like, oh,

636
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, like fifty one of the population. But

637
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: also though one note on him, it wasn't just the

638
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: issue of taking a job that you know, didn't pay

639
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: him half a million dollar in podcast for royalties, but

640
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: that the divorce and custody battle that ensued also costs

641
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 1: around a quarter of a million dollars. Like we said earlier,

642
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: that you know, the it's not always a simple easy

643
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: kick walk to working out these kinds of custody issues

644
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: and becoming a single dad. It can also cost a

645
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: pretty penny on top of you know, having to like

646
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: clothe and feed them and all that. And then you

647
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: look at the stats that when two parents divorced and

648
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: the dad gets custody, it's not nearly as common for

649
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: the the ex wife to have to pay any sort

650
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: of child support to the dad, whereas you know, it's

651
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: very typical for the dad to have to pay for

652
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: for the mom yeah, I mean, there's definitely still a

653
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: lot of imbalance in the legal system in terms of

654
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: how that works out. Um, there's also some imbalance too.

655
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: It seems like when it comes to dating and remarriage

656
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: after becoming a single dad. It seems like from our

657
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: single Mom's episode, a lot of women who are single

658
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: moms remains single. I mean, probably half the reason why

659
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: is because they don't even have time to date. But

660
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: it seems like single dad's and I don't want to

661
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: say have an easier time of it, but are likelier

662
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: to seek it out. Yeah, well that goes back to

663
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: the whole I feel like we've talked about this in

664
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: different ways on the podcast, but you know, even when

665
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: you're talking about marriage or whatever, that men are much

666
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: more uncomfortable with being on their own, whereas a woman,

667
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: you know, if she if her husband dies, for instance,

668
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: like she's more likely to turn to her support up

669
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: of friends and be okay, and so she's maybe not

670
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: as eager to get back out there and get another partner,

671
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: whereas a man who is widowed is more likely to

672
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: go out in search of a partner rather than friends.

673
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: Or to put it another way, armand Broad who's The

674
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: author of the Single Father, A Dad's Guy to Parenting

675
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 1: without a Partner says that single fathers have a tendency,

676
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: more more so than single moms to feel incomplete without

677
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: a partner in the house, so they risk rushing into

678
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: a new relationship that may not be right. Well, and

679
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: one interesting survey finding related to that is that when

680
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: single dads do date, they seem to prefer dating women

681
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: who also have children because there's that assumption that, well,

682
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: they're going to be a little more understanding of their

683
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: fatherly commitments that they might have to make, and also

684
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: probably gets over the hurdle of telling a woman you're

685
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: on a date with it, Oh, by the way, I

686
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: have kids. Probably makes that a little bit easier if

687
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: she can also respond or he can respond, oh, yeah,

688
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: I also have children. Because that is especially now that

689
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: we are you know, of this age that we are at, Caroline,

690
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: it's you know, if we were both like out in

691
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: the dating pool, it would not be a wild notion

692
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: for us to end up on a date with someone

693
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: who is divorced and or has children, right, yeah, And

694
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,439
Speaker 1: there were there were some advice columns out there about

695
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: how do you deal with that? How do you either

696
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: how do you as a woman data single dad or

697
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: how do you as a single dad date people out there? Um,

698
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: because a lot of times there was one column I

699
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: read where the woman was just like, you know, I

700
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: couldn't handle it because there was a part of me

701
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: that realized that his kid was always going to be

702
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: his number one priority. And so that is something that

703
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 1: also has to be considered well. And speaking of single

704
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: dads and dating, and I mentioned Louis c K earlier

705
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: in the podcast. I mean, he has an entire show

706
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: pretty much about dating as a single dad, and it's

707
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: not just about dating, But he came to mind with

708
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: all of this research, not just because um, he's hilarious

709
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: and I'm a huge Louisy K fan and he is

710
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: a single dad of two adorable daughters, but he jumped

711
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: out in my mind in terms of you know, we

712
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: talked a lot about the perception of single dads and

713
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: reading these trend pieces on single dads, and particularly single

714
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: dads by choice, they are treated so much differently in

715
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: a lot of ways than single moms are. Because for

716
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: someone like Louis c K, like we love him because

717
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: he is hilarious and is very insightful, etcetera, etcetera. But

718
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: I think we also love him too because we particut.

719
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: And I'm just saying like, we like, culturally really gravitate

720
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: to this idea of, you know, the sacrificial single dad,

721
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: who is you know, doing it on his own, Whereas

722
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: it seems like when we talk about single moms. And

723
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: maybe it's just because as there's such an awful historical

724
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: legacy of single moms being thrown under the bus, but

725
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: I feel like even today, single moms get a bit

726
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: of a short end of the stick. Right. In one

727
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: of the New York Times pieces we read, the main

728
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: picture with the story is of a man in a

729
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: nice suit in his office with a playpen next to him,

730
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: and there's choice on his desk, and he is awesome.

731
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: That's great, He's so great. But think about the side

732
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: eye that a woman in the same position would get.

733
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: A woman coming to work and having a playpin there

734
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: with toys and a baby, like obviously she's not dedicated

735
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: to her job or whatever, Whereas it seems like that

736
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: the social perception is that a man who has a

737
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: playpen in his office is so dedicated. Yeah, and there's

738
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: also that whole selfishness, perception of single moms by choice,

739
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: where they're often painted as you know, just like I

740
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: don't know, being almost like narcissists for their decisions, or

741
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: as we think it's like really cool. And not to

742
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: say that invested single dads aren't laudable and really cool.

743
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I wish that we could a cultural

744
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: conversation about single moms could be elevated in a similar

745
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: way to single dads, because yes, we need to encourage

746
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: men to be active and involved fathers. Study after studies

747
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: shows that that makes such a huge positive difference in

748
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: kids lives. But I just wonder why we tend to

749
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: hold more esteem it seems for single dads and single moms. Well,

750
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: I think that goes back to just cultural expectations. I

751
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: wonder if it also goes back to Cramer Versus Cramer,

752
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy three drama starring Dustin Hoffman about how

753
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 1: he you know, en Meryl Streep. His wife ends up leaving,

754
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: he has the kid alone. It's his whole journey of

755
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: him learning how to be a father. And I mean

756
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: it's really good and it's very poignant and all of that,

757
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 1: but Meryl Streep is painted as this awful, selfish, deadbeat mom,

758
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: and in a way she kind of is because she

759
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 1: abandons her family. Yes, but I feel like we still

760
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: have that creamer versus creamer, like Dustin Hoffman like running

761
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: through the rainy streets of New York to get his

762
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: son kind of ideal of the single dad, which again

763
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: it's not bad, but it's like, why are they heroes

764
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: and single moms aren't heroines? Yeah, I mean, I think

765
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: you nailed it on the head talking about just like

766
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: the cultural legacy, the cultural nastiness with which women were

767
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: single moms have always been treated and its single dads

768
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: are so by comparison, rare. But with this trend, with

769
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: this rise in single fathers, I really think we're going

770
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: to see a shift. I mean, if we're already seeing

771
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: it with people getting mad about diaper advertisements, I think

772
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: that there is some real movement here. Not that I

773
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: want to talk about movement and diapers in the same sentence,

774
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 1: but it I mean, I think that as things become

775
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: more normal like this, it's going to be less like

776
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: every single single dad as a hero and every single

777
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: single mom is you know, somebody to be pitied. I

778
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: think there. I think we're going to see over the

779
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: next maybe I'll be dead, but over the course of

780
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: several generations, we're going to see like more acceptance of

781
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 1: just people being people. Yeah. I mean again, the most

782
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 1: striking difference between researching for this episode and researching for

783
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: the single Mom's episode is that the the legacy of

784
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: the unward mother goes so far back in time, and

785
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: for this one we had to do some digging and

786
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: right on back too. I mean, there's some stuff before that,

787
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: but it's mostly like just the panic of even the

788
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: idea of men raising kids. So happy fathers say, though,

789
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: happy elated Father's Day to all the single and not

790
00:45:55,520 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: single dad's out there. Um, we're very much pro single fathers,

791
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: and yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how this trend

792
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: continues to develop. But now single dads and folks who

793
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: are being raised or have been raised by single dads,

794
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 1: we especially want to hear from you on this topic.

795
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

796
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: new email address, or you can also tweet us at

797
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or send us a message over on Facebook.

798
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: And we've got a couple of messages to share with

799
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: you right now. So I've got to let her hear

800
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: from Brenda. In response to our episode The Widowhood Effect,

801
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: she writes, in two thousand and eight, I lost my

802
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: husband Kevin to a rare cancer. I was twenty four

803
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: and he was thirty six. It was devastating and I

804
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 1: felt completely alone and abandoned. We had been married only

805
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: a year and a half and had gone through so

806
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: much together, a long distance relationship, with me in Pennsylvania

807
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: and him in Manitoba, US immigration, financial woes, and just

808
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: when we were getting on our feet, the cancer hit.

809
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: It was all so very fast, and I felt like

810
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 1: an outcast. I knew no young widows. They were all

811
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 1: my grandmother's age. This past March, I released my first

812
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: book titled EBB from the Shoreline, Finding Cancer and Courage,

813
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: about our love and cancer story. I want others impacted

814
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,919
Speaker 1: by cancer and caregivers to find hope in these big

815
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: struggles of life. There's also one organization in particular that

816
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: has helped me immensely in my loss, Soaring Spirits International,

817
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: which host Camp Widow. I've spoken at several of their

818
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: camps on blogging through grief, traveling alone, and also offer

819
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: writing intensive connecting with widows in person at their camps

820
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: has been crucial in my healing process, so we just

821
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: wanted to share that information for any widows that might

822
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: be listening. Again. That's called Soaring Spirits International, which hosts

823
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: Camp Widow. And thanks so much for writing Brenda. Well,

824
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Emily that's actually responding

825
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: to a couple of different episodes we did. She said

826
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: that I had to take a moment from drawing backgrounds

827
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: for animation to send this email. It seems crazy how

828
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: relevant some of your recent podcasts have been in my life.

829
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: I used to work as a game tester for Disney Interactive.

830
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: While I was there, the girls on the floor were

831
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: very small in numbers, but all of the higher up

832
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: jobs were held by strong, amazing women. I had the

833
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: pleasure of meeting one of Disney Animations legends, Floyd Norman.

834
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: He was one of the first black artists to work

835
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: in Disney. He knew Walt Disney personally, and when I

836
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: heard stories from him and honestly made me rethink Walt

837
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: Disney being racist or sexist. I feel nerd ashamed for

838
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: not being aware of any of the other women at

839
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: Disney uname besides Mary Blair I work at a small

840
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: animation studio right now and do comic book work on

841
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: the side. I'm not a member of the union, so

842
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: that could account for low numbers. I've never really taken

843
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 1: my gender into consideration. I just do what I love.

844
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: When it comes to the job of animation. It seems

845
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: most of the time jobs get called animation when they're

846
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: actually more like background art or storyboarding. Also, when I

847
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: was at Cartoon Network, my producer was a woman and

848
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: went on to basically run the studio that makes Robot Chicken,

849
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: So there's a plus for women in animation. With my

850
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: comic work, personally, I've never experienced sexism. In fact, I've

851
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: gotten nothing but respect. I'm sure that's not always the case.

852
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: For one thing, I never dressed up in cosplay personally,

853
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: I see it as unprofessional for an artist to do so.

854
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: I thought I might recommend a few very feminist friendly comics.

855
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: To name a few off the top of my head,

856
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,880
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