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Speaker 1: So you grew up in Virginia, but you've lived in

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Speaker 1: London for five years. Yes, I have some theories about

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Speaker 1: the differences between like men from London and men from

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Speaker 1: the state.

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Speaker 2: I've got some theories and some research as well.

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Speaker 1: Give me some things off the top of your head

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Speaker 1: before we get into all this.

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Speaker 2: So the thing that I study is men's friendships. So

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Speaker 2: I look at why so many men are disconnected from

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Speaker 2: other men and how men's lack of really deep community

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Speaker 2: affects heterosexuality at large, gender quality at large. And one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest things that we see is that about

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Speaker 2: one in five men in the US have no close friends. Wow, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's it's pretty That is a lot. It's a lot,

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Speaker 2: But in the UK it's more like one in three.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered why so many straight men seem

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Speaker 1: to not have many friends? Who do they talk to,

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Speaker 1: how do they unload what's keeping them from forming deep

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Speaker 1: emotional connections, and how does it affect our relationships with them.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're talking about today. I'm hopewordered and welcome

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Speaker 1: to voiceover a space where we're learning and unlearning all

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Speaker 1: the myths we're taught about love and relationships. Today's guest,

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Speaker 1: Angelica Ferrara, is a psychologist whose term man keeping when

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Speaker 1: viral last year. Angelica defines man keeping as the emotional

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Speaker 1: labor women often take on to make sure their male

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Speaker 1: partners have a full social and emotional life. If you're

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Speaker 1: a woman who's dated men, you might relate to this.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you've counseled your boyfriend through hard times, or encouraged

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Speaker 1: him to reach out to his friends more, or maybe

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Speaker 1: even set up his first therapy appointment for him. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you've even had to end relationships because this kind of

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Speaker 1: labor is unsustainable. Why does this relationship tend to be

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Speaker 1: the norm for heterosexual couples? And how can we interrogate

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Speaker 1: the patriarchy to fix it without making it the responsibility

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Speaker 1: of women? Of course, Angelica, welcome to boy Sober.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: How are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm good, It's so good to be here.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm happy to have you. Tell me a little

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Speaker 1: bit about your background, Like how did you find yourself

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Speaker 1: in this research?

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Speaker 2: When I was doing grad school here, I was working

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Speaker 2: with public school boys, looking at young boys friendships, so

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Speaker 2: middle school boys throughout the city, and what we saw

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Speaker 2: was that as boys aged, they tended to lose their friendships.

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Speaker 2: So they'd be eleven and talking about how other boys

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Speaker 2: are their whole worlds, and then when we talked to

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Speaker 2: them when they were fourteen, the story would change and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, those things were gay or it

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Speaker 2: was a girly. So as they were sort of being

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Speaker 2: initiated into manhood, they were getting these ideas that all

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Speaker 2: these things that made their lives fun and good and

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Speaker 2: gave them deep relationships other people for all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden qualities that they weren't supposed to show. And so

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Speaker 2: what I wanted to do in my work and what

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Speaker 2: I've been doing at Stanford and London School of Economics

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Speaker 2: where I am now looking at men's friendships. So what

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Speaker 2: happens is boys age? Do men keep their friendships? Why

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Speaker 2: do so many men have sort of a chronic sense

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Speaker 2: of insecurity around their relationship with other men?

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Speaker 1: And that's something I wouldn't expect so much. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk more about that men feeling insecure about their relationships

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Speaker 1: with other men?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, So part of what we see, like

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Speaker 2: when boys are aging from like late childhood into adolescents

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Speaker 2: is that there's this idea all of a sudden that

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Speaker 2: being close with another boy is gay, as if that's

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Speaker 2: a bad thing, if it was right. So part of

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Speaker 2: what happens as boys become men is this idea that

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Speaker 2: even just getting a coffee with another man sort of

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Speaker 2: a threat to my status? Is he going to think

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Speaker 2: I'm gay? Is there going to be a problem if

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Speaker 2: we have a face to face conversation just like the

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Speaker 2: one we're having now. So there's all these ideas about

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Speaker 2: shoulder to shoulder bonding. Right, Let's, I don't know, go

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Speaker 2: to a bar, Let's go on a drive, Let's go

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Speaker 2: on a game exactly. Faulty, yes, So there's not each

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Speaker 2: other exactly, so there's like an intermediary or but you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like a babysitter for the connection. And there's nothing

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Speaker 2: wrong with doing stuff together, right like, and many women

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Speaker 2: do stuff together and there's nothing wrong with that. But

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Speaker 2: it's that when I interview men and my research, they

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Speaker 2: talk about, well, I really wanted to ask him about

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Speaker 2: his depression. I really wanted to talk about his anxiety,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't want to bring him down. Or is

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Speaker 2: he going to think I'm gay if I'm asking him

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Speaker 2: about his deep feelings? These sorts of insecurities are so

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Speaker 2: so common among men, and it's part of this idea

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Speaker 2: of masculinity or what in my field we call masculine

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Speaker 2: norms we grew up with. Image is like sex and

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Speaker 2: the city, right, like sitting face to face at a table,

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Speaker 2: just disclosing about our lives. Right, These are the things

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Speaker 2: that so many men want but don't know how to

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Speaker 2: get and face just a really uphill battle in what

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Speaker 2: we consider like normal human experiences of just sharing what's

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Speaker 2: going on with you. So, I've seen what masculinity can

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Speaker 2: look like in such different ways across men in my life.

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Speaker 2: But it was when I was here dating in New York.

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Speaker 2: I dated a guy who had no friends, and this

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Speaker 2: was sort of this introduction to this concept that I

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Speaker 2: called mankeeping, which is basically this thing that the Internet

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Speaker 2: took hold of. And it was through talking about how

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Speaker 2: women end up facilitating men's friend groups, or they end

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Speaker 2: up teaching emotional skills, social and emotional skills to men

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Speaker 2: that men don't otherwise have because as women, we are

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Speaker 2: taught to do that in friendship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I do think that there is like a

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Speaker 1: societal permission for women to be emotional, right, and it's

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Speaker 1: like when we go too far, of course we're like

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Speaker 1: reprimanded for that, But tell me about mankeeping? How did

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Speaker 1: that come to life?

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Speaker 2: So when I was interviewing one hundred men throughout the

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Speaker 2: US and UK for my book that's coming out next year,

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Speaker 2: I would ask them can you talk about your close friendships?

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Speaker 2: And they would say, do you mean outside of my wife?

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Speaker 2: M do you mean outside my girlfriend?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: What do you candy mention it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the men you were looking for, did you intentionally

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Speaker 1: choose men with partners or were you just like random?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So I recruited randomly from community centers, from social media,

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Speaker 2: all different places. But then what ended up happening was

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Speaker 2: that so many men would show up to the interview

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Speaker 2: and being like, I don't know what we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about. My girlfriend actually sent me here.

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Speaker 1: Really.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The psychologist Terry Reel calls these wife mandated referrals,

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Speaker 2: which is how psychologists end up, you know, seeing men

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Speaker 2: is often through women in their lives who are bringing

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Speaker 2: them totally to us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes men would show up to my interviews and

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Speaker 2: really be sort of surprised why they were there. So

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Speaker 2: recruited this huge sample of men for my work, and

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Speaker 2: I asked them about closeness. I asked them about their

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Speaker 2: relationship with intimacy and the relationship with other men. And

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Speaker 2: it was through these questions that I sort of started

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Speaker 2: to get this sense of what do you mean when

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Speaker 2: talking about what it means to have a close friend? Right?

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Speaker 2: And so it was that that sort of tipped me

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Speaker 2: off that for the majority of men that I spoke to,

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Speaker 2: who they were telling there and there's nothing wrong with

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Speaker 2: having supportive partner, right, and.

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Speaker 1: No, but it's too much for one person, right.

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Speaker 2: And so I would ask men about, Okay, who are

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Speaker 2: you telling that to? And they would say, you know,

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Speaker 2: just my wife or my girlfriend, or sometimes it was

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Speaker 2: just a female friend, right, if they were single. And

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Speaker 2: then I would sometimes interview their partners, and what would

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Speaker 2: happen is that what one man was telling one woman,

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Speaker 2: she was telling eight or nine different people completely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what were the men saying in your interviews?

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Speaker 1: Were you getting men sort of to admit that they

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Speaker 1: want more emotional relationships? Like how to those conversations go?

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Speaker 2: You know, if they wanted to tell me, of course

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Speaker 2: about their struggles with this, right, Men who both had

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Speaker 2: really great friendships and Also, that's part of my work.

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Speaker 2: Even if we say that one out of five men

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Speaker 2: in the US doesn't have a close friend, who are

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Speaker 2: the four to five who do, and why aren't we

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Speaker 2: talking to them and hearing their stories? So that's what

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Speaker 2: I'm really trying to highlight. So men from really just

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Speaker 2: a cross backgrounds across race and class talked about this

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Speaker 2: really sense of like chronic surveillance that they were under

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Speaker 2: around their friends, right, this sense of if I show

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Speaker 2: affection for him, if I ask him to get coffee,

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Speaker 2: there's something bad that's going to happen to me.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: But men who had access to different models of masculinity,

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Speaker 2: whether they had a father who had really great friendships

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Speaker 2: and community, or in their particular cultural context, for example,

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Speaker 2: Dominican and Puerto Rican men my work often were really

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Speaker 2: expressive with their friends because they had models that were

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Speaker 2: that were more some wears. White men in my sample

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Speaker 2: tended to have fewer just metaphors, narrati and ideas and

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Speaker 2: stories where they saw men being affectionate with each other

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Speaker 2: and that not being a problem.

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Speaker 1: What systems are in place, do you feel like that

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Speaker 1: really keep this social dynamic at play.

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Speaker 2: So we've touched on a few of them. The first

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Speaker 2: big one is that we are still in a society

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Speaker 2: where masculine norms fail to provide men with the capacities

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Speaker 2: and competencies that will allow them to be happy in

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Speaker 2: their relationships.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to be kind of full fledged people.

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Speaker 2: So I mean, but this is what patriarchy does, is

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Speaker 2: that in exchange for what men get from patriarchy, they

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Speaker 2: have to give up parts of their humanity. But we

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Speaker 2: talk about that as if it's just men. But what

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to show in my work is that this

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Speaker 2: effects absolutely completely everybody, right, And that being in partnerships

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Speaker 2: with men, or deep friendships with men, or having mine

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Speaker 2: in your family this way, all of the ways that

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Speaker 2: patriarchy asks men to minim their personhood, their fundamental personhood,

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Speaker 2: completely affects all of us, right, Anyone who's a father,

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Speaker 2: anyone has a brother, a boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The other system that I was going to say is

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Speaker 2: like our social infrastructure, right, because remember that everybody is

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Speaker 2: more lonely than they were thirty forty years ago. All

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Speaker 2: these things that are making it harder for people to

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Speaker 2: feel like they're part of a village. That's affecting men

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Speaker 2: and women. But women historically have been relegated to having

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Speaker 2: their friendships be more in the private sphere. So sending

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Speaker 2: a text to check in on.

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Speaker 1: Somebody totally right, That makes sense, completely.

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Speaker 2: All all of this, and just doing the work to

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Speaker 2: put in seeing your friends. Historically women have been better

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Speaker 2: at that and men have relied on public space more

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Speaker 2: totally right. So as those public spaces decline after COVID,

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Speaker 2: and just as everything becomes privatized, right that, we have

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Speaker 2: a decline in parks and community centers and all these spaces,

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Speaker 2: and even like church, right like, people end up going

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Speaker 2: to spaces where they meet people less. This affects women's

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Speaker 2: friendships not as much as as x men. So we're

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Speaker 2: living in a patriarchy and like highly individualized social infrastructure

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Speaker 2: that doesn't give people what they need. There was this

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Speaker 2: sociologist named Carolyne Rosenthal. She coined this term called kinkeeping

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Speaker 2: can keeping can keeping k I N k I N.

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Speaker 2: What she wanted to talk about was how the majority

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Speaker 2: of labor in the family unit, who remembers birthdays, who

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Speaker 2: remembers that we should call grandma because she's sick, who

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Speaker 2: says we should take a photo after this dinner, or

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Speaker 2: I noticed somebody got upset at lunch and I should

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Speaker 2: follow up with them after all of that labor that

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Speaker 2: women usually do in the family. She called kinkeeping and

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Speaker 2: said it was an invisible part of labor that women

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Speaker 2: take on that men are often not aware of, and

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Speaker 2: that causes a burden a woman to do by themselves.

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Speaker 2: So we were looking at this phenomenon where men were

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Speaker 2: telling us that the whole of their emotional worlds was

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Speaker 2: women and talking to their partners who were saying, it's

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Speaker 2: a real burden on me for me to be that

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Speaker 2: one person.

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Speaker 1: It probably makes them like resent them so much.

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Speaker 2: So this is exactly it, right, is that it creates

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Speaker 2: like a really context for romantic love, right when somebody

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Speaker 2: has a really diverse network and somebody else has a

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Speaker 2: network that really isn't able to support their emotional needs

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Speaker 2: sometimes at all. Right, So we updated Rosenthal's term basically

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Speaker 2: to say, it's not just the family, this is really

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Speaker 2: about what's happening with men right now in this moment

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Speaker 2: where we see a huge drop off in men's close friendships.

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Speaker 2: So we called it mankeeping, and a bunch of people

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Speaker 2: were really mad about it.

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Speaker 1: Why do people get mad about it? And who got

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Speaker 1: mad about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Matt Walsh made a whole video about this,

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Speaker 2: the conservative influencer like tons of conservative magazine.

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Speaker 1: Why is you pissed about it?

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Speaker 2: He's pissed about it because not just him, but the

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Speaker 2: other people who have a problem with his research think

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Speaker 2: that what me and my research assistant are saying. We

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Speaker 2: are the ones who published this original paper. They think

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Speaker 2: that we're saying that two things. The first is that

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Speaker 2: there's something wrong with being your partner's emotional support, and

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Speaker 2: of course.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they sort of equated it to sort of

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Speaker 1: questioning God, there's something you know what this is?

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Speaker 2: Christianity is the second part, which is to say this

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Speaker 2: is actually women's role, right. So, for example, when this

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Speaker 2: research got into the Daily Mail, there were thousands of

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Speaker 2: women telling us, actually, what we're supposed to do as women, right,

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Speaker 2: and what the whole point of feminism is is to

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Speaker 2: just get us ask questions. We do things have to

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Speaker 2: be that way? Right? Okay, yeah, he has no friends,

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Speaker 2: but they were seeing it. Okay, that's my role, right

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Speaker 2: to remind him to text his friends, or to really

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Speaker 2: sit with him and help him understand his emotional experiences

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Speaker 2: and sort of act as a therapeutic role in men's lives.

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Speaker 2: What we were saying is does it have to be

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Speaker 2: that way and could be different?

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Speaker 1: And when this word sort of like hit headlines, what

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Speaker 1: was happening was two really strong reactions, women really resonating

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Speaker 1: and conservative news outlets really working against it.

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Speaker 2: Conservative news outlets and also a lot of men who

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Speaker 2: were commenting on these pieces and saying one like, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is women's sort of role in our lives to

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Speaker 2: do these things, and we're not being recognized for the

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Speaker 2: labor that we do, even though it's different labor. I

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Speaker 2: saw that as sort of a separate issue conversation, But

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Speaker 2: what was most important to me was that women from

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Speaker 2: all around the world. It's been translated into I think

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Speaker 2: like fifteen different languages now, whether it was Ukraine or

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Speaker 2: it was Columbia or Malaysia, women were talking about this

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Speaker 2: all around the world as validating of their experience and

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Speaker 2: having a term now to describe all the work that

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Speaker 2: they were doing to help the men in their lives

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Speaker 2: both have relationships and also to sort of teach them

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Speaker 2: the social and emotional skills that we expected women their

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Speaker 2: whole lives.

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Speaker 1: It feels like in these conservative like groups of men

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Speaker 1: they find connections.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I want to talk about that, but I'm interested.

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Speaker 1: They are to be emotional in those spaces.

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Speaker 2: Okay. In my world we call that homosocial bonding, right,

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Speaker 2: and there's this spectrum that we talk about between like

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Speaker 2: friendship and homoooticism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So one of the ways that these types of influencers

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Speaker 2: get men into their spaces is they're really aware that

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Speaker 2: men are lonely. They are really aware that so many

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Speaker 2: men want connection. So when Andrew Tate advertises his like

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Speaker 2: eight thousand dollars experience called the war Room, where men

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Speaker 2: do cage fighting in the Romanian mountains, what does he

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Speaker 2: say about it? He says, most men will not experience

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Speaker 2: that warm feeling of brotherhood and community. Right when the

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Speaker 2: army recruits people. Right in Britain, there are.

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Speaker 1: These ads called you belong here, It's all right.

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Speaker 2: So they leverage this. So what they're doing, what these

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Speaker 2: influences are doing, they're making bets on what men are

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Speaker 2: lonely enough to say yes to. And they are saying

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Speaker 2: they're selling men this vision of strength. But really they're

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Speaker 2: depending on men being incredibly vulnerable and submissive to their

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Speaker 2: ideas that makes me so sad. It's really sad. And

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Speaker 2: it's this sense that without these structures that men do

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Speaker 2: not have the places to find and form these things,

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Speaker 2: especially as I mean we see like our social infrastructure

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Speaker 2: thinning out, especially in the US, right, so the places

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Speaker 2: where men used to bond, even though those are really

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Speaker 2: problematic bonds in the past of like shutting women out

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Speaker 2: from public life, right, So now men rely on really

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Speaker 2: particular structures. One of the biggest ones that I think

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Speaker 2: about is as sports, which also allow ways for men

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Speaker 2: to touch each other. Right, So we know that men

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Speaker 2: touch each other more in professional sports than women do.

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Speaker 1: Mmm.

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Speaker 2: They're the way that they celebrate, the way that they

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Speaker 2: show their affection, the ass leupping the thenimes like the

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Speaker 2: dick bumping, like super homoerotic gestures.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: But as soon one of the men in my research says,

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Speaker 2: as soon as he's off the basketball court, he's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, the booty is not like available anymore. But

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Speaker 2: put him on that, put him on that, right, and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, it's it's fair game that they

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Speaker 2: can touch there.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So it's basically like these spaces sanction these ways of touch,

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Speaker 2: these ways of communing with each other, there always has

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Speaker 2: to be a reason. So, for example, men in my

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Speaker 2: research say, if I just call him on the phone

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Speaker 2: and be like, hey man, I missed you, they're worried

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Speaker 2: that that's going to be seen as just not okay,

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Speaker 2: going to be it's going to be weird. And boys

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Speaker 2: as young as twelve tell us that talking to a

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Speaker 2: girl about a problem makes them feel comfortable, but talking

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Speaker 2: to another boy about a problem makes them feel weird.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is like the anecdote to that,

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Speaker 1: to just have more conversations about it, Like how do

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Speaker 1: we bridge the gap?

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many things we could talk about,

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Speaker 2: but I think one of the biggest ones is that

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Speaker 2: we all need more metaphors and narratives and examples of

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Speaker 2: just visible pathways of how these things can look. Our

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Speaker 2: media is shaping our you know, just the landscape of

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Speaker 2: ideas that we like, what we can imagine as possible. Right, So,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think we keep coming back to this example,

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Speaker 2: but when I speak to men about what examples they

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Speaker 2: have of men discussing these issues, right, whether it be

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Speaker 2: sex or shame or something weak or even something like

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Speaker 2: silly and ridiculous, Right, things that they feel are sort

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Speaker 2: of within this realm of what women have been told,

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Speaker 2: Is there sort of remit men said, yeah, I've seen

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Speaker 2: examples of men as like arms dealers, together as like

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Speaker 2: buddy cops.

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Speaker 3: There's badly violence, get the core, and always a quest,

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Speaker 3: always a quest, a conquest for women for defeating evil,

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Speaker 3: for whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: Right, and so all those shoulder to shoulder connections that

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Speaker 2: we see in media, right. So I think it was

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Speaker 2: the it was the director of Fight Club when he

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Speaker 2: was asked about do you know that your film is

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Speaker 2: becoming an emblem of the far right? And he said, wow,

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Speaker 2: men really lack metaphors. So those ways that some ideas

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Speaker 2: about masculinity are super visible, right. So, Like obviously Andrew

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Speaker 2: ta is the one on everybody's sort of mind right now, right,

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Speaker 2: so he's super visible. His videos get into sometimes, like

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Speaker 2: I think, billions of views like absolutely crazy, right, But

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Speaker 2: men who provide these alternate masculinity models, who are speaking

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Speaker 2: with their friends about these things and just relating to

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Speaker 2: each other in different ways, those men are are way

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Speaker 2: more invisible in culture. So I think that's a really

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Speaker 2: big part of it is giving us more to imagine

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Speaker 2: about what relationships can look like and how men can

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Speaker 2: relate to each other, I would really want to start there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, did you talk to women about how it

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Speaker 1: feels when they really like let their partner get emotional

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Speaker 1: or when they are not serving in that role.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the first thing comes to mind is that

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Speaker 2: women who didn't have to do this labor tended to

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Speaker 2: be a lot happier in their relationships. They tended to

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Speaker 2: have more sex, they tended to have stronger mental health.

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Speaker 2: So when they were not doing that labor versus super

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Speaker 2: unequal dynamics and couples that were really like the woman

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Speaker 2: is the keeper of emotions. She's the keeper of the

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Speaker 2: emotional life and inner world of the guys she's with.

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Speaker 2: Those women tended to be less happy, less satisfied with

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Speaker 2: their relationships than women who were in partnerships with men

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Speaker 2: who had a lot of other people to rely on,

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Speaker 2: just young them.

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Speaker 1: Right, what do you think a woman's responsibility is in

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Speaker 1: all of this? Like, how does someone take this into

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Speaker 1: account when they're dating?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: What are we meant to do about so hard?

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Speaker 2: You know what?

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Speaker 1: I mean? What can I do? Like, I know it's

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Speaker 1: not I know, it's not my responsibility to save a man.

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Speaker 1: I know it's not my responsibility to do the emotional

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Speaker 1: work for them, even though I kind of like doing

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Speaker 1: it sometimes, But what can we do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So one of the things that is now a

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Speaker 2: question when I meet men or I'm interested in dating

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Speaker 2: a man, is I ask HI about his community, Right,

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Speaker 2: I'm asking him about who is in his life, who

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Speaker 2: knows him deeply, who loves him, who are the people

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Speaker 2: around him? So that being in the same way that

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Speaker 2: we think about finding someone who we think is attractive,

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Speaker 2: to really think of community as a part of what

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Speaker 2: it means for a man to be attractive and seen

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Speaker 2: as someone we might want in our lives. So I

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Speaker 2: think that awareness is important. And I also think what

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Speaker 2: I hope that this work does is just get women

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Speaker 2: to really interrogate whether that emotional work is serving them

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Speaker 2: in the way that I really think patriarchy has told

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Speaker 2: us that it might. Yeah. So when I love when

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Speaker 2: my work is covered in conservative newspapers, for example, in

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Speaker 2: the UK, it's in the Telegraph where there's women in

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Speaker 2: their seventies saying I know something about that, right, They're like, uh, wait,

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Speaker 2: that's where he doesn't have any friends. Yes, And I'm

433
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Speaker 2: the one who's setting up his dinners with his friends, right,

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Speaker 2: he's talking about me. But that like when those wheels

435
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Speaker 2: start turning, that's like a huge honor for me in

436
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Speaker 2: my work. Is like that little interrogation is like those

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00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 2: seeds that get planted, I think are super powerful. So

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Speaker 2: I think just the openness to saying are men's social

439
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 2: networks and the thinness of those networks? Is that something

440
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Speaker 2: that is affecting me?

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Speaker 1: Right? Of course? Yeah, what do you say to a

442
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,239
Speaker 1: woman who's maybe in the midst of mankeeping, like do

443
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: you yes, it's about interrogation, do you? It's like is

444
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: sending your boyfriend on a date with another man? Like

445
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: the emotional labor, Like, how do you talk to someone

446
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: about that situation?

447
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I want I want women to I

448
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: don't want women to take a more labor as a

449
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 2: result of sort of learning about these dynamics. I want

450
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 2: them to feel empowered by having language and basically having

451
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: a new set of expectations or those can be gently introduced. Right,

452
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 2: but that I expect you maybe not said in those words,

453
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 2: but it would be really great if you were talking

454
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,880
Speaker 2: to someone else about this beyond me. And also, who

455
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 2: do you talk about me too, right, because like sometimes

456
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 2: you also need to just talk about whatever it is

457
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 2: that's going on with your partner, And women have tons

458
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: of people to do that with typically, and men only

459
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: have them or a very small group of people. So

460
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 2: I think that to the degree that women can without

461
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: compromising their own time and wellbeing, helping men see their

462
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 2: own examples of friendship is really really powerful. Like here's

463
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: how I do it with my friends, or okay, when

464
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 2: my friends share something really difficult, these are the questions

465
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: that I might ask. So for example, when I talk

466
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: to men, they say, well, you know, well he said,

467
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: you know, his grandma was in hospice and I just said, dude,

468
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 2: that sucks, and that was the end of the conversation. Right.

469
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 2: This is not because the men don't care about each other. Right,

470
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: This is because there's really not a guide book of

471
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 2: social and emotional skills that they have access to as

472
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: adult men. Whereas like we're talking about sex and the

473
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 2: city or whatever it is, all these examples that we

474
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: have example about just how do you have this sort

475
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 2: of relational intelligence about you know, someone shares something really

476
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: difficult with you, what do you say?

477
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: Right?

478
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 2: So I think modeling friendships is one thing that feels

479
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: really powerful and doesn't feel as labor intensive, saying I

480
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: am literally texting this person for you and you're going

481
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 2: to go to this bar at this time, which which,

482
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: by the way, many women do. I know it can

483
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 2: feel like really impossible to imagine. For I don't know

484
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 2: women living in cities or who have just access to

485
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: different narratives, but I speak to a lot of women

486
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 2: in the middle of the country or in rural England

487
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: who are really facilitating every single part of themn's social life. Right,

488
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: So those sorts of patterns like I mean, I think

489
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: it's that shouldn't be the way things are.

490
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: What do you think is most important for us to

491
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: sort of collectively unlearn when it comes to this conversation.

492
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing that I want women to

493
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: take away from my work and the way that the

494
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 2: man keeping term has come to exist in the culture

495
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: it is really is questioning of is it the case

496
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 2: that things have to be that way? Right? I have

497
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: to run my relationships like that. So when speaking about models,

498
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: I want to be other models for what a really

499
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 2: happy heterosexual bond can look like. So, and that's not

500
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: just obviously about dating, it's also about my friendships with men,

501
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: starting to think about, well, he doesn't really ask me questions, right,

502
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: even even male friends.

503
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: Right.

504
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: I noticed this with so many of my male friends. Right,

505
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, I think he was speaking eighty five

506
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: percent of the time. So I'm trying to be more

507
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 2: courageous with my friends and say like, I'm noticing that

508
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 2: I'm doing this like care work for you, and I'm

509
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: really good at it, and I love you and I

510
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: want to be there for you. But I'm also noticing that,

511
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: you know, there's some questions that I want to be

512
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: asked to, and I'm wondering if you wonder about my

513
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: internal space. So I'm trying to do this in my

514
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 2: own world as well. It's just like tell the men

515
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: in my life what these things are like, and then

516
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: think about, Okay, how could it could it be? So

517
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: I have a lot of really great friendships with men,

518
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: but my deepest relationships are with women.

519
00:26:59,400 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: Of course.

520
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so qualitative, way different.

521
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Yeah, because I'm thinking even about in

522
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: dating as well. It's like I was just dating a

523
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 1: guy and I was kind of thinking like, wow, his

524
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: ability to go on and on and never asked me

525
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: a question back. Is literally so impressive, and I never

526
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: called him out for it. I just broke up with him.

527
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay, I have a story about this great

528
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: I went on a date with a man over the

529
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: summer and I had this exact same experience, and I

530
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 2: think he spoke ninety five percent of the time. And

531
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: I didn't have the courage on the date to say

532
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 2: I just I just couldn't tell it to his face, right.

533
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: And then I got a message after being like, I'd

534
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: love to see you again, and I was like, literally,

535
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: what does this person know about it?

536
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: I mean, that's like such a common experience. It's such

537
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: as women being like, you'll like me, you like me,

538
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: because all I did was mirror.

539
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: Actually, I was like responsive and that you enjoyed.

540
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

541
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: So I sent him a message and I listed out

542
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 2: all the things I learned about him, and I that

543
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 2: I loved learning about your relationship with your brother. I

544
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: loved like learning about like, I don't know the gigs

545
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: you went to last summer, And I said, but I

546
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 2: think you spoke probably ninety five percent of the time,

547
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: and I'm really surprised that you want to see me again.

548
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: And I was so surprised at his response because he

549
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: was so receptive and he said, I am so mortified.

550
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: Well that's such a sweet way to say that, he.

551
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 2: Said, I am so mortified. Thank you so much for

552
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 2: telling me. Yeah, and he found it really really helpful.

553
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: So I want to say that about not just dating.

554
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 2: So in friendships with men I've seen too this like

555
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, thank you for telling me, right,

556
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: and it's done in a loving way of like I

557
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: want you to like not do this to other women,

558
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: like and also if it's a relationship that continues with

559
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: a friend like that, things can change between us and

560
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: then we don't have to lose friendships or have weird

561
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: distance and friend breakups that are for like elusive reasons

562
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 2: instead of just being able to have that conversation. And

563
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: of course that is asking like usually more work on

564
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: women's behalf, but I think that we also benefit a

565
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: lot from calling it out.

566
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: Maybe that's the difference. It's like there's emotional work that

567
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: ultimately like works towards a goal that is mutually beneficial,

568
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: and then there is emotional work that keeps you in

569
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: this very specific role, right, this very specific like dynamic.

570
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: I also think that in the way that so many

571
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: men are more receptive than we might imagine to that feedback.

572
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: When men take this step with other men in their

573
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: lives to be more vulnerable, to show weakness, to just

574
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: do something offside outside of the script. Often that's taken

575
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: with so much relief, of course, and so much yes, yeah, right,

576
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 2: and that fear that feels like I'm about to jump

577
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: off a cliff is actually like, oh wait, the ground

578
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: is like just two inches below what I thought it was.

579
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: And so many times I'll talk to men and be like, yeah,

580
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: he asked me if I wanted to to get lunch right,

581
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: and and there's being like so much excitement about that.

582
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: So thinking about like who is the friend who you

583
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: could have that conversation with to maybe ask about that

584
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: thing that you know he's dealing with but you think

585
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: it maybe going to bring it down or that it's

586
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 2: not okay. So like that courage is I think something

587
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: that everybody needs a little bit more of, right for

588
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: asks women to like say like, hey, like I would

589
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: love more of this like between us, like how do

590
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: we get there? Because it's does not feel good to

591
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: me and it's not sustainable for me. And I'm actually

592
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: just going to like, you know.

593
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: Run out.

594
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna I'm just gonna be Yeah, it's going

595
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: to get you to a certain point. But as well

596
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: with with men being able to say, like actually like

597
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: the things that we do together, like I want to

598
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: do more things right?

599
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: Right?

600
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: Can I just call you totally when I want to

601
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: write so like establishing these new norms, like so many

602
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: more men than we estimate are ready for those things

603
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: and craving them, wanting them, there's such an appetite for it.

604
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: Let me ask you, on a personal level, what is

605
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: one thing you've had to unlearn about love yourself?

606
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: I think like the it's related to everything we've been

607
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: talking about, but with the man keeping stuff, like when

608
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: there was a point in my life where I really

609
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: liked being the center of a man's emotional world. And

610
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: I remember with the particular man who was the impetus

611
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: to this research, I was really like the center of

612
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: this man's world. And I remember he was I mean,

613
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: he was super successful, he was a startup founder, he

614
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: super handsome, it's so much going for him, but he

615
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: didn't really have that many people in his life, right,

616
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: And I loved that, like the intimacy that we had,

617
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: Like it almost felt like a privilege, right, Like I

618
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: had this privileged space with him, and that made me

619
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: feel really chosen. Bell Hooks talks a lot about this,

620
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: where like we're told that like being chosen by men

621
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: gives us a sense of value, right, And so I

622
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: really had that with him. But then at some point

623
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: he was really really stressed and in need of a bigger community.

624
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: I think his company had failed to raise the money

625
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: that they needed and everything was to fall apart. And

626
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,959
Speaker 2: I remember him saying to me and Jelica, are the

627
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: only good thing in my life. That felt like someone

628
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: was sitting on my chest, right, And I remember thinking

629
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 2: in that moment, I remember thinking I could name five

630
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: hundred good things about my life, but I didn't want

631
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: to say that to him.

632
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: You're like, and this is embarrassing. Yeah, yeah, I'm not

633
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: saying this is a cool thing for you.

634
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: No, not completely. It was too much pressure for pressure,

635
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: and he only had access to my opinion about things,

636
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: and those things that we're talking about, like empathy and

637
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: perspective taking in conflict resolution were things that felt so

638
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: foreign to him because he hadn't practiced them in his friendships. Right,

639
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: So having a really difficult conversation with something that just

640
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: felt so new, so foreign, that he had to upscill

641
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: a lot to be in a relationship. So when I

642
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 2: would run into men like this when I was dating,

643
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: it became a red flag for me. So I've had

644
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: to unlearn that sense that men's isolation makes me special.

645
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah, right, you get a little bit low key,

646
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: little chill bumps. I've got because I think so many

647
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: women and as you were talking, I was wondering, like,

648
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: I wonder if truthfully, collectively we have stepped away from

649
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: that narrative.

650
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: Yes, right, I think we are. I think we are

651
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: stepping away.

652
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: I need your second book.

653
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'm sorry.

654
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: I need that to be your next piesis Okay, Girls,

655
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: we need to be more upfront with men in our

656
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: lives to stop making their emotional labor our problems. So

657
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: let's hope men heal this year. I have hope for them.

658
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: Thank you to Angelica for talking about this with us.

659
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: She is doing the good work, and I would love

660
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: to talk to her more about male friendships because I

661
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Speaker 1: think we've only scratched the surface until then. Thanks for listening,

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Speaker 1: and I'll talk to y'all next week. Boy Sover is

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hopewordard. Our

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Speaker 1: executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising

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Speaker 1: producer is Emily Meronoff. Our assistant producer is Logan Palau.

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Speaker 1: Engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Abu Zafar.

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Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and

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Speaker 1: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Boys Sober

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Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows