WEBVTT - Jasper Hoffman, Part 2 - Undercover Therapy, Leaving the Mennonites, and the Aftermath

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<v Speaker 1>Trust me. Do you trust me?

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<v Speaker 2>Right?

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<v Speaker 3>Everly?

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<v Speaker 4>And he was right? Trust This is the truth, the

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<v Speaker 4>only truth.

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<v Speaker 2>If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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<v Speaker 2>welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults and extreme

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<v Speaker 2>belief and manipulation from two not so plain people who

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<v Speaker 2>actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and I'm Meg

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<v Speaker 2>and Elizabeth. This week, we're back with Jasper Hoffman, writer, podcaster,

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<v Speaker 2>and former Mennonite in part two. Today, she's going to

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<v Speaker 2>talk to us about what the perfect woman looked like

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<v Speaker 2>in Mennonite culture, how concerns were raised about Jasper for

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<v Speaker 2>not being compliant enough, and how overtime she became depressed

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<v Speaker 2>and developed an eating disorder in response to the pressures

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<v Speaker 2>of the group.

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<v Speaker 5>She'll share how her mom secretly found her a therapist

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<v Speaker 5>on the outside, even though it was against the rules,

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<v Speaker 5>and how that therapist helped to write a letter to

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<v Speaker 5>withdraw her Mennonite membership, which led to the harassment of

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<v Speaker 5>her family. We'll talk about how she tried to go

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<v Speaker 5>back after she left but realized she really didn't belong,

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<v Speaker 5>and why she started the Plain People's.

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<v Speaker 2>Podcast Megan, before we get back into it with Jasper,

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<v Speaker 2>learning all about plain people. Can you tell me what

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<v Speaker 2>your cultius thing is this week? Yeah, my cultist thing

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<v Speaker 2>this week is I'm looking into this guy. His name

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<v Speaker 2>is Nikita Tukulo.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm sure I'm saying that a bit off, but he

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<v Speaker 5>is being held right now on a five million dollar bond,

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<v Speaker 5>which stood out to me because that's quite high.

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<v Speaker 1>And he had a hype house.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm gonna call it a hype house, but a content

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<v Speaker 5>house maybe that's more reasonable and only fans house, you know.

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<v Speaker 5>And I've been so curious about how all of these

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<v Speaker 5>houses are going to shake out when all is said

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<v Speaker 5>and done, because you have a bunch of people living

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<v Speaker 5>together creating content. I'm sure it can be done in

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<v Speaker 5>a healthy way. But like a lot of times, I'm like,

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<v Speaker 5>that sounds like a cult, would you.

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<v Speaker 2>Agree, Well, that sounds like everywhere you've ever lived, So

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<v Speaker 2>you mean me personally, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not living at one right now, and I'm so sad.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean, I guess I do love living in

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<v Speaker 5>houses with a bunch of people, but we're not creating content,

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<v Speaker 5>but you are creating music and like well, videos are. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>but this in particular was a little bit more intense

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<v Speaker 5>because he was basically isolating women and having them create

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<v Speaker 5>sex content and then stealing all of their money and

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<v Speaker 5>threatening to kill them if they didn't comply to his

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<v Speaker 5>very course of rules.

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<v Speaker 1>Also, this man is twenty two years old. Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so just a mini little cult leader and the

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<v Speaker 5>making really high bail, which makes me think a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of stuff is going to start coming to light. People

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<v Speaker 5>have been drawing parallels to the Playboy mansion, but on steroids,

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<v Speaker 5>like one woman made two hundred and thirty thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 5>one year and it was all withheld from her.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it went under something like Nova Talent Management, so

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<v Speaker 5>it sounded very real and you know, would get people

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<v Speaker 5>in anyway. I love, as you said, living in houses

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<v Speaker 5>with a bunch of people who love creating things. I

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<v Speaker 5>don't make content per se, but you know it can

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<v Speaker 5>go wrong, and often does.

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<v Speaker 1>It just pisses me off. I mean whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Anytime anyone is a bad person to people, obviously that's

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<v Speaker 2>that is angering. But what's cool about OnlyFans in theory

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<v Speaker 2>and often in practice, is that it gives a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of women the opportunity to take control of their lives

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<v Speaker 2>if they want to gauge in like some version of

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<v Speaker 2>adult content totally where no one's like telling them what

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<v Speaker 2>to do. So when these guys come in and they

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<v Speaker 2>take over and then they you know, essentially start trafficking

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<v Speaker 2>women for OnlyFans, it's like, no, that's.

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<v Speaker 6>The whole opposite of the point of only fans.

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<v Speaker 5>And they're making like their own bots of women that

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<v Speaker 5>are just AI created, and you know, it's we could

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<v Speaker 5>do a whole podcast on the subject.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure whenever a bunch.

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<v Speaker 5>Of money is involved, you're going to find people being

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<v Speaker 5>predatory and trying to control people.

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<v Speaker 1>So curious to see how this shakes out.

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<v Speaker 5>He's been speaking in Russian over the phone trying to

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<v Speaker 5>get people to move all the money. And there was

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<v Speaker 5>a kind of funny quote or one of the police

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<v Speaker 5>agents was like, we have people here who speak Russian,

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<v Speaker 5>and it's just like kind of funny. He was like,

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<v Speaker 5>this is a secret language that I guess that they had,

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<v Speaker 5>like a Russian guy on the police force.

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<v Speaker 1>Hilarious.

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<v Speaker 5>Anyway, I was reading a lot about it, and I

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<v Speaker 5>wouldn't be surprised if some of it kind of involves

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<v Speaker 5>spirituality in a weird way, or.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, I mean, there is something wild and absolutely plausible

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<v Speaker 2>at the same time about the idea of like an

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<v Speaker 2>OnlyFans coercive trafficker who is also like it's under the

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<v Speaker 2>guy's spirituality, Like I'm sure that's happening as we speak.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, and by spirituality I just mean almost like prosperity gospel, yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>and prying on people's wants and needs and taking it

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<v Speaker 5>to the limit. So something to keep your eye on.

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<v Speaker 5>And I'm curious to see how this will keep developing. Yeah, Lola,

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<v Speaker 5>what's your cultiest thing of the week.

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<v Speaker 6>It's it's very just silly.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh good, it's.

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<v Speaker 6>An article a little overblown.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>The article is called the most disturbing cult like towns

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<v Speaker 2>in America you should avoid, Oh bye, Crystal Row. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is on yahoo dot com, but I do up

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<v Speaker 2>there sometimes you google cult and most of these I

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<v Speaker 2>think this is like from a Reddit thread, Like oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>this is just an article repeating people's posts on a

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<v Speaker 2>Reddit thread.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's not hard hitting journalism here.

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<v Speaker 2>But it is a list of basically like everywhere anyone

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<v Speaker 2>has ever felt weird. So there's like the actual cult

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<v Speaker 2>connected town. So there's Clearwater, Florida, which is like the

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<v Speaker 2>scientology hub there's Moscow, Idaho, where there's a controversial church

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<v Speaker 2>whose leader has openly talked about wanting.

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<v Speaker 1>To create a theocracy.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, they're called christ Church, and yeah, it's just like

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<v Speaker 2>a super Christian nationalist thing with really crazy beliefs. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>Colorado City is.

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<v Speaker 1>On the list.

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<v Speaker 2>My mom's town Island pon Vermont, where twelve tribes are

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<v Speaker 2>and there's like the Yellow Deli restaurants there. And then

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<v Speaker 2>there's a bunch that are like, oh yeah, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of neo Nazis in this town and they were scary.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there's a bunch that are like, for some reason,

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<v Speaker 2>there are like eight different people sharing a really similar

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<v Speaker 2>story in different places in rural America where they walk

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<v Speaker 2>into a diner and then nobody speaks and everybody just

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<v Speaker 2>stares at them silently the entire time, which is not

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<v Speaker 2>a cult thing. I think that's just a country thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Like why are they outsiders in my you know we

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<v Speaker 2>when people never come through here.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's just that.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's so many people who shared that like exact story,

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<v Speaker 2>it's confuted. Ah, I guess. I guess small towns are

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<v Speaker 2>kind of culty. Yeah, I mean totally. They're insulated communities.

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<v Speaker 2>Often there's like weird hierarchies going on with you know,

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<v Speaker 2>who's at the top of the ladder that week or whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so one of them was in powers Organ.

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<v Speaker 2>The person wrote stopped in the diner for coffee once

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<v Speaker 2>on a drive through. I shit, you not like straight

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<v Speaker 2>out of a movie. The other patrons just turned and

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<v Speaker 2>quietly stared, not touching their plates until we left. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know why so many people are having this experience.

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<v Speaker 2>But oh, same thing in northern Minnesota. Same thing in Dodgeville, Wisconsin,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was at a bowling alley.

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<v Speaker 1>I am from a rural town in Michigan.

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<v Speaker 2>And also my mom lives in one of these towns

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<v Speaker 2>that before she ever lived there, like, I went and

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<v Speaker 2>visited because we'd heard all these weird things about these

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<v Speaker 2>people who followed you. But then, of course, now that

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<v Speaker 2>we know more about these people in this town, they're

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<v Speaker 2>just like mostly lovely and anyway, it's interesting what we

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<v Speaker 2>project onto the mystery of like a small town that

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<v Speaker 2>we don't know about.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, Jasper has a lot to say about communities that

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<v Speaker 5>are up the grid.

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<v Speaker 1>Shall I speak to her?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 5>What does the perfect Mennonite woman look like perfect, perfect,

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<v Speaker 5>perfect hair.

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<v Speaker 4>Everything is like beautifully jest, enough of a swoop, not

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<v Speaker 4>a single hair out of place.

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<v Speaker 1>It is the stepbird wife.

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<v Speaker 4>Your your dress is immaculate for us, our print size

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<v Speaker 4>had to be smaller than a quarter, so the flower

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<v Speaker 4>had to be like fit inside the quarter. It was

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<v Speaker 4>always like a pastel color, a little bit of ruffle,

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<v Speaker 4>but not too much ruffle. She was very svelt and graceful,

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<v Speaker 4>and her mannerisms were small, and she was very quiet

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<v Speaker 4>but yet personable and warm. She had the perfect Guatemalin

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<v Speaker 4>sweater and her her shoes were like hush puppies, not sass.

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<v Speaker 4>And she had perfect Mennonite handwriting and she would write

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<v Speaker 4>little notes.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you have the bonnet?

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<v Speaker 4>I had the white head covering. Yeah, And then I

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<v Speaker 4>ended up buying like I had a custom made black bonnet,

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<v Speaker 4>drove to Pennsylvania to have one made for me. I

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<v Speaker 4>still have that too.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 4>But that was my way of trying to be even

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<v Speaker 4>more in compliance with the t because it was like, Okay, well,

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<v Speaker 4>if I have a bonnet, then they can't say that

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<v Speaker 4>I'm trying to be too liberal. They had an issue

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<v Speaker 4>with my I have two calics, and so my hair

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<v Speaker 4>was a little bit too swoopy.

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<v Speaker 7>These people are the swoop is the point in your

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<v Speaker 7>guys's culture, Yes, but it's like in us, it's like

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<v Speaker 7>it can't look like you're swooping.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. As in like the bump at the top,

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<v Speaker 2>is that the swoop? Okay in question, that's okay, which

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<v Speaker 2>is similar to the FLDS, but it's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>smaller because the FLDS bump would be too high, way

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<v Speaker 2>too high.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I call it the fundy swoop. But it's funny.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm friends with a lot of like FLDS scals, and

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<v Speaker 4>I found out the recipe that they used to like

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<v Speaker 4>put their hair in place.

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<v Speaker 1>What is it.

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<v Speaker 4>It's like corn starch with honey and all of this,

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<v Speaker 4>and they use it and like one of my girlfriends recently,

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<v Speaker 4>she's like the flies would warm around the hair.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my goodness.

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<v Speaker 4>So we used Aquinette, Like, so we didn't do that.

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<v Speaker 6>Okay, smaller smooth, no honey required.

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<v Speaker 5>I noticed that a lot of these different groups have

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<v Speaker 5>a different voice. Was the woman's voice supposed to be

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<v Speaker 5>like kind of Michelle Duggery where it's kind of a baby.

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<v Speaker 4>It is a very baby voice. Yes, like because there's

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<v Speaker 4>also like this, you have a Pennsylvania Dutch accent. So

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<v Speaker 4>they'll say things and they end things with a question.

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<v Speaker 4>So if they say goodbye, it's goodbye like it's the

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<v Speaker 4>sing song.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like you're doing ASMR right now. It's good

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<v Speaker 2>making my brain it's a question goodbye. There's a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of a I say this all the time.

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<v Speaker 4>Is it all? Is it all gone? They'll just drop

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<v Speaker 4>a word, so is it all? Is very common?

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<v Speaker 1>Is it all? How interesting?

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<v Speaker 4>But everything sings song? Is it all? So they'll raise

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<v Speaker 4>the note at the very end.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's interesting. What was it that led you to act?

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<v Speaker 2>Actually start to consider that maybe this wasn't the lifestyle

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<v Speaker 2>for you.

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<v Speaker 4>Around this time, after I was not invited back to school,

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<v Speaker 4>there were ongoing concerns about me. Right, and so I'm

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<v Speaker 4>up for baptism, which they link membership with baptism. While

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<v Speaker 4>they would consider you a Christian and you're wearing a

0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.600
<v Speaker 4>head covering at the time, you can't greet each other

0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:24.720
<v Speaker 4>with a holy kiss, you can't partake in communion of

0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.760
<v Speaker 4>feet washing until you're baptized into the church. So they

0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:33.200
<v Speaker 4>will have what's called council meeting a month beforehand, where

0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.480
<v Speaker 4>the bishop will come into town and it's a regular

0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.240
<v Speaker 4>church service. But then at the end of that, there's

0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:43.760
<v Speaker 4>two rooms up front of the sanctuary. You could say,

0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.320
<v Speaker 4>the ministry will be in there and the bishop, and

0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.520
<v Speaker 4>there will be small sections of people. It's segregated seating,

0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.319
<v Speaker 4>I should say this. So they'll start with men. They'll

0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.839
<v Speaker 4>have the men go in and it's normally two or

0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.360
<v Speaker 4>three rows at a time, and so you will go

0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:02.120
<v Speaker 4>around and answer are the questions of the bishop. And

0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:06.040
<v Speaker 4>then that's when you can raise any concern about anybody

0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.520
<v Speaker 4>that is coming into the church or in the church

0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.720
<v Speaker 4>in general. If there's a concern about an applicant aka

0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.079
<v Speaker 4>me coming in, they'll note that and then at the

0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.080
<v Speaker 4>very end of council meeting, the bishop will come up

0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:23.120
<v Speaker 4>and then he will share what the concerns are. They

0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:24.280
<v Speaker 4>won't say who it is.

0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:25.319
<v Speaker 1>Oh, it's like.

0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:31.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's like av right, but you had to

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.800
<v Speaker 2>apply even though you'd been a member, Like can you

0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:36.079
<v Speaker 2>explain what that is?

0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:41.640
<v Speaker 4>So you can stand up during revival service to become

0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.600
<v Speaker 4>a Christian. They'll take you down to the basement. Afterwards

0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.640
<v Speaker 4>they will pray with you, and at that point you

0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:52.000
<v Speaker 4>will then begin your instruction class with the intention of

0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:52.959
<v Speaker 4>joining the church.

0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.199
<v Speaker 1>So you will look Mennonite, but you won't be Mennonite.

0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.439
<v Speaker 4>Until you go through instruction class and then are baptized

0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:01.120
<v Speaker 4>into the church.

0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So even though you'd been in since you were

0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:07.560
<v Speaker 2>nine years old, you were not technically a member, right wow.

0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.360
<v Speaker 4>Okay, Which that is a big part of the Anabaptist

0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 4>religion is that they don't believe in infant baptism. So

0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.600
<v Speaker 4>that's where they separated from the Lutheran Church during the

0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.840
<v Speaker 4>Great Reformation was because they believed. That's why they're called

0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:28.480
<v Speaker 4>the anti Baptists the Anabaptist So, yeah, depending on the

0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:32.600
<v Speaker 4>age and the type of church, it's more common in

0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.480
<v Speaker 4>the Homish churches to join later on as a teen,

0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:37.960
<v Speaker 4>but the Mennonites it's normally like.

0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.960
<v Speaker 1>Traditionally kind of like early teen okay.

0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.280
<v Speaker 4>But yeah, so you can be raised in the church,

0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.640
<v Speaker 4>but then until you're a church member, you don't have

0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:51.280
<v Speaker 4>as much expectation placed on you. So when you're an

0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.920
<v Speaker 4>instruction class, that's when you're proving that you were worthy

0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:57.160
<v Speaker 4>of church membership and baptism.

0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So the two by two is very similar how

0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:00.560
<v Speaker 1>I grew up.

0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.280
<v Speaker 5>You had to stand up in a packed room to

0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 5>like profess your allegiance to this group in Christianity, in

0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:10.880
<v Speaker 5>christ and then when you were older, you had to

0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.040
<v Speaker 5>choose to be baptized because the most evil thing in

0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.240
<v Speaker 5>the world was baptizing a baby. That's like such a

0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.520
<v Speaker 5>horrible thing to do for them. And my sister I

0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.240
<v Speaker 5>didn't get baptized because I don't know. I just was like, no, oh,

0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.000
<v Speaker 5>I know, Lola's like, we got to get you baptized.

0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.600
<v Speaker 5>Oh I got baptized at your party. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 5>I forgot.

0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.320
<v Speaker 1>I forgot I'm baptized and baptized.

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.760
<v Speaker 5>Okay, so but but my sister, who's younger than me,

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.680
<v Speaker 5>did get baptized. We would do it on like farm

0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.160
<v Speaker 5>lakes at convention. And my sister walked into the lake

0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.560
<v Speaker 5>and tripped and fell into the water, came up and

0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:46.560
<v Speaker 5>she goes, I baptized myself.

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.800
<v Speaker 1>I was like dead quiet. That was so bad.

0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:54.640
<v Speaker 4>One of my really one of my really great friends.

0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 4>He grew up pretty conservative mana night, but he was

0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.520
<v Speaker 4>never baptized. So recently he was baptized by one of

0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.080
<v Speaker 4>his friends as she was dressed like Lady Gaga and

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:04.360
<v Speaker 4>so in Vegas.

0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.760
<v Speaker 1>So amazing. Yeah, yeah, exactly, that's kind of what happened.

0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:09.840
<v Speaker 2>A Yeah, Igon got baptized in the pool at my

0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.200
<v Speaker 2>album releasehipah, it was great, amazing.

0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:14.480
<v Speaker 1>I forgot about that.

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, yeah, so you're an applicant and they're like

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.480
<v Speaker 2>an applicant who shall not be named, but we all

0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:26.320
<v Speaker 2>know exactly who it is is not worthy of aggressive preaching.

0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.360
<v Speaker 1>It's awful. What were the reasons that they were giving.

0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.320
<v Speaker 4>I think it's the concern that I had a horse

0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:34.560
<v Speaker 4>and that.

0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.920
<v Speaker 1>I know how unrighteous of you.

0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.000
<v Speaker 4>I was uncontrollable. They couldn't control me. I mean, I

0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:45.840
<v Speaker 4>could give you a list of the reasons, but ultimately,

0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:48.600
<v Speaker 4>probably because they knew that I would become who I

0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:52.760
<v Speaker 4>am today of exposing them for the same things. I

0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:56.720
<v Speaker 4>was ungovernable, even though I was trying so hard, they

0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.000
<v Speaker 4>just couldn't nail me down. And I mean I ultimate

0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.400
<v Speaker 4>was baptized the following months, so it was a great

0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.320
<v Speaker 4>fu to them where I was like, see I did it.

0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.119
<v Speaker 4>It was so performance striven, but I had to strip

0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:14.359
<v Speaker 4>myself into just focusing on this goal, which was becoming

0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.479
<v Speaker 4>a member of the church and it didn't matter what

0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:18.159
<v Speaker 4>it costs.

0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.280
<v Speaker 1>I just had to do it, and I did it.

0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.640
<v Speaker 4>And then what it psychologically did was just I never

0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.719
<v Speaker 4>had the space to recover from the pressure of that.

0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.879
<v Speaker 4>And then then it was like more additional pressure because

0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.760
<v Speaker 4>now I'm in Now I got to keep it. Yeah,

0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.320
<v Speaker 4>and it's like, oh, that's so much on a teenager.

0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 4>I mean, so much on anybody, but like as a teenager,

0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:45.040
<v Speaker 4>it was extremely brutal. I mean, obviously it was like depressed,

0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:50.439
<v Speaker 4>but it just became worse because they started isolating me.

0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.480
<v Speaker 4>So already I've been pulled out of school, so there's

0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.160
<v Speaker 4>something wrong with me, and I've made it into the church.

0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.760
<v Speaker 4>But at that point they started talking about trying to

0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:05.080
<v Speaker 4>send me to a facility, one of their wellness mental

0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:10.119
<v Speaker 4>health places to help me become more compliant and to

0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.520
<v Speaker 4>help me out. And my dad was all for it

0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.000
<v Speaker 4>because at this point, like my family is fighting constantly

0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.480
<v Speaker 4>about me. There is a I'm a huge source of

0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:23.199
<v Speaker 4>contention in the family, and my mom said, absolutely not,

0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.280
<v Speaker 4>We're not sending our daughter away, and so that created

0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.280
<v Speaker 4>even more controversy because now my dad can't get any

0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:31.480
<v Speaker 4>of us in order, so then it makes him look

0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.840
<v Speaker 4>like a bad leader in the church and they've just

0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.080
<v Speaker 4>joined in. So it's like the pressure that the church

0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.879
<v Speaker 4>puts on men to keep their women submissive. And the

0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.359
<v Speaker 4>head shupporter. I look at that and I'm like, that

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.840
<v Speaker 4>would make anybody break, you know. Yeah, And his job

0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:51.000
<v Speaker 4>is connected to his membership, right right. I get it

0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.320
<v Speaker 4>now as an adult, where my dad was supporting all

0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.359
<v Speaker 4>of us, and now I have two other siblings, so

0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.879
<v Speaker 4>there's three of us plus my mom. Everybody needs to

0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.440
<v Speaker 4>stay in order so dad can keep his job. And

0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:17.200
<v Speaker 4>yet I was constantly messing up. So they sent everybody

0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.040
<v Speaker 4>away that I was really close to, that I was

0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.520
<v Speaker 4>writing letters to. They sent my best friend away in

0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.280
<v Speaker 4>the middle of the night. They came and took her

0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.359
<v Speaker 4>at three in the morning, and I was never allowed

0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:28.200
<v Speaker 4>to talk to her again.

0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:30.399
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god until.

0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:31.320
<v Speaker 4>Probably like ten years.

0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:32.800
<v Speaker 1>I didn't see her for twenty one years.

0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:33.640
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.280
<v Speaker 6>And is it like a troubled teen type of thing?

0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:37.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.479
<v Speaker 5>How does it relate to the kind of the troubled

0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:40.160
<v Speaker 5>teen industry?

0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.640
<v Speaker 4>What's the it's really on brand. It just looks prettier,

0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.280
<v Speaker 4>you know. The facade, the marketing and the branding is there,

0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:51.760
<v Speaker 4>but it's it's very similar, so whether they put you

0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.879
<v Speaker 4>in a facility or they take you to somebody else's house,

0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:57.560
<v Speaker 4>or like in her and since she was taken to

0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.320
<v Speaker 4>the bishop's house and so she moved up a class

0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:03.639
<v Speaker 4>or five in a way because there is such a

0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.680
<v Speaker 4>cast system, so suddenly she's been yanked out of her

0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:11.720
<v Speaker 4>family and put into its like President Snow's place, you know,

0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:12.359
<v Speaker 4>it's like.

0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:13.560
<v Speaker 1>The royal family.

0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.240
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was in some ways really

0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:19.600
<v Speaker 4>good for her, but it was because of our friendship.

0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.400
<v Speaker 4>So I'm losing people one by one, and so this

0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:28.520
<v Speaker 4>isolation was really driving my mental health into plummeting. And

0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.600
<v Speaker 4>you can see it in photos. You can watch me

0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.600
<v Speaker 4>every year just lose more and more spark in my eye.

0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.119
<v Speaker 4>So by the time I'm this age, like sixteen, like

0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:39.439
<v Speaker 4>I was cutting and I was I was pulling my

0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:40.120
<v Speaker 4>hair out, and I.

0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.240
<v Speaker 1>Was so depressed.

0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:44.760
<v Speaker 4>And then when you're depressed, you're trying to control your

0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.119
<v Speaker 4>you know, for me, I was trying to control everything.

0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.920
<v Speaker 4>So I become super ocd because there's so much it's

0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.240
<v Speaker 4>performance driven, and I'm like, maybe if I can be

0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:54.880
<v Speaker 4>the perfect Mennonite girl.

0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:56.560
<v Speaker 1>Then they'll like me and I'll be accepted.

0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.480
<v Speaker 4>So at that point, my mom, I think, realized that

0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:01.960
<v Speaker 4>I was really not doing well, and so she made

0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.320
<v Speaker 4>a choice to go outside of the church standard and

0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.600
<v Speaker 4>seek counseling for me, which is not allowed any sort

0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:10.960
<v Speaker 4>of mental health support outside.

0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:11.280
<v Speaker 1>Of the community.

0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:13.520
<v Speaker 4>But she knew that I was just she was going

0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.480
<v Speaker 4>to lose me in one capacity or another. So we

0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.720
<v Speaker 4>went to a county over so nobody would see that

0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.080
<v Speaker 4>I was going to a therapist and we'd have to

0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:24.200
<v Speaker 4>like drop me off, you know, a couple parking lots

0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.199
<v Speaker 4>over and I'd walk in real quick. So I started

0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:31.280
<v Speaker 4>going to a counselor and he saved my life completely

0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.840
<v Speaker 4>because it was like the only person that saw me

0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.840
<v Speaker 4>as me and not a performance or what I needed

0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.199
<v Speaker 4>to be. And because he has nothing to do with

0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.040
<v Speaker 4>the church, nothing, and he was so great at like

0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:44.359
<v Speaker 4>how we phrased this, because you know, I'm so scared

0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:46.800
<v Speaker 4>to be in there, and it's a man on top

0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:48.880
<v Speaker 4>of it all, so here like these are two things

0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:52.359
<v Speaker 4>that are not allowed to be happening. And he at

0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:54.960
<v Speaker 4>the very end of our first intake session, I'll never

0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.200
<v Speaker 4>forget where he made me like I laughed or something

0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.000
<v Speaker 4>and he said, oh, he's like there it is like

0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:01.640
<v Speaker 4>I can get you to smile. You know, it's in there,

0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:04.800
<v Speaker 4>like you're we're going to be okay. And that tells you,

0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.800
<v Speaker 4>like if you know, my personality and very giggly all

0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:10.199
<v Speaker 4>the time, so like it was so bad that I

0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.080
<v Speaker 4>just could not even connect with any sort of joy.

0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:15.240
<v Speaker 4>So he recognized that, and then the next time when

0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:16.720
<v Speaker 4>it was just the two of us, he told me,

0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:19.600
<v Speaker 4>he said, I am not here to make you stay

0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:21.440
<v Speaker 4>in the church, and I'm not here to make you leave.

0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:24.359
<v Speaker 4>I'm here for you, and whatever that decision is, I

0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:28.680
<v Speaker 4>will walk with you whatever you decide from a therapist standpoint.

0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:31.320
<v Speaker 4>Good for him, because that's what exactly I needed to hear.

0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:33.600
<v Speaker 4>I needed to hear that I was not going to

0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:35.119
<v Speaker 4>be forced to leave the church because that was not

0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:36.160
<v Speaker 4>my goal at all.

0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:37.400
<v Speaker 1>He gave me that.

0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.960
<v Speaker 4>Relief straight out the gate, which then immediately made me.

0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:44.199
<v Speaker 1>Feel so trusting of him. And he was great. He

0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.760
<v Speaker 1>was just phenomenal and taught me so much about learning.

0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.239
<v Speaker 4>To love myself for me and things that were not

0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:53.639
<v Speaker 4>ever taught for me since I was living in this

0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:55.840
<v Speaker 4>performance based culture.

0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm curious, like how because it totally makes sense

0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:01.760
<v Speaker 2>that would make your guard come down, so then you

0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:04.120
<v Speaker 2>can actually just like be real with him. How did

0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:07.320
<v Speaker 2>he encourage you to think for yourself and how did

0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:09.600
<v Speaker 2>that kind of go against what you'd been taught about

0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:10.720
<v Speaker 2>what you were supposed to think.

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:15.000
<v Speaker 4>A lot of a lot of my obsession was on

0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:18.560
<v Speaker 4>body image at the time, because I was in a

0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:23.399
<v Speaker 4>culture that's also uses not only the female bodies. The

0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.520
<v Speaker 4>female body is responsible for everything, right, it's responsible for

0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:30.359
<v Speaker 4>men's sin. And it's also like if the smaller you

0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:34.600
<v Speaker 4>can make yourself, the quiet, the more you know elegant

0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:36.919
<v Speaker 4>that you can become, you have a better chance of

0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:39.600
<v Speaker 4>marrying somebody. And it was everything that I was not,

0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:43.240
<v Speaker 4>So I was obsessed with being as skinny as possible.

0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:46.199
<v Speaker 4>I've had a lot of eating disorders and I was

0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:48.919
<v Speaker 4>just trying to control that, And so a lot of

0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:53.200
<v Speaker 4>our focus was really on worthiness, that I was worthy

0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:57.000
<v Speaker 4>without looking a certain way or performance, and that was

0:23:57.200 --> 0:24:01.000
<v Speaker 4>so different than anybody else that was in my life.

0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:04.160
<v Speaker 4>I think that that's where he started. He started at

0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:06.760
<v Speaker 4>the point where I could identify with what it was.

0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:08.640
<v Speaker 1>But truly like that life.

0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:11.080
<v Speaker 4>Lesson doesn't it doesn't matter if it's like your body

0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:13.879
<v Speaker 4>image or anything. It always the same thing, which is

0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:19.359
<v Speaker 4>confidence and telling me that I was right, you know, whenever,

0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 4>and really just confirming and reaffirming what my intuition was

0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:29.040
<v Speaker 4>when nobody else was like that. So a lot of

0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:31.760
<v Speaker 4>our focus though, was just on the performance side of things.

0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:34.240
<v Speaker 4>But he did tell me I'll never forget because he

0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 4>had asked me what my social Security number was and

0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:38.040
<v Speaker 4>I didn't know it, and he said, oh, when you

0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:38.360
<v Speaker 4>go to.

0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:39.200
<v Speaker 1>College, you'll know it.

0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.119
<v Speaker 4>So it was like these little little things that were

0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:44.520
<v Speaker 4>like and I think about him every time I write

0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:47.480
<v Speaker 4>my social security number out. I'm like, he's right.

0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:52.040
<v Speaker 5>Number One, props to your mom for breaking rank on that, yeah,

0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:56.000
<v Speaker 5>and taking you know, that's really cool. Number Two, you

0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:59.240
<v Speaker 5>go to therapy, secret therapy, you come back, Do you

0:24:59.280 --> 0:24:59.600
<v Speaker 5>have to.

0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:04.239
<v Speaker 4>Pretend that you're not growing? Yes, I'll never forget. I

0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.280
<v Speaker 4>was really struggling, but I was starting to like feel

0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:10.800
<v Speaker 4>better because I was learning about positive thinking and so

0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:14.280
<v Speaker 4>it was helping me like reframe things, and so all

0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:17.080
<v Speaker 4>of a sudden, I like didn't feel so bad. I'll

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:20.720
<v Speaker 4>never forget. My school teacher. He was talking to me

0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:23.480
<v Speaker 4>and he said something he was wanting to know how

0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:26.719
<v Speaker 4>I was doing or whatever, and so I was like, oh,

0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:29.520
<v Speaker 4>I'm I started saying that I was better, and he goes, well,

0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:31.280
<v Speaker 4>you know, we don't believe in the.

0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:32.640
<v Speaker 1>Power of positive thinking.

0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:35.600
<v Speaker 4>Oh, but it was in a way that it was

0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:38.200
<v Speaker 4>like I didn't say anything, but I was like, I

0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:40.879
<v Speaker 4>think your phone should like because it's working. This is

0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:44.919
<v Speaker 4>the best I have felt ever. And so I just

0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:48.119
<v Speaker 4>had to pretend that he was right and just be like, okay,

0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:51.200
<v Speaker 4>you know, and but I'll never forget that. So yeah,

0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:52.200
<v Speaker 4>I totally.

0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Masked like yourself growth a lot of my growth. Yeah wow,

0:25:57.119 --> 0:26:03.840
<v Speaker 1>wow to respond like your old self. Yeah.

0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:08.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so that was a gradual progression and probably, well

0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:10.879
<v Speaker 4>not probably. That's totally why they don't allow you to

0:26:10.960 --> 0:26:14.280
<v Speaker 4>have outside support mental health, because once you begin to

0:26:14.359 --> 0:26:17.879
<v Speaker 4>have some sort of self worth and to be allowed

0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:20.920
<v Speaker 4>to question things and work through things and make your

0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:23.960
<v Speaker 4>own decision, you'll leave most likely.

0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:24.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:27.440
<v Speaker 5>And once you connect with somebody who's not in it

0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:31.840
<v Speaker 5>and they're not pressuring you and you're just human to human, Yeah,

0:26:31.880 --> 0:26:36.280
<v Speaker 5>that's also very powerful, very powerful, huge.

0:26:36.880 --> 0:26:40.600
<v Speaker 4>So for me, there was no aha moment. It was

0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:44.960
<v Speaker 4>just this gradual self awareness and self confidence where I

0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:48.960
<v Speaker 4>finally was like, I can't keep doing this. And I

0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:51.800
<v Speaker 4>also recognized that there was no way that they were

0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:54.639
<v Speaker 4>going to let me marry who I wanted to marry,

0:26:54.960 --> 0:26:58.160
<v Speaker 4>and I had no true future because for them, if

0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:00.679
<v Speaker 4>you were over the age of twenty one and not

0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:04.080
<v Speaker 4>in a relationship or married, you're an old maids. And

0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:07.760
<v Speaker 4>how do you support yourself moving forward is that you

0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:10.760
<v Speaker 4>would typically become a school teacher. But if they're not

0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:13.720
<v Speaker 4>going to let you marry somebody that is a good

0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:17.520
<v Speaker 4>Mennonite man, because you are a risk, they're definitely not

0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:20.320
<v Speaker 4>going to let you teach their children. So I really

0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:23.800
<v Speaker 4>actually looked at going to a less conservative Mennonite church.

0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:27.400
<v Speaker 4>I was looking for a step down program, and there

0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:30.120
<v Speaker 4>wasn't one where we lived unless I moved to Pennsylvania.

0:27:30.560 --> 0:27:32.520
<v Speaker 4>And that was a huge risk too, because at this

0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:35.439
<v Speaker 4>point I'm coming with this like tainted reputation, being this

0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:37.359
<v Speaker 4>like you know, horror.

0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:39.639
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, they've already wrote letters about you.

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:41.960
<v Speaker 4>They have they do, like you know, And it was

0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:44.880
<v Speaker 4>very well known that I was a problem. And because

0:27:44.920 --> 0:27:48.000
<v Speaker 4>I wasn't allowed to interact with my peers like it

0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:50.400
<v Speaker 4>was if we went to a visiting church, like everybody

0:27:50.440 --> 0:27:51.919
<v Speaker 4>was told they couldn't interact with me.

0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:52.639
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:55.440
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. So the friends that I still I still have them,

0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:57.720
<v Speaker 4>like that went outside the box, like took a big

0:27:57.840 --> 0:28:01.240
<v Speaker 4>risk socially and to be in trouble by.

0:28:01.200 --> 0:28:02.159
<v Speaker 1>Associating with me.

0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:06.000
<v Speaker 4>So for me, it was just this realization that it

0:28:06.119 --> 0:28:08.199
<v Speaker 4>was like once you see something, you can't unsee it.

0:28:08.600 --> 0:28:12.280
<v Speaker 4>And there was just I had developed such growth. I

0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:14.080
<v Speaker 4>mean I've still like had a long waist to go,

0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:17.080
<v Speaker 4>but I had enough to be like, I can't keep

0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:20.560
<v Speaker 4>myself small like this. It's just unattainable without me wanting

0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:22.280
<v Speaker 4>to die. And I don't want to feel like I

0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:25.200
<v Speaker 4>want to die every day. Yeah, So that was it.

0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:28.280
<v Speaker 4>There wasn't like I didn't have this one thing that

0:28:28.640 --> 0:28:31.360
<v Speaker 4>made me leave that I can remember anyway. I mean

0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:34.399
<v Speaker 4>that's the thing, like repressed memories are still there around

0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:37.320
<v Speaker 4>this time period because I think it was just so difficult.

0:28:37.320 --> 0:28:40.560
<v Speaker 4>But it's helpful to have my parents and you know,

0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:43.280
<v Speaker 4>my mom especially remind me of things that were happening

0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:45.360
<v Speaker 4>at that time, just to kind of put the puzzle

0:28:45.360 --> 0:28:46.520
<v Speaker 4>pieces of trauma together.

0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:50.120
<v Speaker 6>And so when you turn eighteen, what happens?

0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:50.800
<v Speaker 1>Where do you go?

0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:54.120
<v Speaker 4>I was able to stay at my parents' house. I left.

0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:58.920
<v Speaker 4>I wrote a letter to withdrama membership with my therapist,

0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:03.040
<v Speaker 4>because they do a lot of intimidation practices when you

0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:05.880
<v Speaker 4>leave the church, they will come to your house, they

0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:08.320
<v Speaker 4>will write letters, they will make phone calls.

0:29:08.480 --> 0:29:11.920
<v Speaker 1>It's like this major harassment, very scientology.

0:29:12.480 --> 0:29:15.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and I didn't want that. And so in the

0:29:15.240 --> 0:29:17.640
<v Speaker 4>letter I wrote that I had my parents blessing and

0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:20.760
<v Speaker 4>support to withraw my membership, and that I did not

0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:23.360
<v Speaker 4>want anybody to come to my house to try to

0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:26.320
<v Speaker 4>talk to me. And so Roger taught me this and

0:29:26.360 --> 0:29:29.200
<v Speaker 4>we signed it this way that it was your anticipated

0:29:29.240 --> 0:29:34.080
<v Speaker 4>cooperation is deeply appreciated. Roger.

0:29:34.360 --> 0:29:37.600
<v Speaker 1>My therapist killed it with that, we love you, Roger.

0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:39.280
<v Speaker 1>That's so good.

0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:43.800
<v Speaker 4>And you know I ran into him two years ago.

0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:46.480
<v Speaker 4>He walked in into my parents' restaurant and I got,

0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:49.760
<v Speaker 4>this is my therapist and I got to thank him,

0:29:50.040 --> 0:29:53.160
<v Speaker 4>oh foring all of the work that he did with

0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:55.560
<v Speaker 4>me as a teenager. And because of him, I've been

0:29:55.600 --> 0:29:58.640
<v Speaker 4>able to impact so many hundreds of lives because of

0:29:58.720 --> 0:30:02.160
<v Speaker 4>his own work and invested in me, And it was amazing.

0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:04.920
<v Speaker 4>It was his birthday. We've cried. His wife cried, and

0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:08.520
<v Speaker 4>I know it was great. You know, to go back

0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:10.360
<v Speaker 4>and thank the people that have been there for you

0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:12.960
<v Speaker 4>is a unique experience and I was able to do that.

0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:14.000
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:30:14.280 --> 0:30:15.800
<v Speaker 4>So he taught me that phrase and I use it

0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:16.280
<v Speaker 4>all the time.

0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:18.160
<v Speaker 1>Your anticipated cooperation.

0:30:19.680 --> 0:30:24.160
<v Speaker 5>The stocking and harassment is quite on christ Like, how

0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:25.280
<v Speaker 5>do they reckon with that?

0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:29.200
<v Speaker 4>Well, they would say that it's as Jesus would go

0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:32.560
<v Speaker 4>out to find the lost sheep. It's essentially the same thing,

0:30:32.880 --> 0:30:34.959
<v Speaker 4>like and bring it back to the fold. That's what

0:30:34.960 --> 0:30:37.680
<v Speaker 4>they believe in, right, And that's where like a lot

0:30:37.680 --> 0:30:40.480
<v Speaker 4>of people ask, what's the difference between Aumish and Mennonites.

0:30:40.640 --> 0:30:43.880
<v Speaker 4>And the Menonites are a lot more mission driven. You'll

0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:48.120
<v Speaker 4>see a lot more missionaries. And also they will proactively

0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:50.640
<v Speaker 4>go to try to get somebody back into the fold.

0:30:51.120 --> 0:30:54.480
<v Speaker 4>The Amish are not, and they do what's called the band,

0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:57.480
<v Speaker 4>so they will freeze somebody out and that's their way

0:30:57.480 --> 0:30:59.560
<v Speaker 4>of feeling like they can bring somebody back into the

0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:04.960
<v Speaker 4>fold is by psychological torture. Pick whatich you're one?

0:31:05.120 --> 0:31:08.680
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, God, both bad but anyways, both very bad.

0:31:08.920 --> 0:31:12.560
<v Speaker 4>But the harassment's awful. And I see this a lot

0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:15.560
<v Speaker 4>like actively working in the communities. And this is something

0:31:15.560 --> 0:31:19.480
<v Speaker 4>that I've really tried to get the survivors to understand,

0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:21.600
<v Speaker 4>even when they're still in the church, but maybe they've

0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:24.480
<v Speaker 4>stood up and or they've reported their abuse, or they're

0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:28.000
<v Speaker 4>seeking help. Is I tell them these are criminal actions

0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:31.400
<v Speaker 4>that these men in the church and sometimes women are doing.

0:31:31.720 --> 0:31:33.959
<v Speaker 4>And you can actually call the police and have charges

0:31:33.960 --> 0:31:36.800
<v Speaker 4>pressed on them because this is stoking harassment. You can

0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:39.240
<v Speaker 4>get a CPO and just to watch them, just like

0:31:39.360 --> 0:31:42.400
<v Speaker 4>light bulb moments. Because nobody told me that either, but

0:31:43.040 --> 0:31:46.080
<v Speaker 4>it's very common practice in the in the communities.

0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:48.480
<v Speaker 5>What does it look like like they're outside your house?

0:31:48.560 --> 0:31:50.240
<v Speaker 5>They're like, what do they do?

0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:52.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so they'll drive by.

0:31:52.840 --> 0:31:54.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean they do this when you're in the church too.

0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:58.160
<v Speaker 4>They'll drive by our bishops stopped in at They'll come

0:31:58.240 --> 0:32:01.760
<v Speaker 4>late at night, stopped in it like nine thirty, I believe.

0:32:01.880 --> 0:32:04.080
<v Speaker 4>And I think it's done on purpose because you're in

0:32:04.200 --> 0:32:07.160
<v Speaker 4>your pajamas. You're not, you know, fully dressed for the day,

0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:09.640
<v Speaker 4>and you're caught off guard. And he sat at our

0:32:09.720 --> 0:32:13.080
<v Speaker 4>kitchen table and he was furious and told my mom

0:32:13.160 --> 0:32:16.160
<v Speaker 4>that he would make an example out of my family,

0:32:16.200 --> 0:32:19.280
<v Speaker 4>that it was not easy to leave the church. Wow,

0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:22.640
<v Speaker 4>So the threats are there. I have letters. They really

0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:26.480
<v Speaker 4>big on writing these like emotional guilt trip letters that

0:32:27.160 --> 0:32:30.640
<v Speaker 4>you know there's choices and consequences and you need to

0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:34.160
<v Speaker 4>think clearly and you know you're clearly not in your

0:32:34.240 --> 0:32:37.280
<v Speaker 4>right mind and that everybody is praying for you, and

0:32:37.840 --> 0:32:40.280
<v Speaker 4>it's it's the same thing. But when you get like

0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:42.920
<v Speaker 4>these letters in they're from your family and these phone

0:32:42.920 --> 0:32:45.320
<v Speaker 4>calls and people are driving by and stopping in, and

0:32:45.880 --> 0:32:48.760
<v Speaker 4>it's hard. Yeah, it's hard when you've broken free.

0:32:48.920 --> 0:32:49.120
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

0:32:49.160 --> 0:32:52.040
<v Speaker 2>I was like gonna ask, were you tempted to return

0:32:52.280 --> 0:32:54.560
<v Speaker 2>or were you more just like, God, these fucking people

0:32:54.760 --> 0:32:55.600
<v Speaker 2>won't leave me alone.

0:32:56.200 --> 0:32:59.520
<v Speaker 4>That's great question. Because I actually tried to go back.

0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:04.040
<v Speaker 4>Probably I can't remember how long it was, but I

0:33:04.080 --> 0:33:06.480
<v Speaker 4>know it was in like the first year that I left.

0:33:06.760 --> 0:33:08.760
<v Speaker 1>I think it was like a couple months later.

0:33:08.840 --> 0:33:11.320
<v Speaker 4>I decided, well, maybe I can go back, maybe because

0:33:11.360 --> 0:33:13.480
<v Speaker 4>I couldn't do out here. This is like too much

0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:15.880
<v Speaker 4>and I couldn't find anywhere else, and so I was like,

0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:19.080
<v Speaker 4>maybe I'll just like go back. And I tried and

0:33:19.400 --> 0:33:21.720
<v Speaker 4>I couldn't do that either. And that's the worst feeling.

0:33:21.760 --> 0:33:23.240
<v Speaker 4>You don't know where to go because you don't fit

0:33:23.280 --> 0:33:26.360
<v Speaker 4>in anywhere, and you don't belong and you don't nobody

0:33:26.400 --> 0:33:29.400
<v Speaker 4>wants to and so but I was able to stay

0:33:29.400 --> 0:33:31.480
<v Speaker 4>at my parents' house. My mom had left the church

0:33:31.560 --> 0:33:34.240
<v Speaker 4>three months before and my dad was still a member,

0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:37.360
<v Speaker 4>so I still had a home, so I wasn't kicked out,

0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:39.480
<v Speaker 4>but there was. It was a lot of.

0:33:39.440 --> 0:33:43.719
<v Speaker 1>Turmoil in the family. It was not easy by any means. No,

0:33:43.960 --> 0:33:45.360
<v Speaker 1>that sounds horrible.

0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:46.640
<v Speaker 4>I just focused on education.

0:33:46.960 --> 0:33:47.280
<v Speaker 2>I was.

0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:49.640
<v Speaker 4>I just found what I needed to, like the next step,

0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:53.640
<v Speaker 4>and just really tried to be goal oriented. How met

0:33:53.640 --> 0:33:54.160
<v Speaker 4>a night of me?

0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:56.440
<v Speaker 1>And did you go to college?

0:33:56.800 --> 0:33:59.120
<v Speaker 4>I did. I ended up having to go back to

0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:01.640
<v Speaker 4>me forever to graduate. But I have my Bachelors of

0:34:01.640 --> 0:34:06.680
<v Speaker 4>Science and Equine Science, which was yes, I still work

0:34:06.720 --> 0:34:11.319
<v Speaker 4>in horses amazing and having a science degree is hilarious.

0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:15.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, so hard, that's perfect.

0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:19.320
<v Speaker 4>Oh hard. Yeah. And in a five year span, I

0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:23.960
<v Speaker 4>left a cult, I lost a very close grandparent. I

0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:28.520
<v Speaker 4>went to college, I dropped out of college, got married,

0:34:29.000 --> 0:34:32.279
<v Speaker 4>got pregnant, had a child, got divorced, and then went

0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:33.080
<v Speaker 4>back to school.

0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:33.720
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:37.000
<v Speaker 4>Not any support or therapy. So it was like this

0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:41.359
<v Speaker 4>like flusterfuck of just shit. But I did it all

0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:43.960
<v Speaker 4>like in my late teens and early twenties, I got

0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:45.799
<v Speaker 4>all that like just out of the way, and now

0:34:45.840 --> 0:34:47.520
<v Speaker 4>I feel like the rest of my life is just

0:34:47.560 --> 0:34:51.080
<v Speaker 4>trying to untangle that and learn how to live in

0:34:51.120 --> 0:34:52.200
<v Speaker 4>a state of peace.

0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:57.680
<v Speaker 6>And you are untangling that on your podcast, which would

0:34:57.680 --> 0:34:59.560
<v Speaker 6>love for you to tell people what that is.

0:35:00.160 --> 0:35:04.759
<v Speaker 4>Yes, So in twenty eighteen, I decided that I feel

0:35:04.760 --> 0:35:09.080
<v Speaker 4>like a podcast is the millennial white woman's version of

0:35:09.120 --> 0:35:10.600
<v Speaker 4>a butterfly tattoo.

0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:11.640
<v Speaker 1>Like all of us have one.

0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:17.040
<v Speaker 4>I was like, I should trampstamp my own so hard

0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:21.200
<v Speaker 4>a podcast in twenty eighteen called The Plane People's Podcast

0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:24.880
<v Speaker 4>and if it's really just a creative endeavor to show

0:35:24.960 --> 0:35:27.760
<v Speaker 4>what it was like to leave high control, high demand religion,

0:35:28.440 --> 0:35:31.440
<v Speaker 4>and I was really focused on showing the need for

0:35:32.000 --> 0:35:35.520
<v Speaker 4>a continuing education and slash education for women that were

0:35:35.560 --> 0:35:38.560
<v Speaker 4>coming out of the communities because it's so hard to

0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:42.160
<v Speaker 4>leave and there's no support or resources. And I've always

0:35:42.239 --> 0:35:45.200
<v Speaker 4>been very, very firm the education is a gateway. It

0:35:45.280 --> 0:35:47.600
<v Speaker 4>is a privilege. It is amazing. It is something that

0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:52.160
<v Speaker 4>Americans don't realize is a lifeline for people that are

0:35:52.239 --> 0:35:56.799
<v Speaker 4>leaving Poults because it gives you access to who you

0:35:56.840 --> 0:35:59.279
<v Speaker 4>want to become, it gives you resources, it can give

0:35:59.320 --> 0:36:02.239
<v Speaker 4>you housing if you stay on campus. It's like it

0:36:02.320 --> 0:36:06.719
<v Speaker 4>is such a great landing spot. And so I really

0:36:06.719 --> 0:36:09.640
<v Speaker 4>wanted to showcase why I felt like there needed to

0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:13.560
<v Speaker 4>be more attention on grant writing and scholarships for women

0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:15.839
<v Speaker 4>that would leave. They felt like they would leave more,

0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:19.080
<v Speaker 4>and so I started the podcast kind of thinking that

0:36:19.080 --> 0:36:20.680
<v Speaker 4>that was what it was going to be, is just

0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:24.560
<v Speaker 4>show what it was like and why, and it segued

0:36:24.560 --> 0:36:27.799
<v Speaker 4>into just a whole different direction than I ever thought

0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:32.240
<v Speaker 4>that it would and grew. So my intention was always

0:36:32.280 --> 0:36:35.360
<v Speaker 4>to just have roundtable discussions like this with people that

0:36:35.440 --> 0:36:39.040
<v Speaker 4>had left the churches, whether they had good experiences or bad.

0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:41.960
<v Speaker 4>I wanted to showcase just the spectrum and hear how

0:36:42.000 --> 0:36:44.600
<v Speaker 4>their life was and all was curious, like how did

0:36:44.600 --> 0:36:48.240
<v Speaker 4>they survive leaving the church? And so I just started

0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:52.759
<v Speaker 4>with beginner energy, and there was not another podcast out

0:36:52.800 --> 0:36:56.160
<v Speaker 4>there that was talking about amishr Mennonites at the time,

0:36:56.520 --> 0:36:59.759
<v Speaker 4>so it took off like way more than I ever

0:36:59.760 --> 0:37:05.080
<v Speaker 4>thought it would and quickly segued into immersing me in

0:37:05.480 --> 0:37:09.560
<v Speaker 4>high levels of abuse that I had no idea was

0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:12.680
<v Speaker 4>so prolific. So that was a really big learning curve

0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:14.200
<v Speaker 4>for me, first.

0:37:13.960 --> 0:37:16.440
<v Speaker 2>In terms of what was going on in the communities

0:37:16.480 --> 0:37:18.200
<v Speaker 2>that you didn't know about that you were learning from

0:37:18.200 --> 0:37:18.760
<v Speaker 2>these stories.

0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:21.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, the thing was, it's like, as you can tell,

0:37:21.719 --> 0:37:24.359
<v Speaker 4>the church was so focused on me and everything that

0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:28.520
<v Speaker 4>I was doing wrong that while I heard murmurings of

0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:31.439
<v Speaker 4>abuse that was happening, it was always very much made

0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:33.799
<v Speaker 4>to feel like I was the problem. And what I

0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:37.080
<v Speaker 4>found by sharing stories is that all my guests were

0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:40.680
<v Speaker 4>made to feel that way too, and then recognizing there

0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:43.560
<v Speaker 4>was a much bigger issue that was happening, which at

0:37:43.600 --> 0:37:46.720
<v Speaker 4>the time most people were just talking about sexual abuse

0:37:46.840 --> 0:37:52.279
<v Speaker 4>child sexual abuse. So I was thrust into all of

0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:55.319
<v Speaker 4>a sudden people sharing all of these stories, not on

0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:58.160
<v Speaker 4>the podcast, but writing in saying that they could identify

0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:01.120
<v Speaker 4>with something or that they had had this happened to them,

0:38:01.200 --> 0:38:03.719
<v Speaker 4>and did I know anybody else that had? So it

0:38:03.760 --> 0:38:07.000
<v Speaker 4>became very overwhelming, very fast, and I just felt like

0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:08.920
<v Speaker 4>I was just trying to get my feet underneath me.

0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:12.319
<v Speaker 4>With the podcast, it started to feel overwhelming, like I'm

0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:14.799
<v Speaker 4>not a therapist. I don't have the tools to be

0:38:14.880 --> 0:38:18.560
<v Speaker 4>able to walk somebody through this, And these are people's

0:38:18.600 --> 0:38:21.839
<v Speaker 4>lives in people's stories, and they're very vulnerable. And while

0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:24.120
<v Speaker 4>I felt so grateful that they trusted me with that,

0:38:24.520 --> 0:38:26.560
<v Speaker 4>I wanted to help them in the way that I could.

0:38:27.160 --> 0:38:30.440
<v Speaker 4>So it's been been a journey of creating pathways and

0:38:30.480 --> 0:38:33.399
<v Speaker 4>resources for people and to be able to connect them

0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:38.360
<v Speaker 4>in and digging out the tunnels of resources. So podcasts

0:38:38.360 --> 0:38:41.320
<v Speaker 4>started with intentions of just sharing stories. Then it became

0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:44.320
<v Speaker 4>so much bigger in a way amazing.

0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:47.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what were some of the things that you

0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:47.720
<v Speaker 1>were learning?

0:38:48.120 --> 0:38:52.040
<v Speaker 4>I was putting pieces together that there was trafficking going on.

0:38:52.520 --> 0:38:55.279
<v Speaker 4>That was a big aha moment for me because like

0:38:55.440 --> 0:38:58.960
<v Speaker 4>hearing what somebody was sharing, whether that's sex trafficking or

0:38:59.040 --> 0:39:02.440
<v Speaker 4>labor trafficking, and seeing it from a different angle. Because

0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:06.600
<v Speaker 4>when I'm talking to other Mennonites or Anabaptists wing people,

0:39:07.520 --> 0:39:10.480
<v Speaker 4>I can use the terminology that we use, Like they

0:39:10.520 --> 0:39:13.560
<v Speaker 4>won't ever say, oh, somebody raped their trial. They'll say

0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:17.200
<v Speaker 4>they fell into sin ah. So there's all these common phrases.

0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:19.919
<v Speaker 4>And so when I'm interviewing people and they say that

0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:24.120
<v Speaker 4>it's like code switching, something will kick into me and

0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:27.120
<v Speaker 4>I'll be like, wait a minute, that's actually called this,

0:39:27.760 --> 0:39:32.279
<v Speaker 4>and being able to incorporate proper terminology into people's stories

0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:36.200
<v Speaker 4>shifted the narrative of how people saw things. So when

0:39:36.239 --> 0:39:40.719
<v Speaker 4>people were talking about the facilities and their experiences, I

0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:44.160
<v Speaker 4>started recognizing, I'm like, I think this is labor trafficking.

0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:46.719
<v Speaker 4>So then going and having to educate myself on that

0:39:46.760 --> 0:39:49.160
<v Speaker 4>and being like, yes, this is labor trafficking, and then

0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:53.200
<v Speaker 4>being willing enough to say it before it was common

0:39:53.239 --> 0:39:55.960
<v Speaker 4>to say, and being ostracized for coming in with such

0:39:55.960 --> 0:40:00.000
<v Speaker 4>an enforceful word, right or phrase. It makes people uncomfortable

0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:02.920
<v Speaker 4>when you use terminology like that. It makes people uncomfortable

0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:04.560
<v Speaker 4>when you say that's child labor.

0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:07.000
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, when you call out the truth, they don't like

0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:10.160
<v Speaker 5>to hear it. And these are communities that are holding

0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:13.600
<v Speaker 5>quarters up to women's dresses to make sure the flower

0:40:14.200 --> 0:40:19.920
<v Speaker 5>is smaller, minimizing these huge actual problems and language, and

0:40:19.960 --> 0:40:22.680
<v Speaker 5>we're calling it this. And it's just like the more

0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:26.920
<v Speaker 5>focused a community is on controlling the smallest things about women, the.

0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:29.279
<v Speaker 2>Less they seem to care about sexual abuse and the

0:40:29.320 --> 0:40:32.200
<v Speaker 2>commuse yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah it is.

0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:35.400
<v Speaker 4>And so it was also really hard for me because

0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:39.000
<v Speaker 4>I'm still like reprogramming my Menonite brain in order to

0:40:39.000 --> 0:40:41.920
<v Speaker 4>be brave enough to say these things. And then I

0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:44.920
<v Speaker 4>realized there was I think sex trafficking happening, which was

0:40:44.960 --> 0:40:48.600
<v Speaker 4>called wife swapping, and being comfortable enough to even exploring

0:40:48.640 --> 0:40:50.719
<v Speaker 4>that that was happening when people were like, there's no

0:40:50.840 --> 0:40:53.240
<v Speaker 4>way that this is happening within the community. You're coming

0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:56.120
<v Speaker 4>for them and you're just angry and bitter because you

0:40:56.120 --> 0:40:59.120
<v Speaker 4>couldn't make it in the church, and I'm like, that's

0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:02.319
<v Speaker 4>not it at all. So it's been a journey of

0:41:02.360 --> 0:41:07.280
<v Speaker 4>like uncovering what is truly organized crime and being willing

0:41:07.360 --> 0:41:10.520
<v Speaker 4>to see things that there's different layers. You know, a

0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:13.440
<v Speaker 4>lot of members they don't recognize or see that that's happening,

0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:17.440
<v Speaker 4>and their experience isn't organized crime, but that doesn't negate

0:41:17.480 --> 0:41:20.160
<v Speaker 4>the fact that it is organized crime on a different level,

0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:25.399
<v Speaker 4>and that there are very coercive, manipulative men that are

0:41:25.440 --> 0:41:29.240
<v Speaker 4>doing things for money, but they're hiding behind the brand

0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:33.200
<v Speaker 4>the Amish and Mennonite churches and the image that people

0:41:33.200 --> 0:41:37.520
<v Speaker 4>in the outside world have also revered and romanticized so

0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:40.480
<v Speaker 4>much so my battle is always not only just like

0:41:41.000 --> 0:41:44.920
<v Speaker 4>talking frankly and exposing what is happening within to the

0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:48.240
<v Speaker 4>people that are within. But also it's reframing and shifting

0:41:48.400 --> 0:41:51.600
<v Speaker 4>the romantic lens that so many people hold on the

0:41:51.600 --> 0:41:55.440
<v Speaker 4>amishon Mennonites totally. I always say this, I'm like kool

0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:58.880
<v Speaker 4>Aid didn't do a collab with Jim Jones, And you

0:41:58.920 --> 0:42:01.640
<v Speaker 4>know there's all these other cults. You're not buying Jehovah

0:42:01.640 --> 0:42:05.719
<v Speaker 4>Witness furniture, right, but people still like I feel like

0:42:05.840 --> 0:42:09.399
<v Speaker 4>when you look at cults, they honest, your Mennonites are

0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:12.680
<v Speaker 4>like the most romanticized one at all. So when you

0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:16.160
<v Speaker 4>start speaking out on that, they people in the outside

0:42:16.160 --> 0:42:19.600
<v Speaker 4>world they don't like that. They get really really upset

0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:22.040
<v Speaker 4>with you when you start calling it a cult or

0:42:22.200 --> 0:42:25.400
<v Speaker 4>just naming the different crimes because they want to hold

0:42:25.400 --> 0:42:28.239
<v Speaker 4>on to this romanticized version of the quilts and the

0:42:28.280 --> 0:42:29.560
<v Speaker 4>reason that my family joined in.

0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:32.320
<v Speaker 5>I was gonna say that they want their quilts period.

0:42:32.360 --> 0:42:35.160
<v Speaker 5>I got the quilts and some fresh butter.

0:42:35.640 --> 0:42:38.719
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah, Like they'll they'll accept the fact that there's

0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:42.480
<v Speaker 4>puppy mells and that there's abuse happening within animals, but

0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:46.120
<v Speaker 4>they still can't not always. But what I've seen it shift,

0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:49.279
<v Speaker 4>but it's hard for people to still accept that, like

0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:53.399
<v Speaker 4>organized crime is happening against children and women and men

0:42:53.680 --> 0:42:57.239
<v Speaker 4>within the communities as well. So that's always been a

0:42:57.280 --> 0:43:01.680
<v Speaker 4>little difficult where you know, people will almost like animals right,

0:43:01.920 --> 0:43:05.040
<v Speaker 4>animal rights for children's rights. It's odd.

0:43:05.560 --> 0:43:10.360
<v Speaker 2>I remember we interviewed the cult assassin Carol Murchison, I

0:43:10.360 --> 0:43:12.319
<v Speaker 2>believe is how you say her last name who She's

0:43:12.320 --> 0:43:15.640
<v Speaker 2>a lawyer who specifically like goes after abusive high control groups,

0:43:15.880 --> 0:43:21.000
<v Speaker 2>and her journey began with someone saying that there was

0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:25.480
<v Speaker 2>a Buddhist group that had become abusive, and she was like, Buddhists,

0:43:25.480 --> 0:43:28.560
<v Speaker 2>no way, Buddhist wouldn't do that. That goes against the

0:43:28.640 --> 0:43:31.120
<v Speaker 2>idea of Buddhism, and I feel like it's a similar thing.

0:43:31.560 --> 0:43:33.640
<v Speaker 2>And of course she then learned that the abuse really

0:43:33.680 --> 0:43:35.840
<v Speaker 2>was happening, and that sort of opened her whole world.

0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:39.680
<v Speaker 2>It's like, wherever there's a sanitized image of like purity

0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:43.799
<v Speaker 2>and wholesomeness, like, no matter what I promise you, there's

0:43:43.800 --> 0:43:46.560
<v Speaker 2>a version of it somewhere where somebody's getting abused because

0:43:46.640 --> 0:43:48.319
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately human beed doing that.

0:43:48.520 --> 0:43:53.200
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's an inconvenient truth for quilts and the other

0:43:53.320 --> 0:43:57.440
<v Speaker 5>things that people need to believe that is happening.

0:43:57.719 --> 0:44:00.319
<v Speaker 1>Somewhere in the world. There's like pure living and it's

0:44:00.480 --> 0:44:00.719
<v Speaker 1>just like.

0:44:00.920 --> 0:44:04.040
<v Speaker 2>No which I'm sure there are communities where it's not

0:44:04.080 --> 0:44:04.840
<v Speaker 2>happening and few.

0:44:04.760 --> 0:44:06.840
<v Speaker 1>Families are having a great good time.

0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:10.040
<v Speaker 4>It is, and that's the thing. Like So in twenty

0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:12.479
<v Speaker 4>twenty one, I had a I don't know, maybe twenty

0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:15.399
<v Speaker 4>twenty two, I had a group of current Amish women

0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:17.640
<v Speaker 4>reach out to me from Ohio asking for my help.

0:44:17.680 --> 0:44:20.719
<v Speaker 4>They'd found my podcast, They'd listened to everything they could

0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:23.480
<v Speaker 4>relate to it, and they were trying to get eyes

0:44:23.640 --> 0:44:27.600
<v Speaker 4>on what they were experiencing. And you know, I'd formed

0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:30.440
<v Speaker 4>some relationship with some of them, and I told them,

0:44:30.480 --> 0:44:32.560
<v Speaker 4>I said, I can do what I can do for you,

0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:34.840
<v Speaker 4>which is I have a podcast, I have a platform.

0:44:35.200 --> 0:44:38.320
<v Speaker 4>I would be happy to put out whatever you want

0:44:38.520 --> 0:44:40.720
<v Speaker 4>the world to know because I can be that channel

0:44:40.760 --> 0:44:42.840
<v Speaker 4>for you if you're comfortable enough. And they were so

0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:45.080
<v Speaker 4>on board with it, because they felt like they'd been

0:44:45.120 --> 0:44:48.640
<v Speaker 4>silenced everywhere else. So I started going up there and

0:44:48.680 --> 0:44:52.600
<v Speaker 4>recording them and one of the things that's really helped,

0:44:52.640 --> 0:44:55.360
<v Speaker 4>I think is being able to bring them into the

0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:59.279
<v Speaker 4>rooms that I'm teaching in any sort of workshop, any

0:44:59.280 --> 0:45:03.400
<v Speaker 4>sort of converse, and also on the podcast, because it

0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:05.799
<v Speaker 4>shows that the problem is still existing and it's not

0:45:05.880 --> 0:45:08.440
<v Speaker 4>people that have left the church that are out to

0:45:08.520 --> 0:45:10.440
<v Speaker 4>get the church that are sharing these stories. Now we

0:45:10.480 --> 0:45:13.600
<v Speaker 4>have people that are on the inside confirming that reaffirming,

0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:19.080
<v Speaker 4>and it's very hard for people to silence those people

0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:22.120
<v Speaker 4>versus those of us that have left, right, And so

0:45:22.160 --> 0:45:24.080
<v Speaker 4>I feel like that's helped a little bit as far

0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:27.160
<v Speaker 4>as shift that perception. And I've seen it, like in

0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:30.120
<v Speaker 4>the last two years, like if a news article comes out,

0:45:30.320 --> 0:45:35.759
<v Speaker 4>there's far less people trying to protect the brand, and

0:45:35.800 --> 0:45:37.640
<v Speaker 4>there's a lot more people that are aware of what's

0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:40.360
<v Speaker 4>actually really happening. And that's very much changed over the

0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:41.680
<v Speaker 4>course of a few years.

0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:45.239
<v Speaker 2>That's amazing, And well it sounds like you're instrumental and

0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:46.840
<v Speaker 2>contributing to that change.

0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:49.200
<v Speaker 1>So hell yeah, it's been.

0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:52.160
<v Speaker 4>A journey, but it's been really rewarding. You know. I

0:45:52.200 --> 0:45:55.600
<v Speaker 4>started doing these underground women's meetings a year and a

0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:58.600
<v Speaker 4>half ago because I recognize these women they need to

0:45:58.640 --> 0:46:01.640
<v Speaker 4>be supported, but they need answers. They need education from

0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:05.160
<v Speaker 4>the people that can educate them, federal officers, people that

0:46:05.239 --> 0:46:08.880
<v Speaker 4>they can trust within a state agencies and then local

0:46:08.960 --> 0:46:12.960
<v Speaker 4>victim advocates, lawyers like everybody that can actually really help

0:46:13.000 --> 0:46:15.759
<v Speaker 4>them answer their questions so that they have the autonomy

0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:18.160
<v Speaker 4>so that they can stay safely in the church and

0:46:18.200 --> 0:46:20.399
<v Speaker 4>if it doesn't feel safe, they have options and they

0:46:20.440 --> 0:46:23.120
<v Speaker 4>know what to do. So it gives them the power

0:46:23.280 --> 0:46:25.160
<v Speaker 4>versus them feeling like they're in the church and they

0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:27.040
<v Speaker 4>have nobody that's out there listening to them.

0:46:27.280 --> 0:46:29.520
<v Speaker 1>It's really helped, I believe amazing.

0:46:30.080 --> 0:46:31.600
<v Speaker 6>Well, where can people find.

0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:34.200
<v Speaker 4>Your podcast so they can find it on all the

0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:37.160
<v Speaker 4>platforms I think except for SoundCloud, I can't.

0:46:37.200 --> 0:46:38.200
<v Speaker 1>I can't figure that one out.

0:46:38.239 --> 0:46:43.800
<v Speaker 4>But so look at the Plane People's Podcast, and I

0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:47.040
<v Speaker 4>also have a website playing People's podcast dot Com. I

0:46:47.080 --> 0:46:50.480
<v Speaker 4>started a substack that's called the Plane People's Project where

0:46:50.520 --> 0:46:54.160
<v Speaker 4>I share more documents as crimes are coming out to

0:46:54.239 --> 0:46:56.680
<v Speaker 4>kind of like show behind the scenes of the stories

0:46:56.719 --> 0:46:59.879
<v Speaker 4>that are coming out. And on Instagram too. The Plane

0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:04.480
<v Speaker 4>People's Podcast awesome. Thank you so much for coming on

0:47:04.560 --> 0:47:08.080
<v Speaker 4>and telling us all of this important stuff. Sharing your story.

0:47:08.280 --> 0:47:10.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

0:47:11.800 --> 0:47:13.640
<v Speaker 6>And that's all we have with Jasper.

0:47:13.840 --> 0:47:17.080
<v Speaker 2>Big things to Jasper for joining us Megan, do you

0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:19.800
<v Speaker 2>have any thoughts on this episode.

0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:23.279
<v Speaker 5>I think it's really cool that Josper's mom took her

0:47:23.320 --> 0:47:27.359
<v Speaker 5>to therapy outside of the community that they were so

0:47:27.640 --> 0:47:28.200
<v Speaker 5>involved in.

0:47:29.160 --> 0:47:33.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's pretty brave in the context of a community

0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:37.360
<v Speaker 2>like that, I think so often that wouldn't happen just

0:47:37.480 --> 0:47:40.400
<v Speaker 2>because of what the consequences could be for the parent

0:47:40.920 --> 0:47:41.480
<v Speaker 2>or for the kid.

0:47:41.800 --> 0:47:45.480
<v Speaker 5>Well, yeah, and so often, like her therapist, you know,

0:47:45.560 --> 0:47:49.399
<v Speaker 5>she said, was incredible and wasn't going up against her

0:47:49.400 --> 0:47:52.200
<v Speaker 5>beliefs started telling her what to do or anything like that.

0:47:52.280 --> 0:47:56.160
<v Speaker 5>But I remember having been sent to therapy for my

0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:59.400
<v Speaker 5>own eating disorder and them just kind of being like,

0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:00.279
<v Speaker 5>what what.

0:48:00.360 --> 0:48:03.600
<v Speaker 1>Is your family I believe that, you know? Oh right? Wow?

0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:04.759
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah.

0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:08.480
<v Speaker 5>So not to discourage anybody from going to therapy if

0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:10.880
<v Speaker 5>they're afraid of getting their beliefs questioned.

0:48:10.520 --> 0:48:13.640
<v Speaker 2>But well, you know, just a quick callback to the

0:48:13.640 --> 0:48:15.919
<v Speaker 2>IXA conference again that I went to the other week,

0:48:15.960 --> 0:48:18.400
<v Speaker 2>because there were a lot of survivors there and a

0:48:18.400 --> 0:48:21.080
<v Speaker 2>lot of therapists and some people who were both who

0:48:21.160 --> 0:48:24.040
<v Speaker 2>went into therapy because of their experiences, who were talking

0:48:24.040 --> 0:48:29.880
<v Speaker 2>about how difficult it was to get appropriate therapy because

0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:33.359
<v Speaker 2>there aren't enough people trained in the consequences of course

0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:35.839
<v Speaker 2>of control and what that looks like psychologically and what

0:48:36.120 --> 0:48:39.600
<v Speaker 2>you know how to treat it right, which is you know, yeah,

0:48:39.600 --> 0:48:42.120
<v Speaker 2>it's just a specific thing, and religious trauma is a

0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:45.480
<v Speaker 2>specific thing, but emerging from a closed system is like

0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:50.160
<v Speaker 2>a very unique therapeutic thing to tackle. Yes, that's why

0:48:50.200 --> 0:48:52.640
<v Speaker 2>it's like, so it is so important to try to

0:48:52.680 --> 0:48:55.480
<v Speaker 2>find somebody who has some language for that stuff.

0:48:55.760 --> 0:49:01.120
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, and perhaps won't attack the system when you're not

0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:04.680
<v Speaker 5>ready for it to be absolutely absolutely yeah. And that

0:49:04.800 --> 0:49:06.960
<v Speaker 5>was the big theme of the weekend too. I mean

0:49:07.080 --> 0:49:11.560
<v Speaker 5>people just continue to say how important that was for them. Well,

0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:15.799
<v Speaker 5>very interesting stuff. Thank you so much, Josper for coming on.

0:49:16.520 --> 0:49:18.920
<v Speaker 5>Remember to go rate us five stars, leave us a

0:49:18.960 --> 0:49:23.279
<v Speaker 5>comment if you like us, and as always, remember to

0:49:23.320 --> 0:49:26.960
<v Speaker 5>follow your gut, watch out for red flax, and never

0:49:27.800 --> 0:49:29.640
<v Speaker 5>ever trust me.

0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:31.800
<v Speaker 3>Bye.

0:49:33.239 --> 0:49:35.759
<v Speaker 2>This has been an exactly right production hosted by me

0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:39.560
<v Speaker 2>Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is

0:49:39.640 --> 0:49:40.160
<v Speaker 2>Gee Holley.

0:49:40.480 --> 0:49:42.280
<v Speaker 6>This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

0:49:42.440 --> 0:49:45.760
<v Speaker 5>Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

0:49:45.880 --> 0:49:46.880
<v Speaker 5>is Patrick Kuttner.

0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:49.560
<v Speaker 6>Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

0:49:49.880 --> 0:49:53.920
<v Speaker 5>Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark

0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:54.920
<v Speaker 5>and Danielle Kramer.

0:49:55.160 --> 0:49:57.440
<v Speaker 2>You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

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<v Speaker 2>or on TikTok at trust.

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0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:03.160
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<v Speaker 5>Shoot us an email at trustmepodat gmail dot com.

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