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Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, Happy August. This time of

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Speaker 1: year means that our show will be going on a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a summer break, and that's quite fitting

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Speaker 1: because I'm also just about to begin my own long break.

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Speaker 1: You see, this entire academic school year all beyond sabbatical

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Speaker 1: for my role as a professor at Yale. It's super

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Speaker 1: exciting to get a break. But if I'm being honest,

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Speaker 1: I'm also a little worried that my time away from

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Speaker 1: my teaching could be more challenging than I expect. Will

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Speaker 1: it be weird to make a sudden shift from all

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Speaker 1: my usual to dos? How can I make the most

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Speaker 1: of this privilege of a little bit of time away

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Speaker 1: to recharge and reflect. Luckily, there are great answers to

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Speaker 1: these questions in an awesome new book called Big Time Off,

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Speaker 1: The Transformative Power of Sabbaticals and How to Take One.

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Speaker 1: It's by my good friend and colleague DJ Dedonna, a

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Speaker 1: professor at Harvard Business School and expert on why time

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Speaker 1: off is so essential. DJ and I had a chance

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Speaker 1: to talk about the transformative power of time off last

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Speaker 1: year during a live episode at south By Southwest. I

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Speaker 1: decided to share that episode with You again this week,

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Speaker 1: mostly because I need to remind myself about all of

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Speaker 1: DJ's great advice. And if you've been feeling a bit

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Speaker 1: overwhelmed in your own work life and are thinking of

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Speaker 1: looking into a break, I'd very much recommend checking out

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Speaker 1: DJ's new book, Big Time Off. It's on sale map. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's me and DJ back in the day at Happiness

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Speaker 1: Lab live at south By Southwest work. It consumes a

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Speaker 1: lot of our time and a lot of our mental bandwidth.

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Speaker 1: I bet you've had moments where you've longed for a

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Speaker 1: vacation or even fantasized about hitting retirement age. But there's

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Speaker 1: another option for taking a break from the grind, a

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Speaker 1: decision that can help you recharge and reassess. It's called

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Speaker 1: a sabbatical. As a professor, I've had the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: take an academic sabbatical every few years, and I've been

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Speaker 1: very open on the show about just how rejuvenating and

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Speaker 1: important those breaks were. But what if you aren't a professor?

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Speaker 1: Can you still take a month's long break from your job.

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Speaker 1: It may sound like a pipe dream, but more and

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Speaker 1: more workplaces are coming around to the idea that extended

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Speaker 1: employee leaves are a good thing, So to discuss the

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Speaker 1: rise of the sabbatical and its many benefits, I recorded

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Speaker 1: a live edition of the Happiness Lab at the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five south By Southwest Festival in Austin, and I

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Speaker 1: got to talk with one of the leading advocates of

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Speaker 1: the modern sabbatical.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Happiness Lab live here at

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Speaker 2: south By Southwest. I am here in front of a

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Speaker 2: fabulous live audience and we're going to be talking today

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Speaker 2: about the importance of sabbaticals and taking some rest. And

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Speaker 2: I'm excited to introduce my guest today, DJ Dedonna. DJ

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Speaker 2: is senior lecturer at Harvard Business School. In his former career,

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Speaker 2: he was co founder.

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Speaker 1: Of ef Global. These days, DJ spends his time thinking

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Speaker 1: about sabbaticals and their transformative effects. He's most recently become

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Speaker 1: the founder of the Sabbatical Project, a nonprofit aimed at

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Speaker 1: creating a world where extended leave is the norm rather

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Speaker 1: than the exception. This sounds like a world I want

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Speaker 1: to live in for sure. DJ's work on the transformative

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Speaker 1: benefits of sabbaticals has been labeled Harvard Brisoner. If you

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Speaker 1: use new idea for twenty twenty five. So I think

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Speaker 1: we're going to be seeing a lot more of sabbaticals

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Speaker 1: this year than before. DJ's work has appeared in the Atlantic,

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Speaker 1: Time Magazine, Fast Company, Fortune, in the Wall Street Journal,

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Speaker 1: and lots more. And today we're going to be talking

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Speaker 1: about the research behind why an extended break can be

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Speaker 1: so important and what you can do to convince yourself

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Speaker 1: and your employer that you might need one.

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Speaker 2: Please join me and welcoming DJ Dedata. So, DJ, I'm

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Speaker 2: curious how you became such a fan of sabbaticals. As

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Speaker 2: I understand it, this started with a time when you

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Speaker 2: yourself need a sabbatical, a moment that you call your

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Speaker 2: ice scream sandwich moment.

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Speaker 1: What was that?

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Speaker 3: So I entered sabbatical land as I call it, as

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Speaker 3: most people do, which is unintentionally. So if you don't

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Speaker 3: take a sabbatical, a sabbatical will take you likely. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'd run my company for seven years and I was

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Speaker 3: feeling lower and lower energy, tough to get out of bed,

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Speaker 3: and I was growing even worse facial hair than I

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Speaker 3: have now, and my co founders were like, are you okay?

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Speaker 3: And I think at some point, you know when it

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Speaker 3: was your dream job, and you can't get out of

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Speaker 3: bed to do your job.

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Speaker 4: There's a problem.

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Speaker 3: It brings up all certain types of emotions around, like

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Speaker 3: if this won't make me happy, what will. The ice

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Speaker 3: cream sandwich moment was on a particularly sad kind of weekend.

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Speaker 4: It was Friday, had no plans.

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Speaker 3: I was watching a very depressing Netflix series, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, I just really want an ice cream sandwich.

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Speaker 3: I lived in Cambridge, and so there's plenty of like

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Speaker 3: late night mistakes you can make, but I didn't want

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Speaker 3: to like walk into the cookie place, you know, late

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Speaker 3: at night on a Friday by myself. So I was like,

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Speaker 3: I'll just place an order for this, and I didn't

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Speaker 3: want the delivery driver to think that I was a loser.

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Speaker 3: So I was like, I'll place two orders for ice

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Speaker 3: cream sandwiches. And so I went down, got the sandwiches.

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Speaker 3: You know, hey, I'll be right down and I come back.

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Speaker 3: I eat one of them, thankfully not to and then

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Speaker 3: I'd go to put the kind of pizza box size

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Speaker 3: thing into the fridge. And I woke up the next

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Speaker 3: morning and my fridge had defrosted and ruined my floors,

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Speaker 3: and I was like Okay, this is the sign that

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Speaker 3: I needed to take a sabbatical. So that's how I

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Speaker 3: entered into sabbatical land.

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Speaker 1: So you made this decision to take the sabbatical, like,

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Speaker 1: but you were the head of this company that you

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Speaker 1: were loving, Like, was that scary? What went through your head?

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Speaker 1: Is you made that decision?

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons why folks call it a sabbatical

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Speaker 3: is because it's this tidy term for something that feels

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Speaker 3: like your life is ending right. And so I think

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Speaker 3: for me, you know, I talked to my co founder

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Speaker 3: and he was feeling a little bit burnt out as well,

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Speaker 3: especially from the perspective of entrepreneurship. I think, if you

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Speaker 3: can't build up an organization that can survive without you

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Speaker 3: after seven or ten years, you haven't done an awesome job.

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Speaker 3: And so we were both you know, acknowledging, hey, let's

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Speaker 3: give some time to step away. But honestly, I had

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Speaker 3: no idea what was on the other side. I started

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Speaker 3: it with the pretense that I was going to come

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Speaker 3: back to the company, but I just I couldn't really

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Speaker 3: continue anymore as was going.

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Speaker 4: So decided to step away.

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Speaker 3: Said four months feels, you know, like the longest time

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Speaker 3: I've ever taken off by a factor of eight.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, so that's that's what I decided.

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Speaker 1: To do, and so what happened.

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Speaker 3: So when I think about how I describe my sabbatical,

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Speaker 3: because everyone's sabbatical is different, and I don't want to

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Speaker 3: intimidate folks that might not be able to do or

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Speaker 3: want to do the thing that I did. There's like

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Speaker 3: the Marquee events. So I did this eight hundred mile

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Speaker 3: pilgrimage in Japan. I'd really wanted to investigate on the

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Speaker 3: spiritual side, something that I felt was important but rarely urgent, right,

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Speaker 3: So that was kind of like the Marquee event. But

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Speaker 3: really some of the more impactful moments on the sabbatical

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Speaker 3: were things that I don't put up on the billboard.

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Speaker 3: So I was nursing one of my parents back to health.

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Speaker 3: So I moved back home, you know, age thirty two,

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Speaker 3: cooked lot of meals. I helped a cousin of mine

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Speaker 3: move and another cousin of mine build a deck, so

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Speaker 3: I hung cabinets myself and got to have that experience,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I wrote my first song. I bought

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Speaker 3: a ukulele on Amazon, which is super embarrassing, and I

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Speaker 3: brought it along on the on the trip, and so

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Speaker 3: I wrote and performed my first song in a place

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Speaker 3: where definitely no one would know me.

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Speaker 4: So that was that was helpful.

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Speaker 1: And so I think we're going to talk about what

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Speaker 1: you learned from this and some of the benefits soon.

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Speaker 1: But I want to start with some definitions because I'm

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Speaker 1: an nerdy professor and that's that's where I go. And

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Speaker 1: so how do you define a sabbatical?

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Speaker 3: So the definition that I think about is an intentional

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Speaker 3: extended leave from your routine job. So intentional, not that

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Speaker 3: you have to have made the decision to take it,

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Speaker 3: because most sabbaticals kind of happened to you, but that

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Speaker 3: once you're on sabbatical, you stay there, right. And so

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Speaker 3: as soon as we leave a job, our new job

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Speaker 3: is to find another job.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: It's like very hard to be in that kind of

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Speaker 3: liminal state between careers, between jobs.

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Speaker 4: So in order for it.

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Speaker 3: To be a sabbatical, you gotta like create space, not

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Speaker 3: look for another job. Extended, So it has to be

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Speaker 3: measured in months, not weeks. I think we like to

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Speaker 3: say at least three months. I took four. I wish

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Speaker 3: it would have been six. Most people I think would

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Speaker 3: like to take between six and twelve. Nine is very

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Speaker 3: symbolic because you're kind of like creating something new.

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Speaker 4: And then from your routine job.

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Speaker 3: So most folks, especially type A achievers, probably some in

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Speaker 3: this room, we'll say like, all right, I'm gonna go

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Speaker 3: off work and then I'm gonna learn how to be

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Speaker 3: fluent on a foreign language or I'm gonna like write

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Speaker 3: a book or something like that. And what we found

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Speaker 3: in the research is actually that active rest. So doing

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Speaker 3: a job that is not your job can actually be

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Speaker 3: fulfilling and healing as long as it's not similar to

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Speaker 3: your routine job at all. Right, So don't do like

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Speaker 3: consulting projects to make a little bit more money, like

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Speaker 3: really switch out of your routine job, routine work into

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Speaker 3: something that feels fulfilling. So write that book, like become

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Speaker 3: a yoga teacher certified, right, but has to be very

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Speaker 3: different from what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a funny word, right, you use this

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Speaker 1: term extendedly. It's not a vacation, it's a sabbatical. It

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Speaker 1: kind of sounds almost like old school, like like the

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Speaker 1: Bible like a sabbatical, right, I mean, is that intentional.

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Speaker 1: Where did this concept come from?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the root of the word is ancient, comes

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Speaker 3: from Hebrew scripture Shabbat, right, and so this concept that

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Speaker 3: you work for six days and on the seventh day

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Speaker 3: you devote that to worship. That also expands it out

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Speaker 3: into you're supposed to till the feels for six years

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Speaker 3: and then let them lie fallow for one year. And

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Speaker 3: so that's the notion of the rest right, that you

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Speaker 3: have to have rest in some sort of period of time.

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Speaker 3: Then it was kind of taken on by academia. So

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Speaker 3: late nineteenth century, the president of Harvard I went through

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Speaker 3: and looked up the notes like the minutes, the meeting minutes,

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Speaker 3: which is fun They had done research on how much

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Speaker 3: breaks do faculty need in order to replenish themselves, and

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Speaker 3: also to do research so they would have to go

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Speaker 3: over to Europe to figure out like what's actually going

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Speaker 3: on in the academy. And the funny thing about that

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Speaker 3: was that in the definition there it talked about rest

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Speaker 3: and recovery and also pursuit of science and knowledge. And

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Speaker 3: if you look now, like the rest and recovery piece

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Speaker 3: is totally dubiously absent from all these kind of academic

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Speaker 3: sabbatical leave policies. But that's the basic history of the terminology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, as a professor, many people in academia

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Speaker 1: get something like a sabbatical thing it's going away. But

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Speaker 1: this is really rare in other fields.

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Speaker 3: Right, totally rare, and it's increasingly rare in academia. Right,

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Speaker 3: Folks that are, you know, are not getting paid for

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Speaker 3: it or it shrinking down into a semester. Maybe we

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Speaker 3: can talk about your sabbatical later. But it's you know,

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Speaker 3: about five percent of companies offer this policy. It's much

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Speaker 3: more prevalent, you know, and kind of like tech and

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Speaker 3: companies where they're really trying to recruit talent and retain talent.

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Speaker 3: It's increasing, So it's doubled since twenty nineteen, and it

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Speaker 3: seems to be increasing over time, but still definitely the minority,

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Speaker 3: especially paid sabbatical with some sort of benefits and that

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Speaker 3: sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And so you've done this cool project where you've been

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Speaker 1: studying sabbaticals scientifically, You've done hundreds of interviews dozens of

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Speaker 1: different academic studies. From your research, I'm curious who is

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Speaker 1: taking sabbaticals and why are they taking them?

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Speaker 3: So when I first started out, I thought I was

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Speaker 3: the customer, and so people who are in their mid

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Speaker 3: thirties and forties who burn out take sabbaticals. And then

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Speaker 3: what I started to realize is that folks are starting

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Speaker 3: as early as kind of gap years. They're tagging along

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Speaker 3: with their parents sabbaticals. So when I thought about the

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Speaker 3: research and the book, it's kind of going from gap

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Speaker 3: years to twilight careers, so kind of like pre retirement

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Speaker 3: type age. So it's really anyone that either has something

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Speaker 3: forced upon them or takes this opportunity to take time off.

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Speaker 4: I think gap years are a great example of.

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Speaker 1: That, and so why are they taking them? Like what happens?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, two thirds of sabbaticals are catalyzed by

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Speaker 3: a very negative event, So either a personal health crisis

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Speaker 3: or you get fired, or you know, let's say, like

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Speaker 3: a global calamity or pandemic forces you to think about

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Speaker 3: work totally differently. And then there's also positive catalysts, right,

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Speaker 3: so you sell your company, you know, you get like

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Speaker 3: a kind of employment leave, things like that. And then

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Speaker 3: I like to say this neutral catalyst of if you

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Speaker 3: have a company, if you work for a company.

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Speaker 4: With a sabbatical policy.

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Speaker 3: Then you get to take that time off and you

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Speaker 3: don't even have to think about it, and you know

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of companies that offer that, and

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Speaker 3: then also countries that enable people to do it, Like

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Speaker 3: in Sweden you can take six months off to try

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Speaker 3: to start a business. In Australia, if you're a civil servant,

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Speaker 3: you get six months off every seven years.

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Speaker 1: Man, I didn't realize there are countries that were doing this.

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Speaker 1: That is exciting, and that also reminds me that your

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Speaker 1: research has shown that there's lots of misconceptions when it

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Speaker 1: comes to sabbaticals. So let's let's go through some of these.

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Speaker 1: I think when I think of sabbaticals, I first think,

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Speaker 1: maybe we're just dealing with like a longish vacation. How

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Speaker 1: is this sabbatical different than that?

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Speaker 3: So everyone who has taken a sabbatical has also taken

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Speaker 3: a vacation, and they're saying that something profoundly different is

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Speaker 3: going on. When you're on vacation, all the things you're

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Speaker 3: on vacation from are piling up in the back right,

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Speaker 3: your inbox is piling up. You know that you have

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Speaker 3: to come back to work and get things done. When

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Speaker 3: you're on sabbatical, you're gone long enough so that those

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Speaker 3: things are off of your plate, so you can actually

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Speaker 3: kind of deepen into what's going on and you don't

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Speaker 3: have to worry about like what's happening at work.

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Speaker 1: So different misconception is this idea that sabbaticals are basically

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Speaker 1: a midlife crisis. It's your freak out. You don't know

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Speaker 1: what you're doing, you're burning out, Like I guess that's

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Speaker 1: maybe part of some sabbaticals, but that doesn't define it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we talked about the times when people take

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Speaker 3: the sabbaticals over the course of their life, and we

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Speaker 3: talked about whether or not you take a sabbatical or

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Speaker 3: sabbatical takes you. So that can certainly be the case

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Speaker 3: where you're living a life that doesn't feel authentic to

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Speaker 3: you long enough that you feel like you have to

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Speaker 3: kind of burn the boats and like cast off lines.

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Speaker 3: I think I was a little precocious in my midlife crisis,

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Speaker 3: like a little bit earlier than midlife. Hopefully you think

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Speaker 3: about it like a dental cleaning appointment, Like you want

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Speaker 3: to take these like cleaning appointments, right, we don't love them,

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Speaker 3: but you try to take them every six months so

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Speaker 3: that you don't have like a root canal emergency. So

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Speaker 3: the whole goal of this is can you identify inflection

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Speaker 3: points in your life to take them off as opposed

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Speaker 3: to waiting for some big crisis to pull you into

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Speaker 3: sabbatical land.

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Speaker 1: All right, here's another misconception that I think comes on

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Speaker 1: the employer side, the idea that sabbatical is basically just

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Speaker 1: a golden parachute, like you take a break from a

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Speaker 1: job that you're thinking about basically getting the heck out

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Speaker 1: of anyway? Is this the case?

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Speaker 3: So what we found in the research is that the

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Speaker 3: super majority of people that take a sabbatical that's enabled

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Speaker 3: by their company come back, so over eighty percent come

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Speaker 3: back to their job. So it's not really a golden parachute. Now,

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Speaker 3: people do leave. But the difference, and we can get

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Speaker 3: more into this around kind of what's in it for companies.

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Speaker 4: The difference is you're spending a.

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Speaker 3: Bunch of time preparing the company to do all the

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Speaker 3: tasks that you're doing before you leave on sabbatical, and

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Speaker 3: so you're kind of like preparing the company for you

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Speaker 3: to be gone, and you're also like allowing the company

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Speaker 3: to see like, what are all the things that you do?

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Speaker 3: Who else could be doing it? Who could be stepping

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Speaker 3: up in your midst things like that, So not really

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Speaker 3: a golden parachute. But people do leave. I think the

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Speaker 3: argument is if someone's going to leave as soon as

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Speaker 3: you let them out of the door and off the leash,

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Speaker 3: like were they doing great work?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? But do we have data on it, like how

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Speaker 1: many people actually take off after a sabbatical?

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Speaker 4: About twenty percent? Yeah, so it is.

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Speaker 1: It's non zero, but it's not like eighty percent or

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Speaker 1: hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: And you know one hundred percent of the people who

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Speaker 3: don't have a sabbatical policy at work are taking off

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Speaker 3: to take a sabbatical.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, fair, that's fair. And that it's a different misconception,

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Speaker 1: which is this idea that sabbaticals are sort of costly

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Speaker 1: for businesses. But but you've argued a better way to

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Speaker 1: think about them as an investment. What do you mean?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think listen, as I was saying about an

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Speaker 3: entrepreneurial company, if it if it can't survive without you

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Speaker 3: leaving it as a leader, that's a problem. Similarly, turnover

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Speaker 3: is just something that happens, like how many people here

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Speaker 3: have left a job.

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Speaker 1: Right, That was a lot of hands for the listeners that.

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Speaker 4: You haven't left a job.

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Speaker 3: So people are going to leave anyway, and as a

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Speaker 3: company you have to be prepared. You have to be

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Speaker 3: resilient to survive turnover. People are going to quit, they're

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Speaker 3: going to go on parental leave, and so it is practice.

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Speaker 3: It's like building a muscle of figuring out what tasks

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Speaker 3: you have, offloading them onto other people, and really kind

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Speaker 3: of investing in that muscle as a company.

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Speaker 1: So when we get back from the break, we're going

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Speaker 1: to see why a sabbatical can be such a helpful investment,

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Speaker 1: not just for the person taking it, but even more

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Speaker 1: for the company that allows it. The Happiness Lab will

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Speaker 1: be back in a moment. You're listening to a live

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Speaker 1: edition of The Happiness Lab recorded at south By Southwest

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five with my friend the Sabbatical Expert, DJ Dedonna.

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Speaker 1: I started this next section of the show by asking

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Speaker 1: DJ to give us a breakdown of the average sabbatical

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Speaker 1: and to explain how the benefits of taking a break

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Speaker 1: tend to unfold.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so from a personal perspective, I think you can

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Speaker 3: expect a lot of things and if you're coming into

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Speaker 3: the sabbatical super burnt out, then you probably need to heal,

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Speaker 3: and that's going to be the first thing that you get.

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Speaker 3: So in the research, in my interviews, I talked to

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Speaker 3: a ton of people that had some sort of physical ailment,

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Speaker 3: whether it's ulcers, stomach, gastro stuff, and they've been told

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Speaker 3: by doctors this is stress related, but until they actually

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Speaker 3: stepped away from work long enough for that to heal,

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Speaker 3: they couldn't kind of grock that right. So I think

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Speaker 3: healing is one of the first things. Creativity is one

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Speaker 3: of the next things. So you're taking time off and

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Speaker 3: you're doing whatever you want to do, and that ends

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Speaker 3: up like kind of reigniting a lot of creativity. For me,

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Speaker 3: it was writing silly songs on ukulele, but like whatever

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Speaker 3: you would like to do. We think about like working

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Speaker 3: on ourselves as work as opposed to play. So there's

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Speaker 3: this concept of identity play as helping you run the

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Speaker 3: little experiments, figure out what you want to do next.

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Speaker 4: And then I think confidence is a huge one.

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Speaker 3: No matter if you have a sabbatical policy at your

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Speaker 3: company or not, it's pretty scary to launch off for

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Speaker 3: an extended period of time, like I'd never taken more

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Speaker 3: than a couple weeks off work since I don't know

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Speaker 3: middle school, and so to take four months off that scary, especially.

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Speaker 4: If you're leaving your job. What are you going to

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Speaker 4: do on the other side of it?

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Speaker 3: That sort of thing, And so being able to do

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Speaker 3: something that seems scary and then come back and say, actually,

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Speaker 3: I'm fine really builds up people's confidence to take big

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Speaker 3: steps in big leaps. It's also hopefully running experiments on

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Speaker 3: your sabbatical to say like, oh, I thought that I

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Speaker 3: wanted to write, and I actually like writing, and so

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Speaker 3: that builds up confidence and the ability to do it.

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Speaker 1: And it seems like from your research when you talk

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Speaker 1: to people, these benefits are really common, Like this is

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Speaker 1: just what you hear everybody take sabbatical.

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Speaker 3: Saying yeah, I mean, it's funny because I came back

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Speaker 3: from my sabbatical and I said that was really changed

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Speaker 3: who I was as a person. So this kind of

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Speaker 3: identity was enmeshed with my company, and if the company

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Speaker 3: was successful, I was successful. If it wasn't, I wasn't,

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Speaker 3: And so I was able to kind of break free

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Speaker 3: from that. But I wanted to check to make sure,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't just my experience. And so the more folks

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Speaker 3: that I talked to, the more you just kept hearing

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Speaker 3: these terms like peak life experience. It's up there with

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Speaker 3: like having a child, like getting married. So you're creating

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Speaker 3: an event for yourself that will be one of the

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Speaker 3: most important events of your entire life.

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Speaker 1: It also seems like you take time to notice the

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Speaker 1: things that you're not doing. You've talked a lot in

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Speaker 1: your work about this idea of functional workaholism and how

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Speaker 1: a sabbatical can help you penetrate into that a little bit.

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Speaker 3: What do you mean, Yeah, so we talk a lot

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Speaker 3: about burnout. I view burnout as a spectrum, So you're

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Speaker 3: kind of like you're like burning out right, You're existing

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Speaker 3: on a spectrum where you're not doing your best, not

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Speaker 3: feeling great. That's kind of hard to realize unless you

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Speaker 3: step out from it. And stepping out I'm assuming you've

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Speaker 3: all had the experience where you go on a vacation

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Speaker 3: for a week and right at the end you're like, oh, man,

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Speaker 3: I was just sinking into it and then you have

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Speaker 3: to PLoP back into work. So stepping out long enough

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Speaker 3: to say, wow, the way that I was working, and

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Speaker 3: the way that I was living was actually not serving me,

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Speaker 3: and I want to just step out of that for

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Speaker 3: a little bit. I might want to make a big change.

430
00:19:56,276 --> 00:19:59,676
Speaker 3: But obviously people's experience of COVID varied widely, but I

431
00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:02,476
Speaker 3: think a lot of folks saw, oh, man, now that

432
00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:04,516
Speaker 3: I'm back at home with my family, I actually want

433
00:20:04,516 --> 00:20:06,836
Speaker 3: to do that more. And like the way that I

434
00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:08,636
Speaker 3: was kind of returning back to my family or or

435
00:20:08,836 --> 00:20:11,316
Speaker 3: you know, even how I was working was not really great.

436
00:20:11,556 --> 00:20:13,876
Speaker 3: So you needed like some perspective and like a long

437
00:20:13,956 --> 00:20:16,036
Speaker 3: enough break from the norm to understand that.

438
00:20:16,436 --> 00:20:18,636
Speaker 1: And also this seems connected to this idea you've talked

439
00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:22,196
Speaker 1: about called regret insurance, right, maybe like a benefit that

440
00:20:22,236 --> 00:20:23,156
Speaker 1: comes later in life.

441
00:20:23,156 --> 00:20:23,956
Speaker 4: What's that like?

442
00:20:24,036 --> 00:20:26,836
Speaker 3: Imagine you're, you know, the age of your grandparents, and

443
00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:29,796
Speaker 3: you're telling your grandkid a story, like what do you

444
00:20:29,916 --> 00:20:31,636
Speaker 3: want to have in that story?

445
00:20:31,876 --> 00:20:32,956
Speaker 4: Brownie Ware, who is.

446
00:20:32,956 --> 00:20:35,076
Speaker 3: A palliat of care nurse, talks about the five Regrets

447
00:20:35,076 --> 00:20:37,876
Speaker 3: of the dying and this notion that you have not

448
00:20:38,236 --> 00:20:41,396
Speaker 3: lived a life authentic to yourself. If you close your

449
00:20:41,396 --> 00:20:43,796
Speaker 3: eyes real quick and think, like, what would I want

450
00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:45,596
Speaker 3: to do with my life? If I could do anything.

451
00:20:45,996 --> 00:20:48,636
Speaker 3: Can that happen in the life that you're living now? Maybe,

452
00:20:48,676 --> 00:20:50,796
Speaker 3: but probably not, Like it takes a little bit of time,

453
00:20:50,836 --> 00:20:53,636
Speaker 3: and taking six months off in the scheme of working

454
00:20:53,676 --> 00:20:55,476
Speaker 3: for forty years is just not that much time.

455
00:20:55,516 --> 00:20:56,916
Speaker 4: It's less than two percent.

456
00:20:57,196 --> 00:20:59,076
Speaker 1: I mean, if you know then what you knew now,

457
00:20:59,076 --> 00:21:01,516
Speaker 1: would you still choose the sabbatical? Would you do it differently?

458
00:21:01,956 --> 00:21:02,196
Speaker 4: Yeah?

459
00:21:02,236 --> 00:21:04,156
Speaker 3: Actually, one of the things that spurred me to taking

460
00:21:04,156 --> 00:21:06,996
Speaker 3: my sabbatical was advice from a mentor. I went into

461
00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:10,076
Speaker 3: that mentor's office and I was comple planning. You know, hey,

462
00:21:10,116 --> 00:21:12,516
Speaker 3: like this is hard, this is tough. The company's not

463
00:21:12,556 --> 00:21:14,076
Speaker 3: working as much as I would like it to be,

464
00:21:14,236 --> 00:21:17,636
Speaker 3: or whatnot. And he said, DJ, if you knew then

465
00:21:17,756 --> 00:21:19,596
Speaker 3: all the things you know about your life and your

466
00:21:19,636 --> 00:21:22,236
Speaker 3: company now, would you join that company again tomorrow?

467
00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:24,796
Speaker 4: And it was very clear. I was like, absolutely not.

468
00:21:26,236 --> 00:21:28,436
Speaker 3: And so I think, like the tough part about our

469
00:21:28,476 --> 00:21:30,476
Speaker 3: lives is it's lived kind of with this inertia. You've

470
00:21:30,476 --> 00:21:31,956
Speaker 3: made a bunch of small decisions and all of a

471
00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:33,396
Speaker 3: sudden you find yourself in this path.

472
00:21:33,916 --> 00:21:34,596
Speaker 4: So I guess.

473
00:21:34,516 --> 00:21:37,196
Speaker 3: Encouraging you to think about would you want to return

474
00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:39,236
Speaker 3: to this exact life and if not, how are you

475
00:21:39,276 --> 00:21:41,356
Speaker 3: going to run experiments to figure out what other track

476
00:21:41,396 --> 00:21:43,436
Speaker 3: you need to be on. So long way to answer

477
00:21:43,436 --> 00:21:45,756
Speaker 3: your question, but I look back at that time and

478
00:21:45,796 --> 00:21:48,556
Speaker 3: it's the most dense period of memories in my entire life.

479
00:21:48,596 --> 00:21:50,876
Speaker 3: It was eight years ago right now, I was walking

480
00:21:50,916 --> 00:21:53,276
Speaker 3: in Japan, and so that will serve me, I think,

481
00:21:53,316 --> 00:21:54,156
Speaker 3: for the rest of my life.

482
00:21:54,276 --> 00:21:56,276
Speaker 1: So it seems like sabbaticals are serving the people who

483
00:21:56,316 --> 00:21:58,516
Speaker 1: take them. But now I really want to jump into

484
00:21:58,516 --> 00:22:01,316
Speaker 1: these benefits that employers can get because I think this

485
00:22:01,556 --> 00:22:03,916
Speaker 1: is one of the reasons that sabbaticals aren't just equal

486
00:22:03,996 --> 00:22:06,036
Speaker 1: for everyone, that not every company is doing this right

487
00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:08,196
Speaker 1: is I think employers are really worried about whether this

488
00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:11,196
Speaker 1: is going to be incredibly for companies. We talked a

489
00:22:11,236 --> 00:22:13,196
Speaker 1: little bit about some of these benefits, but I want

490
00:22:13,196 --> 00:22:15,356
Speaker 1: to do a deeper dive, like what are companies really

491
00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:17,716
Speaker 1: getting out of this when they set up sabbatical policies.

492
00:22:17,796 --> 00:22:17,996
Speaker 4: Yeah.

493
00:22:18,156 --> 00:22:19,916
Speaker 3: I think it's a great point in the sense that

494
00:22:20,276 --> 00:22:23,596
Speaker 3: the best case scenario is that a sabbatical that doesn't

495
00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:26,156
Speaker 3: require you to like blow your life up, doesn't require

496
00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:28,556
Speaker 3: you to save up for ten years, is possible because

497
00:22:28,596 --> 00:22:31,436
Speaker 3: your company values in you enough to do it. And

498
00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:33,436
Speaker 3: so all of us who work at companies, who our

499
00:22:33,436 --> 00:22:36,316
Speaker 3: managers are also people, So we're taking our people had

500
00:22:36,356 --> 00:22:39,196
Speaker 3: off and putting our company hat on. So this resilience

501
00:22:39,316 --> 00:22:42,036
Speaker 3: is just a huge piece like having a company be

502
00:22:42,076 --> 00:22:45,196
Speaker 3: able to withstand what they call keyperson risk. One of

503
00:22:45,236 --> 00:22:47,836
Speaker 3: the interviewees was like the principal and founder of this

504
00:22:47,916 --> 00:22:50,476
Speaker 3: boarding school in South Africa, and you know, he'd been

505
00:22:50,476 --> 00:22:53,116
Speaker 3: there from day one. It was ten years in and

506
00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:56,436
Speaker 3: he stepped aside for six months because his spouse was

507
00:22:56,476 --> 00:22:59,716
Speaker 3: doing a degree in Europe. And by stepping away, he

508
00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:01,996
Speaker 3: was able to see that, like some of the things

509
00:23:02,116 --> 00:23:04,796
Speaker 3: ran really well in his absence, maybe even like a

510
00:23:04,836 --> 00:23:08,236
Speaker 3: little bit better right the operation side, and then other

511
00:23:08,276 --> 00:23:11,196
Speaker 3: stuff like fund RAI fell off an absolute cliff right,

512
00:23:11,236 --> 00:23:13,916
Speaker 3: And so the organization got to see what it was

513
00:23:13,996 --> 00:23:16,396
Speaker 3: like when he stepped away, and you know, junior folks

514
00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:18,396
Speaker 3: got to step up into roles and have kind of

515
00:23:18,436 --> 00:23:21,476
Speaker 3: career stretch experiences. But also he got to figure out like, Okay,

516
00:23:21,476 --> 00:23:23,996
Speaker 3: if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, like this

517
00:23:24,036 --> 00:23:26,356
Speaker 3: thing is going to fail and that's not great. And

518
00:23:26,396 --> 00:23:29,156
Speaker 3: so like really developing like the resilience to say, okay,

519
00:23:29,196 --> 00:23:31,836
Speaker 3: if I do want to transition out, what kind of

520
00:23:31,836 --> 00:23:34,116
Speaker 3: skills do need to kind of manage inside of the organization.

521
00:23:34,356 --> 00:23:37,196
Speaker 3: So I think tenure and loyalty to the company. We

522
00:23:37,236 --> 00:23:39,396
Speaker 3: talk a lot about people finding meaning at work, but

523
00:23:39,436 --> 00:23:41,396
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, I'm sorry, like most

524
00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:44,116
Speaker 3: companies cannot provide a ton of like meaning and purpose

525
00:23:44,996 --> 00:23:49,676
Speaker 3: and so yeah, yeah, and that's fine, that's fine. But

526
00:23:49,716 --> 00:23:51,516
Speaker 3: I think what the company can do is they can

527
00:23:51,556 --> 00:23:53,996
Speaker 3: give you time to yourself to do the thing that's

528
00:23:53,996 --> 00:23:56,396
Speaker 3: meaningful for you, and I think the impact of that

529
00:23:56,516 --> 00:23:58,636
Speaker 3: is that people have more loyalty to the company. One

530
00:23:58,636 --> 00:24:01,116
Speaker 3: of our interviews was from the US Treasury. They had

531
00:24:01,116 --> 00:24:03,516
Speaker 3: this long service leave policy where you can take six

532
00:24:03,556 --> 00:24:05,956
Speaker 3: months off and she got to go and do like

533
00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:09,356
Speaker 3: mountaineering and trekking in Latin America, and it was long

534
00:24:09,476 --> 00:24:12,236
Speaker 3: enough to say, I like trekking, I like being on vacation,

535
00:24:12,356 --> 00:24:14,436
Speaker 3: but I also really like the work, you know, international

536
00:24:14,476 --> 00:24:16,796
Speaker 3: development work. She was not planning on having a family.

537
00:24:16,876 --> 00:24:19,236
Speaker 3: She's like, I appreciate the ability to step outside of

538
00:24:19,236 --> 00:24:22,636
Speaker 3: my work for a stretch and become kind of appreciative

539
00:24:22,676 --> 00:24:24,516
Speaker 3: of that work again, and I know I can do

540
00:24:24,596 --> 00:24:26,476
Speaker 3: it every seven to ten years, So that kind of

541
00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:29,836
Speaker 3: like loyalty. And I also think that creates authentic company

542
00:24:29,876 --> 00:24:34,316
Speaker 3: culture because there's a financial advisory firm in Seattle called

543
00:24:34,356 --> 00:24:38,156
Speaker 3: Brighton Jones that has these sabbaticals every ten years, and

544
00:24:38,236 --> 00:24:40,276
Speaker 3: people come back and they're doing like a slideshow of

545
00:24:40,316 --> 00:24:43,876
Speaker 3: their sabbatical, and everyone's excited for those folks because they

546
00:24:43,876 --> 00:24:45,956
Speaker 3: know they get it as well, and so the company

547
00:24:46,196 --> 00:24:48,956
Speaker 3: values you as a whole human being and also like

548
00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:51,276
Speaker 3: they get to celebrate your experience because they know they

549
00:24:51,276 --> 00:24:53,236
Speaker 3: get to take it, which is different than someone being

550
00:24:53,236 --> 00:24:54,636
Speaker 3: like I had a great honeymoon.

551
00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:56,156
Speaker 4: You're like, oh, man, I didn't. You know.

552
00:24:57,756 --> 00:25:00,676
Speaker 1: You've also argued that it can help employees like increase

553
00:25:00,756 --> 00:25:03,596
Speaker 1: their innovation over time, and it's not necessarily that there's

554
00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:06,236
Speaker 1: skills building, although that happens in some cases with sabbaticals.

555
00:25:06,276 --> 00:25:09,596
Speaker 1: It's more just that like time off builds this innovation.

556
00:25:10,196 --> 00:25:13,076
Speaker 3: Yeah, So one of the interviewees was a CTO of

557
00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:15,996
Speaker 3: a tech company stepped away and was engaging this kind

558
00:25:16,036 --> 00:25:18,636
Speaker 3: of identity play I talked about, So, you know, was

559
00:25:18,676 --> 00:25:22,156
Speaker 3: a developer in college but had really not played around

560
00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:24,796
Speaker 3: with like mobile app development, and so it was like

561
00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:27,876
Speaker 3: futzing around and created this app to help text to

562
00:25:27,956 --> 00:25:31,276
Speaker 3: speech folks, right, and so that turned into being a

563
00:25:31,276 --> 00:25:34,196
Speaker 3: company that he started started from just wanting to learn

564
00:25:34,236 --> 00:25:38,476
Speaker 3: and play. I think this like play muscle, is really underutilized,

565
00:25:38,636 --> 00:25:40,516
Speaker 3: and I think it's really important to have folks like

566
00:25:40,556 --> 00:25:43,916
Speaker 3: step away and regenerate their ability to solve problems creatively

567
00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:46,436
Speaker 3: because you don't know what's coming around the corner as

568
00:25:46,476 --> 00:25:49,716
Speaker 3: technology kind of accelerates, so you have to be, you know,

569
00:25:49,756 --> 00:25:51,316
Speaker 3: able to see outside of the box.

570
00:25:51,516 --> 00:25:53,516
Speaker 1: And that's helpful for companies when people come back to

571
00:25:53,596 --> 00:25:54,316
Speaker 1: I assume totally.

572
00:25:54,396 --> 00:25:57,276
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you have to solve problems inside of companies, right.

573
00:25:57,516 --> 00:26:00,636
Speaker 1: And so it's started to seem obvious that sabbaticals are

574
00:26:00,636 --> 00:26:02,916
Speaker 1: a good idea for workers, or a good idea for companies,

575
00:26:02,996 --> 00:26:05,836
Speaker 1: probably a good idea for like society and us as people,

576
00:26:05,956 --> 00:26:12,876
Speaker 1: right right, right, But only five percent of non academic

577
00:26:12,876 --> 00:26:16,076
Speaker 1: companies are doing this. And so DJ, this is now

578
00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:19,196
Speaker 1: your life's mission, your dream to make sabbaticals more equitable.

579
00:26:19,436 --> 00:26:21,356
Speaker 1: But to do that, we have to overcome all the

580
00:26:21,356 --> 00:26:23,876
Speaker 1: barriers that we and our employers feel when it comes

581
00:26:23,916 --> 00:26:26,036
Speaker 1: to giving us a sabbatical and We're going to get

582
00:26:26,076 --> 00:26:29,276
Speaker 1: to those barriers when we come back from the break

583
00:26:29,476 --> 00:26:32,916
Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab Live from south By Southwest, We'll be

584
00:26:33,076 --> 00:26:42,196
Speaker 1: right back. Sabbaticals seem like a good idea, but let's

585
00:26:42,196 --> 00:26:44,356
Speaker 1: go through some of the worries that people have when

586
00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:47,436
Speaker 1: considering a sabbatical or just like the actual barriers that

587
00:26:47,476 --> 00:26:50,076
Speaker 1: come up when you like detonate your life for six months.

588
00:26:50,076 --> 00:26:54,476
Speaker 1: In some ways, one of these barriers is the optics, right.

589
00:26:54,516 --> 00:26:56,596
Speaker 1: I think people are really worried about what this is

590
00:26:56,636 --> 00:26:58,996
Speaker 1: going to look like. Is that something that you experienced

591
00:26:59,636 --> 00:26:59,996
Speaker 1: When I.

592
00:26:59,996 --> 00:27:02,436
Speaker 3: First thought about what the barriers were, you know, around

593
00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:05,436
Speaker 3: seven years ago, optics was one of the biggest ones, right,

594
00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:07,356
Speaker 3: So what are people going to think about the fact

595
00:27:07,396 --> 00:27:10,516
Speaker 3: you took time off? That has changed significantly since then.

596
00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:13,636
Speaker 3: I think one of the enabling features is that LinkedIn

597
00:27:13,716 --> 00:27:16,036
Speaker 3: introduced a career breaks role.

598
00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:17,796
Speaker 4: That you could put in, which is tremendous.

599
00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:20,436
Speaker 3: So like hundreds of thousands of people now like proudly

600
00:27:20,516 --> 00:27:23,276
Speaker 3: kind of talk about their career breaks. The other thing

601
00:27:23,356 --> 00:27:26,356
Speaker 3: is just like this story about a successful business and

602
00:27:26,396 --> 00:27:29,436
Speaker 3: a successful life is also changing, so people are starting

603
00:27:29,516 --> 00:27:32,636
Speaker 3: to hear. In addition to the CEOs running multiple companies

604
00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:34,996
Speaker 3: sleeping under the desk thing. They're starting to realize that

605
00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:38,236
Speaker 3: folks like Steve jobs right was studying calligraphy for a year,

606
00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:41,036
Speaker 3: and you have the CEO of Impossible Foods figured out

607
00:27:41,076 --> 00:27:43,516
Speaker 3: his company on sabbatical, Like, there's actually like a lot

608
00:27:43,556 --> 00:27:45,556
Speaker 3: of roles for you to kind of find that creative

609
00:27:45,636 --> 00:27:47,716
Speaker 3: energy when you step away. The other thing I think

610
00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:50,396
Speaker 3: about if you're interviewing for a job and you tell

611
00:27:50,436 --> 00:27:53,036
Speaker 3: them that you took a career break and they disqualify

612
00:27:53,036 --> 00:27:55,596
Speaker 3: you for the position, that's a great sign that maybe

613
00:27:55,636 --> 00:27:57,436
Speaker 3: you didn't want to work at that company. It's like

614
00:27:57,436 --> 00:28:02,996
Speaker 3: a kind of a revealed preference. And also I've also

615
00:28:03,036 --> 00:28:05,476
Speaker 3: found that in interviews, people want to talk about, oh,

616
00:28:05,676 --> 00:28:07,756
Speaker 3: like you traveled for six months, Like what did you do?

617
00:28:07,836 --> 00:28:10,156
Speaker 3: What was your favorite Like that makes an interesting person,

618
00:28:10,676 --> 00:28:12,396
Speaker 3: and it also shows that you had the courage and

619
00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:14,956
Speaker 3: self confidence like to take time off and do something

620
00:28:14,956 --> 00:28:17,316
Speaker 3: for yourself, which I think the majority of people are

621
00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:18,476
Speaker 3: going to be like, that's awesome.

622
00:28:18,716 --> 00:28:20,236
Speaker 4: I want this person on the team.

623
00:28:20,476 --> 00:28:22,236
Speaker 1: So it seems like the story is changing, but it

624
00:28:22,276 --> 00:28:25,036
Speaker 1: also seems like we need to change the story in

625
00:28:25,076 --> 00:28:26,796
Speaker 1: our own heads. Like part of the problem of optics

626
00:28:26,836 --> 00:28:28,876
Speaker 1: seems like it's what we think other people are going

627
00:28:28,956 --> 00:28:31,316
Speaker 1: to judge us about, but it also is a lot

628
00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:33,036
Speaker 1: about what we're judging ourselves about too.

629
00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:33,476
Speaker 4: Yeah.

630
00:28:33,476 --> 00:28:36,596
Speaker 3: I did a study of my Harvard Business School classmates

631
00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:39,716
Speaker 3: ten years out, and ninety percent of people were concerned

632
00:28:39,716 --> 00:28:42,156
Speaker 3: about how a career break would look, and less than

633
00:28:42,156 --> 00:28:44,676
Speaker 3: five percent of people actually cared whether or not someone

634
00:28:44,676 --> 00:28:47,476
Speaker 3: took a career break. So it's this weird dynamic where

635
00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:50,836
Speaker 3: you assume that people might take you less seriously, but

636
00:28:50,916 --> 00:28:52,916
Speaker 3: it's just not the case. And the way to kind

637
00:28:52,916 --> 00:28:55,836
Speaker 3: of solve that in our research, we identify this concept

638
00:28:55,996 --> 00:29:00,196
Speaker 3: called exemplars, which is fancy for examples, So like, find

639
00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:02,196
Speaker 3: an example in your life, someone that looks like you,

640
00:29:02,316 --> 00:29:04,596
Speaker 3: someone that has a similar job to you, who has

641
00:29:04,636 --> 00:29:07,636
Speaker 3: taken this time off, so you can actually see for yourself, like, oh,

642
00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:09,396
Speaker 3: I'll be fine on the other side, I.

643
00:29:09,316 --> 00:29:10,956
Speaker 1: Love that example because it seems like part of the

644
00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:13,356
Speaker 1: problem with sabbaticals is like, for many people, this is

645
00:29:13,436 --> 00:29:15,956
Speaker 1: just going to be the first time you're letting yourself

646
00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:19,236
Speaker 1: do something that's not like work for any like any

647
00:29:19,236 --> 00:29:20,396
Speaker 1: stretch of time whatsoever.

648
00:29:20,836 --> 00:29:23,556
Speaker 3: It's it's very uncomfortable it's not a natural feeling. It

649
00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:26,116
Speaker 3: kind of creates a vacuum, right, because you had all

650
00:29:26,116 --> 00:29:28,996
Speaker 3: these responsibilities and even though you want to not be

651
00:29:29,076 --> 00:29:31,076
Speaker 3: checking email, when all of a sudden you're cut off

652
00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:34,236
Speaker 3: from email and your calendar, Like, the first part of

653
00:29:34,276 --> 00:29:36,716
Speaker 3: sabbaticals can be difficult, And that's one part I think

654
00:29:36,796 --> 00:29:39,876
Speaker 3: folks don't get, like, you're on sabbatical must be amazing,

655
00:29:39,956 --> 00:29:42,556
Speaker 3: and you're actually like beating yourself up about leaving, not

656
00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:44,836
Speaker 3: knowing what you're going to do next, and so it

657
00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:49,036
Speaker 3: is like an identity transformation, and in order to transform yourself,

658
00:29:49,036 --> 00:29:51,076
Speaker 3: you've got to really do some you know, like some

659
00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:53,356
Speaker 3: thinking and some breaking apart of who you are.

660
00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:57,556
Speaker 1: Okay, So that's the optics, like internally and externally. Another

661
00:29:57,796 --> 00:30:02,876
Speaker 1: big one just practically is responsibility. Like we have professional responsibilities,

662
00:30:02,876 --> 00:30:07,396
Speaker 1: personal responsibilities where parents there's like logistical challenges, How did

663
00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:09,836
Speaker 1: you navigate this stuff? And what are some suggestions?

664
00:30:10,596 --> 00:30:13,796
Speaker 3: So I think that almost no one can throw all

665
00:30:13,836 --> 00:30:16,996
Speaker 3: of their responsibilities off tomorrow, right, And so if you

666
00:30:17,036 --> 00:30:19,996
Speaker 3: treat it like an emergency root canal, like that's difficult.

667
00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:23,036
Speaker 3: If you say, what is everyone here in this room doing?

668
00:30:23,116 --> 00:30:26,076
Speaker 3: In twenty thirty one, like, no one has any idea, right.

669
00:30:26,156 --> 00:30:27,956
Speaker 3: So if you say, like, in twenty thirty one, I'm

670
00:30:27,996 --> 00:30:30,876
Speaker 3: taking six months off, and you work towards that, man,

671
00:30:30,916 --> 00:30:31,996
Speaker 3: twenty thirty one's coming up.

672
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:34,516
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, twenty thirty one is not very far away.

673
00:30:34,556 --> 00:30:36,116
Speaker 1: But it's gonna be awesome for the folks in this room,

674
00:30:36,116 --> 00:30:38,996
Speaker 1: because everybody started nodding when you said that twenty thirty one. Right.

675
00:30:39,036 --> 00:30:40,796
Speaker 3: So if you can set some time in the future

676
00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:43,276
Speaker 3: and say like, I'm committing to take six months off,

677
00:30:43,716 --> 00:30:45,516
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden, you can save up for it,

678
00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:47,956
Speaker 3: you can signpost it with your employers, and it's not

679
00:30:47,996 --> 00:30:49,516
Speaker 3: a big deal. This is just part of who I am.

680
00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:52,196
Speaker 3: I take six months off six years from now. The

681
00:30:52,236 --> 00:30:54,836
Speaker 3: other thing is you hear a lot about responsibilities. I

682
00:30:54,836 --> 00:30:56,636
Speaker 3: have kids like they have, like how am I? And

683
00:30:56,636 --> 00:30:58,196
Speaker 3: I'm going to pull them out of school put them

684
00:30:58,196 --> 00:31:01,516
Speaker 3: back in school time and time again. It's it's difficult,

685
00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:05,236
Speaker 3: But the people who have children who take sabbatical have

686
00:31:05,276 --> 00:31:08,356
Speaker 3: the most inspiring stories, hands down, because they'll say stuff

687
00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:10,876
Speaker 3: like I just had begun to think about my kids

688
00:31:10,916 --> 00:31:13,636
Speaker 3: as a set of responsibilities and tasks like take them here,

689
00:31:13,716 --> 00:31:14,596
Speaker 3: pick them up from here.

690
00:31:15,036 --> 00:31:16,076
Speaker 4: When in actuality.

691
00:31:16,116 --> 00:31:20,476
Speaker 3: What's happening is people are showing their kids what is astronomy. Oh,

692
00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:23,956
Speaker 3: you're seeing the stars from Patagonia, seeing them and getting

693
00:31:23,996 --> 00:31:24,876
Speaker 3: excited about that.

694
00:31:25,036 --> 00:31:26,396
Speaker 4: Like what is zoology?

695
00:31:26,756 --> 00:31:28,796
Speaker 3: And you're going to the Serengeti and you're seeing like

696
00:31:28,876 --> 00:31:29,876
Speaker 3: animals up closed?

697
00:31:29,916 --> 00:31:32,276
Speaker 4: What is geology? You're in like the Grand Canyon.

698
00:31:32,676 --> 00:31:35,236
Speaker 3: And so it enables you to see the world through

699
00:31:35,236 --> 00:31:37,356
Speaker 3: their eyes and actually give them an experience that will

700
00:31:37,396 --> 00:31:39,516
Speaker 3: sit with them for their entire life. There's a movie

701
00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:41,556
Speaker 3: called Blink that we saw. I don't know if you've

702
00:31:41,556 --> 00:31:43,956
Speaker 3: seen it, but distributed by nat Geo, and it's this

703
00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:46,516
Speaker 3: family in Quebec where they have I think three or

704
00:31:46,516 --> 00:31:49,436
Speaker 3: four kids that have this kind of ocular degeneration disease,

705
00:31:49,476 --> 00:31:52,076
Speaker 3: and so they only have a certain amount of time

706
00:31:52,076 --> 00:31:53,396
Speaker 3: that their kids are going to be able to see

707
00:31:53,396 --> 00:31:56,476
Speaker 3: the world, and so they decided to take a year

708
00:31:56,516 --> 00:31:58,996
Speaker 3: off so the kids could like absorb as many images

709
00:31:59,076 --> 00:32:01,636
Speaker 3: about the world as possible. So I think about that

710
00:32:01,716 --> 00:32:05,036
Speaker 3: like taking it from a responsibility that you have to

711
00:32:05,036 --> 00:32:08,116
Speaker 3: take care of to a responsibility to allow your kids

712
00:32:08,236 --> 00:32:10,916
Speaker 3: or you and your spouse, us or yourself to get

713
00:32:10,916 --> 00:32:13,276
Speaker 3: to experience the world in a different way than our

714
00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:14,236
Speaker 3: just routine life.

715
00:32:14,476 --> 00:32:16,756
Speaker 1: I also think that it's probably really great for parents

716
00:32:16,796 --> 00:32:19,596
Speaker 1: to show kids and to model, like be that exemplar

717
00:32:19,676 --> 00:32:22,516
Speaker 1: for taking some time off and also just like not

718
00:32:22,596 --> 00:32:24,596
Speaker 1: be so burned out around their kids. Like I do

719
00:32:24,676 --> 00:32:26,956
Speaker 1: worry with some of like my adult friends with kids,

720
00:32:26,956 --> 00:32:28,796
Speaker 1: that those are kids that have only ever seen their

721
00:32:28,836 --> 00:32:31,116
Speaker 1: parents super stressed out, And I feel like it must

722
00:32:31,156 --> 00:32:34,036
Speaker 1: just be rejuvenating for kids to see parents taking time

723
00:32:34,076 --> 00:32:34,476
Speaker 1: off too.

724
00:32:34,916 --> 00:32:37,996
Speaker 3: Absolutely, you have to model this behavior right And I

725
00:32:37,996 --> 00:32:40,316
Speaker 3: actually have two good friends who are on sabbatical and

726
00:32:40,396 --> 00:32:43,116
Speaker 3: Kenya right now, and just seeing them kind of go

727
00:32:43,276 --> 00:32:46,716
Speaker 3: from having groceries delivered, meals delivered, like no time to

728
00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:49,756
Speaker 3: do anything, into like teaching their kids how to ride bikes.

729
00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:52,596
Speaker 3: You know, it's just it's really inspiring and life is

730
00:32:52,636 --> 00:32:55,156
Speaker 3: too short, right Again, a silver lining of the pandemic

731
00:32:55,236 --> 00:32:58,156
Speaker 3: for many people is that you realize that life is

732
00:32:58,196 --> 00:33:00,876
Speaker 3: fragile and it's short, and you just can't bet on

733
00:33:01,076 --> 00:33:03,476
Speaker 3: twenty thirty one even who knows, So maybe she'd set

734
00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:05,396
Speaker 3: it to twenty twenty nine when you take your sabbatical.

735
00:33:06,636 --> 00:33:08,716
Speaker 1: Yeah, we gotta get it in as soon as possible,

736
00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:12,436
Speaker 1: so we've talked about optics, We've talked about responsibility. I

737
00:33:12,476 --> 00:33:13,996
Speaker 1: think the elephant in the room when it comes to

738
00:33:14,036 --> 00:33:18,476
Speaker 1: sabbaticals is cost right, just financially, I think if you

739
00:33:18,556 --> 00:33:20,596
Speaker 1: survey most people, my guess is most people are going

740
00:33:20,636 --> 00:33:22,956
Speaker 1: to say that sounds awesome, but it's just completely out

741
00:33:22,956 --> 00:33:24,636
Speaker 1: of reach. How do we solve for this?

742
00:33:25,436 --> 00:33:28,436
Speaker 3: So, I mean, the first and obvious answer is that

743
00:33:28,476 --> 00:33:31,956
Speaker 3: if this is supported by companies countries like our culture,

744
00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:34,436
Speaker 3: then it's not a problem at all. And if you

745
00:33:34,476 --> 00:33:37,716
Speaker 3: can plan in advance, right, So a couple people from

746
00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:41,556
Speaker 3: the study were teachers. They had taken a sabbatical right

747
00:33:41,556 --> 00:33:44,316
Speaker 3: before they got married and backpacked around around the world.

748
00:33:44,596 --> 00:33:46,036
Speaker 3: So it's like, we want to do this when our

749
00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:48,196
Speaker 3: kids are a certain age. So they saved up for

750
00:33:48,236 --> 00:33:50,396
Speaker 3: ten years because it was important to them, and they

751
00:33:50,396 --> 00:33:52,836
Speaker 3: did it and it turned out actually they drove a

752
00:33:52,916 --> 00:33:56,436
Speaker 3: land rover across to the tip of South America from Arizona,

753
00:33:56,916 --> 00:33:59,476
Speaker 3: and it turned out that there was so much maintenance

754
00:33:59,516 --> 00:34:01,796
Speaker 3: with the land rover that the guy got really good

755
00:34:01,796 --> 00:34:03,116
Speaker 3: at it, and he came back and he was like,

756
00:34:03,156 --> 00:34:05,596
Speaker 3: I actually want to start a land rover business. So

757
00:34:05,956 --> 00:34:09,076
Speaker 3: now he like refurbishes land rovers and takes people on tours.

758
00:34:09,316 --> 00:34:11,436
Speaker 3: But yeah, so if you're thinking about it as something

759
00:34:11,476 --> 00:34:14,556
Speaker 3: that has to happen tomorrow, very few people can afford it.

760
00:34:14,796 --> 00:34:17,116
Speaker 3: If you're planning it out and saying this is important

761
00:34:17,116 --> 00:34:18,836
Speaker 3: to me, I'm going to save five percent a year,

762
00:34:19,276 --> 00:34:21,636
Speaker 3: then it's not that big of a deal. The other

763
00:34:21,676 --> 00:34:24,116
Speaker 3: thing I would say is that I've heard this over

764
00:34:24,156 --> 00:34:26,916
Speaker 3: and over again, where when you're at a company, your

765
00:34:26,996 --> 00:34:29,076
Speaker 3: raises are kind of on a schedule. It's like you

766
00:34:29,116 --> 00:34:31,316
Speaker 3: get a five percent raise or here's what you're eligible for.

767
00:34:31,756 --> 00:34:34,196
Speaker 3: When you switch jobs, you actually get paid a lot

768
00:34:34,236 --> 00:34:36,836
Speaker 3: more because you're being valued at the market rate for

769
00:34:36,916 --> 00:34:39,716
Speaker 3: your skills. And so lots of folks are saying, I

770
00:34:39,796 --> 00:34:41,876
Speaker 3: quit my job, they wouldn't give me a sabbatical. I

771
00:34:41,956 --> 00:34:44,036
Speaker 3: joined another company and I got a raise, so that

772
00:34:44,196 --> 00:34:48,196
Speaker 3: essentially made the sabbatical free. So your mileage may vary,

773
00:34:48,316 --> 00:34:50,316
Speaker 3: but that's a dynamic that we kind of get trapped

774
00:34:50,316 --> 00:34:52,436
Speaker 3: in as we've been at a company for a long time.

775
00:34:52,756 --> 00:34:55,796
Speaker 1: You've also noted that it's also just worth asking because

776
00:34:55,836 --> 00:34:57,956
Speaker 1: lots of companies have policies that are like this that

777
00:34:58,036 --> 00:34:59,916
Speaker 1: might be hidden or not talked about too.

778
00:35:00,036 --> 00:35:01,796
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's these secret policies.

779
00:35:01,876 --> 00:35:03,316
Speaker 3: I think that if you want to do it and

780
00:35:03,356 --> 00:35:04,996
Speaker 3: you're kind of set on it, and you're like, listen,

781
00:35:05,076 --> 00:35:07,396
Speaker 3: I'm either leaving or they're giving me a sabbatical, Like

782
00:35:07,436 --> 00:35:09,476
Speaker 3: at that point, you're going to leave. And so you

783
00:35:09,516 --> 00:35:12,436
Speaker 3: can talk frankly with your manager about this. And I've

784
00:35:12,436 --> 00:35:14,956
Speaker 3: seen this many times where someone says, all right, let's

785
00:35:14,996 --> 00:35:17,196
Speaker 3: work this thing out. Can we wait a year so

786
00:35:17,236 --> 00:35:19,956
Speaker 3: we can prep the team. Okay, cool, how about like

787
00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:21,676
Speaker 3: we're not going to give you full pay, but how

788
00:35:21,676 --> 00:35:22,676
Speaker 3: about partial pay.

789
00:35:22,556 --> 00:35:24,036
Speaker 4: Or how about just retaining benefits?

790
00:35:24,396 --> 00:35:26,076
Speaker 3: And what we find is that most people, if you

791
00:35:26,196 --> 00:35:29,716
Speaker 3: just retain benefits, because that's the scary thing, they can

792
00:35:29,756 --> 00:35:32,316
Speaker 3: save up for it. And so again like how far

793
00:35:32,356 --> 00:35:34,636
Speaker 3: in advance are you planning on doing it? But I

794
00:35:34,636 --> 00:35:37,116
Speaker 3: would talk to people who aren't your manager first and

795
00:35:37,116 --> 00:35:39,316
Speaker 3: try to find an exemplar, and then you can kind

796
00:35:39,316 --> 00:35:41,516
Speaker 3: of broach that subject. And one of the reasons why

797
00:35:41,636 --> 00:35:43,876
Speaker 3: we have like a like a kind of a support

798
00:35:43,876 --> 00:35:45,956
Speaker 3: group on Facebook and LinkedIn where you can ask other

799
00:35:45,956 --> 00:35:48,196
Speaker 3: people what their best practices.

800
00:35:47,756 --> 00:35:48,876
Speaker 4: Were in doing it.

801
00:35:48,956 --> 00:35:51,036
Speaker 3: You can find people who maybe worked in your industry

802
00:35:51,116 --> 00:35:52,476
Speaker 3: or in your company who have taken it.

803
00:35:52,516 --> 00:35:53,236
Speaker 4: So that's helpful.

804
00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:55,556
Speaker 1: Okay, So this is how kind of personally we can

805
00:35:55,636 --> 00:35:58,116
Speaker 1: sort of fight some of the barriers. Let's talk about

806
00:35:58,156 --> 00:36:01,116
Speaker 1: maybe some of the structural barriers. Hopefully there are folks

807
00:36:01,156 --> 00:36:03,876
Speaker 1: in the room who are themselves employers, maybe big CEOs

808
00:36:03,916 --> 00:36:06,116
Speaker 1: of companies, who are hearing about these benefits and want

809
00:36:06,156 --> 00:36:08,556
Speaker 1: to start offering sabbatical policies and want to develop a

810
00:36:08,596 --> 00:36:11,796
Speaker 1: company that can help folks do this. What do employers

811
00:36:11,836 --> 00:36:13,436
Speaker 1: actually need to make sabbaticals a thing?

812
00:36:13,996 --> 00:36:16,716
Speaker 3: So in order to make it equitable for folks, it's

813
00:36:16,756 --> 00:36:19,876
Speaker 3: got to have to be paid, right, so allow people

814
00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:21,316
Speaker 3: to be able to take it and not take a

815
00:36:21,396 --> 00:36:24,916
Speaker 3: huge financial hit. I think in order to make it successful, Like,

816
00:36:24,996 --> 00:36:26,796
Speaker 3: the worst thing that can happen is you roll out

817
00:36:26,836 --> 00:36:30,356
Speaker 3: a sabbatical policy and it's too short or you don't

818
00:36:30,436 --> 00:36:33,316
Speaker 3: allow your employees to disconnect, and then you've had people

819
00:36:33,316 --> 00:36:35,196
Speaker 3: who are gone from the workplace and then also haven't

820
00:36:35,196 --> 00:36:35,956
Speaker 3: gotten the benefits.

821
00:36:36,636 --> 00:36:39,516
Speaker 4: And so give folks enough time ideally months.

822
00:36:39,916 --> 00:36:41,396
Speaker 3: You know, what we found in the research is that

823
00:36:41,436 --> 00:36:43,196
Speaker 3: it takes about six to eight weeks for you to

824
00:36:43,276 --> 00:36:46,556
Speaker 3: really become yourself again. Think about that. You take a

825
00:36:46,556 --> 00:36:49,796
Speaker 3: two week vacation up to two months to really feel like,

826
00:36:49,836 --> 00:36:52,516
Speaker 3: oh I'm me, I'm not just this collection of jobs

827
00:36:52,516 --> 00:36:56,996
Speaker 3: and responsibilities. So give them enough time and ensure disconnection.

828
00:36:57,516 --> 00:37:01,436
Speaker 3: So best practice disable the email auto respond. You'd be

829
00:37:01,476 --> 00:37:03,796
Speaker 3: surprised if you have an auto response that says, I'm

830
00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:06,556
Speaker 3: coming back to the office in September. I'm deleting this

831
00:37:06,716 --> 00:37:09,676
Speaker 3: entire inbox like emailing it in September. Folks will just

832
00:37:09,716 --> 00:37:12,116
Speaker 3: email you in September. It's not the end of the world.

833
00:37:12,596 --> 00:37:15,036
Speaker 3: So disconnection, I think duration and support.

834
00:37:15,156 --> 00:37:16,996
Speaker 1: You've also talked about some ways that companies can make

835
00:37:17,036 --> 00:37:18,996
Speaker 1: this the norm or make this scene as like not

836
00:37:19,116 --> 00:37:20,556
Speaker 1: a bad thing to do. What are some ways that

837
00:37:20,556 --> 00:37:21,316
Speaker 1: companies can do that.

838
00:37:21,636 --> 00:37:24,396
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the norm that exists is this so called

839
00:37:24,436 --> 00:37:27,996
Speaker 3: work devotion norm where people are kind of like feel

840
00:37:28,036 --> 00:37:29,676
Speaker 3: like they have to be devoted to work. They can't

841
00:37:29,676 --> 00:37:32,356
Speaker 3: be seen as taking time off. This is why things

842
00:37:32,436 --> 00:37:35,556
Speaker 3: like unlimited vacation, which is just a total boondoggle, like

843
00:37:35,636 --> 00:37:38,316
Speaker 3: doesn't work because you don't see people taking time off,

844
00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:40,076
Speaker 3: and so then you don't feel like you can take it.

845
00:37:40,516 --> 00:37:42,316
Speaker 3: So I think the first thing that leaders can do

846
00:37:42,436 --> 00:37:45,036
Speaker 3: is take the breaks themselves to kind of model this.

847
00:37:45,156 --> 00:37:47,836
Speaker 3: So Sweden also has man Sweden's getting a lot of

848
00:37:47,836 --> 00:37:51,076
Speaker 3: Love this episode. Sweden also has like kind of world

849
00:37:51,156 --> 00:37:53,956
Speaker 3: leading paternity leave. And what they found is that like

850
00:37:53,996 --> 00:37:56,836
Speaker 3: even though you get paid paternity leave, fathers wouldn't take

851
00:37:56,876 --> 00:37:58,916
Speaker 3: it unless their bosses took it. You've got to model

852
00:37:58,956 --> 00:38:01,596
Speaker 3: that behavior, You've got to celebrate it inside the company

853
00:38:01,636 --> 00:38:02,676
Speaker 3: in order for folks to take it.

854
00:38:03,116 --> 00:38:05,796
Speaker 1: What are some examples of positive impacts on organizations for

855
00:38:05,916 --> 00:38:08,116
Speaker 1: their leaders, Like is it just the people that taught

856
00:38:08,156 --> 00:38:09,876
Speaker 1: the benefit from this or do you also see like

857
00:38:09,916 --> 00:38:12,156
Speaker 1: frontline workers taking these things and benefiting.

858
00:38:12,556 --> 00:38:14,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a lot more rare to have folks

859
00:38:15,076 --> 00:38:17,716
Speaker 3: across the spectrum of the organization just because of the

860
00:38:17,716 --> 00:38:20,716
Speaker 3: financial responsibilities and things like that. So I talked to

861
00:38:20,756 --> 00:38:23,836
Speaker 3: this startup called Skylight. At the beginning stages of a startup,

862
00:38:23,876 --> 00:38:26,116
Speaker 3: if you ever worked for one or started one, no

863
00:38:26,156 --> 00:38:28,676
Speaker 3: one's taking a sabbatical at the beginning, But if you

864
00:38:28,676 --> 00:38:30,556
Speaker 3: can get through the first like four or five years,

865
00:38:30,876 --> 00:38:33,756
Speaker 3: then you can make some space. And so the CEO, Michael,

866
00:38:33,796 --> 00:38:36,716
Speaker 3: their first employee, was just really burnt out and so

867
00:38:37,196 --> 00:38:39,956
Speaker 3: allowed her to take two months off, come back, and

868
00:38:39,996 --> 00:38:42,476
Speaker 3: then during that time. It's a little bit cheating on

869
00:38:42,476 --> 00:38:45,116
Speaker 3: the sabbatical, but she had investigated a bunch of AI

870
00:38:45,236 --> 00:38:48,356
Speaker 3: tools and got trained up, and so she was able

871
00:38:48,396 --> 00:38:51,036
Speaker 3: to bring that back, which was integrated into the product

872
00:38:51,076 --> 00:38:53,836
Speaker 3: and actually made it quite successful and kind of changed

873
00:38:54,116 --> 00:38:56,676
Speaker 3: the trajectory of it. The other example that I like

874
00:38:56,716 --> 00:38:59,676
Speaker 3: to tell is there's a CEO, Cheryl Johnson, of this

875
00:38:59,756 --> 00:39:03,276
Speaker 3: organization in Detroit, so like the Coalition to End Homelessness,

876
00:39:03,956 --> 00:39:08,196
Speaker 3: and there's funders that fund nonprofits in places like Detroit,

877
00:39:08,316 --> 00:39:11,476
Speaker 3: La San Francis, go to Boston. They convince the boards

878
00:39:11,476 --> 00:39:13,996
Speaker 3: of nonprofits to allow their leaders and their employees to

879
00:39:14,036 --> 00:39:16,956
Speaker 3: take time off and they fund it, right, And so

880
00:39:16,996 --> 00:39:19,796
Speaker 3: the point of that again to prevent this key person

881
00:39:19,916 --> 00:39:23,076
Speaker 3: risk at a nonprofit where the leader is super important, charismatic,

882
00:39:23,636 --> 00:39:25,956
Speaker 3: and so they're like convincing these boards to let these

883
00:39:25,956 --> 00:39:30,716
Speaker 3: nonprofit employees leave because like burnout started in the care sector, right,

884
00:39:30,836 --> 00:39:34,076
Speaker 3: I'm on, like nurses, healthcare workers, nonprofit leaders, if you

885
00:39:34,156 --> 00:39:37,196
Speaker 3: really care about your job, you don't want to leave

886
00:39:37,236 --> 00:39:39,156
Speaker 3: it because you feel like you're letting people down. And

887
00:39:39,236 --> 00:39:41,396
Speaker 3: so I think in the nonprofit industry, actually.

888
00:39:41,116 --> 00:39:42,076
Speaker 4: You see that a lot as well.

889
00:39:42,436 --> 00:39:45,036
Speaker 1: You've also seen some of these creative solutions that some

890
00:39:45,356 --> 00:39:47,236
Speaker 1: like jobs have come up with. You talked about this

891
00:39:47,276 --> 00:39:49,436
Speaker 1: idea of a prebatical, which I think is actually a

892
00:39:49,476 --> 00:39:50,596
Speaker 1: kind of clever one. What's that?

893
00:39:50,716 --> 00:39:53,516
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this came from the Great resignation.

894
00:39:53,596 --> 00:39:55,116
Speaker 4: Everyone is like, I quit my job.

895
00:39:55,196 --> 00:39:58,276
Speaker 3: It's amazing, and then a lot of people got really

896
00:39:58,636 --> 00:40:01,236
Speaker 3: you know, nice offers at other companies and other jobs,

897
00:40:01,276 --> 00:40:02,916
Speaker 3: and so like, actually, I'm just going to start this

898
00:40:02,996 --> 00:40:03,556
Speaker 3: other job.

899
00:40:03,956 --> 00:40:05,316
Speaker 4: And I think it's kind of foolish.

900
00:40:05,356 --> 00:40:07,756
Speaker 3: I think that you're burnout from a job is going

901
00:40:07,796 --> 00:40:09,836
Speaker 3: to like end just because you joined another job.

902
00:40:09,876 --> 00:40:11,516
Speaker 1: Yes, you take your box and by the time you

903
00:40:11,556 --> 00:40:13,196
Speaker 1: get to the car, the burnout's over it.

904
00:40:13,236 --> 00:40:15,556
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, you're running on adrenaline, right, So you're bringing

905
00:40:15,596 --> 00:40:18,716
Speaker 3: like the adrenaline over. But I think companies actually benefit

906
00:40:18,756 --> 00:40:20,796
Speaker 3: from ensuring that people take time off.

907
00:40:21,236 --> 00:40:22,956
Speaker 4: And the easiest.

908
00:40:22,436 --> 00:40:25,476
Speaker 3: Sabbatical to take is if, like, you have a job,

909
00:40:25,556 --> 00:40:27,156
Speaker 3: so I teach at a business school, and like, you

910
00:40:27,156 --> 00:40:28,756
Speaker 3: get a job at a consulting firm, and you can

911
00:40:28,796 --> 00:40:31,036
Speaker 3: push your offer so you know that you have a

912
00:40:31,116 --> 00:40:32,676
Speaker 3: job coming out of it. I mean, you don't have

913
00:40:32,716 --> 00:40:35,556
Speaker 3: to worry about money. And so I think like allowing

914
00:40:35,596 --> 00:40:38,076
Speaker 3: folks to make sure they come into your organization not

915
00:40:38,156 --> 00:40:41,196
Speaker 3: burned out, excited to hit the ground running is a

916
00:40:41,196 --> 00:40:42,476
Speaker 3: great one, all right.

917
00:40:42,516 --> 00:40:45,156
Speaker 1: So let's say somebody's listening right now and they're convinced

918
00:40:45,236 --> 00:40:47,916
Speaker 1: it's time. They're ready to overcome all these barriers. The

919
00:40:47,956 --> 00:40:50,316
Speaker 1: extended break is what they want to do. What are

920
00:40:50,356 --> 00:40:53,596
Speaker 1: some practices for the sabbatical curious who are ready to

921
00:40:53,676 --> 00:40:55,196
Speaker 1: hit go on actually taking a break.

922
00:40:56,316 --> 00:40:57,716
Speaker 3: So I think the first thing is you got to

923
00:40:57,716 --> 00:40:59,956
Speaker 3: ask around, so try to find an exemplar. I think

924
00:41:00,036 --> 00:41:03,196
Speaker 3: setting the container for a sabbatical is super important. So

925
00:41:04,156 --> 00:41:05,956
Speaker 3: I don't really want to give people guidance on their

926
00:41:05,996 --> 00:41:09,076
Speaker 3: particular sabbatical, but you got to like set enough time.

927
00:41:09,436 --> 00:41:12,476
Speaker 3: You have to ensure that you are disconnected enough. And

928
00:41:12,516 --> 00:41:14,916
Speaker 3: partially that means traveling if you can, so getting out

929
00:41:14,956 --> 00:41:18,476
Speaker 3: of your geographic space, And partially that just means getting

930
00:41:18,476 --> 00:41:21,556
Speaker 3: out of your routines, because that's a vacuum at the

931
00:41:21,596 --> 00:41:24,836
Speaker 3: beginning of your sabbatical, when you subtract all of your responsibilities.

932
00:41:25,316 --> 00:41:27,916
Speaker 3: It can help to have some structured things, especially at

933
00:41:27,916 --> 00:41:30,236
Speaker 3: the beginning of your sabbatical, Like you want to do

934
00:41:30,276 --> 00:41:32,876
Speaker 3: something gets you out of your head and into your body. Yoga,

935
00:41:32,916 --> 00:41:36,756
Speaker 3: teacher training, pottery like stuff where you're using your hands.

936
00:41:36,396 --> 00:41:38,116
Speaker 1: Hiking, building cabinets, weird.

937
00:41:38,156 --> 00:41:40,596
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Do not suggest going to ikea.

938
00:41:40,716 --> 00:41:43,116
Speaker 3: It's not stressful getting out of your head and into

939
00:41:43,116 --> 00:41:46,076
Speaker 3: your body and thinking about the phases of a sabbatical

940
00:41:46,196 --> 00:41:50,596
Speaker 3: as healing at the beginning and then experimentation in the middle,

941
00:41:50,996 --> 00:41:54,556
Speaker 3: and then integration at the end. So really like finding

942
00:41:54,596 --> 00:41:57,316
Speaker 3: these what they call like counterfactual experiments, like what would

943
00:41:57,356 --> 00:41:59,436
Speaker 3: my life be like if I did this versus what

944
00:41:59,476 --> 00:42:02,116
Speaker 3: I'm doing now. One of my favorite stories was a

945
00:42:02,156 --> 00:42:05,196
Speaker 3: consultant who would take a sabbatical every four years, and

946
00:42:05,236 --> 00:42:06,916
Speaker 3: he was like, when I retire, I want to run

947
00:42:06,956 --> 00:42:10,356
Speaker 3: an eco lodge, And so we spend a sabata volunteering

948
00:42:10,476 --> 00:42:12,436
Speaker 3: like working in the kitchen, working in the back office

949
00:42:12,476 --> 00:42:15,036
Speaker 3: of eco lodges. And was like, this is actually not

950
00:42:15,116 --> 00:42:18,196
Speaker 3: for me, right, And so like running these experiments so

951
00:42:18,236 --> 00:42:20,516
Speaker 3: that you don't have regrets later in life.

952
00:42:20,636 --> 00:42:23,116
Speaker 1: You've also talked about the importance of using your sabbatical

953
00:42:23,156 --> 00:42:26,116
Speaker 1: to focus on relationships. I know why this is so

954
00:42:26,156 --> 00:42:28,436
Speaker 1: important from the happy to science that science just shows

955
00:42:28,436 --> 00:42:31,156
Speaker 1: that social connection is so critical for happiness. But why

956
00:42:31,236 --> 00:42:35,236
Speaker 1: can this be so important and transformative in a sabbatical Specifically.

957
00:42:34,836 --> 00:42:37,716
Speaker 3: A, I think you can go too far inwards. And

958
00:42:37,796 --> 00:42:40,836
Speaker 3: so I think about sabbaticals as having three archetypes. There's

959
00:42:40,876 --> 00:42:43,436
Speaker 3: like the achievers that really want to get something done,

960
00:42:43,596 --> 00:42:46,916
Speaker 3: kind of type A. Folks be the explorers, so people

961
00:42:46,916 --> 00:42:50,116
Speaker 3: that just want to like see the world and explore outwards.

962
00:42:50,156 --> 00:42:52,076
Speaker 4: And also like more seekers.

963
00:42:51,676 --> 00:42:53,756
Speaker 3: That want to find out like I wanted to do

964
00:42:53,796 --> 00:42:56,716
Speaker 3: that spiritual journey so like, and then there's like folks

965
00:42:56,756 --> 00:42:59,356
Speaker 3: that need kind of healing and so you know, one

966
00:42:59,396 --> 00:43:01,396
Speaker 3: of the tough things is that you spend so much

967
00:43:01,396 --> 00:43:03,796
Speaker 3: time thinking about yourself and what you want because like

968
00:43:03,876 --> 00:43:05,596
Speaker 3: you're parched, you want to like go out and do

969
00:43:05,676 --> 00:43:08,116
Speaker 3: all the things that you end up just focusing sol

970
00:43:08,236 --> 00:43:11,676
Speaker 3: on yourself for happiness, Like focusing on relationships is important.

971
00:43:11,956 --> 00:43:13,396
Speaker 3: It gets you out of your head. And then too

972
00:43:13,436 --> 00:43:14,996
Speaker 3: more like what do we actually care about? Like what

973
00:43:15,036 --> 00:43:17,076
Speaker 3: are we doing here? And then second, I think as

974
00:43:17,116 --> 00:43:19,836
Speaker 3: you get older, right, like everyone has their own schedules.

975
00:43:19,916 --> 00:43:22,796
Speaker 3: You're trying to like align stuff, and so this allows

976
00:43:22,796 --> 00:43:25,756
Speaker 3: you to take the scheduling hassles of one side of

977
00:43:25,756 --> 00:43:28,236
Speaker 3: that equation and take it away so you can actually

978
00:43:28,316 --> 00:43:32,076
Speaker 3: plug into someone else's life in their convenience, so it

979
00:43:32,076 --> 00:43:34,996
Speaker 3: can kind of like spur and catalyze and refresh these

980
00:43:35,076 --> 00:43:37,156
Speaker 3: relationships that might have run a little dry.

981
00:43:37,516 --> 00:43:40,596
Speaker 1: That's so interesting is some of the happiness LAB fans know.

982
00:43:40,716 --> 00:43:43,316
Speaker 1: I quite famously took this my own zabbatical when I

983
00:43:43,396 --> 00:43:45,436
Speaker 1: was feeling really burned out, and I think one of

984
00:43:45,476 --> 00:43:49,116
Speaker 1: the unexpected benefits was this sort of relationship building, mostly

985
00:43:49,156 --> 00:43:51,396
Speaker 1: because of that schedule issue that you just mentioned, right,

986
00:43:51,436 --> 00:43:53,596
Speaker 1: I wanted to see your friend or catch up and

987
00:43:53,636 --> 00:43:54,996
Speaker 1: they were like, when can you meet? I was like

988
00:43:55,076 --> 00:43:57,956
Speaker 1: on any time, Like I got nothing going on, right,

989
00:43:57,996 --> 00:44:00,556
Speaker 1: you know? And that was just transformative, right, because it

990
00:44:00,596 --> 00:44:03,436
Speaker 1: meant that those meetings and those relationships actually got built,

991
00:44:03,476 --> 00:44:05,236
Speaker 1: and that those connections actually happened.

992
00:44:05,476 --> 00:44:08,276
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's all these things that we say are importance,

993
00:44:08,316 --> 00:44:10,356
Speaker 3: we know are important, but we don't make time for.

994
00:44:10,716 --> 00:44:14,636
Speaker 3: I talked briefly about this urgent versus important kind of dynamic.

995
00:44:15,516 --> 00:44:16,476
Speaker 4: So it'd urge you to think.

996
00:44:16,316 --> 00:44:18,956
Speaker 3: About, like, what are important relationships that you haven't given

997
00:44:18,996 --> 00:44:21,356
Speaker 3: a lot of love to, Like, what are important things

998
00:44:21,356 --> 00:44:23,276
Speaker 3: that you want to do in your life? And take

999
00:44:23,316 --> 00:44:25,796
Speaker 3: stock like how old am I? Like, how many years

1000
00:44:25,836 --> 00:44:28,076
Speaker 3: have I been working? How many times have I taken

1001
00:44:28,156 --> 00:44:30,436
Speaker 3: the chance to do some of those things? And I'm

1002
00:44:30,476 --> 00:44:33,356
Speaker 3: guessing the answers like pretty pretty rarely, and so figure

1003
00:44:33,356 --> 00:44:35,236
Speaker 3: out like, okay, like you have to make the time

1004
00:44:35,276 --> 00:44:37,556
Speaker 3: to do it. So relationships are one of those, And.

1005
00:44:37,516 --> 00:44:39,396
Speaker 1: So any advice for how to pick what to do,

1006
00:44:39,556 --> 00:44:41,916
Speaker 1: because I think especially if you're entering the sabbatical for

1007
00:44:41,956 --> 00:44:44,356
Speaker 1: that period of healing, if you're feeling really burned out

1008
00:44:44,676 --> 00:44:47,476
Speaker 1: and you're thinking like, now's my time to find my passion,

1009
00:44:47,996 --> 00:44:49,956
Speaker 1: that can kind of feel a little bit exhausting. But

1010
00:44:50,156 --> 00:44:52,156
Speaker 1: you've talked about we shouldn't be going for passion, we

1011
00:44:52,156 --> 00:44:55,116
Speaker 1: should focus on tiny curiosities. How does that work?

1012
00:44:55,276 --> 00:44:56,596
Speaker 4: Yeah, so full disclosure.

1013
00:44:56,596 --> 00:44:58,836
Speaker 3: I took this from Elizabeth Gilbert, Like she talked about

1014
00:44:58,876 --> 00:45:01,156
Speaker 3: like chasing your passions is stressful.

1015
00:45:01,196 --> 00:45:02,436
Speaker 4: What if you don't know what your passion is?

1016
00:45:02,516 --> 00:45:04,836
Speaker 3: What if your passion doesn't fulfill you and instead just

1017
00:45:04,836 --> 00:45:08,236
Speaker 3: thinking about what you're curious about. And so if you're

1018
00:45:08,236 --> 00:45:10,716
Speaker 3: like I've always wanted to and to be a master potter,

1019
00:45:10,876 --> 00:45:12,716
Speaker 3: and then you like spend your entire time trying to

1020
00:45:12,716 --> 00:45:15,196
Speaker 3: find someone to like apprentice with that can be devastating

1021
00:45:15,196 --> 00:45:17,916
Speaker 3: when it turns out you're not good at pottery, as

1022
00:45:17,916 --> 00:45:19,636
Speaker 3: opposed to saying like i've you know, what is it

1023
00:45:19,716 --> 00:45:22,156
Speaker 3: like to travel on this part? Or for me, like

1024
00:45:22,196 --> 00:45:23,796
Speaker 3: what would it be like to hand cabinets even though

1025
00:45:23,836 --> 00:45:24,876
Speaker 3: I have no idea what I'm doing?

1026
00:45:24,916 --> 00:45:26,516
Speaker 4: And it was okay.

1027
00:45:27,316 --> 00:45:28,756
Speaker 1: It seems like it's kind of getting back to that

1028
00:45:28,836 --> 00:45:30,996
Speaker 1: play mindset, like you do. You don't have to do

1029
00:45:31,036 --> 00:45:34,196
Speaker 1: your sabbatical perfectly to kind of get some huge benefit

1030
00:45:34,236 --> 00:45:34,596
Speaker 1: out of it.

1031
00:45:34,756 --> 00:45:37,276
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think, actually this is going to sound tripe,

1032
00:45:37,276 --> 00:45:39,436
Speaker 3: but the mistakes are part of the thing, right. So

1033
00:45:40,276 --> 00:45:42,916
Speaker 3: there was a person from our study who was like,

1034
00:45:42,956 --> 00:45:44,756
Speaker 3: I really want to learn back country skiing, and so

1035
00:45:44,796 --> 00:45:46,996
Speaker 3: they moved to British Columbia for a couple of months,

1036
00:45:47,236 --> 00:45:50,516
Speaker 3: I got these lessons, got certified, and then they eventually

1037
00:45:50,516 --> 00:45:53,316
Speaker 3: found themselves tracking like how many vertical.

1038
00:45:53,036 --> 00:45:54,516
Speaker 4: Feet have I skied each day?

1039
00:45:54,556 --> 00:45:57,516
Speaker 3: And they had like a spreadsheet and then they realized like, oh,

1040
00:45:57,676 --> 00:46:00,676
Speaker 3: like I'm the problem here, like like the way I

1041
00:46:00,756 --> 00:46:03,156
Speaker 3: attack things is the problem, not like the job. And

1042
00:46:03,196 --> 00:46:05,516
Speaker 3: so even if you sub out of that job, do

1043
00:46:05,556 --> 00:46:07,516
Speaker 3: you want to work on yourself or do you want

1044
00:46:07,516 --> 00:46:09,916
Speaker 3: to just take who you are and say like, Okay,

1045
00:46:09,996 --> 00:46:12,476
Speaker 3: I want to actually attack some other problem I'm passionate

1046
00:46:12,516 --> 00:46:14,556
Speaker 3: about with the same energy and vigor.

1047
00:46:15,276 --> 00:46:18,436
Speaker 1: And so as folks are thinking about sabbatical right now

1048
00:46:18,596 --> 00:46:20,076
Speaker 1: in the middle of twenty twenty five, when we're having

1049
00:46:20,116 --> 00:46:23,116
Speaker 1: this conversation, I think there's also an interesting question about

1050
00:46:23,316 --> 00:46:25,316
Speaker 1: not just how do we take sabbatical, but should we

1051
00:46:25,396 --> 00:46:27,596
Speaker 1: be taking sabbatical when the world feels like it's like

1052
00:46:27,716 --> 00:46:30,636
Speaker 1: literally on fire. You know what's the advice for that?

1053
00:46:31,756 --> 00:46:35,036
Speaker 3: I think this goes back to the burnout and caretaker piece, right,

1054
00:46:35,116 --> 00:46:38,596
Speaker 3: so like put your oxygen mask on before your kids,

1055
00:46:39,156 --> 00:46:42,556
Speaker 3: Like you need perspective as to like what's actually going on,

1056
00:46:42,676 --> 00:46:45,556
Speaker 3: what's important for you, and to get the resources to

1057
00:46:45,636 --> 00:46:47,916
Speaker 3: kind of like take a different tack, right, And so

1058
00:46:47,956 --> 00:46:49,916
Speaker 3: I think it's an opportunity to step back, And I

1059
00:46:49,916 --> 00:46:52,476
Speaker 3: think it's a great opportunity in a time of like

1060
00:46:52,516 --> 00:46:54,836
Speaker 3: where you're feeling not so great to say, like, who

1061
00:46:54,836 --> 00:46:56,356
Speaker 3: do I want to be in this next phase of

1062
00:46:56,356 --> 00:46:59,476
Speaker 3: my life and what skills or like direction do I

1063
00:46:59,476 --> 00:47:00,636
Speaker 3: need to take in or ready to get there?

1064
00:47:01,316 --> 00:47:03,916
Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm watching the clock tick down in like

1065
00:47:04,076 --> 00:47:06,036
Speaker 1: extreme way, which means we've got to get to our

1066
00:47:06,076 --> 00:47:09,316
Speaker 1: parting thoughts, So parting thoughts on why we need this

1067
00:47:09,476 --> 00:47:12,316
Speaker 1: life and career investment and why we should take sabbaticals

1068
00:47:12,316 --> 00:47:12,916
Speaker 1: more seriously.

1069
00:47:14,196 --> 00:47:15,796
Speaker 4: I mean back to the regret insurance.

1070
00:47:15,796 --> 00:47:18,316
Speaker 3: I would just really think about what are some things

1071
00:47:18,396 --> 00:47:19,916
Speaker 3: that you would like to have as a part of

1072
00:47:19,916 --> 00:47:22,876
Speaker 3: your life story and actually document those, like write them

1073
00:47:22,956 --> 00:47:25,196
Speaker 3: down in a journal, and then think about, like, when

1074
00:47:25,236 --> 00:47:26,876
Speaker 3: are you going to actually be able to do them?

1075
00:47:27,156 --> 00:47:29,716
Speaker 3: I think often we live in this inertia, Oh well,

1076
00:47:29,756 --> 00:47:31,876
Speaker 3: this is the life I'm looking two weeks ahead, right,

1077
00:47:32,116 --> 00:47:34,036
Speaker 3: but really trying to take a step back and say, like,

1078
00:47:34,036 --> 00:47:36,076
Speaker 3: what are things that are important to me that I

1079
00:47:36,076 --> 00:47:38,196
Speaker 3: won't be able to do. A stat that I looked

1080
00:47:38,236 --> 00:47:40,756
Speaker 3: up that was kind of surprising was if you're like

1081
00:47:40,796 --> 00:47:42,956
Speaker 3: a forty year old male, which is what I am,

1082
00:47:43,076 --> 00:47:46,596
Speaker 3: I use mail because our stats are worse, your chances

1083
00:47:46,596 --> 00:47:49,596
Speaker 3: of making it to retirement age are five and six.

1084
00:47:49,756 --> 00:47:51,556
Speaker 3: So your chances of not making it are one and six.

1085
00:47:51,876 --> 00:47:52,236
Speaker 4: If you're a.

1086
00:47:52,276 --> 00:47:55,396
Speaker 3: Fifty year old couple, you have less than fifty percent

1087
00:47:55,516 --> 00:47:59,356
Speaker 3: chance of both partners reaching retirement age and being able

1088
00:47:59,476 --> 00:48:01,676
Speaker 3: mentally and physically to travel.

1089
00:48:02,876 --> 00:48:04,396
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm great at dinner parties.

1090
00:48:04,516 --> 00:48:05,476
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1091
00:48:05,996 --> 00:48:08,756
Speaker 3: And so like this we're going to wait till retirement thing,

1092
00:48:09,236 --> 00:48:12,196
Speaker 3: bucket list thing is not guaranteed. And I hope that

1093
00:48:12,276 --> 00:48:15,156
Speaker 3: like the pandemic gave us this like touch of like

1094
00:48:15,196 --> 00:48:18,636
Speaker 3: life is precious, but like waiting until you can retire

1095
00:48:18,796 --> 00:48:21,036
Speaker 3: is just not guaranteed. Both what are the things you

1096
00:48:21,076 --> 00:48:22,996
Speaker 3: wish you could do and then also oh my gosh,

1097
00:48:22,996 --> 00:48:24,476
Speaker 3: like I might not be able to do them. Hopefully

1098
00:48:24,516 --> 00:48:26,796
Speaker 3: we'll like spreay all into action. Twenty thirty one.

1099
00:48:27,276 --> 00:48:29,876
Speaker 1: Twenty thirty one, who's putting in their Google calendar today?

1100
00:48:30,076 --> 00:48:30,236
Speaker 4: Right?

1101
00:48:33,076 --> 00:48:35,036
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us, for having us lab live

1102
00:48:35,276 --> 00:48:36,556
Speaker 2: at south By Southwest.

1103
00:48:36,676 --> 00:48:37,436
Speaker 1: Thank you so much