1 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:16,420 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:25,140 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: Hello, hello, everyone. Malcolm Gladwell here. Greetings from Los Angeles. 3 00:00:29,220 --> 00:00:31,460 Speaker 2: I'm out on tour for my new book, The American 4 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,670 Speaker 2: Way of Killing, The Invention of an Epidemic, which is 5 00:00:34,730 --> 00:00:40,130 Speaker 2: my examination of America's ongoing problem with criminal violence, specifically 6 00:00:40,190 --> 00:00:43,630 Speaker 2: gun violence. I'm actually recording this from the closet in 7 00:00:43,670 --> 00:00:46,620 Speaker 2: my hotel room. Last week, we read a chapter from 8 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,380 Speaker 2: the book, one of my favorite chapters, The Slave Owner's Lament, 9 00:00:50,780 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: which you should listen to if you haven't yet, because 10 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,260 Speaker 2: I'm guessing it's the story you haven't heard about the 11 00:00:56,300 --> 00:00:59,540 Speaker 2: Second Amendment, and which left me more than a little 12 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:04,820 Speaker 2: surprised and angry. Next week, and the week after, we're 13 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 2: going to run a two-part series on the fascinating story 14 00:01:07,940 --> 00:01:10,380 Speaker 2: about what's been happening in Baltimore over the last couple 15 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,570 Speaker 2: of years, along with, because this is what we do 16 00:01:13,789 --> 00:01:16,970 Speaker 2: at Revisions History, a little excursion into the world of 17 00:01:17,069 --> 00:01:20,530 Speaker 2: cardiac bypass surgery. But right now, I want to share 18 00:01:20,569 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 2: with you a really fun and interesting interview I did 19 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,940 Speaker 2: with Brian Lehrer, who has one of the most popular 20 00:01:25,979 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: shows on WNYC, New York City's public radio station. So 21 00:01:31,039 --> 00:01:34,050 Speaker 2: have a listen. By all means, buy the book if 22 00:01:34,069 --> 00:01:36,410 Speaker 2: you are interested. And if you want to catch me 23 00:01:36,430 --> 00:01:38,910 Speaker 2: on the road, all of my book tour dates are 24 00:01:38,949 --> 00:01:42,770 Speaker 2: up on my website, glabell.com. Thanks for listening, everyone. 25 00:01:52,260 --> 00:01:56,420 Speaker 3: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. 26 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 3: Gun violence in America, not a new conversation or topic 27 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,300 Speaker 3: by any stretch, right? But there's actually a bit of 28 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,740 Speaker 3: a pattern. Every time there's a mass shooting, it comes 29 00:02:06,780 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 3: back into the spotlight, into the headlines. Democrats express mounting 30 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,430 Speaker 3: frustration and not being able to institute much meaningful gun 31 00:02:14,470 --> 00:02:17,850 Speaker 3: control reform, and then it kind of peters out, right? 32 00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:20,910 Speaker 3: The news cycle moves on. Well, we're going to talk 33 00:02:20,950 --> 00:02:23,489 Speaker 3: to Malcolm Gladwell about this because he's got a new 34 00:02:23,530 --> 00:02:28,270 Speaker 3: book coming out tomorrow, officially, called The American Way of Killing, 35 00:02:28,490 --> 00:02:32,130 Speaker 3: The Invention of an Epidemic, in which he argues that 36 00:02:32,150 --> 00:02:35,690 Speaker 3: the conversation around gun violence in the U.S. is misguided, 37 00:02:35,910 --> 00:02:38,510 Speaker 3: that people focus too much on mass shootings and not 38 00:02:38,570 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 3: enough on the kind of violence, gun violence, that disenfranchised 39 00:02:41,710 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: communities see every day. To address that kind of violence, 40 00:02:45,900 --> 00:02:49,130 Speaker 3: which makes up the vast majority, of gun violence in 41 00:02:49,150 --> 00:02:52,269 Speaker 3: the United States. He says the country needs more cops 42 00:02:52,930 --> 00:02:56,810 Speaker 3: and more intervention programs, both of those. By focusing so 43 00:02:56,870 --> 00:03:00,390 Speaker 3: narrowly on gun control as a prevention strategy, he argues, 44 00:03:00,970 --> 00:03:04,380 Speaker 3: gun violence activists are losing sight of the big picture. 45 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,300 Speaker 3: You might know Malcolm Gladwell because, well, he's one of 46 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,060 Speaker 3: the most popular nonfiction writers of our time. He's written 47 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 3: a whole range of bestselling books on social phenomena, including Blink, 48 00:03:15,940 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: The Tipping Point, and Outliers. That's the one where he 49 00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:22,060 Speaker 3: coined the idea that anybody can be an expert at 50 00:03:22,100 --> 00:03:25,700 Speaker 3: something if they dedicate 10,000 hours of practice to it. 51 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 3: You've heard that. That comes from Malcolm Gladwell. He was 52 00:03:28,890 --> 00:03:32,010 Speaker 3: a New Yorker staff writer for so many years, and 53 00:03:32,070 --> 00:03:35,850 Speaker 3: he also hosts the podcast Revisionist History. Again, his new book, 54 00:03:35,890 --> 00:03:39,430 Speaker 3: which comes out tomorrow, is called The American Way of Killing, 55 00:03:39,550 --> 00:03:44,090 Speaker 3: The Invention of an Epidemic. Malcolm, thanks so much for 56 00:03:44,130 --> 00:03:47,330 Speaker 3: coming on today. Always interesting to talk to you. Welcome 57 00:03:47,350 --> 00:03:48,410 Speaker 3: back to WNYC. 58 00:03:48,430 --> 00:03:48,930 Speaker 2: Thank you, Brian. 59 00:03:50,770 --> 00:03:53,490 Speaker 3: Well, let's start with the title, The American Way of Killing, 60 00:03:53,610 --> 00:03:57,030 Speaker 3: The Invention of an Epidemic. Why do you call the 61 00:03:57,090 --> 00:03:58,980 Speaker 3: gun violence epidemic an invention? 62 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,140 Speaker 2: Well, I feel like it's not something that's inherent to America. 63 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at our peer countries around 64 00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:10,750 Speaker 2: the world in Western Europe or our neighbor to the North, Canada, 65 00:04:11,270 --> 00:04:13,570 Speaker 2: which are in almost every other way very similar to 66 00:04:13,590 --> 00:04:16,730 Speaker 2: the United States— They have homicide rates that are a 67 00:04:17,370 --> 00:04:20,850 Speaker 2: fraction of the United States. And so we're clearly doing 68 00:04:20,950 --> 00:04:26,700 Speaker 2: something peculiar and different that sets us apart from the 69 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:33,980 Speaker 2: normal way that developed 21st century Western democracies behave. So 70 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,490 Speaker 2: it seems like we're inventing something, right? America wasn't born 71 00:04:38,510 --> 00:04:39,070 Speaker 2: with this problem. 72 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 3: In the book, you say the conversation that the country 73 00:04:43,220 --> 00:04:47,350 Speaker 3: tends to have around gun violence is dishonest. That's a 74 00:04:47,390 --> 00:04:52,110 Speaker 3: strong accusation as opposed to kind of well-intentioned but misguided 75 00:04:52,210 --> 00:04:53,910 Speaker 3: or something like that. Why dishonest? 76 00:04:54,630 --> 00:04:58,250 Speaker 2: Well, I use a dishonest very broadly. And what I 77 00:04:58,490 --> 00:05:04,340 Speaker 2: mean by that is that we focus on things that 78 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:07,220 Speaker 2: we pretend certain things are serious problems when they're not. 79 00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:11,860 Speaker 2: And other things we focus on We pretend certain ideas 80 00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: are solutions when they're actually not really a solution. We 81 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: avoid conclusions when they're too difficult. I mean, each chapter 82 00:05:17,790 --> 00:05:21,090 Speaker 2: of the book takes a different aspect of the problem 83 00:05:21,130 --> 00:05:27,210 Speaker 2: and shows how we've been fooling ourselves. I have two 84 00:05:27,230 --> 00:05:30,110 Speaker 2: chapters on the Supreme Court and the kind of absurd 85 00:05:30,170 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: way that the Supreme Court passes down gun rights rulings. 86 00:05:34,340 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: Or you mentioned in your intro, one of the arguments 87 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 2: of the book is that We have too few police 88 00:05:40,540 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: in America. And the reason I say that is very simple. 89 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,820 Speaker 2: If you could just compare North American cities with European counterparts, 90 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,260 Speaker 2: I'll use LA as an example. LA and Berlin are 91 00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:55,219 Speaker 2: exactly the same size. Los Angeles has 8,500 police officers. 92 00:05:55,820 --> 00:06:00,610 Speaker 2: Berlin has 18,000. And that's typical of the difference between 93 00:06:00,620 --> 00:06:03,790 Speaker 2: American cities and European cities. If you talk to any 94 00:06:03,830 --> 00:06:07,140 Speaker 2: American police chief, they will tell you they have, they are, 95 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 2: they are radically understaffed compared to their peers across the ocean. 96 00:06:11,180 --> 00:06:14,500 Speaker 2: Americans think the opposite. We think we're over-policed. Nothing could 97 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,540 Speaker 2: be further from the truth. That's a, to my mind, 98 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,550 Speaker 2: there's a level of dishonesty involved in that, an unwillingness 99 00:06:20,610 --> 00:06:23,140 Speaker 2: to kind of just look at the facts and draw 100 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,770 Speaker 2: reasonable conclusions. Instead, we have a, a kind of a 101 00:06:26,810 --> 00:06:30,210 Speaker 2: conversation that's burdened with all kinds of fantasies about what 102 00:06:30,250 --> 00:06:30,690 Speaker 2: we're doing. 103 00:06:31,730 --> 00:06:37,380 Speaker 3: Well, that's probably the most controversial part of your book. Uh, 104 00:06:38,350 --> 00:06:42,510 Speaker 3: I'll read an excerpt of your words. In 2020, an 105 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 3: African-American man in Minneapolis named George Floyd was killed by 106 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,220 Speaker 3: a rogue police officer, setting off an extraordinary wave of 107 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:52,420 Speaker 3: protests around the country over police brutality. The motto of 108 00:06:52,460 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 3: the protesters was defund the police. If police were badly behaved, 109 00:06:57,180 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 3: the thinking went it was because there were too many 110 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,850 Speaker 3: of them, unquote, from your book. So there's a lot 111 00:07:03,890 --> 00:07:08,470 Speaker 3: to unpack there. For one thing, You know, many people 112 00:07:08,510 --> 00:07:12,070 Speaker 3: would argue, no, this was not a rogue police officer. 113 00:07:13,090 --> 00:07:17,470 Speaker 3: Police officers are not maybe doing things every day like 114 00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:20,570 Speaker 3: that officer did or those officers did to George Floyd. 115 00:07:21,970 --> 00:07:26,910 Speaker 3: But they're a function of something systemic, the way policing 116 00:07:27,110 --> 00:07:28,790 Speaker 3: is done. Do you disagree with that? 117 00:07:29,270 --> 00:07:33,150 Speaker 2: I don't. In fact, I think that's spot on. However, 118 00:07:33,790 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: the conclusion from that observation is wrong. It is absolutely 119 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,990 Speaker 2: the case that American police as a group use more 120 00:07:43,060 --> 00:07:46,050 Speaker 2: force and are more violent and kill more civilians than 121 00:07:46,110 --> 00:07:50,850 Speaker 2: most other Western police forces around the world. We conclude 122 00:07:50,890 --> 00:07:52,910 Speaker 2: from that that we have too many police. The exact 123 00:07:52,990 --> 00:07:56,710 Speaker 2: opposite is true. Police, when you do an international comparison, 124 00:07:56,790 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: you find that the most violent and repressive police forces 125 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,100 Speaker 2: in the world are in countries where the police are 126 00:08:04,140 --> 00:08:07,750 Speaker 2: the least numerous in Police violence is a response to 127 00:08:07,790 --> 00:08:12,370 Speaker 2: being overwhelmed. If you feel like you're trying to police 128 00:08:12,410 --> 00:08:15,070 Speaker 2: a large area with a limited number of people, you're 129 00:08:15,110 --> 00:08:17,470 Speaker 2: only at one, not your only option, but one option 130 00:08:17,950 --> 00:08:21,910 Speaker 2: is to project force, is to behave in an overly 131 00:08:21,930 --> 00:08:25,350 Speaker 2: aggressive manner, is to try and demonstrate that you're bigger 132 00:08:25,370 --> 00:08:30,780 Speaker 2: and tougher than you actually are. If you have police 133 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,219 Speaker 2: in sufficient numbers, you don't have to behave that way. 134 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:35,770 Speaker 2: And that's what we see when you do a There's 135 00:08:36,030 --> 00:08:39,870 Speaker 2: two really, really, really wonderful sociologists at Harvard did this 136 00:08:39,949 --> 00:08:43,929 Speaker 2: international comparison where they showed this, that the most violent 137 00:08:43,949 --> 00:08:45,749 Speaker 2: police forces in the country, in the world, are in 138 00:08:46,370 --> 00:08:48,540 Speaker 2: countries where they have the fewest police and the best 139 00:08:48,569 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 2: behaved are in the countries that have the most police. 140 00:08:51,199 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 2: And this is their argument that police violence is a 141 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,759 Speaker 2: response to being overwhelmed. 142 00:09:13,059 --> 00:09:15,379 Speaker 3: So you argue we need more cops, but also that 143 00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 3: people need to trust them more and work with them 144 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,469 Speaker 3: more in order to be safer. But there's such a 145 00:09:21,479 --> 00:09:24,030 Speaker 3: long history of people not only being let down by 146 00:09:24,089 --> 00:09:27,790 Speaker 3: cops when, you know, maybe they are under enforcing in 147 00:09:27,870 --> 00:09:31,850 Speaker 3: some ways in high crime areas, but actually being brutalized 148 00:09:31,910 --> 00:09:32,429 Speaker 3: by cops. 149 00:09:32,569 --> 00:09:32,809 Speaker 4: Yeah. 150 00:09:33,189 --> 00:09:36,189 Speaker 3: So how do you think that trust can be rebuilt? 151 00:09:36,569 --> 00:09:40,029 Speaker 2: I think I had a really fascinating discussion when I 152 00:09:40,050 --> 00:09:42,250 Speaker 2: was doing my book with a guy named Daniel Oates. 153 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,910 Speaker 2: who is one of the most progressive, thoughtful police chiefs, 154 00:09:46,989 --> 00:09:48,890 Speaker 2: big city police chiefs in this country. And we were 155 00:09:48,910 --> 00:09:51,429 Speaker 2: talking about this. He used to be the police chief 156 00:09:51,469 --> 00:09:55,829 Speaker 2: in Aurora, Colorado, among other places. And he was, you know, 157 00:09:56,229 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 2: when I said to him, do you have too few 158 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,259 Speaker 2: police officers? He was like so wholeheartedly in agreement. He 159 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,900 Speaker 2: was like, unbelievable. You don't understand how undermanned we are. 160 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,739 Speaker 2: He talked about what would happen if he had European 161 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,059 Speaker 2: levels of police officers. In other words, what would happen 162 00:10:15,839 --> 00:10:18,660 Speaker 2: if we doubled the size of his police department in Aurora? 163 00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 2: He was saying that would permit me to get my 164 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,429 Speaker 2: officers out of the car, to work closely with community leaders, 165 00:10:27,030 --> 00:10:30,519 Speaker 2: to find out about troubles before they bubble to the surface, 166 00:10:31,099 --> 00:10:35,220 Speaker 2: to have a much closer feel for what's going on 167 00:10:35,260 --> 00:10:39,929 Speaker 2: in schools, because that's where juvenile delinquency leads in many 168 00:10:39,969 --> 00:10:42,949 Speaker 2: cases to more serious crimes down the road. You really 169 00:10:42,969 --> 00:10:45,189 Speaker 2: want to be intervening and getting to know kids before 170 00:10:45,250 --> 00:10:47,569 Speaker 2: they get in serious trouble. He went down the list. 171 00:10:47,929 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: For 40 minutes, he talked without stopping about all the 172 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 2: things he could do if he had more police officers. 173 00:10:53,770 --> 00:10:56,829 Speaker 2: And he said, when you have too few, as almost 174 00:10:56,910 --> 00:10:59,629 Speaker 2: every big city police officer, police chief, police department in 175 00:10:59,670 --> 00:11:03,020 Speaker 2: this country does, you can't get your officers out of 176 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,780 Speaker 2: the car. What they're doing is they are racing from 177 00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:08,900 Speaker 2: one emergency to the next and never have the time 178 00:11:08,979 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 2: to build those kinds of ties with the community that 179 00:11:11,599 --> 00:11:15,189 Speaker 2: are so important. We have so got this backwards in 180 00:11:15,209 --> 00:11:17,900 Speaker 2: this country and every I could line up every police 181 00:11:17,939 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: chief in this country and they would say, oh, you're 182 00:11:20,319 --> 00:11:22,660 Speaker 2: absolutely right. I can't do what I need to do. 183 00:11:23,099 --> 00:11:26,030 Speaker 2: They don't want to be, they don't want to have 184 00:11:26,059 --> 00:11:29,270 Speaker 2: a mistrustful relationship with the general public. They don't want 185 00:11:29,290 --> 00:11:32,130 Speaker 2: to have people in their force who use excessive violence. 186 00:11:32,689 --> 00:11:37,150 Speaker 2: They're trapped in this situation because they have half the 187 00:11:37,189 --> 00:11:39,409 Speaker 2: resources of other countries around the world. 188 00:11:41,290 --> 00:11:44,349 Speaker 3: But do you also not think that there need to 189 00:11:44,370 --> 00:11:51,939 Speaker 3: be big reforms? in how the police approach policing. You 190 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 3: did a stat, which is part of what you do, right? 191 00:11:55,339 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 3: You look at data and you try to draw conclusions 192 00:11:59,140 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: about issues in the world from big data sets. And 193 00:12:02,439 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 3: so you were comparing the high rates of gun violence 194 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 3: in the United States with relatively fewer police to. 195 00:12:14,699 --> 00:12:17,620 Speaker 3: Lower rates of gun violence in cities around the world 196 00:12:18,179 --> 00:12:20,660 Speaker 3: with more police. But I think a lot of people 197 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,540 Speaker 3: would argue there are other reasons, at least in addition, 198 00:12:24,179 --> 00:12:27,599 Speaker 3: for the violence in the United States, including the police 199 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 3: violence in the United States, the history of slavery and 200 00:12:30,380 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 3: the role of the police early, early on in enforcing 201 00:12:34,699 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 3: that being among them. 202 00:12:36,939 --> 00:12:37,260 Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. 203 00:12:37,319 --> 00:12:39,860 Speaker 2: I mean, this is, Brian, I was just talking about 204 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,039 Speaker 2: one chapter in a book with many chapters. You're absolutely right. 205 00:12:43,199 --> 00:12:44,699 Speaker 3: I understand. 206 00:12:46,339 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: I don't mean to suggest, and I don't argue, that 207 00:12:48,780 --> 00:12:51,620 Speaker 2: this is a problem solely about the police. The police, 208 00:12:53,099 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 2: the under-resourced nature of police departments in the U.S. is 209 00:12:56,239 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: one factor of many that account for this ongoing American crisis. 210 00:13:01,079 --> 00:13:04,020 Speaker 2: And I kind of walk through, you mentioned, for example, 211 00:13:04,079 --> 00:13:06,500 Speaker 2: the legacy of slavery. And I have a whole chapter 212 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 2: called The Slave Owner's Lament, which talks about how our 213 00:13:10,079 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: notion of gun rights in America arises out of our 214 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,579 Speaker 2: experience with slavery. The reason the Second Amendment exists is 215 00:13:18,650 --> 00:13:23,569 Speaker 2: that plantation owners in the 18th century, in places like 216 00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:29,209 Speaker 2: Virginia and South Carolina, were very anxious when the Constitution 217 00:13:29,270 --> 00:13:32,510 Speaker 2: was first proposed that they would lose the right to 218 00:13:32,569 --> 00:13:38,630 Speaker 2: have militias, slave patrols. The armed groups of men who 219 00:13:38,670 --> 00:13:43,829 Speaker 2: went around making sure that the slaves were under direct control, 220 00:13:45,010 --> 00:13:52,189 Speaker 2: weren't rising up and protesting or trying to overthrow their overseers. 221 00:13:53,569 --> 00:13:56,290 Speaker 2: And the Second Amendment was an attempt by James Madison 222 00:13:56,729 --> 00:14:02,429 Speaker 2: to mollify the plantation owners of Virginia and South Carolina, 223 00:14:02,890 --> 00:14:05,549 Speaker 2: whose votes were essential for the ratification of the Constitution. 224 00:14:06,130 --> 00:14:10,909 Speaker 2: So when the Second Amendment says, because a militia is 225 00:14:10,949 --> 00:14:17,490 Speaker 2: so central to a safe and secure country, we need 226 00:14:17,770 --> 00:14:19,870 Speaker 2: the right to bear arms. What he's doing is he's 227 00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:23,300 Speaker 2: saying to the slave owners, we're giving you this so 228 00:14:23,340 --> 00:14:26,460 Speaker 2: you can continue to keep your slaves under control. 229 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,419 Speaker 3: And yet, and maybe ironically, you also have in the 230 00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:33,060 Speaker 3: book this bit about the Wild West, but a lot 231 00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:36,290 Speaker 3: of it is in the South. which of course was 232 00:14:36,609 --> 00:14:41,370 Speaker 3: the slaveholding part of the country, that when pistols came 233 00:14:41,470 --> 00:14:44,570 Speaker 3: onto the market in the first half of the 19th century, 234 00:14:45,070 --> 00:14:48,450 Speaker 3: gun violence became a huge issue. And then a lot 235 00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:51,779 Speaker 3: of places that were dealing with this violence, like Texas, 236 00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 3: which we might not guess, and Arkansas, which we might 237 00:14:54,979 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 3: not guess, actually instituted pretty strict Gun laws, much stricter 238 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,479 Speaker 3: than they have today. Give us a little of that history. 239 00:15:02,620 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a fascinating kind of deja vu moment 240 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,389 Speaker 2: in American history. The exact same argument that we have 241 00:15:12,430 --> 00:15:16,390 Speaker 2: today about gun violence was happening in America in the 242 00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:21,230 Speaker 2: mid-19th century because the arrival of the revolver dramatically changed 243 00:15:21,270 --> 00:15:24,860 Speaker 2: the scale of violence that people were seeing, particularly in 244 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,830 Speaker 2: the frontier West, that all of a sudden, Pistols were cheap. 245 00:15:29,370 --> 00:15:36,369 Speaker 2: They were efficient. You didn't have to reload. You could 246 00:15:36,390 --> 00:15:39,460 Speaker 2: fire six shots at one time. And this created a 247 00:15:40,020 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: huge spike in the level and the concern over gun 248 00:15:43,479 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: violence in the United States. In response to that, one 249 00:15:48,020 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: town after another, and the list of cities and towns 250 00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:53,980 Speaker 2: that enacted very, very strict gun control laws, ordinances in 251 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,340 Speaker 2: response to the rise of the revolver is, I mean, 252 00:15:57,359 --> 00:15:59,279 Speaker 2: it's as long as my arm. It's like all around 253 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:02,100 Speaker 2: the country, particularly in the South and the West. City 254 00:16:02,140 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: after city passed laws that said things like, if you 255 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,140 Speaker 2: enter our town, you have to give up your gun, 256 00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:11,580 Speaker 2: or you have to pay a massive tax if you 257 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,940 Speaker 2: want to buy a gun, or you have to, you know, 258 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,180 Speaker 2: register your gun with the local authorities, or, I mean, 259 00:16:17,220 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: the kinds of things that we think of as unthinkable 260 00:16:20,270 --> 00:16:24,820 Speaker 2: today were a a matter where commonplace, particularly in the 261 00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:31,170 Speaker 2: so-called Wild West, I have a whole chapter about the 262 00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:35,289 Speaker 2: myth of the Wild West. The Wild West is a incredibly, 263 00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:37,970 Speaker 2: the notion of this kind of violent period on the 264 00:16:37,989 --> 00:16:42,249 Speaker 2: American frontier was incredibly brief because one town after another 265 00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:47,210 Speaker 2: on the frontier enacted these incredibly strict gun control ordinances 266 00:16:47,609 --> 00:16:50,250 Speaker 2: to make sure that when young men came into town, 267 00:16:53,850 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: armed young men came into town and started drinking in 268 00:16:56,060 --> 00:16:58,340 Speaker 2: the local bars, they had to give up the guns first. 269 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: It's a funny kind of version of American history. 270 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 3: So how did it flip? 271 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: How did it flip? It flipped because our conversation about 272 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: gun violence became dishonest. If you talk to people, if 273 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:21,270 Speaker 2: you look at the way the public discussion about gun 274 00:17:21,310 --> 00:17:26,490 Speaker 2: violence happened in the mid-19th century, what you see is 275 00:17:26,610 --> 00:17:29,970 Speaker 2: a very kind of honest understanding about what the problem was. 276 00:17:30,030 --> 00:17:32,290 Speaker 2: The problem was young men were getting drunk and were 277 00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: settling arguments with pistols, with pistols that were very deadly, 278 00:17:36,540 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: and that that was causing a spike in homicides, and 279 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 2: that the quickest way to get control over this problem 280 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 2: was to take away the pistols. So they settled their 281 00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:51,460 Speaker 2: arguments with fists and knives instead of a more lethal weapon, right? 282 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,850 Speaker 2: People weren't pretending. They weren't pretending the problem was something 283 00:17:54,910 --> 00:17:58,870 Speaker 2: other than it was. And they weren't erecting some kind 284 00:17:58,890 --> 00:18:02,170 Speaker 2: of ideological barrier to taking that kind of action. It 285 00:18:02,210 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 2: was felt that if you were in some, you know, 286 00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:08,340 Speaker 2: roaring frontier town where things were veering out of control, 287 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 2: there was some common sense steps you could take to 288 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,780 Speaker 2: bring them back under control, right? And it wasn't progressives 289 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,970 Speaker 2: and bleeding heart liberals making this argument. It was the 290 00:18:18,010 --> 00:18:21,220 Speaker 2: town father's who were tired of seeing young men being 291 00:18:21,260 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: killed on Friday and Saturday nights in their city. So 292 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:31,060 Speaker 2: what has happened, I think, is that we've allowed politics 293 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,190 Speaker 2: and ideology to kind of permeate every aspect of this discussion. 294 00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:41,109 Speaker 2: And in my book, I try and stay completely out 295 00:18:41,130 --> 00:18:46,350 Speaker 2: of politics entirely. There is no ideology here. in the 296 00:18:46,370 --> 00:18:48,670 Speaker 2: American way of killing. I'm not making a Democratic argument 297 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 2: or a Republican argument. In fact, I place the blame 298 00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:54,420 Speaker 2: equally on both sides. This should not, there is no 299 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 2: reason that this argument, this discussion should be partisan. The 300 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,740 Speaker 2: minute you make it partisan, you lose track, lose contact 301 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:02,380 Speaker 2: with reality. 302 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,980 Speaker 3: What's the part that you blame on Democrats? 303 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,140 Speaker 2: I think that Democrats have people, that there's a certain 304 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,380 Speaker 2: kind of gun control fetishism that has taken over a 305 00:19:14,450 --> 00:19:17,580 Speaker 2: lot of the progressive response to gun violence. And I 306 00:19:17,620 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: have no problem in theory with that. Like I've just said, 307 00:19:19,940 --> 00:19:22,340 Speaker 2: I think that this is an important piece of the puzzle. 308 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:31,210 Speaker 2: But it can't be the only thing you're doing. Realistically, 309 00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:33,610 Speaker 2: how quickly could we get meaningful gun control in this country? 310 00:19:33,870 --> 00:19:38,190 Speaker 2: The court has been leading, both Congress and the courts 311 00:19:38,250 --> 00:19:40,750 Speaker 2: have been leading the country in the opposite direction for 312 00:19:40,790 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 2: a generation. This is, even if it works... This is 313 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,340 Speaker 2: a battle that's gonna be 25 or 30 years in 314 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,900 Speaker 2: the making, right? So what do you do in the interim? 315 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: If you put all your eggs in that basket, you've 316 00:19:52,540 --> 00:19:55,030 Speaker 2: got nothing to help people right now. And when I 317 00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:56,889 Speaker 2: went in for this book and talked to people who 318 00:19:56,950 --> 00:19:59,700 Speaker 2: are doing homicide prevention on the front lines, they don't 319 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: even mention gun control. Not because they aren't in favor 320 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:04,940 Speaker 2: of it. They are. But just because it doesn't help 321 00:20:04,980 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 2: them right now. With the last two major Supreme Court 322 00:20:08,980 --> 00:20:12,110 Speaker 2: rulings on gun violence, the Bruin case and the Heller case, 323 00:20:12,510 --> 00:20:15,530 Speaker 2: the court is making it harder and harder and harder 324 00:20:15,910 --> 00:20:18,770 Speaker 2: to pass meaningful gun control in this country. The The 325 00:20:18,790 --> 00:20:23,740 Speaker 2: Bruin case took away New York State's handgun law, which 326 00:20:23,780 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 2: had been in place for 100 years, in which there 327 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,379 Speaker 2: was clear evidence that it reduced suicides by gun in 328 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: New York State, dramatically reduced suicides by gun in the 329 00:20:34,020 --> 00:20:36,900 Speaker 2: United States. The court took that away. That's where we're 330 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,100 Speaker 2: going with gun control. We're not winning right now. So 331 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,050 Speaker 2: the question is, we should continue to fight the good fight, 332 00:20:43,090 --> 00:20:46,790 Speaker 2: but that can't be the only thing you talk about, right? 333 00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 2: You've got to You have to broaden your response. And 334 00:20:49,260 --> 00:20:53,620 Speaker 2: I feel like even in doing interviews for this book, 335 00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 2: I find that my interviewers, they just want to talk 336 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,030 Speaker 2: about guns all the time. You can't just talk about guns. 337 00:20:59,820 --> 00:21:13,470 Speaker 3: All the time. Malcolm Gladwell. is my guest with his 338 00:21:13,530 --> 00:21:16,270 Speaker 3: new book about gun violence in the United States called 339 00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:19,610 Speaker 3: The American Way of Killing, The Invention of an Epidemic. 340 00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:21,330 Speaker 3: And Carolyn in St. 341 00:21:21,390 --> 00:21:21,710 Speaker 2: Louis. 342 00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:24,810 Speaker 3: You're on WNYC with Malcolm Gladwell. Hi, Carolyn. Thank you 343 00:21:24,830 --> 00:21:25,369 Speaker 3: for calling in. 344 00:21:25,390 --> 00:21:31,100 Speaker 4: Hi, Brian. Thank you so much. I really appreciate this discussion. 345 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:37,700 Speaker 4: And my husband and I believe that part of the 346 00:21:37,740 --> 00:21:42,100 Speaker 4: problem is what your guest is talking about the police 347 00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:48,629 Speaker 4: in other countries, their philosophy is that they're to remind 348 00:21:48,650 --> 00:21:53,710 Speaker 4: the people of the law. But in the U.S., our 349 00:21:53,810 --> 00:21:58,410 Speaker 4: police have the philosophy that they are the law. And 350 00:21:58,450 --> 00:22:03,250 Speaker 4: I think if we could just define those two differences 351 00:22:03,670 --> 00:22:06,310 Speaker 4: and take a look at how we might start to 352 00:22:06,350 --> 00:22:10,030 Speaker 4: change people's minds here in the United States, That might 353 00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:11,790 Speaker 4: be an approach. I don't know. 354 00:22:11,810 --> 00:22:15,810 Speaker 3: What do you mean by are the law? Do you 355 00:22:15,850 --> 00:22:17,910 Speaker 3: want to expand on that a little bit and get 356 00:22:17,930 --> 00:22:19,250 Speaker 3: a little specific, Carolyn? 357 00:22:20,830 --> 00:22:24,780 Speaker 4: Well, you know, as we see it, there are so 358 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 4: many situations where there are definitely not enough people to 359 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:37,619 Speaker 4: help with those that have mental illness. and things that 360 00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 4: the police are just not trained to deal with. But 361 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,740 Speaker 4: like George Floyd, I mean, if you look at situations 362 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:55,860 Speaker 4: around the country, it's just that we, our police, think 363 00:22:55,900 --> 00:22:59,380 Speaker 4: that they are the law. And I think that that's 364 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,570 Speaker 4: coming down from the top, not just the top of 365 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,620 Speaker 4: the police, department, but I think from the very top 366 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,500 Speaker 4: of the administration. And we've got to remind people that 367 00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:15,300 Speaker 4: the police, I think, and I'd like to know what 368 00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 4: your guest thinks, that the police are here to remind 369 00:23:20,470 --> 00:23:22,490 Speaker 4: people of what the law is. 370 00:23:22,510 --> 00:23:25,530 Speaker 3: Carolyn, thank you very much. Malcolm? 371 00:23:26,550 --> 00:23:30,690 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think she's, I think Carolyn is raising 372 00:23:30,730 --> 00:23:33,470 Speaker 2: an important point, which is, if you go back to 373 00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: the The father of modern policing was Sir Robert Peel, 374 00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:40,830 Speaker 2: who was the Englishman who founded the Metropolitan Police in 375 00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:44,770 Speaker 2: London in the late 18th century. And he has a 376 00:23:44,850 --> 00:23:48,070 Speaker 2: famous set of 10 principles of policing, which are as 377 00:23:48,130 --> 00:23:50,910 Speaker 2: relevant today as they were back then. And one of 378 00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:53,990 Speaker 2: his principles, the one I love the most, is the 379 00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:56,350 Speaker 2: police are the people and the people are the police, 380 00:23:57,830 --> 00:24:00,500 Speaker 2: which I think is what Carolyn was talking about, that 381 00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:03,660 Speaker 2: his idea from the very beginning was that the police 382 00:24:03,820 --> 00:24:07,450 Speaker 2: are one of us and there ought not to be 383 00:24:07,490 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 2: a clear line between the ordinary citizens and the people 384 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,330 Speaker 2: who are charged with reminding us about what the law is. 385 00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:18,290 Speaker 2: And that principle is not lost in America. There are many, many, 386 00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:23,170 Speaker 2: many wonderful police officers and police chiefs in this country. 387 00:24:23,790 --> 00:24:27,550 Speaker 2: But we have these really troubling edge cases like George Floyd, 388 00:24:28,010 --> 00:24:31,690 Speaker 2: which cause an enormous amount of mistrust between the general 389 00:24:31,710 --> 00:24:35,030 Speaker 2: public and the police. And we need, I think, to recapture. 390 00:24:35,050 --> 00:24:38,410 Speaker 2: If you just look at something as simple as what 391 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,700 Speaker 2: they call clearance rates, what percentage of crimes are solved 392 00:24:41,740 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 2: by the police? In Europe, clearance rates are often for 393 00:24:45,020 --> 00:24:48,700 Speaker 2: a homicide. These sort of 85% to 90% of homicides 394 00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: are solved by the police. In many American big cities, 395 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:58,550 Speaker 2: that number is well below 50%. And why is that? 396 00:24:58,950 --> 00:25:01,510 Speaker 2: Because people don't trust the police, right? The only way 397 00:25:01,530 --> 00:25:03,610 Speaker 2: you can solve a homicide is if people come forward, 398 00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:07,850 Speaker 2: people from the community. So we need, I think that 399 00:25:08,490 --> 00:25:11,810 Speaker 2: part of the thing that needs to be restored is 400 00:25:11,860 --> 00:25:13,500 Speaker 2: that notion that the people are the police and the 401 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,700 Speaker 2: police are the people. And I think one of the 402 00:25:15,740 --> 00:25:18,020 Speaker 2: ways you get there is by thinking much more seriously 403 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 2: about how you spend your resources on public safety. 404 00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 3: In the book, You spend some time drawing a distinction 405 00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:31,900 Speaker 3: between what you call instrumental violence and expressive violence. Instrumental 406 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 3: violence and expressive violence. What is that distinction and why 407 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:36,860 Speaker 3: do you think it's important? 408 00:25:37,260 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: Oh, it's a crucially important one. And this is another 409 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:45,300 Speaker 2: area where the conversation we have about gun violence is misguided. 410 00:25:46,220 --> 00:25:51,500 Speaker 2: Instrumental violence is a crime committed in the course of 411 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,830 Speaker 2: some large irrational end. I'm robbing a bank. The guard 412 00:25:55,870 --> 00:25:58,220 Speaker 2: gets in the way. I shoot the guard, right, in 413 00:25:58,260 --> 00:26:01,020 Speaker 2: order to rob the bank. That's instrumental violence. It's planned. 414 00:26:01,260 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 2: It's executed. There's a rational goal. If you look at 415 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 2: the way we discuss homicide in popular culture, it's almost 416 00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:12,330 Speaker 2: all instrumental. I do an analysis of a season of 417 00:26:12,370 --> 00:26:15,780 Speaker 2: Law & Order. which is probably watched by more people 418 00:26:15,820 --> 00:26:18,500 Speaker 2: know about homicide from law and order than probably anything else. 419 00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 2: It's all instrumental crimes. People have a clear motive. They 420 00:26:21,620 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: got some goal. They commit the murder in order to 421 00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 2: get something else. Expressive violence is violence committed in the 422 00:26:28,060 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 2: heat of emotion. Where the violence is the point. You 423 00:26:33,380 --> 00:26:36,380 Speaker 2: killed my brother. So I'm coming after you and I 424 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 2: see you in a bar and I pull a gun 425 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 2: and I shoot you. That's expressive violence, right? It's emotional violence. 426 00:26:42,180 --> 00:26:45,500 Speaker 2: it's spontaneous, it's unplanned, it's often regretted after the fact, 427 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 2: and the violence is, I'm trying to settle some, to 428 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,620 Speaker 2: enact some kind of rough justice. Most of the homicide 429 00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:55,290 Speaker 2: that we see in the United States is expressive. And 430 00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:59,170 Speaker 2: once you understand, it's young men settling arguments with guns. 431 00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:03,810 Speaker 2: That's what homicide is, right? And any solution which fails 432 00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:07,860 Speaker 2: to have that notion at its core is not a solution. 433 00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:11,450 Speaker 2: So if I say, I want to curb violence, gun 434 00:27:11,470 --> 00:27:15,330 Speaker 2: violence by doubling the length of sentences for shootings. That's 435 00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:18,110 Speaker 2: not going to solve our problem. Because the young man 436 00:27:18,150 --> 00:27:20,710 Speaker 2: who is really, really upset and maybe drunk or high 437 00:27:20,790 --> 00:27:22,750 Speaker 2: and sees his enemy in a bar and pulls a gun, 438 00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:27,750 Speaker 2: he's not thinking about the long-term consequences of his actions. 439 00:27:27,790 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: He's not thinking, oh, I shouldn't do this because I'm 440 00:27:30,810 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 2: looking at 40 years instead of 20, right? That whole 441 00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: idea that you could affect the behavior of someone just 442 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:40,870 Speaker 2: by tinkering with the length of a sentence is When 443 00:27:40,910 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 2: the behavior itself is impulsive and emotional and being done 444 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: by an 18-year-old who has very, very poor conflict management skills, 445 00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:53,340 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just absurd. 446 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:58,150 Speaker 3: And so you're right a lot about social programs designed 447 00:27:58,230 --> 00:28:03,109 Speaker 3: to help curb gun violence through training school-age students to 448 00:28:03,170 --> 00:28:07,410 Speaker 3: maintain their emotions and avoid resorting. to violence like the 449 00:28:07,470 --> 00:28:10,010 Speaker 3: kind you were just describing. Some form of this already 450 00:28:10,050 --> 00:28:12,210 Speaker 3: exists in a lot of places where we see the 451 00:28:12,290 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 3: most gun violence, New York and elsewhere. So are they 452 00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:20,820 Speaker 3: doing it wrong? Or what would you say about that effort? 453 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: That effort is, when it has been tried properly, has 454 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,360 Speaker 2: been extraordinarily successful. I've just done two episodes of my 455 00:28:27,420 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: podcast on Baltimore and what's going on in Baltimore, where 456 00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:33,650 Speaker 2: they've seen unbelievable drops in homicides in the last couple 457 00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: of years under the Brandon Scott administration. They've gone from 458 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 2: 350 homicides a year and they make it under 100 459 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,490 Speaker 2: this year, and that's in three years. I mean, it's 460 00:28:43,530 --> 00:28:47,010 Speaker 2: a kind of unprecedented decline. And what they're doing there 461 00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:49,830 Speaker 2: is exactly a form of what I'm talking about. They 462 00:28:49,910 --> 00:28:55,410 Speaker 2: are essentially intervening on a personal, individualized basis in any 463 00:28:55,490 --> 00:28:58,370 Speaker 2: social situation that they think might lead to a homicide. 464 00:28:59,070 --> 00:29:05,380 Speaker 2: So you shoot my brother, right? And so the police... 465 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 2: come to me and they say, Malcolm, I know you 466 00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:10,740 Speaker 2: just lost your brother and you're angry and you're upset. 467 00:29:10,780 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: And I know that you just posted on social media 468 00:29:13,820 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 2: that you're going after Brian. Don't do it. Let us 469 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,510 Speaker 2: help you. Let's talk you through this. And then you, 470 00:29:19,570 --> 00:29:22,650 Speaker 2: you know, you, that kind of, you bring in my 471 00:29:22,690 --> 00:29:25,430 Speaker 2: father or my pastor or somebody to talk to me 472 00:29:25,470 --> 00:29:27,710 Speaker 2: and talk me down off the ledge. You offer me 473 00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:30,850 Speaker 2: support services to make sure I don't retaliate. It's that 474 00:29:30,980 --> 00:29:35,190 Speaker 2: kind of, that has proven to be extraordinarily effective. It 475 00:29:35,230 --> 00:29:37,690 Speaker 2: has nothing to do with arresting people, nothing to do 476 00:29:37,730 --> 00:29:40,620 Speaker 2: with threatening them with prison, nothing to do with carrying 477 00:29:40,660 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 2: a gun and going in and waving it around. It 478 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,730 Speaker 2: has to do with meeting people where they are and 479 00:29:45,770 --> 00:29:49,430 Speaker 2: understanding that the roots of criminal violence are in emotions. 480 00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 2: and in broken relationships and in fractured social circumstances and 481 00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: in unforgiving environments. That's the approach that we need if 482 00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:00,220 Speaker 2: we want to take this problem seriously. 483 00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:03,610 Speaker 3: So if we look, for example, at the New York 484 00:30:03,630 --> 00:30:09,790 Speaker 3: City stat that a disproportionate amount of gun violence is 485 00:30:09,850 --> 00:30:12,410 Speaker 3: perpetrated in very few neighborhoods. 486 00:30:12,510 --> 00:30:13,730 Speaker 2: Exactly. That is exactly. 487 00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:18,830 Speaker 3: Would you say that kind of training needs to be, what, 488 00:30:19,010 --> 00:30:21,910 Speaker 3: just multiplied in terms of the amount of it or 489 00:30:22,130 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 3: changed in terms of the approach of it in those 490 00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:28,050 Speaker 3: particular neighborhoods? Like if Mayor Mamdani were to be listening in. 491 00:30:28,420 --> 00:30:32,380 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, New York has been exceedingly successful in recent years. 492 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: I mean, New York is probably the most kind of 493 00:30:34,540 --> 00:30:39,620 Speaker 2: advanced neighborhood homicide fighting force in the country. That's why 494 00:30:40,620 --> 00:30:44,290 Speaker 2: our violent crime rates are so incredibly low in this city. 495 00:30:44,790 --> 00:30:46,390 Speaker 2: And a lot of what I've been talking about is 496 00:30:46,430 --> 00:30:49,450 Speaker 2: something that has been part of New York City practice 497 00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:53,030 Speaker 2: for some time now. Ever since the city switched from 498 00:30:53,610 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: the in retrospect disastrous policy of mass incarceration during the 499 00:30:58,850 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 2: mass arrests during the Giuliani years to this much more 500 00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: focused policy that we have now. You know, one of 501 00:31:05,620 --> 00:31:08,580 Speaker 2: the One of the key findings that drives this more 502 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: enlightened approach to gun violence is at any given time, 503 00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:15,010 Speaker 2: even in a very large community, the number of people 504 00:31:15,060 --> 00:31:18,650 Speaker 2: who are engaged or at risk for gun violence is very, 505 00:31:18,690 --> 00:31:22,510 Speaker 2: very small. In Baltimore's Western District, where they've been doing 506 00:31:22,550 --> 00:31:26,170 Speaker 2: the bulk of this work, it's an area of 40,000 people. 507 00:31:26,190 --> 00:31:29,350 Speaker 2: The belief is that we're talking about a couple of 508 00:31:29,410 --> 00:31:33,570 Speaker 2: hundred young men at any given time who are at 509 00:31:33,610 --> 00:31:36,090 Speaker 2: risk for shooting someone or being shot. There was a 510 00:31:36,130 --> 00:31:39,530 Speaker 2: great analysis done in west side of Chicago, 50,000 people 511 00:31:39,570 --> 00:31:43,430 Speaker 2: in the west side. The gun manager, Papa Christos, did 512 00:31:43,550 --> 00:31:46,190 Speaker 2: work where he showed that we're probably talking about 400 513 00:31:46,190 --> 00:31:49,770 Speaker 2: people who are at risk for gun violence. It's very small. 514 00:31:50,230 --> 00:31:53,070 Speaker 2: That's why you can do individualized attention. 515 00:31:54,570 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 3: We have two minutes left, one more caller, and it 516 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 3: won't surprise you that your call earlier in the segment 517 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,670 Speaker 3: for more police rather than fewer as a way to 518 00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:13,970 Speaker 3: control gun violence and police violence, is drawing most of 519 00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:19,260 Speaker 3: the response. Lynn in Portland, Oregon, you're on WNYC with 520 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 3: Malcolm Gladwell. We have 30 seconds for you, Lynn. Go 521 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 3: for it. 522 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,060 Speaker 2: Go, Lynn. Oh, boy. 523 00:32:24,550 --> 00:32:28,510 Speaker 1: Okay, thanks a lot. Yeah, I agree with everything that Mr. 524 00:32:28,530 --> 00:32:33,330 Speaker 1: Gladwell is saying. I have seen what happened in Portland, Oregon, 525 00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:39,450 Speaker 1: post-George Floyd. And the population went from really not making 526 00:32:39,550 --> 00:32:42,950 Speaker 1: the cops a big deal to there's just a real 527 00:32:43,070 --> 00:32:46,350 Speaker 1: rift between the police and the public. And I was 528 00:32:46,390 --> 00:32:49,470 Speaker 1: helping a woman try to come down from a bridge 529 00:32:49,530 --> 00:32:54,230 Speaker 1: where she was attempting to commit suicide. And unbeknownst to me, 530 00:32:54,290 --> 00:32:57,290 Speaker 1: the police were called. And when they came in, she 531 00:32:58,270 --> 00:33:01,990 Speaker 1: totally freaked out. She didn't jump, but it became a 532 00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:08,210 Speaker 1: highly escalated scene. I tried to have the cops understand 533 00:33:08,270 --> 00:33:11,330 Speaker 1: that this woman is afraid of you. She doesn't want 534 00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:14,330 Speaker 1: to have you help her. And they told. 535 00:33:14,150 --> 00:33:17,070 Speaker 3: The screener they were they were dressed in war gear. 536 00:33:17,370 --> 00:33:19,900 Speaker 3: And that's part of what scared. 537 00:33:19,310 --> 00:33:20,980 Speaker 1: Her going to World War Three. 538 00:33:21,980 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 3: Then I'm going to leave it there because we have 539 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,300 Speaker 3: 30 seconds for Malcolm to have the last word. I 540 00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 3: know you got to go. Malcolm, go for it. Then 541 00:33:28,540 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 3: we're done. 542 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 2: No, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That's what you 543 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,210 Speaker 2: do when there is a rift between you and the community. 544 00:33:36,610 --> 00:33:39,390 Speaker 2: You dress up like an invading force and you lose 545 00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:41,550 Speaker 2: your ability to have a real conversation with the people 546 00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:44,730 Speaker 2: that you're supposed to be helping. And I think that's 547 00:33:44,830 --> 00:33:47,150 Speaker 2: one of the things we need to address in this country. 548 00:33:48,850 --> 00:33:54,820 Speaker 3: Malcolm Gladwell. author of many bestselling books, Blink, The Tipping Point, Outliers. 549 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 3: His new one is called The American Way of Killing, 550 00:33:58,380 --> 00:34:01,580 Speaker 3: The Invention of an Epidemic. Malcolm, thank you very much. 551 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 2: Thank you, Brian. 552 00:34:08,739 --> 00:34:18,170 Speaker 3: Recorded live on WNYC's The Brian Lehrer Show. Revisionist History 553 00:34:18,390 --> 00:34:19,890 Speaker 3: is hosted by Malcolm Gladwell. 554 00:34:20,330 --> 00:34:23,649 Speaker 1: And produced by me, Nina Bird Lawrence, with Lucy Sullivan 555 00:34:23,810 --> 00:34:27,609 Speaker 1: and Ben Natafafri. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. 556 00:34:27,989 --> 00:34:32,460 Speaker 3: Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Original music by Luis Guerra. 557 00:34:32,839 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Jake Gorski. 558 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 3: Special thanks to WNYC, Brian Lehrer, and Lisa Allison.