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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Wednesday, it's April first,

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Speaker 2: and we have a stacked night of headlines.

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Speaker 3: Taha, no fool and no April O God.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know you looking to say that, and I refused,

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Speaker 2: but we true Crime Tonight. We have a stacked out

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Speaker 2: of headline of headlines, and indeed we will not be

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Speaker 2: doing April of Fools at all. What we will be

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Speaker 2: talking about is shocking testimony the teenage son of the

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Speaker 2: doctor on trial in Hawaii for the attempted murder of

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Speaker 2: his wife. We're going to talk through his testimony and

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Speaker 2: we have some audio as well, and it's heartbreaking. We're

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Speaker 2: also going to be unpacking a case where two Las

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Speaker 2: Vegas teenagers are being prosecuted as adults, and that's for

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Speaker 2: child abuse after a school trip gone as deplorably wrong

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Speaker 2: as you can kind of imagine. And we're going to

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Speaker 2: be answering a ton of your legal questions on cases

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Speaker 2: ranging from the Menendaz Brothers to the Long Island serial killer.

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Speaker 2: And we're going to be discussing the powerful, harrowing documentary

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Speaker 2: the Alabama Solution, and that is for our true crime

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Speaker 2: and chill. Finally, I am Courtney Armstrong. I am here

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Speaker 2: with body. Move in. Stephanie Lydeker is out tonight. But

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Speaker 2: we are so lucky. No reason to fret because veteran

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Speaker 2: trial attorney Pennsylvania prosecutor Jarrett Farantino is with us. Welcome, Jarrett, a.

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Speaker 4: Fool on April Fool's Day with you, right A great

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Speaker 4: to see you.

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Speaker 2: Great to have you. So, body, why don't we get

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Speaker 2: into it. Let's let's get into the Hawaii case. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: let's do it.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there was some pretty harrowing testimony today that

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Speaker 5: we have done. All right, So if you guys are

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Speaker 5: familiar with this case, his name is the defendant is

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Speaker 5: Gernhard Koning Okay, and he's a forty seven year old

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Speaker 5: anthesiologist and he's been charged with second degree attempted murder

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Speaker 5: for the March twenty fourth, twenty twenty five, assault of

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Speaker 5: his wife Ariel Okay. They went on a hike. Prosecutors

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Speaker 5: say that he tried to push his wife toward a cliff,

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Speaker 5: attempted to use a syringe of some unknown substance on her,

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Speaker 5: and then repeatedly struck her in the head with a rock. Thankfully, Ariel,

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Speaker 5: his wife survived. She later filed for divorce, obviously and

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Speaker 5: obtaining custody of their children. So testimony yesterday in the trial,

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Speaker 5: Gernhart revealed that his son me received two FaceTime calls

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Speaker 5: from him on the day of the attack. The son, Emil,

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Speaker 5: testified that the in these FaceTime calls with his father,

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Speaker 5: the antithesiologist, Gernhart confessed to try and killing his wife Ariel,

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Speaker 5: and also threatened to take his own life. The testimony

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Speaker 5: yesterday from it was March thirty. First, he's only nineteen

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Speaker 5: years old, a son, and he testified he was at

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Speaker 5: home on Maui when I received a FaceTime call at

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Speaker 5: like ten forty two in the morning from his dad,

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Speaker 5: who who referred to you know throughout the testimony as

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Speaker 5: the defendant. It was very like that tells you like,

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Speaker 5: he's not saying my dad called me. He's not saying

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Speaker 5: I talked to my dad. He's not saying my dad

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Speaker 5: said this. He's saying, the defendant said these things, and

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Speaker 5: I thought that was very sort of telling on how

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Speaker 5: he feels about everything. We have an audio clip of this,

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Speaker 5: and I want to I want to play it, So

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Speaker 5: let's get that going.

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Speaker 6: Where were you when you got the FaceTime video call

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Speaker 6: at ten forty two am at home?

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Speaker 2: What did the defendant tell you during that call? As

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Speaker 2: close to word for word as you can remember.

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Speaker 6: That he would not be making it back to Maui

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Speaker 6: and to take good care of the younger kids, and

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Speaker 6: that he had that airy my stepmom had been cheating

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Speaker 6: on him, and that he tried to kill her.

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Speaker 2: Did he tell you what happened to Ariel?

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Speaker 6: He had not.

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Speaker 4: Did he tell you where she went?

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Speaker 2: No? Did the defendant tell you why he tried to

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Speaker 2: kill Ariel?

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Speaker 6: No?

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Speaker 3: During that call?

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Speaker 6: The next plan that he said was to jump.

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Speaker 2: Off the cliff.

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Speaker 6: How did you react to hearing that told him not to?

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Speaker 2: Is there any doubt in your mind about the defendant

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Speaker 2: telling you who tried to kill Ariel?

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 2: Wow?

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Speaker 5: Can you imagine having to testify against your own father

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Speaker 5: and then referring to him as the defendant the entire time?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is unbelievable and Jared, I have to ask, so,

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Speaker 2: as a prosecutor, what is it like prepping family members

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Speaker 2: if they're on the stand, Like, what's your reaction both

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Speaker 2: to Emil in this case and also just context from

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Speaker 2: a prosecutor.

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Speaker 7: Well, it adds a level of difficulty and emotion, as

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Speaker 7: you can imagine.

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Speaker 4: I've had to do it where family members.

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Speaker 7: We had murders within a family where other members of

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Speaker 7: the family, particularly children, witnessed the killing and then had

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Speaker 7: to testify against a parent in a very similar situation.

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Speaker 7: So that is extraordinarily difficult. Now him referring to his

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Speaker 7: father as the defendant, Okay, he's kind of taking himself

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Speaker 7: out of the situation, making it a little bit more

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Speaker 7: of a laboratory condition. I would discourage that. I would say,

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Speaker 7: look him, I'll call him your dad. To me, that

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Speaker 7: adds to the credibility of what he's saying. He's not

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Speaker 7: disavowing him as his father. He recognizes Gerhard is his dad,

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Speaker 7: but this is a horrible thing. His dad brought him

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Speaker 7: into this. He didn't call his father. His father called him.

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Speaker 7: That's an important point of this.

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Speaker 5: Too, right, And after that call, Emil went to his

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Speaker 5: grandparents home to report what had happened, like because he

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Speaker 5: had blood on his shirt. The dad had like blood.

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Speaker 5: I mean, he was convinced that this was real, Like

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Speaker 5: he didn't think his dad was joking around or you know,

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Speaker 5: aything like that.

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 5: He went to his grandparents' home to report what had happened,

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Speaker 5: and then around eleven forty five am, he called again

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Speaker 5: and asked if Emil had told anybody, and you know,

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Speaker 5: again repeated that he was going to jump, but it

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Speaker 5: was like an it was almost to the exact minute

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Speaker 5: an hour later, and of course he hadn't jumped or

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Speaker 5: anything like that. The defendant Hoeing said that he had

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Speaker 5: thought about suicide in the months leading up to the

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Speaker 5: hike and told his son, I'm at the end of

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Speaker 5: my rope, ending the call with I'm going to go

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Speaker 5: before the police catch me.

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Speaker 7: Now.

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Speaker 5: Another person that testified was the victim's mother, Judith masked,

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Speaker 5: and she testified that Emil the victim, I'm sorry the

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Speaker 5: sun arrived at their home visibly shaking and crying. Right,

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Speaker 5: this is the grandparents' home that he went to, and Judith,

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Speaker 5: the grandmother, attempted to contact Ariel the victim, and tracked

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Speaker 5: her phone to the trail, and at eleven thirty three,

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Speaker 5: she texted the defendant and said is Ariel okay, and

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Speaker 5: he did not respond. Instead, he called his son again

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Speaker 5: at eleven forty five. You know a few minutes later, Courtney.

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Speaker 2: Oh Man, if you're just joining us, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: the case of gerhart Koning. He's the anesthesiologist in Hawaii.

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Speaker 2: He charged with second degree attempted murder for trying to

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Speaker 2: kill his wife on a cliff in Hawaii. We'd love

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Speaker 2: to hear from you. Always give us a call. Eighty

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Speaker 2: to eighty three to one crime Jared, I mean that

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Speaker 2: sounds like a confession to me, that the sun is relaying.

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Speaker 2: So tell us how does that play in a chord?

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Speaker 2: Why isn't it kind of a shuckcase?

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Speaker 4: It's huge?

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Speaker 7: I mean, that is absolutely a confession. So let's break

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Speaker 7: down what body said about exactly what happened. Number one,

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Speaker 7: he said he's going to kill himself. Okay, So this

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Speaker 7: is here's ready for some lawyer words. There are indicia

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Speaker 7: of reliability in that statement. We know where he is,

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Speaker 7: we know what he's saying, he's done, and he's talking

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Speaker 7: to his son. He's running from the cops. So you

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Speaker 7: have flight. He doesn't want to get caught, and he's

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Speaker 7: about to kill himself in his mind. There is a

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Speaker 7: concept where you don't want to die with a lie

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Speaker 7: on your lips. Right, So there's inditionar reliability of what

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Speaker 7: he's saying to his son. He's saying, I'm going to die.

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Speaker 7: This is what happened. I did this. He's coming clean

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Speaker 7: with his son. It's not coerced his defense in this.

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Speaker 7: They have telegraphed a self defense claim. He didn't say

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Speaker 7: I was attacked by Ariel. He said I tried to

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Speaker 7: kill her, and then he said why. He never said, wow,

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Speaker 7: she attacked me.

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Speaker 4: I ran away.

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Speaker 7: That buries him and his son has no reason to

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Speaker 7: come in there and point the finger. And then when

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Speaker 7: you add that mom, the mother in law was looking

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Speaker 7: for Ariel tried to contact Gerhardt in the moments before

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Speaker 7: the second call.

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Speaker 4: And what does he say. He says, did you tell anyone?

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Speaker 7: Because he knows now it's out, there's a third party

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Speaker 7: aware he's still alive in those times.

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Speaker 4: So there's all this stuff. It's huge. It's more powerful

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Speaker 4: than a confession to a police officer.

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Speaker 2: Does it? So it holds are you saying from the

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Speaker 2: jury's point of view or legally, or it's.

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Speaker 7: Just so real and raw that you just it has

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Speaker 7: that indishet of truth.

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Speaker 4: And I would be saying, like, think about this.

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Speaker 7: He drug his son into this situation, not to come

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Speaker 7: up with some scheme to come clean.

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Speaker 4: With him, to telling him what happened like that is huge.

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Speaker 7: It's different than sitting across from a trained officer who

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Speaker 7: is eliciting a confession. He gave this up. His son

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Speaker 7: wasn't interrogating him, he was listening. And the demeanor, the

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Speaker 7: demeanor of Emil is very, very calm. He's articulate and pointed,

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Speaker 7: and all of that just adds to the credibility of this.

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Speaker 4: It buries him. It's not good.

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Speaker 7: It's certainly not good for Garart. This is a huge

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Speaker 7: piece of evidence.

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Speaker 5: Well another thing, I'm sorry, please don't them.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, I was just going to ask Jared a

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Speaker 3: really quick question. The Gerhard is supposed to be testifying

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Speaker 3: or potentially tomorrow. I think we're not sure. But if

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Speaker 3: you were his attorney, would you lean towards having him

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Speaker 3: testify or do you think that's too risky or not.

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Speaker 7: Ultimately, it's so my experience with the anesthesiologists of the world.

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Speaker 7: They know everything, right, so they're gonna be giving. He's

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Speaker 7: gonna decide, Okay, that's number one, and it is sity. Okay,

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Speaker 7: that's not a slighted anesthesiologist. They're pretty sharp people, but

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Speaker 7: they're in charge of their world, so they don't like

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Speaker 7: to take advice from a lot of people. The decision

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Speaker 7: is his, his only. It was she and he on

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Speaker 7: that mountain, right, So the only way to get his

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Speaker 7: version in at this point is he's got to get

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Speaker 7: on the stand. Okay, he has the right to remain silent.

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Speaker 7: But coupled with that call and the fact that Ariel

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Speaker 7: lived to tell the tales, she testified too already, So

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Speaker 7: now it's their testimony, the physical evidence against what Gerhart's

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Speaker 7: going to get up there and try to say, which

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Speaker 7: is going to fly in the face of what he

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Speaker 7: told his son that day.

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Speaker 5: Another thing that happened yesterday was that one of the

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Speaker 5: detectives testify, Detective Thomas EuMA. He's a digital forensics examiner

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Speaker 5: from the Honolulu Police Department, and he testified that the

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Speaker 5: defendant his device is revealed repeated searches that included the

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Speaker 5: keywords danger, death, fall, kill Die Cliff, and I I

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Speaker 5: kind of wonder was he searching for places that people

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Speaker 5: could fall, like on a hike, oh, in the area,

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Speaker 5: do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 7: Like? I think the other thing is when you have

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Speaker 7: an attempted murder, And we talked a little bit about

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Speaker 7: this last week.

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Speaker 4: Attempted murders are particularly tough to prove. You got to

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Speaker 4: show murder was your desire, that was your intention.

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Speaker 7: So when he tells his son I was trying to

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Speaker 7: kill her number one, he says it that's huge. And

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Speaker 7: then his searches involve killing and death right, not assault.

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Speaker 7: So I would be why, for whatever reason he was

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Speaker 7: making these searches, That's what was on his mind, and

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Speaker 7: that's what he was looking for answers and guidance on

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Speaker 7: I would say he is looking on Reddit for versions

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Speaker 7: of people that have fallen to their death. What was said,

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Speaker 7: What were the surrounding circumstances, That's what.

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Speaker 5: It looks like to me, What did the injuries maybe

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Speaker 5: look like? Things like that.

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Speaker 2: And then also we've since we've seen you last, we

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Speaker 2: talked about two of their people who testified. I believe

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Speaker 2: both of them did. It's the two women who came

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Speaker 2: upon Gerhart allegedly beating Ariela with the rock. We have

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Speaker 2: the nine on one call and they relayed their experience,

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Speaker 2: which was vivid. How much weight does that? I mean,

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Speaker 2: all of this seems like slam dungs, But what does

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Speaker 2: that do to people who have but, you know, no

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Speaker 2: beef with anybody saying, here's what happened. We're just taking

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Speaker 2: a hike.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you said it. No beef and no skin in

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Speaker 4: the game.

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Speaker 7: They are unbiased, independent, third party, and there's not one,

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Speaker 7: there's two. They're slammer witnesses. I mean, they're huge, and

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Speaker 7: that is important. They come upon them in this mountain

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Speaker 7: side and there's this assault happening. It coincides with the injuries.

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Speaker 7: It coincides.

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Speaker 4: So when you.

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Speaker 7: Wrap this all together, you would say Gerhardt said it,

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Speaker 7: Aeriels said it. The two witnesses said it. It's supported

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Speaker 7: by the medical evidence. He's done, in my opinion, is done.

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Speaker 2: I agree. I agree.

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Speaker 5: There is one thing that I want to repeat that

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Speaker 5: the victim said that her husband said, right, you know,

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Speaker 5: during this attack, she recounted him saying nobody is coming

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Speaker 5: to save you, and described screaming. She described screaming for

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Speaker 5: help into those two witnesses came upon them, and I

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Speaker 5: think that is so telling in this case. Nobody's coming

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Speaker 5: to save you. He knew it was a remote location.

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Speaker 5: I think that also shows intent to murder. Right, Nobody's

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Speaker 5: going to save you. Nobody's coming. I've thought about this,

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Speaker 5: I've got everything worked out. I know exactly what's going

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Speaker 5: to happen. And I think that's really going to play

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Speaker 5: too with the I mean, there's so many bricks in

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Speaker 5: the wall of guilt here. I think he's going to

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Speaker 5: get convicted. But listen, stick around. We have a very

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Speaker 5: disturbing school trip case that raises major legal questions. Why

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Speaker 5: is a team being charged an adult but not with

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Speaker 5: sexual assault? Attorney Jarrett Farantino sticks around to unpack it all.

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Speaker 2: Keep it Rightular True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we

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Speaker 5: talk true I'm all the time, I'm body movin and

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Speaker 5: I am so lucky to be here with my bud

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Speaker 5: Courtney Armstrong and producer Taha House and the legal prowess

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Speaker 5: of Jarrett Farantino. He is joining us tonight. I'm so

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Speaker 5: excited and Adam in the control room. Later in the show,

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Speaker 5: we're gonna be We're gonna be answering some legal questions

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Speaker 5: on cases including one of my you know, special interests,

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Speaker 5: the Long Island serial Killer. Plus we're gonna be unpacking

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Speaker 5: and discussing the harrowing documentary the Alabama Solution for our

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Speaker 5: true crime and chill segment and listen, this is a

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Speaker 5: really important discussion, So we hope that you stick around

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Speaker 5: and join us for it. But first, Courtney, you have

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Speaker 5: a story out of Vegas. Actually right, What's what's going on?

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Speaker 2: I do, and I want to give a bit of

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Speaker 2: a trigger warning for this one. It includes some sexual

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Speaker 2: assault mentions. So if you have children or don't want

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Speaker 2: to hear about this case, this is your warning. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So in Vegas, there's a four teen year old student

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Speaker 2: from the Alexander Dawson School, which I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you're familiar with it, body, I have friends in Vegas

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Speaker 2: and it's a very sort of tony school, elite, costly prestigious.

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Speaker 2: So fourteen year old student from the Alexander Dawson School

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Speaker 2: was allegedly assaulted multiple times and it was by a classmate.

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Speaker 2: This happened on a school trip to Costa Rica in

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Speaker 2: April of last year, prosecutors have charged two fifteen year

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Speaker 2: old alleged assailants and they're charging them as adults. And

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Speaker 2: what they're doing is building the case around alleged distribution

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Speaker 2: of video recordings of the assault. Oh no, that's right.

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Speaker 2: So again the thing, it's alleged that they went to

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Speaker 2: Costa Rica and multiple boys assaulted this one fourteen year

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Speaker 2: old video taped it. My goodness, and so that's it's

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Speaker 2: part of illegal questions that I definitely want to ask

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Speaker 2: Jared about, is you know why particularly are the files.

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Speaker 2: Excuse me, they're being charged with the videos rather than

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Speaker 2: the assault. So a Nevada judge they've allowed the felony

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Speaker 2: proceedings against one of the defendants, Von Griffin, to move forward.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting because there's an active appeal to have

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Speaker 2: his transfer back to juvenile. So the defense is arguing

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Speaker 2: kind of rabidly, which you know is their job, so

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Speaker 2: share it.

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Speaker 5: So he's being accused of basically not only doing the assault,

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Speaker 5: but sharing sexual abuse material.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, he okay, he is not being charged in

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Speaker 2: the Nevada courts with assault. The defendants, he is not.

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Speaker 2: They are being charged with alleged distribution of video recordings

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Speaker 2: of the assault. OK, thank you, Yeah, it's so Jared.

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Speaker 2: What what do we make.

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Speaker 7: Well, there's a lot here, as usual with the cases

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Speaker 7: we tackle, right, but this particular one. Let's talk first

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Speaker 7: about the fact that this defendant has been deemed an

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Speaker 7: adult in the adult court system. This is a crime

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Speaker 7: that was committed when he was in eighth grade. He's

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Speaker 7: a freshman in high school, and the judge has made

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Speaker 7: a determination that the crime, which you're right, Courtney, the

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Speaker 7: crime that he's facing is see SAM, which is possession

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Speaker 7: of child sexual materials. And because the assault occurred in

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Speaker 7: Costa Rica, the body of that offense is in another country.

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Speaker 7: It's not the crime he committed here was retaining, possessing

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Speaker 7: and distributing that c SAM material on his Snapchat, which

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Speaker 7: was a video recording of an assault.

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Speaker 4: There were several videos that have been described in the material.

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Speaker 4: So that's the crime he's charged with. And the fact

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Speaker 4: that he's charged as an adult. Here are the things

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Speaker 4: that the judge looked at. This is an individual who

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Speaker 4: was the president of his class, a golf champion, but.

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Speaker 7: The judge concluded he is not amenable to juvenile rehabilitation.

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Speaker 7: She said, basically, if we put this child or this

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Speaker 7: defendant in the juvenile system, his crimes will not be

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Speaker 7: properly atoned for and he will not be rehabilitated. He

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Speaker 7: belongs in the adult system. That's the conclusion she reached

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Speaker 7: based on the nature of the crime and a psychological

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Speaker 7: evaluation of the defendant.

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Speaker 5: Can I ask a really dumb question, is he not

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Speaker 5: being charged with sexual assault because it happened in Costa Rica?

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Speaker 2: That's why, Okay, I just wanted to make.

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Speaker 7: Sure one hundred percent, And that's that's the question I

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Speaker 7: think that a lot of people have.

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Speaker 4: It's like, wait a minute, we have an assault.

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Speaker 7: But if you understand that crime, it didn't occur there,

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Speaker 7: It didn't occur in Vegas, it occurred in Costa Rica.

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Speaker 7: It's no different than if it occurred in Russia. It

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Speaker 7: can't be brought here very limited circumstances where a crime

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Speaker 7: of that nature, where a crime in another country can

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Speaker 7: be brought here, and it's not in this particular circumstance.

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Speaker 5: And this is also a very dumb question. But is

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Speaker 5: there a world that we live in in which the

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Speaker 5: judge is, you know, and the system is charging him

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Speaker 5: as an adult because they know they can't charge him

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Speaker 5: with the sexual assault, so this is like a punishment

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Speaker 5: maybe fitting of that sexual assault as an adult.

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Speaker 7: It's hard to figure out what goes into the cocktail

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Speaker 7: of that decision.

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Speaker 4: It does not. It's not lost.

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Speaker 7: On me that on that video is a very violent

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Speaker 7: crime committed by the defendant. So yes, I think, how

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Speaker 7: can it not factor.

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Speaker 4: Into the decision?

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Speaker 2: I agree, But the.

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Speaker 7: Fact that that's that is the number one fight for

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Speaker 7: his lawyers. I've had that fight. I've had homicide cases

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Speaker 7: against sixteen year old defendants where they were tried as adults.

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Speaker 7: I've had even younger that have come up through the

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Speaker 7: system and by the time we got to trial, that's

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Speaker 7: the number one fight. That's the big determination. However, I

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Speaker 7: have to say this, it's a horrible crime. What they

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Speaker 7: did was horrible, but this is a very young defendant

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Speaker 7: and who has some good things in his life. That

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Speaker 7: way against the conclusions that the judge has reached. However,

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Speaker 7: appellate courts are very, very unlikely to disturb a decision

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Speaker 7: of a lower court judge like this, because the judge

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Speaker 7: was in the best position to assess this young man.

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Speaker 7: The young man is in front of her, she is

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Speaker 7: confronted with the psychological and psychiatric witnesses. So that's really

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Speaker 7: a tall order to ask to have that overturned. But

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Speaker 7: there's another issue here, if I may, there's an accusation

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Speaker 7: that the judge has a conflict of interest with one

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Speaker 7: of the other defendants, and the defense attorneys for Vaughan

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Speaker 7: are saying, what's good for the goose is good for

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Speaker 7: the gander. If you have a conflict with one of

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Speaker 7: the defendants, you've got a problem with all the defendants

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Speaker 7: on this case. You should not be making the decision

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Speaker 7: the judges or the prosecution, saying the judge revealed that

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Speaker 7: conflict and only became aware of it months after she

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Speaker 7: rendered her decision on Vaughn. So that's another issue that

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Speaker 7: may cause for some additional scrutiny here. But I got

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Speaker 7: to tell you it's very, very hard to overturn a

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Speaker 7: judge's conclusion in that regard.

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Speaker 2: Wow, And then there's a lot here, And so who's

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Speaker 2: is it an appellate court? Because that was I think

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Speaker 2: I understood you. So the judge overseeing this case has said, yes,

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Speaker 2: we are going to proceed with the felony proceedings against them,

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Speaker 2: even though there's the appeal. So is the appeal is

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Speaker 2: going through a different court, the appellates. Is that correct?

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Speaker 7: So you would first ask the judge who made the

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Speaker 7: decision to reconsider her decision, and then you would go

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Speaker 7: up to the bench itself, where you could have an

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Speaker 7: unbanked multiple judges in that jurisdiction, or you would go

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Speaker 7: up to the appellate court in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 4: For a situation like.

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Speaker 7: This, even though the case hasn't gone to trial yet,

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Speaker 7: it is a matter of such importance, they would go

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Speaker 7: right up to an appeal. It's called an interlocutory appeal.

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Speaker 7: Another lawyer word, write it down, but that's what it is.

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Speaker 7: It's basically, while the case is pending, you end up

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Speaker 7: in appellate land to address a very very significant decision

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Speaker 7: that's happened pre trial.

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Speaker 2: Right, Okay, thank you again. This, as you said, it's layered,

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Speaker 2: it's complicated. So what allegedly happened on this school trip

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Speaker 2: to Costa Rica was the victim again, a fourteen year

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Speaker 2: old male student was pinned down and sexually assaulted by

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Speaker 2: at least four classmates on three separate occasions. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to leave it there in terms of details, but this

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Speaker 2: crime is an atrocity, it's dehumanizing what I guess allegedly

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Speaker 2: happened to this fourteen year old child by multiple of

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Speaker 2: the students. And again it was on videos in which

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Speaker 2: the defendants seemed to be having a pretty fun time

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Speaker 2: of it. And this is what the video consists of,

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Speaker 2: which again was on Snapchat, and that is the digital

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00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 2: evidence central to the case. So in a day to

437
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: Vaughan Griffith, there's also dominant Kim, also fifteen years old,

438
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: and he also is being charged, and he is the one.

439
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: Dominic Kim is the one with which the judge had

440
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: a conflict. Actually, I'm going to stop myself there. So

441
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: was ultimately the judge supposed to oversee both Like were

442
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: both of these kids supposed to be on trial at

443
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 2: the same time, and now they'll have to be separate

444
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 2: and with separate judges overseeing their cases.

445
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 7: Not necessarily, but they could be tried together, okay, And

446
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 7: I don't know that decision had been reached yet, So

447
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 7: if the judge had a conflict as to one of

448
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 7: them and one of their lawyers, arguably you can build

449
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 7: you can make that divide that this case would go

450
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 7: in front of the other judge. Okay, it's cleaner if

451
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 7: they all got sent to another judge in my opinion,

452
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 7: So it's entirely it's a matter of how such cases

453
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 7: are handled at that court. So they could be tried together,

454
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 7: they could be separated. It looked like they by the

455
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 7: time they got to court significant amount of time had passed,

456
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 7: so I would think they weren't being tried together. They

457
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 7: were being handled separately. And it sounds like their roles

458
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 7: on the recordings, for whatever it's worth, were different as well.

459
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 7: Where they're saying Vaughn was actually filming the video what

460
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 7: Dominic Kim was doing wasn't entirely clear, at least in

461
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 7: the in the paperwork that I reviewed.

462
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 4: For Vaughan's case.

463
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 5: M I guess the case that I'm sorry, the conflict

464
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 5: is tied to civil attorneys for the victim. There's some

465
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 5: sort of conflict there. I don't quite know what it is.

466
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 5: But the co defendant, Dominic Kim, his case has been reassigned,

467
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 5: so I think there is going to be a different

468
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 5: judge for them.

469
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 7: I don't know, And again I think the timing. Look,

470
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 7: when you practice law in a community, you're going to

471
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 7: have conflicts like crazy I mean, it just happens. I

472
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 7: practice in a medium sized community. I know ninety nine

473
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 7: percent of the lawyers in our bar association. I have

474
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 7: cases with them, I have cases against them, I've worked

475
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 7: with them, and our judges were former colleagues of mine.

476
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 7: So it's hard when you're dealing with cases to not

477
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 7: find yourself in these conflict situations. The key here, though,

478
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 7: even if the judges ultimately removed from von Griffith's case,

479
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 7: at the time of her decision, she was not aware

480
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 7: of a conflict of interest and it in no way

481
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 7: factored into her decision and whether or not to make

482
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 7: or to deem him an adult.

483
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: That's really the issue understood. So investigators are linking the

484
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: defendant Von Griffith to a Snapchat account the name is

485
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: Vaughn is Sexy, and that is where the video is

486
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: allegedly stored, supporting the charge of possession of child sexual

487
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: abuse material, which I didn't know this. Under Nevada law,

488
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: it does not require proof that the material was viewed. So, Jared,

489
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: does that mean, in the horrible imaginary situation that somebody

490
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: sent me child sexual abuse material that I could be

491
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 2: charged for having it on my phone? Even though I

492
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: never viewed it, asked for it, or looked for it.

493
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 7: Well, arguably yes, but you have to look at the

494
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 7: context of these situations. If someone is catfished or sent

495
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 7: a phishing email with those materials and immediately reports it,

496
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 7: that's a different situation. This particular video was retained and possessed,

497
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 7: whether it was viewed or not, there were actual, purposeful,

498
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 7: intentional acts to possess that video and save it on

499
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 7: the Snapchat. That's so viewing it is only part of it.

500
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 7: Possession is they say, is nine tenths of the law.

501
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 7: In this case, it was retained on that account. One

502
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 7: thing about kids, they know how to work Snapchat, they

503
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 7: know what's retained on Snapchat. So I think the theory

504
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 7: is that Griffiths retained it. It sounds like Kim may

505
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 7: have retained it as well, maybe he was tagged and

506
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 7: saved its something along those lines.

507
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: Well. Also, Dominic Kim, the defendant, he's accused of sharing

508
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: the video with other miners, including you know, miners at

509
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 2: a different private school, and just again, dehumanizing is all

510
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: that comes to mind for this humiliating, horrible things they did,

511
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: and that is forming the basis of the distribution related

512
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: allegations against Kim.

513
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 4: Very serious charge. You can imagine.

514
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 5: That makes a lot of sense to me. Is anybody's

515
00:30:54,040 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 5: doing the school I still there'll ye, I'm sure it's

516
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 5: coming right.

517
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 4: Like it's a failure to supervise while they were on

518
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 4: this trip.

519
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 7: I'm sure if anybody's out there listening after a theory

520
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 7: that is likely to be pursued, whether or not they're

521
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 7: liable or add sufficient supervision, who knows. But what the

522
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 7: eighth graders are going to Costa Rica? I gotta tell

523
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 7: you my eighth creator's not going to Costa Rica without

524
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 7: rich Ones.

525
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: I guess right. And later in the show, we're going

526
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 2: to be talking about the Oscar nominated documentary The Alabama Solution.

527
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: There's a ton to dig into on that case, but

528
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: for now we are going to turn the air over

529
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: to you and hear your talkbacks. Let's go.

530
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 8: Hey, guys, So I was watching the Murdoch Murders Made

531
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 8: for a TV series thing, and I was thinking about

532
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 8: how Paul got away with so much stuff because he

533
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 8: was from a prominent family. Me and me start thinking

534
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 8: about that Jesse Butler kid, who clearly got away with

535
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 8: even more crap because again, he's got a rich family

536
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 8: and rich ties. So the judge was seeing the other

537
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 8: day that when they turn a tea doesn't necessarily mean

538
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 8: the records get explunged. If he messes up after he

539
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 8: turns eighteen, does he have to serve any of that sentence?

540
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 8: Emily North of Boston, Oh.

541
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: Good question. That's a great question, Emily, if if you're

542
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: not a conversion. In the Jesse Butler case, he's a

543
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: former high school baseball player from Oklahoma. He was accused

544
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: by two teenage girls of repeated and violent sexual assaults

545
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: multiple and after a six month investigation, Butler was arrested.

546
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: He was still a minor. He pleaded no contest and

547
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: was granted youthful offender status. But get this, when he

548
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: was eighteen. Butler was sentenced to community service and outpatient counseling.

549
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 2: Although he originally faced up to seventy eight years in prison,

550
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: he did not serve any time, and the judge just

551
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: said his criminal record will be expunged if he fully

552
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: complies with you know, taking a class or two. So, Jared,

553
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: what goes on when you turn eighteen? Yeah? You does

554
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 2: the sensing get gone? Yeah?

555
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 4: In Oklahoma?

556
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 7: Not necessarily the court can retain jurisdiction over you for

557
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 7: another year, so the year you turned eighteen through your nineteen.

558
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: Oh, you know, we're having a little bit.

559
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: I think we might have Adam.

560
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: Adam is going to sort out that. But Jared back here, Okay,

561
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: you can hear me.

562
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 7: Yes. So in Oklahoma they would retain some jurisdiction over

563
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 7: Butler's case for at least a year. He was enrolled

564
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 7: in this youthful offender program, so if he messes up

565
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 7: up until the time he's nineteen, the court can bring

566
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 7: those charges back and he would face consequences again for

567
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 7: those charges. So he's on a short leash for a

568
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 7: short amount of time, not nearly enough.

569
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 5: If you ask me, he's the kid if you if

570
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 5: you're if you don't remember, he's the kid that were

571
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 5: the adult. I guess that the body cam footage was

572
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,479
Speaker 5: released and he was standing outside, like on the front

573
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 5: porch with his mommy, and she was saying thing I

574
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 5: think if I recall correctly, she was like, don't worry,

575
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 5: I'm gonna come get you. I'll bring you a sandwich

576
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 5: or something along those lines, and he was like okay.

577
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 5: And he was treated with kid gloves and that caused

578
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 5: a lot about rage at the time.

579
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 7: Just think back to the case we were just discussing

580
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 7: in Vegas. This is Butler is older than those individuals.

581
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,479
Speaker 7: He is charged with the assaults of young women, and

582
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 7: he actually committed those crimes in that jurisdiction, and he's

583
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 7: going to remain in juvenile court. And these young younger

584
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 7: children will not remain in juvenile court for possessing child

585
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 7: sexual abuse materials. So a video of them doing an assault.

586
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 7: So look at how different cases can be handled. And

587
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 7: Butler's family, not unlike the group that family are very

588
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 7: influential in the system.

589
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 4: Again too.

590
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, and he pled no contest, I mean he did this, Yes,

591
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 5: he did this.

592
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 2: He I mean it was assault. It was battery by strangulation.

593
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: Victims were left unconscious, multiple counts of rape against two miners.

594
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 2: And even though he could have been facing seventy eight

595
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: years in prison, he doesn't go one day. How does

596
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: this happen? I mean, I'm so full of rage right now.

597
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: It's crazy too. I have a dumb question.

598
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 5: If he's twenty three, let's say, let's say he finishes

599
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 5: the program. He doesn't have any tarnishes. His record is

600
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 5: expunged all the things, right, and he's twenty six and

601
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 5: he is accused of sexual battery or something along those lines, there's,

602
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 5: you know, proficient evidence to convict him, DNA. Whatever is

603
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 5: his previous history on his record or is it literally

604
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 5: wiped clean? Like can the judge see it and use

605
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,959
Speaker 5: that for sentencing or anything like that.

606
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 7: I believe he can so, But you said the magic word, okay. Unfortunately,

607
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 7: for that to happen, this is a graduated situation where

608
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 7: you have to commit a similar crime again. Okay, if

609
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 7: he robbed a bank, the fact that he sexually assaulted

610
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 7: someone when he was younger may not be considered. But

611
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 7: if he continues to commit similar crimes, certainly in his

612
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 7: psychiatric background, it will come up. The court can consider

613
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 7: this is someone who they tried to address through the

614
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 7: youthful offender program failed.

615
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 4: That would absolutely have to be.

616
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 7: Considered in anything the judge is doing and meeting out

617
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 7: a sentence in an adult crime.

618
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 4: So yes, it would.

619
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 7: Unfortunately that would mean someone else is a victim of

620
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 7: Butler of course.

621
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: Of course, So back very briefly to Emily's talkback question. Specifically,

622
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 2: if something happens again, you know when Butler is twenty

623
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 2: three or whatever, he does, he have to serve any

624
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: of the sentence he could have faced for this crime.

625
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: That was her question.

626
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 7: Not beyond not beyond the I don't think so beyond

627
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 7: the age of nineteen.

628
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 4: I think once he gets.

629
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 7: Beyond that, the only time that could factor in is

630
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 7: if he commits a similar crime and it's just an

631
00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 7: aggravator and facing that sentence. So there is there is

632
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 7: a breaking point. Unfortunately, I think it would be a

633
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 7: year after he's eighteen, I believe.

634
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 9: Well, let's go to another talkback question for Jared. Now,

635
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 9: the Long Island serial killer does plead guilty. What does

636
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 9: that tell you is his strategy?

637
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 3: Like, what's the point?

638
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 9: Is this about avoiding trow or contributing what evidence comes out?

639
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: Help a girl out? Really good question.

640
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 5: And for those who aren't familiar with the Long Island

641
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 5: serial killer, his name is Rex Hureerman. We call him

642
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 5: the LISP. That stands for a Long Island serial killer.

643
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 5: So if I say LISP, that's what I'm talking about.

644
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 5: And he's an architect from Long Island and he's accused

645
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 5: of carrying out the Gilgo Beach serial killings and it's

646
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 5: come out through some of the victims' families that they

647
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 5: got basically contacted by the DA that there might be

648
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 5: a plea with rex Hureerman, who might guilty. This is

649
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 5: a really dramatic turn in a case that really began

650
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 5: with the discovery of multiple bodies along this desolate stretch

651
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 5: of Ocean Parkway in Long Island. And for years, this

652
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 5: went on for decades, y'all. For years, these killings remained unsolved,

653
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 5: and it fueled a lot of fear and speculation about

654
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 5: a serial predator targeting vulnerable women. The accused rex Huerman.

655
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 5: He was arrested in the summer of twenty twenty three

656
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 5: and charged in a series of murders tied to victims

657
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 5: who vanished after meeting clients.

658
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: And up until now he's.

659
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 5: Denied everything, even though listen, he has filed motion after

660
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 5: motion after motion after motion to have this evidence excluded,

661
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 5: this evidence excluded, this DNA testing isn't approved in the

662
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 5: state of New York. You got to excl exclude, excluded,

663
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 5: and everything has been denied by the judge. And I

664
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 5: think at this point his lawyers are like, listen, we

665
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 5: ain't got nothing else. We're gonna have to go to trial,

666
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 5: and apparently now the victims' families are being contacted saying

667
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 5: he might plea So, Jared, what do you think that

668
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 5: that says? From like the legal strategy standpoint? You know,

669
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 5: Lisa or caller. I think she's actually from Pennsylvania. By

670
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 5: the way, Lisa, she doesn't tell you that he's.

671
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 4: Trying to get inside the head of Rex.

672
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: Right, So that's a scary place to be, right.

673
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 7: Let's go there for a moment for the limited purpose

674
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 7: of assessing his intentions. Here, I think you said it, Boddie, right,

675
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 7: all he's got nothing but bad news, not unlike Brian

676
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 7: Colberger when the DNA evidence decision didn't go his way

677
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 7: when everything was coming in. You're left with nothing but

678
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 7: the truth at that point, and you have to have

679
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 7: this come to Jesus moment with yourself and your lawyers,

680
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 7: who say, look, all the strategy we've tried hasn't worked, Rex,

681
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 7: Are we really going to put these families through this?

682
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 7: Here's the other thing, though, beyond the legal component to this,

683
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 7: Yurerman's family has somewhat stood by him through this. Right,

684
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 7: they've stood by him while he's pled not guilty, not

685
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 7: unlike Coberger. If there was a conversation between Huerman and

686
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 7: his wife or his children, for example, and they're saying, Dad,

687
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 7: just plead, don't put us through this, will work through it.

688
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 7: That may be, and I've seen that's at that point

689
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 7: you're holding on to whatever part of your life you

690
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 7: could maintain. His lawyers, his family could be weighing on him.

691
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 7: If he sees some light at the end of the tunnel,

692
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 7: that being a relationship with his family going forward, that

693
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 7: may compel him to plead too.

694
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 5: I'm going to go out on a limb here, just

695
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:46,240
Speaker 5: very quickly.

696
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 4: So.

697
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 5: One of the things that we've recently learned in one

698
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 5: of the filings from it was a response to the

699
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 5: defense that the state made, is that Rex was googling

700
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 5: the victims' family members as they were grieving, and he

701
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 5: was looking at photos of them and you know, news

702
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 5: articles or whatnot. I think he liked it. I think

703
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 5: he liked to seeing them suffer. And so I don't

704
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 5: think that his strategy is going to be to help

705
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 5: the families. I think he's I think one of the

706
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 5: things that one of the things that Ted Bundy did

707
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 5: was he defended himself. He was pro se and he

708
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 5: questioned one of the police officers on the stand, and

709
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 5: he asked the police officer to describe the scene in detail, right,

710
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 5: because he got off on it, right. And I think

711
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 5: Rex kind of has that similar situation with suffering, and

712
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 5: so I listen, this is just my opinion. Please, don't

713
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 5: you know, take it for anything. But I think Rex

714
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 5: would enjoy seeing the family members, like you know, sobbing

715
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 5: and whatnot over testimony. So I don't think him avoid

716
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 5: you know, helping the family out, is you know, a

717
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 5: talking point for him, but his family, Like you said, Jared,

718
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 5: I think I think that would definitely be something that

719
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 5: he would consider in a plea. So I think you're

720
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 5: probably spot on, jareded. I think it's it's going to be.

721
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 7: Like what you're saying, it's right, and he's looking to

722
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 7: torture people even more.

723
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 4: He'd flirt with the notion of a plea. He put

724
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 4: the whiff of it.

725
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 7: Out there, and he has the right to pull it

726
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 7: at the last minute too.

727
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 4: And this guy.

728
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 7: One thing about Humorman, even if you watch that old

729
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 7: YouTube interview with him, that architecture interview. Oh yes, guy's

730
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 7: got a big ego, right. He loves to be he's

731
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 7: in charge large and in charge. Right, So that is

732
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 7: also so I'll believe it when I see it. I

733
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 7: hope it resolves. You know, I'm a trial attorney. I

734
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 7: love to try cases, but any day of the week

735
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 7: I would take a deal that is the right deal

736
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 7: to avoid the risk of.

737
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 4: Going to trial.

738
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 7: I used to say, you want to gamble, go to

739
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 7: Bally's right, don't.

740
00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 4: Come to the courthouse. Take a sure thing. Balan.

741
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

742
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 5: One other thing too, with with Rex, I think you

743
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 5: might be spot on. I think, listen, there is no

744
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 5: death penalty in New York. That's not like a bargaining

745
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 5: chip here, right, So him just not him. Pleaing really

746
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 5: doesn't really do anything but avoid that trial and spare

747
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 5: the victims' families, the taxpayers, his own family, et cetera,

748
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 5: et cetera. So Jared, I didn't think about that, pulling

749
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 5: the plea. I think that, listen. I'm not going to

750
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 5: believe anything until it's done and in writing, right, and

751
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 5: we see him, and hopefully they'll have to elocute.

752
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, we'll have to see about that.

753
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 5: Can you force elocution?

754
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 7: Uh no, you can ask for it, but you'd be

755
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 7: foolish to well, in federal court they used to make

756
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 7: they make people allocute in their factual recitation of the events.

757
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 7: But oftentimes, like in Stakehoere, you can read the affidavit

758
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 7: and say is that a fair rendering of what you did?

759
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 7: And they just say yes. So there's not really an

760
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 7: affirmative elocution. But I'm certainly familiar with federal cases where

761
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 7: they would make people alocute. So in New York state

762
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 7: court you can't force it. You could make it a

763
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 7: term of your deal if you're the DA and you

764
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 7: really want it. But to me, when you have rex

765
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 7: Uermann saying he's gonna stand up in front of the

766
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 7: judge and accept responsibility, I I'd love to hear him

767
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 7: admit it and allocute and tell the you know, the

768
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 7: stories and the details to lock that plea. And even further,

769
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 7: you take what you can get in a situation like that,

770
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 7: because the adults could.

771
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 5: For these families, it's a conviction on seven murders. That's

772
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 5: a win for the state in every way you look

773
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 5: at it, whether they have an elocution or not. Now

774
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 5: it probably would be beneficial for the families and peace

775
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 5: of mind, and you know, all those lovely things that

776
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 5: everybody wants. It ties a ribbon around it. But we

777
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 5: often don't get that in cases, do we Sometimes.

778
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 7: Family it's like, I don't know what you're looking for

779
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 7: for this guy to tell you to make you feel

780
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 7: a certain way, but.

781
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 4: He's a soulless.

782
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 7: Person and it's not there, and it's not worth blowing

783
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 7: the plea up over.

784
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 5: Man. I don't know, you know, I just think that

785
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 5: the DNA there's too there's a lot of evidence that

786
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 5: they found against Rex, and I think that all those

787
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 5: emotions being denied, Just like you said, with Coberger, one

788
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 5: thing after another, it's again, it's another brick tumbling in

789
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 5: the wall of his defense. So yeah, we'll have to

790
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 5: see and we're expected to hear something in about a month,

791
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 5: so stay tuned for that.

792
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 2: Stay tuned indeed. And also at the top of the hour,

793
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 2: we have everything from the Dugger case to the menandas

794
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: brothers and actually some questions for Jared from producer Ava

795
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: and yeah, it's talk back time with Attorney Jarrett Farentino.

796
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you. Ask Jarrett your own question.

797
00:46:54,360 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: Eight at eight three one Crime, True Crime Tonight.

798
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 5: Welcome back to your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, We're talking

799
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 5: to your Crime all the time. I'm body move in

800
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 5: and I'm here with producer Courtney Armstrong and producer Taha Howe,

801
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 5: and we are very lucky to be joined by Attorney

802
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 5: Jarrett Farantina, who is lending us his legal mind and

803
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 5: making us feel all a lot smarter when it comes

804
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 5: to these cases and trying to figure out what these

805
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 5: legal documents all mean because none of us know what's

806
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 5: going on, right, so he really kind of dumbs it

807
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 5: down for us and makes us feel like we actually

808
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 5: know what we're talking about. So we thank you for that, Jarrett.

809
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 5: But we've got some talkbacks still. You guys have been

810
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 5: you guys have been calling and leaving the talkbacks for Jarrett.

811
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 5: We really appreciate it because you guys are asking some really, really,

812
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 5: really good questions.

813
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 2: So let's go to one right now.

814
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 10: Hi, it's sent you from Canada calling. I'm just wondering

815
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 10: if the police in that shooting of the other officer

816
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 10: were not following protocol because they knew they were the home,

817
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 10: So why didn't they remove her from.

818
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 2: The home and locate the guns?

819
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 10: This could have been totally prevented in my opinion, but

820
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 10: I'm not sure what the protocol is and it's always

821
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 10: different in every police force. Thanks have a good night.

822
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 5: Ah, Cynthia, it's an excellent question. So Kelsey Fitzsimmons, she's

823
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 5: a Massachusetts judge has found a former police officer, Kelsey Fitzsimmons,

824
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 5: not guilty, ruling that prosecutors could not prove that she

825
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 5: pointed a gun at an officer during a twenty twenty

826
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 5: five shooting at her home. And this case dates all

827
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 5: the way back to June of twenty twenty five, when

828
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 5: police went to her house to serve her a restraining

829
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 5: order filed by her fiance. Then this was amid a

830
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 5: rocky relationship and custody dispute. Right she had a four

831
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 5: month year old son with him, and during the encounter,

832
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 5: Officer Patrick Noonan shot Kelsey, claiming she aimed a gun

833
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 5: at him now when he got there. When the police

834
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 5: got there, Kelsey said, they said, where's your weapons. Kelsey said, oh,

835
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 5: they're down in the basement. And she admitted in court

836
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 5: that of course she knew they were upstairs and she

837
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 5: wanted to kill herself, so she lied to the police

838
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 5: and said they're downstairs. Now, would it have been proper

839
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 5: protocol for them to say, exit the home, We're going

840
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 5: to go get your guns, and then we'll re enter

841
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 5: the home. And this would have prevented everything. And I

842
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 5: think what Cynthia is asking is, can if this is

843
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 5: proper protocol? I don't even know if it is. But

844
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 5: if it is proper protocol, why didn't they do it?

845
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 5: Do you know, Jared?

846
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 4: Well, this was a big part of Kelsey's defense. If

847
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 4: you remember she first of all, she was law trained,

848
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 4: as we discussed last week, she did three semesters of

849
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 4: law school. She was really hammering in her testimony that

850
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 4: procedure whether or not officers serving a restraining order are

851
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 4: authorized to enter a home, whether or not there were

852
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 4: guns in the hall, So the question and adds another

853
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 4: nugget to that procedure.

854
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 5: So well, you're just serving an an order, you don't

855
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 5: normally come in the house, right.

856
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 7: Right, But there was a question whether or not they

857
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 7: were removing the child at that point, so it wasn't

858
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 7: entirely clear.

859
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 4: I promise you this.

860
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 7: Right now that she's been acquitted, there is going to

861
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 7: be a civil review and an internal police review. If

862
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 7: that hasn't already happened. Of these protocols and procedures, if

863
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 7: they were violated, you can bet Kelsey Fitzimmons is going

864
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 7: to bring a claim that her rights were violated.

865
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 4: And she's going to point to those very policies.

866
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 5: And the possible idea that they weren't following proper.

867
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 7: Procedure, right But in full disclosure, I don't know what

868
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 7: they would have been, but there are certainly policies and

869
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 7: procedures that track what to do when there's a weapon

870
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 7: in the house, what to do when serving a warrant

871
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 7: or a restraining order that dictate what to do as

872
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 7: far as entry. So and Kelsey Fitzsimmons seemed pretty confident

873
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 7: that they were violated.

874
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 2: Like you said, she went to law school, so me.

875
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 2: And is there a universe in which Kelsey Fitzsimmons, who

876
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 2: again she was the one who was shot, she received

877
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 2: a bullet from the other officer. Is there a universe

878
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 2: in which she sues Hitt for shooting her criminally, not

879
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 2: just civilly.

880
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 7: It's this universe, Courtney, Yeah, I think she absolutely will

881
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 7: pursue acclaim because it's her position. She never aimed that

882
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 7: gun at noonan she was trying to turn that gun

883
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 7: on herself, and a judge believed it. Like there wasn't

884
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,439
Speaker 7: a hung jury, this was a she was acquitted. So, yeah,

885
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 7: this is not the end of Kelsey Fitzsimmons and mister

886
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 7: Noonan and the police department and or the courtrooms in

887
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 7: this case.

888
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 2: I don't know if the judge believed it.

889
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 5: The judge said that there wasn't enough evidence to say

890
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 5: he did or that she that she actually pointed the gun,

891
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 5: and he even went so far as to say, hey, listen,

892
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 5: if the cops wearing body cams, it would be different.

893
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

894
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 4: So I don't know a good point.

895
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 7: I don't know point, but it does come down to credibility.

896
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 7: And the judge just he said she said it was

897
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 7: Noonan versus Fitzsimmons, and he certainly if you believed.

898
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 4: Noonan, he would have convicted her hook line and sinker.

899
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 4: I think it was an issue.

900
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: Good point, right, Okay, So, as Jared said, this will

901
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 2: very likely not be the last of this case. But collectively,

902
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 2: we're thrilled that Kelsey Fitzsimmons is able to get back

903
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 2: to what her new life will be in some capacity,

904
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: and it's wonderful. Yeah, absolutely same. Let's go to another talkback.

905
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 9: Hey, I did a little bit of a dug or

906
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 9: deep dive. I have a question on something I heard.

907
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 9: So I guess in Arkansas, if one parent gets investigated,

908
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 9: the other one automatically does. And if the one who

909
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 9: was found not guilty, once custody back of the kids,

910
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 9: they have to not be with parent that is found guilty.

911
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 9: So she will have to divorce him to get her

912
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 9: kids back if she is found innocent.

913
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: Is that true? Lisa from Pittsburgh? Wow? Right, very very briefly,

914
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 2: So the case that Lisa did a deep dive into.

915
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 2: Joseph Dugger was a reality star on TLC's nineteen Kids

916
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 2: in Counting and he's been accused of sexually assaulting a

917
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 2: nine year old girl on multiple occasions during a family vacation.

918
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 2: This happened in Florida in twenty twenty, So that's the

919
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 2: case she's referring to. So, yeah, what happens with parents

920
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 2: who are married.

921
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 7: Well, I don't know that there's any automatic provision that

922
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 7: requires people to get divorced or anything.

923
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 4: Of that nature.

924
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 7: These investigations come down to one thing, the best interest

925
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 7: of the So when you're looking at an individual who

926
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 7: has been deemed to have harmed a child, you're going

927
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 7: to automatically look at their spouse, their living situation, maybe.

928
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:13,720
Speaker 2: Not many caregiver in the home.

929
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 7: Absolutely, so you're assessing the totality of that situation. So

930
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 7: it's going to happen, and you would be committing malpractice

931
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 7: if you didn't do that, because the big question is,

932
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 7: although it happens, how is this going on without the

933
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 7: spouse knowing or another adult in the house knowing. Not

934
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 7: to say it doesn't happen. It absolutely does, but more

935
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 7: often than not, there is knowledge throughout the house that

936
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 7: this is going on. The second part of the question

937
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 7: is if one parent is deemed to have not been

938
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 7: involved and this there was an abusive parent, can that

939
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 7: child be put back in that house. There is not

940
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 7: a world in which that child should be put back

941
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 7: in the home under a roof where the abuser is

942
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 7: and in the situation where the abuse was allowed or

943
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 7: at least to acquiesce to occur. So yeah, I don't

944
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 7: know that there needs to be a legal divorce. There

945
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 7: needs to be a separation of residency though, because you

946
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 7: would in the system they cannot tolerate a child being

947
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 7: place back in that kind.

948
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 5: Of situation, right, So short answer, Lisa is well, when

949
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 5: there's this kind of case, obviously they're going to look

950
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 5: at the children and all the caregivers that that children

951
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 5: comes in contact with, which automatically, in this case would

952
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 5: include Kendra Dugger right like, because she's of course in

953
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 5: close contact with the children that are and Joseph share.

954
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 5: So it's not like an automatic kind of thing where

955
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 5: the spouse automatically gets uh investigated. It's just that they

956
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 5: look at all the caregivers in the home.

957
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 2: That's right. Is that right? Is that how I understand it?

958
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,320
Speaker 4: Yoh, that's that's absolutely the case.

959
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 5: Okay, So no, the answer is no to that. And

960
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 5: I hope that answered your question.

961
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 2: Zem. I love these well thought out, researched questions. They're

962
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 2: really good. Interesting. Yeah, if you're just joining us, this

963
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 2: is true crime tonight. I'm Courtney Armstrong, so happy to

964
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: be here with body move in and we are joined

965
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 2: with joined by Jarrett Farantino, a prosecutor, a former prosecutor,

966
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,439
Speaker 2: and we have another talkback that I believe is specifically

967
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 2: for Jarrett.

968
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 11: Hi, guys, this is producer Ava and I have a

969
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 11: question for Jarrett So every week when we have you on,

970
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,879
Speaker 11: we always mention your upcoming book, and we always say

971
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 11: it's coming Spring twenty twenty six. And I feel like

972
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 11: if April first, we've safely arrived in spring twenty twenty six.

973
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 11: So I'm just asking for a friend, the meaning I'm

974
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 11: asking for myself. When is your book coming out? What

975
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,280
Speaker 11: is it about? Can you talk a little bit about

976
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 11: your process, why you decided to write a book, and

977
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 11: what we can expect to be able to order it?

978
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:03,959
Speaker 11: You having a great show.

979
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 4: I don't know the answer to look at that now.

980
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 7: So the book is coming out April twenty second, so

981
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 7: very very soon, and I can't believe it's here already, right. So, uh,

982
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 7: the book is called Mother's Murders and Motivation, And I

983
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 7: play a tough guy prosecutor on podcasts and TV, but

984
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 7: I'm really a mama's boy, an Italian mama's boy from

985
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 7: Pennsylvania who was raised by an amazing mom who we

986
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 7: lost our dad when we were very young.

987
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 4: I was seven years old. We lost our dad to cancer,

988
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 4: and there's four boys in my house.

989
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 7: My mom raised us, went out to work, became an

990
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 7: executive for an international company, and we used to tease.

991
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 4: Her and say, mo, how are we ever going to

992
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 4: repay it?

993
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 7: She used to tell us, when you see a mother

994
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 7: that needs help, you help her, and you do it

995
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 7: for free. So this book is about the moms I

996
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 7: fought for in my career. That's what it's about. It's

997
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 7: about the homicide case is in particular that involved children

998
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 7: of mothers that were killed that the mom stood with me.

999
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 7: And one case in particular where a mother was reckless

1000
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 7: with her child or child was killed and I prosecuted her.

1001
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 7: So it's basically a tribute to my mom, who is

1002
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 7: going to be eighty years old this year.

1003
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 4: Is still beautiful, you know.

1004
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 7: And all the while, by the way, while I was

1005
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 7: writing this or living these cases, I was becoming a

1006
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 7: husband and a father and watching my wife become a mom.

1007
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 4: So that's what the book's about.

1008
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 2: I love it. It's a tribute to mom. And it

1009
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 2: is a great read. I have to say, I've been

1010
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 2: kind of secretly reading over Jared's shoulders since it's not

1011
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 2: out yet, but yeah, I can say it's pretty excellent.

1012
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 7: So the first that have read it told me, I

1013
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 7: read your book, and like two days, I'm like, great.

1014
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 7: It took me twenty years to get get done.

1015
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 2: That's a testament. What is your What does your mother

1016
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 2: think of the book?

1017
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 7: She she Well, my mom, we're very much alike. She's

1018
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 7: very very outspoken and you know, loves to be heard.

1019
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 7: She's excited about it. She's very happy with it. You know,

1020
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 7: she's proud of the life she lived, and she's very

1021
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 7: proud of her sons. So anything that highlights that, my

1022
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 7: mom really enjoys it and embraces it, and she just

1023
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 7: kind of wears it on her sleeve. So she's excited

1024
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 7: about it, and she certainly read it, and she's very

1025
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 7: very happy with it. And I think she was around

1026
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 7: for all these cases too, you know, these were these

1027
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 7: were higher profile cases I had. You know, she popped

1028
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 7: in and out of the courtroom along with my wife.

1029
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 7: So you know, I was glad that she got to

1030
00:59:58,640 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 7: experience that.

1031
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 3: I love that. Well, maybe you can give a little

1032
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 3: sneak peek and maybe this is part of something in

1033
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 3: the book. Is there a case that sticks with you

1034
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 3: to this day or one of the most interesting or

1035
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 3: high profile cases that you can give us a little

1036
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 3: teaser on.

1037
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 7: So two of the cases that are highlighted as my

1038
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 7: case my career went on is certainly the Hugo Selensky

1039
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 7: prosecution out of Pennsylvania, which was the biggest case I

1040
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 7: was a part of. He was a serial killer up

1041
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 7: here and he had killed an individual named Michael Kurkowski,

1042
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 7: and his mother stood with me and waited for justice

1043
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 7: for a very very long time.

1044
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 4: So that highlights it.

1045
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 7: And I also tell the story of my relationship and

1046
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 7: representation of Don Drexel through the final three years of

1047
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 7: the national search for Britney Drexel. So the case tracks

1048
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 7: my first, very first case as a rookie to an

1049
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 7: international case, which was the Britney Drexel case.

1050
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 3: Wow, I'm already intrigued. I like what I here. It's

1051
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 3: too good, And.

1052
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 2: I have to say it's very cool. Sort of the

1053
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: journey that occurs during the book, starting as you said,

1054
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 2: with particularly struck by your first case and just describing

1055
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 2: you know what that was like. Everyone has a first

1056
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 2: day of something, but the first day of going into

1057
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 2: your first murder scene, going into your first courtroom as

1058
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 2: the actual attorney, it's now I would say the same thing.

1059
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 4: My first murder scene was very very It was brutal.

1060
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 7: It was Kerry Martin, she was the loser and County

1061
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 7: Fair Queen and she was killed in a botch robbery,

1062
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 7: Dan near incapitated. And I was twenty six years old

1063
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 7: when I walked into that scene. And I always say

1064
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 7: the same thing, and I talk about it often. I say,

1065
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 7: the boy who walked in that house is not the

1066
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 7: same person that walked out. And imagine I changed in

1067
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 7: many ways for the better, in many ways not for

1068
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 7: the better.

1069
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 4: Throughout the course of my career. But that's what happened.

1070
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 7: And really the book addresses that growth as a prosecutor too.

1071
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 5: Does the prosecutor And this is like a general question,

1072
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 5: but does the prosecutor often visit the scene of a

1073
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 5: crime that they'll be convicting.

1074
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 7: Yes, I mean I've most of my cases. I was there,

1075
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 7: if I was involved from the beginning, and that was

1076
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 7: our practice in our office and.

1077
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 4: Most of the offices. It's important.

1078
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,919
Speaker 7: It gives you that connection, it gives you that ownership

1079
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 7: of the investigation. You know, I would go to the

1080
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 7: autopsies too, I mean, we were just preparing.

1081
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 4: You're the one who's got to paint that picture in

1082
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 4: the courtroom. That gives you that personal investment.

1083
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 7: And I was something I did and my colleagues did regularly.

1084
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,439
Speaker 2: Thanks for all that. Jared, stick around, because coming up

1085
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 2: we are going to take a look inside Alabama's prison system,

1086
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 2: and we're doing that through the lens of the Oscar

1087
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 2: nominated film Alabama's Solution. Jared Farantino sticking with us t

1088
01:02:55,560 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 2: Grenz Night. This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm

1089
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong. I am here with my buddy body move

1090
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 2: in and we are joined by Jarrett far and Tino

1091
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 2: former prosecutor extraordinaire. Listen. If you've missed any part of

1092
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 2: the show, always catch us as a podcast and always

1093
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 2: want to hear from you. We're at eighty eight three

1094
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 2: one Crime or Get with Us on socials. We are

1095
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 2: at True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, and

1096
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight on Facebook. And right now we are

1097
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 2: finally going into True Crime and Chill, which this time

1098
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 2: was the is the Alabama Solution And let's start it

1099
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 2: with a talkback.

1100
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 9: True Crime and Chill is back. What okay, Lisa from Pittsburgh,

1101
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 9: have a question about the Alabama or maybe your thoughts.

1102
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 9: You're always saying follow the money. Who has the most

1103
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 9: to gain from this being so non humane. Just the

1104
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:11,919
Speaker 9: question have a great day.

1105
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 5: May I have so much to say about the prison

1106
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 5: for profit system. I have so much to say about this.

1107
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 5: But yeah, prisons aren't run like you think they are.

1108
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 5: You know, people think they're run by like, for instance,

1109
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 5: the state of Nevada or whatever. They are in a sense,

1110
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 5: but they're also run by companies that you know, profit

1111
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 5: and you know, if it's not just aut dysfunctional system,

1112
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 5: it's we were house these people, and every person that

1113
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 5: gets warehoused is more money for this company. Right, So

1114
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 5: the it's capitalism. Yeah, that's truly what it is, right,

1115
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 5: and it's route it's capitalism.

1116
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 2: Well, I would be remiss. And this is something that

1117
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 2: Eva feels very passionately about. You are entirely right body

1118
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:06,439
Speaker 2: in terms of the private prisonism a system, But the

1119
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 2: only debate really shouldn't be public versus private And I

1120
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 2: actually agree wholeheartedly Ava. So the prisons in this dock,

1121
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 2: they're all public, they're all state run prisons, and people

1122
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 2: are still getting very very under elusy off of these

1123
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 2: prisoners who are incarcerated. So that's also yes to what

1124
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 2: you said, and and it's not the whole problem it's

1125
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 2: a lot of these institutions. But yeah, so if if

1126
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 2: you haven't made time to see The Alabama Solution. It

1127
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 2: is directed by Andrew Direki and Charlotte Hoffman, and it

1128
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 2: exposes systemic abuse and violence and corruption inside of Alabama's

1129
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 2: prison system. It is a remarkable and moving watch. It's

1130
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 2: told through footage that was largely recorded secretly by several

1131
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 2: incarcerated activists and these men, I mean heroes is the

1132
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 2: only word that comes to my mind. And I don't

1133
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 2: exaggerate that. It was Raul Poole, Robert Earle, Counsel, and

1134
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 2: Melvin Ray. And the film also highlights the story of

1135
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:25,360
Speaker 2: a former prisoner, Stephen Davis, and his mother, Sandy Ray. Now,

1136
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:31,080
Speaker 2: the prisoner Stephen Davis was fatally beaten by officers in prison.

1137
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 2: Uh there was zero accountability from the Alabama Department of

1138
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:40,760
Speaker 2: Corrections and we get to see this through his mother's

1139
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 2: you know eyes as she has on this heartbreaking What, Jared,

1140
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 2: what what do you want to speak to first? This film?

1141
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 7: I think there's so as a prosecutor, you you know,

1142
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 7: not all of you in particular, but you may think

1143
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 7: like lock the bad guys up and throw away their key.

1144
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 7: You know, before being prosecutors, we should be human beings first,

1145
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:11,120
Speaker 7: and parents first, and children first. And I looked at

1146
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 7: this documentary and the things I've known over the years

1147
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 7: of what goes on in prisons.

1148
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 4: It's eye opening, it's earth shattering.

1149
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 7: And it is I think it was Abraham Lincoln and said,

1150
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 7: you judge a society by how it treats its prisoners.

1151
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 4: And it's so exploitive.

1152
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 7: I listened to Andrew Direki interviewed extensively on Joe Rogan

1153
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 7: this week, and he told the story of a company

1154
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 7: that charges twelve ninety nine for video visits with children

1155
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 7: who see their parents. They physically travel to the prison

1156
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 7: to see a parent, and they don't have a physical visit.

1157
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 7: They have a video visit and they paid twelve ninety nine.

1158
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 7: And the reason they don't see them in person is

1159
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 7: because when you convert these visits to video, you're getting

1160
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:58,439
Speaker 7: that twelve ninety nine dollars twelve dollars and ninety nine

1161
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 7: cents per hour or whatever it is that is exploitive.

1162
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 7: It's it's you know, it's a correction system. How are

1163
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 7: you going to correct anything if you're not even allowing

1164
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 7: people to see their children. You know, these are human beings,

1165
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 7: and I don't know. I think you'll hear more prosecutors

1166
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 7: say that than you would expect.

1167
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 4: I care about people.

1168
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 7: I've fought for prisoners that have been victims of guards.

1169
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 7: I've prosecuted bad guards in my career. Those are very

1170
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:30,599
Speaker 7: tough cases. I've had to protect inmates and put them

1171
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 7: into witness protection within the prison system. I've seen firsthand

1172
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 7: how bad it can be, and I hope Andrew Dureki's

1173
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 7: documentary opens eyes for people and causes people to have

1174
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 7: that conversation it needs.

1175
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 4: To be had.

1176
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 5: You know one thing that comes to mind too, It's like,

1177
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 5: if if prisons were a little bit more transparent, this

1178
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 5: film wouldn't have been so shocking. It would be redundant, right,

1179
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,799
Speaker 5: Like these prisons they exist in like these black boxes.

1180
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:08,160
Speaker 5: Journalists aren't really granted access to them. This documentary only

1181
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 5: exists because inmates smuggled in devices, right, And I do

1182
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:16,720
Speaker 5: believe they need to be a little bit more transparent.

1183
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 5: It's funny, not funny, but ever since I came on

1184
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 5: the show, Stephanie said, I kind of really opened her

1185
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 5: eyes to this because when we were talking about the

1186
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 5: treatment of Brian Coberger in prison, and I was like,

1187
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 5: you got to feed him, you know, and she was like,

1188
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 5: let him rot, and I'm like, no, you got to

1189
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:33,799
Speaker 5: feed him. You know, he's still he's still a person,

1190
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 5: and and we're responsible for his care. As much as

1191
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 5: I hate him and you know whatnot, but we're still

1192
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:42,600
Speaker 5: responsible for these people's care. And listen, Alabama is not

1193
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 5: an outlier. This happens all over. This is a warning side.

1194
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:49,839
Speaker 7: I'm not an out right and Colburger is a great example.

1195
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:52,599
Speaker 7: If it works for him in the worst case.

1196
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 4: He's the easiest he or.

1197
01:09:56,439 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 7: If he's your standard right and you say it should

1198
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 7: work for him, they're not.

1199
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:05,200
Speaker 4: Everybody in jail is Brian Kolberg or either.

1200
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 7: There are people that you know, I have enjoyed, and

1201
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 7: this may come as a surprise, getting to know many

1202
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:13,640
Speaker 7: of the defendants I prosecuted.

1203
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 4: I've enjoyed getting to know them. Some of their fact

1204
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:18,680
Speaker 4: I just have. I mean, they found themselves in my

1205
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 4: courtroom and they're people like that. They didn't commit the

1206
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 4: crime of the century either.

1207
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 7: You know, somebody who was dealing drugs and they're gonna

1208
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 7: pay for it, and you know, doesn't mean they don't

1209
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 7: deserve to eat or live in humane conditions while they're

1210
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:37,400
Speaker 7: incarcerated and ultimately going to be let out. What do

1211
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 7: you think we have recidivism in this country for part

1212
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 7: of the reason because people.

1213
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,080
Speaker 4: Are that way. Other part is because the system made

1214
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 4: them worse.

1215
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:48,439
Speaker 3: And what is the goal of the prison is it?

1216
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 3: Is it for rehabilitation? Is punishment? Is it? You know?

1217
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 3: Is it aware? Use them as a sort of a

1218
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 3: warehouse project. Because to me, one of the things that

1219
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:00,160
Speaker 3: stood out in the film, going back to what you

1220
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 3: were saying about the people that are incarcerated, there was

1221
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:06,880
Speaker 3: one gentleman who who was incarcerated for breaking into an

1222
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:10,639
Speaker 3: abandoned warehouse. But he's serving like fifteen years for that

1223
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 3: because it's considered a violent crime in Alabama's you know,

1224
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 3: sometimes they're I guess they're swaying some of the laws

1225
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,440
Speaker 3: to make sure that certain things fall under that category.

1226
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 3: But this man, now he has been there for you

1227
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:27,680
Speaker 3: know whatever, fifteen years for something that isn't truly to

1228
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 3: me a violent crime, and now the cycle just continues.

1229
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 3: Once he's out, it's given fifty dollars to get on

1230
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:37,600
Speaker 3: a bus and try to survive and figure out what

1231
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 3: to do, and you know he can't. The cycle just continues.

1232
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,800
Speaker 7: I just and it wasn't even clear if he broke

1233
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,840
Speaker 7: in by the way he entered that warehouse. So it's

1234
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:48,320
Speaker 7: like so like that, I don't even know what the

1235
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 7: violent component to that crime was.

1236
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,599
Speaker 4: That kind of jumped out of me too. But that's

1237
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 4: the problem.

1238
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 7: I mean, so it's it's easy for people, I think,

1239
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:01,000
Speaker 7: to ignore this and right off off the plight of

1240
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:05,240
Speaker 7: the prisoner right when it's shown to you as viscerally

1241
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 7: as this documentary does, and it opens that conversation. I mean, Jareki,

1242
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 7: he doesn't pull punches. He's the guy that did the jinks.

1243
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 7: Like the Jinks is a great documentary.

1244
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 2: So good, oh the Jinks.

1245
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:20,680
Speaker 5: And he really made a change with that documentary, and hope,

1246
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:23,639
Speaker 5: I'm hoping that some change can come from this one too.

1247
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 4: Brought down fred or Robert Durst.

1248
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:30,520
Speaker 2: That recording I killed them all of course.

1249
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 4: I know it's crazy.

1250
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was that really was. But this I think

1251
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 2: there was one line that stood out to me the most,

1252
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:43,520
Speaker 2: and it was I do not recall which of the activists,

1253
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 2: whether it was Raoul Poole, Robert Earl Counsel or Marvin

1254
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:51,679
Speaker 2: Melvin Ray who said, you know what you said, body,

1255
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:55,680
Speaker 2: Alabama is not it's not an outlier. This is happening

1256
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:58,720
Speaker 2: in your state. It is happening near you. It is

1257
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:02,599
Speaker 2: happening in your AI and I rewound it and it

1258
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 2: was it just hit me so powerfully, and I really do,

1259
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 2: really hope that some change is enacted by this being revealed.

1260
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 2: And as you said, it's also secret journalists can go

1261
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 2: to war zones but not prisons. That was also one

1262
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 2: of the lines in this documentary. So it is, it's

1263
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 2: all shrouded and I mean, honestly, it's nothing more than

1264
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 2: state sanctioned torture that we saw.

1265
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 7: And these guys had great risk to themselves are telling

1266
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:37,640
Speaker 7: these stories. They're going to be consequence for this. You know,

1267
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,320
Speaker 7: I don't know if anybody didn't expect this documentary to

1268
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 7: go anywhere, but the thing is blowing up.

1269
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 2: And it was OSCAR nominated.

1270
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, it's I cannot imagine that the scrutiny

1271
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:52,719
Speaker 7: that at least Alabama's going to be under as result

1272
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 7: of this. These guys are going to be consequenced, and

1273
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 7: it's sad, but just think about that, that's the price

1274
01:13:58,160 --> 01:13:58,599
Speaker 7: they paid.

1275
01:13:58,640 --> 01:13:59,639
Speaker 4: To get their story out.

1276
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:03,479
Speaker 5: And this happens in all prisons, public and private. This

1277
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:06,120
Speaker 5: isn't necessary, you know what I mean, Like, like you said, Courtney,

1278
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 5: the Alabama, these are public prisons. It happens in both

1279
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:13,599
Speaker 5: private prisons and public prisons.

1280
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 3: And I wasn't really aware of that. I have to

1281
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 3: be honest. I assumed it would have been more in

1282
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 3: the private sector. So when I saw those fils, I thought,

1283
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:24,759
Speaker 3: this has insane to me that this is taking place.

1284
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 3: And one other thing that stood outs bothered me so

1285
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 3: much was the guard that is featured in that film

1286
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:33,559
Speaker 3: that was involved with those horrific crimes. He had been

1287
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 3: in at least twenty cases. Since the documentary, he's been

1288
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 3: promoted and he's been involved with several others. So it's

1289
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 3: just like, how is this possible. This person is in

1290
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:48,040
Speaker 3: a documentary that's featuring the horrific things he's done, but

1291
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:52,759
Speaker 3: he's now promoted and continues to do this. I just can't.

1292
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:56,320
Speaker 3: I don't understand, you know.

1293
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 7: And the other thing I was going to say to

1294
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:01,559
Speaker 7: they're all essentially private prison. People don't realize that they're

1295
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:04,599
Speaker 7: run by They're all.

1296
01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 4: Kind of the same.

1297
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:10,800
Speaker 7: We are subcontracting, so much of what you would think

1298
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:14,880
Speaker 7: would be state run in a state prison, the telephone services,

1299
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 7: the healthcare services, the security systems.

1300
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 4: All of this. You know, the building may be state run,

1301
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 4: that the employees, some of them are state employees, but many.

1302
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 7: Of them are all Like even nurses in prisons don't

1303
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 7: work for the prison. They may work for an agency.

1304
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 7: So we have essentially privatized the services associated with the prison, clothing,

1305
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 7: just the facilities themselves.

1306
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:46,040
Speaker 4: So it's a hybrid of public and private. If it's

1307
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:46,719
Speaker 4: not private.

1308
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 3: Based on what you're saying, there's no incentive to try

1309
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:54,360
Speaker 3: to lower the number of people in prison, though, because

1310
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:57,880
Speaker 3: if you're going to continually make money. So it's I

1311
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 3: guess I'm trying to figure Pebor too exact. That was

1312
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 3: another shocking part, and the major corporation we didn't talk about.

1313
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 5: I mean, it's a really sensitive subject, but it's essentially

1314
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:10,519
Speaker 5: slave waver.

1315
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't think they said it's specific in the documentary,

1316
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:18,439
Speaker 3: but I saw him the director in an interview referring

1317
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 3: to mentioning that many of those inmates in that same prison,

1318
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:25,880
Speaker 3: we saw an Alabama solution. They're working at Budweiser, they're

1319
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 3: working at McDonald's. They're doing all this minimum wave at.

1320
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 4: The governor's mansion.

1321
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 3: At the government doing his groundwork, like this is insane, right,

1322
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:37,280
Speaker 3: And I'm just venting because I wish I knew more

1323
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 3: of a solution and what we need to do to

1324
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:40,120
Speaker 3: get that moment.

1325
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 7: Part of the solution is number one, exposing the system

1326
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 7: and number two these diversionary programs.

1327
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:49,559
Speaker 4: And this is not some.

1328
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 7: West Coast liberal idea to have diversionary programs. These programs

1329
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 7: were ninety nine percent of the problems in this country

1330
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 7: are drugs, drug abuse. Yeah, every programs, mental health courts, veterans' courts.

1331
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:07,799
Speaker 7: I've seen them work, and I wasn't a true believer,

1332
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:12,759
Speaker 7: but I've seen tremendous results and people really being redeemed

1333
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,640
Speaker 7: in those processes rather than riding away in court or

1334
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 7: in jail.

1335
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:20,839
Speaker 5: Right in schools too, education, we need to start pumping

1336
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 5: money into the education of our children so that they

1337
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:28,599
Speaker 5: grow up confident and secure and able to procure well

1338
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:31,519
Speaker 5: paying jobs getting out of poverty. You know, there is

1339
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 5: no pulling yourself up by the bootstraps anymore. You know,

1340
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 5: you have to have this education and conflict resolution and

1341
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:41,800
Speaker 5: being social with other people your age, and I mean,

1342
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 5: there's just a whole host of systemic issues that we

1343
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:48,960
Speaker 5: love in this country for some reason that we're just

1344
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:53,599
Speaker 5: afraid to let go of. And our education system needs

1345
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:56,800
Speaker 5: a lot of work, I think, in order to fix

1346
01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:00,200
Speaker 5: the problem moving forward, right, so that the kids of

1347
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 5: today don't become prisoners as adults.

1348
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:08,040
Speaker 2: Right. And then I do think you know, Jarrett, as

1349
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:11,559
Speaker 2: you said at the top, that the first step in

1350
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:16,160
Speaker 2: the prison system is illuminating the problem and the Alabama's

1351
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 2: solution has done that in spade, So watch it if

1352
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:22,040
Speaker 2: you haven't. And Jarrett, it's that time. We really want

1353
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:25,679
Speaker 2: to thank you. You're incredibly generous with your time and

1354
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:29,519
Speaker 2: we'd love to have you any time you are willing

1355
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:30,840
Speaker 2: to hang out with us.

1356
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 4: Thank you, It's always my pleasure.

1357
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:39,440
Speaker 2: Yes, And have you anyone who wants more of Jarrett Farantino.

1358
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:42,800
Speaker 2: You can follow him on Instagram. He's at Jarrett Farentino

1359
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 2: and his book Mother's Murders and Motivation. It's available on

1360
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:51,799
Speaker 2: Amazon for pre sale now and available April twenty second

1361
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:57,839
Speaker 2: True Grunt Tonight.

1362
01:19:04,280 --> 01:19:06,760
Speaker 5: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we

1363
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 5: talk true crime all the time. I'm body moving, and

1364
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:13,439
Speaker 5: I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and producer to I have

1365
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:15,960
Speaker 5: a little case of the giggles, okay, and we're here

1366
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,519
Speaker 5: with engineer Adam as well. I wasn't prepared, so that's

1367
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 5: why I got a little case of the giggles. Listen,

1368
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:24,160
Speaker 5: we are almost on the show, and we've got all

1369
01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 5: these talkbacks to get to and all these true criminial suggestions,

1370
01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:31,800
Speaker 5: and we have this really interesting story out of Azusa.

1371
01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:34,960
Speaker 2: We're gonna be talking about that, right and we're just

1372
01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:36,320
Speaker 2: gonna jump it.

1373
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 5: It's very quick, okay, But Courtney, I mean, do you

1374
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 5: want to just riff this a little bit?

1375
01:19:41,479 --> 01:19:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, Body just you know, it was going to

1376
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:46,640
Speaker 2: be just a you know, chatting in the break, but

1377
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:51,760
Speaker 2: brought body brought this to our attention. And a man

1378
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:57,760
Speaker 2: was released from from prison in Azusa, California. And he

1379
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:02,520
Speaker 2: steps out of jail and and his name is Eric Valencia.

1380
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:04,760
Speaker 2: He's a thirty seven year old man. So he was

1381
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:07,680
Speaker 2: released on March twenty third, one o'clock in the afternoon.

1382
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 2: He walked up to a park patrol car that was

1383
01:20:12,040 --> 01:20:13,120
Speaker 2: outside of the station.

1384
01:20:13,160 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 5: It's like in the parking lot, right, just it was.

1385
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:18,320
Speaker 2: In the parking lot and completely on his own and

1386
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:21,800
Speaker 2: of his own accord. It appears on the video he

1387
01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:24,640
Speaker 2: got into the back of the suv and shut the

1388
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:28,439
Speaker 2: door behind him and then body, as you said, they

1389
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:30,880
Speaker 2: don't open from the inside.

1390
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:33,280
Speaker 5: Right, Like you if you're put in the back of

1391
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 5: a police car, the doors don't open, right, You're trapped.

1392
01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:43,200
Speaker 5: But apparently this this this car wasn't looked at for

1393
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:46,599
Speaker 5: three days, so it was it was parked out there

1394
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:49,880
Speaker 5: for three days unlocked, by the way, totally bizarre that

1395
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:52,200
Speaker 5: they would leave that they would leave.

1396
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:52,920
Speaker 2: A car door unlocked.

1397
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 5: But for whatever reason, this guy got in the back

1398
01:20:56,080 --> 01:20:58,680
Speaker 5: of the car. Now he was arrested for suspicion of

1399
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:02,880
Speaker 5: d y okay okay, and so yeah, like just like

1400
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:05,880
Speaker 5: Cortney said, he was released. He had his like he

1401
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:08,360
Speaker 5: was wearing like a blue scrubs almost I think they

1402
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:11,600
Speaker 5: were blue scrubs. And there's surveillance footage of him. He

1403
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:15,080
Speaker 5: gets released, he walks out to the he walks right

1404
01:21:15,120 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 5: to the cop car, opens the back door and gets

1405
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:19,599
Speaker 5: in and of course we don't never see him again.

1406
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 2: He died.

1407
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:25,479
Speaker 3: I wonder for three days, but you would think though

1408
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:27,680
Speaker 3: it's if it's right there at the station. Is that

1409
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:31,760
Speaker 3: what you would think that officers pass by someone like

1410
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,799
Speaker 3: he's banging kicking at the window, like something is unusual

1411
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 3: about that to me.

1412
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:37,400
Speaker 2: You would think.

1413
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:40,759
Speaker 5: Right, So the family of this guy, they want answers.

1414
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 5: You know, it's unclear why he decided to go into

1415
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 5: that vehicle and why you know, why he didn't. Now

1416
01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:51,040
Speaker 5: they're saying that he didn't attempt to signal for help

1417
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 5: or exit the car once once inside. But again I

1418
01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:59,519
Speaker 5: don't know this to be true. Luckily I've never been

1419
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 5: in the backup police car. But right, the understanding is

1420
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:04,639
Speaker 5: that they don't open from the.

1421
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:07,400
Speaker 3: Inside, right, I would imagine you can't like.

1422
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:11,839
Speaker 5: Climb there's usually like a barrier of sorts in between

1423
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:13,719
Speaker 5: the front seat and the back seats, so you can't

1424
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 5: like climb to the front to get out, right, right.

1425
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:18,599
Speaker 5: So he's like trapped in there, right.

1426
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:22,800
Speaker 2: And this poor man, you know, mister Valencia, he he

1427
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:25,760
Speaker 2: was only in prison, like you said he was. He

1428
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:29,840
Speaker 2: was arrested under suspicion of driving under the influence. He

1429
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 2: only was there over the weekend and then yeah, he

1430
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:37,799
Speaker 2: was in prison for a very short amount of time,

1431
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 2: and then he was given This is kind of important.

1432
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 2: He was given his property, including cell phone and food

1433
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:51,160
Speaker 2: and his and then his body was found. But it

1434
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 2: appears that his cell phone was in working order, yet

1435
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:57,680
Speaker 2: he never called nine one one for help.

1436
01:22:58,000 --> 01:22:59,960
Speaker 5: Right, So yeah, that's maybe that's why they're saying he

1437
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 5: did signal for help because he didn't call anybody.

1438
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:07,120
Speaker 3: Oh and his phone. I almost wonder if he was not.

1439
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:09,519
Speaker 2: A police are.

1440
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:11,760
Speaker 5: Taking this, It seemed they seem to be taking it

1441
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:16,240
Speaker 5: very seriously. The Azusa Police Department. They have retained a

1442
01:23:16,240 --> 01:23:19,200
Speaker 5: group called it's called the j L Group, and it's

1443
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:22,680
Speaker 5: a private investigation firm that's going to do an independent

1444
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:27,559
Speaker 5: probe into why the vehicle was left unsecured. So, I mean,

1445
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:29,640
Speaker 5: it seems to me that the police are taking this

1446
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:34,439
Speaker 5: very seriously, as they should, right because police cars shouldn't

1447
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 5: be left unlock because anybody can climbing those things.

1448
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Interesting, Well, thank you for letting us know about

1449
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 3: that one, because that was that's new to me.

1450
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, a freak thing.

1451
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:50,240
Speaker 3: Wow. Well, I was going to suggest if you guys

1452
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:52,320
Speaker 3: are open. First of all, I really enjoyed our conversation

1453
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:54,920
Speaker 3: with Jared. I love him. Every time he's here. I'm like,

1454
01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:57,639
Speaker 3: he it's the best, but our True Crime and Chill

1455
01:23:57,680 --> 01:24:00,880
Speaker 3: conversation in that topic. I really found it interesting, and

1456
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 3: we're going to keep that going. I think Ava has

1457
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:06,599
Speaker 3: already said several times we got to keep this going.

1458
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:10,479
Speaker 3: So she's got some other cases that relate to the

1459
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 3: prison system that we're going to be talking about. But

1460
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:17,439
Speaker 3: maybe we keep the a light version of True Crime

1461
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:19,760
Speaker 3: and Chill going down the road because there have been

1462
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:22,720
Speaker 3: some people who sent in some suggestions of things either

1463
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:24,920
Speaker 3: we should watch on our own or maybe consider for

1464
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 3: true Crime and Chill. Would you guys be open to

1465
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:30,200
Speaker 3: hearing a couple of them and maybe all the thinking through.

1466
01:24:30,439 --> 01:24:32,280
Speaker 3: All right, Adam, why don't we play one of those

1467
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:34,280
Speaker 3: and let's get a vibe what people want us to

1468
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 3: listen to.

1469
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:38,600
Speaker 12: Just wanted to see if you guys started watching Miranda's

1470
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 12: Victim on Lulu Yet. It's an awesome, awesome, awesome movie

1471
01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:47,519
Speaker 12: and it talks all about the reasoning behind the Miranda rights,

1472
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:51,599
Speaker 12: how it got started, why quite the drama scene behind it.

1473
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:53,920
Speaker 12: I think everybody will really enjoy it, especially since we

1474
01:24:53,960 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 12: talk about amendments so much.

1475
01:24:56,360 --> 01:24:59,920
Speaker 2: I love it. I've seen this you have to out before.

1476
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:05,200
Speaker 5: Well, I've talked about the Miranda and the guy who

1477
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 5: it's named after.

1478
01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:09,639
Speaker 2: He was killed.

1479
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:12,720
Speaker 5: This guy, this guy was killed, right, so he was

1480
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:20,559
Speaker 5: he was arrested for uh I think a sexual assault

1481
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 5: I think, and he got let go because they didn't

1482
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:27,160
Speaker 5: read him his rights. So that all that all went

1483
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:28,760
Speaker 5: to the Supreme Court. Now that you have to read

1484
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:33,759
Speaker 5: your rights right, Well, then then this guy years later

1485
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 5: gets stabbed in like a bar and then his killer

1486
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:40,000
Speaker 5: got let go because.

1487
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:43,960
Speaker 2: They didn't read him his rights. It's like the craziest situation.

1488
01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:45,320
Speaker 2: I think. I've talked about that before.

1489
01:25:45,320 --> 01:25:47,559
Speaker 5: I haven't talked about the documentary because I actually stopped

1490
01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:51,240
Speaker 5: watching it or the show. I'm not a not on purpose.

1491
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 5: It just I had to move on other things or something.

1492
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:56,000
Speaker 5: But I'm very interested in this one very.

1493
01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:58,880
Speaker 3: I love it, Okay, and it's a movie. It's not

1494
01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:02,920
Speaker 3: a series or thing right perfectly. It's like something a

1495
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:05,200
Speaker 3: little truncated when we've done a couple of things that

1496
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:07,880
Speaker 3: were series. It's a little more challenging.

1497
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:10,880
Speaker 5: I agree, but like an hour and a half kind

1498
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:11,479
Speaker 5: of situation.

1499
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 3: It works.

1500
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:15,479
Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, all right.

1501
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:15,840
Speaker 7: So.

1502
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:21,280
Speaker 2: Yeah check, let's get another one, hi, ladies.

1503
01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 13: I was just surprised that no one had mentioned the

1504
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 13: Manisphere documentary that through just released.

1505
01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:29,759
Speaker 2: It's going nuts.

1506
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 13: All over my algorithm at the moment, and would love

1507
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:32,720
Speaker 13: to hear what your thoughts are.

1508
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:33,240
Speaker 11: I thought it was.

1509
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,800
Speaker 13: Absolutely brilliantly done. No one but Louis could approach it

1510
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:39,840
Speaker 13: in the way that he did. I wasn't surprised by it,

1511
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 13: but I think a lot of my friends were definitely

1512
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:45,320
Speaker 13: shocked and appalled by the content.

1513
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:50,280
Speaker 3: Thanks another check for me, Courtney. You're nodding to tell

1514
01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:51,160
Speaker 3: me about this one.

1515
01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:56,040
Speaker 2: Yes, I am nodding. I am in vehement agreement with you.

1516
01:26:56,600 --> 01:27:01,000
Speaker 2: I think it's important. And Louis rowe the I mean,

1517
01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:03,880
Speaker 2: I don't think post he's like an investigative documentarian.

1518
01:27:04,160 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 5: He did it on scientology too.

1519
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:08,599
Speaker 2: Yes, Oh he is excellent, is right?

1520
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:09,559
Speaker 3: I think I saw that.

1521
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:14,559
Speaker 2: But it really it really sets It gives a great

1522
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:20,400
Speaker 2: landscape of the entire manosphere, and you learn about masculinity, dating,

1523
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:28,599
Speaker 2: power dynamics, and the online personalities that profit handover fist

1524
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:34,880
Speaker 2: really off of the vulnerable, often young boys and many

1525
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:41,320
Speaker 2: men who want to have these these manosphere influencers generalizing

1526
01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:45,360
Speaker 2: you know, incredibly in shape and you know either having

1527
01:27:45,400 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 2: a lot of women are saying they're having a lot

1528
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 2: of women and you can do it too, just you know,

1529
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:52,840
Speaker 2: just buy my course. That's right.

1530
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:57,680
Speaker 5: So it's really algorithm fed too, right, Like as soon

1531
01:27:57,720 --> 01:28:00,439
Speaker 5: as you get into the algorithm, you're being read this

1532
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:04,679
Speaker 5: content constantly. So yeah, this one, this documentary is another

1533
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:06,759
Speaker 5: yes for me yet.

1534
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:10,719
Speaker 3: Wow, and it's.

1535
01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 2: It's it's a pleasure, you know. It's a tough topic

1536
01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:16,800
Speaker 2: and a really pleasant watch. I thought I was both

1537
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 2: parts horrified, but it's just it's really well done. Louis

1538
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 2: Throw did a gorgeous job.

1539
01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:27,200
Speaker 5: I have a secret, but I love Louis Throw. So

1540
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:30,200
Speaker 5: I'm definitely interested. And of course I'm interested in the topic.

1541
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:33,680
Speaker 5: I mean, we talk about, you know, the consequences of

1542
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:37,040
Speaker 5: the manisphere on this show all the time. We talked

1543
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 5: about it a lot, and of course you're a project

1544
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:43,520
Speaker 5: the inselst podcast that's available to listen to from Katie Studios.

1545
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:45,200
Speaker 2: It's very well done. I'm in it too.

1546
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:49,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is so good, and so it's an important

1547
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:52,200
Speaker 5: subject and we we really think it's an important subject

1548
01:28:52,240 --> 01:28:54,280
Speaker 5: for parents, and we know a lot of parents listen

1549
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:56,880
Speaker 5: to the show, and it's one of the reasons we

1550
01:28:56,880 --> 01:28:59,240
Speaker 5: talk about it so much. Is because we really, you know,

1551
01:28:59,280 --> 01:29:01,160
Speaker 5: we know that if your parent has you know, you

1552
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:04,040
Speaker 5: guys have jobs, you're cooking dinner, you're doing laundry, you

1553
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:06,439
Speaker 5: don't have time to pay attention to all this stuff.

1554
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:08,960
Speaker 5: So we try to talk about it as often as

1555
01:29:09,000 --> 01:29:13,680
Speaker 5: possible without being annoying. So I'm definitely interested in this documentary.

1556
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:17,040
Speaker 3: One hundred. Well, we're two for two right now, so

1557
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:19,800
Speaker 3: we may have to uh maybe Stephanie will be our

1558
01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:24,040
Speaker 3: tiebreaker once we figure them out. But I know, I know,

1559
01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:26,280
Speaker 3: I think we might have one more. I think I

1560
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:28,120
Speaker 3: feel like there was an earlier one that someone sent.

1561
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:28,760
Speaker 3: Let's go to that.

1562
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:32,519
Speaker 14: Hi, Amanda from Rhode Island. I heard you talking about

1563
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:35,479
Speaker 14: the Newtons down in Florida. There is a show on

1564
01:29:35,520 --> 01:29:38,719
Speaker 14: Netflix called Naming the Dead, and it's a volunteer company

1565
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:41,760
Speaker 14: that uses ancestry, dot com, twenty three and me and

1566
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 14: stuff like that to find families of John and Jane

1567
01:29:45,160 --> 01:29:47,400
Speaker 14: does from thirty forty years ago.

1568
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:48,639
Speaker 2: Highly recommend it.

1569
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:53,800
Speaker 3: I mean, oh, already sold every single one. You're like,

1570
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:58,120
Speaker 3: I like this too, Yeah, yeah, this seems interesting as well.

1571
01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:01,439
Speaker 3: I did a little looking in to it. I guess

1572
01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:03,760
Speaker 3: it's a group that works to solve decades.

1573
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:09,599
Speaker 5: Old DNA do project. Okay, yeah, very interested in this?

1574
01:30:10,479 --> 01:30:10,680
Speaker 3: Is it?

1575
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:11,000
Speaker 7: Okay?

1576
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:13,200
Speaker 3: Interesting? I mean, so when you go to.

1577
01:30:13,240 --> 01:30:15,200
Speaker 5: When you go to crime con and you go into

1578
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:19,120
Speaker 5: the podcast row, you walk into the thing one of

1579
01:30:19,160 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 5: the first well and not at all crime cons, but

1580
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:23,920
Speaker 5: a couple of them, a couple of them that I've

1581
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:26,479
Speaker 5: been to at it. The first thing you see is

1582
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 5: a sign, let us take your DNA, and it's them.

1583
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:34,320
Speaker 5: And and then the next year they come and they say,

1584
01:30:34,360 --> 01:30:39,160
Speaker 5: from your DNA, we identified seventeen Jane does or and

1585
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:43,840
Speaker 5: five John does from the last one, it's very and

1586
01:30:43,880 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 5: so it's it's uh, I did it. I don't know

1587
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:48,960
Speaker 5: if my DNA was a useful at all, but I

1588
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:51,520
Speaker 5: I've volunteered my DNA for it.

1589
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:53,920
Speaker 2: So I'm one hundred percent invested in this.

1590
01:30:55,120 --> 01:31:00,400
Speaker 5: I think it's it's so important for families too, you know,

1591
01:31:00,479 --> 01:31:02,880
Speaker 5: get the identities of their loved ones and be able

1592
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:05,920
Speaker 5: to get their remains and give them a proper love

1593
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:09,080
Speaker 5: and care and respect that they deserve, you know. And

1594
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:12,599
Speaker 5: I understand that everybody is willing to give their DNA.

1595
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:16,120
Speaker 5: I completely respect that, but this really goes is I

1596
01:31:16,120 --> 01:31:18,559
Speaker 5: haven't seen this documentary. I have not seen it, but

1597
01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 5: I do know that the project is very thoughtful and

1598
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:25,760
Speaker 5: caring and I supported one hudred percent.

1599
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:30,800
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I mean the company sounds wonderful and just

1600
01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:36,320
Speaker 2: how not just you know, it's transforming cold cases, giving

1601
01:31:36,360 --> 01:31:39,960
Speaker 2: closure and then you know, also helping, like I said,

1602
01:31:40,040 --> 01:31:44,040
Speaker 2: just rebuild like families. Everything can change by finding out

1603
01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:46,440
Speaker 2: this information? So interesting?

1604
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 3: Can I pick one second? Body? I know you mentioned

1605
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:53,320
Speaker 3: just now some people don't want to give their DNA,

1606
01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:55,400
Speaker 3: and I actually have had family members that sat don't

1607
01:31:55,520 --> 01:31:58,720
Speaker 3: do that you shouldn't. Is there I feel like that

1608
01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:01,760
Speaker 3: it's Are there real logical reasons why I should be

1609
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:04,400
Speaker 3: concerned about it? Or what's your feeling? I would just

1610
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:05,080
Speaker 3: love to I.

1611
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:07,400
Speaker 5: Think I think a lot of people are concerned that

1612
01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:09,880
Speaker 5: there's going to be I think a lot of people

1613
01:32:10,280 --> 01:32:13,600
Speaker 5: absolutely think there's so much corruption in the system that

1614
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:16,680
Speaker 5: you know, they could use your DNA to play you know,

1615
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,960
Speaker 5: get it from twenty three and meter and somehow code

1616
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:22,800
Speaker 5: your DNA to be at the scene of the crime. Right,

1617
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:26,360
Speaker 5: So taha, we have your DNA on this window and

1618
01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:29,240
Speaker 5: you're like, I wasn't even there. Well, they planted it

1619
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:36,240
Speaker 5: from a website that and you know mistakes happened too also, right,

1620
01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:40,320
Speaker 5: so if a sequence is entered in incorrectly or you know,

1621
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:43,200
Speaker 5: something like that, now you're blamed because your DNA, you

1622
01:32:43,320 --> 01:32:45,800
Speaker 5: offered your DNA, and it's in the system that the

1623
01:32:45,840 --> 01:32:49,000
Speaker 5: police can query things. I think, I think people have

1624
01:32:49,120 --> 01:32:52,439
Speaker 5: legitimate concerns. And I listen, I am not here to

1625
01:32:52,479 --> 01:32:54,400
Speaker 5: say that's not going to happen, because I don't know.

1626
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:57,240
Speaker 5: You know, I do know that corruption exists. I do

1627
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:00,840
Speaker 5: know that, you know, people are pressed, you know, on

1628
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:04,280
Speaker 5: the police departments to close cases, and who knows, somebody

1629
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:07,200
Speaker 5: that's willing to break could do something.

1630
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:09,559
Speaker 2: But I don't. I don't.

1631
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:11,439
Speaker 3: I don't want to think that that would happen.

1632
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:12,720
Speaker 2: And now belave that.

1633
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:15,559
Speaker 3: But okay, well you help me understand, because you've actually

1634
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:18,880
Speaker 3: said the exact things that this relative has said, why

1635
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:19,640
Speaker 3: you shouldn't do it?

1636
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:23,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I I mean, and yeah, all points are

1637
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:27,479
Speaker 2: valid and personal, but you know that seems like they

1638
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:31,920
Speaker 2: sort of follow the theory of just question everything. Your

1639
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:35,799
Speaker 2: relative is following Socrates everything.

1640
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:41,760
Speaker 3: But that sounds a right, Well, we've got some good options,

1641
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:43,000
Speaker 3: so we'll circle back to that.

1642
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:46,120
Speaker 5: And I think so we have to pick one of those.

1643
01:33:47,040 --> 01:33:49,400
Speaker 3: I feel like that's probably the best option. We'll narrow

1644
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 3: down to one, give ourselves plenty of time to watch it,

1645
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:54,519
Speaker 3: and then maybe again we'll have Stephanie be the tie break.

1646
01:33:54,520 --> 01:33:58,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to vote for a mirandaus VICI okay, all right,

1647
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:07,320
Speaker 2: well man O spear for me, so yeah, already, all right, already, yeah, Adam,

1648
01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:08,839
Speaker 2: where are you landing?

1649
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:10,040
Speaker 14: You know?

1650
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:14,760
Speaker 2: Well, not that my vo matters, but I might vote

1651
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:21,880
Speaker 2: a Manisphere because that seems to be pretty uh. I

1652
01:34:21,960 --> 01:34:24,559
Speaker 2: hit my Venmo button quicker, that's why.

1653
01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 3: There you go.

1654
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:30,720
Speaker 2: But yeah, all right, guys, well done, what a great night,

1655
01:34:30,760 --> 01:34:35,599
Speaker 2: and listen tomorrow we have uh Tony from files Watch.

1656
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:38,760
Speaker 2: He is a social media influencer who is going through

1657
01:34:38,800 --> 01:34:42,479
Speaker 2: all of the Epstein files bit by bit. We're all

1658
01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:47,040
Speaker 2: excited for that. Yeah, and I have a beautiful night, everybody,

1659
01:34:47,479 --> 01:35:00,000
Speaker 2: can I