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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

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Speaker 3: I write the Dear Guy call Um for Ted. And

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Speaker 3: this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: This week, a man estranged from his daughter for twenty

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Speaker 1: five years wants a chance to reconnect.

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Speaker 4: She said, I changed my mind. I don't want you

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Speaker 4: to come to my wedding. And I just asked her,

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Speaker 4: why are you doing this? And she said to me,

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Speaker 4: you weren't there for my teenage years, the last several

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Speaker 4: years that I was growing up. You just weren't in

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Speaker 4: my life. I said, I wasn't in your life because

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Speaker 4: you kicked me out.

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Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.

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Speaker 3: Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute

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Speaker 3: medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 3: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

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Speaker 3: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions

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Speaker 3: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in potter

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Speaker 3: and full, and we may edit it for length, end

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Speaker 3: or clarity.

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Speaker 1: Hi Laurie, Hey guy.

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Speaker 3: So what do we have in our mailbox today?

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Speaker 1: Well, this week we have a letter about a very

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Speaker 1: common but very tricky situation.

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Speaker 3: All right, let's hear it.

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Speaker 1: Dear therapists. My husband Lennie has been estranged from his

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Speaker 1: daughter Julia, who is now thirty eight, for over twenty

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Speaker 1: five years. She has three children, and he, of course

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Speaker 1: has never met them. When Julia was ten, he and

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Speaker 1: I got married. She was severely poisoned by her mom

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Speaker 1: at Julia's wedding. Her mom passed out during the ceremony

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Speaker 1: upon seeing Lennie there. She was taken to the hospital

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Speaker 1: and returned to the wedding. Her own parents told my husband,

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Speaker 1: there she goes again. Every rabbi, mental health professional, etc.

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Speaker 1: Advised him to wait until Julia grew up and moved

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Speaker 1: out of her mom's house, and that then she'd come around.

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Speaker 1: Lennie is a family attorney and did not engage in

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Speaker 1: a custody battle because he knew what that could entail

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Speaker 1: for Julia. Throughout the years, he has sent Julia cards

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Speaker 1: and they were either returned, unopened, or never acknowledged. Do

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Speaker 1: you think there's any hope at this point for Lenny

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Speaker 1: to have a relationship with Julia or at least know

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Speaker 1: his grandchildren. Thank you, Patricia.

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Speaker 3: This is a letter about parental alienation and those situations

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Speaker 3: for a parent, but incredibly painful to know you have

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Speaker 3: kids out there who just do not want any contact

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Speaker 3: with you. It's one of the most painful things parents

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Speaker 3: can go through. And then on the other side, there's

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Speaker 3: the child who's obviously going through or has gone through

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Speaker 3: something incredibly painful that made them monte katoff contact. And

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Speaker 3: these are very difficult cases to deal with when we

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Speaker 3: get something like that in a CLINICX, because we rarely

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Speaker 3: get both parties coming in. It's usually the parent coming

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Speaker 3: in and saying, I do not have any contact and

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Speaker 3: I don't know how to re establish it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think what's so hard about it is

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Speaker 1: that usually the parent feels like maybe they made some

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Speaker 1: mistakes but it didn't merit alienation. That they're also being

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Speaker 1: portrayed in a way that isn't accurate, and that leaves

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Speaker 1: them feeling like they need to defend themselves. They feel

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Speaker 1: like they want to just throw up their hands because

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Speaker 1: they don't feel like they can clear up these misperceptions

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Speaker 1: that have been so embedded in the fabric of the

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Speaker 1: family at this point. And yet there's so much longing

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Speaker 1: to reconnect with that child, and when there's grandchildren involved,

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Speaker 1: it makes it even more painful.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things she mentioned in the letter

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Speaker 3: was that he didn't want to embulk in a big

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Speaker 3: custody fight because he didn't think it would be good

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Speaker 3: for his daughter. But that then puts him at such

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Speaker 3: a disadvantage in that sense. And I've worked with so

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Speaker 3: many parents who, like I tried to do the right

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Speaker 3: thing and it cost me the relationship because I didn't

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Speaker 3: want to put my daughter in the middle. It ended

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Speaker 3: up my ex did that. So there's incredible amounts of

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Speaker 3: frustration towards the ex because of that outcome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I wonder why it's the wife who has

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Speaker 1: reached out to us on her husband's behalf, because it

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Speaker 1: might be that he just feels so stock and she

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Speaker 1: sees that, and she sees the pain and really wants

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Speaker 1: to kind of write this wrong.

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Speaker 3: And I think I know how we can find out.

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Speaker 3: Let's go talk to them.

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Speaker 1: Let's do that.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 3: after a quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm.

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Speaker 3: Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Patricia, thanks for your letter.

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Speaker 5: Hi, thanks for taking it on.

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Speaker 3: And I see we also have Lenny, your husband. Yes,

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Speaker 3: hello with us, which is great. So I'm so glad

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Speaker 3: that you could come on the show.

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Speaker 6: Thank you, Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 3: It's a very painful situation that you described, and we'd

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Speaker 3: love to hear a little bit more of the history

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Speaker 3: there of what happened over the years, how that Alia

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Speaker 3: Nation happened between you, Lennie and Julia.

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Speaker 4: I got divorced from my first wife in nineteen ninety two.

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Speaker 4: Subsequently I met Patricia. Interestingly, we met over a lunch

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Speaker 4: that my daughter invited her daughter to come to, and

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Speaker 4: then we met afterwards and started talking and started going out,

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Speaker 4: and a year later we got married. And at the

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Speaker 4: time I had what I considered to be a very close,

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Speaker 4: very bonded relationship with my daughter Julia, and interestingly, Patricia

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Speaker 4: was not the first person I had dated after I

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Speaker 4: got divorced. I had gone out with a number of people,

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Speaker 4: never any issues. Somehow this became a major issue. My

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Speaker 4: ex wife, Cindy, was very upset that I was dating

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Speaker 4: someone who also lived in our community. We live in

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Speaker 4: a fairly small community, and she basically threatened me and

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Speaker 4: warned me I better not get married or there would

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Speaker 4: be consequences. So the consequences were that my daughter rather

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Speaker 4: quickly stopped seeing me. First, we were having what I

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Speaker 4: would consider be a real legitimate joint custody where she

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Speaker 4: would spend half the time with me, half the time

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Speaker 4: with her mother. There quickly became a meal once a week,

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Speaker 4: which then became nothing once a week. I would go

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Speaker 4: over to pick my daughter up. She would say to

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Speaker 4: me or my daughter, in front of both of us, Oh, so, so,

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Speaker 4: just your friend just caught up, wanted to invite you

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Speaker 4: for dinner, but you have to go out with your father,

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Speaker 4: or she say things like I wish your father would

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Speaker 4: get cancer and die and that would be better for

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Speaker 4: both of us. I mean, I'm literally telling you what happened.

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Speaker 4: My daughter was ten years old at the time.

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Speaker 1: What was Julia's reaction when this was said in front

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Speaker 1: of her. Do you remember did she say anything? Did

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Speaker 1: she look at you? Did she look at her mom?

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Speaker 1: Do you remember how she reacted to this?

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Speaker 4: I'm going back literally twenty seven years. I kept the

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Speaker 4: diary at the time, and all I can tell you

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Speaker 4: was her attitude became much more negative towards me, angry.

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Speaker 4: She would take on the tone and the words of

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Speaker 4: her mother. It became if we were going out, I

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Speaker 4: had to take her somewhere to buy her something, clothes

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Speaker 4: or whatever. That's how it became. If I wouldn't do it,

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Speaker 4: we weren't going out.

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Speaker 1: What was her relationship like with the friend, which I

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Speaker 1: guess is Patricia's daughter, right, So that was you, guys,

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Speaker 1: met was through her friend? Was your daughter, Patricia?

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Speaker 6: Yes?

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Speaker 1: So what happened to that friendship once the two of

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Speaker 1: you started dating? And how did your daughter react?

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Speaker 5: So interestingly, my daughter has disabilities, and Julia and my

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Speaker 5: daughter were in the same girl Scouts room. So Julia

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Speaker 5: would invite sometimes my daughter over for a Saturday meal,

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Speaker 5: kind of fat of the goodness of her heart, because

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Speaker 5: she didn't have a lot of friends my daughter. So

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Speaker 5: it was less a friendship and more a good deed.

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Speaker 5: Shall we say so. It wasn't like their friendship then

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Speaker 5: died out because it was never really a friendship to

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Speaker 5: begin with.

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Speaker 1: Was your daughter okay with you dating? Lenny?

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Speaker 5: My daughters were fine with it. Yeah, my daughters were

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Speaker 5: fine with it.

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Speaker 6: Yes.

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Speaker 5: Interestingly, one of the main factors I believe is because

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Speaker 5: my ex husband gave them what I call permission to

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Speaker 5: like this man who would never be their father, but

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Speaker 5: who would be their stepfather. That's a really good thing

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Speaker 5: he did, to his credit, Lenny.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about your relationship

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Speaker 1: with Cindy, your ex wife at the time of the divorce.

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Speaker 1: Was it very acrimonious.

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Speaker 6: Yes.

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Speaker 4: When Patricia got divorced, she had a perfect divorce.

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Speaker 6: Very friendly, using mediation.

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Speaker 4: Everything worked fine, and there was really no animosity. When

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Speaker 4: I got divorced, I had a war the roses type situation.

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Speaker 6: We had a marriage that was not a good marriage.

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Speaker 4: My parents got divorced when I was very young, and

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Speaker 4: I did not want to get divorced, so I stayed

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Speaker 4: in the marriage way too long. But Cindy would often

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Speaker 4: say to me, we should get divorced. I don't know

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Speaker 4: why we're together. Eventually, I reached that point where I agreed,

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Speaker 4: and then I tried to go to counseling to see

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Speaker 4: if that would help. It didn't, so I push forward

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Speaker 4: with the divorce. We got divorced very quickly.

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Speaker 1: After you went to counseling and you said, let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and get divorced. Was she still on board with

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Speaker 1: getting divorced?

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Speaker 6: And action did? Yes? But in reality I don't believe so.

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Speaker 3: Is Julia your only child together?

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Speaker 6: Julia is my only natural child.

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Speaker 3: And I think you said, Patricia in your letter that

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Speaker 3: you have consulted professionals and they all suggested, Lenny to

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Speaker 3: you that just wait until she's out of the house

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Speaker 3: and she has less influence from Cindy, and then things

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Speaker 3: should be better. Was there any shift? What did happen

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Speaker 3: when Julia did leave her mama's house.

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Speaker 4: We had seen many psychotherapists over the first years, trying

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Speaker 4: to see what could be done.

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Speaker 6: Who's we Patricia and I.

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Speaker 4: We went to a clinic and I arranged for therapy

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Speaker 4: or my daughter. I tried to keep it out of

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Speaker 4: the courts because as a family court attorney who deals

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Speaker 4: with the worst stuff, I knew what could be and

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Speaker 4: I try to avoid that my daughter graduated from high school,

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Speaker 4: went to Israel for a year to study there, and

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Speaker 4: I went over. I reached out and started having a

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Speaker 4: relationship with my daughter. At that point, we emailed back

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Speaker 4: and forth for the year I met her there, We

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Speaker 4: went out. When she came back, we went out to

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Speaker 4: lunch one time, and then she was back in her

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Speaker 4: mother's home and within a couple days that was the

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Speaker 4: end of it.

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Speaker 3: Was there any discussion when you were seeing her, any

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Speaker 3: processing about what had happened about the relationship. Was it

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Speaker 3: just with seeing each other and being very tentative, or

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Speaker 3: did you actually talk about what had gone on at

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Speaker 3: that point for the last eight nine years.

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Speaker 4: I believe it was just being friendly and trying to

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Speaker 4: re establish communication. We really did not discuss what went on.

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Speaker 4: There were certain things I couldn't discuss with her. Won't

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Speaker 4: let me go there, what kinds of things. Well, if

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Speaker 4: I would try to bring up anything like this, she

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Speaker 4: would just not respond or change the subject. And I

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Speaker 4: wanted to try to re establish a relationship, so I

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Speaker 4: didn't want to push her away.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any sense of if she were to

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Speaker 1: answer that question at that point in her life, what

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Speaker 1: she would have said about why she had broken off

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Speaker 1: contact with you.

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Speaker 4: I feel I do, because a few years later she

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Speaker 4: got engaged, got married, and apparently I had learned that

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Speaker 4: through a lot of pressure being applied by her mother's family,

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Speaker 4: she eventually invited me. At first, my name wasn't on

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Speaker 4: the invitation, nothing of that nature. But then she invited me.

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Speaker 4: I was excited and thrilled and made the arrangements, and

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Speaker 4: then about a week or two before the wedding, she

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Speaker 4: disinvited me. She said, I changed my mind. I don't

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Speaker 4: want you to to my wedding. We were able to

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Speaker 4: arrange to meet at someone's home and we talked and

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Speaker 4: I just asked her. I said, I don't understand what

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Speaker 4: you're doing while you're doing this. And she said to me,

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Speaker 4: she said, you weren't there for my teenage years, the

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Speaker 4: last several years that I was growing up, you just

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Speaker 4: weren't in my life. I said, I wasn't in your

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Speaker 4: life because you kicked me out and your mother forbid

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Speaker 4: me to be the yearbout mitzvah or anything that was important.

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Speaker 4: She said, I know, but you still weren't there anyway.

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Speaker 4: So I feel that she was angry. Maybe she felt

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Speaker 4: I didn't try hard enough.

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Speaker 1: That's a question that I'm wondering about. So when you

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Speaker 1: say that Cindy wouldn't let you come to Julia's bat mitzvah,

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Speaker 1: couldn't you have shown up at the bot mitzvah? Maybe

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Speaker 1: not the party, but the service.

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Speaker 4: I was told by several people in the community not

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Speaker 4: to come to any parties.

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Speaker 6: There wasn't much. I don't think there was any service

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Speaker 6: at all.

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Speaker 1: Did you communicate with her at all at the time

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Speaker 1: to say, you know, congratul relations or I'm really sad

284
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Speaker 1: that I'm not going to be there, I'm so proud

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Speaker 1: of you. Was there any communication going on like that

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Speaker 1: at all.

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Speaker 4: Yes, BACK bought gifts for her which I was never

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Speaker 4: able to give her, and I did try, even though

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Speaker 4: I wasn't there. I would let her know how much

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Speaker 4: I loved her by writing to her, by leaving messages

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Speaker 4: on the phone, because she wasn't picking up at the time,

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Speaker 4: I believe, but I did let her know.

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Speaker 3: So you're saying right before the wedding, there was I

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Speaker 3: think before the wedding said there was this meeting and

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Speaker 3: she explained she doesn't want you there because you were

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Speaker 3: absent from her teenage years albeit because you weren't allowed,

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Speaker 3: but then you did end up coming to the wedding.

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Speaker 3: How did that come about?

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Speaker 4: So, as you can imagine, that was one of the

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Speaker 4: worst weeks of my life. I was just very despondent,

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Speaker 4: very upset. I spoke to our rabbi and he insisted

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Speaker 4: that I go to the wedding, that I had to

303
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Speaker 4: go to the wedding, to the ceremony, and so he

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Speaker 4: said he'll go with me, and so we went and

305
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Speaker 4: I walked in and I on the other side of

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Speaker 4: the family that everyone came over to me and they

307
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Speaker 4: just hugged me and kissed me and thanked me for coming.

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Speaker 4: They then took me in to meet my future son

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Speaker 4: in law, and then I took a seat in the audience,

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Speaker 4: so it's not to make a scene or anything.

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Speaker 6: And then Cindy and.

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Speaker 4: Julia and my former father in law walked down together

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Speaker 4: down the aisle they had the ceremony, and towards this

314
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Speaker 4: end of the ceremony, Cindy just faked it and passed

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Speaker 4: out into the arms of a rabbi. It was just

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Speaker 4: you can't put words into it.

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Speaker 3: What was Julia's reaction to seeing you? Because she also

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Speaker 3: didn't know that you'd be there.

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Speaker 4: I I did not go into the room where the

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Speaker 4: bride sits before the wedding because I did not want

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Speaker 4: to create a scene. I just wanted to attend my

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Speaker 4: daughter's wedding. My feeling was that, besides the fact that

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Speaker 4: I'd have a right to see my own daughter get married,

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Speaker 4: I felt that she shouldn't have to go through life

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Speaker 4: later on dealing with why she did not allow her

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Speaker 4: father to be there.

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Speaker 1: What happened when Julia did see you though, because she

328
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Speaker 1: must have seen you there.

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Speaker 4: I can't even remember having eye contact with her, to

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Speaker 4: be honest, What was.

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Speaker 1: Julia's reaction when Cindy fainted?

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Speaker 4: It was really towards the end they finished it up.

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Speaker 4: They kind of moved Cindy off to the side, and

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Speaker 4: then they and then after the ceremony, they attended to

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Speaker 4: her and her parents and siblings stayed with me and

336
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Speaker 4: just basically said, there she goes again with the theatrics.

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Speaker 4: She allowed them to take her to a local hospital

338
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Speaker 4: apparently missed the wedding, and then the rabbi called me

339
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Speaker 4: a little later and said, she's getting her strength together,

340
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Speaker 4: she's starting to spend this that you're just you just

341
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 4: ruined your daughter's wedding, so you should leave, which I did.

342
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Speaker 3: Has there been contact at all you and Julia since then?

343
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Speaker 3: And what efforts did you make since then to try

344
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Speaker 3: and stay in touch in some way?

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Speaker 1: No.

346
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Speaker 4: I would write letters, I would send gifts at first,

347
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Speaker 4: but everything went unanswered.

348
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Speaker 1: How did you know what her address was so she

349
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,999
Speaker 1: was an adult now or did you send her emails?

350
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Speaker 1: How did you try to contact her?

351
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Speaker 6: People in the community seem to know where she was?

352
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Speaker 4: And then now it's say the later two thousand, so

353
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Speaker 4: you can start googling. I learned what Google meant, and

354
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Speaker 4: you can start googling addresses. And I actually spoke to

355
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Speaker 4: my former in law several times because they would come

356
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Speaker 4: to visit another adult child who was living in this community,

357
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Speaker 4: and I believe I may have found out from them.

358
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Speaker 3: So literally, no contact directly on the phone or otherwise

359
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 3: with Julia really since the wedding in many, many years

360
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Speaker 3: right now?

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Speaker 6: No, And so the answer is no.

362
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Speaker 4: And the irony is her mother and then moved to

363
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Speaker 4: that community to be near her too.

364
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Speaker 1: I'm curious to know what you said in those letters.

365
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Speaker 1: Do you remember.

366
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Speaker 4: I would tell her how much I loved her, how

367
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,199
Speaker 4: much I cared about her, how important it was to

368
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 4: try to establish a relationship again, to try to see

369
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Speaker 4: things from her perspective.

370
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Speaker 6: As difficult as it is to put this.

371
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Speaker 4: On me, It actually came back unopened, so I know

372
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Speaker 4: she never saw it.

373
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Speaker 1: So this was through the mail. It wasn't through email.

374
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Speaker 6: Yeah.

375
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Speaker 4: I email my son in law a number of times

376
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Speaker 4: to try to reach through him, so I must have

377
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 4: emailed Julia too, and I was getting no response.

378
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 3: So Patricia, I have a question for you. So this

379
00:20:49,639 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 3: has gone on for so many years. Why now did

380
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,160
Speaker 3: you write to us and ask for help.

381
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Speaker 5: Well, we talk about this a lot throughout all the years,

382
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 5: and as we're getting older, and he has three granddaughters

383
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Speaker 5: who he's never met. The oldest is either twelve or thirteen,

384
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,640
Speaker 5: so he would often say, I hope when they get older,

385
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 5: they'll at least google me to know that I'm alive,

386
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 5: because they've probably been told that I'm dead or whatever.

387
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 5: So maybe that's a chance I have. He actually tried

388
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 5: with another therapist a few years ago, and that therapist

389
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 5: recommended he write a letter. He did that went nowhere.

390
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 5: All these letters come back returned to sender unopened. Whatever

391
00:21:39,679 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 5: nothing gets anywhere. So as time goes on, is there

392
00:21:44,399 --> 00:21:46,799
Speaker 5: something else we could do at this point? Is there

393
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 5: another rock we could turn? There's got to be something.

394
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 5: It's never too late. That's my attitude. It's never too

395
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 5: late as long as we're on this side.

396
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Speaker 6: Of the earth.

397
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Speaker 5: So one night, it was like midnight, I said, what

398
00:21:58,879 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 5: the heck? I just stream of consciousness wrote that, just

399
00:22:01,919 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 5: reaching out.

400
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:03,919
Speaker 6: He didn't even know I wrote.

401
00:22:03,679 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 5: It because it's so painful. I mean, I have three daughters,

402
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 5: and Lenny is very connected to them, so it just

403
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 5: it just hurts me to know that he's got three

404
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 5: beautiful granddaughters. And I mean, this is like the worst

405
00:22:22,399 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 5: case scenario of parent alienation syndrome carrying on into the

406
00:22:26,399 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 5: next generation. I mean, can there ever be something, some inroads,

407
00:22:31,919 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 5: some crack in that window.

408
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 4: I also tried through the rabbis, and I was able

409
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Speaker 4: to locate her rabbi, and I tried reaching out that

410
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 4: way again.

411
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 6: I just got nowhere.

412
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Speaker 3: The Rabbi wouldn't respond to you.

413
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 4: He spoke to me for two minutes one day, Sato

414
00:22:49,919 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 4: speak to me again. A few days later. I have

415
00:22:52,639 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 4: been emailing him and calling him leaving messages. I just stopped.

416
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 4: At some point it was clear he wasn't going any further.

417
00:23:00,679 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 5: So again I started thinking, well, maybe if there can't

418
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Speaker 5: I say that in quote, be a relationship with with Julia,

419
00:23:08,439 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 5: can be some connection with grandkids. I mean, it just

420
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Speaker 5: seems just so overwhelmingly sad that there should be such

421
00:23:18,159 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 5: a generational cutoff.

422
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Speaker 1: Lenny, do you know anything about Julia's life other than

423
00:23:26,439 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: the fact that she has these three kids? Is there

424
00:23:30,919 --> 00:23:34,959
Speaker 1: a part of you that from afar is really proud

425
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 1: of her. You look at what she's done and you're

426
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: just filled with I guess just parental pride and love

427
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 1: even with all the pain that's going on in the background,

428
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Speaker 1: or I should say in the foreground.

429
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Speaker 6: I know something about her life, I honestly don't know

430
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 6: very much.

431
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if your friend Google got you anywhere,

432
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: or even the people in the community. You're in the community.

433
00:24:00,159 --> 00:24:02,999
Speaker 1: It's a small community. I'm wondering how much you know

434
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: about Julian, where her life has taken her, and her

435
00:24:06,679 --> 00:24:09,479
Speaker 1: husband and his life.

436
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 4: So I do Google things or Facebook things, because I

437
00:24:14,879 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 4: do try to stay in touch and see what I

438
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,999
Speaker 4: can find out. One of my friends who seems to

439
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,519
Speaker 4: be able to get some information. He's provided me with

440
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 4: the pictures of my three granddaughters, and he would always

441
00:24:27,399 --> 00:24:29,959
Speaker 4: say to me, he'd say, do you want me to

442
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 4: send this to you because I know how painful it is,

443
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 4: And I'd say absolutely, I say I want to see it.

444
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 4: I do get a lot of pride, and as I said,

445
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,519
Speaker 4: I love my daughter. I think what she's done is

446
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 4: a terrible thing because it wasn't just me. She cut

447
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 4: off my mother, my grandmother when they were alive. It's

448
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 4: just the whole family.

449
00:24:50,879 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: Can you tell me what you love about Julia?

450
00:24:56,679 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 6: That's a hard question that I wasn't expecting.

451
00:25:02,439 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: Take your time.

452
00:25:10,679 --> 00:25:12,199
Speaker 6: I don't know if I can even answer that.

453
00:25:12,439 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: I don't.

454
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 4: I know so little about her, and I mean she's

455
00:25:17,439 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 4: thirty eight, and I just I don't know anything about

456
00:25:24,159 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 4: her really, when you get down to it.

457
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: Tell me what you loved about her When she was little.

458
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 4: I loved her smile. I thought she had a good heart.

459
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 4: We had a very bonded relationship.

460
00:25:38,919 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 1: What did you do together?

461
00:25:41,639 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 4: We played games, board games. Unfortunately, when we would go

462
00:25:46,399 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 4: out as a family, it was basically me and Julia.

463
00:25:49,879 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 4: And then there was Sunday as opposed to me and

464
00:25:51,919 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 4: Syndy and then there was Julia.

465
00:25:54,439 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: What do you mean that when you went out it

466
00:25:55,919 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: was you and Julia and there was Cyndy instead of

467
00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: you and Cyndy and there was Julia.

468
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 4: I feel like a couple is the main core, Like

469
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 4: will be me and Patricia for example, if we went

470
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 4: out and then there's the chill, tho are the extended

471
00:26:13,159 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 4: part of you, But here it was more like it

472
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,999
Speaker 4: was Julia and May as the couple and Cindy was

473
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 4: the extended part.

474
00:26:22,639 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: Let me. I know that at the time of the divorce,

475
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 3: when Julia was still a minor, your feeling was, I

476
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 3: can't get into this fight with Cindy because Julia will

477
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 3: be collateral damage and I don't want that for her.

478
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 3: She will be the one to suffer. So I'm going

479
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 3: to stay on the sidelines for her benefit as much

480
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 3: as possible. And I'm wondering whether you've considered over the years,

481
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 3: since she's become an adult, stepping out of the sidelines

482
00:26:55,399 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 3: or do something that exactly the kind of thing that

483
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: you would never really do when there's a custody negotiation

484
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 3: going on, or when there's the option for her to

485
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,959
Speaker 3: get really caught in the middle there. Yeah, but you

486
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 3: consider doing anything that is more pro active since she's

487
00:27:10,879 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 3: been an adult.

488
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 4: So we're I guess laughing and smiling because Patricia has

489
00:27:15,639 --> 00:27:20,999
Speaker 4: that conversation with me very often. She's always prompting me

490
00:27:21,879 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 4: and pushing me very much in my court.

491
00:27:24,679 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 6: In that regard, I.

492
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 4: Think, if I'm honest enough with myself and I look

493
00:27:30,159 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 4: at all these years that have gone by, the bottom

494
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 4: line is I haven't done enough. I feel that I

495
00:27:37,639 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 4: haven't really done much other than the letters and the cards.

496
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 4: In that regard, I don't feel like I've stepped up

497
00:27:44,439 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 4: to the plate.

498
00:27:45,879 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 3: Did you not step up to the plate because you

499
00:27:48,439 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 3: don't want to make it difficult for Julia by having

500
00:27:52,399 --> 00:27:56,039
Speaker 3: that potential confrontation or did you not step up to

501
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 3: the plate because you were trying to save yourself the

502
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 3: heartache of further rejection.

503
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 6: In person, I would tell you it's both.

504
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 4: Really, I have to say I've compartmentalized this whole thing

505
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 4: to live my life. It's so painful and so difficult.

506
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 4: And there are certain movies that will watch and Petisia

507
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 4: will see me cry during those movies when they involve

508
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 4: parents and children. Or reconnecting. It's so difficult, and I

509
00:28:24,919 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 4: think a large part of it is I've blocked it.

510
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 4: I've really blocked it, and it's like opening up a

511
00:28:32,639 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 4: really sore wound. So that's certainly a big part of it.

512
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: And that might be where there's some disconnection between the

513
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,999
Speaker 1: perception of what you think is going on and the

514
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: perception of what Julia thinks is going on. Because that

515
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: comment that you made to you about well, you weren't

516
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: really there during my teen years, and you said yes,

517
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: but you made sure I wasn't there. You didn't want

518
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: me there during your teen years. I think there's this

519
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: fantasy that all children have, even adult children of my parents,

520
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: are going to fight for me, even if you're telling

521
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: them go away. Right when you think of little kids

522
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: when they say to their parents, go away, I hate you.

523
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: They don't really want you in that moment. They feel that,

524
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: but they don't really want that to happen. I think

525
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: it's interesting that Patricia was the one who nudges you.

526
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: Patricia is the one who wrote the letter to us

527
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 1: today because this is just so painful for you that

528
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: it's hard to open that door emotionally for yourself. Because

529
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: you feel like you won't survive it. That's true, And

530
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: at the same time, I imagine that maybe from Julia's perspective,

531
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,239
Speaker 1: there is some element of he didn't fight for me

532
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,759
Speaker 1: hard enough, even if the message was go away.

533
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 6: And I get that.

534
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: I get that You're asking is there something I can do?

535
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,799
Speaker 3: Are you clear that even if there is something you

536
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: can do, to do it would be to open up

537
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 3: that wound that you've been able to compartmentalize. To do

538
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 3: it would be to really risk a lot of pain.

539
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 3: I'm asking if that's something you've thought through, if that's

540
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: something you're actually indeed looking for. Is that something you

541
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 3: are you humoring Patricia? Or is that something that you're

542
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 3: ready to do now? To go and fight now? Is

543
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 3: that something you will be ready to do?

544
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,759
Speaker 4: So, I would certainly tell you, am I afraid? Is

545
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 4: that a big factor? Absolutely?

546
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: Can you talk more about the fear?

547
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 6: So?

548
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:51,239
Speaker 4: I'm very scared about this. My stomach has been just

549
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,799
Speaker 4: a wreck the entire week just thinking about it and

550
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 4: really opening this all up again. I don't know what

551
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 4: else to do anymore, and I think I had to

552
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,239
Speaker 4: become more proactive. So I'm prepared to do whatever anyone

553
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 4: could think of to try to see if I you

554
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:10,999
Speaker 4: break the stalemate.

555
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,239
Speaker 1: What do you fear more that you'll try something and

556
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: it won't work, or that things will stay the way

557
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: that they are.

558
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 4: I'm not sure there's a difference, because if I try

559
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 4: something and it doesn't work, then things are going to

560
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 4: stay the way they are.

561
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 6: It's really the same thing to me.

562
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,959
Speaker 1: There is a difference because you will be smarting from

563
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: the pain in a fresh way if you try something

564
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: now and it doesn't work.

565
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's a good point. I don't know. I've

566
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 6: learned to live with this for so many years, and

567
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 6: I don't know what it can do to my life.

568
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 6: It's very scary.

569
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 1: What is the worst possible thing that you think it

570
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: could do to your life? If you reach out, you

571
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,519
Speaker 1: get really proactive about this, and she still doesn't want

572
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: to have contact with you.

573
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 4: The worst thing, I guess would be my health. Honestly,

574
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 4: I had a heart attack yet ago. I'd be afraid

575
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,719
Speaker 4: that happened again. Patricia thinks that it was all caused

576
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 4: by stress or am I holding it back or combination.

577
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 6: That's a scary thing.

578
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,479
Speaker 3: And are you also will any that in the best

579
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 3: case scenario that is that you take some kind of

580
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 3: action and it does work, and she's willing in some

581
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 3: way to have some kind of contact with you, That

582
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 3: there would be a lot of processing and very difficult

583
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 3: conversations to be had. In other words, that the difficult

584
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 3: moment is not just the moment of you taking action,

585
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 3: but it will be many moments that follow, because this

586
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 3: is a relationship that would need a lot of work

587
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 3: if we were to get into the right track. Is

588
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,479
Speaker 3: that something you're also considering, that this is not just

589
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 3: a one time shot, but probably an ongoing exposing of

590
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 3: the wound in all of it.

591
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 6: I'm prepared to do that.

592
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 4: In fact, in one of the letters I wrote her,

593
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 4: maybe more than one, I'd suggest that we go to counseling.

594
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,999
Speaker 4: She picked the counselor she picked the time, the place.

595
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 4: I understand that's exactly what I'd have to do.

596
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 7: I think one of the things that scares me is that,

597
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 7: at least initially, if we get anywhere, it would require

598
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 7: me to have contact alone, that Patricia's cut out of that.

599
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 7: Probably that bothers me tremendously. I haven't even discussed it

600
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 7: with her.

601
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,239
Speaker 3: Right because Patricia just turned to you, like, Hmmm, what

602
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: do you mean that was the expression?

603
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're two separate people, and that bothers me tremendously.

604
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 4: But I know that would have to be the case.

605
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 3: And Patricia does too, probably right at least at the beginning.

606
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: The thing is, you are two separate people, and there

607
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: are a bunch of relationships here. There's Julia's relationship with you,

608
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: There's Julia's relationship with Patricia. There's your relationships respectively with

609
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: the grandkids, potentially the son in law, and your relationship

610
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 1: with each other and how this affects that as well.

611
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: It sounds like Patricia has been a great support for

612
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: you throughout all of this. She's a rock, yeah, And

613
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: so having to go into this without her meaning she'll

614
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: be there to support you, but she won't be by

615
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: your side because Julia probably would not want that right.

616
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 4: Now, right So I'm not afraid to do it alone

617
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 4: in that regard. I just don't like cutting her out.

618
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 1: What I'm hearing is there are so many reasons based

619
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: in fear, and the fears that you're describing I think

620
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: are just one when you sum it all up, and

621
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: that's the fear of having your heart stomped off again.

622
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: So you can say, well, I don't like that Patricia

623
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't be a part of this. I don't like this

624
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: or that or the other aspect of it. But I

625
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: think at the end of the day, you said, and

626
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: I think it's very symbolic, you said, I'm afraid of

627
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: having another heart attack the seed of love. That your

628
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: fear is that your heart, in every way might not

629
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 1: be able to endure this. Yeah, and at the same time,

630
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: I don't know that your heart can endure leaving things

631
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: the way they are, knowing that you didn't act as

632
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: proactively as you might have.

633
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 6: La Trecia said something very similar to me last night.

634
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 3: And those really are the choices. You have, the choices

635
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: to do nothing, but then have that question of what

636
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 3: if I had taken more proactive action and living with that,

637
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 3: or risking taking more proactive action and risking getting your

638
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 3: heart stumped on because when you take proactive action in

639
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 3: this kind of situation, there is always hope, and it's

640
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 3: the hope that gets dash that is so painful. And

641
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 3: there's no way to take proactive action without allowing the

642
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: hope to come through. And you've been able to compartmentalize

643
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 3: for many years and keep hope down and keep expectations down.

644
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 3: But it won't be possible to do that if you're

645
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 3: actually planning to take action. So those are the risks,

646
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 3: and you're saying very clearly, Lenny, which I'm kind of

647
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: glad to hear that I would rather risk having my

648
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: heart stumped, so even if it doesn't work out, I'll

649
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 3: be able to say to myself, I did what I could.

650
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 3: I'm saying that, Patricia, you're nodding along as any you're speaking.

651
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 3: You seem to be so supportive. You seem to be

652
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 3: really clear about Yes, of course I can't be there

653
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 3: right away. So you've thought about this a lot, and

654
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 3: because you've been living with it for so long, I'm

655
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 3: just curious. Have you ever thought about what is the

656
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 3: most proactive thing you could see Leny doing?

657
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 5: Wow, that's a great question. What is the most proact

658
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 5: showing up at her apartment Because we've talked about that,

659
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 5: you have, Yeah, we've talked about like when the letters

660
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 5: come back, like go to her apartment house and just

661
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 5: see what the apartment number is, because some one came

662
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 5: back saying wrong apartment numbers. I think go to the

663
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 5: apartment house, like do your own investigation. Just show up.

664
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 5: I know that's huge, but I'm nodding from the perspective

665
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 5: of Lenny's talking and the heaviness and the pain. And

666
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 5: I'm also nodding because everything you're saying is just so

667
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 5: amazingly right on. I mean, the visuals of the heart

668
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 5: being stomped and the metaphor of the heart attack and

669
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 5: the breaking. I mean, it's so powerful. And fear is

670
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 5: a huge factor in Lenny's personality and doing what he's

671
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 5: done up until now, or not doing what he's done

672
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 5: up until now, because the hurt and the fear of

673
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 5: rejection has outweighed the benefit. I bring it up openly

674
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 5: and say, if you were to die tomorrow and on

675
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 5: your deathbed, would you be okay that you did enough

676
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 5: that this was it? And sometimes in the past his

677
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 5: answers have been yes, because the pain of re engaging

678
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 5: and opening that up is too horrific, too hard. But

679
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 5: of late it's been not such an obvious answer. So

680
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 5: maybe there's starting to be a shift. Maybe there's starting

681
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 5: to be a shift since I got the response from

682
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 5: your letter, But these conversations, even in the last ten days,

683
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 5: have started shifting.

684
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 3: Oh, there's a shift because Lenny is really clear right now,

685
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 3: and so there's definitely been a shift you didn't wuffle

686
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 3: on that you were clear, right, I'm glad. So that's

687
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 3: a big shift, yes.

688
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: And sometimes these shifts happen as people get older and

689
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: they start to really come to terms with the reality

690
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: that they might not have as much time to fix

691
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: thing that maybe they imagined they would have earlier on, or.

692
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 3: For something to get fixed spontaneously, because she comes to

693
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 3: some kind of epiphany.

694
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: Right that the urgency, the urgency becomes heightened as people

695
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: get older. I see also on your face, Patricia, throughout

696
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: this conversation, I've seen how much you care about Lenny

697
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: and love him, and as a parent yourself, how much

698
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 1: you can empathize with the pain that he's experiencing. And

699
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: I wonder if you're holding a lot of the pain

700
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: for him that he's not able to feel himself.

701
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 6: Yeah.

702
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 5: I mean it's going to sound wrong, but I'm caring

703
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 5: for the two of us, Like, yes, I care more

704
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 5: than he cares. Now that's not the truth, of course

705
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 5: he cares more, but it feels like I care more

706
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 5: because this judges me to the point of doing things

707
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 5: about it and trying whatever kookie thing I could possibly.

708
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 3: Think, like writing a letter to us, Yeah.

709
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: That cookie thing.

710
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 5: And he's comfortable closing the door, locking it, putting the

711
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 5: key in a compartment and saying, let me just live

712
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 5: my life with my step grandchildren and I'm doing fine.

713
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 5: Why you're rocking the boat.

714
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: It's not that you care more, it's that it doesn't

715
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: hurt as much for you to think about it. You know.

716
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: There's another piece of this, which is that there's often

717
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: so much shame for the estranged parent in a community

718
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: where you have to explain to people all the time

719
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: where you just meet people and they said, you have kids,

720
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: and yes, I have a daughter. Oh you know, tell

721
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: me about your daughter right where you might be out

722
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: socially and then oh, it's just such a point of

723
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: pain right there. And then what do you say? And

724
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: do you have a story that so you don't have

725
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: to get into it with strangers or people that you

726
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: don't know that well in daily life this comes up

727
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: where you're remind did and there's a lot of shame

728
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of times the estranged parent

729
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: worries that people are going to think, well, what did

730
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: this person do that their daughter doesn't talk to them anymore.

731
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: For all of these years that he can't see as grandchildren,

732
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 1: what's the real story there, what happened? And so I

733
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: can understand, Lenny, why part of you thinks it's easier

734
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: to just kind of live the way you're living and

735
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: have the grandparent relationship that you have with Patricia's children.

736
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 5: If I could just say that his way of coping

737
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 5: all these years, it's kind of like, sometimes I feel

738
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 5: like I'm judgmental because how could you do that? And

739
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 5: then I spat myself and I say, like you said,

740
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 5: this is his pain. This coping style has worked for

741
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 5: him all of these years.

742
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: Because what the coping style is of complementalizing is it

743
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 3: is not like repression. Repressions means you put it out

744
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 3: of minds, you don't think about it. When you compamentalize,

745
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 3: you think about it, you don't feel it. What you

746
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 3: compamentalize is the emotional aspect. So the ideas can be there,

747
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 3: the thoughts can be there, but you find a way

748
00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 3: to put the feelings aside so that the hurt is

749
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 3: not there all the time. And it's not that that's

750
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 3: comfortable because you said, you know he's comfortable, He's not comfortable,

751
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 3: but it's easier, it's just a little less painful.

752
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 5: And it's such a great distinction, yes, the compartmentalizing the

753
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 5: feelings because it's too uncomfortable to feel. And for twenty

754
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 5: five years he's led an amazing life, I mean, in

755
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 5: his professional life, in our life, in our doing amazing

756
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 5: things together. So it's not like he's he curled up

757
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 5: in bed and said I'm done. His coping skills have

758
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 5: tremendously enabled him to be resilient and carry on, and

759
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 5: now we're here.

760
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 4: This is one of the reasons I went into the

761
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 4: field that I went into family life. I'm a trial

762
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 4: litigator in dealing with child abuse, primarily domestic violence and custody.

763
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 6: That's what I do. It's one of the things. It's

764
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 6: been so rewarding.

765
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 4: I can't even begin to describe how rewarding that's been.

766
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 1: And there must be such cognitive dissonance when you can

767
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: do that for other families, but you weren't able to

768
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: manage that with your own. And so we're glad to

769
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: hear that you're open to some possibilities and maybe trying

770
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: something different instead of what hasn't worked before. And so

771
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: I think Guy and I have some advice for you.

772
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 6: Great.

773
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: It's very clear that you've been thinking about Julia every

774
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: single day of your life in some way, and you've

775
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: tried to contact her. You've made various efforts, and even so,

776
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: we're not sure that Julia knows this, and that might

777
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: be very confusing for you because you feel like you've

778
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: tried so hard and she was the one who pushed

779
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: you away. Have a feeling that she sees it differently.

780
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: So in order to make sure that she knows, we

781
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: want you to create a very strategic campaign. And the

782
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: campaign isn't to get her to reconnect with you, although

783
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: we hope that that might happen at some point, but

784
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: the campaign is to make sure that she knows how

785
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: much she matters to you, because we think that will

786
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 1: do a lot no matter what she does. One of

787
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: the things that Julia might have been thinking was that

788
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: in your work every day you are fighting for other

789
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: people's kids, but that maybe you didn't fight enough for her.

790
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 1: And again, this is her perspective. This isn't necessarily how

791
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: you think about it, but it's going to be really

792
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: important that she feels like you understand why she is.

793
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 3: So hurt and what's important for you is to feel

794
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 3: like you've done everything you can, like you are now

795
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 3: going to be as proactive as you can possibly be.

796
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 3: And that really means a full court price. It really

797
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: means a campaign, because one letter, one voicemail or two

798
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 3: is not going to give her the impression that you

799
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: care as much as you do, and it's not going

800
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 3: to give you the impression that you've tried as hard

801
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 3: as you need to. And that campaign is contacting her

802
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: by voicemail or by email or by letter, but one

803
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 3: of those every single day in which you say to her,

804
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 3: I screwed up because I think about you every day,

805
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 3: but you don't know that I know you don't because

806
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 3: I didn't make that clear enough to you over these years.

807
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 3: And so I'm going to be contacting you every day

808
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 3: with the hopes that we can speak eventually, and if not,

809
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 3: with a knowledge, at least that you know that I

810
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 3: truly care, because that's what, as your father, is really important,

811
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 3: that you know that it's every day that I think

812
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 3: about you. And we'd like you to start that campaign

813
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 3: as soon as possible, and would like you to keep

814
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 3: a little bit of a journal on what it feels

815
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 3: like to be so proactive, what it feels like to fight,

816
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 3: And would like to hear how you're feeling after two

817
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: weeks of this campaign, And would like to hear from you, Patricia,

818
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 3: your perspective on how Lenny is doing in this campaign.

819
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 3: What is fighting doing for him? Is he Is it

820
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 3: putting a spring in his step? Is he more proactive

821
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 3: in other areas of his life? Would like both perspectives,

822
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 3: yours Lenny and yours Patricia about him.

823
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 5: Would this be perceived by her as harassment?

824
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: So here's the thing. It seems like you guys have

825
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons not to be proactive. And it's

826
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: not that there isn't some real validity to some of

827
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: the concerns. But the fact is that from Julia's perspective,

828
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:38,760
Speaker 1: it's been decades and her father tried to send some letters.

829
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: Maybe she received them, maybe she didn't. We don't know.

830
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: If you have any pieces of information from Julia, it's

831
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: this in my teenage years, you didn't fight for me,

832
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: and I don't want you at my wedding. That is

833
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: the one piece of information you have. She feels you

834
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: didn't fight for her, and I have a feeling it's

835
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: very hard for one's child when the parent is not

836
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,720
Speaker 1: saying I am out there fighting for you every single

837
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: day to know how much they care, to know how

838
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: much she matters to you. You're not showing up on

839
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: her doorstep, you're not trying to waylay her on the street.

840
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: You are simply sending her an email, a voicemail, a

841
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: letter in the mail. And so we'd like you to

842
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: do this for two weeks straight without skipping a day,

843
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: so that Julia sees what it's like to have her

844
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: father fight for her. Now, we don't expect anything to

845
00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 1: happen in these two weeks, we would like you to

846
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: report back in two weeks to see what it feels

847
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: like to you to actually fight in a concerted way.

848
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: To start this campaign to try to get reelected as

849
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: her father. You are running for the office of father

850
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: and you need to get reelected. You have never done

851
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: that kind of campaign with her.

852
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 3: But here's the thing, Lenny, for this to truly have

853
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 3: an impact, it has to be a campaign, and we

854
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 3: want you to do it for a full year.

855
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds like a lot, but it's

856
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: been many years where Julia doesn't know that you've been

857
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: thinking about her every day, and we want to give

858
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: her enough time to see you be proactive, to see

859
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: you fight in a consistent way, and we think a

860
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: year is that amount of time. And then at the

861
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: year mark, you can let her know, Hey, I'm so

862
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: sad that you weren't interested in having a conversation with me.

863
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to let you know how much you matter.

864
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: And I feel like I've done that, and I will

865
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: still think about you every day for the rest of

866
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: my life, and I want you to know that I

867
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: am here for you. And then maybe you'll have a

868
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: sense of peace at the end of that year. Were

869
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: no matter what happens, whether she gets back in contact

870
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 1: with you or she doesn't, that you did the thing

871
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: that she said you hadn't, which was to fight for her.

872
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 1: And you fought a good battle, and you might win

873
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: and you might not, but you showed up. I want

874
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 1: to speak not to the part of you that is

875
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: full of fear, but I want to speak to the

876
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: part of you that's full of love and longing. How

877
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: does it sound to that part of you?

878
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 6: It sounds very good. I'm in That's what I'll say.

879
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 3: You know, Lenny, I want you to think of this

880
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 3: when you're doing it as this is me fighting for her,

881
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 3: because that's a very empowering thought. This is not me

882
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 3: begging her, This is me letting her know that I care,

883
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 3: and that is an empowering thought, and that's the thought

884
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 3: that should sustain you through this, even if you don't

885
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 3: get responses.

886
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 7: You made a good point before that really hit home

887
00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:03,760
Speaker 7: when you said that how hard I fight for other children,

888
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 7: but I haven't done it for her.

889
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 4: And maybe perhaps she's aware of that and that is

890
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 4: a reality to her, and she.

891
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: Needs to know that she matters more than those other kids,

892
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,240
Speaker 1: and I don't think that's been communicated, and that's what

893
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: we hope will get communicated to her no matter what

894
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 1: she does with it through this campaign.

895
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 6: I said that.

896
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 3: Thank you, all right, Well.

897
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 1: We look forward to hearing how it goes, and we'll

898
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: speak to you in a couple of weeks.

899
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 6: Thank you, okay, great, please, very special.

900
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for talking with us. It's really

901
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 3: been a pleasure and we really wish you the best

902
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 3: and we wish you good luck.

903
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 6: Thank you, Thank you very enlightening.

904
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 3: I think Lenny has an opportunity here to really make

905
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 3: up for a lot of years in which she was

906
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 3: way too passive and way too on the sidelines. And

907
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 3: I think in part it's because when you are a

908
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 3: lawyer and family court, you are so aware of how

909
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 3: bad things can go. You really do want to stay

910
00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: away from it. But sometimes you stay too far away

911
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 3: from it, and I think he did.

912
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 1: I definitely think that his work informed some of his decisions,

913
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: but I think it went much deeper than that. I

914
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: think it was so painful for him, and sometimes when

915
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: something is so painful, we don't want to feel. Every

916
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: time he would kind of stick his neck out a

917
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 1: little bit and he would get that rejection. It was

918
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: just too much to bear. And from Julia's perspective, I

919
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 1: imagine she thought, well, why isn't my dad fighting for me?

920
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: That's the one piece of information we got from her.

921
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 3: And unfortunately, probably her mom told her all kinds of

922
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 3: reasons why her dad wasn't fighting for her, and then

923
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 3: when she doesn't hear from him, it just validates what

924
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 3: her mom has been saying.

925
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: And when she said that to him, you didn't fight

926
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: for me as a teenager, I think what she needed

927
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: to hear was tell me more about that, because I

928
00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 1: have a different impression of that I want to hear

929
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,280
Speaker 1: what your experience was. And I think that he's opening

930
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 1: the door now to say I really think about you.

931
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 1: I care. I screwed up. I didn't communicate that to you,

932
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: and I want to hear about you and your life

933
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: and your experience.

934
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 3: And I agree with you that I think it goes

935
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 3: deeper than the professional stuff. And that's why I'm really

936
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 3: curious to hear how two weeks of fighting will impact him.

937
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 1: What I heard a lot of was, well, we tried everything,

938
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 1: but I don't think they tried everything. So I want

939
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: to see what it's like when they have a task,

940
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 1: a specific concrete task of here's what it looks like

941
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: to try everything, and are they still going to find

942
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: that they're not able to do it?

943
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 3: Hopefully, between the two of them, they'll be able to

944
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 3: make some progress.

945
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapist from my Heart Radio. We'll

946
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: be back after a quick break. So, guy, we heard

947
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: from Patricia and Lenny and we gave them something really

948
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: hard to do. So let's hear what happened.

949
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 5: Hi, it's Patricia and Lennie, and here is the update

950
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 5: of the homework assignment you gave to us. So Lenny

951
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 5: you go first.

952
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 6: Wow, it was not easy.

953
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 7: In fact, the first couple of days were still very stressful. However,

954
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:04,720
Speaker 7: I did reach out to Jolia every day.

955
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 6: And I reached out to her in several different ways.

956
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 7: I would say, able to get a phone number, and

957
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 7: I would leave some voicemails. I then left some text

958
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 7: messages and I sent letters. So the first couple of

959
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 7: days were still very stressful, but I made sure to

960
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,240
Speaker 7: make a phone call and leave a voice message the

961
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 7: second day because I felt that that was the hardest

962
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 7: thing to do and.

963
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 6: I needed to deal with Dad head on.

964
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 7: And I would say that it did become easier after that,

965
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 7: although even as recently as yesterday I called and it

966
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 7: was still I found it stressful beforehand. Yesterday was Julie's birthday,

967
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 7: so I did leave her a message and sank to

968
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 7: her happy birthday, And.

969
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 6: All in all, it gave me a good feeling to

970
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 6: do this.

971
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 7: I felt that it was important. I felt that it

972
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 7: even transferred over to my daily life. I felt that

973
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 7: I was a little more proactive in initiating different things,

974
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 7: and I intend to continue to do this for the

975
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 7: ensuing year. As you had suggested, I may modify how

976
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 7: I do it, but I wanted to be meaningful and

977
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 7: regular and not to become rote and just annoying to her,

978
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 7: So thank you very much.

979
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 5: Okay, So my part was to observe how he was

980
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 5: these two weeks, and I have to say that all

981
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:53,760
Speaker 5: in all, surprisingly so, he was pretty calm. He likes

982
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 5: to use the word agitated when he gets anxious or upset,

983
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 5: so I would say that his agitation level was pretty

984
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 5: low other than right before a couple of the phone calls,

985
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 5: but other than that, he was.

986
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: Basically in a good mood.

987
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 5: I feel that he felt a bit more empowered, and

988
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 5: it did carry over certain specifics into more proactivity, doing

989
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 5: things without being reminded so much, taking care of certain

990
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 5: things again on his own, and I think it was

991
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 5: a positive experience and I do hope that he will

992
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 5: continue it into the year. As you said, to be

993
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 5: re elected as her father.

994
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: Thanks.

995
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 5: This was a great opportunity and a great conversation. We've

996
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 5: had very enlightening and a very interesting homework assignment.

997
00:57:53,400 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: Thanks again. So what I loved about what happened was

998
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: that he went from a place of feeling helpless and

999
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 1: like there was nothing he could do about this situation

1000
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: to becoming proactive, and even though he hasn't gotten a

1001
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: result yet and we were not expecting that he would

1002
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: get a result at this point, it changed his way

1003
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: of feeling about himself and also who he is in

1004
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: the world that it seemed to have translated more generally

1005
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: for him, according to both him and Patricia.

1006
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 3: That's the interesting thing about both helplessness and on the

1007
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 3: other side, proactivity. They're a bit contagious, both of them are.

1008
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 3: So when you feel really helpless in one domain, it

1009
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 3: often spreads into other domains. But then when you want

1010
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 3: to kick out of that, if you can get really

1011
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 3: proactive in one specific area, it will spill over into

1012
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 3: other areas as well. And it's great to remember that

1013
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 3: that you don't have to address the issue in the

1014
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 3: domain it's at. You can literally sometimes do it in

1015
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 3: a parallel place and it will still carry over.

1016
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the piece it's important here is

1017
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 1: that he was doing something, not just proactively, but differently,

1018
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 1: that he is taking responsibility instead of defending himself and

1019
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: trying to say, well, I don't understand. I was there

1020
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: for you. I tried to be there for you. You're

1021
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: the one who didn't want to see me his new approaches.

1022
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 1: I realized that in some ways I failed you, and

1023
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: you're very hurt, and I want to hear more about that,

1024
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: and I'm interested in your experience. Now. I don't know

1025
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: how much he's able to communicate that in the kinds

1026
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 1: of messages he's leaving, but I hope that that is

1027
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: the gist of his messages, so that she knows that

1028
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: he's approaching her from that perspective.

1029
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 3: And the cherry on the cake for me was when

1030
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 3: he said, I'm going to try and vary it up

1031
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 3: so he doesn't get wrote. So I've put thought into

1032
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 3: it so it's meaningful each time. To me, that's the

1033
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 3: best thing he said, because it means that his heart

1034
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 3: is really in it, and hopefully that will come across

1035
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 3: to Julia. Hey Felow travelers, if you've used any of

1036
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 3: our advice from the podcast in your own life, send

1037
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 3: us a quick voice memo to Guy at iHeartMedia dot

1038
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 3: com and tell us about it. We may include it

1039
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 3: in a future show that brings us to the end

1040
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 3: of our show for this week. Thank you so much

1041
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 3: for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please take a

1042
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 3: moment to rate and review it.

1043
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot

1044
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb

1045
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 1: one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

1046
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

1047
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 3: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd

1048
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 3: like to discuss with us, big or small, email us

1049
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 3: at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1050
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis were produced and edited by

1051
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

1052
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 1: podcast Fairygodmother Katie Couric. So this episode marks the middle

1053
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 1: of our first season, and we're going to be taking

1054
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: a brief break, but don't go away because when we

1055
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: come back, a woman struggles with resentment to or her sister,

1056
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 1: who always seems like the perfect sibling to their parents.

1057
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 8: Sometimes I think, oh, I should be better at this.

1058
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 8: I should ask them more questions, because that's what Jill

1059
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 8: does when she's there. She writes questions for the night

1060
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 8: and has people discuss memories and labels, the antiques.

1061
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 3: And oh my goodness, she is Mary Puppies.

1062
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it's like I can't compete with that. I

1063
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 8: don't know how to do that.

1064
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio