1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Our 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: compatriot Noel is on the road, but we'll be returning 6 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: at some point in the future. They call me Ben. 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: We are joined with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decade. 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for saving the show. As always, Paul, the most importantly, 9 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: you are you. You are here, and that makes this 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know, Matt. Today we 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: are taking a journey back in time. Yes, time traveling again, 12 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: that's one of my favorite things to do. That's true, 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: that's true. And of course there's the great point that 14 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: people makes sometimes that we're all time travelers. Were just 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: moving in the toward the future. One second, per I 16 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: don't know. Second, yes, it's definitely at an even clip. Well, 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: you know what, this might be an episode, This might 18 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: be for another episode better suited to a different line 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: of thinking. But time is you know, it's all relative. Yeah, right, 20 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: as doctor who said, what was it? Timey whimy stuff? 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: Are you a doctor who fan? No? I totally thought 22 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: you were going to say Doctor Who, because that's that's 23 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: the first thing I did when someone told me about 24 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: it as a kid. It's a it's a great show, 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: and I have seen several episodes, and I'm not like, 26 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: you know who, a Doctor Who had I don't know 27 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: what the Huvian who Who enthusiasts Yep, all right, uh right, 28 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: and let us know what Doctor Who fans are called, 29 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: or what the self describe as our time travel today 30 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: takes us back to the beginning of the United States, 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: back to a time when it was the odds were 32 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: looking pretty dicey for the colonists, the would be Americans, right, Yeah, 33 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: they decided to buck the whole system and fight their controllers. Yeah. 34 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: They went the bold, bold move. They went rage against 35 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: the machine. Right. So this, uh, this is a story 36 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: that you and I stumbled on a long, long time 37 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: ago in a different episode. And it's surprised. I don't 38 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 1: know about you, Matt, but it's surprised the heck out 39 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: of me. Oh yeah. The the the fact that espionage 40 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: dates back this far and was as um complicated as 41 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 1: we're the story we're gonna talk about today, there was 42 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: astounding to me. Yeah, you hit it. You you hit 43 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: on the word of the day or a word of 44 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: the day. Espionage, right, Espionage is a tale as old 45 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: as time, or, in the case of this country, at 46 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,559 Speaker 1: least as old as the state. Espionage actually predates the 47 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: uh Actually, colonial espionage predates the existence of the United States. 48 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 1: This sort of stuff occurred when the idea of what 49 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: we now call the US was nothing more than a 50 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: weird twinkle in the eyes of various founding fathers and 51 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: would be rulers of a new nation. Most of us 52 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: associate the concept of spies and spycraft with works of fiction, right, 53 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, like, what are some of your favorites? Oh gosh, well, 54 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: I mean you have to go back to Double O seven, 55 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: I think the original at least for me, which is 56 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: weird because technically wouldn't he be the seventh one? Yeah, exactly, exactly, 57 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: but yeah, James Bond, right, oh yeah, And and characters 58 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: that you find in stories like Mission Impossible. I remember, 59 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: really cool some of the concepts in there. And then 60 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: if you go There's there were some Netflix shows back 61 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: in the day that were surrounding espionage around World War 62 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: Two that I found the most fascinating because of the 63 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: the technology they were dealing with at the time and 64 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: the stakes being so high as they were. I think 65 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: that's why I found that to be the most fascinating. 66 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: Although I can't tell you the name of the stakes 67 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: is it as T A K E. S Right, It 68 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: wasn't just a spy show featuring like these amazing ribbis 69 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: and t bones, stacks of them, just stacks of them, 70 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: and then also spine. I would watch that show. Yeah, 71 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: I know what you're I kind of know what you're 72 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: thinking about, if not the specific episode the trope, because 73 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed the television show The Americans. Oh yeah, 74 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: which have you seen that? So that that show gets 75 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: lauded often for being a I don't know about an 76 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: entirely realistic depiction, but a pretty good depiction of how 77 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: deep cover sleeper agents would actually work. So we see 78 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: spycraft and espionage in all sorts of works of fiction. 79 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: But we also know that strange real life accusations of 80 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 1: spine pop up every so often in the news cycle, 81 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: and usually when they pop up, they disappear pretty quickly. Yeah, 82 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: like a diplomat will get in trouble, but it's just 83 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: some unnamed diplomat and then it goes away right right, 84 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: Or three hikers will get will get caught crossing the 85 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: border into Iran, three American hikers and then they'll be 86 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: arrested as spies. The DPRK accuses people of being spies 87 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: fairly often. Does it ever make you wonder if there 88 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: are spies caught internally within the United States, but we 89 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: just never hear anything about it. Oh, sure, they just 90 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: disappear basically, Like there's the case of Jonathan Pollard, an 91 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: American who spied for Israel and was and was caught. 92 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: I think he was sentenced to life in prison for 93 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: violating the Espionage Act, but later surprised he didn't have 94 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: to do that. I think it was after thirty years 95 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: of incarceration he was released on November two thousand and fifteen. 96 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: So some spies have been exposed and then serve their time, 97 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: or somehow not been killed and have been able to 98 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: continue living their lives, So it is possible to get 99 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: away with it. Your odds are not very good. They 100 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: were especially not that great in the Revolutionary War because 101 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: in the Revolutionary War on the colonial side, your odds 102 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: in general weren't spectacular. No, not at all. So the 103 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: Revolutionary War. We all kind of know what that is. Uh, 104 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: they call it, I think the War for American Independence 105 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: in other countries. But down here, this is the revolutionary War. 106 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: We're very, very self important about it, and I think 107 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: we've earned the right to be. The seeds of democracy 108 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: had already been planted in the colonies. People were already 109 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: thinking about becoming an independent country well before seventeen seventy six. 110 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: The war went from seventeen seventy six to seventeen eighty three, 111 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: ended by the Treaty of Paris. And when we look 112 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: back at this war and the nation created, it's incredibly 113 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: important to remember that the government that was put into place, 114 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: or I guess that existed on paper, was see like, 115 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: it seemed like a crazy thing. It seemed to be 116 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: an insane notion. How could you how could you rule 117 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: without a king? How close did George Washington come to 118 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: becoming the king? Right has been said that the the 119 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: presidency itself, the way it was created, was specifically to 120 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: prevent any one man from becoming king because of you know, 121 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: the way the way the country was set up, with 122 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: dividing powers up and not calling the president. Certain things 123 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: not referring to them in that way. Um, it was 124 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: it was an active move to move away from a monarchy, 125 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: right right. Again, that's the that's the official narrative. And 126 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: we have an old episode on the unofficial Narratives that 127 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: you can check out, but it's several years old now, right, Oh, yeah, 128 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: it's back in the day. So they wanted something different 129 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: that they did not want to practice resource extraction for 130 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: the benefit of the kingdom across the pond. They did 131 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: not want to pay taxes. They were very much against that, 132 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: and they knew that due to the huge stretch of 133 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: the Atlantic Ocean, even the world's most powerful naval force 134 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to uh, to win the war easily. 135 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: The problem was that even before the war actually broke out, 136 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: the U. S forces knew their odds of success were dangerously, 137 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: dangerously low. And the colonial leaders, even the really optimistic ones, 138 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: knew that if they were able to win independence, they 139 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: would be literally paying for it in blood. Yeah. And uh, 140 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: there's an historian, David McCullough who wrote a book called 141 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: seventeen seventies six which we would recommend. Um, the Americans 142 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: suffered terrible, just horrendous losses roughly twenty five thousand casualties 143 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: in all, or roughly about one percent of the entire 144 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: colonial population, which if you think about that in like 145 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: equivalent terms to today, that would be as though if 146 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: there was a modern war within the United States on 147 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: American soil that cost three million United States citizens lives. 148 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: That's the an intense thought. And as McCullough says, those 149 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: who have been with Washington and who knew what a 150 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: close call it was at the beginning, I thought the outcome, 151 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: the ultimate outcome of the Revolutionary War, was a little 152 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: short of a miracle, the kind of thing that makes 153 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: you say, for instance, hey, I'm not exactly a spiritual person, 154 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: but is this a coincidence or is this destiny? Because 155 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: so much stuff had to go right, Modern historians have 156 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: speculated that if the colonist hadn't caught a number of 157 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: key breaks, the rebellion might have been crushed. American colonies 158 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: would have remained under the rule of King George, and 159 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: the ringleaders would have been executed in horrific ways. The 160 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: people probably would have been um forced to pay a 161 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: punitive tax. It would have made the situation increasingly unsustainable. 162 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: But the war occurred, and as you know in the 163 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: Hamilton's musical that comes up whenever we do a recutionary 164 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: war episode. Uh, the there was this huge perception that 165 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:08,359 Speaker 1: the US forces were outmanned and outgunned. I think it's outgunned, outmanned, 166 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: and I don't remember the next part. There's actually a 167 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: lyric in there, right, I don't know which song is that, 168 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: right hand man, right hand man, Oh man, I need 169 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: to listen. It's been almost a year since. I think 170 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: it's right hand soundtrack. Yeah, we'll have to listen to 171 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: it after this or Paul, Uh, do you want to 172 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: just play it low under the entire Yeah. So it 173 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: is true that the United Kingdom had certain advantages. Um, 174 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: it's not so much the number of people they had, 175 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: but it's the experience those people had and the organization 176 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: or disciplined that the British soldiers possessed. But in the 177 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: end it kind of was one of the things that 178 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: led to their downfall. Not necessarily would because of the 179 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: use of grilla tactics. Oh that's right, yes, were they 180 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: had Napoleonic warfare versus grilla tactics. Yeah, that's a good point. 181 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: Met At the height of the war. On the U 182 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: S side, around eighty thousand members of the Continental Army 183 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: or militia members were active in service. Oddly enough, on 184 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: the British side, there were only about fifty six thousand 185 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: British soldiers, but they were joined by thirty thousand German 186 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: mercenaries known as Hessians. And in Sleepy Hollow, the Johnny 187 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: Depp version of it, that's the Christopher Watkins characters a 188 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: Hessian at the very beginning, that's the Headless Horseman. It's 189 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the movie. Right, you're saying it's 190 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: an allegory of some sort. I don't know, perhaps, or 191 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: perhaps Hessians were just seen as scary characters due to 192 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: their the role they played in this war. But the 193 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: would be Americans, which I guess we have to call 194 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: the colonists at this time, had some surprising advantages. Yeah. First, 195 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: the main one is that they're fighting in a place 196 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: that they know, they know the terrain, they know at 197 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,599 Speaker 1: advantageous spots and and locations. Um, they're home, they're on 198 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: home turf, and they didn't have to mess with any 199 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: kind of real logistical things with supply chains, especially ones 200 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: that they would cross a major ocean like the Atlantic, 201 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: the way the British had to do in the Germans. 202 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: But second, they could easily in theory, replenish their ranks 203 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: if soldiers died because they could just get some more 204 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: people there. Now, those people wouldn't be trained necessarily or 205 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: even ready for battle in any way, but you could 206 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: put bodies on the front lines or whatever lines you 207 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: required something to put in front of the cannons. But yes, 208 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: it is You're absolutely right that supply chain problem was huge, 209 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: and supply chains there is still a huge problem in 210 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: modern warfare today. Yeah, logistics of warfare is probably I mean, 211 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: the biggest guns are important. But if you don't have 212 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: a good supply chain to not only feed people and 213 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: get supplies and other things that you need to your 214 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: the human beings that are there performing the work, you're 215 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: you're screwed. Yeah. And then on the colonists side, at 216 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: this time, there's a big question of finance. How how 217 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: on earth do we pay for this? Right? Yeah, and 218 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: we just talked about that in our live show. That 219 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: is true. That is true through the creation of the 220 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: first Central Bank. Thanks Hamilton's what a creative name. Uh 221 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: So they they there were people who said should we 222 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: abandon all hope. Is this a not only horrific endeavor 223 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: but ultimately a fruitless one. It was clear that the 224 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: war would be a clue thing, possibly losing conflict for 225 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: the Americans, with brutal consequences for anyone, not just for 226 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: anyone active in the rebellion, but anyone who wasn't an 227 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: active British loyalist. They would, they would, the population would 228 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: bear the punishment. Right, This thing didn't succeed, But unbeknownst 229 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: to most, the colonists still had a few tricks up 230 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: their sleeves. Oh yeah. One of the most important aspects 231 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: of the colonial military was this extensive spy network that 232 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: they had been building and were continuing to build. Uh. 233 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: It was. It was this huge apparatus that in its 234 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: own way, became as important as the weapons, the cannons 235 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: that the that the colonists had to fire at somebody, 236 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: because they had people on the inside everywhere. In fact, 237 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: this intelligence network was so stink and good that even today, 238 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: mysteries about this time and this network remain unsolved. Oh 239 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: you know what that sounds like. Time for a word 240 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: from our sponsor. That's exactly what it sounds like. Here's 241 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. So intelligence work is fundamentally American. 242 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: The creation of this nation is inseparable from the creation 243 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: of this nation's intelligence network. Military and civilian leaders of 244 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: the American Revolution didn't just use espionage, covert action, counterintelligence, 245 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: deception and cryptanalysis two offset the British Army's advantage. They 246 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: used it very well. They were very very good at it, 247 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: and the techniques they employed were pretty sophisticated even by 248 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: today's standards. And when the history book look back at 249 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: the things that the Americans did the heroes of the Revolution, 250 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: a lot of times they'll look over names like Agent 251 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: seven eleven, which is hilarious when they're talking about people 252 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: like John Bolton or George Washington or perhaps Patrick Henry Um. 253 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: But they should because as we're gonna as you're gonna 254 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: learn here, as we learned, they were as important or 255 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: integral to the effort as any of those big names 256 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: that we just mentioned, right right, Agent it's gonna crack 257 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: me up. And John Bolton different John, not not the 258 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: John who's currently uh serving in the US now correct, 259 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: He's not some ancient centuries old vampire. It was John Bolton. 260 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: Should be kind of cool. We're vampires in office, That's 261 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: what I say. Well, in the so, these guys were 262 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: part of something. Oh yes, sorry I was. I started 263 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: daydreaming Walter Midi style about vampires in office. I am 264 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: pretty on board with it. But um, you're right, Matt. 265 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: They were part of something that a lot of people 266 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: were unaware of, a spy ring called the Culper Ring. 267 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: And these people's identities were kept secret until well after 268 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: the war ended. In seventeen seventy eight, guy named Benjamin Talmadge, 269 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: a young American officer who was George Washington's new chief 270 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: of intelligence, organized this top secret network of spies. Several 271 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: of these people. It's important to note we're just otherwise 272 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: ordinary citizens, no military experience, no political ambitions per se. 273 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: Some of them. In fact, we're probably just the idle 274 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: rich who had meetings with specific people right who on 275 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: the surface were British loyalists, you know what I mean, 276 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: and probably had British representatives at their house, and they 277 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 1: talked about how best to keep down the peasants in 278 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: the filth absolutely, and and they were so secretive about 279 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: this that even Washington, the guy in charge of everybody, 280 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: the entire military, the country, that is being born. He said, no, no, 281 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: I don't even want to know who these people are. 282 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: Do not tell me. Oh yeah. It was a huge 283 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,959 Speaker 1: deal to him that he not known and that as 284 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: few people knew as possible because they didn't want there 285 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: to be anyway that the ring might be compromised. So 286 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: for recruits, Tom Midge turns to people that he already knows, 287 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: people who he made friends with in his hometown on 288 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: Long Island. Because how do you trust somebody enough to 289 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: be a spy? Like building trust to get someone to 290 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: be a spy? It's no uh, it's no short order. 291 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: There's there's a lot of work you gotta put into that. 292 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, and even today there the process to 293 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: just work at the FBI or work at the CIA 294 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: involves exhaustive vetting. Also, we should point out that a 295 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,479 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of those images of a quote 296 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: C I a spy get romanticized and fiction. Oftentimes a 297 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: spy is going to be a resident of a country 298 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: that you know, they already live in this country and 299 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: they just got turned one way or another into an 300 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: asset and then they're just years and I but there 301 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: are real you know, there are real James bonds out there. 302 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: They're just far fewer than you might think, right. So 303 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: this guy is looking to build some bonds, to build 304 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: some real spies, and he chooses a guy named Abraham 305 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: Woodhole to be his his agent, sort of his man 306 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: on the ground. But wood Hold, who was code named 307 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: Samuel Kolper Sr. Soon fell a foul of British counterintelligence 308 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: because he kept traveling to Manhattan and they were like, 309 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: what are you doing here? What's your bus? He's like, 310 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: I just really love the park talking about but he 311 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: so wood Hall has has some moves, he's got some moxie. 312 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: What's he do well? He he actually recruited a relative 313 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: who happened to be living with his sister in there 314 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: in her Manhattan boarding house. This guy was a dry 315 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: goods merchant. He was also a society reporter and his 316 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: name was Robert Townsend, but his real name was Samuel 317 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: Kulper Jr. Re name when he was walking around. So 318 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: his junior and senior at this point. So now they're 319 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: a family. It's now they're a family. So they need 320 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: some technology and they want to disguise their activities. They 321 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,239 Speaker 1: have a couple of different methods and techniques. One of 322 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: the strangest is that they used a type of invisible 323 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: ink that was developed here in the States and could 324 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: only be you know, read under certain circumstances. They developed 325 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: a cipher so they would write encode and they were 326 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: quite good at this. They were quite accomplished. They were 327 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: not perfect, and we'll explore we'll explore the bumps in 328 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: the road they encounter, but for today's episode, we have 329 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: to focus on the most mysterious member of the Copra ring. 330 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: This Agent was a person or persons known only by 331 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: the code name Agent three fifty five. Better than seven eleven. 332 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: It is, It is much better than seven eleven. And 333 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: for comic book fans, if you've read Why the Last Man, 334 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: you will see there's there's an Agent three five in 335 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: the story and it comes from this real historical person. 336 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: So here's what here's what we know about Agent. Because 337 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: you're like, WHOA A is such a badass and Why 338 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: the Last Man? I can't believe there's a person really 339 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: like this. There may have been, we don't know. That's 340 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: the thing. There's no real historical consensus about who this 341 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: person was, what they really did, even uh, even what 342 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: happened to them. We just know that they were alive 343 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 1: and an active spy. Things got attributed to them. Yeah, 344 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: there we go. That's a more fair way to say it, Matt. 345 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: This person is so sketchy that two hundred years later 346 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: we have over two hundred years later, we have no 347 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: idea who they are, and maybe we never will, but 348 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: we do know the things that were attributed to them 349 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: were stunning and spectacular acts of spycraft. So how do 350 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: we know they're even real? That's that's square one, right. 351 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: We know that because there is one direct reference to 352 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: Agent three and any of the culport Ring letters or correspondencies. 353 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: It is a letter from Abraham Woodhull, Remember that's Culper 354 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: senior to George Washington when several spies have been exposed 355 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: and arrested, and what would hall describer has met one 356 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: who hath been ever serviceable to this correspondence? That's right her. Yeah. 357 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: Not only was Agent three one of the most accomplished 358 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: the mysterious of the Culper spies, but many experts today 359 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: believe Agent three fifty five may have been a woman 360 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: or even a group of women. And this is based 361 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: on the fact that the colpor Ring coding system. Uh 362 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: this this phrase or this number three fifty five actually 363 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: meant within their cipher, it meant lady. And there's not 364 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: much other proof than that she. Let's let's assume that 365 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: Agent three fifty five is indeed a woman. She worked 366 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: with the American Patriots during the Revolutionary War. You would 367 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: have been recruited by Woodhull rather than Talmudge. They're guessing 368 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: because of the way her reports coincided with British visits 369 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: to New York City. So the fact that they call 370 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: three fifty five, the fact that three means lady doesn't 371 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: just imply, you know, gender, It also implies social standing, right, 372 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 1: it means she probably had some kind of I don't know, 373 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what you would call this um prominence. Yeah, affluent, 374 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,239 Speaker 1: maybe socially connected. So she was likely living in New 375 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: York City. We know at some point Agent three had 376 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 1: contact with Major John andre and Benedict Arnold, one of 377 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: the only bad bends. Well there's Benito Mussolini. Yeah, there's 378 00:25:53,880 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: Benedict Arnold, There's Benjamin Bratt. That'll just show days. So 379 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: at it. I don't either. I just like the alliteration. 380 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: You know what, Matt, what if this is how we 381 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: find out. He's a terrible person. I know, because I'm like, yeah, 382 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: I really like this dude. Oh okay, yeah, we we will. 383 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: We are unsure about Benjamin Bratt. That is our official stats. Undecided, undecided. 384 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: Hang on, I'll ask Paul, Paul, do you know anything 385 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: about Benjamin Bratt. He's just shaking his head. Okay, he 386 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: looked up, He's like, what are they talking about? So 387 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: away from Benjamin Bratt back to Benedictonald, Major John Andre. 388 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: There's pretty solid speculation that three passed along the information 389 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: that exposed Benedict Arnold as a trader and led to 390 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: the arrest of Major John Andre, who was captured with 391 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: maps of West Point and a pass signed by Arnold 392 00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: in his possession. So Benjamin Tom Midges memoirs reveal this 393 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: struggle to prevent the news of the major's capture from 394 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: reaching Benedict Donald, because as soon as Benedict here is 395 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: that someone's been exposed, he's gonna high tail it. Andre 396 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: confessed and then he was hanged. So around this time, 397 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: Abraham Woodhole's correspondence that's Colper Senior, indicates that Robert Townsend 398 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: and other colpor ring members fled New York city, they 399 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: went into hiding. Something went sours, something went south, something 400 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: was rotten in Denmark. Somebody knew, somebody knew too much. Um. 401 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: Well yeah. But then then after about two weeks, they 402 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: saw that there was some kind of decline in whatever 403 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: heat they were experiencing, uh, decline in Tampa's and they 404 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: returned yeah, which they probably shouldn't have done, because that's when, 405 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: you know, we said, there's that one direct reference to three. 406 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: That's when wood Hole had to inform Talmage about and 407 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: Washington about the arrest of quote several of our dear friends, 408 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: including one who has ever been serviceable to this correspondence, 409 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: which was as close as they would come to saying, Okay, 410 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: the jig is up exactly. Let's look at how that 411 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: occurred and then see if we can make any guesses 412 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: towards Agent three identity, which remains again unknown in the 413 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: modern day. And we'll get right back to that after 414 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor. So, Matt, what do we 415 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: know about the roundup of the suspected American spies. Well, 416 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: let's go back to Major John Andre. When the proverbial 417 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: trap closed on him, it triggered this whole other thing 418 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: around up of suspects who were living in British occupied territory, 419 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: And there was a pregnant female spy who was arrested 420 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: and questioned, but she refused to reveal any information of 421 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: her activities or even who the father of her child was. 422 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: So it's a double mystery wrapped in a burrito mystery 423 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: floating in a nice enigma sauce. So this spy was 424 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: held aboard a prison ship called the HMS Jersey. The 425 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: HMS Jersey was famous for being squalid and just a terrible, terrible, 426 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: terrible place, even in the realm of ship prisons. Yeah, 427 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: one of the last places you want to end up, right, 428 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: and the life expectancy in these prison ships was, um, 429 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: you're not saying there for years, Yeah, like several months. 430 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: The good news is you won't be that miserable for 431 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: that long because you die. Such good news. Infection in starvation, abuse, violence, terrible, 432 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: terrible place. But she remember she was pregnant. She actually 433 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: gave birth there. Yeah, she, according to this story, gave 434 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: birth to a boy. But she died aboard the ship. 435 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: And then the reports from the Coulport Ring decay significantly. 436 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: Even after Robert Townsend goes back to spying. There's a 437 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: lot of speculation concerning Robert Townsend and this expectant female 438 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: spy because according to letters from the towns and family 439 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: and the relatives and their loved ones, he was never 440 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,719 Speaker 1: the same after this person passed away. He lived out 441 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: his days depressed, he never got married, He drank like 442 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: a thirsty fish. And this, coupled with you know, the 443 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: female spies pregnancy, and his activities leading up to and 444 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: during the arrest, caused some experts to spare gulate that 445 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: he was actually the father of this child and that 446 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: this spy, if she were Agent threeft, was his common 447 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: law wife. Yeah, and then there's a legend that when 448 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: the boy that was born ended up being named Robert 449 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: Townsend Jr. But a lot of academics kind of poo 450 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: poo this idea or they debunk it. Feel like it's 451 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: just sort of conveniently romantic, right, Yeah, it make it 452 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: would make for a great book. We do know that 453 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: once he had news of this roundup or this search 454 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: for spies, people who suspect Townsend did attempt to steal 455 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: a ton of money and high tail is skitaddle probably 456 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: with this person. If the story is true, one wonder 457 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: if it was just out of fear. Um, But who knows. 458 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,959 Speaker 1: It's weird because you can go on the official CIA 459 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: website and you'll see arguments that imply they accept this claim. 460 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: M hm. So that's that's what we do know about 461 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: Agent three. There is, however, a tantalizing bit of extra 462 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: information in terms of this this kid's story. Oh yeah, 463 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: this this little boy who became a man. Robert Townsend Jr. Um. 464 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: He was a son of James Townsend and also a 465 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: brother of Robert Sr. He he became a lawyer, he 466 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: went into politics, and oddly enough, maybe not that oddly, 467 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: because we know who his mother is, right, Um. One 468 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: of his pet projects as a lawyer was the prison 469 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: Ship Martyrs Memorial Fund, which eventually became the prison Ship 470 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: Martyrs Monument at Fort Green Park in New York. Coincidence, 471 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it just has more to do 472 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: with who his mom was, right, Not a prison ship. 473 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: Well we don't know that that was his mother. Oh 474 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: oh so okay, yeah, So there's a mystery, a footman, 475 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: a mystery that remains, and that leads us to what 476 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: we don't know about Agent three, which is literally anything 477 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: else any any stuff other than the wild guesses that 478 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: we've seen. The speculation from historians at one mentioned in 479 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: one letter one direct reference rather other than that, absolutely 480 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: nothing concrete is known about her other than when the 481 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: British leaders were in New York, information came to General 482 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: Washington and incredibly quick and prodigious rate. But when those 483 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: British leaders left town, the information slowed down to a trickle. 484 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, probably lived in New York. But who is 485 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: Agent three? There? There are a couple of possibilities, and 486 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: maybe we can start with just some rough demographic stuff 487 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: and work a way up to specific names. One possibility 488 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: is that she was a well bred lady. What a 489 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: weird term. It just it means probably from a wealthy 490 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: family from New York, within the upper crusts of society, 491 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: and she was probably this family was probably a loyalist 492 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: family to the British, to the British government, and uh, 493 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: you just have to imagine. One of the reasons this 494 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,479 Speaker 1: is a good possibility is because such a position would 495 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: have given her access to visiting officials just by having 496 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: a meeting, having a dinner, or having officers over for 497 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: any reason or another, especially if they're living in a 498 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: kind of lavishly in New York a social function. Yeah, 499 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have a social function up here in New 500 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: York City. This is not how people talk in New 501 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: York City, I hope it is. Why it would be 502 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: such a delight merriment well that Lecks. Wouldn't it be 503 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: great if if everybody talked like if the early colonists 504 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: had like New York accents, like real, like creating New 505 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: York accents like full on tell the British to get 506 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: at a exactly, that'd be wonderful. Yeah, you know what, 507 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,439 Speaker 1: I would be into that. So there's that. But that's 508 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: a that's a really good guestiment, isn't it. Demographic guests. 509 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: There's the other possibility that maybe she was agent three. 510 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: Again we're assuming three woman. There's this other possibility that 511 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: three was in one of these great houses of note 512 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: she was with a well bred family, to borrow that 513 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: terrible term, having constant contact with these officers, but not 514 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: as an equal, perhaps as a servant, a maid in 515 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: a house where British soldiers slept or were quartered or yes, 516 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: yes exactly. And from these guests, as we can go 517 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: to some specific names, you'll hear people such as Anna 518 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: Strong proposed as Agent three five. She was a known 519 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: member of the Coulper spy Ring and she was Abraham 520 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: Woodholes neighbor. She she had a cool These people all 521 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: have her specialties, right like crew cool stick was that 522 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: she would convey messages via the way she hung laundry 523 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: on her clothesline. That is so cool. It makes you 524 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: paranoid when you when you learn about how people signal things, 525 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: Everything is a sign, now, you know. I honestly, when 526 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: I see somebody bend over to tie their shoelaces, I know, 527 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: I know is that that is way too paranoid of me. 528 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: But I try not to stand around when they're doing that. 529 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 1: I get that sometimes and now I'm profiling. I'm basically 530 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: profiling people who have laces in their shoes. Dude. I 531 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: was driving by this dude the other day and he 532 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: just happened to bend like he liked, made eye contact 533 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: with me as I'm driving past. Then he bent down 534 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: to his backpack, and I did not like it one bit, Like, 535 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: what's happening? What would exchanges occurring here? What's the signal? YEA? Also, 536 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it would always seem like it 537 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: would be so much fun to perpetrate those sorts of 538 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: spy activities. Oh, just randomly, just like in a park 539 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: walked by and have walked by and switch suitcases with someone, 540 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: or do that thing where they're you know, back to 541 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: back benches and you sit on one one side of 542 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: the bench and the other person sits on the other 543 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: side facing away from you. Oh, that's great, and then 544 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: just remark about the passers by to the other person quietly. Oh. Man, 545 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: it just seems it seems like it would be It 546 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: would be fun because personally, if I saw somebody doing 547 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 1: a suitcase handoff, I would be I would be mystified, 548 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: it would make my day. These were not suitcase handoff 549 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: times though, These were messages and laundry and disappearing ink times. 550 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: But there are other candidates for three five correct. One 551 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: would be Sarah Horton Townsend. This is Robert Townsend's cousin. 552 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: And there's also Elizabeth Brugan or Bruin, who helped American 553 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: prisoners on British prison ships. And it's just trying. These 554 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: ideas are just looking at placement location, like what is 555 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: this a possibility? I mean, really, all of these are 556 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: just kind of um not reaching out in the dark, 557 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: because we've got these tiny little pieces, right, these bread crumbs, Well, 558 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: they're built on the assumption that three being lady meant 559 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: either a female spy or a specific female spy. And 560 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: all you can extrapolate from that is, hey, who were 561 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: the female spies active with the Copra ring in the 562 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: TV show Turn Washington Spies? Is that the show your 563 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: thinking about? Here we go? We got there? In Turn? 564 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: Agent three fifty is actually a former slave of Anna 565 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:12,399 Speaker 1: Strong who cantioned earlier. And that's that's that's it, that's 566 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: all we got. At this point, the cover up seems 567 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: to have been successful. More than two hundred years after 568 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War, we have no way of discerning the 569 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: true identity of Agent three fifty five. Is it possible 570 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,439 Speaker 1: that someone out there knows? Is it possible that one 571 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: of our fellow listeners has passed this family secret down 572 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,800 Speaker 1: the line for generations. Is there a reason why you 573 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,800 Speaker 1: would want to continue to keep it secret. Is it 574 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: possible that somewhere in a long neglected attic or dusty tome, 575 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 1: future historians might discover a new clue to three identity. 576 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: For now, it is difficult to say, but one thing 577 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: is for sure. The identity of Agent three fifty five 578 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: was and remains the stuff they don't want you to know. 579 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: And at least in this case, America's forefathers proved more 580 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: than capable of keeping it that way. Wow, so we 581 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: have to say they did a good job. I mean, 582 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: I know we knocked we knocked the government a little 583 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 1: bit occasionally here in this show. Oh yeah, absolutely. By 584 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: the way, I'm I'm so silly. Turn is a whole 585 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: different thing that I was also watching. I keep watching 586 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: all these spycraft shows. Turn is about this kind of 587 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: stuff back in the Revolutionary War, which is a great 588 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,479 Speaker 1: show in my opinion. But this other one was about 589 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: World War Two and I still can't remember. Yeah, wait, no, 590 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 1: let's let's let's figure this out. Let's let's guess some 591 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: um X company, um no, hotter culture. That's probably not 592 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: it either. Hogan's Heroes. Okay, that's what it was called. 593 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 1: It's great. It's a real hard hitting, hard hitting dark drama. There. 594 00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: I honestly cannot remember what it is it was, so 595 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: it too is a BBC show. I want to say, 596 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 1: I believe how about this, how about we ask our 597 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists for some help. Let us know what 598 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: some of your favorite spy shows are. Let us know 599 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: how you think the Uh if you want to practice 600 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: some counter factual history, let us know what you think 601 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: would have happened to this continent had the United States 602 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: not emerged independent from the Revolutionary War. And yes, of course, 603 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 1: if you think the US is still under the control 604 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 1: of the United Kingdom, Uh, why and what what is 605 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: the evidence? We'd love to hear it. We also have 606 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: that episode about whether the UK still controls the u S, 607 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: which is a surprisingly prominent belief. Yeah, it really is. 608 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: And when will British Royalty finally bring about the moon Child? 609 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 1: I mean we've been waiting for a long time, and um, 610 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: I don't I'm just bring that moon Child on it's time. Yeah, yeah, 611 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: I and very pro moon child, you know what I mean? Yeah, 612 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: I would totally bow down to the moon truck kind 613 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: of like the species has peaked. You know, I'm sorry, 614 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,879 Speaker 1: we're both talking about the same thing, right, Yeah? Yeah, 615 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: from the Invisibles, particularly cool the half human half our 616 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: god hybrid y Yeah, that comes through a mirror or something. 617 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: This sounds wild, but this is not even spoiling the invisibles. 618 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: It's chock full of that stuff, and we want to 619 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 1: thank you so much for diving into this history here 620 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 1: with what could have been. Well, I guess it's probably 621 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: not the most successful spy in US history because we 622 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: know they existed, and the most successful spies a ghosts. 623 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 1: Yeah right, Um, they're just traveling salespeople or something like that. 624 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: They're listening to this episode, if they will, thank you, 625 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: because you could have listened to so many other spy podcasts. 626 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: They have to listen to all of it. It's just 627 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: kind of it downloads. Okay, okay, well, still, we appreciate 628 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: your time. We hope that you enjoyed this episode, and 629 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. Those were not idle questions. 630 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: You can answer these questions on Instagram. You can find 631 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: us on Twitter. You can talk to us on Facebook. 632 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: We're big fans of our community page. Here's where it 633 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: gets crazy. But let's say you don't want to just 634 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: stick to the Internet. You want your physical voice to 635 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: leave an impression. We got you covered. Call us one 636 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: eight three three S T D W y t K. Yeah. Yeah, 637 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: it's Alpha Numerica. You just put that in there. Give 638 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: us a call you might get on the air, and 639 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: if you don't want to do any of those things whatsoever? 640 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: Right Paul Mission Control decond an email. You can find 641 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 1: him at conspiracy at how stuff works dot com.