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Speaker 1: The Volume.

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Speaker 2: Jenkins and Jones is brought to you by FanDuel. It's

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Speaker 2: never been easier to play fantasy on FanDuel. Whether you

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Speaker 2: love basketball, golf, soccer, or any other fantasy sport. There's

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Speaker 2: a contest for every fan fan duel more ways to win.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Jenkins and Jones on the Volume podcast network.

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Speaker 2: It is Thursday, October fourteenth, and here on the eve

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Speaker 2: of the NBA season, we have a very special episode

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Speaker 2: that is mostly a very long, extensive interview with Clint Smith,

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Speaker 2: who wrote How the Word Has Passed, which we just

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Speaker 2: finished reading as our second book for this year's book Club.

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Speaker 2: Great interview, I think, you know, maybe the best interview

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Speaker 2: we've had on the podcast. You definitely need to check

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Speaker 2: that out. As always, Jenkinson Jones hosted by my good

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Speaker 2: Internet slash real life buddies le Jethro Jenkins aka John

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Speaker 2: was that Bulbas Dragonfly Jones aka Tyler, and I'm.

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Speaker 3: GUARDI b a k A. Mike. Yes, we did. We

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Speaker 3: were recording that.

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Speaker 2: We did the interview with Clint first, so we're all

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Speaker 2: a little bit like spaced out because it was.

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Speaker 4: A great It was a great Now you normally, how

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Speaker 4: how did he make it to us.

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Speaker 5: Thank god, yes, South the Clinton man.

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Speaker 2: Let's start, we'll do some sports stuff up top and

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Speaker 2: then get to the interview and and maybe talk about

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Speaker 2: that for a second afterwards. But first of all, obviously

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Speaker 2: the off season that would never end uh for basketball

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Speaker 2: fans with Kyrie Irving has continued. The NETS did what

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Speaker 2: I think was the right thing in saying they're not

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Speaker 2: going to use the Kyrie loophold that they asked New

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Speaker 2: York to create for Kyrie, and they're now saying he

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Speaker 2: needs to be able to be a quote full participant

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Speaker 2: in order to be a member.

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Speaker 3: Of the team. You know.

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Speaker 2: Shout out, first of all, just to everyone in Brooklyn

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Speaker 2: and New York who people who are not engaged in politics.

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Speaker 2: I think made it clear to the NETS that this

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Speaker 2: was fucked up and that you know, their players should

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Speaker 2: not be getting loopholes that they don't have in their lives.

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Speaker 2: And respect to them for doing that, because who knows

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Speaker 2: where we'd be if they hadn't. But what was your

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Speaker 2: guys reaction to this news?

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Speaker 6: Okay, so we had a discussion a few weeks back

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Speaker 6: when this Kyrie news first broke about how narcissism is

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Speaker 6: the moral compass God and Kyrie through this whole situation.

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Speaker 6: And I want to come back to that because I

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Speaker 6: think that these recent developments that we got from that

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Speaker 6: article from Sham's further affirmed that, like, you know, we

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Speaker 6: discussed how you have to be a narcissist if you

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Speaker 6: think so highly of yourself that you genuinely believe that

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Speaker 6: you are more informed on these matters than medical experts

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Speaker 6: who have devoted their entire lives to this field, just

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Speaker 6: because you did like two hours of research on YouTube, right,

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Speaker 6: And we were talking in the group chat, and you know,

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Speaker 6: I mentioned how there's no telling what Kyrie's destination is

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Speaker 6: with all this.

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Speaker 5: We don't know.

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Speaker 6: I don't even think Kyrie knows, but we do know

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Speaker 6: the go of all of this, and I think his

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Speaker 6: goal is to be admired by the masses, because that's

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Speaker 6: what narcissists seek. Because you know, the thing about narcissist is,

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Speaker 6: no matter how much shit they talk about how they

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Speaker 6: march their own trum or how they don't bounce the crowd,

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Speaker 6: or how they're the lone alpha wolf or whatever the fuck,

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Speaker 6: they want to be admired. And they feel that their

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Speaker 6: old admiration because they believe everyone should think as highly

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Speaker 6: of them as they think of themselves. And this is

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Speaker 6: exhibit fucking a of that from Kyrie right here. You know,

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Speaker 6: he is someone who, like I said, he might posture

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Speaker 6: like he doesn't give a shit about what people think

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Speaker 6: about him, but he absolutely does. And that's who he

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Speaker 6: plays to. That's who he's always played to. Like you,

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Speaker 6: take a look at some of the previous stands that

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Speaker 6: he took right like, he railed against the media, got

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Speaker 6: a ton of support for that, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 5: The crowd went wild.

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Speaker 6: He took time off when he saw fit, got a

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Speaker 6: ton of support for that too, you know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 6: The crowd went wild. He pulled this anti backshit and

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Speaker 6: got booed off the stage, Bro that he check ain't drop,

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Speaker 6: you know what I'm saying. And now he's desperately trying

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Speaker 6: to win the crowd back. You know, you know cause

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Speaker 6: you're telling me when that rolling stone piece first dropped

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Speaker 6: and your aunt, your aunt went on record, bro, saying

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Speaker 6: that you didn't trust the science of this vaccine. And

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Speaker 6: now all of a sudden, when the big, bad, heartless

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Speaker 6: corporate machine that is the Brooklyn Nets puts their foot

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Speaker 6: down on little old Kyrie. Now you're switching your tune

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Speaker 6: and saying you're the voice of the little guy. Now

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Speaker 6: now was never about the science to go into bat

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Speaker 6: for the working man. I ain't buying it, Bro. Like

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Speaker 6: I said, Kyrie is definitely trying to win the crowd

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Speaker 6: back here and sway public favor back his way after

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Speaker 6: this heat check ain't drop. And you know, like I said,

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Speaker 6: we're all confused on Kyrie's destination. We talked about how

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Speaker 6: he's a contrarian without a cause, which very well.

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Speaker 5: Might be true, but I think it might be a

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Speaker 5: bit deeper than that.

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Speaker 6: I think he's just because right now he's looking like

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Speaker 6: a martyr who's looking for a cross to nail himself too,

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Speaker 6: and he might have found it with this vaccine situation.

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Speaker 5: So Tom will tell We'll see, Bro.

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Speaker 7: We bt that a lot of people didn't boot that

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Speaker 7: nigga though, you know what I mean, I wouldn't say

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Speaker 7: got booed off the stage, Like there's a a lot

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Speaker 7: of people that are are are are really supporting this man,

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Speaker 7: you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Not the people he thought though, not the people who

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Speaker 2: didn't like that he took time off because not everyone

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Speaker 2: was celebrating Not everyone was celebrating him taking time off

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Speaker 2: too right, But his people are people. People who listen

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Speaker 2: to our show were celebrating it. Those people are not

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Speaker 2: celebrating this. Ted Cruz is celebrating this.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if we talked about this in a

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Speaker 4: group chat.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 7: I agree he's a narcissist. I think the like I

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Speaker 7: think it comes from a sick place. I tweeted that

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Speaker 7: I think it's more rhythm, but he feels like he's

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Speaker 7: a MLK is more reminiscent of Kanye than me.

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Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 7: There's narcissm there, but there's really no purpose. So that's

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Speaker 7: why I don't. I don't know if he's trying.

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Speaker 4: I don't.

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Speaker 7: I just think he's a sick man, you know what

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Speaker 7: I mean, that doesn't have any real purpose.

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Speaker 4: I do think he's a narcissist.

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Speaker 7: I think he's contrarian, but I think that's a result

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Speaker 7: of like a sickness man, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: And what I'm tripping off.

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Speaker 7: Of is like dude, like we like I was talking

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Speaker 7: to my homie that has you know, insight to the

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Speaker 7: situation that I don't and most people don't write. And

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Speaker 7: he was saying that this was like with this situation

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Speaker 7: with him not letting him play period, that wasn't just

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Speaker 7: a team decision, that was a KD decision.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 7: And for that man to make that decision makes me

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Speaker 7: wonder how Kyrie is truly going to respond to that,

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Speaker 7: you know, like you said, we said, like, he may potentially,

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Speaker 7: you know, be like I you know, it was cool,

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Speaker 7: but I think there's a good chance that he's not.

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Speaker 7: He's like fucking because see that man is not like

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Speaker 7: being told what to do, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 7: As a result of all the things I listened earlier,

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Speaker 7: and we might not see Kyrie play basketball, and that

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Speaker 7: is that is fully on the table right now, and

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Speaker 7: that is wild to me, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 7: And also something that you thought looked top ago. So

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Speaker 7: maybe you're more prepared for it than I was. But

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Speaker 7: this is crazy. That's a wild thought that Kyrie I

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Speaker 7: did ask on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Was Tyler's two thousand and prediction two years ago that

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Speaker 2: Kyrie was going to retire at twenty nine, which is

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Speaker 2: the age he is now to start an alpaca farm.

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Speaker 2: Was that Was that a prediction or a curse?

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Speaker 4: Other thing?

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Speaker 5: We'll see bro.

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Speaker 6: Will will fuck Kyrie Gonna God damn be a contrary

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Speaker 6: and I guess some lamas instead knowing that much.

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Speaker 4: Nigga Domin strikes again.

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Speaker 5: Dog, you know what I mean? He said it.

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Speaker 4: But it's wild to see. It's wild to see.

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Speaker 7: But I was like, in the tweet that I tweeted,

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Speaker 7: I saw a lot of back people that it was.

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Speaker 4: There was laughter obviously, but there.

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Speaker 7: Was a lot of people going crazy as well, and

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Speaker 7: they're like coming at me, and I'm like, so like

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Speaker 7: that bull and shit. Yeah, you know, there was some bulls,

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Speaker 7: but a lot of niggas fucking with him and looking

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Speaker 7: at him in the way that he looks at himself.

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Speaker 7: So that support might you know, Mike, Mike getn't think

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Speaker 7: he got he has this. You know, he's swayed enough people.

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Speaker 7: I don't know, man, but I don't I don't see

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Speaker 7: him backing down from this at this point.

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Speaker 2: The other big sports story of the week, John Gruden

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Speaker 2: had a series of emails in an investigation into the

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Speaker 2: Washington football team's misconduct. Emails that John Gruden had sent

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Speaker 2: while he was an ESPN employee that included homophobic slurs,

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Speaker 2: had included racial comments about d Smith and his lips,

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Speaker 2: which seemed to have been something that was going to

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Speaker 2: be forgiven until this sort of other stuff came out.

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Speaker 2: Not forgiven by us, John, but forgiven by the media

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Speaker 2: or I hear you his employer or.

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Speaker 1: Whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: And I think this this gets to the heart of

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who said this. But I think

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Speaker 2: this gets to the heart of something that you guys

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Speaker 2: have talked about a lot on this podcast. You feel

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Speaker 2: like a lot of coaches are writing if a lot

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Speaker 2: of people writing emails like this, or sending text like this,

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Speaker 2: or making comments like this on fucking phone calls with

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Speaker 2: their friends John Gruden. We all we he really learn

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Speaker 2: is that John Gruden is stupid enough.

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Speaker 3: To put this shit in a work email. Right. So,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what was your reaction, Tyler.

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Speaker 6: Okay, so you know, going off what you said about

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Speaker 6: how John Gruden was not only a bigot, but a

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Speaker 6: fucking idiotic bigot, right, Like, That's kind of where I'm

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Speaker 6: at with it. You know, he John Gruden, you know,

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Speaker 6: he's He's not the first to be exposed for saying

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Speaker 6: some bigoted, racist, homophobic shit. He won't be the last.

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Speaker 6: But every single time this happens, there's always a very

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Speaker 6: vocal crowd, right, a very vocal crowd asking everyone to

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Speaker 6: look past all the bigotry on display. And you know,

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Speaker 6: they've always got excuses. They've always got excuses for why

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Speaker 6: we should. You know, they never come flat out and say,

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Speaker 6: you know, I'm okay with bigotry. We all know that's

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Speaker 6: their stance, you know what I'm saying when they go

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Speaker 6: to bed for these exposed biggests, but they never come

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Speaker 6: out and say it. You know, Instead, they try to

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Speaker 6: offer these excuses for why we should look past the

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Speaker 6: bigotry at handby by trying to flip the narrative, by

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Speaker 6: trying to, you know, flip the narrative on some redemption

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Speaker 6: arc shit or some growth shit that was ten years

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Speaker 6: yars ago. He's grown since then. You know, they don't

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Speaker 6: even know these motherfuckers, but they're telling us they've growed

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Speaker 6: right or by like you know, attempting to minimize it.

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Speaker 5: It was a private conversation.

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Speaker 6: What if everyone heard your private conversations, Like I said,

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Speaker 6: we never hear them come flat out and say I

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Speaker 6: support bigotry, and I support this bigot being bigoted, even

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Speaker 6: though we all know that's truly their stance. With these

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Speaker 6: whimsy ass arguments, you know, they flip the whole fucking

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Speaker 6: narrative upside down and frame the biggot as the victim

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Speaker 6: while having zerio regard for the people the victim targeted

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Speaker 6: the biggot targeted. But in this situation with Gruden, with

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Speaker 6: all the bigotry, all the racism, all the homophobia display,

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Speaker 6: despite all that, we saw a fucking masterclass of stupidity

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Speaker 6: put on full display. Bro Cruden used his company email

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Speaker 6: to say these things. His company email, he uses to

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Speaker 6: use the f slur right, he uses company email.

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Speaker 2: Dot com.

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Speaker 6: Right, he uses company email to call the commissioner up

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Speaker 6: the NFL a homophobic slur. He us this company email

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Speaker 6: to say racist things about the president of the Players Association.

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Speaker 6: If you don't think the sheer utter stupidity that was

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Speaker 6: on full display here was a fire bull of fence,

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Speaker 6: then you're telling on yourself.

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Speaker 5: Bro. You're telling on yourself.

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Speaker 6: Even more than you normally would do as a bigotry

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Speaker 6: apologist because of the unprecedented level of stupidity on Guden's part. Here,

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Speaker 6: you're finally saying the quie part out loud. If you're

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Speaker 6: saying that, Gruden, then it's deserved to get fired.

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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 6: That being stupid enough to use your company email to

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Speaker 6: spew bigotry about prominent members and your company is as

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Speaker 6: fireble of offense. Right then you're finally saying the quiet

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Speaker 6: part out loud. Bro, You're saying, there will never be

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Speaker 6: an instance when bigotry is unacceptable for you. You're riding

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Speaker 6: for biggotree at all times, even if it's carried out

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Speaker 6: in the most fucking stupid, idiotic ways. You're not going

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Speaker 6: to bad for the right to grow. You're not going

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Speaker 6: to bad for the safety of privacy. You never were.

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Speaker 6: You're going to bad for bigotry, and you always were.

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Speaker 6: And I wish these people would just come out and

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Speaker 6: say that when like this happens and stop playing in

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Speaker 6: our fucking.

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Speaker 7: F what's wild to me is the motherfuckers that look

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Speaker 7: like you and me that are supporting this motherfucker, you

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Speaker 7: know what I mean.

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Speaker 6: Looking like Sam Jackson hugging Leo on goddamn Jenko right

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Speaker 6: right about now.

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Speaker 4: The fuck that's that's wild to me.

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Speaker 7: And we we look at biggots or racists as sworn enemies.

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Speaker 4: But a lot of you know, keep it a stack.

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Speaker 7: A lot of people, you know what I'm saying, that

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Speaker 7: look like me and you their politics aligned in a

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Speaker 7: lot of ways.

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Speaker 4: With motherfuckers who they swore as enemies.

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Speaker 7: You know what I mean, Like for for for a

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Speaker 7: motherfucker looking like me to to to support that type

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Speaker 7: of ship.

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Speaker 4: Dog, you know what I mean. Couldn't be me, nigga.

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Speaker 7: You know what I mean, could not be could mean,

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Speaker 7: But that's what That's what's wild to me. It's like,

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Speaker 7: you know, like we don't like how a man could

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Speaker 7: say that type of ship and we we find ways

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Speaker 7: to I I question what how this affects society us

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Speaker 7: looking at everybody's nigga, what the my shit ain't got

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Speaker 7: none of that that motherfucker nigga, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 7: especially not on a workI mil.

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Speaker 4: You feel what I'm saying, Like, bro, like I think

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Speaker 4: you can.

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Speaker 2: You can acknowledge that there's a difference between public and

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Speaker 2: private communication, while not saying private communication is the reason.

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Speaker 7: Whatever you what's wrong in this situation, it's not the

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Speaker 7: the invasion of privacy is what was saying nigga, like

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Speaker 7: you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: But it's like we we might make a I mean,

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Speaker 2: we made plenty of jokes in the group chat that

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Speaker 2: we woul might not make on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: We don't.

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Speaker 2: We've not called someone the f slur in the fucking

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Speaker 2: group chat and that. But that's the thing these situations

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Speaker 2: is Tyler said, bring out the people beating the drum,

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Speaker 2: just chanting who among us?

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Speaker 3: Who?

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Speaker 8: And us raise your hand, us among us. We're over

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00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,280
Speaker 8: here casting stones like a motherfucker. It's crazy, like who

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Speaker 8: hasn't said who?

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Speaker 3: No, bro?

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Speaker 7: Like you know, maybe as a even I didn't know

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00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,800
Speaker 7: as soon as we had some sense, it's.

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00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 4: Like I don't I don't ever use the F word ever.

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Speaker 4: And it's so fucking easy, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: You know, I don't even know.

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00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 7: I remember when when they first had the NBA joint whenever,

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00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,240
Speaker 7: like you know, calling somebody gay as a joke was laying.

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Speaker 4: I remember looking at that ship like, shut the fuck up.

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Speaker 7: I don't call nobody, none of that ship no more. Bro,

312
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 7: even you know, even in Joe and even in Jess.

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00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,680
Speaker 7: And it's it's not difficult, you know what I mean.

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00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,640
Speaker 7: If it's hard for you not to say that ship.

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Speaker 7: It's a problem with you, nigga, keep that society, you

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00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,680
Speaker 7: know what I'm saying, it's not society change and we're

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Speaker 7: so soft, motherfucker you have.

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Speaker 4: The problem dog fly out.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's been so wild, seeing like a major defensive

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00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 6: this being like.

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Speaker 4: Oh, come on, y'all, y'all are racist in your in

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Speaker 4: your email.

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Speaker 5: No, we're the.

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Speaker 4: No and look and I'm I'm gonna keep it a buck.

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Speaker 5: I don't give a fuck about you know.

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Speaker 6: First of all, it's not privacy on a company email

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00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,000
Speaker 6: here man, and he should right if you are for.

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00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 2: The biggest media company in the world.

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Speaker 6: By the way, exactly exactly in NFL emails interacting back

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Speaker 6: and forth.

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Speaker 4: What the fuck?

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Speaker 6: They ain't shit private about that, bro. And we should

333
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,360
Speaker 6: make motherfuckers be afraid to say this ship on big

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Speaker 6: enough platforms like here.

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Speaker 1: Hero.

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Speaker 6: If you want to be a racist, I want you

337
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,880
Speaker 6: to fucking form a secret society where you gotta whisper

338
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,960
Speaker 6: every third full moon on your meetings about how much

339
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,960
Speaker 6: your Mexicans. Bro, I don't I don't give a fuck

340
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 6: about your right to to third fortnight off the week.

341
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,480
Speaker 6: You know what I'm saying the third fortnight of the year,

342
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 6: we get together and fucking you know.

343
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, funk out, man. I think all of that and

344
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,320
Speaker 7: anybody supported that ship. I do not, But none of

345
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 7: that bullshit will I.

346
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 6: Will Yeah, I will never understand people measuring how progressive

347
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 6: society is by how tolerant it is a bigotry. I'm

348
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 6: on the complete opposite end of that spectrum. I measure

349
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,280
Speaker 6: how progressive a society is by how intolerant a bigotry

350
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,000
Speaker 6: they are out blue.

351
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:07,680
Speaker 7: Bitch ass nigga, fuck nigga, Google that fuck nigga.

352
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 4: Fuck nigga.

353
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,560
Speaker 7: Then what I'm saying, Hey, and let me say this

354
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,760
Speaker 7: real quick before we hop off this bitch, don't motherfucking

355
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,520
Speaker 7: family's motherfucking blood line, bitch ass nigga.

356
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying. I just brought up two

357
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:21,920
Speaker 4: of my uncles. You feel me.

358
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 7: You can write a fucking book of my mom my

359
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 7: dad could be a motherfucking block buster, motherfucking movie. I'm

360
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,360
Speaker 7: the lameest motherfucking my motherfucking family, bitch, and I will

361
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 7: dog walk your asshole my motherfucking blood line, motherfucker. Fuck

362
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,880
Speaker 7: you mean it's on site. If I put my motherfucking daughter,

363
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 7: my wife. I'm slapping fire out that bitch ass, Nigga.

364
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 4: I hope you try me. I don't play that shit, Nigga.

365
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 7: I'm a country ass, Nigga from Saint Louis, bitch, the

366
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:45,920
Speaker 7: descendant of motherfucking slaves, Nigga.

367
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 4: I come from motherfucking persevereage. Bitch ass, Nigga.

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00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 7: Fuck you mean, I got real serious for a second,

369
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 7: but I got what that shit made me mad.

370
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Speaker 4: Don't ever come for my motherfucking blood line. Motherfucker shit.

371
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 4: Can't believe he tried me like that. I was scorching

372
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 4: hot on motherfucking ride to work, Nigga. I had to

373
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Speaker 4: pull over and get that fucking tweet off.

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Speaker 7: You feel me, bitch, As I'm like, Nigga, you talking

375
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,680
Speaker 7: about talk about me all you want. You might be right,

376
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,440
Speaker 7: because I'm a fucking podcaster, bitch. I you know what

377
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,240
Speaker 7: I mean, I ain't shit. You feel me, You might

378
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:16,879
Speaker 7: be right, But when you're talking about my family, you

379
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:18,720
Speaker 7: don't know Nigga and my best friend.

380
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 4: First, my best friend is in the motherfucker Smithsonian.

381
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 7: You couldn't walk at night where he fucking grew up, bitch,

382
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,640
Speaker 7: And that's where my motherfucking family from. Don't ever come

383
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,080
Speaker 7: from my motherfucking people, bitch, Nigga, don't ever fucking don't

384
00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 7: get nigga dog. If you see me with a nigga dog,

385
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,920
Speaker 7: know here real when fuck nigga, I'm gonna lame his nigga.

386
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,600
Speaker 7: I know, flat to fuck out, flat to fuck out.

387
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 7: Don't ever try nobody I'm fucking with nigga.

388
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,160
Speaker 4: Shit. I'll give my cousin portion. She will dog walk

389
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:44,920
Speaker 4: your ass, bitch.

390
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,760
Speaker 7: You feel me, she will drag your ass all up

391
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 7: in James Cool, which is the street that my other uncle,

392
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 7: Norman Say, motherfucking got named after after James Cool, bitch.

393
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,560
Speaker 7: You know what I'm saying right down from Dorman Saves,

394
00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 7: motherfucking Parking is named after him. You feel me, don't

395
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,520
Speaker 7: don't come with me, Come with me, nigga, see thanks

396
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:03,960
Speaker 7: to call for me.

397
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Speaker 4: Don't come my motherfucking people though, all.

398
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 2: Right, Stay tuned for our in depth interview with Clint Smith,

399
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Speaker 2: How the Word Has Passed, And Clint, thank you so

436
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 2: much for honor that you joined us.

437
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 5: Man.

438
00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 3: We really appreciate it.

439
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,120
Speaker 1: It's good to be This is like one of those

440
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 1: long time listener, first time caller kind of things.

441
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 5: That's wow. It's crazy that that Clinton is a fan

442
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 5: bro like.

443
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 6: Bro New York Times number one bestseller is listening to

444
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 6: our foolishness like I'm.

445
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 4: Wasting his time. Listen to us make fun of Tom Cruise.

446
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 5: Tom Cruise looks like a casher and shit.

447
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 6: But for sure, but Clint Man for show, I appreciate

448
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:25,880
Speaker 6: you having a song. You know, we've been Twitter homies

449
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 6: for a Minute's good to finally connect on the zoom

450
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,120
Speaker 6: and shit. So you know, the book How the Word

451
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,400
Speaker 6: has passed incredible read, you know, as as we were

452
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 6: going through it on the book Club, just phenomenal. I

453
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,679
Speaker 6: guess my first question would be, like, what was the

454
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 6: inspiration for that? You know, it's it's a book about

455
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 6: reckoning with America's pass which is something America has always

456
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 6: been doing.

457
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 5: It seems that America always will be doing.

458
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 6: It seems that she has kind of kicked in the

459
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 6: overdrive like the last ten years or so.

460
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 5: Though.

461
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 6: So, so, was there like a light bulb moment when

462
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 6: you had this idea or was it just kind of

463
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 6: like a culmination, like a slow burn when the idea

464
00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 6: came to you.

465
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it's been a little bit of both.

466
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, over the course of the past several years,

467
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: we've had the Black Lives Matter movement that sort of

468
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 1: pushed the country's public consciousness around issues of race and

469
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 1: racism and history in directions that it certainly hasn't gone

470
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,679
Speaker 1: in my lifetime. And part of what happened was in

471
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen there was the massacre in the Charleston church

472
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 1: and that was and then renewsome took down the Confederate

473
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 1: flag in front of the Charleston Capitol. And that's when

474
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 1: we started having this conversation around Confederate iconography and statues

475
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 1: and flags, and we saw dozens of statues come down

476
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,120
Speaker 1: in different cities across the country. We saw different states

477
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: take down the Confederate flag from in front of their

478
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,640
Speaker 1: in front of the state buildings, and New Orleans, my hometown,

479
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 1: was having its own conversation around this, and ultimately the

480
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 1: city council and the mayor decided that they we were

481
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,479
Speaker 1: going to remove several Confederate statues that had been just

482
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 1: like central to the iconography of this or central to

483
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 1: the landscape of the city. And these were statues of PGT. Bogard,

484
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 1: Roberty Lee, Jefferson Davis, these leaders of the Confederacy to

485
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: generals and a president, and it took two years for

486
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: them to come down because they were being threatened, the

487
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 1: contractors were being threatened by white supremacists and neo Nazis

488
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,360
Speaker 1: and neo Confederates every time they would get the contract

489
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: to be the person or to be the organization that

490
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: removed the statues and people. I mean it got while

491
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 1: people's cars were blown up. I mean it was. They

492
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 1: were committed to preventing this from happening at all costs,

493
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,920
Speaker 1: And it was so early reminiscent of the terror tactics

494
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 1: that the White League and the ku Klux Klan used

495
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 1: throughout the early twentieth century in order to prevent you

496
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: black folks from going to white school, black folks from

497
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: doing having access to this all sort of social and

498
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: material capital. So twenty seventeen May twenty seventeen, the statues

499
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: finally come down, and I'm watching, I live in Maryland.

500
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: I'm watching for a live stream as these statues that

501
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 1: were so central to my childhood and again the landscape

502
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 1: of the city, watching these statues come down, and I

503
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: was like, well, what does it mean that I grew

504
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 1: up in a majority black city in which there were

505
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: more homages to enslavers than there were to enslave people?

506
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 1: And what does that mean? What does it mean that

507
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 1: to get to school I had to go down Robbery

508
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: Lee Boulevard to get to the grocery store, I had

509
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway, that my middle school

510
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 1: was named after a leader of the Confederacy, that my

511
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 1: parents still live on a street today named after somebody

512
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: who owned over one hundred and fifty enslaved people. And

513
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: we know that symbols and names and iconography aren't just symbols.

514
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: They're reflective of the stories that people tell, and those

515
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: stories shape the narratives that communities carry, and those narratives

516
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: shape public policy, and public policy shapes the material conditions

517
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 1: of people's lives. And that's not to say that taking

518
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: down a sixty foot tall statue of Roberty Lee is

519
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 1: going to suddenly erase the racial wealth gap, but it

520
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: is to say that all of these images and symbols

521
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: shape how we understand the history of this country, and

522
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: thus how we understand the sort of amen that this

523
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: country needs to make for the harm that it has

524
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: caused to different groups of people. So I was thinking

525
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: about these statues, I was thinking about them coming down,

526
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: and I was like, well, how does how does my

527
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: own city talk about or fail to talk about its

528
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: own relationship to this history in a city where the

529
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: levees and the roads and the buildings were all built

530
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: by enslaved people, and this place that is surrounded by

531
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: plantations that don't mention enslave people at all. And so

532
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: I started thinking about historical sites and places around New

533
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 1: Orleans that were or weren't telling these stories, and then

534
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,239
Speaker 1: kind of just broadened it out and started thinking about, well,

535
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: how did different places across this country tell the story

536
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: or fail to tell the story, and kind of went

537
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: on this four year journey that brought me here.

538
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 4: You touched on that a little bit doing a prologue.

539
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,959
Speaker 7: I read that because I'm normally anti prologue and anti epilogue,

540
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 7: but my friends called me out on this shit.

541
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 4: What I said anyway, John, I never read an epilogue

542
00:24:58,440 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 4: before in my life.

543
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 5: Listen, it was quick. We were talking.

544
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 6: We were talking about, you know, how we were going

545
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 6: to discuss the last few chapters and then the epologue,

546
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 6: and John pulled up, Man, we don't need discuss the epiloge.

547
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 6: We discussed that with him. It was like, bro, you

548
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 6: did not read the epilogue if you're saying that.

549
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 4: Right, right?

550
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 6: Like and I did, right because but then I did

551
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 6: because the epilogue. I did read it because because the

552
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 6: epilogue hit me and Mike harder than like any part

553
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 6: of that book.

554
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 5: Man, we appreciate you sharing that with.

555
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 7: Us for real, right, But then I did read it

556
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 7: and it made me go back to the prologue, and

557
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 7: that's how I know you touched on that to the prologue.

558
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 4: But what I'm saying is how.

559
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 7: Important was it to have those conversations with your grandmother,

560
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 7: your grandparents?

561
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 4: Because that was the hardest.

562
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 7: That hit me hard as any other part too as well,

563
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 7: like the part she was talking about when she she lived,

564
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 7: and how that hit you? Like how important were these

565
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 7: conversations you had with them?

566
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they were everything. I mean, I think

567
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: I spent all these years interviewing people who who were strangers, right,

568
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: and asking strangers to tell me these their life stories,

569
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: and asking strangers to tell me all these like to

570
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: make parts of their lives and how this history impacted them.

571
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: And I kind of had this moment where I was like,

572
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm asking strangers all these like deep and personal and

573
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 1: intimate questions in a way that I've never asked my

574
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: own family. Right. I think you know, you go to Thanksgiving,

575
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: and especially now I got kids. I got a four

576
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: year old and a two year old, and you show

577
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: up a Thanksgiving and like you could barely have a

578
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: conversation with anybody about, you know, past the turkey leg

579
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: because your two year old is like throwing macaroni in

580
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 1: your face and your year old is like, I got

581
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: a poop. And so so I was like, I need

582
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: to create a scenario in which I can like sit

583
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: and have this conversation with my grandparents in a way

584
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: that that's going to allow me to dig a little

585
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: deeper than I've dug with them before. And the catalyst

586
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: for that was that we went to the National Museum

587
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: of African American History and Culture, like I talked about

588
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: in the epilogue, and we were walking around and I

589
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: was pushing my grandfather on the wheelchair, my grandmother was

590
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: walking a little bit ahead of us, and I was

591
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: just looking around and I was like, man, so much

592
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: of the history that is documented in this museum, like

593
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: they lived through, you know, my grandfather born in nineteen

594
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: thirty Jim Crow, Mississippi. My grandmother born in nineteen thirty nine,

595
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: Jim Crow, Florida. Their proximity to this history is so

596
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: close in ways that I think I always knew in

597
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: the abstract, but like had never really fully understood. And

598
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: the moment where it became really clear was when we

599
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: were going to we passed Emmatil's casket and I was

600
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: pushing my grandfather in the wheelchair, and he was just like,

601
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: you know, that happened like a few miles down the

602
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 1: road from where me and your grandmother lived. And I

603
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: was like, man, my grandfather could have been Amettel, you

604
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: know my and I think part of what happens is

605
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: so much of this type of history we tell ourselves

606
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: it was a long time ago, when it wasn't in

607
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: that long ago at all. And I remember the moment

608
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: where I, you know, I was talking to my grandfather

609
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: and I was like, man, my grandfather's grandfather was enslaves.

610
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 1: The woman who opened the National Museum of African American

611
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: History and Culture, the building we were in in twenty sixteen,

612
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: was the daughter of an enslaved person. Like, not the granddaughter,

613
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: the great granddaughter. This woman who rang the bell to

614
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: open the museum with the Obama family in twenty sixteen

615
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: is the daughter of someone born into intergenerational chattel slavery.

616
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: I just did an NPR show the other day where

617
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: a woman called in I think she was like seventy

618
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: years old, and she was talking about how she was

619
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: raised by her great grandfather and she called him Pappy.

620
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: She was like, yeah, I was raised by Pappy, and

621
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: Pappy was born or in a slave, still had the

622
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: marks on his back. Right. So there are people who

623
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: are alive today who were still who were loved by,

624
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: raised by in community with people who were born into bondage.

625
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: And so the idea that someone would suggest that that

626
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: history has nothing to do with what the contemporary landscape

627
00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: of inequality looks like. It so morally and intellectually disingenuous.

628
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: And I think that this book, in the process of

629
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: writing this book, in the process of finishing with conversations

630
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: with my grandparents, not only gave me a sense of

631
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: my physical proximity to this history with all the places,

632
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: but also like our temporal proximity. Right that slavery exists

633
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: for two hundred and fifty years, only it hasn't existed

634
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: for a little over one hundred and fifty. So you

635
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: have this institution that existed for one hundred years longer

636
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: than it hasn't, and then people want to be like

637
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with what our world looks

638
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 1: like today, when it has everything to do with what

639
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: our society looks like today.

640
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: I want to add to this as a bit of

641
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: a pivot, and I apologize for that, but I wanted

642
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: to just ask you from a writer's perspective, how you

643
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: kind of arrived at the structure to focus on, as

644
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: you said, to tell the story geographically. And I think

645
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: certainly in places you know, I think I'm sure a

646
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: lot of people who pick the book up are surprised

647
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: to see New York City, right, and are surprised to

648
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: see the places that you went to tell this story.

649
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: And then I was also, really, I don't think in

650
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: one hundred years I would have thought of telling this

651
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 2: story through interviewing these tour guides and the people who

652
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: are engaged in that kind of oral history of you

653
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: talking about these sites. So can you sort of talk

654
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: about how you came to that decision to structure the

655
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: book that way and then you know, give it their perspective.

656
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a process, I mean it was so

657
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: you know, I came into writing as a poet, and

658
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: so my first book was A collection of poetry came

659
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: out in twenty sixteen, and I when I was watching

660
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: the statues come down, I initially was thinking that it

661
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: would be my second book of poetry, and that I

662
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: would write a book of poems in which the conceit

663
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: was that every poem was about a specific statue in

664
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: New Orleans. And that's how it kind of started, because

665
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: poems poems are like the creation of art, but they're

666
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: also the mechanism by which I do my best thinking.

667
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: I think through poems, I.

668
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 6: Can interject here you're the fact that you are a

669
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 6: poetry shined in a very favorable way in this book,

670
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 6: like the way you would describe things. It was like, yeah,

671
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 6: this dude is a poet, you know what I mean?

672
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 6: So I just want to give you that compliment there.

673
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Yeah, no, thank you. And I think

674
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: what poetry does is it it teaches me to pay attention. Right,

675
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: Like in poetry, part of what you're doing is focusing

676
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: on a moment or an idea or an image, and

677
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: you're trying to home in on it as as closely

678
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: as you can, and like, no detail is too microscopic,

679
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: no detail is too granular, and so like what you know,

680
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: when I'm going to these places, I want to get

681
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: a sense of the sort of texture of it, right,

682
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: and the sensory detail. I wanted to feel cinematic, almost

683
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: like I want you to feel like you are standing

684
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: there right next to me. What does it smell like,

685
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: what does it look like? What does the air taste like?

686
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: What is you know? Who are these people? What are

687
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: they wearing, what are their faces doing? What do their

688
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: voices sound like? What do they remind me of? You know,

689
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: part of it is going back a little bit. So

690
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: I thought I was going to write these poems, and

691
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: then I realized that the book needed to be a

692
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: little more expansive than that, and that it shouldn't also

693
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: just include my voice, but also had to include the

694
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: voices of other people. So I remember when I went

695
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: to Monicello, which is the first chapter in the book,

696
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: and I was on this tour and David was giving

697
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: this masterclass of like the cognitive dissonance of Thomas Jefferson

698
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: and who Jefferson was as an enslaver and the story

699
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: we don't often tell about him, And I remember I

700
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: was watching these two women, Donna and Grace, who were

701
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: on the tour with me, and I went up and

702
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 1: afterwards I went up to them and asked them, you know,

703
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: how did you experience everything that David was saying, because like,

704
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: while we were watching or listening to David, their mouths

705
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: were agape, like they looked shocked, they were sweating, they

706
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: were just they look stressed. And I remember I went

707
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: up to them and she says in the books, she

708
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: Donald's like, man, he really took the shine off the guy.

709
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: I had no idea Jefferson own slaves.

710
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 2: We talked a lot about that passage, about the phrase

711
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: took the shine off.

712
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 3: Of them.

713
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: Phrase, yes, and and they I mean, like, you got

714
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: to remember that these are people who who bought plane tickets,

715
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: who rented cars, who got a hotel room to come

716
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: to the home of Thomas Jefferson as almost a pilgrimage,

717
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: and had no idea that he was a person who

718
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: owned over six hundred people, had no idea that he

719
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: had that he enslaved his own children. I had no

720
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: conception Monicello as a plantation. And I think that moment,

721
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: like going up to them and having that conversation was

722
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: really transformative for what the structure of the book would

723
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: be because I realized that I had to incorporate the

724
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: perspectives and voices of a wide range of other people

725
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: if I was really going to get a sense of

726
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: like the plurality of ways that slavery is understood or

727
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: misunderstood in this country. Because the thing is, it's funny

728
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: like now you read all the reviews and stuff, and

729
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: everybody's like the narrative is like poet and journalist Clint

730
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: Smith goes on this journey da da da, But like

731
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: I did not. I work at the Atlantic now, But

732
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: I got that job after I finished the book. So

733
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: I had no conception of myself as a journalist. Like

734
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: the idea of going up to white people on a

735
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: plantation and asking them what they think about slavery, It

736
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: is like not part of my ethos at all, Like

737
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: that is not a natural disposition for me. And I

738
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: had to really like pump myself up. I was like,

739
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: all right, like we're gonna do this. We're gonna go

740
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: like ask these people what they think. But it really

741
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: showed me the power of that sort of reporting in

742
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 1: this sort of context. And that is what I tried

743
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: to do with each of the places that I that

744
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: I went because I think it added if it was

745
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: just me reflecting on my own experience there, I mean,

746
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: I'm not hanifh right, So like canif you know, I

747
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 1: think Canife can not talk to anybody and just give

748
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: us the interiority of his thoughts and you're like, damn,

749
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: and then he wins to MacArthur right like, But like

750
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: I think for the rest of us, we got you know,

751
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: it's important, I think to and for the project of

752
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: what this book was trying to accomplish, it had to

753
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: have those other voices in at the docents, the public, historians,

754
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: the visitors, all these folks, and then put those reactions

755
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: and responses in conversation with my own reflections and experiences

756
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: in these places.

757
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 2: But you made a great point. The last comment I

758
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: just want to make about it. You made a great point.

759
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: It's like, I don't think we consider public dosins at

760
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: historical sites to be like an important cultural force in America,

761
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: But they talk to way more people than almost any

762
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 2: author every man. I mean, I thought that was a

763
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: really fascinating point. That really is how we're telling these stories.

764
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: A teacher talks to thirty kids, a successful author is

765
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 2: talking to fifty one hundred thousand people, but a couple

766
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: million people go through some of these sites every year.

767
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's that's the thing for me, is

768
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: that like they encounter I would what is it? I

769
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: don't remember the exact numbers, but but like half a

770
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: million people before the pandemic, like went to Monicello. I

771
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: think it might be more than that. And like nobody, No,

772
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 1: there's no book about slavery that half a million people

773
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: are reading every year, right, Like, that's not that's not

774
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: how it goes. And so they are encountering people who

775
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: would otherwise who won, they're encountering more people, and they're

776
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: also encountering people who would never pick up the book itself, right,

777
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: Like the David regularly encounters people who would never be

778
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: inclined to go order a copy of How the Word

779
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: has Passed on their own, maybe after they talk to him.

780
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: But like you meet a lot of people like Donna

781
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: and Grace right who show up and think they're coming

782
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: to see one thing and then realize that they're coming

783
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: to see something that is much more expansive and complicated

784
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: in some ways and complex than what they initially what

785
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: they initially came for. And so I mean, I think

786
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: that the docentce and part of what I tried to

787
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: replicate in the in the spirit of the book is

788
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: that there's this really incredible ability to find a balance

789
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: between like generosity and grace and like extending graciousness to

790
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: people in the sense that like, we're not going to

791
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 1: judge you for what you don't know when you show

792
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: up here, But at the same time, there's a level

793
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: of like accountability and responsibility where it's like, we're not

794
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: going to judge you for what you don't know, but

795
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: once we present that information to you, you have a

796
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 1: responsibility to sit with that, right. You can't run from that.

797
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: You can't pretend like, you know, I'm saying something that

798
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm not. And I think that that is what they

799
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: whether it's David at Monticello or Avonne at Whitney or

800
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: de Maris in New York, like so many of these

801
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: folks do such a good job of saying of sort

802
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: of pulling people in and inviting them in to a

803
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: conversation and a space and a set of ideas that

804
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: they may have never encountered, and also saying, all right, now,

805
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: you gotta sit with it. And and that's hard and

806
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: it's hard to varying degrees for different people, but I

807
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: think it's it's just so effective in the way that

808
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: they do it.

809
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 6: Sure, Tyler, No, I was gonna say so, so, you know,

810
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 6: building on on what you just said here, Like an

811
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 6: overarching theme of this book seemed to be dismantling the

812
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 6: notion of how judging the atrocities of the past through

813
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 6: the moral lens of today is a flawed way to

814
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 6: go about things, Like like, we hear that all the

815
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 6: time when people discuss slavery. You know, there's there's people

816
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 6: who are like, well, you can't judge the atrocities committed

817
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 6: hundreds of years ago through a twenty first century lens.

818
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 6: And I've always thought that was bullshit for a number

819
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 6: of reasons. Because one, slavery, for instance, was always controversial,

820
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 6: It was never universally accepted. There was always a tide

821
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 6: of you know, like anti slavery sentiment, and slave owners

822
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 6: themselves even grappled with an attempted to you know, rationalize,

823
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 6: you know, the atrocities that they themselves committed. And two,

824
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 6: I feel like that lineup they can totally regards to

825
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 6: people on the receiving end of these atrocities. You know,

826
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 6: it totally discounts and e racism in an attempt to

827
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 6: mitigate the harm that these you know, historical figures inflicted

828
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 6: on others in the past. We are silencing their victims

829
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 6: once again. When we do this, you know, we're making

830
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 6: the people on the receiving end of these atrocities silence again,

831
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 6: like just doubling down on their you know, dehumanizing. And

832
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 6: you know, because I promise you the enslaved people who

833
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 6: are being brutalized by Robert E. Lee were not conflicted

834
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 6: in their views of him, you know what I'm saying.

835
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 6: I'm sure they just flat out viewed him as a very,

836
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 6: very cruel and evil man. Which is why I never

837
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 6: liked that line of thinking. I always thought it was

838
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 6: a cop out. You know, we can't santi sistory. We

839
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 6: have to take it in warts and all. And that

840
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 6: brings you to my questionnaire. You know, you were, you know,

841
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 6: the man on the ground, you know, interacting with people

842
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 6: who are getting these hard thoseges of truth. Some you know,

843
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 6: accepted it, some were still in denial. But being an educator, like,

844
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 6: how has your reaction have the reaction has been when

845
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 6: you are teaching you know, the unsanitized, truthful history there, Like,

846
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 6: have you gotten any pushback from students, staff's parents or

847
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 6: I'm just interested in how that all gets ingested.

848
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it probably depends on the context. I've

849
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: taught at a lot of different levels. Now, Like I

850
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 1: was a high school English teacher than I was teaching

851
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: when I was a PhD student, I was teaching master students.

852
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: I've been teaching in prisons and jails for a long time,

853
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: and I think the thing that I encounter most of

854
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: the time is that, especially when I'm teaching primarily black

855
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: and brown students, is that our young people and or

856
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: really anyone, but especially our young people are rarely taught

857
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: information that helps them provide context to the communities that

858
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: they live in. And so so I think about a

859
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: moment all the time I've been teaching. I haven't since

860
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 1: the pandemic, but hopefully we'll be back in there soon.

861
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: But was teaching at DC jail, and there's a book

862
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: The Color of Law by Richard Rosstein. What about the

863
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: history of housing segregation in the United States and how

864
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: state sponsored housing segregation contributed to the wealth gap, And

865
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, so much of the inequality we see today.

866
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: And I remember one of my students, young man just

867
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: like nineteen years old, in the jail, he had been

868
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: read We weren't even reading that book as a group.

869
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: He found that book in the library on his own,

870
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 1: and I remember we had a conversation about it, and

871
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: he was just like Clint, like nobody ever talked to

872
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: us about this, Like nobody ever told us this. We

873
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: grew up thinking that this was our fault, right, We

874
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: grew up thinking that this community, that our houses, that

875
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: our neighborhood looked the way that it did because we

876
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: didn't do something, or we did something wrong, and no

877
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: one had ever given him the context to show that,

878
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 1: like the reason one community in DC looks one way

879
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: in another community in DC another way is not because

880
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: the people in those communities, but because of what has

881
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 1: been done to those communities generation after generation after generation.

882
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: And that's not to say that that people who are

883
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: on the receiving end of that don't have agency right

884
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: and can't escape from those circumstances, but it is to

885
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 1: provide important contexts that helps him understand how he ended

886
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: up in the circumstances that he's in, right, like you

887
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: when you understand how the history of state sanctioned segregation

888
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: and racism made your community look the way that it did,

889
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,959
Speaker 1: and made sure that your parents, you know, weren't able

890
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: to move to certain neighborhoods or couldn't get certain jobs,

891
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: or that your grandparents you know, didn't were never able

892
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: to buy a home and could only rent, so never

893
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: had the equity that accrued over time, and all these

894
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: different things. Then you begin to understand your own situation

895
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: in a different way, and you don't think that you

896
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: ended up in jail singularly because you are a bad person,

897
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: or there's something wrong with you, or there's something wrong

898
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: with the place you come from, but you understand it

899
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: as part of a larger set of forces that may

900
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 1: have put you in a position of desperation, or may

901
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: have put you in a position of distress, may have

902
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: continued to inflict like physical and psychological trauma on you

903
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: throughout your childhood that can't be disentangled from the position

904
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: you find yourself in now. And that is that's so

905
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: freeing to people, right because all the folks in jail,

906
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: or even folks not in jail, like are inundated with

907
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: these messages about how whatever happens to you is because

908
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: of what you did, or whatever happened to you is

909
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: because of what you didn't do. And I think there's

910
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: something to be said for whether it's in the context

911
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: of mass incarceration or slavery or Jim Crow, whatever we're

912
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: trying to teach about, there's something to be said for

913
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: providing young people with the language and the toolkit to

914
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: push back against so many of these narratives that they're

915
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: on the receiving end of. And I think that I

916
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 1: remember when I, you know, growing up in New Orleans,

917
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: I felt that too. There was a sort of paralysis.

918
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 1: There was a sort of emotional and psychological paralysis because

919
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: you're told all these things that are wrong with New Orleans,

920
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: wrong with black people, wrong with the community that you

921
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: come from. And then you learn American history and you

922
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: realize that so much of what you've been told is

923
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: a lie. And that has been freeing and liberating for me,

924
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: and I know, freeing and liberating for so many of

925
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: my students in ways that you know, I can't even

926
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: really be quantified.

927
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 7: Tyler talked about you being a poet, shotting through. You

928
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 7: talked about being a poet. We talked about how you

929
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 7: being a poet like balanced out some of the heaviness

930
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 7: of the book. But there were times that we talked

931
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 7: about the courthouse where the.

932
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 4: Art before the pod, where.

933
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 7: The lady had to get the slave, had to give

934
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 7: up her child, infant child, and how she pleaded to

935
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 7: a god she didn't even know existed, you know what

936
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 7: I mean, because that's all she could do. You know,

937
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 7: the system supported this Atrosty, you know what I mean.

938
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 7: I had to put the book down and go for

939
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 7: a walk, like you're the vessel this is coming from, though, Like,

940
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 7: you know, how do you describe the process of writing

941
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 7: these things? How do you balance out these emotions that

942
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 7: I'm imagine you're going through while sharing these you know,

943
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 7: difficult stories but important stories to hear.

944
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think that part of it. I mean,

945
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: you know, as a as a writer, strategically, I think

946
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: you just have to be mindful of when and how

947
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: you insert certain types of information, right and when you

948
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: when you give the reader a second to take a breath,

949
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: and when you give the reader a moment to sort

950
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: of step back, because if you're just inundating them with

951
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: traumatic images and traumatic descriptions over and over again and

952
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: that's all three hundred pages of your book. That's gonna

953
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: be hard for people to digest, that's gonna be hard

954
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: for people to engage with. But I think you know

955
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: what the best writers I know who write on difficult

956
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 1: subjects do is they sort of they find a way

957
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: to achieve a level of balance right where they you know,

958
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: where maybe they're describing something and then they step back

959
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: a little bit to contextualize it or maybe you know,

960
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: in the context of this book. Part of what was

961
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: really important for me, and this kind of goes back

962
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: to the question about you know, structure and form. What

963
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to do was write a book of history

964
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: that felt like a novel, like. I wanted it to

965
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: feel literary. I wanted it to feel like someone was

966
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: on a narrative journey. And in doing so, in this context,

967
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: that means I was the protagonist of the story, right

968
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: that you were kind of following me on my journey

969
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: across the country and across the ocean to discover and

970
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: make sense of these places. And so, you know, if

971
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: I'm telling this first person story and I'm the protagonist,

972
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 1: then I think part of what's important is to provide

973
00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: a level of interiority and and you know, honesty from

974
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: my end, And so that's why I felt important for me,

975
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: you know, when I see the when I'm at the

976
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 1: Whitney and see the field of angels, right, and I

977
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: see the dates and the names of all these children

978
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: who died in infancy, when I see the body of

979
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: the of the infant, of the child in the arms

980
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 1: of that angel, the statue of it. For me, those moments,

981
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: it's it's not enough for me to just describe what

982
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: I'm seeing if I'm not also going to share how

983
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: I'm experiencing that moment, because I think part of what

984
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: that also does is gives the reader permission to step

985
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: back and process how they're experiencing that moment, right, Because

986
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: it's if I just went like, look at this, look

987
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: at this, look at this, and not providing a second

988
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,959
Speaker 1: to pull back and say, you know, when I see

989
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: that child in that angel's hands, like, it is impossible

990
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: for me not to think of my own children, and

991
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: you know, and I think I tried to do that

992
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 1: in every space that I went to, whether it was

993
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 1: the traumatic moments and also the moments where I was

994
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: learning something I didn't know, right, Because I think part

995
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: of what was important about this book was not not

996
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes I think with books on subjects like this, people

997
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: can feel can encounter information and then feel like they

998
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: should be ashamed of not knowing it before. But like,

999
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: this book was written by you know, the motivation for

1000
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: writing this book was because I didn't know so much, right, Like,

1001
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: I went to these places because I realized that I

1002
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: did not understand the history of slavery in any way

1003
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: that was commensurate with the impact that it had on

1004
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: this country and the way that it continues to shape

1005
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 1: this country. And so I wanted to also in those

1006
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 1: moments say damn, I didn't know this, or I'm just

1007
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: I'm also just realizing this, so that when the reader

1008
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: is having that moment too, they don't feel dumb or

1009
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: they don't feel like they should have known it before.

1010
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: Like maybe maybe you should have known it before, but

1011
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: maybe I should have known it before too, right, Or

1012
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: maybe we've all been failed by this country that is

1013
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: structurally and systemically failed to provide us with the level

1014
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 1: of education on the subject matter that that we need

1015
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: and deserve. So so yeah, it's just, you know, that's

1016
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: a long way of saying I think putting myself in

1017
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: it and making sure that my reflections and thoughts and

1018
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: how I'm processing so much of what I was seeing

1019
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: and hearing is part of that also allows a level

1020
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: of respite for the reader to step back and say, like, well,

1021
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: how am I processing and making sense of this?

1022
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 4: What did How did you manage your emotions?

1023
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 7: So like you were learning things for the first time

1024
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 7: as well, just like you know, as I was, but

1025
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 7: you were learning in the moment, you know, seeing these

1026
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 7: things in a way that you described greatly in the book.

1027
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 7: How did you manage your emotions and then having to

1028
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 7: relive them by writing about them and sharing them?

1029
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 4: You know what I mean? How do you manage that?

1030
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I think sometimes it's hard. I think what

1031
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: also happened is that I was writing this book as

1032
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: I had as my wife and I were growing our family. So,

1033
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, my four year old was born the same

1034
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: month that the statues came down, and so I you know,

1035
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: and then my two year old was born in the

1036
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: middle of this process. And so part of it is

1037
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 1: that I, like, I go spend the day at you know,

1038
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: a plantation, and then I come home and I have

1039
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 1: to pretend to be a Bronchio source right, like I don't,

1040
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: you know, I can't. I can't necessarily just just sit

1041
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: with it like I gotta. So it's interesting because it's

1042
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: they are the thing that make it more real and

1043
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 1: more intimate. And also they are the the little humans

1044
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: that like pull me back right and and remind me

1045
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: and sort of give me my own sort of respite

1046
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: from from having to just sit with that in and

1047
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: of itself. And I don't know what the process of

1048
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: writing this book would have been like if if I

1049
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: didn't have that to to come back to, because when

1050
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 1: you you know, when your kids are, you know, what

1051
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 1: were they like six months and two and then a

1052
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 1: year and three? Like you gotta you gotta be present,

1053
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: and you better be a good rocky source. Don't get

1054
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:24,280
Speaker 1: you there.

1055
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,720
Speaker 3: But you uh so. I'm a sportswriter, not a poet.

1056
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 2: But I did send an email to a friend of mine,

1057
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: like six months into my wife and I having our

1058
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,919
Speaker 2: first kid, and the subject line in the email was

1059
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 2: a poem about having children.

1060
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 3: And the poem was, this ship is fucking crazy.

1061
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 2: Because you feel like you feel like you're walking around

1062
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: with no skin on. You're just like right, every emotion

1063
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 2: is so plugged into you, I wanted to ask you

1064
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 2: a little bit about audience. Writing poetry or writing a

1065
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: book is such a weird because you would never share.

1066
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: You mentioned, your ethos is not going up to white

1067
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 2: people at plantations to ask another feeling right, I imagine

1068
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 2: your ethos is also not standing on a corner telling

1069
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 2: any stranger passing by about these deeply emotional moments and

1070
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 2: considering your own children in the context of what this

1071
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,320
Speaker 2: country was like for the vast majority of its existence.

1072
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 2: So how has that been for you? It's obviously a

1073
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: blessing in many ways. I'm sure that the book has

1074
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: been so successful, But has it been uncomfortable for you

1075
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 2: sharing these deeply personal moments with some of the people

1076
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 2: in the book who you would not go up to

1077
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: and share your relationship with your grandparents or you know.

1078
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it's your number one best seller obviously, Like

1079
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: you're at the airport, you are at Ralph's, like you

1080
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 2: are at the grocery store. Right anyone can pick this

1081
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: book up and read this incredibly emotional portrayal of your

1082
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: relationship with your grandparents and your children. So how has

1083
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: that experience been like for you as a person?

1084
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 3: Not as an author.

1085
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think you got to understand that

1086
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: like this was never It's hard to explain how not

1087
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: at all on my radar the possibility of like being

1088
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: a number one New York Times bestseller was. I mean,

1089
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, part of it is you go into the

1090
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: publication of a book and you also have to be

1091
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: wary of anything, any external factors shaping how you think

1092
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: about the success of your own book, right cause I know,

1093
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: I know plenty of folks who wrote amazing books that

1094
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: never made the New York Times bestseller lists or never

1095
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: got a prize or never. But and then that, you know,

1096
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: at its worst, makes the person feel like their book

1097
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: wasn't a success, even when it's still like this deep, moving, beautiful, informative,

1098
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: you know, piece of work. And so I think I

1099
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: was guarding against that a lot. So I got when

1100
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 1: I got a call from my agent and my editor

1101
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: the week after it came out, when the bestseller lists came,

1102
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: and they were they were both just screaming. They were like,

1103
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 1: you're number one, You're number one. I like fell out

1104
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: of my chair and I was just like on the floor.

1105
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: And then my kids are like, oh, we're playing dinosaurs.

1106
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: So you know, man, that's the common theme throughout this process.

1107
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, when Pops is on the floor,

1108
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: it's a dinosaur time. Yeah, I mean, how is it?

1109
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: It's been It's I mean, it's been really amazing. I mean,

1110
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: you know, this book was written for a fifteen year

1111
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: old version of me, right, Like this book was written.

1112
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: I wanted to write the sort of book that I

1113
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: wish I had been able to read when I was,

1114
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: you know, fifteen, sixteen years old looking around my city

1115
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 1: and being like, well, why is there a statue of

1116
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee in the middle of this traffic circle?

1117
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 1: Like why why are we going to ikea on Jefferson

1118
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,439
Speaker 1: Davis Parkway? Like why you know? And but I never

1119
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 1: really I never sat with it because we didn't we

1120
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: didn't really talk about it. And so for the first

1121
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: audience is like the younger version of me. And then

1122
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: as we were kind of speaking about I think, like

1123
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 1: other young black people who are trying to make sense

1124
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: of their country and their environment and could use some

1125
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 1: some like ammunition, right, like what is the information that

1126
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 1: is going to uh you know, whether you know you

1127
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: can think of it as ammunition or as a shield,

1128
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: right to shield you against the bullshit that this country

1129
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: inundates you. You inundate you with all the time. And

1130
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: obviously though I'm I'm thrilled when other people engage with

1131
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: it and read it. And I think the thing about

1132
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: being a writer, whether it's a poem or whether it's

1133
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: a book of nonfiction, is that you never know what

1134
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: people are going to bring to it, right, Like, that's

1135
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: part of the thing I love about art. Sometimes when

1136
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: I go do these conversations with students about like poetry,

1137
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 1: They'll be like, well, what did you mean with in

1138
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: this poem or in this line or And for me,

1139
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like, it doesn't really matter what I meant, right,

1140
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: it matters to me what you think, Like, how are

1141
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 1: you experiencing that? Because the thing about art is like

1142
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: you have one hundred people look at the same poem

1143
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 1: and read it a hundred different ways. You have a

1144
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,720
Speaker 1: hundred people look at a painting and get a hundred

1145
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:21,760
Speaker 1: different things from it. You can have a hundred different

1146
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: people read this book and it bring up one hundred

1147
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 1: different things for them. And so I think that's the

1148
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 1: thing that's been most that's been coolest, is like seeing

1149
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,760
Speaker 1: all the things that it brings up for people emails

1150
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:34,800
Speaker 1: I get from folks who are like, I visited Monticello

1151
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, and nobody ever said anything about Sally Hemmings,

1152
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: nobody ever said anything about you know, Thomas Jefferson as

1153
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: a slave owner. And now I'm thinking about all the

1154
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: other field trips I took to these places where what

1155
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, and thinking about what was mentioned and what

1156
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: wasn't and or like, you know, students who who say

1157
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 1: that this is a sort of book that they have

1158
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: been waiting for, you know, for for their own and

1159
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: that they want they're like recommended to their teacher, and

1160
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's been really amazing, and I

1161
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: just I just feel grateful. I just feel it's not

1162
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 1: you know, when you write a book, it's a very

1163
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: isolated process. It's a very long process, and it's not

1164
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: guaranteed that that anybody's going to read it. And so

1165
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: I feel grateful for the audience that it's gotten in

1166
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: for all the folks who are engaging with it.

1167
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 6: For sure, I found it interesting about what you just

1168
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 6: said about how you know, when you were fifteen and wondering,

1169
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 6: you know, why are these monuments of these Confederate you know,

1170
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 6: figures there because I came up and rich and where

1171
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 6: you know, keeping up with with the with the new Richmond,

1172
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 6: the capital of the Confederacy. Statues all throughout the you know, downtown,

1173
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 6: all throughout the city, and you know, it's there's been

1174
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 6: a movement to you know, take these down. And and

1175
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 6: of course, you know, like I said, of course that's

1176
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 6: not an instant fixed for racism. No one is saying that,

1177
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 6: and and and and during this you know, during this

1178
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 6: process where they were taking statues down, there was you know,

1179
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 6: of course people on Twitter like, well, this doesn't mean anything.

1180
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 5: This is just symbolism.

1181
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 6: And it's like, bro, if you're from like Connecticut or Oregon,

1182
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 6: I don't give a shit about what you have to

1183
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 6: say about this, you know what I mean? Like like

1184
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 6: there are you know, ten year old black kids who

1185
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 6: are driving past this, who are running past this eighty

1186
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 6: foot tall of Robert statue of Roberty, Like why is

1187
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 6: there this huge monument in this in this city that

1188
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 6: I grew up of a man who doesn't think that

1189
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 6: I was you know, I'm fully human, you know what

1190
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:26,439
Speaker 6: I mean?

1191
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 5: Like that is psychological warfare, Like.

1192
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 6: You know, like you mentioned the iconography of of the

1193
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 6: Confederates monuments were there was a second surge during the

1194
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,959
Speaker 6: Civil War. I'm doing during the Civil Rights movement where

1195
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 6: people were hyping up these Confederate figures to kind of,

1196
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 6: you know, let black people know exactly what they're the

1197
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 6: morals of the city that they were in was. And

1198
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 6: I mean, I guess I'm just rambling now, but I

1199
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 6: just wanted to touch on that. But the question that

1200
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,479
Speaker 6: I have here for you is you ended your book

1201
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 6: with a very pol powerful paragraph about how the question is,

1202
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 6: you know, not whether we should teach history in this

1203
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 6: full context, but if America is ready to reckon with

1204
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 6: history in this full context.

1205
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 5: Where do you think that our nation is in regards

1206
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 5: to that.

1207
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 1: I think we're further along than we've been. But I

1208
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: think that you know, and this is to your point,

1209
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: part of what happens is that at any moment of

1210
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: black progress, there's backlash. And so, you know black progress

1211
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: during the Civil Rights movement, they were like, Okay, we're

1212
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: going to put up a whole bunch more statues of

1213
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 1: Roberty Lee and Jefferson Davis to let you know where

1214
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: you stand. I mean, I think they just took down

1215
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: the bust of Nathan Bedford Forest in the Tennessee, the

1216
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: capitol of Tennessee. They didn't put I think, I don't

1217
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: know the exact date, but they didn't put that statue

1218
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 1: up or that bust up in like eighteen seventy eight.

1219
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: They put it up in nineteen seventy eight, right, like,

1220
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 1: so this is Nathan Bedford Forest is the founder of

1221
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: the klu Klux Klan. Nathan Bedford Forest massacred hundreds of

1222
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: black soldiers who had surrendered already in the Union Army

1223
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,479
Speaker 1: and just slaughtered them because he thought of any black

1224
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: person fighting for the Union Army as a slave as

1225
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: part of an insurrection.

1226
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 2: And forty years ago they were like you know what

1227
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 2: this guy.

1228
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: Like, right, I mean, it's like the late seventies right

1229
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: up until like nineteen eighty. And so they are not

1230
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: the people who put those up are not unclear about

1231
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:27,439
Speaker 1: like what it represents or what they're trying to say

1232
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 1: by it. They're very clear about it. And so I

1233
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: don't buy to your previous point, Like I don't buy

1234
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: this idea that like this stuff doesn't matter or this

1235
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: stuff is not important. And we saw a lot about

1236
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: we saw a lot of that with Juneteenth becoming a

1237
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: national holiday, and it's like, look, June teenth, it's a

1238
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,439
Speaker 1: both and right. So it's we don't have to say

1239
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 1: that June teenth becoming a federal holiday doesn't matter, because

1240
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: one that does a disservice to the generations of black activists,

1241
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: specifically black activists in Texas, who've been fighting for this

1242
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: for decades. Right, And so I'm not going to say

1243
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: that this doesn't matter when like my elders and people

1244
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: who have been leading the struggle, people who are involved

1245
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: in the civil rights movement have been pushing for this

1246
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: for a really long time. And it also, I mean,

1247
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: it's important it should have happened one hundred and fifty

1248
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 1: six years ago. But it's important that we have a

1249
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 1: holiday marking the end of one of the worst things

1250
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: we've ever done. And that doesn't mean that it enough

1251
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: itself is enough. That doesn't mean you don't still fight

1252
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 1: for voting rights. That doesn't mean you don't still fight

1253
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: to end mass incarceration. That doesn't mean you still don't

1254
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: fight for more equitable funding the schools and all. You know,

1255
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: the list goes on and on, and so I think

1256
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: we have to resist you know, sometimes people just do

1257
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 1: things on Twitter just because you know, it's Twitter, and like,

1258
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of stuff I love about

1259
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: Twitter and a lot of stuff I don't.

1260
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 4: But you know, I mean literally literally literally it is.

1261
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 1: It's a fix. It's a fix. And I think it's

1262
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: easy to get on there and say, like, nobody asked

1263
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 1: for Juneteenth to be a federal holiday. You know, this

1264
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It's that's such a narrow conception of of

1265
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: like what social change and social progress looks like. It's

1266
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 1: because the symbols inform the policy, they shape the stories

1267
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: that we tell, and so I think that those are.

1268
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 5: Really excited to progress.

1269
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 6: You've got to kill the old gods and Confederate figures.

1270
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 5: Are the old gods down there? You know what I mean?

1271
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah? So yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

1272
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 7: So I'm having a shorty in a little in like

1273
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 7: a month, right, is this your first one?

1274
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 4: First kid?

1275
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 2: Man?

1276
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

1277
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 2: I'm too I'm too naive to be nervous.

1278
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 4: I think you.

1279
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: Got to pick out what's your favorite dinosaurs? You can bet.

1280
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 4: There we go BD big dinosaur.

1281
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 7: But anyway, are you do you plan on taking your

1282
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 7: children to these places? And if I were to take

1283
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 7: my I wanted I was reading about this, I was like,

1284
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 7: I think it's important for my child to visit these locations.

1285
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 7: And what locations would you bring yours? I don't know

1286
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 7: if Angola is one of them I'm going to, but

1287
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 7: you know, I mean, you know, which, which ocation would

1288
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 7: you bring yours?

1289
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think all of these things you

1290
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: do in a way that is like scaffolded and and

1291
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: like developmentally appropriate, and but I absolutely, I mean, you know,

1292
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 1: part of it is that, I mean, if it was

1293
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: up to me, you know, we'd be taking road trips

1294
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: to Civil war battlefields on the weekend all the time.

1295
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 1: But my wife is not. She's not about that life.

1296
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 1: I already good for her.

1297
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 3: Good for her.

1298
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 4: There's a lot of week.

1299
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: There's a lot of weekend, maybe not every weekend, because

1300
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 1: she's I already extended a lot of my marriage capital

1301
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: in the process of writing this book. So I'm in

1302
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: I'm in debt. I'm still trying to get out, but

1303
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 1: uh yeah, I mean I So what's interesting is that

1304
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 1: I actually went with my family to the Whitney. Oh

1305
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 1: on it was so I went to the Whitney first

1306
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: time in February of twenty nineteen or January twenty nineteen,

1307
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: in the winter of twenty nineteen, and then Thanksgiving of

1308
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, so this would have been right before the pandemic.

1309
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 1: We went. We were celebrating with my grandmother's eightieth birthday,

1310
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 1: and part of that was that we all so like,

1311
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: all my family, all my cousins and everybody was there

1312
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: when we all went to the Whitney together, and it

1313
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: was it was an incredible and powerful experience. I left

1314
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: it out of the book almost because it was like

1315
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 1: it was almost like a thing that I kind of

1316
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 1: wanted to keep for us, you know what I mean,

1317
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: because I was like, well, this is you know, I'm

1318
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 1: here with my family at this place. But I think

1319
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:55,919
Speaker 1: there's some things that you want to share with the world,

1320
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 1: and there's some things and some moments you want to

1321
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 1: keep for your family. But I remember being there, and

1322
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: you know, part of what I write in the epilogue

1323
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: is how is my grandmother talks about her the way

1324
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: that she was educated about the history of slavery, and she,

1325
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, she was like, yeah, we were told that

1326
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 1: Africans were savages, and we were told that like, you know,

1327
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 1: basically they were told that slavery was good, right, like

1328
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 1: that slavery brought that it rescued you from the savagery

1329
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: of Africa, and that you should be grateful to be

1330
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 1: in this place that gave you Christianity and civilization and

1331
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 1: all of this stuff. Because you know, this is her

1332
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 1: one to school in the in the in the forties,

1333
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 1: I guess in the forties in Florida, and so she

1334
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 1: had never encountered people talking about slavery in the way

1335
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 1: that they talk about it at the Whitney. She had

1336
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:50,960
Speaker 1: never encountered the narratives and the voices of enslaved people themselves,

1337
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: like explaining for themselves what the experience was like. And

1338
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 1: so it was kind of I mean, it's similar to

1339
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: the scent to the way we experienced the the National

1340
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 1: Museum of African American History and Culture. I just start

1341
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 1: saying the Blacksnian because the other one is too long,

1342
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: the Blacksnian. And but she was just like, like, nobody

1343
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 1: ever taught me this, you know, and it's one it's

1344
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: like it's it's hard to describe what it's like to

1345
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: look at your eighty year old grandmother and like see

1346
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: her learning like in real time and seeing her also

1347
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 1: unlearning so much of what she had been taught about

1348
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 1: us and our people and our history. And I think

1349
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: the Whitney does does remarkable work. You know, it's and

1350
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: it's a museum, and they make specific artistic and curatorial choices.

1351
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:47,160
Speaker 1: And I also have a lot of people I respect

1352
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 1: who there's some people I respect who had a different

1353
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:51,960
Speaker 1: experience than me at the Whitney, right, and then they

1354
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: had a different experience than me at the Blacksni And

1355
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 1: people have experienced these places in all sorts of ways.

1356
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 1: But for me, they are doing something that no other

1357
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: plantation in this tree is doing. Unfortunately, they were really

1358
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 1: uh devastated by Hurricane Ida, and the folks are listening.

1359
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 1: They are also they're looking for donations. You can go

1360
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 1: to their website and contribute. We put that out. We

1361
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: put that out after the hurt.

1362
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 2: We were reading the book when the hurricane happened, so

1363
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 2: we put that out there.

1364
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it's so Yeah, I would take I would

1365
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 1: take my kids to the Whitney. I did take my

1366
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 1: kids to Whitney, but they were asleep in the stroller,

1367
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 1: so they don't remember. But but I think that that's

1368
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 1: a powerful place that that doing a lot, And honestly,

1369
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 1: I think Monticello's is continuing to do really thoughtful work

1370
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 1: around this as well. Mount Pelier where James Madison what

1371
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 1: his plantation was, Mount Vernon, George Washington's plantation. All these

1372
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 1: places are are revisiting the way that they tell the

1373
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 1: story and trying to tell it in a more honest

1374
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: and thoughtful way, and I think I think that's a

1375
01:07:58,680 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: good thing.

1376
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 2: Well, Clint, thank you for being so generous with your time.

1377
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 3: Thank you for the book.

1378
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 2: It was a great discussion over the last month or

1379
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 2: so on the podcast, and we heard from a lot

1380
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 2: of people who, uh, really appreciate it because I think

1381
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 2: the kind of people who were not necessarily looking for

1382
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 2: books about the history of the legacy of slavery. So

1383
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 2: we really appreciate all the time. And we'd love to

1384
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,760
Speaker 2: have you back on to just talk about sports and

1385
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:24,720
Speaker 2: dumb ship you.

1386
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 5: David Davidson was Steph right during the years?

1387
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 1: That's my that's my homies. Yeah, we got to have

1388
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 1: it back. Well, you know, we can talk about Steph,

1389
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:36,639
Speaker 1: what Steph was like in college, We can talk about it.

1390
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 1: Is Ion going to stay in New Orleans or is

1391
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 1: he just.

1392
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:42,719
Speaker 6: He gonna get that rookie out of here. Then after that, yeah,

1393
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 6: my final years, but enjoy him.

1394
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 3: We show.

1395
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 4: We definitely got to have you back on Bro, what's

1396
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 4: so man?

1397
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 2: Appreciate you all right, our thanks to Clint for joining us.

1398
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 2: I don't like I feel like we're whiplashing people like

1399
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:00,760
Speaker 2: you know, we got Dina cook Offs and we have

1400
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 2: number one best sellers on the pod, like that's the

1401
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 2: that's the that is our that's our ethos right there.

1402
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 7: Cook Off No more, Bro, that shit too embarrassing, Nick,

1403
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 7: I don't want to bring that shit out no more.

1404
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 7: I got I got cooked in the cook I was

1405
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 7: the motherfucking del source.

1406
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 5: I can't believe that.

1407
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 7: Sho go ahead, go ahead.

1408
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 5: Go ahead.

1409
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:31,839
Speaker 2: So a couple of quick updates for everybody. The episode

1410
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,839
Speaker 2: that drops on Monday will be our uh annual second

1411
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,679
Speaker 2: annual Jenkins and Jones NBA Previews special.

1412
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:39,280
Speaker 3: We will be.

1413
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,880
Speaker 2: Mentioning every team, even if it's only to say that

1414
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 2: we don't want to talk about your team, So it'll

1415
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 2: be comprehensive. Uh, it'll be funny. We're looking forward to it,

1416
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 2: so definitely check that one out and then uh, we're

1417
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 2: gonna start reading Tyler, what was it. Just give everyone

1418
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 2: a reminder again on the book and what chapters we're reading.

1419
01:09:57,160 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 6: Yes, we are reading Dynasties, the Ten Goats, teams that

1420
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 6: shape the NBA, by the home we Marcus Thompson. We

1421
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 6: are going to read up to and including the Bill

1422
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:11,959
Speaker 6: Russell Celtics chapter. That's it's four chapters. It's what's a dynasty?

1423
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 6: Wired dynasty is important Mike and Lakers than Russell Celtics.

1424
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:18,640
Speaker 3: So go uh grab that. Get that.

1425
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:20,840
Speaker 2: Actually, I'm gonna have to go to a bookstore because

1426
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,280
Speaker 2: I went on Amazon and it's like he's selling that

1427
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 2: shit out man, So they got a Barge and Noble book.

1428
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so grab that.

1429
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 2: We're gonna start reading that for Thursday's episode next week.

1430
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 3: But I think other.

1431
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 2: Than that, is that it anything else? Bye by