WEBVTT - The Lawyer and the Mobster 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.316 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.356 --> 0:00:25.316 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:25.716 --> 0:00:29.116 I'm Noah Feldman. Today we're going to talk about a 0:00:29.116 --> 0:00:31.996 book that has been getting a lot of attention and deservedly. 0:00:32.556 --> 0:00:36.476 It's about the disappearance and suspected murder of Jimmy Hoffa, 0:00:36.516 --> 0:00:39.036 a man who was at the forefront of the labor 0:00:39.116 --> 0:00:44.236 movement in America but also had close connections with the mafia. 0:00:44.356 --> 0:00:49.916 On July thirtieth, nineteen seventy five, Jimmy Hoffa disappeared. The 0:00:50.036 --> 0:00:53.236 commonly articulated view is that Haffa was killed in a 0:00:53.276 --> 0:00:57.956 mafia related hit, and that his friend and longtime associate, 0:00:58.236 --> 0:01:02.316 indeed almost his son, Charles Chucky O'Brien, kidnapped him and 0:01:02.396 --> 0:01:04.956 drove him to the spot where he was murdered. My 0:01:05.076 --> 0:01:09.476 colleague Jack Goldsmith disputes this version of events. Jack is 0:01:09.516 --> 0:01:11.556 a Harvard law professor. He also used to have the 0:01:11.596 --> 0:01:14.036 Office of Legal Counsel in the Department of Justice and 0:01:14.076 --> 0:01:18.276 the George W. Bush administration, and Chuckie O'Brien is, in 0:01:18.316 --> 0:01:21.356 fact his stepfather. Jack is the author of a new 0:01:21.396 --> 0:01:25.836 book called In Haffa's Shadow. A stepfather, a disappearance in Detroit, 0:01:26.036 --> 0:01:28.516 and my search for the truth. I recently had the 0:01:28.596 --> 0:01:31.516 chance to talk to him about it. Jack. I'm thrilled 0:01:31.516 --> 0:01:34.236 that you could join us. This is a great opportunity 0:01:34.236 --> 0:01:35.876 for me to talk to you about something that's been 0:01:35.956 --> 0:01:38.316 very close to your heart, not just in the last 0:01:38.316 --> 0:01:39.876 six or seven years that you've been writing it, but 0:01:40.076 --> 0:01:43.356 in some ways your whole life. So congratulations on the book. 0:01:43.356 --> 0:01:45.036 First of all, thanks so much, and thanks for having 0:01:45.076 --> 0:01:47.236 me here. I want to start with something that might 0:01:47.236 --> 0:01:51.996 be relevant to the younger demographic of our podcast, and 0:01:52.036 --> 0:01:54.516 that is who is Jimmy Hoffa. Other than the fact 0:01:54.516 --> 0:01:57.476 that he disappeared, which I think everybody knows, of whatever age, 0:01:57.916 --> 0:02:00.556 his great significance for American labor history, as I think 0:02:00.596 --> 0:02:02.516 in the the laws, So tell a little bit about that, right, So, 0:02:03.436 --> 0:02:06.636 people under sixty don't really have a sense of Haffa's 0:02:06.636 --> 0:02:11.116 importance in American history, but he was a very consequential 0:02:11.116 --> 0:02:14.356 figure in American history. He was the president of the 0:02:14.396 --> 0:02:17.676 Teams Reunion from nineteen fifty seven to nineteen sixty seven, 0:02:17.716 --> 0:02:20.196 but more importantly than that, for twenty years from the 0:02:20.236 --> 0:02:24.116 forties until the sixties, he was probably the most consequential 0:02:24.116 --> 0:02:27.596 and certainly the best known American labor leader at a 0:02:27.676 --> 0:02:31.436 time when, unlike today, unions were a large force in 0:02:31.476 --> 0:02:34.716 American life. And he led what was the most powerful 0:02:34.796 --> 0:02:38.436 union in the country, and the Teamsters Union, which was 0:02:38.916 --> 0:02:42.756 primarily or largely truckers. That's how it began. But one 0:02:42.756 --> 0:02:46.796 of Haffa's commitments was to organizing anything that boozed, as 0:02:46.796 --> 0:02:50.036 he put it, so he expanded the teamster's jurisdiction dramatically. 0:02:50.596 --> 0:02:53.356 And so he was this very consequential labor leader, and 0:02:53.396 --> 0:02:55.516 at a time when labor was starting to stagnate, the 0:02:55.516 --> 0:02:58.996 Teamsters were still growing. He was a labor organizing genius. 0:02:59.716 --> 0:03:03.156 And he held the promise, and it was a theoretical promise, 0:03:03.196 --> 0:03:05.236 but he held the promise of taking the labor union 0:03:05.356 --> 0:03:07.036 in a very different direction from the one it went. 0:03:07.076 --> 0:03:10.636 It's basically been in decline to early sixties, late fifties. 0:03:11.396 --> 0:03:15.356 The problem with Haffa was that he was basically a 0:03:15.476 --> 0:03:19.756 moral and corrupt by any conventional definition. He did not 0:03:20.276 --> 0:03:23.036 comply with the law. He was indifferent to conventional morality. 0:03:23.476 --> 0:03:26.356 He would do business with anyone on any terms that 0:03:26.476 --> 0:03:28.876 he thought would help him increase his power and his 0:03:28.996 --> 0:03:31.516 union's power. So he did a lot of business and 0:03:31.556 --> 0:03:34.316 made a lot of accommodations. For example, to organize crime, 0:03:34.596 --> 0:03:37.996 he paid off politicians and judges, and this ended up, 0:03:38.756 --> 0:03:40.996 among other things, ruining the promise that he might have 0:03:40.996 --> 0:03:42.956 had for the labor movement. I want to ask you 0:03:42.996 --> 0:03:46.356 about that a moral categorization that you just suggested. I mean, 0:03:46.796 --> 0:03:49.516 it's possible to read your book and think that actually 0:03:49.556 --> 0:03:52.636 Haffa did have a morality of a sort, and it 0:03:52.676 --> 0:03:55.996 was a morality that put the union above everything, and 0:03:56.036 --> 0:03:58.316 on that view, he would break any law as long 0:03:58.356 --> 0:04:00.676 as he was doing it for his union. But there's 0:04:00.716 --> 0:04:04.956 an alternative view that says, well, his union and Jimmy Haffa, 0:04:05.116 --> 0:04:07.076 and he didn't really distinguish between those two. And I 0:04:07.116 --> 0:04:09.036 think that also sometimes comes through in the book. Where 0:04:09.036 --> 0:04:10.836 do you actually come down on that all of the above, 0:04:11.676 --> 0:04:14.316 I think I tried to say conventional moralities what he defied. 0:04:14.876 --> 0:04:16.556 You could say that he had a moral principle and 0:04:16.596 --> 0:04:19.156 that was enhancing his power and the teamster's power, and 0:04:19.196 --> 0:04:21.596 he saw those the same thing, and in fact it 0:04:21.676 --> 0:04:24.156 was the same thing. I mean, he had he was 0:04:24.236 --> 0:04:28.076 collecting cash on the side from so many sources from 0:04:28.116 --> 0:04:31.556 the union, loans, from skims he had with employers and 0:04:31.556 --> 0:04:34.356 the like. But he was not spending the money on himself. 0:04:34.356 --> 0:04:36.596 He was spending it to enhance his power, which he 0:04:36.676 --> 0:04:39.476 was using to enhance the teamster's power. So there's a 0:04:39.516 --> 0:04:44.156 story to tell that he was this truly principled labor leader, 0:04:44.156 --> 0:04:46.556 the principle being that he'll do anything to make his 0:04:46.676 --> 0:04:51.236 union better. He saw the state and management as basically 0:04:51.236 --> 0:04:53.156 being in bed with one another, and they were defying 0:04:53.196 --> 0:04:55.876 the laws. So he developed the view early on that 0:04:56.356 --> 0:05:00.356 law was something to be complied with when it served 0:05:00.356 --> 0:05:05.836 her interests. You say in the book that Chucky Charles O'Brien, 0:05:05.916 --> 0:05:10.196 Chuckie O'Brien was your father from your perspective, your stepfather 0:05:10.876 --> 0:05:14.356 in technical terms about your father, right, and that Jimmy 0:05:14.396 --> 0:05:19.276 Hoffa was effectively a father figure to Chucky. Chuckie called 0:05:19.356 --> 0:05:21.516 him dad, and he referred to Chucky as his son. 0:05:21.796 --> 0:05:23.916 So in some sense, this is a book by the 0:05:24.596 --> 0:05:28.516 indirect grandson of Jimmy Hoffa, and a less likely grandson 0:05:28.516 --> 0:05:31.956 of Jimmy Hoffa could hardly be imagined. I someone who 0:05:32.036 --> 0:05:33.996 was like the younger academic who's looked up to you 0:05:33.996 --> 0:05:37.076 in my whole career, always thought of you as mister Buttondown. 0:05:37.596 --> 0:05:42.356 You know, establishment Republican rock ribbed commitment to the rule 0:05:42.396 --> 0:05:44.436 of law. Rule of law over everything, you know, no 0:05:44.516 --> 0:05:46.076 matter what, even if your career is on the line, 0:05:46.156 --> 0:05:47.676 you've got to stand up for the rule of law. 0:05:48.116 --> 0:05:51.836 So any lineage, however, indirect to Jimmy Hoffa, is kind 0:05:51.836 --> 0:05:54.276 of extraordinary. But that's the framework for the book, isn't 0:05:54.276 --> 0:05:57.196 it So, yes it is. I mean I never met Haffa. 0:05:57.396 --> 0:06:00.316 Haffa disappeared six weeks after my stepfather came into my life. 0:06:00.436 --> 0:06:03.676 But yes, Chucky was closer to him than anyone, and 0:06:03.756 --> 0:06:05.436 he met him when he was nine, and he was 0:06:05.476 --> 0:06:09.796 effectively Chucky's father. Chucky's never really knew his father, and 0:06:10.156 --> 0:06:13.316 Haffa became his effective father, and Chuckie revered him his 0:06:13.436 --> 0:06:18.756 entire life. And yes, Chucky was my father, and especially 0:06:18.836 --> 0:06:21.636 during the most important developmental period of my life, which 0:06:21.636 --> 0:06:24.876 was my teenage years, in which he had an enormous 0:06:24.916 --> 0:06:27.316 influence on me. And so the book is called In 0:06:27.396 --> 0:06:30.356 Halfa's Shadow, and it's really about Chucky being in Halfa's 0:06:30.396 --> 0:06:33.396 shadow as his son and the person who supposedly drove 0:06:33.476 --> 0:06:35.276 him to his death and then my life in the 0:06:35.316 --> 0:06:38.436 shadow of both of them, and in Chuckie's shadow. There's 0:06:38.436 --> 0:06:41.476 an important ethnic dimension to this book. I mean, it's 0:06:41.516 --> 0:06:43.876 almost like a male This book is a true melange 0:06:43.956 --> 0:06:48.196 of different American ethnicities. Are three main American ethnicities Italian 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:53.076 Sicilian Italian particular, which is half of Chucky's heritage, and 0:06:53.156 --> 0:06:56.716 it's his mother, Sylvia's Neopolitan family, or at least Sicilian family. 0:06:57.356 --> 0:07:01.356 Then there's the Irish side, because Chucky's last name is O'Brien, right. 0:07:01.716 --> 0:07:04.716 Then there's Haffa himself, who I think a lot of people, 0:07:04.836 --> 0:07:08.236 especially in my generation, imagine must have been Italian, just 0:07:08.276 --> 0:07:10.516 because his name ends with a vowel. Of course, off, 0:07:10.516 --> 0:07:12.156 it's not an Italian name at all. No name in 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:15.156 Italian starts with a letter H. He was actually of 0:07:15.196 --> 0:07:19.716 a Protestant gotch Irish, I think. Yeah. So in Chucky's life, 0:07:20.196 --> 0:07:25.516 his Italians seems always to have been an important part 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:28.556 of his cultural identity. But he must also have felt 0:07:28.636 --> 0:07:32.676 very intensely that he wasn't fully Sicilian and therefore could 0:07:32.716 --> 0:07:35.796 never be, at least, according to Lure, a made man. 0:07:36.036 --> 0:07:38.036 So he couldn't be a made man because he was 0:07:38.076 --> 0:07:42.476 half Irish. I describe a scene in the book where 0:07:42.516 --> 0:07:45.116 when he was a young man that his mother arranged 0:07:45.196 --> 0:07:48.076 with the Detroit senior members of the Detroit family for 0:07:48.156 --> 0:07:52.276 him to have something akin to an initiation ritual. But 0:07:52.356 --> 0:07:54.956 it wasn't. He never became an official member of the Maffi. 0:07:55.036 --> 0:07:57.716 He couldn't, as you say, because of his heritage. But 0:07:58.356 --> 0:08:00.836 even though he was half Irish and never technically a 0:08:00.836 --> 0:08:04.916 made man, he completely absorbed from a very young age 0:08:04.996 --> 0:08:08.116 his mother's identity. He listened to every word she said, 0:08:08.116 --> 0:08:11.916 and she taught him merta from the very beginning. Omerta, 0:08:12.196 --> 0:08:15.596 the Code of Silence plays a really fascinating role in 0:08:15.596 --> 0:08:18.876 your book. First, at one very basic plot level, it's 0:08:18.916 --> 0:08:22.836 the reason that Chucky won't tell you, at least not 0:08:22.996 --> 0:08:25.156 until the very raid of the book. No spoilers here 0:08:25.596 --> 0:08:29.036 exactly what he does or doesn't know about Haffa's disappearance. 0:08:29.436 --> 0:08:32.716 But Omerta also takes on the role of a kind 0:08:32.716 --> 0:08:35.996 of code of honor for Chucky, and that I wanted 0:08:36.036 --> 0:08:37.516 to ask you about that because one of the things 0:08:37.516 --> 0:08:39.196 that you say in the book is that you show, 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:41.356 don't just say, but show, is how you and your 0:08:41.356 --> 0:08:44.876 different vicissitudes of your life and your feelings towards Chucky, 0:08:44.916 --> 0:08:50.436 towards your dad came ultimately to have some loving respect 0:08:51.236 --> 0:08:54.956 for his sense of honor. Now, how do you reconcile 0:08:55.076 --> 0:09:00.796 that with your own presumable non embrace of the idea 0:09:00.876 --> 0:09:04.396 of a code of silence in connection with criminal activity. 0:09:04.396 --> 0:09:06.716 I mean, if anything, your public career is all about 0:09:06.756 --> 0:09:11.036 refusing to adopt a code of absolute silence. Basically, until 0:09:11.076 --> 0:09:14.316 I started having conversations with Chucky for this book, and 0:09:14.436 --> 0:09:17.756 indeed after we started having conversations with this book, I 0:09:17.876 --> 0:09:24.076 viewed Amerta as self serving, corrupt, crime hiding and opportunistic, 0:09:24.276 --> 0:09:26.676 and in some sense that's what it is. I mean, 0:09:26.716 --> 0:09:28.916 it is a code that is designed to ensure, among 0:09:28.956 --> 0:09:33.516 other things, that you can break the law without being discovered. 0:09:33.716 --> 0:09:37.476 And so for Chucky this was a huge principle, and 0:09:37.516 --> 0:09:39.436 it posed a problem for writing a book for me, 0:09:39.636 --> 0:09:42.196 because I needed to know what he knew if I 0:09:42.516 --> 0:09:44.476 the main thing I set out to do, at least originally, 0:09:44.516 --> 0:09:46.516 the book became much more complicated as I wrote it, 0:09:46.916 --> 0:09:48.796 But the main thing I can't set out to do 0:09:49.076 --> 0:09:52.836 was to clear him from the charge that he basically 0:09:52.996 --> 0:09:55.676 was the person who picked up his basically father and 0:09:55.756 --> 0:09:57.436 drote him to his death. And I didn't believe that, 0:09:57.476 --> 0:10:00.076 and I wanted to clear him, but I needed him 0:10:00.076 --> 0:10:01.516 to be honest with me, and I said this it 0:10:01.596 --> 0:10:03.796 was It was the one condition I gave when when 0:10:03.796 --> 0:10:05.716 we agreed to do the book together. I told him, 0:10:05.796 --> 0:10:07.956 you have to tell me the truth. He basically said, 0:10:07.996 --> 0:10:12.116 I'll try, and he did try, but there was this 0:10:12.276 --> 0:10:16.276 constant roadblock because every time he got to the verge 0:10:16.316 --> 0:10:19.876 of telling me certain things, his mother's visage would appear 0:10:19.876 --> 0:10:21.556 in his head or Uncle Tony would appear in his 0:10:21.596 --> 0:10:24.636 head and he would stop. So over time he told 0:10:24.676 --> 0:10:27.396 me a lot more than I think he intended to, 0:10:27.596 --> 0:10:31.156 and maybe some things that he regretted a bit. And 0:10:31.316 --> 0:10:36.516 also over time I came to admire his commitment to America. 0:10:36.596 --> 0:10:39.196 And here's how I can explain it. This is a 0:10:39.276 --> 0:10:42.836 man who, for over forty years has been falsely accused 0:10:42.996 --> 0:10:47.356 of basically driving Haffa to his death. He lost everything 0:10:47.396 --> 0:10:49.236 because of the Haffa di appearance. He lost his job, 0:10:49.316 --> 0:10:52.276 he lost his otherwise, every other aspect of his honor, 0:10:52.436 --> 0:10:56.236 His reputation was ruined, his physical health was ruined, He 0:10:56.436 --> 0:11:00.076 had troubles with my family. He was basically destroyed by 0:11:00.156 --> 0:11:04.636 Haffa's disappearance. He lost you and some he lost lost 0:11:04.676 --> 0:11:07.556 me for twenty years. I'm not sure how much of 0:11:07.556 --> 0:11:09.276 a lost that was, but he thought it was. From 0:11:09.316 --> 0:11:10.596 what you say in the book, it was an enormous 0:11:10.636 --> 0:11:12.276 It was an enormous loss to him and something I 0:11:12.276 --> 0:11:16.036 didn't appreciate until later in my life. But the thing, 0:11:16.156 --> 0:11:20.036 the one thing he held onto throughout this entire period, 0:11:20.276 --> 0:11:24.596 was this principle. And for him it wasn't opportunistic and 0:11:24.636 --> 0:11:26.956 it wasn't instrumental either. It wasn't just self preservation that 0:11:26.956 --> 0:11:30.076 it wasn't something bad would have happened. If this wasn't 0:11:30.156 --> 0:11:33.476 about him worrying about something happening to him. It was because, 0:11:33.556 --> 0:11:35.236 as he said to me, I'm more than one occasion. 0:11:35.316 --> 0:11:38.196 It's just not right. And the reason I came to 0:11:38.236 --> 0:11:41.196 admire it when I was pushing him and pushing him 0:11:41.236 --> 0:11:42.556 to tell me what he knew and I didn't. I 0:11:42.596 --> 0:11:44.596 never tried to push him too hard. We had these 0:11:44.636 --> 0:11:48.276 strange lines that we both respected. I came to see 0:11:48.276 --> 0:11:51.636 how painful it was for him to struggle to tell 0:11:51.676 --> 0:11:54.356 me what he could and then but not violate his 0:11:54.396 --> 0:11:58.916 own code or his own principles. And I saw how 0:11:58.956 --> 0:12:00.836 important it was to him, and I saw that it 0:12:00.876 --> 0:12:03.476 was the only thing that he had really held on 0:12:03.556 --> 0:12:06.916 to successfully and they had given it. Sounds dramatic, but 0:12:06.916 --> 0:12:08.956 it's true, given his life sort of meaning and order 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:12.156 during all of this terrible ordeal. And so at the 0:12:12.316 --> 0:12:16.036 very end, in our last conversation about half of disappearance, 0:12:16.796 --> 0:12:19.356 when I basically said to him, you know, I just 0:12:19.396 --> 0:12:21.916 really can't believe you're going to take the other things, 0:12:21.916 --> 0:12:24.436 you know, to your grave, and he basically said that 0:12:24.476 --> 0:12:26.876 was what's going to happen. And he was telling me 0:12:26.956 --> 0:12:30.636 this not for any instrumental reason. He in some sense 0:12:30.636 --> 0:12:32.996 he had nothing instrumental to lose and everything instrumental to 0:12:33.036 --> 0:12:36.716 gain by telling me more than he told me. And 0:12:36.996 --> 0:12:38.476 I was, as I say in the book, I was 0:12:38.516 --> 0:12:41.756 in awe of what I described as his eccentric integrity. 0:12:42.636 --> 0:12:46.796 And it was again, it's not a principle that I 0:12:46.916 --> 0:12:50.196 obviously adhered to. It's not something that I would have 0:12:50.236 --> 0:12:53.316 ever thought I would come to admire, but I came 0:12:53.356 --> 0:12:57.116 to admire his commitment to it. Let's talk a little 0:12:57.116 --> 0:13:00.036 bit about your own trajectory of feelings about him in 0:13:00.076 --> 0:13:02.476 connection to your own life, because this book is in 0:13:02.556 --> 0:13:05.156 part memoir written by someone who's probably never going to 0:13:05.196 --> 0:13:09.236 write anything more memoiristic than that. Ever you have, it's 0:13:09.276 --> 0:13:12.916 incredibly kind of idyllic in certain respects set of high 0:13:12.916 --> 0:13:15.916 school years where you are able to develop a relationship 0:13:16.116 --> 0:13:19.916 with Chucky, even though Chucky is the target of all 0:13:19.916 --> 0:13:24.676 of this extraordinary you know, national pursuit, really right, So 0:13:25.236 --> 0:13:28.156 to understand this, when Chuckie came into my life, I 0:13:28.236 --> 0:13:31.316 was twelve years old. I had never really had a 0:13:31.316 --> 0:13:34.156 father at that point. My mother had always been very ill, 0:13:34.796 --> 0:13:37.996 and I remember my childhood as believe it or not happy, 0:13:38.076 --> 0:13:41.476 but objectively it was not. It was not great, and 0:13:41.756 --> 0:13:43.836 I didn't have any father figure in my life, and 0:13:43.876 --> 0:13:46.676 I didn't realize any lack. I just dealt with it. 0:13:47.236 --> 0:13:50.156 But as soon as this man came into my life, 0:13:50.236 --> 0:13:54.956 Chuckie O'Brien, it was it was like Heaven sent and 0:13:55.356 --> 0:13:59.756 he showered me with attention and affection and love. We 0:13:59.836 --> 0:14:04.876 did everything together. I basically admired everything he admired, including 0:14:04.876 --> 0:14:07.836 the team series, union, the labor movement, what with the 0:14:07.836 --> 0:14:11.036 so called mafia as as he called it, and so 0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:14.596 at the height of the Haffa disappearance, and he was 0:14:14.636 --> 0:14:17.836 just being harassed unbelievably understandably, so there were good reasons 0:14:17.836 --> 0:14:20.276 for the government to suspect him at the height of 0:14:20.316 --> 0:14:22.156 the Haffa disappearance, when he was having all sorts of 0:14:22.196 --> 0:14:25.196 troubles in his life, both with the government and with 0:14:25.276 --> 0:14:27.516 his own job. I don't know. I don't know how 0:14:27.556 --> 0:14:29.236 he did it. He was this amazing father, and I 0:14:29.316 --> 0:14:32.676 really think that during the kind of five year period 0:14:32.716 --> 0:14:34.916 in which he was who wish we were closest when 0:14:34.956 --> 0:14:38.676 I was a teenager, and I just think it but 0:14:38.876 --> 0:14:41.676 for his intervention, my life would have taken a very 0:14:41.676 --> 0:14:44.876 different course. Then. In the book, you talk about how 0:14:44.876 --> 0:14:46.956 you go to Washington and Lee to study, to go 0:14:47.036 --> 0:14:50.796 to college, and in a passage set of passages that 0:14:50.836 --> 0:14:53.676 I think is very meaningful to anyone who was once 0:14:53.716 --> 0:14:57.796 close with their father and then had some distancing, you 0:14:57.996 --> 0:15:01.076 really shift talk a little bit about that process of 0:15:01.116 --> 0:15:04.196 how you remake yourself from admiring the teamsters and labor 0:15:04.316 --> 0:15:07.316 unions into you know, I hope this is not this 0:15:07.396 --> 0:15:08.756 is not been a defensive way, but you know, a 0:15:08.836 --> 0:15:12.236 kind of model young Republican who goes on to Yale 0:15:12.316 --> 0:15:14.436 Law School and then clerks for the Supreme Court and 0:15:14.556 --> 0:15:18.196 is well on his way to a career in mainstream 0:15:18.276 --> 0:15:21.036 legal academia and Republican politics. So I didn't know any 0:15:21.076 --> 0:15:23.836 of that was going to happen when I started to change, 0:15:23.996 --> 0:15:26.556 although in some sense I kind of laid the groundwork 0:15:26.596 --> 0:15:28.956 for that. I guess several things happened when I got 0:15:28.996 --> 0:15:32.556 to college. So when I was a teenager, I just 0:15:32.636 --> 0:15:35.836 had never questioned Chucky. I just sometimes a little bit, 0:15:36.116 --> 0:15:38.476 but not really. I fundamentally didn't question, like a lot 0:15:38.476 --> 0:15:41.996 of teenagers were there. And then I get to college, 0:15:41.996 --> 0:15:44.996 and several things start happening. First, education and learning starts 0:15:45.036 --> 0:15:47.316 to become important to me, and it was something that 0:15:47.356 --> 0:15:51.156 he just didn't value at all. Second, I started reading 0:15:51.156 --> 0:15:53.596 books about the half of Disappearance, and the kind of 0:15:53.596 --> 0:15:57.156 objective reality was that Chucky had been involved in lots 0:15:57.156 --> 0:16:01.356 of criminality throughout his life. I started to worry about 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:03.636 whether he would have a dangerous impact on my life. 0:16:04.196 --> 0:16:06.076 And then the third thing was that I started to 0:16:06.076 --> 0:16:08.156 think about my career. I started to look forward and 0:16:08.236 --> 0:16:12.236 think about me could out from under his shadow, and 0:16:12.436 --> 0:16:15.676 even in college and before I went to law, school. 0:16:15.676 --> 0:16:20.436 I had a dim sense that being associated with the 0:16:20.516 --> 0:16:23.156 leading suspect in that Haffa disappearance would not be great, 0:16:23.316 --> 0:16:25.316 might not be great for my legal career, even before 0:16:25.316 --> 0:16:27.476 I started thinking about going for the government. But can 0:16:27.516 --> 0:16:28.836 I can I ask it? This is this is this 0:16:28.956 --> 0:16:32.196 personal question. But it's a memoir. So there was a moment. 0:16:32.236 --> 0:16:33.876 You know, there, you are, you graduate from the late 0:16:33.916 --> 0:16:36.516 Yale law school, You've had You're getting fancy clerkships. You 0:16:36.516 --> 0:16:38.996 even spend a summer at the law firm of Millercassidy, 0:16:39.036 --> 0:16:41.516 Larrocco and Lewin, very very famous firm, which, as you 0:16:41.556 --> 0:16:44.916 point out, was three of the foreign name partners were 0:16:44.956 --> 0:16:47.436 people who had spend time actually trying to put Jimmy 0:16:47.476 --> 0:16:49.636 Hoffa in prison. Which is why I which is why 0:16:49.876 --> 0:16:51.796 I went there. I thought at that point, let me 0:16:51.836 --> 0:16:54.796 just say, millercast day, as you said, was this. It's 0:16:54.836 --> 0:16:56.676 no longer with us. But it was a very prominent 0:16:56.716 --> 0:16:58.556 firm at the time, and it was run by people 0:16:58.596 --> 0:17:00.716 who basically put half in jail. But it was also 0:17:00.756 --> 0:17:04.556 a firm where there was some tolerance of big personalities. 0:17:04.756 --> 0:17:08.916 You could have easily become a famous trial lawyer. You know, 0:17:09.276 --> 0:17:12.396 the association indirect or otherwise, the Hauffam might actually have 0:17:12.396 --> 0:17:14.956 given you some notoriety and you would have been a famous, 0:17:15.036 --> 0:17:18.276 let's call it, democrat leaning figure in that in that world, 0:17:18.516 --> 0:17:21.556 but you very self consciously at that point turned in 0:17:21.636 --> 0:17:24.556 the other direction. You went for government, and not for 0:17:24.676 --> 0:17:29.156 democratic administrations but for Republican administrations. Well, I didn't I 0:17:29.436 --> 0:17:31.356 somewhere in there you became a conservative, is what I'm trying. 0:17:31.676 --> 0:17:33.316 I did. How did that happen? Yes? Okay, So I 0:17:33.356 --> 0:17:35.556 have a relationship between that in your life. So I 0:17:36.396 --> 0:17:38.396 learned about that in writing this book. So I'll tell 0:17:38.396 --> 0:17:40.116 you the story I told myself about that, and then 0:17:40.156 --> 0:17:42.956 I'll tell you what I learned from this book. So 0:17:42.996 --> 0:17:45.396 I had always you know, Washington Lee was kind of 0:17:45.396 --> 0:17:49.956 a conservative place, and I became somewhat conservative at Washington Lee, 0:17:50.076 --> 0:17:52.516 but not terribly self consciously. So I went to Oxford. 0:17:53.156 --> 0:17:55.996 There I kind of had an allergic reaction to the 0:17:56.036 --> 0:17:59.596 anti americanism and kind of came to like Ronald Reagan there. 0:18:00.076 --> 0:18:02.076 Then I went to Yale. I was countercultural, Yes, it 0:18:02.116 --> 0:18:05.236 was countercultural big time. Then I went to Yale Law School. 0:18:05.276 --> 0:18:07.516 And the story I had always and I didn't enjoy 0:18:07.596 --> 0:18:10.276 it Yale Law School, but I just found it intellectually 0:18:10.316 --> 0:18:13.596 and politically stifling. And I definitely grew more conservative Yel 0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:16.356 Law school. And I'd always told myself and this is 0:18:16.396 --> 0:18:18.356 partly the reason that I was reacting to what I 0:18:18.476 --> 0:18:24.396 viewed as unpersuasive or stifling or intellectually closed minded viewpoints 0:18:24.396 --> 0:18:26.036 at the Yel Law School at that time, which were 0:18:26.156 --> 0:18:29.476 for the most part mainstream liberal, mainstream level right solow 0:18:29.476 --> 0:18:30.756 scho at that time was not it was not the 0:18:30.796 --> 0:18:35.756 far left, it wasn't, but it was definitely lockstep, mainstream, lockstep, 0:18:35.796 --> 0:18:38.476 mainstream liberal. And it was also it didn't have much 0:18:38.516 --> 0:18:41.956 tolerance for conservatives. I mean, there wasn't really anyone conservative 0:18:41.956 --> 0:18:45.356 on the faculty, and I just never really fit in. Yeah, 0:18:45.396 --> 0:18:49.276 and I became I was drawn to conservative jursprudence at 0:18:49.316 --> 0:18:52.636 the time, just because I also found liberal jurisprudence to 0:18:52.636 --> 0:18:55.236 be too free wheeling for what my views about law 0:18:55.236 --> 0:18:57.876 were at the time. But here's what I figured out 0:18:57.876 --> 0:19:00.516 writing the book. I also figured out and this as 0:19:00.556 --> 0:19:03.396 soon as I thought about this, it became obvious as 0:19:03.396 --> 0:19:07.476 to why I made these moods. Basically, everything I was 0:19:07.556 --> 0:19:11.236 drawn to in law school intellectual was anti Chucky. So 0:19:11.396 --> 0:19:14.356 I took a labor law class, and I was naturally 0:19:14.436 --> 0:19:18.476 drawn to the employers, and I thought the pro labor 0:19:18.516 --> 0:19:22.156 side of the arguments were unconvincing, both legally and otherwise. 0:19:22.636 --> 0:19:25.036 I was drawn to lawn economics, and a law economics 0:19:25.076 --> 0:19:27.756 view about labor unions is that they're inefficient cartels that 0:19:27.836 --> 0:19:32.636 are basically the mainstream at least, that the Chicago school 0:19:32.636 --> 0:19:36.076 of view is bad for the world. I was drawn 0:19:36.236 --> 0:19:40.876 to conservative jurisprudence in criminal procedure. Chucky had always, you know, 0:19:41.316 --> 0:19:44.636 referred to judges and prosecutors and the Justice Department is corrupt, 0:19:44.836 --> 0:19:48.476 but I was drawn to them, and so part of 0:19:48.516 --> 0:19:51.116 my political identity at the time, I now realized was 0:19:51.276 --> 0:19:55.036 part of separating from Chucky. And I was basically doing 0:19:55.116 --> 0:19:57.876 things and trying to establish a path that was my 0:19:57.916 --> 0:20:00.036 own path, and that was as much as I could 0:20:00.076 --> 0:20:02.476 figure out the opposite of the path from Chucky. And 0:20:02.476 --> 0:20:04.676 there's something very universal about that. I mean, you're not 0:20:04.716 --> 0:20:07.396 the first son to want to define himself very much 0:20:07.436 --> 0:20:11.036 in opposition to his father. So there you are doing that, 0:20:11.276 --> 0:20:14.596 and then comes the part where I got to know you, 0:20:14.676 --> 0:20:17.796 where you found yourself first in the Department of Defense 0:20:17.836 --> 0:20:20.356 in the post nine eleven period as an advisor to 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:23.916 the General Council, and then subsequently, at a crucial moment 0:20:23.956 --> 0:20:26.276 in our country's legal history and in our history generally, 0:20:26.636 --> 0:20:30.556 in the Department of Justice. You touch only briefly in 0:20:30.596 --> 0:20:33.236 the book on your experiences there, but because you've written 0:20:33.236 --> 0:20:35.196 a whole book about it, right, but just say a 0:20:35.196 --> 0:20:37.476 word for the listeners about what, to you was the 0:20:37.476 --> 0:20:39.596 most salient feature of your experience there, and then we'll 0:20:39.596 --> 0:20:42.636 bring that around to Chucky. So I had a job 0:20:42.676 --> 0:20:46.196 briefly where we met in the Department of Defense for 0:20:46.236 --> 0:20:48.956 a year, and it was a job that didn't have 0:20:48.996 --> 0:20:51.196 a lot of responsibility, and it was fun. And I 0:20:51.196 --> 0:20:52.676 worked there for a year and I was headed back 0:20:52.716 --> 0:20:55.356 to the Academy, and then I kind of accidentally was 0:20:55.436 --> 0:20:58.236 offered the head of the Office Legal Council in the 0:20:58.276 --> 0:21:02.956 Justice Department, which was this very consequential, very prestigious, and 0:21:03.396 --> 0:21:07.676 supposedly intellectually fun place to work. When I was offered 0:21:07.716 --> 0:21:10.636 the job, I took it. I thought it was great. 0:21:10.636 --> 0:21:12.396 I thought it was going to be fun and interesting 0:21:12.396 --> 0:21:15.876 and important work that I believed in. I was very 0:21:15.956 --> 0:21:18.116 naive when I went to work at the also Legal Council. 0:21:18.196 --> 0:21:23.076