1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:22,356 --> 00:00:25,316 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:25,716 --> 00:00:29,116 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Today we're going to talk about a 4 00:00:29,116 --> 00:00:31,996 Speaker 1: book that has been getting a lot of attention and deservedly. 5 00:00:32,556 --> 00:00:36,476 Speaker 1: It's about the disappearance and suspected murder of Jimmy Hoffa, 6 00:00:36,516 --> 00:00:39,036 Speaker 1: a man who was at the forefront of the labor 7 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:44,236 Speaker 1: movement in America but also had close connections with the mafia. 8 00:00:44,356 --> 00:00:49,916 Speaker 1: On July thirtieth, nineteen seventy five, Jimmy Hoffa disappeared. The 9 00:00:50,036 --> 00:00:53,236 Speaker 1: commonly articulated view is that Haffa was killed in a 10 00:00:53,276 --> 00:00:57,956 Speaker 1: mafia related hit, and that his friend and longtime associate, 11 00:00:58,236 --> 00:01:02,316 Speaker 1: indeed almost his son, Charles Chucky O'Brien, kidnapped him and 12 00:01:02,396 --> 00:01:04,956 Speaker 1: drove him to the spot where he was murdered. My 13 00:01:05,076 --> 00:01:09,476 Speaker 1: colleague Jack Goldsmith disputes this version of events. Jack is 14 00:01:09,516 --> 00:01:11,556 Speaker 1: a Harvard law professor. He also used to have the 15 00:01:11,596 --> 00:01:14,036 Speaker 1: Office of Legal Counsel in the Department of Justice and 16 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:18,276 Speaker 1: the George W. Bush administration, and Chuckie O'Brien is, in 17 00:01:18,316 --> 00:01:21,356 Speaker 1: fact his stepfather. Jack is the author of a new 18 00:01:21,396 --> 00:01:25,836 Speaker 1: book called In Haffa's Shadow. A stepfather, a disappearance in Detroit, 19 00:01:26,036 --> 00:01:28,516 Speaker 1: and my search for the truth. I recently had the 20 00:01:28,596 --> 00:01:31,516 Speaker 1: chance to talk to him about it. Jack. I'm thrilled 21 00:01:31,516 --> 00:01:34,236 Speaker 1: that you could join us. This is a great opportunity 22 00:01:34,236 --> 00:01:35,876 Speaker 1: for me to talk to you about something that's been 23 00:01:35,956 --> 00:01:38,316 Speaker 1: very close to your heart, not just in the last 24 00:01:38,316 --> 00:01:39,876 Speaker 1: six or seven years that you've been writing it, but 25 00:01:40,076 --> 00:01:43,356 Speaker 1: in some ways your whole life. So congratulations on the book. 26 00:01:43,356 --> 00:01:45,036 Speaker 1: First of all, thanks so much, and thanks for having 27 00:01:45,076 --> 00:01:47,236 Speaker 1: me here. I want to start with something that might 28 00:01:47,236 --> 00:01:51,996 Speaker 1: be relevant to the younger demographic of our podcast, and 29 00:01:52,036 --> 00:01:54,516 Speaker 1: that is who is Jimmy Hoffa. Other than the fact 30 00:01:54,516 --> 00:01:57,476 Speaker 1: that he disappeared, which I think everybody knows, of whatever age, 31 00:01:57,916 --> 00:02:00,556 Speaker 1: his great significance for American labor history, as I think 32 00:02:00,596 --> 00:02:02,516 Speaker 1: in the the laws, So tell a little bit about that, right, So, 33 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:06,636 Speaker 1: people under sixty don't really have a sense of Haffa's 34 00:02:06,636 --> 00:02:11,116 Speaker 1: importance in American history, but he was a very consequential 35 00:02:11,116 --> 00:02:14,356 Speaker 1: figure in American history. He was the president of the 36 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:17,676 Speaker 1: Teams Reunion from nineteen fifty seven to nineteen sixty seven, 37 00:02:17,716 --> 00:02:20,196 Speaker 1: but more importantly than that, for twenty years from the 38 00:02:20,236 --> 00:02:24,116 Speaker 1: forties until the sixties, he was probably the most consequential 39 00:02:24,116 --> 00:02:27,596 Speaker 1: and certainly the best known American labor leader at a 40 00:02:27,676 --> 00:02:31,436 Speaker 1: time when, unlike today, unions were a large force in 41 00:02:31,476 --> 00:02:34,716 Speaker 1: American life. And he led what was the most powerful 42 00:02:34,796 --> 00:02:38,436 Speaker 1: union in the country, and the Teamsters Union, which was 43 00:02:38,916 --> 00:02:42,756 Speaker 1: primarily or largely truckers. That's how it began. But one 44 00:02:42,756 --> 00:02:46,796 Speaker 1: of Haffa's commitments was to organizing anything that boozed, as 45 00:02:46,796 --> 00:02:50,036 Speaker 1: he put it, so he expanded the teamster's jurisdiction dramatically. 46 00:02:50,596 --> 00:02:53,356 Speaker 1: And so he was this very consequential labor leader, and 47 00:02:53,396 --> 00:02:55,516 Speaker 1: at a time when labor was starting to stagnate, the 48 00:02:55,516 --> 00:02:58,996 Speaker 1: Teamsters were still growing. He was a labor organizing genius. 49 00:02:59,716 --> 00:03:03,156 Speaker 1: And he held the promise, and it was a theoretical promise, 50 00:03:03,196 --> 00:03:05,236 Speaker 1: but he held the promise of taking the labor union 51 00:03:05,356 --> 00:03:07,036 Speaker 1: in a very different direction from the one it went. 52 00:03:07,076 --> 00:03:10,636 Speaker 1: It's basically been in decline to early sixties, late fifties. 53 00:03:11,396 --> 00:03:15,356 Speaker 1: The problem with Haffa was that he was basically a 54 00:03:15,476 --> 00:03:19,756 Speaker 1: moral and corrupt by any conventional definition. He did not 55 00:03:20,276 --> 00:03:23,036 Speaker 1: comply with the law. He was indifferent to conventional morality. 56 00:03:23,476 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 1: He would do business with anyone on any terms that 57 00:03:26,476 --> 00:03:28,876 Speaker 1: he thought would help him increase his power and his 58 00:03:28,996 --> 00:03:31,516 Speaker 1: union's power. So he did a lot of business and 59 00:03:31,556 --> 00:03:34,316 Speaker 1: made a lot of accommodations. For example, to organize crime, 60 00:03:34,596 --> 00:03:37,996 Speaker 1: he paid off politicians and judges, and this ended up, 61 00:03:38,756 --> 00:03:40,996 Speaker 1: among other things, ruining the promise that he might have 62 00:03:40,996 --> 00:03:42,956 Speaker 1: had for the labor movement. I want to ask you 63 00:03:42,996 --> 00:03:46,356 Speaker 1: about that a moral categorization that you just suggested. I mean, 64 00:03:46,796 --> 00:03:49,516 Speaker 1: it's possible to read your book and think that actually 65 00:03:49,556 --> 00:03:52,636 Speaker 1: Haffa did have a morality of a sort, and it 66 00:03:52,676 --> 00:03:55,996 Speaker 1: was a morality that put the union above everything, and 67 00:03:56,036 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 1: on that view, he would break any law as long 68 00:03:58,356 --> 00:04:00,676 Speaker 1: as he was doing it for his union. But there's 69 00:04:00,716 --> 00:04:04,956 Speaker 1: an alternative view that says, well, his union and Jimmy Haffa, 70 00:04:05,116 --> 00:04:07,076 Speaker 1: and he didn't really distinguish between those two. And I 71 00:04:07,116 --> 00:04:09,036 Speaker 1: think that also sometimes comes through in the book. Where 72 00:04:09,036 --> 00:04:10,836 Speaker 1: do you actually come down on that all of the above, 73 00:04:11,676 --> 00:04:14,316 Speaker 1: I think I tried to say conventional moralities what he defied. 74 00:04:14,876 --> 00:04:16,556 Speaker 1: You could say that he had a moral principle and 75 00:04:16,596 --> 00:04:19,156 Speaker 1: that was enhancing his power and the teamster's power, and 76 00:04:19,196 --> 00:04:21,596 Speaker 1: he saw those the same thing, and in fact it 77 00:04:21,676 --> 00:04:24,156 Speaker 1: was the same thing. I mean, he had he was 78 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:28,076 Speaker 1: collecting cash on the side from so many sources from 79 00:04:28,116 --> 00:04:31,556 Speaker 1: the union, loans, from skims he had with employers and 80 00:04:31,556 --> 00:04:34,356 Speaker 1: the like. But he was not spending the money on himself. 81 00:04:34,356 --> 00:04:36,596 Speaker 1: He was spending it to enhance his power, which he 82 00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:39,476 Speaker 1: was using to enhance the teamster's power. So there's a 83 00:04:39,516 --> 00:04:44,156 Speaker 1: story to tell that he was this truly principled labor leader, 84 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:46,556 Speaker 1: the principle being that he'll do anything to make his 85 00:04:46,676 --> 00:04:51,236 Speaker 1: union better. He saw the state and management as basically 86 00:04:51,236 --> 00:04:53,156 Speaker 1: being in bed with one another, and they were defying 87 00:04:53,196 --> 00:04:55,876 Speaker 1: the laws. So he developed the view early on that 88 00:04:56,356 --> 00:05:00,356 Speaker 1: law was something to be complied with when it served 89 00:05:00,356 --> 00:05:05,836 Speaker 1: her interests. You say in the book that Chucky Charles O'Brien, 90 00:05:05,916 --> 00:05:10,196 Speaker 1: Chuckie O'Brien was your father from your perspective, your stepfather 91 00:05:10,876 --> 00:05:14,356 Speaker 1: in technical terms about your father, right, and that Jimmy 92 00:05:14,396 --> 00:05:19,276 Speaker 1: Hoffa was effectively a father figure to Chucky. Chuckie called 93 00:05:19,356 --> 00:05:21,516 Speaker 1: him dad, and he referred to Chucky as his son. 94 00:05:21,796 --> 00:05:23,916 Speaker 1: So in some sense, this is a book by the 95 00:05:24,596 --> 00:05:28,516 Speaker 1: indirect grandson of Jimmy Hoffa, and a less likely grandson 96 00:05:28,516 --> 00:05:31,956 Speaker 1: of Jimmy Hoffa could hardly be imagined. I someone who 97 00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:33,996 Speaker 1: was like the younger academic who's looked up to you 98 00:05:33,996 --> 00:05:37,076 Speaker 1: in my whole career, always thought of you as mister Buttondown. 99 00:05:37,596 --> 00:05:42,356 Speaker 1: You know, establishment Republican rock ribbed commitment to the rule 100 00:05:42,396 --> 00:05:44,436 Speaker 1: of law. Rule of law over everything, you know, no 101 00:05:44,516 --> 00:05:46,076 Speaker 1: matter what, even if your career is on the line, 102 00:05:46,156 --> 00:05:47,676 Speaker 1: you've got to stand up for the rule of law. 103 00:05:48,116 --> 00:05:51,836 Speaker 1: So any lineage, however, indirect to Jimmy Hoffa, is kind 104 00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:54,276 Speaker 1: of extraordinary. But that's the framework for the book, isn't 105 00:05:54,276 --> 00:05:57,196 Speaker 1: it So, yes it is. I mean I never met Haffa. 106 00:05:57,396 --> 00:06:00,316 Speaker 1: Haffa disappeared six weeks after my stepfather came into my life. 107 00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:03,676 Speaker 1: But yes, Chucky was closer to him than anyone, and 108 00:06:03,756 --> 00:06:05,436 Speaker 1: he met him when he was nine, and he was 109 00:06:05,476 --> 00:06:09,796 Speaker 1: effectively Chucky's father. Chucky's never really knew his father, and 110 00:06:10,156 --> 00:06:13,316 Speaker 1: Haffa became his effective father, and Chuckie revered him his 111 00:06:13,436 --> 00:06:18,756 Speaker 1: entire life. And yes, Chucky was my father, and especially 112 00:06:18,836 --> 00:06:21,636 Speaker 1: during the most important developmental period of my life, which 113 00:06:21,636 --> 00:06:24,876 Speaker 1: was my teenage years, in which he had an enormous 114 00:06:24,916 --> 00:06:27,316 Speaker 1: influence on me. And so the book is called In 115 00:06:27,396 --> 00:06:30,356 Speaker 1: Halfa's Shadow, and it's really about Chucky being in Halfa's 116 00:06:30,396 --> 00:06:33,396 Speaker 1: shadow as his son and the person who supposedly drove 117 00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:35,276 Speaker 1: him to his death and then my life in the 118 00:06:35,316 --> 00:06:38,436 Speaker 1: shadow of both of them, and in Chuckie's shadow. There's 119 00:06:38,436 --> 00:06:41,476 Speaker 1: an important ethnic dimension to this book. I mean, it's 120 00:06:41,516 --> 00:06:43,876 Speaker 1: almost like a male This book is a true melange 121 00:06:43,956 --> 00:06:48,196 Speaker 1: of different American ethnicities. Are three main American ethnicities Italian 122 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:53,076 Speaker 1: Sicilian Italian particular, which is half of Chucky's heritage, and 123 00:06:53,156 --> 00:06:56,716 Speaker 1: it's his mother, Sylvia's Neopolitan family, or at least Sicilian family. 124 00:06:57,356 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 1: Then there's the Irish side, because Chucky's last name is O'Brien, right. 125 00:07:01,716 --> 00:07:04,716 Speaker 1: Then there's Haffa himself, who I think a lot of people, 126 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:08,236 Speaker 1: especially in my generation, imagine must have been Italian, just 127 00:07:08,276 --> 00:07:10,516 Speaker 1: because his name ends with a vowel. Of course, off, 128 00:07:10,516 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 1: it's not an Italian name at all. No name in 129 00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:15,156 Speaker 1: Italian starts with a letter H. He was actually of 130 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:19,716 Speaker 1: a Protestant gotch Irish, I think. Yeah. So in Chucky's life, 131 00:07:20,196 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 1: his Italians seems always to have been an important part 132 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:28,556 Speaker 1: of his cultural identity. But he must also have felt 133 00:07:28,636 --> 00:07:32,676 Speaker 1: very intensely that he wasn't fully Sicilian and therefore could 134 00:07:32,716 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 1: never be, at least, according to Lure, a made man. 135 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:38,036 Speaker 1: So he couldn't be a made man because he was 136 00:07:38,076 --> 00:07:42,476 Speaker 1: half Irish. I describe a scene in the book where 137 00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:45,116 Speaker 1: when he was a young man that his mother arranged 138 00:07:45,196 --> 00:07:48,076 Speaker 1: with the Detroit senior members of the Detroit family for 139 00:07:48,156 --> 00:07:52,276 Speaker 1: him to have something akin to an initiation ritual. But 140 00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:54,956 Speaker 1: it wasn't. He never became an official member of the Maffi. 141 00:07:55,036 --> 00:07:57,716 Speaker 1: He couldn't, as you say, because of his heritage. But 142 00:07:58,356 --> 00:08:00,836 Speaker 1: even though he was half Irish and never technically a 143 00:08:00,836 --> 00:08:04,916 Speaker 1: made man, he completely absorbed from a very young age 144 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:08,116 Speaker 1: his mother's identity. He listened to every word she said, 145 00:08:08,116 --> 00:08:11,916 Speaker 1: and she taught him merta from the very beginning. Omerta, 146 00:08:12,196 --> 00:08:15,596 Speaker 1: the Code of Silence plays a really fascinating role in 147 00:08:15,596 --> 00:08:18,876 Speaker 1: your book. First, at one very basic plot level, it's 148 00:08:18,916 --> 00:08:22,836 Speaker 1: the reason that Chucky won't tell you, at least not 149 00:08:22,996 --> 00:08:25,156 Speaker 1: until the very raid of the book. No spoilers here 150 00:08:25,596 --> 00:08:29,036 Speaker 1: exactly what he does or doesn't know about Haffa's disappearance. 151 00:08:29,436 --> 00:08:32,716 Speaker 1: But Omerta also takes on the role of a kind 152 00:08:32,716 --> 00:08:35,996 Speaker 1: of code of honor for Chucky, and that I wanted 153 00:08:36,036 --> 00:08:37,516 Speaker 1: to ask you about that because one of the things 154 00:08:37,516 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 1: that you say in the book is that you show, 155 00:08:39,236 --> 00:08:41,356 Speaker 1: don't just say, but show, is how you and your 156 00:08:41,356 --> 00:08:44,876 Speaker 1: different vicissitudes of your life and your feelings towards Chucky, 157 00:08:44,916 --> 00:08:50,436 Speaker 1: towards your dad came ultimately to have some loving respect 158 00:08:51,236 --> 00:08:54,956 Speaker 1: for his sense of honor. Now, how do you reconcile 159 00:08:55,076 --> 00:09:00,796 Speaker 1: that with your own presumable non embrace of the idea 160 00:09:00,876 --> 00:09:04,396 Speaker 1: of a code of silence in connection with criminal activity. 161 00:09:04,396 --> 00:09:06,716 Speaker 1: I mean, if anything, your public career is all about 162 00:09:06,756 --> 00:09:11,036 Speaker 1: refusing to adopt a code of absolute silence. Basically, until 163 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:14,316 Speaker 1: I started having conversations with Chucky for this book, and 164 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:17,756 Speaker 1: indeed after we started having conversations with this book, I 165 00:09:17,876 --> 00:09:24,076 Speaker 1: viewed Amerta as self serving, corrupt, crime hiding and opportunistic, 166 00:09:24,276 --> 00:09:26,676 Speaker 1: and in some sense that's what it is. I mean, 167 00:09:26,716 --> 00:09:28,916 Speaker 1: it is a code that is designed to ensure, among 168 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:33,516 Speaker 1: other things, that you can break the law without being discovered. 169 00:09:33,716 --> 00:09:37,476 Speaker 1: And so for Chucky this was a huge principle, and 170 00:09:37,516 --> 00:09:39,436 Speaker 1: it posed a problem for writing a book for me, 171 00:09:39,636 --> 00:09:42,196 Speaker 1: because I needed to know what he knew if I 172 00:09:42,516 --> 00:09:44,476 Speaker 1: the main thing I set out to do, at least originally, 173 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:46,516 Speaker 1: the book became much more complicated as I wrote it, 174 00:09:46,916 --> 00:09:48,796 Speaker 1: But the main thing I can't set out to do 175 00:09:49,076 --> 00:09:52,836 Speaker 1: was to clear him from the charge that he basically 176 00:09:52,996 --> 00:09:55,676 Speaker 1: was the person who picked up his basically father and 177 00:09:55,756 --> 00:09:57,436 Speaker 1: drote him to his death. And I didn't believe that, 178 00:09:57,476 --> 00:10:00,076 Speaker 1: and I wanted to clear him, but I needed him 179 00:10:00,076 --> 00:10:01,516 Speaker 1: to be honest with me, and I said this it 180 00:10:01,596 --> 00:10:03,796 Speaker 1: was It was the one condition I gave when when 181 00:10:03,796 --> 00:10:05,716 Speaker 1: we agreed to do the book together. I told him, 182 00:10:05,796 --> 00:10:07,956 Speaker 1: you have to tell me the truth. He basically said, 183 00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:12,116 Speaker 1: I'll try, and he did try, but there was this 184 00:10:12,276 --> 00:10:16,276 Speaker 1: constant roadblock because every time he got to the verge 185 00:10:16,316 --> 00:10:19,876 Speaker 1: of telling me certain things, his mother's visage would appear 186 00:10:19,876 --> 00:10:21,556 Speaker 1: in his head or Uncle Tony would appear in his 187 00:10:21,596 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 1: head and he would stop. So over time he told 188 00:10:24,676 --> 00:10:27,396 Speaker 1: me a lot more than I think he intended to, 189 00:10:27,596 --> 00:10:31,156 Speaker 1: and maybe some things that he regretted a bit. And 190 00:10:31,316 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 1: also over time I came to admire his commitment to America. 191 00:10:36,596 --> 00:10:39,196 Speaker 1: And here's how I can explain it. This is a 192 00:10:39,276 --> 00:10:42,836 Speaker 1: man who, for over forty years has been falsely accused 193 00:10:42,996 --> 00:10:47,356 Speaker 1: of basically driving Haffa to his death. He lost everything 194 00:10:47,396 --> 00:10:49,236 Speaker 1: because of the Haffa di appearance. He lost his job, 195 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:52,276 Speaker 1: he lost his otherwise, every other aspect of his honor, 196 00:10:52,436 --> 00:10:56,236 Speaker 1: His reputation was ruined, his physical health was ruined, He 197 00:10:56,436 --> 00:11:00,076 Speaker 1: had troubles with my family. He was basically destroyed by 198 00:11:00,156 --> 00:11:04,636 Speaker 1: Haffa's disappearance. He lost you and some he lost lost 199 00:11:04,676 --> 00:11:07,556 Speaker 1: me for twenty years. I'm not sure how much of 200 00:11:07,556 --> 00:11:09,276 Speaker 1: a lost that was, but he thought it was. From 201 00:11:09,316 --> 00:11:10,596 Speaker 1: what you say in the book, it was an enormous 202 00:11:10,636 --> 00:11:12,276 Speaker 1: It was an enormous loss to him and something I 203 00:11:12,276 --> 00:11:16,036 Speaker 1: didn't appreciate until later in my life. But the thing, 204 00:11:16,156 --> 00:11:20,036 Speaker 1: the one thing he held onto throughout this entire period, 205 00:11:20,276 --> 00:11:24,596 Speaker 1: was this principle. And for him it wasn't opportunistic and 206 00:11:24,636 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 1: it wasn't instrumental either. It wasn't just self preservation that 207 00:11:26,956 --> 00:11:30,076 Speaker 1: it wasn't something bad would have happened. If this wasn't 208 00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:33,476 Speaker 1: about him worrying about something happening to him. It was because, 209 00:11:33,556 --> 00:11:35,236 Speaker 1: as he said to me, I'm more than one occasion. 210 00:11:35,316 --> 00:11:38,196 Speaker 1: It's just not right. And the reason I came to 211 00:11:38,236 --> 00:11:41,196 Speaker 1: admire it when I was pushing him and pushing him 212 00:11:41,236 --> 00:11:42,556 Speaker 1: to tell me what he knew and I didn't. I 213 00:11:42,596 --> 00:11:44,596 Speaker 1: never tried to push him too hard. We had these 214 00:11:44,636 --> 00:11:48,276 Speaker 1: strange lines that we both respected. I came to see 215 00:11:48,276 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 1: how painful it was for him to struggle to tell 216 00:11:51,676 --> 00:11:54,356 Speaker 1: me what he could and then but not violate his 217 00:11:54,396 --> 00:11:58,916 Speaker 1: own code or his own principles. And I saw how 218 00:11:58,956 --> 00:12:00,836 Speaker 1: important it was to him, and I saw that it 219 00:12:00,876 --> 00:12:03,476 Speaker 1: was the only thing that he had really held on 220 00:12:03,556 --> 00:12:06,916 Speaker 1: to successfully and they had given it. Sounds dramatic, but 221 00:12:06,916 --> 00:12:08,956 Speaker 1: it's true, given his life sort of meaning and order 222 00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:12,156 Speaker 1: during all of this terrible ordeal. And so at the 223 00:12:12,316 --> 00:12:16,036 Speaker 1: very end, in our last conversation about half of disappearance, 224 00:12:16,796 --> 00:12:19,356 Speaker 1: when I basically said to him, you know, I just 225 00:12:19,396 --> 00:12:21,916 Speaker 1: really can't believe you're going to take the other things, 226 00:12:21,916 --> 00:12:24,436 Speaker 1: you know, to your grave, and he basically said that 227 00:12:24,476 --> 00:12:26,876 Speaker 1: was what's going to happen. And he was telling me 228 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:30,636 Speaker 1: this not for any instrumental reason. He in some sense 229 00:12:30,636 --> 00:12:32,996 Speaker 1: he had nothing instrumental to lose and everything instrumental to 230 00:12:33,036 --> 00:12:36,716 Speaker 1: gain by telling me more than he told me. And 231 00:12:36,996 --> 00:12:38,476 Speaker 1: I was, as I say in the book, I was 232 00:12:38,516 --> 00:12:41,756 Speaker 1: in awe of what I described as his eccentric integrity. 233 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:46,796 Speaker 1: And it was again, it's not a principle that I 234 00:12:46,916 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 1: obviously adhered to. It's not something that I would have 235 00:12:50,236 --> 00:12:53,316 Speaker 1: ever thought I would come to admire, but I came 236 00:12:53,356 --> 00:12:57,116 Speaker 1: to admire his commitment to it. Let's talk a little 237 00:12:57,116 --> 00:13:00,036 Speaker 1: bit about your own trajectory of feelings about him in 238 00:13:00,076 --> 00:13:02,476 Speaker 1: connection to your own life, because this book is in 239 00:13:02,556 --> 00:13:05,156 Speaker 1: part memoir written by someone who's probably never going to 240 00:13:05,196 --> 00:13:09,236 Speaker 1: write anything more memoiristic than that. Ever you have, it's 241 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:12,916 Speaker 1: incredibly kind of idyllic in certain respects set of high 242 00:13:12,916 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 1: school years where you are able to develop a relationship 243 00:13:16,116 --> 00:13:19,916 Speaker 1: with Chucky, even though Chucky is the target of all 244 00:13:19,916 --> 00:13:24,676 Speaker 1: of this extraordinary you know, national pursuit, really right, So 245 00:13:25,236 --> 00:13:28,156 Speaker 1: to understand this, when Chuckie came into my life, I 246 00:13:28,236 --> 00:13:31,316 Speaker 1: was twelve years old. I had never really had a 247 00:13:31,316 --> 00:13:34,156 Speaker 1: father at that point. My mother had always been very ill, 248 00:13:34,796 --> 00:13:37,996 Speaker 1: and I remember my childhood as believe it or not happy, 249 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 1: but objectively it was not. It was not great, and 250 00:13:41,756 --> 00:13:43,836 Speaker 1: I didn't have any father figure in my life, and 251 00:13:43,876 --> 00:13:46,676 Speaker 1: I didn't realize any lack. I just dealt with it. 252 00:13:47,236 --> 00:13:50,156 Speaker 1: But as soon as this man came into my life, 253 00:13:50,236 --> 00:13:54,956 Speaker 1: Chuckie O'Brien, it was it was like Heaven sent and 254 00:13:55,356 --> 00:13:59,756 Speaker 1: he showered me with attention and affection and love. We 255 00:13:59,836 --> 00:14:04,876 Speaker 1: did everything together. I basically admired everything he admired, including 256 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:07,836 Speaker 1: the team series, union, the labor movement, what with the 257 00:14:07,836 --> 00:14:11,036 Speaker 1: so called mafia as as he called it, and so 258 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:14,596 Speaker 1: at the height of the Haffa disappearance, and he was 259 00:14:14,636 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 1: just being harassed unbelievably understandably, so there were good reasons 260 00:14:17,836 --> 00:14:20,276 Speaker 1: for the government to suspect him at the height of 261 00:14:20,316 --> 00:14:22,156 Speaker 1: the Haffa disappearance, when he was having all sorts of 262 00:14:22,196 --> 00:14:25,196 Speaker 1: troubles in his life, both with the government and with 263 00:14:25,276 --> 00:14:27,516 Speaker 1: his own job. I don't know. I don't know how 264 00:14:27,556 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 1: he did it. He was this amazing father, and I 265 00:14:29,316 --> 00:14:32,676 Speaker 1: really think that during the kind of five year period 266 00:14:32,716 --> 00:14:34,916 Speaker 1: in which he was who wish we were closest when 267 00:14:34,956 --> 00:14:38,676 Speaker 1: I was a teenager, and I just think it but 268 00:14:38,876 --> 00:14:41,676 Speaker 1: for his intervention, my life would have taken a very 269 00:14:41,676 --> 00:14:44,876 Speaker 1: different course. Then. In the book, you talk about how 270 00:14:44,876 --> 00:14:46,956 Speaker 1: you go to Washington and Lee to study, to go 271 00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:50,796 Speaker 1: to college, and in a passage set of passages that 272 00:14:50,836 --> 00:14:53,676 Speaker 1: I think is very meaningful to anyone who was once 273 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:57,796 Speaker 1: close with their father and then had some distancing, you 274 00:14:57,996 --> 00:15:01,076 Speaker 1: really shift talk a little bit about that process of 275 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 1: how you remake yourself from admiring the teamsters and labor 276 00:15:04,316 --> 00:15:07,316 Speaker 1: unions into you know, I hope this is not this 277 00:15:07,396 --> 00:15:08,756 Speaker 1: is not been a defensive way, but you know, a 278 00:15:08,836 --> 00:15:12,236 Speaker 1: kind of model young Republican who goes on to Yale 279 00:15:12,316 --> 00:15:14,436 Speaker 1: Law School and then clerks for the Supreme Court and 280 00:15:14,556 --> 00:15:18,196 Speaker 1: is well on his way to a career in mainstream 281 00:15:18,276 --> 00:15:21,036 Speaker 1: legal academia and Republican politics. So I didn't know any 282 00:15:21,076 --> 00:15:23,836 Speaker 1: of that was going to happen when I started to change, 283 00:15:23,996 --> 00:15:26,556 Speaker 1: although in some sense I kind of laid the groundwork 284 00:15:26,596 --> 00:15:28,956 Speaker 1: for that. I guess several things happened when I got 285 00:15:28,996 --> 00:15:32,556 Speaker 1: to college. So when I was a teenager, I just 286 00:15:32,636 --> 00:15:35,836 Speaker 1: had never questioned Chucky. I just sometimes a little bit, 287 00:15:36,116 --> 00:15:38,476 Speaker 1: but not really. I fundamentally didn't question, like a lot 288 00:15:38,476 --> 00:15:41,996 Speaker 1: of teenagers were there. And then I get to college, 289 00:15:41,996 --> 00:15:44,996 Speaker 1: and several things start happening. First, education and learning starts 290 00:15:45,036 --> 00:15:47,316 Speaker 1: to become important to me, and it was something that 291 00:15:47,356 --> 00:15:51,156 Speaker 1: he just didn't value at all. Second, I started reading 292 00:15:51,156 --> 00:15:53,596 Speaker 1: books about the half of Disappearance, and the kind of 293 00:15:53,596 --> 00:15:57,156 Speaker 1: objective reality was that Chucky had been involved in lots 294 00:15:57,156 --> 00:16:01,356 Speaker 1: of criminality throughout his life. I started to worry about 295 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:03,636 Speaker 1: whether he would have a dangerous impact on my life. 296 00:16:04,196 --> 00:16:06,076 Speaker 1: And then the third thing was that I started to 297 00:16:06,076 --> 00:16:08,156 Speaker 1: think about my career. I started to look forward and 298 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:12,236 Speaker 1: think about me could out from under his shadow, and 299 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:15,676 Speaker 1: even in college and before I went to law, school. 300 00:16:15,676 --> 00:16:20,436 Speaker 1: I had a dim sense that being associated with the 301 00:16:20,516 --> 00:16:23,156 Speaker 1: leading suspect in that Haffa disappearance would not be great, 302 00:16:23,316 --> 00:16:25,316 Speaker 1: might not be great for my legal career, even before 303 00:16:25,316 --> 00:16:27,476 Speaker 1: I started thinking about going for the government. But can 304 00:16:27,516 --> 00:16:28,836 Speaker 1: I can I ask it? This is this is this 305 00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:32,196 Speaker 1: personal question. But it's a memoir. So there was a moment. 306 00:16:32,236 --> 00:16:33,876 Speaker 1: You know, there, you are, you graduate from the late 307 00:16:33,916 --> 00:16:36,516 Speaker 1: Yale law school, You've had You're getting fancy clerkships. You 308 00:16:36,516 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 1: even spend a summer at the law firm of Millercassidy, 309 00:16:39,036 --> 00:16:41,516 Speaker 1: Larrocco and Lewin, very very famous firm, which, as you 310 00:16:41,556 --> 00:16:44,916 Speaker 1: point out, was three of the foreign name partners were 311 00:16:44,956 --> 00:16:47,436 Speaker 1: people who had spend time actually trying to put Jimmy 312 00:16:47,476 --> 00:16:49,636 Speaker 1: Hoffa in prison. Which is why I which is why 313 00:16:49,876 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 1: I went there. I thought at that point, let me 314 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:54,796 Speaker 1: just say, millercast day, as you said, was this. It's 315 00:16:54,836 --> 00:16:56,676 Speaker 1: no longer with us. But it was a very prominent 316 00:16:56,716 --> 00:16:58,556 Speaker 1: firm at the time, and it was run by people 317 00:16:58,596 --> 00:17:00,716 Speaker 1: who basically put half in jail. But it was also 318 00:17:00,756 --> 00:17:04,556 Speaker 1: a firm where there was some tolerance of big personalities. 319 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:08,916 Speaker 1: You could have easily become a famous trial lawyer. You know, 320 00:17:09,276 --> 00:17:12,396 Speaker 1: the association indirect or otherwise, the Hauffam might actually have 321 00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:14,956 Speaker 1: given you some notoriety and you would have been a famous, 322 00:17:15,036 --> 00:17:18,276 Speaker 1: let's call it, democrat leaning figure in that in that world, 323 00:17:18,516 --> 00:17:21,556 Speaker 1: but you very self consciously at that point turned in 324 00:17:21,636 --> 00:17:24,556 Speaker 1: the other direction. You went for government, and not for 325 00:17:24,676 --> 00:17:29,156 Speaker 1: democratic administrations but for Republican administrations. Well, I didn't I 326 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:31,356 Speaker 1: somewhere in there you became a conservative, is what I'm trying. 327 00:17:31,676 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 1: I did. How did that happen? Yes? Okay, So I 328 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:35,556 Speaker 1: have a relationship between that in your life. So I 329 00:17:36,396 --> 00:17:38,396 Speaker 1: learned about that in writing this book. So I'll tell 330 00:17:38,396 --> 00:17:40,116 Speaker 1: you the story I told myself about that, and then 331 00:17:40,156 --> 00:17:42,956 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I learned from this book. So 332 00:17:42,996 --> 00:17:45,396 Speaker 1: I had always you know, Washington Lee was kind of 333 00:17:45,396 --> 00:17:49,956 Speaker 1: a conservative place, and I became somewhat conservative at Washington Lee, 334 00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 1: but not terribly self consciously. So I went to Oxford. 335 00:17:53,156 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 1: There I kind of had an allergic reaction to the 336 00:17:56,036 --> 00:17:59,596 Speaker 1: anti americanism and kind of came to like Ronald Reagan there. 337 00:18:00,076 --> 00:18:02,076 Speaker 1: Then I went to Yale. I was countercultural, Yes, it 338 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:05,236 Speaker 1: was countercultural big time. Then I went to Yale Law School. 339 00:18:05,276 --> 00:18:07,516 Speaker 1: And the story I had always and I didn't enjoy 340 00:18:07,596 --> 00:18:10,276 Speaker 1: it Yale Law School, but I just found it intellectually 341 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:13,596 Speaker 1: and politically stifling. And I definitely grew more conservative Yel 342 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:16,356 Speaker 1: Law school. And I'd always told myself and this is 343 00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:18,356 Speaker 1: partly the reason that I was reacting to what I 344 00:18:18,476 --> 00:18:24,396 Speaker 1: viewed as unpersuasive or stifling or intellectually closed minded viewpoints 345 00:18:24,396 --> 00:18:26,036 Speaker 1: at the Yel Law School at that time, which were 346 00:18:26,156 --> 00:18:29,476 Speaker 1: for the most part mainstream liberal, mainstream level right solow 347 00:18:29,476 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 1: scho at that time was not it was not the 348 00:18:30,796 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 1: far left, it wasn't, but it was definitely lockstep, mainstream, lockstep, 349 00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:38,476 Speaker 1: mainstream liberal. And it was also it didn't have much 350 00:18:38,516 --> 00:18:41,956 Speaker 1: tolerance for conservatives. I mean, there wasn't really anyone conservative 351 00:18:41,956 --> 00:18:45,356 Speaker 1: on the faculty, and I just never really fit in. Yeah, 352 00:18:45,396 --> 00:18:49,276 Speaker 1: and I became I was drawn to conservative jursprudence at 353 00:18:49,316 --> 00:18:52,636 Speaker 1: the time, just because I also found liberal jurisprudence to 354 00:18:52,636 --> 00:18:55,236 Speaker 1: be too free wheeling for what my views about law 355 00:18:55,236 --> 00:18:57,876 Speaker 1: were at the time. But here's what I figured out 356 00:18:57,876 --> 00:19:00,516 Speaker 1: writing the book. I also figured out and this as 357 00:19:00,556 --> 00:19:03,396 Speaker 1: soon as I thought about this, it became obvious as 358 00:19:03,396 --> 00:19:07,476 Speaker 1: to why I made these moods. Basically, everything I was 359 00:19:07,556 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 1: drawn to in law school intellectual was anti Chucky. So 360 00:19:11,396 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 1: I took a labor law class, and I was naturally 361 00:19:14,436 --> 00:19:18,476 Speaker 1: drawn to the employers, and I thought the pro labor 362 00:19:18,516 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 1: side of the arguments were unconvincing, both legally and otherwise. 363 00:19:22,636 --> 00:19:25,036 Speaker 1: I was drawn to lawn economics, and a law economics 364 00:19:25,076 --> 00:19:27,756 Speaker 1: view about labor unions is that they're inefficient cartels that 365 00:19:27,836 --> 00:19:32,636 Speaker 1: are basically the mainstream at least, that the Chicago school 366 00:19:32,636 --> 00:19:36,076 Speaker 1: of view is bad for the world. I was drawn 367 00:19:36,236 --> 00:19:40,876 Speaker 1: to conservative jurisprudence in criminal procedure. Chucky had always, you know, 368 00:19:41,316 --> 00:19:44,636 Speaker 1: referred to judges and prosecutors and the Justice Department is corrupt, 369 00:19:44,836 --> 00:19:48,476 Speaker 1: but I was drawn to them, and so part of 370 00:19:48,516 --> 00:19:51,116 Speaker 1: my political identity at the time, I now realized was 371 00:19:51,276 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 1: part of separating from Chucky. And I was basically doing 372 00:19:55,116 --> 00:19:57,876 Speaker 1: things and trying to establish a path that was my 373 00:19:57,916 --> 00:20:00,036 Speaker 1: own path, and that was as much as I could 374 00:20:00,076 --> 00:20:02,476 Speaker 1: figure out the opposite of the path from Chucky. And 375 00:20:02,476 --> 00:20:04,676 Speaker 1: there's something very universal about that. I mean, you're not 376 00:20:04,716 --> 00:20:07,396 Speaker 1: the first son to want to define himself very much 377 00:20:07,436 --> 00:20:11,036 Speaker 1: in opposition to his father. So there you are doing that, 378 00:20:11,276 --> 00:20:14,596 Speaker 1: and then comes the part where I got to know you, 379 00:20:14,676 --> 00:20:17,796 Speaker 1: where you found yourself first in the Department of Defense 380 00:20:17,836 --> 00:20:20,356 Speaker 1: in the post nine eleven period as an advisor to 381 00:20:20,396 --> 00:20:23,916 Speaker 1: the General Council, and then subsequently, at a crucial moment 382 00:20:23,956 --> 00:20:26,276 Speaker 1: in our country's legal history and in our history generally, 383 00:20:26,636 --> 00:20:30,556 Speaker 1: in the Department of Justice. You touch only briefly in 384 00:20:30,596 --> 00:20:33,236 Speaker 1: the book on your experiences there, but because you've written 385 00:20:33,236 --> 00:20:35,196 Speaker 1: a whole book about it, right, but just say a 386 00:20:35,196 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 1: word for the listeners about what, to you was the 387 00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:39,596 Speaker 1: most salient feature of your experience there, and then we'll 388 00:20:39,596 --> 00:20:42,636 Speaker 1: bring that around to Chucky. So I had a job 389 00:20:42,676 --> 00:20:46,196 Speaker 1: briefly where we met in the Department of Defense for 390 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:48,956 Speaker 1: a year, and it was a job that didn't have 391 00:20:48,996 --> 00:20:51,196 Speaker 1: a lot of responsibility, and it was fun. And I 392 00:20:51,196 --> 00:20:52,676 Speaker 1: worked there for a year and I was headed back 393 00:20:52,716 --> 00:20:55,356 Speaker 1: to the Academy, and then I kind of accidentally was 394 00:20:55,436 --> 00:20:58,236 Speaker 1: offered the head of the Office Legal Council in the 395 00:20:58,276 --> 00:21:02,956 Speaker 1: Justice Department, which was this very consequential, very prestigious, and 396 00:21:03,396 --> 00:21:07,676 Speaker 1: supposedly intellectually fun place to work. When I was offered 397 00:21:07,716 --> 00:21:10,636 Speaker 1: the job, I took it. I thought it was great. 398 00:21:10,636 --> 00:21:12,396 Speaker 1: I thought it was going to be fun and interesting 399 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:15,876 Speaker 1: and important work that I believed in. I was very 400 00:21:15,956 --> 00:21:18,116 Speaker 1: naive when I went to work at the also Legal Council. 401 00:21:18,196 --> 00:21:23,076 Speaker 1: It was two years into after nine eleven, and I 402 00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:25,076 Speaker 1: had no idea what was going on in secret. Some 403 00:21:25,116 --> 00:21:27,636 Speaker 1: of the controversial things the Bush administration was doing in secret, 404 00:21:27,676 --> 00:21:31,236 Speaker 1: stuff that subsequently come out, the interrogation and Black Site program, 405 00:21:32,036 --> 00:21:35,636 Speaker 1: the warrantless wiretapping program known as Stellar Wind. I can't 406 00:21:35,636 --> 00:21:37,476 Speaker 1: believe I can say those words, but I can now, 407 00:21:38,236 --> 00:21:43,356 Speaker 1: and those two programs, especially when I got there through 408 00:21:43,396 --> 00:21:46,516 Speaker 1: a very complicated set of events, I was required to 409 00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:49,396 Speaker 1: address their legality, even though it had already been ruled 410 00:21:49,476 --> 00:21:51,756 Speaker 1: upon and had been those rulings have been relied upon, 411 00:21:52,436 --> 00:21:56,716 Speaker 1: and I could not find my way to signing off 412 00:21:56,756 --> 00:21:59,676 Speaker 1: on them, and both of them. I had strong objections too, 413 00:21:59,756 --> 00:22:01,436 Speaker 1: and took steps as best I could. It was a 414 00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 1: completely unprecedented situation from start to finish in terms of 415 00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:08,156 Speaker 1: removing or withdrawing opinions that have been relied on in 416 00:22:08,196 --> 00:22:11,756 Speaker 1: the middle of the war intelligence operations. So knowing what 417 00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:13,836 Speaker 1: the right thing to do was was very hard. It 418 00:22:13,916 --> 00:22:21,116 Speaker 1: was also just impossibly stressful because basically I was being 419 00:22:21,116 --> 00:22:22,716 Speaker 1: told that if I do these things, people are going 420 00:22:22,756 --> 00:22:25,076 Speaker 1: to get killed. All these people who were out in 421 00:22:25,116 --> 00:22:28,036 Speaker 1: the world relying on these opinions to fight against al Qaeda, 422 00:22:28,116 --> 00:22:31,316 Speaker 1: I would be undermining them. So it was a very 423 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:34,276 Speaker 1: very difficult time. And then, exercising your own version of 424 00:22:34,276 --> 00:22:36,916 Speaker 1: eccentric integrity, you did what you thought you had to 425 00:22:36,956 --> 00:22:40,196 Speaker 1: do as a legal matter, and then you resigned. I did. 426 00:22:40,236 --> 00:22:43,796 Speaker 1: I resigned in June, basically ten months, nine and a 427 00:22:43,796 --> 00:22:47,116 Speaker 1: half months after I got there. After I had withdrawn 428 00:22:47,196 --> 00:22:49,916 Speaker 1: one of the torture opinions, I resigned, which led to 429 00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:51,676 Speaker 1: some of the people who had seen you as a 430 00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:54,956 Speaker 1: friend and ally seeing you as somehow a critic or 431 00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:56,676 Speaker 1: someone on the outside, or someone who had let them 432 00:22:56,676 --> 00:23:00,116 Speaker 1: down or maybe broken their version of the code of Vomerta. 433 00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:01,876 Speaker 1: I didn't think about it that way. But let's just 434 00:23:01,956 --> 00:23:05,716 Speaker 1: say that I wasn't terribly I wasn't viewed well in 435 00:23:05,756 --> 00:23:09,596 Speaker 1: Bush administration circles. I was viewed as some one who 436 00:23:10,036 --> 00:23:12,156 Speaker 1: it was I was viewed very unterriably, someone who was 437 00:23:12,756 --> 00:23:16,396 Speaker 1: acting politically, trying to cover my own bottom. These are preposterous. Indeed, 438 00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:18,396 Speaker 1: the reason I wrote The Terror Presidency. I wasn't even 439 00:23:18,396 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 1: going to write a book about my time in the 440 00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:23,236 Speaker 1: Bush administration. But when people in the Bush administration started 441 00:23:23,316 --> 00:23:26,316 Speaker 1: charging me with acting in an unprincipled way and being 442 00:23:26,356 --> 00:23:29,836 Speaker 1: political and trying to cover my bottom. I decided, well, 443 00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:31,836 Speaker 1: there's another side to that, and I'm gonna tell it. 444 00:23:32,076 --> 00:23:34,836 Speaker 1: And every step I took I didn't I wasn't sure 445 00:23:34,876 --> 00:23:36,796 Speaker 1: if I was doing the right thing or not. It 446 00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:39,636 Speaker 1: was very, very difficult. So then you emerge from this 447 00:23:39,876 --> 00:23:44,516 Speaker 1: extraordinary public experience, standing on principle as you understood it, 448 00:23:45,356 --> 00:23:47,996 Speaker 1: being praised by the people who were not your friends before, 449 00:23:48,356 --> 00:23:50,556 Speaker 1: people to your left, who suddenly you were, that you 450 00:23:50,596 --> 00:23:53,316 Speaker 1: were everybody's favorite conservative, not my favorite moment I had, 451 00:23:53,316 --> 00:23:55,276 Speaker 1: not a favorite moment, and criticized by the people who 452 00:23:55,276 --> 00:23:57,916 Speaker 1: you were friends and allies my favorite moment. And in 453 00:23:57,956 --> 00:24:01,236 Speaker 1: just that moment, and I think this is just poetically incredible, 454 00:24:01,796 --> 00:24:07,156 Speaker 1: you decide to reconcile with Chucky. Right, not a coincidence, 455 00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:10,236 Speaker 1: Not a coincidence. This whole old thing in the government. 456 00:24:10,516 --> 00:24:15,316 Speaker 1: It was entirely discombobulating. It was discombobulating to my view 457 00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:17,116 Speaker 1: of the world, to my view of right and wrong, 458 00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:22,076 Speaker 1: to my tendency to be judgmental when I was a 459 00:24:22,116 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 1: younger man, to my religious faith, which had redoubled and 460 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:28,556 Speaker 1: strengthened it sounds like enormously. When I was in the government, 461 00:24:28,756 --> 00:24:31,916 Speaker 1: it really deepened and went on in a different path 462 00:24:32,516 --> 00:24:35,396 Speaker 1: for all these reasons. Plus, as I said earlier, I 463 00:24:35,436 --> 00:24:39,116 Speaker 1: had two tiny little babies, and my affection and my 464 00:24:39,196 --> 00:24:42,796 Speaker 1: love for my children and my vulnerability towards them caused 465 00:24:42,796 --> 00:24:45,636 Speaker 1: me to rethink entirely what I had done to Chucky, 466 00:24:45,796 --> 00:24:50,876 Speaker 1: especially since you know, basically when I was at the pinnacle, 467 00:24:50,956 --> 00:24:53,716 Speaker 1: the thing that I had renounced him so that I 468 00:24:53,716 --> 00:24:55,836 Speaker 1: could achieve in a way twenty years earlier, and I 469 00:24:55,876 --> 00:24:59,116 Speaker 1: got to the what was supposedly the pinnacle, and I 470 00:24:59,196 --> 00:25:01,516 Speaker 1: got there inside the Justice Department, this place that he 471 00:25:01,556 --> 00:25:05,436 Speaker 1: had always derided as lawbreaking, corner cutting, self serving and 472 00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:08,236 Speaker 1: the like. And lo and behold, if he wasn't in 473 00:25:08,276 --> 00:25:10,356 Speaker 1: some sense which he he could barely articulate, but in 474 00:25:10,356 --> 00:25:13,596 Speaker 1: a very real, concrete sense, he was right. So all 475 00:25:13,596 --> 00:25:18,556 Speaker 1: of these experiences led me to be much more humble 476 00:25:18,676 --> 00:25:23,636 Speaker 1: and about myself and judging others, and to really deeply 477 00:25:23,676 --> 00:25:26,076 Speaker 1: regret the pain I had caused him. And my mother 478 00:25:26,156 --> 00:25:28,316 Speaker 1: and my brothers had always told me what extraordinary pain 479 00:25:28,396 --> 00:25:30,756 Speaker 1: I had cost him, But until I have my own children, 480 00:25:30,796 --> 00:25:33,156 Speaker 1: I really didn't appreciate what that was like. And then 481 00:25:33,196 --> 00:25:37,676 Speaker 1: there's this incredible, deeply Christian, though not in a doctrinal sense, 482 00:25:37,716 --> 00:25:40,716 Speaker 1: but in the spiritual sense prodigal son moment in the book, 483 00:25:40,716 --> 00:25:43,276 Speaker 1: which I alluded to earlier, where you go back to 484 00:25:43,356 --> 00:25:46,476 Speaker 1: Chucky and you tell him that you're sorry yea and 485 00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:49,396 Speaker 1: to me one of the most moving moments that I 486 00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:51,596 Speaker 1: can imagine, tell me what to what he says. We 487 00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:55,276 Speaker 1: were sitting watching Zeinfeld one night and complete and this 488 00:25:55,356 --> 00:25:56,916 Speaker 1: was I had come down there, and it was the 489 00:25:56,956 --> 00:25:59,036 Speaker 1: first time I had seen him. It was the second 490 00:25:59,076 --> 00:26:00,556 Speaker 1: time i'd seen him in twenty years, and the first 491 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:02,116 Speaker 1: time i'd been nice to him. I just wasn't very 492 00:26:02,196 --> 00:26:04,876 Speaker 1: nice to him. I was not nice to him. We 493 00:26:04,956 --> 00:26:07,436 Speaker 1: had a great couple of days together. He was clearly 494 00:26:07,516 --> 00:26:10,036 Speaker 1: very happy that we were getting a long after so 495 00:26:10,116 --> 00:26:12,756 Speaker 1: long of not talking and not getting along. And we're 496 00:26:12,796 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 1: sitting there watching Seinfeld, and I didn't really give it 497 00:26:15,956 --> 00:26:17,556 Speaker 1: a lot of thought. I knew I wanted to ask 498 00:26:17,596 --> 00:26:19,556 Speaker 1: for his forgiveness. And I turned to him and I said, 499 00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:22,316 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry what I did to you and all 500 00:26:22,316 --> 00:26:24,196 Speaker 1: the pain I cost you for those twenty years. I'm 501 00:26:24,236 --> 00:26:27,036 Speaker 1: just terribly, terribly sorry, and I hope you forgive me. 502 00:26:28,436 --> 00:26:30,476 Speaker 1: And he was not well at the time. He's not 503 00:26:30,516 --> 00:26:32,636 Speaker 1: well now, but he was not well at the time, 504 00:26:32,876 --> 00:26:36,156 Speaker 1: and he had had severe diabetes. And he looked at 505 00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:39,276 Speaker 1: me and his face was ashen, and he looked at 506 00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:42,596 Speaker 1: me with a puzzled look, and his eyes watered, and 507 00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:47,316 Speaker 1: he looked both surprised and shocked, and he said to me, basically, 508 00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:52,076 Speaker 1: you don't have to ask my forgiveness. I understand why 509 00:26:52,116 --> 00:26:54,156 Speaker 1: you did what you did, and I love you very much. 510 00:26:56,116 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's hard to imagine a better or 511 00:26:59,156 --> 00:27:01,236 Speaker 1: a rich answer that a father could give a son. 512 00:27:02,596 --> 00:27:05,636 Speaker 1: It was basically what he had written me twenty five 513 00:27:05,716 --> 00:27:07,236 Speaker 1: years earlier, when I blew him off. He wrote me 514 00:27:07,276 --> 00:27:10,916 Speaker 1: this extraordinary letter that I reproduced in the book, in 515 00:27:10,956 --> 00:27:12,836 Speaker 1: which he basically said, you've hurt me a lot, but 516 00:27:12,956 --> 00:27:15,556 Speaker 1: I can take it, and you have to make your 517 00:27:15,556 --> 00:27:17,396 Speaker 1: decisions now that you're a young man. This is twenty 518 00:27:17,476 --> 00:27:19,556 Speaker 1: years earlier, but I just want you to know that 519 00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:21,556 Speaker 1: I love you very much. And it was basically the 520 00:27:21,596 --> 00:27:23,996 Speaker 1: same thing that he said when I asked for his forgiveness, 521 00:27:23,996 --> 00:27:27,076 Speaker 1: and he gave it, and he gave it without any qualification, 522 00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:30,156 Speaker 1: without any I told you so, it's without any regret 523 00:27:30,356 --> 00:27:32,636 Speaker 1: or rank or we just from that moment on it 524 00:27:33,276 --> 00:27:35,876 Speaker 1: it was as if those twenty years didn't happen. And 525 00:27:35,996 --> 00:27:38,396 Speaker 1: I think from your perspective, maybe tell me if this 526 00:27:38,436 --> 00:27:42,756 Speaker 1: is right. This book is your second response to his letter. 527 00:27:42,836 --> 00:27:44,756 Speaker 1: This is a loving response to his letter. It's a 528 00:27:44,796 --> 00:27:47,396 Speaker 1: book length response to his expression of love. And I 529 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:50,316 Speaker 1: read the book itself as an expression of your love 530 00:27:50,356 --> 00:27:54,076 Speaker 1: for him. There's there's objectivity in it, and there's judgment, 531 00:27:54,116 --> 00:27:56,036 Speaker 1: and there's an attempt to come to terms with your 532 00:27:56,036 --> 00:27:58,836 Speaker 1: father in terms of who he was, and with yourself 533 00:27:59,356 --> 00:28:02,996 Speaker 1: and with your indirect grandfather. So there's honesty pervading it. 534 00:28:03,036 --> 00:28:04,996 Speaker 1: But I think it's also a book written from deep love. 535 00:28:05,196 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 1: It certainly was. I mean I I set out to 536 00:28:07,556 --> 00:28:11,236 Speaker 1: write the book with the narrow goal of trying to 537 00:28:11,276 --> 00:28:13,156 Speaker 1: give him a fair shake than history had given him, 538 00:28:13,156 --> 00:28:15,916 Speaker 1: and hopefully to clear his name from the terrible state 539 00:28:15,956 --> 00:28:18,716 Speaker 1: of having been the person who drove off. At was done, 540 00:28:18,876 --> 00:28:21,356 Speaker 1: it definitely set out as that it grew to be 541 00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:24,716 Speaker 1: so much more complicated in ways that I couldn't have imagined. 542 00:28:24,756 --> 00:28:27,356 Speaker 1: And the reader will have to decide whether I whether 543 00:28:27,396 --> 00:28:29,716 Speaker 1: it seems like an act of love. It certainly was 544 00:28:29,756 --> 00:28:32,356 Speaker 1: that to me. But at the same time, as you say, 545 00:28:32,396 --> 00:28:34,516 Speaker 1: I felt like I had to be candid, incredible to 546 00:28:34,556 --> 00:28:37,676 Speaker 1: try to clear him. I'm an interested observer and so i'm, 547 00:28:37,716 --> 00:28:39,996 Speaker 1: you know, in times in describing him in the book, 548 00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:42,396 Speaker 1: I'm tough. I'm tough on myself as well. But yes, 549 00:28:42,436 --> 00:28:46,236 Speaker 1: it was an act of love and really an act 550 00:28:46,276 --> 00:28:50,356 Speaker 1: of hopeful atonement. The book is extraordinary, and even if 551 00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:51,956 Speaker 1: a reader had never heard of Jimmy Off, I think 552 00:28:51,956 --> 00:28:54,956 Speaker 1: it would be an incredible read. And I think somebody 553 00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:56,676 Speaker 1: who also knows you and looks up to you, the 554 00:28:56,676 --> 00:28:59,116 Speaker 1: book is really really profoundly moving. Thank you very much. 555 00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:08,036 Speaker 1: You're very kind. Thanks huh. Jack Goldsmith's book is called 556 00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:11,556 Speaker 1: in Half a Shadow, a Stepfather, A disappearance in Detroit, 557 00:29:11,796 --> 00:29:14,276 Speaker 1: and My Search for the Truth. And now for our 558 00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:28,996 Speaker 1: sound of the week. Those are airstrikes hitting the Syrian 559 00:29:29,076 --> 00:29:33,396 Speaker 1: town of Rasslaine on the Syrian Turkish border this Wednesday. 560 00:29:33,916 --> 00:29:36,996 Speaker 1: Those are the sounds of an invasion that certainly looks 561 00:29:37,076 --> 00:29:39,796 Speaker 1: like the beginning of a war in which the government 562 00:29:39,796 --> 00:29:43,076 Speaker 1: of Turkey will attempt to cleanse a large swath of 563 00:29:43,196 --> 00:29:47,436 Speaker 1: territory in northern Syria of Kurds who see themselves as 564 00:29:47,476 --> 00:29:50,916 Speaker 1: the enemies of Turkey and whom Turkey treats as terrorists. 565 00:29:51,876 --> 00:29:54,996 Speaker 1: In one way, this is just another manifestation of a 566 00:29:55,076 --> 00:29:58,276 Speaker 1: historical truth over the last century in the Middle East, namely, 567 00:29:58,436 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: the Kurds almost always lose big powers that surround the 568 00:30:03,236 --> 00:30:08,396 Speaker 1: areas where they live. Whether it's Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, 569 00:30:08,836 --> 00:30:11,756 Speaker 1: or ultimately, the United States as an outside actor, have 570 00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:15,996 Speaker 1: consistently blocked the Kurds from achieving their dream of a 571 00:30:16,116 --> 00:30:20,956 Speaker 1: larger and more significant country called Kurdistan. In that sense, 572 00:30:21,316 --> 00:30:24,356 Speaker 1: the betrayal of the Kurds, this time by the United 573 00:30:24,356 --> 00:30:28,956 Speaker 1: States government authorizing effectively the Turkish government to go in 574 00:30:28,996 --> 00:30:31,196 Speaker 1: and clear the Kurds out of this part of Syria, 575 00:30:31,436 --> 00:30:34,276 Speaker 1: is simply business as usual in the brutal history of 576 00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:38,916 Speaker 1: the Middle East. What makes this instance particularly nasty, however, 577 00:30:39,356 --> 00:30:42,636 Speaker 1: is how recently the United States was completely dependent on 578 00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:46,356 Speaker 1: these particular Kurdish militias to fight the battle against the 579 00:30:46,396 --> 00:30:50,556 Speaker 1: Islamic State. Remember, almost nobody in the region wanted to 580 00:30:50,596 --> 00:30:53,996 Speaker 1: provide boots on the ground to fight isis The United 581 00:30:53,996 --> 00:30:56,716 Speaker 1: States did not want to provide significant numbers of soldiers, 582 00:30:56,916 --> 00:31:00,116 Speaker 1: and as a consequence of the slow process whereby other 583 00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:04,076 Speaker 1: countries stepped up, it took years to eliminate the brutality 584 00:31:04,116 --> 00:31:06,796 Speaker 1: of the Islamic state and reduce it to the tiny 585 00:31:06,916 --> 00:31:11,036 Speaker 1: rump organization that it is today. The Kurds bore the 586 00:31:11,156 --> 00:31:14,916 Speaker 1: brunt of the fight against ISIS, and now the United 587 00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:18,836 Speaker 1: States has betrayed them, and done so in a spectacularly 588 00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:23,756 Speaker 1: obvious way. Does this shock the Kurds? Probably not. Does 589 00:31:23,756 --> 00:31:26,196 Speaker 1: it sadden everybody who thinks that the United States should 590 00:31:26,236 --> 00:31:31,116 Speaker 1: stand by its allies? Yes, it absolutely does. The question 591 00:31:31,116 --> 00:31:34,476 Speaker 1: that remains is is the immorality of the betrayal of 592 00:31:34,476 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 1: the Kurds justified in light of real politique. That's a 593 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:43,276 Speaker 1: question that actually can't be answered with any great precision. 594 00:31:44,276 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 1: Many people with good knowledge of the situation on the ground, 595 00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:50,436 Speaker 1: including a good number of former US military generals, have 596 00:31:50,556 --> 00:31:52,996 Speaker 1: taken the stance that the United States is shooting itself 597 00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:55,716 Speaker 1: in the foot by siding with Turkey against the Kurds, 598 00:31:56,116 --> 00:31:59,116 Speaker 1: because if we fail to stand by our allies, no 599 00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:01,116 Speaker 1: one will stand up and fight with us the next time. 600 00:32:01,596 --> 00:32:05,196 Speaker 1: That's a realist argument for why the abandonment is a 601 00:32:05,276 --> 00:32:08,676 Speaker 1: bad idea yet it's also inevitably the case that when 602 00:32:08,716 --> 00:32:11,876 Speaker 1: it comes to finding allies in the Middle East, everyone 603 00:32:11,956 --> 00:32:14,556 Speaker 1: knows the name of the game. The enemy of my 604 00:32:14,756 --> 00:32:18,116 Speaker 1: enemy is my friend. The Kurds had no particular love 605 00:32:18,156 --> 00:32:20,436 Speaker 1: for the United States. They did deal with the United 606 00:32:20,476 --> 00:32:24,076 Speaker 1: States to fight Isis because it was in their interests. Meanwhile, 607 00:32:24,116 --> 00:32:29,116 Speaker 1: the United States acted similarly in that sense. Real politique says, 608 00:32:29,436 --> 00:32:32,036 Speaker 1: betray your enemies whenever you want. You always know you 609 00:32:32,036 --> 00:32:35,036 Speaker 1: can get away with it in the end. I don't 610 00:32:35,036 --> 00:32:37,796 Speaker 1: think ultimately that the question of the morality of the 611 00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:41,876 Speaker 1: American Act, which is unquestionably lousy, can outweigh the real 612 00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:46,796 Speaker 1: politique argument in real world, hard nosed Middle Eastern politics. 613 00:32:47,316 --> 00:32:50,036 Speaker 1: So we need to ask about the bigger picture consequences 614 00:32:50,076 --> 00:32:53,316 Speaker 1: of this particular action by Turkey, which the United States 615 00:32:53,356 --> 00:32:57,116 Speaker 1: has effectively embraced. And here is where the real politique 616 00:32:57,196 --> 00:33:01,756 Speaker 1: arguments against the Turkish invasion of northern Syria become especially strong. 617 00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:06,076 Speaker 1: After all, what's Turkey doing. It's not just ridding itself 618 00:33:06,556 --> 00:33:11,916 Speaker 1: of potentially pesky Kurdish militias on its border. Turkey is 619 00:33:11,956 --> 00:33:15,756 Speaker 1: also aspiring to create a substantial area that will be 620 00:33:15,836 --> 00:33:20,156 Speaker 1: a haven for a couple of million Syrian Sunni Arabs 621 00:33:20,316 --> 00:33:25,076 Speaker 1: who at present are stuck in Turkish refugee camps, and who, 622 00:33:25,676 --> 00:33:29,676 Speaker 1: according to Turkey, will now live quasi permanently in the 623 00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:32,036 Speaker 1: northern part of Syria that is not the part of 624 00:33:32,036 --> 00:33:34,756 Speaker 1: the country where they traditionally lived, but is in fact 625 00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:39,316 Speaker 1: the place where Kurge traditionally lived. Put another way, what 626 00:33:39,356 --> 00:33:43,196 Speaker 1: Turkey is doing is trying to effectuate an ethnic cleansing 627 00:33:43,236 --> 00:33:47,156 Speaker 1: and the replacement of one Syrian population Syrian Kurds, with 628 00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:52,276 Speaker 1: another Syrian population, Syrian Arabs rite along their border. The 629 00:33:52,396 --> 00:33:55,916 Speaker 1: history of such population transformations in the region is a 630 00:33:55,956 --> 00:33:59,396 Speaker 1: long one, and it is almost inevitably a story of failure. 631 00:34:00,036 --> 00:34:05,956 Speaker 1: Moving populations around creates new conflicts, angerish people, creates permanent resentments, 632 00:34:06,236 --> 00:34:10,116 Speaker 1: creates a sense of permanent refugee status, places some people 633 00:34:10,116 --> 00:34:12,356 Speaker 1: to the benefit of others, and doesn't even give all 634 00:34:12,396 --> 00:34:14,316 Speaker 1: the advantages that one would hope for to the people 635 00:34:14,356 --> 00:34:16,516 Speaker 1: who are in fact being settled there. It is a 636 00:34:16,556 --> 00:34:21,276 Speaker 1: fake solution to the Syrian refugee crisis. That is what 637 00:34:21,396 --> 00:34:24,476 Speaker 1: is pragmatically wrong with the United States government standing by 638 00:34:24,676 --> 00:34:27,996 Speaker 1: and allowing the government of Turkey to engage in this 639 00:34:28,036 --> 00:34:32,756 Speaker 1: transformation of the northern part of Syria. So when you 640 00:34:32,876 --> 00:34:36,156 Speaker 1: hear that the United States has betrayed the Kurds, that's true. 641 00:34:36,756 --> 00:34:39,956 Speaker 1: It's morally wrong. But on its own it's not enough 642 00:34:40,036 --> 00:34:42,676 Speaker 1: of an argument to say that pragmatically this was a mistake. 643 00:34:43,116 --> 00:34:46,436 Speaker 1: The true mistake lies in the naive fantasy that by 644 00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:49,036 Speaker 1: putting a new population in a new part of Syria, 645 00:34:49,116 --> 00:34:53,356 Speaker 1: Turkey can somehow solve the Syrian refugee crisis. It can't. 646 00:34:53,396 --> 00:34:57,196 Speaker 1: The consequences will be eventually renewed civil war, greater violence, 647 00:34:57,196 --> 00:35:00,796 Speaker 1: and more deaths. And that's why we should feel sad 648 00:35:01,076 --> 00:35:07,636 Speaker 1: when we hear the sound of Turkish military attacks on Syria. 649 00:35:11,796 --> 00:35:14,756 Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 650 00:35:14,796 --> 00:35:17,876 Speaker 1: producer is Lydia Gene Coott, with engineering by Jason Gambrel 651 00:35:18,076 --> 00:35:21,796 Speaker 1: and Jason Roskowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme 652 00:35:21,876 --> 00:35:24,676 Speaker 1: music is composed by Luis GERA special thanks to the 653 00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:28,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg and Mia Lobel. I'm 654 00:35:28,836 --> 00:35:32,116 Speaker 1: Noah Feldman. You can follow me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. 655 00:35:32,476 --> 00:35:33,876 Speaker 1: This is Deep Background.