1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: My name is Matt. Our colleague Nol is on an adventure, 6 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: but he will return soon. They call me Ben. We're 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission Control decond. 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you, You are here, and that 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: We go to some pretty dark places in the show, Matt, 11 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: especially recently. Uh this is uh, this is one where 12 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: we can kick our feet up in the beginning and 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: talk about the finer things in life, you know, because 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: because uh, despite at least my background here, as I 15 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: move around this room, uh we I would say, you 16 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: and I have some refined taste, right and most people do. 17 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: What are what are some examples of stuff that you 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,919 Speaker 1: what are some examples of stuff that you're like willing 19 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: to spend a little extra money on for the quality? 20 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: The most Delicious of the caffe Also, I brought a 21 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: few things here, Ben, I love it. Peteret, the most Delicious, 22 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: Hazel nut wafers. They're so good and fine art. Oh, 23 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: a fellow intellectual, I see, now, those are all Those 24 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: are all fantastic examples. Dude, I wish I had. I mean, 25 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: I've got a bunch of creepy old books, of course, 26 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: but that's a little niche. And you know you nailed it. 27 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: Those are excellent examples. And almost everybody, I would say, 28 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: not just the people listening today, We all have refined 29 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: taste for like at least one or two things or another. 30 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: You know, you might be really into classic cars. You 31 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: don't care what. You don't care a whit about coffee, 32 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: but you need to have a good classic car. You 33 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: might be a sneaker head. You might only have limited 34 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: release you know Jordan's. You might spend a lot of 35 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: time and income chasing down limited release music or rare books, 36 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: or expensive clothing or symbols. Get it, Oh yeah, Ziligion symbols. 37 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: One of the world's oldest, continually functioning companies. I think 38 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: actually might be the world's oldest. And they are mass 39 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: produced for the most part, but there are some, there 40 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: are some rare children. That's awesome, and you know it 41 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: might be like, um, we have a pal a friend 42 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: of the show, the one and only Mr Ramsey Gunt 43 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: who as a producer here with us uh in he 44 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:12,119 Speaker 1: has a particular, particularly refined taste for Japanese whiskey. And 45 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 1: I know it's a whole thing. It's old genre, but 46 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: with all of the examples that you and I are naming, 47 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: each of those has become the foundation of a massive 48 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: global industry, and today us you beautifully set us up 49 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: for exploring one of the most high end, most mysterious 50 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: of these industries, the weird world of fine art. It's 51 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: a place picture it, fellow conspiracy realists, where the rich, 52 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: the creative, and the criminal mingle and the oddest of 53 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: then diagrams, a business that orbits the lives of some 54 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: of the world's most powerful people. It's a world that 55 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: is alien to the vast majority of human beings alive today, 56 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: and honestly, many of the art world's insiders hope and 57 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: pray that it's stays that way forever. Why well, uh, 58 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: here are the facts. Yes, uh so, this art world 59 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: that is rather you know, foreign too many of our experiences, 60 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: is actually vast, very very large, much larger than you 61 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: imagine in your head. And probably that you assume, uh, 62 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: and it's always been I don't know. There's there's a 63 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: fascination to it. If you think back to films that 64 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: you've seen, anything from Oceans eleven to I don't know, Ben, 65 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: you'd have to name like a few other of these 66 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: Bond films. There's this aristocracy to to this stuff. Um, 67 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, and you you just imagine the money in 68 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: this space because you you may, even if you don't 69 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: know much about the art scene, you may have seen 70 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: galleries or auctions where just millions and millions of dollars 71 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: are being thrown around at art and you think, why right, 72 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: and you you nailed like, you nailed it. I love 73 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: the I love the image. It's a trope now of 74 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: people aggressively bidding for something. I was just playing finally 75 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:20,559 Speaker 1: Uncharted four if you be Uncharted series. Yeah, and there's 76 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: a there's there's an auction scene. This is not a spoiler, 77 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: but there's an auction scene where people are trying to 78 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: bid on an artifact. We'll touch on the world of 79 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: antiquities a bit today too. I suspect and there's a 80 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: lot there, Yeah, exactly, and it's beat for beat. The 81 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,119 Speaker 1: scene you see in films where there's like one guy 82 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: who's holding up his little you know, his little sign thing, 83 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: you know, like two million, Do I have dow million 84 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: two million, two million, three million? Or do I have 85 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: three point five? Three point five? And then you know, 86 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: some other guy makes a stink face and he's like, yeah, 87 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: three point five, and then it just keeps going, and 88 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: then you know, inevitably there's it's usually I think the 89 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: bad guy who just gets tired of the cat and 90 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: mouse game and throws up their little thing and their 91 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: little paddle and just names of stupidly high number and 92 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: they're like five hundred billion dollars and everyone's like, oh wow, 93 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: dang uh, Now we have to do a heist. And 94 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: there is a reason for pushing up the price of 95 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: art in that way that I'm sure we'll be talking 96 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: about later this Oh boy, yeah, I mean, it's it's 97 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: a contradictory world, isn't it. It's also when there has 98 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: long been a subject of special fascination for the disciples 99 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: of the dismal science economist. At the most basic level, 100 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: the art market is it's just a bunch of people 101 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: buying stuff. It's a bunch of people selling stuff, and 102 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: they're just happened to be trading in works of art, 103 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: or we could loosely call them art related services. There 104 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: are two parts, two big categories. The primary market that's 105 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: where new art hits the scene, and then the secondary 106 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: market that's for art that has been sold at least 107 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: once before. And the art market it's not the same 108 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: as buying a used car. The used market or the 109 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: secondary market is where you see a lot of the 110 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: big money changing hands because the price the secondary market 111 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: is usually going to be dictated by the price at 112 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: which a given piece sold the first time around. Um, 113 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: but not quite. There's a reason the economists like this 114 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: well without getting two in the weeds, eggheads dig it 115 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: because it involves so much more than just supply and demand. Yeah, 116 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: if you imagine with the Zildian symbols, You've got certain 117 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,679 Speaker 1: components that make this thing up, you know, different metals 118 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: that are melted down to then create this thing, and 119 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: it's it's uh, I'm man, I might be I might 120 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: be stretching here a little bit, but I'm just imagining that. 121 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: With with art, it is something that is created out 122 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: of those components, but it's a brand new thing and 123 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: you have to value has to be placed upon that 124 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: part of it, and that value is very subjective. Yeah, 125 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: beautifully put. And I love I love that you're bringing 126 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: up the aspect of the components there, Matt, because let's 127 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: take that Zilgian example, which is awesome. You can all 128 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: you can predict the cost of the components, right, and 129 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: then you can you can predict the amount of labor 130 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,599 Speaker 1: right required to make one symbol, and then with that information, 131 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: you can predict the price you can sell it at, 132 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: and then you can predict the profit. But in the 133 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: world of art, like, it's such a good question how 134 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: much did the canvas and the paint cost for the 135 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: Mona Lisa, right, because you're not buying the cost of 136 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: the paint at this point. Uh. It's It's a fantastic 137 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: point and it's something that economists spend a lot of 138 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: time on because of that subjective value. How do we 139 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: how do we quantify it? How do we put a 140 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: number on a non quantitative thing. That's why the art 141 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: world has elements of what they would call a prediction market. 142 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: The art in question has kind of a fluid, fluctuating 143 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: financial value, and that cultural value is a huge piece 144 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: of this. You know, like, um, the right real world 145 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: circumstances can massively increase the value of a given artist work. Sadly, 146 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 1: when they die, that that has that becomes a big deal. 147 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: We can talk about that. And um, maybe when the 148 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: movers and shakers of the art world, like an influential 149 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: critic says, this is the new boss Scyatt, right, or 150 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: this is this is the next you know, Free to 151 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: Carlo or something, then boom, people want to be someone 152 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: who already had their finger on the pulse. Uh. This 153 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: this also can happen with things like beanie babies by 154 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: the way, yes, oh yeah, and magic cards. But it 155 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: is it's weird to think that value can be generated 156 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: out of nothing from a piece a single piece of art, 157 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: because of it's like singular cultural value. But then similarly, 158 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: it can be placed on the creator of that art, right, 159 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, anything this artist touches is going 160 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: to be elevated up to that level, which is a 161 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's so strange to me that both 162 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: can can occur and the only way that that's generated 163 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: is by other people deciding that that artist or piece 164 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: of art is worth x amount of millions. Yeah, and 165 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: you know, you and I are lucky enough to know 166 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: a lot of phenomenal artists both as just friends of 167 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: ours out side of of the orbit of this show, 168 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: and then also, and I'm grateful for this, we have 169 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: come to know a lot of amazingly talented artists through 170 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: this show, specifically through stuff they don't want you to know. 171 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: And it always I don't know about you, man, but 172 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: it always makes my day when someone says, hey, you know, 173 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: I listened to your show while I'm sculpting or doing 174 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: iron working or painting, and here's a little thing that 175 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: I thought you guys would like. And when I see it, 176 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: I have to be honest, I hope this doesn't come 177 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: back to bite us. But usually when I see those things, 178 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: my first thought is, damn, that is so much better 179 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: than the actual show, because the level of accomplishment there 180 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: is is stunning. Well, you know, shout out to Turbo 181 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: Benson first of all, but also this piece of art 182 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: that I held up, this is an original nagel, like 183 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: a Georgia nagle from It's a local artist here in Georgia. 184 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: I have to in my collection and it is seriously 185 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: amazing stuff, So look out for it. It'll be going 186 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: on auction sometime in that's amazing. Well you say that now, 187 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: but we never know, and we the reason we never 188 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: know is because there's another there's another weird thing that 189 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: comes into play in the economics of the art world. 190 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: It's called the greater fool principle. It means, yeah, somebody 191 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: will pay a certain price for something, even if it 192 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: might seem crazy high, because there's an assumption, let's be honest, 193 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: a bet made that later they'll be able to sell 194 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: it to somebody else for a higher price, and that 195 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: person will later often attempt to do the same. So 196 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: it's kind of like a snarky name for what happens. 197 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: But what what it's implying is that it might be 198 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: foolish for me to buy this thing at this price, 199 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: but there will be someone more foolish than me in 200 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: the future, and somewhere down the road somewhere. Surely I 201 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: am not the world's dumbest person. Or are we saying art? 202 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: Art is of really long game hot potato um for 203 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: some people? Actually, yeah, you know, for some people it is, 204 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,719 Speaker 1: and of course for others this is just something that 205 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: is of great personal, historical, or cultural value. You know, 206 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: like sometimes you'll see well healed philanthropists buy up, buy 207 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: up pieces from an artist who they feel is underappreciated, 208 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: who comes from their hometown or their home region, or 209 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: their you know, their home community, and they'll do it 210 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 1: because they want to inspire the people living in that 211 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: in that place. You know. Um, I'm just making up 212 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: an example, and I have a specific one. But let's 213 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: say there is a multimillionaire maybe in Botswana or maybe 214 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: in Panama or whatever, and they want to have a 215 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: museum with local art to enrich the culture of the 216 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: bull living in Botswana or Panama. Then they might spend 217 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: a lot of money buying this stuff and making a 218 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: museum for it. And to them it's just a good deed, 219 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing crooked about it. But when we 220 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: look at stuff like a Stewart Plotner's work for American anthologists, 221 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: we see that this is a distinct, strange financial ecosystem. First, 222 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: it's notoriously opaque. There is absolutely no way to get 223 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: a full, comprehensive high level look at private sale data. 224 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely no way, zero, zip, zilch way uh. And added 225 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: to that, about half of the global transactions in the 226 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: art world are thought to be composed entirely of private sales. 227 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: That's the last part. Let's put emphasis on global there. 228 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: Oh it's huge, it's huge. Let's talk stats and just yeah, 229 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: just to get into that what we're talking about here, 230 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: we mentioned all the auctions and everything that's often in 231 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: public that's often like promoted like, hey, on our auction. 232 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: This is happening. Look at all of the transactions that 233 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: are occurring here. When we're talking about private sales, it's 234 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: just hey, Ben, I've got this nagle, Ben goes Okay, 235 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: I'll take it for this amount of money done. That's 236 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: a private sale. That's it's over. Uh, and who knows 237 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: how much Ben paid for it? But still like this 238 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: is crazy. I certainly don't tell Paul when I'm selling 239 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: it to him. I haven't had it for a year yet. Uh. 240 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: Just some weird rules in there too. But let's know 241 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: many of these stats, like you said, Ben, throughout last year, 242 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: the global art market was valued at fifty billion dollars. 243 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: Fifty billion dollars for art, Okay, and uh, when we're 244 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: talking about that lack of transparency like that we're discussing 245 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: right here, fifty billion is probably not quite it could 246 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: be a little more, a little less, who knows, right, 247 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: But we're gonna we'll we'll use it as our running 248 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: number at least for this conversation. But here's the deal. Uh, 249 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: that number, fifty billion is actually significantly less than what 250 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: was spent in the previous year before COVID in twenty nineteen, 251 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: it was around sixty four billion dollars, So fourteen billion 252 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: got knocked off the top when galleries and other places 253 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: were closed and auctions weren't able to be you know, 254 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: produced the same way that they were in the previous year. 255 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: And people are still guessing, right again that you pointed 256 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: out how muddy that number is because there is zero 257 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: accountability in the private, the private aspects of this market. 258 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: This number, this fifty billion dollars, go ahead and doctor 259 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: evil your pinky up there with us, folks, is uh. 260 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: It represents somewhere around thirty one point four million known transactions, 261 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: meaning thirty one point for million different individual sales of 262 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: art that are known to have occurred over the course 263 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: of the US has the most skin in the game 264 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: or pain in the canvas. They have the highest total 265 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: share of the global market. China has the highest share 266 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: of fine art auction revenue. That's the stuff. That's the 267 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: stuff you're talking about, right, Matt, The money that churns 268 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: when outfits like Christie's or Southby's hold auctions for picassos 269 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: and mountainets and what have you. So we've explained a 270 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,959 Speaker 1: little bit about the sheer financial depth of the market, 271 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: but this also sets us up to talk about the 272 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: ways in which that market might be smaller than outsiders. Assume. 273 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: Here's the simple truth. We'll just uh, let the quiet 274 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: badger be the loud one in this part of the conversation. Yeah, 275 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: most people can't actually afford to pay millions of dollars 276 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: or even hundreds of thousands of dollars for a single 277 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: piece of art unless they have like a clear plan 278 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: to flip it for profit. The luxury of buying a 279 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: piece of art for with historical cultural personal value and 280 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: then just like hanging it up in your mansion or 281 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: somewhat cottage that that's or on your yacht, that's a 282 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: privilege that's restricted to very very few people in modern 283 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: society because of the way inequality works, and like every 284 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: other industry, the community gets smaller and smaller and smaller 285 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: at the top, which means that the movers and the shakers, 286 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: they're increasingly likely to personally know each other, or if 287 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: they don't personally know each other, they're increasingly likely to 288 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: know another individual's position in the hierarchy, including their big 289 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: sales and purchases. That's why sometimes you'll hear somebody described 290 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: as like a minor correct contemporary every y'all, you know 291 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: what I mean, Like that they bought, they bought a 292 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: couple of war hauls, but they're not a big fish 293 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: to the big fish. How much money just to set 294 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: this up are we talking about? In the auction house, 295 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 1: Christie's sold Da Vinci Salvatore Monday for four hundred and 296 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: fifty point three million dollars. That's one painting, that's one sale. 297 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: That's a lot of money. That's more money than most 298 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: people will ever see in the entirety of their lives. 299 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: And it was sold to someone in the upper echelons 300 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: of the Saudi government or within the family that a 301 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: close associate of the Crown Prince. I mean, that's how 302 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: you can say Saudi Government and Olive Garden have the 303 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: same same tagline. When you're here, your family, but we're 304 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: just talking about this hierarchy. There's a story you can 305 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: read about from several years ago where Daniel Ratcliffe, you know, 306 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: Harry Potter, you say, this guy's probably got some money. 307 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: This guy is really well known. Uh. He was attempting 308 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: to buy some fine art, but he was refused by 309 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: I believe the person running the gallery, as in, like, 310 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: I'm we're looking for, you know, someone a little more 311 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: suited to purchase this are like someone within the art world, right, 312 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: the insider he got new moneyed, he got new moneyed. 313 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: Uh again like I don't know the full story. I 314 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: was reading it in one of the articles I was 315 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: going through today. But he eventually got to purchase the 316 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: painting because the artist themselves found out that it was 317 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: Daniel Radcliffe and was like, oh, yeah, you can buy 318 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: my painting. But the the gallery or the people selling 319 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: it wanted to keep it insular within that high art world. Yeah. 320 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: Oh wow. And and that sounds like if the artists 321 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: hadn't have known, they would have had no control over that. Interesting. 322 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: Interesting that kind of avoids the free market idea that's 323 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: so often touted. These two examples show us some pretty 324 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: fascinating stuff. In the case of that Da Vinci this 325 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: sale was unprecedented. It blew it blew all the previous 326 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: records out of the water, and it emphasized something that 327 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,719 Speaker 1: happens in the secondary market. Artists can become incredibly profitable 328 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: once they've died, because you know, they're not making any 329 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: new sculptures or collages or paintings. The supply is inherently limited, 330 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: and if demand increases for any reason, prices can skyrocket. 331 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: And yes, to be fair, when we're talking about the 332 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: Da Vincis of the art world, we're kind of talking 333 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: about the equivalent of blue chip stocks. Their priced way 334 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: above what most other art in the world would be priced. 335 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: And as you can imagine, I've gotta talk about controversies. 336 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: We're not even the crazy part yet. With this much money, 337 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: with this much opacity and play, there's more than enough 338 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: room in the shadows of the auction house for crimes 339 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: and conspiracies. It would be actually would be pretty astonishing 340 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: if this wasn't the case. Art theft is a big deal. 341 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: We already talked about epic art heist. Those are just 342 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: a small slice of the pie because we don't know 343 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: much about the successful heist where something got lost or 344 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: got replaced by a forgery, which does happen more than 345 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: you think. Uh, there's a thriving black market in stolen 346 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: goods and in antiquities. This stuff affects everything from like 347 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: an archaeological dig in the hinterlands of Old Samaria to 348 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: the world's most prestigious museums who may not know that 349 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: they are uh participating with the best of intentions in 350 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: criminal acts. So and we've heard from curators who listened 351 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: to the show who have told us, like people work 352 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: in the world of museums have told us, figuring out 353 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: the provenance of an artifact can be can be really challenging. 354 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: But people are making their best faith efforts to, you know, 355 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,479 Speaker 1: help make sure they're not like aiding in the betting 356 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: war crimes, which is probably something a lot of folks 357 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: don't anticipate when they're getting into that career. But the 358 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: truth of the matter is it's a huge problem, especially 359 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: with museums and antiquities. Oh, for sure, I would direct 360 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: everybody over to the Atlantic dot com to read the 361 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: tomb Raiders of the Upper East Side. There's a story, 362 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: and well, there are many stories within that story, but 363 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: one of them is about the Metropolitan Museum of Art 364 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: in New York and how they purchased something from Egypt 365 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: that was you know, a a mummy less coffin, right, 366 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: and they allegedly didn't really under fully understand the providence 367 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: of this thing. But it was found after investigators proved 368 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: that this this thing was just taken, this coffin was 369 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: just stolen and it was made out of almost all gold, 370 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: and the mummy that was inside of it was just 371 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: dumped into the river and it was there were false 372 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: documents set up to then sell it to the Metropolitan 373 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: Museum of Art. But they like, they didn't really check anything. 374 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: They just went, oh, here's an antiquity from Egypt, and 375 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: they just bought it because they knew the value that 376 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: it had and they didn't even check out, you know, 377 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: how it got to them or who who raided a 378 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: tomb essentially to get it to them. Um. And it's 379 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: all about for me, it's about looking away when you're 380 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: the person making a purchase, because you know the inherent value. 381 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: You know, you can flip something. You look away from 382 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,719 Speaker 1: the actual providence of the thing. Yeah, if it is 383 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: the actual thing. Because one of the other big big 384 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: problems is is forgery. You've probably heard that old chestnut. 385 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: Great artists steal, while you know middling or mediocre artists copy. 386 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: There's truth to that, and artists themselves have spoken about 387 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: their influences, and different people in the art world go 388 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: go pretty far and acknowledging when a certain piece of 389 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: art seems derivative of some earlier work. And this happens 390 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: in any creative endeavor, from music to writing to dance. 391 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: Imitation of that sort is both expected and openly acknowledged 392 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: by most people involved. But it crosses the line when 393 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: a talented but unknown artist turns to the dark side 394 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: and make fake callows or fake GEORGEO o'keefson sells them 395 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: as the genuine article. This is forgery. It's a continual, 396 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: ongoing crime, and there are countless examples of very successful 397 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: forgery operations. You could almost make a yearly list, uh, Like, 398 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: I was looking through this and I found year by year. 399 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: I didn't found one for twenty twenty one, but I 400 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: found from twenty on back year by year list of 401 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: like the most successful forgery. So it definitely happens. But 402 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: today's episode is not about forgery, even though it's inherently 403 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,719 Speaker 1: a conspiratorial crime. It's just the tip of the paintbrush. 404 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: For decades and decades, if not centuries, the world of 405 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: fine art has been home to another larger conspiracy. Conspiracy 406 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: that is arguably and art all its own money laundry. 407 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: I know, when are we talking about? Yeah, we'll tell 408 00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: you after a word from our sponsor. Here's where it 409 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: gets crazy, okay, Well, the fixes in the world's most 410 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: high ticket art is part of a global business with 411 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: tons of secrecy and a laughably small amount of toothless regulation. 412 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: Makes it a great place to hide money if you're 413 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: trying to avoid the tax ban, or if you've got 414 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: a lot of dirty cash and need of a good scrub. 415 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: This is where a pretty cool guy named Noriel Rubini, 416 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: economist and why you professor comes into play. What I 417 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: love about this guy, Matt. He's got a street name, 418 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: which not all professional economists do. His street name is 419 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: doctor Doom because he he made a lot of very dire, 420 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: incredibly accurate predictions about the housing crisis and financial crash 421 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: of the early two thousand's. So people column Dr do. 422 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: I wonder what he's saying about the housing market right now? 423 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: Um Doom and gloom? Maybe who knows I don't want 424 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: to look okay, but what he shows us is how 425 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: one person, an individual can purchase a really expensive piece 426 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: of art worth let's say a million dollars, and they 427 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: can pay cash, just slide it on over, and there's 428 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: no need for them to register the transaction because there's 429 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: because well in some cases you could get around it basically, 430 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: and there's virtually no tie to the financial system when 431 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: a transaction like that occurs. Yeah, we don't need a 432 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: lot of paperwork involved. Did this you know what I mean? Uh. 433 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: The opaque nature the art industry also makes it a 434 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: haven for tax evasion and lucrative pieces of art are 435 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: exchanged all the time, but not in the way you 436 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: might think. Because the artwork might never physically change hands, 437 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: it can be stored at these things called free ports 438 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: for an unlimited amount of time. And quick explanation, I 439 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,239 Speaker 1: think for some of us in the crowd who might 440 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: not know what freeports are. But yes, I was gonna say, 441 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: Tenant is where I think a lot of a lot 442 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: of folks get hip to it. Uh, don't feel bad 443 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: if you if you haven't seen Tenant and you don't 444 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: know what freeports are. Because the truth of the matter 445 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: is that there are a ton of people who would 446 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: prefer that you never actually think about these things. So essentially, like, 447 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: you know, depending on where you live, folks, you probably 448 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: have some kind of public storage business in your neck 449 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: of the global woods. And you know, you know what 450 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: it is. It's a bunch of like tiny garage looking things. 451 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: And when people have stuff that they don't want to 452 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: throw away but they don't have room for in their 453 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: house or apartment, they rent one of those things, like 454 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: by the month or by the year to store their junk. 455 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,959 Speaker 1: Very wealthy people do that too, but they do it 456 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: in a much more sophisticated, expensive manner. Freeports are super 457 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: secure warehouses for collections of millionaires and billionaires. This isn't 458 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: just art, it's not just Picasso. It could be straight 459 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: up bricks of gold. It could be golden gets, it 460 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: could be vintage ferraris, it could be crazy expensive wine. Uh. 461 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: These things are found in countries where you would expect 462 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: a lot of very wealthy people to store very expensive things. Switzerland, Luxembourg, Singapore. Uh. 463 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: And it's very advantageous to you if you want to 464 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: avoid paying the government anything because those goods. When they're 465 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: stored in a freeport, they're technically still in transit, so 466 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: it's kind of it's kind of like they told FedEx 467 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: to say, just tell me it's always on the way. Yeah, 468 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: it hasn't quite arrived in the UK yet, so you 469 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: don't have to pay those taxes when it was being 470 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: shipped from the US. Well, it's just whatever it's in transit. Yeah. 471 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: A while back, The Economist reported that of the freeport 472 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: near the Geneva Airport, just on its own is suspected 473 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: to hold the equivalent of a hundred billion US dollars 474 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: in art. So not counting the ferraris, nor the wine, 475 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: nor the in gets of gold and platinum. This stuff 476 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: can be stored years, decades. There's really not a time limit. 477 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: There's one other interesting mechanism freeports. We have to throw 478 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: in once something is inside the freeport. Like let's say 479 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: a piece of art is inside the freeport, a bend 480 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: bowl in original I make a lot of art, but 481 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: I don't sell it. Let's somehow it ends up in 482 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: a freeport. That art can be sold privately and anonymously 483 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,959 Speaker 1: to other buyers, and it never has to leave the warehouse. 484 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: They're just trading money using that thing, as you know, 485 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: sort of the mad live in what they're buying. WHOA, 486 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: so you yeah, that feels like a good way. You 487 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: can't really clean money that way, but that's a weird thing. 488 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: Well you you can in some ways. Rubini compares this 489 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: dr Doom, compares this to the role that Swiss banks 490 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: used to play. He told CNN. You know, they're an alternative, 491 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: he said. Maybe an alternative is just to buy an 492 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: expensive piece of art and hide it in a freeport 493 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: in Europe. Nobody knows what it is that becomes the 494 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: equivalent of a safe deposit in a bank previously in Switzerland. 495 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: The other thing is, no one is sure about the 496 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: extent of this problem. Even the people making money off 497 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: of it think about it. No one knows the origin 498 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: of the dirty money. It could be drug money, it 499 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: could be financial crimes, robberies, trafficking, profits, you name it. 500 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: Also know when sure how often it happens, and no 501 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: one is sure how deep it goes. It's definitely weapons sales, 502 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: by the way. Uh So The n y T New 503 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: York Times ran a story earlier this year about a 504 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: very surprising case. You can read right now, if you've 505 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: got enough free New York Times articles, Yeah, you can't 506 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: get a subscription if you want to. Uh, but I 507 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: was able to read this. There's an accused drug dealer. 508 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: His name was Ronald Bellichiano, and he was in Philadelphia 509 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: and the Feds raided his house. They found, you know, 510 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: the things that you would find of a suspected drug 511 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: dealer if they are in fact a drug dealer, Lots 512 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: and lots of marijuana. They found about two point five 513 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: million dollars hidden in a compartment beneath a fish tank, 514 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: which you can see a picture of. It just looks 515 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: like a box, and I had cash stuffed in it 516 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: with an aquarium on top of it. But here's the 517 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: other thing. They found art, real art, like expensive fine art, 518 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: a whole cash of it. Yeah, they did. At a 519 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: storage feunit, not a freeport, just like a regular public 520 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: storage unit, just a few miles away from his house. 521 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: They found thirty three paintings stacked up. They also have 522 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,959 Speaker 1: found fourteen paintings in his home. This wasn't from like 523 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: his kids high school painting class. This is stuff like 524 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: Brenois Picasso, Salvador Dolli, and belt Seato had used the 525 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: art to launder some of his drug cash. He purchased 526 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: the works from this gallery near Philadelphia's Museum Row. It's 527 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: a solid operation basically until it isn't, and the NYT 528 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: sums it up by saying buyers typically have no idea 529 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: where the work they're purchasing is coming from. Sellers are 530 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: in the dark about where work is going. None of 531 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: the purchasing requires the filing and paperwork that would allow 532 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: regulators to track art sales or profits. It's distinctly different 533 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: from the way the government can review the transfer of 534 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: other assets like stocks or real estate. Now we need 535 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: to talk about the other thing, and I think it's 536 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: something people in the audience were anticipating. Power is not 537 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: always limited to money. Money is just a medium of 538 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: exchange for power. It's a coupon system. It's symbolic. The 539 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: fine art market has also been seen as a way 540 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: to pedal political influence, and the most notable accusation in 541 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: the West in recent years for this kind of thing 542 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: centers on the administration of current US President Joe Biden, 543 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: well kind of on him, mainly on his son, Yes 544 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: Hunter Hunter Biden, that you've likely heard a lot about 545 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: over the past few years, He's attained something that many 546 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 1: artists have not, uh, a level of fame, a level 547 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 1: of success that that many can only dream of. He's 548 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: represented by the ultra powerful George bars or b r 549 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: G S Gallery in that's in New York. Been Yes, yeah, 550 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: that's in New York, and uh, he has his works. 551 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: His art is expected to cost anywhere from seventy five 552 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: dollars to five hundred thousand dollars. Again, Hunter Biden, son 553 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: of the current president, right right, and experts, not just 554 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: political opponents, have raised ethical concerns here. They're arguing that 555 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: people might not be paid this much just because they 556 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: like the art. They may be doing this because supporting 557 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: Hunter Biden might establish a line of communication and influence 558 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: with his father, who is currently one of the most 559 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: powerful people on the planet. And in fact, you know, 560 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: I found one prominent critic, Walter Shab, because I wanted 561 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: to make sure that the ethical concerns weren't just like, 562 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 1: you know, politically motivated stuff. So Walter Shab was an 563 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: interesting critic of this to me because back in the 564 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: day he was actually the director of the Office of 565 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: Government Ethics under the Obama administration. So you can you know, 566 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: make uh some assumptions about his own politically means, and 567 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: he said, I find it deeply troubling. We've got a 568 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: family member clearly trading on his father's name. The man 569 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: has never sold a piece of art before, has never 570 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: even juried in a community center art show, but suddenly 571 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: he's selling art at fantastical prices. There's simply no way 572 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,479 Speaker 1: anybody paid seventy five grand for anything other than his name. 573 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: That sounds kind of cold and uh. In his defense, 574 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: Hunter Biden did appear on a couple of outlets. He 575 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: was on an art podcast a while back where he said, 576 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: you know, he was surprised, but he was happy. He said, 577 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: I would you know, be happy if it's sold for 578 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: ten dollars, said painting was away for him to personally 579 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: find soulas, which is something a lot of painters in 580 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: the crowd today can agree with. Uh. Yeah, but in 581 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: the state, you can't argue with the fact that the 582 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: reason it's that expensive is because of who he is. 583 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's that it's that it's that value that's 584 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 1: placed upon the art by the outside right, and when 585 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: he's represented by a powerful dollary, it doesn't hurt. I mean, 586 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: it definitely has to play at least some role in 587 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: the success here, partially because when people are buying a name, 588 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: they're they're also buying a story, right when you buy, 589 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: when you buy art, you're also buying the story of 590 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: the person who made it, the story of how it 591 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: traveled from someone's mind through all these various adventures to you. So, yeah, 592 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: it's not a crime. It's just ethically unsound to a 593 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: lot of critics. And really it's not a crime because 594 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: the legal system doesn't have the vocabulary to articulate this 595 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: as a criminal offense. But that doesn't make it not shady. 596 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: And to be fair, Hunter Biden is currently embroiled in 597 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,959 Speaker 1: other controversies. The U. S. Attorney's Office is digging into 598 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: his taxes. He stated that publicly there were corruption charges 599 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: raised by the former Trump administration during the la selection. 600 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 1: Biden administration dismissed him as a smear campaign. Hunter Biden 601 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: is probably like the thing about Hunter Biden is he 602 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: doesn't need the money, you know what I mean, He's 603 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: not sweating the seventy five grands. Probably. He did join 604 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: the board of a place called Barisma from to twenty nineteen, 605 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: where he was making an estimated fifty grand a month. 606 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: So if he chose art over that, he's he's following 607 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: his passion rather than financial motivation. But there's a whole 608 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: thing with Ukraine there with Undiden, and there's a lot 609 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: of stuff. There's a lot, there's a lot, there's a 610 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: lot with Kraid. Almost I almost texted you and know 611 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: about this. But given the way that Russia has amassing 612 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: troops on the border, I wonder what's going to happen 613 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: around the end of the year. Honestly, dude, there's so 614 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: much posturing going on both sides. I don't know. NATO 615 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: hasn't no first strike thing, and they definitely I don't know. 616 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 1: And and also earlier this July, Vladimir Putin published an 617 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: essay about how they're Ukraine has always been part of Russia. Yeah, 618 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 1: like they're they're of the same stuff, basically, they're spiritually. Yeah, 619 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: So we'll see what goes on there and maybe that's 620 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: an episode for the future. But regardless of what goes 621 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: down with NATO, Russia, Ukraine and crimea, uh and what 622 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: revelations come out about corruption on the western end of 623 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: that that, we do know one thing, No matter what 624 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: wars occur in the future, the problem of money laundering 625 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: is only set to continue to grow to expand. At 626 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: least that's what multiple governments assume. We're gonna pause for 627 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: another word from our sponsors, and then we'll return to 628 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: explore a little bit about how these institutions are at 629 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 1: least saying they're going to fight back. So, as you know, 630 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: Matt and I aren't just podcasters. Matt is a tremendously 631 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: accomplished musician. I write constantly. We're in the world of 632 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: creative things. We're also based on this podcast, excited to 633 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: announce that we're getting into the world of visual creations, 634 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: not with YouTube, but with fart. That's right, Ben and 635 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: I are proud to be sponsored by financial alternatives to 636 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: real transactions or fart. It addresses a problem that I'm 637 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: sure many of us have encountered in our various side hustles. 638 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: Where do I put all this drug money or let's say, 639 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: even bezzled millions from a charity and need to take 640 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: it out of the oven of crime to cool it 641 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: off for a while, and all the usual tax havens 642 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: are closed down. Yeah, Plus those stick in the mud 643 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,919 Speaker 1: tax men are prying into all the empty condos we've 644 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: been by, and casinos. She's casinos mean that some mob 645 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: gets it cut and you get stuck with tons of paperwork. 646 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: That's why we recommend fart up. Until recently, the best 647 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: way for us to move dirty money from things like 648 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: regime change trafficking, badger smuggling, or stamp fraud was to 649 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: buy regular art. We'd send one of our agents to 650 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: a South abys tell them to put a few million 651 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,319 Speaker 1: into something whatever really and boom call it a day. 652 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: But those non criminal, non fat cats in the world 653 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: of law enforcement hate to see a good hustle folks. 654 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: They're cracking down on good old fashioned drifting and it's 655 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: time for all of us to get ahead of the game. 656 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: That is where fart comes in. Instead of physically buying arts, 657 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: all you have to do is pull up the handy 658 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: fart app. Then just enter the amount of money you 659 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: need to move, make up a fun nickname, and make 660 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,399 Speaker 1: sure you never use that nickname again never. You'll get 661 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: an anonymized list of private collections and freeports all across 662 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: the world, tailored to your criminal needs. Click what fits 663 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,919 Speaker 1: your needs best, and fart takes care of the rest. 664 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: You don't have to go pick up the painting. You 665 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 1: don't even have to see it. You can even disable 666 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: the thumbnails if you don't want to be bothered with 667 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,280 Speaker 1: looking past the price tag. No pesky regulation, no nagging, 668 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,800 Speaker 1: and no cries for accountability. Let's say later you need 669 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 1: that cash and maybe you want to make a hefty profit. Now, 670 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: all you need to do is set up price for 671 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: your art wherever it's being stored. When in just a 672 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: few days or hours you'll get an offer. Here's the 673 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 1: fun part, folks, That buyer could be anyone. It could 674 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: even be you under a different name, offering a higher price. 675 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: With FART, you can take the art from the museum 676 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: and turn it into a laundromat, just like the old 677 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: masters Shirley intended. And there's a special limited time offer 678 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: here just for listening to stuff. They don't want you 679 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,800 Speaker 1: to know. The good folks at FART are offering fifteen 680 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: percent off the blood price for your first transaction. All 681 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: you have to do is type in the promo code 682 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,800 Speaker 1: I am a bad person at checkout again for fifteen 683 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 1: percent off blood price. Enter the promo code I am 684 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: a bad person at checkout. The fart app is not 685 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: available on p p P poor people phones. The makers 686 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 1: of fart are not responsible for any prosecution, bad karma, 687 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: dark knights of the soul, well deserved revenge, governmental coups, 688 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: regime changes lead pois need physical seizures. Financial seizures come 689 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: up in Shenanigan re or lack of honor among thieves 690 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:14,879 Speaker 1: as far as a subsidiary of illumination Global Unlimited and 691 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: we returned. Yes, governments are paying more attention to this 692 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: in recent years for a couple of pretty compelling reasons. First, 693 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: business is booming. You know, earlier, Matt, you and I 694 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: were talking about how the pandemic made a drop in 695 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: the overall market. But the big ticket items are selling 696 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: for increasingly higher prices, and this means that in a 697 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: single transaction more money is moving now. It's like an 698 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: illegal portive entry to the land of legitimate cash. No 699 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: need for paperwork, no need for disclosure, and no way 700 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 1: for the law to look into things too closely right 701 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: now at least. And Second, many of the traditional money 702 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: laundring avenues have been compromised or shut down. Think about it. 703 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: The Panama papers a little while back, the Pandora papers, 704 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: people the world, The public is waking up to a 705 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,880 Speaker 1: lot of these traditional ways of just moving that money around, 706 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: real estate, tax havens, all of these things. The places 707 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: where both the incredibly rich and the high level criminals 708 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: where they used to stash all that cash, they've just 709 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,359 Speaker 1: they've fallen out because people know about them, and also 710 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,320 Speaker 1: because there's increased regulation on those things or rules, especially 711 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: if you're doing a transaction from one country to another 712 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: country where that you know, money would have been stored 713 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: or moved or cleansed. It's just not happening right now, 714 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,240 Speaker 1: at least not to the extent that it was. Yeah, 715 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: and so this also means that a certain demographic of 716 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: the world's most successful scoundrels are suddenly discovered a deep 717 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: appreciation for art. Actually the expensive stuff that's cool. You 718 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 1: gotta feature soul. So what is to be done in 719 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,800 Speaker 1: a world where it's generally acknowledged the taxes are already 720 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: for the little people quote unquote, and corruption is i 721 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,720 Speaker 1: would say, a widely accepted open secret. How can government 722 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: institutions hope to fight the almost entirely invisible kaiju of 723 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,479 Speaker 1: global financial crime in the art world? Uh, good news, Matt, 724 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,799 Speaker 1: You and I looked into this. We know that the 725 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 1: US is taking a stab at it with some new 726 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,479 Speaker 1: proposed bills um essentially stuff like the Bank Secretary Act 727 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: b s A and a m L and something called 728 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,719 Speaker 1: the Combating the Financing of Terrorism Laws. The Anti Money 729 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 1: Laundering by the way, yes anti money, yes, thank you, 730 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:40,240 Speaker 1: anti money laundering. The b s A already requires people 731 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: who deal with precious metals, stones and jewels to report 732 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: activities that seems us to the authorities. Like think of like, 733 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, you buy diamonds and you're pretty sure someone's 734 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 1: trying to sell you blood diamonds, you would report that, 735 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: or they're stolen, you would report that. The idea here 736 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: is to expand those report and requirements to art dealers 737 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:07,320 Speaker 1: in the US. Some you know, some shady entity is like, hey, 738 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,719 Speaker 1: I want to sell this to two hundred million dollars 739 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: And you're like, is that wasn't that painting stolen? Well, 740 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,839 Speaker 1: I don't know where I came from, you know what 741 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's in my gallery right now. So the 742 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,759 Speaker 1: idea is, and you know again, gallery owners and art 743 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,799 Speaker 1: buyers and collectors are not not everybody is in on this. 744 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: Everybody not everybody. But now we have to look across 745 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,960 Speaker 1: the pond. We know that the European Union Commission had 746 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,320 Speaker 1: issued an anti money laundering directive in eighteen in June, 747 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: which also expanded the coverage of regulation. So they started 748 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: they started counting people trading in the world of art 749 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: as obliged entities, meaning people who had to report suspicious activities. Uh. 750 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: And they also had to reported if they were storing 751 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 1: art in free ports. If the value of a transaction 752 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,879 Speaker 1: or a group of linked transactions equaled ten thousand euro 753 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: or more, that's that's what they want to happen. Well, 754 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: and they're they're actually taking some of this stuff into effect. 755 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,320 Speaker 1: You can read about it right now. Some of the 756 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: lazes news coming out of the UK has to do 757 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: exactly with this, and that number in particular ten thousand 758 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: euros or more is so low compared to what the 759 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,439 Speaker 1: other regulators and other countries are trying to establish. Most 760 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: of the others, like with the United States and uh 761 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,799 Speaker 1: few other European countries are setting it setting that minimum 762 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,399 Speaker 1: as like you know, it has if it reaches this 763 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,440 Speaker 1: amount of money or more, then it has to be 764 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 1: reported around a hundred thousand dollars US. So this is 765 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 1: like you know, most of the other countries are looking 766 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: at transactions that are ten times the amount that the 767 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,320 Speaker 1: European Union wants to look at. Yeah, and like you said, 768 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: this is something that's still influx in some parts of 769 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 1: the world where in the early days of this kind 770 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,719 Speaker 1: of regulation. In other parts of the world, it's still 771 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: kind of in the idea phase. Can read a pretty 772 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:19,200 Speaker 1: great summation of US laws in various law review outfits, 773 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,719 Speaker 1: and we have to point out, of course, not everybody's 774 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: on board. In the view of some art dealers, the 775 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,720 Speaker 1: legal changes in the US and Europe would strip vendors 776 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,920 Speaker 1: of one of their big selling points, the ability to 777 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: offer anonymity to clients, either on the buying or selling side. 778 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:43,319 Speaker 1: And this anonymity, the desire for anonymity, despite what surveillance 779 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: states would have you assume, does not necessarily make somebody 780 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: a criminal. You might just want to sell one thing, 781 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: and you might be doing it because you actually need 782 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 1: the money and you don't want people to know, or 783 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: you might be doing it because it's just one piece 784 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: of a larger collection and you don't want to get 785 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: bombarded by other people who want to buy other stuff 786 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,759 Speaker 1: in your collection. You know what I mean, Like, privacy 787 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: is a currency all its own, so those parts aren't 788 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:15,200 Speaker 1: necessarily criminals. Uh. And in the years back, right back 789 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: in the day, the fine arts market was often seen 790 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: as a playground for the the wealthy, the indolence well 791 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,759 Speaker 1: to do, the sociolites and so on. There was no 792 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 1: real drive on the part of the authorities to police it, 793 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: to apply laws to it as strenuously as they would 794 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: to something like banking, which they could also use some 795 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,600 Speaker 1: help regulating banking. But whatever, Only time will tell what 796 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,279 Speaker 1: happens to this practice, because for now it's a wild West. 797 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,440 Speaker 1: It's a gold mine baby. Right now, with the appropriate connections, 798 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,880 Speaker 1: you can easily longer money through fine arts. Your odds 799 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,239 Speaker 1: are getting away with it again for right now are 800 00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 1: actually pretty good if you get caught, at least a 801 00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: lot of cases I've seen, if you get caught, you're 802 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,840 Speaker 1: probably getting due to something else you did, the actual 803 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 1: gun running, the actual embezzlement, the trafficking or whatever, and 804 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,680 Speaker 1: then the art as a laundering mechanism only gets discovered 805 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,920 Speaker 1: later in the investigation, Like where they where they busted 806 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: the drug dealer and they were like, Wow, this guy's 807 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: great taste, man. Yeah, that's surprised when you open the 808 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 1: storage unit and you're like, oh my god, there's thirty 809 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: three paintings in here that are all worth you know, 810 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,000 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. Why can't 811 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,840 Speaker 1: this happen with like grim wise books of the occult, 812 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,880 Speaker 1: obscure reference works or comic books that would be cleaning 813 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 1: up my storage unit and you can just find all 814 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: my son's clothes, all of them. It would be kind 815 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:53,000 Speaker 1: of creepy if I didn't know. You what do you 816 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,919 Speaker 1: do with them? There? There's sentimental value, you know, right, 817 00:50:56,040 --> 00:51:00,160 Speaker 1: and kids grow so fast. What's the hey, what's the 818 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,879 Speaker 1: shortest amount of time that a pair of shoes fit 819 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,680 Speaker 1: the kid? The one of the latest ones. We've got 820 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,759 Speaker 1: a minecraft shoes for the beginning of the school year, 821 00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: so August, this past August, and he's completely outgrown them. Now, yeah, 822 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,839 Speaker 1: that's pretty fast, all right. Well, as you know, I'm 823 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:23,440 Speaker 1: a big fan of your kid. Uh. I think he 824 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,919 Speaker 1: almost beat me at ski ball. We'll see, let's see. 825 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,640 Speaker 1: I just got to enjoy my brief time in the 826 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:34,440 Speaker 1: sun anyway. Uh, children's shoes aside things you find in 827 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 1: public storage spaces can always be weird, and that's why 828 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,160 Speaker 1: sometimes they get robbed. But what we're talking about now, 829 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,040 Speaker 1: this money laundering problem is all just the traditional old 830 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 1: school hustle. We have to admit that the rise of 831 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,120 Speaker 1: new art things like non fungible tokens in f t 832 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,880 Speaker 1: s can also produce opportunities for money laundering. In theory, 833 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,319 Speaker 1: and only time will tell what happens with all those 834 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,400 Speaker 1: nifty new technological toys. Assume you bring in the crypto 835 00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,880 Speaker 1: the crypto techniques, right, and you're talking about money laundrying 836 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,760 Speaker 1: like it's a whole new world there. Yeah, yeah, until 837 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:13,120 Speaker 1: people figure out who Nakamoto is, well, like we don't, 838 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 1: we don't know. Uh So for the more cynical folks 839 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,399 Speaker 1: in the crowd, I would say myself included candidly. There's 840 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,800 Speaker 1: also the issue of corruption in the halls of power. 841 00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,920 Speaker 1: A lot of people participating in these conspiracies also have 842 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,680 Speaker 1: influence in the world of business and politics. We are 843 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,960 Speaker 1: talking big fish capital b capital f It can be 844 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,719 Speaker 1: plausibly difficult or even at times dangerous for you know, 845 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,480 Speaker 1: regular authorities to make a fuss. It might even hurt 846 00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,720 Speaker 1: re election chances for some politicians, especially those that depend 847 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:51,200 Speaker 1: heavily on private campaign donations, which can come from those 848 00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,799 Speaker 1: Capital B, Capital F, big fish. Yeah, if you've got 849 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,120 Speaker 1: the money to, you know, hide away in art the 850 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,359 Speaker 1: extent that some of these players do, and you can 851 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,840 Speaker 1: imagine that a campaign donation isn't out of the question, 852 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,800 Speaker 1: especially if it's gonna benefit you personally in some way. Yeah, 853 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,759 Speaker 1: and art as an avenue for money laundering, really money 854 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: laundering itself, as as a kind of art form. These 855 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,520 Speaker 1: aren't things that immediately impact the average person, so there's 856 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,600 Speaker 1: not a ton of on the ground momentum to change 857 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,759 Speaker 1: this dirty status quo. In fact, the majority of the 858 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,319 Speaker 1: stories about this in the media kind of take this 859 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:34,839 Speaker 1: wealthy folks are bad angle, which is honestly misleading. There 860 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: are scads get it Georgia natives of affluent folks who 861 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,759 Speaker 1: legitimately just dig art or certain artists. It's either for 862 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,360 Speaker 1: their own personal enjoyment, maybe it's a social flex to 863 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,439 Speaker 1: talk about at the next fundraiser. And of course there 864 00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:53,319 Speaker 1: are people who rightly see this as a genuine, if 865 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:57,239 Speaker 1: at times wobbly investment. At Matt, as we're at the 866 00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,359 Speaker 1: close of this show, I have to ask you with 867 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,319 Speaker 1: this regular Asian. I know that we've both read up 868 00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,759 Speaker 1: on this. Do you think it will have teeth? Do 869 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,920 Speaker 1: you think it will make a difference? Well, I think 870 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,360 Speaker 1: back to that, to that example we gave of the 871 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,560 Speaker 1: four and fifty something million dollars that was spent on 872 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:17,120 Speaker 1: one painting, and that was done in an auction as 873 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:21,640 Speaker 1: somewhat above board auction, right, that kind of transaction, I 874 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,839 Speaker 1: think it will be easy to enact regulations on when 875 00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,960 Speaker 1: it comes down to the private buying that we outlined 876 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:29,400 Speaker 1: up at the top. I think it's going to be 877 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,200 Speaker 1: extremely hard for any regulator in any country to get 878 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,080 Speaker 1: a firm grasp on those transactions, right because so many 879 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,520 Speaker 1: are pre existing, you know what I mean? And how 880 00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:46,080 Speaker 1: do you list those as assets? Right? Like? Where where 881 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:51,040 Speaker 1: do they enter the legal system? Right? There's a there's 882 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,919 Speaker 1: an app out there, or at least one that's being 883 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 1: developed right now that's supposed to what is it art pass? 884 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,760 Speaker 1: I think something that art pass I d it's supposed 885 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,360 Speaker 1: to allow buyers and sellers of fine art to like 886 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:09,279 Speaker 1: have their identity information to like hand it over when 887 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:13,600 Speaker 1: you're making a transaction basically, but who knows if it's 888 00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,480 Speaker 1: gonna work well, or not. It's a group of Dutch 889 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,120 Speaker 1: tech entrepreneurs who are creating it. You can read about 890 00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,520 Speaker 1: that in the art newspaper um. But there's that kind 891 00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:24,319 Speaker 1: of thing where like tech is trying to come in 892 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,440 Speaker 1: to offer a solution of like, yeah, if dirty money 893 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,200 Speaker 1: is a problem in the art scene, maybe there's a 894 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,400 Speaker 1: way for us to exchange identity information without having to 895 00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: get into regulation. And it's more of like, I don't know, 896 00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,239 Speaker 1: you can do it on the level of the transaction. 897 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,440 Speaker 1: I see kind of like we're that we're going to 898 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:47,560 Speaker 1: regulate ourselves to avoid overreach from institutions. Yeah, yeah, you know, 899 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,520 Speaker 1: all the best to them. But you can easily see folks, 900 00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 1: why so many people would be cynical about this changing 901 00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,520 Speaker 1: just because of the conflicts of interest involved, because of 902 00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,399 Speaker 1: the amount of money involved, and because of the um 903 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,520 Speaker 1: potential for nepotism involved. Well because of the layers, right, 904 00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,200 Speaker 1: there are layers of shell companies that often make these 905 00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:13,360 Speaker 1: actual transactions and representatives of representatives of a group that 906 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,680 Speaker 1: is actually working for the benefactor who's going to own 907 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,239 Speaker 1: that art. Agreed, and so now, fellow conspiracy realists, we 908 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,880 Speaker 1: passed the uh little auction gabbl to you, thunk, What 909 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:29,239 Speaker 1: do you think? Do you have any personal experience with 910 00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,399 Speaker 1: the world of fine art? Are you an artist who 911 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:37,080 Speaker 1: has uh seen some shady stuff go down at galleries? 912 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:42,120 Speaker 1: Are you yourself curator who has been trying to keep 913 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:46,759 Speaker 1: people honest? Uh? Do you find yourself whether you're in 914 00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,320 Speaker 1: this or outside of this? Do you find yourself also 915 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,600 Speaker 1: assuming a cynical perspective here and if so why? We 916 00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,440 Speaker 1: would as always love to hear your thoughts and we 917 00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,520 Speaker 1: try to be easy to find online. Yes, you can 918 00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,640 Speaker 1: locate us on Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube where we are 919 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:08,280 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff. On Instagram we are Conspiracy Stuff Show. Please 920 00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:10,640 Speaker 1: if you like this episode, head on over to Apple 921 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,359 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show and give 922 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,799 Speaker 1: us a review. We'd appreciate it if it was I 923 00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,680 Speaker 1: don't know, five stars or more, but you know, we 924 00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:20,840 Speaker 1: get it. We'd love to just get your feedback. That'd 925 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,800 Speaker 1: be wonderful. Thank you. Please do that. If you don't 926 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,840 Speaker 1: like social media, there are other ways to contact us. Yeah, 927 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,640 Speaker 1: let's say you have a message for Matt or doc 928 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,320 Speaker 1: or Mission Control or the one and only Mr Nel 929 00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,520 Speaker 1: Brown or me. You can call us directly on the 930 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,560 Speaker 1: telephone it's the hottest new uh thing. All you have 931 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 1: to do is dial one eight three three st d 932 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,920 Speaker 1: w y t K. You'll get a message laying you 933 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,760 Speaker 1: know you're in the right place. You get three minutes. 934 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,200 Speaker 1: Those three minutes are yours. Do with them what you will. 935 00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,000 Speaker 1: We ask that you give yourself a cool nickname or moniker, 936 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,280 Speaker 1: because it always makes our day to hear them, and 937 00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,040 Speaker 1: let us know if we can use your name and 938 00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,440 Speaker 1: or message on the air. Most importantly, don't feel like 939 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,760 Speaker 1: you have to censor yourself. If you have a story 940 00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,160 Speaker 1: that needs more than three minutes time, then write it 941 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,640 Speaker 1: all out attached those links, send us those pictures. We 942 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,080 Speaker 1: read every single letter we get. We can't wait to 943 00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,120 Speaker 1: hear from you. All you have to do is drop 944 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 1: us a line on the internet where we are conspiracy 945 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:47,120 Speaker 1: at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want 946 00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:49,480 Speaker 1: you to know is a production of I heart Radio. 947 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 948 00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:55,040 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 949 00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:55,880 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.