WEBVTT - The Hardest Question Christians Face | Greg Koukle 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:02.640 So you were just a single solo guy. As a 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.559 solo guy, yeah, okay, how long are you in the 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:07.160 industry performing and recording? 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:09.640 My first album was nineteen ninety nine, so. 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:11.719 Oh my goodness, that's kind of a lot. And you 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:12.559 left what year? 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.760 My final tour was twenty twenty three. August of twenty 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:18.279 twenty three. 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.440 Okay, see, I like five years on the road and recording. 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.560 And did you become a Christian after that? I mean, 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:27.560 I mean, well, in the midst of all that you 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:29.160 want a Christian when you started touring. 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.479 I thought I was. I was a cultural Christian. I 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:33.240 always thought, you know, grew up in a Christian home. 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.480 I'm from the Bible Belt, so always could have articulated 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:38.120 the Gospel and told you that I was a believer. 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:41.839 But it wasn't until later in my life when the 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:47.000 Lord radically converted me through tragedy, which which does happen 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.080 quite a bit. Tragedy and suffering will test of faith 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.680 and you can see the genuineness of that faith through 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.360 that suffering, and I didn't have any That's what I discovered. 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.120 And so when I became a Christian and then and 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.560 really started reading the Bible for the first time, and 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:06.840 not just as a devotional or as like an instruction 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.200 manual for my life, but actually unfolding the narrative of 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.280 God's people and what he has done, and who he 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:15.800 is and who we are in relation to who he is. 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.160 I started seeing some inconsistencies in my life, and part 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.760 of that was I'm a singer exalting myself every day, 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.240 and I don't know how that's reconciling with taking up 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:26.040 my cross. 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.280 Yeah yeah, well I think it. You can be a 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:33.880 performer and do a good job, but the mentality and 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.679 attitude is really hard to manage, you know. I mean, 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:38.720 this is something that people in my business have to 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.640 deal with. So trying to get better known and people 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:47.080 come up to you, and they even even Amy yesterday, 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:49.800 Amy Hall. So you know who Amy Hall is. 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:51.320 I don't think so. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:54.600 Oh okay, So I'm not sure how fully you are 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.920 with Standard Reason. But we have two podcasts. We have 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.120 two hours a week to hours a week where I 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.320 do the podcast and we have two other separate twenty 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:09.600 five minute segments where Amy Hall on our team takes 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:11.760 questions that gets sent in and she asked me the questions, 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.320 I respond and then she adds brilliance to it. So 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:19.560 that's Amy. So Amy's got a cult following too, as 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.320 it turns out, of big fans that she's not even 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.360 aware of because she doesn't get out much. It's just 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.520 she does the radio stuff. But when she does show 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.400 up at events, people flock to her. Oh Amy kind 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.359 of thing. But anyway, Amy said, and our star Greg 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:36.520 cochol I said, Amy, don't even talk like that. I 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:38.480 said that out of the air because I don't want 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:42.120 people to I don't want to think of my stuff 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:43.680 like that. I don't want people to think of myself. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:45.639 I'm just hey, I'm here as a brother in the Lord. 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:47.920 I'm offering something that may be useful, and you should 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:49.720 be doing the same kind of thing with other people 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:51.680 in your life. Okay, this is just what I do. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.520 So we have to. I think all of us have 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.000 to be vigilant. So I think it's possible to be 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:04.600 really effective in the say, in the music business, but 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:09.040 it is very hard because so many people are genuflecting 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.119 to you, bowing down to you, saying all of these 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.800 wonderful things that may be true about your craft, but 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.960 people take them way too seriously. So I just saw 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.520 just a couple of days ago. Actually, on the way back. 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:23.120 I don't know how much time you have here, so 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:24.320 I want to be sensitive to that. 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:26.560 But go ahead, and I'm here to here. I'm here 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:27.160 to listen to you. 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:30.800 We're just kind of getting warmed up a little bit. 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:32.440 I don't even know what we're going to talk about today. 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.720 I'll follow you wherever you want to go. It's all right, 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.760 it's your show. And I've heard here to help that out. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:42.520 But but I watched a Complete Unknown on the flight 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:46.640 back from Dallas from uh from Nashville on Sunday night, 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.760 and that's about a Bob Dylan. 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:51.000 Right. 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:52.360 Have you seen this? 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.080 I have not seen it. I've heard about Okay, I. 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.400 Really enjoyed it. But I experienced this film on a 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:00.800 number of levels. Now, I was born in nineteen fifty 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.200 and so this is sixty to sixty five of Bob Dylan. 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.960 I'm very familiar with that time. That's when they had 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:09.920 the Cuban missile crisis in sixty two, that's when John 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.640 Kennedy was assassinated in sixty three, and they're showing this 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.240 new stuff in the background with Walter Cronkite Man. I 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.520 have a vivid memory of all of that stuff. And 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.719 I also have a memory of the burgeoning countercultural movement 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.919 that Bob Dylan was a significant part of. And so 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:27.680 it's very interesting to see. I don't know if you 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.359 follow his career at all, but it's really an amazing career. 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.280 And it may be that he's a Christian testimony now, 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:35.960 but he sure wasn't then he was a nobody. They 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:40.160 followed from when he's a nobody to when he's Probably 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.359 the argue with sixty five. Now this says the Beatles 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.600 had just just kind of began to penetrate a little 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.920 bit in sixty, say, sixty three and sixty four the 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:54.880 American population, and so they were big. But the It's 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.080 one didn't deal with any of that stuff. It dealt 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.719 with this burgeoning folk music kind of thing that he 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:04.040 was a part of, and he was like an unbelievable 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.560 superstar by sixty five starts at sixty sixty. But you 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.760 could see the corruption. Well, I want to be careful 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:12.640 wh I say this. There was it certainly had a 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:17.599 corruptic influence on his life, but he was already corrupted. 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:22.280 He was not a virtuous man. He was utterly selfish, 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.920 and self centered and self consumed. He did not care 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.880 about anyone's feelings about anything. All he cared about was himself. 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:36.640 So I don't know if that's actually accurate characterization, but 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.800 this is a biopic that's done about the guy who's 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:40.479 still alive. 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.160 Yeah, I should say something about that. 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:49.240 Yeah, it seems too he's in a place to say 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.239 that's not true about me or whatever, that didn't happen 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.400 that way or whatever. But anyway, those. 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:58.200 Are good characteristics to be a good popular singer. To 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.040 care only about yourself because you are the product. 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:07.520 See I wonder though if that's necessary. You know, it's 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:16.560 it's one thing too. I understand that you are the product, okay, 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.400 but how you how you characterize yourself as the product? 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.119 You can look at the proverb says, let another praise 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:27.160 you and not your own self. Okay, so don't praise yourself, 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.440 but let other people pray. Use as appropriate. But that 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:32.160 doesn't mean you let it go to your head. And 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:33.840 now I'm not going to talk to people who are 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:36.160 beneath me. I'm gonna babb a boh this. Then there 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.279 are people in the business. I don't know about your business, 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:45.159 But who is the guy here, I'm trying to download names. 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:46.360 That's okay. 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:48.960 Well, I know Kirk Camera for example. He just lives 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:50.919 down the road and we get together from now and 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.479 we've known each other a long time. Kirk is a 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:58.760 true blue, absolutely down to earth, totally humble guy. But 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.760 he's you know, he's got he's got a great CV 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:05.760 in terms of his contribution. Now, people haven't noticed him 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.920 much lately. He does faith films and stuff like that. 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:14.240 But then who's the other guy who is the great? Well, 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.160 I can say is like the kung fu guy with 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.040 the beard, and he had a TV show for a while. 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:22.120 He's very very accomplished martial arts guy. When martial arts 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:24.480 he made a movie with Bruce Lee and stuff like that. 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:27.920 I'm trying to think of his name. He's an older 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:32.800 guy now, Zackie. No, no, no, this is a white guy. 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.080 So if I said a debut, do it. But I 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.960 saw him in the airport once, okay, and I didn't 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.000 talk to him, but some kids came up to him. 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:46.280 They recognized it because he had a TV show and uh, oh, okay, 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:51.320 remember say but he is oh, he was great, you know, 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.320 no airs about him at all. He was just down 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.760 to earth kind of person. And so here's a guy 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.080 with a lot of fame, and yet he was a 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:04.040 very easygoing kind of person, very ordinary and very approachable. 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.800 There are people like that in the industry and they 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:08.480 don't let it go to their heads. So I think 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.360 it's possible to do that a certain field, certainly, but 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:12.239 it's hard. 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:16.120 So Kirk Kirk and I have actually had this conversation, 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:20.680 this very conversation, and he has he'll readily admit that 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:23.400 it's dangerous for him. 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:24.040 Yeah. 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.480 So, so we need to surround ourselves with people that 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.480 can buffer that protect us, give us some level of 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.480 protection by not just becoming yes men, uh, but but 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:38.080 men that are that could be around us and not 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.120 afraid to say I think you're wrong on that, buddy, Yeah. 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:41.439 I don't think. 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.560 I don't think you're you're you're good here and and 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.000 and so Kirk it has told me that over the 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.280 years he's he has struggled because when people do praise you, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:50.400 it's it's a little. 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:51.880 Bit of poison to you. Yeah. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.760 Yeah, you just got to be careful of it and mindful. 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:55.360 Right. 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:59.280 So, I mean, Jesus, Jesus, people praise Jesus a lot too. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.400 At least for the first staff of his ministry, you know. 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.920 But you know it's it's just got built in liabilities 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.000 and we have to be careful of and frankly, from 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.920 what I understand about the CCM industry, you know, most 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.480 people have not fared well in the midst of that. 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:20.080 You know, that's right, do you know Alisa Childers? Yes, yeah, okay, 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:22.240 so I mean she says that is such a corrupt 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.600 industry on the Christian side, the CCM sign. 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.000 I know, we had an artist, a famous artists here 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.760 just the other day. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, And I 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.520 do say I usually need to add this to my 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.440 story that it wasn't only the me to feel the 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:39.360 need to back away from the industry because of some 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:39.880 kind of. 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:46.959 Feeling of self exaltation. There was also, to. 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.280 The Lord's credit, he was reducing a passion that I 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.120 had for it and raising it in other areas. 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.760 Yeah that's great, that's really great. Well it made it easier, huh, 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:58.960 that's right. People have to make the hard choice. I 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.640 think Kirk might have an example. I mean, this guy 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.120 was at the was I mean, he's one of the 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:07.280 I don't know what they call him now, but like 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.400 he was one of those boy charmer types. You know, 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.760 he was on the face of the teen idol magazines 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:18.719 and whatever. But you know, I don't know they ever 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.760 lost his passion for what he was doing. But the 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:23.319 Lord got a wholettle bit of a good way. Is 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.640 his sister's still working a lot. You know, I don't 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.120 know how that's working out for her, but but the 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.280 I'm glad to hear that you have somebody like Kirk 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.000 because I'm sure sure you'd agree with me. He's a 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.720 true blue. This guy is just fabulous, you know he is. 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.120 He for like for many years. On my birthday, get 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.320 a note from him just saying, Hey, I'm just I'm 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.000 just a guy, you know down the street. You know, 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.400 I got some things I do and he appreciates that. 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:50.760 But it wasn't like I was, you know, he's kissing 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.400 up to me or anything. But he was just encouraging me. 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:54.360 So it was really sweet. 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:55.160 That's wonderful. 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.360 Well you're I'm not I'm not sure if it was 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.640 your secretary or who who we reached out to to 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:02.360 set this up. 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.800 Darcy. Darcy, Yeah, we don't have secretary, okay. Colleagues and co. 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:12.800 Workers, Colleagues and co workers, Darcy said respectfully. Darcy said, 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.800 may I ask why you would like to speak with 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.280 Greg in this podcast? And I think that was a 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.840 great question, and I think part of it, there's evidence 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:23.960 in what we've talked about so far that that was 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:24.960 a valid question. 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:30.400 So maybe I should tell you how I know you? Okay, yeah, 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:31.079 I was. 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.199 I was in a couple of years ago in a 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:37.839 seminary class and doctor Timothy Booker do you know you know, 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:38.640 I don't know him. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:45.280 It's southern. Oh yeah, in Louisville, Yes, in Louisville, Louisville, 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:46.920 and so mixed up. 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:51.800 This was a personal evangelism class. We get assigned, you know, 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.920 the pile of books, as as every class assigns, and 0:11:55.960 --> 0:12:00.720 then there's there was this one in that pile and 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.920 I started going through this and I just became so 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:09.360 fascinated by you in your ministry. And like I said, 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.640 this was a couple of years ago, so perhaps I'm 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.680 late on this interview. But as we started putting together 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.000 a list of who I would like to talk to, 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.680 I just thought if I could talk to Greg Cochle, 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.439 that would be fantastic. And I don't really care if 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.120 we release it or not. I would just like to 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:24.920 have a conversation. 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.360 And I'm easy, you know, I'm not like it's just 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:32.280 schedule concerns, that's all. But I'm you know, I talked 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:36.120 to lots of folk. Actually, there's a gal all right 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.800 in Nashville. You might know her dad. Her name is 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.120 Ava Cook, I think Abra Cochrane, and her dad is 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.720 named dot Dan and he's a young guy. Yeah do 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:49.280 you know that name? 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:49.760 Yeah? I do. 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:54.680 Oh, okay, Well she's like, well when she interviewed me, 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:59.240 she was probably fourteen. She was fourteen years old. She's 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.120 got her own podcas us and everything. You know, she's 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:05.160 probably seventeen now. But my view was, all right, if 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.079 I can have an impact through her or even if 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:08.280 it's a small audience, I'm. 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:08.760 Happy for that. 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.480 Plus I wanted to I wanted to encourage her as 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.760 as a person who's doing something unique. And you know 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.160 how many fourteen year olds do that kind of thing. 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.840 There's a few, but not many, and so so that's 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.959 I mean, that's my general view is, like, like I said, 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:27.560 I'm not hard to get. I'm glad to be here 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.000 with you. And as long as the schedule stuff works 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.040 out for me, you know, and I can make a contribution, 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:33.840 be an encouragement to you. Look at the way I 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.920 look at it, Granger, If if we if we never 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:42.400 do the podcast after our conversation here, my trust is 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.319 that God is going to will have made a contribution 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.920 in your life that's that's useful and will be durable. 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.560 I mean, And that's what time I'll spend this for us. 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:52.719 If that's all we get out of. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.640 This, and then well, what really the way if you 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.800 could imagine there's a lot of country music people that 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.280 kind of have bled over into this and to this 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.560 program now, and so I find a unique opportunity now 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:10.000 to collect things like your book Tactics, to collect people 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.920 like Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort and Frank Turk, and 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.840 collect these guys and put them on a on a 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.400 platform of people, perhaps even a younger generation that goes 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.760 I don't know Ray Comfort, I don't know Frank Turk 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:23.800 or Greg Cochele. 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:25.160 Who are they? 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.360 And so then I say, well, let me provide a 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.720 special window into something that I've loved for a long time, 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.320 and let me have some some discussions that that might 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:36.760 open up a door to someone else. 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:38.800 As you said that the Lord could use. 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.880 When did you first realize that you had a gifting 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:45.040 in apologetics? 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.520 Do you want to start rolling and this will be 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:48.920 part of the interview or. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:50.280 Would you be would you be mad at me if 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:51.600 I told you we've been rolling since we. 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.920 Started talk all, you can use whatever you want, so 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:59.440 and edit if you want. I mean, there's nothing I've 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.600 said that you know it's discreditable. Anyway, I was going 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:09.280 to ask you that the end, okay, when the warning 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.480 would have been good at the beginning, because sometimes I'm 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.800 a bit earthy, Let's put it that way. The way 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.960 the question was when did I when. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.440 Did you realize you had a gifting and apologetics in 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:23.600 Christian apologetics? 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.600 Well, actually, I would not look at it that way. Wait, Grader, 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:31.040 I began developing an interest in it very early on. 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.840 And because now I'm almost fifty two years in christ 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:38.560 even though I became a Christian as a young adult 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.960 in nineteen seventy three, so it was twenty three years old, 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.920 I realized, well, first of all, I did not become 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:54.400 a Christian in this influence in the same way like 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.440 some of my colleagues. So you got a least trouble 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.800 for example, Well, apologetics were a huge factory and is 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.560 coming to Christ. You mentioned Frank. I think that might 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.160 have been the case with Frank Turick as well, and 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.520 a lot of people who do what I do. They 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.920 had apologetics as a launching pad for their own convictions 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.200 about Christ, and so it was natural for them to 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.240 keep going. That is not the case for me. All 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:22.720 I can say is the I mean, it's very unglamorous, 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:26.600 but I just came to a realization over time that 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.720 Christianity was true. So I guess, you know, this is 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.560 the Holy Spirit obviously has to work in everybody. But 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.240 this is just the way it happened. And my younger 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.000 brother Mark had been the one who is sharing Christ 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.080 more with me. I had run into a lot of 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.440 Christians prior to that time. You know, I went to 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.360 Michigan State University for a few years seventy to seventy two. 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:49.520 You know, spring break, you want to get out of 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.160 the gloam of Michigan and so down you go to 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.720 Fort Lauderdale or Daytona Beech or whatever and have fun. 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.360 And there's always these annoying Christians that are trying to 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.520 spoil your right and they're you know, talking about this 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.119 and so I was willing to engage them because I 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.720 thought they were nuts. I was raised Roman Catholic, but 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.040 by the time I was eighteen, I was done with that. 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.760 You know, I had no conviction was actually true. And 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.480 when I realized it was wasn't true. Why should I 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.200 believe that? I'm off? And I thought, by the way, 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.400 that I had tried Christianity, Oh yeah, been there, done that, 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:28.520 But I hadn't obviously, and at least my own experience 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.400 with Catholicism, which by the way, was pre Vatican two, 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:37.639 so our advances were still Latin, and Vatican two moved 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.160 Catholicism in a whole different direction that I don't think 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.600 has been good. That's another discussion. But I'm not making 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:47.480 a sweeping statement about Catholics and their convictions. I'm just saying, 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.119 in my case, I blew this off. I don't want that, Ben, 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.160 They're done that. And I was embracing the world. And 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.440 this was nineteen sixty eight, was when I graduate high school. 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.080 I'm telling you that there was the Beatles, there was 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.360 the Rolling Stones, there was the anti war movement, there 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.560 was free love. There was everything exploding on the scene, 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.520 which was absolutely fascinating to a young man like myself 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.399 who had just kind of thrown off the shackles of 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:15.040 religion and I'm embracing a whole the world in a 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.439 new way. And this is one of the things that 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:21.600 really touched me by watching this biopic on Bill Bobby Dylan, 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:27.040 because as we're trafficking through sixty to sixty five, the 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:31.359 period of that film, I'm listening to all this music 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:35.320 that was not only familiar to me, but the words mattered, 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.800 you know, the words mattered, you know, like a rolling stone, 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:44.440 you know, with no direction home, you know, a complete unknown. 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.040 Well that when you read all the lyrics of that song, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.000 he was kind of saying, this is a dismal life. 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.240 But for me, that line just stood out. I didn't 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:53.720 wasn't paying attention to everything. You just picked that. Yeah 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.159 that's me, man, I'm a rolling stone. I got no direction, 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.120 nobody's telling me what to do. I'm not going home. 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.399 I had a bad relation with my dad. I'm gone 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.880 and that was very liberating. And so when I'm listening 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.840 to this, I was getting very emotional watching the movie. 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.159 I did actually a number of times, but part of 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.359 it was this identification with this period where I was 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:17.000 going through this stuff. So that was a big deal, 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.520 and it wasn't until years later, So that was sixty eight. 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.879 By the time nineteen seventy three, my younger brother had 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:26.680 become a Christian and he was talking to me more 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.840 about Jesus. Now that's a more personal relationship, and I 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:31.800 kind of shined him on. He was more of the job. 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:33.720 We were all in athletics, but he was the real 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.879 accomplished jock, you know. And I thought, Okay, he needs that. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.280 I don't. I was the only child of five that 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.600 went to university and I was an honors college at 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.719 Missigan State. Blah blah blah. I'm too smart for that, 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.119 that was my thinking. Yeah, but we were both in 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:55.040 southern California in nineteen seventy three for different reasons. But 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:57.760 he really honed in on me, And all I can 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.840 say is that I just got warned out by the 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:06.399 message that he was offering with no apologetics. He really 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.639 loved me, he was He told me, wants Greg the 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.640 things that I'm telling you are true. One day you're 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:13.639 going to find this out. I hope that when you do, 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:18.600 it's not too late. Notice that was a very straightforward, 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.600 honest statement, and the kind of statement. A lot of 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.439 people aren't willing to say nowadays because they kind of 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.040 gussie all this up and with God being, oh, he 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.880 loves you, You're wonderful, blah blah blah. You know, it's, 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.800 by the way, just a point of information. There's fourteen 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.560 times the Gospel is preached in the Book of Acts, 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.080 and not a single time is the love of God mentioned. 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.080 These were the people who were trained by Jesus. By 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.760 the way, their message is different. You want to know 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.239 what the message is than all your viewers whatever, can 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:52.880 go back and check it out. But that's what I did. 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.119 I isolated all these passages. I wanted to see what 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:55.720 the message was. 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:57.520 And by the way, I say these things, and you know, 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.520 people get mad, but I'm letting you say it is great. 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:01.520 Okay. 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:04.600 You give me a lot of latitude, you give me 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:05.719 a rope to hang myself. 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:06.399 No, that's okay. 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.800 I mean to get now quickly to the to the point. 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.040 After I became a Christian, I didn't have any of 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.320 this stuff, and I had all kinds of questions that 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.399 still need to answer. I was still pro abortion, a 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.840 still pro evolution in the Darwinian sense. I was still 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.760 let's see, you know, pre metal sex, I didn't work 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.200 that thing out, you know all, and there were a 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.920 lot of stuff that but I was convinced that Jesus 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.000 was the Savior and the grace of God was real, 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.640 and I was now a recipient of the grace of God, 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.480 and that changed everything, and so the other things. My 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.639 statement is that you know, God catches this fish first 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.640 and then he cleans them, you know, And I think 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:53.600 that's an actually theologically accurate way of looking at it. 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.080 And it was afterwards. I still had my own questions, 0:21:57.119 --> 0:21:59.760 and I'm in I mean U c l A. And 0:21:59.880 --> 0:22:02.080 I've got people on the streets of Westwood Village and 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.720 there are all kinds of religious trips being peddled at 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:08.479 that time, and I want to tell them about Jesus, 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.480 and I have nothing to say in response to all 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.359 of the challenges they offer me. So very quickly I 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:16.680 got involved in a Christian community that I moved into 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.280 four months after I became a Christian, maybe five and 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.720 February first of seventy four. And I stayed there for 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:26.439 two and a half years, and I got lots of 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:29.760 training and teaching from guys that had been with the 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:35.200 campus crusade for many years, and they all got mad 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:37.480 at Dick da I'm sorry at Bill Bright at the 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:40.360 same time, and they left and they started this Christian community. 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:42.480 I mentioned the name Dick Day. He was one of 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.960 the teachers there, and he had disciple Josh mcdell, and 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:50.080 they all had DTS education Dallas Theological Seminary. So I 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:54.440 kind of fell into this incredible environment where I had 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:58.560 Christian community, lots of Christians around me, we all Jesus freaks, 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:03.600 and nevertheless, we had people with street experience and evangelism 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.119 and good solid theology that were there teaching us and 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:10.560 training us on a regular basis in that school. And 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:13.480 it was called the Jesus Christ Light and Powerhouse. Sounds 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:15.640 kind of corny, but it was great. How I set 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:18.280 a trajectory for my life. Anyway, I've taken up too 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.600 much time. Granger with that along answer. 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:24.040 I asked you to talk here. People are used to 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:28.600 hearing me talk. This is wonderful. Yeah, So what I'm hearing. 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:30.720 Part of what I'm hearing in this is that you 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:33.360 took the time, as Paul did, as the apostle Paul did, 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:38.840 to get educated, to be bored into before you came 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:40.760 out and were and were shaking up the world with 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:41.960 books like Taxis. 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:48.040 Yeah that that first came out in two thousand and nine. 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:48.760 Yeah. 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:51.960 Long, So what was I that's seventy three, eighty three, 0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:58.080 ninety three, two thousand and three, that I was thirty 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:01.679 thirty five years old Christ before I wrote that book, 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:09.800 thirty five years of speaking on university campuses and doing radio. Well, 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.480 I hadn't been doing radio only ten years at that point, 0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:16.879 no more like twenty years. In any event, there was 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:20.840 lots of time that I had logged, and all of 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.879 the things that are in that book Tactics were things 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:28.240 that developed. It crystallized in my mind over time. I 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:30.199 began doing this and that and the other thing, and 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:32.040 oh wait that doesn't work well, how about this? And 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:36.520 reflecting on these things. And I was also I already 0:24:36.560 --> 0:24:41.439 had a master's de gaate apologetics. I was ten, like 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:45.119 two thousand and nine, I was like fifteen years actually, 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:49.800 I completed my master's degree in philosophy under JP Moorland. 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:52.919 And so I had a lot of different stuff that 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:55.439 I'd been building up. Kind of being a student of 0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:58.080 my craft is the way I usually put it. That 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:00.680 then all kind of came together in this book in 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:03.080 two thousand and nine, and then I expanded on it 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:07.080 thirty five percent in the ten year anniversary edition, which 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:09.720 is the one you flashed right, Yeah, got the red 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:10.440 thing at the top. 0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:11.440 Yeah, that's right. 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:16.000 So you had many tools in your barn or your toolkit, 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:19.199 and many teachers too great and many teachers are so important. 0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:21.440 Yeah, that were so helpful. I drew from lots of 0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:26.240 different people that were either mentors of mine close by 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:27.680 or mentors at a distance. 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:30.760 That's one. Yeah, wonderful. 0:25:31.040 --> 0:25:34.040 And when was it that you developed this idea of 0:25:34.119 --> 0:25:37.000 the I don't know how you say it, the impossible question, 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:42.800 the unanswerable question, and that is, oh are you telling. 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:43.640 Me the one that's online? 0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:46.439 If I don't believe the way you believe, Yeah, then 0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:47.480 I'm going to help. 0:25:47.920 --> 0:25:50.200 Well, you know, that was put to me by d 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:53.680 Pak Chilpra, who is probably the most well known New 0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:55.800 Age guru in the world. I mean, he's one of 0:25:55.800 --> 0:25:57.960 the few people who are recognized by his first name 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:02.639 only Dpak, you know. And I think that interview happened 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:07.280 in like two thousand, Well it's before the book came out, 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:10.760 maybe two thousand and eight, because Les Strobel, who sponsored 0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:15.520 that event, then wanted to write the introduction to to Tactics, 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:18.520 and that's when he hit me with that question, and 0:26:18.560 --> 0:26:22.680 so I use that kind of as a foil his statement. 0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:25.480 But of course it's come up before and when people 0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:30.359 it's like, it's the way they ask the question. If 0:26:30.400 --> 0:26:32.880 I don't believe just like you do, then you're saying 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:36.960 I'm going to hell. Well, it's a very manipulative way 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:39.919 to ask the question because it makes it sound like 0:26:40.000 --> 0:26:44.080 you're so egotistical. People have to believe just like you 0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:47.400 or they're going to be punished, and you're happy they're 0:26:47.400 --> 0:26:49.919 going to be punished because they're not agreeing with you. 0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:53.119 And so this is a question that has to be 0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:56.560 handled carefully. And I have been asked versions of that 0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:58.520 in a number of different ways. And in that little 0:26:58.600 --> 0:27:01.880 clip that you are making reference to that standard reason 0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:06.760 is put online, I explain the best way around that. 0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:09.280 I can't remember all the details of what I said 0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:11.920 way back when when that was up there, but it's 0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:16.879 basically the way I approach it. Actually a dpak what 0:27:17.000 --> 0:27:21.359 I said to him, because now we're on TV okay, 0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:23.720 and you've got to really manage your time, well, in 0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:27.520 a situation like that, and I deflected it. In his case, 0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:30.760 he asked the question, but I deflected it. I said, no, 0:27:30.800 --> 0:27:33.640 that's not what I'm saying, because I wasn't saying. If 0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:39.080 everybody believes doesn't believe, just like I believe, you know what, 0:27:39.200 --> 0:27:41.720 that covers a lot of ground. Right, They're going to hell, 0:27:42.359 --> 0:27:45.320 all right, Nobody goes to hell, even if you just 0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:48.600 isolated to the issue of Jesus. Nobody goes to hell 0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:51.560 because I don't believe in Jesus, not a single person. 0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:57.679 The criterion for judgment is right there in Revelation twenty. 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:01.760 The books are open and everyone is judged according to 0:28:01.800 --> 0:28:06.600 their deeds. They're not judged as to whether Jesus saved 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:10.040 them or not. So Jesus is the doctor. He's not 0:28:10.200 --> 0:28:13.920 the disease. He's not the thing that kills people. Okay, 0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:16.719 it's kind of like some you look at a tombstone 0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:21.879 that says cause of death, stupidity. He didn't go to 0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:25.120 the doctor. You know, well, the doctor might have saved him, 0:28:25.119 --> 0:28:28.080 but the doctor didn't kill him. Right, it's the disease 0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:30.200 that killed him or not going to the doctor didn't 0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:32.640 kill him. And in the same way. The point here 0:28:32.800 --> 0:28:36.880 is is that everyone, let me look at I'll put 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:38.200 it this way if I have a second in this 0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:40.560 because I was asked this question by Dennis Prager, who 0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:42.560 maybe a lot of your listeners know, and I'm known 0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:48.520 for forty years. And he had me in a Q 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:51.680 and a session. He's Jewish, and he had me in 0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:54.520 a Q and a session with probably three or four 0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:58.720 hundred Jews, and he asked me the question is we talk? 0:28:58.800 --> 0:29:00.760 He knew my answer, but he's trying to be a 0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:04.400 foil for the conversation with the Jewish audience. He said, 0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:07.440 ask me if Jesus is the only way of salvation 0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:10.000 and believing in him. Well, here's all these Jews that 0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:12.520 don't believe in Jesus. So and I told him this. 0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:14.960 So they just said, yes, you get the wrong impression. 0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:17.840 It'll sound anti Semitic, which, by the way, when people 0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:20.760 ask this question, it's meant to make the Christian look foolish. 0:29:20.920 --> 0:29:21.920 Yes, okay. 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:25.480 And so what I said is, so let me explain it. 0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:30.000 I said, people think that, you know, God looks down 0:29:30.320 --> 0:29:34.960 on the world and sees all these religious clubs, and 0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:37.000 he plays favorites. I mean, this is the way it 0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:41.640 sounds to some people who are exclusivistic. He plays favorites, 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:44.040 and for a long time the Jews were his favorites. 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:46.320 Then he got really mad at the Jews. Now the 0:29:46.400 --> 0:29:49.680 Christians are his favorites, and to hell with everyone else. Yeah, 0:29:49.920 --> 0:29:52.200 kind of quite literally, I said, that's not the way 0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:55.120 it happens. God is not looking at religious clubs. He's 0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:58.520 looking at a world of human beings that he longs 0:29:58.520 --> 0:29:59.640 to be in relationship with. 0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:00.440 The is. 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:03.280 They've rebelled against him, every single one. Yes, now this 0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:07.800 is a problem. Now they're guilty for rebelling against the 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:13.280 sovereign of the universe. They've broken his laws countless times 0:30:13.600 --> 0:30:18.680 every day. So now what So he offers a pardon 0:30:19.520 --> 0:30:22.200 if you take the pardon on the grounds that he 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:27.880 offers it Jesus who paid the penalty in our place 0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:30.840 and a Jewish audience, they said, much like you would 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:37.200 sacrifice bulls and goats to cover the sin of the people, 0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:40.680 in the same way, Jesus now covers the sin of 0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:43.480 those who put their confidence in him. Now, if you 0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:47.000 don't do that, all right, you're on your own. You 0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:50.600 stand in the docket, and you have to give an 0:30:50.600 --> 0:30:53.080 accounting for your life such as it is, and you 0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:56.040 will be punished for all the crimes that you committed 0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:58.960 against God. By the way, that won't be a pretty picture. 0:30:58.960 --> 0:30:59.280 I won't. 0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:01.800 And the good things you do that doesn't work. You 0:31:01.840 --> 0:31:04.760 can't balance those out. For one, they won't balance out. 0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:08.600 You're always going to lose on that assessment, and secondly 0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:15.400 on God's criteria of sin all right. And secondly, even 0:31:16.320 --> 0:31:20.120 even in our Jewish jurisprudence system here, you can't just 0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:25.000 you know, keep all the laws and be really good citizen. 0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:27.640 And the DA gives sins. And anoying said, hey, you 0:31:27.640 --> 0:31:29.880 haven't broken any laws. Why don't you knock off a 0:31:29.920 --> 0:31:32.800 few gas stations on us because you've got credit in 0:31:32.840 --> 0:31:33.400 your account. 0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:33.640 You know. 0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:37.080 Now the law requires to keep them all, and you 0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:39.040 keep mall except for one, then you're guilty. 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:39.560 Yeah. 0:31:39.720 --> 0:31:41.920 No, I mean that's the way law works. So that's 0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:44.000 not going to help. And I said, so here's the 0:31:44.040 --> 0:31:52.320 simple calculus. Either Jesus pays or you pay. Either Jesus 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:54.760 pays or you pay. So it's up to you. Forget 0:31:54.760 --> 0:31:58.160 about Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and all that other stuff. We 0:31:58.200 --> 0:32:01.120 all know we're broken. We all know we're guilty, and 0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:04.960 you guys all know there's God who is just and 0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:09.080 will have justice upon those who deserve it. This is 0:32:09.120 --> 0:32:09.960 not good news. 0:32:10.200 --> 0:32:11.440 If you need to get a hold of me for 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:15.520 any reason, go to cameo dot com slash Granger Smith. 0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:19.080 In fact, I just literally got a message from Cameo 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:22.200 that says a guy named Ian now has a request 0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:23.720 for me. So what I do is I open this 0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:25.840 up and I go check out what Ian wants me 0:32:25.920 --> 0:32:28.800 to say for him, and for this it is a 0:32:28.840 --> 0:32:32.480 happy birthday to Melinda. So I will reach out to Melinda. 0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:34.520 I say happy birthday. It's Granger Smith here. I hope 0:32:34.520 --> 0:32:36.680 you have an amazing day. And I'm gonna tell her 0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:38.800 what else that I have here on the little list 0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:40.760 that Ian has given me. And then I send it 0:32:40.760 --> 0:32:42.800 back to him and then he has a video message 0:32:42.800 --> 0:32:46.920 from me that then goes out to Melinda. It's really cool, 0:32:46.920 --> 0:32:49.320 it's super easy. I've been doing this for about six 0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:51.600 years now. So if you want to find me and 0:32:51.640 --> 0:32:53.840 get a special video message of any kind, go to 0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:56.080 a cameo dot com slash Granger Smith. 0:32:56.600 --> 0:33:00.800 So that was essentially the message that A communicated to 0:33:00.880 --> 0:33:04.840 that particular group. But it is really the core of 0:33:04.880 --> 0:33:08.280 the way I talk to anybody who raises this question 0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:11.840 that stops Christians in their tracks because they don't know 0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:14.760 how to characterize it. They come up with slogans, Oh, 0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:17.440 Jesus is the only way he died for our sins. 0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:23.000 Of course that's all true, but it doesn't register with people. 0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:27.440 They don't. We have to try to say it in 0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:31.280 a way that makes sense to them. I felt like 0:33:31.360 --> 0:33:34.680 the explanation I gave to that Jewish audience, it'll lead. 0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:38.120 At least it was coherent, you know, they could make 0:33:38.160 --> 0:33:41.080 sense to the point I was making. Now, may not 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:44.920 accept it. I suspect most didn't. But nevertheless, if you 0:33:44.920 --> 0:33:48.080 look at the parable of the sower in Mark thirteen, 0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:52.720 where Jesus explains the parable to the disciples, he mentions 0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:55.320 the first ground, which is hard ground on the seed 0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:58.640 is thrown on it and the birds take it away, 0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:01.160 and he says, this is the devil taking the seeds away. 0:34:01.160 --> 0:34:03.440 And I always thought, well, that's the hard headed people 0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:05.440 that it just bounces off, and a lot of those 0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:08.360 that's not the way Jesus put it. What Jesus says 0:34:08.440 --> 0:34:12.960 there in Matthew thirteen is he says, this is the 0:34:13.000 --> 0:34:17.239 people who hear the word and do not understand it, 0:34:19.400 --> 0:34:21.680 and then the devil takes out what has been sewn 0:34:21.719 --> 0:34:24.000 in their heart is what he says. It's getting in 0:34:24.040 --> 0:34:27.120 there makes no sense to them. It's gone, and so 0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:30.279 we have to talk in a way that at least 0:34:30.360 --> 0:34:33.880 makes sense to people. They can't reject something they don't understand, 0:34:34.040 --> 0:34:36.960 not in a meaningful way. They still will be judged 0:34:37.560 --> 0:34:42.319 for the rebellion. But when we bring an antidote, just 0:34:42.360 --> 0:34:44.040 like if a doctor brings an antidote to you, if 0:34:44.040 --> 0:34:46.080 they don't understand, if you don't understand what he's talking 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:47.879 about or how to apply the antidote, you're not going 0:34:47.920 --> 0:34:49.960 to do it anyway. So there you go. 0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:53.080 So let me ask you something that where do we 0:34:53.120 --> 0:34:57.720 reconcile this idea with In Acts twenty, Paul is calling 0:34:57.719 --> 0:35:00.399 for the Ephesian elders right to him. 0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:01.360 This is before he goes. 0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:04.840 To Jerusalem, and you know he's got his trial ahead 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.040 of him. The Efesian elders know that this is the 0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:09.080 last time they're going to be with their beloved Paul, 0:35:09.280 --> 0:35:12.480 and he tells them in his short time. There is 0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:16.520 the account that Luke gives us. He tells them, I 0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:21.080 am innocent of the blood of all because I did 0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:25.919 not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:30.480 Right that, by implication would mean that there is such 0:35:30.480 --> 0:35:33.080 a thing as a half council or a quarter council. 0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:38.680 What are you saying when? What are you thinking of? 0:35:38.760 --> 0:35:43.320 When Paul's talking about the whole council? Where's the danger 0:35:44.000 --> 0:35:45.720 of delivering a half council? 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:47.239 Does that make sense? Yeah? 0:35:47.320 --> 0:35:50.319 It does, But we have I know this passage well. 0:35:50.360 --> 0:35:54.160 In fact, I read it last week. I just finished 0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:55.600 the book I Acts a couple of days ago. It 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:57.279 just happened to be in my reading. And boy, isn't 0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:00.480 it Isn't that the case if you're concern and you're 0:36:00.520 --> 0:36:03.719 reading through scripture, it just so happens that something you 0:36:03.840 --> 0:36:07.160 just read pops up as an issue and need to 0:36:07.200 --> 0:36:12.600 be described. Okay, And I I think that Paul is 0:36:13.040 --> 0:36:19.160 not talking there about a culpability before God with regards 0:36:19.200 --> 0:36:24.920 to this stuff, like if I don't share my whatever 0:36:26.120 --> 0:36:28.520 with certain people, then I am going to be guilty 0:36:28.560 --> 0:36:31.360 before God. And so it's either guilt or innocence. I 0:36:31.400 --> 0:36:34.840 shared everything, so I'm not guilty before God. I think 0:36:35.320 --> 0:36:37.279 I think that what's going on there. 0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:39.359 Yes, and I recoonize we're talking about two different things. 0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:41.279 When we're talking about we just got through talking about 0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:45.120 the judgment of God. This is we're not talking about 0:36:45.120 --> 0:36:48.399 the same the same subject. So I'll just I'll say 0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:49.480 that here, Okay. 0:36:49.920 --> 0:36:51.799 I think that yeah, fair enough, Okay, as long as 0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:53.879 that that's the distinction is made. Some people might read 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:56.560 that and say, well, okay, now I'm guilty if I correct, 0:36:56.600 --> 0:37:01.319 and I am culpable before God. Now. But I think 0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:04.040 if you remember the history with the Aphesians, he spent 0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:09.000 two years in Ephesus. That's one of the reasons those 0:37:09.000 --> 0:37:12.520 relationships are so strong. And when they're they meet at 0:37:12.520 --> 0:37:14.440 the beach and he says, I'm not going to see anymore, 0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:18.319 and boy, they are really anguished about it. But he 0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:23.920 says the time will come when vicious wolves will ravage 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:30.120 the flock. And what he's saying is, before you, I 0:37:30.200 --> 0:37:33.799 have told you everything you need to know. I have 0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:36.160 given you the full council of God. Now that isn't true. 0:37:36.160 --> 0:37:37.920 And a whole bunch of other cities he went to. 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:41.160 He didn't have time to do that. But with the Ephesians. 0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:43.800 He did. He spent about two years in the school 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:47.640 of Haranus or whatever he said there and had a 0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:50.800 long time with them, working with them. It is a 0:37:51.040 --> 0:37:57.799 very spiritually mature group of Christians, and so I think 0:37:57.920 --> 0:38:03.000 that statement applies to that group. I've done what was 0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:06.600 necessary to protect you. I can't be called to account 0:38:06.880 --> 0:38:09.920 for not having given this to you. But as it 0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:12.399 turns out, there are lots of other places he didn't 0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:15.560 spend much time in at all, and he had to 0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:21.120 send Timothy and Titus at other times to choose elders 0:38:21.120 --> 0:38:24.719 for those fledgling flocks. He didn't have time to do 0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:27.759 the whole council of God. So I think that this 0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:31.799 responsibility to give the full counsel of God is a 0:38:31.880 --> 0:38:35.320 long term goal that we ought to have as Christian 0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:39.640 workers and leaders, if you will. Pastors, however, to keep 0:38:39.680 --> 0:38:42.680 communicating to various groups all the things that are important, 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:44.920 and some people you get a lot more time with. 0:38:45.520 --> 0:38:48.080 So I have my own team, I call it. I 0:38:48.080 --> 0:38:52.719 have twenty people on my staff. Nineteen and four others 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:56.760 of them or five one, two, three four five others 0:38:56.840 --> 0:39:02.040 right now are content providers. I have spent a lot 0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:08.960 of time with them personally out to dinner at events. 0:39:09.440 --> 0:39:13.120 We do regular interactive things online now because we can 0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:15.960 do this kind of thing a lot more access, even 0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:20.640 though they're spread out now around the country. And I 0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:25.080 could say, in some cases it's been twenty years or 0:39:25.360 --> 0:39:29.520 nineteen years or fifteen years or whatever. This this group, 0:39:29.640 --> 0:39:32.239 I call them my young guns. I'm the old gun. 0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:35.799 And I can say to them, I gave you the 0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:38.120 full counsel of God because I had the opportunity to 0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:44.200 do so, and I was intentionally investing myself in lots 0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:47.600 of different ways into their lives all right. 0:39:47.840 --> 0:39:48.080 Now. 0:39:48.280 --> 0:39:51.319 I couldn't say that about you, Granger. You know, I 0:39:51.360 --> 0:39:53.120 know you listen to some of the things that standard 0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:56.040 reason to read the book. I've offered you something, and 0:39:56.080 --> 0:40:00.000 it's true with a lot of people. But those guys, 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:04.560 my young guns, are capable now of protecting the flock 0:40:04.920 --> 0:40:09.160 that is is in their charge, Amen giving them the 0:40:09.200 --> 0:40:12.440 whole counsul. So I think that's it's not so much 0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:15.560 he's saying I'm innocent before God. I think he's saying 0:40:15.760 --> 0:40:18.640 with you guys, I'm innocent before you guys. 0:40:19.200 --> 0:40:20.960 Yeah, I read it's the same. 0:40:21.160 --> 0:40:25.080 I think you're absolutely right and the what ends up 0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:28.880 happening in ephesis is that wolves do come, and and 0:40:28.920 --> 0:40:31.360 not only from the outside, from the inside. 0:40:30.960 --> 0:40:32.759 Is the the scary part. 0:40:34.040 --> 0:40:37.640 And what a what a comfort to know that you 0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:41.799 are You are a minister that is so diligent in this, 0:40:42.440 --> 0:40:45.239 not only in your team and your your ministry and 0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:48.239 your equipping, but also in your personal devotion. You just 0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:53.319 mentioned you finished Acts a few days ago. It wouldn't hard, 0:40:53.360 --> 0:40:55.440 it wouldn't be hard to understand that you've gone through 0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:57.880 Acts hundreds and hundreds of times. 0:40:57.840 --> 0:40:58.840 In your in your life. 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:01.520 But but but it's still it's still not enough. You 0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:04.480 will do that continually till you have. 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:07.200 Well, let me say something about that because this might 0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:11.400 be helpful to viewers, and that is I have people 0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:15.360 ask me about techniques of Bible study, techniques of prayer. 0:41:16.080 --> 0:41:18.280 I know about Bible study. That I do about prayer. 0:41:18.280 --> 0:41:21.319 Prayers almost a complete mystery to me. I do not 0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:25.960 understand what might be called the calculus of prayer. And 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:27.840 Lewis made a point, look at you're not dealing with 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:32.840 a machine. You're dealing with a person, and so persons 0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:36.279 can say yes, no, maybe, so whatever you know, so 0:41:36.600 --> 0:41:39.759 you can't really maybe calculus isn't the right word to 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:43.959 use in a very precise sense, but generally speaking, Gee, 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:45.360 how many prayers do you have to pray? How do 0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:47.239 you pray? This is hard for me, and I have 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:50.439 books on prayer that are helpful, but I came down 0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:54.240 to this one simple thing. Okay, here's the first rule 0:41:54.360 --> 0:41:59.960 of prayer, s granger, pray, the first rule of prayers. 0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:00.400 Pray. 0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:03.360 You learn how to pray by praying. And if you 0:42:03.400 --> 0:42:05.600 don't understand anything else, and you can't forget, how I 0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:09.160 just pray? You have not because you ask not knock, seek, 0:42:09.280 --> 0:42:12.840 not ask, seek knock. You know kind of thing, stay 0:42:12.840 --> 0:42:15.440 at it. Just keep doing it even if you're confused. 0:42:16.120 --> 0:42:16.560 Okay. 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:22.120 And the first rule of Bible is to read. You know, 0:42:22.480 --> 0:42:24.200 you can get all kinds of commentaries and get all 0:42:24.200 --> 0:42:26.000 this set up and have all these systems, but lots 0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:28.080 of times you don't time for the systems. You still 0:42:28.120 --> 0:42:31.360 have time to read. Look, here's there's some things you 0:42:31.400 --> 0:42:36.319 cannot do tomorrow. You cannot pray today's prayer tomorrow. You 0:42:36.320 --> 0:42:41.360 can only pray tomorrow's prayers tomorrow. You cannot read today's 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:46.480 Bible tomorrow. That's tomorrow's Bible. You can only read today's 0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:49.360 Bible today. Now sometimes you miss it. You know, I'm traveling, 0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:51.279 I get up and the you know, I get that. 0:42:52.040 --> 0:42:54.839 But I do have a commitment though I've read through 0:42:54.840 --> 0:42:58.080 the Bible a number of times over the up until 0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:02.640 that's about twenty four twenty five years as a Christian. 0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:06.160 But I camped a lot in passages that I like 0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:08.480 the best. I like Proverbs, I like the New Testament. 0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:12.600 And then I was challenged by Jay Warner Wallace. He 0:43:12.920 --> 0:43:16.400 was doing an event for us, and he was using 0:43:16.400 --> 0:43:20.719 his cold case illustrations. But basically he says, you ought 0:43:20.719 --> 0:43:22.879 to start at the beginning and read to the end, 0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:25.640 and when you're done, start at the beginning and read 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:27.640 to the end. And when you're done, start at the 0:43:27.680 --> 0:43:30.239 beginning and read to the end and never stop your 0:43:30.239 --> 0:43:32.440 whole life. And so the way, And I've explained this 0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:35.200 to my own listeners. How I just have it's over 0:43:35.200 --> 0:43:37.480 there in my Bible, which you can't read from here. 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:40.520 But I have a Bible in a year kind of 0:43:40.520 --> 0:43:43.200 thing when you check off the chapters and stuff, and 0:43:43.280 --> 0:43:45.640 sometimes it's two or three chapters and only read one chapter. 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:48.680 So I just make a notation there. But my goal 0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:50.839 is to work through that whole thing, and I don't 0:43:50.840 --> 0:43:55.840 care about the year part takes me three to four years. 0:43:56.280 --> 0:43:59.319 What I care about is continuing to read through the 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:03.239 material so that I read the whole thing, and then 0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:05.960 I get a new thing I printed out, I start 0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:09.120 all over. And what this ensures, and this goes back 0:44:09.160 --> 0:44:13.160 to your comment about the Ephesian elders, it ensures that 0:44:13.400 --> 0:44:19.279 I am exposed to the full council of God. And 0:44:19.480 --> 0:44:23.000 it's nothing tricky, nothing fancy, no pressure. You know, if 0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:25.440 I don't read three chapters, I mean, some people do 0:44:25.480 --> 0:44:28.040 a Bible in the year and by February they're done 0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:31.440 because they're too far behind and they can't catch up. Well, 0:44:31.480 --> 0:44:35.000 don't worry about the year part. Just keep reading at 0:44:35.000 --> 0:44:37.520 your own pace. Make it a regular Usually it's a 0:44:37.600 --> 0:44:41.040 chapter a day for me. And if I don't do 0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:44.040 it in the morning because I'm traveling whatever, Usually when 0:44:44.040 --> 0:44:46.400 I go to bed at night, before I turn in, 0:44:46.480 --> 0:44:49.640 I'm reading something. I'll read a psalm, I'll read a 0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:51.880 pop I'm working through the psalms and proverbs in my 0:44:52.000 --> 0:44:56.359 own home. When I'm on the road, I might look 0:44:56.440 --> 0:44:59.040 something else up and read a little section, but I 0:44:59.160 --> 0:45:02.640 just want that all just getting into me, even if 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:06.080 I'm not particularly reflective on it, and there is a 0:45:06.120 --> 0:45:09.280 sense of the more you do this well, John MacArthur 0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:11.080 said long ago, you want to read the Bible so 0:45:11.160 --> 0:45:16.480 much that your blood is bibi. I thought that was 0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:17.040 pretty clever. 0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:18.080 I think that was very clever. 0:45:18.680 --> 0:45:21.840 So what this represents for me, you know, I'm busy 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:25.759 and everybody's busy, right is we find a way we're 0:45:25.760 --> 0:45:28.520 not too busy to eat. Yea, we find a way 0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:31.680 to you know, bolt something, sit down, maybe have a 0:45:31.680 --> 0:45:33.560 longer bial a lot of time, quicker or whatever. I've 0:45:33.560 --> 0:45:35.920 got some protein drink in the back I got to 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:36.919 grab before this is over. 0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:37.839 But the. 0:45:39.680 --> 0:45:43.319 The same thing is true with our spiritual nourishment. It 0:45:43.320 --> 0:45:45.000 doesn't have to be complicated. We have to have a 0:45:45.040 --> 0:45:49.279 banquet every time we sit down. Just keep eating a 0:45:49.280 --> 0:45:51.320 little here, a little there, a little here, a little there, 0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:54.719 and keep praying, keep eating with feeding, with the word 0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:55.240 and praying. 0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:58.680 And to that analogy, if man can't live on bread alone, 0:45:58.719 --> 0:46:01.120 but from every word that comes mouth, goba, I don't 0:46:01.120 --> 0:46:02.959 think we should skip. If we don't skip a meal, 0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:05.400 we probably shouldn't skip that feast either. 0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:06.520 Yeah, yeah. 0:46:06.920 --> 0:46:16.040 Yeah, So I try to regulate or taylor my own 0:46:16.160 --> 0:46:21.000 consistent feeding to troublesome schedules. But I don't say, okay, 0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:26.320 next week, next month. You know. It's like, by the 0:46:26.360 --> 0:46:29.080 way we're working out, you can't do today's work out tomorrow. 0:46:29.400 --> 0:46:32.359 That's right, do it today. Tomorrow's workout has his own. 0:46:32.480 --> 0:46:34.120 So anyway, maybe that's helpful. 0:46:33.840 --> 0:46:36.319 That's very helpful, And you've been so gracious with your time. 0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:38.799 I would be remiss if I didn't ask you, if 0:46:38.840 --> 0:46:42.160 you maybe I should say it this way. I'm probably 0:46:42.200 --> 0:46:47.360 the last generation that watched the show Colombo. Did you 0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:51.080 watch an Yeah? Okay, okay. So my producer sitting in here, 0:46:51.160 --> 0:46:54.960 he says he doesn't know Colombo. Yeah, okay, he knows it, 0:46:55.000 --> 0:46:58.200 but he didn't watch it. So explain to us Colombo 0:46:58.239 --> 0:46:59.480 and how this relates to any of this. 0:47:00.120 --> 0:47:03.600 All right, Well, now we're zooming into the area that 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:07.160 the book covers, and it has to do with evangelism 0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:13.160 and how do we traffic in evangelism successfully in a 0:47:13.239 --> 0:47:19.920 culture that's largely really mad at Christians who are genuine 0:47:20.480 --> 0:47:24.000 followers of Jesus an important qualifier. I don't know if 0:47:24.040 --> 0:47:26.840 you know this stranger but something like sixty five percent 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:31.200 of the people in this country self identify as Christians. 0:47:32.160 --> 0:47:35.600 Now you know that is I mean, in theological terms, 0:47:35.640 --> 0:47:38.719 that's nonsense. I'm not putting down their own thoughts or 0:47:38.760 --> 0:47:42.360 beliefs about themselves. I'm just saying Christianity is something very particular. 0:47:42.480 --> 0:47:45.640 And if you are a follower of Jesus, remember the 0:47:45.719 --> 0:47:49.280 Christians were the disciples, were first called Christians and Antioch. 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:52.560 That means Christians are disciples, at least that's the original sense. 0:47:52.719 --> 0:47:56.319 Followers of jeswis discipline, followers of Jesus. That means there's 0:47:56.360 --> 0:47:58.439 a certain set of things, they believe in a certain way, 0:47:58.480 --> 0:48:01.719 they act to be faithful to crist And so the 0:48:03.719 --> 0:48:06.399 world doesn't care about all those other Christians. They care 0:48:06.480 --> 0:48:09.400 about those ones that say the same thing about the 0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:13.520 nature of reality that Jesus himself said. So that's different, 0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:16.319 and that's offensive. I mean, Jesus got himself killed for 0:48:16.320 --> 0:48:19.279 good to sake. He wasn't just this wonderful guy that 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:22.279 everybody thought was wonderful. That happened for about a year 0:48:22.280 --> 0:48:24.400 and a half, maybe two years into his ministry. But 0:48:24.480 --> 0:48:27.120 after that Bread of life dies, of course, John three, 0:48:27.280 --> 0:48:29.200 he was on his own. Man, they cut him loose 0:48:29.719 --> 0:48:34.880 and they were mad at him. So how do we navigate? 0:48:35.440 --> 0:48:39.440 And over the years I, as I reflected on it, 0:48:39.480 --> 0:48:45.719 I had developed certain I don't know, maneuvers or techniques 0:48:45.760 --> 0:48:48.879 if you will, that made my job easier. But at 0:48:48.920 --> 0:48:53.239 the heart of it all and this expressed itself in 0:48:53.280 --> 0:48:55.720 what I call the game plan, a tactical game plan, 0:48:56.200 --> 0:48:58.320 was using questions to move forward. 0:48:58.800 --> 0:48:59.279 All right. 0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:02.759 Now, in my mind I was trying to think of 0:49:02.760 --> 0:49:04.920 a way to characterize this. It had a handle on it, 0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:07.880 so to speak, And I thought, Wow, Lieutenant Colombo of 0:49:08.000 --> 0:49:11.120 TV fame. Now TV is like a thing of a 0:49:11.200 --> 0:49:14.239 bygone era. Now you got cable, you got podcasts, you 0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:15.920 got you didn't have to have a TV. You can 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:18.080 get your computer and watch all kinds of stuff. But 0:49:18.120 --> 0:49:21.000 TV was the place where everybody congregated, the family did 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:24.640 and watch these programs, you know. And there were individual 0:49:25.000 --> 0:49:30.800 individuals that overtime took iconic status, memorable people like Lucy 0:49:30.960 --> 0:49:33.640 from I Love Loosely, for example. But it turns out 0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:37.000 Lucy is the number two most recognized TV icond of 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:40.719 all time. Lieutenant Columbus number one. And he's a guy 0:49:40.760 --> 0:49:43.960 that it was a murder mystery, and he'd come in 0:49:44.719 --> 0:49:47.200 and to the murder scene. He's wearing old trench coat. 0:49:47.480 --> 0:49:50.719 He's got a scraggly old cigar that he's smoking, and 0:49:52.400 --> 0:49:53.840 he's got a pad of paper, but it didn't have 0:49:53.880 --> 0:49:56.360 a pen because he didn't bring one. He's got a 0:49:56.400 --> 0:49:58.799 bum a pencil off of somebody, you know, and he's 0:49:58.800 --> 0:50:01.000 scratching his head and mutter and looking around. And this 0:50:01.040 --> 0:50:05.800 guy looks stupid, but he's stupid like a fox because 0:50:05.800 --> 0:50:08.960 he's got a plan. And at some point he'll, you know, 0:50:09.120 --> 0:50:12.239 scratch has had like his deep and painful thought. And 0:50:12.280 --> 0:50:15.040 then they'll say, I don't know. There's something about this 0:50:15.080 --> 0:50:17.360 thing that bothers me. He wanted to ask you a question, 0:50:17.440 --> 0:50:21.160 so my Columbu imitation, and so he asked the question. 0:50:21.400 --> 0:50:23.920 It works a lot better with the cigar, and that's 0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:26.759 right you from the stage. But in any event, but 0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:29.800 he asked the question, he gets information. You're very intelligent. 0:50:30.000 --> 0:50:32.920 One more thing, you know, any one more kings them 0:50:32.960 --> 0:50:36.440 to death. Question after question after question after question, and 0:50:36.480 --> 0:50:38.640 he says, look, I can't help it. It's a habit. 0:50:39.520 --> 0:50:41.520 And this is a habit Christians ought to get into. 0:50:42.160 --> 0:50:47.160 If you learn to navigate with questions. There are all 0:50:47.239 --> 0:50:50.840 kinds of advantages to that. For one, they're polite. You know, 0:50:51.880 --> 0:50:54.320 you know you ask questions of other people. I was 0:50:54.360 --> 0:50:58.160 asking earlier about your own career and navigating that. Of 0:50:58.239 --> 0:51:00.680 course you're asking me questions, that's your job situation. But 0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:03.120 I want to find out about you and that you 0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:06.239 probably felt good about that, so that's nice. Not only that, 0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:08.840 when we ask questions, we're getting information. So now I 0:51:08.840 --> 0:51:12.719 got a lot more information about you. Now that was 0:51:12.800 --> 0:51:14.879 just a curiosity. It wasn't like I'm trying to lead 0:51:14.920 --> 0:51:18.920 you to some spiritual end at that point. But a 0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:21.600 lot of times the information we get will help us 0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:24.160 to know where to go next. All right, we get 0:51:24.280 --> 0:51:28.319 you're getting intel. Another thing is and this is and 0:51:28.400 --> 0:51:34.799 this is really critical. Questions keep you safe. Questions keep 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:37.319 you safe. You realize when you're asking questions, you're not 0:51:37.680 --> 0:51:40.920 giving your own view, and so your own view can't 0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:46.200 be attacked. When people Christians might start making say, well 0:51:46.239 --> 0:51:50.399 the Bible's word of God? Really, who says who? Oh, 0:51:50.520 --> 0:51:53.880 now it's back in the Christian Maybe the Christian has 0:51:53.920 --> 0:51:56.680 an answer to that. But notice how the statement, which 0:51:56.760 --> 0:52:00.440 was a claim kind of in the face of thetic 0:52:00.920 --> 0:52:04.440 that was going to get a response. Okay, put up 0:52:04.480 --> 0:52:07.880 or shut up. Okay, But if you don't say, if 0:52:07.920 --> 0:52:11.960 you don't make a claim, if you want to talk 0:52:11.960 --> 0:52:13.840 about the Bible and say so, what's your view of 0:52:13.880 --> 0:52:17.839 the Bible, you're not making any claims about it. You're 0:52:17.840 --> 0:52:21.160 asking for their claims. So in principle, they're the ones 0:52:21.200 --> 0:52:22.920 who are vulnerable. Now we're not going to take a 0:52:23.000 --> 0:52:26.799 listed advantage of that, but we're getting information from them. 0:52:27.000 --> 0:52:29.560 So questions keep you safe. And now here's the third thing, 0:52:30.719 --> 0:52:36.280 fourth reason that questions are really valuable, and it's manifest 0:52:36.400 --> 0:52:42.800 right here in our conversation. In this conversation between you 0:52:42.840 --> 0:52:47.440 and me, Granger, I'm doing all the work. You're just 0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:53.399 sitting there asking me questions here and there. But the 0:52:53.680 --> 0:52:58.160 conversation is completely in your control because of the questions 0:52:58.280 --> 0:53:03.480 you ask in the driver's seat. And that's a critical 0:53:03.600 --> 0:53:06.719 quality of questions, because when you're asking questions, you're in 0:53:06.719 --> 0:53:09.320 the driver's yat of the conversation. That is, your questions 0:53:09.360 --> 0:53:13.040 will direct that conversation wherever you want it to go. Now, 0:53:13.040 --> 0:53:14.640 if you hit a dead end, you could just start 0:53:15.360 --> 0:53:17.200 David in the interview, you say, let me go this way. 0:53:17.239 --> 0:53:20.640 I'm gonna ask this question. Now, now we understand that's 0:53:20.719 --> 0:53:22.319 the nature of the interviews like this, But at the 0:53:22.320 --> 0:53:25.840 same time, the same dynamic is in play when we 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:29.960 are in conversations with other people. I think Christians are 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:35.359 nervous about having conversations about Jesus. Now, I didn't say 0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:38.759 faith conversations. I don't like that phrase because the word 0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:42.080 faith is so corrupted for any good use. People think 0:53:42.120 --> 0:53:45.839 blind faith and leap of faith. So in your conversations 0:53:45.880 --> 0:53:52.560 about Jesus, it's no I forgot the direction I was 0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:57.759 going to go with that particular point. When you're having discussions, 0:53:58.440 --> 0:54:00.000 you want to find out as much as you can 0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:02.960 about the other person's point of view. All right, you're 0:54:02.960 --> 0:54:06.560 going to do that by asking questions. Because oh and 0:54:06.600 --> 0:54:10.760 by the way, that's was the thought. Christians are sitting 0:54:10.800 --> 0:54:13.080 on the bench instead of having those conversations because they 0:54:13.080 --> 0:54:15.719 don't want to get stuck. They don't want to get 0:54:15.840 --> 0:54:18.400 challenged in a way. They don't know how to respond. 0:54:18.440 --> 0:54:21.320 It's embarrassing, it's awkward, and as far as they're concerned, 0:54:21.400 --> 0:54:22.799 they might be thinking, well, it's just going to hurt 0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:25.480 the gospel, it won't help. But if your commitment is 0:54:25.480 --> 0:54:28.000 to using questions in a productive way, and that's what 0:54:28.040 --> 0:54:30.839 the Tactics book teaches, among a whole lot of other things. 0:54:30.920 --> 0:54:33.759 But the core of the first section is the game plan, 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:39.960 which I call Colombo after the infamous Lieutenant Columbo. If 0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:42.080 you use those, you're going to find that you can 0:54:42.239 --> 0:54:50.360 navigate very safely and very productively in conversations, even if 0:54:50.400 --> 0:54:55.080 you're not very clever. I promise when I just liked 0:54:55.120 --> 0:54:59.759 this last weekend and I was in Franklin, just south 0:54:59.800 --> 0:55:05.319 of you're very familiar, so and I said, I'm going 0:55:05.400 --> 0:55:07.720 to give you a game plan in the next twenty 0:55:07.760 --> 0:55:11.520 minutes after I did my preliminary stuff that is going 0:55:11.560 --> 0:55:14.840 to allow you to converse with confidence in any situation, 0:55:15.640 --> 0:55:19.960 no matter how little you know or how knowledgeable or 0:55:20.000 --> 0:55:24.319 aggressive or even obnoxious the other person happens to be. 0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:28.000 So that's my promise. And in that case, I'm only 0:55:28.280 --> 0:55:32.760 giving the first two steps of the three step game plan. 0:55:33.040 --> 0:55:35.240 The third step is more advanced, but the first step 0:55:35.320 --> 0:55:39.000 is simple. And when you start employing even those two 0:55:39.040 --> 0:55:43.759 steps as a total novice in the not only in 0:55:43.800 --> 0:55:45.760 the use of the game plan, but as a novice, 0:55:45.760 --> 0:55:48.560 as a Christian, You're going to be amazed at how 0:55:49.880 --> 0:55:52.680 how much easier your conversations are going to be, how 0:55:52.760 --> 0:55:56.000 much safer you're going to feel, and amazingly, how much 0:55:56.040 --> 0:55:59.799 you can accomplish in people's lives. I have a book 0:56:00.200 --> 0:56:03.120 to the tactics and book and that's I think I 0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:06.680 have it here. Yeah, it's and it's a sequel. So 0:56:06.719 --> 0:56:10.439 it really capitalizes on the third step of the game plan, 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:13.919 which is using questions to make a point. And here's 0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:15.520 that book. It's called The Streets of Arts. 0:56:16.080 --> 0:56:16.520 There we go. 0:56:16.640 --> 0:56:18.840 That's great to get it right there, it's called the 0:56:18.880 --> 0:56:24.160 subtitle using questions to answer Christianity stuff has challenges. How 0:56:24.200 --> 0:56:25.720 do you use a question to answer a challenge? 0:56:25.760 --> 0:56:28.040 Which is what Jesus did many times. 0:56:27.880 --> 0:56:30.480 Many times, exactly right. There's over two hundred times he 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:33.880 asked questions in the gospels. So, but in here, I 0:56:33.920 --> 0:56:36.920 have an anecdote, and I from a gal who called 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:38.279 the radio show, so I had a recording of it. 0:56:38.360 --> 0:56:40.480 I got it all right, she said, the very first 0:56:40.480 --> 0:56:42.759 time I used the tactical approach is what happened. It 0:56:42.800 --> 0:56:45.080 was amazing, she said, Oh, what the heck, I'll just 0:56:45.120 --> 0:56:47.000 try it. She was in a bookstore looking for a 0:56:47.080 --> 0:56:50.839 Christian book, and she was asking one of the you know, 0:56:51.040 --> 0:56:54.000 the people who worked at the store to help her 0:56:54.040 --> 0:56:58.040 find the book. And then she started using the tactical 0:56:58.080 --> 0:57:00.560 approach and using some of the initial questions. It's a 0:57:00.640 --> 0:57:05.239 great account in there about how God used that. I 0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:07.720 also have in the Street Smarts book. I talk about 0:57:07.760 --> 0:57:14.280 this waitress, this waitress in Seattle that you know I. 0:57:14.280 --> 0:57:16.280 I don't know if you know this, but most people don't. 0:57:16.320 --> 0:57:18.400 I'm not a morning person and so you know, I 0:57:18.480 --> 0:57:21.280 take a long time to get rolling. And I got 0:57:21.280 --> 0:57:23.480 my before my first cup of coffee. I'm an atheist, 0:57:23.560 --> 0:57:27.560 you know, so one of those kinds of things. So anyway, 0:57:27.600 --> 0:57:29.800 this I did a Friday night of it all day 0:57:29.800 --> 0:57:32.680 Saturday in Seattle. I'm rolling out my robber bag. On 0:57:32.760 --> 0:57:34.640 Sunday morning at or dark thirty, I got to go 0:57:34.640 --> 0:57:37.320 to a church and preach at two services. I'm beat up, 0:57:37.360 --> 0:57:40.480 I'm tired, but I'm still trying to wake up. And 0:57:40.520 --> 0:57:43.040 I don't want to talk about Jesus. I don't want 0:57:43.040 --> 0:57:45.360 to talk about God. I don't want to talk leave 0:57:45.360 --> 0:57:47.600 me alone. I just want my coffee. 0:57:48.040 --> 0:57:49.600 Yeah, but this guy comes up to me. 0:57:49.680 --> 0:57:53.800 She's way too animated for me that morning. This the waitress, 0:57:54.080 --> 0:57:59.000 Oh God, go away, I'm thinking. Then she says, you know, 0:57:59.080 --> 0:58:01.320 what are you doing here at all? And I figured 0:58:01.360 --> 0:58:02.840 to get rid of her, and I say, well, I'm 0:58:02.840 --> 0:58:05.919 going to preach out a church. I figure off. She goes, yeah, yeah, 0:58:06.360 --> 0:58:10.720 but she says, oh good, No, what's good about that? 0:58:11.240 --> 0:58:11.560 For her? 0:58:11.760 --> 0:58:13.880 To her right right? Yeah? 0:58:13.960 --> 0:58:16.120 So I said why, why is that good? Are you 0:58:16.160 --> 0:58:18.720 a Christian? I mean that's possible. She says, no, I'm 0:58:18.720 --> 0:58:20.840 not a Christian. And then she says I used to 0:58:20.840 --> 0:58:23.680 be a Christian, but I'm not anymore now. She says, 0:58:24.760 --> 0:58:30.360 the universe takes Caribby, and I'm thinking, huh. So I 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:32.040 asked her, I said, how could the universe take care 0:58:32.040 --> 0:58:37.480 of you? I'm confused about that. Now, For people who 0:58:37.520 --> 0:58:39.880 don't know the tactical game plan, the very first step 0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:41.880 is asking the question what do you mean by that? 0:58:42.360 --> 0:58:45.760 Or some variation? All right. Now, Remember I'm not trying 0:58:45.760 --> 0:58:48.360 to witness. But she says this thing, and I don't understand. 0:58:48.400 --> 0:58:51.520 So I'm saying, like, what do you mean? And she said, no, 0:58:51.560 --> 0:58:53.040 the universe is not a person. I said, well, how 0:58:53.040 --> 0:58:56.200 can it take care of you. She said, oh, well 0:58:56.200 --> 0:58:58.720 maybe God takes careby Oh okay, well that makes sense. 0:58:58.720 --> 0:59:02.320 And then she says God is the sure and I'm thinking, 0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:05.520 what does that mean? So I asked her about that. 0:59:05.880 --> 0:59:09.720 I'm friendly, sure, you know, and she just kept going 0:59:09.760 --> 0:59:14.320 on with these kind of confused New agey kind of 0:59:14.360 --> 0:59:17.280 statements and I couldn't and finally she just gave up 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:20.200 and left, and honest to goodness, as I was sitting there, 0:59:20.200 --> 0:59:22.000 I was thinking, in my mind, there's not a single 0:59:22.040 --> 0:59:27.440 thing that I said that had any impact on her whatsoever. 0:59:27.720 --> 0:59:30.000 She was into her own New Age world and she 0:59:30.120 --> 0:59:31.080 tried Christianity. 0:59:31.080 --> 0:59:31.680 She's done with that. 0:59:31.760 --> 0:59:34.960 Off she goes, you brought my breakfast, And when she 0:59:35.000 --> 0:59:38.200 brought the bill, here's what she said to me. She said, 0:59:38.280 --> 0:59:40.880 nobody has ever asked me questions about my view before. 0:59:42.080 --> 0:59:45.680 And it got me thinking. Now, if you read the book, 0:59:45.960 --> 0:59:48.680 you know this. My goal of asking these questions is 0:59:48.720 --> 0:59:51.840 not to lead people to Christ. That's the harvest. You 0:59:51.920 --> 0:59:53.720 got to have the gardening before you have the harvest. 0:59:53.760 --> 0:59:55.880 I just want a garden, and all I want to 0:59:55.880 --> 0:59:58.600 do is get them thinking. And she said that got 0:59:58.600 --> 1:00:02.440 me thinking. Now, my question is did I want to 1:00:02.520 --> 1:00:07.040 witness to this girl. No, I didn't want a witness. 1:00:07.600 --> 1:00:12.240 Leave me alone. So here, even against my will by 1:00:13.080 --> 1:00:17.120 in almost in a knee jerk way, with my inner 1:00:17.120 --> 1:00:21.320 Columbo coming out, responding to the crazy thing she's saying 1:00:21.360 --> 1:00:27.440 to me. God still used it. That's just the first step. 1:00:27.720 --> 1:00:28.520 It's amazing. 1:00:28.800 --> 1:00:30.920 Yeah, and I've heard this from other people before. I 1:00:30.960 --> 1:00:33.720 tell that accountant, but that's in the Streets of March book, 1:00:33.720 --> 1:00:37.720 which goes into more detail. But well's there's lots of illustrations. 1:00:37.840 --> 1:00:40.080 Let's put legs on this conversation and kind of bring it, 1:00:40.280 --> 1:00:43.960 bring it full circle from the question now of are 1:00:44.000 --> 1:00:47.680 you telling me that if I don't. 1:00:47.400 --> 1:00:50.360 Believe the way you believe, I'm going to hell? 1:00:51.560 --> 1:00:54.360 Because now you would you would you would answer that 1:00:54.400 --> 1:00:55.200 with a question now? 1:00:55.760 --> 1:00:58.920 So yeah, okay, so we're kind of in a role 1:00:58.920 --> 1:00:59.520 play right now. 1:00:59.640 --> 1:01:00.280 Yeah. Sure. 1:01:00.440 --> 1:01:02.040 Now I have the thing that I explained to you 1:01:02.080 --> 1:01:04.520 before firmly in my mind, but sometimes I may get 1:01:04.520 --> 1:01:07.200 to that in a different route. And so when you 1:01:07.280 --> 1:01:10.200 said that you're telling me, I said, let me Granger, 1:01:10.280 --> 1:01:11.800 let me ask you a question in a way that 1:01:11.920 --> 1:01:13.600 is kind of what I'm saying. But what is it 1:01:13.720 --> 1:01:19.280 you think that means all right, So I think people 1:01:19.280 --> 1:01:23.680 don't understand what's going on there, and so I'm tossing 1:01:23.720 --> 1:01:25.000 it back to you. 1:01:25.280 --> 1:01:26.200 So that's the first stay. 1:01:26.280 --> 1:01:28.040 Yeah, this is a way of putting it. 1:01:28.080 --> 1:01:29.400 What do you mean by that first step? 1:01:29.520 --> 1:01:32.000 That's what do you mean? Well, yeah, it's just this 1:01:32.120 --> 1:01:35.840 is just that for I'm getting more clarification. Okay, But 1:01:35.960 --> 1:01:39.240 you asked that in a certain way because I think 1:01:39.240 --> 1:01:41.320 you have a certain understanding of what you think my 1:01:41.440 --> 1:01:44.920 view is. Even though I could say yes, strictly speaking 1:01:45.120 --> 1:01:48.400 to the question you asked, it's a distortion of my view. 1:01:48.520 --> 1:01:50.560 So I want to ask you, what is it you 1:01:50.800 --> 1:01:56.080 think my view is with regards to Jesus that I 1:01:56.080 --> 1:01:59.720 would say such a thing. And so now it's your turn. 1:02:00.840 --> 1:02:03.800 But notice I just I just deflected it. Now if 1:02:03.840 --> 1:02:08.120 this isn't for the purpose of merely deflecting the challenge, correct, 1:02:08.480 --> 1:02:10.720 it's to try to get to the heart of the matter. 1:02:11.680 --> 1:02:15.720 And and uh, And you might say, I have no 1:02:15.840 --> 1:02:18.120 idea why you'd say such a thing like that. It 1:02:18.200 --> 1:02:21.600 sounds really arrogant to me. Okay, it sounds like you're 1:02:21.640 --> 1:02:22.880 in and everybody else's out. 1:02:23.120 --> 1:02:24.840 Okay, So let's continue the role play. 1:02:24.880 --> 1:02:28.320 So I say, I think that you're completely arrogant and 1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:29.360 you're narrow minded. 1:02:29.480 --> 1:02:30.560 That's okay, that's what I think. 1:02:30.640 --> 1:02:38.200 So I might say, how well this is? This is 1:02:38.200 --> 1:02:40.320 probably what I wouldn't be what i'd say here, but 1:02:40.360 --> 1:02:44.720 I'll just give it a little tool. How would if 1:02:44.840 --> 1:02:47.720 I agreed with you that I was arrogant and I 1:02:47.760 --> 1:02:52.920 was narrow minded? Would that change the truth of the 1:02:53.000 --> 1:02:56.400 claim I'm making about Jesus. 1:02:57.440 --> 1:02:58.280 Let's stop. She didn't. 1:02:58.560 --> 1:03:00.920 I would say, yeah, Well, the answer there's no, obviously, 1:03:01.000 --> 1:03:03.800 because arrogant people can be right about things right narrow 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:06.800 minded people. So that's a change of the subject. Okay, 1:03:06.840 --> 1:03:10.440 And I might use that under different circumstances. But then 1:03:10.480 --> 1:03:14.720 i'd ask, okay, Granger, Okay, this is all about Jesus 1:03:15.760 --> 1:03:18.280 and what he did. So here's the question I want 1:03:18.280 --> 1:03:20.240 to ask you. And maybe you don't have an answer, 1:03:20.280 --> 1:03:25.000 and that's okay, But what do you think Jesus came 1:03:25.200 --> 1:03:27.320 to do? As far as you understand. 1:03:27.000 --> 1:03:29.680 It, And he came to he was a good person, 1:03:29.720 --> 1:03:31.920 and he came to tell people good morals and how 1:03:31.960 --> 1:03:33.040 to live their life. 1:03:33.080 --> 1:03:35.640 Okay, well he did do that. There's no question at 1:03:35.640 --> 1:03:37.800 all about that he was a good person, he did 1:03:37.800 --> 1:03:42.160 say those things. Where did you get that idea? 1:03:42.200 --> 1:03:42.320 Though? 1:03:42.360 --> 1:03:43.120 I'm just curious. 1:03:43.600 --> 1:03:46.520 I just I hear other people, you know, Christians talking 1:03:46.600 --> 1:03:47.000 this way. 1:03:47.680 --> 1:03:49.440 So have you ever read Jesus. 1:03:51.320 --> 1:03:54.600 I know enough about Jesus to not need to read 1:03:54.640 --> 1:03:55.880 them seriously. 1:03:56.240 --> 1:03:59.400 Okay, well on this issue, just saying here, Granger, and 1:03:59.440 --> 1:04:03.800 we're still on this issue. This is a really important question. 1:04:04.560 --> 1:04:08.760 So if you're getting your information about Jesus on this 1:04:08.880 --> 1:04:11.800 really important question from a whole bunch of other people 1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:15.560 rather than straight from the horse's mouth, do you think 1:04:15.560 --> 1:04:17.800 there's a chance you might be misunderstanding Jesus. 1:04:19.440 --> 1:04:21.600 I think there might be a chance, But I think 1:04:21.640 --> 1:04:26.000 that the matter is I don't really see why God 1:04:26.120 --> 1:04:30.440 would use one religion above another, and so I find 1:04:30.480 --> 1:04:33.280 no need to really understand what Jesus is saying. 1:04:33.600 --> 1:04:37.720 Okay, well, I definitely can understand how you would say 1:04:37.720 --> 1:04:40.560 that if it was just a matter of choosing a 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:44.280 religious club. So let me try to make a parallel. 1:04:45.680 --> 1:04:51.280 What if what if you had a really bad pain 1:04:51.360 --> 1:04:54.640 in your abdomen and acute man, it's like, oh man, 1:04:54.720 --> 1:04:59.600 something's wrong, maybe it's appendicitis, And then I said, you 1:04:59.640 --> 1:05:00.640 need to a dentist. 1:05:03.080 --> 1:05:04.680 Yeah, so that's pretty bad. 1:05:04.760 --> 1:05:08.240 Yeah, I say, wait, what makes you think that one 1:05:08.280 --> 1:05:13.440 person should care about one doctor over another doctor? Doctors 1:05:13.480 --> 1:05:16.560 or doctors, whatever, Just go to a doctor you like, 1:05:17.600 --> 1:05:19.840 a cheap one. Whatever. But you're going to say, wait 1:05:19.880 --> 1:05:23.640 a minute, Dennis does a different thing than what I need. 1:05:24.680 --> 1:05:25.120 Okay. 1:05:25.320 --> 1:05:27.840 So I'm just giving you a parallel here, Granger, to 1:05:27.960 --> 1:05:31.320 help you to see that it's not so easy to say, 1:05:31.760 --> 1:05:35.120 how could God prefer one religion over another? If God's 1:05:35.160 --> 1:05:39.360 trying to accomplish something, then you have to look at 1:05:39.360 --> 1:05:41.840 what he's trying to accomplish and see if those different 1:05:41.920 --> 1:05:45.280 religions reflect that. By the way, I'm not sure about 1:05:45.280 --> 1:05:47.480 your own convictions, but a lot of people think that 1:05:47.960 --> 1:05:50.439 all religions are basically the same and they all kind 1:05:50.440 --> 1:05:51.720 of one way or another lead to God. 1:05:51.840 --> 1:05:53.000 That's what I think. 1:05:53.120 --> 1:05:58.720 Yeah, okay, so Christians think that Jesus is the Messiah 1:05:59.520 --> 1:06:03.920 and Jews think that he's not. Now he either is 1:06:04.200 --> 1:06:07.840 or he isn't. How can they both be right on 1:06:07.960 --> 1:06:09.200 that really important factor? 1:06:11.120 --> 1:06:16.240 Yeah, that's a good question. You know, Mohammed is claiming 1:06:16.240 --> 1:06:18.720 the same thing. So that's why I think all religions 1:06:18.720 --> 1:06:20.680 are just false man made ideas. 1:06:21.760 --> 1:06:24.880 Oh okay, well, now we're talking about something entirely different 1:06:24.880 --> 1:06:29.480 that their man made is because Mohammed, Christianity teaches that 1:06:29.560 --> 1:06:33.520 Jesus died and across and rose in the dead. Jews 1:06:34.520 --> 1:06:37.520 think that Jesus died and across, but he didn't rise 1:06:37.520 --> 1:06:41.120 from the dead. Mohammed taught that Jesus didn't rise from 1:06:41.160 --> 1:06:44.960 the dead because he didn't even die in across. Now, 1:06:45.000 --> 1:06:48.160 this whole idea of the death and resurrection of Christ, 1:06:48.200 --> 1:06:51.800 you know this just because you live in America and 1:06:51.880 --> 1:06:54.280 Easter is coming up, is a big deal to Christians. 1:06:54.280 --> 1:06:57.240 This central right. So everybody can't be right on this. 1:06:57.680 --> 1:07:00.600 How about this one. I'm just talking about one idea. 1:07:03.720 --> 1:07:06.880 Muslims and Christians and Jews think that God is personal, 1:07:07.320 --> 1:07:09.040 kind of like you and I are in a certain sense. 1:07:09.040 --> 1:07:12.960 You can talk to him, He does stuff. Now, Hindus 1:07:13.240 --> 1:07:16.240 think that God is not personal, he's kind of a 1:07:16.240 --> 1:07:19.840 force or something like that. Well, he's either personal or 1:07:19.840 --> 1:07:24.120 not personal if he exists. So if he's impersonal, the 1:07:24.160 --> 1:07:26.040 Hindus are right, and the Jews and Christians are wrong 1:07:26.080 --> 1:07:31.959 on God. And if he's personal, then they're right on God. 1:07:32.040 --> 1:07:34.040 And the Hindus are wrong, but they can all both 1:07:34.040 --> 1:07:36.560 be right, all right, So how is it that all 1:07:36.600 --> 1:07:39.240 of these religions are basically the same? And I'll get 1:07:39.280 --> 1:07:41.000 you to God when they don't even agree on what 1:07:41.040 --> 1:07:44.240 God's like. So I'm just going to a point you 1:07:44.280 --> 1:07:48.160 made a little bit earlier, that all religions are legitimate 1:07:48.680 --> 1:07:50.720 past the God. I'm just trying to get you to 1:07:50.760 --> 1:07:53.560 think about that, so that makes sense to you. 1:07:53.680 --> 1:07:56.720 I can understand here, mister Cochl that you are evidently 1:07:57.240 --> 1:08:01.240 you have some knowledge in this subject. And so I'm 1:08:01.280 --> 1:08:03.360 still kind of wrapping around to my first question. So 1:08:03.480 --> 1:08:06.880 why is it obviously somebody's right and somebody's wrong. You 1:08:06.920 --> 1:08:08.760 made a good point about that, okay, And why do 1:08:08.840 --> 1:08:09.919 you think you're right? 1:08:10.240 --> 1:08:13.560 How does that? How could you say you're right and 1:08:13.680 --> 1:08:14.120 I'm wrong? 1:08:15.400 --> 1:08:21.680 Simple answer? Jesus Jesus. And I don't mean Jesus in 1:08:21.760 --> 1:08:25.080 a book. I mean that Jesus in history, feet on 1:08:25.120 --> 1:08:31.080 the ground, all right, Jesus of Nazareth, all right, he's 1:08:31.120 --> 1:08:35.759 a guy who lived and died and then something strange 1:08:35.800 --> 1:08:39.120 happened because whom they put him in was empty three 1:08:39.200 --> 1:08:42.400 days later. And there's a whole bunch of people who 1:08:42.439 --> 1:08:46.360 said they saw him alive after he was dead, which 1:08:46.400 --> 1:08:51.880 is the basic definition of a resurrection. And then they 1:08:52.400 --> 1:08:54.360 in a certain sense of time that were willing to 1:08:54.400 --> 1:08:57.920 sign their testimony and blood. These people are all willing 1:08:57.960 --> 1:09:01.760 to die. Now, how could they be lying? Incidentally, the 1:09:01.760 --> 1:09:04.040 points I just made about Jesus lived and he died, 1:09:04.080 --> 1:09:06.519 and the tomb was empty, and these guys say they 1:09:06.520 --> 1:09:08.639 saw him. These are facts of history. When I say 1:09:08.680 --> 1:09:11.959 facts of history, I'm not just advancing my own opinion 1:09:12.000 --> 1:09:16.520 about this. These are the facts that virtually all historians 1:09:16.720 --> 1:09:21.320 of the era, no matter what their personal convictions acknowledge, 1:09:21.360 --> 1:09:25.400 are well attested by the historical evidence in the primary 1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:29.200 source documents that we possess. So I mean, they don't 1:09:29.200 --> 1:09:31.880 all think Jesus rose in the dead. But then we 1:09:31.960 --> 1:09:34.280 have to ask the question, what was the point of 1:09:34.320 --> 1:09:37.280 these guys saying he did if he didn't, if they 1:09:37.320 --> 1:09:41.680 didn't experience that, Because you know, lots of people die 1:09:41.680 --> 1:09:43.240 for a lie, but not if they know it's a lie. 1:09:44.200 --> 1:09:46.840 And I'll tell you the rule about lying, Granger, and 1:09:46.880 --> 1:09:50.600 every kid knows this, all right, tell a lie that 1:09:50.680 --> 1:09:53.920 gets you something good, You don't tell a lie that 1:09:54.000 --> 1:10:00.559 gets you whipped, beaten with rods, stoned, crucified up side down, 1:10:00.880 --> 1:10:04.320 or beheaded. This is not a good lie, no, but 1:10:04.439 --> 1:10:08.040 this is what these disciples who said they saw Jesus 1:10:09.320 --> 1:10:14.759 were willing to endure. Based on their confession of seeing Jesus. 1:10:15.479 --> 1:10:19.599 These guys weren't lying. That's so when I look at 1:10:19.880 --> 1:10:23.400 the options, and there I got Jesus, a very unique 1:10:23.439 --> 1:10:27.719 individual who I can establish some certain historical facts pretty clearly, 1:10:28.960 --> 1:10:32.599 and then I reason from those historical facts, what's the 1:10:32.600 --> 1:10:36.240 best explanation for the fact that Jesus was dead and 1:10:36.280 --> 1:10:40.120 then the tomb was empty, and then all these people 1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:45.679 were willing to on the pain of death. They didn't 1:10:45.680 --> 1:10:48.080 all die matery staffs, but lots of them did, and 1:10:48.120 --> 1:10:50.880 they all got persecuted. We're willing to say we saw 1:10:50.920 --> 1:10:55.000 this guy, we saw him after he rose from the dead, 1:10:55.280 --> 1:10:59.479 and we're communicating this message and what this resurrection seals. 1:10:59.520 --> 1:11:02.479 And maybe the goes to your point a little bit 1:11:02.479 --> 1:11:08.120 more clearly. And I made reference to this earlier before 1:11:08.160 --> 1:11:13.400 the role play. Actually, but in any event, one of Jesus' 1:11:13.400 --> 1:11:19.760 followers wrote this that the resurrection of Christ declared with 1:11:20.000 --> 1:11:23.679 power that he was the son of God. In other words, 1:11:23.840 --> 1:11:26.280 he was God come down. Now why did he come down? 1:11:27.040 --> 1:11:32.080 Because he cared enough about you and me, who are 1:11:32.840 --> 1:11:35.439 violators of God's law and are guilty. And I don't 1:11:35.439 --> 1:11:36.960 need to tell you that because you already know it 1:11:37.960 --> 1:11:41.719 all right. Everybody knows about themselves. And he was willing 1:11:41.800 --> 1:11:48.000 to take the punishment that is due us so that 1:11:48.080 --> 1:11:52.240 we could be forgiven. He's going to pay the penalty, 1:11:52.240 --> 1:11:56.800 He's going to take the wrap. And he did that, 1:11:57.840 --> 1:11:59.679 and then when he rose from the dead, that showed 1:11:59.760 --> 1:12:03.960 he accomplished what he was after. Now you have a choice. 1:12:05.400 --> 1:12:09.599 You can either go with Jesus or go it alone. 1:12:10.400 --> 1:12:14.240 By the way, Jesus means forgiveness and going it alone 1:12:14.720 --> 1:12:17.519 means just the opposite justice. 1:12:18.400 --> 1:12:22.080 I think I was just saved. I think this table 1:12:22.200 --> 1:12:22.960 was saved there. 1:12:23.680 --> 1:12:25.720 But let me just this is a great role play, 1:12:25.760 --> 1:12:29.200 and I appreciate you going there. And notice how when 1:12:29.200 --> 1:12:32.040 I explained how I responded to that question with the 1:12:32.080 --> 1:12:34.920 Jewish audience. I have this tough in my mind, but 1:12:34.960 --> 1:12:37.559 I kind of adapted it to our circumstance and I 1:12:37.640 --> 1:12:40.479 used lots of questions and then when it got to 1:12:40.520 --> 1:12:42.679 the point where I really needed to explain I used 1:12:42.680 --> 1:12:45.679 this illustrations that I hope would make sense, but there 1:12:45.800 --> 1:12:48.559 was not a word of Christian psycho babble. And that 1:12:48.800 --> 1:12:52.519 entire explanation true. And this is something that I think 1:12:52.640 --> 1:12:55.280 is really important in the Tactics book, as the Tactics says, 1:12:55.320 --> 1:13:01.080 watch your language. And that's what I'm talking about Christian psychobabble, 1:13:01.280 --> 1:13:05.080 because it doesn't communicate. It's just religious noise to most people, 1:13:05.320 --> 1:13:06.760 and I think the most Christians too. 1:13:07.560 --> 1:13:09.960 And so for people listening, can you give us a 1:13:09.960 --> 1:13:12.679 few of these words what I like to call Christian ease? 1:13:13.240 --> 1:13:15.000 Oh yeah, so what are some of these words? There's 1:13:15.000 --> 1:13:18.600 a whole category. Well, notice I didn't say saved. I 1:13:18.640 --> 1:13:21.559 didn't use the word faith. I didn't use the word believe. 1:13:22.400 --> 1:13:25.439 When I talked about my own if you will, my 1:13:25.560 --> 1:13:29.040 own the content of my faith. I talk about my convictions. 1:13:29.680 --> 1:13:33.639 If I were to say I'm impressing you or granger, 1:13:33.640 --> 1:13:35.760 I was going to challenge you. I'm not going to 1:13:35.800 --> 1:13:40.000 say receive Jesus as Lord and savior. I'm going to 1:13:40.080 --> 1:13:43.800 say I want you to trust Christ because he did 1:13:43.840 --> 1:13:45.479 something for you you don't want to have to do 1:13:45.560 --> 1:13:48.679 for yourself. He took the punishment. And then I want 1:13:48.680 --> 1:13:50.679 you to follow Jesus and never stop. 1:13:51.760 --> 1:13:54.760 It's great, it's so clear, practical. 1:13:55.000 --> 1:13:58.639 Lord and Savior. Now those terms mean something, but they 1:13:58.640 --> 1:14:03.040 don't mean anything to the other guy, and they're largely 1:14:03.720 --> 1:14:09.400 stale Christian religious phrases even to us. You know, I 1:14:09.479 --> 1:14:12.720 have this whole category of pastor speak. You can talk 1:14:12.720 --> 1:14:14.800 to a pastor, you know, at the grocery store, and 1:14:14.840 --> 1:14:16.280 he's going to talk a certain way the minute he 1:14:16.320 --> 1:14:20.720 gets up on the dayas at a Sunday services, he 1:14:21.240 --> 1:14:25.679 often pastors speak and he's saying all this, Amen, brothers, Amen, brothers, 1:14:25.960 --> 1:14:29.840 what a blessing, hallelujah, well, hallelujahs, praising God. But I 1:14:29.840 --> 1:14:33.519 mean all that other stuff. Why pastors say amen, amen, Amen, 1:14:33.640 --> 1:14:35.320 they're trying to get a rise out of the audience. 1:14:35.360 --> 1:14:37.120 Because what they're saying doesn't get a rise is out 1:14:37.120 --> 1:14:41.479 of the audience. So stop doing that. Just preach in 1:14:41.479 --> 1:14:43.920 a manner that affects the audience. Don't ask for an 1:14:44.000 --> 1:14:46.800 artificial applause. Well, on that. 1:14:46.800 --> 1:14:49.040 Note, let me ask you one more question. So back 1:14:49.080 --> 1:14:53.240 to the role play. So I say I want to 1:14:53.280 --> 1:14:56.000 know more about this kid. Could you pray for me? 1:14:56.320 --> 1:14:59.120 What would be the contents of your short prayer with 1:14:59.200 --> 1:14:59.800 everything we said. 1:14:59.840 --> 1:15:04.120 So, yeah, of course I might ask why would you 1:15:04.160 --> 1:15:06.400 want me to I'd be happy to pray for your grature, 1:15:06.439 --> 1:15:08.559 but why do you want me to pray? And if 1:15:08.600 --> 1:15:09.880 I don't have an answer to that, I don't know 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:13.120 how to pray properly? Okay, So I mean I might 1:15:13.200 --> 1:15:16.200 say that, or I might just jump into it. I 1:15:16.280 --> 1:15:18.599 use that as an illustration. This is another step of colombo. 1:15:19.040 --> 1:15:20.920 What do you mean by that? What's going on there? 1:15:21.000 --> 1:15:26.160 Help me out? Notice how it's interactive, and every step 1:15:26.200 --> 1:15:28.960 that I can get more information from you. I want 1:15:29.000 --> 1:15:31.720 to do that because it keeps you involved and it 1:15:31.760 --> 1:15:35.040 helps me understand you better. But I might say, Father, 1:15:36.200 --> 1:15:38.400 let me say, well, okay, i'll make this comment after 1:15:38.439 --> 1:15:41.400 the father. I'm praying for a granger right now, and 1:15:41.439 --> 1:15:44.760 I'm so glad that you gave us an opportunity to 1:15:44.880 --> 1:15:48.640 have this conversation. And I know there's a lot of 1:15:48.680 --> 1:15:52.120 things he's confused about, and that's okay, it's the learning process. 1:15:52.920 --> 1:15:56.559 But I pray that the things that I shared with 1:15:56.640 --> 1:16:00.160 him today will find a place in his heart, that 1:16:00.320 --> 1:16:04.080 you will take these things that I've said and open 1:16:04.160 --> 1:16:08.840 his understanding to them so that he can benefit from 1:16:08.960 --> 1:16:14.880 your wonderful mercy and be rescued by the Lord Jesus Christ, 1:16:15.120 --> 1:16:20.639 who is his only hope. So be it. 1:16:20.320 --> 1:16:23.200 It's beautiful, that's beautiful, So be it. 1:16:23.840 --> 1:16:25.479 Thanks, And I'm not I'm not going to say amen 1:16:25.520 --> 1:16:27.559 anymore because you called me, so be it. 1:16:27.960 --> 1:16:30.480 I'll occasionally look at when you say amen from the 1:16:30.520 --> 1:16:32.760 people know you're finished. It's a way of saying that. 1:16:32.840 --> 1:16:36.200 But but I don't ever say almost ever saying Jesus 1:16:36.240 --> 1:16:41.200 name amen, because praying in Jesus name doesn't mean saying 1:16:41.880 --> 1:16:44.559 in Jesus name. There's not a prayer in the New 1:16:44.600 --> 1:16:46.479 Testament that ever ends that way, and there's lots of 1:16:46.479 --> 1:16:50.120 prayers there. True, you know, it means the awareness that 1:16:50.160 --> 1:16:53.400 we go before the Father because Jesus has given us access, 1:16:53.560 --> 1:16:55.800 we're going in his name. As long as we have 1:16:55.840 --> 1:16:59.679 that awareness, we're fine. So I don't I just usually 1:16:59.760 --> 1:17:04.280 leave that behind, you know. And now I'm from the sixties, 1:17:04.320 --> 1:17:06.960 so instead of saying aimn, sometimes I might say right on, 1:17:07.320 --> 1:17:11.519 right on, Well, you. 1:17:11.560 --> 1:17:15.639 Have been so gracious with your time, and I appreciate 1:17:15.680 --> 1:17:17.240 you so much. I could probably listen for a couple 1:17:17.320 --> 1:17:18.919 more hours, just to listen to you talk. 1:17:18.760 --> 1:17:21.559 So I get talk for a couple of borrowers. Maybe 1:17:21.560 --> 1:17:22.679 we can do this another time. 1:17:22.960 --> 1:17:25.040 I wish I could be on Kirk Cameron's level where 1:17:25.040 --> 1:17:26.760 I could just send you birthday cards every year. 1:17:26.800 --> 1:17:29.479 But maybe I'll give to someow. 1:17:30.840 --> 1:17:33.240 He is a sweetheart. I don't get that for everybody. 1:17:33.280 --> 1:17:36.920 I don't even get that for my family, my old girls. 1:17:37.120 --> 1:17:38.120 But he hasn't done. 1:17:37.960 --> 1:17:38.519 That for a while. 1:17:38.560 --> 1:17:42.280 But it was just something he did and just just 1:17:42.320 --> 1:17:44.960 to encourage me as a brother, you know. And anyway, 1:17:45.640 --> 1:17:48.360 So I'm glad to have been here with you, Granger, 1:17:48.720 --> 1:17:51.920 and I am open to other conversations, so no worries. 1:17:52.000 --> 1:17:52.360 Excellent. 1:17:53.240 --> 1:17:56.240 Thanks for joining me on the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate 1:17:56.479 --> 1:17:58.479 all of you guys. You could help me out by 1:17:58.560 --> 1:18:02.400 rating these podcasts on tunes. If you're on YouTube, subscribe 1:18:02.400 --> 1:18:05.800 to this channel, hit that little like button and notification 1:18:05.920 --> 1:18:09.799 spell so that you never miss anytime I upload a video. 1:18:10.240 --> 1:18:10.519 Yigi