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Speaker 1: So you were just a single solo guy. As a

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Speaker 1: solo guy, yeah, okay, how long are you in the

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Speaker 1: industry performing and recording?

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Speaker 2: My first album was nineteen ninety nine, so.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, that's kind of a lot. And you

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Speaker 1: left what year?

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Speaker 3: My final tour was twenty twenty three. August of twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Okay, see, I like five years on the road and recording.

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Speaker 1: And did you become a Christian after that? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, in the midst of all that you

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Speaker 1: want a Christian when you started touring.

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Speaker 3: I thought I was. I was a cultural Christian. I

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Speaker 3: always thought, you know, grew up in a Christian home.

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Speaker 3: I'm from the Bible Belt, so always could have articulated

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Speaker 3: the Gospel and told you that I was a believer.

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Speaker 3: But it wasn't until later in my life when the

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Speaker 3: Lord radically converted me through tragedy, which which does happen

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Speaker 3: quite a bit. Tragedy and suffering will test of faith

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Speaker 3: and you can see the genuineness of that faith through

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Speaker 3: that suffering, and I didn't have any That's what I discovered.

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Speaker 3: And so when I became a Christian and then and

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Speaker 3: really started reading the Bible for the first time, and

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Speaker 3: not just as a devotional or as like an instruction

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Speaker 3: manual for my life, but actually unfolding the narrative of

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Speaker 3: God's people and what he has done, and who he

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Speaker 3: is and who we are in relation to who he is.

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Speaker 3: I started seeing some inconsistencies in my life, and part

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Speaker 3: of that was I'm a singer exalting myself every day,

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Speaker 3: and I don't know how that's reconciling with taking up

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Speaker 3: my cross.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well I think it. You can be a

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Speaker 1: performer and do a good job, but the mentality and

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Speaker 1: attitude is really hard to manage, you know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is something that people in my business have to

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Speaker 1: deal with. So trying to get better known and people

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Speaker 1: come up to you, and they even even Amy yesterday,

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Speaker 1: Amy Hall. So you know who Amy Hall is.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, So I'm not sure how fully you are

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Speaker 1: with Standard Reason. But we have two podcasts. We have

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Speaker 1: two hours a week to hours a week where I

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Speaker 1: do the podcast and we have two other separate twenty

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Speaker 1: five minute segments where Amy Hall on our team takes

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Speaker 1: questions that gets sent in and she asked me the questions,

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Speaker 1: I respond and then she adds brilliance to it. So

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Speaker 1: that's Amy. So Amy's got a cult following too, as

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Speaker 1: it turns out, of big fans that she's not even

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Speaker 1: aware of because she doesn't get out much. It's just

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Speaker 1: she does the radio stuff. But when she does show

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Speaker 1: up at events, people flock to her. Oh Amy kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. But anyway, Amy said, and our star Greg

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Speaker 1: cochol I said, Amy, don't even talk like that. I

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Speaker 1: said that out of the air because I don't want

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Speaker 1: people to I don't want to think of my stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. I don't want people to think of myself.

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Speaker 1: I'm just hey, I'm here as a brother in the Lord.

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Speaker 1: I'm offering something that may be useful, and you should

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Speaker 1: be doing the same kind of thing with other people

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Speaker 1: in your life. Okay, this is just what I do.

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Speaker 1: So we have to. I think all of us have

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Speaker 1: to be vigilant. So I think it's possible to be

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Speaker 1: really effective in the say, in the music business, but

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Speaker 1: it is very hard because so many people are genuflecting

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Speaker 1: to you, bowing down to you, saying all of these

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Speaker 1: wonderful things that may be true about your craft, but

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Speaker 1: people take them way too seriously. So I just saw

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Speaker 1: just a couple of days ago. Actually, on the way back.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how much time you have here, so

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Speaker 1: I want to be sensitive to that.

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Speaker 2: But go ahead, and I'm here to here. I'm here

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Speaker 2: to listen to you.

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Speaker 1: We're just kind of getting warmed up a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: I'll follow you wherever you want to go. It's all right,

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Speaker 1: it's your show. And I've heard here to help that out.

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Speaker 1: But but I watched a Complete Unknown on the flight

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Speaker 1: back from Dallas from uh from Nashville on Sunday night,

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Speaker 1: and that's about a Bob Dylan.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen this?

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Speaker 2: I have not seen it. I've heard about Okay, I.

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Speaker 1: Really enjoyed it. But I experienced this film on a

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Speaker 1: number of levels. Now, I was born in nineteen fifty

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Speaker 1: and so this is sixty to sixty five of Bob Dylan.

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Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with that time. That's when they had

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Speaker 1: the Cuban missile crisis in sixty two, that's when John

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Speaker 1: Kennedy was assassinated in sixty three, and they're showing this

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Speaker 1: new stuff in the background with Walter Cronkite Man. I

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Speaker 1: have a vivid memory of all of that stuff. And

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Speaker 1: I also have a memory of the burgeoning countercultural movement

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Speaker 1: that Bob Dylan was a significant part of. And so

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Speaker 1: it's very interesting to see. I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: follow his career at all, but it's really an amazing career.

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Speaker 1: And it may be that he's a Christian testimony now,

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Speaker 1: but he sure wasn't then he was a nobody. They

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Speaker 1: followed from when he's a nobody to when he's Probably

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Speaker 1: the argue with sixty five. Now this says the Beatles

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Speaker 1: had just just kind of began to penetrate a little

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Speaker 1: bit in sixty, say, sixty three and sixty four the

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Speaker 1: American population, and so they were big. But the It's

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Speaker 1: one didn't deal with any of that stuff. It dealt

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Speaker 1: with this burgeoning folk music kind of thing that he

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Speaker 1: was a part of, and he was like an unbelievable

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Speaker 1: superstar by sixty five starts at sixty sixty. But you

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Speaker 1: could see the corruption. Well, I want to be careful

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Speaker 1: wh I say this. There was it certainly had a

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Speaker 1: corruptic influence on his life, but he was already corrupted.

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Speaker 1: He was not a virtuous man. He was utterly selfish,

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Speaker 1: and self centered and self consumed. He did not care

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Speaker 1: about anyone's feelings about anything. All he cared about was himself.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if that's actually accurate characterization, but

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Speaker 1: this is a biopic that's done about the guy who's

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Speaker 1: still alive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I should say something about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems too he's in a place to say

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Speaker 1: that's not true about me or whatever, that didn't happen

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Speaker 1: that way or whatever. But anyway, those.

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Speaker 3: Are good characteristics to be a good popular singer. To

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Speaker 3: care only about yourself because you are the product.

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Speaker 1: See I wonder though if that's necessary. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's one thing too. I understand that you are the product, okay,

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Speaker 1: but how you how you characterize yourself as the product?

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Speaker 1: You can look at the proverb says, let another praise

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Speaker 1: you and not your own self. Okay, so don't praise yourself,

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Speaker 1: but let other people pray. Use as appropriate. But that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean you let it go to your head. And

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Speaker 1: now I'm not going to talk to people who are

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Speaker 1: beneath me. I'm gonna babb a boh this. Then there

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Speaker 1: are people in the business. I don't know about your business,

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Speaker 1: But who is the guy here, I'm trying to download names.

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Speaker 2: That's okay.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know Kirk Camera for example. He just lives

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Speaker 1: down the road and we get together from now and

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Speaker 1: we've known each other a long time. Kirk is a

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Speaker 1: true blue, absolutely down to earth, totally humble guy. But

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Speaker 1: he's you know, he's got he's got a great CV

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Speaker 1: in terms of his contribution. Now, people haven't noticed him

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Speaker 1: much lately. He does faith films and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: But then who's the other guy who is the great? Well,

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Speaker 1: I can say is like the kung fu guy with

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Speaker 1: the beard, and he had a TV show for a while.

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Speaker 1: He's very very accomplished martial arts guy. When martial arts

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Speaker 1: he made a movie with Bruce Lee and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of his name. He's an older

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Speaker 1: guy now, Zackie. No, no, no, this is a white guy.

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Speaker 1: So if I said a debut, do it. But I

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Speaker 1: saw him in the airport once, okay, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: talk to him, but some kids came up to him.

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Speaker 1: They recognized it because he had a TV show and uh, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: remember say but he is oh, he was great, you know,

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Speaker 1: no airs about him at all. He was just down

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Speaker 1: to earth kind of person. And so here's a guy

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Speaker 1: with a lot of fame, and yet he was a

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Speaker 1: very easygoing kind of person, very ordinary and very approachable.

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Speaker 1: There are people like that in the industry and they

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Speaker 1: don't let it go to their heads. So I think

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Speaker 1: it's possible to do that a certain field, certainly, but

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Speaker 1: it's hard.

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Speaker 3: So Kirk Kirk and I have actually had this conversation,

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Speaker 3: this very conversation, and he has he'll readily admit that

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Speaker 3: it's dangerous for him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, so we need to surround ourselves with people that

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Speaker 3: can buffer that protect us, give us some level of

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Speaker 3: protection by not just becoming yes men, uh, but but

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Speaker 3: men that are that could be around us and not

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Speaker 3: afraid to say I think you're wrong on that, buddy, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I don't think.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you're you're you're good here and and

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Speaker 3: and so Kirk it has told me that over the

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Speaker 3: years he's he has struggled because when people do praise you,

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Speaker 3: it's it's a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit of poison to you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you just got to be careful of it and mindful.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, Jesus, Jesus, people praise Jesus a lot too.

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Speaker 1: At least for the first staff of his ministry, you know.

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Speaker 1: But you know it's it's just got built in liabilities

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Speaker 1: and we have to be careful of and frankly, from

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Speaker 1: what I understand about the CCM industry, you know, most

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Speaker 1: people have not fared well in the midst of that.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's right, do you know Alisa Childers? Yes, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so I mean she says that is such a corrupt

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Speaker 1: industry on the Christian side, the CCM sign.

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Speaker 3: I know, we had an artist, a famous artists here

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Speaker 3: just the other day. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 3: do say I usually need to add this to my

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Speaker 3: story that it wasn't only the me to feel the

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Speaker 3: need to back away from the industry because of some

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Speaker 3: kind of.

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Speaker 2: Feeling of self exaltation. There was also, to.

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Speaker 3: The Lord's credit, he was reducing a passion that I

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Speaker 3: had for it and raising it in other areas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's great, that's really great. Well it made it easier, huh,

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Speaker 1: that's right. People have to make the hard choice. I

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Speaker 1: think Kirk might have an example. I mean, this guy

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Speaker 1: was at the was I mean, he's one of the

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Speaker 1: I don't know what they call him now, but like

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Speaker 1: he was one of those boy charmer types. You know,

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Speaker 1: he was on the face of the teen idol magazines

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Speaker 1: and whatever. But you know, I don't know they ever

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Speaker 1: lost his passion for what he was doing. But the

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Speaker 1: Lord got a wholettle bit of a good way. Is

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Speaker 1: his sister's still working a lot. You know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how that's working out for her, but but the

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear that you have somebody like Kirk

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Speaker 1: because I'm sure sure you'd agree with me. He's a

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Speaker 1: true blue. This guy is just fabulous, you know he is.

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Speaker 1: He for like for many years. On my birthday, get

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Speaker 1: a note from him just saying, Hey, I'm just I'm

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Speaker 1: just a guy, you know down the street. You know,

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Speaker 1: I got some things I do and he appreciates that.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't like I was, you know, he's kissing

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Speaker 1: up to me or anything. But he was just encouraging me.

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Speaker 1: So it was really sweet.

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Speaker 2: That's wonderful.

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Speaker 3: Well you're I'm not I'm not sure if it was

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Speaker 3: your secretary or who who we reached out to to

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Speaker 3: set this up.

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Speaker 1: Darcy. Darcy, Yeah, we don't have secretary, okay. Colleagues and co.

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Speaker 3: Workers, Colleagues and co workers, Darcy said respectfully. Darcy said,

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Speaker 3: may I ask why you would like to speak with

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Speaker 3: Greg in this podcast? And I think that was a

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Speaker 3: great question, and I think part of it, there's evidence

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Speaker 3: in what we've talked about so far that that was

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Speaker 3: a valid question.

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Speaker 2: So maybe I should tell you how I know you? Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 3: I was in a couple of years ago in a

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Speaker 3: seminary class and doctor Timothy Booker do you know you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know him.

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Speaker 2: It's southern. Oh yeah, in Louisville, Yes, in Louisville, Louisville,

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Speaker 2: and so mixed up.

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Speaker 3: This was a personal evangelism class. We get assigned, you know,

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Speaker 3: the pile of books, as as every class assigns, and

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Speaker 3: then there's there was this one in that pile and

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Speaker 3: I started going through this and I just became so

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Speaker 3: fascinated by you in your ministry. And like I said,

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Speaker 3: this was a couple of years ago, so perhaps I'm

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Speaker 3: late on this interview. But as we started putting together

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Speaker 3: a list of who I would like to talk to,

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Speaker 3: I just thought if I could talk to Greg Cochle,

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Speaker 3: that would be fantastic. And I don't really care if

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Speaker 3: we release it or not. I would just like to

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Speaker 3: have a conversation.

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Speaker 1: And I'm easy, you know, I'm not like it's just

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Speaker 1: schedule concerns, that's all. But I'm you know, I talked

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Speaker 1: to lots of folk. Actually, there's a gal all right

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Speaker 1: in Nashville. You might know her dad. Her name is

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Speaker 1: Ava Cook, I think Abra Cochrane, and her dad is

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Speaker 1: named dot Dan and he's a young guy. Yeah do

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Speaker 1: you know that name?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I do.

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Speaker 1: Oh, okay, Well she's like, well when she interviewed me,

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Speaker 1: she was probably fourteen. She was fourteen years old. She's

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Speaker 1: got her own podcas us and everything. You know, she's

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Speaker 1: probably seventeen now. But my view was, all right, if

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Speaker 1: I can have an impact through her or even if

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Speaker 1: it's a small audience, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Happy for that.

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Speaker 1: Plus I wanted to I wanted to encourage her as

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Speaker 1: as a person who's doing something unique. And you know

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Speaker 1: how many fourteen year olds do that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: There's a few, but not many, and so so that's

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's my general view is, like, like I said,

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Speaker 1: I'm not hard to get. I'm glad to be here

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Speaker 1: with you. And as long as the schedule stuff works

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Speaker 1: out for me, you know, and I can make a contribution,

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Speaker 1: be an encouragement to you. Look at the way I

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Speaker 1: look at it, Granger, If if we if we never

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Speaker 1: do the podcast after our conversation here, my trust is

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Speaker 1: that God is going to will have made a contribution

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Speaker 1: in your life that's that's useful and will be durable.

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Speaker 1: I mean, And that's what time I'll spend this for us.

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Speaker 1: If that's all we get out of.

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Speaker 3: This, and then well, what really the way if you

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Speaker 3: could imagine there's a lot of country music people that

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Speaker 3: kind of have bled over into this and to this

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Speaker 3: program now, and so I find a unique opportunity now

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Speaker 3: to collect things like your book Tactics, to collect people

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Speaker 3: like Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort and Frank Turk, and

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Speaker 3: collect these guys and put them on a on a

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Speaker 3: platform of people, perhaps even a younger generation that goes

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Speaker 3: I don't know Ray Comfort, I don't know Frank Turk

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Speaker 3: or Greg Cochele.

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Speaker 2: Who are they?

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Speaker 3: And so then I say, well, let me provide a

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Speaker 3: special window into something that I've loved for a long time,

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Speaker 3: and let me have some some discussions that that might

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Speaker 3: open up a door to someone else.

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Speaker 2: As you said that the Lord could use.

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Speaker 3: When did you first realize that you had a gifting

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Speaker 3: in apologetics?

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Speaker 1: Do you want to start rolling and this will be

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Speaker 1: part of the interview or.

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Speaker 2: Would you be would you be mad at me if

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Speaker 2: I told you we've been rolling since we.

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Speaker 1: Started talk all, you can use whatever you want, so

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Speaker 1: and edit if you want. I mean, there's nothing I've

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Speaker 1: said that you know it's discreditable. Anyway, I was going

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Speaker 1: to ask you that the end, okay, when the warning

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Speaker 1: would have been good at the beginning, because sometimes I'm

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Speaker 1: a bit earthy, Let's put it that way. The way

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Speaker 1: the question was when did I when.

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Speaker 3: Did you realize you had a gifting and apologetics in

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Speaker 3: Christian apologetics?

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Speaker 1: Well, actually, I would not look at it that way. Wait, Grader,

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Speaker 1: I began developing an interest in it very early on.

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Speaker 1: And because now I'm almost fifty two years in christ

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Speaker 1: even though I became a Christian as a young adult

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three, so it was twenty three years old,

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Speaker 1: I realized, well, first of all, I did not become

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Speaker 1: a Christian in this influence in the same way like

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Speaker 1: some of my colleagues. So you got a least trouble

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Speaker 1: for example, Well, apologetics were a huge factory and is

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Speaker 1: coming to Christ. You mentioned Frank. I think that might

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Speaker 1: have been the case with Frank Turick as well, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who do what I do. They

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Speaker 1: had apologetics as a launching pad for their own convictions

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Speaker 1: about Christ, and so it was natural for them to

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Speaker 1: keep going. That is not the case for me. All

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Speaker 1: I can say is the I mean, it's very unglamorous,

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Speaker 1: but I just came to a realization over time that

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Speaker 1: Christianity was true. So I guess, you know, this is

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Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit obviously has to work in everybody. But

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Speaker 1: this is just the way it happened. And my younger

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Speaker 1: brother Mark had been the one who is sharing Christ

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Speaker 1: more with me. I had run into a lot of

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Speaker 1: Christians prior to that time. You know, I went to

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Speaker 1: Michigan State University for a few years seventy to seventy two.

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Speaker 1: You know, spring break, you want to get out of

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Speaker 1: the gloam of Michigan and so down you go to

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Speaker 1: Fort Lauderdale or Daytona Beech or whatever and have fun.

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Speaker 1: And there's always these annoying Christians that are trying to

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Speaker 1: spoil your right and they're you know, talking about this

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Speaker 1: and so I was willing to engage them because I

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Speaker 1: thought they were nuts. I was raised Roman Catholic, but

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Speaker 1: by the time I was eighteen, I was done with that.

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Speaker 1: You know, I had no conviction was actually true. And

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Speaker 1: when I realized it was wasn't true. Why should I

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Speaker 1: believe that? I'm off? And I thought, by the way,

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Speaker 1: that I had tried Christianity, Oh yeah, been there, done that,

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Speaker 1: But I hadn't obviously, and at least my own experience

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Speaker 1: with Catholicism, which by the way, was pre Vatican two,

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Speaker 1: so our advances were still Latin, and Vatican two moved

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Speaker 1: Catholicism in a whole different direction that I don't think

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Speaker 1: has been good. That's another discussion. But I'm not making

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Speaker 1: a sweeping statement about Catholics and their convictions. I'm just saying,

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Speaker 1: in my case, I blew this off. I don't want that, Ben,

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Speaker 1: They're done that. And I was embracing the world. And

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Speaker 1: this was nineteen sixty eight, was when I graduate high school.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you that there was the Beatles, there was

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Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones, there was the anti war movement, there

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Speaker 1: was free love. There was everything exploding on the scene,

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Speaker 1: which was absolutely fascinating to a young man like myself

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Speaker 1: who had just kind of thrown off the shackles of

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Speaker 1: religion and I'm embracing a whole the world in a

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Speaker 1: new way. And this is one of the things that

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Speaker 1: really touched me by watching this biopic on Bill Bobby Dylan,

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Speaker 1: because as we're trafficking through sixty to sixty five, the

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Speaker 1: period of that film, I'm listening to all this music

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Speaker 1: that was not only familiar to me, but the words mattered,

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Speaker 1: you know, the words mattered, you know, like a rolling stone,

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Speaker 1: you know, with no direction home, you know, a complete unknown.

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Speaker 1: Well that when you read all the lyrics of that song,

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Speaker 1: he was kind of saying, this is a dismal life.

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Speaker 1: But for me, that line just stood out. I didn't

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Speaker 1: wasn't paying attention to everything. You just picked that. Yeah

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Speaker 1: that's me, man, I'm a rolling stone. I got no direction,

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Speaker 1: nobody's telling me what to do. I'm not going home.

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Speaker 1: I had a bad relation with my dad. I'm gone

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Speaker 1: and that was very liberating. And so when I'm listening

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Speaker 1: to this, I was getting very emotional watching the movie.

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Speaker 1: I did actually a number of times, but part of

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Speaker 1: it was this identification with this period where I was

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Speaker 1: going through this stuff. So that was a big deal,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't until years later, So that was sixty eight.

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Speaker 1: By the time nineteen seventy three, my younger brother had

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Speaker 1: become a Christian and he was talking to me more

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Speaker 1: about Jesus. Now that's a more personal relationship, and I

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Speaker 1: kind of shined him on. He was more of the job.

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Speaker 1: We were all in athletics, but he was the real

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Speaker 1: accomplished jock, you know. And I thought, Okay, he needs that.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I was the only child of five that

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Speaker 1: went to university and I was an honors college at

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Speaker 1: Missigan State. Blah blah blah. I'm too smart for that,

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Speaker 1: that was my thinking. Yeah, but we were both in

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Speaker 1: southern California in nineteen seventy three for different reasons. But

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Speaker 1: he really honed in on me, And all I can

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Speaker 1: say is that I just got warned out by the

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Speaker 1: message that he was offering with no apologetics. He really

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Speaker 1: loved me, he was He told me, wants Greg the

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Speaker 1: things that I'm telling you are true. One day you're

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Speaker 1: going to find this out. I hope that when you do,

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Speaker 1: it's not too late. Notice that was a very straightforward,

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Speaker 1: honest statement, and the kind of statement. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people aren't willing to say nowadays because they kind of

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Speaker 1: gussie all this up and with God being, oh, he

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Speaker 1: loves you, You're wonderful, blah blah blah. You know, it's,

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Speaker 1: by the way, just a point of information. There's fourteen

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Speaker 1: times the Gospel is preached in the Book of Acts,

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Speaker 1: and not a single time is the love of God mentioned.

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Speaker 1: These were the people who were trained by Jesus. By

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Speaker 1: the way, their message is different. You want to know

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Speaker 1: what the message is than all your viewers whatever, can

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Speaker 1: go back and check it out. But that's what I did.

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Speaker 1: I isolated all these passages. I wanted to see what

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Speaker 1: the message was.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, I say these things, and you know,

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Speaker 3: people get mad, but I'm letting you say it is great.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: You give me a lot of latitude, you give me

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Speaker 1: a rope to hang myself.

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Speaker 2: No, that's okay.

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Speaker 1: I mean to get now quickly to the to the point.

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Speaker 1: After I became a Christian, I didn't have any of

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and I had all kinds of questions that

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Speaker 1: still need to answer. I was still pro abortion, a

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Speaker 1: still pro evolution in the Darwinian sense. I was still

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Speaker 1: let's see, you know, pre metal sex, I didn't work

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Speaker 1: that thing out, you know all, and there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff that but I was convinced that Jesus

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Speaker 1: was the Savior and the grace of God was real,

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Speaker 1: and I was now a recipient of the grace of God,

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Speaker 1: and that changed everything, and so the other things. My

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Speaker 1: statement is that you know, God catches this fish first

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Speaker 1: and then he cleans them, you know, And I think

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Speaker 1: that's an actually theologically accurate way of looking at it.

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Speaker 1: And it was afterwards. I still had my own questions,

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Speaker 1: and I'm in I mean U c l A. And

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Speaker 1: I've got people on the streets of Westwood Village and

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Speaker 1: there are all kinds of religious trips being peddled at

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Speaker 1: that time, and I want to tell them about Jesus,

435
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 1: and I have nothing to say in response to all

436
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 1: of the challenges they offer me. So very quickly I

437
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 1: got involved in a Christian community that I moved into

438
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: four months after I became a Christian, maybe five and

439
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 1: February first of seventy four. And I stayed there for

440
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 1: two and a half years, and I got lots of

441
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: training and teaching from guys that had been with the

442
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 1: campus crusade for many years, and they all got mad

443
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 1: at Dick da I'm sorry at Bill Bright at the

444
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 1: same time, and they left and they started this Christian community.

445
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 1: I mentioned the name Dick Day. He was one of

446
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: the teachers there, and he had disciple Josh mcdell, and

447
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: they all had DTS education Dallas Theological Seminary. So I

448
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: kind of fell into this incredible environment where I had

449
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: Christian community, lots of Christians around me, we all Jesus freaks,

450
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: and nevertheless, we had people with street experience and evangelism

451
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 1: and good solid theology that were there teaching us and

452
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: training us on a regular basis in that school. And

453
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: it was called the Jesus Christ Light and Powerhouse. Sounds

454
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: kind of corny, but it was great. How I set

455
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: a trajectory for my life. Anyway, I've taken up too

456
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: much time. Granger with that along answer.

457
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 3: I asked you to talk here. People are used to

458
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 3: hearing me talk. This is wonderful. Yeah, So what I'm hearing.

459
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 3: Part of what I'm hearing in this is that you

460
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 3: took the time, as Paul did, as the apostle Paul did,

461
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: to get educated, to be bored into before you came

462
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 3: out and were and were shaking up the world with

463
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 3: books like Taxis.

464
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: Yeah that that first came out in two thousand and nine.

465
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

466
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: Long, So what was I that's seventy three, eighty three,

467
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: ninety three, two thousand and three, that I was thirty

468
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: thirty five years old Christ before I wrote that book,

469
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: thirty five years of speaking on university campuses and doing radio. Well,

470
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: I hadn't been doing radio only ten years at that point,

471
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 1: no more like twenty years. In any event, there was

472
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: lots of time that I had logged, and all of

473
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: the things that are in that book Tactics were things

474
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: that developed. It crystallized in my mind over time. I

475
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 1: began doing this and that and the other thing, and

476
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: oh wait that doesn't work well, how about this? And

477
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: reflecting on these things. And I was also I already

478
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: had a master's de gaate apologetics. I was ten, like

479
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, I was like fifteen years actually,

480
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: I completed my master's degree in philosophy under JP Moorland.

481
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 1: And so I had a lot of different stuff that

482
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: I'd been building up. Kind of being a student of

483
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: my craft is the way I usually put it. That

484
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: then all kind of came together in this book in

485
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, and then I expanded on it

486
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: thirty five percent in the ten year anniversary edition, which

487
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: is the one you flashed right, Yeah, got the red

488
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: thing at the top.

489
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

490
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 3: So you had many tools in your barn or your toolkit,

491
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 3: and many teachers too great and many teachers are so important.

492
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that were so helpful. I drew from lots of

493
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: different people that were either mentors of mine close by

494
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: or mentors at a distance.

495
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: That's one. Yeah, wonderful.

496
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: And when was it that you developed this idea of

497
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 3: the I don't know how you say it, the impossible question,

498
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 3: the unanswerable question, and that is, oh are you telling.

499
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: Me the one that's online?

500
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 3: If I don't believe the way you believe, Yeah, then

501
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 3: I'm going to help.

502
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: Well, you know, that was put to me by d

503
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: Pak Chilpra, who is probably the most well known New

504
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: Age guru in the world. I mean, he's one of

505
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: the few people who are recognized by his first name

506
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: only Dpak, you know. And I think that interview happened

507
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: in like two thousand, Well it's before the book came out,

508
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: maybe two thousand and eight, because Les Strobel, who sponsored

509
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: that event, then wanted to write the introduction to to Tactics,

510
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: and that's when he hit me with that question, and

511
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: so I use that kind of as a foil his statement.

512
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: But of course it's come up before and when people

513
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: it's like, it's the way they ask the question. If

514
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: I don't believe just like you do, then you're saying

515
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to hell. Well, it's a very manipulative way

516
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: to ask the question because it makes it sound like

517
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: you're so egotistical. People have to believe just like you

518
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: or they're going to be punished, and you're happy they're

519
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: going to be punished because they're not agreeing with you.

520
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: And so this is a question that has to be

521
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: handled carefully. And I have been asked versions of that

522
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: in a number of different ways. And in that little

523
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: clip that you are making reference to that standard reason

524
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: is put online, I explain the best way around that.

525
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: I can't remember all the details of what I said

526
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: way back when when that was up there, but it's

527
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: basically the way I approach it. Actually a dpak what

528
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: I said to him, because now we're on TV okay,

529
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: and you've got to really manage your time, well, in

530
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: a situation like that, and I deflected it. In his case,

531
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: he asked the question, but I deflected it. I said, no,

532
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 1: that's not what I'm saying, because I wasn't saying. If

533
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: everybody believes doesn't believe, just like I believe, you know what,

534
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: that covers a lot of ground. Right, They're going to hell,

535
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: all right, Nobody goes to hell, even if you just

536
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: isolated to the issue of Jesus. Nobody goes to hell

537
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: because I don't believe in Jesus, not a single person.

538
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: The criterion for judgment is right there in Revelation twenty.

539
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: The books are open and everyone is judged according to

540
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: their deeds. They're not judged as to whether Jesus saved

541
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: them or not. So Jesus is the doctor. He's not

542
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: the disease. He's not the thing that kills people. Okay,

543
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,719
Speaker 1: it's kind of like some you look at a tombstone

544
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: that says cause of death, stupidity. He didn't go to

545
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: the doctor. You know, well, the doctor might have saved him,

546
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: but the doctor didn't kill him. Right, it's the disease

547
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: that killed him or not going to the doctor didn't

548
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: kill him. And in the same way. The point here

549
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: is is that everyone, let me look at I'll put

550
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: it this way if I have a second in this

551
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: because I was asked this question by Dennis Prager, who

552
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: maybe a lot of your listeners know, and I'm known

553
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: for forty years. And he had me in a Q

554
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: and a session. He's Jewish, and he had me in

555
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: a Q and a session with probably three or four

556
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: hundred Jews, and he asked me the question is we talk?

557
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: He knew my answer, but he's trying to be a

558
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: foil for the conversation with the Jewish audience. He said,

559
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: ask me if Jesus is the only way of salvation

560
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: and believing in him. Well, here's all these Jews that

561
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: don't believe in Jesus. So and I told him this.

562
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: So they just said, yes, you get the wrong impression.

563
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: It'll sound anti Semitic, which, by the way, when people

564
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: ask this question, it's meant to make the Christian look foolish.

565
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: Yes, okay.

566
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: And so what I said is, so let me explain it.

567
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: I said, people think that, you know, God looks down

568
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: on the world and sees all these religious clubs, and

569
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: he plays favorites. I mean, this is the way it

570
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: sounds to some people who are exclusivistic. He plays favorites,

571
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: and for a long time the Jews were his favorites.

572
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: Then he got really mad at the Jews. Now the

573
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: Christians are his favorites, and to hell with everyone else. Yeah,

574
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: kind of quite literally, I said, that's not the way

575
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: it happens. God is not looking at religious clubs. He's

576
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: looking at a world of human beings that he longs

577
00:29:58,520 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: to be in relationship with.

578
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: The is.

579
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: They've rebelled against him, every single one. Yes, now this

580
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: is a problem. Now they're guilty for rebelling against the

581
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: sovereign of the universe. They've broken his laws countless times

582
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: every day. So now what So he offers a pardon

583
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: if you take the pardon on the grounds that he

584
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: offers it Jesus who paid the penalty in our place

585
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: and a Jewish audience, they said, much like you would

586
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: sacrifice bulls and goats to cover the sin of the people,

587
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: in the same way, Jesus now covers the sin of

588
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: those who put their confidence in him. Now, if you

589
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: don't do that, all right, you're on your own. You

590
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: stand in the docket, and you have to give an

591
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: accounting for your life such as it is, and you

592
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: will be punished for all the crimes that you committed

593
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: against God. By the way, that won't be a pretty picture.

594
00:30:58,960 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: I won't.

595
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: And the good things you do that doesn't work. You

596
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: can't balance those out. For one, they won't balance out.

597
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: You're always going to lose on that assessment, and secondly

598
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: on God's criteria of sin all right. And secondly, even

599
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: even in our Jewish jurisprudence system here, you can't just

600
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: you know, keep all the laws and be really good citizen.

601
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: And the DA gives sins. And anoying said, hey, you

602
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: haven't broken any laws. Why don't you knock off a

603
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: few gas stations on us because you've got credit in

604
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: your account.

605
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: You know.

606
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: Now the law requires to keep them all, and you

607
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: keep mall except for one, then you're guilty.

608
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

609
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: No, I mean that's the way law works. So that's

610
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: not going to help. And I said, so here's the

611
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: simple calculus. Either Jesus pays or you pay. Either Jesus

612
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: pays or you pay. So it's up to you. Forget

613
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: about Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and all that other stuff. We

614
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: all know we're broken. We all know we're guilty, and

615
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: you guys all know there's God who is just and

616
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: will have justice upon those who deserve it. This is

617
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: not good news.

618
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 3: If you need to get a hold of me for

619
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: any reason, go to cameo dot com slash Granger Smith.

620
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 3: In fact, I just literally got a message from Cameo

621
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: that says a guy named Ian now has a request

622
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 3: for me. So what I do is I open this

623
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 3: up and I go check out what Ian wants me

624
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 3: to say for him, and for this it is a

625
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 3: happy birthday to Melinda. So I will reach out to Melinda.

626
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 3: I say happy birthday. It's Granger Smith here. I hope

627
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 3: you have an amazing day. And I'm gonna tell her

628
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 3: what else that I have here on the little list

629
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: that Ian has given me. And then I send it

630
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: back to him and then he has a video message

631
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: from me that then goes out to Melinda. It's really cool,

632
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 3: it's super easy. I've been doing this for about six

633
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 3: years now. So if you want to find me and

634
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 3: get a special video message of any kind, go to

635
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 3: a cameo dot com slash Granger Smith.

636
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: So that was essentially the message that A communicated to

637
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: that particular group. But it is really the core of

638
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: the way I talk to anybody who raises this question

639
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: that stops Christians in their tracks because they don't know

640
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: how to characterize it. They come up with slogans, Oh,

641
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: Jesus is the only way he died for our sins.

642
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: Of course that's all true, but it doesn't register with people.

643
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: They don't. We have to try to say it in

644
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: a way that makes sense to them. I felt like

645
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: the explanation I gave to that Jewish audience, it'll lead.

646
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: At least it was coherent, you know, they could make

647
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: sense to the point I was making. Now, may not

648
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: accept it. I suspect most didn't. But nevertheless, if you

649
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: look at the parable of the sower in Mark thirteen,

650
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: where Jesus explains the parable to the disciples, he mentions

651
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: the first ground, which is hard ground on the seed

652
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: is thrown on it and the birds take it away,

653
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: and he says, this is the devil taking the seeds away.

654
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: And I always thought, well, that's the hard headed people

655
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: that it just bounces off, and a lot of those

656
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: that's not the way Jesus put it. What Jesus says

657
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: there in Matthew thirteen is he says, this is the

658
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: people who hear the word and do not understand it,

659
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: and then the devil takes out what has been sewn

660
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: in their heart is what he says. It's getting in

661
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: there makes no sense to them. It's gone, and so

662
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: we have to talk in a way that at least

663
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: makes sense to people. They can't reject something they don't understand,

664
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: not in a meaningful way. They still will be judged

665
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 1: for the rebellion. But when we bring an antidote, just

666
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: like if a doctor brings an antidote to you, if

667
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: they don't understand, if you don't understand what he's talking

668
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 1: about or how to apply the antidote, you're not going

669
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: to do it anyway. So there you go.

670
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: So let me ask you something that where do we

671
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 3: reconcile this idea with In Acts twenty, Paul is calling

672
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 3: for the Ephesian elders right to him.

673
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 2: This is before he goes.

674
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 3: To Jerusalem, and you know he's got his trial ahead

675
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: of him. The Efesian elders know that this is the

676
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 3: last time they're going to be with their beloved Paul,

677
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 3: and he tells them in his short time. There is

678
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 3: the account that Luke gives us. He tells them, I

679
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 3: am innocent of the blood of all because I did

680
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 3: not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

681
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 3: Right that, by implication would mean that there is such

682
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 3: a thing as a half council or a quarter council.

683
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 3: What are you saying when? What are you thinking of?

684
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 3: When Paul's talking about the whole council? Where's the danger

685
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 3: of delivering a half council?

686
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: Does that make sense? Yeah?

687
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: It does, But we have I know this passage well.

688
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: In fact, I read it last week. I just finished

689
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: the book I Acts a couple of days ago. It

690
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: just happened to be in my reading. And boy, isn't

691
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: it Isn't that the case if you're concern and you're

692
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: reading through scripture, it just so happens that something you

693
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: just read pops up as an issue and need to

694
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: be described. Okay, And I I think that Paul is

695
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: not talking there about a culpability before God with regards

696
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: to this stuff, like if I don't share my whatever

697
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: with certain people, then I am going to be guilty

698
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: before God. And so it's either guilt or innocence. I

699
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: shared everything, so I'm not guilty before God. I think

700
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: I think that what's going on there.

701
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 3: Yes, and I recoonize we're talking about two different things.

702
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 3: When we're talking about we just got through talking about

703
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: the judgment of God. This is we're not talking about

704
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 3: the same the same subject. So I'll just I'll say

705
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 3: that here, Okay.

706
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: I think that yeah, fair enough, Okay, as long as

707
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 1: that that's the distinction is made. Some people might read

708
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: that and say, well, okay, now I'm guilty if I correct,

709
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 1: and I am culpable before God. Now. But I think

710
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: if you remember the history with the Aphesians, he spent

711
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: two years in Ephesus. That's one of the reasons those

712
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: relationships are so strong. And when they're they meet at

713
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: the beach and he says, I'm not going to see anymore,

714
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 1: and boy, they are really anguished about it. But he

715
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: says the time will come when vicious wolves will ravage

716
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: the flock. And what he's saying is, before you, I

717
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: have told you everything you need to know. I have

718
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: given you the full council of God. Now that isn't true.

719
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: And a whole bunch of other cities he went to.

720
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: He didn't have time to do that. But with the Ephesians.

721
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 1: He did. He spent about two years in the school

722
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: of Haranus or whatever he said there and had a

723
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: long time with them, working with them. It is a

724
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: very spiritually mature group of Christians, and so I think

725
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: that statement applies to that group. I've done what was

726
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: necessary to protect you. I can't be called to account

727
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 1: for not having given this to you. But as it

728
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: turns out, there are lots of other places he didn't

729
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: spend much time in at all, and he had to

730
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: send Timothy and Titus at other times to choose elders

731
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: for those fledgling flocks. He didn't have time to do

732
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: the whole council of God. So I think that this

733
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: responsibility to give the full counsel of God is a

734
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: long term goal that we ought to have as Christian

735
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: workers and leaders, if you will. Pastors, however, to keep

736
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: communicating to various groups all the things that are important,

737
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: and some people you get a lot more time with.

738
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: So I have my own team, I call it. I

739
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: have twenty people on my staff. Nineteen and four others

740
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 1: of them or five one, two, three four five others

741
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: right now are content providers. I have spent a lot

742
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: of time with them personally out to dinner at events.

743
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: We do regular interactive things online now because we can

744
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: do this kind of thing a lot more access, even

745
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: though they're spread out now around the country. And I

746
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: could say, in some cases it's been twenty years or

747
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: nineteen years or fifteen years or whatever. This this group,

748
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: I call them my young guns. I'm the old gun.

749
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: And I can say to them, I gave you the

750
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: full counsel of God because I had the opportunity to

751
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: do so, and I was intentionally investing myself in lots

752
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: of different ways into their lives all right.

753
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: Now.

754
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: I couldn't say that about you, Granger. You know, I

755
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: know you listen to some of the things that standard

756
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: reason to read the book. I've offered you something, and

757
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: it's true with a lot of people. But those guys,

758
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: my young guns, are capable now of protecting the flock

759
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: that is is in their charge, Amen giving them the

760
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: whole counsul. So I think that's it's not so much

761
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: he's saying I'm innocent before God. I think he's saying

762
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: with you guys, I'm innocent before you guys.

763
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I read it's the same.

764
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 3: I think you're absolutely right and the what ends up

765
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: happening in ephesis is that wolves do come, and and

766
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 3: not only from the outside, from the inside.

767
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 2: Is the the scary part.

768
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 3: And what a what a comfort to know that you

769
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 3: are You are a minister that is so diligent in this,

770
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 3: not only in your team and your your ministry and

771
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 3: your equipping, but also in your personal devotion. You just

772
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 3: mentioned you finished Acts a few days ago. It wouldn't hard,

773
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 3: it wouldn't be hard to understand that you've gone through

774
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 3: Acts hundreds and hundreds of times.

775
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: In your in your life.

776
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 3: But but but it's still it's still not enough. You

777
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 3: will do that continually till you have.

778
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: Well, let me say something about that because this might

779
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: be helpful to viewers, and that is I have people

780
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: ask me about techniques of Bible study, techniques of prayer.

781
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,280
Speaker 1: I know about Bible study. That I do about prayer.

782
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: Prayers almost a complete mystery to me. I do not

783
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: understand what might be called the calculus of prayer. And

784
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: Lewis made a point, look at you're not dealing with

785
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: a machine. You're dealing with a person, and so persons

786
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: can say yes, no, maybe, so whatever you know, so

787
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: you can't really maybe calculus isn't the right word to

788
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,959
Speaker 1: use in a very precise sense, but generally speaking, Gee,

789
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: how many prayers do you have to pray? How do

790
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: you pray? This is hard for me, and I have

791
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 1: books on prayer that are helpful, but I came down

792
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: to this one simple thing. Okay, here's the first rule

793
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: of prayer, s granger, pray, the first rule of prayers.

794
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: Pray.

795
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: You learn how to pray by praying. And if you

796
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: don't understand anything else, and you can't forget, how I

797
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: just pray? You have not because you ask not knock, seek,

798
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: not ask, seek knock. You know kind of thing, stay

799
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: at it. Just keep doing it even if you're confused.

800
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: Okay.

801
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: And the first rule of Bible is to read. You know,

802
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: you can get all kinds of commentaries and get all

803
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: this set up and have all these systems, but lots

804
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: of times you don't time for the systems. You still

805
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: have time to read. Look, here's there's some things you

806
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: cannot do tomorrow. You cannot pray today's prayer tomorrow. You

807
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: can only pray tomorrow's prayers tomorrow. You cannot read today's

808
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: Bible tomorrow. That's tomorrow's Bible. You can only read today's

809
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: Bible today. Now sometimes you miss it. You know, I'm traveling,

810
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: I get up and the you know, I get that.

811
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 1: But I do have a commitment though I've read through

812
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: the Bible a number of times over the up until

813
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: that's about twenty four twenty five years as a Christian.

814
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: But I camped a lot in passages that I like

815
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: the best. I like Proverbs, I like the New Testament.

816
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: And then I was challenged by Jay Warner Wallace. He

817
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: was doing an event for us, and he was using

818
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: his cold case illustrations. But basically he says, you ought

819
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: to start at the beginning and read to the end,

820
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: and when you're done, start at the beginning and read

821
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: to the end. And when you're done, start at the

822
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: beginning and read to the end and never stop your

823
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: whole life. And so the way, And I've explained this

824
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: to my own listeners. How I just have it's over

825
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: there in my Bible, which you can't read from here.

826
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: But I have a Bible in a year kind of

827
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: thing when you check off the chapters and stuff, and

828
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: sometimes it's two or three chapters and only read one chapter.

829
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: So I just make a notation there. But my goal

830
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 1: is to work through that whole thing, and I don't

831
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: care about the year part takes me three to four years.

832
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: What I care about is continuing to read through the

833
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: material so that I read the whole thing, and then

834
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: I get a new thing I printed out, I start

835
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: all over. And what this ensures, and this goes back

836
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: to your comment about the Ephesian elders, it ensures that

837
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 1: I am exposed to the full council of God. And

838
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: it's nothing tricky, nothing fancy, no pressure. You know, if

839
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: I don't read three chapters, I mean, some people do

840
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: a Bible in the year and by February they're done

841
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: because they're too far behind and they can't catch up. Well,

842
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: don't worry about the year part. Just keep reading at

843
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: your own pace. Make it a regular Usually it's a

844
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: chapter a day for me. And if I don't do

845
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: it in the morning because I'm traveling whatever, Usually when

846
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: I go to bed at night, before I turn in,

847
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: I'm reading something. I'll read a psalm, I'll read a

848
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: pop I'm working through the psalms and proverbs in my

849
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: own home. When I'm on the road, I might look

850
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: something else up and read a little section, but I

851
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: just want that all just getting into me, even if

852
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: I'm not particularly reflective on it, and there is a

853
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,280
Speaker 1: sense of the more you do this well, John MacArthur

854
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: said long ago, you want to read the Bible so

855
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: much that your blood is bibi. I thought that was

856
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: pretty clever.

857
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: I think that was very clever.

858
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: So what this represents for me, you know, I'm busy

859
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: and everybody's busy, right is we find a way we're

860
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: not too busy to eat. Yea, we find a way

861
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: to you know, bolt something, sit down, maybe have a

862
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: longer bial a lot of time, quicker or whatever. I've

863
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: got some protein drink in the back I got to

864
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 1: grab before this is over.

865
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 2: But the.

866
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: The same thing is true with our spiritual nourishment. It

867
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be complicated. We have to have a

868
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: banquet every time we sit down. Just keep eating a

869
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 1: little here, a little there, a little here, a little there,

870
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: and keep praying, keep eating with feeding, with the word

871
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: and praying.

872
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 3: And to that analogy, if man can't live on bread alone,

873
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 3: but from every word that comes mouth, goba, I don't

874
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:02,959
Speaker 3: think we should skip. If we don't skip a meal,

875
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 3: we probably shouldn't skip that feast either.

876
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

877
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I try to regulate or taylor my own

878
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: consistent feeding to troublesome schedules. But I don't say, okay,

879
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 1: next week, next month. You know. It's like, by the

880
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: way we're working out, you can't do today's work out tomorrow.

881
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 1: That's right, do it today. Tomorrow's workout has his own.

882
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: So anyway, maybe that's helpful.

883
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 3: That's very helpful, And you've been so gracious with your time.

884
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 3: I would be remiss if I didn't ask you, if

885
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 3: you maybe I should say it this way. I'm probably

886
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 3: the last generation that watched the show Colombo. Did you

887
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 3: watch an Yeah? Okay, okay. So my producer sitting in here,

888
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 3: he says he doesn't know Colombo. Yeah, okay, he knows it,

889
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 3: but he didn't watch it. So explain to us Colombo

890
00:46:58,239 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 3: and how this relates to any of this.

891
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: All right, Well, now we're zooming into the area that

892
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: the book covers, and it has to do with evangelism

893
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: and how do we traffic in evangelism successfully in a

894
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: culture that's largely really mad at Christians who are genuine

895
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: followers of Jesus an important qualifier. I don't know if

896
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: you know this stranger but something like sixty five percent

897
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: of the people in this country self identify as Christians.

898
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: Now you know that is I mean, in theological terms,

899
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: that's nonsense. I'm not putting down their own thoughts or

900
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: beliefs about themselves. I'm just saying Christianity is something very particular.

901
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: And if you are a follower of Jesus, remember the

902
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 1: Christians were the disciples, were first called Christians and Antioch.

903
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: That means Christians are disciples, at least that's the original sense.

904
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: Followers of jeswis discipline, followers of Jesus. That means there's

905
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,439
Speaker 1: a certain set of things, they believe in a certain way,

906
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 1: they act to be faithful to crist And so the

907
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 1: world doesn't care about all those other Christians. They care

908
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: about those ones that say the same thing about the

909
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: nature of reality that Jesus himself said. So that's different,

910
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: and that's offensive. I mean, Jesus got himself killed for

911
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: good to sake. He wasn't just this wonderful guy that

912
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: everybody thought was wonderful. That happened for about a year

913
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: and a half, maybe two years into his ministry. But

914
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: after that Bread of life dies, of course, John three,

915
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: he was on his own. Man, they cut him loose

916
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: and they were mad at him. So how do we navigate?

917
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: And over the years I, as I reflected on it,

918
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: I had developed certain I don't know, maneuvers or techniques

919
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,879
Speaker 1: if you will, that made my job easier. But at

920
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: the heart of it all and this expressed itself in

921
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,720
Speaker 1: what I call the game plan, a tactical game plan,

922
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 1: was using questions to move forward.

923
00:48:58,800 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 2: All right.

924
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 1: Now, in my mind I was trying to think of

925
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: a way to characterize this. It had a handle on it,

926
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: so to speak, And I thought, Wow, Lieutenant Colombo of

927
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: TV fame. Now TV is like a thing of a

928
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: bygone era. Now you got cable, you got podcasts, you

929
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: got you didn't have to have a TV. You can

930
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: get your computer and watch all kinds of stuff. But

931
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: TV was the place where everybody congregated, the family did

932
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: and watch these programs, you know. And there were individual

933
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: individuals that overtime took iconic status, memorable people like Lucy

934
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: from I Love Loosely, for example. But it turns out

935
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: Lucy is the number two most recognized TV icond of

936
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: all time. Lieutenant Columbus number one. And he's a guy

937
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 1: that it was a murder mystery, and he'd come in

938
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: and to the murder scene. He's wearing old trench coat.

939
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: He's got a scraggly old cigar that he's smoking, and

940
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: he's got a pad of paper, but it didn't have

941
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: a pen because he didn't bring one. He's got a

942
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: bum a pencil off of somebody, you know, and he's

943
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: scratching his head and mutter and looking around. And this

944
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: guy looks stupid, but he's stupid like a fox because

945
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: he's got a plan. And at some point he'll, you know,

946
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: scratch has had like his deep and painful thought. And

947
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: then they'll say, I don't know. There's something about this

948
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: thing that bothers me. He wanted to ask you a question,

949
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: so my Columbu imitation, and so he asked the question.

950
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: It works a lot better with the cigar, and that's

951
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: right you from the stage. But in any event, but

952
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 1: he asked the question, he gets information. You're very intelligent.

953
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: One more thing, you know, any one more kings them

954
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: to death. Question after question after question after question, and

955
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: he says, look, I can't help it. It's a habit.

956
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: And this is a habit Christians ought to get into.

957
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: If you learn to navigate with questions. There are all

958
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: kinds of advantages to that. For one, they're polite. You know,

959
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 1: you know you ask questions of other people. I was

960
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: asking earlier about your own career and navigating that. Of

961
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: course you're asking me questions, that's your job situation. But

962
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: I want to find out about you and that you

963
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: probably felt good about that, so that's nice. Not only that,

964
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: when we ask questions, we're getting information. So now I

965
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: got a lot more information about you. Now that was

966
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 1: just a curiosity. It wasn't like I'm trying to lead

967
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: you to some spiritual end at that point. But a

968
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: lot of times the information we get will help us

969
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: to know where to go next. All right, we get

970
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: you're getting intel. Another thing is and this is and

971
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: this is really critical. Questions keep you safe. Questions keep

972
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: you safe. You realize when you're asking questions, you're not

973
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: giving your own view, and so your own view can't

974
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: be attacked. When people Christians might start making say, well

975
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 1: the Bible's word of God? Really, who says who? Oh,

976
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: now it's back in the Christian Maybe the Christian has

977
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: an answer to that. But notice how the statement, which

978
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: was a claim kind of in the face of thetic

979
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 1: that was going to get a response. Okay, put up

980
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: or shut up. Okay, But if you don't say, if

981
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: you don't make a claim, if you want to talk

982
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: about the Bible and say so, what's your view of

983
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 1: the Bible, you're not making any claims about it. You're

984
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: asking for their claims. So in principle, they're the ones

985
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: who are vulnerable. Now we're not going to take a

986
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: listed advantage of that, but we're getting information from them.

987
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: So questions keep you safe. And now here's the third thing,

988
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 1: fourth reason that questions are really valuable, and it's manifest

989
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: right here in our conversation. In this conversation between you

990
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: and me, Granger, I'm doing all the work. You're just

991
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:53,399
Speaker 1: sitting there asking me questions here and there. But the

992
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: conversation is completely in your control because of the questions

993
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: you ask in the driver's seat. And that's a critical

994
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: quality of questions, because when you're asking questions, you're in

995
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 1: the driver's yat of the conversation. That is, your questions

996
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: will direct that conversation wherever you want it to go. Now,

997
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: if you hit a dead end, you could just start

998
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: David in the interview, you say, let me go this way.

999
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask this question. Now, now we understand that's

1000
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: the nature of the interviews like this, But at the

1001
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 1: same time, the same dynamic is in play when we

1002
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 1: are in conversations with other people. I think Christians are

1003
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 1: nervous about having conversations about Jesus. Now, I didn't say

1004
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: faith conversations. I don't like that phrase because the word

1005
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: faith is so corrupted for any good use. People think

1006
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 1: blind faith and leap of faith. So in your conversations

1007
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: about Jesus, it's no I forgot the direction I was

1008
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: going to go with that particular point. When you're having discussions,

1009
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 1: you want to find out as much as you can

1010
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 1: about the other person's point of view. All right, you're

1011
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: going to do that by asking questions. Because oh and

1012
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,760
Speaker 1: by the way, that's was the thought. Christians are sitting

1013
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: on the bench instead of having those conversations because they

1014
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: don't want to get stuck. They don't want to get

1015
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 1: challenged in a way. They don't know how to respond.

1016
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: It's embarrassing, it's awkward, and as far as they're concerned,

1017
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: they might be thinking, well, it's just going to hurt

1018
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: the gospel, it won't help. But if your commitment is

1019
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: to using questions in a productive way, and that's what

1020
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 1: the Tactics book teaches, among a whole lot of other things.

1021
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: But the core of the first section is the game plan,

1022
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: which I call Colombo after the infamous Lieutenant Columbo. If

1023
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: you use those, you're going to find that you can

1024
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: navigate very safely and very productively in conversations, even if

1025
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: you're not very clever. I promise when I just liked

1026
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: this last weekend and I was in Franklin, just south

1027
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 1: of you're very familiar, so and I said, I'm going

1028
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 1: to give you a game plan in the next twenty

1029
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: minutes after I did my preliminary stuff that is going

1030
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: to allow you to converse with confidence in any situation,

1031
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: no matter how little you know or how knowledgeable or

1032
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 1: aggressive or even obnoxious the other person happens to be.

1033
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: So that's my promise. And in that case, I'm only

1034
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:32,760
Speaker 1: giving the first two steps of the three step game plan.

1035
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 1: The third step is more advanced, but the first step

1036
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: is simple. And when you start employing even those two

1037
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 1: steps as a total novice in the not only in

1038
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,760
Speaker 1: the use of the game plan, but as a novice,

1039
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: as a Christian, You're going to be amazed at how

1040
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: how much easier your conversations are going to be, how

1041
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: much safer you're going to feel, and amazingly, how much

1042
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: you can accomplish in people's lives. I have a book

1043
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: to the tactics and book and that's I think I

1044
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: have it here. Yeah, it's and it's a sequel. So

1045
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,439
Speaker 1: it really capitalizes on the third step of the game plan,

1046
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 1: which is using questions to make a point. And here's

1047
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: that book. It's called The Streets of Arts.

1048
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: There we go.

1049
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 1: That's great to get it right there, it's called the

1050
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: subtitle using questions to answer Christianity stuff has challenges. How

1051
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:25,720
Speaker 1: do you use a question to answer a challenge?

1052
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 2: Which is what Jesus did many times.

1053
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: Many times, exactly right. There's over two hundred times he

1054
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 1: asked questions in the gospels. So, but in here, I

1055
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: have an anecdote, and I from a gal who called

1056
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: the radio show, so I had a recording of it.

1057
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: I got it all right, she said, the very first

1058
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: time I used the tactical approach is what happened. It

1059
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: was amazing, she said, Oh, what the heck, I'll just

1060
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: try it. She was in a bookstore looking for a

1061
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 1: Christian book, and she was asking one of the you know,

1062
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: the people who worked at the store to help her

1063
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: find the book. And then she started using the tactical

1064
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: approach and using some of the initial questions. It's a

1065
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: great account in there about how God used that. I

1066
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,720
Speaker 1: also have in the Street Smarts book. I talk about

1067
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:14,280
Speaker 1: this waitress, this waitress in Seattle that you know I.

1068
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this, but most people don't.

1069
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: I'm not a morning person and so you know, I

1070
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: take a long time to get rolling. And I got

1071
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: my before my first cup of coffee. I'm an atheist,

1072
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: you know, so one of those kinds of things. So anyway,

1073
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: this I did a Friday night of it all day

1074
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: Saturday in Seattle. I'm rolling out my robber bag. On

1075
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: Sunday morning at or dark thirty, I got to go

1076
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: to a church and preach at two services. I'm beat up,

1077
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 1: I'm tired, but I'm still trying to wake up. And

1078
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about Jesus. I don't want

1079
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: to talk about God. I don't want to talk leave

1080
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: me alone. I just want my coffee.

1081
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, but this guy comes up to me.

1082
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: She's way too animated for me that morning. This the waitress,

1083
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: Oh God, go away, I'm thinking. Then she says, you know,

1084
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: what are you doing here at all? And I figured

1085
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: to get rid of her, and I say, well, I'm

1086
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,919
Speaker 1: going to preach out a church. I figure off. She goes, yeah, yeah,

1087
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: but she says, oh good, No, what's good about that?

1088
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: For her?

1089
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 2: To her right right? Yeah?

1090
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: So I said why, why is that good? Are you

1091
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: a Christian? I mean that's possible. She says, no, I'm

1092
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: not a Christian. And then she says I used to

1093
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: be a Christian, but I'm not anymore now. She says,

1094
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: the universe takes Caribby, and I'm thinking, huh. So I

1095
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: asked her, I said, how could the universe take care

1096
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: of you? I'm confused about that. Now, For people who

1097
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: don't know the tactical game plan, the very first step

1098
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: is asking the question what do you mean by that?

1099
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: Or some variation? All right. Now, Remember I'm not trying

1100
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: to witness. But she says this thing, and I don't understand.

1101
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: So I'm saying, like, what do you mean? And she said, no,

1102
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 1: the universe is not a person. I said, well, how

1103
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: can it take care of you. She said, oh, well

1104
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: maybe God takes careby Oh okay, well that makes sense.

1105
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: And then she says God is the sure and I'm thinking,

1106
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: what does that mean? So I asked her about that.

1107
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: I'm friendly, sure, you know, and she just kept going

1108
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 1: on with these kind of confused New agey kind of

1109
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: statements and I couldn't and finally she just gave up

1110
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 1: and left, and honest to goodness, as I was sitting there,

1111
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: I was thinking, in my mind, there's not a single

1112
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: thing that I said that had any impact on her whatsoever.

1113
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: She was into her own New Age world and she

1114
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: tried Christianity.

1115
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 2: She's done with that.

1116
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: Off she goes, you brought my breakfast, And when she

1117
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: brought the bill, here's what she said to me. She said,

1118
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: nobody has ever asked me questions about my view before.

1119
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: And it got me thinking. Now, if you read the book,

1120
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: you know this. My goal of asking these questions is

1121
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: not to lead people to Christ. That's the harvest. You

1122
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: got to have the gardening before you have the harvest.

1123
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: I just want a garden, and all I want to

1124
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 1: do is get them thinking. And she said that got

1125
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 1: me thinking. Now, my question is did I want to

1126
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: witness to this girl. No, I didn't want a witness.

1127
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 1: Leave me alone. So here, even against my will by

1128
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: in almost in a knee jerk way, with my inner

1129
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 1: Columbo coming out, responding to the crazy thing she's saying

1130
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 1: to me. God still used it. That's just the first step.

1131
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 2: It's amazing.

1132
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've heard this from other people before. I

1133
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: tell that accountant, but that's in the Streets of March book,

1134
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: which goes into more detail. But well's there's lots of illustrations.

1135
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 3: Let's put legs on this conversation and kind of bring it,

1136
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 3: bring it full circle from the question now of are

1137
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 3: you telling me that if I don't.

1138
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 2: Believe the way you believe, I'm going to hell?

1139
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 3: Because now you would you would you would answer that

1140
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 3: with a question now?

1141
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, so we're kind of in a role

1142
01:00:58,920 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: play right now.

1143
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure.

1144
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: Now I have the thing that I explained to you

1145
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: before firmly in my mind, but sometimes I may get

1146
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: to that in a different route. And so when you

1147
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: said that you're telling me, I said, let me Granger,

1148
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: let me ask you a question in a way that

1149
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: is kind of what I'm saying. But what is it

1150
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 1: you think that means all right, So I think people

1151
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: don't understand what's going on there, and so I'm tossing

1152
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: it back to you.

1153
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 2: So that's the first stay.

1154
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a way of putting it.

1155
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that first step?

1156
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: That's what do you mean? Well, yeah, it's just this

1157
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 1: is just that for I'm getting more clarification. Okay, But

1158
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: you asked that in a certain way because I think

1159
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: you have a certain understanding of what you think my

1160
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 1: view is. Even though I could say yes, strictly speaking

1161
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: to the question you asked, it's a distortion of my view.

1162
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you, what is it you

1163
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 1: think my view is with regards to Jesus that I

1164
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 1: would say such a thing. And so now it's your turn.

1165
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 1: But notice I just I just deflected it. Now if

1166
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 1: this isn't for the purpose of merely deflecting the challenge, correct,

1167
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: it's to try to get to the heart of the matter.

1168
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: And and uh, And you might say, I have no

1169
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 1: idea why you'd say such a thing like that. It

1170
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 1: sounds really arrogant to me. Okay, it sounds like you're

1171
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: in and everybody else's out.

1172
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: Okay, So let's continue the role play.

1173
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 3: So I say, I think that you're completely arrogant and

1174
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 3: you're narrow minded.

1175
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 2: That's okay, that's what I think.

1176
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: So I might say, how well this is? This is

1177
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 1: probably what I wouldn't be what i'd say here, but

1178
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 1: I'll just give it a little tool. How would if

1179
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: I agreed with you that I was arrogant and I

1180
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: was narrow minded? Would that change the truth of the

1181
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: claim I'm making about Jesus.

1182
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 2: Let's stop. She didn't.

1183
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, Well, the answer there's no, obviously,

1184
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: because arrogant people can be right about things right narrow

1185
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 1: minded people. So that's a change of the subject. Okay,

1186
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 1: And I might use that under different circumstances. But then

1187
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 1: i'd ask, okay, Granger, Okay, this is all about Jesus

1188
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 1: and what he did. So here's the question I want

1189
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: to ask you. And maybe you don't have an answer,

1190
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: and that's okay, But what do you think Jesus came

1191
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: to do? As far as you understand.

1192
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 3: It, And he came to he was a good person,

1193
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 3: and he came to tell people good morals and how

1194
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 3: to live their life.

1195
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 1: Okay, well he did do that. There's no question at

1196
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 1: all about that he was a good person, he did

1197
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: say those things. Where did you get that idea?

1198
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 2: Though?

1199
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: I'm just curious.

1200
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 2: I just I hear other people, you know, Christians talking

1201
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 2: this way.

1202
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 1: So have you ever read Jesus.

1203
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 3: I know enough about Jesus to not need to read

1204
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 3: them seriously.

1205
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: Okay, well on this issue, just saying here, Granger, and

1206
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 1: we're still on this issue. This is a really important question.

1207
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: So if you're getting your information about Jesus on this

1208
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 1: really important question from a whole bunch of other people

1209
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 1: rather than straight from the horse's mouth, do you think

1210
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 1: there's a chance you might be misunderstanding Jesus.

1211
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 3: I think there might be a chance, But I think

1212
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 3: that the matter is I don't really see why God

1213
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 3: would use one religion above another, and so I find

1214
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 3: no need to really understand what Jesus is saying.

1215
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I definitely can understand how you would say

1216
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 1: that if it was just a matter of choosing a

1217
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 1: religious club. So let me try to make a parallel.

1218
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: What if what if you had a really bad pain

1219
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: in your abdomen and acute man, it's like, oh man,

1220
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 1: something's wrong, maybe it's appendicitis, And then I said, you

1221
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 1: need to a dentist.

1222
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's pretty bad.

1223
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I say, wait, what makes you think that one

1224
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: person should care about one doctor over another doctor? Doctors

1225
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 1: or doctors, whatever, Just go to a doctor you like,

1226
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: a cheap one. Whatever. But you're going to say, wait

1227
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 1: a minute, Dennis does a different thing than what I need.

1228
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 2: Okay.

1229
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 1: So I'm just giving you a parallel here, Granger, to

1230
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 1: help you to see that it's not so easy to say,

1231
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 1: how could God prefer one religion over another? If God's

1232
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 1: trying to accomplish something, then you have to look at

1233
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: what he's trying to accomplish and see if those different

1234
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 1: religions reflect that. By the way, I'm not sure about

1235
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: your own convictions, but a lot of people think that

1236
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,439
Speaker 1: all religions are basically the same and they all kind

1237
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: of one way or another lead to God.

1238
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 2: That's what I think.

1239
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so Christians think that Jesus is the Messiah

1240
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 1: and Jews think that he's not. Now he either is

1241
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 1: or he isn't. How can they both be right on

1242
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 1: that really important factor?

1243
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, Mohammed is claiming

1244
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 3: the same thing. So that's why I think all religions

1245
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 3: are just false man made ideas.

1246
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: Oh okay, well, now we're talking about something entirely different

1247
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 1: that their man made is because Mohammed, Christianity teaches that

1248
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 1: Jesus died and across and rose in the dead. Jews

1249
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: think that Jesus died and across, but he didn't rise

1250
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: from the dead. Mohammed taught that Jesus didn't rise from

1251
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 1: the dead because he didn't even die in across. Now,

1252
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 1: this whole idea of the death and resurrection of Christ,

1253
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: you know this just because you live in America and

1254
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 1: Easter is coming up, is a big deal to Christians.

1255
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 1: This central right. So everybody can't be right on this.

1256
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: How about this one. I'm just talking about one idea.

1257
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 1: Muslims and Christians and Jews think that God is personal,

1258
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 1: kind of like you and I are in a certain sense.

1259
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 1: You can talk to him, He does stuff. Now, Hindus

1260
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 1: think that God is not personal, he's kind of a

1261
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 1: force or something like that. Well, he's either personal or

1262
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 1: not personal if he exists. So if he's impersonal, the

1263
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 1: Hindus are right, and the Jews and Christians are wrong

1264
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:31,959
Speaker 1: on God. And if he's personal, then they're right on God.

1265
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: And the Hindus are wrong, but they can all both

1266
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 1: be right, all right, So how is it that all

1267
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 1: of these religions are basically the same? And I'll get

1268
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 1: you to God when they don't even agree on what

1269
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 1: God's like. So I'm just going to a point you

1270
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:48,160
Speaker 1: made a little bit earlier, that all religions are legitimate

1271
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 1: past the God. I'm just trying to get you to

1272
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 1: think about that, so that makes sense to you.

1273
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 3: I can understand here, mister Cochl that you are evidently

1274
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 3: you have some knowledge in this subject. And so I'm

1275
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 3: still kind of wrapping around to my first question. So

1276
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 3: why is it obviously somebody's right and somebody's wrong. You

1277
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 3: made a good point about that, okay, And why do

1278
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:09,919
Speaker 3: you think you're right?

1279
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 2: How does that? How could you say you're right and

1280
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 2: I'm wrong?

1281
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:21,680
Speaker 1: Simple answer? Jesus Jesus. And I don't mean Jesus in

1282
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: a book. I mean that Jesus in history, feet on

1283
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 1: the ground, all right, Jesus of Nazareth, all right, he's

1284
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 1: a guy who lived and died and then something strange

1285
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 1: happened because whom they put him in was empty three

1286
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 1: days later. And there's a whole bunch of people who

1287
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:46,360
Speaker 1: said they saw him alive after he was dead, which

1288
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: is the basic definition of a resurrection. And then they

1289
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: in a certain sense of time that were willing to

1290
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:57,920
Speaker 1: sign their testimony and blood. These people are all willing

1291
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 1: to die. Now, how could they be lying? Incidentally, the

1292
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 1: points I just made about Jesus lived and he died,

1293
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 1: and the tomb was empty, and these guys say they

1294
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:08,639
Speaker 1: saw him. These are facts of history. When I say

1295
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,959
Speaker 1: facts of history, I'm not just advancing my own opinion

1296
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:16,520
Speaker 1: about this. These are the facts that virtually all historians

1297
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: of the era, no matter what their personal convictions acknowledge,

1298
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 1: are well attested by the historical evidence in the primary

1299
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 1: source documents that we possess. So I mean, they don't

1300
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: all think Jesus rose in the dead. But then we

1301
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 1: have to ask the question, what was the point of

1302
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 1: these guys saying he did if he didn't, if they

1303
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 1: didn't experience that, Because you know, lots of people die

1304
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 1: for a lie, but not if they know it's a lie.

1305
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you the rule about lying, Granger, and

1306
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:50,600
Speaker 1: every kid knows this, all right, tell a lie that

1307
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 1: gets you something good, You don't tell a lie that

1308
01:09:54,000 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 1: gets you whipped, beaten with rods, stoned, crucified up side down,

1309
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 1: or beheaded. This is not a good lie, no, but

1310
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: this is what these disciples who said they saw Jesus

1311
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:14,759
Speaker 1: were willing to endure. Based on their confession of seeing Jesus.

1312
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:19,599
Speaker 1: These guys weren't lying. That's so when I look at

1313
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 1: the options, and there I got Jesus, a very unique

1314
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:27,719
Speaker 1: individual who I can establish some certain historical facts pretty clearly,

1315
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:32,599
Speaker 1: and then I reason from those historical facts, what's the

1316
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:36,240
Speaker 1: best explanation for the fact that Jesus was dead and

1317
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:40,120
Speaker 1: then the tomb was empty, and then all these people

1318
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:45,679
Speaker 1: were willing to on the pain of death. They didn't

1319
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 1: all die matery staffs, but lots of them did, and

1320
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:50,880
Speaker 1: they all got persecuted. We're willing to say we saw

1321
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:55,000
Speaker 1: this guy, we saw him after he rose from the dead,

1322
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 1: and we're communicating this message and what this resurrection seals.

1323
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 1: And maybe the goes to your point a little bit

1324
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 1: more clearly. And I made reference to this earlier before

1325
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: the role play. Actually, but in any event, one of Jesus'

1326
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:19,760
Speaker 1: followers wrote this that the resurrection of Christ declared with

1327
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,679
Speaker 1: power that he was the son of God. In other words,

1328
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 1: he was God come down. Now why did he come down?

1329
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: Because he cared enough about you and me, who are

1330
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 1: violators of God's law and are guilty. And I don't

1331
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 1: need to tell you that because you already know it

1332
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:41,719
Speaker 1: all right. Everybody knows about themselves. And he was willing

1333
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:48,000
Speaker 1: to take the punishment that is due us so that

1334
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 1: we could be forgiven. He's going to pay the penalty,

1335
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 1: He's going to take the wrap. And he did that,

1336
01:11:57,840 --> 01:11:59,679
Speaker 1: and then when he rose from the dead, that showed

1337
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: he accomplished what he was after. Now you have a choice.

1338
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:09,599
Speaker 1: You can either go with Jesus or go it alone.

1339
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:14,240
Speaker 1: By the way, Jesus means forgiveness and going it alone

1340
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 1: means just the opposite justice.

1341
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 2: I think I was just saved. I think this table

1342
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 2: was saved there.

1343
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: But let me just this is a great role play,

1344
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:29,200
Speaker 1: and I appreciate you going there. And notice how when

1345
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 1: I explained how I responded to that question with the

1346
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: Jewish audience. I have this tough in my mind, but

1347
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 1: I kind of adapted it to our circumstance and I

1348
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 1: used lots of questions and then when it got to

1349
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:42,679
Speaker 1: the point where I really needed to explain I used

1350
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 1: this illustrations that I hope would make sense, but there

1351
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 1: was not a word of Christian psycho babble. And that

1352
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 1: entire explanation true. And this is something that I think

1353
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:55,280
Speaker 1: is really important in the Tactics book, as the Tactics says,

1354
01:12:55,320 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 1: watch your language. And that's what I'm talking about Christian psychobabble,

1355
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 1: because it doesn't communicate. It's just religious noise to most people,

1356
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 1: and I think the most Christians too.

1357
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 3: And so for people listening, can you give us a

1358
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:12,679
Speaker 3: few of these words what I like to call Christian ease?

1359
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so what are some of these words? There's

1360
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:18,600
Speaker 1: a whole category. Well, notice I didn't say saved. I

1361
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 1: didn't use the word faith. I didn't use the word believe.

1362
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:25,439
Speaker 1: When I talked about my own if you will, my

1363
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 1: own the content of my faith. I talk about my convictions.

1364
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:33,639
Speaker 1: If I were to say I'm impressing you or granger,

1365
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:35,760
Speaker 1: I was going to challenge you. I'm not going to

1366
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 1: say receive Jesus as Lord and savior. I'm going to

1367
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:43,800
Speaker 1: say I want you to trust Christ because he did

1368
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 1: something for you you don't want to have to do

1369
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 1: for yourself. He took the punishment. And then I want

1370
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:50,679
Speaker 1: you to follow Jesus and never stop.

1371
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:54,760
Speaker 2: It's great, it's so clear, practical.

1372
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:58,639
Speaker 1: Lord and Savior. Now those terms mean something, but they

1373
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: don't mean anything to the other guy, and they're largely

1374
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 1: stale Christian religious phrases even to us. You know, I

1375
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:12,720
Speaker 1: have this whole category of pastor speak. You can talk

1376
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:14,800
Speaker 1: to a pastor, you know, at the grocery store, and

1377
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 1: he's going to talk a certain way the minute he

1378
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:20,720
Speaker 1: gets up on the dayas at a Sunday services, he

1379
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:25,679
Speaker 1: often pastors speak and he's saying all this, Amen, brothers, Amen, brothers,

1380
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:29,840
Speaker 1: what a blessing, hallelujah, well, hallelujahs, praising God. But I

1381
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:33,519
Speaker 1: mean all that other stuff. Why pastors say amen, amen, Amen,

1382
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:35,320
Speaker 1: they're trying to get a rise out of the audience.

1383
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 1: Because what they're saying doesn't get a rise is out

1384
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:41,479
Speaker 1: of the audience. So stop doing that. Just preach in

1385
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 1: a manner that affects the audience. Don't ask for an

1386
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:46,800
Speaker 1: artificial applause. Well, on that.

1387
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:49,040
Speaker 3: Note, let me ask you one more question. So back

1388
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:53,240
Speaker 3: to the role play. So I say I want to

1389
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 3: know more about this kid. Could you pray for me?

1390
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 3: What would be the contents of your short prayer with

1391
01:14:59,200 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 3: everything we said.

1392
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 1: So, yeah, of course I might ask why would you

1393
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 1: want me to I'd be happy to pray for your grature,

1394
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 1: but why do you want me to pray? And if

1395
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:09,880
Speaker 1: I don't have an answer to that, I don't know

1396
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 1: how to pray properly? Okay, So I mean I might

1397
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 1: say that, or I might just jump into it. I

1398
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:18,599
Speaker 1: use that as an illustration. This is another step of colombo.

1399
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:20,920
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? What's going on there?

1400
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:26,160
Speaker 1: Help me out? Notice how it's interactive, and every step

1401
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 1: that I can get more information from you. I want

1402
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,720
Speaker 1: to do that because it keeps you involved and it

1403
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 1: helps me understand you better. But I might say, Father,

1404
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 1: let me say, well, okay, i'll make this comment after

1405
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:41,400
Speaker 1: the father. I'm praying for a granger right now, and

1406
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:44,760
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you gave us an opportunity to

1407
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:48,640
Speaker 1: have this conversation. And I know there's a lot of

1408
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 1: things he's confused about, and that's okay, it's the learning process.

1409
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 1: But I pray that the things that I shared with

1410
01:15:56,640 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 1: him today will find a place in his heart, that

1411
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:04,080
Speaker 1: you will take these things that I've said and open

1412
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 1: his understanding to them so that he can benefit from

1413
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 1: your wonderful mercy and be rescued by the Lord Jesus Christ,

1414
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:20,639
Speaker 1: who is his only hope. So be it.

1415
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 2: It's beautiful, that's beautiful, So be it.

1416
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:25,479
Speaker 3: Thanks, And I'm not I'm not going to say amen

1417
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:27,559
Speaker 3: anymore because you called me, so be it.

1418
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:30,480
Speaker 1: I'll occasionally look at when you say amen from the

1419
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:32,760
Speaker 1: people know you're finished. It's a way of saying that.

1420
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 1: But but I don't ever say almost ever saying Jesus

1421
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:41,200
Speaker 1: name amen, because praying in Jesus name doesn't mean saying

1422
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 1: in Jesus name. There's not a prayer in the New

1423
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 1: Testament that ever ends that way, and there's lots of

1424
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:50,120
Speaker 1: prayers there. True, you know, it means the awareness that

1425
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 1: we go before the Father because Jesus has given us access,

1426
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 1: we're going in his name. As long as we have

1427
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:59,679
Speaker 1: that awareness, we're fine. So I don't I just usually

1428
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:04,280
Speaker 1: leave that behind, you know. And now I'm from the sixties,

1429
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:06,960
Speaker 1: so instead of saying aimn, sometimes I might say right on,

1430
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:11,519
Speaker 1: right on, Well, you.

1431
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:15,639
Speaker 3: Have been so gracious with your time, and I appreciate

1432
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 3: you so much. I could probably listen for a couple

1433
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:18,919
Speaker 3: more hours, just to listen to you talk.

1434
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:21,559
Speaker 1: So I get talk for a couple of borrowers. Maybe

1435
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 1: we can do this another time.

1436
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:25,040
Speaker 3: I wish I could be on Kirk Cameron's level where

1437
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:26,760
Speaker 3: I could just send you birthday cards every year.

1438
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 2: But maybe I'll give to someow.

1439
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 1: He is a sweetheart. I don't get that for everybody.

1440
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 1: I don't even get that for my family, my old girls.

1441
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 1: But he hasn't done.

1442
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:38,519
Speaker 2: That for a while.

1443
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 1: But it was just something he did and just just

1444
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 1: to encourage me as a brother, you know. And anyway,

1445
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 1: So I'm glad to have been here with you, Granger,

1446
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 1: and I am open to other conversations, so no worries.

1447
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 2: Excellent.

1448
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining me on the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate

1449
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 3: all of you guys. You could help me out by

1450
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 3: rating these podcasts on tunes. If you're on YouTube, subscribe

1451
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:05,800
Speaker 3: to this channel, hit that little like button and notification

1452
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:09,799
Speaker 3: spell so that you never miss anytime I upload a video.

1453
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:10,519
Speaker 3: Yigi