1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. Almost every American knows 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: someone who has been affected by the opioid crisis. Addiction 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: is an issue that impacts individuals from every walk of 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: life and has led to tragic destruction and in some 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: cases suicide, in other cases simply people dropping out of 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: normal society. My guest today was a young staffer in 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: the White House during the Clinton administration, but just a 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: few years later he would face the challenges of addiction, homelessness, 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: and being alone. In twenty fifteen, he began his recovery 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: from a decade of active opioid use and is now 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: a leading national voice for addiction recovery. He's a recovery advocate, 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: community organizer, and author. His first book was American Fixed, 13 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: Inside the Opioid Addiction Crisis and How To End It. 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: It tells his personal story of addictionary recovery, and he's 15 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: joining me today to discuss his new book, Unsettled, How 16 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: the Purdue Pharma bankruptcy failed the victims of the American 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: overdose crisis. I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Ryan Hampton. Brian, 18 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me, and I want to take 19 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: just a moment if I could to ask you to 20 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: share with us your own personal story new thanks for 21 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: having me on. So in two thousand and three, I 22 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: was on a hiking trip with my roommate right outside Washington, 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: DC at a very steep trail called the Billy Goat Trail, 24 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: which is between Maryland and Virginia, and I slipped and 25 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: I fell and fell really hard and ended up injuring 26 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: my ankle and my knee actually cracking the platela of 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: I need, and ended up in the care of an 28 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: urgent care physician small er room, where the doctor told 29 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: me I needed to get an MRI, told me I 30 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: needed to get my ankle looked at, but in the 31 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: meantime gave me a prescription for a very high grade 32 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: opioid called Delotted, which is also known off brand as Hydromorphone, 33 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: which I learned recently is actually a Purdue product. And 34 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: while I didn't get that MRI done or that surgery 35 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: done right away, I was able to go back to 36 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: the doctor and get a prescription and another prescription, and 37 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: another prescription and another prescription. You then moved to Florida 38 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: and got hooked up with pain clinics. You showed up 39 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: your doctor's officer told that you are now in a 40 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: database for people who use opioids, and you were told 41 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: you to be arrested if you showed up in a 42 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: doctor's office, and you then started using street heroin. But 43 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: on February second, twenty fifteen, you began your recovery. I mean, 44 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: that is virtually a lifetime crammed into just a few years. 45 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: When you look back on it, are you a little 46 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: surprised that you survived? I'm blown away that I survived. 47 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: This is an important time for me, you know, as 48 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: we get into holiday season into the new year. Between 49 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: October thirty first, twenty fourteen and the evening of Thanksgiving 50 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen was when I was asking for help. I 51 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: was homeless on the streets of Los Angeles, looking for help, 52 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: and I had to walk to a pay phone every 53 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: single day and put a quarter in it to find 54 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: a public facility that would take me. I oftentimes think 55 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: back about how did I make it, And all I 56 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: can say is thank the Heavens above when I got help. 57 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: When I finally got into recovery, fentenyl hadn't hit the 58 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: scene yet. You know, I've lost over thirty friends of mine. 59 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: People I love people, I care about to overdoses, fent 60 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 1: in all overdoses. During the lockdowns, they couldn't get access 61 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: to hospitals and treatment facilities, and they ended up losing 62 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: their lives. And I reflect oftentimes why did I make it? 63 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: Why am I here today? Why am I able to 64 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: be in the place that I'm at today? And my 65 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: friends and people I love are not And I still 66 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: mourn their deaths, And all I can do now in 67 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: remembrance of them is to fight harder to make sure 68 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: that we have equitable access to the care that people 69 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: who are struggling need today to save their lives. Because 70 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: the system is really broken. I experienced the system being 71 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 1: broken from the outside from someone who is looking for help, 72 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: and then I experienced the system being completely broken from 73 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: the inside, which is the topic of my new book, 74 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,559 Speaker 1: Unsettled and why we face these challenge in the first place. 75 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: But yes, I consider myself lucky. I'm not here today 76 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: able to talk to you because everything worked out the 77 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: way that it was supposed to and the system is perfect. 78 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: I actually lucked into it. I lucked into evidence based 79 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: treatment and treatment with puprenorphine and subox zone and housing 80 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: and able to find a job and able to have 81 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: peer supports, and able to plug into a community that 82 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: believed in me and was able to lift me up 83 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: when I couldn't bring myself up. And you know, I 84 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: think if anybody can get anything from my story and 85 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: reading the books, it's that you know when the right 86 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: support is there, recovery is possible. Recovery should be the outcome. 87 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,799 Speaker 1: People can live productive lives and thrive and recovery after 88 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: a lifetime of devastation by addiction. But we have to 89 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: make sure that we've got a good safety net to 90 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: catch them and support them when they're asking for help. 91 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: So I'm curious to stay with your story. What was 92 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: the moment when you decided that you had to start 93 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: the long journey of recovery. It's a great question. When 94 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: I got admitted on Thanksgiving Eve twenty fourteen to a 95 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 1: public treatment facility in North Los Angeles, I actually wasn't 96 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: really looking for help for about a month prior. My 97 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: mother was the only person who would talk to me. 98 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: I had lost all connection with friends, family, former employers. 99 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: Nobody wanted anything to do with me. People expected they 100 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: were going to find my body out in some ditch 101 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: somewhere dead of an overdose, and my mom. I would 102 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: talk to her once a day and she would say, 103 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: you know, I believe in you, Ryan, I believe you 104 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: can do this. I have faith. I have faith that 105 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: you can do this. Just go get some help. And 106 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: it was really my mother's faith in me when I 107 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: couldn't believe in myself that led me to make that 108 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: phone call. But when I was making that phone call, 109 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: what I was looking for was really a roof over 110 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: my head and some food to eat at night, because 111 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: I was tired of living on the street. I was 112 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: tired of having nowhere to go. I was tired of 113 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,679 Speaker 1: not having a community to come home to. I didn't 114 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: really expect that I was going to stay sober or 115 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: make it into recovery because I had had so many 116 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: previous failures at treatment and recovery before. So when I 117 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: got to that treatment facility, I was looking for a 118 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: place to lay my head down at night. But what 119 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: I got was something way bigger than that. And as 120 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: I stayed longer, as I met people in that treatment 121 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: facility and in the subsequent recovery housing program that I 122 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: was at, I stayed in recovery housing for eighteen months. 123 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: I found what I was always yearning for, which was 124 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: a sense of community, folks who were willing to help me. 125 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: I saw that there was a different way for me 126 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: than just living on the streets, and maybe there was 127 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: some sort of purpose out there. And so it wasn't 128 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: like this one moment, white light moment. It was several 129 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: moments throughout the course of about eighteen months to two 130 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: years that really kept me on that path and keeps 131 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: me on that path today. Today, the reasons I stay 132 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: sober are so much different than what they were when 133 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: I first went into treatment. I mean, I'm engaged today, 134 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: I'm involved in my community. I'm an advocate, you know, 135 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: I've written two books. There's things for me to live 136 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: for today. I have a tremendous relationship with my mother 137 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: and my sisters, and so the reason that I maintain 138 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: my recovery is constantly changing. But that first kind of 139 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: aha moment was basically just I need a reprieve because 140 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: I'm tired. Do you go to a support group? I do. 141 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: I'm a very active member in a twelve step fellowship. 142 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: There's multiple pathways of recovery, you know, I would say 143 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: there's as many pathways of recovery, as there are people 144 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: seeking or in recovery, but for me, it is a 145 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: twelve step based fellowship. I've found a tremendous amount of 146 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: community and hope and peers in my twelve step fellowship, 147 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: and I am pretty rigorous about it. And how often 148 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: do you go, oh goodness several times a week? I'm 149 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: curious to me. I have a very good friend who 150 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: is a recovering alcoholic who went through a very lengthy 151 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: and painful detox about nineteen eighty three and has really 152 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: been sober every day since then, but is very vividly 153 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: aware that he is recovering, not recovered, and he's very 154 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: careful about what he does and the exercises constantly. On 155 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: the other hand, I had a very very close friend 156 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: who went three times into detox and it never took. 157 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: I mean, he'd go in, he'd come out, it would 158 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: last three or four or five months, and then he 159 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: would slide back off, and it was sort of like 160 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: there was an emptiness in his life. And the experience 161 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: of fellowship you're describing somehow didn't reach him because it 162 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: was a great tragedy and he ultimately died of cancer. 163 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: But at the time I watched and thought, here's a 164 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: person of great talent who had lost control of himself. Yeah, 165 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: and you know, I think it's probably the most important 166 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: ingredient in recovery is community, because I think that's what 167 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 1: we're all longing for. You know, people find recovery in 168 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: faith and in religious and in church settings. People find 169 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: it in twelve step recovery, people find it in other 170 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: community settings. But we're all I think, yearning to be 171 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: a part of something and to have fellowship with other 172 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 1: human beings. And without that, which is why it's so 173 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: important for me to stay close to my recovery community, 174 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: close to my twelve step fellowship, we do veer off course, 175 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's very hard to do this alone. Folks 176 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: have a hard time seeking and maintaining recovery alone. You 177 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: have to have a community that you plug into. I 178 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: think it's fascinating that you created a web series Addiction 179 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: Across America, where you documented a thirty day, twenty eighth state, 180 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: eight thousand mile cross country trip visiting places hit hardest 181 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: by the addiction crisis. You did that pretty rapidly after 182 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: starting into recovery. How did that conceptualize occur to you? Now? 183 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: I mean you'll appreciate this story. In twenty sixteen, you know, 184 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: I was about a year into my recovery and a 185 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: lot of people close to me started dying. One of 186 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: my roommates where I was really close to, and they 187 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: were overdosing, And I felt like, you know, when I 188 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: was out in active use, I could count on my 189 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: left hand how many people I had a relationship with 190 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: that died of an overdose. But as soon as I 191 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: got into recovery and created these meaningful relationships with folks 192 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: in my community, many of them started dying. But the 193 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: circumstances of their deaths were really angering me. What do 194 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: you mean by that? What does circumstances mean? Being turned 195 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: away from hospitals. A friend of mine, Nick, who had 196 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: a relapse with heroin and went into a hospital and 197 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: said he was afraid he was going to overdose. He 198 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: needed some help, he needed some mental healthcare. He didn't 199 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: know where else to go, and he was turned away 200 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: and given a bunch of hotlines he could call for 201 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: a crisis center the next day if he was willing. 202 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: He wasn't seen by a doctor, he wasn't given a bed. 203 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: I mean people being denied health insurance some of the 204 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: biggest health insurance denying coverage to friends of mine who 205 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: needed addiction treatment when they're supposed to be paying for it. 206 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: Circumstances like that, when people were asking for help, they 207 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: were being denied care, and that was angering to me 208 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: when they were dying. And so it was spring of 209 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, and there was a presidential election that was 210 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: going on, heating up, and nobody was listening to us. 211 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: I was trying to tell Nick's story, my friends who 212 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: I had lost, their stories to different policymakers, and nobody 213 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: would take my call. Nobody would take me seriously because 214 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: they saw me as just this quote unquote addict. And 215 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: I was reading the newspaper one morning with my best 216 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: friend and Garrett, on the deck of this recovery home. 217 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: I was driving uber at the time, and I saw 218 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: an article about how elections for the delegates to the 219 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: National Convention for the state of California we're taking place 220 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: the next month, and that you would need to register 221 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: to vote and you could run for delegate. And immediately 222 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: that work I used to do as a community organizer 223 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: popped in and I said, well, maybe if I ran 224 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: for delegate to the convention, there's no way I'm gonna win. 225 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 1: But maybe if I ran, people would listen to us. 226 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: Maybe I could go talk to the community. At the 227 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: very least, I could talk to this caucus about the 228 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: overdoses happening in our community. And so that's what I did. 229 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: I registered, I went around to sober homes, I got 230 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: sober homes registered to vote, went to recovery centers, started 231 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: to organize them, talk about our friends stories and ask 232 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: them all to show up to this caucus and to 233 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: vote for me for delegate, so that I could get 234 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: up and talk to our members of Congress, city council members, judges, 235 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: you know, kind of the party elite in that community. 236 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: And that's what we did. Forty of us showed up there. 237 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: We worked the line of seven hundred people who were 238 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: there to vote for their candidate at the caucus for 239 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: the presidential nominating convention. And what we found was we 240 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: spread out to work that line and I would start saying, Hi, 241 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: my name is Ryan Hampton. I live a few blocks away. 242 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: My friend Nick just overdosed and died six weeks ago. 243 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: And before I could get that out of my mouth, 244 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: somebody would put their hand on my shoulder, or grab 245 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: my arm and say I just lost my granddaughter to 246 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: an overdose. My brothers in treatment right now. I grew 247 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: up in an alcoholic household. Everybody was impacted. And I 248 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: won that election, and I needed to get to the 249 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: convention somehow. So we decided to take this message on 250 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: the road, and my best friend and I rented a 251 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: thirty five ft RV and we traveled across the country 252 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: and decided this wasn't about a political convention or a 253 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: political party. This was about getting the political parties to 254 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: start talking about overdose and addiction as a policy issue. 255 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: And we raised a little bit of money. We went 256 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: to those twenty two states. We stayed in homes of 257 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: family members who had lost loved ones. We went inside 258 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: of prisons and jails and met with people on the street, 259 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: and went into recovery centers and met with members of Congress. 260 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: And what I found going on that trip was that 261 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: I wasn't alone in my anger and in my frustration 262 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: and in my outrage that addressing addiction in this country 263 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: wasn't a top policy priority. And it changed my life. 264 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: I came home from that trip and that's when we 265 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: founded the nonprofit Voicis Project, the organization that I lead today, 266 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: which advocates for people in policy solutions to the overdose 267 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: and addiction crisis in this country. It was a life 268 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: changing experience, but it started as just an idea at 269 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: a local political caucus for our community to be heard. 270 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: Because I do believe that addressing addiction in this country 271 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: is a political issue. It has to be a political issue, 272 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: and it has to be a bipartisan issue. So let 273 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: me carry you back to me, because I think it 274 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: will help people get a better sense of how vulnerable 275 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: anybody is to this in many ways. I mean, your 276 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: addiction starts with a broken ankle. It doesn't start because 277 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: you're out at a nightclub. So walk us through the 278 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: process by which you go from a helpful drug to 279 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: a destructive drug to an illegal drug. Yeah, and it 280 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: wasn't a very protracted journey either from one end of 281 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: the spectrum to the other. I had that injury shortly 282 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: after leaving the White House in two thousand and three, 283 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: and I was still in Washington, DC and went to 284 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: that urgent care center and they said, you're gonna need 285 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: to get this ankle looked at in an MRI done. 286 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, here's this prescription, hydromorphone delotted, which, 287 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: by the way, most people don't know was a Purdue product, 288 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: a very high grade Purdue product, And I took it. 289 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: And I didn't end up getting that MRI or that 290 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: ankle checked out, but I kept getting another prescription because 291 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: at the same time, my father had passed away and 292 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: I had to move back home to Florida. And if 293 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: you know anything about the current day opioid crisis, overdose crisis, 294 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: you'll know that at Florida was the epicenter in the 295 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: early two thousands mid two thousands for the pill mill crisis. 296 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: They used to call I ninety five Oxycotton Express. People 297 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: would come down to South Florida to see these doctors 298 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: to get prescriptions filled for oxycotton and take them back 299 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: to West Virginia or Kentucky. And after moving back to Florida, 300 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: I still needed to manage this pain because at the 301 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: time I did have legitimate pain and I had cracked 302 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: my knee and my ankle, and I went to my 303 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: primary care physician and said, Doc, I have this pain. 304 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: I was seeing this doctor up in Maryland. What do 305 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: I do? Where do I go? Can you prescribe something 306 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: or give me something I can do. Can I get surgery? 307 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: What do I do? And the doctor said, I don't 308 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: do pain medicine. You're going to need to go to 309 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: a pain specific clinic. And there's plenty for you to 310 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: choose from. You can look in the back pages of 311 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: the Miami New Times, which is what I did. And 312 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: I ended up in a pill mill clinic, not knowing 313 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: what it was, under the care of a woman named 314 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: doctor Leah. And the first time I went to that 315 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: pain clinic and told her what I was on, she said, no, 316 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, no, I have something way better for you. 317 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: You're taking too many of these. You have to take 318 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: four to five of these a day at different times. 319 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: I have a medication you can take just once or 320 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: twice a day and that's all you've got to do. 321 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: And it was oxycotton. I got my first prescription for 322 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: oxycotton from doctor Leah. I wish I would have known 323 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: what I know today about oxycotton and the high abuse 324 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: level that it had, But I can remember doctor Leah 325 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: telling me that this is a medication that is got 326 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: a very low abuse potential and that if I was 327 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: feeling any type of symptoms from not having enough of 328 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: the medication that it would be okay just to call 329 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: her that this was very normal, that dependence didn't equal addiction. 330 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: And that was really the beginning of the end for me, 331 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: because as I needed more medication, instead of taking me 332 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: down or looking at alternative ways to treat the pain 333 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: or even call the question if I had an addiction 334 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: at the time, they kept giving me more and more 335 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: and more, and eventually that use turned into misuse, and 336 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 1: that misuse turned into problematic use and full blown addiction. 337 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: For that first two years though of using the medication, 338 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: I didn't connect addiction with the pill use. And it 339 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: sounds silly to say that today, but I honestly did 340 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: not know. I used to keep the pill bottle on 341 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: my desk at work. I was working on congressional campaigns 342 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: in South Florida. Oxycotton was like a thing if anybody 343 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: listening can remember, I mean, folks used to have oxycotton 344 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: in their medicine cabinet. They would leave the extra pills 345 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: from a surgery or some sort of any We didn't 346 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: know the risks at the time. Wasn't oxycotton what got 347 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: to Russia? Limbaugh? Yes, Yes, the same problem, the same problem, 348 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: and you know nude. I write about Rush in my 349 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: first book when I got involved in this advocacy work, 350 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: and in twenty seventeen, I remember there was a Bill 351 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: Maher segment on HBO where he was mocking Rush for 352 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: his oxycotton use and problems with oxycotton. And I was 353 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: infuriated because I don't agree with Rush on a lot 354 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: of things, but the fact that we were still using 355 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: someone's issues with addiction and oxycotton as like a cheap shot, 356 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: I mean, it just maddened me. But yes, it is 357 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: what Rush experienced issues with, and the oxycotton use turned 358 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: into heroin. Because Florida in the late two thousands was 359 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: starting to see the impact of oxycotton and just this 360 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: massive amount of pill clinics that were opening up around 361 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: the state. I'm telling you the truth when I tell 362 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: you there were more pain specific pharmacies and pill clinics 363 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: that only dealt in narcotics in the state of Florida, 364 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: and particularly South Florida. Then there were McDonald's or seven eleven's. 365 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: It was big business. And when Florida realized they had 366 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: a problem, their solution was to just shut the supply off. 367 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: They didn't realize that they had now have to deal 368 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: with this very large population of people who are addicted. 369 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: They said, let's just create this database. We'll track how 370 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: many pills people are taking, what doctors are prescribing, and 371 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: if people are taking too much or seeing more than 372 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: one doctor, or have an addiction problem, we're just going 373 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: to stop prescribing. They're not going to be allowed to 374 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: fill a prescription. And when I got tagged in that 375 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: system in late two thousand and eight two thousand and nine, 376 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: I remember walking into my doctor's office trying to get 377 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,959 Speaker 1: the prescription. I was dope sick, for lack of a 378 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: better term, I was in withdrawal. I needed my medication. 379 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: I was in full blown addiction. At the time. I 380 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: was homeless. Doctor said, I can't prescribe this to you. 381 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: I mean called me all sorts of awful terms, but 382 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: one of them was junkie. And if you try to 383 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: come back to this office or go to any other 384 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: doctor to get this medication, you'll be arrested because you're 385 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: now tagged. And when I walked out of that office 386 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: that day, this wasn't just happening to me. It was 387 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: happening to thousands of people. There was somebody there in 388 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: the parking lot with heroin who said, I have something 389 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: that will get you well right now. It's cheaper. You 390 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: can call me anytime. And that was the beginning of 391 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: you know, the heroin used for me and almost the 392 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: end of my life. I'm pretty ignorant about this. Was 393 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: heroin stronger than oxy cotton? It depends. Let's just say 394 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: it was the same effect at minimum. But yes, depending 395 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: on the grade of heroin and where you got it from, 396 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: it could be stronger. Today it is much stronger because 397 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the heroine is now cut with ventanol, 398 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: which is why we're seeing, you know, these numbers that 399 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: we're seeing. I mean, people are dying left and right. 400 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: But at a minimum it would have the same effect 401 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: as heroin, and from an economic standpoint, much cheaper. So 402 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: as part of your recovery process, and this goes back 403 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: to your own experiences in Washington, you ended up helping 404 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: with me first ever US Surgeon General's report an Addiction 405 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen. I mean, most have given you some 406 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: real sense of satisfaction that the pain you'd been through 407 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: you could now use to help shape public policy. Yes, 408 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: we started to see a shift in twenty sixteen and 409 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen around addressing addiction as a public health crisis. 410 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: That Surgeon General's report was a seminal report that really 411 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: started to lay out effective strategies for what we need 412 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: to be doing to combat a day, and it went 413 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: from evidence based treatment to effective prevention measures, to housing, 414 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: to recovery supports for people who were in and seeking recovery. 415 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: Working on that report was really one of the first 416 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: things I was able to do and stand by and 417 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: feel really proud that I was able to be a 418 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: part of. Hopefully states in the federal government today start 419 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: implementing some of those strategies. It's been slow to come, 420 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: but we know what we need to do and the 421 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: data and the science support it. And that period you 422 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: also published American Fix Inside the Opioid Addiction Crisis and 423 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: How to End It. What made you decide to write 424 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: the book. I had just gotten back from the trip 425 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: that trip across America, and I was in a bookstore 426 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: in Pasadena, California, and I was looking for a book 427 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: on solutions to the addiction crisis, and I saw a 428 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: lot of books there, a lot of books written by celebrities, journalists, 429 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: very good books that taught a lot about the problem, 430 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: But I was looking for more of a prescription for 431 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: how do we get out of the crisis? What do 432 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: we do? And guess what, I had a really hard 433 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: time finding that book. In fact, it didn't exist. And 434 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: I came home that night and I looked at my 435 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: roommate with frustration and said, we still have a tall 436 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: hill to climb in terms of getting solutions out into 437 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: the market, and couldn't find this book. And he said, well, 438 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: why don't you start writing about the trip. Why don't 439 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: you start writing about the people that we met on 440 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: the trip and the things that they're doing in their communities, 441 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: because those are real solutions. Those solutions are coming from 442 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: the grass roots. They're not coming from the federal government. 443 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: They're coming from the ground up. And I thought he 444 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: was crazy. I said, I have no idea how to 445 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: write a book. I have nowhere to start. And he said, 446 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: why don't you just try? And so I put some 447 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: thoughts on paper and ended up sending a proposal to 448 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: a few of the big publishers, and one of them 449 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: got back to me, Saint Martin's Press and Gentleman By 450 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: the name of Adam Bellow, who publishes a lot of 451 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: great books. And Adam said, I'm interested in this book. 452 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: My daughter works in a methodone clinic. My editorial assistant 453 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: just lost his older brother to an overdose a couple 454 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: of weeks ago. This is different. You're talking about solutions, 455 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: and you're talking about community based solutions, and we'd like 456 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: to publish the book. And we're not going to tell 457 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: you what to put in it. We want you to 458 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: write the story that needs to be written and we'll 459 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: publish it. And that's how American Fix came to life. 460 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: And it was a prescription for actions that people can 461 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: take in their local communities to push policymakers in the 462 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: right direction. I must have given you a great sense 463 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: of satisfaction when you held the first copy it did. 464 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: I remember crying. I remember talking to my mom. I 465 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: think the level of personal satisfaction was fascinating, But the 466 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: real satisfaction came from the fact that a publisher like 467 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: Saint Martin's or McMillan, or a book like this would 468 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: be on the bookshelves that was talking about things that 469 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: people could be doing. That the narrative was starting to 470 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: change as opposed to blaming bowl who have had an 471 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: addiction or suffered and really starting to look to them 472 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: for things that we could be doing to combat this 473 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: devastating crisis. So you go from there though too, I 474 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: think one of the greater scandals of recent times, and 475 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: that's the whole Purdue Pharma story, and you write Unsettled, 476 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: how the Purdue Pharma bankruptcy failed the victims of the 477 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: American overdose crisis. Oxycotton really is a product of Purdue Pharma. 478 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: They patented it in nineteen ninety six, and it's really 479 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: interesting the whole history of oxycotton, the relationship to the regulators, 480 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: the relationship to the medical community. Because I think it's 481 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: a very important story, and we really wanted to do 482 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: a podcast talking with you about Purdue and the way 483 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: in which Purdue operated. When you think of criminals, criminals 484 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: that got us to where we're at today and kind 485 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: of the tap root of this modern day overdose crisis, 486 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: you've got to talk about Purdue Pharma and the Sackler 487 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: family individually. So Purdue changed the narrative the game really 488 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: when it came to getting these potentially lethal drugs into 489 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: the medicine cabinets. They weaponize the American medicine cabinet. They 490 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: figured out a way to market oxycotton, just like we 491 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: market our McDonald's hamburgers or Coca Cola. But the way 492 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: they marketed it was they lied. They lied to the 493 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: American public through miss branding, through what's called the delayed 494 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: absorption black box statement, where they were able to make 495 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: a claim with the FDA saying that oxycotton really didn't 496 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: really have an abuse potential to it, and they gas 497 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: lit the country. What I experienced back in the two 498 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: thousands in that pill clinic was the direct result of 499 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: Purdue's efforts and strategies that were developed by the Sackler family. 500 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: It was to get as many people on this medication 501 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: as possible, utilizing a lie that they were able to 502 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: get co signed by the FDA, and to incentivize doctors 503 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: to prescribe, prescribe, prescribe, and prescribe more, even if somebody 504 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: was displaying symptoms of withdrawal. The answer was to give 505 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: them more, not give them less or get them help. 506 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: Perdue actually pled guilty for the first time in two 507 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: thousand and seven to federal crimes. Three executives pled guilty 508 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: to federal crimes. You could think of a perfect world 509 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: where in two thousand and seven, all of this went 510 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: away and Purdue cleaned up their mess and they did 511 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: things differently, and we wouldn't be where we're at today. 512 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: But instead they doubled down, they kept doing what they 513 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: were doing, and now we're looking down the barrel of 514 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: an overdose crisis that is going to be very hard 515 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: to rewind or to curb. The Sackler family, I believe, 516 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: will go down in history as one of the chief 517 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: corporate culprits of this man made disaster around prescription drug overdoses. 518 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: The fact that they are going to walk away from 519 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: this with no criminal charges and basically a slap on 520 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: the wrist, is an insult to every single victim, every 521 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: single family member who experienced the destruction of their product. 522 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: I was led to the advocacy against the Sackler family 523 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: and against Purdue because I started to learn more and 524 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: more about the roots of the crisis in my early 525 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: days of advocacy. In twenty eighteen, I hosted the largest 526 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: ever protest in front of the company with over five 527 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: hundred families and individuals who were impacted and because of 528 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: American Fix and my advocacy against the Sacklers and against 529 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: Purdue and trying to hold them accountable and getting them 530 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: to divest their massive multibillion dollar profits to start paying 531 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,479 Speaker 1: for treatment and recovery supports for communities devastated by their product. 532 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: The Department of Justice kind of singled me out, and 533 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: I was able to get an appointment to this committee, 534 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: the Unsecured Creditors Committee, that served as kind of a 535 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: megaplaniff in the Purdue bankruptcy in September of twenty nineteen. 536 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,479 Speaker 1: But what I thought newt going into the process was 537 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: that the state attorneys general and the district attorneys, and 538 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: companies and victims and families, we were all on the 539 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: same side versus Purdue and the Sacklers. What I learned 540 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: going into the process, though, was something completely different. That 541 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: this bankruptcy was not about facts, It was not about evidence, 542 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: It was not about right or wrong, or writing pass wrongs. 543 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: It was about money and an extraordinary amount of money 544 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: and power, and victims were sidelined and left behind every 545 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: step of the way. It will go down as one 546 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: of the most colossal failures in public health that this 547 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: country has ever seen. In my opinion, these people apparently 548 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: knew that they were making their profit off of a 549 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: process that was killing Americans. Yes, they knew, yes, and 550 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: they just went ahead and did it. And they're still rich. 551 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: And they didn't go to jail, and they didn't go 552 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: to jail. They went ahead and they did it. They're 553 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: not going to jail. Not one single member of the 554 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,959 Speaker 1: Sackler family has ever been indicted, has ever sat for 555 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: a grand jury. There's fifty Attorneys general in the United 556 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: States who participated in this bankruptcy, who have the police 557 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: power to charge them with the crime. They have not 558 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: done that. The United States Department of Justice today has 559 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: yet has yet to charge them with any crime whatsoever. 560 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: No United States attorney has. It is maddening. I know 561 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: people who are sitting in prison for low level possession 562 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: charges around marijuana and like other small drug crimes, who 563 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: are going to serve longer sentences than anything the Sacklers 564 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: ever will have to serve. And the settlement the four 565 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: and a half billion dollars that they're putting in towards 566 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,439 Speaker 1: the bankruptcy the family, they get to pay that out 567 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: over nine years and they will get a civil release, 568 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: which means they can't get sued for anything specific to 569 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: the opioid crisis up until current day. They will actually 570 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,240 Speaker 1: come out of paying that settlement after nine years based 571 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: on their investments and their interest rates, that they have 572 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: richer than they today after paying the settlement. So they'll 573 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: be able to pay the four and a half billion 574 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: dollars back and net a billion dollars on top of 575 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: it at the end of nine years. If they don't 576 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: work another day in their life, it is just insanity. 577 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: So it was just great lawyers on their partner. How 578 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: did we get to this kind of what, at least 579 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: on the surface to an outsider looks like an absolute 580 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice. The system was really set up this 581 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: way from the very beginning. The bankruptcy system in this country, 582 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: I believe through this experience, is fundamentally flawed and needs 583 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: extraordinary reform. It was built to favor them. You bring 584 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 1: up lawyers, Yes, they had tremendous lawyers. If you want 585 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: to ask me who really came out of the Purdue 586 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: Farm of bankruptcy on top, it's the lawyers, lawyers and 587 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: consultants in the Purdue Farm of bankruptcy, less than one 588 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: thousand of them. When this is all said and done, 589 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: will collect to one point five billion dollars in fees. 590 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: One point five billion dollars in fees. Do you know 591 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: how much money the victims of purduced crimes will collect? 592 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: One hundred and thirty thousand victims families who lost loved 593 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: ones to oxycotton and overdoses, they will have to share 594 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: in a pool of seven hundred and fifty million dollars, 595 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 1: an average payout of five thousand dollars per family if 596 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: they are lucky. The lawyers are the only ones to 597 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: come out on top coming out of the Purdue bankruptcy. 598 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: It is a system that needs radical reform. I mean, 599 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: that's all I can say. I hope that Congress can 600 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: get their act together and start to address bankruptcy reform 601 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: because we're going to keep seeing the abuses of this 602 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: bankruptcy system unless there's some sort of reform to it. 603 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: And also this isn't popular on my side of the 604 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 1: dirt sometimes on politics, but tort reform as well, because 605 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: I believe there were extraordinary abuses there in this case 606 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: as well. And this really bothers me deeply because, like you, 607 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: I know people who have died and people whose lives 608 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 1: have been ruined and yet the Center for Disease Control 609 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: announced that between April twenty twenty and April twenty twenty one, 610 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: over one hundred thousand people died of overdoses. If you 611 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: could wave a policy magic wand what would you do 612 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: to break out of the fentanyl oxycotton, heroin, cocaine cycle 613 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: that we seem to be caught up in right now? 614 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 1: If I could wave a magic wand, I would say 615 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: equitable access to addiction treatment, recovery supports, and effective prevention 616 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: measures for every single American who needs them. I would 617 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: just like to say it is important for folks listening 618 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: to realize that that's just drug overdose. If you include 619 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: deaths by alcohol overdose into that, we're probably looking close 620 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: sort of five to six hundred thousand Americans who died 621 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: last year. That's just drug overdose we've had, I don't know, 622 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: depending on what data you look at seven to eight 623 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: hundred thousand COVID deaths in the United States. If you're 624 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 1: just used the drug overdose numbers, for every seven or 625 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: eight COVID deaths reported COVID deaths, you have one to 626 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 1: two drug overdose deaths. Yet federal investment into combating overdoses 627 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: in this country is seven hundred times less than COVID, 628 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: over two and a half trillion dollars spent on COVID, 629 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,439 Speaker 1: yet we get peanuts for investment into real public health 630 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 1: resources to combat overdose. And I asked the question why, 631 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: because if we had a fraction of that response, that 632 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: type of like urgent federal response towards addressing overdoses in 633 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: this country, I think we could fix this problem. But 634 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: it requires urgency and it requires action, and we just 635 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: haven't seen that urgency or action from states, from the 636 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: federal government, or from localities. We could do a lot 637 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: with a little bit of money, but we can't even 638 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: get a little bit of money. I agree with you, 639 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 1: and as you know, I've worked with my daughter Kathy Lubbers, 640 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: and she's worked with some great people at the Zone 641 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 1: and Mariotta Georgia and is deeply committed on this issue. 642 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: And I think it is as tragic that we have 643 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: not taken seriously. And of course we've come at it 644 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: five or six times, but the culture almost repels us. 645 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: I mean, if we were to try to have the 646 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: same intensity of testing and the same intensity of identification 647 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: for drug use that we had for COVID. I think 648 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: the country would erupt. I think we'd have a substantial 649 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: number of Hollywood stars in absolute rebellion if we cut 650 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: off cocaine, for example. But as I want to really 651 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: thank you first of all for your honesty about what 652 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: you've lived through and the hope you give an audience 653 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: by knowing that somebody can come through this valley and 654 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: can end up being a really important, contributing member of society. 655 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: I also want to thank you for the work you're 656 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: doing as an advocate. We need more people like you 657 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: who can advocate for recovery and who have an eye 658 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: witness approach. And I do think you're making an impact 659 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: on people's lives. I think making us aware both of 660 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: the challenge of addiction, the challenge of lifelong recovery, and 661 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: also the great weaknesses in our system today. And I 662 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: also want to mention that we have a link to 663 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: buy your new book Unsettled How to Produe pharm of 664 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: Bankruptcy Failed the Victims of the American Overdose Crisis on 665 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,919 Speaker 1: our show page. And I hope with all that you're 666 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 1: doing that you will take time and have a wonderful holiday. 667 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 1: And I think you've learned the right to really truly 668 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: enjoy the Christmas season. Thank you you, and I'll be 669 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 1: spending it with my mom this year. I've been seen 670 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: her in two years. Really excited and thank you for 671 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: your efforts on this issue as well. We're thank you 672 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: to my guests, Ryan Hampton. We have a link to 673 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: buy his new book un Settled, How the Purdue Pharma 674 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: bankruptcy failed the victims of the American overdose Crisis on 675 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced 676 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:26,280 Speaker 1: by gingwistreet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, 677 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: our producer is Garnsey Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 678 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Pendley. 679 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty. If 680 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 681 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 682 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 683 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 684 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at Gingwish three sixty dot com 685 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingwidge. This is a NEWTS World.