1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. This episode contains 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: descriptions of sexual assault listener discretion as advised, run. 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: Away, you already to right to the end of the line. 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 2: No one need staying, No Onelllow believe in the path 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: only line. 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 3: Sunni album. 7 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: That's Jessica Willis Fisher singing from her beautiful song River Runaway. 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to part one of Jessica's story, 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: do that now and then come back for more of 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: this powerful, harrowing, and ultimately deeply inspiring story. I'm Danny Shapiro, 11 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: and this is family Secrets. The secrets that are kept 12 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 13 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. Secrets will eventually spill out. 14 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes it takes generations, Sometimes it takes decades. Sometimes it 15 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: takes minutes. Jessica's book is called Unspeakable for a reason. 16 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: When it comes to the horrible truths for father's abuse, 17 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: she simply cannot speak it. It's impossible. Her siblings aren't 18 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: speaking it, and certainly her father isn't either. And it's 19 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: only those few times her mother alludes to it before 20 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: it's tucked away again and As the family extends, so 21 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: does the scope of this secret. One of Jessica's brothers 22 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: is about to get married to a woman named Maria. 23 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: He says to Jessica one day Maria knows. A little 24 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: bit later, Jessica falls in love too. She and Sean 25 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: become involved when they're teenagers, building a romantic connection. She 26 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: doesn't divulge right away to Sean what's happened to her, 27 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: but she does begin to wonder, how can I completely 28 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 1: connect with this person if he doesn't know the truth. 29 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 4: So this dreadful inevitability of kind of being on this 30 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 4: collision course. 31 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: How long are secrets like this going to be containable? 32 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 4: And the biggest threat to that is, yes, as we 33 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 4: get older, there's the personal connections that we try to 34 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 4: make as individuals, and then you know, as we're performing 35 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 4: and stuff, there's just this bigger and bigger microscope, bigger 36 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,119 Speaker 4: and bigger platform where there's this more and more awareness 37 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 4: and how are we going to kind of be able 38 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 4: to balance that? And my brother became engaged and it 39 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 4: was actually during my late teenage years that I was 40 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 4: trying to figure out how to have a relationship. But 41 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 4: it was this disillusionment over time, realizing, oh, my dad 42 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 4: really is never going to let me go. And I 43 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 4: think I realized how deep that was in me by 44 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 4: realizing I never imagine getting married. Some part of me 45 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 4: knew like, that's probably never going to happen for me, 46 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 4: but of course I desperately wanted that. 47 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: When Jessica's in her early twenties, she and Sean have 48 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: not had sex, but their relationship is certainly sexual. She 49 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: sends him some partially clad selfies and they're on her computer, 50 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: and one day one of her little sisters discovers these 51 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: selfies through the lens of all she's been taught at 52 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: home and at church. She's confused and traumatized by these photos, 53 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: unsure of why Jessa and Sean have been communicating this way. 54 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 4: I was secretly talking with him, and I don't think 55 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 4: any healthy relationship is built on secrets. You know, how 56 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 4: is it supposed to be healthy? And you are sexually developing, 57 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,679 Speaker 4: you are all of these things, but there's my religious 58 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 4: teachings and this very drastic logistical thing around me, and 59 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 4: so you know, we were digitally communicating. We're both young adults, 60 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 4: were both in our early twenties and when my sister 61 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 4: saw that, I just knew how much more so, like 62 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 4: this train is about to slow motion crash, you know, 63 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 4: and there's no way for me to really wiggle out 64 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 4: of this. And I was like, here, I am traumatizing 65 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 4: like a child because this is so confusing. And I 66 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 4: was just like, please let me tell mom and dad, 67 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 4: and I promised her kind. 68 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 3: Of that it was going to be okay. 69 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 4: And I had this awareness, like this deep guilt of 70 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 4: feeling like I'm an adult telling a child that's all 71 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 4: going to be okay. And I also know that this 72 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 4: is not going to be okay, and I think I 73 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 4: genuinely meant to go tell my parents and I didn't. 74 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 3: I played it out. 75 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 4: It lasted a couple more weeks before basically it came 76 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 4: out and they found out. I did not just go, 77 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 4: you know what, this is wrong and like stand up 78 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 4: and rebel. I basically folded and accepted that. You know, 79 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 4: of course, a part of me, there were so many 80 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 4: different parts of me feeling different things, but as far 81 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 4: as my behaviors, I was like, yes, I am sinful, 82 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 4: I am wrong. And it got turned into kind of 83 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 4: even though we don't talk about Dad's problems here you are, 84 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 4: you clearly have problems, and he's the one in charge. 85 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 4: You're the child, you need to be disciplined. And it 86 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 4: started this weird chapter where I was the problem in 87 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 4: the family and it created this mob like mentality where 88 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 4: you know, I had to be managed, the kids had 89 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 4: to be protected from me, My actions had to be monitored, 90 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 4: and it was really my soul at stake here. Dad 91 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 4: was like, you know, she's she's being led astray by 92 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 4: the devil, and parts of me resisted, but it felt 93 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 4: too much. I was going against the whole entire system, 94 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 4: all of my siblings, both my parents, and I had 95 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 4: to keep up this outer shtick and roll and smile 96 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 4: on stage, and inside it was I was losing my 97 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 4: sanity bit by bit. 98 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so painful, this like level of control and surveillance. 99 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 4: It's cultish because it's the mind control. It's the bounded 100 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 4: choice theory, where it's like I share with people that 101 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,679 Speaker 4: there is this time where and I have a video 102 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 4: of it. And sometimes I'm so thankful for that video, 103 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 4: because otherwise I would doubt that this happened. But there's proof, 104 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 4: and sometimes I need that proof to even be able 105 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 4: to believe my memories of these moments, but it's this 106 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 4: kind of kangaroo court scene where you know, Dad is 107 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 4: telling me I have to claim my master, and he's saying, 108 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 4: I already know you're following singe, but you have to 109 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 4: confess it, you know, And so think inquisition, think whatever 110 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 4: worst version of that cult leader and control mob sort 111 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 4: of thing. And it was in that moment that I 112 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 4: realized that this was an escalation of dynamics that had 113 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 4: been here forever. 114 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: There were moments. 115 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 4: Where I would pile on a sibling who was stepping 116 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 4: out of line, but now how could I protest that 117 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 4: without being so hypocritical and taking it spiritually? I would 118 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 4: sometimes open the Bible, which was so troubling to me, 119 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 4: and I've had such conflicting thoughts, but their scripture that 120 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 4: says if you do not forgive others, God will not 121 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 4: forgive you. And so it felt like I was trying 122 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 4: to find the courage and the foothold to finally like say, Dad, 123 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 4: you're wrong. The main problem here is what you've been 124 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 4: doing all this time. But unfortunately I had taken steps that, 125 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 4: according to what I believed, was also wrong. So it 126 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 4: was this, who are you to talk sort of thing, 127 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 4: and it was just really a crazy making situation. 128 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 3: For sure. 129 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. One night on tour, a set 130 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: of blue flashing lights head toward the Fisher Family tour bus, 131 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: which is pulled over on the side of the road. 132 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: Jessica's father has been violently striking her in the face, 133 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: but now a cop is here. If a cop sees 134 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: what's really going on, maybe Jessica and her siblings will 135 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: be rescued, will be safe. But that's not what happens. 136 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 4: He pulled the bus over, he continued to attack me, 137 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 4: and a cop had pulled over. It was just the 138 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 4: wildest feeling, so surreal, so weird. 139 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 3: I was just. 140 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 4: So terrified for my life. I was basically an animal mode. 141 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: You know. 142 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 4: I didn't know if this was a moment where his 143 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 4: violence would lead to someone dying, if that would be me, 144 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 4: if that would have made me happy. You know, I 145 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 4: really kind of think that moment. One of the things 146 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 4: I remember thinking is I just wish I wasn't here, 147 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 4: because if you follow that I'm the problem, believe all 148 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 4: the way to its end, it's you know, everybody would 149 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 4: be better off if I wasn't here. You know, the 150 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 4: cop comes to the door essentially, and I don't even 151 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 4: need to be forced into the closet or or out 152 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 4: from you. I just kind of like a zombie go 153 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 4: hide myself because one of my coping mechanisms was always 154 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 4: on a dime, being able to smile, being able to 155 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 4: pull it off. 156 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 3: But you can't. 157 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 4: You can't do that when you're bleeding. You can't do 158 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 4: that when your face is hanging weird. My body was 159 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 4: going to betray me, and it just felt so out 160 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 4: of control. 161 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 3: And as you. 162 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 4: Hear this person says, there's everybody okay, you know, it's like, well, 163 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 4: everybody was just screaming. 164 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 3: Maybe they're not going to be able to pull it off. 165 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 4: But no, there's this oh yeah, everything's fine, and just 166 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 4: it was the depths of depression and despair because I 167 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 4: was realizing I was still waiting. 168 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 3: For permission. 169 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 4: To ask for help, for permission to be believed, to 170 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 4: be rescued, all of these things, and it was not 171 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 4: going to come. And the heaviest thing was it is 172 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 4: escalating so fast and my actual bodily safety is fleeing. 173 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 4: I may die here, and I don't know if I 174 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 4: have what it takes to get out. I'm the only one, like, 175 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 4: nobody's coming. If I don't figure out how to get 176 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 4: out of here, I'm going to die here. And I 177 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 4: just at that moment wasn't sure it was even worth it, 178 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 4: Like what am I escaping too? 179 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 3: This is my family. 180 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 4: I knew Sean at the time, and I part of 181 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 4: me wanted to be in that relationship, but I hadn't 182 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 4: fought for it, so maybe that wasn't even waiting for me. 183 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 3: You know. 184 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 4: I had to believe that I was worth, that I 185 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 4: had value, that I deserved to be safe, and that 186 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 4: just felt like so far away and so impossible. It 187 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 4: was a dark couple months there, and chunks that are 188 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 4: kind of missing. But I gave in and didn't protest 189 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 4: and kind of took the sin on my shoulders for 190 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: that period and accepted all those negative, you know, judgments 191 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 4: of me. When I just kind of went, Okay, I surrender, 192 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 4: I give up, I realized, well, actually, no, I'm no 193 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 4: longer resisting that. But some part of me cannot do 194 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 4: the dance and smile and be happy. 195 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 3: That part's broken. 196 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 4: But I can't really execute complete nothingness either, Like there's 197 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: still a part of me that wants to survive and 198 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 4: that kind of made its way to the surface. 199 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 3: But there was just this normal day. 200 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 4: It could have been any other horrible day during the 201 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 4: dark period, but there's an altercation with my dad, and 202 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 4: something in me went, that is the last time that happens. 203 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 4: And it wasn't the question, it wasn't the theological statement. 204 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 4: It just went, that is not happening again. And it 205 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 4: almost felt like something outside of me. I now kind 206 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 4: of actually view it, maybe from the core of me. 207 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 4: I think little invisible girl that had borne all of. 208 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 3: This time's up. That's it. I'm not putting up with 209 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 3: any more of this. 210 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 4: I had sort of been learning about some narcissism and 211 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 4: talk about vocabulary. I was trying to get the vocabulary 212 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 4: to describe twenty years of confusing traumatic experience. So there 213 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 4: were these glimpses of clarity of Oh, I actually know 214 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 4: what's happening here. I can see some of these dynamics, 215 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 4: and I would do more of that before too long, 216 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 4: but I knew he could keep me forever. I finally 217 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 4: had this moment of oh, the chances are in your mind, 218 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 4: they're not actually on the door. 219 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 3: Most of the time. You know, like you can run. 220 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 3: It is completely reasonable that you can run. And so 221 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 3: when I just. 222 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 4: Had that knowing of that's the last time that's going 223 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 4: to happen. I'm not going to be here by the 224 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 4: end of the day. I'm not sure exactly how. And 225 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 4: so it was well, what are you going to do? 226 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 4: Where are you going to go? And I was like, 227 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 4: give me a phone. And if they had said no, 228 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 4: you know, maybe I would have ran that night under 229 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 4: cover of darkness when I found a chance. 230 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 3: But they handed me a phone and I thought, Okay, 231 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 3: who can I call? 232 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 4: And I called my dad's cousin who was around my age, 233 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 4: and I just said, can I come, Can I come 234 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 4: see you? 235 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 3: And she said sure, and I said can I bring 236 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 3: a bag? She said sure. 237 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 4: It's like trying to climb this wall, so you get 238 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 4: a foothold and it enables you to get to the 239 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 4: next So that told me I knew I was going 240 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 4: to get out today because if I didn't show up, 241 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 4: other people outside my family were going to wonder. So 242 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 4: then I had that foothold, and then it was like, well, 243 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 4: when are you going to go? 244 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 3: What are you going to take? 245 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 4: And my dad, he'd never really been in this position, 246 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 4: and he did all he could to make sure he 247 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 4: felt as in control all the situation as possible, and 248 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 4: he framed it to the family that I had to 249 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 4: leave my choices. We're going to reflect badly on the family. 250 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 4: So he was pushing me out. And that's another kind 251 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 4: of before and after a moment where I think it 252 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 4: could have gone so many different ways, but everything changed 253 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 4: really fast after that from that moment. 254 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: It's interesting too, because there's something in there about the 255 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: power of language and the power of naming things. Sean 256 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: gives you this book that really describes what you know. 257 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: Pathological narcissism is what it looks like, and that's the 258 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: first time it's sort of like the word molested earlier, 259 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: something clicks for you, where as like that day might 260 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: not have been all that different from any other day, 261 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: but the thing that was finally the last straw that 262 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: said no more has something to do with the arsenal 263 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: of language that you had. 264 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 4: Now I believe that, and it's astounding how little it 265 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 4: can take sometimes you know, just a few more words, 266 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 4: because how would you actually feel if you were angry 267 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 4: all the time but you didn't even have the word 268 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 4: anger or any of his adjacent words, Like there's all 269 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 4: this built up pressure and experience and like a lot 270 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 4: of times very visceral feelings and there's no way to 271 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 4: express it. And so certainly the emotional build up and 272 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 4: back up and just years of events. And for me 273 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 4: it was helpful is there were a lots lots of 274 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 4: events that I still needed to sort through, lots of 275 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 4: feelings I needed to sort through. But when you see 276 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 4: the dynamics and you see the pattern, and you see 277 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 4: the way things are related to each other, concepts like narcissism, dissociation, 278 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 4: high control groups, things like that, I started seeing, Oh, 279 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 4: my goodness, that's what I'm in right now. And yes, 280 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 4: it's also in my family. Yes it's happened over years 281 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 4: and years, and there's religion in here, and there's TV, 282 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 4: and there's all these things. 283 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 3: But those surface things didn't matter as much. 284 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 4: The specifics don't matter. When you look at the patterns 285 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 4: of grooming, or when you look at the patterns of 286 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 4: abuse and violence, you notice that you can start to 287 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 4: see the pillars that hold up how that all works, 288 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 4: and if you disrupt that pattern, you just stop playing 289 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 4: into that pattern. And to some degree, it's quite fragile 290 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 4: and realizing that my dad. 291 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 3: Had all this power, but what power did he really have? 292 00:16:57,920 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 3: He kind of. 293 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 4: Got it from all of us, yes, and trying to 294 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 4: understand that, you know, when you're preyed on by such 295 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 4: toxic narcissism, to remove the fuel, to remove giving my 296 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 4: power over to prop up him. I had gotten to 297 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 4: a point where the show couldn't really go on very 298 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 4: well without me, and it put a lot of stress 299 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 4: on my siblings that I would have loved to save 300 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 4: them from. But there was kind of this awareness that 301 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 4: I at least had at that moment, like looking at 302 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 4: my dad, like, yeah, you have the power, but all I. 303 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 3: Have to do is step away, and you like, you 304 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 3: can't do anything to me anymore. What you've done to 305 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 3: me is what I've let you do to me. 306 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: Jessica and Sean finally get together for real. Jessica finds 307 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: a really good trauma informed therapist, and she begins to 308 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: learn the language of trauma, dissociation, compartmentalization, hypervigilance, putting words 309 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: to experience she's been living inside her body for decades. 310 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: She also hears a phrase for her therapist when she 311 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: finally shares the scope of everything that has happened to 312 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: her child rape Jessica had desperately wanted this to not 313 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: be the case, but it is the case. The definition 314 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: of child rape fits into the parameters of what her 315 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: father has done to her. She is twenty four years old, 316 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: she has no academic degree of any kind, since she's 317 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: only ever been homeschooled, But what she does have is strength, love, 318 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: the help she needs, and the knowledge that she is 319 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: finally safe. 320 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 4: This story is not the same without that support. It 321 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 4: was just a marvel and it didn't really compute to 322 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 4: me people who, for all practical purposes, didn't know me, 323 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 4: you know. And certainly there was this compulsion to try 324 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 4: to share, because how can you really be close, how 325 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 4: can you really cleanse the moon. 326 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 3: Without just getting it all out there? 327 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 4: But I was I was doing that in therapy, and 328 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 4: I was trying to, you know, get to know my 329 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 4: husband and now my in laws, and they're welcoming community 330 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 4: that just opened their arms to me. I was in 331 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 4: a bad spot and I got so much help, and 332 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 4: I know that doesn't happen for everyone. I just don't 333 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 4: think you can separate my health journey and my recovery 334 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 4: and everything from how critical really good trauma informed therapy 335 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 4: really accepting. 336 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 3: And loving people. 337 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 4: And between those two things, I was also directed towards 338 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 4: places where my therapy could be funded, you know, because 339 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 4: I don't have my feet under me and you're trying 340 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 4: to start our new life. It felt like, all right, 341 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 4: I got away with my life. I'm going to try 342 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 4: to start over. And as I'm learning and acquiring the 343 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 4: vocabulary to understand what happened to me, whether it be 344 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 4: learning that child rape did apply to me or oh, 345 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 4: dissociation like that, so that means I was also learning 346 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 4: about predators and perpetrators. Because the work that we immediately 347 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 4: jumped into is like, where do you start. There's there's 348 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 4: twenty four years to address, and the newer, most recent 349 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 4: stuff with the tendencies and that the mob meant and 350 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 4: all that felt like not the place to start. So 351 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 4: we just I just went to when I was youngest, 352 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 4: when it was clearest, when it's so obviously not my fault, 353 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 4: and to understand, hey, this is how this happens. 354 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 3: Many other people have gone through this. 355 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 4: It was devastating and yet relieving and so empowering all 356 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 4: the same time because I was able to move so 357 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 4: quickly and there was less, you know, judgment to myself 358 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 4: that would come up for my teenage self and my 359 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 4: young adult self, but as my child self. That was 360 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 4: really helpful to learn about other victims and survivors, and 361 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 4: also to understand that it wasn't a problem of my 362 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 4: dad or me as a daughter, like what's wrong with me? 363 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 4: Understanding that this happens over and over and there is 364 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 4: a pattern, and we have words that conscribe these things. 365 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 4: And it became very chilling, very quick. This is no 366 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 4: longer just my dad or my abuser, but this is 367 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 4: a perpetrator that is out there, and so I'm doing 368 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 4: my best to just get my feet underbeed do this 369 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 4: extremely excruciating, heavy therapeutic work which is going to be 370 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 4: a lifetime effort, but very quickly, you know, within weeks, 371 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 4: especially as my therapist came to understand more, as I 372 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 4: shared more with her, she was very aware it is 373 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 4: a very dangerous situation, you know, And I would basically 374 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 4: came to realize I was kind of needing to prepare 375 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 4: to play a part and if this was ever going 376 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 4: to stop, I was gonna have to talk about this, 377 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 4: and you know, Sean and different people would ask me 378 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 4: like can you report this? 379 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 3: So you're ready to tell you. 380 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 4: They were trying to be respectful and not force that 381 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 4: on me because they knew I needed to try to 382 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 4: get a sense of control and ownership over my body 383 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 4: and my story and my experience. 384 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 3: You know. 385 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 4: The longer time went on, the more I could see 386 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 4: that not that this whole thing is my fault, but 387 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 4: it may be on me to stop this. 388 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 3: And it's becoming. 389 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 4: More and more of this moral weight that every day 390 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 4: I don't do something, you know, if nothing else. I mean, 391 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 4: hopefully my dad isn't preying on my sisters at this moment, 392 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 4: but they're out in front of people selling a lie 393 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 4: that is, you know, what was on the surface is 394 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 4: totally not what was happening behind closed doors. And it 395 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 4: was a real headspin to try to get the courage, 396 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 4: and you just want to hide escape, but you feel 397 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 4: like you have this huge responsibility. 398 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 399 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: The initial report about Jessica's father is phoned into a 400 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: hotline at the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, and it is 401 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: not made by Jessica, but rather by someone close to 402 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: her family who had always suspected that something was terribly amiss. 403 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: In the Willis household, Jessica is called in to give 404 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: a statement. Within twenty four hours, an investigation is launched. 405 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 4: There are so many agents involved. It really very quickly 406 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 4: was like, well, will someone speak firsthand to this? 407 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 3: Will Jessica talk or not? 408 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 4: And I was very much willing and went in with 409 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 4: the headspace of feeling like, you know, I'm actually more 410 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 4: scared about how this could go down. When you start 411 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 4: looking at perpetrators, even serial killers like cult leaders, when 412 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 4: you get them cornered, it gets really dangerous really fast. 413 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 4: And because of how it looked on the outside, I 414 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 4: honestly was afraid that people were not going to understand 415 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 4: the gravity of the situation. So my thought going in 416 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 4: to this interview once I said yes to it, was 417 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 4: I have to say as much as I can, as 418 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 4: fast as I can, and stress to them how bad 419 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 4: I basically have to roll out the greatest hits of 420 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 4: the worst things that I've ever seen and have ever 421 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 4: happened to me. 422 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 3: And you know, they were there. 423 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 4: To see if I was going to say that any 424 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 4: sexual crimes had happened, but I was like, okay, you know, 425 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 4: there's violence, bankings, and there's religious teachings, and there's six 426 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 4: ar fifteens, and there's end times profits. 427 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 3: You know. 428 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 4: So I'm saying all this crazy, like not very organized stuff, 429 00:24:59,000 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 4: but they kept bringing. 430 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 3: It back to like, okay, did this happen? Like what happened? 431 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 3: How old were you? Where were you? 432 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 4: And you know, so in describing the sexual crimes, like 433 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 4: you would touch me here and this and that, and 434 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 4: they asked the best questions they can and just saying, 435 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 4: you know, oh, did this happen like two times or 436 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 4: five times or ten times? I was like, no, like 437 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 4: a hundred times. I can't even tell you how many 438 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 4: times this is. This is the least drastic thing, Like 439 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 4: I understand it's a crime, and I'm in therapy and 440 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 4: I'm finally coming to understand just how bad this is. 441 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 3: But that's the base. 442 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 4: We're going to add everything else on top of that. 443 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 4: I was feeling all sorts of things, but even just 444 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 4: to say that out loud, oh yeah, that happened hundreds 445 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 4: of times, there's a part of me that was kind 446 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 4: of just shocked by even hearing me say that, because 447 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 4: there's so much to grieve, so much to acknowledge, so 448 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 4: much to sit with, you know, twenty four years of 449 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 4: reaction that have never had their proper time. 450 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 3: But there was no time for that, you know. 451 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 4: It was on to the next thing, trying to paint, 452 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 4: not to exaggerate. But I finished talking for hours, and 453 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 4: I thought, did I forget the one thing that's actually 454 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 4: going to make this change and make this stop? And 455 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 4: it took me a while to understand that that was 456 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 4: connected to me thinking I must have not said it 457 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 4: right when everythings didn't stop. Eventually you come back to 458 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 4: blaming yourself and saying, well, I'm the problem. And so 459 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 4: even sitting there in that investigation room and talking to 460 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 4: these professionals, it was like, have I done enough. 461 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: Jessica's father is arrested. He pleads guilty. Jessica is, of course, 462 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: completely on edge until the moment of our father's sentencing. 463 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: He'll be in prison for most of the rest of 464 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: his life. He has gotten away with so much for 465 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: so long long, and now he is finally being brought 466 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: to justice for all the pain, havoc and abuse he 467 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: has wrought. And just as her father loses his freedom, 468 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: Jessica begins to gain her own. Sean asks Jessica for 469 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: her hand in marriage, and she decides there's something she 470 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: still needs to share with him. For the case, she 471 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: had written a fourteen page letter detailing, to the best 472 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: of her ability and memory, everything that her father had 473 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: done to her. This letter is used in her testimony, 474 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: and while she's let Sean into some degree, she hasn't 475 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: shared all the details, all the horror, in all its granularity, 476 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: But she wants to enter into a marriage in which 477 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: there are no more secrets, nothing hidden, only truth. 478 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 4: After I'd talked with TBI, I told him all I could, 479 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 4: and I actually asked she also something that I had 480 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 4: written be included that included some graphics, specifics of what 481 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 4: had happened over the years, just to make sure that 482 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 4: I was giving them all the information they needed. And 483 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 4: they did end up making their rest warrant from part 484 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 4: of my testimony, and you know, it didn't really feel 485 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 4: like an option. There was nothing that I was trying 486 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 4: to hold back. And in the days after that is 487 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 4: the investigations going on. You know, I'm looking at this 488 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 4: man that I love that is getting to know me, 489 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 4: and you know we had been kept from doing that 490 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 4: the normal way and dating and recording, and I'm having 491 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 4: to share the deepest, darkest, worst things that have ever 492 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 4: happened to me with people I don't know, complete strangers, 493 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 4: these investigators and therapists, And if he was willing, I 494 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 4: wanted to tell him, and I didn't want to force 495 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 4: him to hear that. But our relationship was built on 496 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 4: him sharing vulnerable things with me, and over time, you know, 497 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 4: me trusting that. Yes, it's always risky to open up 498 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 4: to someone, but I had literally lived on the edge 499 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 4: of a cliff my entire life, and I didn't want 500 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 4: to go in to a relationship where I was going 501 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 4: to be judged for that. I was done with having 502 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 4: those secrets and I lived in their power for so long. 503 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 4: I couldn't And again, he has his choice. He doesn't 504 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 4: have to share everything about his past. He had shared 505 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 4: some things to build that trust, but he said, yes, 506 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 4: I want to all read whatever someone else has to read. 507 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 4: And that was a big moment. You know, not a 508 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 4: lot of fanfare or anything, but you know, to see Sean, 509 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 4: this man that I love. And also even just having 510 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 4: talked to the investigators too, there's something about seeing a man, 511 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 4: this man that I personally love. And then in the 512 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 4: case of the investigator, someone I don't know but who 513 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 4: kind of fits all of those stereotypical, especially the way 514 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 4: I was raised, masculine, manly protector, you know, essentially the 515 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 4: dat that I would have wanted internally all this time, 516 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 4: and to see them take in my story and be 517 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 4: moved by it, grieved by it. But also part of 518 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 4: the proper reaction to this is anger and action, and 519 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 4: I think, especially as a woman, those things are a 520 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 4: lot of times taken away. 521 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 3: You have to be sweet, you have to be. 522 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 4: Kind, and you know, in my mind growing up, those 523 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 4: were the things that. 524 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 3: Men were allowed to do. 525 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 4: Men were allowed to get passionate about what should happen, 526 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 4: and to feel like I trusted that this investigator. 527 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 3: Was going to make this happen. 528 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,239 Speaker 4: And then to share in vulnerability with the person that 529 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 4: I'm coming to love and will eventually build a life with, 530 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:52,479 Speaker 4: like those were really big moments in this whole entire process. 531 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: Here's Jessica reading a passage from her memoir Unspeakable. Yes 532 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: she is speaking. 533 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 5: We had a small wedding ceremony. By the time I 534 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 5: stood prepared to walk myself down the aisle in front 535 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 5: of eighty some people on that drizzly spring day, there 536 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 5: was an anchor of calm underneath the butterflies. No one 537 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 5: there would be giving this woman away. When I was 538 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 5: halfway to Sean, he abandoned his post to meet me. 539 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 5: We walked the last few steps together. 540 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 3: We had already won, gone ahead of it. 541 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: The boy as the Crown Hsigan. It's a. 542 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Accour is 543 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 544 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 545 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 546 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 547 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: eight secret Z zero. That's the number zero. You can 548 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: also find me on Instagram at Danny Rider. And if 549 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: you'd like to know more about the story that inspired 550 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance And You're Not Alone. 551 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 2: I can't let you know. Leave my bottle with the 552 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: lost in fom jump. Don't und you're gone ahead, them 553 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 2: out before you look 554 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: Again.