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Speaker 1: Hey, it's Devin. Just the heads up. You may have

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Speaker 1: guessed from the title, but we're gonna be dealing with

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Speaker 1: some tough stuff in this episode. So if you want

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Speaker 1: to skip this one, we totally understand. I'm Manny, I'm Noah,

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Speaker 1: and this is Devin. And this is no such thing

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Speaker 1: the show where you said our arguments in yours. By

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Speaker 1: actually doing the research on today's episode, you go deep

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Speaker 1: inside the world of pedophile hunters.

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Speaker 2: No, there's no no such thing, no such thing, no

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Speaker 2: such thanks.

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Speaker 3: Such thank no touch.

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Speaker 1: Thank growing up. Did you'all watch the show To Catch

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Speaker 1: Your Predator?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Not?

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Speaker 2: Did I watch it? I mean I that was one

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Speaker 2: of my favorite shows.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was locked in.

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Speaker 5: I was pretty locked in.

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Speaker 4: They're online, they're at the door, and tonight they're on

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Speaker 4: this very beach in our latest to Catch a Predator investigation.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know, the Catcher Predator

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Speaker 1: was a show on NBC that ran in the mid

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Speaker 1: two thousands. It was hosted by this guy named Chris Hanson,

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Speaker 1: and he would work with these teams that would pretend

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Speaker 1: to be children online chatting with adults. They would invite

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Speaker 1: these guys over to their quote unquote house, which would

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Speaker 1: be outfitted with hitting cameras.

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Speaker 5: Someone in the driveway, someone in the driveway, The.

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Speaker 4: Team inside Datelines hidden camera house quickly moves into position.

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Speaker 1: They would have an actor pretending to be a child

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Speaker 1: telling the guys that, oh, come on in, and then

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Speaker 1: they would make some excuse to go in the back.

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Speaker 6: Hey, COWI I made you some sweet team a lot

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Speaker 6: throw this dyros.

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Speaker 1: Can't get up freak, and then Chris Hanson would come

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Speaker 1: out and confront these guys who thought they were there

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Speaker 1: to have sex with a child.

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Speaker 7: I need to tell you that I'm Chris Hansen with

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Speaker 7: Dateline NBC, and we're doing a story on adults who

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Speaker 7: meet teams online and then try to meet them in person.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps and you remember his favorite catchphrase.

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Speaker 2: Hello, have a seat?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Why don't you have a seat over here?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: Don't you have a seat there? And get comfortable for that?

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Speaker 7: Why don't you come out and have a seat real quick? Okay,

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Speaker 7: it's gonna take a few minutes. Why don't you have

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Speaker 7: a seat?

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Speaker 2: That line is so like, yeah, I think you're a

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Speaker 2: piece of shit. Yes, Like, why don't you have a seat?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? And now you're like it's like it's the ultimate,

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Speaker 1: like you were doing some bullshit and now you're caught. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what were your experiences like as kids watching this show? Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, did you think it was funny? Like what

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Speaker 1: was sort of a vibe?

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Speaker 2: Look, I'm a much different man than I today than

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Speaker 2: I was when I was twelve, but I was definitely

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Speaker 2: watching To Catch a Predator, you know, in a gleeful set,

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Speaker 2: in a way that's like, these guys are bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're catching them.

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Speaker 2: I'm allowed to laugh and have a good time.

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Speaker 1: Yes, because they're bad people.

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Speaker 2: Sure the call, Yeah, I don't think I would, you know,

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Speaker 2: consume that material the same way today obviously, but like

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Speaker 2: that's what I was doing.

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Speaker 1: Do either of you know why the show ended?

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Speaker 5: I've heard, and I actually really I still don't even

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Speaker 5: know if it's true. I heard it was because I

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Speaker 5: think a guy was caught and then killed himself, like

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Speaker 5: right there, But I don't know if that's.

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Speaker 6: So.

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Speaker 1: I looked into this, and there's some conflicting reporting around it,

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Speaker 1: but it seems like this may have been a contributing

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Speaker 1: factor to why To Catch Your Predator did get canceled.

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Speaker 1: So in two thousand and six, the Assistant District attorney

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Speaker 1: in Texas. Bill Conrad was caught in a sting operation

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Speaker 1: by Chris Hansen and a Dateline NBC crew.

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Speaker 4: The officers line up information and head to the back

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Speaker 4: of the house, and.

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Speaker 1: They actually have footage of this, and in that footage

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Speaker 1: you can hear a gunshot.

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Speaker 4: Then we hear a faint practice. The officers forced their

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Speaker 4: way in. For almost five minutes, we don't see or

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Speaker 4: hear anything. Then Lieutenant Adana Barber of the Murphy Police

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Speaker 4: Department comes out. He tells us what happened.

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Speaker 7: And he told him he was heart them and then

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Speaker 7: shoun step he had a pistol in his hand.

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Speaker 1: Small calum So Built died by suicide. His family ended

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Speaker 1: up suing NBC. They settled outside of court, but it

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Speaker 1: really forced people to have a conversation about is this

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Speaker 1: really the best and most ethical way to be going

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Speaker 1: about this. For the record, Chris Hansen says this is

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Speaker 1: not the reason the show ended. He said it just

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Speaker 1: kind of ran its course. But he's still making a

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Speaker 1: version of the Catcher Predator today.

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Speaker 4: Coming up on Takedown with Chris Hansen.

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Speaker 1: Engaging in our other ad. Wow, So did it run

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Speaker 1: its course? You're still doing it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's contradicting himself by continuing we found some more

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Speaker 2: product exactly.

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Speaker 1: So the reason we're talking about to Catch Predators not

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Speaker 1: just because pedophiles are in the news again with the

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Speaker 1: Epstein stuff, but we've been seeing a lot more videos

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Speaker 1: I would say, primarily on X of these like streamers

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Speaker 1: or you know, I guess we can came the influencers

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Speaker 1: doing something that's being called pedophile hunting, which is similar

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Speaker 1: to the Chris Hansen show to Catch a Predator. He's

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Speaker 1: hitting me, a thirteen year old girl. So the biggest

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Speaker 1: difference with these streamers versus like the Catch a Predator

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Speaker 1: is all these streamers are getting really violent with these

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Speaker 1: alleged pedophiles. I'm a bit, am, I a bit Are

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Speaker 1: you gonna.

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Speaker 8: Hit me or something?

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Speaker 1: And obviously the reason that they are doing this is

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Speaker 1: they feel like they can get away with it because

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Speaker 1: if you're being caught being in an alleged pedophile, you're

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Speaker 1: probably not gonna call the police. So yeah, we've been

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Speaker 1: sharing these videos for a while now. I'll look back

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Speaker 1: at our chats over a year ago, even before the

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Speaker 1: pod launch, we've been talking about it, sharing it in

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Speaker 1: the slacks, mostly about how we feel uncomfortable with what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing, But yeah, what is your experience has been seeing?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean these seem like something that definitely popped

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Speaker 5: up in the X era of Twitter, where it's like

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Speaker 5: once it was kind of like the feed is just

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Speaker 5: gonna be whatever is put out there. Yeah, and like

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Speaker 5: all this stuff kind of rises, so I would just

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Speaker 5: see this way more than ever before. Definitely, like I'm

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Speaker 5: sure these were kind of happening earlier, but they kind

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Speaker 5: of blew up. It felt like at least came into

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Speaker 5: my purview. The whole thing feels a lot more just

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Speaker 5: like bullying. And maybe because like you know, and I'm

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Speaker 5: only seeing clips, so I don't know, maybe there's a

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Speaker 5: lot more backstory given. But like the whole thing is

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Speaker 5: like even more miserable than the edited TV version back

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Speaker 5: in the day. Yeah, It's like again, it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: you're kinda once it is in front of you, are

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Speaker 5: fixated to see it and like hear what's going on,

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Speaker 5: but it's it's just even like ten times sadder than yeah,

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Speaker 5: the old version.

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Speaker 2: And it really it made me think, like when these

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Speaker 2: videos started becoming really popular, it made me think about

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Speaker 2: the the quote unquote like content aspect of this, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: entertainment value of it, you know, makes me think about

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Speaker 2: To Catch a Predator or the TV show where it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is this is kind this is bullying, right, Like

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Speaker 2: this is like a they're parading the person out for

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Speaker 2: our entertainment value. And then yeah, it's like the new

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Speaker 2: version where it's like you don't even have like the

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Speaker 2: small amount of due diligence that might be happening from Okay,

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Speaker 2: we recorded this thing. Now let's see like is this

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Speaker 2: person actually guilty or let the police sort it out

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Speaker 2: or whatever, Like the intentives are even more extreme, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and they I think what propels them to keep doing

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Speaker 2: this is this idea that I had when I was twelve,

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Speaker 2: which was it's okay for me to laugh at this

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Speaker 2: because yeah, it's ultimately they're being a deterrent, but like

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Speaker 2: I wonder how much of it is actually a deterrent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to Manny's point, Like, watching these, the big thing

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Speaker 1: that's on my mind is like, is this actually deterring

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Speaker 1: any of these potential predators from doing this in the future,

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Speaker 1: Like are predators watching this being like, oh I can't

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Speaker 1: talk to kids on grinder because like it may be

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Speaker 1: Dad's against predators or something, you know, coming after me,

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Speaker 1: and then I guess another aspect of it that just

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Speaker 1: you know, I felt it with the Catcher Predator, but

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Speaker 1: feel even more with these streamers. Is like the seriousness

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Speaker 1: of the crimes feels kind of like an afterthought, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the sort of entertainment value is just like, oh,

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Speaker 1: look at this idiot getting beat up, right. I haven't

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Speaker 1: watched a lot of these, Like I see him on

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Speaker 1: Twitter and he had a kind of hard to turn

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Speaker 1: away when you're watching these like thirty second or minute

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Speaker 1: long clips. But I haven't watched the full on you know,

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Speaker 1: predator stream so maybe they're getting deeper, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: they're doing all this stuff I just complained about is

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Speaker 1: maybe happening on the long version.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you're like, you know, someone who just reads the

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Speaker 5: headline and complains exactly the real journalism they're doing exactly.

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Speaker 1: I don't really know this world, so I am going

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Speaker 1: to talk to someone who knows a lot about this world.

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Speaker 1: I am going to chat with a reporter who has

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Speaker 1: watched hundreds of these pedophile hunting videos. That is after

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Speaker 1: the break. Okay, we're back. This is no such thing. So,

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Speaker 1: as I mentioned before the break, this is a topic

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Speaker 1: that we've been talking and thinking about a lot, even

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Speaker 1: before we launched the podcast. Wow and you know that

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Speaker 1: meme that's like, you know, I've been working on this

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Speaker 1: for however long and then like you just tweeted it out.

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Speaker 1: This is what happened with the New York Times. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: as we were talking about this, they published this story

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Speaker 1: which was exactly what we were discussing, which is like

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Speaker 1: doing a deep dive all these online pedophile hunters. So

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Speaker 1: the Times did a visual investigation titled Online Pedophile Hunters

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Speaker 1: are growing more violent and going Viral. So I talked

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Speaker 1: to one of the reporters from that team, Eric Teller,

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Speaker 1: who's been watching hundreds of these videos.

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Speaker 9: I'm very fascinated by this weird internet subgenres and subcultures,

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Speaker 9: and this is one of the weirdest ones out there.

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Speaker 1: Eric, similar to us, grew up watching the Catch a

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Speaker 1: Predator and seeing a lot of these videos on his

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Speaker 1: Twitter feed.

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Speaker 9: Do you see all these you know, photos of these

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Speaker 9: guys getting you know, beat up, being chased and drop

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Speaker 9: kicked and thrown to the trash.

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Speaker 1: But there was one case in particular that really caught

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Speaker 1: his attention.

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Speaker 9: One guy in particular called himself on real Jujika, and

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Speaker 9: Jiujika is the name of some like manga about like

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Speaker 9: this like revenge. It's like revenge killing is the idea

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Speaker 9: of this mang It's like this kid who goes on

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Speaker 9: revenge and killed all these people. It's like this righteous

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Speaker 9: defender or whatever.

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Speaker 1: So the manga is called Jujika No Broken In and

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Speaker 1: so many reviews online on Reddit and YouTube are about

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Speaker 1: just how fucked up this series is.

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Speaker 3: The most dangerous character of them all is our main villain,

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Speaker 3: because this kid is really fucked up. Like he sits

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Speaker 3: there and he's talking about how he's going to be

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Speaker 3: the first killer that is going to kill without no desire,

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Speaker 3: with loving family and friends because he wants to be

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Speaker 3: an ultimate killer.

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Speaker 9: There's this kid, you can tell, he's probably like in

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Speaker 9: his early twenties, maybe eighteen nineteen something something like that.

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Speaker 9: He had a video where he this he tied this

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Speaker 9: old man up, like he tied up his wrist and

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Speaker 9: then beat him with a hammer until he was like bloody, right,

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Speaker 9: and posts this video on Instagram on Telegram.

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Speaker 1: Whatever. All right, let me show you guys this video.

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Speaker 1: But first I want to pull up this tweet, which will,

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Speaker 1: I guess give you some insight into his thinking. So

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Speaker 1: along with this video of him beating up this seventy

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Speaker 1: three year old, this is the caption. It says, petals

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Speaker 1: walk away because they can hide it with money or power.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter to me anymore. When my friend got

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Speaker 1: pedo attacked, no one was there. So don't ever question

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Speaker 1: what I do. My hatred will never be filled unfiltered love.

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Speaker 1: All right, So here's the video of him attacking this

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Speaker 1: seventy three year old man with a hammer in his house.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Wow, it's just a questions WHOA This

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Speaker 1: video is pretty graphic, but you see a masked man

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Speaker 1: holding a hammer, posing around an elderly man whose face

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Speaker 1: is bloodied. His hands are tied. They're seen in a

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Speaker 1: cut of him hitting the man, and you could see

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Speaker 1: him screaming and yelling for help.

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Speaker 9: And about a month or so after I first saw

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Speaker 9: this video, we got word that he was arrested in Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 9: and it turned out was a night at the time,

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Speaker 9: nineteen or twenty year old from kind of a well

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Speaker 9: to do family outside of Philly. He was doing this

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Speaker 9: and it was real, and I think it was real.

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Speaker 9: Like the guy who was beat up, he he was

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Speaker 9: was like an hospice care soon after because he had

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Speaker 9: he had cancer, and there was other people too. He

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Speaker 9: had done this to a few other people as well too,

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Speaker 9: So that's how we got into the first place. This

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Speaker 9: is especially violent kind of crazy example, which you know,

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Speaker 9: even seeing I've seen hundreds and hundreds of these videos,

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Speaker 9: that's still the most insane of all the ones I've

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Speaker 9: seen was that first one I saw.

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Speaker 1: That really is hard to watch.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and even like that's kind of cutting around probably

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Speaker 5: the worst and most violent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's just like I said, they were disturbing

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Speaker 1: to see, Like.

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Speaker 2: It makes me think about how like sometimes when you're

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Speaker 2: watching this, you don't feel like the person would be

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Speaker 2: doing this if it weren't for like views and clicks.

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Speaker 2: They know it's a form of entertainment that they can

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Speaker 2: get people to watch, and it's not like but then

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Speaker 2: you see like a guy like this who's got like

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Speaker 2: a fucking origin story, yeah, doing this, and you do

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Speaker 2: wonder like maybe it's not all just for the interviewing.

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Speaker 5: Not just performative and that, Yeah, if you're just like,

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Speaker 5: I want views, how do I get these? Yeah, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: All right, So this I think he's nineteen year old,

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Speaker 1: has a child date layer. This week he's being charged

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Speaker 1: with everything from kidnapping to burglary to making terroristic threats.

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Speaker 1: And obviously this is a pretty extreme example of what

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Speaker 1: these you know, streamers do. When I was curious talking

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Speaker 1: to Eric, what does a more like typical video tend

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Speaker 1: to look like?

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Speaker 9: It depends on who's doing the catching, right. So I'll

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Speaker 9: give you an example of like Dad's gunst Predators, which

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Speaker 9: is probably the most alific group. They've done probably six five,

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Speaker 9: over five or six hundred to these catches since like

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Speaker 9: twenty nineteen to over about five six years. There's a

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Speaker 9: guy named Jane, a guy named Josh. There're two guys

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Speaker 9: from Ohio bada is like they are, you know, grown

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Speaker 9: men trying to bring justice to the world. By I mean,

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Speaker 9: I think Jay or Josh, one of them is like,

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Speaker 9: you know, we're exposing demons. Is how they do it right,

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Speaker 9: And they talk about how they brag often about how

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Speaker 9: many suicides they've caused people who've been in their videos,

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Speaker 9: who have who have committed suicide, shortly after.

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Speaker 1: The videos, I've almost I don't care.

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Speaker 8: Hey, I don't care.

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Speaker 1: You can't even meet a little boy, a thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old boy. You think I'll give a fuck about you,

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Speaker 1: I don't give.

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Speaker 8: A fuck about you.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 9: I think the exact what is like we kind of

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Speaker 9: bodies not arrest. It's kind of how they brak. They

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Speaker 9: see themselves like on a Holy crusade, right, and it'll

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Speaker 9: be them. Sometimes they have like an entourage people with them.

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Speaker 9: They'll like be sitting in a car and they're about about

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Speaker 9: to meet up with a guy. So they go on

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Speaker 9: to apps like Grinder or Tender or Facebook or a

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Speaker 9: bunch of special liznings and they'll like pose as they'll

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Speaker 9: like put their ages eighteen because that's the lowest you

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Speaker 9: can put your age. And then after they talk to

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Speaker 9: a guy for a while, they say, oh, I'm actually thirteen,

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Speaker 9: I'm actually fourteen. Do you still want to meet up?

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Speaker 9: And then this is how they describe it, And usually

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Speaker 9: they post a chat log so you can actually see this.

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Speaker 9: And then if you know, if a guy says, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 9: let's still meet up, they'll do it in a public place.

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Speaker 9: Sometimes they write like Airbnb, so like a trap house.

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Speaker 9: Usually it's like a like a Dollar General.

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Speaker 1: Or a Walmart or a grocery store or whatever.

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Speaker 9: Right, and then there's some in the car and like, okay,

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Speaker 9: this is him. I see the guy. He's going in.

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Speaker 9: Let's go.

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Speaker 3: You go, okay, just pull it up, he said up

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Speaker 3: here there.

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Speaker 9: Right there access and they're like kind of like spies, right,

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Speaker 9: and they go and they confront the guy like in

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Speaker 9: a like a chip aisle in Walmart, and they say, hey,

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Speaker 9: you expect them to see a fourteen year old it's

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Speaker 9: actually me, right.

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Speaker 5: I need to know why you're here to meet a thirteen.

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Speaker 8: Year old boy? Kay, Okay, I'm not kidding.

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Speaker 6: Okay, Hey, well I might Hey sir, I might have

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Speaker 6: at messed up?

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Speaker 1: Is this you right here?

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Speaker 8: Hey, don't grab my phone?

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Speaker 10: You and get stuck boy?

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Speaker 9: And then the guys will almost always say like, oh,

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Speaker 9: I just wanted to like get them advice and tell

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Speaker 9: them this was a bad idea. Excuses I.

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Speaker 8: Shouldn't be a grinder. You know why, ask him?

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Speaker 11: Because because because when I was fifteen, six yard grinder,

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Speaker 11: I was taking advantage of every.

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Speaker 8: Single fucking day.

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Speaker 6: So you want to do it again?

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Speaker 8: No, I was, I was coming to meet the kid.

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Speaker 1: Why did you was coming to meet the kid?

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Speaker 8: Why did you say, have you ever been fucked before?

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Speaker 1: Because I was fucked when I was fifteen? So why

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Speaker 1: are you asking him that? Because I want to make

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Speaker 1: him fucking understand that he shouldn't fucking do that.

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Speaker 9: They'll do so, then they'll diverge. Sometimes I just try

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Speaker 9: to commulate them publicly, like their catchphrase is they like,

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Speaker 9: excuse me everyone, this guy is a pedophile, blah blah

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Speaker 9: blah blah, and like scream and try to embarrass him

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Speaker 9: as they run away.

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Speaker 1: Tyler is here, what I mean a fourteen year old girl?

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Speaker 1: Excuse me, everyone, Tyler is here? To mean a fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old girl.

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Speaker 9: Sometimes I just like just beat the shit out of them.

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Speaker 9: They'll just attack them and like kick them and slap

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Speaker 9: them and punch them, and or maybe they'll chase them

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Speaker 9: through the parking lot and then like beat him down.

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Speaker 8: I don't even know, oh my god, oh.

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Speaker 9: And then then the video wins, right. So usually the

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Speaker 9: videos are twenty thirty minutes each, sometimes are a lot longer.

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Speaker 9: Sometimes they do like live catches. They're kind of like

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Speaker 9: the lead up to it and then like afterwards and

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Speaker 9: all that stuff. But usually that's what the video looks like.

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Speaker 9: Is sometimes there's violent, sometimes there's not. It depends on

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Speaker 9: the group. Some some groups are violent some market.

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Speaker 1: I've seen situations where they have said like, hey, we

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Speaker 1: know you're a pedophile. You can either let us beat

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Speaker 1: you up or we're gonna call it op.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, they do that sometimes too.

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Speaker 1: And and there's the situations obviously when they do both.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, of course it works. I mean this, this is

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Speaker 9: the thing, Like there's hundreds and hundreds of these. They

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Speaker 9: don't they don't do the exact same playbook every time. Right,

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Speaker 9: So this is something that Josh, one of the two

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Speaker 9: dads ganess redit or God does is he He'll say like, okay,

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Speaker 9: you have an option all other well other slot you

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Speaker 9: get slaps or you get the police, right, And the

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Speaker 9: guy's not every time, but like not evencent the time

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Speaker 9: they asked for the slaps, like don't call the cops

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Speaker 9: or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Oh that boy season up.

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Speaker 6: Hey, now who are you here to meet? Who are

394
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,360
Speaker 6: you here to meet? Or you can call the cops

395
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,119
Speaker 6: and we can we can figure it all out together,

396
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 6: and then I'll go to jail for smacking you, I'll

397
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Speaker 6: bound out. It's only gonna be like one hundred and

398
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Speaker 6: fifty dollars and you'll go to jail mister, for what

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Speaker 6: you've been doing.

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Speaker 9: There are some streamers on Kick and them that we

401
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 9: talk about most in our reporting. In our article a

402
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 9: while ago was Vitali's drug Eski, who was a relatively

403
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Speaker 9: popular Kick streamer. I think he's like top twenty, top ten.

404
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 9: I don't know, he's fat Batali streamer. Read his Wikipedia.

405
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Speaker 9: It's wild. He's like streaked, like on like world cop.

406
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Speaker 6: Just ran on it.

407
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Speaker 9: Has a whole weird history of like attacking on woman

408
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Speaker 9: when he was like a jogger. He's an attacked a woman.

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Speaker 9: He's like on drugs.

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Speaker 8: He just came out for no reason. He just came

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Speaker 8: out and just whacked.

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Speaker 10: Her in the face. Okay, this guy is This guy

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Speaker 10: has got this website battally uncensored.

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Speaker 1: He's had some issues before.

415
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Speaker 8: He's a big muscle bound kid inside.

416
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Speaker 1: I don't know if he's rolled it up.

417
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Speaker 8: I don't know if he's raised better.

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Speaker 1: But he just cool cocked the manage the whole weird life.

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Speaker 9: But his kind of new arc that he had was

420
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Speaker 9: he would do his pedophile catches on kick. What Vitali

421
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 9: does is he does like a game show is what

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Speaker 9: he calls. So like a first few streams he gets

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Speaker 9: like attack people, right, and I'm pretty sure you're gonna

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Speaker 9: start talking to because he dimensions a few times like

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00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,359
Speaker 9: oh yeah, kicked told me I can't you know, it

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00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 9: can't be a violent or whatever. He would have the

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Speaker 9: electric predator and like you know an Airbnb or whatever

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Speaker 9: that he rented up and say, okay, we can either

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Speaker 9: call the cops or you could do our our game show.

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Speaker 9: And it's like five rounds of like humiliating them. So

431
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 9: the first round maybe like here's like a super duper

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Speaker 9: hot chip.

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Speaker 1: There life, you're a choice.

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Speaker 5: I usually get people sixty seconds to decide.

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Speaker 1: It's a fucking chip, but you're not gonna die.

436
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 5: It's spicy. You eat or cops eat, or cops eat

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Speaker 5: I do.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

439
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 9: In the second round might be like, oh, we're gonna

440
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 9: shave your eyebrows. And the third round might be like

441
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 9: you have to call your mom or you call your

442
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 9: wife and tell him what you did.

443
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 8: So and he's here and we caught him, what do

444
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 8: you think I should do to him?

445
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,120
Speaker 5: Or what do you think you have anything to say

446
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,239
Speaker 5: to your son right now that he came here for us.

447
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 8: No, hold on, hold on, hold on, Let you talk

448
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 8: to your ma and my husband.

449
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 1: Hold on.

450
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 9: The fourth mound may be like we have a swimming

451
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 9: pool with like a plank over it, or like a

452
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,160
Speaker 9: board that goes over with a bunch of mouse trafts.

453
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 9: You had to walk across the barefoot, right, So like

454
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 9: they have like a serious like escalating like more painful,

455
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 9: more humiliating things, and then after at the end of it,

456
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 9: they leave and you know, they may or may not

457
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 9: call cops and some people, you know, just like they

458
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 9: were told, well, this is the game show, We're gonna whatever.

459
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 9: They gets kept and leave immediately and then nothing happens.

460
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 9: I think got another person coming in soon, right, so

461
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 9: they don't want the cops show and break up their

462
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 9: next catch. But yeah, I me, it depends.

463
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 3: You know.

464
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 9: He vtality has signed forty fifty to sixty of these,

465
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 9: so they kind of it changes, you know, stream to stream, So.

466
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 1: Believe it or not, we have actually talked about and

467
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 1: seen some of these vitality videos. M there's two that

468
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 1: he has with these, you know, to us famous musicians. Uh,

469
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: The first one I'm going to play features tie dollar

470
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: sign oh yeah, musician No Noah's day one dollar yeah,

471
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 1: trying to meet the fifteen year old you want to

472
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: meet on fiften ye old? Want fifteen year old?

473
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:35,719
Speaker 5: Why?

474
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: Why do you want to meet a fifty year old

475
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 1: fucking boy?

476
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 8: For second?

477
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 6: Are you a pedoph?

478
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,679
Speaker 1: Oh? No, one's gonna hurt you, bro.

479
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 5: Huh good personal, You're a good person.

480
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: Could you imagine?

481
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 5: Uh? You know, you're getting confronted on camera for your

482
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 5: you know, online activities whatever they are, and Ti Dolson

483
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 5: shows up to rub it in.

484
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: That'd be crazy.

485
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 2: I still know what he gets out of it.

486
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 1: And then there's this other video which features everyone knows

487
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 1: who Acon is Akon singing his hit single locked Up

488
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: while an alleged pedophile is being arrested on camera. And

489
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 1: then the weird things Batali's wearing, some like Native American headdress.

490
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: I don't really know how that ties into what's happening.

491
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: And it just goes to show you how so many people,

492
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 2: including celebrities, feel like this is a noble endeavor and

493
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 2: they're just happy to appear in these videos because they

494
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 2: feel like it makes them look good. It's like good

495
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: pr for them.

496
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: In his investigation, Eric found that there have been more

497
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: than one hundred and seventy violent attack by pedophile hunters

498
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,719
Speaker 1: since twenty twenty three. How did you go about like

499
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 1: tracking down all these videos?

500
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 10: Right?

501
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 1: Because it is you know, you guys break down just

502
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 1: like how many violent attacks that you've seen across all

503
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: these platforms? Like how did you go about that? Like

504
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: quantifying it?

505
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 9: I mean it was it was just just endless data

506
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 9: collection a right. I just had to spreadsheet. I still

507
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 9: have it. It just with hundreds of rows on Google

508
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 9: sheets of just listening every single group I could find.

509
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: Right.

510
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 9: This is the thing that's kind of frustrating about this

511
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 9: is these groups kind of come and go, so they

512
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 9: aren't I mean, there will be a group that does

513
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 9: two or three catches and they kind of go away.

514
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 9: Some that were around forever but that we're there on

515
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 9: Facebook and Facebook deleted them because a lot of these

516
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 9: social platforms have like crackdown and you can't find traces

517
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 9: of it. And so I just went through and I

518
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 9: literally just went through Facebook and through Twitter and through

519
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 9: Rumble and kick and all these places. I just just

520
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 9: gathered as many as I could. The way these go

521
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 9: is a lot of times they are very locally driven,

522
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 9: so it's like there'll be a lot of especially on Facebook,

523
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 9: it'll be like the area code. So if it's like

524
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 9: New York, you know, like the two, you know the

525
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 9: two and two. You know predator catchers, right, those are

526
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 9: the ones that are kind of hard to find because

527
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 9: they're like very hyper local. But then you have the

528
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 9: big groups you know, like Dads Against Predators and Predator

529
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 9: a poachers that are national, They travel and make thousands

530
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 9: of dollars and all that.

531
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 5: Wow.

532
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,719
Speaker 1: So you mentioned some of the platforms, but can you

533
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: talk me through like where you're seeing most of this

534
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: stuff live.

535
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 9: When it used to be back five plus years ago,

536
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 9: everything was on Facebook. All these plate people were on Facebook,

537
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 9: Slash YouTube. It's kind of like the dual places because

538
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 9: those are the biggest platforms the people were and YouTube

539
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 9: for a long time. YouTube and Facebook is to let

540
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 9: these people live and there's like some light moderation, but

541
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 9: there wasn't that much, right, So you see groups with

542
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 9: tens of thousands of members, local, national, whatever, who post

543
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 9: full videos. They would do Facebook live streams, doing their

544
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 9: live catches. This still happens, though not as much as

545
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 9: you used to, and they would go on YouTube and

546
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 9: they would they would be able to monetize and make some

547
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 9: pretty decent money monetizing their videos on YouTube, which is

548
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 9: why many of them are there. Around twenty twenty two,

549
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 9: YouTube had a pretty big suite and they like had

550
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 9: a kind of crack down on this.

551
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 11: Our next witness is Neil Mohan, chief product officer at YouTube.

552
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: I want to make clear that there's no place on

553
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: YouTube for violent extremist content.

554
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 9: And many of the people that were around in twenty

555
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 9: twenty two, they were either demonetized or banned off the

556
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 9: platform entirely. Some people came back right, you know, you

557
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 9: find ways to dodge the band and kind of slip

558
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 9: under the radar. Other people just stop doing it all

559
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 9: together because once the money's gone, it's not worth doing.

560
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 9: Or they moved to other platforms, and many of them

561
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 9: moved to Twitter. Now, especially after Elon Too go over,

562
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 9: they can do whatever they want. There are some exceptions,

563
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 9: but there's much less moderation than when tracked to our

564
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 9: series in Charge. And the other place that's absorbed in

565
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 9: many of them is locals, which is a kind of

566
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 9: a right wing Patreon like free Speech no censorship whatever. Right,

567
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 9: So you can subscribe to somebody for ten dollars a

568
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 9: month or whatever on locals. And we know from talking

569
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 9: to a lot of these people that Locals that they

570
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 9: see this pedophile hunting thing as like a growth strategy.

571
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 9: Is how we came with from a reporting it's they

572
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 9: help them grow their brand, grow their videos or their audience,

573
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 9: because of course, the more subscribers will get, the more

574
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 9: fees Locals collects, and the bigger the platform gets.

575
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Locals sounds like like an obscure dating app.

576
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: That's like that. It's like kink forward.

577
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you know when you get those pop ups,

578
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: is like the in your area?

579
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 2: Ye?

580
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: Who's the audience for this?

581
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 9: Yeah? Uh, it's it depends. So for Vitally, he is

582
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 9: streaming on kick, so his audience is a bunch of

583
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 9: young men. Just imagine that an average person watching a

584
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 9: video game stream or like an Aiden Ross or whatever. Right,

585
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 9: So it's usually again I don't have like the demo information,

586
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 9: but if in my head, I imagine like a teenage

587
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 9: boy or like a guy in his young twenties, to me,

588
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 9: that's like his audience dad's and its predators is a

589
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 9: little different they have. Their audience is a bit more

590
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 9: diverse and that like I see like who's commenting on

591
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 9: this stuff, but it is definitely majority male. But like

592
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 9: they get more, get more girls in there, They get

593
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 9: older guys, you know, guys in their thirties and forties

594
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 9: of you know, carrying them on all that stuff. You

595
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 9: get some younger guys too, but their audience seem to

596
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 9: be a little bit older. A lot of the people

597
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 9: who do this stuff are explicitly right wing, you know,

598
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 9: hashtags of the children.

599
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: Q Andon, you know, that sort of stuff.

600
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, but not everyone. Like I've talked a few

601
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 9: kind of left left wing democrat, you know, neutral slash

602
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 9: a political or even like you know, I got a

603
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 9: guy like in like the New York area who's like

604
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 9: pretty seems like he's pretty left wing and does this stuff.

605
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 9: He does he sees this as like an a political

606
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 9: like I'm stopping you know, child predators and.

607
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: That sort of stuff.

608
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 9: Right, So it's not Yeah, you definitely get more right

609
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 9: wing sentiment out of this stuff than you do left wing.

610
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 9: But I don't think it's exclusively of right wing conspiracy

611
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 9: and that thing, because often I talk to these people

612
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 9: and they're like they're a political.

613
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: Well, I'm always interested in like the political breakdown of

614
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 2: a given group. But it kind of tracks that this

615
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: would be, you know, kind of all over the place politically.

616
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: And it's it's using now that this is coming up,

617
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: because we are seeing the left kind of hijacked the

618
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein stuff. Right. The Democrats tweeted from their official

619
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: count it's the Republican you know, elephant and it says

620
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: pedophile protectors on it, right, So it's like they're really

621
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: trying to take the Epstein list stuff and like trying

622
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: to mobilize that base to come vote for them. And

623
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: now we have these two parties being like, you like pedophiles, No,

624
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: you like pedophiles?

625
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, it kind of speaks to the

626
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: same level of cynicism that we've been seeing from the

627
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: pedophile hunters themselves, Like obviously, I'm a liberal and I

628
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: would like to see more about these files or whatever

629
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: the hell. Yeah, but it's obviously that they're just doing

630
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: this now because it's gonna make Trump look bad and

631
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: it's like a strategic thing to capture some of his voters. Yeah,

632
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: they've I don't think I ever cared about this until

633
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: they realized it was like it.

634
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 9: Could be used a new issue.

635
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 5: Yes appeared given you know this guy died her ago.

636
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: So you know, these people are getting policed online, right,

637
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: Like we see that YouTube and Facebook are saying, all right,

638
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: maybe we're not going to allow you to host videos,

639
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: or you're punching someone in a face. But spoilerler is

640
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: also illegal to just punch someone in a face in

641
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: real life too, even if they're an alleged pedophile. So

642
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: it's curious, like what are prosecutors and police doing about

643
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: the fact that these a lot of these guys are

644
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: hitting people.

645
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 9: So like, imagine you're a sheriff in a small town

646
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 9: in Ohio, right or Indiana if you have to get reelected,

647
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 9: or if you're a juge or whatever, and do you

648
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 9: want to be the guy who was soft on pedophiles? Right?

649
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 9: Are you going to go and prosecute a violent pedophile catcher?

650
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 9: The violent catturers can sometimes get in trouble, but it's

651
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 9: not nearly two degree if it was again, they're assaulting

652
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 9: electric pedophiles right there, if there's like a racist thing

653
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 9: or like they're attacking someone because they're like or lesbian,

654
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 9: it would be a completely different situation because again they're pedophiles, right,

655
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 9: I mean you can it's kind of obvious, right, So

656
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 9: dazingest writers they have two guys, right, Jay and Josh.

657
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 9: They both of them have outstanding warrants in multiple states, right,

658
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 9: And they've they've said this on stream. They say, like

659
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 9: there a certain states we can't go to anymore because

660
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 9: of this. So often people do get charged and they

661
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 9: do have warrs put out them, but they're like, you're

662
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 9: not sending you know, bounty hunters to go grab them,

663
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 9: you know, the justice, right, And there are sometimes that

664
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 9: people have been prosecuted, but like it's usually the most

665
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 9: violent that the violent catches, like literal murder, Like this

666
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 9: guy in Texas who like shot and killed the guy

667
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 9: during one of this He's been tried for murder.

668
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: Tonight, a twenty four year old man is charged in

669
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: the murder of a thirty seven year old convicted sex offender.

670
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 11: Some wonder if he was acting as a vigilante now.

671
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 10: According to court documents, James Lewis Spencer the Third made

672
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 10: statements such as if the cops were not going to

673
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 10: do anything about pedophiles, maybe he should kill them. Himself.

674
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like, no politician or sheriff or whoever wants to

675
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 5: be the one who's like, well, I'm going to stop

676
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 5: these illegal vigilantes and then be branded as like the

677
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 5: pro pedophile guy.

678
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 8: You know.

679
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 5: It's it's just like the TSA stuff from a few

680
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 5: weeks ago we were talking about where it's like, yeah,

681
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 5: no politician wants to be like we're going to end

682
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 5: TSA and then nine to eleven happens again or whatever.

683
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 5: Even though the TSA is not actually helping.

684
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: It's very similar connected as they look. Yeah, on the surface.

685
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: And the last question I had for Eric was the

686
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: thing we've kind of been talking around this entire episode,

687
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: which is is any of this actually.

688
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 9: Helping criminologist people look at this academically. They kind of

689
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 9: told me across the board, this is not helpful, this

690
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 9: is harmful. It actually like it these kind of videos

691
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 9: can do a net negative for the world, and that's it.

692
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 9: Like teaches predators slash want to be predators, like how

693
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 9: to avoid this stuff, like because a lot of times

694
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 9: police use very very similar techniques as the predator catchers, right,

695
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 9: and so like if they.

696
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: Are showing you on camera how to do.

697
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 9: Exactly they show you the tools of the trade basically, right,

698
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 9: And so if people learn how to avoid this and

699
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 9: like go underground or hone their craft or you know

700
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 9: whatever disgusting thing you want to say, right, like that

701
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 9: could like help or theoretically increase the amount a harm

702
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 9: in the world right by this. But I talk to

703
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 9: other police and they would tell me, like, yeah, we

704
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 9: love what these guys are doing. Like what they're doing

705
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 9: is good. It reduces the number of creeps in the world.

706
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 9: But they can't go about the way they're doing it, right,

707
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 9: They can't be people up. They have to let us

708
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 9: know ahead of time, Like they have to know that

709
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 9: the evidence that they're collecting usually probably can't be used

710
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 9: in court. This may not be the thing that puts

711
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 9: these people behind bars.

712
00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: Right.

713
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: What's mind blowing about this is that I've seen some

714
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 2: of those game show formatted like to catch Preditor things,

715
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: and I always assumed that they were paying someone to

716
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 2: play the pedophile in some of those videos because of

717
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 2: how outlandish they are. But to learn that, like it's real,

718
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: so to speak, is it's just insane to me?

719
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, So Eric looked as often as I can, I

720
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 9: try to figure out who the people are like the

721
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 9: electric predators are, because we want to reach out to

722
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 9: as many people as we can and talk to these people, right,

723
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 9: and as you can imagine, we like no one responded,

724
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 9: so of all the dozens of people, I had to

725
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 9: reach out back out to me because sometimes they like

726
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 9: when they do the catchual, they like show like the

727
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 9: text messages of the incriminating messages and sunding like nasty stuff,

728
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 9: and they'll show the phone number on there so I

729
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 9: could figure who they are from that. Yeah, And usually yeah,

730
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 9: usually I search them and they have outstanding court cases

731
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 9: against them, or I search them when they're on their

732
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 9: registry right, or I see their face and like, oh,

733
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 9: they arrested five years ago for this or that charge, right,

734
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 9: I mean not always, but it does happen. So these

735
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 9: are not like they don't like hire a guy for

736
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 9: fifty dollars on Craigslist to pretend to be a pedophile.

737
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 9: I mean, maybe that happens once in a while, Like

738
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 9: I don't want saying one hundred.

739
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 1: Percents not skits.

740
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 9: Yeah, maybe a few of them are fake. I mean

741
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 9: I don't know, because Vitality and his streaming stuff, I

742
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 9: don't it's a whole other world. But the vast majority

743
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 9: of the ones I have looked up are like these

744
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 9: are not like Craigslist actors, like they're legit people.

745
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: So after talking to Eric, it felt like we had

746
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: a pretty good understanding of the pedophile hunting landscape, but

747
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: a lot of these conversations still felt like they were

748
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: not centering survivors. So after their break, I will be

749
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: talking to someone who has quite a different approach to

750
00:35:48,719 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: protecting children from predators online. Okay, we're back.

751
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and.

752
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: This is Devin. So I want to talk with someone

753
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 1: who has actually really been doing work in this field.

754
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 11: I'm Stefan Turkhimer. I'm the vice president of Public Policy

755
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 11: for RAIN. You may know RAIN, but RAIN is the

756
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 11: largest anti sexual violence organization in the United States. We

757
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 11: run the National Sexual Salt Hotline. We provide feedback and

758
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 11: consulting to various media projects, movies, television shows.

759
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: That sort of thing.

760
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 11: And I lead the public policy department, which tries to

761
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 11: change laws to make them more survivor centered and to

762
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 11: help find a fender accountability but basically opening up more

763
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 11: pathways to justice for survivors.

764
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, like, what have the conversations been

765
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: at RAIN and survivors around pedophile hunting and is there

766
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: just like a general sentiment about this, sort of like

767
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: vigilante justice.

768
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 9: That's a great question.

769
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 11: I mean, the reality is, at Rain, I don't think

770
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 11: we've ever discussed the concept of pedalphile hunting. And I

771
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 11: think the reason why is because survivors are nowhere in

772
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 11: the conversation. Yeah, as in, they're not really a part

773
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 11: of this at all. It's to degree they're part of it,

774
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 11: it's just as an excuse for making the violence into

775
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 11: a righteous endeavor as opposed to violence in and of itself.

776
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 11: But I think that you know, sexual assault, sexual abuse

777
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 11: are violent acts and of themselves. In just deepening repeating

778
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 11: the violence or repeating more violence as an answer to

779
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 11: it doesn't really get to the underlying issue and doesn't

780
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 11: really act as a deterrent in my mind. But yeah,

781
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 11: but we don't discuss it because it's not really a

782
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 11: survivor related it's not survivor center. It's not survivor center.

783
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so what would you say? Right, So, one

784
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: of the big groups that does this is Dad's Against Predators,

785
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: and one of the main members of the group says

786
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: he was a survivor himself. Yeah, so for him, this

787
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: is like really personal, and this is a way for

788
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: him to take potential predators off of the street because

789
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: they're doing the work that the police are not doing.

790
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: And some would argued at the police don't have resources

791
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: to do it, and someone argue, that's just not higher

792
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: priority for police. So what would range response be to that,

793
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: as you know, someone who is a survivor doing.

794
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 11: This, Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, I mean everybody, every

795
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 11: survivor's journey is different, right, And I've talked to a

796
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 11: lot of survivors who do wish ill upon those that

797
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 11: hurt them, and so it's not entirely foreign concept to

798
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 11: think about that that way. And I do recognize there's

799
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 11: a lot of survivors also who feel that the criminal

800
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 11: justice system or the police let them down in the

801
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 11: moment and they no longer trust them to protect them

802
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 11: and to protect others, and so they end up in

803
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 11: this particular place. I would argue that that's actually not

804
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 11: helping the system at all, that's not actually helping other survivors.

805
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 11: I understand how that person can end up in this

806
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 11: position where he wants to exact justice in his name,

807
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 11: But I don't think it's actually practical for fixing a problem.

808
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 11: I don't think it's If the criminal justice system, which

809
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 11: is the primary means of trying to deal with the situation,

810
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 11: is not working, then our goal should be to fix

811
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 11: the criminal justice system so that it does work, so

812
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 11: that survivors are respected in the system, so that justice

813
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 11: can occur, and that this type of predation can stop.

814
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 9: I mean, that's the end goal, right.

815
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 11: A lot of survivors don't feel that they've been protected

816
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 11: by the criminal justice system, right, And I would argue

817
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 11: that the job here is to improve the criminal justice

818
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 11: system so the survivors can't find justice in it. But

819
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 11: there's really two parts of it, right, because one of

820
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 11: it is the criminal justice system isn't delivering on its

821
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 11: promises to some degree, right, whether that's because police aren't

822
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 11: trum informed or because juries aren't willing to listen to kids, whatever,

823
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 11: the situation is, right, And I think they're getting better

824
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 11: about that, and I think we have to have faith

825
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 11: in the system to improve it. But the other part

826
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 11: of that, of course, is like what are the platforms doing?

827
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 11: And the answer in most cases is not a lot, right,

828
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 11: So it's like, I mean, I can't think of how

829
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 11: many times we asked Meta to stop allowing adults to

830
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 11: message kids they didn't have any connections with on Instagram.

831
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 11: I mean, that seems common sense, right, that you shouldn't

832
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 11: allow that, And it took them I think eight years,

833
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 11: ten years to do it. And it's because they have

834
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 11: this real theory that they want to be sort of

835
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 11: agnostic about how people are using it and that any communication,

836
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 11: any connection that they can create is actually good.

837
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 4: Right.

838
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 11: There are certainly guidelines and guardrails that need to be

839
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 11: present to protect people from this intrusion into their lives.

840
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 11: And kids aren't good at protecting themselves, you know, they

841
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,439
Speaker 11: don't have good impulse control, they don't have a good

842
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 11: sense of what boundaries are. So it's like you've got

843
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 11: platforms and criminal justice system who are not doing an

844
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 11: amazing job here, so cases and so you can see

845
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 11: how someone can end up in this place. Again, I

846
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 11: don't think that this is what anyone should be doing,

847
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 11: but I do understand how a survivor can feel let

848
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 11: down by the systems that we're supposed to protect them.

849
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: I can't get past the fact that like these pedophile

850
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 2: hunter streamers are not really addressing kind of the larger

851
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 2: problem here. It feels like, you know, this like misguided

852
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: vigilante layer to this has been addressed before. Like this

853
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: sounds random, but like in like comic books, like you know,

854
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 2: how useful is Batman?

855
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 5: Actually he's just he's just going.

856
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: On beating up Jaywalker's And it's like, you know, this

857
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: is clear to me. It speaks to them clearly being

858
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: in this for the entertainment value, for potential to make

859
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: money off of it. Otherwise they would actually be kind

860
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: of I don't know, trying to get something on more

861
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, are at precincts or trying to figure out,

862
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: you know, what are the flaws of the justice system

863
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 2: in their areas, because I'm sure it depends on where

864
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: you are in the country.

865
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

866
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: So yeah, you feel like, you know, this is all

867
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: very cynical, even on the part of the people who

868
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 2: think they're doing something good.

869
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll give you know, like he says, I'll give

870
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 1: some grease to people who happen a victim of this stuff,

871
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 1: and this is their way of like feeling like they're

872
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: exacting some revenge. But like he said, it's like it's

873
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: still not productive, right, Right, We've all been in situations

874
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 1: where our anger is justified, but like how we channel

875
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: that anger really is where the focus should be. And

876
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: I feel like with so much of this stuff, to

877
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: your point, it doesn't feel solution oriented. It feels like

878
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: pure animalistic. This thing is happening, Let's go beat these

879
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: peopleeople up and we can make money doing it even better, right, Like,

880
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: it's not trying to solve the issue of why are

881
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: people who are posing as fourteen year olds allowed to

882
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: talk to adults online? Like how is this happening with

883
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: such ease? You know, It's like, if they're able to

884
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: catch all these people by doing it, imagine the amount

885
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: of real fourteen year olds who are actually talking to

886
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: adults online. Yeah.

887
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 5: I also think it probably all feeds into this idea

888
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 5: that you see online. More and more, I feel like of,

889
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 5: you know, these kind of rings of pedophiles and they're

890
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 5: kind of these random predators out there versus like, I

891
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 5: think the reality is this stuff is more happening within

892
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 5: like networks of people who actually know each other. Yes,

893
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 5: you know, it's kind of the scarier thing and this

894
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 5: obviously kind of has nothing to do with that.

895
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: And to Noah's point, right, this is a rain stat.

896
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: The majority of children and teen victims know their perpetrator, right,

897
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: so they say ninety three percent of juvenile victims new

898
00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: to perpetrator either an acquaintance or a family member. So

899
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: that you know, the majority of people who are victims

900
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: of sexual violence are not, you know, talking to strangers online,

901
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: even if that's a lot of what we're seeing in

902
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: a streaming world. So what does justice look like in

903
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 1: a perfect world?

904
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 11: I think that's a great question, and I think it's

905
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 11: it's not really entirely for me to decide.

906
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: I think a survivor.

907
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 11: Should decide on some level what justice looks like within

908
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 11: the bounds of what's good for them and good for society,

909
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 11: like actually good, And so for a lot of people

910
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 11: that's wanting to see that person punished through the criminal

911
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 11: justice system, a lot of times when we talked to survivors,

912
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 11: it actually isn't about punishment for the thing that they experienced.

913
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 11: They really want the opportunity to be heard in a

914
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 11: court and ideally for others not to be affected by

915
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 11: the same person.

916
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 9: So that kind of redress.

917
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 11: Isn't as important as protecting others, and for a lot

918
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 11: of survivors and for other survivors, it's like this damage

919
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 11: has been done to me, and I want to get

920
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:24,959
Speaker 11: back to where I was. I want to be made

921
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 11: whole in some ways. And sometimes that's like a civil

922
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 11: suit against like a school or against an employing entity.

923
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 11: So I think it really depends on what the survivor

924
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 11: wants in that moment and how they can feel that

925
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 11: justice best affects their recovery, and so their sort of

926
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 11: journey is kind of what's most important in that place

927
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 11: and how that will be affected. But I do think

928
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 11: like for that to be effectuated, those systems have to

929
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 11: actually work. So it's like, can you achieve justice within

930
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 11: the systems that you already have? And the answer to that,

931
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 11: I think is you got to try.

932
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: If you or someone you know has experienced sexual assault,

933
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: you are not alone. RAIN offers a national sexual assault

934
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: hotline with free confidential twenty four to seven support. That

935
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: number is eight hundred six five six hope. We're also

936
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: going to put some links for additional RAIN resources in

937
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: our show notes.

938
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 4: Those those those those a sexual.

939
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: Please please please, I'm sorry if this rate us five stars,

940
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 1: especially if you are on Apple or Spotify. It really

941
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: makes the difference and write a nice little review. No

942
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: such thing as a production of kaleidoscope content. Our executive

943
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: producers were Kate Osbourne and Mangest How to Cutter. The

944
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: show was created by Many, Fidel mill Freeman and me

945
00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: Devin Joseph. The theme in credit song is by Manny

946
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: for this episode by Steve Bone. Additional music for this

947
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 1: episode by Zeno Hiarelli, who just put out an incredible

948
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: project under his Moniker certain self. I'm going to link

949
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: to that in our show notes. Our guest this week

950
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,479
Speaker 1: was Eric Tohler from The New York Times please please

951
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: check out their visual investigations and Stefan Turkheimer from Rain.

952
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: They were really really helpful and making sure that we

953
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: were recording on this in the right way. Visit No

954
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: Such Thing Not Show to subscribe to our newsletter where

955
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: we put some bonus content. Also follow us on Instagram.

956
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: No Such Thing that show as well. If you had

957
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: feedback or questions, email us at main Email Ademit at

958
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. We also have a number that you

959
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: can call and leave us a voicemail that's in our

960
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: show notes. If you've made it this far, thank you

961
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 1: for listening. We will see you all Thanks Days.

962
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,959
Speaker 4: He's no such thing.