1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Today On the bright Side, oncologist and author doctor Elizabeth 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: Coleman reveals the not so secret history of sexism and 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: medicine and what we can do to fight it. 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: It's Wednesday, May eighth. Danielle Robe. 5 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: I'm Simone Boyce and this is The bright Side from 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine. 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 3: Bu bu banana, bum bum banana. What I'm spreading the news. 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 3: I'm leaving today. I want to be a part of 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 3: it New York. 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, yeah, we're going. 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 3: We're going. 12 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: We're taking the show on the road. We are doing 13 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: The bright Side from New York for the first time. 14 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: This is so exciting. 15 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 2: I know. I wonder if it's going to sound different 16 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,919 Speaker 2: in New York. Maybe we should have accents. Hmmm, we 17 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: can have like East Coast bright Side moments. Okay, welcome 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: to the bright Side. 19 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 3: We're here ready on the bright Side, you guys, it's 20 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 3: what we need. 21 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 2: Something like that. So well here in New York and 22 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: we have lots to talk about today. We just had 23 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 2: our coffee and bagel and now we're ready for the show. 24 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 3: I think that's perfect. 25 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. Okay, Well, I know that you are 26 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 2: prepping to go out of town because you are a prepper. 27 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: What are you doing? 28 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: Let's see, there's so many things. I gotta go pick 29 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: up something from the dry cleaner. I want to wear 30 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: a bow in my hair this weekend, so I have 31 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: to go to the craft store. 32 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 3: Okay, it's just like one more thing on my list. 33 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 3: Tashi made me do it. 34 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: You know that that hashtag Zendaiya was wearing a bow 35 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: on her press store and I felt so inspired by it. 36 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: I was like, I'm going to try this. 37 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: Does it go with your fit or is it just 38 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: for like a Friday night look elie wk. 39 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: It goes with the fit, it goes with fit. You'll 40 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: probably see it, so you can be a judge. You 41 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: can tell me whether it's a yeah or nay. 42 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: Okay, Tashi made you do it. 43 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 3: I love it. 44 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: I also have to pack. That's the other thing I'll 45 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: probably end up packing, like way last minute. Are you 46 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: a last minute packer or are you do you it early? 47 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: I am usually early, but you know, so we're going 48 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: for an iHeart event and then we're going to do 49 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: the show, and so we have all these fits. So 50 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: now I'm last minute because I didn't get my stuff together. 51 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: I'm literally gonna leave from here go pack and go 52 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 2: run to the airport. 53 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 3: Red eye tonight. 54 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm taking a reddite tonight and I'm trying to 55 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: pack food because the last time I was at last 56 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: time I was on a plane, I sat next to 57 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: this wonderful couple in their eighties actually from New York, 58 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: and she had cooked her husband homemade chicken and she 59 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 2: offered me some. And because they were a little bit older, 60 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 2: I felt uncomfortable saying no, so I had to eat 61 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: her chicken. 62 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: You ate a stranger's chicken on the plane I did? 63 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: This is really unhinged. 64 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: She was so sweet though. 65 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: Wow, Danielle, Yeah, I'm speechless. I mean, on the one hand, 66 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: that's very courteous of you not to decline. But on 67 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: the other hand, who knows could have been in that chicken? 68 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 3: Girl? 69 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: I know it's the Midwest and me, but last time 70 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: we traveled together, you made me try chicken chips or something. 71 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: I have a bag of chicken chips I'm bringing on 72 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: the plane. Talk about unhinged. So, for those who don't know, 73 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: chicken chips are chips that are made of really flat chicken. 74 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: They've like flattened them out on some sort of machine 75 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: press and they've turned them into potato chips without the potato. 76 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: What I'm learning is that you want to make pizza 77 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: from chicken, chips from chicken, You'll eat anything made from chicken. 78 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 3: I'm one big chicken. That's just that's who I am. 79 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 3: I'm just a chicken. 80 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: I didn't say you were a chicken, but I am. I. 81 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm leaning. I'm in my chicken era. 82 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, sure, whatever that means. Okay, speaking of eras, 83 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: Kendall Jenner is in her ex era. 84 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 3: Oh. 85 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:58,119 Speaker 2: The Magala was this week and she was spotted cozying 86 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: up at the after party with Bad Bunny, who's her ex. 87 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: Okay, so I don't follow her dating life all that much, 88 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: but I remember seeing them dating and then they broke up. 89 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: Kendall and Benito broke up, uh, but they were seen canoodling, 90 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: and I was just kind of thinking about I don't 91 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: know if that's a good idea, Kendall. 92 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 4: I don't know how I. 93 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: Feel about exes getting back together, so rarely does it 94 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 2: work out. 95 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 3: I don't know. 96 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: At the same I hear you, but like, on the 97 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: same token, don't you go out and you'll meet couples 98 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: who are like Yeah, we like broke up for a 99 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: little while and then we got back together. 100 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 3: I feel like that's pretty common. 101 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 2: Do you have any friends who that's happened to. 102 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: I have had friends tell me that they got back 103 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: together with an X. I'm thinking of one friend right 104 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: now who got back together with this really toxic person 105 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: and I like begged her not to go back with 106 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: him because he's just so problematic. But that's a tricky 107 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: situation to be in as a friend too, if you're like, 108 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: don't get back with this person, and then what if 109 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: they get back with them and then they get married, 110 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: and then you always the friend who doubted them and 111 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: their decisions. 112 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: And they know how you felt about it deep down. 113 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 3: Yes, there's no going back, there's no taking it back. Yeah. 114 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: So are you the friend who says something? 115 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: Probably if I believe that it's a relationship that's like 116 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: truly harmful detrimental for this person, I will I'll say something. 117 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: I'd rather I'd rather stand in my truth, you know 118 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like only God can judge me. I'd 119 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: rather stand in my truth and tell you what I 120 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: really think, rather than holding it all in and then 121 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: like feeling that remorse or regret over not saying anything. 122 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: What's your stance on that. Do you ever confront your 123 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: friends if you think they're making a bad move romantically. 124 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: I always do, and it's because of this one friend 125 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: who did it for me. You know. I talk about 126 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: this one x on the show sometimes. He was not 127 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: a great guy, but I didn't know it at the time, 128 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: and all my friends kind of I think felt away, 129 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: didn't say anything. And my one friend, Julia, we went 130 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: to a farmer's market one day. I'll never forget. She 131 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: turned to me and she said, do you you can't 132 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: marry him? And I said why. She gave me the 133 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: reasons and I looked at her and I said, thank you. 134 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: That is a real friend, and it didn't change my opinion. 135 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: We dated for I don't know six more months after that. 136 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 3: So you didn't actually take her advice in the end. 137 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 2: No, But in the breakup, like in the aftermath, I 138 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: kept thinking about her words and her honesty. I think 139 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: a real friend is honest with you. 140 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I also think a friendship that's meant to 141 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: last can recover from something like that. 142 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Sometimes the repair is even better, like we have 143 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: Danielle Bayer Jackson on and she's talking about healthy conflict. Yeah, 144 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: sometimes relationships are stronger after that. And Julia gets to 145 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: go on her and I Told you. 146 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 3: So tour and doesn't that feel good? 147 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: Folks? 148 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: After the break, we're uping our clitteracy, y'all with Elizabeth Comyn. 149 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 3: That's right, I just said, clitterasy. 150 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 4: Stay with us, Welcome back, Let's get into it. 151 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: Danielle. 152 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: You know we've talked a lot about how little we 153 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: actually know about women's health and our society and just 154 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: how our bodies are frankly misunderstood by the medical community. Well, 155 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: today we are going beyond the stats to trace the 156 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: historical roots of sexism in medicine. 157 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 3: This is a big one, that's right. 158 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: And today we're joined by doctor Elizabeth Coleman, an oncologist 159 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: and medical historian who makes us hopeful about the future 160 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: of women's health and medicine. She's the author of the 161 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 2: book All in her Head, The Truth and Lies Early 162 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 2: medicine taught us about women's bodies and why it matters today. 163 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: Doctor colemyan Welcome to the bright side. 164 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: Welcome doctor Coleman. 165 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 5: Thank you who doesn't always want to be on the 166 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 5: bright side. 167 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by your career not only because you're a 168 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: noncologist who specializes in treating breast cancer patients, but you've 169 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: spent years studying the underlying sexism in the medical community. 170 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: I've never heard of a medical historian. What made you 171 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: want to get into this type of work. 172 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 5: So when I was at Harvard, I majored in the 173 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 5: history of science, and it was really because I just 174 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 5: couldn't leave behind my love of the humanities and also 175 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 5: my interest in science and biology and chemistry. And what 176 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 5: I really found in that incredible time of my education 177 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 5: was my real passion for understanding the experience of illness, 178 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 5: and particularly for women, and especially in the context of 179 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 5: women's healthcare. It is inextricably linked to history, culture, religion, literature, 180 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 5: the stories we've been told ourselves about our bodies. So 181 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 5: throughout my really professional career, I've always held onto this 182 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 5: tremendous interest in under standing where we come from and 183 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 5: the legacy that we inherit when we show up as 184 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 5: patient or doctor in the exam room and in our 185 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 5: broader healthcare system. 186 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: I think understanding where we come from is the only 187 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 2: way to figure out where we're going. And for years 188 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 2: we've been talking about how medicine has been tailored to 189 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 2: men and the male body. What are some early examples 190 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: that you found in your research of that. 191 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 5: Oh, my goodness, everything. So Hippocrates and his disciples felt 192 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 5: that one of the reasons why women were just so 193 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 5: crazy was because we had this wandering womb, and that 194 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 5: was the source of all women's ills. And over the 195 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 5: course of history, when we learned through anatomy that the 196 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 5: uterus was actually tethered and it wasn't like wandering into 197 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 5: our brains, it then became other parts of our body, 198 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 5: our ovaries or estrogen that was bathing our entire body, 199 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 5: and that's just what made us these unique crazy creatures. 200 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: Well, women then were viewed not as patients but experiments. Experiments, 201 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: but also, depending on the time and history, inverted imperfect, 202 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: more primal versions of the idealized man, and we see 203 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: that today. It wasn't until nineteen ninety three that women 204 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: were even required to be included in NIH funded studies 205 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: women and minorities, And for so much of medical history 206 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: the idea was, well, whatever was happening to men would 207 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: just be similar in women, and we obviously know that's 208 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: not true and so much has been missed along the way. 209 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 1: When you look, for example, at autoimmune diseases, eighty percent 210 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: of autoimmune diseases are in women. 211 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 5: Some of these diseases we don't even have names for. 212 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 5: They're just almost syndromes that we're still trying to figure out. 213 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 5: And in large part that's because we're having a system. 214 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:41,719 Speaker 5: And it's not to say that all men were bad 215 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 5: intentioned at all, but you had a system of men 216 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 5: largely taking care of women, and in turn, there were 217 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 5: biases along the way about what was seen as of 218 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 5: value to be studied. 219 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: Hysteria is a term that really illustrates the sexism that's 220 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: embedded in medicine. But it's also a term that has 221 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: become this loaded insult. It's made its way all the 222 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: way into politics as well. Yeah, I want to talk 223 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: specifically about what you call the long shadow of the 224 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: hysteria diagnosis. What's the history of that diagnosis and how 225 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: does its legacy still rear its ugly head today? 226 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 5: Well, have you ever been called hysterical before? I? 227 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: Have? You have? 228 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 5: Of course, I'm a hysterical crazy woman. 229 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: Of course, what do you mean? Who called you hysterical? 230 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: Professionally or personally. 231 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 5: In every context, I've been told to calm down, behave 232 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 5: I'm hysterical, I'm too emotional, i cry too much. I 233 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 5: got all sorts of stories. We could do a separate 234 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 5: segment on that. But throughout medical history you see the 235 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 5: specter of the hysterical diagnosis, whether it's hysteria as a diagnosis, 236 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 5: or the anxious housewife in the nineteen sixties that's being 237 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 5: given valume, or the anxious woman today that may have 238 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 5: symptoms that are ignored or dismissed it or are told 239 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 5: to calm down. The actual diagnosis of hysteria left the 240 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 5: medical lexicon in the nineteen eighties, but women are still 241 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 5: called hysterical and lots of different derivatives in our healthcare 242 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 5: system and in our society. 243 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: As you say, is there a woman in the medical 244 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: history books that we don't talk about enough. 245 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 5: One of the challenges of writing this book was reading 246 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 5: these heartbreaking stories and textbooks where women who were presumed 247 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 5: to have something wrong with them when they did not, 248 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 5: or they had normal human behavior and were really stigmatized 249 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 5: for that was wondering, gosh, where were these voices. Even 250 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 5: the field of American kindecology was built on the backs 251 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 5: of black slaves with Mary and Simms. And yet where 252 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 5: are the voices of these women? They are lost, and 253 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 5: how would I honor them in this book where I 254 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 5: don't have their voices? So I think there's countless, countless 255 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 5: women that I wish we could hear from. There are, 256 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 5: of course, some incredible heroines, like Elizabeth Blackwell, one of 257 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 5: the first female physicians. They're incredible midwives whose stories we 258 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 5: can try to capture. But I think what I am 259 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 5: most haunted by are the women whose legacies we will 260 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 5: never know. That we can imagine how much they suffered, 261 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 5: how much they were torture in some instances, and how 262 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 5: much we have to honor their legacy even though we 263 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 5: may not know the details of it. 264 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: I want to see biopics of all these women. I 265 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: feel like that's fertile ground for narratives. Yeah, I think 266 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: we also have to talk about the history of women's 267 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: sexual health. The clitterist has this long history of being 268 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: both ignored and misunderstood at the same time. Can you 269 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: walk us through that specific history. 270 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 3: I love that you. 271 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 5: Asked me about the clitterists, because let's talk about the 272 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 5: only organ that is for pleasure. Unique like why are 273 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 5: we not considered superhuman? Why are we the inverted imperfect sex? 274 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 5: If you go back to I know, I'm getting really excited. 275 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: We love that you're getting fired up about clitteracy right now. 276 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: I mean, yes, yes, yes, yes. 277 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 5: If you go back to like Greek literature, there's a 278 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 5: famous physician Galen who literally talks about like women being 279 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 5: almost like a hidden mole, like our anatomy, that we 280 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 5: are inverted, tucked in and you know, men are like 281 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 5: the cooler, better sex because it's all kind of like 282 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 5: externally present. But hello, we are the ones that have 283 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 5: an organ which is not just a tiny pearl. By 284 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 5: the way, it was mapped not until two thousand and 285 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 5: five by a female urologist to show just how expansive 286 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 5: those nerve endings are and just how all encompassing that is. 287 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 5: You're the only ones that have this like pure pleasure 288 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 5: thing going on the fact that it's been lost and 289 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 5: found and dismissed. There was even this one doctor who 290 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 5: became the president of the Endochronology Society who claimed that 291 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 5: more primal women had a clitorist and that with higher evolution, 292 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 5: the glitterists would basically just kind of go away and 293 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 5: therefore as you become more evolved, we would lose it. 294 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 5: Is this guy just out of his mind. 295 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 2: I took a bunch of women's health classes in college 296 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: and one of my professors was telling us that the 297 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: glittorus is a small penis inside of you. 298 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 5: That's cute. 299 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: Well, but it's still default male. We still talk whether 300 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 2: that's true or not. We keep talking about it like 301 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 2: it's a male part. 302 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 303 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 5: And the number of times that men in the Renaissance 304 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 5: and beyond claim to like discover label lose find again 305 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 5: the clitterists, it's just amazing to me. And then when 306 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 5: I was in medical school, so much of the anatomical 307 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 5: drawings that we saw of like the heart or the 308 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 5: lungs were in a male body and you only saw 309 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 5: the female form and it related to our reproductive function. 310 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 5: But yeah, the clitorist was like this tiny little pearl. 311 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 5: It's way more than that. It's way more than that. Thankfully. 312 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: I want to keep going on this thread here and 313 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: just talk about empowerment, Like where we go from here 314 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: with this knowledge? Did you find examples in history where 315 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: women were not only seen but able to shape the 316 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: medicine that we practice today? I mean I'm thinking about 317 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: the rich history of doulas and midwives and the role 318 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: that women have played in helping us better understand childbirth 319 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: and the postpartum period. 320 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 5: Yes, I think with the rise of gynecology as a feel, 321 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 5: which was really a male dominated field, what you saw 322 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 5: was that these extraordinary midwives who had ancestral knowledge passed 323 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 5: down from thousands of years through women taking care of 324 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 5: other women. They were sidelined at the rise of medical science, 325 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 5: when we had germ theory and the idea that you 326 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 5: should wear gloves or wash your hands. There were so 327 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 5: many things that midwives didn't have the chance to learn 328 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 5: because they weren't even allowed to go to medical school, 329 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 5: and yet they had profound knowledge. And I think what 330 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 5: you see now is a movement to reinvigorate our healthcare 331 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 5: system with these voices, with this knowledge, with this sense 332 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 5: of empowerment, the idea that women should be trusted with 333 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 5: understanding their own bodies and having agency over their own bodies. 334 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 5: So I think there is a counter movement. There is 335 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 5: that haunting thread in our history that we can expand 336 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 5: upon today and use to empower women moving forward. 337 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: You know, as I was researching, I learned that heart 338 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 2: disease is the leading cause of death for both women 339 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: and men, but women are more likely than men to 340 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 2: die after having a heart attack. Can you explain that 341 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: to us, because I really think this information could save 342 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: somebody's life. 343 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 5: Thank you for asking that. So despite my field of 344 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 5: oncology and taking care of breast cancer, heart disease is 345 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 5: the number one pillar of women in the United States. 346 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 5: And when I was in school, was taught how women 347 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 5: present with a heart attack, it's with atypical symptoms. How 348 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 5: are we freaking atypical in our presentation when we're greater 349 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 5: than fifty percent of the population. It's the number one 350 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 5: killer of women. That in and of itself is ridiculous. 351 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 5: If you look at the movies and the late public 352 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 5: presentation of a heart attack, it's that crushing elephant on 353 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 5: the chest imagery. Women may not have that They may 354 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 5: have fatigue, they may have indigestion, they may have other 355 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 5: symptoms that they may not know are associated with a 356 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 5: heart attack. Women are more likely to call an ambulance 357 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 5: for their husband's symptoms than for themselves. They also are 358 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 5: often the primary caregivers in their family and are less 359 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 5: likely to have people to take care of themselves. So 360 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 5: there are so many factors that go into what happens 361 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 5: before a woman has a heart attack, When she has 362 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 5: a heart attack, a late diagnosis of those symptoms and 363 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 5: a heart attack, and in turn, who's caring for her afterwards. 364 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 5: We got a lot of work to do. 365 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 3: A lot. 366 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 2: I've heard that sometimes symptoms can present in women as 367 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: anxiety and so they're not believed. 368 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, that's that's the vicious thing. That's why my 369 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 5: book is called All in Her Head, because so much 370 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 5: of women's symptoms are dismissed as anxiety. And sometimes we 371 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 5: are anxious, but maybe we're anxious because something's really going 372 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 5: on and someone's dismissed us, and maybe we are just 373 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 5: purely anxious. But we need to not have that as 374 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 5: a default diagnosis when we don't know what's going on. 375 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 5: There were so many doctors that I spoke to that 376 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 5: said that becomes a default diagnosis when we are not 377 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 5: certain of what is really happening to a woman. And 378 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 5: sometimes that's because we haven't unpacked the biology of them enough, 379 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 5: so we don't understand it, and therefore it's like, oh, well, 380 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 5: she's just crazier, she's just anxious. And we don't really know, 381 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 5: so that's our default. 382 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: We've talked on the show before about how you have 383 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: to be your own best advocate in the doctor's office, 384 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: or bring somebody with you that can be your advocate. 385 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: What do you make of that idea. 386 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 5: I can tell you from my own experience, which I 387 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 5: chronicle on the conclusion of the book, which I had 388 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 5: written the whole book, and then I had this horrific 389 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 5: medical experience happened to myself, and I was horrible. I 390 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 5: shouldn't shame myself, but I was. I could not advocate 391 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 5: for myself. I did everything that I said not to do. 392 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 5: I didn't want to bother anybody. I diminished my pain. 393 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 5: I knew exactly what was going on for me, both 394 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 5: from my gut but more importantly from my years of 395 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 5: medical training, and I believed somebody else who had absolutely 396 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,239 Speaker 5: no experience in it, and I believe what they were 397 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 5: telling me about my body. So I think when you 398 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 5: are in pain, when you are suffering, having somebody else 399 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 5: advocate for you with you is so important. Because I 400 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 5: don't care how smart you are, I don't care where 401 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 5: you went to med school. I don't care any of that. 402 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 5: If you are anxious and in pain, it's impossible to 403 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 5: then be forced to advocate for yourself. So the more 404 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 5: we can have somebody with us to help do that, 405 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 5: it's incredibly important. And I think yes, we've built a 406 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 5: system that has not allowed for the space for women 407 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 5: to express themselves in fifteen minute appointments. We don't have 408 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 5: clinical trials that are necessarily set up to always include women. 409 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 5: We don't have the laboratory experiments caught up to close 410 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 5: the gender gap. For years, we've been using male mice, 411 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 5: male human subjects to study, including female specific conditions, and 412 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 5: so this system has made it that it's incredibly hard 413 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 5: for women to advocate. And again these default become, well, 414 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 5: she doesn't really know or she's just anxious, when in 415 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 5: fact we just haven't spent the time on women, both 416 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 5: in the research setting, the clinical setting, and in the 417 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 5: exam room. 418 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing that. 419 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: I read in your book that one of your goals 420 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: is to reintroduce women to their bodies system by system. 421 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 3: What do you mean by that, Well, I. 422 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 5: Think so much of the way we think about women's 423 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 5: healthcare is bikini medicine, that we've been taught that it's 424 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 5: our breasts and our reproductive function, and maybe a little 425 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 5: bit of our genitalia. And it's going to callologists who 426 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 5: handle women's health, but our entire bodies head to toe 427 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 5: are different from men. We are not small men. Our 428 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 5: biology is different. We have female specific conditions, female predominant conditions, 429 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 5: conditions that are unique to women only. And I wanted 430 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 5: to really highlight for women that women's health is not 431 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 5: just your breasts and your uterus. There's so much more 432 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 5: to understanding that. And it's not just your gynecologists that 433 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 5: should know about women's bodies, but your gas reentrologists should 434 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 5: know what can happen during menopause. Your cardiologists should know 435 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 5: the menstrual cycle as it relates to the presentation of 436 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 5: cardiac arrhythmias or changes in the rhythm of your heart. 437 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 5: It's not that women's health should be inelective in medical school. 438 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: So thinking about how we empower ourselves when we're in 439 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: the doctor's office, can you give us three ways we 440 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: can advocate for ourselves and perhaps even other women when 441 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: we're interacting with the medical community. 442 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 5: First thing I would say say is bring somebody with you, 443 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 5: a family member or friend, to take notes. I would 444 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 5: say Secondly, come prepared with questions. Again, if it's especially 445 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 5: something new or different, or you're worried about it. A 446 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 5: lot of times we want reassurance, and if you feel 447 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 5: like you're not getting that, it's important to ask your doctor. 448 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 5: Can you explain to me the rationale for why what 449 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 5: you're saying is true. If you think that I don't 450 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 5: need this extra test or I don't need this blood work, 451 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 5: and you really understand what's going on with me, walk 452 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 5: me through your rationale and understanding of what you think 453 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 5: is wrong with me. Thirdly, I think it's very important 454 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 5: in our imperfect complicated healthcare system now to ask how 455 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 5: information is going to be communicated with you. Now, we 456 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 5: have often these my charts or this instant access to 457 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 5: our healthcare results, but that's not going to be in 458 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 5: context of an explanation from a doctor or a nurse 459 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 5: or a nurse practitioner really understanding how you're going to 460 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 5: get that information, how you want that information, and how 461 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 5: you want to have a dialogue with your provider about 462 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 5: what's actually going on with your body as a opposed 463 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 5: to having to google word by word random medical language 464 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 5: that you might see in a report. 465 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: What can we do to influence medical research and make 466 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: sure we're represented there as well. 467 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 5: So there's enormous movement and pressure to make sure that 468 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 5: we are including women in clinical trials and also that 469 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 5: we are voicing what we need to have happened before 470 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 5: clinical trials even are designed. We need to make sure 471 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 5: that we're listening to women to understand what the problems are. 472 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 5: But if you are part of a medical system where 473 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 5: somebody asks you to participate in a clinical trial, it's 474 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 5: incredibly important that we do. We know that often women 475 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 5: are underrepresented, minorities are tremendously underrepresented, especially in the cancer world, 476 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 5: and we need to make sure that the research that's 477 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 5: being done is of course with informed consent, that people 478 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 5: understand that they are not quote unquote guinea pigs what 479 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 5: the research is about, and that the results of that 480 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 5: reflect the diversity of our society as well. 481 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: What gives you hope when it comes to what's being 482 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: done in the medical industry to close the gap between genders. 483 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: What are the bright spots that you think we should 484 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: know about. 485 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 5: There are so many bright spots, and I think a 486 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 5: lot of it has come from this groundswell in our 487 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 5: society saying this is not good enough. There are incredible 488 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 5: female specific startups that are happening right now. You see 489 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 5: entire movements in academic medicine to focus on women's health. 490 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 5: You see in medical schools that it's not just a 491 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,959 Speaker 5: random elective, but that all medical subspecialties, all medical students 492 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 5: are being required to learn about women's bodies in a 493 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 5: more holistic way. There's tremendous momentum and lots of reasons 494 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 5: to have hope. 495 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: Doctor Coleman, I was so interested to read that you 496 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: ask your patients this question, what brings you joy? Why 497 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 2: do you ask that question? 498 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 5: Oh, it's my favorite question to ask, because that's where 499 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 5: life is. We are all we all have this fear 500 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 5: of death in varying existential ways, but we're here because 501 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 5: we want to We want to thrive. We want to 502 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 5: have those incredible days that are never perfect, but have 503 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 5: these bright sides and moments of just pure bliss. When 504 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 5: I ask my patients what brings them joy, it gives 505 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 5: me this unique window into who they are, whether it's 506 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 5: you know, dancing at home to Latin rhythms or playing 507 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 5: the piano or going for a hike. And especially in 508 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 5: my field, there's so much focus on surviving, surviving, surviving 509 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 5: and getting through some horrible treatment, when in fact people 510 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 5: want on the other side of that to feel like 511 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 5: they are still alive and they are not just surviving 512 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 5: but thriving. And for me personally, I have a hard 513 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 5: job of talking about really anxious topics and fear of 514 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 5: death and mortality and recurrence. And to be able to 515 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 5: have those moments of energetic connection with the patient, to 516 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 5: know what they love and what they enjoy, gives me 517 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 5: so much pleasure and often I learn about cool things 518 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 5: in New York City that I can do too. You know, 519 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 5: who doesn't want to swing from a pole everything? 520 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: Now and then? So I want to ask you, because 521 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 2: you did mention you have such a tough job and 522 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 2: you're with people at some of the worst and hardest 523 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: moments of their life. What brings you joy? 524 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 5: I love to dance. I'm definitely a little bit of 525 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 5: a WEIRDO. 526 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 3: What kind of dance? Ooh? 527 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 5: Everything? I'm really good at hip hop. I grew up 528 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 5: dancing hip hop. I love sausa dance, I love Latin rhythms. 529 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 5: I'll pretty much dance to anything. And I you know, 530 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 5: there's like those diaries that are like dance like no 531 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,719 Speaker 5: one's watching. I will dance like no one's watching, and 532 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 5: like everybody's watching. 533 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Comyan, thank you so much for joining us and 534 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: just enlightening us today. 535 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Doctor Colemen my pleasure. 536 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: Doctor Elizabeth Coleman is an oncologist, medical historian, and the 537 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: author of its All Inner Head, The Truth and Lies 538 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: Early medicine taught us about women's bodies and why it 539 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: matters today. 540 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 2: We just talked about the importance of advocating for ourselves 541 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: and each other in the doctor's office. 542 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 3: That's right, Danielle. 543 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to open up about our 544 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: own personal experience with what it means to have each 545 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: other's back in the workplace. 546 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. All right, besties, We're back, Danielle. 547 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: I think we got to end today's episode a little differently. 548 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 2: Yes, we are not doing what we usually do because 549 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: we had an experience unlike anything we've ever had. 550 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: It was an experience that I don't want to speak 551 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: for you, Danielle, but I feel like it brought us 552 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: closer together and in talking with some of the women 553 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: that we work with, I think a lot of women 554 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: can relate to what happened. 555 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 3: So yes, I want to include you. Yeah. 556 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And in the spirit of honesty, I feel like 557 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 2: when Channy came on this show, one of the things 558 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 2: she told us was to not shy away from hard topics. 559 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 3: This is one of those tough conversations. So here we go. 560 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: We were doing some press interviews for the show, right, 561 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: and we did a bunch of interviews, and then we 562 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: got to the last conversation, and that's when things got really, 563 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: really bizarre. One of the hosts said the most degrading 564 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,959 Speaker 1: thing that has ever been said to me in a 565 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: professional setting. 566 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 567 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: This host told me that he's been following my TV 568 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: news career over the years and that he has a 569 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: recurring dream about me where he bends his head down 570 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: and I pat him on his head and say, good boy. 571 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: He said this in an interview to my face. 572 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 2: I know you're even shaking recounting it. 573 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 3: But it gets worse. 574 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, he said, tall, gorgeous women are supposed to just 575 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: be on the cover of Vanity Fair or Cosmo or 576 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: something like that, not there on my TV telling me 577 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: interesting stuff. 578 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 2: How did you feel in the moment when he said 579 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 2: it to you? 580 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: In the moment, I was really shocked and flustered, and 581 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: I kind of froze, to be honest, it broke my 582 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: spirit because I've worked so hard over the past fifteen 583 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: years to be taken seriously, and when you hear a 584 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: comment like that, it just makes me think about all 585 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: the other women who are working so hard to be 586 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: taken seriously and to just gain an ounce of respect. 587 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 2: You know, I actually learned something from the interaction too, 588 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: because you reported it, and I have felt uncomfortable in 589 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: so many situations over the last ten years of my career, 590 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: and I've never reported anything. I get mad at myself 591 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 2: for how I respond, because I should have said something else. 592 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 3: That's what I was feeling too. 593 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: I could feel that in you, you're more mad at 594 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: yourself than you are them, which is the messed up 595 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: part about it. 596 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: It's a messed up part because I shouldn't be mad 597 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: at myself, but I still, of course I'm thinking of 598 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: all these you know, great shower comebacks that I I 599 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: would have said if I didn't feel so damn conditioned 600 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: in the moment to just. 601 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 3: Be a good girl. 602 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: But thank God that you were there, because I felt 603 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: so supported and cared for by you in that moment, 604 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: because you really came to my defense. 605 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 3: In a really big way, in a powerful way. Danielle, 606 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: you're gonna make me cry. 607 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: No, but you said you pushed back, and you said, listen, 608 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: the reason why we're doing this show is to combat 609 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: everything you just said, and and to let people know 610 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: that women can be multi dimensional, that we can be 611 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: attractive and informed, that we can be funny and smart, 612 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: that we can be direct and curious. So thank you. 613 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: How did you find the words in that moment? It 614 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 1: seemed like it wasn't hard for you. 615 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I just want to I'm I 616 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 2: cry when other people cry empathy crying. I'm also crying 617 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: because I felt you so deeply, like you always have 618 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 2: the words, and so I could feel you not being 619 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 2: able to find the words. And I have been there 620 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 2: so many times. The reason I found the words in 621 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 2: that moment, I think were because I hadn't found the 622 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: words countless other times when I've felt put down and 623 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: disrespected and degraded at work. And I also think it's 624 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 2: a lot easier to find the words when it's not you, 625 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: Like you got the brunt of it. It was a 626 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: lot easier for me to have your back than it 627 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: was for you in that moment to have your back, 628 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: and I think being a woman as a team sport. 629 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: I have one more question for you, though, Yeah, how 630 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: did you find the courage to not minimize it and 631 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: to report it? 632 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 3: I think I'm over it. I'm thirty six years old. 633 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: You reach a point where you're just like, no more, 634 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm not going to let this happen anymore, you know, 635 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: like we have let it happen, sometimes to preserve our 636 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,719 Speaker 1: own safety, sometimes to preserve the safety of others. 637 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 3: But I'm over it. I'm done. 638 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: Like we should be calling out this behavior, we should 639 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: be declaring it as unacceptable. 640 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: I feel amped up by what you just said. No, really, 641 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 2: that's because that's kind of like the whole freaking point 642 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: of the show, you know, like we're all so over it. 643 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:37,719 Speaker 3: It is over it. 644 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 2: I'm never not having the words anymore, like I'm not, 645 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: We're done. And I think the more we have each 646 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 2: other's back in that, like there's so much power in 647 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: numbers and support. I think part of the point of 648 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 2: the show is regardless of what industry you're in, like 649 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: we are making a shift. Hello, Sunshine has given us 650 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 2: a huge platform. I'm an opportunity and kind of lit 651 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 2: the torch for that. I think the takeaway for us is, 652 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: let's come to this show every day and do that. 653 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, So the more that we look for ways 654 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: to do that, to edify, to unify. 655 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 3: That's powerful. 656 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: Get you with all the words again, edify. I love 657 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 2: the word outify chi vocabulary, so do you. 658 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 3: I'll look here. 659 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm sitting next to an sat prep 660 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: over job. 661 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening, besties. We are so 662 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: happy to be on this journey with you. That's it 663 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: for today's show. Tomorrow we have Peloton instructor Ali Love. 664 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: She's giving us insight into how to up the anti 665 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: on energizing our lives. Listen and follow the bright side 666 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 667 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: your podcasts. I'm Simone Voice. You can find me at 668 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: simone Voice on Insta, Jaga and TikTok. 669 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 3: I'd love to hear from you. 670 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok. That's r O 671 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 2: B A Y. We'll see you tomorrow. Keep looking on 672 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: the bright side.