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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller DOCU edition. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Jennifer Fessler. So today we are talking about

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Speaker 1: the Netflix docuseries American Nightmare, and this story is certainly

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Speaker 1: a nightmare. On March twenty third, twenty fifteen, Aaron Quinn

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Speaker 1: and his girlfriend Denise Huskins were asleep in their home

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Speaker 1: and at three am, they were awoken to a home invader.

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Speaker 1: Aaron was tied up and sedated, while Denise was abducted

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Speaker 1: from the home and held hostage for forty eight hours.

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Speaker 1: This case tells the shocking story of these two victims,

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Speaker 1: who were believed to be lying by the Vallejo Police Department.

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Speaker 1: Law enforcement claimed the case was a hoax and that

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Speaker 1: Denise was following the plot of Gone Girl. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you guys have seen the movie, but they

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Speaker 1: thought that she was a real life Gone Girl. So

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Speaker 1: this documentary was so hard, as many of them are.

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Speaker 1: Most of them are so hard to watch. And Denise

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Speaker 1: is the most amazing woman. And and Aaron, you feel

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Speaker 1: his pain in this and these these two were just

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Speaker 1: brutalized by law enforcement. And obviously Denise was brutalized by

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Speaker 1: her captor and we're going to talk to her all

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Speaker 1: about it and just sort of talk about the case

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Speaker 1: and the way their words were twisted against them. So

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Speaker 1: I'm going to bring in this unbelievable heroic woman. Hello

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Speaker 1: to Denise.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Thank you, thank you for having me, Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for being here with us.

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Speaker 1: I have to say first, and I'm sure most people,

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Speaker 1: when they, you know, begin with an interview, want you

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Speaker 1: to know how sorry that they are for everything that

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Speaker 1: you've been through. Documentary is. It's well done and it's fascinating,

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Speaker 1: but it is all so so heartbreaking for me as

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Speaker 1: of you or I can only imagine what you've gone

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Speaker 1: through in real life and real time, and I hope

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Speaker 1: that you're doing okay.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate you saying that.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's been eleven years and there's still a

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Speaker 4: lot of ups and downs with it all, and part

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Speaker 4: of that is our choice to share what we went

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Speaker 4: through publicly, and even now we're still trying to do

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Speaker 4: that with speaking in front of law enforcement and other

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Speaker 4: survivors and advocates and trying to advocate for legislative changes

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Speaker 4: and things that inherently are uncomfortable, and you know, we

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Speaker 4: have to kind of relive it over and over again.

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Speaker 4: But there's a greater purpose we feel that makes it worthwhile,

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Speaker 4: especially being parents of two young girls, Like you go

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Speaker 4: through something awful and you want to give some kind

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Speaker 4: of meaning or purpose it.

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Speaker 1: I hope that if something happened to me like what

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Speaker 1: you have been through, I would be that strong. I

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Speaker 1: doubt it very seriously, but I hope that I would be.

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Speaker 1: I had actually saw yesterday this woman whose son was

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Speaker 1: murdered speak at this luncheon, and she said one of

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Speaker 1: the hardest things for her was when we peep ask her,

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Speaker 1: they say how are you? And for whatever reason, she said,

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Speaker 1: how am I? So I have a dagger sticking out

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Speaker 1: of my chest that you may not see, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't go away. It's there all the time, you know,

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Speaker 1: it changes, And she's also turning her tragedy into something meaningful.

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Speaker 2: And it was.

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Speaker 1: It was just so fascinating and admirable and everything wonderful.

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Speaker 1: And so I do want to talk to you, obviously

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Speaker 1: about everything you're doing now, which I can't even believe.

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Speaker 1: But let's start off, if it's okay with you, just

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Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about the documentary.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's been eleven years. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I want to ask you how you're moving on,

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Speaker 1: but I know that you are now married with two

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Speaker 1: beautiful young daughters. They are so adorable. We saw them

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Speaker 1: on the beach at the end of the documentary. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've kind of already answered the question, but

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's still I would think day to time

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Speaker 1: kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the gosh, being a parent is such

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Speaker 4: a special gift. And our oldest was born five years

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Speaker 4: to the day of when I was released from the kidnapping,

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Speaker 4: which was just like this crazy full circle moment in life.

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Speaker 2: Wow, to the day that is crazy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think it's just a representation of life

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Speaker 4: cycling and continuing to move forward. You know, you never

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Speaker 4: fully move on from something like that. But being a

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Speaker 4: parent now especially, it's like this huge responsibility knowing more

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Speaker 4: of the bigger picture issues, the systemic flaws, and how

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Speaker 4: vulnerable women can be, but people in general could be.

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Speaker 4: And so we feel in a way it's our duty

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Speaker 4: to try to make some changes and create some awareness,

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Speaker 4: you know, and hopefully leave the world a better place

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Speaker 4: for them.

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Speaker 1: Well, I certainly hope that it's not the same place

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Speaker 1: as it was for you eleven years ago when you're poor.

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Speaker 1: It's watching this is so infuriating, right, It's watching what

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Speaker 1: first your husband went through and then obviously the unbelievable

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Speaker 1: torment that you had to go through after you were released.

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Speaker 1: And I, as I'm watching it, I'm having all these

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Speaker 1: questions and I want to scream a little bit. Right,

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Speaker 1: just seeing how Aaron was treated was so infuriating. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that that was eleven years ago, which is

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Speaker 1: really not that long, right? Do you think things have

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Speaker 1: changed from then until now? Because when I looked at it,

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Speaker 1: it seems so barbaric to me. Yeah, and I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know that wasn't you know thirty years ago? That

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Speaker 1: was eleven years ago? Where and obvious I'm gonna ask

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Speaker 1: you this, but like where was the lawyer and this

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Speaker 1: poor young man was tortured? So do you think things

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Speaker 1: have changed or is that still what's going on?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Things are changing, and it's it's slow, it's hard. It's

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Speaker 4: a cultural, uh challenge because sadly, what we learned is

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Speaker 4: that that's how these officers were trained. And I mean,

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Speaker 4: we wanted to believe it was just a one off

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Speaker 4: and they were just you know, rogue officers and bad

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Speaker 4: apples and all of that. But as we dug in

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Speaker 4: preparing initially for a defense because we were being threatened

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Speaker 4: with prosecution, we discovered, yeah, that it's a common training technique,

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Speaker 4: the retechnique. It's guilt presumptive. So the which is it

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Speaker 4: was a really like desta destabilizing thing to to learn presumptive.

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Speaker 2: I've never heard yes, yeah.

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Speaker 4: So you grow up thinking you're innocent until proven guilty

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Speaker 4: in this country. But then this technique, they basically go

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Speaker 4: through like kind of a pseudoscience initial read on whether

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Speaker 4: they believe someone's lying or not. And once they've determined

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Speaker 4: in their mind if someone's lying based off of body

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Speaker 4: language or eye rolls or whatever it is, then go

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Speaker 4: in with the goal to get a confession. And so

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Speaker 4: there's a step process to do that that they followed

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Speaker 4: with Aaron because they believed and that's confirmation bias. They

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Speaker 4: believed that he murdered me, and so everything was focused

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Speaker 4: on trying to break him down to confess to my murder.

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Speaker 4: And that's what people saw it initially, Like so many

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Speaker 4: people could connect with what I went through. They could

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Speaker 4: kind of understand the depth and terror of kidnapping and

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Speaker 4: rape and all of that, but they couldn't fully grasp

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Speaker 4: what the torture that Aaron had to go through, already

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Speaker 4: being in a traumatized state. And so I think the

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Speaker 4: documentary was helpful and allowing people to really be confronted

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Speaker 4: with that. And again it's not common. We've seen over

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Speaker 4: and over again that it happens. And it also this

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Speaker 4: technique is used sometimes on sexual assault survivors coming to

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Speaker 4: report a crime, and they if the investigators think she's

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Speaker 4: lying or he's lying, then they use the similar techniques.

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Speaker 3: And again you're going in already.

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Speaker 4: Going through trauma, already broken, already terrified. And he endured

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Speaker 4: eighteen hours. I think it's like six hours that when

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Speaker 4: a false confession comes up, it's like the time limit.

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Speaker 4: And he extended that because he believed that I was

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Speaker 4: alive and he felt like if he got an attorney,

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Speaker 4: if he didn't help, then they'd stop looking for me.

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Speaker 1: Wait, but Denise said, eighteen hours is that consecutive?

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Speaker 4: Well, so he's there for eighteen hours, so then there's

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Speaker 4: these windows of time where they come in and they

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Speaker 4: go hard at him, and it's a good like forty

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Speaker 4: five minutes to an hour of just like repeating the

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Speaker 4: same things of your cold calculated monster. Maybe you made

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Speaker 4: a mistake. We think you made a mistake. It's gonna

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Speaker 4: be everything's gonna be so much easier. And then they

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Speaker 4: start using his family against him. His brother is a

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Speaker 4: special agent FBI, right, and they're like, you're going to

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Speaker 4: ruin your family's good name, You're gonna.

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Speaker 3: Ruin your brother's career. You're not going to get physical.

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Speaker 4: They take everything that is important to you and they

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Speaker 4: use it against you.

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Speaker 1: But Denise, I mean, I watch it so at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure this was purposeful. So we see Aaron

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Speaker 1: and we don't know where he is, right, He's in

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Speaker 1: a chair and he could be in jail, Like that's

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Speaker 1: sort of what occurred. Like I wasn't sure. I know,

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Speaker 1: obviously the story is out there, but I wasn't. I

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Speaker 1: try to be I try to go into these things

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Speaker 1: not really knowing, even if I vaguely remember. So and

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Speaker 1: I've seen enough of these now that sometimes you capture Mean,

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Speaker 1: he could have been guilty, right, So like in another documentary,

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Speaker 1: maybe they would have caught this kind of footage of

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Speaker 1: him and still yet he was convicted and you don't know.

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Speaker 1: So I'm watching it and I'm thinking from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: this kid not kid, but to me, he loo, this

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Speaker 1: poor kid is not fucking guilty. What are they seeing

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Speaker 1: that I don't see? He is traumatized and he is

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Speaker 1: Why are they so intent on it?

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Speaker 2: Didn't make sense? Obviously, I'm sure you get asked this

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Speaker 2: a lot.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, he didn't think to say the word lawyer from

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Speaker 1: the get go. I'm thinking things are very different, because

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Speaker 1: as soon as he said it, the one detective or

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Speaker 1: the lie detector guy was you sort of did you

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Speaker 1: know like this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this old shit?

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Speaker 1: Now, you know whatever, We're screwed now. But I don't

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Speaker 1: know why he didn't say lawyer, but he's young and

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Speaker 1: scared and traumatized. Assuming that had maybe he just didn't

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Speaker 1: think too. But I'm watching him and I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: how this whole story is going to play out, but

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Speaker 1: I don't I'm not looking at him thinking psychopath guilty.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking this poor kid, where is his mother?

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Speaker 1: And even like the fact that they did the lie

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Speaker 1: detector and they lied to him about it, there's nothing

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Speaker 1: illegally illegal here.

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Speaker 2: This is protocol.

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Speaker 4: Well, Yeah, you know, in America, you police are allowed

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Speaker 4: to lie.

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Speaker 3: They're legally allowed to lie.

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Speaker 4: In other countries, they've they've changed that, but it's still

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Speaker 4: again that kind of cultural idea that police should be

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Speaker 4: allowed to lie. And there's plenty of people who've like

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Speaker 4: crusaded to make change and tried to change laws around that,

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Speaker 4: but there's still a lot of pushback. But that's why

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Speaker 4: these these real life stories are so important, is to

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Speaker 4: show the damage that can.

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Speaker 3: Be caused when it goes to that degree.

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Speaker 4: And again, like you, I mean, we're privileged. We've never

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Speaker 4: had to be in that situation before. So and also

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Speaker 4: his brother is a special agent in the FBI, so

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Speaker 4: he believed in law enforcement do.

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Speaker 1: They call his brother, like when it first happened as

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Speaker 1: a courtesy, did they reach out?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So it was the toys of the directors and

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Speaker 4: producers of the documentary to not include anything about his

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Speaker 4: brother because he wasn't allowed to participate because he's still

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Speaker 4: an FBI agent. But no, his family, his mom and

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Speaker 4: dad and his brother, an FBI agent, were in the

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Speaker 4: waiting room all all night, in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 4: and law enforcement went to them and they even told

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Speaker 4: his mom yeah, we think he killed her, and she

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Speaker 4: like screamed and like fell to the ground, and they

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Speaker 4: lied to his brother and said that he's had a

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Speaker 4: psychotic break.

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Speaker 3: His pupils are dilated.

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Speaker 2: He's killing me. You are killing me. How is this?

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Speaker 2: I've never heard of such a thing. This is so disgusting.

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Speaker 1: I know this, mother, I mean, listen, Denise, at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, I want to talk to you,

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Speaker 1: and you know you've been through that's hell, and then

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Speaker 1: add on what you've been through. I just cannot believe.

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of this, of putting people through that.

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Speaker 1: I cannot understand it. I can't. I'm so glad and

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about this later that you're working towards making changes.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I'd be strong enough to do that,

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Speaker 1: but it is disgusting and infuriating. So if anything, I

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Speaker 1: think most of yours are going to feel this way,

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Speaker 1: completely and utterly outraged. I cannot believe that. And did

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Speaker 1: his mother or brother say he needs a lawyer?

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Speaker 4: Technically it has to be Aaron to say that he

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Speaker 4: wants a lawyer, and then sometimes they I mean, this

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Speaker 4: is where it gets really messy, and quite frankly disgusting.

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Speaker 4: If someone says I think I need a lawyer, or

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Speaker 4: I think I might need to talk to a lawyer,

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Speaker 4: that they can still argue wasn't a declaration of needing

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Speaker 4: an attorney. So even if you say it, it doesn't

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Speaker 4: necessarily mean it. And in fact, that scene when you

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Speaker 4: see Aaron say well maybe I need a lawyer, because

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Speaker 4: he's like, it's we're just going in circles, they go out,

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Speaker 4: and they actually Lee had called Aaron's brother, the FBI agent,

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Speaker 4: into the room to see if he could get a

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Speaker 4: confession out of Aaron, under the premise he's had a

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Speaker 4: psychotic break, we think he killed her, his pupils are dilated,

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Speaker 4: all these things, and then as soon as his brother

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Speaker 4: walks in, Aaron just breaks down and he starts crying

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Speaker 4: because he finally sees someone who loves him, knows him,

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Speaker 4: cares about him, and could do something to help. And

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Speaker 4: he even Aaron told him I asked for an attorney,

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Speaker 4: and his brother's like, wait, what you asked for an attorney?

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Speaker 3: Like, that's the next thing I'm going to do.

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Speaker 4: And so it was his brother who left this stage

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Speaker 4: and started calling to get an attorney. But they weren't

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Speaker 4: making steps to get the attorney. In fact, he told

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Speaker 4: that main detective Mustard, Aaron's brother told him, look, he

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Speaker 4: asked for an attorney, I'm gonna go get it. And

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Speaker 4: the detective said, I don't know that. That doesn't really

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Speaker 4: work very well. I want to try a few more things.

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Speaker 2: First, Well didn't his brother? Was his brother like you dude?

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Speaker 2: That is crazy?

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Speaker 4: See, I know so like the egregiousness of it all

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Speaker 4: it I mean, God, anytime to talk about it, it's

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Speaker 4: like we lived it. It's like, but it's just it's

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Speaker 4: so extreme that Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Could he had left?

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Speaker 1: Could Aaron have He wasn't under arrest, so could he

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Speaker 1: that whole time, that eighteen hours? At any point, could

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Speaker 1: he have walked himself right out? I know he wanted

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Speaker 1: to help because he was so scared for you.

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Speaker 4: Well, he also they took everything of his his keys,

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Speaker 4: his wallet, his phone. They stripped him, literally stripped him naked,

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Speaker 4: photographed him naked, and then put prison.

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Speaker 1: I saw, So was that was that a mind excuse

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Speaker 1: my language, a mind fuck, like to put him in prison?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I don't he's Mustard said, this is

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Speaker 4: all we got. You're in prison because this is all

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Speaker 4: we got. I don't, right, you know, I mean, it's

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Speaker 4: just it's and.

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Speaker 1: Why couldn't he wear his clothes they were trying to

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Speaker 1: examine them or well.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and then that and that is understandable, right, but

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Speaker 4: like they could have had his parents and bring him

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Speaker 4: sweatpants or something, you know. So, I mean it was

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Speaker 4: all really about like degrading him into this character that

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Speaker 4: they deemed him to be. And yeah, he so his

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Speaker 4: house was a crime scene. He doesn't have a car.

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Speaker 4: He's in a windowless room. As soon as they leave,

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Speaker 4: you can hear the door lock, so there's no indication

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Speaker 4: that he's actually free to go. He does have shoes

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Speaker 4: or socks on. He doesn't know where his family is.

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Speaker 4: That whole time he's asking do you know where my

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Speaker 4: family is? He doesn't know his family's in the station.

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Speaker 4: They keep saying like, I don't know. We'll get back

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Speaker 4: to you on it, and he's ultimately staying because he

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Speaker 4: wants them to find me, and he thinks, Okay, I

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Speaker 4: just have to explain it, and if I explain it

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Speaker 4: more because I'm telling the truth, then they'll believe me.

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Speaker 4: And you went into it with an innocent's mindset thinking

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Speaker 4: if you are innocent and you're telling the truth, then

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Speaker 4: the truth shall prevail and it'll all come out and that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just not it's just it doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: That the one shot they got of him, I could

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Speaker 1: actually cry just thinking of it. I get but when

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Speaker 1: he like put his feet up, he put the chairs

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Speaker 1: together just to lay down, to put his head down. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm a mother as well. I'm just

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Speaker 1: I cannot even imagine. And his parents and your parents

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Speaker 1: did such a beautiful job in this documentary. They both

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Speaker 1: sets were so eloquent, and you know, I was so

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Speaker 1: touched by all the different things that they said, specifically

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Speaker 1: your dad and the scene when he was talking to

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Speaker 1: the reporter.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, yeah, yeah, I digress. How are they doing now?

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Speaker 3: Makes me emotional?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's okay.

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Speaker 3: Well, Aaron's dad just passed away this Christmas.

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Speaker 2: Oh I'm so sorry to hear that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's.

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Speaker 4: You know, he's he was a shy man, keeps to himself,

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Speaker 4: very intelligent, was an et hour doctor for thirty years,

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Speaker 4: and he you know, so it was a big thing

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Speaker 4: for him just to like sit in front of a

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Speaker 4: camera and talk about this horrible experience.

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Speaker 3: And I mean all of our.

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Speaker 4: Family members they did it because they knew how important

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Speaker 4: it was not just to us, but like for people

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Speaker 4: to see how these things can happen. And it's really

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Speaker 4: hard for I think sometimes when you watch these shows,

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Speaker 4: and especially if you watch a lot of them, I mean,

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Speaker 4: you can see the emotional impact, but you really you

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Speaker 4: really don't know the depth of it and how challenging

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Speaker 4: it is and how intimidating it is to sit in

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Speaker 4: front of cameras an interviewer. You know, everyone has a

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Speaker 4: plan of what they're hoping to get from you, and

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Speaker 4: you don't want to disappoint them, and you don't want

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Speaker 4: to you know.

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Speaker 3: So there's just a lot of pressure and a lot

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Speaker 3: of impact.

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Speaker 4: And so it was just it was so amazing for

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Speaker 4: them to be able to do it, because, like you said,

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Speaker 4: you know people, you're a mom, you're you know, you're

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Speaker 4: a brother, you're you can you can feel it's these

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Speaker 4: things that happened. And when police target and falsely accused

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Speaker 4: and wrongfully convict, it's not just that one person.

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Speaker 3: It destroys family of.

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Speaker 4: Course, and and I mean it just there's just this

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Speaker 4: like big almost like a bomb goes off and just

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Speaker 4: course a trickle effect lead. I mean I had friends

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Speaker 4: who were like tertiary friends that would have nightmares, you know, yeah, yeah,

359
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Speaker 4: so so yeah, it's it was a lot for them,

360
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Speaker 4: and I'm just so proud of all of them that

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Speaker 4: were when it too a little anxious and you know,

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Speaker 4: but it really helped to show people the full scope of.

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Speaker 3: Something like this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and your brother, your sweet brother and wanted to

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Speaker 1: just protect you. And eleven years ago, how old are

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Speaker 1: you guys?

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Speaker 3: Know? Forty? Sorry, it's just funny to say that out loud.

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Speaker 1: Really, that's the that told be the hardest.

369
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Speaker 2: Thing you ever have to say, forty or baby still

370
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Speaker 2: to me. But anyway, but I.

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Speaker 3: Was t I mean it was twenty nine at the time.

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Speaker 1: I just think my son now is twenty six, and

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Speaker 1: he just reminded me a little bit of Aaron. And

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Speaker 1: after that, I don't know how a mother. The anger

375
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Speaker 1: I think would have been so overwhelming. Everybody would have

376
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Speaker 1: I would just everybody would have to die a slow pan.

377
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Speaker 1: I would be I don't know how I could control

378
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Speaker 1: the anger. I wonder how your parents.

379
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Speaker 4: Aaron's mom especially, she's Mama Bear and she's like if

380
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 4: she sees that there's a problem with whatever she's confronted

381
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Speaker 4: with her life, she goes at it and we had

382
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Speaker 4: to like rain her in. Yeah, especially you know, we

383
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Speaker 4: both we have Aaron and I both had separate criminal

384
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Speaker 4: defense attorneys. But once we were reunited, we were all

385
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,159
Speaker 4: working together as a team. And you know, it was

386
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 4: like the media frenzy was crazy and everyone wanted to talk,

387
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Speaker 4: and they're trying to kind of manipulate you to talk

388
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Speaker 4: before it's best.

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Speaker 3: For you and your case.

390
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Speaker 4: And they go under the impression of if you don't

391
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Speaker 4: talk now, this is the one time you're gonna you know,

392
00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,600
Speaker 4: this is someone needs to hear from a family member,

393
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Speaker 4: someone you know. And so there's this pressure of like

394
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 4: I need to do something. And so there's times where

395
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,120
Speaker 4: she was like driving to go give give an interview

396
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Speaker 4: and we're.

397
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Speaker 3: Like no, no, no, no, no, no, come back.

398
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's it's hard because you want to like

399
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 4: scream and shout to the world and and show them

400
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 4: like no, this is this is the truth, this is

401
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 4: what really happened.

402
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 3: What you were told is a lie, and you want

403
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Speaker 3: to correct the narrative.

404
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 4: But then also if you're being threatened with prosecution, and

405
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 4: you have to plan to defend yourself legally. You have

406
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 4: you there's there's strategy, and you have to really make

407
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 4: sure that you're taking the proper steps.

408
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 3: It was so hard like.

409
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Speaker 2: That straight there was strength you guys.

410
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we had it like I did that in captivity, Like, oh,

411
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,200
Speaker 4: you didn't fight, you didn't scream. I'm like, I want

412
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 4: I even had the lead fbie and ask me like,

413
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 4: did you did you try to escape? Did you think

414
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 4: about it? And I'm like, oh, no, I can't.

415
00:21:58,359 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 3: I didn't think about it at all.

416
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I cannot. I cannot believe that these questions are asked.

417
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 3: I know.

418
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: All right, So I'm gonna ask you some questions just

419
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 1: about if it's okay with you, just about the actual incident.

420
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: So one of the questions I have here is like,

421
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,479
Speaker 1: what stands out the most in the first few hours

422
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: you were taken.

423
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 4: Well, you're trying to hold onto your sanity. Quite frankly,

424
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,679
Speaker 4: I'm terrified. I'm confused. I don't know what's happening. I

425
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 4: don't know why this is. You know, like you're just

426
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 4: trying to make sense of it, and you're really like

427
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 4: literally needing to live. Second by second, and pay attention

428
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 4: to any little thing.

429
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 2: Back that you had that wherewithal?

430
00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, watching you, watching you, hearing

431
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: you say that you were counting the turns and you

432
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: recognize it. It was probably a Mustang and you I'm thinking

433
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: to myself, are you kidding me? How do you have

434
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: the wherewithal? In the trunk of a car? Blindfolded?

435
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 5: Like?

436
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 2: Are you thinking it?

437
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: One day they're gonna ask me, and I'm gonna have

438
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: to help, how did you have the wherewithal?

439
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 4: To? Even it's kind of silly, But like I when

440
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 4: I was being interrogated by the police, I just when

441
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 4: they're asking me those stupid questions. I mean, I'm telling

442
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 4: them like I'm trying, because there is moments as soon

443
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 4: as that trunk door closed, I'm starting to hyperventilate. I'm

444
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 4: thinking something's gonna go wrong. They're going to burn me

445
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 4: alive in the car. Like you're just thinking of all

446
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,199
Speaker 4: the all the possible scenarios, because you also need to

447
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 4: be prepared for everything, and so your mind wanders and like, no,

448
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 4: I need to stay focused.

449
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know what you're talking about.

450
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: How do you you're a young woman, have the your

451
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: parents did a good job raising you, my friend, that

452
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: you could say to yourself, I have to have the wherewithal,

453
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 1: I mean that the fear didn't just grip you.

454
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, I think partly what helped me

455
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 4: is being a physical therapist, and I have an understanding

456
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 4: of the trauma response and all the different like systemic

457
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 4: things that happen. I mean, as soon as I woke

458
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 4: up to a strange man's voice saying like, be calm,

459
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 4: We're not here to hurt you, and I'm seeing a

460
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 4: flashing white light and red laser dots and like they

461
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 4: have guns, Like there's people here, We're surrounded, but you know,

462
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 4: and I could feel that physiological response happened and it

463
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 4: floods like it it's almost like you've taken a drug

464
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 4: and there's this whole chemical, hormonal thing that's happening. Your

465
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 4: heart's racing, Like I could feel almost like my eyeballs

466
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 4: were shaking and I like focus them, but I knew

467
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 4: what was happening in my body, so I could. I mean,

468
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 4: I literally try to teach people how to calm their breathing.

469
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 4: So I think those types of that's amazing techniques helped

470
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 4: me stay grounded, or even like having to put the

471
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 4: zip ties on Aaron, like I was just focusing on

472
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 4: him and trying to ground myself in the moment and

473
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 4: then knowing and just telling myself like I need to

474
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 4: pay attention.

475
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 3: I need to pay attention.

476
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 4: And I'm just like taking stock of every little thing,

477
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 4: of every little sound, because I don't you just don't

478
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 4: know what little.

479
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 3: Bit of information might save your life.

480
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 4: And so I I like it was It's again, it's

481
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 4: like this, even with police or even with the public

482
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 4: shaming and the misrepresentation all this stuff, like your innate

483
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 4: response is to do something, and then cognitively, I know,

484
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 4: well that's not going to help me right now. I

485
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 4: can't just react, so whatce I need to pull it

486
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 4: back in. And so the energy that it takes to

487
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 4: have the flips straight restraint is like.

488
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm hearing your words crazy. I don't get it.

489
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 2: I am fifty seven years old.

490
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: I don't get how you were able to access that strength,

491
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: not just because of your age, but you're an extraordinary

492
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: human for many reasons. But this is like, just hearing

493
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: you talk about this, I still don't get it. And

494
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 1: I'm hoping maybe well, we're gonna talk about everything that's

495
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: happening with you now.

496
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 3: But I don't want you to get it.

497
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: I don't want to get it either. I'm being honest.

498
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: I would like to know that my daughter had some

499
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: training in this area, you know, just even if it's

500
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: because trauma.

501
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: I know what it feels like to be.

502
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: Traumatized or going through something where it feels like my

503
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: eyeballs are going to come where you know, it hits

504
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: the body like that. So, but it's it's such a

505
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: useful skill, I guess for so many, well both young

506
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: women and men, to be able to process that somehow.

507
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it's just you don't know

508
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 4: until you're in a situation like.

509
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 3: That, and I hope that people don't.

510
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, like true terror feels like what it feels

511
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 4: like in your body, like you can describe it. And

512
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:08,479
Speaker 4: so but I think people are stronger than they even know.

513
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 4: And you know, a lot of people say like I

514
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 4: would never be able to dot dot dot or like

515
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 4: you know.

516
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: Do what you did, and it's like I tell them,

517
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 3: you just don't know.

518
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 4: You're surprising, And that's why I love my job as

519
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 4: a physical therapist. Like I tell people all the time,

520
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 4: Like our bodies do an incredible job protecting ourselves and

521
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 4: the resilience within. Just continue on saying, like someone living

522
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 4: with chronic pain, you just survive because you need to

523
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 4: go to work, because you need to take care of

524
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 4: your kids, you know, and in time it builds up

525
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 4: and eventually you could break down.

526
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 3: And that's where like real work and.

527
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 4: Therapy, you know, psychological, physical, all of those things help

528
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,719
Speaker 4: and like processing the healing. But in those moments of survival,

529
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 4: like it's incredible what the human body can do.

530
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: Do you share your story with your clients?

531
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 3: I do sometimes.

532
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 4: It's that's been an interesting thing to navigate because it

533
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 4: has been in and out of the news cycle in

534
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 4: different ways. Uh So, like say, you know, when we

535
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 4: had to go give our victim impact statement and speak

536
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 4: for the first time in a courtroom, I knew it

537
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,719
Speaker 4: was going to be publicized, and so for some of

538
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 4: my patients I let them know, you know, like this

539
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 4: is something that's going to happen and you might see

540
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 4: it on the news, and I'd rather you know from

541
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: me than turning on the TV. I mean, like, what

542
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 4: that's my therapist, you know. So it depends on the

543
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 4: person in the situation. But most of my patients know

544
00:28:54,640 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 4: about it. Yeah, and uh so, and in a way

545
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 4: it can help me connect on a deeper level with

546
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 4: some of them, especially because a lot of people with

547
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 4: multiple health diagnoses, chronic pain, who've been in and out

548
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 4: of PT and different types and or different doctor's offices.

549
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 4: When we really get down to it, there's some kind

550
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 4: of childhood or long term emotional trauma that is associated

551
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 4: with the layers of pain, physical pain that systems shut

552
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 4: down you know, your gut, your stomach, your heart, like

553
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 4: when you're in that chronic state of stress or when

554
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 4: you've had something really you know and stays with you.

555
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: It it adds up over time.

556
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 4: And so it's I think really eye opening and revealing

557
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 4: and healing for them to connect the dots as far

558
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 4: as why, because they can get really frustrated and like

559
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 4: and almost be mad at their body, and I just

560
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: have to remind them, like, your body has saved you,

561
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 4: has helped you.

562
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 3: This is hard, it's com flex, but this is where

563
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: it stems from and survival.

564
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: So, speaking of childhood trauma, so your mom talked about

565
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: how you had been molested as a child, and one

566
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: of the many revolting and disgusting things we learn is

567
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: that I forget was it one of the reporters of

568
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: police officers.

569
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 4: It was the detective, and I was still in captivity

570
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 4: and my family didn't know if I was alive or dead.

571
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 4: They were having them in there to listen to the

572
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 4: proof of life that was sent in by my captor

573
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 4: saying that I was alive and giving a current event

574
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 4: to confirm the day. But when they went in there,

575
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 4: before they even had her listen to the actual thing

576
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 4: that they asked her to come in and listen to,

577
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 4: they were asking again like accusatory questions about my character,

578
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 4: about my past, my relationships, my drinking, my this to that,

579
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 4: and then has anything bad happened to her?

580
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 3: And my Mom's like, oh, yeah.

581
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 4: This thing, and she doesn't just doesn't know what would

582
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 4: be helpful for whatever reason. And then you know, the

583
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 4: detective said something along the lines of, you know, my

584
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 4: experienced women who've people who've hadn't been assaulted before might

585
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 4: want to relive the thrill of it, or that.

586
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: Was the word. It was the thrill you know I've had.

587
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: I've been in therapy for many, many years, and I've

588
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: had some childhood trauma, and my my own therapist has

589
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: said to me, sometimes you are used to something or

590
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: you're you believe after a while as a victim that

591
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: something is normal and it almost feels comfortable, right, like

592
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: like being in a certain kind of pain feels comfortable.

593
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: That is a very different thing than saying than calling

594
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: it a thrill.

595
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 4: I know, and I think that maybe that's what he.

596
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 3: Was intending.

597
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 4: Or what he was thinking of, Like there's kind of

598
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 4: a repeated thing.

599
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: Pattern, say, like an abusive.

600
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 4: Parent or something, and then you kind of associate love

601
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 4: with abuse, and so sometimes that that kind of thing,

602
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 4: so that there's total complexities to that. The way in

603
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 4: which he delivered or it to my mom was as

604
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 4: if it and my younger brother as if I was

605
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 4: at fault, So as if I was I did something.

606
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 4: And then even after that, one of the officers said

607
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 4: to my mom and brother that they should watch Gone

608
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: Girl or something about Gone Girl at that point in time,

609
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 4: and I hadn't even been released yet, so they already

610
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 4: clearly had an idea of me, and it didn't matter

611
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 4: what my family told them.

612
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: First of all, I hate that stupid movie, but had

613
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: you seen it?

614
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 4: It took me like nine months to finally watch it.

615
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 4: I had heard about it, I had heard about the

616
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 4: book and the movie.

617
00:32:59,240 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: I hadn't read.

618
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 4: I hadn't seen it, So like that was one other

619
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 4: thing infuriating thing about this whole thing. It's like they're

620
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 4: saying that I'm trying to replicate something I didn't see

621
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 4: or watch or read. So it's just like how And

622
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: then when I finally did nine months later, I'm like.

623
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: There's nothing the same about that movie.

624
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 4: It makes sense because she has she inflicts injuries to herself,

625
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 4: she's super dramatic.

626
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 3: When she's released.

627
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 4: But then the law enforcement was saying they couldn't believe

628
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 4: me because I didn't seem like anything bad happened to me,

629
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 4: that I didn't show any emotion, that I didn't have

630
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 4: any physical injuries. You know, reporters wrongfully said I was

631
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 4: released or I came back unscathed, unharmed, and so it like, yeah,

632
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 4: it was. But in a way though watching it, although

633
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 4: it was infuriating, it was also it gave me some

634
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 4: level of peace because then it made me realize, like

635
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 4: it didn't matter what I did, what I said, if

636
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 4: I was dramatic and showed more emotion than they would

637
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 4: have referred to the movie and they're like, see, just

638
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 4: like or if I had, yeah, physical injuries, they wouldn't

639
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 4: have That wouldn't have been confirmation. Then something happened, they

640
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 4: would have been like, well, she did it to herself, right,

641
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 4: So I was able to release that like self blame

642
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 4: that I was holding onto.

643
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: Like you should have done something different, you should have

644
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 1: been more emotional. What a joke that you would feel

645
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: like you had to blame yourself for not reacting in

646
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: a certain way. I even thought, and I don't know

647
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: if this is true or not, but the filmmaker or

648
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 1: the director they show the actress walking back all bloodied

649
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: up into her house, and I thought to myself, so

650
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: they think that she's maybe emulating Gone Girl. There was

651
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: I don't get it. This is nothing like Gone Girl.

652
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: She didn't she wasn't being It wasn't dramatic. It was dramatic, obviously,

653
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: but in terms of like what we saw your outward

654
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: like what are you talking about?

655
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

656
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: That was I don't know if they did that on purpose.

657
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: The filmmakers kind of like, you know, oh, compare it

658
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: to this exactly.

659
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow.

660
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about when Muller was

661
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 1: discovered the officer that that connected him to the case.

662
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: Did you first learn about that? How'd you first learn

663
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 1: about that? Was it the news or was it your.

664
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 4: Lawyer or oh goodness, well, no, we there's just so

665
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 4: many things. We were not staying obviously in Aaron's home

666
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 4: because we couldn't return to it. We were like going

667
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 4: back and forth long California to my mom's or to

668
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 4: his parents, and staying with friends and family. And when

669
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 4: we were down in southern California, we got a call

670
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 4: from our attorney and said they said that they there

671
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 4: might be some new information we couldn't trust it. And

672
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 4: right before, actually right before that call, we had found

673
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 4: out because Aaron was trying to sell us home from

674
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 4: the realtor, that squatters had broken into his home and

675
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 4: changed the locks of his home, and the police were called,

676
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 4: and the same guy who answered the call for the

677
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 4: kidnapping went into the homes like, oh, yeah, I've been

678
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,959
Speaker 4: here before. They didn't like force the squatters to leave.

679
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 4: They were coming with like ups. They's completely cleaned out

680
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 4: Aaron's garage, which was like full of woodworking stuff, and

681
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 4: so we were like already super stressed about that, and like,

682
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 4: are we trying to come back up? And then we

683
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 4: hear like, there's this break in the case. They want

684
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 4: to talk to you, and I'm like, it's just it's

685
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 4: a it's fake, Like they just want to.

686
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 3: Have you come in. They're going to arrest sure. Yeah,

687
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 3: So we were just like so paranoid.

688
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 4: I mean, there's just nothing indicated before then that they

689
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 4: were actually doing anything. So we're like, why now, But

690
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 4: and my attorney said, absolutely not, do not. You're not

691
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 4: stepping in the same room as these agents. But Aaron did,

692
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,479
Speaker 4: and he with his attorneys and they said, we found

693
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 4: your laptop because Muller took his laptop. And then finally,

694
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 4: by little we understood little pieces of what happened. That

695
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 4: he was caught that for a different crime, and at

696
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,479
Speaker 4: first it made it seem like the FBI had caught them,

697
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 4: but then later we learned it was actually Missy Crusue,

698
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 4: a different detective of a different agency, for a different crime.

699
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 4: Of course, he attacked another family, and it's just so

700
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 4: devastating that that is how the truth came out, that

701
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 4: it took more people to suffer for that to happen.

702
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 4: But Missy that was like her first case as a detective,

703
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 4: and she and she saw the one string on a

704
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 4: blonde hair on blacked out swim boggles, and all the

705
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 4: victims in her case had dark hair, and she was like,

706
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 4: I'm going to keep investigating.

707
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 3: Something else happened.

708
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 4: And even as she was doing that, we later found out,

709
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 4: like even some of her colleagues were like, you're spending

710
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 4: too much time on this. We got our guy, like

711
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 4: case closed and I think that happens a lot, and

712
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 4: she's like, no, what about the blonde hair?

713
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 3: And so she kept going and that like.

714
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 4: God, thank god steps if yeah, I don't know where

715
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 4: we would be.

716
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: Are you in touch with her?

717
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we're we're very close. Our girls have hung out.

718
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 4: She has two girls our same around our same age,

719
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 4: and they When she finally reached out us, it was

720
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, a few years after the kidnapping, after some

721
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 4: of the cases were closed, and we were getting married

722
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 4: six months later, so we invited her and her husband's.

723
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 2: Oh I love that.

724
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 4: She talked about how like she was trying to eat food,

725
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 4: and there's a line of people close to us like

726
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 4: waiting to.

727
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: Think, Yes, of course, I love that.

728
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 4: Yeah. We went to each other's baby showers like we're

729
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 4: we're very much.

730
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 3: We have a text chain.

731
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: I love I don't know her unfortually, I'll probably never

732
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: meet her, I lovely send her my love.

733
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 3: I will.

734
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: After the documentary came out, How is that? How has

735
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: it been for you? I mean having to first of all,

736
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 1: just kind of to relive it, And do you feel

737
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: like the documentary was really true to your experience and

738
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 1: your story? You know, there are a lot of eyes

739
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: on you now for sure, And how.

740
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: Has that been?

741
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: Is it make things harder? Or is it somehow helpful?

742
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 4: It's there's there's good and bad with all of it, right,

743
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 4: you know. Just even the process of doing the documentary,

744
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 4: we knew we would not do it unless we wrote

745
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 4: a book about it, because we had already had like

746
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 4: a prior experience with a different producer that we we

747
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 4: thought we were.

748
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 3: Aligned and we were not.

749
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 4: They just kind of it seemed like wanted to focus

750
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 4: on sensational pieces and not the bigger picture, and we

751
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 4: wouldn't go through that and put our families through that.

752
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 4: Just to like highlight the bizarre aspects of our case.

753
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 4: We wanted to show because so many victims are not

754
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 4: believe so many people, like people are falsely accused, misjudged,

755
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 4: and it's represented. There's systemic flaws and the interrogation tactics,

756
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 4: so many things that impact so many lives that we

757
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 4: wanted to make sure we're really highlighted. And so when

758
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 4: we eventually got connected with Raw, the production company who

759
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 4: did it, we were very clear about what our goals were, Like,

760
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 4: we made them work hard.

761
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: Good, it showed, I mean it definitely.

762
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 3: And they they were aligned in it.

763
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 4: We did not want to do that format of kind

764
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 4: of that bait and switch like Aaron did it, did

765
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 4: Denise do it? Thing that was like, God, do we

766
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 4: have to do that? However, I understand that there needs

767
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 4: to be this like really extreme emotional swing to get

768
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 4: people gripped and engaged and the well, you know, the

769
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 4: it's like I understand it. So it's tricky like being

770
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 4: the subject of these types of shows because ultimately it is.

771
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 3: Entertainment and we understand that.

772
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 4: So trying to trying to find a balance of entertainment

773
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 4: and then be still respectful of.

774
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 3: The subjects involved is a hard thing.

775
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 4: And there were times where we disagreed and we compromised,

776
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 4: and like Erin and I at that point, We've already

777
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 4: gone through a civil suit, we've gone through court cases.

778
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 4: We had no problem pushing back.

779
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 3: They were receptive and.

780
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 4: They shifted and pivoted, and you know, every individual is different.

781
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 4: Who sits in front of them and shares their experience,

782
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 4: some people want a little bit more assistance as far

783
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 4: as like kind of a script for me. I didn't

784
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 4: want to be scripted because I had been told that

785
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 4: I wasn't believable and you're a liar, and I'm like,

786
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 4: I need to just speak about what happened, and because

787
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 4: it was too triggering to like be in a box.

788
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 4: So again it's just like this. But in the end,

789
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 4: the documentary was so well received. It's all across the world.

790
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 4: We've heard from people and people connected with the main

791
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,919
Speaker 4: themes that we wanted them to connect with, and so

792
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 4: it served its purpose and with that we were afforded

793
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 4: opportunities that we wouldn't otherwise have. It was the first

794
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 4: time after the series came out that anyone in law

795
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 4: enforcement invited us to speak to them, and so we're like, yes,

796
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 4: I mean that's you know, for almost a decade, we're

797
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 4: like we want to work with law right, Like, yes,

798
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 4: they are part of our trauma and we have like

799
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 4: a certain fear and hesitation around them. But we need

800
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 4: law enforcement. But we need good law enforcement with good

801
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 4: training who understand the trauma response.

802
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and all this work that you're doing, are you

803
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: seeing hoping you're seeing really big results? I know you're

804
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: so dedicated to making these changes, are you.

805
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah?

806
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 4: And it's been really encouraging to see members within law

807
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 4: enforcement or within the advocacy space who've been working for

808
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 4: decades trying to chase or sorry, trying to change the

809
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 4: interviewing tactics and trying to show that. And so in

810
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 4: a way, it's a really good partnership because in the end,

811
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 4: you can feed people statistics all day long and they

812
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 4: don't connect with it.

813
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 3: It doesn't penetrate. People connect with stories.

814
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 4: And so we're like, we'll use us and we share

815
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 4: our real lived experience as a helpful learning tool for us.

816
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 4: And so it's been really great and honestly, like we've

817
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 4: been so hidden. And so the exposure, like, without a doubt,

818
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 4: did I had to go back to therapy.

819
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 3: I did EMDR therapy.

820
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 5: Like I had the there was a lot of trauma

821
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 5: came up exposure because at the time, it was so

822
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 5: blended with like I'm going to be killed and then

823
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 5: I'm released and I don't even feel free, and then

824
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 5: who I am?

825
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 4: The life that I had, my name right, reputation was

826
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 4: then just destroyed. So that level of exposure is just

827
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 4: like systemically, like my nervous system was wrecked. But being

828
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 4: in person in real life and talking to people is

829
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 4: so very different than talking in front of a camera

830
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 4: and having someone watch on a screen. Right.

831
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 3: You get to see.

832
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 4: How people respond and it becomes an interaction and a dialogue,

833
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 4: and that human connection piece is so just so important.

834
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because you said, you know this, it

835
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: is the storytelling. And when I watch these true crime

836
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: documentaries and I haven't been watching them for that long

837
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: to be quite honest with you, but I think they

838
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: are stories, right, And also there is because you're watching

839
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: them mont V. There it feels like there's this you're

840
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: not in it as much, right, It's not you're not

841
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: living it. It's still on your screen, right, So there's

842
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: a little separation. But the thing that I think I

843
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: enjoy about almost all of them that I've seen is

844
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 1: finding like the hero in them. And I say that,

845
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: you know the way that watching you it be so

846
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: unbelievably heroic, you know, in the face of unbelievable you know,

847
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 1: trauma and trial and tribulation and watching how you rose

848
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: that is, that is was enjoyable for me, right. And

849
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: to also see Aaron, who again from the beginning I

850
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: was like this kid. To see him being vindicated, that is,

851
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: you know, that full circle, that is very enjoyable. It

852
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: is not enjoyable to see you know, what happened. But

853
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: I do enjoy crime documentaries, true crime documentaries where I

854
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: feel like there is movement something, you know, there's a

855
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: shift in the universe somehow because of what these people

856
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: have have gone through. And I felt that so profoundly

857
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: with American Nightmare. And so I'm and I'm also I

858
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: also feel as if I want to talk to my

859
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: kids more and they're grown, they're you know, they're going

860
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 1: to be twenty four and twenty six, but there's a

861
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: lot of information here that I want to share with them, yeah,

862
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: you know, which is such a tribute to you.

863
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

864
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 4: And I think that that's what draws people to true crime.

865
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 4: And then there's some like true crime fans or people

866
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 4: who get into it who.

867
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 3: May not be.

868
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 4: The healthiest thing for them who might have an energy

869
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 4: of like chaos. And then yeah, you know, the victim

870
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 4: blaming the conspiracy theory is the public shaming all of

871
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 4: those kinds with components of it. But a majority of

872
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 4: people who watch these who are captivated by these shows,

873
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 4: they they've gone through some I mean, let's face it,

874
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 4: we've all gone through something horrible in our life that

875
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 4: completely disrupts our world and might change the trajectory of

876
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 4: our lives. And we're still trying to have to to

877
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 4: do our roles as a mother, as a you know,

878
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 4: a friend, as a when your profession, like you still

879
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 4: have to figure out how to still live with this

880
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 4: this disruption. And so I think that that's what people see,

881
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 4: and they saw with like our case in particular, and

882
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 4: and you know, everyone can understand a little bit of

883
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 4: like being misjudged or misrepresented or people.

884
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 2: Not like not like that, not like that.

885
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 4: So like our case is extreme, for sure, but you

886
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 4: can connect with certain components. Yes, yes, And that's why

887
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 4: like just continuing to speak out and connect with people

888
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 4: I think is just so valuable. Like next month, we're

889
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 4: going to be doing a tour with a bunch of

890
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 4: other survivor advocates. It's called Crime Unfiltered is the tour,

891
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 4: and we're joining with John Ramsey, We're joining with Nicole Schmidt,

892
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 4: who's Gabby Betito's mom, Sean Ellis, who is an ex

893
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 4: hoonnaie who lost over two decades of his life for

894
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 4: a murder he did not commit. I mean, we're trying

895
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 4: to That's again another positive of the exposure of the documentary.

896
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 4: It has allowed us to connect with so many other

897
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 4: advocates out there who have a similar you know, again,

898
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 4: every case is unique, but the overarching themes that we've

899
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 4: gone through, and then trying to use this awful experience

900
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 4: to maybe create awareness, to connect with others who might

901
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 4: not have resources to fight, who might not have the

902
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 4: platform to speak and be heard, who get lost, who

903
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 4: might not have like the family or friends or support

904
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 4: to turn to. And again that like being in the

905
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 4: same space physically and connecting with people like you think

906
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 4: after COVID, and like we live in such a social

907
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 4: media like digital world and human like we need each other,

908
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 4: We need the vibrations of each other. We need to

909
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 4: laugh and cry and and feel like we're we're not

910
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 4: alone in this world. And so I'm just I'm really

911
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 4: looking forward to having that opportunity with other courageous people

912
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 4: and continuing to, i mean, try to get some legislative change.

913
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 4: And you know, there's the hard part is is like

914
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 4: the more you learn, the more you realize learn a

915
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 4: lot of work to do.

916
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 2: And so where can our.

917
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: Listeners go to meet you guys? So you said you're

918
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:56,919
Speaker 1: going on tour, So where can we go to hear

919
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 1: you in person?

920
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so the Crime on Filter Tour for right now,

921
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 4: We're going to be in the Midwest in June, so

922
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 4: I think it's June sixth and seventh in Chicago, then Milwaukee,

923
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 4: and then I think it's the eighteen nineteenth Indianapolis and Detroit.

924
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 4: And there's a website just Crime Unfiltered dot com where

925
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 4: they can learn a little bit more about each of

926
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 4: the people who are participating. You can get tickets on there.

927
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 4: But I think that's going to be a really special experience.

928
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 4: So I hope for people to come and just connect.

929
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:35,959
Speaker 2: I'll come.

930
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: I mean, if you come, come to the East Coast,

931
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: I would love to meet all of these heroes. It's

932
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: it's extraordinary and I'm sorry I said it already maybe

933
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: at nauseum, it's this is.

934
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 2: You are You are amazing.

935
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: You amaze me, and there must be makes me feel like, Okay,

936
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of bad in

937
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: this world, but there is a lot of good in

938
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: this world, you know.

939
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: And that's what is.

940
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: What I take from a lot of these documentaries is

941
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: I just look at your unbelievable strength and grace. I

942
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: just I'm sure I'm not the first person who has

943
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: said that to you, but and your parents, and your

944
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: brother and Aaron, and so it's just I'm in awe.

945
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 2: Of it all.

946
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: Do you feel like you still have unanswered questions? I

947
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: mean I could ask you questions all day, but do

948
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: you yourself feel.

949
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, there's I mean one of the things too,

950
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 4: that happened after the series came out.

951
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 3: I mean we knew that there was other victims.

952
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 4: Involved or not involved, but who other victims of the

953
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 4: assailant because he had told me in captivity, we told

954
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,240
Speaker 4: police about it, and it didn't seem like they wanted

955
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 4: to investigate, and so we were able to reopen the

956
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 4: case after the series came out with new law enforcement,

957
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 4: and sure enough, Muller confessed to several other crimes, his

958
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 4: first being in nineteen ninety three or ninety six with

959
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 4: he was sixteen years old and.

960
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 3: He attacked had a long history.

961
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 4: There was another crime that happened two weeks after our kidnapping,

962
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 4: when everyone was calling me gone girl, that the family

963
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 4: never reported it because they were still living in fear,

964
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 4: and that new group of law enforcement was able to

965
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 4: find them. But as far as like him and just

966
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 4: how many people he's attacked and hurt like, I don't

967
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 4: think we'll ever fully know, and we, you know, based

968
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 4: on everything that happened, it seemed like there was other

969
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 4: people involved in what he did, and I don't I want, I.

970
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 3: Want to believe that it's just him.

971
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 4: I know all of the victims that he's attacked want

972
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 4: to believe that, and I'm hoping that it was just him.

973
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 4: It's hard because we know how poorly the investigation was

974
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 4: handled at the beginning, and so although there's new eyes

975
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 4: on it, they can't investigate what they don't have, what

976
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 4: wasn't collected, what wasn't seen. So there's you know, I

977
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 4: think the reality is is most victims of violent crime

978
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,320
Speaker 4: are never fully going to get the answers the why

979
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 4: the how, the what, and you have to just settle

980
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 4: and accept that and be humbled in this you know, uncertainty.

981
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and that's that's hard.

982
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 4: But yes, now you somehow make peace with it at

983
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 4: the same time trying to find the answers that you

984
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 4: can find.

985
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you have to jump. I'm sorry because

986
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 1: I could. My head is sort of spinning right. Like

987
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: the last question I promise is did you ever get it?

988
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: Did Mustard ever reach out to you? There was never

989
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 1: for anybody for that matter. Was there ever an apology?

990
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 3: No, I Mustard will never apologize to us. He I

991
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 3: don't know.

992
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 4: There's one FBI agent, not the main FBI agent, but

993
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 4: one FBI agent directly involved, who we saw at a

994
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 4: court hearing, and he looked us in the eye and said,

995
00:53:58,440 --> 00:53:59,280
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry.

996
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 3: I shouldn't. We should have rescued you.

997
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 4: We should, you know, And your guys are always in

998
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 4: my mind, and that like the difference that makes of

999
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 4: like looking I think someone look you in the eye

1000
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 4: and say I'm sorry.

1001
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 3: Of course, it is like so huge, and all.

1002
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 4: The main players, the chief that they just even certain

1003
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 4: reporters still it's like they just.

1004
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 2: Can't and won't they don't want to admit to right,

1005
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:26,399
Speaker 2: and and.

1006
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 4: That's another thing. It's like, Okay, I'm gonna accept that,

1007
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 4: and you know, I'm not going to do anything to

1008
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 4: change their minds. And that's fine. But you just focus

1009
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 4: on the things that you can control or hope that

1010
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 4: you might influence.

1011
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 2: And that's yeah.

1012
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: And listen, listen. I'm sure they're not very fond of

1013
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: this documentary. So good, good, good, Sorry but huh okay,

1014
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 1: So anyway, I can't thank you enough.

1015
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. You

1016
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 2: are my hero. I wish you all it really it

1017
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 2: really was.

1018
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: I wish you all good things, all good things to Aaron,

1019
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: all good things to your beautiful girls. Thank you for

1020
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: your bravery. Thank you for joining us. Can you you

1021
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: want to move into my house and be with me?

1022
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 2: I just like I just I'm in awe of you.

1023
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: Please you have a home, please, please, please, I'm in

1024
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: awe of you. Thank you for everything, thank you. I

1025
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 1: wish you all good things.

1026
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 3: Thank you,