WEBVTT - Metzl Says AI Will Aid in Fighting Coronavirus 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.760 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:07.760 Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. Back with us is Jamie Metzel. 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:12.240 He's Senior Fellow Atlantic Council Council at the Atlantic Council, 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.240 excuse me, former director on the U. S. National Security 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:17.280 Council of the State Department, and also on the Senate 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:21.880 Foreign Relations Committee. His book I Believe, out today in paperback, 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:25.280 is Hacking Darwin, Genetic Engineering and the Future of Humanity. 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.600 He joins us on the phone in New York. Hey, Jamie, 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.360 nice to have you here once again. Is the book 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:36.519 out today on paperback? It's tomorrow tomorrow, yes, but I 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:39.040 hope people will read it. And there's like a they're 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.239 practically giving it away on the book today and tomorrow, 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:44.839 like three dollars or something. So if you're sitting at 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:47.720 home and you want to learn about the genetics revolution, 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:49.400 I hope you'll read it well. And I do feel 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.559 like it's relevant to everything that we're going on with 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:53.600 the virus. You know, you you had sent out some 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:56.360 messages over the weekend taking a look at all the 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.320 doctors who are working, you know, endlessly to deal with 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.000 so many cases um of COVID nineteen. You talked about 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.559 AI in the future that could you know, potentially help 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:09.920 us talk to us a little bit about that. Yeah, 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:13.720 So that's this crazy experience that we're having now, is 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:15.959 that all of these trends that we thought would play 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.920 out over ten twenty years are happening now because we're 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.240 in this crisis. So you and I Carol would both said, Jason, 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.559 we're all here in New York and we the number 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.800 of cases is overwhelming our health care system, and not 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:35.760 only that, our health care providers are in themselves being infective. 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.600 So we're we're relatively quickly going to come to a 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.319 point we have more patients and not enough doctors, and 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.520 so we're going to have to shift so that at 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.480 least the first point of care is going to have 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.560 to be artificial intelligence, so that if you have a 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.280 symptom um, you you go online and you have an 0:01:55.360 --> 0:02:00.320 artificial intelligence agent basically a program, and everybody will have 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.160 a home kit of a thermometer and a scale and 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:05.880 a blood pressure cuff and a few other simple things, 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.360 and you'll put in your symptoms, and you'll put in 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:12.720 your readings from home, and then you'll get a differential diagnosis, 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.120 and if it's just um, here are some things, you 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.160 should just stay home and have chicken soup and liquids 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.160 and rest a. I will tell you that if you 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.360 need to be escalated, then the AI will refer you 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.480 to a telemedicine general consult and then perhaps to a 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:31.160 specialist telemedicine consult and only then to a human. So 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.600 this whole thing now, where you feel a symptom and 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.480 go to the doctor, it's great for normal times, but 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.360 it's probably not going to be possible in crisis times 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.919 like this. And so I guess one of the questions, Jamie, 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:49.920 is what of crisis time will become normal in normal time. 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.200 It's such a great question. And people, a lot of 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.400 people have this feeling that what we're experiencing now is 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.760 kind of like a snowstorm, that big storm. We sit home, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.360 the plows come out, plows gets rid of the snow, 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.800 the sun comes out, everything melts, and then we just 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.799 go back to our lives. Old lives that we've had 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.880 are never coming back in so many big ways. And 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:19.959 so this shift to virtualization that we're all experiencing, it's 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.200 going to happen, it's going to going to continue not 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:24.919 just in health care, but in everything else in our 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.679 companies are taking a beating. They're not going to bring 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:33.160 all these employees back in expensive real estate across the economy. 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.720 That we're going to see big, big changes that are 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.760 going to change the way we live and the way 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:44.040 we work, and certainly the way we experience healthcare. Yeah, 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.400 I mean we you know, we've had so many conversations 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.920 about what will be lasting. It's interesting because here we 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.960 have gone through this phase. UM. You know, we certainly 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:53.560 have it in our office as you know, these open 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.680 environments where all teams can walk into one another, you know, 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.800 conversations across different parts of the business, UM, and that 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.680 has seen as an advantage. But we are finding to 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.200 some extent that we can do a fair amount of 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:11.040 that there our virtual world right absolutely. And on top 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.760 of that, we're not going to go back toward anything 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:17.520 that even steals normal until there's a vaccine. And I 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.760 know we're hearing this, uh this twelve months as a 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.920 as a possibility, but that's the ultimate dream scenario. That's 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:29.719 everything going right with an order of magnitude better performance 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.600 than we've ever had in the history of healthcare. UM. 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.920 So it could be that it's eighteen months, two years 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:41.240 until we're able to be in those same kinds of 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.800 physical environments. I was doing a Denver radio interview the 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.159 other day and I told them that I didn't think 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.360 it was very likely there was going to be a 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.600 full stadium NFL football game anywhere in this country until 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:58.440 two and these guys they were planning on going going 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:02.480 to the opening day later this year, and it's it's 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.440 it's really, this is really big change. It's so hard 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.600 to fathom where we're heading. So, Jamie, when you hear 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.240 the president or other officials or even business folks start 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.320 to talk about reopening the economy, you say, what not 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:20.440 even close? Well, it depends on what we mean. We 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.039 can't have we can't be totally hunkered down like we 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.479 are now forever um. But we're not going to be 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.520 able to just say everybody goes back, because again, until 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.120 there's a vaccine, if we all go back to normal, um, 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.560 we're going to have this same kind of of explosion. 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.800 What we're talking about is with is this exponential growth, 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.119 So do I how will it work? Maybe some people 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:47.320 will go back, Maybe we'll have some groups of kids 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:51.679 who will go in small numbers to schools maybe Monday, Wednesday, 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.800 Friday group and a Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday group, and and 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.280 businesses will have to work that way. And somebody in 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.200 the government, very tragically is going to be doing a 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:06.640 calculation about how much we opened the economy versus the 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.600 number of people who at least until there's better treatments 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.080 and a and a vaccine are going to die. And 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.800 that's I mean that that's the I'm sure you've had 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.839 cast On Stein on your UM, on your your program, 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.640 but that kind of calculation. The government does it all 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:23.400 the time when they say, well, what should the speed 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.640 limit be? They increase the speed limit, people go faster, 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.479 but you'll have more fatalities. And sadly this calculus that 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.559 we're going to tragically have to do. You know, Jamie, 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.599 I wanted to pose a question to you that that 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.360 came to me earlier when we were talking to our 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.120 colleague Andy Brown, who runs our New Economy UH program, 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.520 a New Economy forum that happened last year over in 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.279 Beijing or just outside of Beijing. You are a China expert. 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.359 I mean, you're an expert on many things, as we 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.600 have laid out UM, but you know, so much about 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.040 China and specifically the relationship between the US and China, 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:03.360 and I do think this has thrown that thrown that relationship, 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.719 which already was, to say the least complicated over the 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.800 trade war, into a whole other category. What do you 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.160 make of it right now, especially at a time when 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.320 man and I know I'm being a little pollyannish about this, 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.880 but if those two superpowers could get together, I do 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:27.400 feel like we could make some progress on this, right Yeah. 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:31.640 So well, the good news is on the scientific level, 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:37.040 our scientists are actually working pretty closely together, and that's positive. 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.120 I was on a big, a big global call over 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:44.840 the weekend where we had scientists from China, scientists from Italy, 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.000 and scientists from the United States and elsewhere, so that 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.840 that is happening. But in terms of big power politics, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.480 I mean, this is really really dangerous. I mean, first, 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.480 there was all the name calling, and I think that 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:02.600 it's just undoubtedly true that China's massive failure at the 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:07.080 beginning of this helped exacerbate this, uh, this problem in 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.680 a very very big way, and we're all suffering as 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.520 a result. Um, But the total failure of the Trump 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.480 administration to prepare even when we had the warning signs 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.720 out of China in January and US Intelligence was raising 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.840 the alarm that the reason why so many people are 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.040 dying here in New York and elsewhere is not just 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.920 because of China, it's also because of the total failure 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.720 of the U S response. That's the starting point. But 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.280 we have to work together to get there from here. 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:38.760 I was just hearing and when I was waiting to 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:43.000 come on about Tim Cook having supplies made, uh and 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.400 Apple having supplies made that are going to save people's 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.360 lives here. Where are those supplies being made? You didn't 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:50.920 mention in your report, but I would bet anything They're 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.199 not being made here in the United States, are being 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.920 made in China that has figured out a better way 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.880 than we have to address this problem. And if we 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:02.360 don't learn from China, in spite of all of the 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.320 problems that we have in our relationship, we're going to 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.920 harm ourselves. So I totally agree with you, Jason. We 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.600 have to find a way to collaborate well. And I 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.720 think you know China in particular, um Jamie, they have 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.640 had to deal with other health issues before, right. I mean, 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.920 you know this was a society, a country that has 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:22.640 dealt with similar things, whether we go back to stars 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.360 and some other you know, health situations, even just dealing 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.960 with their air, you know. So I feel like they 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.280 were certainly well ahead of us and kind of understanding, 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.160 you know, how this can disrupt kind of your life 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.320 as you know it. That's exactly right. And now that 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:42.240 was one of the problems. Um. You mentioned my background 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.200 in China and Asia. So when this thing first started 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.079 happening and I was seeing the alarm bills coming out 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:50.880 of China, I talked to my brother, who's a doctor 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.360 here in New York, and I said, look, this is 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.800 really a big deal. Found the alarm and he went 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.839 and spoke to to the one of the doctors, that 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.040 infectious disease guy in his hospital, and that guy said, 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.000 oh no, this is all overblown. This is just the flu. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.960 And I think the problem was in China and in 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.439 across Asia, when they had this experience, they thought stars, 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.199 and they mobilized right away because they knew how scary stars. 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.760 We were spared a lot of the pain of stars, 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:25.520 so we thought flu. And because flu was our paradigm, 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.280 we weren't. We weren't ready for it on and that's 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.760 I think we're still suffering as a result of it. 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:34.480 That's such an interesting question or that's such an interesting observation, 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.600 And you're exactly right. As I think about the way, 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.439 especially very smart people in business and economics and finance 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.679 especially reacted to me about it, You're exactly right, that's 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:46.920 the frame that that they've viewed it. So you know, 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.840 you mentioned the scientific collaboration, and given that you are 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:52.520 in touch with a lot of those folks, I do wonder. 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.800 I have felt a certain sense of optimism, and I 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:57.720 think Carol has two as we've talked to a lot 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.040 of medical experts who were essentially saying a lot of 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.240 the barriers that have traditionally been there in terms of 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.480 collaboration are down, at least for the moment. That's another 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.600 area where I wonder if you're seeing the potential for 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:16.400 a more secular rather than cyclical change in attacking big 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:20.960 problems as a group rather than individual lyng Well, it's interesting, 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.360 I answered, or maybe on a on a few different levels, 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:28.000 certainly on a point to point, person to person level, um, 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.840 including among experts there. It's it's kind of incredible what 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:33.760 we're seeing a lot of us. I'm sure you guys 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.280 as well, and most of your listeners are spending all 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.920 of our days on these zoom calls. And there are 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.720 new types of communities that are that are forming and 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.679 doing really, really great things. But on a national level, 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:49.440 I also think that things could get worse between the 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.880 United States and China, because if you're a country like China, 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.640 country like Russia, and you probably haven't been that happy 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.959 that the United States has been defining in many ways 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.960 the global world order for seventy five years. This is 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.560 your your big chance to change that. And maybe you 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.439 change that through providing aid to different countries in the world, 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.800 or maybe, like Russia, you realize, well, you interfered in 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.400 the election last time, what if you if you do 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.679 it again, can you just put you know, shoot your 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.920 arrow into the Achilles heel of the United States. And 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.120 then on a global level, um, what we're seeing is 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.280 there's just a fundamental mismatch between the nature of the 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:32.840 global nature of the big problems we face, whether it's pandemics, 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:37.319 climate change, ecosystem destruction, or weapons of mass destruction, and 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:41.560 how we're organized to address them, which is nationally or 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.520 with international organizations created by states. And so we're going 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.120 to have to just actually jumped off a zoom call 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:52.280 to take this interview talking about can we create a 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.800 third force in global politics, like a third leg of 0:12:55.840 --> 0:13:01.320 the stool, which is the democratically expressed political will of humans? 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:03.400 Because if you ask any humans should we have at 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.200 w h O world health organization that can solve problems 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.120 like this, or an entity that can save our oceans, 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.280 everybody would say yes, So ask why don't we have? 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.679 So I've got to ask. It's what we've been calling, Jamie, 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.080 are big thanker questions. So, how will the coronavirus pandemic 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.360 change the world? And you know, more specifically, when we 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.280 when we get out of this, what's the most important, 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.600 in your view, underappreciated way that the world will be different. 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.480 So I'm thinking a lot about this. I'm actually just 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.120 starting to write a book about it. And I think 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.360 it's fundamental. I mean, one of the reasons why I 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.720 say that this year is more like one than it 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.120 is like two thousand and one. And I think this 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:46.040 is going to be the year when historians future storms 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:47.880 will look back at this year and say, this was 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:53.680 the year that the post war American led international order collapsed. 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:58.160 And so there's a race now to see whether there 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:02.319 can be some new kind of order then fills this gap, 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:05.800 or it will be kind of a disorder, but will 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.640 which will look like the world used to look before 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.840 the reorganization happened after the Second World War, which was 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:17.960 a balance of power between these nationalist countries where everybody 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.640 was looking out for their own interest and nobody was 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.520 looking out for the common good. And that's that's why 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.160 this conversation about values is more important than ever before 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.920 now because I don't want to go back to that 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.520 balance of power world where everybody has a little hat 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.040 that says in certain name of your country first, because 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.560 that's what our great grandparents had and we know where 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.840 it ends. But if we want to have something different now, 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:45.800 we have to build it. And that's the challenge of 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.080 this moment. Well. And it's so interesting, Jamie, did to 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:51.000 hear you say that, because you know, we were talking 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:55.120 earlier with another conversation had earlier was with the woman 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.240 who leads all of our international government coverage, and she 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.640 was telling us about Boris Johnson and the state of 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:01.600 his else but you know, we got into a broader 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.840 conversation about how Europe is tackling this, and you are seeing, 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.120 you know, different leaders sort of step to the four 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.480 in the same way that we're seeing different governors sort 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:11.080 of come to the four here in the United States, 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:15.040 different world leaders. Really you're kind of seeing what they're 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:19.320 made of. Right, everybody is seeing what everybody in our 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.400 lives is made of. Whether it's our family members, are friends, 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:26.000 are government leaders, and there are people who are playing 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.920 to our fears, and there are people who are saying, 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.560 at this moment of crisis, this is when we can 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:35.640 be our best and we humans, we are social creatures, 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.720 and we can inspire each other to be better. And 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.920 that's what I always say is that if you are 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:46.720 and any listeners, if you're just sitting home binge watching Netflix, 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.880 your country and your community and your world need you. 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:55.080 This is the moment where we have to begin building 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:59.240 on from the foundations that exist something that's better. This 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.840 is an all anzon deck moment for everyone. So how 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.200 do we do that, Jamie? Because we have and we've 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.400 done it with you, We've done it with others, um 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.000 We've done it a lot today about the inequalities that 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.600 are out there, whether it's in healthcare and and the 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.240 virus is really exposing. We knew the gaps were out there, 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.240 but the virus is really exposing, whether it's a hotel worker, 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:24.960 restaurant worker, service worker. You know, we're seeing really these inequalities, UM, 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.520 laid bare to us. So what do we do? What 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.200 do what do we need to do that we don't 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.600 come out of this and kind of forget all of 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.560 this that happened and don't and don't reduce those gaps. Well, 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.200 there there are two things that we need to do 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:40.240 in my view. One is we need to organize politically 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.600 around our values. I had a long conversation earlier today 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.640 with with Andrew Yang, who actually read that the article 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.760 UM that you mentioned Carol and game Ring. We talked 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.280 for about an hour about about these things. So the 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:57.040 kinds of the processes that he had he and Obama 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:01.800 earlier and others had pioneered of how do we create inclusive, 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:07.560 participatory democratic structures that can push for this kind of change, 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.120 Even Bernie Sanders. I'm not a fan of Bernie Sanders, 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.320 but they've built this kind of movement based politics and 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.560 it's going to look different, UM. And that's and so 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.160 we have to have that. Joe Biden in his basement 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:22.960 isn't going to be able to have this kind of 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.680 movement alone. And this should be an inclusive movement because 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.640 I think people in you know, lots of people who 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:34.040 were against inclusion in our health care system are not 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.480 gonna want gonna going to want to have no health 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.159 care or have overwhelmed health care systems. We at times 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.960 like this, we know that governance is is really important. 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.359 And then globally we have to find ways of solving 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.879 our common problems, and we have the networks to do it. 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.760 So I'm I'm trying. I'm launching, with many other people, 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:58.439 a global interdependence movement. People can find out about that 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.440 on my website Janis dot com. But we have people 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.119 in twenty three countries now working together to say, well, 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.960 all right, enough of this bologna. How can we come together. 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:13.040 How can we put pressure on our governments to solve 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.840 these problems, because when the problems aren't solved, we all suffer. 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:18.240 And that's what we're seeing. Do you think it will 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.800 show up in the elections in November? You know, I 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.719 don't for sure. Our elections are going to be chaotic 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.679 and highly contentious. Um because where people aren't going to 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:32.679 be able to vote in the same ways. They'll have 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.399 to be some kinds of accommodations, electronic voting or mail. 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:41.080 Um are bad guy attackers are going to recognize that vulnerability, 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.600 and they're going to come at us hard. Um. The 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:49.399 Russians um interfered in the last elections and and didn't 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.360 have any consequence, so they're not going to to say, oh, 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.160 I guess we shouldn't do it again. Um. So there 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:58.479 is a lot of pain, and as much pain as 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:03.280 we've been through already, there's more pain ahead and we 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:05.919 have to not only be ready for it, but we 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.200 have to ask ourselves who we are and really stay 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.600 true to that vision because we're all going to be 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:18.080 tested more than in many cases ever before, over the 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:23.119 over these coming months and years. And so what's I 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.399 don't know, what's your big lesson in the in the moment. 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.479 What's the one message that you really want people to 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.159 understand about this, Uh, Jamie? And and you know this 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.000 is a free plug for your book, I mean your 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.879 paperbacks out tomorrow, right, You're sweet to say that this 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.360 is a plug from my book, and I certainly well 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:44.320 I pivot away from there to say it's not. What 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:46.200 I'm going to say is you should read the book 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.720 Hacking Darwin Enetic Engineering in the Future of You Manity. 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.160 But I'm not going to say that available on paperback tomorrow, 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.000 pick it up. No, no, but I'm not going to 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.679 say that, because what I'm going to say is, um, 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.679 when you're listeners are ninety years old, they're gonna wheel 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:03.320 you out onto the stage in your grandkids are great 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.359 grandkids school and they can say, oh, my god, you 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:11.360 were there in the great crisis, the great coronavirus crisis 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:15.960 of tell me about it, and you'll tell them a story. 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.320 And that story should be the story of how, at 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:24.119 this moment you found your best, you did your best. 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.400 And if you want that to be the story, then 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.960 then live that story. Now. You know, it's funny that 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.359 you say that, because there's a friend of mine who's 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.320 got a friend I think from Brown University, and I 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.320 know you went there also. But what's interesting is wrote 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.160 wrote a poem or wrote just some writings about what if? 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:46.399 What if the coronavirus, you know, is kind of teaching 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.800 us to slow down and spend more time with family 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:52.560 and rethink. And it's it's really I do wonder about 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:53.960 that too, that this time that we're all going to 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:58.119 look back and it created some really major and necessary 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:00.639 changes in our world and our personal as well as 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:04.560 our professional. Yeah, well, this is the life that we have. 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:07.320 We could imagine other lives, but this is the one 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.200 we have, and so it's up to us to find 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:12.760 the greatest meaning and it will be a different mix 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.879 of things. And you're exactly right, Carol, all these people today, 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:18.919 I never had time enough time with my kids. I 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:23.479 never had enough time to to learn the history of 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:28.960 surrealism whatever somebody's saying, is now is that time? And yes, 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.680 we're we're all mourning things that we may have blocked, 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:36.520 but there's there are new there are new things possible here, 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:39.160 and we need to explore and embrace those as well. 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:41.159 It's so true. And you know, Carol and I've been 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.520 we're talking. We were talking about this this morning because 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:45.840 I was talking to her because as I was on 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:49.000 a walk with my two year old daughter, who is 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.080 certainly in our house, the big winner in this crisis, 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:55.159 because you know, and and I said to her, I 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:57.639 said to Carol, not probably said it to my daughter too, 0:21:57.760 --> 0:21:59.800 Like these are hours of the day that I would 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.680 not normally spend with her, and it's uh, it's very 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:04.800 special and I will look back on that for sure. 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.560 Amid all of this, uh is something that was that 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.639 was very meaningful. So um, always great perspective from you, 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:14.239 Jamie Matzel, so thoughtful. We really appreciate senior fellow at 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:18.200