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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It started this amazing guessing game where everyone pointed the

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Speaker 2: finger at everybody else. Well, I would call people and

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Speaker 2: they were brad on their neighbors.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. We are now digging into

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Speaker 1: a real Texas story. We're talking about a brazen jewel

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Speaker 1: thief in the nineteen sixties who burgled some of the

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Speaker 1: wealthiest homes in Dallas. But he was an odd thief.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes he just took one diamond ear ring, probably because

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Speaker 1: he knew it would ruin the set. He would put

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Speaker 1: down a towel so he didn't sully an expensive chair

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Speaker 1: by stepping on it. Who was this guy? Author Reina

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Speaker 1: Peterson unfurls the story in her book The King of Diamonds,

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Speaker 1: The Search for the Elusive Texas Jewel Thief. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: start from the beginning. Are we in the fifties when

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Speaker 1: we have the first break in happen? And tell me

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Speaker 1: about the circumstances and as much detail as you can,

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Speaker 1: because this story is wild.

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Speaker 2: It is wild, you know. The further I got Angelo,

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Speaker 2: I thought, oh, this is so crazy. Nobody's going to

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Speaker 2: have believe this. People assumed that it went on through

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Speaker 2: the sixties, but it probably started in the midds fifties.

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Speaker 2: So we're talking about fifty four or nineteen fifty five

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Speaker 2: to nineteen seventy, which was very much a gilded era

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Speaker 2: in Dallas because the state had gone through There was

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Speaker 2: early oil after the turn of this century, and then

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Speaker 2: there was the depression and a long drought. So this

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Speaker 2: was this resurgence of oil money and oil riches. So

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Speaker 2: the state in Dallas in particular, was full of gatsbies.

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Speaker 2: It was full of people who suddenly had money and

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Speaker 2: they wanted status, so they wanted to dress like it

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Speaker 2: and live like it, and have jewels that reflected how

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Speaker 2: much money they had. So it was this perfect storm

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Speaker 2: that attracted opportunists of all times, like a jewel thief.

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Speaker 2: So the burglary that really started the King of Diamonds story.

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Speaker 2: The burglaries really had been going on for several years

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Speaker 2: before them, was in nineteen fifty nine, January twenty fourth,

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Speaker 2: to be precise. It was a very cold January. As

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Speaker 2: you probably know, North Texas can getry cole. It is

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Speaker 2: actually a prairie. There's not much to break the wind,

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Speaker 2: and blue Norther had brown in. It was cold chilli night,

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Speaker 2: and a couple named Josephe mcgroth and her husband Bruno

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Speaker 2: were going to the Jewel Ball in Fort Worth. Well.

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Speaker 2: The Jewel Ball was what it sounds like. It was

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Speaker 2: a big fancy ball dedicated to showing off and celebrating jewels.

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Speaker 2: So to go, you were your very best jewels, and

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Speaker 2: you went to this ball and jewelers, prominent jewelers like

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Speaker 2: Harry Winston, Neiman Marcus brought jewels to show off and

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Speaker 2: you could try them on and sit there under a

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Speaker 2: spotlight and people would come and take pictures of you

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Speaker 2: trying on these big sparkers, so to prepare for the

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Speaker 2: jewel ball that night, Josephine Groff, Bruno Groff put on

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Speaker 2: his tucks and Josephine Groff put on her best jewels,

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Speaker 2: put on her diamond earrings, diamond necklace, diamond booch, diamond bracelet,

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Speaker 2: and a diamond ring that was twenty point four carrots.

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Speaker 2: People said it was a diamond as big as the Alamo,

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Speaker 2: and it was. They went in their rolls voice pulled

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Speaker 2: out of the driveway, drove to Fort Worth. They took

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Speaker 2: another couple with them, mister and missus Alger Meadows. He

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Speaker 2: was also a big oil and Josephine was an oil widow.

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Speaker 2: She'd been married to a man named Jack Herbert who

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Speaker 2: found oil when they lived in fort Worth. Not spindle

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Speaker 2: Top or Discovery big, but big enough to live in

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Speaker 2: a big mansion in fort Worth. But they ended up

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Speaker 2: moving to Dallas and built this fabulous house that was

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Speaker 2: designed by Edward Durell Stone, who also designed the Museum

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Speaker 2: of Modern Art and the Kennedy Library. So you can

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Speaker 2: envision it was a big, stately modern house full of

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Speaker 2: art treasures, and at night it lit up like a

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Speaker 2: golden lantern. It was just a spectacular house. It was

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Speaker 2: nothing else like it in Dallas at the time. So

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Speaker 2: they get in their rolls voice and they head to

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Speaker 2: Fort Worth with Alger Medals and his wife. And of course,

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Speaker 2: at that time, and everybody mentioned this, there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of drinking. There's a lot of drinking now, but

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Speaker 2: back then there was a lot of drinking. Because they

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Speaker 2: had been through the depression, that had been through a

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Speaker 2: seven year draft. They were ready to celebrate. So there

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Speaker 2: was the party, the after party, the after after party.

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Speaker 2: So they get home at three o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 2: Josephine Groff comes in. She's tired. She puts her jewels

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Speaker 2: in the dresser instead of a safe or somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: She's tired. She's going to bed at three o'clock in

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Speaker 2: the morning. She wakes up late the next morning and

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Speaker 2: goes into her dressing room and looks and the jewels

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Speaker 2: that she had taken off a few hours before were

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Speaker 2: all gone. Wow, the ear rings, the necklace, the brooch,

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Speaker 2: the bracelet, and the diamond as big as the Alamo.

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Speaker 2: So they called the police. And when the police came,

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Speaker 2: they realized why the way that this was something very special.

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Speaker 2: It was the biggest jewel theft in Dallas history, worth

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Speaker 2: well over a million dollars today and picture this is

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Speaker 2: after the depression in a rural state. This was a

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Speaker 2: very big deal and it made headlines all over the country.

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Speaker 2: This burglary was so good. He was almost like a

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Speaker 2: well trained saboteur. He climbed a ten foot wall, ran

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Speaker 2: along the top of the wall, and leaped they think

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Speaker 2: as far as fifteen feet to a balcony that went

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Speaker 2: around the second floor of the golf house, pried open

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Speaker 2: the window and came in. Josephine Groff told police that

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Speaker 2: she had the oddest feeling that he had been in

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Speaker 2: her closet at the time, which is possible. He did

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Speaker 2: that from down to time. And if you can think,

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Speaker 2: how unnerving would that be.

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Speaker 1: I don't even want to hear anything about. That's my

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Speaker 1: worst nightmare, somebody coming through the attic. Yeah, being and

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Speaker 1: the people do that, It's oh, that's so scary.

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Speaker 2: He did. He was absolutely fearless, nerves of steel, didn't

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Speaker 2: leave any trace in the house, mister warm gloves, no fingerprints,

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Speaker 2: very hard to track him down, and then disappeared. Well

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Speaker 2: some time went by, and then he struck again. Oddly enough,

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Speaker 2: it was the home of Josephine Groff's daughter who also

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Speaker 2: lived in this same wealthy area called Preston Hollow, and

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Speaker 2: while they wed a football game, he came in. It's

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Speaker 2: the middle of the afternoon. He came in through a

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Speaker 2: sliding door. There was a nanny there, a cook, and

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Speaker 2: three children. None of them heard them. But when she

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Speaker 2: got back from the game and realized that a jewel

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Speaker 2: thief had been in her home with their children a

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Speaker 2: few feet away, she was absolutely terrified. The thought of

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Speaker 2: your child being vulnerable, being in your bed in your

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Speaker 2: nightgown is bad enough, but having your children there was really,

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Speaker 2: I think rattling for a lot of people. So the

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Speaker 2: police pulled out all the stops. Something weird was going on.

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Speaker 2: They didn't know what it was, but they knew it

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Speaker 2: was weird. So they checked all their sources in the pen,

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Speaker 2: in the jail, they checked the hotels, They checked all

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Speaker 2: their street sources and squeezed them and couldn't find a clue.

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Speaker 2: And the burglaries continued. There was one house where he

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Speaker 2: went in and again, if you can picture yourself, picture

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Speaker 2: this happened to yourself. A couple went to a dinner

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Speaker 2: at a friend's house in a penthouse and got home

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Speaker 2: around midnight, and she was walking up the stairs. She

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Speaker 2: thought she heard a sound click, so she said to

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Speaker 2: her husband, honey, have you locked up? And he said no,

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Speaker 2: I am right now, and she said good, so she

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Speaker 2: walked on up into her bedroom. She thought the sound

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Speaker 2: had come from a closet, so she looked in her closet,

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Speaker 2: didn't see anything shut the door, bottom dressed, went to bed,

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Speaker 2: slept fitfully, woke up the next morning and the closet

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Speaker 2: door was open. She looked in her dressing room and

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Speaker 2: they were going to Paris the next morning. She had

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Speaker 2: packed what she called her necessary bag, a red toat

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Speaker 2: that she put her jewels in, any pharmaceutical special and

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Speaker 2: makeup that she needed in the necessary bag. Her necessary

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Speaker 2: bag was gone, and quite a few of her very

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Speaker 2: best jewels. The thief had come in the back, moved

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Speaker 2: a launcher up, climbed a very high window that was

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Speaker 2: only about two feet wide, dropped down to a toilet,

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Speaker 2: went into their house, walked in, and was in the

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Speaker 2: closet when they came back. One of the odd things

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Speaker 2: was that they had these little yappy dogs, two or

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Speaker 2: three little yappy dogs, you know the kind I mean,

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Speaker 2: he didn't bark, and that happened time and time again.

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Speaker 2: The guy would walk by a bed where people were

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Speaker 2: in there and their dog would be sleeping on the

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Speaker 2: bed and not bar So it was a mystery on

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Speaker 2: top of a mystery on top of the mystery.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so the first couple was Josephine and Bruno, and

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Speaker 1: then her daughter from her deceased husband, so that was

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Speaker 1: the next person. Tell me what we think of this

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Speaker 1: guy based on the first three jobs that he's done.

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Speaker 1: Clearly physically fit, but clearly targeting. Are they all in

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Speaker 1: the same type of neighborhood or you mentioned he must

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Speaker 1: know these people or something about them. Is that What

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Speaker 1: do we know at this point?

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Speaker 2: No, you're absolutely right, that's a good question. Another thing

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Speaker 2: that made this so unique was that primarily hit these

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Speaker 2: three areas. There are two wealthy suburbs next to Dallas,

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Speaker 2: Hohland Park and University Park. Most of the many of

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Speaker 2: the burglaries were in Hoghland Park, which is an area

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Speaker 2: that's only two square miles, so it's a very contained area,

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Speaker 2: and in Preston Hollow, which is actually five, which is

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Speaker 2: part of Dallas, but it seems like a suburb. It's

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Speaker 2: five to six square miles, But most of the burglaries

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Speaker 2: in Preston Hollow took place in a one square mile area,

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Speaker 2: so what's called Old Preston Hollow what I would call

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Speaker 2: Deep Wealth. Still, you know, it's such a contained area,

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Speaker 2: but they still couldn't couldn't find The police would patrol

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Speaker 2: at night and drive up and down. Sometimes they drove

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Speaker 2: as much as one hundred miles, So you can imagine

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Speaker 2: in a small area like that, they were driving up

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Speaker 2: and down the streets looking for this jewel thief and

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Speaker 2: they couldn't catch him. And so over time police realized

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Speaker 2: that it had to be somebody from that area because

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Speaker 2: he knew how to navigate the streets, he knew how

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Speaker 2: to find houses, and very distinctively, he went down creeks.

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Speaker 2: Often these are scenic areas with lots of trees and creeks,

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Speaker 2: so he wouldn't be walking down the street and be

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Speaker 2: spotted or car be spotted. He would come down creeks.

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Speaker 2: Hence he must have worn these pull on galoshes which

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Speaker 2: left the ripplesoul tracks that were very distinctive outside these

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Speaker 2: houses because he would come up the creeks, and often

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Speaker 2: it was in the fall to February, so the weather

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Speaker 2: was a great so sometimes it would be wet. All

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Speaker 2: the more reason. But he was very fastidious. He would

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Speaker 2: slip off the galoshes and go in either in his

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Speaker 2: bare feet or in soft sole shoes to do his

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Speaker 2: work and then pick him up. There were only a

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Speaker 2: few occasions where he forgot to take off his galoshes

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Speaker 2: and left the ripple Boffel prints they called him in

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Speaker 2: the house. But it was a brilliant technique to go

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Speaker 2: down the creeks because people didn't see him coming.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the connection is between Josephine and

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Speaker 1: Bruno and Josephine's daughter. Do you think he must have

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Speaker 1: known both of them well enough to know where the

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Speaker 1: daughter lives, and you know, that just seems like such

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Speaker 1: an odd thing for him to do.

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Speaker 2: They'd gotten a lot of publicity because the golf house

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Speaker 2: was so distinctive among the architectural features. Again, we had

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Speaker 2: come out of this the state had come out of

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Speaker 2: this seven year drought and water was very scarce. You know,

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Speaker 2: people in some areas were reduced to boiling tumble weeds,

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Speaker 2: to get by. They had an indoor swimming pool, and

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Speaker 2: this was a time when swimming pools in private homes

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Speaker 2: were still relatively rare. But they had an indoor swimming

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Speaker 2: pool that was in a room with valuable artworks around

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Speaker 2: in the antique furniture, and it was calibrated so that

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Speaker 2: they could lower the water level when people got in,

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Speaker 2: so nothing would splash on the fine furnishings. This had

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Speaker 2: been written up in the most celebrated part of the

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Speaker 2: house was that they had a dining room with a

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Speaker 2: dining table that appeared to float on a slab of marble,

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Speaker 2: So if you could picture a slab of marble with

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Speaker 2: water all around it, And so people would come to

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Speaker 2: dinner and they're sitting at a dining table surrounded by water,

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Speaker 2: and more than one night people would literally fall in

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Speaker 2: the drink, and it became kind of a famous thing

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Speaker 2: to do to fall in the drink at the golf house.

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Speaker 2: One oil man, Clint Murkison, fell in the water one

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Speaker 2: night and the wife of another old man jumped in

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Speaker 2: just to keep company. A banker fell in and so

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Speaker 2: they had one of the waiters, one of the staff,

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Speaker 2: give him his tuxedo, so he could finish the meal

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Speaker 2: in style. So this had been written up so people

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Speaker 2: knew that the Goths were very tasteful, that she had

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Speaker 2: beautiful clothes, beautiful jewelry, beautiful house, and her daughter did too,

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Speaker 2: and she had made her debut. That was another key

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Speaker 2: clue in this that this was somebody who probably went

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Speaker 2: to deb parties, wow escorted debs, perhaps because he had

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Speaker 2: been in the homes and knew his way around. He

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Speaker 2: almost always contrived a way to get out easily where

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Speaker 2: he wouldn't be caught, so he had been able to reconnoiter.

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Speaker 2: I guess you could say these houses.

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Speaker 1: Now, listen, you're going to have to explain to my audience,

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Speaker 1: some of them, what a deb is debutante? Right? Can

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Speaker 1: you explain what escorting a debutante would be? And so

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Speaker 1: she had her coming out party essentially, is that right?

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Speaker 2: That's right. She had been a debb in I think

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Speaker 2: Fort Worth, then in New York, very prestige just to

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Speaker 2: be a debutante in New York. And it's basically a

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Speaker 2: coming out party for a young woman to show them

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Speaker 2: off as prospective bribes, to show off the wealth and

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Speaker 2: power again of the parents. It was this conspicuous display

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Speaker 2: that was all part of this area. It was such

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Speaker 2: a glamorous time because Texas was really a rural, agricultural

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Speaker 2: state at that time, and Dallas was like Emerald City.

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Speaker 1: So what were people saying at this point? Number one?

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Speaker 1: How many burglaries had to happen before they realized this

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Speaker 1: was somebody targeting exclusively wealthy people? And then number two,

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Speaker 1: who did everybody think this was? Was there one particular

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Speaker 1: person in that community that they thought, Oh, this is

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Speaker 1: a near do well nephew of a really wealthy person.

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Speaker 1: It must be him. Is that what you mean by targeting?

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Speaker 2: Yes to all of these Everybody suspected everybody else. And

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Speaker 2: that's what made it difficult to look at this because

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Speaker 2: there was not just one suspect. I mean, there was

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Speaker 2: not just one burglary. There were dozens and dozens to

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Speaker 2: look at. And there was not just one or two suspects.

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Speaker 2: There were dozens and dozens. They suspected the Valets people

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Speaker 2: suggest suspected an architect that they thought was socially ambitious.

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Speaker 2: They suggested several hairdressers because who knew better, you know,

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Speaker 2: when a woman was going out and what she was

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Speaker 2: wearing caterers.

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Speaker 1: The help was the big one first, right, and then

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Speaker 1: would they spread out and looked at each other.

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Speaker 2: Yes, totally. And they actually gave light detector tests to

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Speaker 2: a lot of the servants and none of them panned out.

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Speaker 2: You know, back then they had a lot of faith

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Speaker 2: in the lie detector technology. Today not so much so,

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Speaker 2: but it was the only technology that they had. People

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Speaker 2: suspected social columnists, people who wrote about society and knew

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Speaker 2: where people were going. They suspected people in the social

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Speaker 2: set who gambled heavily, and a lot of people didn't

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Speaker 2: because they had so much money they could afford to

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Speaker 2: gamble heavily. So multiple people told me that they would

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Speaker 2: go to gala events and everyone would be saying, it's

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Speaker 2: him over there or over there. Most of the sightings

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Speaker 2: they were brief were of a man, but people suspected

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Speaker 2: several women because they thought that they could have an

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Speaker 2: accomplice who was a nimble man who could have done it.

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Speaker 2: So you can't rule out a woman necessarily. One of

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Speaker 2: the reasons they thought it was somebody in the social

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Speaker 2: set too, is that they couldn't figure out for a

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Speaker 2: while why most of the burglaries took place from October

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Speaker 2: to February, and that's because that was the social season,

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Speaker 2: and he knew that that's when people would have their

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Speaker 2: jewels out of the safe and ready, because sometimes there

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Speaker 2: were as many as one hundred and thirty five Dolla

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Speaker 2: events a season Dallas. Yeah, you wouldn't want to be

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Speaker 2: running back and forth to the bank to get your

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Speaker 2: jewels out of the safe for that, and so the police.

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Speaker 2: There was just a lot of inadvertent humor in this

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Speaker 2: that the police decided they'd better go to some of

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Speaker 2: these debutante events. The problem was is they were these

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Speaker 2: guys from poor rural backgrounds. You know, it could gone

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Speaker 2: to be a policeman after they served in the military.

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Speaker 2: They didn't have a tuxedo. They barely had one suit

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Speaker 2: that they had to wear their detective suits. So one

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Speaker 2: of the debutantes, Margaret Otis, offered to help pay to

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Speaker 2: rent tuxedos for the policemen, and so they would go

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Speaker 2: to these events and stand there looking around. Everyone knew

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Speaker 2: they were policemen because it's a pretty small circle. So

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Speaker 2: that didn't last very long, but interesting enough, the woman

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Speaker 2: who offered to pay for the tuxedos after she chaired

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Speaker 2: one of the really big galas. She was burgled herself.

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Speaker 2: So the police tried, they were trying to catch em.

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Speaker 2: They tried are flights, they tried putting infrared cameras out,

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Speaker 2: they tried putting wires across the creek, and he always

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Speaker 2: managed to evade them.

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Speaker 1: He never hit the same place twice, I'm assuming or

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Speaker 1: did he?

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Speaker 2: He did a couple of times, you know, and that

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Speaker 2: scared peepe It even more because he could come back.

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Speaker 2: And so a lot of them got burglar rooms thinking

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Speaker 2: that would help. There was one couple of the Schultzes.

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Speaker 2: He often struck on New Year's Eve because he knew

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Speaker 2: people were going out that have on nice jewelry, probably

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Speaker 2: had quite a bit of drink, come home late, put

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Speaker 2: it on the dresser in the bathroom. The Schultzes lived

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Speaker 2: on Park Lane. Park Lane was the street where the

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Speaker 2: Goths lived, and it was more or less the Lore

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Speaker 2: Valley of Dallas. There were so many beautiful homes there,

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Speaker 2: and five or six of them were hit within a

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Speaker 2: small a couple of blocks long, and the Schultzers lived

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Speaker 2: on Park Lane. They went to a neighborhood party, came

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Speaker 2: home and while they were asleep the thief came in

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Speaker 2: a window, walked up up the stairs, walked by the

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Speaker 2: rooms where their sons were sleeping, and again by the dogs,

349
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Speaker 2: and got the jewelry and left. And that was spooky

350
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Speaker 2: enough that the last burglary the King did in nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy was the Schultz house again, and it was the

352
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Speaker 2: same mo It was nears. While they were at he came.

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Speaker 2: He paced underneath the window, watching their sons till they

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Speaker 2: went to bed, and then when the Shultzes came home,

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Speaker 2: went up the stairs again and into their room. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: people could never really relax.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you can tell me what the journey

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Speaker 1: of a stolen diamond would have been between nineteen fifty

359
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Speaker 1: nine and nineteen seventy. And I asked this because we

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Speaker 1: recently on the show interviewed an author who covered an

361
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Speaker 1: art thief, and we talked about how difficult it would

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Speaker 1: have been for this art thief and his girlfriend to

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Speaker 1: sell the artwork somewhere, so they just kept it in

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Speaker 1: their They kept it in their attic and laid on

365
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Speaker 1: the couch and hung out and loved it. But with

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Speaker 1: a diamond, would this diamond thief be able to sell it?

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Speaker 1: Easily or would it have been traced in this time

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Speaker 1: period really easily.

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Speaker 2: That was a fascinating book. By the way, the art

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Speaker 2: Thief and the cases are very similar in some ways. Well,

371
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Speaker 2: you know, keep in mind this was in nineteen sixty

372
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Speaker 2: and they didn't have the technology that we have today.

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Speaker 2: The few fingerprints they found were smudged. They were not

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Speaker 2: that adept at taking fingerprints, and there was no such

375
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Speaker 2: thing as aphis and the fingerprint system where you can

376
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Speaker 2: computerize this computerized and you can compare fingerprints, and so

377
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 2: downstairs in the basement of the police department they had

378
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Speaker 2: box after box, like shoe boxes full of these fingerprint cards. Well,

379
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Speaker 2: who could go through that? And the king didn't really

380
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Speaker 2: leave very many anyway, And people wonder, well, why didn't

381
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Speaker 2: they use DNA evidence, And that was a good point

382
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Speaker 2: because in one house he smoked a lot of cigarettes,

383
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Speaker 2: well he waited for him to go out. In another house,

384
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Speaker 2: he helped himself to a glass of water and smoked

385
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 2: some cigarettes that he left. But DNA evidence wasn't really

386
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 2: used in trials until nineteen eighty seven, so we're talking

387
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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty and they also didn't have the fingerprint system,

388
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Speaker 2: which was nineteen eighty nine, so that's a long way

389
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Speaker 2: past nineteen sixty. They also didn't have systems to identify jewelry.

390
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Speaker 2: Now they can identify with laser marks or pictorial content,

391
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Speaker 2: and they can computerize, you know, particularly something like the

392
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Speaker 2: growth diamond, which would be so fabulous and big that

393
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,360
Speaker 2: they would have you would be able to trace that,

394
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Speaker 2: but back then they didn't. A very small percentage of

395
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Speaker 2: burglary cases we ever saw, but your best shot would

396
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: be really something spectacular like those fingroths Dimond and many

397
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Speaker 2: of these jewels were just spectacular, but they disappeared, and

398
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Speaker 2: you have that led me into an area of having

399
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Speaker 2: to look at, you know, who could make jewels disappear.

400
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 2: That would have to be organized crime. So I had

401
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 2: to look at the level of organized crime in Dallas

402
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 2: to see, you know, could you go through a pawn shop.

403
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Speaker 2: Had to look at pawnshops, which was a really interesting

404
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 2: subculture in itself, and look at organized crime. And it

405
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Speaker 2: turned out Dallas always said it didn't have organized crime,

406
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: but it did. Maybe people didn't want to acknowledge it.

407
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 2: It was limited in some way. It was almost a

408
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: subset of the New Orleans Lacosinoska Mafia, almost like a

409
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Speaker 2: colony of New Orleans, but it was there. And there

410
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 2: was another layer of what was called the Dixie Mafia,

411
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 2: which was a southern redneck kind of loosely associated group

412
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Speaker 2: of criminals. And then you had the gamblers who oversaw

413
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 2: all millions that were gambled in Dallas. As much as

414
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Speaker 2: ten million a week was gambled in Dallas back in

415
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty. So you know, that's a lot of book making,

416
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 2: a lot of money that disappears. So there were multiple

417
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 2: levels of crime, and all of them stole jewels because

418
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 2: it's just a great portable currency and if you have connections,

419
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 2: it can be in Chicago or New York before the

420
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 2: police could even look for printer Prince, and then overseas

421
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Speaker 2: to some of the great jewelry on propose around the world.

422
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: I think the answer is is that it would not

423
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Speaker 1: have been difficult for him to unload these diamonds without

424
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: being traced obviously, so he was making money if he

425
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Speaker 1: wanted to make money.

426
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Speaker 2: Right, But you know, that was another interesting facet of

427
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 2: the case for that many jewels over that period of

428
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: time to just totally disappear off the face of the

429
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Speaker 2: Captain Fannin who left the Burgerary investigation. He was puzzled.

430
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Speaker 2: He could understand that you could find ways to fence jewelry,

431
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: but somebody somewhere they would, you know, something like the

432
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: Graff diamond. Somebody would notice it, or they would hear

433
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 2: that it had been sold or it had been cut

434
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 2: into pieces. And that's what made this kind of a

435
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: why done it? Getting back to your art thief, the

436
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 2: why done it? Why would somebody steal from their friends

437
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: and neighbors. Why couldn't they catch him? So the why

438
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 2: became just as important as the how. The how was

439
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: very important because he was so skilled in at one

440
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: point that Paul McCarran, he was a lieutenant who worked

441
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 2: with Captain Bennon very closely. He did an incredibly creative

442
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 2: thing that he did a psychological profile to try to

443
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: get at this why of the case. And he had

444
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: tried to continue his education. Most of these policemen didn't

445
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 2: have high school education, so if they did, they had

446
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: to go back to get their college education so they

447
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,719
Speaker 2: could get promoted. And mccaren had gone to night school

448
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: at SMU and had a psychology professor who really impressed him,

449
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: So he asked his psychology professor to do a psychological

450
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: prom file. He rode around with the police at night

451
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 2: all night, he read all the cases, and he came

452
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: up with a psychological profile of the thief, which was

453
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: very innovative because if you think about it, you know

454
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: about the FBI and their database of serial killers and

455
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: their profiling system. They didn't start that till nineteen seventy two.

456
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: So the Dallas police were doing this in nineteen sixty

457
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: one sixty two on their own because they just could

458
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: not figure out what to do about this burgler who

459
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: didn't fit any pattern that they knew. So this professor,

460
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: doctor Robert Stolkes, did a psychological profile, and he hypothesized

461
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: that it was somebody from a well to do family

462
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: because he had such good manners. Sometimes if he climbed

463
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 2: on a chair, he would put a towel then to

464
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: not smudge the chair. He would put everything back exactly

465
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 2: like it was. He didn't rifle through things. They figured

466
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: he might have gone to the school there because he

467
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 2: knew the area so where it might have grown up

468
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 2: in that area, and that he was probably part of

469
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: the social set, that he had social entree that he

470
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: was probably in his early thirties, and that he was nimble,

471
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: more so than athletic. Probably not somebody who had been

472
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: in contact sports in school, but very agile, something even

473
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 2: from gymnastics, maybe golf, maybe tennis, something like that. So

474
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: not a big bruiser, but somebody who was very agile,

475
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 2: and somebody who was maybe a mama's boy, because he

476
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: only took women's jewelry and he only took the most

477
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: beautiful jewels. He would go through a drawer full of

478
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 2: two hundred thousand dollars worth of jewels and he would

479
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 2: only take certain ones. Another burglar would just take the

480
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 2: whole thing, sweep in the bag and sort of that. Later.

481
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: He was very choosy what he took. And so Stoltz's

482
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: profile was very progressive for time, and it gave police

483
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: a way to visualize who they were looking for. You know,

484
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 2: they had no idea of who they were looking for,

485
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: but now they did.

486
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: Well, if he's picky, does that say to you that

487
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: he's not selling these, that he's doing it for the

488
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: challenge or the kind of jab at the people in

489
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: his social circle for some reason, and that maybe he

490
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: is just doing this to see if he can do

491
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: it and keep the jewels and admire them, because this

492
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: does not seem like somebody who is anxious for money

493
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: or involved in drugs or any of the things, or

494
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: the mafia. It just seems like somebody who maybe wants

495
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: to make a statement or proves something to himself. What

496
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: do you think, No.

497
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: I think you're very close. In fact, still said that

498
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: in his profile, that somebody with the grudge because at times,

499
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: let's say, if there were a pair of diamond ear rings,

500
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: he would take just one, oh gosh, and it spoiled

501
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: the set. And so there was something very odd or

502
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: about the things that he would take in the people

503
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: he would take it from. Sometimes it wasn't the people

504
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: with the most fabulous jewelry, but they maybe had sentimental favorites,

505
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: like their grandmother's pen. But they would be people who

506
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: were respected, people who were admired for their character, and

507
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: they were accepted in society, and so the impression built

508
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: that this was somebody who was an insider who felt

509
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: like an outsider.

510
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: If you're thinking that this is someone who is rich adjacent,

511
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: so the hairdresser, the butler, any of those people, you know,

512
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: you would think that they would want all the jewels. Yes,

513
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: they might have a grudge, but those would be somebody

514
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: you would think would want all the money and then

515
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: the grudge would come second. But this seems grudged first.

516
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: So maybe it is someone from the social circle. What

517
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: does that mean? Do they target really specific people? This

518
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: must have just caused such a problem in high society

519
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: in Dallas.

520
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. I mean if you were a woman, you

521
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: would think, you know, it could be the man I'm

522
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: dancing with now, you know, he could be close enough

523
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: to smell my chal lamar looking at my necklace. It

524
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: definitely put people on edge. When they would leave town.

525
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: They would get house sitters to come sit in their house,

526
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: and he would get right by the house sitters. It

527
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: didn't help, or they would lock up things. He would

528
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: figure out a way to get in there. So again,

529
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: the psychological impact was considerable. But as you said before, stealing,

530
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: taking that risk, you get a certain high too, you know,

531
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: not just with the beauty of the gems, but you

532
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: get you get a certain high from you know, being

533
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: that close to danger. It's almost like arsonists get a

534
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: buzz from burning down houses. That jewel thieves too, kind

535
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: of get a thrill out of stealing from them. One

536
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: couple came home from a dinner and they, of course

537
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: had a lot to drink, and they had sex. And

538
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: they woke up the next morning and the door to

539
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: the patio was open, and so the man said to

540
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: his wife, he said, how did you leave the patio

541
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 2: door open? And she said no, why and he said, well,

542
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: it's open. They looked around. The closet was open and

543
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: some jewels had fallen on the floor, and they realized

544
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: he had been there in the closet. They had interrupted

545
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: them while they were having sex. They were so mortified

546
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: they begged the police not to put it in the

547
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: paper because they would never hear the end of it

548
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: that they were having sex well, the King of Diamonds

549
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: was in their closet, and so the police didn't. There

550
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: was one other incident where he came in. These people

551
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: were in bed and the wife noticed a little pin

552
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: like flashlight in the bathroom and looked, and the intruder

553
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: came over to the bed and shined it in her

554
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: eyes and said get up, and she said no, And

555
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: he said get up. I want you to open this

556
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: drawer and she said no, I can't, and he said, well,

557
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 2: why not, She said, because I'm in my nightie and

558
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: I don't even know you, and so he said, get up.

559
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: Her husband, who's kind of awakened himself, but pretending he's

560
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: not playing possum, he says, Ellen, get he might have

561
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: a gun, and so she gets up. He's protty her. Evelyn,

562
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: get up, Evelyn, get up. She goes and he's going

563
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: through her jewels and he tries to take a diamond

564
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: ring and she says, no, you can't have that because

565
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: that was that was my mother's and she had just

566
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 2: had her mother's funeral a couple of weeks before, so

567
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: shet her mother's jewelry right there. She said, no, you

568
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,239
Speaker 2: can't have that, and he said, no, I want it.

569
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: She said no, you can't have it, and her husband says,

570
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: from the bet. He says, Evan, let him have it.

571
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: Let him have it. So she wrestles with him, and

572
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: he said, you're making me nervous, and she's she says, well,

573
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: you're making me nervous, and so he's so frustrated that

574
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 2: he leaves and runs down the driveway and he leaves

575
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: a ruby bracelet on the driveway as he leaves, and

576
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: so they get up and a couple of relatives were

577
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: staying with them who had come in for the funeral,

578
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: and he goes the knocks on the door and he said,

579
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: did you hear that? And they said, well yeah, And

580
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: he said, well, why didn't you call the police? And

581
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 2: they said, well, we thought you were having a fight

582
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 2: with Evelyn. You just kept saying Evelyn, get up, Evelyn,

583
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 2: get out of bed. So they told that their family

584
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: for a long time they thought it was really funny,

585
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: but at the same time it was really very terrifying.

586
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for an older couple to find somebody in

587
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: their bedroom in the middle of the middle of the

588
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: nine and unfortunately, like many people, they didn't get a

589
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: good look at him because it was dark.

590
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: So tell me totals here, between mid nineteen fifties and

591
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, how many homes did he burgle? Knowing that

592
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: several of them he hit twice, I.

593
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: Was able to track down more than sixty. Wow, But

594
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 2: I think that there were more than that. It had

595
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: to have been at least one hundred, because people would

596
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 2: tell me about someone down the street in Hollan Park

597
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: and they would say there were two or three more

598
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: people down the street who were hit, but there's no

599
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: record of it. And Hollam Park in particular. They didn't

600
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: like to report these things, and often people wouldn't report

601
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: it because they didn't want anyone to know that they

602
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: had been burgled, because it might give somebody ideas, or

603
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: it might show that they kept their jewels at home,

604
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: and they for goodness sake and didn't want about to

605
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: see a police carper in their driveway. So sometimes what

606
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: they would do is instead of calling the police, they

607
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: would call their lawyer and have their lawyer call the police.

608
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: So that's an indirect way of saying I would say

609
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: more than sixty, probably one hundred. The total today of

610
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: what I could document would probably be about six million

611
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 2: dollars in jewels.

612
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: Six million dollars then or six million dollars today.

613
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 2: Six million dollars today. But keep in mind, back then,

614
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 2: let's say one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars in

615
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 2: Jim's was an awful lot of money because the average

616
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: income at that time was fifty five hundred dollars a year,

617
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: so Texas overall was a very poor state. So the

618
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 2: police estimated over a million back then, it probably was

619
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 2: a lot more than that.

620
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: So you know, I have for years and years operating

621
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: under the assumption that I think a lot of people

622
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: have is that when a series of crimes, like you know,

623
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: sexual assaults or serial killings or burglaries stops, it's because

624
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: the person is either in jail, prison, or they're dead.

625
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: And we now know that's not the case with you know,

626
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 1: my co host on another show, Paul Hols, he helped

627
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: solve the Golden State killer case where Joseph Giangelo just

628
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: sort of stopped. He had different life circumstances happening, He

629
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: got older, he wasn't able to be agile anymore. What

630
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: do you think happened that made these burglaries stop? Did

631
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: he move, did he stop having an interest in this,

632
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 1: or did he die? What do you think?

633
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: The police will say that he knew that they were

634
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 2: getting close. He knew that they had figured out who

635
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: he was. They knew they just needed to catch him.

636
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 2: And he also, as you say, was getting older. Lives.

637
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 2: Say in nineteen fifty five, if you were someone in

638
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: your early thirties, by the end of the burglarys, you

639
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: know you would be well into your forties or early fifties.

640
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: So he knew in one instance, one of the few

641
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: people who saw him a guy named Sam Wallace, and

642
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: he had just built a house near the Dallas Country Club,

643
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: close enough to walk over for state night, and he

644
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: awoke in the night and saw somebody in his bathroom

645
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: where they had the kind of ranchment in their house

646
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: where she had her bathroom on one side of the

647
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: bedroom and he had his bathroom on the other side.

648
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: And so he kind of got out of bed and

649
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,919
Speaker 2: leaned in to look into his bathroom, and he saw

650
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,959
Speaker 2: a man going through the doors. So he tiptoed back

651
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: to the bed and whispered to his wife. He said, honey,

652
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: there's someone in our house. And he called the police.

653
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 2: So he reached under the maptress and got a gun.

654
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 2: The thief heard him whispering to his wife, and so

655
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: he started running across this bedroom from the man's bathroom

656
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: to the wife's bathroom, ran into the wife's bathroom and

657
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 2: did a somersault out the window. This just totally floored

658
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 2: Sam Wallace, who's chasing him barefoot in his pajamas. Man

659
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: runs into the bathroom and does a somersault out the window,

660
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: but he landed on some garden tools and he could

661
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: hear him moaning down there, you know, hit with the thud,

662
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: and actually when they looked in daylight, there was a

663
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: dent in the ground. So Sam Wallace tries to shoot him,

664
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: and his gun jams, so he says, hold still, damn it,

665
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: hold still, and he's trying to unjam his game and

666
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: get off another shot. And the thief gets up and

667
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 2: he limps moaning to the fence and climbs over and

668
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: gets away. Well, probably he was hurked then, and you know,

669
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: he probably had some physical damage from some of these

670
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: daring new feats that he did, so as he got older,

671
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: it probably would have been harder and harder than somersault

672
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: out the window.

673
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: When the police ended their investigation when all of this,

674
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: who did they land on was their most likely suspect

675
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: before you picked up your own investigation.

676
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 2: You know, six years ago, they did have several people

677
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: that they thought weren't involved, and they would bring one

678
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 2: of them in for questioning and he would look at

679
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: him and he would say, prove it. And they didn't

680
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: have the case to catch them red handed. And you know,

681
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: you can just go for so many years staking out

682
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 2: a house with no returns to go the thing that

683
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: really slowed down. The investigation was the Kennedy assassination. When

684
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: it happened, you can picture these things have been going

685
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: on since fifty four or fifty nine. Was Josephine Grauf.

686
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 2: Nineteen sixty one was his biggest year when he hit

687
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: Clint Murkison, the oil man. That in sixty three, when

688
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 2: the Kennedy assession, it was such a dolt to the

689
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 2: whole city. It was so traumatizing. The police had to

690
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 2: investigate all kinds of things, not just the assassination, but

691
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: Jack Ruby's assassination of this is infected killer. So they

692
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 2: took Paul McCarron, who was the lead detective on the

693
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: Jule Deaf case, and put him on the Kennedy case

694
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: to investigate what went wrong? How did their security fail

695
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: so that Jack Ruby could shoot Lee Harvey Oswald Fann

696
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: and the captain in charge of Berkeley was promoted up

697
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: after that, and so the two people who knew the

698
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 2: most about the case were no longer on the case.

699
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 2: The police kept looking for him, but it never assumed

700
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,760
Speaker 2: the intensity that it originally had. It was no longer

701
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: on the front pages. In fact, when the Herman Layburger

702
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: had and it was clearly the King of diamonds. It

703
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: didn't even make the news. They didn't identify it as

704
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: the King of diamonds. So time ran out on them

705
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: as what was on the thief. He got older and

706
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: their police leadership was more fractured and distracted, so when

707
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: it ended in nineteen seventy, it just ended.

708
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: So you've done a huge amount of reasons charch on this.

709
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: You picked up the case, You interviewed more than two

710
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: hundred people, and I don't want to ruin the ending

711
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: of the book, but you do have some assumptions after

712
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: doing all of this research, you feel like you maybe

713
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: could get a little bit closer than the police in

714
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy could have.

715
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 2: Yes, because I had tools they didn't have. I had

716
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 2: the Internet. I could check addresses, I could track people

717
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: down that they didn't find, and I narrated down. It

718
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 2: was almost like a word cloud where if something shows up,

719
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: you know it's in bigger print, then multiple times it's

720
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: in bigger print. That if someone's name came up more

721
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 2: than ten times, I looked at them more closely, because

722
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: there were dozens dozens of people suspected over time, But

723
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 2: if their name came up over ten times. I looked

724
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,439
Speaker 2: at them very intensely, in depth and trying to see

725
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 2: if they fit. I ended up with about five people

726
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: that I really could make a pretty good case that

727
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: it could have been then. But I determined that there

728
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 2: was probably one individual who fit the profile that Professor

729
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 2: Stoltz did, and the police reached the same conclusion. Paul

730
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: McCarron would say, and he said from our very first

731
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: meeting that we thought we knew who it was, but

732
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: we couldn't get to him. And he would return to

733
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: that over and over that they thought they knew who

734
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: it was, but they couldn't get to it. I think

735
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: that was largely true. I ended up and I've got

736
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: admit whenever I've spoken to book groups pre publication, word

737
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: got out that I was working on a book about

738
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: the King of Diamonds, and people are like, oh, King

739
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 2: of Diamonds, we've got to go hear this. But there

740
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 2: was almost always some woman would stand up and say

741
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: I know who it was. I know who it was,

742
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: and I go, well, let's talk, let's talk. There were

743
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: all kinds of names that came up from hardened street criminals.

744
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: Like I said, there were multiple layers of crime in

745
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 2: the city, and a lot of them stow jewels for

746
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: ready money. But I figured out most things led to

747
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: this certain individual, and so I tried to document as

748
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: much as I could. I still worry that I'll give

749
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 2: a talk, to a book talk and somebody will stand

750
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: up and say, no, it wasn't that person. It was

751
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 2: this person, or I was the person, or my uncle

752
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 2: was the person. So I left a little bit of

753
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: wiggle room that I think this is what was I'm

754
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: ninety percent sure, but I left a little wiggle room

755
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: to say, if it wasn't this person, then who was it. Yeah,

756
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: and I don't think anybody else can make quite the

757
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 2: same case that I did, but that I guess I

758
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: have to leave open the door that there's always that possibility.

759
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: This person is he still around, Like if there's some

760
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: miraculous thing happened and he confessed to someone, could there

761
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: be any sort of retribution here?

762
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 2: No, Luckily he's not. But I did hear that at

763
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 2: one point his younger sister, a lot of people thought

764
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: it was him and were saying, you know, your brother

765
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 2: is the king of diamonds. Your brother might be the

766
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: king of diamonds. And so she went to him, and

767
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 2: she asked him point blank, she said, are you the

768
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: king of diamonds? And he just laughed, but he didn't

769
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: he didn't say no. So there we are. I think

770
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 2: some things in life need to remain a little bit mysterious.

771
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: I agreed you had mentioned that he had smoked cigarettes there.

772
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to assume that that evidence is not still

773
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: around for DNA testing or is.

774
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 2: It no sad to say? I mean they were there

775
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 2: were poor, poor record keepers, and they threw away all

776
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 2: the plaster casts, they flew away everything. You know. It

777
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,479
Speaker 2: was not a sophisticated outfit at that time. I think

778
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: their crime lab was one room at Parkland Hospital and

779
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: one of the policemen told me said it was. It

780
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: was so infuriating because they found the tip to a

781
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 2: pry bar, which is a device that burglers used to

782
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 2: pry open windows and doors. Almost looks like a garden tool,

783
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: but you can it's bigger than and a screwdriver with

784
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: a wide flat edge. And they found the tip of

785
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 2: a privee bar. And the police in Oklahoma found a

786
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: prie bar that might match, and so they took it

787
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 2: to the crime lab to see if it matched, and

788
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 2: they could connect the burglaries and the crime lab lost them. Yeah,

789
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: so that was the level of sophistication. At one point.

790
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 2: The policemen didn't usually take fingerprints on burglaries. After this

791
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: got started, they did for a lot of the cases,

792
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: but they were so clumsy in one of the houses.

793
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 2: You know, it's this black powder that you spread on

794
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: things with the rush and then you put a piece

795
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: of paper on it and get an imprint from it.

796
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: They spilled their black powder all over the white carpet

797
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 2: in this house and ruined it because it was this

798
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: indelible black powder. So evidence gathering at record keeping were

799
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 2: not their strong suits.

800
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: Your suspect, who we're not going to name, you have

801
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: to read the book to find out why would he

802
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: have stopped in nineteen seventy what happened in his life

803
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: life that would have changed things? Do you think it

804
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: was that injury?

805
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: Could have been Several of the police said that they

806
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: thought we were getting too close. And after there was

807
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: this changing of the guard where McCarn was promoted up.

808
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 2: He was really a brilliant, talented cop, and Fanning, who

809
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: was a very well respected man, he was promoted up

810
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: and one of the policemen still on the case, John

811
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 2: Chisholm and his partner Charlie Dellinger, they were staking out

812
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: some guys and following them to these bars in the

813
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 2: Oaklawn area of Dallas, and they were watching him very closely.

814
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 2: And they had developed some sources in Oaklawn who told

815
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 2: him about some people who were stealing things. So I'm

816
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: sure they looked up and saw these cops in these

817
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: bars every night watching them. And Chisholm said, the same

818
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: theme M. Karen said is that he knew we were close.

819
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 2: He knew we were watching him, and so to avoid exposure,

820
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 2: because if you were a social figure, you wouldn't want

821
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 2: to be exposed as the jewelry. I mean, besides the

822
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 2: prison term, which would have been substantial, you know, you

823
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 2: would still cling to your social friends. And so he

824
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: had in several instances when he was interrupted, like Sam

825
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 2: Wallace or the teenager who walked out in the hall,

826
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: he ran. You didn't want to be seen and he

827
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 2: didn't want to be caught. So he could have just

828
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 2: given up because the game was over. You knew the

829
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 2: game was over.

830
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: So you know, as we wrap this up again, this

831
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: is such an unusual true crime story, and oftentimes I

832
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: talk about the victim who you know, and I've done

833
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: many stories where we have the victim who you just

834
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: think this victim is not a very likable person, or

835
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, in the case of your book, these jewels

836
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: represent just I'm sure a tiny drop in the bucket

837
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: of some of the wealth of these people. But the

838
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: feeling of being watched, of being stalked, of having your

839
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: home invaded must been terrifying for them, as you found

840
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: out through your interviews, and I think it's something that

841
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: all of us can relate to. So what is the

842
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: lesson that you learned from this book? Is it about

843
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: the victims or you know, what is your big takeaway?

844
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 2: You know, some of the things, like you talk about,

845
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,720
Speaker 2: these were not people who maybe would miss the money,

846
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: but a great many of the things that he took

847
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,919
Speaker 2: were sentimental, like people's wedding rings, their wedding rings, yeah,

848
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: their grandmother's ring, a little necklace that said I love you,

849
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 2: something that they gave their wife when their child was born,

850
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:37,439
Speaker 2: things that couldn't be replaced. I will say, the more

851
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 2: I learned about the family background of the individual that

852
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 2: was my most likely suspect. He had a truly wretched childhood,

853
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 2: young adulthood. And at one point I thought to myself,

854
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: I feel sorry for him. This was a bad thing

855
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: that he did, but I felt sorry for him. And

856
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 2: then I told myself, had this conversation with myself, well,

857
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 2: detectives don't feel sorry. There's no sorry, and detective work

858
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 2: just like no crying in baseball. And yet I could

859
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: see the whole person. He was a scarred person. A

860
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: lot of people compared him to the Phantom of the opera,

861
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 2: that they were both scarred and they wanted the objects

862
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,439
Speaker 2: of their desire. There's something to that I could see

863
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 2: where everyone in the story. There were no perfect people

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00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: in this story, although some people tried a little harder

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00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: than others. But it's essentially it is a very Gatsbys

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00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: story that there were a lot of strivers, people who

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00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 2: wanted to be somebody, people who wanted to be loved.

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00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 2: And that's the great human story, isn't it, The great

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00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: desire to be somebody and to be loved. And I

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00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 2: think that was at the core of it. Really.

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00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

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00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

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00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and don't forget. There are

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00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

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00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

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00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

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00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis

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00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode

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00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer,

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00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

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00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at

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00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod