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Speaker 1: Hey, it's Lauren brad Pacheco, and I am so excited

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Speaker 1: to be back in the host chair for Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: The new season drops November thirteenth with brand new episodes

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Speaker 1: and more unbelievable stories of people who refuse to let

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Speaker 1: injustice to find them. But while we gear up for launch,

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Speaker 1: I want to take you back to one of my

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Speaker 1: all time favorite conversations from last season. It's with the

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Speaker 1: incredibly inspiring and absolutely unstoppable Jimmy Soto. Jemmy spent forty

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Speaker 1: two years behind bars, making his case the longest wrongful

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Speaker 1: conviction in Illinois history. You'll also hear from his close friend,

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Speaker 1: fellow ex honoree and former cellmate Robert Almodovar. Together, these

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Speaker 1: two are absolutely unforgettable. I mean, dynamic duo doesn't even

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Speaker 1: begin to cover it. I hope you'll enjoy spending time

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Speaker 1: with them as much as I did, and I'll be

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Speaker 1: back in two weeks with more unforgettable profiles of people

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Speaker 1: who turned in justice into strength and hope into freedom.

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Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have

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Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for

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Speaker 1: crimes even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it

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Speaker 1: like to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's

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Speaker 1: it like to be their ally, the one outside committed

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Speaker 1: to fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and

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Speaker 1: this is wrongful conviction. When he was just twenty years old,

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Speaker 1: an act of violence would change James Soto's life forever

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Speaker 1: and the trajectory for the next four decades. At about

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Speaker 1: nine pm on August sixteenth, nineteen eighty one, shots rang

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Speaker 1: out in Chicago's Little Village neighborhood, killing two people and

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Speaker 1: injuring a third. Although eyewitnesses initially pointed to other suspects,

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Speaker 1: police ultimately arrested a few members of the two sixth

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Speaker 1: Street gang, which controlled the territory, including James Soto. Despite

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Speaker 1: no physical evidence tying him to the crime and plenty

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Speaker 1: of defense witnesses, James was convicted of the shooting and

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Speaker 1: sentenced to life without parole. Soto and his cousin David Ayala,

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Speaker 1: would spend forty two years in prison, the longest served

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Speaker 1: wrongful conviction sentences in Illinois history, until they were exonerated

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Speaker 1: in December of twenty twenty three. James Soto is joining

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Speaker 1: me today with a man who's been a tremendous support

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Speaker 1: to him and shares much in common with James as well.

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Speaker 1: In addition to also having been rightfully convicted and exonerated,

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Speaker 1: Robert Almodovar is not only a close friend to James,

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Speaker 1: but the two men were actually cellmates while in prison.

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Speaker 1: Both now share the same passion for raising awareness for

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Speaker 1: criminal justice reform. We have so much to cover. Thank

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Speaker 1: you both for joining me, Jimmy and Robert, well.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for hosting us and having us here.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, thank you.

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Speaker 1: So Just Jimmy to go back to the very beginning.

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Speaker 1: You know you're now in your sixties, but take me

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Speaker 1: back to the young man you were before all this

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Speaker 1: happened in nineteen eighty one. Where did you grow up

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Speaker 1: and what was your upbringing?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, I grew up in the Pullman area,

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Speaker 2: which is on the far south side of Chicago on

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Speaker 2: ninety eighth in Avalon. I've learned later in life that

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Speaker 2: the neighborhoods that we grew up in in our formative

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Speaker 2: years really make us who we are. So I will

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Speaker 2: always be a Southsider from Chicago and the people as

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Speaker 2: youicgo because we're so segregated. We're very proud from whatever

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Speaker 2: section of the city that we come from. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I grew up there. I had a fondness for sports.

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Speaker 2: Baseball was my number one thing. I was on the

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Speaker 2: Avalon Cubs, which at a young age made me a

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Speaker 2: Cup fan, and I am a Cup fan for life,

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Speaker 2: and I was so glad when they won the World Series.

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Speaker 2: Fortunately I was locked up when that happened, but I'll

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Speaker 2: take it. So the summer of my fourteenth birthday, we

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Speaker 2: moved to the Brighton Park area, which is on the

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Speaker 2: southwest side of Chicago, and I stayed there for most

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Speaker 2: of high school. Then in nineteen eighty one, my uncle

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Speaker 2: was murdered by gun violence in the Little Village area,

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Speaker 2: and that was my cousin and co defendant, David Yalla's father,

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Speaker 2: I'll Fonso, and they had her house in Westchester anyway,

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Speaker 2: in the western suburbs, and I wound up going to

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Speaker 2: live with David shortly thereafter. It was a very nice

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Speaker 2: urban home, had a built in swimming pool, It had

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Speaker 2: a mini gym, a greenhouse, five bedrooms, two and a

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Speaker 2: half bats basement, fully furnished so you can imagine David

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Speaker 2: was eighteen and I was twenty. I wouldn't say young men.

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Speaker 2: We were more like late adolescents, teenagers more so. Living

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Speaker 2: in a nice house. And yeah, I mean Dave had

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Speaker 2: some money that his father left them. There was a

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Speaker 2: life insurance policy, so he didn't have to work at

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Speaker 2: the time. I was working at United Parcel Service as

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Speaker 2: a sorterer. But to say that we weren't enjoying ourselves

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Speaker 2: living pretty lavishly would be an understatement. So having all

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Speaker 2: that naturally made the Chicago Police Department CPD seeing us

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Speaker 2: driving luxury, fancy cars, Lincoln Cadillacs, those are the cars

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Speaker 2: of that time period, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, Oh, that's it. So they made the assumption that

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Speaker 1: they knew how you were bankrolling all that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the assumption was that it was coming from, you know,

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Speaker 2: illicit drug sales, but that was not the truth. The

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Speaker 2: truth was it was just some things that were left

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Speaker 2: over to David and I'm working. I actually was paying

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Speaker 2: car notes, so my car was being financed. So had

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Speaker 2: they dug a little deeper, they would have realized my

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Speaker 2: car particular was not paid off.

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Speaker 1: Coming from the neighborhoods that you did was gang activity

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Speaker 1: very much on your radar on a daily basis throughout

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Speaker 1: high school.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely not, it was not. It wasn't really until

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine when David's brother Alfonso the third gets

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Speaker 2: killed by gun violence. It was very hard for me

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Speaker 2: because it was my brother, David's oldest brother Tyrone. Then

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Speaker 2: it's me and then Alfonso and then David, and we're

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Speaker 2: all one year apart. So I would spend a lot

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Speaker 2: of summers at David's house when they were living in

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Speaker 2: little village. And so that's how I wound up getting

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Speaker 2: involved in any gang was because my cousin had been killed.

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Speaker 2: You know, I took it pretty hard, and as a

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Speaker 2: young he was seventeen, so I would have been eighteen.

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Speaker 2: As a young eighteen year old to have to deal

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Speaker 2: with that, you know, there was no one that gave

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Speaker 2: me any therapy for the trauma I was dealing with,

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Speaker 2: and the loss of I consider more like a brother

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Speaker 2: than a cousin, and so to know that he was

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Speaker 2: killed in that way, I misguidingly wanted to be part

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Speaker 2: of the same thing that he was involved in, to

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Speaker 2: seek some type of revenge. But it wasn't like I

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Speaker 2: was out looking for revenge it was just a way

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Speaker 2: in his honor that I thought, I need to be

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Speaker 2: a part of this, I need to do something. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And there's also a huge social component of that too.

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Speaker 1: Of course, it's belonging in friendship and camaraderie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I would not defined myself as a hardcore

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Speaker 2: game member. I was what people would label as a

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Speaker 2: marginal gang member. I was on the fringes. I was

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Speaker 2: not someone because I'm working, I don't have no time

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Speaker 2: to go hang out and do whatever.

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Speaker 1: So had you ever been on law enforcement radar before

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Speaker 1: the incident in the time leading up to it, had

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Speaker 1: you ever had trouble with the law?

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Speaker 2: No? Well, yeah, I was arrested one time for what's

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Speaker 2: called a uu W unlawful use of a weapon. Some

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Speaker 2: detectives that pulled me over and found a gun, unregistered

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Speaker 2: gun in my car and charged me. But when it

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Speaker 2: came down to the problem cause of why they stopped me,

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Speaker 2: it was simply because I was in a Lincoln Continental

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Speaker 2: and I was just I guess you would say, profiled.

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Speaker 2: And my lawyer was able to get the case thrown

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Speaker 2: out pretty easily because of the illegal stop, and the

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Speaker 2: judge threw it out so that was on my criminal record.

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Speaker 2: I had no other runs with law enforcement. When there

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Speaker 2: would be various shootings. Once they knew I was part

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Speaker 2: of a game, I was taken in several times and

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Speaker 2: questioned about it. I just, you know, said I want

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Speaker 2: a lawyer, and they pretty much left me alone.

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Speaker 1: And at the time, so you're employed for two years

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Speaker 1: at that point with you said, ups, what were your

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Speaker 1: thoughts or plans for the future.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I had a girlfriend at the time.

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Speaker 2: I just learned, maybe two weeks before I was arrested

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Speaker 2: on this case, that she was pregnant. So in my mind,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, she's going to have a baby. When

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Speaker 2: I learned she was pregnant, my thought was, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to settle down. I'm going to have to get my

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Speaker 2: own place and start a little family.

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Speaker 1: So take me to the night of the incident. So

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Speaker 1: it was August sixteenth, nineteen eighty one, around nine pm

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Speaker 1: on the southwest side of Chicago. Where were you at

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 2: I was in Westchester. It was me, my cousin David,

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Speaker 2: his girlfriend, my girlfriend, and my oldest sister with two

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Speaker 2: of her kids were at the house, and my sister

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Speaker 2: had prepared a meal for us, and I remember that

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Speaker 2: I just got my two plates and I went up

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Speaker 2: to my bedroom with my girlfriend and we were watching

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Speaker 2: some movies on the VCR, so long ago. Those things

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Speaker 2: are now no longer in existence. And yeah, she left

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Speaker 2: later in the evening, at around ten o'clock. So they

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Speaker 2: had the story on the ten o'clock news about, you know,

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Speaker 2: two people being shot killed and one third one being

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Speaker 2: injured at an incident in Petrowski or a Keiler park.

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Speaker 1: So, for somebody who's not familiar with the geography, how

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Speaker 1: far were you physically away from where the shooting occurred.

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Speaker 2: I would say that was a distance of about thirty

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Speaker 2: miles at least.

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Speaker 1: Thirty miles away. And unfortunately, yes, three people were shot

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Speaker 1: to fatally wounded, a sixteen year old Julie Limas who

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Speaker 1: was aspiring to be a police officer, and an eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old Hector Valeriano, who was on leave from the

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Speaker 1: US Marine Corps at the time. So it's a tragic incident,

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Speaker 1: but you're thirty miles away from it at the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my thought was, you know, that's a terrible thing

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Speaker 2: that happened in the neighborhood of the gang or organization

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Speaker 2: that we were part of, but I didn't give it

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Speaker 2: a second thought to think who might have had any

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Speaker 2: involvement in it. I figured, oh, they're going to get

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Speaker 2: somebody for this, But little did I know they would

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Speaker 2: eventually try to point the finger at me.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, the investigation ends up focusing on gang rivalries,

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Speaker 1: and even though eyewitness accounts identified entirely different people, the

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Speaker 1: investigation then starts focusing on the two six gang that

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Speaker 1: you're affiliated with, but just on the fringe. When did

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Speaker 1: you find out that you were on the investigators radar?

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Speaker 2: To my knowledge, my name doesn't really come up until

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Speaker 2: the month of October. I believe that's when they finally

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Speaker 2: start saying, well, okay, because they thought they was involved.

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Speaker 2: They said, okay, well this other guy has to be

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Speaker 2: involved as well. But it was never really founded on,

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Speaker 2: like you said, on any eyewitness identifying me. It was

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Speaker 2: just they now said, okay, if David's involved, this other

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Speaker 2: guy got to be involved as well.

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Speaker 1: So they just bundled you with your cousin and neither

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Speaker 1: of you were there, correct, So how were you arrested?

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Speaker 1: How did that go down? Where were you? Who were

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Speaker 1: you with?

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Speaker 2: So I got arrested on October fifteenth, Once again, I

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Speaker 2: was in Westchester with my girlfriend, and ironically my sister

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Speaker 2: was there as well, the oldest, so that would be

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Speaker 2: later be my alibi. She was there. She made another

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Speaker 2: homemade meal, I remember it. It was spaghetti with homemade

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Speaker 2: meatballs and Italian sausage and a garlic bread. And I

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Speaker 2: was just beginning my plate to take it upstairs with

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Speaker 2: me and my girl to share, when we hear the

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Speaker 2: knock on the door, boom boom, and then there's a

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Speaker 2: pounding on the back door, boom boom. I'm like, what's

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Speaker 2: going on? So we look out the window and we

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Speaker 2: see all these lights and policemen running up to the thing.

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Speaker 2: We open the door and they come in and cuple

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Speaker 2: us up. They just said they had a warrant. They

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Speaker 2: didn't say it was an unrest warrant. They didn't say

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Speaker 2: whether it was a search warrant. Yeah, So they went

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Speaker 2: about the house searching it, obviously not coming up with anything,

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Speaker 2: and they took us into custody. And when I get

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Speaker 2: to the police station is when I first learned that.

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Speaker 2: They tell me you're under arrest for two murders and

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Speaker 2: a tent murder and this is a capital of fence

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Speaker 2: and you better say something now if you want to

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Speaker 2: save yourself.

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Speaker 1: Well, Jimmy, what was going through your mind? You must

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Speaker 1: have thought, all right, stupid mistake. It's going to be corrected.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly what's going through my mind. I'm like, this

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Speaker 2: can't be right, you know. Fortunately, there was an attorney

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Speaker 2: that was at the police station who would later become

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Speaker 2: my trial attorney. And he came and spoke with me

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Speaker 2: and said, they said they have witnesses, and he said,

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Speaker 2: I don't have any of the paperwork. He asked me,

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Speaker 2: point blank, did you have anything to do with it?

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Speaker 2: Of course I told him no, And he's like, well,

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Speaker 2: don't worry about it. If you didn't have nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with it, it'll work out. Just don't say anything.

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Speaker 2: And that was it. So in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's a mistake, and you know, they could be cleared

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Speaker 2: up fairly soon and I'll be out. But that wasn't

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Speaker 2: the case.

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Speaker 1: From that moment on. You're held until your trial.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was held with no bond in the Cook

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Speaker 2: County jail. I was there for probably a year before

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Speaker 2: I went to trial. I went to September of nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty two to trial, but leading up to it, I

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Speaker 2: would eventually find out some pieces of like that they

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Speaker 2: only had one witness who would be best termed an

255
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Speaker 2: accomplished witness. He was a young teenager as well, and

256
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Speaker 2: he made a statement that David and I were supposedly

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Speaker 2: conspiring prior to the shooting with a group of other

258
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Speaker 2: individuals to attack a rival group. That David gets a

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Speaker 2: phone call and David then provides the key to a

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Speaker 2: custom blue van and gives us weapons, and we go

261
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Speaker 2: out to the park and me and another co defendant

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Speaker 2: supposedly walk down the gangway and shoot at the people.

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Speaker 2: And you know there was three victims as a result.

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Speaker 1: But that seems like a very convenient theory.

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Speaker 2: Well it was for them. Yeah, I didn't know that

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Speaker 2: they had rounded up again to the Colaster trial, that

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Speaker 2: they rounded up twenty five people with the West warrants,

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Speaker 2: and that out of the twenty five, at least maybe

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Speaker 2: ten or maybe twelve of them made statements which collaborated

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Speaker 2: in some sense what this individual was saying. But you

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Speaker 2: have to bear in mind that there was probably only

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Speaker 2: out of the twenty five people, maybe five were over

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Speaker 2: the age of seventeen. Everybody else was fifteen and sixteen

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Speaker 2: year olds, and I was really mad that, you know,

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Speaker 2: these individuals who were supposed to be part of a

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Speaker 2: group that I was involved in, would break down and

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Speaker 2: make this false narrative. And so my reaction was as

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Speaker 2: a young man that these guys are punks, they're chumps,

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Speaker 2: they're snitches. But as I became more mature and I

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Speaker 2: was doing my studies, I realized that they were just

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Speaker 2: as much victims and or even more so than anyone

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Speaker 2: else other than those that lost their lives and the

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Speaker 2: other that got shot. Because they were held for three days.

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Speaker 2: Imagine you a fifteen year old held three days in custody.

285
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Speaker 2: Some of them urinated on themselves, being choked, getting nothing

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Speaker 2: to eat, denied water, I mean, the sleep deprivation. I

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Speaker 2: had to look at it. Putting myself in their shoes,

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Speaker 2: I probably would have broke down and said anything they

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Speaker 2: wanted me to say at that point. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: the police officers, law enforcement have techniques that they could

291
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Speaker 2: make a grown man who was innocent telling themselves, so,

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Speaker 2: let alone a juveniles. So that started to make sense

293
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Speaker 2: to me as in the following years after my conviction.

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Speaker 2: What really was going on?

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Speaker 1: I'm trying just to get my mindset wrapped around. You're

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Speaker 1: living your life, have a steady job, have a steady girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: have a baby on the way. You're twenty years old,

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Speaker 1: and your life is just interrupted, taken away from you.

299
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Speaker 1: What was that year like for you being held in

300
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Speaker 1: the Cook County jail.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was probably one of the worst and

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00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 2: hardest years of my life because my girlfriend would eventually

303
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Speaker 2: lose the baby. She had a miscare. It was due

304
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,120
Speaker 2: to squarely to stress. She wasn't eating right because she's

305
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,440
Speaker 2: worried about me. I'm locked up. My car gets repossessed.

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Speaker 2: You know, expensive rims on my car. I had a

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Speaker 2: nice sound system. When they repossess it, it's not like

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Speaker 2: they're going to give it back. They take all that

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Speaker 2: with it. So I lost that. I was upset with that.

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Speaker 1: But are you in contact at all with your cousin

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Speaker 1: David at this point? Is he being held at the

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Speaker 1: same facility.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with him for the most part. For I

314
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,200
Speaker 2: would say at least half of that time, or maybe

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Speaker 2: seven months we were held together. There was periods where

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00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,359
Speaker 2: we would be split up. You know, That's how the

317
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,879
Speaker 2: jail is oftentimes you're moving to another section of the

318
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Speaker 2: jail and they don't really give you any reasons why.

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Speaker 2: It's just it's disruptive. The jail is not nice, it's

320
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Speaker 2: super violent, and you're going to get in fights. It's

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Speaker 2: just part of what's going on there. And we're packed

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Speaker 2: in there. There was overcrowding problem. It was people sleeping

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Speaker 2: on the floor in the dayroom. So you got this

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Speaker 2: group of people and you don't have so much time.

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Speaker 2: It was always fights over the phone if nothing else.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, Dad, in TV, what show you're gonna watch,

327
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Speaker 2: what channel you're gonna watch on TV? I would always

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Speaker 2: wind up be in a fight.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of you and David, your mindset heading

330
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Speaker 1: into that trial, how would you categorize the trial in general?

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Speaker 1: And were you at all confident?

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Speaker 2: I didn't. I don't know much about the law of

333
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 2: the legal system. It's process, and so my attorney puts

334
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,880
Speaker 2: on an alibi defense, and I told you, the only

335
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 2: evidence that really comes up that indicates either David or

336
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 2: I is this so called accomplished witness, and he had

337
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 2: implicated two people in this conspiracy as being part of

338
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 2: this meeting that led up to the shooting. One was

339
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,680
Speaker 2: in the hospital in a coma told state after being

340
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 2: hit by a car. So he's in Mother Cabreinging hospital

341
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 2: on the West Side in a coma. Mind you, this

342
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 2: guy testifies before the grand jury that he's evolved with

343
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:06,680
Speaker 2: the case. The second individual was in juvenile custody and

344
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 2: he had to plcase him as well. So this individual

345
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,640
Speaker 2: locked up ten days before this crimer, maybe even longer.

346
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, Okay, we're showing that he clearly lied

347
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 2: before the grand jury. And here's another fact. The accomplished

348
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,160
Speaker 2: witness says that David owned a Blue Custom van. No

349
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 2: Blue Custom band was ever recovered. They never showed David

350
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 2: owned one. Now one person says he owns this band,

351
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 2: that he ever had a van, There's no weapons ever recovered.

352
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,360
Speaker 2: And then they said there's a phone call that happens

353
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Speaker 2: from Home Run and Pizza to David's house in Westchester

354
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:45,120
Speaker 2: slightly probably a half hour before the shooting happens, supposedly

355
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 2: from two young women who say that they alert David

356
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 2: that there's a rival group in there. Well day subpoena

357
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,640
Speaker 2: the Illinois Bell telephone records, which showed no phone call

358
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,959
Speaker 2: was made from home run in that entire night. Today

359
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 2: its house. So again these things I'm hearing during trial,

360
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, oh, well, there's no way they're going

361
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,439
Speaker 2: to find me guilty if they're hearing dead And so

362
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 2: I'm thinking in my mind, as my lawyer told me,

363
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 2: you're going to beat this case. You're going home whenever

364
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 2: the jury comes back. There's no way they're going to

365
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 2: find you guilty. So I'm thinking, yeah, I'm going home.

366
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:26,679
Speaker 1: Because you have multiple witnesses who attest your alibi and

367
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 1: innocence being told by your defense that you should be confident.

368
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:36,919
Speaker 1: Take me to the moment that the jury announces their verdict.

369
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 2: It was maybe close to nine and a half hours

370
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 2: at a period of two days, the first evening into

371
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 2: the next day that the jury is deliberating, and they

372
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 2: send a note down and tell the judge that they're

373
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 2: struggling to come up with a verdict and they think

374
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 2: that they might be a hung jury because they cannot

375
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 2: come to a unanimous decision on this case. And so

376
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 2: my lawyer said, well, that's a good thing. That means

377
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 2: they're struggling. Well, the judge just tells the jury go back.

378
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 2: He wouldn't accept them saying that they were hung. About

379
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,880
Speaker 2: a half hour later, they come in guilty of all charges.

380
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 2: So when I hear that verdict, when you know you

381
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 2: got to stand up to hear it, the reaction was,

382
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: you can hear of some gasp. The state's attorneys were jubilant.

383
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: They were high five in each other, and I'm looking

384
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 2: at them. Then I turn around to look at my

385
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 2: family and just see them all breaking down in tears.

386
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: To see my father, who was the rock, the foundation

387
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: of our family, broken down crying. My sister's crying, my

388
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: girlfriend crying. It made me furious. I looked at my attorney.

389
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 2: I said, I thought you said we're going to beat this.

390
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 2: What happened. I looked at the judge, I looked at

391
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 2: the jury, looked them in the eye, and I'm like,

392
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 2: how could this happen? How could you come up with

393
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: a guilty verdict based on such flimsy evidence. So when

394
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 2: I do talk to my lawyer once again in the bullpen,

395
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: he comes to see me. He's seeing the how upset

396
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 2: I was, and he was like, no, you got to

397
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 2: hang in there. You got to be strong. I said,

398
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 2: it's easy for you to say, and I said, so,

399
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 2: what are we looking at and he's telling me that, well, unfortunately,

400
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 2: the laws in Illinois are that if you're found guilty

401
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 2: of two or more murders, you've got to mandatorily get

402
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: natural life. And I'm like, so what does that mean.

403
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 2: He's like, it means what it means. And I'm like really,

404
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 2: and he said, no, don't worry, We're going to go

405
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 2: on appeal. We're going to do the appeal. There's a

406
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 2: lot of things they're done wrong.

407
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: So months turned to years turned to decades.

408
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: What was the.

409
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: Biggest hurdle for you transitioning to life in prison.

410
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 2: The most difficult thing is being away from family, hearing

411
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 2: the family milestones, graduations, baptisms, communions, weddings. I wasn't there

412
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: to see people have their you know, the birth of

413
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 2: a child that's such a celebration, and so many families

414
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 2: when a new life comes in there and I'm not there,

415
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: it was difficult for me to deal with. And then

416
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 2: of course trying to maintain a relationship that certainly was

417
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 2: very hard. They got to come visit, you got to

418
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: make phone calls, et cetera, and so forth.

419
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: Well, there's so many layers to that. Onion, and also

420
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: in terms of you know, you're missing those events with

421
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: your family, but your family is missing them with you.

422
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I would always want to put on

423
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: the strong front. I'm okay, don't worry about me, you know.

424
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 2: And as I started studying the law, I was able

425
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: to articulate to them some of the things that were wrong. Hey, listen,

426
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: my attorney didn't do this, or the prosecution did this.

427
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 2: And so when I was able to do that, I

428
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: guess they would see the hope emanating from me, and

429
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: so it would make them feel a little bit more

430
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 2: at ease. But there was times it wasn't easy. Prisons

431
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: in the eighties and early nineties was in Illinois were

432
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 2: particularly violent. State Bill was very violent. I mean murders

433
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: occurring there. There was a lot of things that, you know,

434
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 2: a lot of stabbings, a lot of assaults.

435
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: That's a question that I have for you because even

436
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: though your affiliation with a gang ended up getting you

437
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: on the radar of the police in a way, did

438
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: that affiliation protect you at all once you were in

439
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: the inside.

440
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had to be. I was definitely affiliated with

441
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: the gangs in there. But the downside of that is

442
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: that when other individuals would do, you know, do things like,

443
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: for example, somebody would gamble and then not be able

444
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: to pay. Now this individual is going to get into

445
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: a fighter. I have problems with another group, another person

446
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 2: from another group, which then involves everybody, and now here

447
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 2: it is we're fighting in there over somebody who should

448
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: have never been gambling because he didn't have the money

449
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 2: to pay in the first place. At some point in

450
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 2: the mid nineties, I said, this isn't getting me anywhere.

451
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: You know, I was smart enough to know that this

452
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: behavior is viewed as a negative, and I didn't want

453
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: to be in that light. And so I'm no longer.

454
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a part of it, no

455
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 2: long no more. I'm sure people looked at me like

456
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 2: he's flaking out, he's he can't handle it, But I

457
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: didn't care. I think that was one of the best

458
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: choices in my life. That happened around ninety six. And yeah,

459
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 2: I mean, well.

460
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: You know what, it's maturity too, But you were doing

461
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: what you needed to do to survive through your younger twenties.

462
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: How long did you and your girlfriend stay together?

463
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: We were probably together for the first ten years of

464
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: my incarceration, and in retrospect, I look at it. We're

465
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: arguing about really simple things like how come you to

466
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 2: pick up my phone call? Where were you at? You know,

467
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 2: Accusations that she might be cheating on me, and those

468
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: type of things eventually deteriorated us and she wound up

469
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 2: having a relationship with someone else. But she would period

470
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 2: I'm in and out of my life over my incarceration,

471
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: and in the end for the last like you know,

472
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 2: seven years, I would say she was there for me.

473
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: But yeah, it makes it easier to have a love

474
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: interest in prison, knowing that somebody cares about you. I

475
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 2: never really doubted the fact that she didn't have feelings

476
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: for me or her loved me.

477
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: It's hard to maintain a relationship exactly.

478
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: The physical absence is hard.

479
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, you began spending a chunk of your

480
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: time in the law library.

481
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: Well. As I became more and more proficient in the

482
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: tenants and the operation of the law procedures, etc. I

483
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: began to have success winning particularly at first just sensed

484
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 2: reductions for a lot of individuals, and eventually I wont

485
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: some new trials. I began to get more new trials,

486
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: more sentence reductions, and so I was also doing civil complaints.

487
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: Guys would eventually went on that.

488
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: So you became what they call a jail house lawyer.

489
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I never did particularly like that term. I like

490
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 2: to call myself a prisoner advocate, but yeah, that's definitely

491
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: what that was termed.

492
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: But I think that's so admirable.

493
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: Jimmy.

494
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: What was the turning point for you? Because I can't

495
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: imagine the anger and the frustration your life's been taken

496
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: away from you and decades at this point, where did

497
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: you turn that into I'm going to figure out enough

498
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: to help not only myself, but to help other people.

499
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 2: My thought process was this that if I could be

500
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: proficient or do adequate work for other individuals, it would

501
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: just make me a better litigator and I could hone

502
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: my skills that way work it through others. Again, looking back,

503
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: my early attempts was by trial and error, and I'm

504
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,719
Speaker 2: a bit of a perfectionist, I will admit that, and

505
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: so I said I could do this. But I always

506
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,239
Speaker 2: kept education at the forefront. I was always involved in

507
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: some type of classes or some type of program, and

508
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: a lot of it sometimes with self taught. I would

509
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: just bother to use the materials there with the law library.

510
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: So now we're getting to the point where you crossed

511
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: paths with our other wonderful esteemed guests. Robert, we've talked

512
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: about this. I'm not gonna dive too heavily into the specifics,

513
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: but in a nutshell, you and a co defendant were

514
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: convicted in nineteen ninety five of a double homicide the

515
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: year before, and at the time you were a young father,

516
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: working long hours and attending night school, and when you

517
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: were rested, you had no previous convictions. You were twenty

518
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: when you were convicted, which is something that you two

519
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: gentlemen share in common. And the case against you rested

520
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: on eyewitness reports obtained by a rather notorious now retired

521
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: Chicago police detective named Rinaldo Guervera. He's since come under

522
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: fire over allegations he coerced witnesses and framed innocent people

523
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: in dozens of other investigations. But you two are in prison.

524
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: You're both wrongfully convicted. Take me to the first moment

525
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: you're has crossed, and Robert, why don't you tell me

526
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: about meeting mister Soto for the first time.

527
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: Jimmy Soto. I heard of him.

528
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 4: You know his name is under like a legend in

529
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 4: prison basically because everybody know who he was. Everybody knows

530
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 4: all the work he did and how he helped a

531
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 4: lot of people. So I knew of him before I

532
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 4: ever met him. So he was in state Ville, he

533
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 4: didn't getting trampied to Minar. When he got to Thenar,

534
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 4: you know, believe or not, everybody was like static because

535
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 4: this guy who helped a lot of people is now

536
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 4: in Minar. So everybody wanted to reach out to him,

537
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 4: contact him, some type of way to get his assistant something,

538
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 4: because he a type of prison you know, his reputation

539
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 4: receives him as far as he's an up, upstanding guy.

540
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: So you arrived at Minard with a fan club in place,

541
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: Yes he did.

542
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 4: He's really shy about that, I guess, but this is

543
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 4: who he is. This is reputation.

544
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: Then do you remember the first time you met him?

545
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 4: Yes, I was in the same set house as he

546
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 4: was Soft Flowers in Minar. He was on two, I

547
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 4: was on four and I think his SETI was in

548
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 4: up going home or something like that.

549
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, he got parole, Yeah, he.

550
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 4: Got parole and he was looking for the sally And

551
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 4: one of the gadded workers asked me what your life is,

552
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 4: Jimmie Soler SELLI.

553
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: I was like, hell, yeah, why wouldn't that be?

554
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 4: So they end up moving me to his cell at

555
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: the time, he was in the yard. So I'm gonna

556
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 4: sell by myself. I got my property in there, I

557
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 4: got situated, and when he came in to cell, I

558
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 4: went to induce myself my name is you know with

559
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 4: Berta Amovar.

560
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: He like, I know who you are? Ready? Like how

561
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 3: you know me already? How the hell you know who

562
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 3: I am? Said? I know your uncle.

563
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 4: I was a lot with your uncle in Stateville, and

564
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 4: hesld me everything about your case, everything bout you, And

565
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 4: I was like, whoa.

566
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:49,719
Speaker 3: I was surprised.

567
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: I loved the nicknamed Sally for sale made. It's very

568
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: much an Illinois thing too. I've never met anybody who

569
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: spent time in Illinois who didn't use selly. But how

570
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: does that impact on a day to day if you've

571
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: got a good cell mate or a bad cellmate? Because

572
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: just describe the space that you two were sharing.

573
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 4: Oh my god, to sell like what how big was?

574
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 4: This was a spall sl six by nine, six by nine,

575
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 4: bumpits and sinking Tobb in the back of the room.

576
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 4: Real small compact cell. And as far as Sally's, it

577
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 4: make a big difference. You've got a good SETI or

578
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 4: a bad seting. It can you know, it can make

579
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 4: your time hard or easy. And so we do get

580
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 4: a good seting. You want to keep them far long

581
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 4: as you can.

582
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: So you guys were seal mates for four years?

583
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 3: About four three years?

584
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, more likely? All right?

585
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: So what made you guys good sale mates?

586
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 3: We just jail real quickly.

587
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 4: I mean, so you walk in the cell, you you

588
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 4: could tell you right away by the first couple of

589
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 4: second is you two will get along with that right

590
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 4: there and then. And we never had no arguments. We

591
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 4: never had no disagreement. We just jail. We cooked together,

592
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 4: we ate together. We had common ground as far as

593
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 4: our cases go. I look at to him like a

594
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 4: big brother, like a father figure. I mean he showed

595
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 4: me and taught me a little about the law and

596
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 4: just the case we did separated. He basically taught me

597
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 4: what I wrote that note, so what I need to

598
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 4: do just case get separated, And that's way I know

599
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: what to do with my legal stuff. He became family,

600
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 4: you know, because being at cell like twenty three to one,

601
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,959
Speaker 4: most of the time, you know, the cell is so small.

602
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 4: You get you know, there's nothing to do but top

603
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 4: and you know each other backgrounds, family stuff, so it

604
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 4: got real personal. He probably know me better than my

605
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 4: own family. To be honest with.

606
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: You, I can imagine that any bad character trait the

607
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: other person has is like magnified, you know, put on

608
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: volume ten. Absolutely so neither one of you had annoying

609
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: habits that bothered the other one.

610
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: Come on, I mean he came in, he didn't have

611
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: a lot of hair on his face, but he would

612
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: take a long time to shave. In fact, he probably

613
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: won't admit this, but one of the things I did

614
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: do was Robert got locked up fairly young too, and

615
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: I would later learn that his father wasn't in his

616
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: life when he came into purbity. When his hair is

617
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: coming in, so Robert was shaving against the grain, and

618
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: I would tell him, you got to go with the

619
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: grain in order not to have irritation, because sometimes he

620
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: would have it. Roberts has very sensitive skin, and so

621
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: I would tell him you got to go with it, so,

622
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: you know, to show him how to shave.

623
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: I love that you taught him how to shave correctly.

624
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: No more razor, the right way to she knew how

625
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: to shave right.

626
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 1: And Robert Jimmy didn't do anything that that ever got

627
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: on your nerves.

628
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 2: I mean it was now and then he would play

629
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 2: some music a bit loud when I was doing legal work,

630
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 2: but I would just with my own headphones on the

631
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: list to my own music, you know. I mean, there

632
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: was ways in which we could avoid being in each

633
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 2: other's space. We did eventually get separated, and I would

634
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: eventually wind up going to another unit, North one, and

635
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: he remained in the South House.

636
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 4: But due at the time though, he was able to

637
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 4: still stay able to communicate with Yeah. Yes, and the

638
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 4: way we did that we wrote kites and ky started

639
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 4: just like letters basically keep him up today, what's going

640
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 4: on with my family? Was going on my case and

641
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 4: vice versa or sometimes and we meet up at church

642
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 4: and we talk about certain things and stuff like that

643
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 4: at church.

644
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: So, you guys, it very much sounds like Jimmy, you

645
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: took Robert under your way.

646
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: Yes he did well, Yeah, I mean, but it was reciprocal.

647
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: It wasn't all that stad. He would look out for me,

648
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: make sure I was straight. You need anything, if you

649
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: need something, let me know. You know. So there was

650
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: times that one unit might go on lockdown. The other

651
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: wooden man, you know, send me some summer sausages and

652
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: send me this. He would gladly send it. Tuna. I

653
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 2: love tuna, so he would send me tune.

654
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 3: He's a big It was the same way.

655
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: If he needed something, I would look out for him.

656
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: But not just that.

657
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 4: Jimmy fortunately be across in crosserted for Solan that he

658
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 4: knows a lot of people he got connect and sue.

659
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 4: As far as politics and stuff like that, he can't

660
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 4: taught me at that politics game. In prison, you know,

661
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 4: have to govern around things also, and like I usually

662
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 4: get what onions, tomatoes, you know, eased to buy them

663
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 4: off the gay green peppers, you know, ice cream, ice

664
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 4: cream suits get ice cream, you know.

665
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 1: So there were ways you could maneuver better, better food choices.

666
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been locked up longer. So going to Minard,

667
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: I knew a lot of individuals that were down there already.

668
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: I had done legal work for some of them. They

669
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 2: were so glad to see me, they wanted to send

670
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: me stuff. I would never tell somebody give me, you know,

671
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 2: expert doing work. Why you know, you get it you

672
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: know this for that, but they would gladly say the

673
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 2: same thing. Robert would say, are you okay? So there

674
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: was a lot of people would often has to be

675
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: you need something, I'm over in the kitchen. I need

676
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: someone over here while I get some ice cream. Mode.

677
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: So that kind of support must be so important just

678
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: in terms of your emotional and mental state.

679
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 3: Mental state, Yeah, absolutely, But.

680
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: How did you guys? Do you remember any time, particularly

681
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: for the one another, where you guys hit a tough

682
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 1: patch where you showed up for the other person.

683
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: For him, I understood, you know, he was away from

684
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: his daughter, so she was going up, or she would

685
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: the family would set a visit and were able to come,

686
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: and vice versa. My family would set a visit, they

687
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 2: wouldn't come, so we would pick each other up. You

688
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,479
Speaker 2: are right, or you know, we'd make a special meal,

689
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: or he did most of the cooking, to be honest,

690
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: because I'm not a very good chef. But yeah, he

691
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 2: made a good piece of puff. I'll tell you that

692
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 2: I caught it hot pockets. Yeah, well it's a piece

693
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 2: of puff. But anyway, No, the thing is that you know,

694
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: if you're really in there with somebody like this, in

695
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 2: a small space, you could pick up on the energies

696
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: and sometimes just not talking to somebody isn't enough. Just

697
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 2: give them their space because they're in their thoughts and

698
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: I would do that or he would do that for me,

699
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 2: and we would know not to bother the other person.

700
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 2: So it's just that type of sense makes it much

701
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: more companion.

702
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 4: Also also just also for like the birthdays, Christmas and

703
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 4: stuff like that, because we are so far. The Menar

704
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 4: is like six to eight hours for the city, so

705
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 4: to get visits and stuffing that is very hard. My family,

706
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 4: I didn't see my fan for a while. You know,

707
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 4: they come for first to once every three months, once

708
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 4: every six months, once a year. They went so once

709
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 4: every three years. Then it's just you know it away.

710
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: Again it's that passing of time. And so so you know, Robert,

711
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: you were in there for over two decades and then

712
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen life changed for you big time. You're

713
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You can

714
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts

715
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: one week early and adfree by subscribing to Lava for

716
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. So when you found out

717
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: you were getting out. How did you tell Jimmy? Do

718
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 1: you remember?

719
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 3: Well?

720
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 4: I was a menar for I think about twenty one years,

721
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 4: twenty one and a half years, and during my twenty

722
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 4: first year, they asked.

723
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: Me, I want to go to Gailsburg. I'm like, sure,

724
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: no problem, why not?

725
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 4: But the thing is, I tell him about the news

726
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 4: that you know, there's some stuff going on in my case,

727
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 4: but I really know what's going to happen. I was

728
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 4: in Gailsburg for about two to three weeks and that's

729
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 4: when I get the phone call from my lawyer talking about, man,

730
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 4: I got some good.

731
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: News for you. You basically coming home tomorrow Friday.

732
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 1: Wow.

733
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 3: I'm like, it was just so so real. I just couldn't.

734
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 4: I was just shocked, you know, because you think about

735
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 4: this day, you dream about that day, you just already

736
00:39:58,640 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 4: fantasy about it.

737
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 3: When it do come, you're just like, is it really happening?

738
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 3: Is it a dream?

739
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 4: I was a static and coming home of course, being

740
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 4: reunited with my daughter and my family. You know.

741
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: So Robert take me to after you get out, how

742
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: does your friendship change? How do you continue staying in

743
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: touch and do you have almost survivors guilt. Do you

744
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: feel that pressure to get Jimmy out?

745
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 4: The thing is Jimmy and I just Jimmy, but all

746
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 4: the friends I made with in prison, they become family,

747
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 4: you know. I didn't feel with Morris, but I feel

748
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 4: like I need to do something to help the guys

749
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 4: out any way I can. So basically through you know,

750
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 4: I going to courts, supporting the other guys, shawing my support,

751
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 4: my lawyer Jennifer Byji, who also know other lawyers. Eventually,

752
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 4: you know, I know these other lawyers basically networking, and

753
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 4: like I tried to help other guys when I can

754
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 4: so far as like with Jimmy. Jimmy asked me, do

755
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 4: I know a lawyer named Lauren. So at the time like, yeah,

756
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 4: I know Lauren.

757
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 3: She's my girl. She's cool with me. Were tight. He's like, man,

758
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 3: I need you to talk to her. See she could

759
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 3: take my case. I got you, I got you.

760
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 4: So I end up talking to Lauren, and so Lauren, yeah,

761
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,879
Speaker 4: you know. And my friend Jimmie, he's a good guy.

762
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 4: They did him wrong, and I wondered if you look

763
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 4: at his case, and she's like, sure, send it to me.

764
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 4: So I sent her in the paperwork and she reviewed

765
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 4: it and she said, oh my gosh, she's this case.

766
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 3: They did him wrong.

767
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so she started looking into it. She talked

768
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 4: to her boss like yes, and she got into it too.

769
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 4: So anyway back to Jimmy. Jimmy called me, asked me,

770
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 4: you talked to Lauren. I said, yeah, I talked to

771
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 4: Lauren Man. She says she got to She's like, wait

772
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 4: a minute. I talked to Lauren and she said, you

773
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 4: didn't talk to her.

774
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 3: I said, what do you mean. So there's two Laurence. Yes,

775
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 3: I didn't know.

776
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: Yes, there is a Lauren at the Illinois Innocence Project,

777
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: Lauren Keseberg. And then there's the Lauren that we are

778
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: speaking of, who is Lauren Meerskoff Mueller. And she's with

779
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: the Exoneration Project at the University of Chicago Law School,

780
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: and she joined on Jimmy's team filing a clemency petition,

781
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: and from.

782
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 3: There he basically ended again in the Dream Team.

783
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: Lauren gets involved in twenty twenty and in May of

784
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, Governor Pritzker commutes your sentence Jimmy to

785
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: parole eligible, and then December fourteenth, twenty twenty three, the

786
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: Cook County States Attorney's Office agreed that the charges against you, Jemmy,

787
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: and your cousin David should be vacated, and the charges

788
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 1: were dismissed. Robert, what was your feeling leading up to

789
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 1: that date?

790
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 4: So the day before I find out that he was

791
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 4: coming home, I was just like ecstatic, this is finding's

792
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 4: going to happen. After forty two years, finally Jimmy going

793
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 4: to have his day. He helped so many other people

794
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 4: come home, and now he's coming home.

795
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 3: And I was in tears. I did lie.

796
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 4: I was just so happy for him, just running up

797
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 4: and down my apartment like, yes, this is happening.

798
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: So by the time Jimmy, you and David got out,

799
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: you had spent forty two years.

800
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: Well, no, I spent forty two years, two months, and

801
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: two days.

802
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: That's the longest wrong incarceration in Illinois history. If I'm

803
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: not mistaken, No, you're right.

804
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: That is the National Registry based Michigan officially said we

805
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 2: were the longest serving axuneries in Illinois state history. It's

806
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 2: not a badge of honor, it's a title I would

807
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 2: gladly relinquish. I would not wish that on anybody, but Unfortunately,

808
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 2: that's what it is.

809
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 4: And this is the club we're in, you know, Unfortunately,

810
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 4: this is a club that nobody want to be in,

811
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 4: but we are.

812
00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 3: You know.

813
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 1: Now, I've seen the video of when you got out, Jimmy,

814
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: but tell me the moment you remember catching one another's

815
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: eye when you walked out.

816
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: Okay, I get out from the gatehouse, which is the

817
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: first entry point when you're going into Stateville Prison. So

818
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: now I'm exiting it. I changed my clothes and I

819
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 2: jump in a vehicle and one of the officers say,

820
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: see that those lights down there at the end of

821
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: this little road. I said, yeah, he said, that's all

822
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 2: for you. He said, the press is down there to

823
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 2: talk to you. So we drive down there and I

824
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 2: get out the car and I see Robert. I see

825
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 2: Robert dressed and a camouflage outfit jacket and pants, and

826
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: I see him with his glasses and he got a

827
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: grin from ear to ear, and so yeah, I mean

828
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 2: the first ones I hug, naturally is one of my

829
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: other sisters. And then after that, I think Robert was

830
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 2: the second one that came. He hugged me, and they're like, man,

831
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 2: you know, we just hugged it. Was an emotional moment.

832
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 4: Yeah we did it, you know, and food circle, and

833
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 4: I was so happy for him. This squeeze, I'm so tight,

834
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 4: and now we're home.

835
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: You know, it was very surreal to be on the

836
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: other side of the wall with somebody that you had

837
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: forged a bond of relationship with and to see that

838
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 2: our past life's journey had crossed and now it was

839
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,919
Speaker 2: once again coming to cross, but in a good way

840
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: where you know, I was now a free person, free man.

841
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys share such a strong bond, and

842
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: you have so much in common and have well over

843
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: a combined sixty years spent in prison for crimes you

844
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: did not commit. What does it mean to have one

845
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: another in your lives in these big transitions.

846
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 2: Well, to me, I could tell you it means a lot. Because,

847
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: of course, he was released years before me. He was

848
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 2: released in twenty seventeen, and here I am. I'm released

849
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, so there's a you know, that gap.

850
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: But uh, to know that he was able to transition

851
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 2: into quote unquote uh the real world before me, he

852
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 2: already learned how to navigate it, and so he was

853
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 2: very helpful in telling me the things I need to do,

854
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: for example, going to get my state of Illinois, I

855
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 2: d getting me used to going to drive a car again.

856
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 3: A little bit with the phone too, But.

857
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, he helped me and Daddy and I thank him.

858
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: I thank God to have him there to be able

859
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 2: to tell me, you know, some of these things and

860
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: how to navigate them myself.

861
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 4: The thing is, though, I feel like, you know, he

862
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 4: was able to help me, but then when I was incarcerated,

863
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 4: now not able to pay it for and help him

864
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 4: out regard to how smart it is. It just feels

865
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 4: so good to help him in any way I can.

866
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 4: And he's my brother. I'll do anything for him. At

867
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 4: the end of the day.

868
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,439
Speaker 3: That's my brother, and thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. That's my little that's my little son. Now

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Speaker 2: that's my brother.

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Speaker 1: While he was incarcerated, Jimmy Soto earned a Bachelors of

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00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: Science and Sociology from the Northwestern Prison Education Program. He

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00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: graduated magna cum Laudie and is now studying for his

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00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: LSAT to go to law school. I know he is

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00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: absolutely going to ace that test. He is also part

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00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: of Parole Illinois, an organization fighting to bring back parole

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00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: to a state that has effectively had no parole program

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00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: since nineteen seventy eight. To support James in his continuing

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00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: fight for justice and in his goal for earning a

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00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: law degree, you can donate to his gofund me, which

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Speaker 1: is linked at the end in the episode description. Thank

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00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 1: you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.

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00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the

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00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler,

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00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea,

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00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited

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Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer

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00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 1: is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Bial, research by

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Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with

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00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by

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00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social

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Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.

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00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren

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Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for

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Speaker 1: Good podcasts in association with signal Company Number one