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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told your protective of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Today we have an amazing guest on the show. She's

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Speaker 2: a game developer and the creative director of Stumbling Cat Studios,

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Speaker 2: which she created.

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Speaker 3: Hello. She was also Forbes a thirty Under thirty and

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I have to give that shout out

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Speaker 2: immediately because I'm like, yeah, there she goes.

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Speaker 3: It is a Renee Gittens. Yay, welcome, Renee.

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Speaker 4: Thank you really glad to be here.

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Speaker 3: Can you introduce yourself to our listeners?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, Hi everyone. My name is Renee Giittens. I am

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Speaker 5: a game developer. I currently run my own studio, Stumbling Cat,

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Speaker 5: and we just launched Potions, a curious tale, an adventure

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Speaker 5: crafting game. But I've done a lot in the games industry.

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Speaker 5: I volunteer for the IGDA and was previously the executive director,

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Speaker 5: and our missionists to support and empower game developers around

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Speaker 5: the world and achieving fulfilling and sustainable careers. I create

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Speaker 5: a lot of free educational content on TikTok and YouTube

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Speaker 5: to uplift the next generation of game developers, and prior

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Speaker 5: to my role leading Just my studio. I was the

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Speaker 5: general manager of Phoenix Labs Vancouver, creators of Dauntless and

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Speaker 5: Fay Farm.

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Speaker 6: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you have a lot under your belt.

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Speaker 2: When I was looking through just your LinkedIn, I was like, damn,

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Speaker 2: Like this is her industry. She has been creating since

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Speaker 2: way back when you went into school for something similar

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Speaker 2: to this, obviously, Can you kind of tell us how

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Speaker 2: you got into this world?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: You know, Actually I got in a lot later than

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Speaker 5: many of my peers because I didn't know I could

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Speaker 5: be a game developer growing up, and despite being absolutely

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Speaker 5: in love with math, I wasn't introduced to programming until college,

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Speaker 5: so I started a little late.

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Speaker 4: So I actually went.

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Speaker 5: To school to get an engineering degree with a focus

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Speaker 5: in mechanical engineering to become a biomechanical engineer with focus

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Speaker 5: in prosthetics. And I started my career in biotech, working

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Speaker 5: on on skin sensors for various companies. But it was

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Speaker 5: my senior of college that I learned I could be

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Speaker 5: a game developer. And I've been a gamer my whole life,

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Speaker 5: very passionately. I started playing video games at maybe four

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Speaker 5: or five, and unexpectedly it was mostly first person shooters,

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Speaker 5: at first because that's what my father was playing. So

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Speaker 5: like Wolfenstein three D, Duke Nukem three D, and then

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Speaker 5: Pokemon Yellow were my first four games. So I had

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Speaker 5: a bit of an aggressive start to video games, but

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Speaker 5: I truly fell in love with them and ended up

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Speaker 5: making cosplay, participating in forums, writing guides. But like I said,

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Speaker 5: it was only my senior of college that I met

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Speaker 5: game developer and went I can make games.

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Speaker 4: Wait, game developers are like me.

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Speaker 5: I can be a game developer, and so I decided

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Speaker 5: to work on changing my career trajectory from.

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Speaker 3: There in your senior year, my senior year of college.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was a little.

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Speaker 3: Late never obviously, And honestly.

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Speaker 5: That's one of the reasons why I'm so bigin to adcacy,

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Speaker 5: Because if I had known it was a career path

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Speaker 5: for me and been provided the tools to pursue it earlier,

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Speaker 5: like I would have been making games as a kid,

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Speaker 5: you know, a teenager, or even before if I could.

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Speaker 5: And so I want to ensure that no one else

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Speaker 5: is deprived from that opportunity of exploring a really great

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Speaker 5: potential dream for them just because they aren't aware or

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Speaker 5: don't feel like they're welcome or anything like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and so I worked really hard end up breaking into

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Speaker 5: the games industry through multiple paths, and I am where

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Speaker 5: I am today.

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Speaker 7: That is amazing. And also, you are pointing to a problem.

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Speaker 1: Every time we talk about the gaming industry, we kind

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Speaker 1: of have to talk about that of you know, women

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Speaker 1: not seeing women, marginalized people not seeing marginalized people in

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Speaker 1: that industry, and that is something that you've been outspoken

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Speaker 1: about and that you're passionate about. Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: the experiences that you have had in the gaming industry

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Speaker 1: as part of that, and then also just maybe changes

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Speaker 1: that you've seen in it in the past few years.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, So I am very lucky that I haven't experienced

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Speaker 5: much direct harassment at least from my game industry peers

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Speaker 5: and in general. Until very recently, I hadn't experienced much

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Speaker 5: harassment within the games industry and my career at all

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Speaker 5: as a woman who played video games, as a girl

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Speaker 5: who liked first person shooters, I can tell you I

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Speaker 5: was very excited to play counter Strike for the first time,

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Speaker 5: and the first time I spoke up in chat as

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Speaker 5: a twelve thirteen year old girl playing counter Strike, I

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Speaker 5: decided I didn't like online first person shooters, because that

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Speaker 5: was just, oh, that was toxic, and you know, with

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Speaker 5: my upbringing, like I wasn't a bad first person shooter player,

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Speaker 5: but it was just the sound of my voice was

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Speaker 5: enough to get really vile harassment. And I think that

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Speaker 5: that is a point where a lot of people stop

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Speaker 5: playing games, and I can't blame them for that.

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Speaker 4: It is unpleasant.

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Speaker 5: Throughout my history as a gamer and fan, I certainly

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Speaker 5: have received all sorts of weird death threats and stocking

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Speaker 5: and harassment, particularly when I got into cosplaying.

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Speaker 4: That it was really big there.

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Speaker 5: But when I started my game industry career, I found

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Speaker 5: the games industry in general to be very welcoming. Especially

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Speaker 5: indie developers are just so kind and willing to share knowledge.

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Speaker 5: The games industry might be somewhat competitive, but the way

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Speaker 5: that game developers treat each other is not in a

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Speaker 5: competitive manner. It's like we're all in this together, and

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Speaker 5: so knowledge sharing and support is all really frequent.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 5: I've definitely had a few uncomfortable situations in networking events,

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Speaker 5: and more commonly, I've found that people make a lot

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Speaker 5: of assumptions based on my gender. Originally, before I became

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Speaker 5: well known in the games industry. If I was standing

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Speaker 5: next to a male near my age, I was assumed

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Speaker 5: to be a girlfriend, not a game developer, and was

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Speaker 5: like ignored in the rounds of introductions that happened a

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Speaker 5: few times. I'm a very sort of person, so I

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Speaker 5: made sure I was introduced anyway, even if I was skipped.

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Speaker 5: But again, that's one of those things where you know,

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Speaker 5: death by a thousand cuts. If you're dealing with that

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Speaker 5: while breaking into the industry, it can be really rough.

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Speaker 5: And then I've had situations where I've talked about my work,

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Speaker 5: my teams, you know, for stumbling cat on. You know,

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Speaker 5: I've said like, oh, this person's helping with art, this

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Speaker 5: person's helping with audio, this person does environment art, and

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Speaker 5: then I do everything else and the person's next question was, well,

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Speaker 5: then who does the programming.

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Speaker 7: That's me, Like that's part of everything else.

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Speaker 4: Yay.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 5: Definitely get exhumed to be an artist and such when

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Speaker 5: people meet me as well, And obviously it's it's just

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Speaker 5: their their biases, you know, they are subconscious biases, so.

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Speaker 2: Right, and when you do tell them, yeah, it's made,

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Speaker 2: do you usually get the oh wow? Or is it like, oh, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: like obvious.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I think it's a lot of times people realize in

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Speaker 5: that moment that they had made a really poor assumption.

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Speaker 5: You know, they're just like, oh, y, yes, that's on me. Like,

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Speaker 5: of course, not everyone is self reflective, but for the

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Speaker 5: most part, in those situations, I've found people to be

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Speaker 5: a little embarrassed when they realize their mistake, right.

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Speaker 6: I would hope.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean at least very much acknowledged, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was that was an unconscious bias that I have.

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Speaker 2: I need to learn that, which is a great lesson

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Speaker 2: at your expense. Sorry. You know, within the gaming industry

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Speaker 2: in general, especially when it comes to different especially larger

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Speaker 2: corporations that we've seen, there's been a lot of shakeups

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Speaker 2: me too. Movement has hit up some of the bigger

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Speaker 2: corporations because of this. Have you seen changes in the industry,

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Speaker 2: whether good or bad?

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, I think the games industry is continuing to change

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Speaker 5: for the better, and it still has a long way

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Speaker 5: to go. With the rise of online digital games distribution,

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Speaker 5: you know, through Steam, the Epics Store, and even just

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Speaker 5: like through platforms, through online stores that are hosted by

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Speaker 5: Sony and Microsoft and Nintendo, it has really allowed for

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Speaker 5: a lot of smaller teams to rise up and for

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Speaker 5: there to be less weight in publishers and purely big studios,

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Speaker 5: and that has had both pros and cons. It has

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Speaker 5: allowed for like a shakeup and a broadening of the

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Speaker 5: people joining the games industry, and occasionally it has allowed

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Speaker 5: for teams where it's just a bunch of friends together

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Speaker 5: to suddenly explode in popularity and then turns out they're

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Speaker 5: like buddy buddy. Bro culture does not expand well to

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Speaker 5: a four hundred or four thousand person company, and that

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Speaker 5: can cause like some toxicity there. So the me too

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Speaker 5: movement and other advocacy efforts to call out these issues

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Speaker 5: certainly has caused a lot of intentional addressing of them.

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Speaker 5: So there are more knowledge amongst HR teams, amongst management,

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Speaker 5: there are more policies, but it's not perfect.

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Speaker 4: It's still got always to go.

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Speaker 5: And while the number of women identifying people are increasing

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Speaker 5: within the games industry, it's still a slow pace because

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Speaker 5: it's not just the games industry that has issues, right

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Speaker 5: Like STEMS still has issues about being welcoming to women,

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Speaker 5: and education does. Like my second grade teacher told me,

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Speaker 5: I didn't need to know more math because I.

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Speaker 4: Was a girl.

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Speaker 5: Beyond long division. It turns out long divisions cut off.

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Speaker 7: I guess I had to happen to me. But it

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Speaker 7: was in high school.

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Speaker 2: Right like second grade, excelling to be like, no, we

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Speaker 2: have to stop her. Now, she's going to be a

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Speaker 2: dangerous woman and she knows math like Terminator. But maybe

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Speaker 2: they were from the future. They're like, she's going to

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Speaker 2: own a company. We got to stop that. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I was talking about your childhood, and you kind of

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Speaker 2: mentioned the fact that as a young gamer, at first

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Speaker 2: the love was great and then you got into the

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Speaker 2: community and you're like, oh, oh oh, they're not as welcoming.

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Speaker 2: And obviously this has kind of formed how you run

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Speaker 2: your company as well as how you led as an

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Speaker 2: executive director. Have you seen good, hopefully good or worse?

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Speaker 2: I guess changes when it comes to inclusion, for whether

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Speaker 2: it's for gamers or whether it's for developers like both.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I certainly have seen more inclusion, more

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Speaker 5: games with wider target audiences and not ones that are

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Speaker 5: reductive towards those audiences like that.

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Speaker 4: That's often a concern of mine.

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Speaker 5: I've also seen varying levels of toxicity I think it

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Speaker 5: sort of comes and goes in waves. I think the

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Speaker 5: things overall have been getting better, but I feel like

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Speaker 5: the pandemic and the rise of more anonymous focused engagement

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Speaker 5: platforms have caused another search of toxicity. I've seen a

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Speaker 5: lot more toxic behavior these last few years than I

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Speaker 5: think the few years before the pandemic. Now, admittedly I've

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Speaker 5: been a direct target of some of this, so I

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Speaker 5: could be biased there, but I've heard a lot of

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Speaker 5: people say in general that they feel like empathy has

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Speaker 5: gone down post pandemic and that there's there's just less

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Speaker 5: friendliness amongst society, and I certainly think that's true online.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's that question of like I wonder

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Speaker 2: if the people are having more time online and realize

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Speaker 2: that that trolling people is entertaining for them, and so

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Speaker 2: they've gone on full force because that's what they did

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Speaker 2: throughout the pandemic and it's just gotten worse, which you

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Speaker 2: would think they would stop, but they don't.

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Speaker 6: Ever. That's a sidelog.

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Speaker 2: But because we want to talk about all of that too,

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Speaker 2: Because you have developed a game hello, because I'm playing it,

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Speaker 2: but you had a lot of like bumps in the

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Speaker 2: road throughout, Can you kind of tell us first about

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Speaker 2: your game, the game, and so could lay the process

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Speaker 2: in developing this game?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 5: Potions a Curious Tale is an adventure crafting game. You

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Speaker 5: play as a young witch named Luna who's recently discovered

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Speaker 5: her ability to brew magical potions, and she can use

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Speaker 5: these potions as spells to solve puzzles and battle monsters

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Speaker 5: and overcome other obstacles on her quest to become a

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Speaker 5: potion's master. But you find that is your greatest weapon

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Speaker 5: and combat is not always the answer, and the world

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Speaker 5: itself is inspired by fairy tales and folklore from cultures

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Speaker 5: all across the globe. When I first came up with

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Speaker 5: the concept for Potions, it was because I wanted to

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Speaker 5: explore game design war but my inspiration was frustration around

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Speaker 5: games treating heroes as as slaughtering creatures. I feel like,

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Speaker 5: as a hero in so many games, it's like if

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Speaker 5: you slaughter every small force critter you see, it is

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Speaker 5: ultimately beneficial, And that just never felt heroic to me, Like, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 5: if you need a bunny fur, like yeah, the slaughter

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Speaker 5: of the bunny, But if you don't, it shouldn't give

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Speaker 5: you like golden experience, Like, there shouldn't just be this

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Speaker 5: reason to like slaughter everything that you come across, and

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Speaker 5: I wanted to figure out a way to temper that,

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Speaker 5: and that's when I came up with the concept of

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Speaker 5: potions as the engagement mechanism. You know, in potions, you

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Speaker 5: can be actively aggressive only with potents, like using potions

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Speaker 5: as spells. You can chase monsters into traps. You can

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Speaker 5: get monsters to fight each other without using potions. But

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Speaker 5: if you want to set something on fire, you got

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Speaker 5: to use a fire potion. And that causes sort of

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Speaker 5: a re source stress on the player because you know,

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Speaker 5: potions cost resources. You have to brew every potion you use,

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Speaker 5: and so it causes them to reconsider do I need

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Speaker 5: to kill this thing? Is this worth using one of

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Speaker 5: my potions? For I can only carry ten fire potions

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Speaker 5: at once. Should I use one of these fire potions

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Speaker 5: on this critter? Or should I avoid it until I

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Speaker 5: need something from it and go about and do other things.

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Speaker 5: And when I came up with this concept, it was

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Speaker 5: never intended to be a commercial product. It was just

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Speaker 5: intended to be a portfolio piece in the game's industry,

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Speaker 5: having a strong portfolio is really important for getting hired,

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Speaker 5: and so I just wanted to make this a little

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Speaker 5: sort of demo project for my portfolio. But the more

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Speaker 5: people I told about it, the more excited people seemed

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Speaker 5: to be. And when I ran into people at future events,

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Speaker 5: they would say, Hey, how is Potions going? Because that

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Speaker 5: was just sort of my default name for it, And

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Speaker 5: I ended up getting almost this fan following amongst game

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Speaker 5: developers for this concept because they all thought it was

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Speaker 5: really interesting. So at that point I decided to kickstart

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Speaker 5: the game and see if there was going to be

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Speaker 5: enough interest from the general public to make it commercially viable.

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Speaker 5: And it barely funded, like fifteen minutes left. So I

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Speaker 5: had this money, which was the bare minimum amount of

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Speaker 5: money I thought I needed to ship the game, and

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Speaker 5: I had to spend it all on like contracting out

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Speaker 5: art and audio. It's like the only thing I could

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Speaker 5: spend it on and physical kickstar rewards, and so I

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Speaker 5: was not able to quit my job and work full

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Speaker 5: time on Potions. I had to get side contracts and

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Speaker 5: other work. I actually was trying to consult and do

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Speaker 5: contracting for a long time before I realized the overhead

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Speaker 5: of consulting was just too much. It was just easier

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Speaker 5: to find full time jobs in the games industry and

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Speaker 5: work nights and weekends on post or mornings and weekends

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Speaker 5: was my preference. I'm a morning person, so morning brain

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Speaker 5: goes to creative work as much as possible.

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Speaker 2: I like it, And you know that makes click a

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Speaker 2: little bit about why I like this game because I

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Speaker 2: used to, Like I said, I told you before we

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Speaker 2: record it, I'm not the typical gamer, and I just

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Speaker 2: really got into playing games like I have become a

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Speaker 2: fan of cozy games and the such. I always play

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Speaker 2: phone games because I am definitely like add enough that

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Speaker 2: I need that distraction. So all about swiping. So coming

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Speaker 2: into this where you're like there's buttons and there's combinations

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Speaker 2: and there's things you got to do, it's like, oh no,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm going to do this. That's

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Speaker 2: the level. But the one thing I would do my

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Speaker 2: partner who was a gamer and loves it, was playing

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Speaker 2: Red Dead and that's one of the big things is

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Speaker 2: like killing all the animals, and I would actively root

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Speaker 2: for the animals to kill him.

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Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, I mean literally, I was like, I.

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Speaker 3: Hope that Barry, oh the Barry eat you good.

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Speaker 2: I'm a great partner in that same realm in the

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Speaker 2: Potion's game, I'm like, oh, I can just run away

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Speaker 2: from that rat. Okay, great, I'm just gonna run. I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna run this way. Oh yeah, that thing's trying to

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Speaker 2: get me bad. I don't have to take it a hit.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna run this way too. So I was like,

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Speaker 2: that makes a whole lot more sense and makes it

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Speaker 2: easier for me, so I don't have to do the

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Speaker 2: battle thing because again the combo is like I don't

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Speaker 2: where do I go?

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Speaker 3: Where do I go with this?

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Speaker 2: Instead of just oh, I can just go over there

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Speaker 2: and go with this mission and do this puzzle. I'll

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Speaker 2: do that. So I think for me that that makes

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Speaker 2: so much more sense of like, this is why I

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Speaker 2: enjoy this game so much, and the art is super cute,

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Speaker 2: thank you.

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Speaker 3: It is is super cute.

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Speaker 2: But all of that is like just clicking in my brains,

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Speaker 2: Like that makes it you purposely did that obviously.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I actually think that first time gamers occasionally have an

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Speaker 5: easier time with potions than people who've been playing video

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Speaker 5: games a lot. I feel like women are generally okay

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Speaker 5: with potions when they approach it. But it turns out

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Speaker 5: that a lot of the men that I've seen playtest,

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Speaker 5: they're like, ah, I have fire potion, ergo I should

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Speaker 5: burn everything I see, And then they'll run into like

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Speaker 5: running out of their potions, or they'll running into a

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Speaker 5: creature that you can't burn, or a creature that will

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Speaker 5: attack you and always when if you try to attack it,

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Speaker 5: And it's funny watching them come to the realization that, no,

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Speaker 5: you can't just murder everything to win this game. You

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Speaker 5: have to be a little bit more nuanced in your.

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Speaker 2: Approach, like you have to save the fire potion to

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Speaker 2: get past the haystack to get to that resource. I

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Speaker 2: was like, Oh, I get it. I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 2: Like being able to think it through is so much

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Speaker 2: more fun to me. Hope, I'm not insulting anybody. I

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Speaker 2: love the I love the battle.

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Speaker 4: Everyone can enjoy different types of games. But yeah, Potions

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Speaker 4: is certainly for a particular target audience, and it's resonated

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Speaker 4: well with them.

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Speaker 2: Right, And I guess again, like talking about why including

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Speaker 2: people who aren't your typical or what people would see

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Speaker 2: as a gamer, why is that something that you think

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Speaker 2: is important.

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Speaker 5: I think it's important because video games are just a

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Speaker 5: wonderful storytelling an immersive medium that everyone should be able

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Speaker 5: to enjoy, right Like, just like film and music, I

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Speaker 5: feel like video games.

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Speaker 4: Are pretty much on the same level as those.

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Speaker 5: And ensuring that there are games that are welcoming and

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Speaker 5: empowering for people, particularly people who don't often see themselves

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Speaker 5: in games, is important to me. And when I first

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Speaker 5: started creating Potions, I was just creating a game that

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Speaker 5: I wanted to play. I wasn't thinking as much about

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Speaker 5: a target audience, which is a terrible way to design

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Speaker 5: a game.

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Speaker 4: You're always supposed to be thinking about your target audience.

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Speaker 5: And I figured I was like, well, it's kind of

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Speaker 5: a Zelda like so it's going to have a similar

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Speaker 5: audience to Zelda, which it does. But when I was

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Speaker 5: dembling Potions one of the first times I first demoed

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Speaker 5: at packs and it was.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't say well received.

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Speaker 5: It was like some people are like, oh, that's cool,

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Speaker 5: I own nothing super exciting, Like nobody being like this

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Speaker 5: is the best game in the world. And then a

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Speaker 5: couple months later, there's an event here in Seattle called

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Speaker 5: geek Girl Con, which is a celebration of the female

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Speaker 5: Geek and I demoed it there. It was actually the

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Speaker 5: first video game to ever done a like GEK girl

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Speaker 5: Con because it only been tabletop games and board games

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Speaker 5: and my booth which just absolutely swarmed by all these

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Speaker 5: young girls because of course, it's like a twelve year

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Speaker 5: old witch is in a fairy tale setting, right, a

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Speaker 5: fairy tale fantasy setting. And the reactions that I had

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Speaker 5: from that group of fans caused me to rethink how

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Speaker 5: I was approaching the game, and honestly, thankfully I didn't

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Speaker 5: have to really change anything, but I made sure that

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Speaker 5: the game was for them because I had a little

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Speaker 5: like I had a girl who was like eight and

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Speaker 5: dressed up as a witch, and she just pointed at

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Speaker 5: the screen that was playing the trailer and said.

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Speaker 4: Look, mom, it's me. Oh.

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Speaker 5: And then I had another girl who was in second grade.

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Speaker 5: Her parents came up to me and they said, you know,

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Speaker 5: thank you so much for being here. Our daughter's in

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Speaker 5: second grade and she's getting bullied for liking Minecraft. So

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Speaker 5: it means because people are saying that video games are

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Speaker 5: for boys and that she shouldn't play at it as

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Speaker 5: a girl. So it means so much to her to

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Speaker 5: see a game here for her being made by someone

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Speaker 5: that she can relate to, and that that caused me

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Speaker 5: to really think about how I was writing the story

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Speaker 5: and how I was making the game because I want

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Speaker 5: I want an eight year old girl to play this

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Speaker 5: and be like, yeah, that is me, Like I can

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Speaker 5: solve my own problems. I don't have to be the strongest,

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Speaker 5: I don't have to be the most powerful, but with

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Speaker 5: my wit and my perseverance, my creativity, like I can

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Speaker 5: overcome these issues and save the world.

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Speaker 1: It is I love that about because I also add

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Speaker 1: a similar story to you. I grew up like from

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Speaker 1: four playing video games and two brothers, so that kind

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Speaker 1: of colored my experience. And I also got scared off

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Speaker 1: of video games from online video games when I was

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Speaker 1: like twelve. But as I've been working through this on

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Speaker 1: the show several several years ago, there was a a

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Speaker 1: museum exhibit that was just like games women have developed,

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Speaker 1: And of course the history is longer than anyone likes

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Speaker 1: to give credit to huge popular games by the way,

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Speaker 1: but it was really cool because so many of them.

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Speaker 1: I love when a video game like kind of understands

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Speaker 1: what you think a video game might be and doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It was like, no, it's not that because it has

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Speaker 1: so long been Let's defeat this villain.

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Speaker 7: Let's do the way forward? Is this way forward? And

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Speaker 7: I like when a video game comes out and it's

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Speaker 7: like what if it wasn't that though? What if it

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00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 7: was like a different thing? And so I think, like

437
00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 7: this is so important in terms of representation, but also

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Speaker 7: just creativity because I am one hundred with you and

439
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 7: like the storytelling aspect of it. We've done episodes about

440
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 7: like the health benefits of playing some video games, like

441
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 7: they are real world important things that it should be

442
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 7: that a young girl can say, Oh, I see that.

443
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 7: I like that. I want to play that. It's better

444
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 7: for everybody.

445
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: I don't know why, well I do know why people

446
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: get so upset about it. They're like, don't you want

447
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: more options or there than less?

448
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 4: Absolutely?

449
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: And I know like getting this game off it took

450
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: you like ten years I guess from like when you

451
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: were originally thinking this is just gonna be an idea

452
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 2: for my portfolio, to Okay, let's actually create this game.

453
00:24:59,200 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 3: Oh they want this.

454
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: Let's give this an empower young girls, which I know

455
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: you've made comments about wanting to do a story about

456
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 2: a coming of age for young girls and witchcraft obviously,

457
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 2: and maybe a cat because Helius is awesome.

458
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 3: Which, by the way, do I get more pets when

459
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 3: I keep going? Or is it just I just love

460
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 3: all the pets?

461
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: Sorry?

462
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 4: Too jealous? He wouldn't allow any other pets.

463
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 3: He's so pretty. I was like, oh, cool, okay, let's go.

464
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: But all of these things.

465
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 2: But I know with that there again, like when you're

466
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 2: beginning your launch, My introduction to your game as well

467
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: as to you was your TikTok video in which you

468
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: had concerns about the release in launch date, and I

469
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 2: know you made some headlines in different places, and honestly

470
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: it was like to me, I was like, yeah, this

471
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 2: is a very reasonable video. You worked ten years on

472
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: this project that you are in love with and then

473
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 2: things unexpected happened, And sure it may not have been

474
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: an attack. When it comes to big corporations versus indie games,

475
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: we know, we know, like there's a big bad.

476
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 3: Corporations are a big bad. We're just gonna say that.

477
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: We say that on our show in general, and idea

478
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 2: is that a lot of the things are not one

479
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: hundred percent. Again, we kind of talked about some of

480
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 2: the things that were happening at the beginning anyway.

481
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 3: But with that you got a lot of good support,

482
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 3: but backlash as well. What was your initial reaction to this?

483
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, yeah.

484
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 5: So to provide context for the audience, what happened was

485
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 5: I spent lots and lots of time in research picking

486
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 5: a launch date, and I chose to pick.

487
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 4: International Women's Day.

488
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 5: Technically in my time zone, it was the day before

489
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 5: International Women's Day because Japan is sixteen hours ahead, you know,

490
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 5: other places are ahead. And I researched that date to

491
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 5: ensure that there was no other great competing game launches.

492
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 4: None were listed in any of the.

493
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 5: Softwareys to to check that out, and that I was

494
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 5: going in with a really strong set of supporters, so

495
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 5: wish lists on Steam et cetera, and from my calculations,

496
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 5: I should have been on the Steam front page in

497
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 5: a new and trending for three or four days, which

498
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 5: is basically gets you one to two million impressions and

499
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 5: thousands of wish lists and hundreds to thousands of sales,

500
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 5: which for an indie developer is huge. Like that, that

501
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 5: is a make it or break it sort of thing.

502
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 5: And you know, I launched my game I was in

503
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 5: all sorts of celebration. You know, I launched Yay women

504
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 5: like gay list. This is empowering. And I actually stayed

505
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 5: away from looking at the sales numbers for a bit,

506
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 5: and then when I checked them, they were like thirty

507
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 5: percent of what I predicted with conservative.

508
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 4: Estimates, and I was crushed.

509
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 5: And I looked into it, and it turns out that

510
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 5: EA had launched eleven titles from their back catalog like

511
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 5: two hours after I launched my game, like immediately on

512
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 5: the tail of it. And so though I hit all

513
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 5: the thresholds and all the numbers, since that list is

514
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 5: date ordered by launch date, they all came and just

515
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 5: immediately knocked me off the list and all of that

516
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 5: potential exposure. And I found this on in my time

517
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 5: zone International Women's Day, and I was absolutely devastated. So

518
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 5: I posted about it, and I also made a TikTok

519
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 5: where you know, I've made many tiktoks speaking about my

520
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 5: experiences as an Indian game developer. I even mentioned the game.

521
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 5: I said, you know what sucks about being a game developer.

522
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 5: You can work ten years on a project, spend all

523
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 5: this time making sure you have a perfect launch date

524
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 5: to all the marketing and give you things set up,

525
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 5: and then EA can drop eleven titles unannounced and completely

526
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 5: ruin all your work. And then at the end, I said,

527
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 5: so happy as International Women's Day, and that last line

528
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 5: there that upset a lot of people. Obviously, I state

529
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 5: it because I was devastated for this to happen on

530
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 5: International Women's Day, being like an empowering women focused sort

531
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 5: of celebration, right like it's a game four girls about

532
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 5: a girl made by a woman, like I was kind

533
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 5: of hoping that that would be celebratory, and so that

534
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 5: TikTok went extra super crazy viral, which had at first

535
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 5: a huge outpouring of support, and then as the audience increased,

536
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 5: TikTok's algorithms found that there was also a lot of

537
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 5: engagement by really angry male gamers who were very upset

538
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 5: about me and mentioning International Women's Day.

539
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 4: They were upset that I expressed emotions.

540
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 5: They felt like I was being emotionally manipulative, and that

541
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 5: just escalated into beyond the worst harassment I've ever experienced,

542
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 5: like by magnitudes. I had death threats, I had people

543
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 5: spamming pornographic images in my game's discord, like really gross things.

544
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 5: I had people trying to review bomb the game on Steam,

545
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 5: trolling the Steam community forums. I had to put an

546
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 5: anti swatting notice on my house. Yeah, and that was

547
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 5: almost three months ago now, and it slowed down, but

548
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 5: it hasn't stopped, and it'll come. It'll spike, Like I'll

549
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 5: post a TikTok that will awaken algorithms, and then the

550
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 5: main one gets posted out again, and then I'll get

551
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 5: just like hundreds of hateful comments. And when I'm talking

552
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 5: about this, like there was like ten thousand hate comments,

553
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 5: like this is like a small number of things. And

554
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 5: on the launch of your game day, you're trying to

555
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 5: like hot fix and like put out fires right not

556
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 5: also deal with community management fires in right, people trying

557
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 5: to like abuse your community with graphic images and toxicity

558
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 5: right not to mention abuse you too. So it was

559
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 5: stressful for the first couple of weeks. I mean, in

560
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 5: a much more stable place now, a lot less of

561
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 5: being a harassed place as well.

562
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 4: I've been able to release some hot fixes and updates.

563
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 5: But yeah, I feel like I am almost now permanently

564
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 5: in the public eye for the better and worse.

565
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: Right, right, I mean like this is there's so many

566
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: these A. Because you said it's International Women's Day, they're upset,

567
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: which is just International Women's Day.

568
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: Hello.

569
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 2: But B they are not talking about the fact that

570
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: this multimillion dollar if not billion dollar company who doesn't

571
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: give us about no, not at all, you as any person,

572
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: let's just be honest, any person. And like they're defending

573
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: them like they are the victim. A. I'm like, you're

574
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: defending a corporation. One that's really odd. B. We also

575
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: know corporations like that use and abuse. I want to

576
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: talk about manipulation days like International Women's Day, months like

577
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: Pride Month for just getting money, Like it's not even

578
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: about being actually excited to work for or help women,

579
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: it's just using that name or whatever that day. So

580
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 2: like we have these two things and then these trolls

581
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: who just could ignore this, like why are you so

582
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: upset when this is a part of your career And

583
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, you're trying to manipulate us and make

584
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: us feel bad. What how's the same thing to do

585
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: with you, dude? Like there's so many things unpack of,

586
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: like why are you so concerned to the fact that

587
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: you have to put extra energy out to make sure

588
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: someone feels threatened.

589
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's interesting because it's from these people. It's

590
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 5: very rarely one comment like yeah, it's often like I

591
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 5: see my notifications like the pain of ones and not

592
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 5: even on the same video. They like find me and

593
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 5: they get upset and then they go to my other

594
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 5: videos and then they're like.

595
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 4: Upset those sort of like why are you hurting yourself?

596
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 4: Like if you don't like me, just go go.

597
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: Fine, right, why are you taking this much time of

598
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: like why am I living rent free? In your head

599
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: like this, you need to calm down. But again, like

600
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: it comes back to like you're also doing this for

601
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 2: a million multimillionary corporation who will never know your face

602
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 2: and will care less about you in general, Like, so,

603
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: why are you defending this hard for a company? And

604
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: I guarantee these are the same people who also, mister,

605
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 2: you know you're being emotional, are the same people who

606
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: would throw their control at a wall and like you know,

607
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: like bust up something when they die or something like that,

608
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: or the same thing of like a person interrupts them

609
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: during a big moment and then they start screaming and

610
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: like pretty much having you know, like fights with people

611
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: because you're so upset over a gabe like that you

612
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: didn't even create, Like I'm just there's so much baffling,

613
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: like double standards in that. In that alone, it's just

614
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: kind of like, Wow, y'all really want to do this,

615
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 2: Like I just get bloan because I'm not gonna lie.

616
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: When I was looking through it again, from my end,

617
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: I think I was in that moment of like everybody

618
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: supporting you and understanding exactly what you're saying, and yeah,

619
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: we want to we want to see more women, We

620
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,479
Speaker 2: want to see marginalized people in this in this role

621
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 2: because we want to be included or so that people

622
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: will feel included. As well as the fact that again

623
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 2: the people who are making all the money are the

624
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: people who don't love it, who just just wants the money.

625
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: So seeing people who love the game, who love this

626
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: job and want to bring other people up with them,

627
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: that's what we want to support. Why is it that

628
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 2: a bad thing? So for me, I was like, yeah,

629
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: we're gonna support this. But then when you start reading

630
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 2: the comments, and it had to be much later because

631
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 2: when I was initially seeing your video I think was

632
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: almost the day that you released it, it was mainly positive.

633
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 4: Yeah.

634
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: So when I came back to seeing the comments and

635
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: then seeing like they took it to Reddit, they took it,

636
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, what has happened? And of

637
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 2: course ninety eight percent were men were absolutely or young

638
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: boys will say young boys because I don't know. I'm

639
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: sure meant too, but you know what I mean. Like,

640
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: it just it was baffling how they really took a

641
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 2: hold of something and decided to run on their own

642
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: narrative instead of just seeing a woman, an adult who

643
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: was using her skills and smarts and about knowing about

644
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: the corporation and then realizing that it got undermined very

645
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: quickly and being disappointed in that, and seeing that this

646
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: is a part of the business, but also being disappointed

647
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: it's a part of the business too, and being able

648
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 2: to freely say I'm disappointed. It should be it should

649
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: be a standard, like it should be okay, like it

650
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: should be, Yeah, why is this a bad thing?

651
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 3: And they just ran with that.

652
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 2: It was so baffling for me, And I'm glad you're

653
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: on that other end because I didn't know the rest

654
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 2: of the part because I'm not on the discord. All

655
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 2: I saw was obviously just me on the outside seeing

656
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: the comments, and that was bad enough. So I could

657
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: not imagine the toll, the mental health toll that it

658
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 2: took to see things like when they were at deply

659
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: coming after you.

660
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's twofold right on one side. You

661
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 4: you know, to for.

662
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 5: The most part, not take these people seriously. Obviously, Like

663
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 5: I said, I put an anti squatty notice on my house.

664
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 5: I was, you know, implementing proper precautions just in case

665
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 5: somebody decided to go overboard. But I recognize that, yeah,

666
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 5: these are people who are upset, maybe not at me directly,

667
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 5: but they're expressing their anger at me at least that

668
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 5: they're not my target audience. So it's okay if they

669
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 5: don't like me or my game, and that I should

670
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 5: not take their words seriously.

671
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 4: And then on the other.

672
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 5: Hand, each one is just like the littlest paper cut.

673
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 5: And then when there are thousands of them, it gets real,

674
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 5: real exhausted. It's it's really hard. I try to do

675
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 5: things like I create lists of positive things that people say,

676
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 5: like cut them out and put them in a document

677
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 5: so I can review them, and I'll use that to

678
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 5: try to keep my attitude positive, keep my head above water.

679
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 5: But yeah, it certainly it was still difficult, you know,

680
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 5: But I refuse to stop keep making games, keep making

681
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 5: educational content, keep showing other people they can pursue their

682
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 5: dream exactly, gender aside, right, I just want to inspire others.

683
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: Right, And that's again you kind of already mentioned the

684
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 2: fact that you were like, I want to write a

685
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 2: good list of the people who are supporting me, because

686
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 2: obviously we know this in any industry, when you are

687
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: a face of something, whether you're leading a company in

688
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: creating games or any of that, you might go through

689
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: these hard times. And again, gaming industry, like gam or

690
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,439
Speaker 2: gate was a whole thing, we know that a lot

691
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 2: of marginalized people get harassed. For you, what do you

692
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: do to persevere through those times?

693
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 4: Yeah?

694
00:37:53,880 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 5: I think it's it's a combination of actively dismissing hate

695
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 5: and toxicity, like I'm saying to myself, doesn't matter, like

696
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 5: these comments doesn't matter, It's okay. It's also surrounding myself

697
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 5: by people who support me and care for me and

698
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 5: love me. You know, the TikTok was by far the

699
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 5: most toxic platform when it comes to pretty much everything else.

700
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 4: People who are generally really supportive.

701
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 5: So Twitter, LinkedIn Facebook, I get a lot of support there,

702
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 5: and like through friends and family, you know, I reach

703
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 5: out to them. I've always been honest about my mental

704
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 5: and emotional states, so I'll be like, yeah, I'm feeling bad,

705
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 5: I'm really anxious right now because I'm getting all these

706
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 5: hate messages, or you know, in the past, when I've

707
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 5: suffered depression, I've been like, yeah, I'm not doing so well,

708
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,720
Speaker 5: but trying every day. And I think that it helps

709
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 5: to be honest with the people close to you about

710
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 5: those sort of things, because it also makes that more

711
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 5: approachable if they're ever facing similar issues. And then, luckily,

712
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 5: I'm just really stubborn, so I do everything I can

713
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 5: to keep pushing forward. I like synking my teeth into problems.

714
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 5: I like, yeah, being involved with helping others, and so

715
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 5: if social media is too much at any point in time,

716
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 5: I have a lot of other things to focus on.

717
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 5: I have my game, I have mentorship, I have all

718
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 5: sorts of other things where I can spend my time,

719
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 5: and I try to only right now open social media

720
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 5: if I am like mentally prepared for some harassment, like

721
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 5: I only do what I'm feeling like good and stable.

722
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 5: I don't just like I don't allow notifications to come

723
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 5: to my phone from those platforms. They have to be

724
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 5: something that I pull and check.

725
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 3: Actively, though smart.

726
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 2: I made the mistake when I first started podcasting look

727
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: at reviews and I almost cry every day.

728
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 3: Was like, we all told you not to, and they did,

729
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 3: and that finally learned.

730
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: Well, you know, that's a good point, though it's so

731
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: frustrating because you do want to if there are like

732
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: legitimate critiques, you do want that of like, Okay, it

733
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: seems like some of them you might be okay, it

734
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: sounds like you just don't like me, and you're saying

735
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: it politely, okay.

736
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 7: But some of them you're like, okay, I wish I

737
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,439
Speaker 7: had known this and I could have improved. And that's

738
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 7: another thing.

739
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 1: If you're getting like review bombed or all these negative comments.

740
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,919
Speaker 1: It's something that women in marginalized people have to deal

741
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: with that a lot of white men don't, and it

742
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: does impact your job and that's ridiculous.

743
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 7: But yeah, I had to make that same.

744
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: I was like, I can't be on social media, which

745
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: is a place where a lot of us show up

746
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: and try to market our games. Or I don't make

747
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: games our stuff, but like that directly impacts your job

748
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: and your your mental health and physical health.

749
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 5: Honestly, Yeah, and I I haven't done this too much yet,

750
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 5: but I plan on leaning on others to help me

751
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 5: sift through things like if you if you think that

752
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 5: there might be good content and negative reviews, have somebody

753
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 5: else read the negative reviews and tell you the like

754
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 5: important takeaways because.

755
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 1: At point Idea, you know it's an important job.

756
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 6: It's an important job, you know.

757
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: But with all of that, you also did receive a

758
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: lot of support. Like I said, I was at the

759
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: beginning with like, oh yeah, everybody's like, yes, we're here,

760
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: we let we hear you, we see this, we want

761
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: this game. And with that big conversation of why supporting

762
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: independent gaming companies like yours is so important, how do

763
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: you feel in seeing this type of support.

764
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 5: I was so thankful for the support, and I know

765
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 5: it's easy for me to get overwhelmed about the harassment,

766
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 5: but I recognized that the outpouring of support was honestly

767
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 5: really wonderful, and it did recover sort of the exposure

768
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 5: and marketing loss that that had happened on my launch

769
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 5: day and I've also I've got the very sweetest fan emails.

770
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 5: Like I was expecting to maybe get like one or

771
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 5: two fan emails, ever in the first week, I was

772
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 5: getting one or two a day, and like paragraphs long

773
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 5: talking about who they are and their experiences and why.

774
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 4: The game meant so much to them.

775
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 5: I am tearing up actually thinking about it, because it's

776
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 5: just so sweet to know that you can connect with

777
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 5: others that way, that you can give them something to

778
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 5: connect with and that they appreciate something that you put

779
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 5: so much of yourself into. And that's that's just been

780
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 5: truly wonderful, and it's why I'm so excited to do

781
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 5: my next steps. I'm looking at bringing the game to

782
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 5: switch and PlayStation and Xbox, so I have my devocates

783
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 5: of working on Courting, just getting out one more patch

784
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,959
Speaker 5: for PC that's gonna have a lot of quality life

785
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 5: improvements that actually are also partially for consoles, like making

786
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 5: font sizes bigger and things more readable.

787
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 4: So I'm really I'm really.

788
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 5: Looking forward to sharing this game with even more people.

789
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 5: And I am so lucky to be a game developer

790
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 5: in a time where indie developers can exist, where we

791
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 5: don't have to have publishers to make physical cartridges where

792
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 5: you know a smaller game can thrive. And right now,

793
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 5: I think indie development is extra important because it is

794
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 5: a wonderful storytelling medium and there is so much that

795
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 5: indie developers can communicate that other game developers can't. I

796
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 5: mentor a bunch of Indonesian game developers, and they are

797
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 5: making games that are bringing in their local culture and

798
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 5: lore and history, and that's really wonderful.

799
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 4: In potions, I.

800
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 5: Mean I intentionally brought in other cultures.

801
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 4: You have Babby Alga from Slavic lore.

802
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 6: You have like.

803
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 5: Three of the four Journey to the West characters in

804
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 5: one of the sections.

805
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 4: Of the game. You have Sindbad and the Sphinx. There's

806
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 4: all sorts of characters and stories that help.

807
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 5: Make people more worldly just by playing the game, like

808
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 5: give them an insight into these other cultures and lore.

809
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 5: And right now, with how the game and industry has been,

810
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 5: almost all of the Triple A studios cut their research

811
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 5: and development teams that are on D teams that was

812
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 5: what they did before. A lot of the layoffs are

813
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 5: at the start of the layoffs, so there are very

814
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 5: few large studios that are really working to push boundaries

815
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 5: and create new ip So that's that's where indie devs

816
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 5: can shine right now. There's a huge gap in the

817
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 5: market for us to do innovative things, to break new

818
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 5: bounds in to bring players to new worlds.

819
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm at the Sphinx in the game.

820
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 7: You're saying it like you're haunted Samantha.

821
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 4: I love this.

822
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 5: She's got a great attitude. Does for anyone listening if

823
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 5: you get to the Sphinx say all the wrong answers first,

824
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 5: because she has a unique reaction to each of them.

825
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: No, I think I did one. I think she was

826
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,919
Speaker 2: really sissan Okay.

827
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 7: I love this.

828
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 6: Well.

829
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 7: Do you have any speaking of you've been talking about

830
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 7: mentorship and all of this, do you have any advice

831
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 7: for people who want to get into the industry.

832
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 5: Absolutely make a game. It doesn't have to be a

833
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 5: big game. It doesn't have to be a new game.

834
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 5: You can recreate pac Man that's fine. Find a tutorial

835
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 5: or a game engine. Learnt unity dot com is great,

836
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 5: and even just get out a piece of paper and

837
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 5: start sketching out ideas. There are tons of resources available

838
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 5: to teach you aspects of game development, but really the

839
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 5: joy of game development is coming up with something and

840
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 5: being creative.

841
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 4: So just start there.

842
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 5: And then gather the tools you need as you go

843
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 5: to sort of bring that first vision to life. Doesn't

844
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 5: have to be perfect, doesn't have to be complete, but

845
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 5: you'll learn so much along the way, and it will

846
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 5: guide you along your path going forward.

847
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: I have to say it's also a fascinating experience in

848
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: like thinking about human psychology, like what will a person do?

849
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: You know, like, Okay, I've got to think about all

850
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: of the strange ideas that.

851
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 4: I can tell you you absolutely can't.

852
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 5: And play testing is super important. You have no idea

853
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 5: how much the start of Potions Curious has changed, not

854
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 5: even like the core like how it works, but changing

855
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 5: like camera zoom and making things sparkle and giving hints

856
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 5: like Potions tries to not hold your hand, but there

857
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 5: are so many hints and like visual cues in there

858
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 5: to help guide players because the first time they didn't

859
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 5: know what was going on, Like it requires a lot

860
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 5: of iteration. You can think you've designed a perfect game

861
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 5: and you'll put in front of somebody and they'll be like,

862
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 5: I have no clue what's going on, and I don't

863
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 5: know what to.

864
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 3: Do, and it's like you and D and D.

865
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: When you think you've predicted what they're going to do,

866
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: they do them being completely opposite and they make stories exactly.

867
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 7: It's like a beautiful, annoying thing.

868
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, okay, I never would have thought of that,

869
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: but all right.

870
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 4: They're very creative.

871
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 7: Here we go, and I love I like, legitimately love it.

872
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: But it is an exercise of thinking, like they're going

873
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: to find some way to set this up on fire.

874
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 7: I just got to figure out how apparently.

875
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: Okay, do you have any advice to if someone's got

876
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: an idea for a game but they're not really sure,

877
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: like should I pursue this or what should I do?

878
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: Any advice for people like that who have like the

879
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 1: idea but don't really know the next steps.

880
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, once you have a core idea for your game,

881
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 5: I recommend generating a like Elevator pitch, two or three

882
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 5: sentences that capture the absolute core of your game, what

883
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 5: makes it special. So I actually gave you the elevator

884
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 5: pitch for Potions earlier. So something like that, you talk

885
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 5: about the genre, the story setting, what makes it unique,

886
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 5: and that will help you have.

887
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 4: Your north star. It'll be sort of your vision there.

888
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 5: Once you have that, think about your audience, who would

889
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 5: like that vision and is it going to be if

890
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 5: you want to be commercially viable, a large enough audience

891
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 5: to actually support the development of the game.

892
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 4: And then if.

893
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 5: Those two are checked off, make a simple prototype. Make

894
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 5: sure that what you think is going to be fun

895
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 5: is fun. Jonathan Blow actually has a really wonderful talk

896
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 5: on indie prototyping and talks about what is important to

897
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 5: prototype and what successful prototypes are like. I won't summarize

898
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 5: as like hour plus talk there, but definitely prototype core mechanics,

899
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 5: what makes your game special and see if that's actually

900
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 5: as fun as you think it is, and if it

901
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 5: is your set to go, you can build it out

902
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 5: from there.

903
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 2: Okay, Now with all of that, as we are coming

904
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 2: towards the end, I need to know what are your

905
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 2: future plans.

906
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 3: Do you have other games in mind that you're creating,

907
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 3: or what's happening in the world of Fumily Caz.

908
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:47,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

909
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,399
Speaker 5: So I'm working on an update patch for Potions right

910
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 5: now that has some quality of life features and more

911
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 5: art asset updates, and then after that I will be

912
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 5: working on the console ports so that should take me

913
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 5: at least through October, if not into next year. Beyond that,

914
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 5: I do have another game idea. I'm thinking of doing

915
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 5: something that's a little more social. So when I grew up,

916
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 5: I had like Pokemon Stadium, and Pokemon Stadium had a

917
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 5: party game mode built into it. I never played a

918
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 5: ton of Mario Party, but I have as an adult,

919
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 5: and I really want to create sort of a really

920
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 5: fun party game, silly game. And the nice thing about

921
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 5: that is it is tight, small, fast iteration on small

922
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 5: game experiences. I love potions, I love story based adventure games.

923
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 5: I need a little bit of a break and do

924
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,879
Speaker 5: some faster iteration, find the fun really quick. So I'm

925
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 5: looking forward to starting that next.

926
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 3: I love it. Can I get?

927
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 4: Can?

928
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 3: I ask that?

929
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 6: So?

930
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 2: One of the things that I cannot do in Mario

931
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 2: Party is when they have to run across things where

932
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 2: they can't. Can you do play sure that I can't

933
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: fall off of things? That's what I'm meaning's.

934
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 4: Guardrails rails those games.

935
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 3: I can't.

936
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 7: We play a lot of Mario.

937
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: Like every time I have to also Mario Kart. Why

938
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 2: do they let me fall off? This should not be

939
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 2: a thing.

940
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 3: I don't I don't.

941
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 2: I don't need this for my self esteem anyway, just

942
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 2: noted noted.

943
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it make it friendly and accessible for sure.

944
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 3: Just just bumber rails. That's all I need.

945
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 2: Also, again, I'm talking about the fact that I am

946
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: a beginner essentially when it comes to like working with

947
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 2: different outlets and platforms. And I love a good like

948
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 2: cozy game. Like I've really gotten into those where like

949
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 2: there's a but there's still like mystery and still a

950
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: little gameplay in it. What would you suggest for me?

951
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,280
Speaker 2: Do you know of anything that I could look into

952
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: or you know what I could be more advanced? Push

953
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 2: me a little more advanced. But what recommends me?

954
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 5: I have the perfect game for you? Okay, this is

955
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 5: like a cozy game pre cozy games. Okay, It's called

956
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 5: Recitere an Item Shops Tale.

957
00:51:58,560 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 3: Okay, I got write this, damn keep going.

958
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 5: And so you play as the owner of an item

959
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 5: shop in a fantasy RPG, and you are the main

960
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 5: character's motto is capitalism ho. So yeah, it's a shop

961
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 5: running simulator. You're trying to like min max profits. There

962
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 5: is a dungeon diving aspect to it. I love it,

963
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 5: But you don't have to do the Dungeon Divy. If

964
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 5: you don't want to, you can purely do like Bilo

965
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 5: sell High Manipulation of the Market. And it's it's really

966
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 5: fun and it's really cute, very well done, and it's

967
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 5: it's pretty old.

968
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 4: So I think you can get it on sale.

969
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 2: What do you need to get like? Can I get

970
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: it through Switch? Or do I need to do it

971
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 2: Steam Deck the PC?

972
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 5: I know you can get it on Steam. I don't

973
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 5: know if you can get it on modern consoles. It

974
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 5: is a pretty old game.

975
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 1: I'll go find it. I'll find this is so great.

976
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: At the start of the pandemic, smanth that was like,

977
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: never play a game. Then as the pandemic has happened,

978
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: you know more games than get there. You'd give me

979
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: a lot of great advice. I love it. Can you

980
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: played this? This is fantastic? Well, thank you, thank you,

981
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. Renee, would

982
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: you like to tell the good listeners how to find you?

983
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:20,919
Speaker 4: Yeah?

984
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 5: Absolutely, you can find Potions of Curious Tale currently on Steam.

985
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 5: Just type in potions you should be able to find it.

986
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 5: If you want to follow me on social media, I

987
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 5: am Riku Ka t Riku Kat with a k on

988
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 5: pretty much everything, So I am very easy to find.

989
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 4: If you want to find me on anything except for YouTube. YouTube,

990
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 4: just find me under Renee Giittens.

991
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 6: I'll be there.

992
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: I thought you were about to say, like, except for YouTube,

993
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: they won't have me up there.

994
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 4: No, it's trying to be more formal.

995
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 5: It's like, oh, Renee Gittens, because formality I should have

996
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 5: just stuck to the same handle.

997
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 1: All good, well, listeners, go go check out all of

998
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: those things. Go check out the game. It's awesome. It's beautiful.

999
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: If you haven't already, and if you would like to

1000
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: contact us, you can or email is Stuff Media mom

1001
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on

1002
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:17,720
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok

1003
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 1: and stuff whe Never Told You.

1004
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 7: We're on YouTube. We have a t pelg store. Hey,

1005
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 7: we have a book you can get wherever you get

1006
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 7: your books.

1007
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our superroducer christinaor executive Pducer Mayer

1008
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey.

1009
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1010
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You

1011
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: is production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts on my

1012
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the I Heart Radio

1013
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:34,280
Speaker 1: Apple podcast

1014
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 7: Or wherever you listen to your favorite ships,