Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I'm Matts,
Speaker 1: and today we're discussing how to level up your money
Speaker 1: with gamification. Yep, man, we're gonna talk about gamification. You know,
Speaker 1: every time I see that word written out, I want
Speaker 1: to say gammafication like a Gamma ray. Yeah, like Gamma
Speaker 1: rays exactly, because that sounds more fun and games are fun.
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, gamification in and of itself is fun. Rights,
Speaker 1: so can we play games of our finances to do better?
Speaker 1: That's what we're gonna get into. That's what we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about. Man. Before we do that, we came across
Speaker 1: this article about all these new mattress companies and the
Speaker 1: return policy. You want to dive into it a little bit, sure, Yeah,
Speaker 1: So instead of gamification, what people are doing is gaming
Speaker 1: the system of these mattress companies. And there are these beautiful,
Speaker 1: wonderful free a hundred night or more trials that a
Speaker 1: lot of these new mattress companies offered. These bed in
Speaker 1: the box. They ship it to your house and you
Speaker 1: test it out and you see whether you like it
Speaker 1: or not. Like Casper was at the forefront of this, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, there are all sorts of companies out there
Speaker 1: now that will ship you a needle. Yeah, there's Avocado,
Speaker 1: aren't they like one of the primo ones they are? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. I can't show up for that, dude, right, right.
Speaker 1: But the cool thing is because people are like, I
Speaker 1: don't know you, I'm not sat on your bed, like
Speaker 1: I can't tell whether it's good or not. These companies,
Speaker 1: in order to build confidence and for people to actually
Speaker 1: make the purchase and give it a try, well, they
Speaker 1: needed to have a great return policy. And I love
Speaker 1: that that exists, Like, that's such a nice way to
Speaker 1: buy something with that peace of mind. Certainly. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a perfect solution to a problem when you have an
Speaker 1: online retail model, right, And so specifically, if you are
Speaker 1: looking to buy a mattress and you're genuinely wanting to
Speaker 1: try it out, support the one month free trial or
Speaker 1: three months free trial or even one year. There there's
Speaker 1: one example where this one company has a full sixty
Speaker 1: five day return policy. Is incredible, very incredible, so incredible
Speaker 1: that people are completely taking advantage of that situation sleeping
Speaker 1: on the bed for free for anywhere between a month
Speaker 1: and a full year and sending that junk back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of people think about that. What people quoted
Speaker 1: in the article said, you never have to buy mattress again.
Speaker 1: Basically what you do is you just get a new
Speaker 1: one every three months by returning the one and just
Speaker 1: saying that you you didn't like it or wasn't up
Speaker 1: to your standards or whatever. And I think what's gonna
Speaker 1: happen is is that these generous return policies, these generous
Speaker 1: trials are going to end because of the people that
Speaker 1: are gaming the system. And it's unfortunate because it's a
Speaker 1: great new business model. It's a great way to get
Speaker 1: a bed, and there are some great companies out there
Speaker 1: with great customer service that are trying to take care
Speaker 1: of people that actually want to buy a new bed.
Speaker 1: And these people are going to ruin it for everyone.
Speaker 1: They're gonna ruin that free trial period. It's just like,
Speaker 1: didn't Costco have to like kind of go back on
Speaker 1: their return policy where they they said they would take anything,
Speaker 1: but then folks started bringing back ridiculous stuff. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: Costco still has an amazing return policy. The thing they
Speaker 1: had to tweak was how they accepted electronics returns because
Speaker 1: people would come back and say, I'm returning this desktop
Speaker 1: computer from two thousand and five because because you know what,
Speaker 1: not because it's it's bad. I got my use out
Speaker 1: of it, it's been great, but it turns out they're
Speaker 1: way way cheaper now and way way better, and so
Speaker 1: I'd like to return my money back. Yeah, I like
Speaker 1: the five thousand dollars I spent on this desktop computer,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna buy a four one now and so
Speaker 1: that that's five times faster. Again, that's that's an example
Speaker 1: of people gaming the system, not using it for what
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be used for. And so I have
Speaker 1: no problem if someone returning a mattress because they say
Speaker 1: it wasn't great, but I genuinely wanted to give it
Speaker 1: a try. I really thought I might actually keep it.
Speaker 1: And the same thing with something like Costco. If you're
Speaker 1: going to buy something and return it because it wasn't
Speaker 1: up the snuff for you had a problem, that's totally fine.
Speaker 1: But gaming the system like that is just in my mind,
Speaker 1: that's cheap. That's not frugal. Yeah, this is a great
Speaker 1: example of frugal versus cheap, which, dude, by the way,
Speaker 1: we need to do more frugal verse cheaps. I feel
Speaker 1: like we've kind of fallen off the wagon a little bit,
Speaker 1: so maybe maybe this year we can revitalize that a
Speaker 1: little bit. But yeah, I feel like this is a
Speaker 1: perfect example of someone being cheap, not frugal, and specifically,
Speaker 1: I think a big part of that is obviously folks
Speaker 1: are not being perfectly honest as well, right, but just
Speaker 1: all the waste that's involved as well, Like, that's the
Speaker 1: biggest thing that kind of bothers me is that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of states where they're not allowed or they
Speaker 1: don't allow themselves to resell these you know, quote unquote
Speaker 1: used mattresses or even give them away, like they have
Speaker 1: to be thrown in the trash. And it's such a
Speaker 1: shame because that's a lot of waste. These barely used
Speaker 1: mattresses would would be great in serving uh folks in
Speaker 1: in areas that where there's a lot of poverty, where
Speaker 1: where the homeless shelters lots of application. There could be
Speaker 1: so many great uses for these gently used mattresses, but
Speaker 1: a lot of these guidelines and understandable, right, there could
Speaker 1: be bed bugs or something like that, Like mattresses are
Speaker 1: kind of one of those items that buying used. You
Speaker 1: have to be aware, so I understand the rules, but
Speaker 1: it's a it's a shame. And I think this makes
Speaker 1: it even more of a shame because we know a
Speaker 1: lot of those mattresses are going in the landfills, which
Speaker 1: totally sucks man, exactly. That's like, that's the epitome of
Speaker 1: being cheap, when you're putting your cheapness upon somebody else,
Speaker 1: and this is a perfect example of that. Like this
Speaker 1: is going into a landfill, and you know, not only
Speaker 1: are you reaping a financial benefit from that, but you're
Speaker 1: you're displacing the cost of that onto not only everyone
Speaker 1: around you, but the earth as well. And we're not
Speaker 1: even talking about like the what the wasted resources and
Speaker 1: like the carbon footprint that it took to create that
Speaker 1: mattress as well, which and the shipping and all that.
Speaker 1: It totally kind of bums me out. So if that's you,
Speaker 1: I think twice yeah, And we love to know your
Speaker 1: thoughts on this too. I think it's an interesting topic,
Speaker 1: like the frugal versus cheap like when is it too far?
Speaker 1: And so yeah, maybe in the Facebook group if you
Speaker 1: want to let your thoughts be known, we'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from you just go to Facebook and search how
Speaker 1: the Money in the search bar, you'll find our group
Speaker 1: and we'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on
Speaker 1: that because it is an interesting topic. I'm going to
Speaker 1: create a fake account and go in there and say
Speaker 1: that I'm all for it and see what happens. Man,
Speaker 1: You're gonna start a ruckus in there. We'll get lampooned.
Speaker 1: Maybe you might well see Yeah, all right, Matt. We
Speaker 1: gotta mention the beer that we're having on the show today,
Speaker 1: astral Prism by Modern Times Beer. Big thanks to my
Speaker 1: buddy Craig who brews out there from Honor Time sending
Speaker 1: this one our away. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to
Speaker 1: enjoying this one, man, and getting your thoughts as well
Speaker 1: at the end of this episode. All right, man, sounds good,
Speaker 1: But now onto the subject at hand. We're talking about
Speaker 1: leveling up your money game with gamification, with gamification, not gammification,
Speaker 1: all right. But the reason, Matt, I think for this episode,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a perfect, you know, early January
Speaker 1: episode to do because a lot of us were really
Speaker 1: trying to figure out we're we're super intentional oftentimes in
Speaker 1: January and the beginning of January. How are we going
Speaker 1: to get our money game straight? How are we going
Speaker 1: to do better than we did in twenty nineteen? And
Speaker 1: tons of Americans have a real difficult to getting their
Speaker 1: personal finances together. Right there, There's a lot of folks
Speaker 1: out there, for many different reasons that have a hard
Speaker 1: time saving any money, investing any money, building wealth. And
Speaker 1: and that's what the show is about. We want to
Speaker 1: help people in all sorts of different walks of life
Speaker 1: achieve a modicum of financial independence in their lives. But
Speaker 1: they have a hard time making that progress with their
Speaker 1: different money goals that they're loosely trying to achieve. And
Speaker 1: I say loosely because mostly those goals are aspirational. There's
Speaker 1: no rubber meeting the road. And also there's this problem
Speaker 1: that achieving financial goals can be hard and boring. Right,
Speaker 1: Like people are like snooze fest, let me let me
Speaker 1: kick off the how of money guys and go listen
Speaker 1: to some like murder Mystery Show or something like that. Right,
Speaker 1: And I understand like those might be more funds, maybe
Speaker 1: sounds a little bit more fun. We're fun though, Hey,
Speaker 1: that's why we have a beer because we wanted to
Speaker 1: make personal finances a little more approachable and like, and
Speaker 1: that has a lot to do with our show, Like,
Speaker 1: I think gamification is just a perfect episode for us
Speaker 1: to cover. Yeah, so, so, really, how do we take
Speaker 1: these hopes and these dreams and turn them into this
Speaker 1: debt slaying, wealth building reality. Well, the fact is gamification, Like,
Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about here. When we can gamify
Speaker 1: our personal finances, that can help us to actually achieve
Speaker 1: some of those goals like paying down debt, like saving
Speaker 1: and investing more of our money when it would otherwise
Speaker 1: be something that we wouldn't do at all. Right, It
Speaker 1: will also likely make the entire process more speedy and
Speaker 1: fun as well. Gamification triggers our emotions, and it can
Speaker 1: lock us into a course of action that would be
Speaker 1: harder for us to pursue were it not for the
Speaker 1: implementation of these game like elements. Yeah, I think for
Speaker 1: a lot of us, a goal for is a great
Speaker 1: aim for this year is for to have a better
Speaker 1: relationship with money in general. And one thing that can
Speaker 1: help you achieve that is to modify your approach and
Speaker 1: think about money more like a game. Gamification helps us
Speaker 1: reframe this difficult subject and turn it into something that
Speaker 1: we can be a little more curious and experimental with.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes, Matt, that curiosity, that experimentation, when we're
Speaker 1: able to approach money from that angle as opposed to
Speaker 1: this like hard nosed Excel kind of angle, it can
Speaker 1: really give us a lot more leeway to jump in
Speaker 1: with both feet and to kind of get excited about
Speaker 1: seeing some move some changes with our finances. Yeah, that's true,
Speaker 1: because it's fun, right, And here's the thing. We like fun,
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's not the end goal, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's just a means to an end. Hopefully over time,
Speaker 1: by the repeated action of doing the smart thing because
Speaker 1: it happens to be fun, that can transform the way
Speaker 1: that we actually view that action. So when it comes
Speaker 1: to our money, we don't necessarily care that something is fun,
Speaker 1: only that it leads to improved behavior when it comes
Speaker 1: to your money, that it gets you doing whatever it
Speaker 1: is that you should be doing. I think there's sort
Speaker 1: of a warning in this as well, where we need
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're not getting sucked into the
Speaker 1: game itself, because sometimes we can kind of lose sight
Speaker 1: of the larger goals, right. I'm specifically thinking of coupons
Speaker 1: because people they see the coupon and they think that's
Speaker 1: such a great deal. Well cool, would you have purchased
Speaker 1: that overpriced you know, cheese? Otherwise maybe not? And so
Speaker 1: in that case you're taking advantage of maybe a specific deal,
Speaker 1: but the big picture is you spent more on that
Speaker 1: fancy cheese. Well, you know what I hate more than
Speaker 1: anything over price cheese. I'm glad you brought up that example,
Speaker 1: because that is a thorn in my side. My friend, Well,
Speaker 1: I know you're just joking, and I would actually love
Speaker 1: it if we had a beer in cheese paring. That
Speaker 1: sounds nice. Would that be? Oh my gosh, we'd be
Speaker 1: a fancy show then. But you know what, we couldn't
Speaker 1: do that. All They has some pretty nice cheeses, though
Speaker 1: at a reasonable price. I will say, yeah, I like
Speaker 1: all the cheese. All right, Matt. Since we're talking about
Speaker 1: gamification quickly, I gotta know, like, do you have like
Speaker 1: a favorite game, current or past? Maybe? Well, okay, So
Speaker 1: one that comes to mind is have I ever told
Speaker 1: you about what I affectionately used to call dt D. No,
Speaker 1: it's a desktop tower defense. Was this like back in
Speaker 1: the Prince of Persia days? Where you playing. That's also
Speaker 1: another fantastic game back in the speaking of computers from
Speaker 1: oh five, and I was like computers from ninety five, right,
Speaker 1: Uh No, it was this little flash game on this
Speaker 1: website and a very highly addictive simple game. But I
Speaker 1: spent way too many of my lunch breaks at my
Speaker 1: former advertising job playing that dumb game. And this is
Speaker 1: before we had kids as well. So I would come
Speaker 1: home and I would play it at home sometimes too, Okay,
Speaker 1: would hear the music playing the little sound effects, and
Speaker 1: she would roll her eyes, you know, like she's trying
Speaker 1: to convince me to stop wasting my time on this
Speaker 1: on the silly game, because I really really liked it.
Speaker 1: Don't look it up, by the way, because I'm not
Speaker 1: even kidding you would totally all right, I'll avoid it
Speaker 1: them like the Plague. It's really good, I think so,
Speaker 1: but probably my favorite, yeah what about you video game
Speaker 1: for a long time. I mean, I played a lot
Speaker 1: of NBA Jam back in the day. That's pretty good.
Speaker 1: Physical wise, I like spike Ball and disc golf a lot, right,
Speaker 1: those are my two favorite games. If if you're listening
Speaker 1: to Mike Ball, you and me last time we played,
Speaker 1: you mean we teamed up. We did. We tore it
Speaker 1: up completely dominated nice little deal. They were like little
Speaker 1: nas and uh Billy ray Ciris something like that. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure which one is which I'm little a little nas,
Speaker 1: Okay on the minority. I'll take that. I'll take that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And for folks listening who haven't played spike ball, get
Speaker 1: on it. It's a great sport. It's fun. But we
Speaker 1: typically play games because there are a ton of fun
Speaker 1: and we enjoy them, right, and if we received some
Speaker 1: sort of like side benefit from the game, well it's
Speaker 1: just just a bone. This and strategy board games will
Speaker 1: They get us thinking and they keep us sharp and
Speaker 1: it makes you think about Matt Episode five, we talked
Speaker 1: about nerdy board games. We love nerdy board games as well.
Speaker 1: Also playing in like a Rex soccer league, well that
Speaker 1: can help keep us fit. But the fact the games
Speaker 1: are fun is at the root of why we played them.
Speaker 1: And depending on who you ask, they'll give you different
Speaker 1: reasons why games are fun. Maybe it's a competition that
Speaker 1: you're drawn to, or the prize at the end of
Speaker 1: the game or at the end of the season, the
Speaker 1: trophy that you get. Maybe, but there are aspects of
Speaker 1: a game that make it fun, and that's what we're
Speaker 1: focusing on in this episode. Yeah, when we can figure
Speaker 1: out what it is about a particular game that we
Speaker 1: love and that we're drawn to, well, then we can
Speaker 1: bridge that gap between a game that we love and
Speaker 1: our personal finances. That's what we believe here. We can
Speaker 1: take those principles from something we find naturally appealing and
Speaker 1: apply them to something that most folks financially boring, like
Speaker 1: saving and investing our money. So will budgeting ever be
Speaker 1: as fun as playing candy Crush or playing Fortnite? Probably not.
Speaker 1: But if we can bring even a action of the
Speaker 1: excitement to our personal finances that we have towards the
Speaker 1: games that we play, I think we'll all likely see
Speaker 1: our money in better places. In Yeah, So we're gonna
Speaker 1: go over kind of some of the things that make
Speaker 1: gaming fun and the way we can translate that to
Speaker 1: how we handle our money, and then a lot of
Speaker 1: really good examples I think that we've got we throughout
Speaker 1: this episode that you're going to be able to apply
Speaker 1: to your life. Now that you can change the way
Speaker 1: you handle your money, you can gamify it, and you
Speaker 1: know what it's going to have a massive impact on
Speaker 1: how your personal finances are handled. In like it's going
Speaker 1: to be able to help you make real changes in
Speaker 1: your life. And we'll get to some of that stuff
Speaker 1: right after the break. All right, Joel, we are back
Speaker 1: from the break, and let's talk now about what makes
Speaker 1: games fun. Right the rest of this episode, we're going
Speaker 1: to try and figure out what it is about games
Speaker 1: that we enjoy and they we're gonna apply those things
Speaker 1: to our personal finances. Man, I honestly think it's a
Speaker 1: little ironic that we're analyzing what it is that makes
Speaker 1: games fun, because it kind of sounds like one of
Speaker 1: the nerdiest, at least fun things that we've ever discussed. Right.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like if you were to take a
Speaker 1: college course on how to do stand up, Like you're
Speaker 1: analyzing a joke that's not really how it's supposed to
Speaker 1: be enjoyed. But at the same time, I think this
Speaker 1: is really important because I think there really are principles
Speaker 1: about games, and if we think about them in the
Speaker 1: right light, well, then we can take these principles and
Speaker 1: apply them to any problem that we're faced with, any
Speaker 1: sort of personal finance challenge, to find a way to
Speaker 1: make it stickier, to make it something that we will
Speaker 1: actually accomplish over time instead of kind of just kicking
Speaker 1: it to the side after that New Year's resolution kind
Speaker 1: of phase kind of wears off. Yeah. Yeah, a quick goal.
Speaker 1: It's easy to throw out a quick couple of financial goals,
Speaker 1: But implementation is where it gets hard, right, That's where
Speaker 1: it becomes more difficult. The stick tuitiveness, and I think
Speaker 1: sometimes gamification can help us stick to it. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: what's one of the major reasons we like games, Well,
Speaker 1: one of them is competition. We like watching our favorite
Speaker 1: sports team beat up the rival cross town sports team.
Speaker 1: Like that is as old as America itself, right, So,
Speaker 1: so many of the best sports and games out in
Speaker 1: the world today are ones that involve playing against our
Speaker 1: beating an opponent. Anytime you can bring some competition in
Speaker 1: the picture, things are bound to get more fun. Even
Speaker 1: if you're not playing directly against a friend, you're trying
Speaker 1: to beat the final boss, the final level, You're trying
Speaker 1: to put a nail in the coffin of that game.
Speaker 1: You're trying to be done with it, and I want
Speaker 1: to beat that game exactly. Have those braggen rights, right,
Speaker 1: And so Matt. Let me give you a quick example.
Speaker 1: So my my boss, Christa, she had this spin class
Speaker 1: birthday party and I brought my bike to work, so
Speaker 1: I was like, cool, it's gonna be fun. I don't
Speaker 1: really do spin class, never done it before actually until
Speaker 1: this party. But I ride to work every day some boss,
Speaker 1: So we'll see how this goes. I will say I
Speaker 1: was not up to her level because she's like a
Speaker 1: spin class master. But different than running a bike. It
Speaker 1: is different. It is different. Yeah, I mean it's they're
Speaker 1: definitely obviously you're using some of your hands instead of
Speaker 1: your legs. Yeah, exactly, That's what I was doing when
Speaker 1: I was down on all four been doggy paddle class.
Speaker 1: Oh you didn't tell me that, but like they had
Speaker 1: this pumped up music and instructors that were super excited
Speaker 1: and getting us motivated. And then also on top of that,
Speaker 1: the thing for me that had the leaderboard, and the
Speaker 1: leaderboard was what motivated me to go even harder. So
Speaker 1: sometimes on my on my bike to work or home,
Speaker 1: I'll take it. I'll take it nice and leisurely, like
Speaker 1: I won't go super hard because who's it benefiting if
Speaker 1: I go harder? It's just me right, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: my health. It's good for me. But ultimately I'm not
Speaker 1: competing against anyone. But when I had that leaderboard in
Speaker 1: front of me, man, it made me like go twice
Speaker 1: as hard. I saw people were rising and falling second
Speaker 1: by second, and so you're like, oh, man, I just
Speaker 1: dropped down at number six or seven, and I want
Speaker 1: to be top five. So I started going harder and harder.
Speaker 1: And so obviously it's different riding a spin class bike
Speaker 1: and and competing with other people on the leaderboard versus
Speaker 1: just my normal ride into work. Ultimately, I think I
Speaker 1: like my ride into work a little bit better. Like
Speaker 1: but that is one of those things that off times
Speaker 1: we're drawn to when it comes to games. Is that
Speaker 1: high level of competition that we can experience. Sure, Well,
Speaker 1: quick question to Crystal win because it was her birthday party, right,
Speaker 1: we should have let her win. I don't remember. I
Speaker 1: don't remember who wanted. Months back. I don't think she wanted,
Speaker 1: but I think she's like top three, she's really good. Nice.
Speaker 1: I've never done that. Maybe I will someday. Well, competition,
Speaker 1: right in your example, it's very clear what the point
Speaker 1: of that class was like they've got the leaderboard up there.
Speaker 1: You want to win, You want to you want to
Speaker 1: be at the top of the heap. When it comes
Speaker 1: to our money, the point isn't always super clear and straightforward, right,
Speaker 1: And so because of that, I think we tend to
Speaker 1: default to what comes easiest and the most natural to us,
Speaker 1: and that's to compete with those around you, right, like
Speaker 1: with your friends and co workers. Just like you do
Speaker 1: with any sort of game that you play or any
Speaker 1: sort of competition that you enter your you typically compete
Speaker 1: against other people. When you think about it, I think
Speaker 1: this can be a really unhealthy view of competition when
Speaker 1: you are looking at it through the lens of your
Speaker 1: personal finances, right when you're thinking about your money. If
Speaker 1: you're looking at it that way, if it's always the competition,
Speaker 1: this can lead to sort of that keeping up with
Speaker 1: the Joneses mentality of spending way more than you should.
Speaker 1: With this view, and if you kind of approach your
Speaker 1: personal finances with that in mind, you're sort of entering
Speaker 1: the arena with that scarcity mindset, right jel Like if
Speaker 1: you hear people talking about like not focusing on getting
Speaker 1: your slize of the pie, but let's work on growing
Speaker 1: the pie. And I think that's completely true when it
Speaker 1: comes to our money. When it comes to our personal
Speaker 1: finances in the real world, your money has very little
Speaker 1: to do with my money. If you max out your
Speaker 1: four own k or your roth ira A, what does
Speaker 1: that mean I have less money to max out my
Speaker 1: rath ire. No, there's very little impact if your personal
Speaker 1: finances online, we're not actually competing. Yeah, I think to
Speaker 1: what we can see on the surface is completely different
Speaker 1: than what reality looks like when when we're talking about money.
Speaker 1: So let's take for example, uh, like what percentage of
Speaker 1: NFL players go bankrupt once their career is over. It's
Speaker 1: it's something astronomical. It's like eight eventually file for bankruptcy.
Speaker 1: And that's a terrible statistic. But those people have earned
Speaker 1: oftentimes more money in one year than most of us
Speaker 1: will see in a whole entire lifetime. And then you
Speaker 1: look at somebody like Warren Buffett who's lived in the
Speaker 1: same house for thirty or forty years and eats at
Speaker 1: McDonald's every single morning. I mean, it's this sort of
Speaker 1: man because it's so good, right and healthy for you,
Speaker 1: and it's one of those things that sometimes having money
Speaker 1: it's not reflective on the surface. And actually, you know,
Speaker 1: when you dig in deeper an old school book, something
Speaker 1: like the Millionaire next Door, and you see that the
Speaker 1: way that millionaires live, actually it's pretty hard to tell
Speaker 1: that they're millionaires. And so I think sometimes that's where
Speaker 1: we get hung up is we see other people living
Speaker 1: a lifestyle that reflects having money. But ultimately the people
Speaker 1: that are living a lifestyle where it looks like they
Speaker 1: have money, oftentimes they don't have that much money and
Speaker 1: they haven't been handling their money well. And there's credit
Speaker 1: card debt funding that lifestyle that we just don't know
Speaker 1: about that's not apparent on the surface. Yeah, dude, so true,
Speaker 1: Like so much of personal finance is hidden, right, Like
Speaker 1: all that's visible is maybe that big house or that
Speaker 1: new car. Really, though, the true challenge and the true
Speaker 1: competition will vary for each person depending on where they
Speaker 1: are life, like maybe it might be to get out
Speaker 1: of debt or to save up enough money for a
Speaker 1: down payment on a home. What we need to do
Speaker 1: is just to make sure that we have clearly identified
Speaker 1: what game it is that we want to play and
Speaker 1: what our specific challenge will be. This is so vital
Speaker 1: to making progress with our money because dude, after all,
Speaker 1: like who cares to win a game that they wouldn't
Speaker 1: even naturally choose. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I think.
Speaker 1: All right, let's give an example to kind of help
Speaker 1: connect the dots. So I think, when it comes to
Speaker 1: our money, you're not competing with those around you. And
Speaker 1: that's really really important to remember. Even though competition is
Speaker 1: these one one of these main elements in gaming and
Speaker 1: the things that we enjoy about gaming, Well, when it
Speaker 1: comes to money, with take a different approach. You're competing
Speaker 1: with yourself. It's not who has the nicest car, it's
Speaker 1: the You have to think more along the lines of
Speaker 1: I have a dumb car payment and I want to
Speaker 1: pay it off as quickly as possible. Right, you have
Speaker 1: to reframe things, and so how do you do that. Well,
Speaker 1: you do that by potentially gamifying the way you make payments,
Speaker 1: and so, like, one way to do that is to
Speaker 1: round up your payments. So let's say your car payment
Speaker 1: every month is bucks. Well, if you can round it
Speaker 1: up to a solid even number of four hundred bucks,
Speaker 1: you're going to pay it off more quickly. You're going
Speaker 1: to avoid some of those interest payments, and ultimately you're
Speaker 1: going to own your car much more quickly than you
Speaker 1: would have had you stuck to just the normal payment amount.
Speaker 1: So I think it's important to note that there are
Speaker 1: different ways that you can implement this into your life.
Speaker 1: But more than anything, you have to realize that the
Speaker 1: competition is not with the people around you, because if
Speaker 1: you do that, that is when, like you said, Matt,
Speaker 1: it's going to be this keeping up with the Jones mentality,
Speaker 1: because really, more than anything, it's a competition with yourself
Speaker 1: as you're striving after your goals for your future. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another example I'm thinking of two is you know how,
Speaker 1: like a lot of utilities have budget billing like that
Speaker 1: as an option where it's really even and it's the
Speaker 1: same every month. But what they do is that they
Speaker 1: build in the fact that they know that there's gonna
Speaker 1: be some months that are really low and there's also
Speaker 1: gonna be some months that are really high, and so
Speaker 1: they're gonna make sure that they cover all of that.
Speaker 1: And so instead, one of the things that you and
Speaker 1: I both like to do is make sure that we
Speaker 1: are receiving our bills delivered to us where we have
Speaker 1: to pay it manually. And this kind of goes against
Speaker 1: a lot of the advice out there as far as
Speaker 1: automating your bills. But you and I both are in
Speaker 1: a position where you know, we can afford a little
Speaker 1: bit of time to pay bills manually. And when you're
Speaker 1: faced with that bill and you see the cost of
Speaker 1: your power, you see the cost of your electricity, or
Speaker 1: you see your water bill. Like for me, like, if
Speaker 1: I can keep my water bill at six and if
Speaker 1: I cannot let it jump up to that next tier
Speaker 1: of eighty eight bucks, that's a win for Me've won.
Speaker 1: I've won exactly. But when I see it go up
Speaker 1: to that eighty eight bucks, I think, oh, you win
Speaker 1: this time, Watershed of Atlanta. But I'm coming for you
Speaker 1: next month. Right, Yeah, we're all about automating your finances.
Speaker 1: Like I think that's you know, that's something we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about soon. Automation is key to our success when
Speaker 1: it comes to our finances. But but one of the
Speaker 1: ways that you can gamify things. I like to look
Speaker 1: at every bill in the face every month, and one
Speaker 1: of those things that I don't sign up for his
Speaker 1: budget billing, and that's because I want to get the bill.
Speaker 1: I want to get my heating bill in the winner
Speaker 1: in January or February, and I want to see, Okay,
Speaker 1: how much did I spend this month? And you know what,
Speaker 1: if I spent more than I like when I see
Speaker 1: the bill and it gives me that tiny bit of
Speaker 1: bill shock, it makes me want to lower the thermostat.
Speaker 1: It makes me want to make a behavioral change. And
Speaker 1: I think sometimes if you choose the budget billing and
Speaker 1: it's a constant bill every single month for the whole year,
Speaker 1: it doesn't force you to kind of come to grips
Speaker 1: with reality and then make it behavioral change based on
Speaker 1: what you've seen. And so I mean, everybody can make
Speaker 1: their own decision on this, but I think that's a
Speaker 1: good way of helping you kind of gamify things, is
Speaker 1: by looking those bills in the face every single month
Speaker 1: and then being forced to make on the fly behavioral
Speaker 1: changes in order to to help you lower those expenses,
Speaker 1: lower those bills. Yeah, that's right, Like this is an
Speaker 1: instance where it's good to feel that hurt, you know,
Speaker 1: like like you don't want to be on a constant
Speaker 1: drip of morphine where you don't feel the pain. You're
Speaker 1: not gonna feel the consequences of your actions. Yeah for sure.
Speaker 1: All right, Joe. So we're talking about other people, right,
Speaker 1: We're talking about how the competition are not the people
Speaker 1: who are around us. But when you're playing a game,
Speaker 1: there are times when the people around you can actually
Speaker 1: help help you in a positive and affirming way, and
Speaker 1: that's when you're on the same side. Working together is
Speaker 1: crucial for any team sport out there, and aside from
Speaker 1: team sports, is even crucial for like some nerdy your
Speaker 1: board games like Pandemic or even Dungeons and Dragons, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, did you ever played Dungeons D and
Speaker 1: D as a kid? Never played it? But uh and
Speaker 1: I always thought it was kind of like super nerdy.
Speaker 1: But I think I don't know. I've heard some good
Speaker 1: stuff about it, and I think I'd give it a shot.
Speaker 1: The thing is at the core of working together on
Speaker 1: a team is communicating and working together to achieve that
Speaker 1: shared goal, that common goal. Yeah for sure. I mean
Speaker 1: teamwork is is huge and and that's one of the
Speaker 1: things we love about games, right. I love watching soccer.
Speaker 1: I love the way a team can pass the ball.
Speaker 1: I think, honestly, that's the first thing that attracted me
Speaker 1: to soccer was the incredible passing abilities of some of
Speaker 1: the guys on the field, and it was like, oh man,
Speaker 1: this is a really neat team sport. Uh. And so yeah, money.
Speaker 1: When it comes to our money, the same can be true.
Speaker 1: Teamwork can have a major impact. Step one is to
Speaker 1: talk about our finances and how we're spending, saving, and investing.
Speaker 1: Like Matt, we're big advocates for people opening their mouths
Speaker 1: with their friends and family and talking about money more
Speaker 1: and making it less of a taboo topic. But let's
Speaker 1: take it to the next level. Think about how much
Speaker 1: we'd be able to help each other out by asking
Speaker 1: more questions, by giving specific advice, and supporting each other
Speaker 1: when times are tough. Connecting with your partner or a
Speaker 1: good friend in real life, I mean, that's ideal, that's perfect,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. And if you're both able to set some
Speaker 1: shared goals like paying down student loans or saving up
Speaker 1: enough for a great trip for some travel, well, how
Speaker 1: much more impactful is that When you have a teammate
Speaker 1: on your side. It feels like you're fulfilling this even
Speaker 1: bigger goal and you're doing it with someone else. Uh
Speaker 1: And Matt We've mentioned a couple of apps before that
Speaker 1: make it even more helpful. Like we're talking about gamification,
Speaker 1: sometimes apps and websites are really helpful on our road
Speaker 1: to UH gamifying our personal finance life. The Twine app
Speaker 1: is great for helping couples safer goals together, and Zeta
Speaker 1: is another really good one. Will link to both of
Speaker 1: those in the show notes. UH and finding online communities
Speaker 1: is clutched as well. Our Facebook group is a great
Speaker 1: place where we're individuals are working together as this kind
Speaker 1: of massive hive mind to help each other out. I
Speaker 1: love seeing that, man. I love that people are able
Speaker 1: to kind of spur each other on, encourage each other,
Speaker 1: and then also answer questions. I think collaboration allows this
Speaker 1: potential for outside success. We can kind of accomplish more
Speaker 1: together than we can apart. Yeah, it's so great about it.
Speaker 1: You're sharing knowledge, but there's that accountability as well, and
Speaker 1: that's just such a key component of getting stuff done.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk about some more of the different
Speaker 1: addictive components that make games so fun, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: get to those right after the break. All right, Matt,
Speaker 1: we're back to the break. We're talking about gamification. We're
Speaker 1: talking about what makes games fun and how we can
Speaker 1: apply those principles to our personal finances. And you just
Speaker 1: mentioned a really interesting word right before the break you
Speaker 1: what did I say? You said, addicted? And it's really interesting.
Speaker 1: We're in an age where people are a did to
Speaker 1: certain games. Like I think about Fortnite. I thought, you're
Speaker 1: gonna call me out with my desktop Tower defense because
Speaker 1: there was a period where I think I would have
Speaker 1: qualified as addicted to that thing. Well, I don't think
Speaker 1: you're playing it still to this day, but I have
Speaker 1: to admit that in quote unquote researching for this episode,
Speaker 1: I thought, I wonder if that thing is still up. Yep,
Speaker 1: it is, and you played it for a few hours.
Speaker 1: I sat down to it for about thirty minutes. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, just remember a shame to say, but remember
Speaker 1: when Words with Friends was hot like that that was
Speaker 1: I mean, people were addicted to it. They were pulling
Speaker 1: it out in the bathroom, they were pulling it out
Speaker 1: at the dinner table, they were pulling it out all
Speaker 1: over the place, and and so yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: think games can have this addictive component, and I think
Speaker 1: we can take some of those best elements of the
Speaker 1: addictive component of games and apply that to our money
Speaker 1: where it's healthy and not destructive exactly exactly and not
Speaker 1: being used in a terrible way that actually ruins us.
Speaker 1: And Yeah, one of those major things that games do
Speaker 1: for us is is this achievability element. There are levels
Speaker 1: to a game for a reason. Right there. It's breaking
Speaker 1: up these larger goals. There are many bosses along the
Speaker 1: way that you get to beat up until you get
Speaker 1: to the big boss. Nobody wants to play something that
Speaker 1: they're never going to win, that game that they're never
Speaker 1: gonna win, that's too hard. Well, you just mentioned soccer
Speaker 1: a second ago. This makes me think of America and soccer,
Speaker 1: and I've heard that that's one of the big arguments
Speaker 1: why people think that soccer is not going to take
Speaker 1: in the US and why basically hasn't taken up until
Speaker 1: maybe recently. But like, who wants to play a sport
Speaker 1: that you can't win or that you're not very good at? Right,
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, they tied at the end. What that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking that that's not American, right. I
Speaker 1: remember thinking the exact same thing, you know, when I
Speaker 1: first got introduced to soccer. I was like, that's stupid.
Speaker 1: In America, we win or we lose, right, Yeah, so true, man,
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of people are not going
Speaker 1: to be able to get excited about something that they're
Speaker 1: not going to be able to win at. And I
Speaker 1: think when we're talking about personal finances, this is a
Speaker 1: game that all of us can win in one degree
Speaker 1: or another. Like we can all do better with our
Speaker 1: personal finances, and that's what makes this I think we
Speaker 1: can use this kind of these gamification elements to give
Speaker 1: us small winds along the way that lead to kind
Speaker 1: of this ability to achieve something even bigger. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: want to win, or like we at least want to
Speaker 1: see some progress, like like some of those baby steps.
Speaker 1: If you can see progress, like a lot of times,
Speaker 1: that's all that it takes. But in regards to our money,
Speaker 1: we have to balance that challenge of a particular money
Speaker 1: goal with the likelihood of us actually being able to
Speaker 1: achieve that goal. We need to be realistic and actually
Speaker 1: ask ourselves, like, is this even doable? Can I own
Speaker 1: six testlas? Uh? Maybe it just depends gonna take a while,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I'll not know. Like you might want to
Speaker 1: become a billionaire, But really, what are the chances of
Speaker 1: that actually happening? And while that's important to consider, even
Speaker 1: a modest goal like saving up enough money to pay
Speaker 1: for a new car, just a new use car that's
Speaker 1: not a Tesla in cash, like, even that can feel insurmountable.
Speaker 1: But the trick is to actually break it up into
Speaker 1: smaller steps that you can actually make some progress on.
Speaker 1: This actually makes me think of Joe My. We're talking
Speaker 1: about soccer here. The US is going to be hosting
Speaker 1: the World Cup in right, and I looked up last year.
Speaker 1: I looked up some of the average ticket prices of
Speaker 1: what the World Cup tickets were going for in Russia,
Speaker 1: and I figured that it might cost our family if
Speaker 1: we wanted to go to just like a standard match,
Speaker 1: like one of the I don't know, maybe one of
Speaker 1: the group matches or maybe one of the semis. It
Speaker 1: might cost our family about three thousand dollars to go
Speaker 1: to a single soccer game, which sounds pretty dumb, right, Like,
Speaker 1: that sounds pretty ludicrous and that sounds totally overwhelming, Like
Speaker 1: how can you justify that? But be how do you
Speaker 1: actually save that much money? That's also kind of a
Speaker 1: once in a lifetime thing, right, Like I remember when
Speaker 1: the Olympics were in Atlanta. I got to go to
Speaker 1: one basketball games and it was so cool. Like the
Speaker 1: fact that I got to go to an Olympic that's
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Sporting event is one of those things that
Speaker 1: almost nobody gets to do. It's so cool to think
Speaker 1: that that happens. So it's really expensive, but it's also
Speaker 1: something that might be on somebody's like bucket list. Understandable exactly.
Speaker 1: If that's something you value, then you want to make
Speaker 1: sure that you're taking the steps to make that a
Speaker 1: priority in your life. But the fact is it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter who you are. Well, I guess it does matter
Speaker 1: who you are, But if you're a normal person like us,
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars to take your family to a match
Speaker 1: seems ridiculous a single match, But if you do the math,
Speaker 1: we'll have a little over six years before the World
Speaker 1: Cup is upon us. And if you break that out
Speaker 1: to how much we would need to set aside every month,
Speaker 1: it's about thirty five bucks And that sounds doable, exactly,
Speaker 1: Like that's what's so crazy is that this massive, audacious
Speaker 1: goal of saving three thousand dollars to go to the
Speaker 1: World Cup. Well, all of a sudden, it seems like nothing.
Speaker 1: Thirty five bucks is totally doable, and at the same time,
Speaker 1: it's not something that feels overwhelming to me. I feel
Speaker 1: that that's something I can actually make progress on. I
Speaker 1: can handle all those little levels of adding thirty five
Speaker 1: bucks to that pot, you know, month after month. But
Speaker 1: if all of a sudden I had to show out
Speaker 1: three grand, it's probably not gonna happen, or it's just
Speaker 1: gonna really stress me out. Yeah, it's a good point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: breaking up that larger goal into smaller chunks is gamifying
Speaker 1: the process. That makes it so much more feasible and
Speaker 1: so much more fun too, to be like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I can do it and and to start actually going
Speaker 1: for it. And Matt, it makes me think too about
Speaker 1: Back in the episode, we talked to our friend j
Speaker 1: d Roth, who writes at the site Get Rich Slowly,
Speaker 1: and we talked for a little bit about the stages
Speaker 1: of financial independence and if we think about those stages
Speaker 1: as levels in a game, well, they can help our
Speaker 1: approach and accelerate our ability to move more quickly through
Speaker 1: those stages. And the question then is how well mental
Speaker 1: shifts are so huge in helping us actually create change
Speaker 1: in our lives. So if we're thinking of our personal
Speaker 1: finances in a more gamelike fashion, it will make a
Speaker 1: big difference in how we handle our money. In those
Speaker 1: stages are so helpful in visualizing our future and what
Speaker 1: it can look like. If we think about financial independence
Speaker 1: on kind of this long extended timeline, and that we're
Speaker 1: achieving a little bit more of it over time as
Speaker 1: we put more aside for the future and we invest
Speaker 1: more in our retirement accounts and we're just generally doing
Speaker 1: better with our money. That's so much easier to comprehend
Speaker 1: than this zero to one overnight kind of thing. Right,
Speaker 1: It's the exact same thing as saving up for that
Speaker 1: World Cup match. That thirty five dollars a month feels
Speaker 1: so different than a three thousand dollar bill that hits
Speaker 1: you right then and there. And so yeah, I think stages,
Speaker 1: process goals being broken up over time are huge and
Speaker 1: helping us handle money better. Yeah, it's a much easier
Speaker 1: pill to swallow. And man, that's something that stuck with
Speaker 1: me as well when j D was talking about those
Speaker 1: different stages well, becoming financially independent, that sounds like this
Speaker 1: huge thing that I would never be able to accomplish.
Speaker 1: Like it sounds like climbing kill him and jarro or
Speaker 1: something like that, doesn't it like with your eyes clothes
Speaker 1: or something like, you know, like it just seems so impossible.
Speaker 1: And I know we're not alone. I think for a
Speaker 1: lot of folks, it really does just seem like this
Speaker 1: insurmountable obstacle, this this challenge that's just too big, and
Speaker 1: when that happens, they can shut us down and it
Speaker 1: keeps us from moving forward at all. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: just kind of breaking it up into these smaller, bite
Speaker 1: sized chunks will allow us to make progress. And when
Speaker 1: we make progress, we see that traction, we see that progress,
Speaker 1: and it allows us to continue on and fight that
Speaker 1: good fight. Yeah. So there's this guy named James Clear
Speaker 1: and he writes about habits, and one thing he says
Speaker 1: is that getting one percent better every day is kind
Speaker 1: of his goal. And he talks about how just getting
Speaker 1: one percent better in a day like that seems like
Speaker 1: it's not that important, but when you compound a getting
Speaker 1: one percent better over sixty five days of that year,
Speaker 1: if you do it every day, then ultimately the end,
Speaker 1: you're so much better off than if you had never
Speaker 1: taken that action in the first place. And so I
Speaker 1: think sometimes when we when we're able to kind of
Speaker 1: think about it like that, these small changes over a
Speaker 1: long period of time, that they make a really huge difference.
Speaker 1: Seeing a little progress in a game, it just reinforces
Speaker 1: our desire to participate in that game. Seeing your debt
Speaker 1: level drop because you're rounding up your payments is a
Speaker 1: great reinforcement too, and it kind of almost, Matt, I think,
Speaker 1: becomes this like self fulfilling prophecy. And so I think
Speaker 1: one thing that we can do a specific kind of
Speaker 1: method of gamification that we can adopt in our financial
Speaker 1: life is to create a list of I call them
Speaker 1: like level ups and attempting to do one a month.
Speaker 1: When when you say level up, I hear like the
Speaker 1: sound of when you get the mushroom and Mario Brothers
Speaker 1: or you or no, you like and when you hit
Speaker 1: the flag and you slide down the flagpole like yeah.
Speaker 1: But I think, yeah, if we can do these level ups,
Speaker 1: these are the even bigger things that we can accomplish.
Speaker 1: And if we set ourselves up for success by choosing
Speaker 1: to tackle one a month, right, that's not that's not
Speaker 1: too much, that's not overkill. Well, then I think that
Speaker 1: it's going to have a massive impact. So one month,
Speaker 1: let's say January, you designed to switch self Hope providers
Speaker 1: and and find a much cheaper service and save yourself
Speaker 1: a hundred plus dollars a month. That's a great level up, Like,
Speaker 1: that's a big difference that you can make in your life.
Speaker 1: In February, if you haven't opened an I ra A yet,
Speaker 1: well that's the next thing to do. And so opening
Speaker 1: up an account with the Guard Fidelity or in one
Speaker 1: gets you motivated and you start to to see the
Speaker 1: progress of that hundred dollars a month that you're starting
Speaker 1: to put in there a crew and make a bigger difference.
Speaker 1: You're starting to see the progress while seeing your balance
Speaker 1: build only increases your motivation level and it really does
Speaker 1: become this thing that just kind of continues to feed
Speaker 1: on itself. Yeah, something else that folks can do is
Speaker 1: instituting a no spend month. Something like that can jump
Speaker 1: start or even supercharge your savings and curb some of
Speaker 1: that unnecessary spending. The reason for this is because like
Speaker 1: it's it's hard, or it's it's even unrealistic, to make
Speaker 1: cuts like that for an entire year, right, Like, who's
Speaker 1: gonna be able to do that? Just not really possible.
Speaker 1: But if you try to do that for a single month,
Speaker 1: well man, that is totally achievable. In these smaller achievable
Speaker 1: winds can also help us to feel more optimistic. So
Speaker 1: you could even apply that to like one area of
Speaker 1: spending in your life. If you've had trouble spending too
Speaker 1: much eating out. You're spending two or fifty bucks a
Speaker 1: month eating out, and you're like, man, we gotta curb
Speaker 1: this something that we like, but we really want to
Speaker 1: kind of curb that spending in our life. Well, you
Speaker 1: know it, take February. Uh, it's a shorter month, which
Speaker 1: makes it just a little bit easier to three days easier. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: And so you know what, you say, We're not gonna
Speaker 1: eat out for all of February. We're gonna save that
Speaker 1: two or fifty bucks and we're gonna bank it towards
Speaker 1: something that we we really want to save for, or
Speaker 1: even open that investment account that we haven't opened yet.
Speaker 1: I think a no spend month in a particular category
Speaker 1: or kind of overall, not spending anything online or whatever.
Speaker 1: These are the kind of challenges that probably aren't sustainable
Speaker 1: over a long period of time, but they can be
Speaker 1: kind of that jump start, like that game Genie to
Speaker 1: kind of help us get going right, because that game
Speaker 1: Gennie was the worst to kind of forbe like sucked
Speaker 1: all the fun of it because there was no there's
Speaker 1: no more challenge, right, Okay, maybe it's the Mario Star
Speaker 1: when you get the Star and like you can't get
Speaker 1: shells can't hit you. Yeah, you can run through the
Speaker 1: whole level without getting hit for at least a period
Speaker 1: of time, exactly. All right, Let's talk about an aspect
Speaker 1: of games make them fun that everyone's pretty much aware of,
Speaker 1: which is the reward, the goal or the prize at
Speaker 1: the end of the game. Part of what makes any
Speaker 1: game so fun in addictive is the fact that there's
Speaker 1: gonna be some sort of fantastic price at the end
Speaker 1: of the slock. You know, we're talking about Mario Brothers here,
Speaker 1: thinking about beating Bowser at the end of Mario Brothers three.
Speaker 1: Can you feel the fireballs like it wasn't passion? Is
Speaker 1: your heart pounding because you're afraid you're gonna die? Yeah?
Speaker 1: The Cortisol is pumping through my blood. You know, we
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't play any game if there wasn't a final
Speaker 1: reward or a feeling of accomplishment that came with beating
Speaker 1: the game. And so when it comes to our personal finances,
Speaker 1: the final reward might be, you know, a massive down
Speaker 1: payment for a house, or maybe paying off your student loans,
Speaker 1: or maybe even the ultimate goal, which is achieving financial independence.
Speaker 1: But we often don't celebrate these smaller wins and these milestones.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking of things like just maybe paying off
Speaker 1: a specific credit card debt or even setting up a
Speaker 1: basic emergency fund. These are wins that we achieve, but
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily recognize them like we do when you
Speaker 1: hit financial independence, or maybe when you buy that house,
Speaker 1: because when you buy that house, you throw up, you know,
Speaker 1: a housewarming party, and it feels like you've accomplished something.
Speaker 1: These smaller goals and these smaller rewards along the way,
Speaker 1: I think are so crucial. So rewarding ourselves in small
Speaker 1: ways along the way, it's so important as we continue
Speaker 1: up the mountain towards whatever larger financial goals that we
Speaker 1: might have. So for example, Man, sometimes it's just the
Speaker 1: small things like Sometimes those rewards are huge, and those
Speaker 1: are the things that are impactful, like winning a super Bowl.
Speaker 1: But for me, sometimes it's the small things that they
Speaker 1: go a long way. Every time I up the percentage,
Speaker 1: for instance, in in my company four oh one K
Speaker 1: on the Vanguard website, streamers fly and it says like
Speaker 1: the big congratulations and then they send me an email afterwards. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes me feel so good man, I'm like, all right,
Speaker 1: I did I did something great. Yeah. It's it's it's
Speaker 1: like a little dopamine release. What you're doing there is
Speaker 1: you're realizing it emotionally. You know in your head cognitively
Speaker 1: that that's what you're supposed to do. But by having
Speaker 1: that little reward, like the little streamers that kind of
Speaker 1: flash across and like the con eddie that drips down
Speaker 1: your screen, like you're feeling that in a very small
Speaker 1: and digital way, but you're still feeling it emotionally. And
Speaker 1: that's I think what's so important. And that's what celebrating
Speaker 1: things is all about. Right. It's it's not saying that cool,
Speaker 1: you did a good job. It's like, well I know that.
Speaker 1: But a celebration or a party or a small reward,
Speaker 1: we're not talking about going out and blowing all the
Speaker 1: money that you've saved, but that connects it to you emotionally.
Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of what's missing in our
Speaker 1: world today, right, Like we live in such a culture
Speaker 1: that is so focused on performance and hitting goals and
Speaker 1: quotas and things like that. But the thing is, as
Speaker 1: soon as we hit those things, what happens we set
Speaker 1: the next one exactly Like typically the bar gets raised,
Speaker 1: and we don't often spend a lot of time celebrating.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying we need to sit around patting
Speaker 1: ourselves on the back all the time, but I think
Speaker 1: if we can actually recognize that, man, something significant was
Speaker 1: accomplished here, that's we're celebrating, and those little rewards along
Speaker 1: the way can help us to achieve those larger financial goals.
Speaker 1: I think when you don't celebrate those little financial wins,
Speaker 1: I think that's when people get burned out. Right. If
Speaker 1: you're constantly just on this march and you're not really
Speaker 1: looking up, you're just got your nose to the grindstone,
Speaker 1: you're just working hard, well, I think someone has a
Speaker 1: better chance of burning out in that kind of situation
Speaker 1: and then ultimately not actually achieving the financial goals that
Speaker 1: they've set out to achieve. Thrown in the towel completely,
Speaker 1: and yeah, man, it's amazing to me for some reason
Speaker 1: that this little Vanguard stream I mean, it's their websites. Honestly,
Speaker 1: it's very terrible. It's not very usual friendly, and the
Speaker 1: streamers are kind of They're still a fantastic company. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and we recommend them completely. They're great, but the streamers
Speaker 1: are so like two thousand three at the graphics are
Speaker 1: not good. But it's amazing that that sticks out in
Speaker 1: my mind that they kind of encourage me in that
Speaker 1: way and that it is important, Like it is important
Speaker 1: how they do that, and these little behavioral things that
Speaker 1: do connect to you, and on a deeper level, these small,
Speaker 1: small rewards that are seemingly insignificant can be super meaningful
Speaker 1: in just kind of helping us to continue moving forward. Man,
Speaker 1: I gotta say, it makes me wonder if I hit
Speaker 1: some sort of like let's say I completely max out
Speaker 1: my four one K, or I hit like a certain percentage,
Speaker 1: if they've got these like streamers that I haven't seen
Speaker 1: yet that are even better, right, Like they're they're only
Speaker 1: giving me the basic ones now for for being like
Speaker 1: a solid saver. But you know what, if you hit
Speaker 1: the complete nineteen max, maybe they've got these like super
Speaker 1: dope streamers. Yeah, like the batalic confetti, so like shines
Speaker 1: a little extra on your screen there. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think they they're holding something back once I hit that point. Well, So,
Speaker 1: like we're talking about the different aspects that the different
Speaker 1: elements that make games fun, that make them addictive, like
Speaker 1: we said earlier, and we think this is really important
Speaker 1: that if we can identify these things and kind of
Speaker 1: bridge the gap a little bit between these fun games,
Speaker 1: the things that we find enjoyable and our money in
Speaker 1: our personal finances, that we can also make our personal
Speaker 1: finances more enjoyable and something that we will give more
Speaker 1: attention to. But it's also important to note that gamification
Speaker 1: can only get you so far. Right, maybe due to
Speaker 1: your personality type, you're really into games and you can
Speaker 1: get austin the fun of it. But for a lot
Speaker 1: of folks, maybe the novelty will weigh at times or
Speaker 1: even completely wear off. And so when this happens, it's
Speaker 1: really important to have an overarching mission statement. Joel, you
Speaker 1: know you kind of mentioned the why behind your money.
Speaker 1: That is a really important thing to have. Having that
Speaker 1: storyline that transcends the elements of simple gamification that you've
Speaker 1: been able to work in your personal finances, that storyline
Speaker 1: that will help to revitalize you when you're filling down
Speaker 1: or maybe when you feel like that you're not winning
Speaker 1: when it comes to your money. Yeah, of course, Matt
Speaker 1: it it is essential for us to go back and
Speaker 1: think about the underlying things, that the goals, that ultimate
Speaker 1: goals that we have, the ultimate why behind our money,
Speaker 1: the mission statement that we want to live our lives by.
Speaker 1: But the reason that gamification is important is that it
Speaker 1: can really meet us at the level of implementation, and
Speaker 1: gamification can be this massive boon to our ability to
Speaker 1: stick to those goals of saving more and eliminating debt.
Speaker 1: And it can also just help money stuff in general
Speaker 1: feel less frustrating. These small ways in which we can
Speaker 1: amend our behavior or change our approach can help us
Speaker 1: make really big money moves this year that we otherwise
Speaker 1: might not have been able to do. So, Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: interested to hear how other people gamify their money, like
Speaker 1: the the tools that they're using and the ways that
Speaker 1: they're adapting their behavior. And so, yeah, if you have
Speaker 1: some specific ways that you're gamifying your money in a
Speaker 1: really massive way, or that you've been able to make
Speaker 1: massive changes through kind of some gamification techniques, please share
Speaker 1: those in the Facebook group for all of us to see,
Speaker 1: because that kind of stuff is so helpful. Matt and
Speaker 1: I we don't know at all. We don't know all
Speaker 1: the ways to gamify our money, but but we do
Speaker 1: know that it's an important method for us to consider. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and different methods work for different people as well. So
Speaker 1: something that might work for one person, like rounding up
Speaker 1: their car payment, well that sounds like a fantastic idea
Speaker 1: to somebody, right, they're gonna be able to get another
Speaker 1: couple of payments in and pay that car off early.
Speaker 1: But to somebody else that may not resonate as well.
Speaker 1: So for that person, that's who we want to hear from.
Speaker 1: We want to hear some of those other tricks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. All right, let's get back to the year
Speaker 1: that we had on the show today. We had a
Speaker 1: lovely beer from modern times called astral Prism. This is
Speaker 1: a double I p A sent to us by my
Speaker 1: buddy Craig, who's a brewer out there, Matt, what were
Speaker 1: your thoughts on this beer? Well, Joel, I have to
Speaker 1: say that I am a massive fan of this beer.
Speaker 1: Monern Times man, they've just got my number. The way
Speaker 1: that they make their beers completely and totally resonate with me.
Speaker 1: This double I PA to me is really good. It
Speaker 1: has this massive hot presence, but it's not this this
Speaker 1: happiness that leads to bitterness. It's pretty sweet. But the
Speaker 1: hops they make themselves known with the pungent nature, you know,
Speaker 1: like the herbally nous. But this is a really fantastic
Speaker 1: beer poured nice and hazy. This is the type of
Speaker 1: I PA for mama that's just completely in my wheelhouse.
Speaker 1: How about you? What were your thoughts on this beer? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I thought for a double I PA, it was pretty
Speaker 1: mellow in like a really good way. Like it definitely
Speaker 1: tons of hot presence, but it was so nicely balanced
Speaker 1: that it wasn't like punching me in the mouth in
Speaker 1: any sort of crazy ways. And it had some notes
Speaker 1: of guava. Obviously we have a lot of i pas
Speaker 1: on the show. I thought this one was super tasty.
Speaker 1: I love what Modern Times is doing. They make a
Speaker 1: ton of I p a s I don't know if
Speaker 1: you'd even be possible in our lifetime to drink them all.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's a little bit of an overtatement.
Speaker 1: But but but they make that many. I mean, you
Speaker 1: just wait there, dedicated to the craft of making tons
Speaker 1: of great i pas, and this one was just a
Speaker 1: really good representation of what they're really really good at
Speaker 1: of making something that is like juicy but mellow, tasty,
Speaker 1: a little sweet, and just incredibly appetizing. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: really appreciated this beer astral prism for modern times. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you and I were lucky enough to swing by the
Speaker 1: Dankness Dojo and that what their what their spaces called
Speaker 1: down there in downtown l A. We're out there last year,
Speaker 1: and uh yeah, we're a big fan of what they're doing.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned aguava. That's that's pretty astute. I feel
Speaker 1: like I totally can't pick up on some like some
Speaker 1: more tropical fruit flavor notes there. I totally dig that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: don't mess with my palette, bro. All right, that's gonna
Speaker 1: be it for this episode. Really fun Matt talk about
Speaker 1: gamification with you, and we'll have links to some of
Speaker 1: the apps and some of the sites that we mentioned
Speaker 1: up on our website at how to money dot com. Yeah, Juel.
Speaker 1: Speaking of the website, we've got that credit card article
Speaker 1: up there talking about the best credit cards to use
Speaker 1: depending on how you spend your money. We recently updated
Speaker 1: that and so we'd recommend for folks to check that
Speaker 1: out if you're considering getting a new credit card. We're
Speaker 1: hoping to be able to provide more helpful information on
Speaker 1: the website this year, and a lot of the cards
Speaker 1: that we discussed there, they've got some great sign up bonuses,
Speaker 1: and so if you were to sign up for a
Speaker 1: credit card via that article and via those links, it
Speaker 1: helps out the show. At the same time, everybody that's
Speaker 1: gonna be it for this episode is that it? That's it,
Speaker 1: all right, until next time, best Friends as Friends Out