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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I'm Matts,

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Speaker 1: and today we're discussing how to level up your money

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Speaker 1: with gamification. Yep, man, we're gonna talk about gamification. You know,

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Speaker 1: every time I see that word written out, I want

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Speaker 1: to say gammafication like a Gamma ray. Yeah, like Gamma

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Speaker 1: rays exactly, because that sounds more fun and games are fun.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, well, gamification in and of itself is fun. Rights,

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Speaker 1: so can we play games of our finances to do better?

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Speaker 1: That's what we're gonna get into. That's what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about. Man. Before we do that, we came across

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Speaker 1: this article about all these new mattress companies and the

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Speaker 1: return policy. You want to dive into it a little bit, sure, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So instead of gamification, what people are doing is gaming

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Speaker 1: the system of these mattress companies. And there are these beautiful,

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Speaker 1: wonderful free a hundred night or more trials that a

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Speaker 1: lot of these new mattress companies offered. These bed in

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Speaker 1: the box. They ship it to your house and you

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Speaker 1: test it out and you see whether you like it

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Speaker 1: or not. Like Casper was at the forefront of this, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are all sorts of companies out there

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Speaker 1: now that will ship you a needle. Yeah, there's Avocado,

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Speaker 1: aren't they like one of the primo ones they are? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think so. I can't show up for that, dude, right, right.

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Speaker 1: But the cool thing is because people are like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know you, I'm not sat on your bed, like

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Speaker 1: I can't tell whether it's good or not. These companies,

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Speaker 1: in order to build confidence and for people to actually

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Speaker 1: make the purchase and give it a try, well, they

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Speaker 1: needed to have a great return policy. And I love

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Speaker 1: that that exists, Like, that's such a nice way to

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Speaker 1: buy something with that peace of mind. Certainly. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a perfect solution to a problem when you have an

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Speaker 1: online retail model, right, And so specifically, if you are

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Speaker 1: looking to buy a mattress and you're genuinely wanting to

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Speaker 1: try it out, support the one month free trial or

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Speaker 1: three months free trial or even one year. There there's

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Speaker 1: one example where this one company has a full sixty

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Speaker 1: five day return policy. Is incredible, very incredible, so incredible

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Speaker 1: that people are completely taking advantage of that situation sleeping

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Speaker 1: on the bed for free for anywhere between a month

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Speaker 1: and a full year and sending that junk back. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people think about that. What people quoted

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Speaker 1: in the article said, you never have to buy mattress again.

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Speaker 1: Basically what you do is you just get a new

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Speaker 1: one every three months by returning the one and just

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Speaker 1: saying that you you didn't like it or wasn't up

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Speaker 1: to your standards or whatever. And I think what's gonna

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Speaker 1: happen is is that these generous return policies, these generous

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Speaker 1: trials are going to end because of the people that

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Speaker 1: are gaming the system. And it's unfortunate because it's a

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Speaker 1: great new business model. It's a great way to get

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Speaker 1: a bed, and there are some great companies out there

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Speaker 1: with great customer service that are trying to take care

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Speaker 1: of people that actually want to buy a new bed.

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Speaker 1: And these people are going to ruin it for everyone.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna ruin that free trial period. It's just like,

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Speaker 1: didn't Costco have to like kind of go back on

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Speaker 1: their return policy where they they said they would take anything,

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Speaker 1: but then folks started bringing back ridiculous stuff. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: Costco still has an amazing return policy. The thing they

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Speaker 1: had to tweak was how they accepted electronics returns because

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Speaker 1: people would come back and say, I'm returning this desktop

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Speaker 1: computer from two thousand and five because because you know what,

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Speaker 1: not because it's it's bad. I got my use out

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Speaker 1: of it, it's been great, but it turns out they're

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Speaker 1: way way cheaper now and way way better, and so

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Speaker 1: I'd like to return my money back. Yeah, I like

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Speaker 1: the five thousand dollars I spent on this desktop computer,

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna buy a four one now and so

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Speaker 1: that that's five times faster. Again, that's that's an example

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Speaker 1: of people gaming the system, not using it for what

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Speaker 1: it's supposed to be used for. And so I have

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Speaker 1: no problem if someone returning a mattress because they say

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Speaker 1: it wasn't great, but I genuinely wanted to give it

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Speaker 1: a try. I really thought I might actually keep it.

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Speaker 1: And the same thing with something like Costco. If you're

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Speaker 1: going to buy something and return it because it wasn't

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Speaker 1: up the snuff for you had a problem, that's totally fine.

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Speaker 1: But gaming the system like that is just in my mind,

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Speaker 1: that's cheap. That's not frugal. Yeah, this is a great

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Speaker 1: example of frugal versus cheap, which, dude, by the way,

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Speaker 1: we need to do more frugal verse cheaps. I feel

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Speaker 1: like we've kind of fallen off the wagon a little bit,

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Speaker 1: so maybe maybe this year we can revitalize that a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But yeah, I feel like this is a

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Speaker 1: perfect example of someone being cheap, not frugal, and specifically,

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Speaker 1: I think a big part of that is obviously folks

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Speaker 1: are not being perfectly honest as well, right, but just

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Speaker 1: all the waste that's involved as well, Like, that's the

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Speaker 1: biggest thing that kind of bothers me is that there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of states where they're not allowed or they

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Speaker 1: don't allow themselves to resell these you know, quote unquote

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Speaker 1: used mattresses or even give them away, like they have

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Speaker 1: to be thrown in the trash. And it's such a

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Speaker 1: shame because that's a lot of waste. These barely used

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Speaker 1: mattresses would would be great in serving uh folks in

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Speaker 1: in areas that where there's a lot of poverty, where

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Speaker 1: where the homeless shelters lots of application. There could be

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Speaker 1: so many great uses for these gently used mattresses, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of these guidelines and understandable, right, there could

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Speaker 1: be bed bugs or something like that, Like mattresses are

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Speaker 1: kind of one of those items that buying used. You

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Speaker 1: have to be aware, so I understand the rules, but

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a shame. And I think this makes

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Speaker 1: it even more of a shame because we know a

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Speaker 1: lot of those mattresses are going in the landfills, which

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Speaker 1: totally sucks man, exactly. That's like, that's the epitome of

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Speaker 1: being cheap, when you're putting your cheapness upon somebody else,

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Speaker 1: and this is a perfect example of that. Like this

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Speaker 1: is going into a landfill, and you know, not only

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Speaker 1: are you reaping a financial benefit from that, but you're

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Speaker 1: you're displacing the cost of that onto not only everyone

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Speaker 1: around you, but the earth as well. And we're not

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Speaker 1: even talking about like the what the wasted resources and

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Speaker 1: like the carbon footprint that it took to create that

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Speaker 1: mattress as well, which and the shipping and all that.

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Speaker 1: It totally kind of bums me out. So if that's you,

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Speaker 1: I think twice yeah, And we love to know your

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Speaker 1: thoughts on this too. I think it's an interesting topic,

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Speaker 1: like the frugal versus cheap like when is it too far?

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, maybe in the Facebook group if you

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Speaker 1: want to let your thoughts be known, we'd love to

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Speaker 1: hear from you just go to Facebook and search how

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Speaker 1: the Money in the search bar, you'll find our group

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Speaker 1: and we'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: that because it is an interesting topic. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: create a fake account and go in there and say

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Speaker 1: that I'm all for it and see what happens. Man,

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Speaker 1: You're gonna start a ruckus in there. We'll get lampooned.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you might well see Yeah, all right, Matt. We

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Speaker 1: gotta mention the beer that we're having on the show today,

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Speaker 1: astral Prism by Modern Times Beer. Big thanks to my

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Speaker 1: buddy Craig who brews out there from Honor Time sending

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Speaker 1: this one our away. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 1: enjoying this one, man, and getting your thoughts as well

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Speaker 1: at the end of this episode. All right, man, sounds good,

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Speaker 1: But now onto the subject at hand. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: leveling up your money game with gamification, with gamification, not gammification,

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Speaker 1: all right. But the reason, Matt, I think for this episode,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's a perfect, you know, early January

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Speaker 1: episode to do because a lot of us were really

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out we're we're super intentional oftentimes in

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Speaker 1: January and the beginning of January. How are we going

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Speaker 1: to get our money game straight? How are we going

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Speaker 1: to do better than we did in twenty nineteen? And

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Speaker 1: tons of Americans have a real difficult to getting their

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Speaker 1: personal finances together. Right there, There's a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: out there, for many different reasons that have a hard

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Speaker 1: time saving any money, investing any money, building wealth. And

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Speaker 1: and that's what the show is about. We want to

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Speaker 1: help people in all sorts of different walks of life

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Speaker 1: achieve a modicum of financial independence in their lives. But

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Speaker 1: they have a hard time making that progress with their

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Speaker 1: different money goals that they're loosely trying to achieve. And

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Speaker 1: I say loosely because mostly those goals are aspirational. There's

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Speaker 1: no rubber meeting the road. And also there's this problem

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Speaker 1: that achieving financial goals can be hard and boring. Right,

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Speaker 1: Like people are like snooze fest, let me let me

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Speaker 1: kick off the how of money guys and go listen

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Speaker 1: to some like murder Mystery Show or something like that. Right,

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Speaker 1: And I understand like those might be more funds, maybe

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Speaker 1: sounds a little bit more fun. We're fun though, Hey,

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Speaker 1: that's why we have a beer because we wanted to

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Speaker 1: make personal finances a little more approachable and like, and

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Speaker 1: that has a lot to do with our show, Like,

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Speaker 1: I think gamification is just a perfect episode for us

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Speaker 1: to cover. Yeah, so, so, really, how do we take

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Speaker 1: these hopes and these dreams and turn them into this

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Speaker 1: debt slaying, wealth building reality. Well, the fact is gamification, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about here. When we can gamify

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Speaker 1: our personal finances, that can help us to actually achieve

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Speaker 1: some of those goals like paying down debt, like saving

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Speaker 1: and investing more of our money when it would otherwise

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Speaker 1: be something that we wouldn't do at all. Right, It

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Speaker 1: will also likely make the entire process more speedy and

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Speaker 1: fun as well. Gamification triggers our emotions, and it can

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Speaker 1: lock us into a course of action that would be

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Speaker 1: harder for us to pursue were it not for the

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Speaker 1: implementation of these game like elements. Yeah, I think for

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Speaker 1: a lot of us, a goal for is a great

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Speaker 1: aim for this year is for to have a better

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Speaker 1: relationship with money in general. And one thing that can

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Speaker 1: help you achieve that is to modify your approach and

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Speaker 1: think about money more like a game. Gamification helps us

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Speaker 1: reframe this difficult subject and turn it into something that

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Speaker 1: we can be a little more curious and experimental with.

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes, Matt, that curiosity, that experimentation, when we're

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Speaker 1: able to approach money from that angle as opposed to

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Speaker 1: this like hard nosed Excel kind of angle, it can

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Speaker 1: really give us a lot more leeway to jump in

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Speaker 1: with both feet and to kind of get excited about

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Speaker 1: seeing some move some changes with our finances. Yeah, that's true,

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Speaker 1: because it's fun, right, And here's the thing. We like fun,

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's not the end goal, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's just a means to an end. Hopefully over time,

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Speaker 1: by the repeated action of doing the smart thing because

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Speaker 1: it happens to be fun, that can transform the way

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Speaker 1: that we actually view that action. So when it comes

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Speaker 1: to our money, we don't necessarily care that something is fun,

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Speaker 1: only that it leads to improved behavior when it comes

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Speaker 1: to your money, that it gets you doing whatever it

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Speaker 1: is that you should be doing. I think there's sort

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Speaker 1: of a warning in this as well, where we need

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Speaker 1: to make sure that we're not getting sucked into the

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Speaker 1: game itself, because sometimes we can kind of lose sight

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Speaker 1: of the larger goals, right. I'm specifically thinking of coupons

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Speaker 1: because people they see the coupon and they think that's

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Speaker 1: such a great deal. Well cool, would you have purchased

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Speaker 1: that overpriced you know, cheese? Otherwise maybe not? And so

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Speaker 1: in that case you're taking advantage of maybe a specific deal,

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Speaker 1: but the big picture is you spent more on that

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Speaker 1: fancy cheese. Well, you know what I hate more than

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Speaker 1: anything over price cheese. I'm glad you brought up that example,

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Speaker 1: because that is a thorn in my side. My friend, Well,

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Speaker 1: I know you're just joking, and I would actually love

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Speaker 1: it if we had a beer in cheese paring. That

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Speaker 1: sounds nice. Would that be? Oh my gosh, we'd be

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Speaker 1: a fancy show then. But you know what, we couldn't

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Speaker 1: do that. All They has some pretty nice cheeses, though

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Speaker 1: at a reasonable price. I will say, yeah, I like

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Speaker 1: all the cheese. All right, Matt. Since we're talking about

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Speaker 1: gamification quickly, I gotta know, like, do you have like

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Speaker 1: a favorite game, current or past? Maybe? Well, okay, So

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Speaker 1: one that comes to mind is have I ever told

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Speaker 1: you about what I affectionately used to call dt D. No,

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Speaker 1: it's a desktop tower defense. Was this like back in

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Speaker 1: the Prince of Persia days? Where you playing. That's also

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Speaker 1: another fantastic game back in the speaking of computers from

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Speaker 1: oh five, and I was like computers from ninety five, right,

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Speaker 1: Uh No, it was this little flash game on this

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Speaker 1: website and a very highly addictive simple game. But I

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Speaker 1: spent way too many of my lunch breaks at my

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Speaker 1: former advertising job playing that dumb game. And this is

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Speaker 1: before we had kids as well. So I would come

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Speaker 1: home and I would play it at home sometimes too, Okay,

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Speaker 1: would hear the music playing the little sound effects, and

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Speaker 1: she would roll her eyes, you know, like she's trying

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Speaker 1: to convince me to stop wasting my time on this

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Speaker 1: on the silly game, because I really really liked it.

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Speaker 1: Don't look it up, by the way, because I'm not

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Speaker 1: even kidding you would totally all right, I'll avoid it

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Speaker 1: them like the Plague. It's really good, I think so,

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Speaker 1: but probably my favorite, yeah what about you video game

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Speaker 1: for a long time. I mean, I played a lot

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Speaker 1: of NBA Jam back in the day. That's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Physical wise, I like spike Ball and disc golf a lot, right,

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Speaker 1: those are my two favorite games. If if you're listening

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Speaker 1: to Mike Ball, you and me last time we played,

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Speaker 1: you mean we teamed up. We did. We tore it

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Speaker 1: up completely dominated nice little deal. They were like little

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Speaker 1: nas and uh Billy ray Ciris something like that. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure which one is which I'm little a little nas,

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Speaker 1: Okay on the minority. I'll take that. I'll take that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And for folks listening who haven't played spike ball, get

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Speaker 1: on it. It's a great sport. It's fun. But we

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Speaker 1: typically play games because there are a ton of fun

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Speaker 1: and we enjoy them, right, and if we received some

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Speaker 1: sort of like side benefit from the game, well it's

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Speaker 1: just just a bone. This and strategy board games will

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Speaker 1: They get us thinking and they keep us sharp and

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Speaker 1: it makes you think about Matt Episode five, we talked

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Speaker 1: about nerdy board games. We love nerdy board games as well.

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Speaker 1: Also playing in like a Rex soccer league, well that

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Speaker 1: can help keep us fit. But the fact the games

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Speaker 1: are fun is at the root of why we played them.

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Speaker 1: And depending on who you ask, they'll give you different

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Speaker 1: reasons why games are fun. Maybe it's a competition that

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Speaker 1: you're drawn to, or the prize at the end of

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Speaker 1: the game or at the end of the season, the

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Speaker 1: trophy that you get. Maybe, but there are aspects of

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Speaker 1: a game that make it fun, and that's what we're

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Speaker 1: focusing on in this episode. Yeah, when we can figure

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Speaker 1: out what it is about a particular game that we

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Speaker 1: love and that we're drawn to, well, then we can

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Speaker 1: bridge that gap between a game that we love and

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Speaker 1: our personal finances. That's what we believe here. We can

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Speaker 1: take those principles from something we find naturally appealing and

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Speaker 1: apply them to something that most folks financially boring, like

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Speaker 1: saving and investing our money. So will budgeting ever be

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Speaker 1: as fun as playing candy Crush or playing Fortnite? Probably not.

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Speaker 1: But if we can bring even a action of the

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Speaker 1: excitement to our personal finances that we have towards the

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Speaker 1: games that we play, I think we'll all likely see

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Speaker 1: our money in better places. In Yeah, So we're gonna

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Speaker 1: go over kind of some of the things that make

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Speaker 1: gaming fun and the way we can translate that to

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Speaker 1: how we handle our money, and then a lot of

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Speaker 1: really good examples I think that we've got we throughout

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Speaker 1: this episode that you're going to be able to apply

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Speaker 1: to your life. Now that you can change the way

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Speaker 1: you handle your money, you can gamify it, and you

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Speaker 1: know what it's going to have a massive impact on

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Speaker 1: how your personal finances are handled. In like it's going

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Speaker 1: to be able to help you make real changes in

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Speaker 1: your life. And we'll get to some of that stuff

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Speaker 1: right after the break. All right, Joel, we are back

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Speaker 1: from the break, and let's talk now about what makes

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Speaker 1: games fun. Right the rest of this episode, we're going

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Speaker 1: to try and figure out what it is about games

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Speaker 1: that we enjoy and they we're gonna apply those things

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Speaker 1: to our personal finances. Man, I honestly think it's a

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Speaker 1: little ironic that we're analyzing what it is that makes

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Speaker 1: games fun, because it kind of sounds like one of

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Speaker 1: the nerdiest, at least fun things that we've ever discussed. Right.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like if you were to take a

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Speaker 1: college course on how to do stand up, Like you're

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Speaker 1: analyzing a joke that's not really how it's supposed to

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Speaker 1: be enjoyed. But at the same time, I think this

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Speaker 1: is really important because I think there really are principles

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Speaker 1: about games, and if we think about them in the

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Speaker 1: right light, well, then we can take these principles and

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Speaker 1: apply them to any problem that we're faced with, any

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Speaker 1: sort of personal finance challenge, to find a way to

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Speaker 1: make it stickier, to make it something that we will

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Speaker 1: actually accomplish over time instead of kind of just kicking

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Speaker 1: it to the side after that New Year's resolution kind

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Speaker 1: of phase kind of wears off. Yeah. Yeah, a quick goal.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to throw out a quick couple of financial goals,

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Speaker 1: But implementation is where it gets hard, right, That's where

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Speaker 1: it becomes more difficult. The stick tuitiveness, and I think

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Speaker 1: sometimes gamification can help us stick to it. And so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's one of the major reasons we like games, Well,

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Speaker 1: one of them is competition. We like watching our favorite

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Speaker 1: sports team beat up the rival cross town sports team.

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Speaker 1: Like that is as old as America itself, right, So,

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Speaker 1: so many of the best sports and games out in

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Speaker 1: the world today are ones that involve playing against our

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Speaker 1: beating an opponent. Anytime you can bring some competition in

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Speaker 1: the picture, things are bound to get more fun. Even

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Speaker 1: if you're not playing directly against a friend, you're trying

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Speaker 1: to beat the final boss, the final level, You're trying

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Speaker 1: to put a nail in the coffin of that game.

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Speaker 1: You're trying to be done with it, and I want

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Speaker 1: to beat that game exactly. Have those braggen rights, right,

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Speaker 1: And so Matt. Let me give you a quick example.

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Speaker 1: So my my boss, Christa, she had this spin class

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Speaker 1: birthday party and I brought my bike to work, so

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Speaker 1: I was like, cool, it's gonna be fun. I don't

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Speaker 1: really do spin class, never done it before actually until

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Speaker 1: this party. But I ride to work every day some boss,

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Speaker 1: So we'll see how this goes. I will say I

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Speaker 1: was not up to her level because she's like a

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Speaker 1: spin class master. But different than running a bike. It

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Speaker 1: is different. It is different. Yeah, I mean it's they're

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Speaker 1: definitely obviously you're using some of your hands instead of

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Speaker 1: your legs. Yeah, exactly, That's what I was doing when

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Speaker 1: I was down on all four been doggy paddle class.

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Speaker 1: Oh you didn't tell me that, but like they had

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Speaker 1: this pumped up music and instructors that were super excited

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Speaker 1: and getting us motivated. And then also on top of that,

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Speaker 1: the thing for me that had the leaderboard, and the

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Speaker 1: leaderboard was what motivated me to go even harder. So

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Speaker 1: sometimes on my on my bike to work or home,

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Speaker 1: I'll take it. I'll take it nice and leisurely, like

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Speaker 1: I won't go super hard because who's it benefiting if

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Speaker 1: I go harder? It's just me right, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: my health. It's good for me. But ultimately I'm not

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Speaker 1: competing against anyone. But when I had that leaderboard in

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Speaker 1: front of me, man, it made me like go twice

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Speaker 1: as hard. I saw people were rising and falling second

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Speaker 1: by second, and so you're like, oh, man, I just

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Speaker 1: dropped down at number six or seven, and I want

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Speaker 1: to be top five. So I started going harder and harder.

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Speaker 1: And so obviously it's different riding a spin class bike

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Speaker 1: and and competing with other people on the leaderboard versus

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Speaker 1: just my normal ride into work. Ultimately, I think I

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Speaker 1: like my ride into work a little bit better. Like

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Speaker 1: but that is one of those things that off times

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Speaker 1: we're drawn to when it comes to games. Is that

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Speaker 1: high level of competition that we can experience. Sure, Well,

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Speaker 1: quick question to Crystal win because it was her birthday party, right,

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Speaker 1: we should have let her win. I don't remember. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember who wanted. Months back. I don't think she wanted,

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Speaker 1: but I think she's like top three, she's really good. Nice.

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Speaker 1: I've never done that. Maybe I will someday. Well, competition,

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Speaker 1: right in your example, it's very clear what the point

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Speaker 1: of that class was like they've got the leaderboard up there.

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Speaker 1: You want to win, You want to you want to

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Speaker 1: be at the top of the heap. When it comes

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Speaker 1: to our money, the point isn't always super clear and straightforward, right,

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Speaker 1: And so because of that, I think we tend to

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Speaker 1: default to what comes easiest and the most natural to us,

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Speaker 1: and that's to compete with those around you, right, like

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Speaker 1: with your friends and co workers. Just like you do

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Speaker 1: with any sort of game that you play or any

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Speaker 1: sort of competition that you enter your you typically compete

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Speaker 1: against other people. When you think about it, I think

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Speaker 1: this can be a really unhealthy view of competition when

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Speaker 1: you are looking at it through the lens of your

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Speaker 1: personal finances, right when you're thinking about your money. If

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Speaker 1: you're looking at it that way, if it's always the competition,

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Speaker 1: this can lead to sort of that keeping up with

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Speaker 1: the Joneses mentality of spending way more than you should.

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Speaker 1: With this view, and if you kind of approach your

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Speaker 1: personal finances with that in mind, you're sort of entering

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Speaker 1: the arena with that scarcity mindset, right jel Like if

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Speaker 1: you hear people talking about like not focusing on getting

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Speaker 1: your slize of the pie, but let's work on growing

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Speaker 1: the pie. And I think that's completely true when it

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Speaker 1: comes to our money. When it comes to our personal

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Speaker 1: finances in the real world, your money has very little

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Speaker 1: to do with my money. If you max out your

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Speaker 1: four own k or your roth ira A, what does

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Speaker 1: that mean I have less money to max out my

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Speaker 1: rath ire. No, there's very little impact if your personal

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Speaker 1: finances online, we're not actually competing. Yeah, I think to

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Speaker 1: what we can see on the surface is completely different

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Speaker 1: than what reality looks like when when we're talking about money.

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Speaker 1: So let's take for example, uh, like what percentage of

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Speaker 1: NFL players go bankrupt once their career is over. It's

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Speaker 1: it's something astronomical. It's like eight eventually file for bankruptcy.

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Speaker 1: And that's a terrible statistic. But those people have earned

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Speaker 1: oftentimes more money in one year than most of us

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Speaker 1: will see in a whole entire lifetime. And then you

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Speaker 1: look at somebody like Warren Buffett who's lived in the

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Speaker 1: same house for thirty or forty years and eats at

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Speaker 1: McDonald's every single morning. I mean, it's this sort of

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Speaker 1: man because it's so good, right and healthy for you,

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Speaker 1: and it's one of those things that sometimes having money

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Speaker 1: it's not reflective on the surface. And actually, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you dig in deeper an old school book, something

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Speaker 1: like the Millionaire next Door, and you see that the

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Speaker 1: way that millionaires live, actually it's pretty hard to tell

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Speaker 1: that they're millionaires. And so I think sometimes that's where

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Speaker 1: we get hung up is we see other people living

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Speaker 1: a lifestyle that reflects having money. But ultimately the people

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Speaker 1: that are living a lifestyle where it looks like they

428
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,199
Speaker 1: have money, oftentimes they don't have that much money and

429
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,600
Speaker 1: they haven't been handling their money well. And there's credit

430
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,159
Speaker 1: card debt funding that lifestyle that we just don't know

431
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 1: about that's not apparent on the surface. Yeah, dude, so true,

432
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,119
Speaker 1: Like so much of personal finance is hidden, right, Like

433
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 1: all that's visible is maybe that big house or that

434
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 1: new car. Really, though, the true challenge and the true

435
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 1: competition will vary for each person depending on where they

436
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,239
Speaker 1: are life, like maybe it might be to get out

437
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 1: of debt or to save up enough money for a

438
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 1: down payment on a home. What we need to do

439
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 1: is just to make sure that we have clearly identified

440
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 1: what game it is that we want to play and

441
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,919
Speaker 1: what our specific challenge will be. This is so vital

442
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 1: to making progress with our money because dude, after all,

443
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 1: like who cares to win a game that they wouldn't

444
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 1: even naturally choose. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I think.

445
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: All right, let's give an example to kind of help

446
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 1: connect the dots. So I think, when it comes to

447
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 1: our money, you're not competing with those around you. And

448
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 1: that's really really important to remember. Even though competition is

449
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,159
Speaker 1: these one one of these main elements in gaming and

450
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 1: the things that we enjoy about gaming, Well, when it

451
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 1: comes to money, with take a different approach. You're competing

452
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 1: with yourself. It's not who has the nicest car, it's

453
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,560
Speaker 1: the You have to think more along the lines of

454
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,439
Speaker 1: I have a dumb car payment and I want to

455
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 1: pay it off as quickly as possible. Right, you have

456
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,120
Speaker 1: to reframe things, and so how do you do that. Well,

457
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: you do that by potentially gamifying the way you make payments,

458
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: and so, like, one way to do that is to

459
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: round up your payments. So let's say your car payment

460
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 1: every month is bucks. Well, if you can round it

461
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: up to a solid even number of four hundred bucks,

462
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 1: you're going to pay it off more quickly. You're going

463
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 1: to avoid some of those interest payments, and ultimately you're

464
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 1: going to own your car much more quickly than you

465
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 1: would have had you stuck to just the normal payment amount.

466
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 1: So I think it's important to note that there are

467
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: different ways that you can implement this into your life.

468
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,679
Speaker 1: But more than anything, you have to realize that the

469
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: competition is not with the people around you, because if

470
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 1: you do that, that is when, like you said, Matt,

471
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 1: it's going to be this keeping up with the Jones mentality,

472
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 1: because really, more than anything, it's a competition with yourself

473
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,640
Speaker 1: as you're striving after your goals for your future. Yeah.

474
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,479
Speaker 1: Another example I'm thinking of two is you know how,

475
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 1: like a lot of utilities have budget billing like that

476
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 1: as an option where it's really even and it's the

477
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 1: same every month. But what they do is that they

478
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,640
Speaker 1: build in the fact that they know that there's gonna

479
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 1: be some months that are really low and there's also

480
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,360
Speaker 1: gonna be some months that are really high, and so

481
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 1: they're gonna make sure that they cover all of that.

482
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: And so instead, one of the things that you and

483
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 1: I both like to do is make sure that we

484
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 1: are receiving our bills delivered to us where we have

485
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 1: to pay it manually. And this kind of goes against

486
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: a lot of the advice out there as far as

487
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: automating your bills. But you and I both are in

488
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: a position where you know, we can afford a little

489
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: bit of time to pay bills manually. And when you're

490
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,120
Speaker 1: faced with that bill and you see the cost of

491
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 1: your power, you see the cost of your electricity, or

492
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 1: you see your water bill. Like for me, like, if

493
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 1: I can keep my water bill at six and if

494
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: I cannot let it jump up to that next tier

495
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: of eighty eight bucks, that's a win for Me've won.

496
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 1: I've won exactly. But when I see it go up

497
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: to that eighty eight bucks, I think, oh, you win

498
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 1: this time, Watershed of Atlanta. But I'm coming for you

499
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: next month. Right, Yeah, we're all about automating your finances.

500
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: Like I think that's you know, that's something we're gonna

501
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: talk about soon. Automation is key to our success when

502
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 1: it comes to our finances. But but one of the

503
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,360
Speaker 1: ways that you can gamify things. I like to look

504
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 1: at every bill in the face every month, and one

505
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: of those things that I don't sign up for his

506
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: budget billing, and that's because I want to get the bill.

507
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 1: I want to get my heating bill in the winner

508
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: in January or February, and I want to see, Okay,

509
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 1: how much did I spend this month? And you know what,

510
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: if I spent more than I like when I see

511
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: the bill and it gives me that tiny bit of

512
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: bill shock, it makes me want to lower the thermostat.

513
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 1: It makes me want to make a behavioral change. And

514
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: I think sometimes if you choose the budget billing and

515
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: it's a constant bill every single month for the whole year,

516
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't force you to kind of come to grips

517
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 1: with reality and then make it behavioral change based on

518
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: what you've seen. And so I mean, everybody can make

519
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: their own decision on this, but I think that's a

520
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: good way of helping you kind of gamify things, is

521
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 1: by looking those bills in the face every single month

522
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: and then being forced to make on the fly behavioral

523
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: changes in order to to help you lower those expenses,

524
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: lower those bills. Yeah, that's right, Like this is an

525
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 1: instance where it's good to feel that hurt, you know,

526
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 1: like like you don't want to be on a constant

527
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: drip of morphine where you don't feel the pain. You're

528
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 1: not gonna feel the consequences of your actions. Yeah for sure.

529
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: All right, Joe. So we're talking about other people, right,

530
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: We're talking about how the competition are not the people

531
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: who are around us. But when you're playing a game,

532
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: there are times when the people around you can actually

533
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: help help you in a positive and affirming way, and

534
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 1: that's when you're on the same side. Working together is

535
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: crucial for any team sport out there, and aside from

536
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: team sports, is even crucial for like some nerdy your

537
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: board games like Pandemic or even Dungeons and Dragons, which,

538
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 1: by the way, did you ever played Dungeons D and

539
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: D as a kid? Never played it? But uh and

540
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: I always thought it was kind of like super nerdy.

541
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:20,719
Speaker 1: But I think I don't know. I've heard some good

542
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: stuff about it, and I think I'd give it a shot.

543
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: The thing is at the core of working together on

544
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: a team is communicating and working together to achieve that

545
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: shared goal, that common goal. Yeah for sure. I mean

546
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: teamwork is is huge and and that's one of the

547
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: things we love about games, right. I love watching soccer.

548
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: I love the way a team can pass the ball.

549
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: I think, honestly, that's the first thing that attracted me

550
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: to soccer was the incredible passing abilities of some of

551
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: the guys on the field, and it was like, oh man,

552
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: this is a really neat team sport. Uh. And so yeah, money.

553
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: When it comes to our money, the same can be true.

554
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: Teamwork can have a major impact. Step one is to

555
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 1: talk about our finances and how we're spending, saving, and investing.

556
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: Like Matt, we're big advocates for people opening their mouths

557
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 1: with their friends and family and talking about money more

558
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: and making it less of a taboo topic. But let's

559
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 1: take it to the next level. Think about how much

560
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: we'd be able to help each other out by asking

561
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: more questions, by giving specific advice, and supporting each other

562
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: when times are tough. Connecting with your partner or a

563
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: good friend in real life, I mean, that's ideal, that's perfect,

564
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: that's amazing. And if you're both able to set some

565
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 1: shared goals like paying down student loans or saving up

566
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,239
Speaker 1: enough for a great trip for some travel, well, how

567
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: much more impactful is that When you have a teammate

568
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: on your side. It feels like you're fulfilling this even

569
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,959
Speaker 1: bigger goal and you're doing it with someone else. Uh

570
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: And Matt We've mentioned a couple of apps before that

571
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: make it even more helpful. Like we're talking about gamification,

572
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: sometimes apps and websites are really helpful on our road

573
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: to UH gamifying our personal finance life. The Twine app

574
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 1: is great for helping couples safer goals together, and Zeta

575
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: is another really good one. Will link to both of

576
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: those in the show notes. UH and finding online communities

577
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: is clutched as well. Our Facebook group is a great

578
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: place where we're individuals are working together as this kind

579
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: of massive hive mind to help each other out. I

580
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: love seeing that, man. I love that people are able

581
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: to kind of spur each other on, encourage each other,

582
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: and then also answer questions. I think collaboration allows this

583
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: potential for outside success. We can kind of accomplish more

584
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: together than we can apart. Yeah, it's so great about it.

585
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: You're sharing knowledge, but there's that accountability as well, and

586
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: that's just such a key component of getting stuff done.

587
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk about some more of the different

588
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: addictive components that make games so fun, and we're gonna

589
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: get to those right after the break. All right, Matt,

590
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: we're back to the break. We're talking about gamification. We're

591
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: talking about what makes games fun and how we can

592
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,959
Speaker 1: apply those principles to our personal finances. And you just

593
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: mentioned a really interesting word right before the break you

594
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: what did I say? You said, addicted? And it's really interesting.

595
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: We're in an age where people are a did to

596
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: certain games. Like I think about Fortnite. I thought, you're

597
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: gonna call me out with my desktop Tower defense because

598
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: there was a period where I think I would have

599
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: qualified as addicted to that thing. Well, I don't think

600
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: you're playing it still to this day, but I have

601
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: to admit that in quote unquote researching for this episode,

602
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: I thought, I wonder if that thing is still up. Yep,

603
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: it is, and you played it for a few hours.

604
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: I sat down to it for about thirty minutes. Well,

605
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: I mean, just remember a shame to say, but remember

606
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: when Words with Friends was hot like that that was

607
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: I mean, people were addicted to it. They were pulling

608
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: it out in the bathroom, they were pulling it out

609
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: at the dinner table, they were pulling it out all

610
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: over the place, and and so yeah, I mean I

611
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: think games can have this addictive component, and I think

612
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: we can take some of those best elements of the

613
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: addictive component of games and apply that to our money

614
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: where it's healthy and not destructive exactly exactly and not

615
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 1: being used in a terrible way that actually ruins us.

616
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: And Yeah, one of those major things that games do

617
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: for us is is this achievability element. There are levels

618
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 1: to a game for a reason. Right there. It's breaking

619
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: up these larger goals. There are many bosses along the

620
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: way that you get to beat up until you get

621
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: to the big boss. Nobody wants to play something that

622
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: they're never going to win, that game that they're never

623
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: gonna win, that's too hard. Well, you just mentioned soccer

624
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: a second ago. This makes me think of America and soccer,

625
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: and I've heard that that's one of the big arguments

626
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: why people think that soccer is not going to take

627
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: in the US and why basically hasn't taken up until

628
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: maybe recently. But like, who wants to play a sport

629
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: that you can't win or that you're not very good at? Right,

630
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, they tied at the end. What that's ridiculous.

631
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking that that's not American, right. I

632
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: remember thinking the exact same thing, you know, when I

633
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: first got introduced to soccer. I was like, that's stupid.

634
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: In America, we win or we lose, right, Yeah, so true, man,

635
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of people are not going

636
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: to be able to get excited about something that they're

637
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: not going to be able to win at. And I

638
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: think when we're talking about personal finances, this is a

639
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: game that all of us can win in one degree

640
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: or another. Like we can all do better with our

641
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: personal finances, and that's what makes this I think we

642
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: can use this kind of these gamification elements to give

643
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: us small winds along the way that lead to kind

644
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: of this ability to achieve something even bigger. Yeah, we

645
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: want to win, or like we at least want to

646
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: see some progress, like like some of those baby steps.

647
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: If you can see progress, like a lot of times,

648
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: that's all that it takes. But in regards to our money,

649
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: we have to balance that challenge of a particular money

650
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: goal with the likelihood of us actually being able to

651
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: achieve that goal. We need to be realistic and actually

652
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: ask ourselves, like, is this even doable? Can I own

653
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: six testlas? Uh? Maybe it just depends gonna take a while,

654
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: but yeah, I'll not know. Like you might want to

655
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: become a billionaire, But really, what are the chances of

656
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: that actually happening? And while that's important to consider, even

657
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: a modest goal like saving up enough money to pay

658
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: for a new car, just a new use car that's

659
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: not a Tesla in cash, like, even that can feel insurmountable.

660
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: But the trick is to actually break it up into

661
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: smaller steps that you can actually make some progress on.

662
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: This actually makes me think of Joe My. We're talking

663
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: about soccer here. The US is going to be hosting

664
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: the World Cup in right, and I looked up last year.

665
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: I looked up some of the average ticket prices of

666
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: what the World Cup tickets were going for in Russia,

667
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: and I figured that it might cost our family if

668
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: we wanted to go to just like a standard match,

669
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: like one of the I don't know, maybe one of

670
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: the group matches or maybe one of the semis. It

671
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: might cost our family about three thousand dollars to go

672
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: to a single soccer game, which sounds pretty dumb, right, Like,

673
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: that sounds pretty ludicrous and that sounds totally overwhelming, Like

674
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: how can you justify that? But be how do you

675
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: actually save that much money? That's also kind of a

676
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: once in a lifetime thing, right, Like I remember when

677
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: the Olympics were in Atlanta. I got to go to

678
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: one basketball games and it was so cool. Like the

679
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: fact that I got to go to an Olympic that's

680
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Sporting event is one of those things that

681
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: almost nobody gets to do. It's so cool to think

682
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: that that happens. So it's really expensive, but it's also

683
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,959
Speaker 1: something that might be on somebody's like bucket list. Understandable exactly.

684
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: If that's something you value, then you want to make

685
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: sure that you're taking the steps to make that a

686
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: priority in your life. But the fact is it doesn't

687
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: matter who you are. Well, I guess it does matter

688
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: who you are, But if you're a normal person like us,

689
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars to take your family to a match

690
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: seems ridiculous a single match, But if you do the math,

691
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: we'll have a little over six years before the World

692
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: Cup is upon us. And if you break that out

693
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: to how much we would need to set aside every month,

694
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: it's about thirty five bucks And that sounds doable, exactly,

695
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: Like that's what's so crazy is that this massive, audacious

696
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: goal of saving three thousand dollars to go to the

697
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: World Cup. Well, all of a sudden, it seems like nothing.

698
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: Thirty five bucks is totally doable, and at the same time,

699
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: it's not something that feels overwhelming to me. I feel

700
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: that that's something I can actually make progress on. I

701
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: can handle all those little levels of adding thirty five

702
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: bucks to that pot, you know, month after month. But

703
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: if all of a sudden I had to show out

704
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: three grand, it's probably not gonna happen, or it's just

705
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: gonna really stress me out. Yeah, it's a good point. Yeah,

706
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: breaking up that larger goal into smaller chunks is gamifying

707
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: the process. That makes it so much more feasible and

708
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: so much more fun too, to be like, you know what,

709
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: I can do it and and to start actually going

710
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: for it. And Matt, it makes me think too about

711
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: Back in the episode, we talked to our friend j

712
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: d Roth, who writes at the site Get Rich Slowly,

713
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: and we talked for a little bit about the stages

714
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: of financial independence and if we think about those stages

715
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: as levels in a game, well, they can help our

716
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: approach and accelerate our ability to move more quickly through

717
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: those stages. And the question then is how well mental

718
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: shifts are so huge in helping us actually create change

719
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 1: in our lives. So if we're thinking of our personal

720
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,959
Speaker 1: finances in a more gamelike fashion, it will make a

721
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: big difference in how we handle our money. In those

722
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: stages are so helpful in visualizing our future and what

723
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: it can look like. If we think about financial independence

724
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: on kind of this long extended timeline, and that we're

725
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: achieving a little bit more of it over time as

726
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: we put more aside for the future and we invest

727
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: more in our retirement accounts and we're just generally doing

728
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: better with our money. That's so much easier to comprehend

729
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: than this zero to one overnight kind of thing. Right,

730
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: It's the exact same thing as saving up for that

731
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: World Cup match. That thirty five dollars a month feels

732
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: so different than a three thousand dollar bill that hits

733
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: you right then and there. And so yeah, I think stages,

734
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: process goals being broken up over time are huge and

735
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: helping us handle money better. Yeah, it's a much easier

736
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: pill to swallow. And man, that's something that stuck with

737
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: me as well when j D was talking about those

738
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: different stages well, becoming financially independent, that sounds like this

739
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: huge thing that I would never be able to accomplish.

740
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: Like it sounds like climbing kill him and jarro or

741
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: something like that, doesn't it like with your eyes clothes

742
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: or something like, you know, like it just seems so impossible.

743
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: And I know we're not alone. I think for a

744
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: lot of folks, it really does just seem like this

745
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: insurmountable obstacle, this this challenge that's just too big, and

746
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: when that happens, they can shut us down and it

747
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: keeps us from moving forward at all. And so, yeah,

748
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: just kind of breaking it up into these smaller, bite

749
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: sized chunks will allow us to make progress. And when

750
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: we make progress, we see that traction, we see that progress,

751
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: and it allows us to continue on and fight that

752
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: good fight. Yeah. So there's this guy named James Clear

753
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: and he writes about habits, and one thing he says

754
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: is that getting one percent better every day is kind

755
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: of his goal. And he talks about how just getting

756
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: one percent better in a day like that seems like

757
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: it's not that important, but when you compound a getting

758
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: one percent better over sixty five days of that year,

759
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: if you do it every day, then ultimately the end,

760
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: you're so much better off than if you had never

761
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: taken that action in the first place. And so I

762
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: think sometimes when we when we're able to kind of

763
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: think about it like that, these small changes over a

764
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 1: long period of time, that they make a really huge difference.

765
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: Seeing a little progress in a game, it just reinforces

766
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: our desire to participate in that game. Seeing your debt

767
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: level drop because you're rounding up your payments is a

768
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: great reinforcement too, and it kind of almost, Matt, I think,

769
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: becomes this like self fulfilling prophecy. And so I think

770
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: one thing that we can do a specific kind of

771
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 1: method of gamification that we can adopt in our financial

772
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: life is to create a list of I call them

773
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: like level ups and attempting to do one a month.

774
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: When when you say level up, I hear like the

775
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: sound of when you get the mushroom and Mario Brothers

776
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: or you or no, you like and when you hit

777
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: the flag and you slide down the flagpole like yeah.

778
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: But I think, yeah, if we can do these level ups,

779
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: these are the even bigger things that we can accomplish.

780
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: And if we set ourselves up for success by choosing

781
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: to tackle one a month, right, that's not that's not

782
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: too much, that's not overkill. Well, then I think that

783
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: it's going to have a massive impact. So one month,

784
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: let's say January, you designed to switch self Hope providers

785
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: and and find a much cheaper service and save yourself

786
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: a hundred plus dollars a month. That's a great level up, Like,

787
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 1: that's a big difference that you can make in your life.

788
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: In February, if you haven't opened an I ra A yet,

789
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: well that's the next thing to do. And so opening

790
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 1: up an account with the Guard Fidelity or in one

791
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: gets you motivated and you start to to see the

792
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: progress of that hundred dollars a month that you're starting

793
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 1: to put in there a crew and make a bigger difference.

794
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 1: You're starting to see the progress while seeing your balance

795
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: build only increases your motivation level and it really does

796
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: become this thing that just kind of continues to feed

797
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: on itself. Yeah, something else that folks can do is

798
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: instituting a no spend month. Something like that can jump

799
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: start or even supercharge your savings and curb some of

800
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: that unnecessary spending. The reason for this is because like

801
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 1: it's it's hard, or it's it's even unrealistic, to make

802
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: cuts like that for an entire year, right, Like, who's

803
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: gonna be able to do that? Just not really possible.

804
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: But if you try to do that for a single month,

805
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: well man, that is totally achievable. In these smaller achievable

806
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: winds can also help us to feel more optimistic. So

807
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: you could even apply that to like one area of

808
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: spending in your life. If you've had trouble spending too

809
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: much eating out. You're spending two or fifty bucks a

810
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: month eating out, and you're like, man, we gotta curb

811
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: this something that we like, but we really want to

812
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: kind of curb that spending in our life. Well, you

813
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: know it, take February. Uh, it's a shorter month, which

814
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 1: makes it just a little bit easier to three days easier. Yeah, exactly,

815
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: And so you know what, you say, We're not gonna

816
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: eat out for all of February. We're gonna save that

817
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: two or fifty bucks and we're gonna bank it towards

818
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: something that we we really want to save for, or

819
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: even open that investment account that we haven't opened yet.

820
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: I think a no spend month in a particular category

821
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: or kind of overall, not spending anything online or whatever.

822
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: These are the kind of challenges that probably aren't sustainable

823
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: over a long period of time, but they can be

824
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: kind of that jump start, like that game Genie to

825
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: kind of help us get going right, because that game

826
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 1: Gennie was the worst to kind of forbe like sucked

827
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: all the fun of it because there was no there's

828
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: no more challenge, right, Okay, maybe it's the Mario Star

829
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: when you get the Star and like you can't get

830
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: shells can't hit you. Yeah, you can run through the

831
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: whole level without getting hit for at least a period

832
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: of time, exactly. All right, Let's talk about an aspect

833
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: of games make them fun that everyone's pretty much aware of,

834
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: which is the reward, the goal or the prize at

835
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 1: the end of the game. Part of what makes any

836
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: game so fun in addictive is the fact that there's

837
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: gonna be some sort of fantastic price at the end

838
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: of the slock. You know, we're talking about Mario Brothers here,

839
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: thinking about beating Bowser at the end of Mario Brothers three.

840
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: Can you feel the fireballs like it wasn't passion? Is

841
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 1: your heart pounding because you're afraid you're gonna die? Yeah?

842
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: The Cortisol is pumping through my blood. You know, we

843
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't play any game if there wasn't a final

844
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 1: reward or a feeling of accomplishment that came with beating

845
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: the game. And so when it comes to our personal finances,

846
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: the final reward might be, you know, a massive down

847
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: payment for a house, or maybe paying off your student loans,

848
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: or maybe even the ultimate goal, which is achieving financial independence.

849
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: But we often don't celebrate these smaller wins and these milestones.

850
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking of things like just maybe paying off

851
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: a specific credit card debt or even setting up a

852
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: basic emergency fund. These are wins that we achieve, but

853
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily recognize them like we do when you

854
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: hit financial independence, or maybe when you buy that house,

855
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: because when you buy that house, you throw up, you know,

856
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: a housewarming party, and it feels like you've accomplished something.

857
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: These smaller goals and these smaller rewards along the way,

858
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: I think are so crucial. So rewarding ourselves in small

859
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: ways along the way, it's so important as we continue

860
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: up the mountain towards whatever larger financial goals that we

861
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: might have. So for example, Man, sometimes it's just the

862
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: small things like Sometimes those rewards are huge, and those

863
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 1: are the things that are impactful, like winning a super Bowl.

864
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: But for me, sometimes it's the small things that they

865
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: go a long way. Every time I up the percentage,

866
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: for instance, in in my company four oh one K

867
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: on the Vanguard website, streamers fly and it says like

868
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: the big congratulations and then they send me an email afterwards. Yeah,

869
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: it makes me feel so good man, I'm like, all right,

870
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: I did I did something great. Yeah. It's it's it's

871
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: like a little dopamine release. What you're doing there is

872
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: you're realizing it emotionally. You know in your head cognitively

873
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 1: that that's what you're supposed to do. But by having

874
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: that little reward, like the little streamers that kind of

875
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: flash across and like the con eddie that drips down

876
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: your screen, like you're feeling that in a very small

877
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: and digital way, but you're still feeling it emotionally. And

878
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: that's I think what's so important. And that's what celebrating

879
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 1: things is all about. Right. It's it's not saying that cool,

880
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: you did a good job. It's like, well I know that.

881
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: But a celebration or a party or a small reward,

882
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: we're not talking about going out and blowing all the

883
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: money that you've saved, but that connects it to you emotionally.

884
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of what's missing in our

885
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 1: world today, right, Like we live in such a culture

886
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: that is so focused on performance and hitting goals and

887
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: quotas and things like that. But the thing is, as

888
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: soon as we hit those things, what happens we set

889
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 1: the next one exactly Like typically the bar gets raised,

890
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: and we don't often spend a lot of time celebrating.

891
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying we need to sit around patting

892
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 1: ourselves on the back all the time, but I think

893
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: if we can actually recognize that, man, something significant was

894
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: accomplished here, that's we're celebrating, and those little rewards along

895
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: the way can help us to achieve those larger financial goals.

896
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: I think when you don't celebrate those little financial wins,

897
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: I think that's when people get burned out. Right. If

898
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: you're constantly just on this march and you're not really

899
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: looking up, you're just got your nose to the grindstone,

900
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: you're just working hard, well, I think someone has a

901
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: better chance of burning out in that kind of situation

902
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: and then ultimately not actually achieving the financial goals that

903
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: they've set out to achieve. Thrown in the towel completely,

904
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: and yeah, man, it's amazing to me for some reason

905
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 1: that this little Vanguard stream I mean, it's their websites. Honestly,

906
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: it's very terrible. It's not very usual friendly, and the

907
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 1: streamers are kind of They're still a fantastic company. Yeah, yeah,

908
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: and we recommend them completely. They're great, but the streamers

909
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: are so like two thousand three at the graphics are

910
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: not good. But it's amazing that that sticks out in

911
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: my mind that they kind of encourage me in that

912
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: way and that it is important, Like it is important

913
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: how they do that, and these little behavioral things that

914
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: do connect to you, and on a deeper level, these small,

915
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: small rewards that are seemingly insignificant can be super meaningful

916
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: in just kind of helping us to continue moving forward. Man,

917
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: I gotta say, it makes me wonder if I hit

918
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 1: some sort of like let's say I completely max out

919
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: my four one K, or I hit like a certain percentage,

920
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 1: if they've got these like streamers that I haven't seen

921
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: yet that are even better, right, Like they're they're only

922
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: giving me the basic ones now for for being like

923
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: a solid saver. But you know what, if you hit

924
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: the complete nineteen max, maybe they've got these like super

925
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: dope streamers. Yeah, like the batalic confetti, so like shines

926
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: a little extra on your screen there. I mean, I

927
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: think they they're holding something back once I hit that point. Well, So,

928
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: like we're talking about the different aspects that the different

929
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: elements that make games fun, that make them addictive, like

930
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: we said earlier, and we think this is really important

931
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: that if we can identify these things and kind of

932
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 1: bridge the gap a little bit between these fun games,

933
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: the things that we find enjoyable and our money in

934
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: our personal finances, that we can also make our personal

935
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: finances more enjoyable and something that we will give more

936
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: attention to. But it's also important to note that gamification

937
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: can only get you so far. Right, maybe due to

938
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: your personality type, you're really into games and you can

939
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: get austin the fun of it. But for a lot

940
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: of folks, maybe the novelty will weigh at times or

941
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: even completely wear off. And so when this happens, it's

942
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: really important to have an overarching mission statement. Joel, you

943
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: know you kind of mentioned the why behind your money.

944
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: That is a really important thing to have. Having that

945
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: storyline that transcends the elements of simple gamification that you've

946
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: been able to work in your personal finances, that storyline

947
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: that will help to revitalize you when you're filling down

948
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: or maybe when you feel like that you're not winning

949
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: when it comes to your money. Yeah, of course, Matt

950
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: it it is essential for us to go back and

951
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: think about the underlying things, that the goals, that ultimate

952
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: goals that we have, the ultimate why behind our money,

953
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: the mission statement that we want to live our lives by.

954
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: But the reason that gamification is important is that it

955
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: can really meet us at the level of implementation, and

956
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 1: gamification can be this massive boon to our ability to

957
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: stick to those goals of saving more and eliminating debt.

958
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: And it can also just help money stuff in general

959
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: feel less frustrating. These small ways in which we can

960
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: amend our behavior or change our approach can help us

961
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: make really big money moves this year that we otherwise

962
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 1: might not have been able to do. So, Yeah, I'm

963
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: interested to hear how other people gamify their money, like

964
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: the the tools that they're using and the ways that

965
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: they're adapting their behavior. And so, yeah, if you have

966
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: some specific ways that you're gamifying your money in a

967
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: really massive way, or that you've been able to make

968
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: massive changes through kind of some gamification techniques, please share

969
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: those in the Facebook group for all of us to see,

970
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: because that kind of stuff is so helpful. Matt and

971
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: I we don't know at all. We don't know all

972
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: the ways to gamify our money, but but we do

973
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 1: know that it's an important method for us to consider. Yeah,

974
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: and different methods work for different people as well. So

975
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: something that might work for one person, like rounding up

976
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: their car payment, well that sounds like a fantastic idea

977
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 1: to somebody, right, they're gonna be able to get another

978
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: couple of payments in and pay that car off early.

979
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: But to somebody else that may not resonate as well.

980
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: So for that person, that's who we want to hear from.

981
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: We want to hear some of those other tricks. Yeah,

982
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: for sure. All right, let's get back to the year

983
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: that we had on the show today. We had a

984
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: lovely beer from modern times called astral Prism. This is

985
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: a double I p A sent to us by my

986
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: buddy Craig, who's a brewer out there, Matt, what were

987
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: your thoughts on this beer? Well, Joel, I have to

988
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: say that I am a massive fan of this beer.

989
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: Monern Times man, they've just got my number. The way

990
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: that they make their beers completely and totally resonate with me.

991
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: This double I PA to me is really good. It

992
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: has this massive hot presence, but it's not this this

993
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: happiness that leads to bitterness. It's pretty sweet. But the

994
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 1: hops they make themselves known with the pungent nature, you know,

995
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 1: like the herbally nous. But this is a really fantastic

996
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: beer poured nice and hazy. This is the type of

997
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: I PA for mama that's just completely in my wheelhouse.

998
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: How about you? What were your thoughts on this beer? Yeah?

999
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: I thought for a double I PA, it was pretty

1000
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: mellow in like a really good way. Like it definitely

1001
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: tons of hot presence, but it was so nicely balanced

1002
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: that it wasn't like punching me in the mouth in

1003
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 1: any sort of crazy ways. And it had some notes

1004
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: of guava. Obviously we have a lot of i pas

1005
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: on the show. I thought this one was super tasty.

1006
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: I love what Modern Times is doing. They make a

1007
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: ton of I p a s I don't know if

1008
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: you'd even be possible in our lifetime to drink them all.

1009
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's a little bit of an overtatement.

1010
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: But but but they make that many. I mean, you

1011
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: just wait there, dedicated to the craft of making tons

1012
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: of great i pas, and this one was just a

1013
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: really good representation of what they're really really good at

1014
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 1: of making something that is like juicy but mellow, tasty,

1015
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 1: a little sweet, and just incredibly appetizing. So yeah, I

1016
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: really appreciated this beer astral prism for modern times. Yeah,

1017
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: you and I were lucky enough to swing by the

1018
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: Dankness Dojo and that what their what their spaces called

1019
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: down there in downtown l A. We're out there last year,

1020
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: and uh yeah, we're a big fan of what they're doing.

1021
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 1: And you mentioned aguava. That's that's pretty astute. I feel

1022
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: like I totally can't pick up on some like some

1023
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: more tropical fruit flavor notes there. I totally dig that. Yeah,

1024
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: don't mess with my palette, bro. All right, that's gonna

1025
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: be it for this episode. Really fun Matt talk about

1026
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: gamification with you, and we'll have links to some of

1027
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: the apps and some of the sites that we mentioned

1028
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: up on our website at how to money dot com. Yeah, Juel.

1029
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: Speaking of the website, we've got that credit card article

1030
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: up there talking about the best credit cards to use

1031
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: depending on how you spend your money. We recently updated

1032
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: that and so we'd recommend for folks to check that

1033
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: out if you're considering getting a new credit card. We're

1034
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: hoping to be able to provide more helpful information on

1035
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 1: the website this year, and a lot of the cards

1036
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: that we discussed there, they've got some great sign up bonuses,

1037
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: and so if you were to sign up for a

1038
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: credit card via that article and via those links, it

1039
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: helps out the show. At the same time, everybody that's

1040
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: gonna be it for this episode is that it? That's it,

1041
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 1: all right, until next time, best Friends as Friends Out