Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Today, we're kicking off a two part series of interviews
Speaker 2: with members of the National, who just released their ninth
Speaker 2: album called First Two Pages of Frankenstein. Today's conversation is
Speaker 2: with Aaron Desner, the Nationals guitarist and oftentimes lead composer.
Speaker 2: Outside of the National, Aerin is also a prolific producer,
Speaker 2: having worked with a slew of artists, including most famously
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift. During the pandemic, Dessner and Swift teamed up
Speaker 2: to write music that would eventually become Taylor's critically acclaimed
Speaker 2: indie leaning albums, Folklore and Evermore. Desner also has a
Speaker 2: side project with Bonniever's Justin Vernon called Big Red Machine
Speaker 2: that features collaborations with artists including a Naias Mitchell and
Speaker 2: Sharon van Etten. On today's episode, Broken Record producer Leo
Speaker 2: Rose talks to Aaron Desner about how an invitation to
Speaker 2: open an arena tour for bonnie Ver led to him
Speaker 2: writing the music that he would eventually share with Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2: Aeron also talks about how the National almost came to
Speaker 2: a breaking point after a grueling tour schedule, and he
Speaker 2: opens up about his battle with depression as a teenager
Speaker 2: and how his twin brother Bryce carried him through. This
Speaker 2: is broken record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm
Speaker 2: justin Mitchman. Here's Lea Rose with Aaron Desner.
Speaker 3: I want to ask you about all your solo work,
Speaker 3: and you have been so prolific as a producer, as
Speaker 3: a songwriter, as a composer. But let's start by talking
Speaker 3: about the new National album. So tell me the story
Speaker 3: of the first two pages of Frankenstein.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so the first two pages of Frankenstein is
Speaker 1: the National's ninth record. A nice feeling to have made
Speaker 1: a record that I think is the best thing we've made,
Speaker 1: even though I know artists always say that, but in
Speaker 1: this case, I really do feel that it's somehow is
Speaker 1: a distillation of everything we've done, or somehow it reminds
Speaker 1: me of some of our earliest work and also some
Speaker 1: of the most developed and somehow mature and evolved, you know,
Speaker 1: at the same time. So, but the story of it,
Speaker 1: I guess by the time we released Easy to Find,
Speaker 1: which is the last record, which is a collaboration with
Speaker 1: Mike Mills, this filmmaker and featured a number of female
Speaker 1: vocalists that were duetting sort of with Matt and telling
Speaker 1: the story of a woman's life from birth to death.
Speaker 1: It was the most conceptual record we'd ever made. We
Speaker 1: were sort of dissolving the identity of The National somehow,
Speaker 1: or playing around with it more than we had before,
Speaker 1: opening it up, having other people sing the songs, and
Speaker 1: just kind of like it was after Sleep Well Beast,
Speaker 1: which we had been a big record and we'd won
Speaker 1: a Grammy for the Alternative Music Grammy, and it had
Speaker 1: gone so well, and we'd toured so much, and then
Speaker 1: Easy to Find happen and we were still on tour,
Speaker 1: and this is like it felt like the end of
Speaker 1: twenty years of touring, and we were all sort of
Speaker 1: coming apart in a way, like as a band and
Speaker 1: individually there were some we were running on fumes and
Speaker 1: everything just sort of fell apart. Like we kind of
Speaker 1: felt like it was unclear to me when The National
Speaker 1: would write again or see each other again. Everyone was
Speaker 1: in different places. My brother was in France and I
Speaker 1: was stuck here and Matt was out in la and
Speaker 1: like everyone in the world, we just kind of stayed put.
Speaker 1: So I guess this record was really it took a
Speaker 1: long It took a couple of years for us to
Speaker 1: find our feet.
Speaker 3: I was curious when you say that that last tour
Speaker 3: that you took for the album, the wheels were falling
Speaker 3: off and everything was sort of falling apart, with communication
Speaker 3: breaking down at that point. How traditionally has the band
Speaker 3: dealt with conflict in times like that.
Speaker 1: A lot has been said about the National in terms
Speaker 1: of it being this band of brothers, because there's two
Speaker 1: sets of brothers and my brother and I and then
Speaker 1: Scott and Brian Devon Dorf and then Matt who's the
Speaker 1: only one who's not a brother, but he's like he's
Speaker 1: sort of central figure as a singer and lyricist. And
Speaker 1: historically Matt and I have butted heads because I tend
Speaker 1: to generate most of the music, and we love each
Speaker 1: other and we obviously are such good collaborators, but like,
Speaker 1: if there's a disagreement, it was often between him and
Speaker 1: I over like the push and pull of trying to
Speaker 1: make something as good as we can. But actually it
Speaker 1: was never that bad, really, I think we just also
Speaker 1: it's like part of the identity of the band was
Speaker 1: like this dysfunctional family or something. But over many, many
Speaker 1: years of touring. I mean, because we sort of built
Speaker 1: this band brick by brick from it started in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety nine. In two thousand and one, we started touring,
Speaker 1: and we didn't really ever stop for more than a
Speaker 1: month or two all those years, you know, and starting
Speaker 1: with like in two thousand and five, Alligator came out,
Speaker 1: and then it was Boxer, and then it was High Violet,
Speaker 1: Trouble Will Find Me, Sleepobies Easy to Find, and all
Speaker 1: of those records. I don't really think we made a
Speaker 1: bad record, you know. I think we just kept making
Speaker 1: better records or you know, they're all they're kind of siblings,
Speaker 1: these records, And it did take a lot out of
Speaker 1: us because at the same time we were touring, and
Speaker 1: I just think at some point during Easy fin we
Speaker 1: woke up and everyone was like moving in the opposite
Speaker 1: direction from each other, but not out of any real spite.
Speaker 1: It was a combination of maybe needing space from the
Speaker 1: band and each other, but also we just don't want
Speaker 1: to make anything that doesn't feel really inspired. So I
Speaker 1: think at some point it was just started to feel
Speaker 1: when I see the wheels were coming off, it was
Speaker 1: just that feeling of your running on fumes and maybe
Speaker 1: the well has gone dry a little bit. And the
Speaker 1: day that Easy to Find came out, justin Vernon, Bonnie
Speaker 1: Bear justin Vernon had called me. We'd you know, been
Speaker 1: friends for a really long time and had gone so
Speaker 1: close and obviously collaborated on many things, including Big Red Machine,
Speaker 1: and we've been making all this Big Red Machine music
Speaker 1: that was exciting. But he was scheduling this big European tour.
Speaker 1: It was this arena chair that was supposed to be
Speaker 1: in the fall of twenty twenty, I think, and he
Speaker 1: called me the day Easy to Find came out, He said,
Speaker 1: would you open my tour by yourself? He said, would
Speaker 1: you open my tour? And I was like, well, what
Speaker 1: do you mean? And he's like, well, I want you
Speaker 1: to open it just by yourself. And I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I've never actually played any I've never played any music
Speaker 1: by myself in front of people, not even like an
Speaker 1: open mic, you know that. He sort of said, but
Speaker 1: I know I've seen I've seen what you do, and
Speaker 1: I know what you do, and I think it'd be
Speaker 1: really interesting.
Speaker 3: What a beautiful compliment. I mean, that's just like so
Speaker 3: incredible that he would believe in you at that level, like, yeah,
Speaker 3: that did that feel really motivating for you?
Speaker 1: It was a challenge. I mean, he's a really lovely
Speaker 1: person and intuitive kind of friend, and he I think
Speaker 1: he was interested in what it would do creatively for
Speaker 1: me and so and it wasn't in opposition to anything,
Speaker 1: not definitely, not in opposition to the national It was
Speaker 1: just like do it, just do it. And I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll do it. And so from that point I started
Speaker 1: to write a lot of music just thinking about how
Speaker 1: would I do that? How would I stand in the
Speaker 1: Wembley Arena by myself and play for fifteen thousand people,
Speaker 1: or you know, how would I do that? And it
Speaker 1: was a good challenge and so I started that really
Speaker 1: like started this during the Easy to Find Her. I
Speaker 1: was making all this stuff. So that year when we
Speaker 1: were touring for that record, in the backstages and everywhere,
Speaker 1: I was writing all this music that I took to
Speaker 1: the point of being ready kind of for me to
Speaker 1: cause I knew that it was coming. And then the
Speaker 1: pandemic hit and I was like, oh, okay, well glad
Speaker 1: I did all that, but now what's it for?
Speaker 3: Oh? Were you disappointed?
Speaker 1: I wasn't disappointed. Actually I was relieved maybe that I
Speaker 1: didn't have to do it because it was actually terrifying.
Speaker 1: But I think that it kind of like started an
Speaker 1: interesting growth for me. And I say this with regard
Speaker 1: to where the National was. I feel like there are
Speaker 1: clues in that also to eventually how I came back
Speaker 1: to work on new national music, because it was clear
Speaker 1: to me as I was making this music, you know,
Speaker 1: to open the bony virtue, that it wasn't national music,
Speaker 1: it was something else. And actually a lot of that
Speaker 1: stuff ended up being what I shared with Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: when she approached me during the pandemic or like in
Speaker 1: April twenty twenty. But basically I was feeling very prolific
Speaker 1: and very creative. But it was for the first time
Speaker 1: I knew that it was for something else instead of
Speaker 1: always I was always directed into the National for all
Speaker 1: those years, and then suddenly I found myself widely collaborating
Speaker 1: outside of it, which was exciting. And I think that
Speaker 1: the story of this record is kind of the story
Speaker 1: of us all having a lot of experiences and growing,
Speaker 1: I think, and also sort of hibernating and taking care
Speaker 1: of ourselves and their loved ones during this weird time
Speaker 1: and then eventually coming back into it and really leaning
Speaker 1: into each other in our strengths and kind of saying,
Speaker 1: I don't know, this was actually, weirdly the most harmonious
Speaker 1: process that we've ever had. And I think it was
Speaker 1: because we had space, you know, from right, And.
Speaker 3: It sounds like everyone was able to focus on different
Speaker 3: projects if they wanted, or just get time to sort
Speaker 3: of like you know, replenish themselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Like at some point, you know, I
Speaker 1: ended up in this wildly prolific time with Taylor collaborating remotely,
Speaker 1: and we made folklore, and then we made evermore all
Speaker 1: in the same year and at the same time. Then
Speaker 1: I finished the Big the second Bigger Machine record, and
Speaker 1: made a ton of music with all sorts of people.
Speaker 1: But at some point I started to have the realization
Speaker 1: that I would be making music and I'd be like, wait,
Speaker 1: this is a national song.
Speaker 3: So how do you know when it's a national song.
Speaker 1: It's because you can feel the engine of the band
Speaker 1: in your hands or in your heart. You start to
Speaker 1: I'll make something because I if I pick up an
Speaker 1: instrument or sit down an instrument, it's very natural for
Speaker 1: me that I it almost immediately I start generating. It's
Speaker 1: just the way I think it comes from when I
Speaker 1: was a kid, Like how I relate to music. It's
Speaker 1: not like it's almost physical and visceral. It's an emotional
Speaker 1: process where I'm I'm like tapping into a current within myself.
Speaker 1: But the way it comes out on instruments it kind
Speaker 1: of feels locomotive or meditative or sort of. Oftentimes it's
Speaker 1: this sort of circular patterns and behaviors. There's certain ways
Speaker 1: of playing or feeling where I can feel how the
Speaker 1: others might bounce off of it, or like, oh, like
Speaker 1: I could hear my brother or harmonizing what I'm playing,
Speaker 1: or I could hear Brian like his No one can
Speaker 1: drum like him, and when he really locks into something,
Speaker 1: it becomes so much more. Or the way Matt and
Speaker 1: even like sometimes you start to hear your bandmates because
Speaker 1: it is it's like this family feeling. So that started
Speaker 1: to come back at some point in a very strong way.
Speaker 1: So I started to have a folder of ideas that
Speaker 1: I felt were really strong, and then my brother did too,
Speaker 1: and it just started the well started to fill and
Speaker 1: eventually it was overflowing. But this is a this is
Speaker 1: a good like well over a year, year, a year
Speaker 1: and a half after we'd said goodbye, not knowing it
Speaker 1: was goodbye. I think it was the last show as
Speaker 1: in Lisbon, Portugal in December twenty nineteen, and it was
Speaker 1: like in this beautiful in the Kempo Pekenyo I think
Speaker 1: it was Kempo Peginio or in the Colisseum, fifteen thousand
Speaker 1: people wow, and they were all it was just this
Speaker 1: amazing show. And I remember thinking, if this is the
Speaker 1: last National show, this would be a good way to
Speaker 1: end it. And then it seemed like it was the
Speaker 1: end of it, you know, both because of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: but also because of just where we all were for
Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, So it was just it was a
Speaker 1: nice feeling when the well suddenly was full. And I
Speaker 1: remember just sharing music with Matt finally and being like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, there might be things in here, you know.
Speaker 3: So when you're writing music for the National, when you
Speaker 3: sit down and if you're writing on guitar or you're
Speaker 3: writing on piano or whatever it is, whatever the instrument is,
Speaker 3: do you hear phantom parts from other members in the band.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I think after so many years of
Speaker 1: working together. We're very aware of each other. I mean
Speaker 1: because Bryce and Brian and I have played together since
Speaker 1: we were in middle school, and Bryce and I since
Speaker 1: we're tiny, but I naturally know when there's a pocket
Speaker 1: that Brian can exploit, you know, or can kind of
Speaker 1: like we joke it's like, well is the horse is
Speaker 1: the horse? You're gonna run sort of like you pull
Speaker 1: him out of the barn. And because it is like that,
Speaker 1: like when he hooks into something, it's kind of a
Speaker 1: it's just a feeling. But yeah, I hear, particularly I
Speaker 1: hear my brother, you know, both what he can do
Speaker 1: with the guitar to what I'm doing with the guitar
Speaker 1: or piano or anything whatever I'm playing, but also like
Speaker 1: his orchestration and how he might add complexity to something
Speaker 1: or develop it. And that's it does seem. Really part
Speaker 1: of the gift of the band is that we don't
Speaker 1: seem to get stuck or stale. Somehow, it feels like
Speaker 1: it's it still feels ever when we actually try to
Speaker 1: make something. It kind of because we also throw away
Speaker 1: a lot and we get sick of we probably made.
Speaker 1: We made a lot more music for this record than
Speaker 1: we ultimately put on it, and a lot of it's
Speaker 1: really strong, but I think there's a it's hard for
Speaker 1: five people to feel confident.
Speaker 3: Yeah, how does that process work when you have a
Speaker 3: song you're working on and let's say like three people
Speaker 3: in the band think it's great, good to go, like
Speaker 3: should be on the album, somebody's a holdout, How does
Speaker 3: that process work?
Speaker 1: Well, there is, I would say Matt and I tend
Speaker 1: to be the most opinionated or some or the most
Speaker 1: focused in the weeds, you know, and we tend to
Speaker 1: try to agree or to argue between ourselves and then agree.
Speaker 1: So for this record, eventually Matt called me after we'd
Speaker 1: made probably twenty five songs and finished them and mix them,
Speaker 1: and he said, and it was kind of because in
Speaker 1: the past there were these elaborate chess matches of sort
Speaker 1: of even that like kind of a mind games we
Speaker 1: would have to play with each other where it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like he used stalking horses, where you're like,
Speaker 1: you pretend to really care about a song that you
Speaker 1: don't care about so you can give it up so
Speaker 1: he doesn't go after the one that you actually care about.
Speaker 1: And we would do that even with like parts of
Speaker 1: songs like it's really funny like there and that song
Speaker 1: the System Only Dreams in Total Darkness. That's on Sleep
Speaker 1: Well Beast. There's this big I play this big guitar
Speaker 1: solo that I knew he loved, you know, but then
Speaker 1: he was he didn't like this layer of percussion I
Speaker 1: really loved. So I was like, fine, we can turn
Speaker 1: off the percussion, but I'm also going to turn off
Speaker 1: the guitar solo because I can't live with the guitar
Speaker 1: so if it doesn't have the support of the percussion.
Speaker 1: He's like, no, no, you can't turn off the guitar.
Speaker 1: So so we like that was like, yeah, that was
Speaker 1: back when we were more childish, But this time he Matt.
Speaker 1: Matt had gone through a hard time with like writers, blocking,
Speaker 1: just some the pandemic was a hard period for him,
Speaker 1: and he came out of it and really gradually just
Speaker 1: he started to write and write and write, and towards
Speaker 1: the end, they just kept being more and more songs
Speaker 1: that we were finishing. So what we thought was the
Speaker 1: record kept evolving, and eventually what it became was quite
Speaker 1: different from the first you know, several months we were
Speaker 1: working on it, like by last spring, it had kind
Speaker 1: of morphed into something else. And he called me when
Speaker 1: we were done mixing, and he said, you know, we
Speaker 1: had mixed almost two records worth of material, and he said, look,
Speaker 1: I think it's these eleven songs. And for the first
Speaker 1: time ever, I just was so relieved and happy and
Speaker 1: confident to hear his vision, you know, and to feel
Speaker 1: how to feel how inspired he was and the clarity
Speaker 1: in his mind. And I just embraced it. And then
Speaker 1: I called my brother because he would be the next
Speaker 1: most difficult.
Speaker 3: It's like all these people you have to convince.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think Bryce would have preferred that he
Speaker 1: and I had had a conversation before that conversation with Matt,
Speaker 1: because there's some interest, there's some really interesting, amazing songs
Speaker 1: that aren't on it, or that are more complex musically
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. But and so I had to
Speaker 1: have that conversation with Bryce. But it took, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe took a second for Bryce to see that Matt
Speaker 1: was right. But he I think Matt he had somehow
Speaker 1: distilled what the story and emotional framework and current of
Speaker 1: the record was and he felt and he sort of
Speaker 1: had it. And so that was really a nice feeling.
Speaker 1: And I also think it relates to where I was
Speaker 1: personally having made all this other music and having generated
Speaker 1: so much, I became less attached to any one idea
Speaker 1: and also maybe more trusting of someone else's vision and
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, just some space from the
Speaker 1: national helped me kind of relax about it.
Speaker 3: Also, did you feel more confident in yourself as a
Speaker 3: as a producer or as a musician at that point, Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was like during the pandemic. I just for the
Speaker 1: first time and almost two decades, I got to be
Speaker 1: home and just walk the fifty yards or whatever it
Speaker 1: is between my house and the studio every day and
Speaker 1: work really intensely with people, you know, like that work
Speaker 1: that I did with Taylor. I was learning so much
Speaker 1: just every day from her and from the process, and
Speaker 1: growing more confident, I guess, having more seeing how she
Speaker 1: could bounce off the music I was making, and how
Speaker 1: we could write and finish songs that I was so
Speaker 1: compelled by, and then that process, you know, going into
Speaker 1: working with other people. I did. I grew a lot
Speaker 1: as a producer and as a songwriter, and I think
Speaker 1: I did also come to really value and appreciate what
Speaker 1: the National is capable of in my collaboration with all
Speaker 1: of them and with Matt, just how meaningful it is
Speaker 1: and and trusting that you know that all these songs
Speaker 1: are amazing. You know, they're compelling, and they're in there.
Speaker 1: There's for anything to get to the point of being done.
Speaker 1: It already has so much there. So like, if there's
Speaker 1: twenty five songs and we choose eleven for a record,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that the other fourteen won't eventually, you know,
Speaker 1: also see the light of day. We used to hold
Speaker 1: everything so tightly because we were terrified, terrified of like
Speaker 1: none of us are natural entertainers and none of us
Speaker 1: are that. We kind of came up through the indie
Speaker 1: rock gauntlet of Pitchfork and you know, live or die
Speaker 1: by each record. If like, we all wanted to do
Speaker 1: this and we loved it so much, but we could
Speaker 1: also we knew how tenu it was and how I
Speaker 1: don't know. We were never the type of band to
Speaker 1: fall in love with our shadow or think we were
Speaker 1: that great. We were kind of the opposite. We thought
Speaker 1: we were like the bad News Bears all the time
Speaker 1: and still do. It's like we're still kind of like
Speaker 1: we don't celebrate any achievement for very long, and we
Speaker 1: kind of dwell on the on anything that's vaguely pathetic,
Speaker 1: you know, we're kind of like, that's the thing we noticed.
Speaker 1: It's like instead of being like, wow, you know, traffic
Speaker 1: Morning News is number five on the Triple h RT,
Speaker 1: we're like, wow, we're stuck at number five below the
Speaker 1: Dave Matthew's been like, oh well, but that's just kind
Speaker 1: of that. It's like the nature of self effacing Ohio
Speaker 1: or something where we come from is kind of like
Speaker 1: just don't don't think you're all that.
Speaker 3: That could be helpful, though totally.
Speaker 1: I wish sometimes I could enjoy it all a little more.
Speaker 1: My brother and I talk about this, is like why
Speaker 1: like even when we want a Grammy or something and
Speaker 1: I've won Grammys, and like even I kind of like,
Speaker 1: instead of thinking that's fun yor great, I'm the type
Speaker 1: to be like, well, my favorite artists have never won
Speaker 1: Grammys or you know, that kind of thing, like so
Speaker 1: like what does it really mean? Anyways, Yeah, that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. But anyways, I'm trying to get better at
Speaker 1: just enjoying the enjoying the moment.
Speaker 2: We have to take a quick break, and then we'll
Speaker 2: come back with more from Leo Rose and Aaron Desner.
Speaker 2: We're back with Aaron Dosner and Leo Rose.
Speaker 3: I saw pictures of you at the Grammys this year,
Speaker 3: like sitting sort of like at Taylor's table or near her,
Speaker 3: and I was just wondering, like, what was that like
Speaker 3: for you being in that scene? Is it fun? Like?
Speaker 3: Is it a fun night?
Speaker 1: I mean, Taylor is amazing. She's a good like we've
Speaker 1: become really close friends, and she couldn't be more lovely
Speaker 1: and fun and just she's legitimately just a really lovely,
Speaker 1: hyper intelligent, down to earth person. So I love hanging
Speaker 1: out with her. And even in that, like I think
Speaker 1: those situations it's so unnatural for me to be have
Speaker 1: a camera in my face or be in the spotlight
Speaker 1: like that or have to look like I'm having a
Speaker 1: good time all the time, but genuinely hanging out with
Speaker 1: her and with Jack Antonoff and Margaret quality with it.
Speaker 1: We're sitting with us and it was just fun. So
Speaker 1: I was able to relax and have fun. And she's
Speaker 1: really It's intense for her also, I would imagine because
Speaker 1: there's always attention on her because of who she is,
Speaker 1: but she manages to have a good time and to
Speaker 1: help people around her have a good time. So I
Speaker 1: was lucky in that sense. And I've even you know,
Speaker 1: because we went to the pandemic Grammys altogether for Folklore
Speaker 1: when we won, so that I was thankful for that
Speaker 1: because i'd sort of this was quite different. It was
Speaker 1: much more like whoa. This was more in a weird way.
Speaker 1: This was more fun, was like more energy. The Folklore
Speaker 1: one was almost like easier though, because there was just
Speaker 1: no You just went and said out a tiny little
Speaker 1: table and there was no audience.
Speaker 3: It was a bizarre scene. Yeah, I was looking at
Speaker 3: that like, wow, this is such a strange Grammys.
Speaker 1: Totally, but it is. I think it's been really fun
Speaker 1: to be around that, you know, as as I've been
Speaker 1: to the Grammys a few times, like with the National
Speaker 1: went years ago when we were nominated for Trouble Will
Speaker 1: Find Me, and we had no idea what the Grammys
Speaker 1: were actually like, so we didn't realize that our Grammy,
Speaker 1: the Alternative Rock or Alternative Music one that we were
Speaker 1: nominated for, was actually not part of the telecast and
Speaker 1: so oh, we were kind of in our tickets to
Speaker 1: the actual real we joke, the real Grammys, the part
Speaker 1: that's like the eight Awards or whatever it is that
Speaker 1: are actually on TV. Like our tickets for that we
Speaker 1: were like way back, you know, not even like in
Speaker 1: the like in the noses, and it was kind of
Speaker 1: like and we were all just like, well, why did
Speaker 1: we even come? And who cares? And so the next
Speaker 1: year or a couple of years later, when sleep Obeast
Speaker 1: was nominated, we just didn't go. And actually Scott was
Speaker 1: the only one who went because he was in town.
Speaker 1: And then I was actually in the shower, not watching
Speaker 1: and ingrid my. I have my daughter who's now eleven.
Speaker 1: But she came in and she was like, Daddy, like
Speaker 1: you want a Grammy? Like is that bad? Is that bad?
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, well it's not bad. She's
Speaker 1: and it's like is it good. I was like, well,
Speaker 1: it's not exactly good, you know. But fast forward to
Speaker 1: Folklore Grammys. It was fun to actually just like have
Speaker 1: a great time and I think it really deserved to win.
Speaker 1: And Taylor is it was really fun to perform with.
Speaker 1: It was amazing, like actually performing with her and Jack.
Speaker 1: And then Taylor won for Best Video, which was great.
Speaker 1: And so I don't know, it's fun. It's like I'm
Speaker 1: learning to just go with the flow and have fun
Speaker 1: and not not really think that much about it.
Speaker 3: So it must be interesting to see her in different environments,
Speaker 3: because when you were working on Folklore and Evermore, it
Speaker 3: sounds like you were just sort of hold up in
Speaker 3: your studio, and it was during the pandemic, so I imagine
Speaker 3: there weren't many people around and you were just collaborating
Speaker 3: on music and writing music. And then to see her
Speaker 3: in a setting like the Grammys where she's like one
Speaker 3: of the biggest superstars in the room, Yeah, what did
Speaker 3: you learn from seeing those two sides of her?
Speaker 1: It is interesting yet, because I got to know her
Speaker 1: closely in a time where she was very much out
Speaker 1: of the public eye. And I think very much the
Speaker 1: work that we did with Folklore and Evermore we benefited
Speaker 1: from sort of everything had stopped and we were just
Speaker 1: really making the music that felt natural in that moment,
Speaker 1: and this kind of exchange of ideas was rapid and
Speaker 1: very prolific and very you know, her songwriting and the
Speaker 1: music I was making in the music we were making
Speaker 1: together just felt incredibly natural, and we got eventually we
Speaker 1: got to spend time together and do work here at
Speaker 1: Long Pond, and folklore was all remote. But then evermore
Speaker 1: we were together more and we had amazing moments, you know,
Speaker 1: and just kind of sitting with this, how did this happen?
Speaker 1: How do we make all all of this stuff that
Speaker 1: is so meaningful to us and eventually to you know,
Speaker 1: when it got released to her fans and to all
Speaker 1: my fans, and just it felt like this whole story
Speaker 1: that had almost written itself during that time, and it
Speaker 1: was you know, special, and it was really different than
Speaker 1: when everything restarted, and you know, we collac I did
Speaker 1: work on I was lucky to participate in the re
Speaker 1: recording of Fearless and of Red, and she contributed to
Speaker 1: the Big Rid Machine, and there was all the kind
Speaker 1: of like that collaborative process and energy continues to this day.
Speaker 1: And so I would say, now, you know, she's about
Speaker 1: to go on what will be the biggest tour in history,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's just fair very much the same person.
Speaker 1: You know. It's just even though she's like when I
Speaker 1: see her in a quiet setting and she's like making
Speaker 1: dinner or something, and the person that has to be,
Speaker 1: you know, in the Spotlight. It's the same same persons.
Speaker 1: I learn a lot from that. It's very I don't know,
Speaker 1: just give me faith and people and and the way
Speaker 1: she is kind and appreciative of all of her success.
Speaker 1: And frankly, like when having worked with her, it's even
Speaker 1: though she's has achieved so much, it's not that surprising
Speaker 1: to me because I see how hard she works and
Speaker 1: how talent talented she is. So I don't in that sense,
Speaker 1: I do I find that really harmonious or something, But
Speaker 1: I know what you mean. It's kind of like it's
Speaker 1: a different feeling. And also I think that she's smart
Speaker 1: the way that she evolves. And even like the music
Speaker 1: we made for Midnight's like one of our I think
Speaker 1: the best time I've ever written is called what Have,
Speaker 1: could Have? Should Have?
Speaker 3: How did that song come together?
Speaker 1: I mean, the truth is that song. We wrote that
Speaker 1: song together and recorded it while we were together in
Speaker 1: LA for the Folklore Grammys, so that it goes back
Speaker 1: that far. And then the same with high infidelity, and
Speaker 1: those songs we actually recorded in her house the vocals
Speaker 1: who recorded them then and I just kept making music,
Speaker 1: and it was kind of like after we had made
Speaker 1: Folklore and evermore, I started to have ideas which I
Speaker 1: would share, and eventually she obviously made most of Midnights
Speaker 1: with Jack and it became something different. But you know,
Speaker 1: the you know, high in fidelity and would have, could have,
Speaker 1: should have in the Great War, and we made hits
Speaker 1: different with Jack and Taylor and I also, and it
Speaker 1: was great to be a part of that record in
Speaker 1: that way. It was really special.
Speaker 3: Are you working on new music now?
Speaker 1: I'm probably not at liberty to say, but I think
Speaker 1: we Yeah, I mean I thought.
Speaker 3: You would say that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like once you.
Speaker 3: Sounds like you're always sounds like you're always working. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's like she's slow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a very she's a prolific songwriter and she
Speaker 1: doesn't really stand still and and and I'm done either,
Speaker 1: you know. So there's a nice there's just a nice
Speaker 1: exchange of ideas that is ongoing.
Speaker 3: Do you ever analyze that, like with with Taylor being
Speaker 3: such a prolific songwriter or with you being so prolific
Speaker 3: with the music that you write or whoever you're working with,
Speaker 3: do you sit and analyze where these ideas come from.
Speaker 1: A little bit? Yeah, Like I I've become aware that
Speaker 1: it's for me, where the music comes, it feels like
Speaker 1: it comes from inside. I originally feel like I became
Speaker 1: very generative as a musician in terms of creating ideas
Speaker 1: and sketches I call them, but they're basically songs without
Speaker 1: word words. When I was a teenager and I was
Speaker 1: sort of suffered, I was kind of had a very
Speaker 1: depressive streak in my teenageyers like a lot of people do.
Speaker 1: But music was this outlet and I always felt like
Speaker 1: I was harvesting what was inside, this commotional ambiguity or
Speaker 1: just joy and sadness coexisting inside of me. And it
Speaker 1: was cathartic just to kind of like harvest it in
Speaker 1: music and that you could make music which might really
Speaker 1: express what you're feeling. And you know, that was always
Speaker 1: what it was. It's how I make music. And sometimes
Speaker 1: you feel like it rings you dry, like it can
Speaker 1: kind of feel like you're ringing out a rag in
Speaker 1: the water there's no more water left or something. Or
Speaker 1: sometimes I feel a little bit like I don't have
Speaker 1: anything left to give, But then it comes back and
Speaker 1: it fills up again. And there's certain people that I
Speaker 1: just click with in this very deep way, like Taylor,
Speaker 1: which I had no idea would happen other did she,
Speaker 1: but somehow she The music that I shared with hers
Speaker 1: a Cardigan that sketch, which was something I had been writing,
Speaker 1: was the first song that she wrote for Folklore to
Speaker 1: music that I had shared, and it was and she
Speaker 1: tells the story well that it felt like there were
Speaker 1: images in it in the sound. There was like a
Speaker 1: story in the sound that she was hearing, and she
Speaker 1: was able and she you know, it's her story in
Speaker 1: her words, but she felt like it was telling her something.
Speaker 1: And Matt has said things like that as well, that
Speaker 1: he feels like the music when he listens to it's
Speaker 1: like a soundtrack to a film that's already exists or something,
Speaker 1: or story that is writing itself, or just some somehow
Speaker 1: he's tapping into something. And I guess that's my feeling
Speaker 1: is I try to write music that I can listen
Speaker 1: to on its own and that feels like it's already
Speaker 1: about something, even though I'm like, it's not entirely clear
Speaker 1: what it's about, and then certain writers are able to
Speaker 1: give it shape and substance, and I love that process.
Speaker 1: It feels risky when you share it because you just
Speaker 1: you like step over that Cliff of like, no matter
Speaker 1: how many songs you've made it or how many people
Speaker 1: you've worked with, it always feels vulnerable when you open
Speaker 1: yourself up to someone because they might not hear anything
Speaker 1: or click with anything. You know. So and in Taylor's case,
Speaker 1: it felt really when she asked if I had anything
Speaker 1: or if I would want to collaborate remotely, and I
Speaker 1: had this whole folder of stuff I'd been working on intensely.
Speaker 1: But before I said that.
Speaker 3: Was your solo material, right to open for the bony Bear.
Speaker 1: It was, yeah, a lot of it was or I
Speaker 1: thought I didn't really know, but I thought it was
Speaker 1: stuff I had been developing to try to figure out
Speaker 1: what that was, you know. And she kind of said
Speaker 1: in a really beautiful way, she said, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: It could be the weirdest thing you've ever done. I
Speaker 1: would love to hear it, or there could be the
Speaker 1: most unstructured you know, but there's a moment of vulnerability
Speaker 1: any time you open yourself up and share that way,
Speaker 1: because I could have shared it and then never heard
Speaker 1: anything again, you know, or it would have been like
Speaker 1: and I feel that way still even with Matt, who
Speaker 1: have written a million songs with. Yeah, it's like if
Speaker 1: the thing I love most he doesn't click with it
Speaker 1: still hurts, you know, or still feels still feels vulnerable.
Speaker 3: Well you have to Jedi mind trick him into liking it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. Again, Like that's elaborate, I do. I've
Speaker 1: gotten pretty crafty about that too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that feels very much like a sibling relationship.
Speaker 1: It is. Yeah, it's it's kind of like pretend to
Speaker 1: care about the thing you actually don't care about, because
Speaker 1: they'll increase the chances he goes for the one you
Speaker 1: do care about. Whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I heard John Fraschante talking about something very similar.
Speaker 3: When he brings ideas to the Chili Peppers, he'll just
Speaker 3: be really like casual about it, Yeah, and act like
Speaker 3: he's not completely in love with it and attached to it.
Speaker 3: And the more casual it is, the more likely Anthony
Speaker 3: and Flea are to just, you know, sort of like
Speaker 3: take it on and try it out.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah, that's it. Bands are these It's like
Speaker 1: being in a in a intimately an intimate but platonic
Speaker 1: relationship with multiple people simultaneously, and you're just like trying
Speaker 1: to navigate that.
Speaker 3: Right in the national are there like clicks like when
Speaker 3: you guys were on tour, like who hangs out with who?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's elaborate. Like somebody asked me recently. I
Speaker 1: can't remember who it was, but we were going to
Speaker 1: be in New York and they're like, oh, like, maybe
Speaker 1: we can hang out, but I wouldn't want to take
Speaker 1: you away from your bandmates. And I was like, oh, like,
Speaker 1: we haven't hung out in like fifteen years or something.
Speaker 1: Don't worry. But no, there are there are these clicks
Speaker 1: where it's like we joke. There's the Running Club, which
Speaker 1: is my brother and I and Ben Lands and Kyle
Speaker 1: Resnick who played trumpet and trombone or interesting lovely people,
Speaker 1: and we all really hang out. It's like the we
Speaker 1: go running and then we'll go to dinner, whereas Matt
Speaker 1: and Scott and Brian kind of keep They kind of
Speaker 1: do their own thing and have their own Scott hangs
Speaker 1: out actually with he it's funny. He's he's really close
Speaker 1: with all the crew and he's kind of the most likable,
Speaker 1: likable member of the band. And Matt is very solitary
Speaker 1: because he kind of needs to he needs space and
Speaker 1: also to rest, so he kind of you hardly see
Speaker 1: him unless he's on stage, which is funny. And then
Speaker 1: Brian is just he's wonderful. He kind of like sets
Speaker 1: up a gym and like works out and relaxes all
Speaker 1: day long and and has his own vibe too. But
Speaker 1: it is bands are I don't know, bands, especially the
Speaker 1: eight like the band that's the twenty where I think
Speaker 1: it's the twenty fourth year of the band. Now. It's
Speaker 1: just like it's the weirdest thing. You know. People that
Speaker 1: come right, they're just like, what is going on?
Speaker 3: And especially the age that you got together in the
Speaker 3: age everyone is now, there's so much evolution, personal evolution
Speaker 3: that happens during that period of time. Yeah, when you're
Speaker 3: sort of like separating from from being a kid and
Speaker 3: being with your parents, you're out on your own and
Speaker 3: then starting your own families.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone, It's true. Everyone has We kind of like
Speaker 1: have had all the wreckage. Not all the wreckage fortunately,
Speaker 1: but a lot of the wreckage that comes with the
Speaker 1: territory of rock and roll and just you know, fortunately
Speaker 1: none of the terrible nothing too terrible, but it's like
Speaker 1: we've all had our moments of struggling and then coming
Speaker 1: through it. Yeah, and everyone's been there for each other,
Speaker 1: so that there's a warm feeling to that, but there's
Speaker 1: also a recognition that you don't have to always be
Speaker 1: best friends, you know, and you don't have to hang
Speaker 1: out when you're not on tour, but that were there
Speaker 1: and it is like a family, and some of us
Speaker 1: spend more time together than others, and it goes way back,
Speaker 1: so there's still like Brian and I were in the
Speaker 1: middle same middle school advisor class when we were thirteen
Speaker 1: and fourteen, and we were on the middle school basketball
Speaker 1: team together with Bryce, and that familiarity and that closeness
Speaker 1: is wonderful when you're in Tokyo in to twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: and or when you're like terrified because you're about to
Speaker 1: go on stage before the biggest crowd you've ever played
Speaker 1: in front of and Lisbon in twenty twenty two and
Speaker 1: there's whatever it is, one hundred thousand people out there
Speaker 1: at the festival, and you know that it's the person
Speaker 1: that you were like passing the basketball to when you're thirteen.
Speaker 1: It's like this, there is this feeling of like, well,
Speaker 1: it doesn't actually matter if we fuck this up, because
Speaker 1: there's always going to be another day, and you know,
Speaker 1: it does feel like that, But we joke a lot.
Speaker 1: Now I'm like, well, this is like a pretty good
Speaker 1: song for the late period of the band. It feels
Speaker 1: like a high water mark of the late period. Or
Speaker 1: I'm like, where we joke about older songs, We're like,
Speaker 1: that was kind of a miss. You know.
Speaker 3: Do you imagine you all will still be together when
Speaker 3: you're in your seventies and eighties, still playing.
Speaker 1: It is a funny thing to think about because sometimes
Speaker 1: like I'm going to bank it's so ridiculous, you know,
Speaker 1: but I think we will. Actually, I think it's like
Speaker 1: the songs don't get tired, and it is interesting. I
Speaker 1: think I'll play music my whole life, and I would
Speaker 1: want to play music with my brother and with these guys,
Speaker 1: and it can evolve in this record that we made.
Speaker 1: It really feels it just feels really inspired. And you
Speaker 1: can hear the ferocity that we're capable of and the subtlety,
Speaker 1: and you can hear the improvisation and the composition and
Speaker 1: the accidental kind of magic that sometimes happens all alongside
Speaker 1: each other, and that just feels really refreshing to me.
Speaker 1: Like how to like it would be hard to do that,
Speaker 1: to make that, but we did. It's kind of scary
Speaker 1: to think about trying to do it again, but like
Speaker 1: that's always what happens, is like you make something and
Speaker 1: you're like oh, and you kind of fall in love
Speaker 1: with it, but then you're like, oh shit, and now
Speaker 1: I have to try to like what's next? You know. Anyways,
Speaker 1: I feel very grateful for it right now.
Speaker 3: What do you think you would have thought if you were,
Speaker 3: let's say, like twenty years old seeing your life now,
Speaker 3: how do you think you would think of yourself as
Speaker 3: like someone who is approaching middle age?
Speaker 1: It is crazy sometimes to reflect on how you end
Speaker 1: up where you end up and why your life takes
Speaker 1: the shape that it does. And mine has changed dramatically
Speaker 1: in the last few years, just all the work that
Speaker 1: I've been doing and music I've been making, and it's
Speaker 1: kind of like I know that I worked up to
Speaker 1: it and that I can back it up with experience
Speaker 1: and all the hard work and knowledge. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like I don't feel out of my depth, really, but
Speaker 1: it still feels like there's a big element of luck.
Speaker 1: And I know so many really talented people, equally deserving,
Speaker 1: equally hardworking that maybe haven't had the same level of
Speaker 1: success or exposure. And so there's an element of like
Speaker 1: music and the entertainment industry in general that I think
Speaker 1: is kind of haphazard or kind of it lacks structure
Speaker 1: and it's dependent on I mean, I guess hard work
Speaker 1: and persistence equals luck basically, is what I've come to realize.
Speaker 1: And so with my twenty year old self, I think
Speaker 1: I had my nose to the ground and I was
Speaker 1: just maybe we were raised in a way too. There
Speaker 1: were high expectations or pressure on us from early age
Speaker 1: because my dad, I don't know, because of his childhood
Speaker 1: or something. He didn't have much opportunity growing up. He
Speaker 1: was a child of immigrants, growing up in Brooklyn and
Speaker 1: Queens and sharing a room with his three brothers, and
Speaker 1: just like he wanted us to achieve a lot, you know,
Speaker 1: and he put a lot of pressure on us, and
Speaker 1: it was kind of like it was difficult. I remember
Speaker 1: feeling like kind of like that he always expected us
Speaker 1: to get like perfect grades and be great at everything
Speaker 1: we would do. But in a I guess in a
Speaker 1: positive since it created a lot of I became very
Speaker 1: hard working and I didn't ever think I was very
Speaker 1: good at anything because and it caused me to keep pushing.
Speaker 1: It's only been recently that I've been able to be like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is kind of I guess we And it happened
Speaker 1: gradually every time you like end up on some big
Speaker 1: stage with the national looking out and people like there's
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of people singing these songs, and you
Speaker 1: have these moments of like, wow, this is I got
Speaker 1: somewhere you know this is and this is interesting. But
Speaker 1: I still my attitude is still not to hold that
Speaker 1: too close because your successes and your failures you just
Speaker 1: coexist with all of it, and or like your your
Speaker 1: the criticism you receive and the plaudits you receive, you
Speaker 1: have to kind of take the good with the bad.
Speaker 1: And for every time that you're lifted up by something,
Speaker 1: you're also you're gonna flail, you know, the day next
Speaker 1: day or be pulled down. I don't know, but I
Speaker 1: do feel really lucky.
Speaker 2: We'll be back after another quick break with more from
Speaker 2: Leo Rose and Aaron Desner. We're back with the rest
Speaker 2: of Leo Rose's conversation with Aaron Desner.
Speaker 3: How did you first find music and how how did
Speaker 3: you first find that you could articulate your feelings through music.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So my dad was a really amazing drummer, and
Speaker 1: he had this incredible teacher in Queen's in the early
Speaker 1: six year like late fifties, early sixties, and then he
Speaker 1: played a lot of like serious jazz in the sixties
Speaker 1: in New York. And then he moved to Cincinnati and
Speaker 1: my mom and him got married and he kind of
Speaker 1: had to get a real job, quote unquote real job
Speaker 1: to support us. And we found his drums in the
Speaker 1: closet when we were I think we were six years old,
Speaker 1: my brother and I in this We found it in
Speaker 1: the furnace room and kind of like pulled them out
Speaker 1: and he came home from work and we were like
Speaker 1: what are they? And I remember he was excited. He
Speaker 1: kind of was smiled, and he set them up and
Speaker 1: the basement he sat down to play, and it was like,
Speaker 1: holy shit, it was amazing. It was amazing, you know,
Speaker 1: and we had no idea.
Speaker 3: Yeah, style, like what style drummer was?
Speaker 1: He like old school? You know, he held the drumsticks
Speaker 1: with the old grip and like incredible rudiments and just
Speaker 1: really really excellent drummer. And then we just immediate, I
Speaker 1: started taking drum lessons, and gradually we started playing guitar
Speaker 1: and bass, and it was early like that I started
Speaker 1: to feel that I could. It came very naturally to us,
Speaker 1: and we became prolific technically quickly, fairly quickly, and started
Speaker 1: to just I remember just writing stuff from the very beginning,
Speaker 1: like when we were eleven, twelve, thirteen years old, and
Speaker 1: just and my brother started, you know, started saying classical guitar.
Speaker 1: We just got really into it. And it's natural the
Speaker 1: competitiveness of twin brothers who we should at a room
Speaker 1: until we were eighteen and were literally staring at each
Speaker 1: other and we just egged each other on. So early
Speaker 1: on I kind of went towards songwriting and my way
Speaker 1: of doing things, and he went towards like classical technique
Speaker 1: and composition. But we would play together. And then I
Speaker 1: when I was sixteen, night, all of a sudden, it
Speaker 1: was like a hit by a truck, not an actual truck,
Speaker 1: but an emotional truck. Of like, I just got really
Speaker 1: depressed for seemingly no reason and kind of had all
Speaker 1: the clinical signs of depression and music was the only
Speaker 1: thing that I felt like doing, so I used to
Speaker 1: sneak out of the house because we didn't have a piano.
Speaker 1: I would sneak out of the house and break into
Speaker 1: the school which was like a mile away and play
Speaker 1: the and play the piano like at night, Yeah, on
Speaker 1: the weekend at night. Yeah. It was kind of a
Speaker 1: little it was a little creepy or a little bit like,
Speaker 1: what's what am I doing? Where then I was discovered
Speaker 1: and it became this worrisome thing and I kind of
Speaker 1: had I fell behind in school because I was depressed.
Speaker 1: But I was sort of like rapidly growing as a
Speaker 1: musician at that time and teaching myself to play the piano,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of like where my way of playing
Speaker 1: the piano comes from and where I really started to
Speaker 1: harvest emotion into these into what I was playing. So
Speaker 1: that's really I think it was like sixteen seventeen where
Speaker 1: I really felt like this is an emotional outlet and
Speaker 1: it's always been that way since then.
Speaker 3: How did it affect your relationship with your brother when
Speaker 3: you started to get depressed.
Speaker 1: It was intense because it was he didn't feel that,
Speaker 1: and he also, I think felt that he had to
Speaker 1: hold me because we were close and he could see,
Speaker 1: and it got a little scary for a while, where
Speaker 1: it seemed like I was maybe suicidal or just had
Speaker 1: lost hope or just just really not functioning, and also
Speaker 1: in the pressure cooker of like I was not doing
Speaker 1: any of my work and not really showing up for school,
Speaker 1: and he kind of showed up. He was writing my
Speaker 1: papers and he was doing my homework and he was
Speaker 1: literally like holding me for the It was took sort
Speaker 1: of a year till I was out of it, but
Speaker 1: that relationship sort of persisted for a long time of
Speaker 1: me being the one who was maybe struggling in him
Speaker 1: being stronger and more together. But weirdly now eventually it
Speaker 1: sort of evened out. And apparently it's typical with twins
Speaker 1: at some point there can be this kind of imbalance
Speaker 1: or you know, something like that can happen. But he
Speaker 1: it was I think it was hard for him. It
Speaker 1: was a little scary, but he really showed up and
Speaker 1: it allowed him to care for me, which was powerful,
Speaker 1: and it allowed our music. It did feel like that's
Speaker 1: when music became something more. Because I used to think
Speaker 1: I would be like a great athlete or something or
Speaker 1: that that I was really into sports, and I thought
Speaker 1: you know, I was so focused on that, and music
Speaker 1: was just something we did since we were little kids
Speaker 1: that were happened to be good at you know, but
Speaker 1: I didn't think it. I didn't think much that I
Speaker 1: would be a musician. But it was like when I
Speaker 1: got depressed and it suddenly was this, I had this
Speaker 1: emotional need to like pour myself into it. It just
Speaker 1: kind of became who I was.
Speaker 3: You know, when did you form your first band? Was
Speaker 3: it before college?
Speaker 1: It was yet like when we were in freshman in
Speaker 1: high school, we formed a band with the drummer of
Speaker 1: the National with Brian Sos, Bryce, Brian, and I and
Speaker 1: we called ourselves Equinox. It's just a terrible name, but
Speaker 1: and like you know, with the gym, yeah, there wasn't
Speaker 1: didn't exist then, but this was like nineteen ninety. But
Speaker 1: we we would play at the parties when there was
Speaker 1: a lot of drugs and like just weed and acid
Speaker 1: and stuff at the high school parties and also at
Speaker 1: least a lot of like a lot of kids using
Speaker 1: stuff fotball players like on steroids and just like aggressive
Speaker 1: wow people. So like we kind of hid behind our
Speaker 1: instruments in a corner just playing like yeah, just jamming
Speaker 1: and it was really fun and we got really good
Speaker 1: at it, and like, there's actually some recordings from that
Speaker 1: time of us playing in somebody's barn or somebody's attic
Speaker 1: or you know, somebody's patio and we would just play
Speaker 1: songs we had written, but also like Grateful Dead, and
Speaker 1: we had so much We had so much fun, but
Speaker 1: it was also kind of a way not to interact
Speaker 1: with anyone. Totally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I totally get that. Did you guys
Speaker 3: sound like the National at all?
Speaker 1: Well? I wouldn't say we sounded like the National, although
Speaker 1: even back then there probably was this chemistry of like
Speaker 1: how my brother and I play together and harmonize with
Speaker 1: each other and sort of like the patterns or the
Speaker 1: circular details. And Brian was already a great drummer at
Speaker 1: that age and so probably in a way. But no,
Speaker 1: like I think that that sound took a while to
Speaker 1: develop into what it is, and it was sort of
Speaker 1: around Alligator where you started to I feel like you
Speaker 1: can really recognize, like, Okay, that's that's how they sound,
Speaker 1: and then it's obviously developed. But yeah, we were probably
Speaker 1: more like the Grateful Dead or attempting to be back then.
Speaker 3: You mentioned earlier you were talking about when you were
Speaker 3: putting together the songs that would eventually become the new
Speaker 3: National album, an emotional framework started to become a parent.
Speaker 3: How would you describe what that emotional framework was, what
Speaker 3: it felt like, and when was that apparent to you.
Speaker 1: So there was this like at some point I, after
Speaker 1: having time away from the band and having made all
Speaker 1: this other music, I started to hear ideas were coming
Speaker 1: where it was like, oh, this is a National song,
Speaker 1: and then shared them with Matt, And there was this
Speaker 1: initial get together in April I think of twenty twenty
Speaker 1: one where we got together and we just everyone bounced
Speaker 1: off all these initial ideas that I had and some
Speaker 1: that my brother had, and Matt wrote a lot to those,
Speaker 1: and it felt very exciting and like there was this
Speaker 1: energy like oh, they felt like, oh, we're coming back
Speaker 1: to this. But after that, Matt sort of hit a
Speaker 1: wall emotionally and with writer's buck and he just really
Speaker 1: couldn't finish anything or write anything else for almost a year.
Speaker 1: After that, he just went totally blank and kind of
Speaker 1: lost himself. And it felt like but we could all
Speaker 1: listen to those early sketches in that initial time which
Speaker 1: were sort of half finished songs, but we could hear
Speaker 1: in those ideas a vulnerability and a directness in what
Speaker 1: he was singing that felt it felt like a weird
Speaker 1: sinuation of Boxer or that era of the national and
Speaker 1: the musically, it felt like it was in a special
Speaker 1: place and in a place that we could push. So
Speaker 1: we all remained hopeful. But it wasn't until a year
Speaker 1: later when we gathered again because we needed to, that
Speaker 1: we had that there started to be a breakthrough where
Speaker 1: he wrote things like once upon a Pool Side and
Speaker 1: your Mind Is Not Your Friend and Send for Me,
Speaker 1: and these very emotional songs that clearly relate to someone
Speaker 1: who is struggling emotionally and wondering if they're going to
Speaker 1: get to the other side, and contemplating the end of
Speaker 1: relationships and sort of what was the worried thing you
Speaker 1: said to me? And I thought we could get through anything?
Speaker 1: And or I keep what I can of you this
Speaker 1: emotional frame, it's like to me, it's like an emotional
Speaker 1: framework of wanting to hold on to people that you
Speaker 1: know and love, but like somehow these structures and these
Speaker 1: relationships keep keep dissolving, or you know, nothing's helping somehow,
Speaker 1: whether it's the band, whether we're talking about ourselves. You know,
Speaker 1: time to you know, he says, time to take my
Speaker 1: silent treatment. It won't be the first. And to me,
Speaker 1: that's like this acknowledgment that of that we all you know,
Speaker 1: I've hurt people, He's hurt people. We hurt each other
Speaker 1: in the band sometimes, and it's like kind of trying
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that and move on and I love each other.
Speaker 1: This is my interpretation. I'm not even sure that's You
Speaker 1: ever ask.
Speaker 3: Him directly about a lyric that you might think he's
Speaker 3: like intending to say something about the band? Do you
Speaker 3: ever ask him? Is that about us?
Speaker 1: It's funny you say that. It's like it's like a
Speaker 1: cardinal rule, an unwritten rule that we don't ask each
Speaker 1: other about our intent. Really goes way back to the
Speaker 1: beginning of the band, where it's more it's more interesting
Speaker 1: I think for all of us if we get to
Speaker 1: apply our own meaning to things. And I think the
Speaker 1: reason the band works well is because we all can
Speaker 1: empathize with what he's talking about. But it's also he
Speaker 1: writes in such a way, which is part of his brilliance,
Speaker 1: that you can kind of read into it however you
Speaker 1: want to. And he definitely likes that, so he tends
Speaker 1: to not say too much about what things are about.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I imagine as a musician, when it comes time
Speaker 3: for people to start reviewing your new work, it can
Speaker 3: be probably hard to read how people either describe the
Speaker 3: work that you create or you know, critics hearing how
Speaker 3: they're judging what you just created. And oftentimes I see
Speaker 3: people calling the national sad Dad music. How does that
Speaker 3: sit with you?
Speaker 1: Thanks for asking. I think it's well sad dads. So
Speaker 1: is my idea to take that and put it on
Speaker 1: a sweatshirt, the National Sad Dads, And we sold like
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of them like instantly, and everyone was like,
Speaker 1: please make sad moms and sad sad teens. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's a badge of honor. You know. I
Speaker 1: kind of love that people think of us as sad
Speaker 1: dads or dad rock or all these things. I kind
Speaker 1: of think, bring it on, like I'm so proud to
Speaker 1: be a parent, and also like it's just life. I
Speaker 1: think aging is beautiful and interesting and I kind of
Speaker 1: love everyone's wrinkles. And you know, how we all look
Speaker 1: and wish people. I wish this society wasn't so anti
Speaker 1: aging and all of that. It's just really depresses me.
Speaker 1: But I would also say that the gauntlet of music
Speaker 1: criticism is really hard for everyone because it's important and
Speaker 1: I appreciate journalism, and I appreciate it's like necessary, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like an important part of I love reading. I
Speaker 1: love reading substance of journalism. I love things like this,
Speaker 1: like in depth discussion with artists you're interested in and
Speaker 1: with smart people, and I think that's wonderful. What's hard
Speaker 1: is like being graded by a subjective person in a
Speaker 1: way that might lift something up or destroy it. And
Speaker 1: it's kind of the luck of the draw who you get,
Speaker 1: because you could call something brilliant or something pedestrian or
Speaker 1: dismiss it, and it just depends on your perspective, you know,
Speaker 1: and what you like. But what it does, unfortunately, is
Speaker 1: it hurts especially younger artists who are coming up, or
Speaker 1: people who are fragile or vulnerable. And I would say
Speaker 1: a lot of artists are you know, a lot of people,
Speaker 1: whether you're making whatever art form you're making, people aren't.
Speaker 1: You might have a thick skin, but more often than not,
Speaker 1: you don't. And so like, I've seen people be destroyed
Speaker 1: by a bad Pitchfork review, not in terms of theirs
Speaker 1: six but in terms of their emotional stability. And it hurts,
Speaker 1: you know, because people spend years working on something and
Speaker 1: then either get celebrated or torn apart for it in
Speaker 1: one day, and nothing can prepare you for that, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd love to hear more about you as a dad.
Speaker 3: It sounds like your studio is close to your house,
Speaker 3: so you can leave one and then go to the other,
Speaker 3: and it's like two parallel universes. Yeah, how do you
Speaker 3: balance life as the very busy working musician and then
Speaker 3: home life.
Speaker 1: It's hard, but it's also I'm lucky that the studio
Speaker 1: is right by the house, and it kind of there's
Speaker 1: this balance that has developed that really does work, where
Speaker 1: I float in and out, but I wake up every
Speaker 1: day that I'm home and make them breakfast and take
Speaker 1: them to school no matter what, even if I'm like
Speaker 1: horribly jet lag or exhausted, and just really try to
Speaker 1: be present with them. And I've learned to slow down
Speaker 1: with them and sort of, really, my parents never played
Speaker 1: with us. I don't have no memory of them getting
Speaker 1: on the floor and playing or we're just left to
Speaker 1: our own devices, which is also great. But to me,
Speaker 1: it's really meaningful to actually take delight in your children
Speaker 1: and to really meet them where they are, you know.
Speaker 1: And I feel like I've gotten good at that and
Speaker 1: then that suits my personality in fact, just to kind
Speaker 1: of like play, you know. So it's been really amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And musically it's really inspiring just they follow it all
Speaker 1: because they hear me listening. I listen in the car
Speaker 1: when I drive. I listen to what I'm working on
Speaker 1: and reflect and that really helps them kind of just
Speaker 1: feel into where I am. And they call it. They
Speaker 1: call it daddy music. And actually my daughter, My daughter's
Speaker 1: funny because during folklore and evermore, she would hear there's
Speaker 1: a story where she once asked me, like, Daddy, do
Speaker 1: you know Taylor Swift and I sort of had sworn
Speaker 1: been sworn to secrecy because we had to be secret
Speaker 1: just to avoid any We wanted just to no one
Speaker 1: to know what we were doing. And I and I
Speaker 1: totally lied. I was like, no, she's so talented, like
Speaker 1: I wish i'd like literally the day before we'd been
Speaker 1: finishing a song or something. But but then later as
Speaker 1: she those records came out and they obviously they fell
Speaker 1: in love with folklore and nevermore. But but Ingram was
Speaker 1: already a fan of all her other music and said
Speaker 1: like sometimes she's like, can we Daddy? Can we listen
Speaker 1: to Taylor? And I'll put on like Cardigan or whatever
Speaker 1: Invisible String or something she's and she'll be like, no,
Speaker 1: not a Daddy tailor song, like a real She'd be like,
Speaker 1: I want to hear a real tailor song? You like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? What's wrong with it? And she
Speaker 1: was like, well, like the Daddy I like the Daddy ones,
Speaker 1: but could we hear like I'm so anyways, that's very fair,
Speaker 1: that's so great.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: One thing I noticed, just looking at the artists that
Speaker 3: you've worked with, it seems like outside of the national
Speaker 3: you work with a lot of female songwriters, female musicians.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 3: And I'm wondering if you've thought about why that is,
Speaker 3: or if there's something about your temperament or yourself as
Speaker 3: a musician the way you play that compliments women.
Speaker 1: I think I definitely, having been in a band with
Speaker 1: dudes for so long, I think I enjoy working with
Speaker 1: single artists like individual artists, and the simplicity of that
Speaker 1: work where there's really just myself and whoever I'm working with,
Speaker 1: and it simplifies a lot of the complex psychology of
Speaker 1: a group dynamics. I tend to not that I avoid bands,
Speaker 1: but I'm already in a band, you know. And my
Speaker 1: sister's always been a huge influence on my brother and
Speaker 1: I artistically. She's a visual artist and she was a dancer,
Speaker 1: but she's just always really really respected her way of
Speaker 1: approaching in her like she's very uncompromising and really like
Speaker 1: the sense of this says is clarity, and she was
Speaker 1: such a great listener to us also, and I just
Speaker 1: it was very natural when I first collaborated with Sharon
Speaker 1: Bennette and was the first record that I made that
Speaker 1: I was technically the producer outside of the band, and
Speaker 1: she was just at an early point in her career
Speaker 1: and we met because my sister booked her to play
Speaker 1: this basement in our neighborhood in Brooklyn. I don't think
Speaker 1: it mattered that women or man, but like maybe in
Speaker 1: a sense, I appreciated the different perspective, you know, and
Speaker 1: also just felt like there were so many dudes at
Speaker 1: that time making and now it's kind of nice because
Speaker 1: it's almost like where are the dudes or what are
Speaker 1: like where's the like what are they doing? Because it's
Speaker 1: I feel like most of my favorite artists are women
Speaker 1: and a lot of incredible writers right now. Honestly, it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know how else to grow as an artist
Speaker 1: or a musician other than to make music with other
Speaker 1: people and see how their brain works, you know, because
Speaker 1: that's how you learn. Like I just made this record
Speaker 1: with Gracie Abrams that I love and like she's half
Speaker 1: my age. She's literally half my age. She's twenty three
Speaker 1: and I'm forty six. I definitely benefited as much working
Speaker 1: from with her as she did with me. And I
Speaker 1: love that. I love that, I love that feeling.
Speaker 3: You mentioned that there's a bunch of leftover tracks from
Speaker 3: the sessions that became the New National album. Why not
Speaker 3: just put those out as the next album? Like, would
Speaker 3: you consider doing that or do you go back to
Speaker 3: the drawing board and do you start fresh?
Speaker 1: I would say that might happen because it is it's
Speaker 1: like very strong and like there is another album that
Speaker 1: is basically done, you know, and it's really some of
Speaker 1: my favorite songs are in that batch, and I think
Speaker 1: we might do that, but knowing us, what probably happened
Speaker 1: is some of that will will surface on the next album,
Speaker 1: but we'll probably make a lot of other ideas. And
Speaker 1: I do think we have this feeling that this is
Speaker 1: our like kid amnesiac moment of like there are sister
Speaker 1: albums that are really and we're going to finish another
Speaker 1: one much faster than he would think, you know. So
Speaker 1: that's even like right now, I might go downstairs and
Speaker 1: I can hear them playing, and when I have a feeling,
Speaker 1: they're going to be like we got something, what do
Speaker 1: you think? And I'll be like, wow, I don't like it,
Speaker 1: but let's try this or whatever. I'll say.
Speaker 3: But are they all down there right now?
Speaker 1: They are? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Cool. So you guys are rehearsing right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for tour, we're like learning these songs. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: it's always like you feel like you just have never
Speaker 1: played music before. You're like, oh, like you know, your
Speaker 1: mind is not your friend. I was trying to relearn
Speaker 1: the piano part, which is obviously me playing it, but
Speaker 1: it's like I completely forgot how it goes after I
Speaker 1: did it, so it's like I have to like write
Speaker 1: so anyways.
Speaker 3: Well, best wishes with the new album, and thank you
Speaker 3: so much for talking today.
Speaker 1: Thank you really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thanks to Aaron Jasner for giving us a look into
Speaker 2: the National's inner workings and his approach to produce it.
Speaker 2: You can hear all of our favorite Nationals song along
Speaker 2: with other stuff Aaron's worked on on a playlist at
Speaker 2: broken record podcast dot com. You can subscribe to our
Speaker 2: YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast,
Speaker 2: where you can find all of our new episodes. You
Speaker 2: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record
Speaker 2: is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Ben Tolliday,
Speaker 2: and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record
Speaker 2: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this
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Speaker 2: review us on your podcast app. A Team Music's by
Speaker 2: Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Mischman,