WEBVTT - Aaron Dessner 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.316 --> 0:00:23.156 Today, we're kicking off a two part series of interviews 0:00:23.156 --> 0:00:26.996 with members of the National, who just released their ninth 0:00:27.036 --> 0:00:32.756 album called First Two Pages of Frankenstein. Today's conversation is 0:00:32.796 --> 0:00:37.756 with Aaron Desner, the Nationals guitarist and oftentimes lead composer. 0:00:38.556 --> 0:00:42.116 Outside of the National, Aerin is also a prolific producer, 0:00:42.556 --> 0:00:45.476 having worked with a slew of artists, including most famously 0:00:45.676 --> 0:00:50.476 Taylor Swift. During the pandemic, Dessner and Swift teamed up 0:00:50.476 --> 0:00:53.796 to write music that would eventually become Taylor's critically acclaimed 0:00:53.876 --> 0:00:58.476 indie leaning albums, Folklore and Evermore. Desner also has a 0:00:58.516 --> 0:01:02.236 side project with Bonniever's Justin Vernon called Big Red Machine 0:01:02.556 --> 0:01:05.996 that features collaborations with artists including a Naias Mitchell and 0:01:06.156 --> 0:01:10.916 Sharon van Etten. On today's episode, Broken Record producer Leo 0:01:11.076 --> 0:01:14.196 Rose talks to Aaron Desner about how an invitation to 0:01:14.236 --> 0:01:17.116 open an arena tour for bonnie Ver led to him 0:01:17.116 --> 0:01:20.276 writing the music that he would eventually share with Taylor Swift. 0:01:21.396 --> 0:01:24.036 Aeron also talks about how the National almost came to 0:01:24.076 --> 0:01:27.276 a breaking point after a grueling tour schedule, and he 0:01:27.356 --> 0:01:30.196 opens up about his battle with depression as a teenager 0:01:30.516 --> 0:01:36.516 and how his twin brother Bryce carried him through. This 0:01:36.716 --> 0:01:39.956 is broken record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm 0:01:40.076 --> 0:01:44.276 justin Mitchman. Here's Lea Rose with Aaron Desner. 0:01:45.636 --> 0:01:49.156 I want to ask you about all your solo work, 0:01:49.396 --> 0:01:52.556 and you have been so prolific as a producer, as 0:01:52.556 --> 0:01:56.436 a songwriter, as a composer. But let's start by talking 0:01:56.476 --> 0:02:00.116 about the new National album. So tell me the story 0:02:00.396 --> 0:02:02.436 of the first two pages of Frankenstein. 0:02:03.076 --> 0:02:06.316 Well, yeah, so the first two pages of Frankenstein is 0:02:06.356 --> 0:02:11.556 the National's ninth record. A nice feeling to have made 0:02:11.556 --> 0:02:15.516 a record that I think is the best thing we've made, 0:02:15.556 --> 0:02:17.916 even though I know artists always say that, but in 0:02:17.956 --> 0:02:21.956 this case, I really do feel that it's somehow is 0:02:21.996 --> 0:02:26.516 a distillation of everything we've done, or somehow it reminds 0:02:26.516 --> 0:02:28.436 me of some of our earliest work and also some 0:02:28.516 --> 0:02:34.356 of the most developed and somehow mature and evolved, you know, 0:02:34.396 --> 0:02:38.036 at the same time. So, but the story of it, 0:02:38.076 --> 0:02:40.876 I guess by the time we released Easy to Find, 0:02:40.876 --> 0:02:43.356 which is the last record, which is a collaboration with 0:02:43.396 --> 0:02:47.476 Mike Mills, this filmmaker and featured a number of female 0:02:47.556 --> 0:02:50.196 vocalists that were duetting sort of with Matt and telling 0:02:50.236 --> 0:02:53.476 the story of a woman's life from birth to death. 0:02:53.636 --> 0:02:56.796 It was the most conceptual record we'd ever made. We 0:02:56.796 --> 0:02:59.876 were sort of dissolving the identity of The National somehow, 0:03:00.276 --> 0:03:03.396 or playing around with it more than we had before, 0:03:03.876 --> 0:03:06.796 opening it up, having other people sing the songs, and 0:03:06.876 --> 0:03:10.356 just kind of like it was after Sleep Well Beast, 0:03:10.636 --> 0:03:12.356 which we had been a big record and we'd won 0:03:12.436 --> 0:03:16.596 a Grammy for the Alternative Music Grammy, and it had 0:03:16.636 --> 0:03:18.916 gone so well, and we'd toured so much, and then 0:03:18.996 --> 0:03:21.396 Easy to Find happen and we were still on tour, 0:03:21.436 --> 0:03:23.516 and this is like it felt like the end of 0:03:23.596 --> 0:03:26.196 twenty years of touring, and we were all sort of 0:03:27.396 --> 0:03:29.556 coming apart in a way, like as a band and 0:03:29.996 --> 0:03:35.316 individually there were some we were running on fumes and 0:03:35.396 --> 0:03:38.516 everything just sort of fell apart. Like we kind of 0:03:39.396 --> 0:03:42.676 felt like it was unclear to me when The National 0:03:42.676 --> 0:03:45.996 would write again or see each other again. Everyone was 0:03:46.236 --> 0:03:48.396 in different places. My brother was in France and I 0:03:48.476 --> 0:03:51.036 was stuck here and Matt was out in la and 0:03:51.116 --> 0:03:53.356 like everyone in the world, we just kind of stayed put. 0:03:53.996 --> 0:03:56.196 So I guess this record was really it took a 0:03:56.236 --> 0:03:59.996 long It took a couple of years for us to 0:04:00.196 --> 0:04:01.196 find our feet. 0:04:02.276 --> 0:04:05.276 I was curious when you say that that last tour 0:04:05.476 --> 0:04:08.716 that you took for the album, the wheels were falling 0:04:08.756 --> 0:04:13.796 off and everything was sort of falling apart, with communication 0:04:13.956 --> 0:04:17.316 breaking down at that point. How traditionally has the band 0:04:17.596 --> 0:04:19.836 dealt with conflict in times like that. 0:04:20.476 --> 0:04:22.756 A lot has been said about the National in terms 0:04:22.756 --> 0:04:25.676 of it being this band of brothers, because there's two 0:04:25.756 --> 0:04:28.036 sets of brothers and my brother and I and then 0:04:28.276 --> 0:04:31.396 Scott and Brian Devon Dorf and then Matt who's the 0:04:31.396 --> 0:04:33.436 only one who's not a brother, but he's like he's 0:04:33.476 --> 0:04:36.796 sort of central figure as a singer and lyricist. And 0:04:37.756 --> 0:04:41.476 historically Matt and I have butted heads because I tend 0:04:41.516 --> 0:04:45.036 to generate most of the music, and we love each 0:04:45.076 --> 0:04:47.396 other and we obviously are such good collaborators, but like, 0:04:47.716 --> 0:04:50.276 if there's a disagreement, it was often between him and 0:04:50.316 --> 0:04:53.116 I over like the push and pull of trying to 0:04:53.116 --> 0:04:56.956 make something as good as we can. But actually it 0:04:57.036 --> 0:04:59.516 was never that bad, really, I think we just also 0:05:00.036 --> 0:05:03.556 it's like part of the identity of the band was 0:05:03.596 --> 0:05:09.116 like this dysfunctional family or something. But over many, many 0:05:09.236 --> 0:05:11.276 years of touring. I mean, because we sort of built 0:05:11.276 --> 0:05:15.996 this band brick by brick from it started in nineteen 0:05:16.036 --> 0:05:18.516 ninety nine. In two thousand and one, we started touring, 0:05:18.556 --> 0:05:21.196 and we didn't really ever stop for more than a 0:05:21.236 --> 0:05:25.836 month or two all those years, you know, and starting 0:05:25.876 --> 0:05:28.516 with like in two thousand and five, Alligator came out, 0:05:28.556 --> 0:05:31.076 and then it was Boxer, and then it was High Violet, 0:05:31.196 --> 0:05:35.316 Trouble Will Find Me, Sleepobies Easy to Find, and all 0:05:35.396 --> 0:05:38.116 of those records. I don't really think we made a 0:05:38.116 --> 0:05:40.156 bad record, you know. I think we just kept making 0:05:41.516 --> 0:05:44.636 better records or you know, they're all they're kind of siblings, 0:05:44.716 --> 0:05:47.756 these records, And it did take a lot out of 0:05:47.796 --> 0:05:50.556 us because at the same time we were touring, and 0:05:51.356 --> 0:05:53.236 I just think at some point during Easy fin we 0:05:53.276 --> 0:05:55.556 woke up and everyone was like moving in the opposite 0:05:55.596 --> 0:06:00.076 direction from each other, but not out of any real spite. 0:06:00.156 --> 0:06:04.716 It was a combination of maybe needing space from the 0:06:04.756 --> 0:06:08.996 band and each other, but also we just don't want 0:06:08.996 --> 0:06:11.516 to make anything that doesn't feel really inspired. So I 0:06:11.516 --> 0:06:14.156 think at some point it was just started to feel 0:06:14.156 --> 0:06:15.516 when I see the wheels were coming off, it was 0:06:15.556 --> 0:06:18.516 just that feeling of your running on fumes and maybe 0:06:18.516 --> 0:06:22.316 the well has gone dry a little bit. And the 0:06:22.436 --> 0:06:26.076 day that Easy to Find came out, justin Vernon, Bonnie 0:06:26.076 --> 0:06:29.636 Bear justin Vernon had called me. We'd you know, been 0:06:29.676 --> 0:06:31.396 friends for a really long time and had gone so 0:06:31.516 --> 0:06:35.596 close and obviously collaborated on many things, including Big Red Machine, 0:06:35.636 --> 0:06:37.436 and we've been making all this Big Red Machine music 0:06:37.476 --> 0:06:42.596 that was exciting. But he was scheduling this big European tour. 0:06:43.876 --> 0:06:45.756 It was this arena chair that was supposed to be 0:06:45.836 --> 0:06:50.156 in the fall of twenty twenty, I think, and he 0:06:50.196 --> 0:06:52.316 called me the day Easy to Find came out, He said, 0:06:52.636 --> 0:06:56.916 would you open my tour by yourself? He said, would 0:06:56.916 --> 0:06:58.156 you open my tour? And I was like, well, what 0:06:58.196 --> 0:06:59.796 do you mean? And he's like, well, I want you 0:06:59.836 --> 0:07:02.476 to open it just by yourself. And I was like, well, 0:07:02.516 --> 0:07:05.916 I've never actually played any I've never played any music 0:07:05.956 --> 0:07:08.436 by myself in front of people, not even like an 0:07:08.436 --> 0:07:11.076 open mic, you know that. He sort of said, but 0:07:11.236 --> 0:07:15.796 I know I've seen I've seen what you do, and 0:07:15.836 --> 0:07:17.316 I know what you do, and I think it'd be 0:07:17.356 --> 0:07:18.156 really interesting. 0:07:18.676 --> 0:07:21.156 What a beautiful compliment. I mean, that's just like so 0:07:21.236 --> 0:07:24.756 incredible that he would believe in you at that level, like, yeah, 0:07:25.036 --> 0:07:27.196 that did that feel really motivating for you? 0:07:27.956 --> 0:07:30.476 It was a challenge. I mean, he's a really lovely 0:07:30.636 --> 0:07:35.436 person and intuitive kind of friend, and he I think 0:07:35.516 --> 0:07:39.276 he was interested in what it would do creatively for 0:07:39.396 --> 0:07:43.676 me and so and it wasn't in opposition to anything, 0:07:43.836 --> 0:07:46.116 not definitely, not in opposition to the national It was 0:07:46.196 --> 0:07:49.076 just like do it, just do it. And I was like, Okay, 0:07:49.116 --> 0:07:51.876 I'll do it. And so from that point I started 0:07:51.876 --> 0:07:55.276 to write a lot of music just thinking about how 0:07:55.316 --> 0:07:56.876 would I do that? How would I stand in the 0:07:56.916 --> 0:08:02.996 Wembley Arena by myself and play for fifteen thousand people, 0:08:03.036 --> 0:08:05.036 or you know, how would I do that? And it 0:08:05.076 --> 0:08:07.236 was a good challenge and so I started that really 0:08:07.276 --> 0:08:10.076 like started this during the Easy to Find Her. I 0:08:10.116 --> 0:08:13.156 was making all this stuff. So that year when we 0:08:13.156 --> 0:08:16.876 were touring for that record, in the backstages and everywhere, 0:08:16.916 --> 0:08:20.036 I was writing all this music that I took to 0:08:20.116 --> 0:08:22.636 the point of being ready kind of for me to 0:08:23.276 --> 0:08:25.596 cause I knew that it was coming. And then the 0:08:25.596 --> 0:08:29.356 pandemic hit and I was like, oh, okay, well glad 0:08:29.396 --> 0:08:30.956 I did all that, but now what's it for? 0:08:31.796 --> 0:08:33.116 Oh? Were you disappointed? 0:08:33.316 --> 0:08:36.316 I wasn't disappointed. Actually I was relieved maybe that I 0:08:36.356 --> 0:08:39.716 didn't have to do it because it was actually terrifying. 0:08:39.756 --> 0:08:43.036 But I think that it kind of like started an 0:08:43.316 --> 0:08:47.796 interesting growth for me. And I say this with regard 0:08:47.836 --> 0:08:50.796 to where the National was. I feel like there are 0:08:50.956 --> 0:08:54.396 clues in that also to eventually how I came back 0:08:54.436 --> 0:08:57.116 to work on new national music, because it was clear 0:08:57.116 --> 0:08:59.196 to me as I was making this music, you know, 0:08:59.276 --> 0:09:02.516 to open the bony virtue, that it wasn't national music, 0:09:02.556 --> 0:09:05.196 it was something else. And actually a lot of that 0:09:05.476 --> 0:09:08.236 stuff ended up being what I shared with Taylor Swift 0:09:08.236 --> 0:09:11.876 when she approached me during the pandemic or like in 0:09:11.916 --> 0:09:17.076 April twenty twenty. But basically I was feeling very prolific 0:09:17.116 --> 0:09:19.756 and very creative. But it was for the first time 0:09:19.876 --> 0:09:22.036 I knew that it was for something else instead of 0:09:22.076 --> 0:09:26.556 always I was always directed into the National for all 0:09:26.636 --> 0:09:31.516 those years, and then suddenly I found myself widely collaborating 0:09:31.556 --> 0:09:34.156 outside of it, which was exciting. And I think that 0:09:34.836 --> 0:09:37.796 the story of this record is kind of the story 0:09:37.836 --> 0:09:41.716 of us all having a lot of experiences and growing, 0:09:41.756 --> 0:09:45.076 I think, and also sort of hibernating and taking care 0:09:45.116 --> 0:09:48.876 of ourselves and their loved ones during this weird time 0:09:49.956 --> 0:09:52.596 and then eventually coming back into it and really leaning 0:09:52.636 --> 0:09:55.516 into each other in our strengths and kind of saying, 0:09:56.516 --> 0:09:59.076 I don't know, this was actually, weirdly the most harmonious 0:09:59.116 --> 0:10:01.116 process that we've ever had. And I think it was 0:10:01.156 --> 0:10:04.156 because we had space, you know, from right, And. 0:10:04.156 --> 0:10:07.036 It sounds like everyone was able to focus on different 0:10:07.076 --> 0:10:10.676 projects if they wanted, or just get time to sort 0:10:10.676 --> 0:10:13.316 of like you know, replenish themselves. 0:10:14.076 --> 0:10:18.276 Yeah, for sure. Like at some point, you know, I 0:10:18.396 --> 0:10:23.796 ended up in this wildly prolific time with Taylor collaborating remotely, 0:10:23.796 --> 0:10:25.956 and we made folklore, and then we made evermore all 0:10:25.996 --> 0:10:30.156 in the same year and at the same time. Then 0:10:30.236 --> 0:10:33.156 I finished the Big the second Bigger Machine record, and 0:10:33.956 --> 0:10:37.316 made a ton of music with all sorts of people. 0:10:37.556 --> 0:10:40.796 But at some point I started to have the realization 0:10:40.916 --> 0:10:42.876 that I would be making music and I'd be like, wait, 0:10:42.916 --> 0:10:44.116 this is a national song. 0:10:44.636 --> 0:10:46.516 So how do you know when it's a national song. 0:10:46.876 --> 0:10:49.956 It's because you can feel the engine of the band 0:10:50.076 --> 0:10:52.916 in your hands or in your heart. You start to 0:10:53.076 --> 0:10:55.316 I'll make something because I if I pick up an 0:10:55.316 --> 0:10:58.476 instrument or sit down an instrument, it's very natural for 0:10:58.556 --> 0:11:01.556 me that I it almost immediately I start generating. It's 0:11:01.596 --> 0:11:02.836 just the way I think it comes from when I 0:11:02.876 --> 0:11:05.636 was a kid, Like how I relate to music. It's 0:11:05.676 --> 0:11:10.556 not like it's almost physical and visceral. It's an emotional 0:11:10.596 --> 0:11:14.356 process where I'm I'm like tapping into a current within myself. 0:11:14.356 --> 0:11:16.236 But the way it comes out on instruments it kind 0:11:16.276 --> 0:11:21.396 of feels locomotive or meditative or sort of. Oftentimes it's 0:11:21.436 --> 0:11:26.356 this sort of circular patterns and behaviors. There's certain ways 0:11:26.396 --> 0:11:28.836 of playing or feeling where I can feel how the 0:11:28.876 --> 0:11:31.356 others might bounce off of it, or like, oh, like 0:11:31.516 --> 0:11:35.156 I could hear my brother or harmonizing what I'm playing, 0:11:35.236 --> 0:11:38.356 or I could hear Brian like his No one can 0:11:38.436 --> 0:11:41.716 drum like him, and when he really locks into something, 0:11:41.756 --> 0:11:45.756 it becomes so much more. Or the way Matt and 0:11:45.956 --> 0:11:50.276 even like sometimes you start to hear your bandmates because 0:11:50.316 --> 0:11:53.516 it is it's like this family feeling. So that started 0:11:53.516 --> 0:11:56.076 to come back at some point in a very strong way. 0:11:56.116 --> 0:11:59.316 So I started to have a folder of ideas that 0:11:59.436 --> 0:12:02.516 I felt were really strong, and then my brother did too, 0:12:02.556 --> 0:12:04.396 and it just started the well started to fill and 0:12:04.436 --> 0:12:07.676 eventually it was overflowing. But this is a this is 0:12:07.716 --> 0:12:09.636 a good like well over a year, year, a year 0:12:09.636 --> 0:12:12.316 and a half after we'd said goodbye, not knowing it 0:12:12.356 --> 0:12:13.996 was goodbye. I think it was the last show as 0:12:14.036 --> 0:12:19.836 in Lisbon, Portugal in December twenty nineteen, and it was 0:12:20.076 --> 0:12:23.316 like in this beautiful in the Kempo Pekenyo I think 0:12:23.356 --> 0:12:26.276 it was Kempo Peginio or in the Colisseum, fifteen thousand 0:12:26.276 --> 0:12:29.636 people wow, and they were all it was just this 0:12:29.716 --> 0:12:32.516 amazing show. And I remember thinking, if this is the 0:12:32.596 --> 0:12:35.996 last National show, this would be a good way to 0:12:36.276 --> 0:12:38.716 end it. And then it seemed like it was the 0:12:38.876 --> 0:12:41.356 end of it, you know, both because of the pandemic, 0:12:41.356 --> 0:12:43.956 but also because of just where we all were for 0:12:43.996 --> 0:12:46.116 a while. Yeah, So it was just it was a 0:12:46.196 --> 0:12:49.196 nice feeling when the well suddenly was full. And I 0:12:49.196 --> 0:12:54.516 remember just sharing music with Matt finally and being like, 0:12:54.636 --> 0:12:56.556 I don't know, there might be things in here, you know. 0:12:57.596 --> 0:12:59.716 So when you're writing music for the National, when you 0:12:59.756 --> 0:13:02.596 sit down and if you're writing on guitar or you're 0:13:02.596 --> 0:13:05.236 writing on piano or whatever it is, whatever the instrument is, 0:13:05.836 --> 0:13:08.756 do you hear phantom parts from other members in the band. 0:13:09.516 --> 0:13:12.956 Yeah, for sure, I think after so many years of 0:13:13.116 --> 0:13:16.276 working together. We're very aware of each other. I mean 0:13:16.236 --> 0:13:18.716 because Bryce and Brian and I have played together since 0:13:18.756 --> 0:13:20.916 we were in middle school, and Bryce and I since 0:13:20.956 --> 0:13:24.796 we're tiny, but I naturally know when there's a pocket 0:13:24.876 --> 0:13:28.916 that Brian can exploit, you know, or can kind of 0:13:28.956 --> 0:13:31.356 like we joke it's like, well is the horse is 0:13:31.356 --> 0:13:33.596 the horse? You're gonna run sort of like you pull 0:13:33.676 --> 0:13:36.156 him out of the barn. And because it is like that, 0:13:36.196 --> 0:13:38.436 like when he hooks into something, it's kind of a 0:13:39.316 --> 0:13:43.156 it's just a feeling. But yeah, I hear, particularly I 0:13:43.236 --> 0:13:45.996 hear my brother, you know, both what he can do 0:13:46.036 --> 0:13:48.796 with the guitar to what I'm doing with the guitar 0:13:48.916 --> 0:13:51.276 or piano or anything whatever I'm playing, but also like 0:13:51.396 --> 0:13:55.836 his orchestration and how he might add complexity to something 0:13:55.956 --> 0:14:00.596 or develop it. And that's it does seem. Really part 0:14:00.676 --> 0:14:02.596 of the gift of the band is that we don't 0:14:02.676 --> 0:14:07.036 seem to get stuck or stale. Somehow, it feels like 0:14:07.076 --> 0:14:10.556 it's it still feels ever when we actually try to 0:14:10.596 --> 0:14:12.956 make something. It kind of because we also throw away 0:14:12.996 --> 0:14:16.196 a lot and we get sick of we probably made. 0:14:16.236 --> 0:14:18.476 We made a lot more music for this record than 0:14:18.476 --> 0:14:20.996 we ultimately put on it, and a lot of it's 0:14:21.036 --> 0:14:22.956 really strong, but I think there's a it's hard for 0:14:22.996 --> 0:14:24.476 five people to feel confident. 0:14:24.996 --> 0:14:26.916 Yeah, how does that process work when you have a 0:14:26.956 --> 0:14:30.076 song you're working on and let's say like three people 0:14:30.076 --> 0:14:32.116 in the band think it's great, good to go, like 0:14:32.236 --> 0:14:35.956 should be on the album, somebody's a holdout, How does 0:14:36.036 --> 0:14:36.996 that process work? 0:14:37.716 --> 0:14:41.636 Well, there is, I would say Matt and I tend 0:14:41.676 --> 0:14:44.596 to be the most opinionated or some or the most 0:14:44.636 --> 0:14:48.396 focused in the weeds, you know, and we tend to 0:14:48.436 --> 0:14:53.076 try to agree or to argue between ourselves and then agree. 0:14:53.116 --> 0:14:57.156 So for this record, eventually Matt called me after we'd 0:14:57.156 --> 0:15:01.076 made probably twenty five songs and finished them and mix them, 0:15:01.276 --> 0:15:03.836 and he said, and it was kind of because in 0:15:03.876 --> 0:15:07.076 the past there were these elaborate chess matches of sort 0:15:07.116 --> 0:15:11.316 of even that like kind of a mind games we 0:15:11.316 --> 0:15:13.036 would have to play with each other where it's like, 0:15:13.756 --> 0:15:17.436 you know, it's like he used stalking horses, where you're like, 0:15:17.676 --> 0:15:19.756 you pretend to really care about a song that you 0:15:19.796 --> 0:15:21.476 don't care about so you can give it up so 0:15:21.516 --> 0:15:24.036 he doesn't go after the one that you actually care about. 0:15:24.756 --> 0:15:26.756 And we would do that even with like parts of 0:15:26.836 --> 0:15:30.476 songs like it's really funny like there and that song 0:15:30.516 --> 0:15:34.156 the System Only Dreams in Total Darkness. That's on Sleep 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:36.396 Well Beast. There's this big I play this big guitar 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:38.596 solo that I knew he loved, you know, but then 0:15:38.636 --> 0:15:41.836 he was he didn't like this layer of percussion I 0:15:41.956 --> 0:15:44.276 really loved. So I was like, fine, we can turn 0:15:44.316 --> 0:15:46.796 off the percussion, but I'm also going to turn off 0:15:46.836 --> 0:15:49.396 the guitar solo because I can't live with the guitar 0:15:49.476 --> 0:15:51.596 so if it doesn't have the support of the percussion. 0:15:51.636 --> 0:15:53.556 He's like, no, no, you can't turn off the guitar. 0:15:53.716 --> 0:15:57.116 So so we like that was like, yeah, that was 0:15:57.156 --> 0:16:01.436 back when we were more childish, But this time he Matt. 0:16:02.036 --> 0:16:05.196 Matt had gone through a hard time with like writers, blocking, 0:16:05.276 --> 0:16:08.676 just some the pandemic was a hard period for him, 0:16:08.676 --> 0:16:12.636 and he came out of it and really gradually just 0:16:13.276 --> 0:16:16.436 he started to write and write and write, and towards 0:16:16.476 --> 0:16:18.396 the end, they just kept being more and more songs 0:16:18.436 --> 0:16:20.756 that we were finishing. So what we thought was the 0:16:20.796 --> 0:16:24.796 record kept evolving, and eventually what it became was quite 0:16:24.796 --> 0:16:27.796 different from the first you know, several months we were 0:16:27.796 --> 0:16:31.676 working on it, like by last spring, it had kind 0:16:31.716 --> 0:16:34.996 of morphed into something else. And he called me when 0:16:35.036 --> 0:16:36.996 we were done mixing, and he said, you know, we 0:16:37.036 --> 0:16:41.236 had mixed almost two records worth of material, and he said, look, 0:16:41.276 --> 0:16:45.596 I think it's these eleven songs. And for the first 0:16:45.676 --> 0:16:50.476 time ever, I just was so relieved and happy and 0:16:50.636 --> 0:16:55.796 confident to hear his vision, you know, and to feel 0:16:56.796 --> 0:17:00.796 how to feel how inspired he was and the clarity 0:17:01.756 --> 0:17:04.916 in his mind. And I just embraced it. And then 0:17:04.916 --> 0:17:06.596 I called my brother because he would be the next 0:17:06.636 --> 0:17:07.516 most difficult. 0:17:08.356 --> 0:17:10.076 It's like all these people you have to convince. 0:17:10.556 --> 0:17:12.996 Yeah, And I think Bryce would have preferred that he 0:17:13.076 --> 0:17:16.396 and I had had a conversation before that conversation with Matt, 0:17:16.956 --> 0:17:20.996 because there's some interest, there's some really interesting, amazing songs 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:24.196 that aren't on it, or that are more complex musically 0:17:24.276 --> 0:17:26.756 or whatever it is. But and so I had to 0:17:27.356 --> 0:17:29.276 have that conversation with Bryce. But it took, you know, 0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:33.676 maybe took a second for Bryce to see that Matt 0:17:33.716 --> 0:17:36.636 was right. But he I think Matt he had somehow 0:17:36.716 --> 0:17:40.796 distilled what the story and emotional framework and current of 0:17:40.836 --> 0:17:43.476 the record was and he felt and he sort of 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:45.356 had it. And so that was really a nice feeling. 0:17:45.356 --> 0:17:49.196 And I also think it relates to where I was 0:17:49.956 --> 0:17:54.556 personally having made all this other music and having generated 0:17:54.596 --> 0:17:57.836 so much, I became less attached to any one idea 0:17:58.196 --> 0:18:03.676 and also maybe more trusting of someone else's vision and 0:18:03.876 --> 0:18:06.916 kind of I don't know, just some space from the 0:18:07.036 --> 0:18:10.316 national helped me kind of relax about it. 0:18:10.396 --> 0:18:13.756 Also, did you feel more confident in yourself as a 0:18:14.076 --> 0:18:17.956 as a producer or as a musician at that point, Yeah. 0:18:17.796 --> 0:18:20.716 It was like during the pandemic. I just for the 0:18:20.756 --> 0:18:24.556 first time and almost two decades, I got to be 0:18:24.716 --> 0:18:29.516 home and just walk the fifty yards or whatever it 0:18:29.556 --> 0:18:32.916 is between my house and the studio every day and 0:18:32.996 --> 0:18:36.276 work really intensely with people, you know, like that work 0:18:36.316 --> 0:18:38.876 that I did with Taylor. I was learning so much 0:18:39.356 --> 0:18:43.636 just every day from her and from the process, and 0:18:43.716 --> 0:18:47.596 growing more confident, I guess, having more seeing how she 0:18:47.676 --> 0:18:50.156 could bounce off the music I was making, and how 0:18:50.156 --> 0:18:53.236 we could write and finish songs that I was so 0:18:53.916 --> 0:18:59.476 compelled by, and then that process, you know, going into 0:18:59.556 --> 0:19:02.676 working with other people. I did. I grew a lot 0:19:02.956 --> 0:19:05.276 as a producer and as a songwriter, and I think 0:19:05.316 --> 0:19:10.476 I did also come to really value and appreciate what 0:19:10.516 --> 0:19:15.556 the National is capable of in my collaboration with all 0:19:15.596 --> 0:19:18.916 of them and with Matt, just how meaningful it is 0:19:18.996 --> 0:19:22.476 and and trusting that you know that all these songs 0:19:22.476 --> 0:19:26.356 are amazing. You know, they're compelling, and they're in there. 0:19:27.236 --> 0:19:29.996 There's for anything to get to the point of being done. 0:19:30.036 --> 0:19:34.436 It already has so much there. So like, if there's 0:19:34.476 --> 0:19:37.516 twenty five songs and we choose eleven for a record, 0:19:37.556 --> 0:19:42.076 it doesn't mean that the other fourteen won't eventually, you know, 0:19:42.196 --> 0:19:44.676 also see the light of day. We used to hold 0:19:44.756 --> 0:19:48.996 everything so tightly because we were terrified, terrified of like 0:19:49.596 --> 0:19:51.756 none of us are natural entertainers and none of us 0:19:51.836 --> 0:19:54.876 are that. We kind of came up through the indie 0:19:54.956 --> 0:20:00.236 rock gauntlet of Pitchfork and you know, live or die 0:20:00.476 --> 0:20:04.596 by each record. If like, we all wanted to do 0:20:04.636 --> 0:20:06.516 this and we loved it so much, but we could 0:20:06.516 --> 0:20:11.156 also we knew how tenu it was and how I 0:20:11.156 --> 0:20:12.836 don't know. We were never the type of band to 0:20:12.876 --> 0:20:14.876 fall in love with our shadow or think we were 0:20:14.876 --> 0:20:16.796 that great. We were kind of the opposite. We thought 0:20:16.796 --> 0:20:18.836 we were like the bad News Bears all the time 0:20:19.356 --> 0:20:22.236 and still do. It's like we're still kind of like 0:20:22.396 --> 0:20:26.276 we don't celebrate any achievement for very long, and we 0:20:26.356 --> 0:20:29.356 kind of dwell on the on anything that's vaguely pathetic, 0:20:29.516 --> 0:20:32.236 you know, we're kind of like, that's the thing we noticed. 0:20:32.236 --> 0:20:34.636 It's like instead of being like, wow, you know, traffic 0:20:34.636 --> 0:20:37.116 Morning News is number five on the Triple h RT, 0:20:37.156 --> 0:20:39.956 we're like, wow, we're stuck at number five below the 0:20:40.076 --> 0:20:43.556 Dave Matthew's been like, oh well, but that's just kind 0:20:43.556 --> 0:20:46.996 of that. It's like the nature of self effacing Ohio 0:20:47.316 --> 0:20:50.676 or something where we come from is kind of like 0:20:50.836 --> 0:20:52.836 just don't don't think you're all that. 0:20:53.196 --> 0:20:55.276 That could be helpful, though totally. 0:20:55.316 --> 0:20:57.476 I wish sometimes I could enjoy it all a little more. 0:20:57.556 --> 0:20:59.276 My brother and I talk about this, is like why 0:21:00.436 --> 0:21:02.636 like even when we want a Grammy or something and 0:21:02.756 --> 0:21:05.276 I've won Grammys, and like even I kind of like, 0:21:05.316 --> 0:21:08.636 instead of thinking that's fun yor great, I'm the type 0:21:08.676 --> 0:21:11.716 to be like, well, my favorite artists have never won 0:21:11.836 --> 0:21:13.596 Grammys or you know, that kind of thing, like so 0:21:13.756 --> 0:21:15.796 like what does it really mean? Anyways, Yeah, that kind 0:21:15.796 --> 0:21:18.036 of thing. But anyways, I'm trying to get better at 0:21:18.116 --> 0:21:20.356 just enjoying the enjoying the moment. 0:21:21.956 --> 0:21:23.676 We have to take a quick break, and then we'll 0:21:23.676 --> 0:21:26.756 come back with more from Leo Rose and Aaron Desner. 0:21:31.196 --> 0:21:34.076 We're back with Aaron Dosner and Leo Rose. 0:21:35.036 --> 0:21:37.436 I saw pictures of you at the Grammys this year, 0:21:37.596 --> 0:21:40.596 like sitting sort of like at Taylor's table or near her, 0:21:40.676 --> 0:21:42.596 and I was just wondering, like, what was that like 0:21:42.636 --> 0:21:46.436 for you being in that scene? Is it fun? Like? 0:21:46.556 --> 0:21:47.516 Is it a fun night? 0:21:48.036 --> 0:21:51.076 I mean, Taylor is amazing. She's a good like we've 0:21:51.116 --> 0:21:55.196 become really close friends, and she couldn't be more lovely 0:21:55.276 --> 0:21:59.596 and fun and just she's legitimately just a really lovely, 0:22:01.156 --> 0:22:04.396 hyper intelligent, down to earth person. So I love hanging 0:22:04.396 --> 0:22:06.596 out with her. And even in that, like I think 0:22:06.676 --> 0:22:10.556 those situations it's so unnatural for me to be have 0:22:10.636 --> 0:22:14.036