1
00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,956
Speaker 1: Pushkin.

2
00:00:20,316 --> 00:00:23,156
Speaker 2: Today, we're kicking off a two part series of interviews

3
00:00:23,156 --> 00:00:26,996
Speaker 2: with members of the National, who just released their ninth

4
00:00:27,036 --> 00:00:32,756
Speaker 2: album called First Two Pages of Frankenstein. Today's conversation is

5
00:00:32,796 --> 00:00:37,756
Speaker 2: with Aaron Desner, the Nationals guitarist and oftentimes lead composer.

6
00:00:38,556 --> 00:00:42,116
Speaker 2: Outside of the National, Aerin is also a prolific producer,

7
00:00:42,556 --> 00:00:45,476
Speaker 2: having worked with a slew of artists, including most famously

8
00:00:45,676 --> 00:00:50,476
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift. During the pandemic, Dessner and Swift teamed up

9
00:00:50,476 --> 00:00:53,796
Speaker 2: to write music that would eventually become Taylor's critically acclaimed

10
00:00:53,876 --> 00:00:58,476
Speaker 2: indie leaning albums, Folklore and Evermore. Desner also has a

11
00:00:58,516 --> 00:01:02,236
Speaker 2: side project with Bonniever's Justin Vernon called Big Red Machine

12
00:01:02,556 --> 00:01:05,996
Speaker 2: that features collaborations with artists including a Naias Mitchell and

13
00:01:06,156 --> 00:01:10,916
Speaker 2: Sharon van Etten. On today's episode, Broken Record producer Leo

14
00:01:11,076 --> 00:01:14,196
Speaker 2: Rose talks to Aaron Desner about how an invitation to

15
00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:17,116
Speaker 2: open an arena tour for bonnie Ver led to him

16
00:01:17,116 --> 00:01:20,276
Speaker 2: writing the music that he would eventually share with Taylor Swift.

17
00:01:21,396 --> 00:01:24,036
Speaker 2: Aeron also talks about how the National almost came to

18
00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:27,276
Speaker 2: a breaking point after a grueling tour schedule, and he

19
00:01:27,356 --> 00:01:30,196
Speaker 2: opens up about his battle with depression as a teenager

20
00:01:30,516 --> 00:01:36,516
Speaker 2: and how his twin brother Bryce carried him through. This

21
00:01:36,716 --> 00:01:39,956
Speaker 2: is broken record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm

22
00:01:40,076 --> 00:01:44,276
Speaker 2: justin Mitchman. Here's Lea Rose with Aaron Desner.

23
00:01:45,636 --> 00:01:49,156
Speaker 3: I want to ask you about all your solo work,

24
00:01:49,396 --> 00:01:52,556
Speaker 3: and you have been so prolific as a producer, as

25
00:01:52,556 --> 00:01:56,436
Speaker 3: a songwriter, as a composer. But let's start by talking

26
00:01:56,476 --> 00:02:00,116
Speaker 3: about the new National album. So tell me the story

27
00:02:00,396 --> 00:02:02,436
Speaker 3: of the first two pages of Frankenstein.

28
00:02:03,076 --> 00:02:06,316
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so the first two pages of Frankenstein is

29
00:02:06,356 --> 00:02:11,556
Speaker 1: the National's ninth record. A nice feeling to have made

30
00:02:11,556 --> 00:02:15,516
Speaker 1: a record that I think is the best thing we've made,

31
00:02:15,556 --> 00:02:17,916
Speaker 1: even though I know artists always say that, but in

32
00:02:17,956 --> 00:02:21,956
Speaker 1: this case, I really do feel that it's somehow is

33
00:02:21,996 --> 00:02:26,516
Speaker 1: a distillation of everything we've done, or somehow it reminds

34
00:02:26,516 --> 00:02:28,436
Speaker 1: me of some of our earliest work and also some

35
00:02:28,516 --> 00:02:34,356
Speaker 1: of the most developed and somehow mature and evolved, you know,

36
00:02:34,396 --> 00:02:38,036
Speaker 1: at the same time. So, but the story of it,

37
00:02:38,076 --> 00:02:40,876
Speaker 1: I guess by the time we released Easy to Find,

38
00:02:40,876 --> 00:02:43,356
Speaker 1: which is the last record, which is a collaboration with

39
00:02:43,396 --> 00:02:47,476
Speaker 1: Mike Mills, this filmmaker and featured a number of female

40
00:02:47,556 --> 00:02:50,196
Speaker 1: vocalists that were duetting sort of with Matt and telling

41
00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:53,476
Speaker 1: the story of a woman's life from birth to death.

42
00:02:53,636 --> 00:02:56,796
Speaker 1: It was the most conceptual record we'd ever made. We

43
00:02:56,796 --> 00:02:59,876
Speaker 1: were sort of dissolving the identity of The National somehow,

44
00:03:00,276 --> 00:03:03,396
Speaker 1: or playing around with it more than we had before,

45
00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:06,796
Speaker 1: opening it up, having other people sing the songs, and

46
00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:10,356
Speaker 1: just kind of like it was after Sleep Well Beast,

47
00:03:10,636 --> 00:03:12,356
Speaker 1: which we had been a big record and we'd won

48
00:03:12,436 --> 00:03:16,596
Speaker 1: a Grammy for the Alternative Music Grammy, and it had

49
00:03:16,636 --> 00:03:18,916
Speaker 1: gone so well, and we'd toured so much, and then

50
00:03:18,996 --> 00:03:21,396
Speaker 1: Easy to Find happen and we were still on tour,

51
00:03:21,436 --> 00:03:23,516
Speaker 1: and this is like it felt like the end of

52
00:03:23,596 --> 00:03:26,196
Speaker 1: twenty years of touring, and we were all sort of

53
00:03:27,396 --> 00:03:29,556
Speaker 1: coming apart in a way, like as a band and

54
00:03:29,996 --> 00:03:35,316
Speaker 1: individually there were some we were running on fumes and

55
00:03:35,396 --> 00:03:38,516
Speaker 1: everything just sort of fell apart. Like we kind of

56
00:03:39,396 --> 00:03:42,676
Speaker 1: felt like it was unclear to me when The National

57
00:03:42,676 --> 00:03:45,996
Speaker 1: would write again or see each other again. Everyone was

58
00:03:46,236 --> 00:03:48,396
Speaker 1: in different places. My brother was in France and I

59
00:03:48,476 --> 00:03:51,036
Speaker 1: was stuck here and Matt was out in la and

60
00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:53,356
Speaker 1: like everyone in the world, we just kind of stayed put.

61
00:03:53,996 --> 00:03:56,196
Speaker 1: So I guess this record was really it took a

62
00:03:56,236 --> 00:03:59,996
Speaker 1: long It took a couple of years for us to

63
00:04:00,196 --> 00:04:01,196
Speaker 1: find our feet.

64
00:04:02,276 --> 00:04:05,276
Speaker 3: I was curious when you say that that last tour

65
00:04:05,476 --> 00:04:08,716
Speaker 3: that you took for the album, the wheels were falling

66
00:04:08,756 --> 00:04:13,796
Speaker 3: off and everything was sort of falling apart, with communication

67
00:04:13,956 --> 00:04:17,316
Speaker 3: breaking down at that point. How traditionally has the band

68
00:04:17,596 --> 00:04:19,836
Speaker 3: dealt with conflict in times like that.

69
00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:22,756
Speaker 1: A lot has been said about the National in terms

70
00:04:22,756 --> 00:04:25,676
Speaker 1: of it being this band of brothers, because there's two

71
00:04:25,756 --> 00:04:28,036
Speaker 1: sets of brothers and my brother and I and then

72
00:04:28,276 --> 00:04:31,396
Speaker 1: Scott and Brian Devon Dorf and then Matt who's the

73
00:04:31,396 --> 00:04:33,436
Speaker 1: only one who's not a brother, but he's like he's

74
00:04:33,476 --> 00:04:36,796
Speaker 1: sort of central figure as a singer and lyricist. And

75
00:04:37,756 --> 00:04:41,476
Speaker 1: historically Matt and I have butted heads because I tend

76
00:04:41,516 --> 00:04:45,036
Speaker 1: to generate most of the music, and we love each

77
00:04:45,076 --> 00:04:47,396
Speaker 1: other and we obviously are such good collaborators, but like,

78
00:04:47,716 --> 00:04:50,276
Speaker 1: if there's a disagreement, it was often between him and

79
00:04:50,316 --> 00:04:53,116
Speaker 1: I over like the push and pull of trying to

80
00:04:53,116 --> 00:04:56,956
Speaker 1: make something as good as we can. But actually it

81
00:04:57,036 --> 00:04:59,516
Speaker 1: was never that bad, really, I think we just also

82
00:05:00,036 --> 00:05:03,556
Speaker 1: it's like part of the identity of the band was

83
00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:09,116
Speaker 1: like this dysfunctional family or something. But over many, many

84
00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:11,276
Speaker 1: years of touring. I mean, because we sort of built

85
00:05:11,276 --> 00:05:15,996
Speaker 1: this band brick by brick from it started in nineteen

86
00:05:16,036 --> 00:05:18,516
Speaker 1: ninety nine. In two thousand and one, we started touring,

87
00:05:18,556 --> 00:05:21,196
Speaker 1: and we didn't really ever stop for more than a

88
00:05:21,236 --> 00:05:25,836
Speaker 1: month or two all those years, you know, and starting

89
00:05:25,876 --> 00:05:28,516
Speaker 1: with like in two thousand and five, Alligator came out,

90
00:05:28,556 --> 00:05:31,076
Speaker 1: and then it was Boxer, and then it was High Violet,

91
00:05:31,196 --> 00:05:35,316
Speaker 1: Trouble Will Find Me, Sleepobies Easy to Find, and all

92
00:05:35,396 --> 00:05:38,116
Speaker 1: of those records. I don't really think we made a

93
00:05:38,116 --> 00:05:40,156
Speaker 1: bad record, you know. I think we just kept making

94
00:05:41,516 --> 00:05:44,636
Speaker 1: better records or you know, they're all they're kind of siblings,

95
00:05:44,716 --> 00:05:47,756
Speaker 1: these records, And it did take a lot out of

96
00:05:47,796 --> 00:05:50,556
Speaker 1: us because at the same time we were touring, and

97
00:05:51,356 --> 00:05:53,236
Speaker 1: I just think at some point during Easy fin we

98
00:05:53,276 --> 00:05:55,556
Speaker 1: woke up and everyone was like moving in the opposite

99
00:05:55,596 --> 00:06:00,076
Speaker 1: direction from each other, but not out of any real spite.

100
00:06:00,156 --> 00:06:04,716
Speaker 1: It was a combination of maybe needing space from the

101
00:06:04,756 --> 00:06:08,996
Speaker 1: band and each other, but also we just don't want

102
00:06:08,996 --> 00:06:11,516
Speaker 1: to make anything that doesn't feel really inspired. So I

103
00:06:11,516 --> 00:06:14,156
Speaker 1: think at some point it was just started to feel

104
00:06:14,156 --> 00:06:15,516
Speaker 1: when I see the wheels were coming off, it was

105
00:06:15,556 --> 00:06:18,516
Speaker 1: just that feeling of your running on fumes and maybe

106
00:06:18,516 --> 00:06:22,316
Speaker 1: the well has gone dry a little bit. And the

107
00:06:22,436 --> 00:06:26,076
Speaker 1: day that Easy to Find came out, justin Vernon, Bonnie

108
00:06:26,076 --> 00:06:29,636
Speaker 1: Bear justin Vernon had called me. We'd you know, been

109
00:06:29,676 --> 00:06:31,396
Speaker 1: friends for a really long time and had gone so

110
00:06:31,516 --> 00:06:35,596
Speaker 1: close and obviously collaborated on many things, including Big Red Machine,

111
00:06:35,636 --> 00:06:37,436
Speaker 1: and we've been making all this Big Red Machine music

112
00:06:37,476 --> 00:06:42,596
Speaker 1: that was exciting. But he was scheduling this big European tour.

113
00:06:43,876 --> 00:06:45,756
Speaker 1: It was this arena chair that was supposed to be

114
00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:50,156
Speaker 1: in the fall of twenty twenty, I think, and he

115
00:06:50,196 --> 00:06:52,316
Speaker 1: called me the day Easy to Find came out, He said,

116
00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:56,916
Speaker 1: would you open my tour by yourself? He said, would

117
00:06:56,916 --> 00:06:58,156
Speaker 1: you open my tour? And I was like, well, what

118
00:06:58,196 --> 00:06:59,796
Speaker 1: do you mean? And he's like, well, I want you

119
00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:02,476
Speaker 1: to open it just by yourself. And I was like, well,

120
00:07:02,516 --> 00:07:05,916
Speaker 1: I've never actually played any I've never played any music

121
00:07:05,956 --> 00:07:08,436
Speaker 1: by myself in front of people, not even like an

122
00:07:08,436 --> 00:07:11,076
Speaker 1: open mic, you know that. He sort of said, but

123
00:07:11,236 --> 00:07:15,796
Speaker 1: I know I've seen I've seen what you do, and

124
00:07:15,836 --> 00:07:17,316
Speaker 1: I know what you do, and I think it'd be

125
00:07:17,356 --> 00:07:18,156
Speaker 1: really interesting.

126
00:07:18,676 --> 00:07:21,156
Speaker 3: What a beautiful compliment. I mean, that's just like so

127
00:07:21,236 --> 00:07:24,756
Speaker 3: incredible that he would believe in you at that level, like, yeah,

128
00:07:25,036 --> 00:07:27,196
Speaker 3: that did that feel really motivating for you?

129
00:07:27,956 --> 00:07:30,476
Speaker 1: It was a challenge. I mean, he's a really lovely

130
00:07:30,636 --> 00:07:35,436
Speaker 1: person and intuitive kind of friend, and he I think

131
00:07:35,516 --> 00:07:39,276
Speaker 1: he was interested in what it would do creatively for

132
00:07:39,396 --> 00:07:43,676
Speaker 1: me and so and it wasn't in opposition to anything,

133
00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:46,116
Speaker 1: not definitely, not in opposition to the national It was

134
00:07:46,196 --> 00:07:49,076
Speaker 1: just like do it, just do it. And I was like, Okay,

135
00:07:49,116 --> 00:07:51,876
Speaker 1: I'll do it. And so from that point I started

136
00:07:51,876 --> 00:07:55,276
Speaker 1: to write a lot of music just thinking about how

137
00:07:55,316 --> 00:07:56,876
Speaker 1: would I do that? How would I stand in the

138
00:07:56,916 --> 00:08:02,996
Speaker 1: Wembley Arena by myself and play for fifteen thousand people,

139
00:08:03,036 --> 00:08:05,036
Speaker 1: or you know, how would I do that? And it

140
00:08:05,076 --> 00:08:07,236
Speaker 1: was a good challenge and so I started that really

141
00:08:07,276 --> 00:08:10,076
Speaker 1: like started this during the Easy to Find Her. I

142
00:08:10,116 --> 00:08:13,156
Speaker 1: was making all this stuff. So that year when we

143
00:08:13,156 --> 00:08:16,876
Speaker 1: were touring for that record, in the backstages and everywhere,

144
00:08:16,916 --> 00:08:20,036
Speaker 1: I was writing all this music that I took to

145
00:08:20,116 --> 00:08:22,636
Speaker 1: the point of being ready kind of for me to

146
00:08:23,276 --> 00:08:25,596
Speaker 1: cause I knew that it was coming. And then the

147
00:08:25,596 --> 00:08:29,356
Speaker 1: pandemic hit and I was like, oh, okay, well glad

148
00:08:29,396 --> 00:08:30,956
Speaker 1: I did all that, but now what's it for?

149
00:08:31,796 --> 00:08:33,116
Speaker 3: Oh? Were you disappointed?

150
00:08:33,316 --> 00:08:36,316
Speaker 1: I wasn't disappointed. Actually I was relieved maybe that I

151
00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:39,716
Speaker 1: didn't have to do it because it was actually terrifying.

152
00:08:39,756 --> 00:08:43,036
Speaker 1: But I think that it kind of like started an

153
00:08:43,316 --> 00:08:47,796
Speaker 1: interesting growth for me. And I say this with regard

154
00:08:47,836 --> 00:08:50,796
Speaker 1: to where the National was. I feel like there are

155
00:08:50,956 --> 00:08:54,396
Speaker 1: clues in that also to eventually how I came back

156
00:08:54,436 --> 00:08:57,116
Speaker 1: to work on new national music, because it was clear

157
00:08:57,116 --> 00:08:59,196
Speaker 1: to me as I was making this music, you know,

158
00:08:59,276 --> 00:09:02,516
Speaker 1: to open the bony virtue, that it wasn't national music,

159
00:09:02,556 --> 00:09:05,196
Speaker 1: it was something else. And actually a lot of that

160
00:09:05,476 --> 00:09:08,236
Speaker 1: stuff ended up being what I shared with Taylor Swift

161
00:09:08,236 --> 00:09:11,876
Speaker 1: when she approached me during the pandemic or like in

162
00:09:11,916 --> 00:09:17,076
Speaker 1: April twenty twenty. But basically I was feeling very prolific

163
00:09:17,116 --> 00:09:19,756
Speaker 1: and very creative. But it was for the first time

164
00:09:19,876 --> 00:09:22,036
Speaker 1: I knew that it was for something else instead of

165
00:09:22,076 --> 00:09:26,556
Speaker 1: always I was always directed into the National for all

166
00:09:26,636 --> 00:09:31,516
Speaker 1: those years, and then suddenly I found myself widely collaborating

167
00:09:31,556 --> 00:09:34,156
Speaker 1: outside of it, which was exciting. And I think that

168
00:09:34,836 --> 00:09:37,796
Speaker 1: the story of this record is kind of the story

169
00:09:37,836 --> 00:09:41,716
Speaker 1: of us all having a lot of experiences and growing,

170
00:09:41,756 --> 00:09:45,076
Speaker 1: I think, and also sort of hibernating and taking care

171
00:09:45,116 --> 00:09:48,876
Speaker 1: of ourselves and their loved ones during this weird time

172
00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:52,596
Speaker 1: and then eventually coming back into it and really leaning

173
00:09:52,636 --> 00:09:55,516
Speaker 1: into each other in our strengths and kind of saying,

174
00:09:56,516 --> 00:09:59,076
Speaker 1: I don't know, this was actually, weirdly the most harmonious

175
00:09:59,116 --> 00:10:01,116
Speaker 1: process that we've ever had. And I think it was

176
00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:04,156
Speaker 1: because we had space, you know, from right, And.

177
00:10:04,156 --> 00:10:07,036
Speaker 3: It sounds like everyone was able to focus on different

178
00:10:07,076 --> 00:10:10,676
Speaker 3: projects if they wanted, or just get time to sort

179
00:10:10,676 --> 00:10:13,316
Speaker 3: of like you know, replenish themselves.

180
00:10:14,076 --> 00:10:18,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Like at some point, you know, I

181
00:10:18,396 --> 00:10:23,796
Speaker 1: ended up in this wildly prolific time with Taylor collaborating remotely,

182
00:10:23,796 --> 00:10:25,956
Speaker 1: and we made folklore, and then we made evermore all

183
00:10:25,996 --> 00:10:30,156
Speaker 1: in the same year and at the same time. Then

184
00:10:30,236 --> 00:10:33,156
Speaker 1: I finished the Big the second Bigger Machine record, and

185
00:10:33,956 --> 00:10:37,316
Speaker 1: made a ton of music with all sorts of people.

186
00:10:37,556 --> 00:10:40,796
Speaker 1: But at some point I started to have the realization

187
00:10:40,916 --> 00:10:42,876
Speaker 1: that I would be making music and I'd be like, wait,

188
00:10:42,916 --> 00:10:44,116
Speaker 1: this is a national song.

189
00:10:44,636 --> 00:10:46,516
Speaker 3: So how do you know when it's a national song.

190
00:10:46,876 --> 00:10:49,956
Speaker 1: It's because you can feel the engine of the band

191
00:10:50,076 --> 00:10:52,916
Speaker 1: in your hands or in your heart. You start to

192
00:10:53,076 --> 00:10:55,316
Speaker 1: I'll make something because I if I pick up an

193
00:10:55,316 --> 00:10:58,476
Speaker 1: instrument or sit down an instrument, it's very natural for

194
00:10:58,556 --> 00:11:01,556
Speaker 1: me that I it almost immediately I start generating. It's

195
00:11:01,596 --> 00:11:02,836
Speaker 1: just the way I think it comes from when I

196
00:11:02,876 --> 00:11:05,636
Speaker 1: was a kid, Like how I relate to music. It's

197
00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:10,556
Speaker 1: not like it's almost physical and visceral. It's an emotional

198
00:11:10,596 --> 00:11:14,356
Speaker 1: process where I'm I'm like tapping into a current within myself.

199
00:11:14,356 --> 00:11:16,236
Speaker 1: But the way it comes out on instruments it kind

200
00:11:16,276 --> 00:11:21,396
Speaker 1: of feels locomotive or meditative or sort of. Oftentimes it's

201
00:11:21,436 --> 00:11:26,356
Speaker 1: this sort of circular patterns and behaviors. There's certain ways

202
00:11:26,396 --> 00:11:28,836
Speaker 1: of playing or feeling where I can feel how the

203
00:11:28,876 --> 00:11:31,356
Speaker 1: others might bounce off of it, or like, oh, like

204
00:11:31,516 --> 00:11:35,156
Speaker 1: I could hear my brother or harmonizing what I'm playing,

205
00:11:35,236 --> 00:11:38,356
Speaker 1: or I could hear Brian like his No one can

206
00:11:38,436 --> 00:11:41,716
Speaker 1: drum like him, and when he really locks into something,

207
00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:45,756
Speaker 1: it becomes so much more. Or the way Matt and

208
00:11:45,956 --> 00:11:50,276
Speaker 1: even like sometimes you start to hear your bandmates because

209
00:11:50,316 --> 00:11:53,516
Speaker 1: it is it's like this family feeling. So that started

210
00:11:53,516 --> 00:11:56,076
Speaker 1: to come back at some point in a very strong way.

211
00:11:56,116 --> 00:11:59,316
Speaker 1: So I started to have a folder of ideas that

212
00:11:59,436 --> 00:12:02,516
Speaker 1: I felt were really strong, and then my brother did too,

213
00:12:02,556 --> 00:12:04,396
Speaker 1: and it just started the well started to fill and

214
00:12:04,436 --> 00:12:07,676
Speaker 1: eventually it was overflowing. But this is a this is

215
00:12:07,716 --> 00:12:09,636
Speaker 1: a good like well over a year, year, a year

216
00:12:09,636 --> 00:12:12,316
Speaker 1: and a half after we'd said goodbye, not knowing it

217
00:12:12,356 --> 00:12:13,996
Speaker 1: was goodbye. I think it was the last show as

218
00:12:14,036 --> 00:12:19,836
Speaker 1: in Lisbon, Portugal in December twenty nineteen, and it was

219
00:12:20,076 --> 00:12:23,316
Speaker 1: like in this beautiful in the Kempo Pekenyo I think

220
00:12:23,356 --> 00:12:26,276
Speaker 1: it was Kempo Peginio or in the Colisseum, fifteen thousand

221
00:12:26,276 --> 00:12:29,636
Speaker 1: people wow, and they were all it was just this

222
00:12:29,716 --> 00:12:32,516
Speaker 1: amazing show. And I remember thinking, if this is the

223
00:12:32,596 --> 00:12:35,996
Speaker 1: last National show, this would be a good way to

224
00:12:36,276 --> 00:12:38,716
Speaker 1: end it. And then it seemed like it was the

225
00:12:38,876 --> 00:12:41,356
Speaker 1: end of it, you know, both because of the pandemic,

226
00:12:41,356 --> 00:12:43,956
Speaker 1: but also because of just where we all were for

227
00:12:43,996 --> 00:12:46,116
Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, So it was just it was a

228
00:12:46,196 --> 00:12:49,196
Speaker 1: nice feeling when the well suddenly was full. And I

229
00:12:49,196 --> 00:12:54,516
Speaker 1: remember just sharing music with Matt finally and being like,

230
00:12:54,636 --> 00:12:56,556
Speaker 1: I don't know, there might be things in here, you know.

231
00:12:57,596 --> 00:12:59,716
Speaker 3: So when you're writing music for the National, when you

232
00:12:59,756 --> 00:13:02,596
Speaker 3: sit down and if you're writing on guitar or you're

233
00:13:02,596 --> 00:13:05,236
Speaker 3: writing on piano or whatever it is, whatever the instrument is,

234
00:13:05,836 --> 00:13:08,756
Speaker 3: do you hear phantom parts from other members in the band.

235
00:13:09,516 --> 00:13:12,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I think after so many years of

236
00:13:13,116 --> 00:13:16,276
Speaker 1: working together. We're very aware of each other. I mean

237
00:13:16,236 --> 00:13:18,716
Speaker 1: because Bryce and Brian and I have played together since

238
00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:20,916
Speaker 1: we were in middle school, and Bryce and I since

239
00:13:20,956 --> 00:13:24,796
Speaker 1: we're tiny, but I naturally know when there's a pocket

240
00:13:24,876 --> 00:13:28,916
Speaker 1: that Brian can exploit, you know, or can kind of

241
00:13:28,956 --> 00:13:31,356
Speaker 1: like we joke it's like, well is the horse is

242
00:13:31,356 --> 00:13:33,596
Speaker 1: the horse? You're gonna run sort of like you pull

243
00:13:33,676 --> 00:13:36,156
Speaker 1: him out of the barn. And because it is like that,

244
00:13:36,196 --> 00:13:38,436
Speaker 1: like when he hooks into something, it's kind of a

245
00:13:39,316 --> 00:13:43,156
Speaker 1: it's just a feeling. But yeah, I hear, particularly I

246
00:13:43,236 --> 00:13:45,996
Speaker 1: hear my brother, you know, both what he can do

247
00:13:46,036 --> 00:13:48,796
Speaker 1: with the guitar to what I'm doing with the guitar

248
00:13:48,916 --> 00:13:51,276
Speaker 1: or piano or anything whatever I'm playing, but also like

249
00:13:51,396 --> 00:13:55,836
Speaker 1: his orchestration and how he might add complexity to something

250
00:13:55,956 --> 00:14:00,596
Speaker 1: or develop it. And that's it does seem. Really part

251
00:14:00,676 --> 00:14:02,596
Speaker 1: of the gift of the band is that we don't

252
00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:07,036
Speaker 1: seem to get stuck or stale. Somehow, it feels like

253
00:14:07,076 --> 00:14:10,556
Speaker 1: it's it still feels ever when we actually try to

254
00:14:10,596 --> 00:14:12,956
Speaker 1: make something. It kind of because we also throw away

255
00:14:12,996 --> 00:14:16,196
Speaker 1: a lot and we get sick of we probably made.

256
00:14:16,236 --> 00:14:18,476
Speaker 1: We made a lot more music for this record than

257
00:14:18,476 --> 00:14:20,996
Speaker 1: we ultimately put on it, and a lot of it's

258
00:14:21,036 --> 00:14:22,956
Speaker 1: really strong, but I think there's a it's hard for

259
00:14:22,996 --> 00:14:24,476
Speaker 1: five people to feel confident.

260
00:14:24,996 --> 00:14:26,916
Speaker 3: Yeah, how does that process work when you have a

261
00:14:26,956 --> 00:14:30,076
Speaker 3: song you're working on and let's say like three people

262
00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:32,116
Speaker 3: in the band think it's great, good to go, like

263
00:14:32,236 --> 00:14:35,956
Speaker 3: should be on the album, somebody's a holdout, How does

264
00:14:36,036 --> 00:14:36,996
Speaker 3: that process work?

265
00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:41,636
Speaker 1: Well, there is, I would say Matt and I tend

266
00:14:41,676 --> 00:14:44,596
Speaker 1: to be the most opinionated or some or the most

267
00:14:44,636 --> 00:14:48,396
Speaker 1: focused in the weeds, you know, and we tend to

268
00:14:48,436 --> 00:14:53,076
Speaker 1: try to agree or to argue between ourselves and then agree.

269
00:14:53,116 --> 00:14:57,156
Speaker 1: So for this record, eventually Matt called me after we'd

270
00:14:57,156 --> 00:15:01,076
Speaker 1: made probably twenty five songs and finished them and mix them,

271
00:15:01,276 --> 00:15:03,836
Speaker 1: and he said, and it was kind of because in

272
00:15:03,876 --> 00:15:07,076
Speaker 1: the past there were these elaborate chess matches of sort

273
00:15:07,116 --> 00:15:11,316
Speaker 1: of even that like kind of a mind games we

274
00:15:11,316 --> 00:15:13,036
Speaker 1: would have to play with each other where it's like,

275
00:15:13,756 --> 00:15:17,436
Speaker 1: you know, it's like he used stalking horses, where you're like,

276
00:15:17,676 --> 00:15:19,756
Speaker 1: you pretend to really care about a song that you

277
00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:21,476
Speaker 1: don't care about so you can give it up so

278
00:15:21,516 --> 00:15:24,036
Speaker 1: he doesn't go after the one that you actually care about.

279
00:15:24,756 --> 00:15:26,756
Speaker 1: And we would do that even with like parts of

280
00:15:26,836 --> 00:15:30,476
Speaker 1: songs like it's really funny like there and that song

281
00:15:30,516 --> 00:15:34,156
Speaker 1: the System Only Dreams in Total Darkness. That's on Sleep

282
00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:36,396
Speaker 1: Well Beast. There's this big I play this big guitar

283
00:15:36,516 --> 00:15:38,596
Speaker 1: solo that I knew he loved, you know, but then

284
00:15:38,636 --> 00:15:41,836
Speaker 1: he was he didn't like this layer of percussion I

285
00:15:41,956 --> 00:15:44,276
Speaker 1: really loved. So I was like, fine, we can turn

286
00:15:44,316 --> 00:15:46,796
Speaker 1: off the percussion, but I'm also going to turn off

287
00:15:46,836 --> 00:15:49,396
Speaker 1: the guitar solo because I can't live with the guitar

288
00:15:49,476 --> 00:15:51,596
Speaker 1: so if it doesn't have the support of the percussion.

289
00:15:51,636 --> 00:15:53,556
Speaker 1: He's like, no, no, you can't turn off the guitar.

290
00:15:53,716 --> 00:15:57,116
Speaker 1: So so we like that was like, yeah, that was

291
00:15:57,156 --> 00:16:01,436
Speaker 1: back when we were more childish, But this time he Matt.

292
00:16:02,036 --> 00:16:05,196
Speaker 1: Matt had gone through a hard time with like writers, blocking,

293
00:16:05,276 --> 00:16:08,676
Speaker 1: just some the pandemic was a hard period for him,

294
00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:12,636
Speaker 1: and he came out of it and really gradually just

295
00:16:13,276 --> 00:16:16,436
Speaker 1: he started to write and write and write, and towards

296
00:16:16,476 --> 00:16:18,396
Speaker 1: the end, they just kept being more and more songs

297
00:16:18,436 --> 00:16:20,756
Speaker 1: that we were finishing. So what we thought was the

298
00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:24,796
Speaker 1: record kept evolving, and eventually what it became was quite

299
00:16:24,796 --> 00:16:27,796
Speaker 1: different from the first you know, several months we were

300
00:16:27,796 --> 00:16:31,676
Speaker 1: working on it, like by last spring, it had kind

301
00:16:31,716 --> 00:16:34,996
Speaker 1: of morphed into something else. And he called me when

302
00:16:35,036 --> 00:16:36,996
Speaker 1: we were done mixing, and he said, you know, we

303
00:16:37,036 --> 00:16:41,236
Speaker 1: had mixed almost two records worth of material, and he said, look,

304
00:16:41,276 --> 00:16:45,596
Speaker 1: I think it's these eleven songs. And for the first

305
00:16:45,676 --> 00:16:50,476
Speaker 1: time ever, I just was so relieved and happy and

306
00:16:50,636 --> 00:16:55,796
Speaker 1: confident to hear his vision, you know, and to feel

307
00:16:56,796 --> 00:17:00,796
Speaker 1: how to feel how inspired he was and the clarity

308
00:17:01,756 --> 00:17:04,916
Speaker 1: in his mind. And I just embraced it. And then

309
00:17:04,916 --> 00:17:06,596
Speaker 1: I called my brother because he would be the next

310
00:17:06,636 --> 00:17:07,516
Speaker 1: most difficult.

311
00:17:08,356 --> 00:17:10,076
Speaker 3: It's like all these people you have to convince.

312
00:17:10,556 --> 00:17:12,996
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think Bryce would have preferred that he

313
00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:16,396
Speaker 1: and I had had a conversation before that conversation with Matt,

314
00:17:16,956 --> 00:17:20,996
Speaker 1: because there's some interest, there's some really interesting, amazing songs

315
00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:24,196
Speaker 1: that aren't on it, or that are more complex musically

316
00:17:24,276 --> 00:17:26,756
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. But and so I had to

317
00:17:27,356 --> 00:17:29,276
Speaker 1: have that conversation with Bryce. But it took, you know,

318
00:17:29,356 --> 00:17:33,676
Speaker 1: maybe took a second for Bryce to see that Matt

319
00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:36,636
Speaker 1: was right. But he I think Matt he had somehow

320
00:17:36,716 --> 00:17:40,796
Speaker 1: distilled what the story and emotional framework and current of

321
00:17:40,836 --> 00:17:43,476
Speaker 1: the record was and he felt and he sort of

322
00:17:43,476 --> 00:17:45,356
Speaker 1: had it. And so that was really a nice feeling.

323
00:17:45,356 --> 00:17:49,196
Speaker 1: And I also think it relates to where I was

324
00:17:49,956 --> 00:17:54,556
Speaker 1: personally having made all this other music and having generated

325
00:17:54,596 --> 00:17:57,836
Speaker 1: so much, I became less attached to any one idea

326
00:17:58,196 --> 00:18:03,676
Speaker 1: and also maybe more trusting of someone else's vision and

327
00:18:03,876 --> 00:18:06,916
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, just some space from the

328
00:18:07,036 --> 00:18:10,316
Speaker 1: national helped me kind of relax about it.

329
00:18:10,396 --> 00:18:13,756
Speaker 3: Also, did you feel more confident in yourself as a

330
00:18:14,076 --> 00:18:17,956
Speaker 3: as a producer or as a musician at that point, Yeah.

331
00:18:17,796 --> 00:18:20,716
Speaker 1: It was like during the pandemic. I just for the

332
00:18:20,756 --> 00:18:24,556
Speaker 1: first time and almost two decades, I got to be

333
00:18:24,716 --> 00:18:29,516
Speaker 1: home and just walk the fifty yards or whatever it

334
00:18:29,556 --> 00:18:32,916
Speaker 1: is between my house and the studio every day and

335
00:18:32,996 --> 00:18:36,276
Speaker 1: work really intensely with people, you know, like that work

336
00:18:36,316 --> 00:18:38,876
Speaker 1: that I did with Taylor. I was learning so much

337
00:18:39,356 --> 00:18:43,636
Speaker 1: just every day from her and from the process, and

338
00:18:43,716 --> 00:18:47,596
Speaker 1: growing more confident, I guess, having more seeing how she

339
00:18:47,676 --> 00:18:50,156
Speaker 1: could bounce off the music I was making, and how

340
00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:53,236
Speaker 1: we could write and finish songs that I was so

341
00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:59,476
Speaker 1: compelled by, and then that process, you know, going into

342
00:18:59,556 --> 00:19:02,676
Speaker 1: working with other people. I did. I grew a lot

343
00:19:02,956 --> 00:19:05,276
Speaker 1: as a producer and as a songwriter, and I think

344
00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:10,476
Speaker 1: I did also come to really value and appreciate what

345
00:19:10,516 --> 00:19:15,556
Speaker 1: the National is capable of in my collaboration with all

346
00:19:15,596 --> 00:19:18,916
Speaker 1: of them and with Matt, just how meaningful it is

347
00:19:18,996 --> 00:19:22,476
Speaker 1: and and trusting that you know that all these songs

348
00:19:22,476 --> 00:19:26,356
Speaker 1: are amazing. You know, they're compelling, and they're in there.

349
00:19:27,236 --> 00:19:29,996
Speaker 1: There's for anything to get to the point of being done.

350
00:19:30,036 --> 00:19:34,436
Speaker 1: It already has so much there. So like, if there's

351
00:19:34,476 --> 00:19:37,516
Speaker 1: twenty five songs and we choose eleven for a record,

352
00:19:37,556 --> 00:19:42,076
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that the other fourteen won't eventually, you know,

353
00:19:42,196 --> 00:19:44,676
Speaker 1: also see the light of day. We used to hold

354
00:19:44,756 --> 00:19:48,996
Speaker 1: everything so tightly because we were terrified, terrified of like

355
00:19:49,596 --> 00:19:51,756
Speaker 1: none of us are natural entertainers and none of us

356
00:19:51,836 --> 00:19:54,876
Speaker 1: are that. We kind of came up through the indie

357
00:19:54,956 --> 00:20:00,236
Speaker 1: rock gauntlet of Pitchfork and you know, live or die

358
00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:04,596
Speaker 1: by each record. If like, we all wanted to do

359
00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:06,516
Speaker 1: this and we loved it so much, but we could

360
00:20:06,516 --> 00:20:11,156
Speaker 1: also we knew how tenu it was and how I

361
00:20:11,156 --> 00:20:12,836
Speaker 1: don't know. We were never the type of band to

362
00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:14,876
Speaker 1: fall in love with our shadow or think we were

363
00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:16,796
Speaker 1: that great. We were kind of the opposite. We thought

364
00:20:16,796 --> 00:20:18,836
Speaker 1: we were like the bad News Bears all the time

365
00:20:19,356 --> 00:20:22,236
Speaker 1: and still do. It's like we're still kind of like

366
00:20:22,396 --> 00:20:26,276
Speaker 1: we don't celebrate any achievement for very long, and we

367
00:20:26,356 --> 00:20:29,356
Speaker 1: kind of dwell on the on anything that's vaguely pathetic,

368
00:20:29,516 --> 00:20:32,236
Speaker 1: you know, we're kind of like, that's the thing we noticed.

369
00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:34,636
Speaker 1: It's like instead of being like, wow, you know, traffic

370
00:20:34,636 --> 00:20:37,116
Speaker 1: Morning News is number five on the Triple h RT,

371
00:20:37,156 --> 00:20:39,956
Speaker 1: we're like, wow, we're stuck at number five below the

372
00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:43,556
Speaker 1: Dave Matthew's been like, oh well, but that's just kind

373
00:20:43,556 --> 00:20:46,996
Speaker 1: of that. It's like the nature of self effacing Ohio

374
00:20:47,316 --> 00:20:50,676
Speaker 1: or something where we come from is kind of like

375
00:20:50,836 --> 00:20:52,836
Speaker 1: just don't don't think you're all that.

376
00:20:53,196 --> 00:20:55,276
Speaker 3: That could be helpful, though totally.

377
00:20:55,316 --> 00:20:57,476
Speaker 1: I wish sometimes I could enjoy it all a little more.

378
00:20:57,556 --> 00:20:59,276
Speaker 1: My brother and I talk about this, is like why

379
00:21:00,436 --> 00:21:02,636
Speaker 1: like even when we want a Grammy or something and

380
00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:05,276
Speaker 1: I've won Grammys, and like even I kind of like,

381
00:21:05,316 --> 00:21:08,636
Speaker 1: instead of thinking that's fun yor great, I'm the type

382
00:21:08,676 --> 00:21:11,716
Speaker 1: to be like, well, my favorite artists have never won

383
00:21:11,836 --> 00:21:13,596
Speaker 1: Grammys or you know, that kind of thing, like so

384
00:21:13,756 --> 00:21:15,796
Speaker 1: like what does it really mean? Anyways, Yeah, that kind

385
00:21:15,796 --> 00:21:18,036
Speaker 1: of thing. But anyways, I'm trying to get better at

386
00:21:18,116 --> 00:21:20,356
Speaker 1: just enjoying the enjoying the moment.

387
00:21:21,956 --> 00:21:23,676
Speaker 2: We have to take a quick break, and then we'll

388
00:21:23,676 --> 00:21:26,756
Speaker 2: come back with more from Leo Rose and Aaron Desner.

389
00:21:31,196 --> 00:21:34,076
Speaker 2: We're back with Aaron Dosner and Leo Rose.

390
00:21:35,036 --> 00:21:37,436
Speaker 3: I saw pictures of you at the Grammys this year,

391
00:21:37,596 --> 00:21:40,596
Speaker 3: like sitting sort of like at Taylor's table or near her,

392
00:21:40,676 --> 00:21:42,596
Speaker 3: and I was just wondering, like, what was that like

393
00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:46,436
Speaker 3: for you being in that scene? Is it fun? Like?

394
00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:47,516
Speaker 3: Is it a fun night?

395
00:21:48,036 --> 00:21:51,076
Speaker 1: I mean, Taylor is amazing. She's a good like we've

396
00:21:51,116 --> 00:21:55,196
Speaker 1: become really close friends, and she couldn't be more lovely

397
00:21:55,276 --> 00:21:59,596
Speaker 1: and fun and just she's legitimately just a really lovely,

398
00:22:01,156 --> 00:22:04,396
Speaker 1: hyper intelligent, down to earth person. So I love hanging

399
00:22:04,396 --> 00:22:06,596
Speaker 1: out with her. And even in that, like I think

400
00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:10,556
Speaker 1: those situations it's so unnatural for me to be have

401
00:22:10,636 --> 00:22:14,036
Speaker 1: a camera in my face or be in the spotlight

402
00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:16,716
Speaker 1: like that or have to look like I'm having a

403
00:22:16,716 --> 00:22:19,796
Speaker 1: good time all the time, but genuinely hanging out with

404
00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:24,916
Speaker 1: her and with Jack Antonoff and Margaret quality with it.

405
00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:27,076
Speaker 1: We're sitting with us and it was just fun. So

406
00:22:27,116 --> 00:22:29,236
Speaker 1: I was able to relax and have fun. And she's

407
00:22:29,396 --> 00:22:33,676
Speaker 1: really It's intense for her also, I would imagine because

408
00:22:33,996 --> 00:22:37,356
Speaker 1: there's always attention on her because of who she is,

409
00:22:37,396 --> 00:22:41,756
Speaker 1: but she manages to have a good time and to

410
00:22:41,796 --> 00:22:44,636
Speaker 1: help people around her have a good time. So I

411
00:22:44,676 --> 00:22:47,396
Speaker 1: was lucky in that sense. And I've even you know,

412
00:22:47,396 --> 00:22:51,676
Speaker 1: because we went to the pandemic Grammys altogether for Folklore

413
00:22:51,676 --> 00:22:54,236
Speaker 1: when we won, so that I was thankful for that

414
00:22:54,276 --> 00:22:56,636
Speaker 1: because i'd sort of this was quite different. It was

415
00:22:56,716 --> 00:23:00,276
Speaker 1: much more like whoa. This was more in a weird way.

416
00:23:00,316 --> 00:23:04,156
Speaker 1: This was more fun, was like more energy. The Folklore

417
00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:07,316
Speaker 1: one was almost like easier though, because there was just

418
00:23:07,396 --> 00:23:09,356
Speaker 1: no You just went and said out a tiny little

419
00:23:09,356 --> 00:23:10,476
Speaker 1: table and there was no audience.

420
00:23:11,036 --> 00:23:13,156
Speaker 3: It was a bizarre scene. Yeah, I was looking at

421
00:23:13,196 --> 00:23:16,196
Speaker 3: that like, wow, this is such a strange Grammys.

422
00:23:16,036 --> 00:23:19,956
Speaker 1: Totally, but it is. I think it's been really fun

423
00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:24,636
Speaker 1: to be around that, you know, as as I've been

424
00:23:24,676 --> 00:23:26,796
Speaker 1: to the Grammys a few times, like with the National

425
00:23:26,836 --> 00:23:29,316
Speaker 1: went years ago when we were nominated for Trouble Will

426
00:23:29,356 --> 00:23:32,316
Speaker 1: Find Me, and we had no idea what the Grammys

427
00:23:32,316 --> 00:23:36,196
Speaker 1: were actually like, so we didn't realize that our Grammy,

428
00:23:36,236 --> 00:23:39,316
Speaker 1: the Alternative Rock or Alternative Music one that we were

429
00:23:39,356 --> 00:23:42,196
Speaker 1: nominated for, was actually not part of the telecast and

430
00:23:42,276 --> 00:23:44,836
Speaker 1: so oh, we were kind of in our tickets to

431
00:23:44,916 --> 00:23:47,756
Speaker 1: the actual real we joke, the real Grammys, the part

432
00:23:47,796 --> 00:23:49,876
Speaker 1: that's like the eight Awards or whatever it is that

433
00:23:49,916 --> 00:23:52,396
Speaker 1: are actually on TV. Like our tickets for that we

434
00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:56,476
Speaker 1: were like way back, you know, not even like in

435
00:23:56,556 --> 00:23:59,796
Speaker 1: the like in the noses, and it was kind of

436
00:23:59,836 --> 00:24:01,396
Speaker 1: like and we were all just like, well, why did

437
00:24:01,396 --> 00:24:04,356
Speaker 1: we even come? And who cares? And so the next

438
00:24:04,436 --> 00:24:06,956
Speaker 1: year or a couple of years later, when sleep Obeast

439
00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:11,036
Speaker 1: was nominated, we just didn't go. And actually Scott was

440
00:24:11,076 --> 00:24:13,476
Speaker 1: the only one who went because he was in town.

441
00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:16,116
Speaker 1: And then I was actually in the shower, not watching

442
00:24:16,156 --> 00:24:18,556
Speaker 1: and ingrid my. I have my daughter who's now eleven.

443
00:24:18,636 --> 00:24:20,756
Speaker 1: But she came in and she was like, Daddy, like

444
00:24:20,836 --> 00:24:24,236
Speaker 1: you want a Grammy? Like is that bad? Is that bad?

445
00:24:24,756 --> 00:24:27,076
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, well it's not bad. She's

446
00:24:27,476 --> 00:24:29,476
Speaker 1: and it's like is it good. I was like, well,

447
00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:33,956
Speaker 1: it's not exactly good, you know. But fast forward to

448
00:24:34,036 --> 00:24:36,916
Speaker 1: Folklore Grammys. It was fun to actually just like have

449
00:24:37,036 --> 00:24:41,116
Speaker 1: a great time and I think it really deserved to win.

450
00:24:41,276 --> 00:24:45,756
Speaker 1: And Taylor is it was really fun to perform with.

451
00:24:46,116 --> 00:24:49,716
Speaker 1: It was amazing, like actually performing with her and Jack.

452
00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:52,596
Speaker 1: And then Taylor won for Best Video, which was great.

453
00:24:52,636 --> 00:24:55,196
Speaker 1: And so I don't know, it's fun. It's like I'm

454
00:24:55,276 --> 00:24:58,036
Speaker 1: learning to just go with the flow and have fun

455
00:24:58,076 --> 00:25:00,876
Speaker 1: and not not really think that much about it.

456
00:25:01,036 --> 00:25:04,396
Speaker 3: So it must be interesting to see her in different environments,

457
00:25:04,436 --> 00:25:06,996
Speaker 3: because when you were working on Folklore and Evermore, it

458
00:25:07,036 --> 00:25:08,756
Speaker 3: sounds like you were just sort of hold up in

459
00:25:08,796 --> 00:25:13,236
Speaker 3: your studio, and it was during the pandemic, so I imagine

460
00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:16,476
Speaker 3: there weren't many people around and you were just collaborating

461
00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:19,156
Speaker 3: on music and writing music. And then to see her

462
00:25:19,196 --> 00:25:22,556
Speaker 3: in a setting like the Grammys where she's like one

463
00:25:22,596 --> 00:25:25,996
Speaker 3: of the biggest superstars in the room, Yeah, what did

464
00:25:25,996 --> 00:25:28,836
Speaker 3: you learn from seeing those two sides of her?

465
00:25:29,716 --> 00:25:32,476
Speaker 1: It is interesting yet, because I got to know her

466
00:25:32,876 --> 00:25:36,836
Speaker 1: closely in a time where she was very much out

467
00:25:36,836 --> 00:25:40,676
Speaker 1: of the public eye. And I think very much the

468
00:25:40,756 --> 00:25:46,676
Speaker 1: work that we did with Folklore and Evermore we benefited

469
00:25:46,676 --> 00:25:49,836
Speaker 1: from sort of everything had stopped and we were just

470
00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:54,076
Speaker 1: really making the music that felt natural in that moment,

471
00:25:54,236 --> 00:25:57,276
Speaker 1: and this kind of exchange of ideas was rapid and

472
00:25:57,916 --> 00:26:01,596
Speaker 1: very prolific and very you know, her songwriting and the

473
00:26:01,716 --> 00:26:03,716
Speaker 1: music I was making in the music we were making

474
00:26:03,756 --> 00:26:07,676
Speaker 1: together just felt incredibly natural, and we got eventually we

475
00:26:07,756 --> 00:26:11,836
Speaker 1: got to spend time together and do work here at

476
00:26:11,836 --> 00:26:15,356
Speaker 1: Long Pond, and folklore was all remote. But then evermore

477
00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:19,356
Speaker 1: we were together more and we had amazing moments, you know,

478
00:26:19,396 --> 00:26:22,196
Speaker 1: and just kind of sitting with this, how did this happen?

479
00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:24,556
Speaker 1: How do we make all all of this stuff that

480
00:26:24,676 --> 00:26:27,196
Speaker 1: is so meaningful to us and eventually to you know,

481
00:26:27,236 --> 00:26:30,796
Speaker 1: when it got released to her fans and to all

482
00:26:30,836 --> 00:26:33,396
Speaker 1: my fans, and just it felt like this whole story

483
00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:36,636
Speaker 1: that had almost written itself during that time, and it

484
00:26:36,676 --> 00:26:39,316
Speaker 1: was you know, special, and it was really different than

485
00:26:40,516 --> 00:26:43,476
Speaker 1: when everything restarted, and you know, we collac I did

486
00:26:43,596 --> 00:26:47,796
Speaker 1: work on I was lucky to participate in the re

487
00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:52,796
Speaker 1: recording of Fearless and of Red, and she contributed to

488
00:26:52,796 --> 00:26:55,516
Speaker 1: the Big Rid Machine, and there was all the kind

489
00:26:55,516 --> 00:27:01,236
Speaker 1: of like that collaborative process and energy continues to this day.

490
00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:04,156
Speaker 1: And so I would say, now, you know, she's about

491
00:27:04,156 --> 00:27:07,476
Speaker 1: to go on what will be the biggest tour in history,

492
00:27:07,756 --> 00:27:10,236
Speaker 1: you know, and it's just fair very much the same person.

493
00:27:10,436 --> 00:27:13,076
Speaker 1: You know. It's just even though she's like when I

494
00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:17,516
Speaker 1: see her in a quiet setting and she's like making

495
00:27:17,596 --> 00:27:20,876
Speaker 1: dinner or something, and the person that has to be,

496
00:27:21,556 --> 00:27:25,196
Speaker 1: you know, in the Spotlight. It's the same same persons.

497
00:27:25,236 --> 00:27:27,156
Speaker 1: I learn a lot from that. It's very I don't know,

498
00:27:27,276 --> 00:27:31,116
Speaker 1: just give me faith and people and and the way

499
00:27:31,156 --> 00:27:37,316
Speaker 1: she is kind and appreciative of all of her success.

500
00:27:37,316 --> 00:27:41,436
Speaker 1: And frankly, like when having worked with her, it's even

501
00:27:41,476 --> 00:27:45,156
Speaker 1: though she's has achieved so much, it's not that surprising

502
00:27:45,196 --> 00:27:46,716
Speaker 1: to me because I see how hard she works and

503
00:27:46,876 --> 00:27:51,036
Speaker 1: how talent talented she is. So I don't in that sense,

504
00:27:51,116 --> 00:27:55,396
Speaker 1: I do I find that really harmonious or something, But

505
00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:57,756
Speaker 1: I know what you mean. It's kind of like it's

506
00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:01,116
Speaker 1: a different feeling. And also I think that she's smart

507
00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:04,676
Speaker 1: the way that she evolves. And even like the music

508
00:28:04,756 --> 00:28:07,236
Speaker 1: we made for Midnight's like one of our I think

509
00:28:07,276 --> 00:28:09,196
Speaker 1: the best time I've ever written is called what Have,

510
00:28:09,236 --> 00:28:09,916
Speaker 1: could Have? Should Have?

511
00:28:10,436 --> 00:28:11,596
Speaker 3: How did that song come together?

512
00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:16,476
Speaker 1: I mean, the truth is that song. We wrote that

513
00:28:16,596 --> 00:28:21,356
Speaker 1: song together and recorded it while we were together in

514
00:28:21,476 --> 00:28:25,196
Speaker 1: LA for the Folklore Grammys, so that it goes back

515
00:28:25,236 --> 00:28:29,036
Speaker 1: that far. And then the same with high infidelity, and

516
00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:32,916
Speaker 1: those songs we actually recorded in her house the vocals

517
00:28:32,916 --> 00:28:36,596
Speaker 1: who recorded them then and I just kept making music,

518
00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:38,796
Speaker 1: and it was kind of like after we had made

519
00:28:39,116 --> 00:28:43,436
Speaker 1: Folklore and evermore, I started to have ideas which I

520
00:28:43,436 --> 00:28:47,956
Speaker 1: would share, and eventually she obviously made most of Midnights

521
00:28:47,956 --> 00:28:51,476
Speaker 1: with Jack and it became something different. But you know,

522
00:28:51,556 --> 00:28:54,396
Speaker 1: the you know, high in fidelity and would have, could have,

523
00:28:54,396 --> 00:28:56,716
Speaker 1: should have in the Great War, and we made hits

524
00:28:56,756 --> 00:28:59,396
Speaker 1: different with Jack and Taylor and I also, and it

525
00:28:59,516 --> 00:29:01,556
Speaker 1: was great to be a part of that record in

526
00:29:01,596 --> 00:29:02,956
Speaker 1: that way. It was really special.

527
00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:05,196
Speaker 3: Are you working on new music now?

528
00:29:06,236 --> 00:29:08,836
Speaker 1: I'm probably not at liberty to say, but I think

529
00:29:08,876 --> 00:29:11,676
Speaker 1: we Yeah, I mean I thought.

530
00:29:11,516 --> 00:29:12,076
Speaker 3: You would say that.

531
00:29:12,236 --> 00:29:14,676
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like once you.

532
00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:17,556
Speaker 3: Sounds like you're always sounds like you're always working. Yeah,

533
00:29:17,636 --> 00:29:18,956
Speaker 3: it's like she's slow.

534
00:29:19,316 --> 00:29:23,236
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a very she's a prolific songwriter and she

535
00:29:23,276 --> 00:29:26,876
Speaker 1: doesn't really stand still and and and I'm done either,

536
00:29:27,076 --> 00:29:29,996
Speaker 1: you know. So there's a nice there's just a nice

537
00:29:30,036 --> 00:29:34,276
Speaker 1: exchange of ideas that is ongoing.

538
00:29:34,876 --> 00:29:37,556
Speaker 3: Do you ever analyze that, like with with Taylor being

539
00:29:37,596 --> 00:29:41,156
Speaker 3: such a prolific songwriter or with you being so prolific

540
00:29:41,196 --> 00:29:44,996
Speaker 3: with the music that you write or whoever you're working with,

541
00:29:45,116 --> 00:29:50,156
Speaker 3: do you sit and analyze where these ideas come from.

542
00:29:48,956 --> 00:29:52,196
Speaker 1: A little bit? Yeah, Like I I've become aware that

543
00:29:53,596 --> 00:29:56,636
Speaker 1: it's for me, where the music comes, it feels like

544
00:29:56,716 --> 00:30:01,276
Speaker 1: it comes from inside. I originally feel like I became

545
00:30:01,396 --> 00:30:05,516
Speaker 1: very generative as a musician in terms of creating ideas

546
00:30:05,556 --> 00:30:08,836
Speaker 1: and sketches I call them, but they're basically songs without

547
00:30:08,876 --> 00:30:12,196
Speaker 1: word words. When I was a teenager and I was

548
00:30:12,236 --> 00:30:14,876
Speaker 1: sort of suffered, I was kind of had a very

549
00:30:14,916 --> 00:30:18,356
Speaker 1: depressive streak in my teenageyers like a lot of people do.

550
00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:21,156
Speaker 1: But music was this outlet and I always felt like

551
00:30:21,196 --> 00:30:26,916
Speaker 1: I was harvesting what was inside, this commotional ambiguity or

552
00:30:26,996 --> 00:30:31,796
Speaker 1: just joy and sadness coexisting inside of me. And it

553
00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:34,236
Speaker 1: was cathartic just to kind of like harvest it in

554
00:30:34,356 --> 00:30:37,916
Speaker 1: music and that you could make music which might really

555
00:30:37,956 --> 00:30:40,636
Speaker 1: express what you're feeling. And you know, that was always

556
00:30:40,676 --> 00:30:43,556
Speaker 1: what it was. It's how I make music. And sometimes

557
00:30:43,556 --> 00:30:46,276
Speaker 1: you feel like it rings you dry, like it can

558
00:30:46,356 --> 00:30:49,436
Speaker 1: kind of feel like you're ringing out a rag in

559
00:30:49,516 --> 00:30:52,316
Speaker 1: the water there's no more water left or something. Or

560
00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:55,916
Speaker 1: sometimes I feel a little bit like I don't have

561
00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:59,316
Speaker 1: anything left to give, But then it comes back and

562
00:30:59,356 --> 00:31:03,556
Speaker 1: it fills up again. And there's certain people that I

563
00:31:03,676 --> 00:31:07,716
Speaker 1: just click with in this very deep way, like Taylor,

564
00:31:07,796 --> 00:31:09,636
Speaker 1: which I had no idea would happen other did she,

565
00:31:09,796 --> 00:31:13,156
Speaker 1: but somehow she The music that I shared with hers

566
00:31:13,196 --> 00:31:16,996
Speaker 1: a Cardigan that sketch, which was something I had been writing,

567
00:31:17,876 --> 00:31:19,996
Speaker 1: was the first song that she wrote for Folklore to

568
00:31:20,116 --> 00:31:23,116
Speaker 1: music that I had shared, and it was and she

569
00:31:23,356 --> 00:31:25,596
Speaker 1: tells the story well that it felt like there were

570
00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:28,196
Speaker 1: images in it in the sound. There was like a

571
00:31:28,236 --> 00:31:30,556
Speaker 1: story in the sound that she was hearing, and she

572
00:31:30,676 --> 00:31:32,956
Speaker 1: was able and she you know, it's her story in

573
00:31:32,996 --> 00:31:36,636
Speaker 1: her words, but she felt like it was telling her something.

574
00:31:36,716 --> 00:31:39,036
Speaker 1: And Matt has said things like that as well, that

575
00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:42,076
Speaker 1: he feels like the music when he listens to it's

576
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:45,516
Speaker 1: like a soundtrack to a film that's already exists or something,

577
00:31:45,556 --> 00:31:49,036
Speaker 1: or story that is writing itself, or just some somehow

578
00:31:49,356 --> 00:31:52,196
Speaker 1: he's tapping into something. And I guess that's my feeling

579
00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:54,956
Speaker 1: is I try to write music that I can listen

580
00:31:54,996 --> 00:31:57,836
Speaker 1: to on its own and that feels like it's already

581
00:31:57,836 --> 00:32:02,636
Speaker 1: about something, even though I'm like, it's not entirely clear

582
00:32:02,636 --> 00:32:06,756
Speaker 1: what it's about, and then certain writers are able to

583
00:32:06,796 --> 00:32:10,036
Speaker 1: give it shape and substance, and I love that process.

584
00:32:10,356 --> 00:32:12,876
Speaker 1: It feels risky when you share it because you just

585
00:32:14,036 --> 00:32:17,916
Speaker 1: you like step over that Cliff of like, no matter

586
00:32:17,916 --> 00:32:20,156
Speaker 1: how many songs you've made it or how many people

587
00:32:20,156 --> 00:32:22,756
Speaker 1: you've worked with, it always feels vulnerable when you open

588
00:32:22,836 --> 00:32:26,276
Speaker 1: yourself up to someone because they might not hear anything

589
00:32:26,356 --> 00:32:29,836
Speaker 1: or click with anything. You know. So and in Taylor's case,

590
00:32:29,876 --> 00:32:34,276
Speaker 1: it felt really when she asked if I had anything

591
00:32:34,476 --> 00:32:37,956
Speaker 1: or if I would want to collaborate remotely, and I

592
00:32:37,996 --> 00:32:41,116
Speaker 1: had this whole folder of stuff I'd been working on intensely.

593
00:32:41,476 --> 00:32:42,356
Speaker 1: But before I said that.

594
00:32:42,356 --> 00:32:45,636
Speaker 3: Was your solo material, right to open for the bony Bear.

595
00:32:45,716 --> 00:32:48,156
Speaker 1: It was, yeah, a lot of it was or I

596
00:32:48,156 --> 00:32:50,476
Speaker 1: thought I didn't really know, but I thought it was

597
00:32:50,516 --> 00:32:52,756
Speaker 1: stuff I had been developing to try to figure out

598
00:32:52,796 --> 00:32:55,556
Speaker 1: what that was, you know. And she kind of said

599
00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:58,396
Speaker 1: in a really beautiful way, she said, it doesn't matter.

600
00:32:59,476 --> 00:33:01,236
Speaker 1: It could be the weirdest thing you've ever done. I

601
00:33:01,236 --> 00:33:02,876
Speaker 1: would love to hear it, or there could be the

602
00:33:02,916 --> 00:33:06,836
Speaker 1: most unstructured you know, but there's a moment of vulnerability

603
00:33:06,836 --> 00:33:09,356
Speaker 1: any time you open yourself up and share that way,

604
00:33:09,356 --> 00:33:12,956
Speaker 1: because I could have shared it and then never heard

605
00:33:12,956 --> 00:33:15,076
Speaker 1: anything again, you know, or it would have been like

606
00:33:15,316 --> 00:33:19,156
Speaker 1: and I feel that way still even with Matt, who

607
00:33:19,196 --> 00:33:22,076
Speaker 1: have written a million songs with. Yeah, it's like if

608
00:33:22,116 --> 00:33:24,916
Speaker 1: the thing I love most he doesn't click with it

609
00:33:25,036 --> 00:33:28,796
Speaker 1: still hurts, you know, or still feels still feels vulnerable.

610
00:33:28,716 --> 00:33:30,996
Speaker 3: Well you have to Jedi mind trick him into liking it.

611
00:33:31,636 --> 00:33:34,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. Again, Like that's elaborate, I do. I've

612
00:33:34,876 --> 00:33:36,956
Speaker 1: gotten pretty crafty about that too.

613
00:33:37,396 --> 00:33:40,436
Speaker 3: Yeah, that feels very much like a sibling relationship.

614
00:33:40,836 --> 00:33:44,716
Speaker 1: It is. Yeah, it's it's kind of like pretend to

615
00:33:44,756 --> 00:33:47,196
Speaker 1: care about the thing you actually don't care about, because

616
00:33:47,276 --> 00:33:49,756
Speaker 1: they'll increase the chances he goes for the one you

617
00:33:49,796 --> 00:33:50,876
Speaker 1: do care about. Whatever.

618
00:33:51,516 --> 00:33:54,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, I heard John Fraschante talking about something very similar.

619
00:33:55,036 --> 00:33:58,476
Speaker 3: When he brings ideas to the Chili Peppers, he'll just

620
00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:02,156
Speaker 3: be really like casual about it, Yeah, and act like

621
00:34:02,196 --> 00:34:05,236
Speaker 3: he's not completely in love with it and attached to it.

622
00:34:05,756 --> 00:34:08,716
Speaker 3: And the more casual it is, the more likely Anthony

623
00:34:08,756 --> 00:34:10,716
Speaker 3: and Flea are to just, you know, sort of like

624
00:34:10,756 --> 00:34:11,956
Speaker 3: take it on and try it out.

625
00:34:12,276 --> 00:34:16,596
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah, that's it. Bands are these It's like

626
00:34:16,676 --> 00:34:20,676
Speaker 1: being in a in a intimately an intimate but platonic

627
00:34:20,796 --> 00:34:25,796
Speaker 1: relationship with multiple people simultaneously, and you're just like trying

628
00:34:25,836 --> 00:34:28,556
Speaker 1: to navigate that.

629
00:34:28,356 --> 00:34:31,956
Speaker 3: Right in the national are there like clicks like when

630
00:34:31,956 --> 00:34:34,076
Speaker 3: you guys were on tour, like who hangs out with who?

631
00:34:34,956 --> 00:34:38,636
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's elaborate. Like somebody asked me recently. I

632
00:34:38,636 --> 00:34:40,436
Speaker 1: can't remember who it was, but we were going to

633
00:34:40,476 --> 00:34:43,076
Speaker 1: be in New York and they're like, oh, like, maybe

634
00:34:43,076 --> 00:34:44,436
Speaker 1: we can hang out, but I wouldn't want to take

635
00:34:44,436 --> 00:34:46,636
Speaker 1: you away from your bandmates. And I was like, oh, like,

636
00:34:46,676 --> 00:34:49,916
Speaker 1: we haven't hung out in like fifteen years or something.

637
00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:53,276
Speaker 1: Don't worry. But no, there are there are these clicks

638
00:34:53,316 --> 00:34:56,316
Speaker 1: where it's like we joke. There's the Running Club, which

639
00:34:56,356 --> 00:35:00,036
Speaker 1: is my brother and I and Ben Lands and Kyle

640
00:35:00,116 --> 00:35:03,836
Speaker 1: Resnick who played trumpet and trombone or interesting lovely people,

641
00:35:03,916 --> 00:35:06,876
Speaker 1: and we all really hang out. It's like the we

642
00:35:06,956 --> 00:35:09,036
Speaker 1: go running and then we'll go to dinner, whereas Matt

643
00:35:09,196 --> 00:35:11,596
Speaker 1: and Scott and Brian kind of keep They kind of

644
00:35:12,356 --> 00:35:15,316
Speaker 1: do their own thing and have their own Scott hangs

645
00:35:15,316 --> 00:35:18,316
Speaker 1: out actually with he it's funny. He's he's really close

646
00:35:18,356 --> 00:35:20,476
Speaker 1: with all the crew and he's kind of the most likable,

647
00:35:21,116 --> 00:35:24,996
Speaker 1: likable member of the band. And Matt is very solitary

648
00:35:25,076 --> 00:35:27,596
Speaker 1: because he kind of needs to he needs space and

649
00:35:27,636 --> 00:35:29,796
Speaker 1: also to rest, so he kind of you hardly see

650
00:35:29,836 --> 00:35:32,156
Speaker 1: him unless he's on stage, which is funny. And then

651
00:35:32,396 --> 00:35:35,956
Speaker 1: Brian is just he's wonderful. He kind of like sets

652
00:35:36,036 --> 00:35:38,556
Speaker 1: up a gym and like works out and relaxes all

653
00:35:38,676 --> 00:35:41,836
Speaker 1: day long and and has his own vibe too. But

654
00:35:42,356 --> 00:35:44,476
Speaker 1: it is bands are I don't know, bands, especially the

655
00:35:44,476 --> 00:35:48,356
Speaker 1: eight like the band that's the twenty where I think

656
00:35:48,356 --> 00:35:51,436
Speaker 1: it's the twenty fourth year of the band. Now. It's

657
00:35:51,476 --> 00:35:54,636
Speaker 1: just like it's the weirdest thing. You know. People that

658
00:35:54,716 --> 00:35:57,276
Speaker 1: come right, they're just like, what is going on?

659
00:35:58,076 --> 00:36:00,236
Speaker 3: And especially the age that you got together in the

660
00:36:00,276 --> 00:36:04,076
Speaker 3: age everyone is now, there's so much evolution, personal evolution

661
00:36:04,196 --> 00:36:07,396
Speaker 3: that happens during that period of time. Yeah, when you're

662
00:36:07,436 --> 00:36:10,476
Speaker 3: sort of like separating from from being a kid and

663
00:36:10,516 --> 00:36:12,996
Speaker 3: being with your parents, you're out on your own and

664
00:36:13,036 --> 00:36:14,676
Speaker 3: then starting your own families.

665
00:36:15,396 --> 00:36:18,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone, It's true. Everyone has We kind of like

666
00:36:18,636 --> 00:36:22,196
Speaker 1: have had all the wreckage. Not all the wreckage fortunately,

667
00:36:22,236 --> 00:36:25,396
Speaker 1: but a lot of the wreckage that comes with the

668
00:36:25,476 --> 00:36:30,276
Speaker 1: territory of rock and roll and just you know, fortunately

669
00:36:30,276 --> 00:36:32,876
Speaker 1: none of the terrible nothing too terrible, but it's like

670
00:36:34,116 --> 00:36:38,916
Speaker 1: we've all had our moments of struggling and then coming

671
00:36:38,956 --> 00:36:41,876
Speaker 1: through it. Yeah, and everyone's been there for each other,

672
00:36:41,916 --> 00:36:45,356
Speaker 1: so that there's a warm feeling to that, but there's

673
00:36:45,396 --> 00:36:47,796
Speaker 1: also a recognition that you don't have to always be

674
00:36:47,796 --> 00:36:50,276
Speaker 1: best friends, you know, and you don't have to hang

675
00:36:50,316 --> 00:36:52,556
Speaker 1: out when you're not on tour, but that were there

676
00:36:52,716 --> 00:36:54,836
Speaker 1: and it is like a family, and some of us

677
00:36:55,396 --> 00:36:59,476
Speaker 1: spend more time together than others, and it goes way back,

678
00:36:59,516 --> 00:37:01,836
Speaker 1: so there's still like Brian and I were in the

679
00:37:01,836 --> 00:37:05,356
Speaker 1: middle same middle school advisor class when we were thirteen

680
00:37:05,396 --> 00:37:07,916
Speaker 1: and fourteen, and we were on the middle school basketball

681
00:37:07,916 --> 00:37:11,596
Speaker 1: team together with Bryce, and that familiarity and that closeness

682
00:37:11,676 --> 00:37:15,996
Speaker 1: is wonderful when you're in Tokyo in to twenty twenty three,

683
00:37:16,236 --> 00:37:18,916
Speaker 1: and or when you're like terrified because you're about to

684
00:37:18,956 --> 00:37:21,916
Speaker 1: go on stage before the biggest crowd you've ever played

685
00:37:22,556 --> 00:37:25,716
Speaker 1: in front of and Lisbon in twenty twenty two and

686
00:37:25,876 --> 00:37:28,596
Speaker 1: there's whatever it is, one hundred thousand people out there

687
00:37:28,836 --> 00:37:31,316
Speaker 1: at the festival, and you know that it's the person

688
00:37:31,356 --> 00:37:34,236
Speaker 1: that you were like passing the basketball to when you're thirteen.

689
00:37:34,676 --> 00:37:38,036
Speaker 1: It's like this, there is this feeling of like, well,

690
00:37:38,036 --> 00:37:41,636
Speaker 1: it doesn't actually matter if we fuck this up, because

691
00:37:41,876 --> 00:37:44,796
Speaker 1: there's always going to be another day, and you know,

692
00:37:44,916 --> 00:37:46,956
Speaker 1: it does feel like that, But we joke a lot.

693
00:37:47,076 --> 00:37:49,156
Speaker 1: Now I'm like, well, this is like a pretty good

694
00:37:49,236 --> 00:37:53,156
Speaker 1: song for the late period of the band. It feels

695
00:37:53,196 --> 00:37:55,636
Speaker 1: like a high water mark of the late period. Or

696
00:37:55,676 --> 00:37:58,276
Speaker 1: I'm like, where we joke about older songs, We're like,

697
00:37:58,316 --> 00:37:59,916
Speaker 1: that was kind of a miss. You know.

698
00:38:00,196 --> 00:38:02,276
Speaker 3: Do you imagine you all will still be together when

699
00:38:02,356 --> 00:38:04,916
Speaker 3: you're in your seventies and eighties, still playing.

700
00:38:05,236 --> 00:38:08,316
Speaker 1: It is a funny thing to think about because sometimes

701
00:38:08,476 --> 00:38:10,716
Speaker 1: like I'm going to bank it's so ridiculous, you know,

702
00:38:10,836 --> 00:38:13,276
Speaker 1: but I think we will. Actually, I think it's like

703
00:38:13,996 --> 00:38:19,836
Speaker 1: the songs don't get tired, and it is interesting. I

704
00:38:19,916 --> 00:38:21,756
Speaker 1: think I'll play music my whole life, and I would

705
00:38:21,756 --> 00:38:25,076
Speaker 1: want to play music with my brother and with these guys,

706
00:38:25,156 --> 00:38:27,396
Speaker 1: and it can evolve in this record that we made.

707
00:38:27,436 --> 00:38:30,796
Speaker 1: It really feels it just feels really inspired. And you

708
00:38:30,796 --> 00:38:34,996
Speaker 1: can hear the ferocity that we're capable of and the subtlety,

709
00:38:36,156 --> 00:38:40,436
Speaker 1: and you can hear the improvisation and the composition and

710
00:38:40,476 --> 00:38:44,636
Speaker 1: the accidental kind of magic that sometimes happens all alongside

711
00:38:44,676 --> 00:38:47,676
Speaker 1: each other, and that just feels really refreshing to me.

712
00:38:47,956 --> 00:38:49,796
Speaker 1: Like how to like it would be hard to do that,

713
00:38:50,156 --> 00:38:53,116
Speaker 1: to make that, but we did. It's kind of scary

714
00:38:53,156 --> 00:38:55,036
Speaker 1: to think about trying to do it again, but like

715
00:38:55,636 --> 00:38:57,796
Speaker 1: that's always what happens, is like you make something and

716
00:38:57,836 --> 00:38:59,796
Speaker 1: you're like oh, and you kind of fall in love

717
00:38:59,836 --> 00:39:01,236
Speaker 1: with it, but then you're like, oh shit, and now

718
00:39:01,316 --> 00:39:04,116
Speaker 1: I have to try to like what's next? You know. Anyways,

719
00:39:04,396 --> 00:39:06,596
Speaker 1: I feel very grateful for it right now.

720
00:39:06,956 --> 00:39:09,476
Speaker 3: What do you think you would have thought if you were,

721
00:39:09,796 --> 00:39:12,436
Speaker 3: let's say, like twenty years old seeing your life now,

722
00:39:13,236 --> 00:39:15,716
Speaker 3: how do you think you would think of yourself as

723
00:39:15,996 --> 00:39:18,596
Speaker 3: like someone who is approaching middle age?

724
00:39:19,796 --> 00:39:24,396
Speaker 1: It is crazy sometimes to reflect on how you end

725
00:39:24,476 --> 00:39:27,236
Speaker 1: up where you end up and why your life takes

726
00:39:27,276 --> 00:39:30,156
Speaker 1: the shape that it does. And mine has changed dramatically

727
00:39:30,236 --> 00:39:33,516
Speaker 1: in the last few years, just all the work that

728
00:39:33,556 --> 00:39:36,316
Speaker 1: I've been doing and music I've been making, and it's

729
00:39:36,396 --> 00:39:39,316
Speaker 1: kind of like I know that I worked up to

730
00:39:39,396 --> 00:39:42,636
Speaker 1: it and that I can back it up with experience

731
00:39:42,716 --> 00:39:46,516
Speaker 1: and all the hard work and knowledge. You know. It's

732
00:39:46,556 --> 00:39:49,516
Speaker 1: like I don't feel out of my depth, really, but

733
00:39:49,556 --> 00:39:53,556
Speaker 1: it still feels like there's a big element of luck.

734
00:39:53,956 --> 00:39:57,956
Speaker 1: And I know so many really talented people, equally deserving,

735
00:39:58,276 --> 00:40:02,276
Speaker 1: equally hardworking that maybe haven't had the same level of

736
00:40:02,876 --> 00:40:06,316
Speaker 1: success or exposure. And so there's an element of like

737
00:40:06,436 --> 00:40:10,236
Speaker 1: music and the entertainment industry in general that I think

738
00:40:10,316 --> 00:40:14,756
Speaker 1: is kind of haphazard or kind of it lacks structure

739
00:40:14,796 --> 00:40:19,276
Speaker 1: and it's dependent on I mean, I guess hard work

740
00:40:19,276 --> 00:40:23,036
Speaker 1: and persistence equals luck basically, is what I've come to realize.

741
00:40:23,116 --> 00:40:25,756
Speaker 1: And so with my twenty year old self, I think

742
00:40:25,756 --> 00:40:27,556
Speaker 1: I had my nose to the ground and I was

743
00:40:27,676 --> 00:40:31,996
Speaker 1: just maybe we were raised in a way too. There

744
00:40:31,996 --> 00:40:35,556
Speaker 1: were high expectations or pressure on us from early age

745
00:40:35,636 --> 00:40:39,236
Speaker 1: because my dad, I don't know, because of his childhood

746
00:40:39,316 --> 00:40:41,996
Speaker 1: or something. He didn't have much opportunity growing up. He

747
00:40:42,116 --> 00:40:45,196
Speaker 1: was a child of immigrants, growing up in Brooklyn and

748
00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:48,636
Speaker 1: Queens and sharing a room with his three brothers, and

749
00:40:48,716 --> 00:40:51,956
Speaker 1: just like he wanted us to achieve a lot, you know,

750
00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:54,396
Speaker 1: and he put a lot of pressure on us, and

751
00:40:54,436 --> 00:40:57,836
Speaker 1: it was kind of like it was difficult. I remember

752
00:40:57,836 --> 00:41:01,716
Speaker 1: feeling like kind of like that he always expected us

753
00:41:01,756 --> 00:41:05,916
Speaker 1: to get like perfect grades and be great at everything

754
00:41:05,956 --> 00:41:08,636
Speaker 1: we would do. But in a I guess in a

755
00:41:08,676 --> 00:41:12,236
Speaker 1: positive since it created a lot of I became very

756
00:41:12,316 --> 00:41:15,276
Speaker 1: hard working and I didn't ever think I was very

757
00:41:15,276 --> 00:41:19,796
Speaker 1: good at anything because and it caused me to keep pushing.

758
00:41:20,676 --> 00:41:22,596
Speaker 1: It's only been recently that I've been able to be like, wow,

759
00:41:22,636 --> 00:41:25,676
Speaker 1: this is kind of I guess we And it happened

760
00:41:25,676 --> 00:41:27,836
Speaker 1: gradually every time you like end up on some big

761
00:41:27,876 --> 00:41:30,396
Speaker 1: stage with the national looking out and people like there's

762
00:41:30,436 --> 00:41:32,916
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of people singing these songs, and you

763
00:41:32,916 --> 00:41:36,636
Speaker 1: have these moments of like, wow, this is I got

764
00:41:36,636 --> 00:41:39,796
Speaker 1: somewhere you know this is and this is interesting. But

765
00:41:39,876 --> 00:41:44,316
Speaker 1: I still my attitude is still not to hold that

766
00:41:44,356 --> 00:41:48,756
Speaker 1: too close because your successes and your failures you just

767
00:41:48,796 --> 00:41:51,916
Speaker 1: coexist with all of it, and or like your your

768
00:41:52,636 --> 00:41:55,596
Speaker 1: the criticism you receive and the plaudits you receive, you

769
00:41:55,636 --> 00:41:57,276
Speaker 1: have to kind of take the good with the bad.

770
00:41:57,356 --> 00:42:00,716
Speaker 1: And for every time that you're lifted up by something,

771
00:42:00,796 --> 00:42:04,036
Speaker 1: you're also you're gonna flail, you know, the day next

772
00:42:04,116 --> 00:42:07,516
Speaker 1: day or be pulled down. I don't know, but I

773
00:42:07,756 --> 00:42:08,756
Speaker 1: do feel really lucky.

774
00:42:10,316 --> 00:42:12,916
Speaker 2: We'll be back after another quick break with more from

775
00:42:12,996 --> 00:42:20,476
Speaker 2: Leo Rose and Aaron Desner. We're back with the rest

776
00:42:20,476 --> 00:42:23,556
Speaker 2: of Leo Rose's conversation with Aaron Desner.

777
00:42:24,956 --> 00:42:27,516
Speaker 3: How did you first find music and how how did

778
00:42:27,556 --> 00:42:31,516
Speaker 3: you first find that you could articulate your feelings through music.

779
00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:36,316
Speaker 1: Yeah. So my dad was a really amazing drummer, and

780
00:42:36,396 --> 00:42:40,916
Speaker 1: he had this incredible teacher in Queen's in the early

781
00:42:40,996 --> 00:42:44,596
Speaker 1: six year like late fifties, early sixties, and then he

782
00:42:44,636 --> 00:42:47,676
Speaker 1: played a lot of like serious jazz in the sixties

783
00:42:48,116 --> 00:42:51,236
Speaker 1: in New York. And then he moved to Cincinnati and

784
00:42:51,276 --> 00:42:53,596
Speaker 1: my mom and him got married and he kind of

785
00:42:53,836 --> 00:42:56,396
Speaker 1: had to get a real job, quote unquote real job

786
00:42:56,436 --> 00:42:59,716
Speaker 1: to support us. And we found his drums in the

787
00:42:59,716 --> 00:43:02,516
Speaker 1: closet when we were I think we were six years old,

788
00:43:02,796 --> 00:43:05,116
Speaker 1: my brother and I in this We found it in

789
00:43:05,116 --> 00:43:07,236
Speaker 1: the furnace room and kind of like pulled them out

790
00:43:07,276 --> 00:43:08,636
Speaker 1: and he came home from work and we were like

791
00:43:08,636 --> 00:43:11,996
Speaker 1: what are they? And I remember he was excited. He

792
00:43:12,036 --> 00:43:14,516
Speaker 1: kind of was smiled, and he set them up and

793
00:43:14,556 --> 00:43:16,516
Speaker 1: the basement he sat down to play, and it was like,

794
00:43:16,716 --> 00:43:20,156
Speaker 1: holy shit, it was amazing. It was amazing, you know,

795
00:43:20,196 --> 00:43:21,116
Speaker 1: and we had no idea.

796
00:43:21,196 --> 00:43:23,036
Speaker 3: Yeah, style, like what style drummer was?

797
00:43:23,076 --> 00:43:27,916
Speaker 1: He like old school? You know, he held the drumsticks

798
00:43:27,956 --> 00:43:31,116
Speaker 1: with the old grip and like incredible rudiments and just

799
00:43:31,356 --> 00:43:35,196
Speaker 1: really really excellent drummer. And then we just immediate, I

800
00:43:35,236 --> 00:43:39,236
Speaker 1: started taking drum lessons, and gradually we started playing guitar

801
00:43:39,636 --> 00:43:42,636
Speaker 1: and bass, and it was early like that I started

802
00:43:42,676 --> 00:43:45,876
Speaker 1: to feel that I could. It came very naturally to us,

803
00:43:45,916 --> 00:43:52,076
Speaker 1: and we became prolific technically quickly, fairly quickly, and started

804
00:43:52,076 --> 00:43:55,436
Speaker 1: to just I remember just writing stuff from the very beginning,

805
00:43:55,516 --> 00:43:58,796
Speaker 1: like when we were eleven, twelve, thirteen years old, and

806
00:43:58,916 --> 00:44:02,436
Speaker 1: just and my brother started, you know, started saying classical guitar.

807
00:44:03,396 --> 00:44:05,356
Speaker 1: We just got really into it. And it's natural the

808
00:44:05,476 --> 00:44:09,556
Speaker 1: competitiveness of twin brothers who we should at a room

809
00:44:09,596 --> 00:44:11,796
Speaker 1: until we were eighteen and were literally staring at each

810
00:44:11,796 --> 00:44:14,956
Speaker 1: other and we just egged each other on. So early

811
00:44:14,996 --> 00:44:18,836
Speaker 1: on I kind of went towards songwriting and my way

812
00:44:18,876 --> 00:44:22,876
Speaker 1: of doing things, and he went towards like classical technique

813
00:44:22,916 --> 00:44:28,356
Speaker 1: and composition. But we would play together. And then I

814
00:44:28,756 --> 00:44:31,476
Speaker 1: when I was sixteen, night, all of a sudden, it

815
00:44:31,516 --> 00:44:34,676
Speaker 1: was like a hit by a truck, not an actual truck,

816
00:44:34,716 --> 00:44:37,276
Speaker 1: but an emotional truck. Of like, I just got really

817
00:44:37,316 --> 00:44:40,956
Speaker 1: depressed for seemingly no reason and kind of had all

818
00:44:40,956 --> 00:44:44,476
Speaker 1: the clinical signs of depression and music was the only

819
00:44:44,556 --> 00:44:47,236
Speaker 1: thing that I felt like doing, so I used to

820
00:44:47,236 --> 00:44:49,796
Speaker 1: sneak out of the house because we didn't have a piano.

821
00:44:49,836 --> 00:44:52,116
Speaker 1: I would sneak out of the house and break into

822
00:44:52,156 --> 00:44:54,916
Speaker 1: the school which was like a mile away and play

823
00:44:54,956 --> 00:44:58,836
Speaker 1: the and play the piano like at night, Yeah, on

824
00:44:58,876 --> 00:45:00,996
Speaker 1: the weekend at night. Yeah. It was kind of a

825
00:45:01,036 --> 00:45:03,236
Speaker 1: little it was a little creepy or a little bit like,

826
00:45:03,556 --> 00:45:06,636
Speaker 1: what's what am I doing? Where then I was discovered

827
00:45:06,636 --> 00:45:09,556
Speaker 1: and it became this worrisome thing and I kind of

828
00:45:09,596 --> 00:45:12,836
Speaker 1: had I fell behind in school because I was depressed.

829
00:45:12,836 --> 00:45:15,316
Speaker 1: But I was sort of like rapidly growing as a

830
00:45:15,356 --> 00:45:20,156
Speaker 1: musician at that time and teaching myself to play the piano,

831
00:45:20,196 --> 00:45:21,996
Speaker 1: and that's kind of like where my way of playing

832
00:45:22,036 --> 00:45:24,196
Speaker 1: the piano comes from and where I really started to

833
00:45:24,316 --> 00:45:29,396
Speaker 1: harvest emotion into these into what I was playing. So

834
00:45:29,396 --> 00:45:31,916
Speaker 1: that's really I think it was like sixteen seventeen where

835
00:45:31,916 --> 00:45:35,236
Speaker 1: I really felt like this is an emotional outlet and

836
00:45:35,676 --> 00:45:37,116
Speaker 1: it's always been that way since then.

837
00:45:38,316 --> 00:45:40,876
Speaker 3: How did it affect your relationship with your brother when

838
00:45:40,916 --> 00:45:42,596
Speaker 3: you started to get depressed.

839
00:45:43,316 --> 00:45:46,796
Speaker 1: It was intense because it was he didn't feel that,

840
00:45:46,876 --> 00:45:48,676
Speaker 1: and he also, I think felt that he had to

841
00:45:48,716 --> 00:45:52,516
Speaker 1: hold me because we were close and he could see,

842
00:45:52,676 --> 00:45:54,556
Speaker 1: and it got a little scary for a while, where

843
00:45:54,596 --> 00:45:58,716
Speaker 1: it seemed like I was maybe suicidal or just had

844
00:45:58,756 --> 00:46:03,156
Speaker 1: lost hope or just just really not functioning, and also

845
00:46:03,196 --> 00:46:06,836
Speaker 1: in the pressure cooker of like I was not doing

846
00:46:06,876 --> 00:46:10,196
Speaker 1: any of my work and not really showing up for school,

847
00:46:10,276 --> 00:46:13,476
Speaker 1: and he kind of showed up. He was writing my

848
00:46:13,636 --> 00:46:16,116
Speaker 1: papers and he was doing my homework and he was

849
00:46:16,156 --> 00:46:18,916
Speaker 1: literally like holding me for the It was took sort

850
00:46:18,916 --> 00:46:23,356
Speaker 1: of a year till I was out of it, but

851
00:46:23,556 --> 00:46:27,796
Speaker 1: that relationship sort of persisted for a long time of

852
00:46:27,836 --> 00:46:31,396
Speaker 1: me being the one who was maybe struggling in him

853
00:46:31,436 --> 00:46:36,276
Speaker 1: being stronger and more together. But weirdly now eventually it

854
00:46:36,396 --> 00:46:40,156
Speaker 1: sort of evened out. And apparently it's typical with twins

855
00:46:40,756 --> 00:46:45,036
Speaker 1: at some point there can be this kind of imbalance

856
00:46:45,196 --> 00:46:48,636
Speaker 1: or you know, something like that can happen. But he

857
00:46:48,716 --> 00:46:49,916
Speaker 1: it was I think it was hard for him. It

858
00:46:49,956 --> 00:46:52,996
Speaker 1: was a little scary, but he really showed up and

859
00:46:53,836 --> 00:46:58,556
Speaker 1: it allowed him to care for me, which was powerful,

860
00:46:58,716 --> 00:47:01,916
Speaker 1: and it allowed our music. It did feel like that's

861
00:47:01,956 --> 00:47:07,116
Speaker 1: when music became something more. Because I used to think

862
00:47:07,156 --> 00:47:10,276
Speaker 1: I would be like a great athlete or something or

863
00:47:10,316 --> 00:47:12,676
Speaker 1: that that I was really into sports, and I thought

864
00:47:12,916 --> 00:47:15,876
Speaker 1: you know, I was so focused on that, and music

865
00:47:15,996 --> 00:47:18,116
Speaker 1: was just something we did since we were little kids

866
00:47:18,116 --> 00:47:19,956
Speaker 1: that were happened to be good at you know, but

867
00:47:19,996 --> 00:47:22,396
Speaker 1: I didn't think it. I didn't think much that I

868
00:47:22,396 --> 00:47:24,956
Speaker 1: would be a musician. But it was like when I

869
00:47:24,996 --> 00:47:27,996
Speaker 1: got depressed and it suddenly was this, I had this

870
00:47:28,116 --> 00:47:31,476
Speaker 1: emotional need to like pour myself into it. It just

871
00:47:31,596 --> 00:47:32,716
Speaker 1: kind of became who I was.

872
00:47:32,916 --> 00:47:36,916
Speaker 3: You know, when did you form your first band? Was

873
00:47:36,956 --> 00:47:38,076
Speaker 3: it before college?

874
00:47:38,636 --> 00:47:41,476
Speaker 1: It was yet like when we were in freshman in

875
00:47:41,556 --> 00:47:43,636
Speaker 1: high school, we formed a band with the drummer of

876
00:47:43,676 --> 00:47:45,836
Speaker 1: the National with Brian Sos, Bryce, Brian, and I and

877
00:47:45,916 --> 00:47:49,756
Speaker 1: we called ourselves Equinox. It's just a terrible name, but

878
00:47:49,996 --> 00:47:52,956
Speaker 1: and like you know, with the gym, yeah, there wasn't

879
00:47:52,956 --> 00:47:56,516
Speaker 1: didn't exist then, but this was like nineteen ninety. But

880
00:47:56,636 --> 00:48:01,116
Speaker 1: we we would play at the parties when there was

881
00:48:01,156 --> 00:48:03,636
Speaker 1: a lot of drugs and like just weed and acid

882
00:48:03,676 --> 00:48:05,716
Speaker 1: and stuff at the high school parties and also at

883
00:48:05,796 --> 00:48:08,596
Speaker 1: least a lot of like a lot of kids using

884
00:48:08,676 --> 00:48:12,276
Speaker 1: stuff fotball players like on steroids and just like aggressive

885
00:48:12,836 --> 00:48:16,236
Speaker 1: wow people. So like we kind of hid behind our

886
00:48:16,276 --> 00:48:19,796
Speaker 1: instruments in a corner just playing like yeah, just jamming

887
00:48:19,836 --> 00:48:21,356
Speaker 1: and it was really fun and we got really good

888
00:48:21,356 --> 00:48:24,796
Speaker 1: at it, and like, there's actually some recordings from that

889
00:48:24,916 --> 00:48:29,516
Speaker 1: time of us playing in somebody's barn or somebody's attic

890
00:48:29,676 --> 00:48:33,316
Speaker 1: or you know, somebody's patio and we would just play

891
00:48:33,356 --> 00:48:35,836
Speaker 1: songs we had written, but also like Grateful Dead, and

892
00:48:35,916 --> 00:48:37,556
Speaker 1: we had so much We had so much fun, but

893
00:48:37,596 --> 00:48:39,476
Speaker 1: it was also kind of a way not to interact

894
00:48:39,476 --> 00:48:41,276
Speaker 1: with anyone. Totally.

895
00:48:41,436 --> 00:48:44,116
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I totally get that. Did you guys

896
00:48:44,116 --> 00:48:45,316
Speaker 3: sound like the National at all?

897
00:48:45,876 --> 00:48:48,916
Speaker 1: Well? I wouldn't say we sounded like the National, although

898
00:48:49,836 --> 00:48:54,876
Speaker 1: even back then there probably was this chemistry of like

899
00:48:54,956 --> 00:48:57,916
Speaker 1: how my brother and I play together and harmonize with

900
00:48:57,956 --> 00:49:00,596
Speaker 1: each other and sort of like the patterns or the

901
00:49:00,636 --> 00:49:05,636
Speaker 1: circular details. And Brian was already a great drummer at

902
00:49:05,636 --> 00:49:08,716
Speaker 1: that age and so probably in a way. But no,

903
00:49:08,956 --> 00:49:12,796
Speaker 1: like I think that that sound took a while to

904
00:49:12,996 --> 00:49:15,036
Speaker 1: develop into what it is, and it was sort of

905
00:49:15,236 --> 00:49:17,676
Speaker 1: around Alligator where you started to I feel like you

906
00:49:17,676 --> 00:49:21,316
Speaker 1: can really recognize, like, Okay, that's that's how they sound,

907
00:49:21,356 --> 00:49:25,076
Speaker 1: and then it's obviously developed. But yeah, we were probably

908
00:49:26,196 --> 00:49:29,996
Speaker 1: more like the Grateful Dead or attempting to be back then.

909
00:49:31,076 --> 00:49:34,316
Speaker 3: You mentioned earlier you were talking about when you were

910
00:49:34,316 --> 00:49:37,596
Speaker 3: putting together the songs that would eventually become the new

911
00:49:37,676 --> 00:49:42,236
Speaker 3: National album, an emotional framework started to become a parent.

912
00:49:43,036 --> 00:49:46,396
Speaker 3: How would you describe what that emotional framework was, what

913
00:49:46,476 --> 00:49:50,316
Speaker 3: it felt like, and when was that apparent to you.

914
00:49:51,356 --> 00:49:53,516
Speaker 1: So there was this like at some point I, after

915
00:49:53,836 --> 00:49:56,836
Speaker 1: having time away from the band and having made all

916
00:49:56,836 --> 00:50:00,716
Speaker 1: this other music, I started to hear ideas were coming

917
00:50:00,716 --> 00:50:03,716
Speaker 1: where it was like, oh, this is a National song,

918
00:50:03,876 --> 00:50:06,156
Speaker 1: and then shared them with Matt, And there was this

919
00:50:06,276 --> 00:50:12,356
Speaker 1: initial get together in April I think of twenty twenty

920
00:50:12,396 --> 00:50:17,716
Speaker 1: one where we got together and we just everyone bounced

921
00:50:17,756 --> 00:50:20,196
Speaker 1: off all these initial ideas that I had and some

922
00:50:20,356 --> 00:50:23,556
Speaker 1: that my brother had, and Matt wrote a lot to those,

923
00:50:23,596 --> 00:50:28,076
Speaker 1: and it felt very exciting and like there was this

924
00:50:28,316 --> 00:50:31,036
Speaker 1: energy like oh, they felt like, oh, we're coming back

925
00:50:31,116 --> 00:50:35,716
Speaker 1: to this. But after that, Matt sort of hit a

926
00:50:35,756 --> 00:50:40,236
Speaker 1: wall emotionally and with writer's buck and he just really

927
00:50:40,356 --> 00:50:43,396
Speaker 1: couldn't finish anything or write anything else for almost a year.

928
00:50:43,756 --> 00:50:48,276
Speaker 1: After that, he just went totally blank and kind of

929
00:50:48,756 --> 00:50:53,236
Speaker 1: lost himself. And it felt like but we could all

930
00:50:53,316 --> 00:50:56,836
Speaker 1: listen to those early sketches in that initial time which

931
00:50:56,836 --> 00:51:00,076
Speaker 1: were sort of half finished songs, but we could hear

932
00:51:00,716 --> 00:51:05,476
Speaker 1: in those ideas a vulnerability and a directness in what

933
00:51:05,636 --> 00:51:08,876
Speaker 1: he was singing that felt it felt like a weird

934
00:51:09,116 --> 00:51:12,996
Speaker 1: sinuation of Boxer or that era of the national and

935
00:51:13,036 --> 00:51:18,236
Speaker 1: the musically, it felt like it was in a special

936
00:51:18,316 --> 00:51:21,196
Speaker 1: place and in a place that we could push. So

937
00:51:21,236 --> 00:51:25,236
Speaker 1: we all remained hopeful. But it wasn't until a year

938
00:51:25,356 --> 00:51:29,476
Speaker 1: later when we gathered again because we needed to, that

939
00:51:29,476 --> 00:51:31,916
Speaker 1: we had that there started to be a breakthrough where

940
00:51:32,516 --> 00:51:36,476
Speaker 1: he wrote things like once upon a Pool Side and

941
00:51:37,596 --> 00:51:40,156
Speaker 1: your Mind Is Not Your Friend and Send for Me,

942
00:51:40,156 --> 00:51:44,196
Speaker 1: and these very emotional songs that clearly relate to someone

943
00:51:44,236 --> 00:51:48,676
Speaker 1: who is struggling emotionally and wondering if they're going to

944
00:51:48,756 --> 00:51:51,796
Speaker 1: get to the other side, and contemplating the end of

945
00:51:52,596 --> 00:51:56,436
Speaker 1: relationships and sort of what was the worried thing you

946
00:51:56,476 --> 00:51:58,996
Speaker 1: said to me? And I thought we could get through anything?

947
00:51:59,116 --> 00:52:03,436
Speaker 1: And or I keep what I can of you this

948
00:52:03,516 --> 00:52:05,796
Speaker 1: emotional frame, it's like to me, it's like an emotional

949
00:52:05,796 --> 00:52:10,556
Speaker 1: framework of wanting to hold on to people that you

950
00:52:11,116 --> 00:52:14,676
Speaker 1: know and love, but like somehow these structures and these

951
00:52:14,756 --> 00:52:20,076
Speaker 1: relationships keep keep dissolving, or you know, nothing's helping somehow,

952
00:52:20,356 --> 00:52:23,596
Speaker 1: whether it's the band, whether we're talking about ourselves. You know,

953
00:52:24,156 --> 00:52:25,876
Speaker 1: time to you know, he says, time to take my

954
00:52:25,956 --> 00:52:29,356
Speaker 1: silent treatment. It won't be the first. And to me,

955
00:52:29,476 --> 00:52:33,316
Speaker 1: that's like this acknowledgment that of that we all you know,

956
00:52:33,356 --> 00:52:36,876
Speaker 1: I've hurt people, He's hurt people. We hurt each other

957
00:52:36,956 --> 00:52:40,236
Speaker 1: in the band sometimes, and it's like kind of trying

958
00:52:40,276 --> 00:52:43,596
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that and move on and I love each other.

959
00:52:43,636 --> 00:52:46,396
Speaker 1: This is my interpretation. I'm not even sure that's You

960
00:52:46,396 --> 00:52:46,916
Speaker 1: ever ask.

961
00:52:46,876 --> 00:52:50,476
Speaker 3: Him directly about a lyric that you might think he's

962
00:52:50,516 --> 00:52:52,396
Speaker 3: like intending to say something about the band? Do you

963
00:52:52,476 --> 00:52:54,996
Speaker 3: ever ask him? Is that about us?

964
00:52:55,396 --> 00:52:57,396
Speaker 1: It's funny you say that. It's like it's like a

965
00:52:57,516 --> 00:53:01,236
Speaker 1: cardinal rule, an unwritten rule that we don't ask each

966
00:53:01,316 --> 00:53:06,356
Speaker 1: other about our intent. Really goes way back to the

967
00:53:06,396 --> 00:53:09,036
Speaker 1: beginning of the band, where it's more it's more interesting

968
00:53:09,156 --> 00:53:10,676
Speaker 1: I think for all of us if we get to

969
00:53:10,716 --> 00:53:14,676
Speaker 1: apply our own meaning to things. And I think the

970
00:53:14,716 --> 00:53:16,436
Speaker 1: reason the band works well is because we all can

971
00:53:16,476 --> 00:53:19,236
Speaker 1: empathize with what he's talking about. But it's also he

972
00:53:19,276 --> 00:53:22,676
Speaker 1: writes in such a way, which is part of his brilliance,

973
00:53:22,716 --> 00:53:24,756
Speaker 1: that you can kind of read into it however you

974
00:53:24,836 --> 00:53:28,996
Speaker 1: want to. And he definitely likes that, so he tends

975
00:53:28,996 --> 00:53:31,956
Speaker 1: to not say too much about what things are about.

976
00:53:32,116 --> 00:53:32,316
Speaker 2: You know.

977
00:53:32,556 --> 00:53:36,036
Speaker 3: Yeah, I imagine as a musician, when it comes time

978
00:53:36,516 --> 00:53:39,876
Speaker 3: for people to start reviewing your new work, it can

979
00:53:39,916 --> 00:53:43,356
Speaker 3: be probably hard to read how people either describe the

980
00:53:43,396 --> 00:53:48,556
Speaker 3: work that you create or you know, critics hearing how

981
00:53:48,916 --> 00:53:53,196
Speaker 3: they're judging what you just created. And oftentimes I see

982
00:53:53,196 --> 00:53:57,556
Speaker 3: people calling the national sad Dad music. How does that

983
00:53:57,596 --> 00:53:58,116
Speaker 3: sit with you?

984
00:53:58,796 --> 00:54:01,956
Speaker 1: Thanks for asking. I think it's well sad dads. So

985
00:54:02,116 --> 00:54:04,316
Speaker 1: is my idea to take that and put it on

986
00:54:04,356 --> 00:54:07,756
Speaker 1: a sweatshirt, the National Sad Dads, And we sold like

987
00:54:07,996 --> 00:54:11,036
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of them like instantly, and everyone was like,

988
00:54:11,076 --> 00:54:15,596
Speaker 1: please make sad moms and sad sad teens. And you know,

989
00:54:16,316 --> 00:54:19,076
Speaker 1: I think it's a badge of honor. You know. I

990
00:54:19,156 --> 00:54:22,636
Speaker 1: kind of love that people think of us as sad

991
00:54:22,756 --> 00:54:24,996
Speaker 1: dads or dad rock or all these things. I kind

992
00:54:24,996 --> 00:54:28,676
Speaker 1: of think, bring it on, like I'm so proud to

993
00:54:28,716 --> 00:54:32,356
Speaker 1: be a parent, and also like it's just life. I

994
00:54:32,396 --> 00:54:36,756
Speaker 1: think aging is beautiful and interesting and I kind of

995
00:54:36,836 --> 00:54:41,276
Speaker 1: love everyone's wrinkles. And you know, how we all look

996
00:54:41,316 --> 00:54:45,596
Speaker 1: and wish people. I wish this society wasn't so anti

997
00:54:46,116 --> 00:54:49,556
Speaker 1: aging and all of that. It's just really depresses me.

998
00:54:49,636 --> 00:54:53,076
Speaker 1: But I would also say that the gauntlet of music

999
00:54:53,196 --> 00:55:01,116
Speaker 1: criticism is really hard for everyone because it's important and

1000
00:55:01,196 --> 00:55:05,116
Speaker 1: I appreciate journalism, and I appreciate it's like necessary, you know,

1001
00:55:05,756 --> 00:55:09,596
Speaker 1: it's like an important part of I love reading. I

1002
00:55:09,636 --> 00:55:12,276
Speaker 1: love reading substance of journalism. I love things like this,

1003
00:55:12,516 --> 00:55:17,756
Speaker 1: like in depth discussion with artists you're interested in and

1004
00:55:18,236 --> 00:55:21,996
Speaker 1: with smart people, and I think that's wonderful. What's hard

1005
00:55:22,116 --> 00:55:26,756
Speaker 1: is like being graded by a subjective person in a

1006
00:55:26,796 --> 00:55:30,116
Speaker 1: way that might lift something up or destroy it. And

1007
00:55:30,156 --> 00:55:32,036
Speaker 1: it's kind of the luck of the draw who you get,

1008
00:55:32,076 --> 00:55:36,476
Speaker 1: because you could call something brilliant or something pedestrian or

1009
00:55:36,516 --> 00:55:39,436
Speaker 1: dismiss it, and it just depends on your perspective, you know,

1010
00:55:39,476 --> 00:55:45,596
Speaker 1: and what you like. But what it does, unfortunately, is

1011
00:55:45,636 --> 00:55:49,356
Speaker 1: it hurts especially younger artists who are coming up, or

1012
00:55:49,716 --> 00:55:52,156
Speaker 1: people who are fragile or vulnerable. And I would say

1013
00:55:52,196 --> 00:55:55,076
Speaker 1: a lot of artists are you know, a lot of people,

1014
00:55:55,916 --> 00:56:00,716
Speaker 1: whether you're making whatever art form you're making, people aren't.

1015
00:56:00,796 --> 00:56:02,716
Speaker 1: You might have a thick skin, but more often than not,

1016
00:56:02,836 --> 00:56:05,836
Speaker 1: you don't. And so like, I've seen people be destroyed

1017
00:56:05,916 --> 00:56:08,836
Speaker 1: by a bad Pitchfork review, not in terms of theirs

1018
00:56:08,836 --> 00:56:13,756
Speaker 1: six but in terms of their emotional stability. And it hurts,

1019
00:56:13,796 --> 00:56:17,196
Speaker 1: you know, because people spend years working on something and

1020
00:56:17,276 --> 00:56:20,116
Speaker 1: then either get celebrated or torn apart for it in

1021
00:56:20,156 --> 00:56:23,836
Speaker 1: one day, and nothing can prepare you for that, you know.

1022
00:56:24,516 --> 00:56:28,156
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd love to hear more about you as a dad.

1023
00:56:28,276 --> 00:56:30,396
Speaker 3: It sounds like your studio is close to your house,

1024
00:56:30,436 --> 00:56:32,996
Speaker 3: so you can leave one and then go to the other,

1025
00:56:33,036 --> 00:56:36,316
Speaker 3: and it's like two parallel universes. Yeah, how do you

1026
00:56:36,356 --> 00:56:40,156
Speaker 3: balance life as the very busy working musician and then

1027
00:56:40,196 --> 00:56:40,876
Speaker 3: home life.

1028
00:56:41,436 --> 00:56:44,196
Speaker 1: It's hard, but it's also I'm lucky that the studio

1029
00:56:44,316 --> 00:56:46,076
Speaker 1: is right by the house, and it kind of there's

1030
00:56:46,116 --> 00:56:50,836
Speaker 1: this balance that has developed that really does work, where

1031
00:56:50,876 --> 00:56:53,436
Speaker 1: I float in and out, but I wake up every

1032
00:56:53,516 --> 00:56:55,716
Speaker 1: day that I'm home and make them breakfast and take

1033
00:56:55,756 --> 00:56:58,556
Speaker 1: them to school no matter what, even if I'm like

1034
00:56:59,596 --> 00:57:02,916
Speaker 1: horribly jet lag or exhausted, and just really try to

1035
00:57:02,956 --> 00:57:06,356
Speaker 1: be present with them. And I've learned to slow down

1036
00:57:07,436 --> 00:57:10,836
Speaker 1: with them and sort of, really, my parents never played

1037
00:57:10,876 --> 00:57:13,756
Speaker 1: with us. I don't have no memory of them getting

1038
00:57:13,756 --> 00:57:16,596
Speaker 1: on the floor and playing or we're just left to

1039
00:57:16,596 --> 00:57:19,396
Speaker 1: our own devices, which is also great. But to me,

1040
00:57:19,476 --> 00:57:25,836
Speaker 1: it's really meaningful to actually take delight in your children

1041
00:57:25,836 --> 00:57:28,716
Speaker 1: and to really meet them where they are, you know.

1042
00:57:29,196 --> 00:57:31,196
Speaker 1: And I feel like I've gotten good at that and

1043
00:57:31,196 --> 00:57:33,756
Speaker 1: then that suits my personality in fact, just to kind

1044
00:57:33,796 --> 00:57:38,436
Speaker 1: of like play, you know. So it's been really amazing. Yeah,

1045
00:57:38,676 --> 00:57:42,996
Speaker 1: And musically it's really inspiring just they follow it all

1046
00:57:43,116 --> 00:57:45,796
Speaker 1: because they hear me listening. I listen in the car

1047
00:57:45,956 --> 00:57:48,116
Speaker 1: when I drive. I listen to what I'm working on

1048
00:57:48,676 --> 00:57:52,916
Speaker 1: and reflect and that really helps them kind of just

1049
00:57:53,036 --> 00:57:56,316
Speaker 1: feel into where I am. And they call it. They

1050
00:57:56,356 --> 00:57:59,876
Speaker 1: call it daddy music. And actually my daughter, My daughter's

1051
00:57:59,916 --> 00:58:04,036
Speaker 1: funny because during folklore and evermore, she would hear there's

1052
00:58:04,036 --> 00:58:06,076
Speaker 1: a story where she once asked me, like, Daddy, do

1053
00:58:06,116 --> 00:58:09,236
Speaker 1: you know Taylor Swift and I sort of had sworn

1054
00:58:09,516 --> 00:58:12,116
Speaker 1: been sworn to secrecy because we had to be secret

1055
00:58:12,396 --> 00:58:15,076
Speaker 1: just to avoid any We wanted just to no one

1056
00:58:15,116 --> 00:58:17,596
Speaker 1: to know what we were doing. And I and I

1057
00:58:17,636 --> 00:58:20,516
Speaker 1: totally lied. I was like, no, she's so talented, like

1058
00:58:20,556 --> 00:58:22,756
Speaker 1: I wish i'd like literally the day before we'd been

1059
00:58:22,756 --> 00:58:26,156
Speaker 1: finishing a song or something. But but then later as

1060
00:58:26,156 --> 00:58:28,756
Speaker 1: she those records came out and they obviously they fell

1061
00:58:28,756 --> 00:58:31,556
Speaker 1: in love with folklore and nevermore. But but Ingram was

1062
00:58:31,556 --> 00:58:33,516
Speaker 1: already a fan of all her other music and said

1063
00:58:33,636 --> 00:58:35,596
Speaker 1: like sometimes she's like, can we Daddy? Can we listen

1064
00:58:35,596 --> 00:58:38,996
Speaker 1: to Taylor? And I'll put on like Cardigan or whatever

1065
00:58:39,116 --> 00:58:41,236
Speaker 1: Invisible String or something she's and she'll be like, no,

1066
00:58:41,316 --> 00:58:44,316
Speaker 1: not a Daddy tailor song, like a real She'd be like,

1067
00:58:44,356 --> 00:58:46,476
Speaker 1: I want to hear a real tailor song? You like,

1068
00:58:47,156 --> 00:58:49,796
Speaker 1: what do you mean? What's wrong with it? And she

1069
00:58:49,916 --> 00:58:52,076
Speaker 1: was like, well, like the Daddy I like the Daddy ones,

1070
00:58:52,116 --> 00:58:54,996
Speaker 1: but could we hear like I'm so anyways, that's very fair,

1071
00:58:55,996 --> 00:58:56,756
Speaker 1: that's so great.

1072
00:58:56,876 --> 00:58:57,636
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1073
00:58:57,716 --> 00:59:00,276
Speaker 3: One thing I noticed, just looking at the artists that

1074
00:59:00,556 --> 00:59:03,516
Speaker 3: you've worked with, it seems like outside of the national

1075
00:59:03,556 --> 00:59:07,156
Speaker 3: you work with a lot of female songwriters, female musicians.

1076
00:59:07,316 --> 00:59:07,556
Speaker 2: Yep.

1077
00:59:08,076 --> 00:59:11,596
Speaker 3: And I'm wondering if you've thought about why that is,

1078
00:59:11,716 --> 00:59:16,276
Speaker 3: or if there's something about your temperament or yourself as

1079
00:59:16,276 --> 00:59:18,796
Speaker 3: a musician the way you play that compliments women.

1080
00:59:19,396 --> 00:59:23,236
Speaker 1: I think I definitely, having been in a band with

1081
00:59:23,356 --> 00:59:29,156
Speaker 1: dudes for so long, I think I enjoy working with

1082
00:59:29,276 --> 00:59:34,076
Speaker 1: single artists like individual artists, and the simplicity of that

1083
00:59:35,116 --> 00:59:39,316
Speaker 1: work where there's really just myself and whoever I'm working with,

1084
00:59:39,356 --> 00:59:43,436
Speaker 1: and it simplifies a lot of the complex psychology of

1085
00:59:43,476 --> 00:59:47,396
Speaker 1: a group dynamics. I tend to not that I avoid bands,

1086
00:59:47,436 --> 00:59:50,596
Speaker 1: but I'm already in a band, you know. And my

1087
00:59:50,676 --> 00:59:53,156
Speaker 1: sister's always been a huge influence on my brother and

1088
00:59:53,196 --> 00:59:56,836
Speaker 1: I artistically. She's a visual artist and she was a dancer,

1089
00:59:56,876 --> 01:00:02,236
Speaker 1: but she's just always really really respected her way of

1090
01:00:02,316 --> 01:00:06,876
Speaker 1: approaching in her like she's very uncompromising and really like

1091
01:00:06,956 --> 01:00:10,116
Speaker 1: the sense of this says is clarity, and she was

1092
01:00:10,116 --> 01:00:12,876
Speaker 1: such a great listener to us also, and I just

1093
01:00:13,156 --> 01:00:16,276
Speaker 1: it was very natural when I first collaborated with Sharon

1094
01:00:16,316 --> 01:00:19,196
Speaker 1: Bennette and was the first record that I made that

1095
01:00:19,276 --> 01:00:22,556
Speaker 1: I was technically the producer outside of the band, and

1096
01:00:23,156 --> 01:00:25,636
Speaker 1: she was just at an early point in her career

1097
01:00:26,436 --> 01:00:28,996
Speaker 1: and we met because my sister booked her to play

1098
01:00:29,036 --> 01:00:32,756
Speaker 1: this basement in our neighborhood in Brooklyn. I don't think

1099
01:00:32,756 --> 01:00:35,436
Speaker 1: it mattered that women or man, but like maybe in

1100
01:00:35,436 --> 01:00:39,396
Speaker 1: a sense, I appreciated the different perspective, you know, and

1101
01:00:39,476 --> 01:00:42,356
Speaker 1: also just felt like there were so many dudes at

1102
01:00:42,396 --> 01:00:44,996
Speaker 1: that time making and now it's kind of nice because

1103
01:00:45,036 --> 01:00:46,996
Speaker 1: it's almost like where are the dudes or what are

1104
01:00:47,116 --> 01:00:50,036
Speaker 1: like where's the like what are they doing? Because it's

1105
01:00:50,076 --> 01:00:52,076
Speaker 1: I feel like most of my favorite artists are women

1106
01:00:52,316 --> 01:00:57,396
Speaker 1: and a lot of incredible writers right now. Honestly, it's like,

1107
01:00:57,796 --> 01:00:59,596
Speaker 1: I don't know how else to grow as an artist

1108
01:00:59,676 --> 01:01:03,436
Speaker 1: or a musician other than to make music with other

1109
01:01:03,476 --> 01:01:06,196
Speaker 1: people and see how their brain works, you know, because

1110
01:01:06,476 --> 01:01:08,956
Speaker 1: that's how you learn. Like I just made this record

1111
01:01:08,996 --> 01:01:11,356
Speaker 1: with Gracie Abrams that I love and like she's half

1112
01:01:11,396 --> 01:01:13,356
Speaker 1: my age. She's literally half my age. She's twenty three

1113
01:01:13,396 --> 01:01:16,996
Speaker 1: and I'm forty six. I definitely benefited as much working

1114
01:01:16,996 --> 01:01:19,076
Speaker 1: from with her as she did with me. And I

1115
01:01:19,116 --> 01:01:20,916
Speaker 1: love that. I love that, I love that feeling.

1116
01:01:21,396 --> 01:01:24,436
Speaker 3: You mentioned that there's a bunch of leftover tracks from

1117
01:01:24,516 --> 01:01:27,916
Speaker 3: the sessions that became the New National album. Why not

1118
01:01:28,076 --> 01:01:31,316
Speaker 3: just put those out as the next album? Like, would

1119
01:01:31,356 --> 01:01:33,836
Speaker 3: you consider doing that or do you go back to

1120
01:01:33,876 --> 01:01:36,316
Speaker 3: the drawing board and do you start fresh?

1121
01:01:36,916 --> 01:01:39,156
Speaker 1: I would say that might happen because it is it's

1122
01:01:39,156 --> 01:01:42,596
Speaker 1: like very strong and like there is another album that

1123
01:01:42,756 --> 01:01:46,916
Speaker 1: is basically done, you know, and it's really some of

1124
01:01:46,956 --> 01:01:49,396
Speaker 1: my favorite songs are in that batch, and I think

1125
01:01:49,796 --> 01:01:53,436
Speaker 1: we might do that, but knowing us, what probably happened

1126
01:01:53,956 --> 01:01:56,636
Speaker 1: is some of that will will surface on the next album,

1127
01:01:56,676 --> 01:02:00,036
Speaker 1: but we'll probably make a lot of other ideas. And

1128
01:02:00,756 --> 01:02:02,956
Speaker 1: I do think we have this feeling that this is

1129
01:02:02,996 --> 01:02:07,996
Speaker 1: our like kid amnesiac moment of like there are sister

1130
01:02:08,116 --> 01:02:10,956
Speaker 1: albums that are really and we're going to finish another

1131
01:02:11,036 --> 01:02:14,996
Speaker 1: one much faster than he would think, you know. So

1132
01:02:15,076 --> 01:02:17,436
Speaker 1: that's even like right now, I might go downstairs and

1133
01:02:17,516 --> 01:02:20,356
Speaker 1: I can hear them playing, and when I have a feeling,

1134
01:02:20,396 --> 01:02:21,916
Speaker 1: they're going to be like we got something, what do

1135
01:02:21,956 --> 01:02:23,636
Speaker 1: you think? And I'll be like, wow, I don't like it,

1136
01:02:23,676 --> 01:02:25,276
Speaker 1: but let's try this or whatever. I'll say.

1137
01:02:25,316 --> 01:02:27,116
Speaker 3: But are they all down there right now?

1138
01:02:27,276 --> 01:02:28,516
Speaker 1: They are? Yeah?

1139
01:02:28,556 --> 01:02:30,676
Speaker 3: Cool. So you guys are rehearsing right now.

1140
01:02:30,796 --> 01:02:33,916
Speaker 1: Yeah, for tour, we're like learning these songs. Yeah. So

1141
01:02:33,916 --> 01:02:35,956
Speaker 1: it's always like you feel like you just have never

1142
01:02:36,036 --> 01:02:40,316
Speaker 1: played music before. You're like, oh, like you know, your

1143
01:02:40,356 --> 01:02:42,956
Speaker 1: mind is not your friend. I was trying to relearn

1144
01:02:42,996 --> 01:02:45,196
Speaker 1: the piano part, which is obviously me playing it, but

1145
01:02:45,196 --> 01:02:47,516
Speaker 1: it's like I completely forgot how it goes after I

1146
01:02:47,596 --> 01:02:49,196
Speaker 1: did it, so it's like I have to like write

1147
01:02:50,516 --> 01:02:51,836
Speaker 1: so anyways.

1148
01:02:52,236 --> 01:02:54,956
Speaker 3: Well, best wishes with the new album, and thank you

1149
01:02:55,036 --> 01:02:56,396
Speaker 3: so much for talking today.

1150
01:02:56,596 --> 01:02:58,236
Speaker 1: Thank you really appreciate it.

1151
01:03:01,156 --> 01:03:03,396
Speaker 2: Thanks to Aaron Jasner for giving us a look into

1152
01:03:03,396 --> 01:03:06,436
Speaker 2: the National's inner workings and his approach to produce it.

1153
01:03:07,156 --> 01:03:09,956
Speaker 2: You can hear all of our favorite Nationals song along

1154
01:03:09,956 --> 01:03:12,956
Speaker 2: with other stuff Aaron's worked on on a playlist at

1155
01:03:12,996 --> 01:03:16,956
Speaker 2: broken record podcast dot com. You can subscribe to our

1156
01:03:16,996 --> 01:03:20,876
Speaker 2: YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast,

1157
01:03:21,036 --> 01:03:24,036
Speaker 2: where you can find all of our new episodes. You

1158
01:03:24,036 --> 01:03:27,756
Speaker 2: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record

1159
01:03:27,836 --> 01:03:31,396
Speaker 2: is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Ben Tolliday,

1160
01:03:31,596 --> 01:03:36,116
Speaker 2: and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record

1161
01:03:36,156 --> 01:03:38,676
Speaker 2: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this

1162
01:03:38,756 --> 01:03:42,076
Speaker 2: show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.

1163
01:03:42,716 --> 01:03:46,316
Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content

1164
01:03:46,396 --> 01:03:49,676
Speaker 2: an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month.

1165
01:03:50,076 --> 01:03:53,516
Speaker 2: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if

1166
01:03:53,516 --> 01:03:55,716
Speaker 2: you like the show, please remember to share, rate and

1167
01:03:55,756 --> 01:03:58,836
Speaker 2: review us on your podcast app. A Team Music's by

1168
01:03:58,876 --> 01:04:00,956
Speaker 2: Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Mischman,