WEBVTT - Richard Thompson 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:08.800 Pushkin. 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:15.280 Richard Thompson is a London born guitar virtuoso whose careers 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.360 started in nineteen sixty seven as part of the groundbreaking 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:22.880 folk band Fairport Convention. The following decade, Richard formed a 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.240 duo with his former wife, Lynda Thompson, and together they 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:29.200 released six albums, including the critically acclaimed I Want to 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:32.360 See the Bright Lights Tonight and my personal favorite pour 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.160 Down Like Silver. Richard then struck out on his own, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.839 writing songs that I've since been covered by artists like 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:43.640 Robert plant of his Costello and Bonnie Ray. On today's episode, 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.199 Bruce Helim talks to Richard about his love of traditional 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.680 Scottish music and how he's reworked. 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:49.840 Old folk songs over the years. 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.239 Richard also plays examples of his unique playing style on 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.040 the guitar and talks about the time he played alongside 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:04.959 Jimmy Hendrix. Is broken record, Real musicians, real conversations. Here's 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:06.840 Bruce Hadlam with Richard Thompson. 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:10.880 You talked in your book about a big event for 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:15.760 you is when you heard the band's first album. It 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:20.839 helped reassure you that you're looking at Scottish music, particularly 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.160 in English and Irish, Yeah made sense. Can you talk 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.560 about what it was like to hear that record? 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:29.880 Well, the band's first album came out at a time 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:33.120 of sort of high psychedelia, you know, the San Francisco band, 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.080 So you know, some of which I thought were great, 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:38.400 Somemmer which I thought really were not very good, but 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:40.440 there was a kind of a looseners to it, and 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:44.800 I kind of a kind of a drugged noodling anyway, 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.120 you know, that was the provading culture at the time, 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.600 and when the band came along, it was kind of 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.400 a shotgend oft that the short haircuts for you know, wow, 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.360 you know, gosh, people with short haircutsing. So suddenly Y 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.080 had this music that this seemed very honest, and it 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.240 seemed very down to that, and it seemed rooted in 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:08.079 so many American music forms, but successfully rooted, successfully continuing 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.280 those traditions. I said, Yeah, you had gospel, you had RM, 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.239 but you had blues your country, you had jazz, all 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:18.760 perfectly blended and musicians who could play that stuff in 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.720 their sleep. But that's somehow they'd learned how to play 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.000 this stuff really really well for a bunch of basically Canadians, 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.919 you know. But plus you know, leave On from Arkansas. Yeah, 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.040 you had three great singers in that band, and you 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.799 had a you know, juniors keyboard player and sax player 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.560 in Garth Gods and God Rest Society just passed away. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.720 And you had a great guitar player in Robbie Robertson, 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.160 and a great rhythm section, I mean one of the 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:50.040 best rhythm sections in the history of rock music anyway 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:54.000 in Levon and Rick Danko Ridanka is still one of 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:55.919 my favorite three bass players. 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.440 What interests me when you when you talk about particularly 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:07.000 that record, is you share something with the band that 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.880 not a lot of writers do, which is that you 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:14.280 write music that seems both very old and contemporary at 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:15.000 the same time. 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:15.600 Yeah. 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:18.520 You know, people always say, well, the band songs sound 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.120 like they could have been written a hundred years ago, 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.480 and I think not quite, because they sound modern too. 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:22.920 Yeah. 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.560 Yeah, and I can't think of many writers who really 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:27.400 pull that off. 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:30.560 Well, you know, you have to know your history, I 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.359 think first of all, which the band obviously did. I mean, 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.880 they knew their roots. You know, they jammed with Sunny 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.840 Boy Williamson. You know that they really understood certainly, you know, 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:45.800 rock rock and roll music, and as writers, particularly Robbie. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:47.840 You know, it was a history buff you know, so 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.120 perhaps almost to a fault because I think some of 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.440 the lates stuff is a bit more labored. Things like 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:56.680 the night they drove off Dixie Down. I mean that's 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:58.120 just a piece of history. 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.560 It started in the library. Yeah, okay, So how did 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.920 you go back to investigate Scottish music? You grew up 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:09.120 with some, but there's a whole history there. Yeah, and 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.160 this is going to sound like a naive question. Are 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.640 there great resources that you could go to? Was it 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.480 just old records when you started looking back to research 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.320 this stuff? What were you looking at? 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.400 Various sources. You've got a great resource in London called 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:28.040 the Social Sharp House, which has a big library of 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:32.040 traditional music and there's what champions of traditional music and 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.120 preservas of traditional music. So you can go there and 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.080 look stuff up, you know. Yeah, you can get the 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.239 Child ballads, you know, the five volumes collected by Francis 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:45.000 James Child, which has like, you know, four hundred English, 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:51.279 Irish Scottish ballads in there. That's another great resource. There 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.599 are people who seeing this stuff. It's like a living tradition. 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:57.120 I mean, if you got out to Aberdeenshire in Scotland 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.480 in the nineteen seventies. You could have set in the 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:05.320 caravan of Lucy Stewart, you know, as many collectors did, 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:10.600 Kenny Goldstein and Shirley Collins. They all went up to 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.680 to to Lucy Stewart because she had an incredible memory 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:21.280 as a repository of traditional music. And after Kenny Goldstein left, 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.840 apparently she said, you know, he didn't he didn't get 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.240 a half of what I know, so a lot of 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.600 stuff might have passed away with her. You know, we 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:35.040 don't really know. So you've got all those resources. And 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.000 we learned a lot from people like Alor Lloyd, who 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:44.279 is who was another great musicologist who specialized in traditional 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:47.360 music and also a singer. And what we get Burt 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:48.919 on the end of the phone and say, Bert, we 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:53.360 got this song in Mattie Groves, you know, and we're 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.200 missing we like a better verse three. You know, well 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:57.560 what have you got would you know? 0:05:57.680 --> 0:05:57.800 Then? 0:05:58.160 --> 0:05:59.599 So he said, oh yeah, well if you take this 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:01.880 one from this source and that blah blah, you know. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.360 So in a sense what we were compiling ballads from 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.760 all over the place really to come up with a 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:12.240 version that we felt really, you really did it, you know, 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.240 it really told the story. One of the great things 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.480 about some of those old songs it is how colorful 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.520 they are in a sense that they describe things in 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:26.479 a very colorful way, in a very immediate way that 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.320 suits you know, a rock band actually could quite well. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:32.880 It suits an electric treatment quite well. 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.040 Were there songs that just resisted it you thought, no, 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:37.760 this song, it just belongs to another age. We can't. 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.080 Yeah. Sometimes, yeah, I think sometimes there was a feeling, 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.880 you know, that the song was too pastoral and that 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:48.760 wasn't really our lives in the twentieth century, you know, 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.599 where we were kind of urban nights or suburban nights and 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.800 a song about you know, you know, I Sow the 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.120 seeds of love. I think we eventually recorded a bit, 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.880 but I was a bit reluctant to do it because 0:06:59.880 --> 0:07:03.400 I thought it's too you know, it's too soft. You 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.160 know that there are better songs that there are kind 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.040 of industrial songs, there are work songs that would fit 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:12.720 the genre, but it would fit you know, the the 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.960 electric band setting better. But you know, something like like 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.800 Magic Roads. It's just that it's such great language. The 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.640 laghage is fantastic you know, you know, a grave, a grave. 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.920 Lord rold cried to put these lovers in but bury 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.200 my lady at the top. She was of noble kin. 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.440 You know, it's really beautiful, clever, you know. 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:35.720 So did that that in a sense gave you your 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:37.640 vocabulary for your own music? 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:38.920 I think partly? 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.559 Yeah, for sure, you're known as a very depressing writer. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.760 Of course, because so many of your songs are about 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:50.160 love a band and love scorned being alone. 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.960 Well I suppose. I mean, you know thematically, you write 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.520 about what you know, and you write about you know, 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.320 human states that have been written about for hundreds of years, 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.560 so that there are a kind of a tradition. There's 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.760 an overlap. But I'd be very interested. I'd be very sorry. 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.520 I'm influenced by the language of traditional music. 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.000 Now when you get these songs, they wouldn't come with harmonies. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:13.120 Were they mostly melodies? 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:15.640 Like? 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:17.760 Did you have to re harmonize a lot of these things? 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:19.160 Yes? We did. 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.960 Yeah, American music, I guess, because so much is influenced 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:27.280 by blues. Just it's got such a strong resolution, you know, 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.480 just heads towards that final chord, and I find a 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:33.360 lot of the music you were playing a lot of 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.720 the folk music, it sort of expands, it doesn't have 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:43.240 that that same drive towards sort of the final resolution. 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.880 I think, well, I think people, you know, people like 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.559 Davey Graham, people like Martin Cathy developed a way of 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:57.080 accompanying traditional music in a way that reflected more what 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.679 you're hearing a solo vocal performance, so that a lack 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.439 of resolution. And the way you did that is through 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:14.839 suspensions really you know, through not resolving. So that's the 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.160 tuning that the Davey Graham I think it was the 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.480 first person to come up with. It's not onlike a 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.480 Clarence actually banjo tuning from the Appalachians in the nineteen 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:29.079 you know, thirties onwards. And what is the it's it's 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.680 basically D A D A D G A D. 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.280 So he was the first to use like a dead 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:36.080 get suspension. 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.440 Yeah yeah, it's. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:50.680 A suspension because it's a it's a sixth yeah right yeah, okay. 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.080 So that some may start that when it may finished 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:56.400 that way as well, which is good, which is just 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.240 leaves it open. I mean, it doesn't resolve anything, you know, 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:02.480 is it for you know, something like she moves with 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:03.079 a fair. 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.880 My young love said to me, my parents will, Ma, 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:15.280 my father will like you for your lack a harp. 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:15.640 Come. 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:26.240 And she let her hand on me, and then she did. 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:39.840 Say, what will not long? 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.400 Yeah? Sorry, kind of rings over. You have a nice 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.240 thing about those kind of open tunings is if you're 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.719 a solo guitarist, you get a bit size, you get 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:03.720 a bit more volume out of the guitar. But because 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.120 so many notes are ringing over, gives the illusion that 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:08.200 you're a best guitar player than you actually are. 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:12.320 I'm going to remember that now. Some of your songs 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.440 walking on the wires a song, Yeah, I think of that, 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.400 and I know it does resolve in the end, but 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.280 it almost feels like it could end on the fourth, 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.719 it could end on other tones. The Great Valerio is 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.200 another one to me that it feels very much like that. 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.480 You seem to like these songs that don't have the 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:36.480 just they just have a different I don't know if 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.360 it's the form that's different. I don't quite know how 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:40.000 to describe it. 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.360 Yeah, well know you mean, and I do like that, 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:44.800 you know, I like that like a resolution in a sense. 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:46.959 But again, I think it all comes from vocal music. 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.240 I think it comes from hearing somebody sing a song 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:54.679 unaccompanied and you imply what the harmony is. And if 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:58.760 you're schooled in you know, you get kind of Mozart 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.440 kind of harmony or something, then you're going to accompany 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.600 it that way. If you come from a more traditional background, 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.120 or if you're Mars and Carthy or Davey Graham, you're 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:08.760 going to interpret it in a different way. You're going 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.920 to interpret the harmony as something else, or you're just 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.559 going to add a drone to the whole thing and 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:17.160 and just just leave it floating. 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.040 Now, do you use a lot of drone notes? 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:19.760 Yeah? 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.359 Does that? Does that come from bagpipe? 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:23.120 Yeah? Pretty much. 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:25.400 And so when you're doing that, do you do you 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.760 try and you try and use an open string for 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:28.280 the drone? 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:29.640 Yeah? 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.000 And is it always the tonic or. 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:42.160 They're practicularly it's either going to be the G or 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:42.400 the D. 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:02.960 It's funny because in you know, a lot of jazz, 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.720 it'll be the high note will be uh, particularly in 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.360 the piano. Yeah, that's how they'll harmonize a lot of 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.440 like little runs and things like you'd have you'll have 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.800 the high tonic. And then do you ever use like 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:14.920 the high e for. 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.719 The well, yeah you can, you can do do it 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:17.760 the other way around that exactly. 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:55.760 So yeah, you also use you use an enormous number 0:13:55.760 --> 0:14:00.480 of like trills on your Is that again the bagpipe influence. 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.679 It's traditionally influence you bagpipes, you know, Scottish, Irish fiddle players, 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:10.240 accordion players. There's a lot of grace notes, a lot 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.199 of extra notes around the note that that would be 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.520 a big part of the expression or where you're playing. 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.400 In something like a dance tune, that's pretty much sets 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:20.680 you know, this is the tune that, this is how 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.640 you play it. To make it more interesting, you might 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.880 add more flourishes and bits and pieces, you know that 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:46.840 kind of you know that kind of stuff. 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:54.040 Well, is there any and I don't even know if 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:57.000 the harp is a is a Celtic instrument? 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:01.280 Sure is? You know the original Western European and instrument 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:03.920 for a companying voice was there was the harp, you know, 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.600 the small harp the ballad hop right, So people like 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.800 Richard the first Richard the Lionheart, who was a singer songwriter, 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.240 thank you very much. His mother was Eleanor Vakatain, who 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.400 was a champion of the arts. But if you were 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:20.080 a king or a courtier or something. Among your accomplishments 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.600 besides like you know, murdering people, you know, like spiking 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.160 people through with a sword or was you had to 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.920 dance and you had to sing, and in some cases 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.400 you could be a songwriter. Henry the eighth was a songwriter. 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.920 Oh yeah. Also I would have accompanied himself on the 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.760 on the harp. He wrote songs like black is the 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:41.720 color of my true love's hair, which I'm sure it 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:46.880 is never off your turntable pastime with good company, and he. 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.120 Would stroke it out and say blonde is the color? 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:54.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, so we still got Adde 0:15:54.960 --> 0:16:00.280 Bollyn's head anywhere. Yeah, check the hair color. Yeah. Didn't 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.640 write green sleeves, so that came a little late, but 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.600 that was accredited to him for a while. So yeah. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.760 So if you if you're if you're a king, courts 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:09.520 you singer songwriter. 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.240 Like all great songwriters, he took credit for things he 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.360 didn't actually write. Well, when you're king, very country. Yeah, 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.120 when you're king, you say, oh, I think I wrote 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:22.000 this one. Of course you did, your majesty. Is there 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:23.880 any harp influence in your playing? 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.720 Yeah? Any any kind of guitar or covered with with 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:35.080 your finger picking. It's a very hard like and if 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:43.560 if you use, if you use those kind of strings 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.240 that ring over, you know, those kind. 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:50.440 Of tell me what you mean that when you say 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:51.680 strings that are ringing over. 0:16:51.800 --> 0:17:00.240 Well, you know, like like I see, I suppose to 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.359 call straight flat picking more jazz style. 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.720 So for people who would be casual listeners, they might 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:17.959 think you were born somewhere on a Scottish glen to goatherds. 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:19.800 Well, that sounds romantic. 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:24.120 It does, as it turns out. It turns out I'm 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:28.280 really from London, suburban London. Suburban London suburbs are a 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:32.840 wonderful place. It all comes from the suburbs. The Rolling Stones, 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.119 the Beatles, inner sense come from the suburbs, you know, 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.200 the Kings come from the suburbs fairly close to where 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:39.000 I grew up as well. 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:41.960 Yeah. Yeah, but my father was Scottish, so that's always 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:46.920 been a strand in the music, you know, and as 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.480 a kid I was kind of transfixed by Scottish music, 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.280 but by things like bagpipes, you know, hearing bagpipes outdoors 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.919 where where you get that that kind of Doppler effect 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:58.159 or that kind of phasing thing. You know. 0:17:58.320 --> 0:17:59.800 Oh, even as a kid, you like that. 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:01.919 Well, you know, just one of the first music I 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.480 ever heard was probably going with my parents up to 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.919 Edinburgh Castle. I'm watching the military tattoo, you know, with 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.440 these incredible pipe bands. I suppose I could have been 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.879 attracted to the incredible drumming, but it was it was 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.160 more the you know, Scottish use of melody. I think 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.920 hit me for very young, my melody and drone, which 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.080 you know, it's an old It's an old human thing, 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:30.119 isn't it. You know, in Western European music, you know 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.520 that they developed kind of the chord a compliment, you know, 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.000 but a lot of cultures didn't go that way though, 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.680 that they just had the drone and the melody and 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.120 a lot of instidments playing in Unison, that kind of thing, 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.240 which I also find very attractive. Although I do like 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.120 harmony as well, I like everything. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:54.600 Is there something distinctive about Scottish melodies? Are there certain 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:57.360 tones they emphasize? 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.879 You know that there's an interesting Scottish use of the 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.560 pentatonic scale. And you know, if if you think of 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.119 country music where that comes from, a lot of it 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:11.920 comes from Scottish music. The Scots were a notable ethnic 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.160 group in the Appalachians and that you know that that 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:20.920 that classic country you know, major pentatonic scale do you do? 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:21.399 You do? 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.520 You do that? 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:25.760 That's all over country music and it's all over Scottish 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.960 music as well. And so so that there's that pentatonic scale, 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:34.480 there's a there's another Scottish pentatonic scale which doesn't have 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:43.840 a third in it. There's no major or minor. 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.119 I see, So how would you if you were going 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:56.080 to harmonize that? 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:58.720 You know, the classic way to harmonize Scottish music is 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:04.320 basically to use the the root called and one, so 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:08.480 I k d you use the sea as well as. 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:14.800 There's almost a mixed Ildien sound. 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:19.000 Yeah, and it's kind of I would say it's unique 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.000 to Scottish music, but it's it's it's fairly unusual and 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.720 it's almost a bit lonesome in a sense, you know, Yeah, yeah, 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.199 you get this kind of spaciousness. Well, work with that 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.080 particular scale, I find which it was suitable for the backpipe, 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.000 you know, which is out there you know playing on yeah, 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:36.800 up in the mountains or you know, at the end 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.640 of a loch or something. So you know, it's it's 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.480 a dimension of music that struck me very young, and 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:45.959 it kind of stayed with me as well, even as 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.439 I learn more about harmony and I learned about you know, 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:54.520 you know, ponlytonalism and twelve tone and dissonance and uh 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:57.520 that those basic kind of like drone in the fifth 0:20:57.680 --> 0:20:59.840 or or you know that there's still very compeling. 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.160 We'll be back with more from Richard Thompson and Bruce 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:16.600 Headlam after the break. 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:22.439 When did you first pick up a guitar? 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.920 I think I was probably ten. Yeah, my father was 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.879 was an amateur guitar player. You know, no, they're not 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:33.320 actually very good, and one day he bought him a 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.520 guitar one of his old army mates. We worked in 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:38.359 a guitar shop in at the West End of London, 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:41.280 and I had this damaged guitar, like the side had 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:45.120 split open in transit, and my father, being I would work, 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:47.120 you know, glued it up and thought this is great, 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:49.560 I'm going to play it. But I grabbed it before 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:51.919 anybody else could get their hands on it and basically 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:56.760 commandeered it. And you know, at that time, you know, 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:58.919 it's kind of a you know, we're talking about nineteen sixty, 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.399 you know, rockn roll where it was still around. I 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.960 had an older sister who had Buddy Holly Records and 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:10.280 Elvis Records and June Vincent and Jerry D Lewis. 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:10.280 You know. 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.800 So you know, the guitar was a very hip thing. 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:16.959 And also in Britain you had an instrumental bank called 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:20.919 the Shadows, which they were kind of British Adventures if 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.520 you like. But actually much better players are much much 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:24.240 better recorded. 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:26.920 I wanted to ask you about the Shadows because they 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.239 loomed so large. Oh they did in England. People here 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:33.360 would know their stuff because they associated with surf music. 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.320 And Canada as well. Actually, you know, a more local 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:40.200 hotspot for for the Shadows, was that, right. Neil Younger 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:43.760 claims he was a huge Shadows fan, okay, and you 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:46.439 can hear in his playing actually it's used to that, 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:47.520 you know, the wammy bar. 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:50.800 And everything, right, yeah, and you like them as well well, yeah. 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:52.640 I mean it was a great sound, of very deductive sound, 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.159 and it was something that you could get together with 0:22:56.400 --> 0:23:01.320 with your with your friends and and that was the 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:05.520 kind of the beginning of playing in a group, you know, 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.159 of learning from each other, which is what happens when 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:10.480 you joined a banner. You kind of pick stuff up 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:14.440 from the other people in the band and you slowly 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:19.040 spiral upwards. We hope you know as musicians. But yeah, 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:23.600 the Shadows were very influential on every body of a 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:25.520 certain age. I mean really, you know, if you speak 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.120 to Jimmy Page or somebody, you know, he was like, oh, yeah, 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:29.520 I hate Marvin you know the Shadows. 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:31.840 Yeah, could he play a strat well, well. 0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:35.960 The story is at that time that there was a 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:39.560 band on American imports of instruments for some reasons, so 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:42.439 you couldn't buy a Fender, you couldn't buy Gibson. So 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:45.120 Cliff Richard, who the Shadows, used to back well when 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:46.679 I was at the States because he had a hit 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:51.320 record here and and he brought back the first actual 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.200 Fender stratocaster to go into England and he came to 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:56.679 Hank so that was a big thing. And then they 0:23:56.720 --> 0:24:00.959 all got kitted out with fenders, you know, so exciting stuff. 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:03.119 This is has such a distinct, beautiful sound. 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:08.720 Yeah, yeah, it's all about tone, and you used you know, 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:12.520 like these so fairly primitive these days, but but you know, 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:16.080 to tape eco device it's for portable tapeco machines to 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:18.800 give him a bit of extra reverb. 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:22.000 There are other players that you've talked about, and one 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:24.679 and again not someone people over here have listened to 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:26.280 is Davey Graham. 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:29.160 Yeah, he's kind of the first guy through the door, 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:36.600 you know. But maybe mid mid fifties. Davy was acoustic 0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:38.840 guitar pler, and I should stress that first of all. 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:43.359 And he was playing kind of a blended style. He 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:45.919 was playing something that had Scottish re roots and he 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:49.040 was part Scottish West Indian roots here he was got 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:53.359 part Guyanese and you know, throwing in jazz kind of 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:57.240 throneous monk and stuff, you know, and kind of blending 0:24:57.240 --> 0:24:59.240 it all together with a bit of you maybe Morocco 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.280 music into Morocco and kind of soaked up a bit 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:06.080 of music down there, and it kind of blended into 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:08.400 this style that that kind of stayed in a sense. 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:12.000 You know that that influenced Bert Jansch. So Bert jan 0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:15.439 had a kind of you know, Scottish English traditional style 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:17.920 with a bit of blues thrown in. You know who 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:21.720 was Martin Carthy, you know, influenced but by by David Graham. 0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:24.760 He was just kind of pioneer and in a sense 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:27.560 he was kind of all over the place, you know. 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:30.160 You know, you know you had to kind of discipline 0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:34.280 him to to make sense of his music, you know, 0:25:34.400 --> 0:25:35.840 because he just sit down and say, oh this is 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:38.240 you heard this tune from Marks, you know, blah blah 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:40.000 blah blah blah. And I said, oh, this is a 0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:43.359 this is yeah, this is Miles Davis. You know, he 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:46.280 just be you know, all over the place. So to 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:49.640 sit him down and and and have him more disciplined 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:53.000 but was quite a thing, you know. And you know 0:25:53.080 --> 0:25:55.359 he was junkie, you know. Yeah, he had a lot 0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:59.119 of issues and it's life. But but you know I 0:25:59.119 --> 0:26:01.560 saw him from time to time. I mean, he's a 0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:02.400 good man, good man. 0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:05.639 It strikes me that that you're a more disciplined player 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:08.560 that like when you talk about chance putting sort of 0:26:08.560 --> 0:26:12.399 blues in Scottish, you don't do that as much like 0:26:12.440 --> 0:26:15.240 when you're playing a more bluesy style, which is a 0:26:15.280 --> 0:26:18.000 more rock style for you, not you don't really do blues. 0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:22.320 You tend to play a little more formally. Is that true? 0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:22.760 Yeah? 0:26:22.920 --> 0:26:23.679 Or is that unfair? 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:24.080 Well? 0:26:24.520 --> 0:26:28.240 I think not so much. Formally it's different. You know. 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:32.399 I think I realized in about nineteen sixty seven that 0:26:32.480 --> 0:26:36.240 there's a lot of competition in London for blues guitar players, 0:26:36.280 --> 0:26:37.760 you know. You know, but in my school back yet 0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:39.480 we were playing blues r and be all that kind 0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:42.000 of stuff. But at a certain point, I thought, you know, 0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:44.399 you know, yeah, you've got a piece of green out. 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:47.840 You've got Rick Klatton, You've got Mick Taylor. You know, 0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:51.040 you've got all all these blues players and it is 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:53.800 a crowded field and I'm just naming, like, you know, 0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:56.560 three of them, but there's like twenty, you know, just 0:26:56.560 --> 0:26:57.040 just in life. 0:26:57.040 --> 0:26:59.959 I think there's twenty named Jimmy yeah alone. 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:02.480 Yeah. So so I thought, well, you know, I'm really 0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:04.560 going to be different. You know, the the you know, 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:06.119 the blues and I says that they don't have a 0:27:06.160 --> 0:27:10.880 place in my vocabulary, but but Kelsey music does. And 0:27:11.200 --> 0:27:13.399 you're in Kelsey music. You also you have you have 0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:16.160 bent notes, you know, you have a kind of soulful 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:19.760 kind of phrasing, you know. So I thought, well, I'll 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:23.760 I'll exploit that more than the blues. Inevitably, I've got 0:27:23.840 --> 0:27:26.280 technique that probably comes from BB King. I mean that's 0:27:26.359 --> 0:27:28.040 just something I learned at school. You know, there is 0:27:28.440 --> 0:27:30.879 you know, if you're brato, you know kind is your 0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:40.960 vibrato like his? No, But everybody's just different. But yeah, so. 0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:44.440 You made you mentioned you mentioned bent notes in Scottish music, 0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:46.720 Well what tones are you bending to and from? 0:27:46.760 --> 0:27:50.800 Then? From Scottish Irish music, there's more bends in Irish 0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:59.359 music for sure, mostly going up to the but bending 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.199 up to the seventh, right, bending up to the octave, 0:28:03.840 --> 0:28:09.360 bending up to this to a second, I. 0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:14.680 See, And that's more Scottish, that's more Irish and more 0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:17.360 Irish pardan me is that is that because the instruments 0:28:17.359 --> 0:28:17.880 they were using. 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:22.080 Yeah, you know, Scottish pipers now under the influencer of 0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:25.680 Irish pipers bend notes they're they never used to. But 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:28.680 the bending is it's more of a vocal tradition in Scotland. 0:28:29.480 --> 0:28:31.800 Like work songs in the Hebridies, you know, you have 0:28:31.880 --> 0:28:33.560 you have more notes that get the kind of bend 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:36.240 up to the note that not much going down, but 0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:39.200 a lot of times bending up to the note. You know. So, 0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:41.280 so I tried to develop a different vocabulary. Really, I 0:28:41.760 --> 0:28:43.720 didn't want to sound like all these other blues players. 0:28:44.400 --> 0:28:48.200 I've always thought it was kind of cultural exploitation and somehow, 0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:51.720 you know, all these white guitar players in London, you know, 0:28:51.760 --> 0:28:55.840 but but buying chess records. Never been to Chicago, you know, 0:28:56.240 --> 0:28:59.200 never been to Mississippi. But you know they love the music, 0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:01.320 absoutely love the me is it? But I thought, well 0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:03.000 is that enough? You know? Is it enough to love it? 0:29:03.720 --> 0:29:07.240 At what point? Are you just like like a kind 0:29:07.240 --> 0:29:10.840 of a slavish imitator, you know, a dilet hands, you know, 0:29:11.120 --> 0:29:14.640 a colonial exploit. This is all go through my head 0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:16.720 when I'm like, you know, eighteen years old, you know, 0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:19.479 I thought, well, well, you know, you know, the interesting 0:29:19.520 --> 0:29:21.720 stuff for me, like when you know, when the Yardbirds 0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:24.200 were playing, I'm a man, you know, I thought that 0:29:24.240 --> 0:29:26.960 this is you know, pathetic. You know when you think 0:29:26.960 --> 0:29:31.120 of the nobility of the original version, you know than 0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:34.800 the Muddy Waters version, It's like it's just got sexual authority. 0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:36.760 It's such a nobility to it. 0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:37.280 You know. 0:29:37.280 --> 0:29:39.400 The yard Bud's just sounded like little boys, you know, 0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:41.800 and they couldn't do the feel, you know that the 0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:44.000 feel of the rhythm section, it was all wrong. But 0:29:44.040 --> 0:29:48.000 you know, but I thought when the yardbirds did original songs, 0:29:48.040 --> 0:29:50.280 it was far more interesting when they did for Your 0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:52.760 Love or something. Thought well, this is actually a really 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:55.160 good pop song and the blues influences coming in, and 0:29:55.200 --> 0:29:57.360 that's fine, you know, I thought that was a more 0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:01.400 interesting use of influences. 0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:03.680 In your book, you mentioned being on stage I think 0:30:03.800 --> 0:30:06.120 just once with Jimmy Hendrix. 0:30:05.840 --> 0:30:07.120 Oh but probably three times. 0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:08.000 And what was that like. 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:10.800 We used to play this late night club called the 0:30:10.840 --> 0:30:14.920 Speakeasy in London, and you know, birds would roll in, 0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:19.000 you know, usually after midnight from playing out of town. 0:30:19.040 --> 0:30:22.160 You know, they come back from Birmingham, my magister, and 0:30:22.200 --> 0:30:24.840 they'd be hungry so that they come in and to 0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:28.840 eat really but there was always a live band on 0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:31.560 and there was a dance floor. We used to play there, 0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:33.400 you know, a couple of times a month at least, 0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:37.440 you know, and Jimmy would, you know, about one o'clock, 0:30:37.520 --> 0:30:39.880 two o'clock in the morning, after a few drinks, would 0:30:40.680 --> 0:30:42.360 want to get up and play. So you just sit 0:30:42.480 --> 0:30:46.800 in with us, which was fantastic. Bit intimidating, of course, 0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:50.200 but it was a nice experience and he was a 0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:52.440 very sweet man in my. 0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:56.280 Experience, did he because he played a left guitar, right. 0:30:56.320 --> 0:30:58.040 He just take my guitar and then turn it upside 0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:02.320 down and play with great facility either way, you know really. 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:04.440 Yeah, did he string his guitar that way or did he? 0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:05.680 I'm not sure he strung it. 0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:08.560 I mean for a left handed guitar player. Yeah, but 0:31:08.680 --> 0:31:12.080 he could play mine basically upside you know, he turned 0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:15.920 it upside down and figure out everything in the reverse 0:31:18.200 --> 0:31:19.360 genius will or will. 0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:21.120 Out he gave it back to you. Did you just 0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:23.840 smash it and leave? That's quite something. 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:25.680 No, he didn't set fire to it. He didn't smash it. 0:31:25.720 --> 0:31:28.280 But no, I was thinking, maybe you did. Well, I 0:31:28.320 --> 0:31:29.240 can't do that anymore. 0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:31.880 Well, think with Hendrix. I mean you could kind of 0:31:31.880 --> 0:31:34.520 figure out what he was doing, you know, harmonically, it 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:38.880 wasn't that that uh, you know, it was sophisticated. There 0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:42.840 was basically a blues play. But he could always up 0:31:42.880 --> 0:31:44.440 the game. You know, he could always play with his teeth, 0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:47.080 you could have sex with the guitar, you know, he 0:31:47.120 --> 0:31:49.480 could you know, play behind his back. You know, he 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:52.000 had all the tricks that he'd learned, you know, playing 0:31:52.000 --> 0:31:55.960 on the chitpland circuit in America. But yeah, it was 0:31:56.000 --> 0:31:58.360 an interesting presence on the on the London music scene, 0:31:58.400 --> 0:32:02.560 and I think he intimidated all those guitar players, the 0:32:02.600 --> 0:32:05.720 Claptains of Jeff Becks, so that they were totally intimidated 0:32:06.160 --> 0:32:08.040 because in a sense, you know that they've been learning 0:32:08.040 --> 0:32:11.880 off records and they developed this way of playing the 0:32:11.920 --> 0:32:14.920 blues and R and B. And then this guy turns up. 0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:18.120 He's kind of the real thing, you know, and he 0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:21.600 can take it to another level. You know, they're all, 0:32:21.720 --> 0:32:24.280 you know, they're utterly intimidated. That's a great story of 0:32:25.520 --> 0:32:30.440 I think one of Jimmy's first bigger performances in London, 0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:34.160 and it was the week that Sergeant Pepper came out 0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:38.440 and all the guitar players turned up, Pete Townsend, Jeff Beck, 0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:41.360 Eric Clapton, I think Paul McCartney was there as well. 0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:45.360 There was sitting in the audience, you know. And of 0:32:45.360 --> 0:32:48.680 course Jimmy's opening song is Sergeant Pepper's Learning Hearts Club, 0:32:48.680 --> 0:32:51.840 but which he learned knowing that that there'll be a 0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:54.440 beatle in the in the audience, so of course he 0:32:54.520 --> 0:32:56.640 like destroys it. You know. He plays it pretty straight 0:32:56.720 --> 0:33:01.200 for about a chorus and then and all hell, let's 0:33:01.280 --> 0:33:08.200 loosen and he goes into his stratophoric Jimmy and at 0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:10.440 the end of the song, you know, these guitars can 0:33:10.440 --> 0:33:13.719 pretty out of churning. He's just destroyed the tuning. So 0:33:13.760 --> 0:33:19.920 he says, Hey, Eric, are you out there? Meany Clapton 0:33:19.960 --> 0:33:24.120 And it's a little sort of puny for yes, and 0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:30.840 he says, could you come and tune this for me? Oh? Yeah? Anyway? Yeah, 0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:33.160 So yeah, he was He was the presence on the scene. 0:33:33.280 --> 0:33:36.480 What was it about London? I guess England at that point. 0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:38.160 I mean the Beatles and the Stones are sort of 0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:42.600 you know, they broke the ice. Yeah, but there seemed 0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:46.000 to be so many You were playing all the time. 0:33:46.120 --> 0:33:50.640 There were clubs, there were colleges, and there was John Peel, 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:54.760 who's this huge influential figure who was recording guys like 0:33:54.840 --> 0:33:56.560 you before anybody else. 0:33:57.280 --> 0:33:59.160 What to start with it with John Peel? John Peel, 0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:02.920 what was a British DJ? You kind of emerged about 0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:07.200 sixty seven, you know, with the rise of psychedelia, flower power, 0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:11.239 and he had a show on the BBC. They had 0:34:11.239 --> 0:34:12.640 a couple of sho he had a late night show 0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:15.279 and he had a show where bands would come into 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:19.759 the studio and record, especially for that show. So you 0:34:19.880 --> 0:34:21.480 come in and if you had a new record out, 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:25.600 you'd record, especially for the BBC, four songs and they'd 0:34:25.640 --> 0:34:30.160 be broadcast and anybody and everybody. It was on that show. 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:34.080 You know, Pink Floyd had come in and spent hours 0:34:34.120 --> 0:34:37.080 trying to reproduce their latest record, which they spent you know, 0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:40.319 months on. But they manage it, you know. And his 0:34:40.440 --> 0:34:43.399 producer was a great guy, Bernie Andrews did just a white, 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:46.520 wonderful character. The engineers were great, you know, and the 0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:51.160 BBC somehow allowed this to happen in a sense that 0:34:51.200 --> 0:34:54.480 you know, the BBC, we was very conservative, but let 0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:57.359 things slip through sometimes, you know, like Munty Python's flying 0:34:57.400 --> 0:34:59.839 cycle or something. I mean, they just allowed it all 0:34:59.840 --> 0:35:02.600 to up and because they weren't really paying attention. Yes, 0:35:02.640 --> 0:35:05.239 so that's the radio. In terms of places to play, 0:35:05.280 --> 0:35:07.560 there were a lot of places to play. There were 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:09.640 clubs first of all, you know in London you had 0:35:09.640 --> 0:35:13.600 half a dozen clubs where everybody would play. So that 0:35:13.760 --> 0:35:16.920 was great because that was a kind of a fallback, 0:35:16.960 --> 0:35:19.920 you know that that's income. And also at that time 0:35:20.920 --> 0:35:24.840 every university in London I was basically free. There was 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:29.120 no fees for tuition, and also they all had entertainment 0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:35.200 budgets from the then socialist government in Britain, so they'd be booking, 0:35:35.280 --> 0:35:38.640 you know, these incredibly anti establishment bands like Soft Machine 0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:41.640 and Pink Floyd, The Crazy World of Arthur Brown, you know, 0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:45.839 and fairpoorl Convention Thank you very much. So in a sense, 0:35:46.120 --> 0:35:49.160 you know that this whole countercultural thing about was subsidized 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:53.839 by the British labor government. So Pink Floyd you had 0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:59.319 probably owe their existence to Harold Wilson more than anybody else. 0:35:59.320 --> 0:36:00.720 They should thank him on the sleeve. 0:36:01.080 --> 0:36:04.520 I think I should have a special album dedicated to Horrid. 0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:07.520 Because you know, there's an argument in the United States 0:36:07.520 --> 0:36:10.279 now but protectionism and tariffs and all these things. It's 0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:12.360 interesting to think back at a time that the government 0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:15.520 said no, you know, BBC had to use live performances. 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:18.480 They didn't want taped music because they're very strong unions 0:36:18.960 --> 0:36:21.120 colleges needed to hire live musicians. 0:36:21.440 --> 0:36:24.760 Well, it's extruding. It was a thing that didn't last forever, 0:36:24.840 --> 0:36:27.719 you know. Again, I mean that kind of changed. I 0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:29.960 think the other good thing about that time was that 0:36:31.680 --> 0:36:33.759 the record companies hadn't figured out what was going on. 0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:38.680 You get these moments in music where the business is 0:36:38.760 --> 0:36:42.040 lagging behind the creativity, and that's when things really pop, 0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:45.480 you know, that's when stuff is exciting. And it took 0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:47.560 them a while to catch up. The same thing happen 0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:49.399 with punk, you know, but basically it took about two 0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:52.400 years to figure out what the sex Pistoles were up to, 0:36:52.520 --> 0:36:54.560 you know, but by which time a lot of stuff 0:36:54.920 --> 0:37:00.800 had slipped through. So you had record companies scrambling to 0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:05.439 sign everybody, and they pretty much did, I mean, any 0:37:05.520 --> 0:37:08.640 any band you know, of any shape or size was 0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:12.319 basically signed just in case, you know, in case they 0:37:12.360 --> 0:37:14.960 were the next big thing. So that was good, you know. 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:17.960 So you have people making records that maybe wouldn't have 0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:20.080 ever made records peep, like the Incredible String Band, and 0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:23.759 they made, to my mind, fantastic records, but they might 0:37:23.800 --> 0:37:24.560 never have been signed. 0:37:25.080 --> 0:37:27.880 How important was live performing for you back then? In 0:37:28.080 --> 0:37:29.239 learning what it was? 0:37:29.280 --> 0:37:32.120 Everything? You know, I think it was and it still is. 0:37:32.880 --> 0:37:37.399 The light Live performance is always the focus because it's 0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:39.920 that thing that happens, is that transaction that happens between 0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:44.040 a performer and the audience in which the performer is 0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:48.200 almost just like like the conduit for creativity. 0:37:48.640 --> 0:37:50.120 Is that how it feels when you're up there? 0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:52.120 Yeah, a good day. Yeah. 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:55.240 You mentioned in your autobiography that I guess just because 0:37:55.239 --> 0:37:57.120 of the kind of clubs you were playing in the demands, 0:37:58.000 --> 0:37:59.920 you get pretty good at doing long solo. 0:38:00.840 --> 0:38:01.200 Yeah. 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:03.960 I don't know if you watch the Get Back documentary, 0:38:04.000 --> 0:38:07.040 but there's a scene that always sticks out to me, 0:38:07.120 --> 0:38:10.359 which is George Harrison is talking about Eric Clapton. He said, 0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:12.080 you know, he can just play and play and play, 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:14.359 and Harrison says, I can't do that. Yeah, he can 0:38:14.400 --> 0:38:16.640 solo within the confines of a song. 0:38:17.040 --> 0:38:20.319 Oh absolutely, And George would kind of figure out a 0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:23.080 solo as well. He wouldn't be improvising a solid necessarily, 0:38:24.120 --> 0:38:27.000 but for use improvisations. Oh yeah. But that's as the 0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:29.080 school that I came out of. That that was what 0:38:29.280 --> 0:38:32.359 was not only permitted at the time, but expected at 0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:35.080 the time. So if you're a band and you had 0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:37.520 a guitar player in the band, the guitar player will 0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:40.440 be expected to stretch out. Yeah. I mean that's the 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:42.400 same thing in the States, you know, with the psychedelic 0:38:42.480 --> 0:38:44.800 bands from San Francisco, you know the quick Silver Messenger 0:38:44.840 --> 0:38:47.760 Service or something. You know, there was no real restriction 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:51.439 on how long a solo it would be. It could 0:38:51.480 --> 0:38:53.239 be two minutes, it could be half an hour. You know, 0:38:53.440 --> 0:38:56.480 it depended on you know, probably the you know, the 0:38:56.560 --> 0:38:59.239 drug balance of the band, and you know, how people 0:38:59.239 --> 0:39:02.080 were feeling and how the audience were responding. You know. 0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:04.400 So that's just the school I came out of. So, 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:08.240 you know, I go and watch bands and I'd see, 0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:10.359 you know, it's a sep of people like Jeff Beck 0:39:10.400 --> 0:39:12.720 and playing a ten minute solo, and I think, okay, 0:39:13.360 --> 0:39:13.959 fair enough. 0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:16.400 And it never that was never intimidating. You always had 0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:17.560 not the charms. 0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:21.480 I mean, it was something that we did because maybe 0:39:21.680 --> 0:39:24.480 we hadn't rehearsed, you know, more than an hour of music. 0:39:25.000 --> 0:39:28.839 Sometimes you'd be playing three sets at the aforementioned speakeasy 0:39:28.880 --> 0:39:31.440 and you think, well, okay, third set, we'll just do 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:33.560 a longer solo and on this particular song, you know, 0:39:33.880 --> 0:39:36.840 that'll be that'll be half a set. So that was 0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:39.520 another consideration. But and I just got used to it, 0:39:39.600 --> 0:39:42.400 you know, and in a sense, you know, into the seventies, 0:39:42.560 --> 0:39:45.279 I'm still doing the same thing. Sometimes I'm hoping the 0:39:45.280 --> 0:39:48.880 audience isn't falling asleep, of course, But but it just 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:51.040 became a thing, and after a while, you know, the 0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:53.239 audience expects it. You know that the guitar nerds and 0:39:53.280 --> 0:39:56.680 the audience are waiting for the guitar solos. You know. 0:39:56.920 --> 0:39:58.799 I guess it's hard for me to think of you 0:39:58.880 --> 0:40:02.600 in that way because you are such a your songwriting 0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:06.919 is so strong and your songs are so well constructed 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:09.320 as forms, and I tend to think of those players 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:11.799 not being great songwriters. 0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:14.600 Understand, Yeah, but I wouldn't do it in every song. 0:40:14.680 --> 0:40:18.000 And some songs you almost want to have a surah 0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:20.920 that's pretty much written, you know that you refer back to. 0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:23.359 You might do little variations on it, but it's kind 0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:26.279 of part of the structure. But then maybe a couple 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:29.960 of songs in an evening you might just let go 0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:35.640 and figure that the emotion of the song will carry 0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:39.759 you into the instrumental passage. You know, you start off 0:40:40.320 --> 0:40:42.360 with a lyric and the lyric has a certain emotion 0:40:42.440 --> 0:40:45.640 to it, and you think, well, I'm you know, maybe 0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:49.200 you don't even think about it. You just go instrumentally 0:40:49.680 --> 0:40:51.440 and if the band goes with you, that's great, And 0:40:52.120 --> 0:40:55.080 you know, you might play for another ten minutes, and 0:40:55.160 --> 0:40:58.480 it's still it's still musical. You know, you're not being 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:02.080 self indulgent necessarily. You know you're just being carried on 0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:03.840 the way of whatever the song is. You know the 0:41:03.880 --> 0:41:07.200 emotion of the song, and you kind of know when 0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:09.280 you get to the end. 0:41:09.480 --> 0:41:12.000 One last break and we're back with Richard Thompson. 0:41:16.480 --> 0:41:18.160 We've talked a lot about your playing. When did the 0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:19.279 writing start for you? 0:41:20.800 --> 0:41:23.239 Well, writing can be inspired by anything. It should be 0:41:23.280 --> 0:41:27.359 inspired by anything. So it's good if you can have 0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:30.800 the flexibility to start with a melody, or start with lyrics, 0:41:31.200 --> 0:41:34.360 or start with a riff, start with a hook line, 0:41:34.800 --> 0:41:35.720 just to get you started. 0:41:35.800 --> 0:41:38.799 You know, some people are collectors of folk music, but 0:41:38.920 --> 0:41:42.080 some people you learn to sort of transform it. When 0:41:42.120 --> 0:41:44.080 did you know? Was there a song a time you 0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:47.640 thought I found my voice? I know this is mine now? 0:41:48.520 --> 0:41:52.160 Well, probably in the sixties. I'm playing with Fatball Convention 0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:59.640 when we started to play traditional music with electric instruments, 0:41:59.800 --> 0:42:01.920 and at that point I thought, okay that this is 0:42:03.120 --> 0:42:06.200 this is where I begin in a sense, this is 0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:09.920 this is a vocabulary I need to learn, and somehow 0:42:09.960 --> 0:42:11.840 I'm going to stay with this and I'll add to 0:42:11.880 --> 0:42:14.319 it and I subtract from it. But basically this is 0:42:14.440 --> 0:42:17.480 this is going to be my musical vocabulary, and at 0:42:17.520 --> 0:42:19.719 some point I think it gets more influenced by jazz 0:42:19.719 --> 0:42:22.799 and by classical music harmonically. I'm not afraid to kind 0:42:22.800 --> 0:42:27.040 of extend that vocabrary pretty much anywhere. But I think 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:28.360 if you've got a strong route, if you've got a 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:32.680 strong basis, yeah, then you're free to bring other things 0:42:32.719 --> 0:42:35.520 into it and it's still your music. So you can 0:42:35.560 --> 0:42:38.680 say that's a great idea in that Jamaican song, I'm 0:42:38.719 --> 0:42:41.239 just gonna I'm going to grab that. I'm going to 0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:44.800 incorporate it into what I do, and it won't sound Jamaican. 0:42:44.840 --> 0:42:47.480 It I sound like what would I do. Yeah, I 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:49.920 think at a certain point you have a distinctive vocabulary 0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:52.759 and songwriting as well. I mean, I mean, it's the 0:42:52.800 --> 0:42:55.840 same point I figured out, like this, this is the 0:42:55.880 --> 0:42:58.239 kind of song I want to write. This is a 0:42:58.280 --> 0:43:01.920 song that has roots in where I come from and 0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:06.440 and I'm not going to lose that. But I can 0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:10.080 also I can change the rhythm sometimes, you know, I 0:43:10.080 --> 0:43:13.520 can import a rhythm from somewhere else. I can use, 0:43:14.080 --> 0:43:17.960 you know, this Indonesian something or other. You know, that's 0:43:18.000 --> 0:43:20.360 an inspirational idea, you know, but you can kind of 0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:22.640 make it yours. I think people have always done that. 0:43:23.000 --> 0:43:25.560 And you know, you had this just explosion of great 0:43:25.600 --> 0:43:29.080 songs for Fairport, and then later when you're playing with 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:33.239 your then wife Linda, you were writing for two really 0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:37.400 great singers. You're writing for Sandy Danny, and then Linda 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:39.920 tell me about how you went about that. 0:43:40.800 --> 0:43:42.799 Yeah, I think it is possible to write with somebody 0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:44.759 else in mind. So you can say, I'm going to 0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:48.719 tailor this song to someone else's voice, someone like Genesis Hall, 0:43:50.360 --> 0:43:54.960 you know, with tailored to Sandy's key and to Sandy's 0:43:57.520 --> 0:44:00.200 wonderful wide ranging abilities as a singer, you know, like 0:44:00.239 --> 0:44:02.520 she could really do justice to it. So the whole 0:44:02.560 --> 0:44:05.040 way the chorus goes and moves off to sing anything. 0:44:05.360 --> 0:44:09.560 So I'd be quite comfortable doing something which would really 0:44:10.360 --> 0:44:12.960 use all of our range. And for Linda, you know, 0:44:14.360 --> 0:44:17.120 I'd write songs and then we would discuss them and 0:44:17.400 --> 0:44:20.279 we say, okay, you should sing this one. Uh, you 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:21.800 know this one is it's more of a kind of 0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:23.960 a male song where but perhaps I should be singing 0:44:23.960 --> 0:44:25.919 this one. You know, it's it's more what we could 0:44:25.920 --> 0:44:27.239 emotionally identify with. 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:30.400 Really, you know, you are considered the two of you 0:44:30.480 --> 0:44:33.040 are considered the authors of one of the great breakup 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:35.120 albums of all time. But you say that's actually not 0:44:35.200 --> 0:44:40.240 the case. That wasn't the shootout the lights was coincidental. 0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:44.400 But I think it's a it's a journalistic lazy cliche evenstance. 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:47.080 In some ways, I'm a lazy journalist. That's why I 0:44:47.200 --> 0:44:47.520 use it. 0:44:48.120 --> 0:44:51.480 It wasn't aiming at that's you. But I'll take it 0:44:51.560 --> 0:44:56.239 a previous you know, written reviews and stuff, and people 0:44:56.239 --> 0:44:58.560 will like a bit of scandal anyway that don't exit, 0:44:58.680 --> 0:45:00.839 so that they'll play that up. Plus, you know, the 0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:04.720 songs were written, you know, a year, two years earlier 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:08.279 in some cases, so we've been living with the songs 0:45:08.280 --> 0:45:10.400 for a long time. And I'm sure you know the 0:45:10.440 --> 0:45:14.880 songs kind of subconsciously reflect on what's going on in 0:45:14.920 --> 0:45:17.839 your lives. But you know, to me, it's just an 0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:21.200 album of songs, some of which I still enjoy and 0:45:21.239 --> 0:45:23.600 some of which I still perform. Yeah, it's funny when 0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:26.000 you've got albums that are sort of you know, forty 0:45:26.040 --> 0:45:29.000 five years old and fifty five years old and you're thinking, 0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:32.040 oh gosh, I'm still playing this song, so it must 0:45:32.040 --> 0:45:35.160 be a good song if you're still if you're still there. 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:37.680 Did you always relate to them at the time, because 0:45:37.800 --> 0:45:41.200 you've also written story songs, You've written songs about different 0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:44.480 people other people. Yeah, in a sense, one of you know, 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:48.400 your big hits, fifty two Vincent black Lightning. It's not 0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:50.600 about you, but in some sense it must have been 0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:51.040 about you. 0:45:51.360 --> 0:45:53.840 Well, you know, the envy is about me. When I 0:45:53.880 --> 0:45:57.240 was a kid, one of the neighbors had a vincent 0:45:57.800 --> 0:45:59.880 black shadow which I thought was just the most beautiful 0:45:59.880 --> 0:46:03.760 thing I've ever seen, this, absolutely incredible. So I remember 0:46:03.840 --> 0:46:07.680 that when I started writing the song. No, you know, 0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:11.319 I make things up and make up stories. That's a 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:13.080 valid thing to do, I think as a songwriter. 0:46:13.880 --> 0:46:16.920 Can I ask you about a few individual songs from 0:46:17.000 --> 0:46:22.120 your solo career Waltson for Dreamers, which is just futiful? 0:46:22.320 --> 0:46:23.120 Do you remember writing that? 0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:27.120 Yeah, started with the title, you know, I think just 0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:29.239 as sometimes I just wrote right down titles, you know, 0:46:29.600 --> 0:46:34.200 just for fun and preferably as you know, as streamer 0:46:34.239 --> 0:46:38.040 consciously as I can. And again I think I'm making 0:46:38.080 --> 0:46:40.640 something up, but maybe it's about me. I don't know. 0:46:40.920 --> 0:46:45.719 Can you talk about persuasion? Which saying with your son Teddy. 0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:50.080 Well, I read that an instrumental for a film, Oh yeah, 0:46:50.520 --> 0:46:54.520 with a slightly different melody, and it's an Australian film. 0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:57.760 And my friend Tim Finn, who was actually from New Zealand, 0:46:57.800 --> 0:46:59.399 but I think he was living Australia at the time, 0:47:00.160 --> 0:47:02.919 said I like that tune. Can I put some words 0:47:02.960 --> 0:47:05.759 to it? So so we kind of sat down and, 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:08.520 you know, tried to co write a lyric, which is 0:47:08.520 --> 0:47:13.680 a very difficult thing to do. So I said, Tim, 0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:17.440 take it away and just run with it, because you know, 0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:21.080 I'm struggling here to to to find some mutual experience, 0:47:21.160 --> 0:47:23.520 so we can we can really write about So he 0:47:23.560 --> 0:47:26.760 went away and wrote the lyric and he recorded it first, 0:47:26.880 --> 0:47:30.279 and then I thought, well, I like this song, so 0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:32.480 I'll do a version, And then I did a version 0:47:33.160 --> 0:47:37.040 with Teddy and that those are very popular kind of 0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:41.279 radio here actually, and whatever. Whenever I sit in with 0:47:41.400 --> 0:47:43.600 with with Teddy or he sits same way with me 0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:46.480 and we sing a few songs together, that's when the 0:47:46.520 --> 0:47:47.359 audience wants to hear. 0:47:48.280 --> 0:47:52.640 You reminded me of your relationship with Tim Finn that 0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:55.080 you've done a few songs with Crowded House, and you 0:47:55.280 --> 0:48:00.319 did a very famous guitar solo on Sister Madly. It's 0:48:00.360 --> 0:48:04.240 just so different from everything else on that album. Unexpected. 0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:08.759 Yeah. I did a lot of tours, were opening for 0:48:08.840 --> 0:48:11.960 Credit House in Europe and in North America, and we 0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:14.920 became good, good friends, you know, and I would usually 0:48:14.960 --> 0:48:18.560 sit in on their set and we play System Madly 0:48:19.320 --> 0:48:21.960 or something else you know at the time, and credits 0:48:21.960 --> 0:48:24.800 are great because they'll they'll kind of do anything on stage. 0:48:24.840 --> 0:48:27.520 I mean, they'll mess around that, they'll mess up their 0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:30.160 set list, they don't really care, and it was always 0:48:30.200 --> 0:48:32.040 great fun to play with them. So, you know, I 0:48:32.400 --> 0:48:34.840 got to do the you know, the record, the System 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:39.920 Madly record. In fact, last May, I did a seventy 0:48:40.040 --> 0:48:42.840 fifth birthday I just give my age away, Good Heavens 0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:47.000 seventy fifth birthday constantly in London at the album Hall London, 0:48:47.040 --> 0:48:51.960 and and Credit House came and played on that, so 0:48:52.320 --> 0:48:54.319 you know, I just I just sat in with them 0:48:54.360 --> 0:48:56.279 for a few songs, which was great, you know. So 0:48:56.320 --> 0:49:00.239 we got to do Weather with you and Don't Dream 0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:04.400 It's Over and Lovely, one of my favorite bands. I 0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:06.400 think I think Neil is one of my favorite songwriters 0:49:07.080 --> 0:49:09.879 without Squeeze on the on the bill as well, which 0:49:09.920 --> 0:49:13.200 is my favorite British band. 0:49:14.080 --> 0:49:17.520 You did a great solo version of Tempted Yeah, which 0:49:17.520 --> 0:49:19.160 I would think a song that there's no way you 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:21.640 could do that solo, but you was. 0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:25.880 I think we had somebody on percussion and when we 0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:27.680 did it and I think Judith I was singing harmony. 0:49:27.680 --> 0:49:29.360 He said so, so it can't be done. It's not 0:49:29.360 --> 0:49:31.280 an easy song because that the harmony is really tricky. 0:49:33.000 --> 0:49:35.239 Glenn till Brooker, who writes the melodies, you know that 0:49:35.280 --> 0:49:39.319 he loves. He's kind of moving basslines and it's sort 0:49:39.360 --> 0:49:42.600 of unexpected jazz. Course it could sneaking into a pop song. 0:49:42.840 --> 0:49:46.319 The very the very complex songs it is yeah yeah, 0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:48.120 and his guitar playing is very. 0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:52.799 Guitar playing is complex. The lyric is complex, and the 0:49:52.880 --> 0:49:56.120 usual rule of thumb which Squeeze ignore all the time, 0:49:56.360 --> 0:49:59.280 but get away with it is you know, complex lyric, 0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:04.160 simple melody, complex melody, simple lyric. That's the sort of 0:50:04.480 --> 0:50:07.360 standard you know from the Brial building days or before 0:50:07.440 --> 0:50:10.560 you know, but squeeze get it, get away with it 0:50:10.560 --> 0:50:14.880 with the complex lyric complex melody. They just somehow they 0:50:14.920 --> 0:50:41.840 do it, you know. So that's really nice kind of 0:50:41.840 --> 0:50:45.960 shifts and lots of majors of mine minus the major stuff. 0:50:46.600 --> 0:50:49.440 I was going to mention you did a it was 0:50:49.480 --> 0:50:52.759 a Kennedy Center honor or something for Joni Mitchell, and 0:50:52.840 --> 0:50:57.800 you played Woodstock. Now the rumor was you weren't supposed 0:50:57.800 --> 0:50:59.120 to play Woodstock that night. 0:50:59.680 --> 0:51:03.880 Yeah, the Stone Temple pilots Withdrew at the last minute. 0:51:04.040 --> 0:51:05.920 I don't know if someone was ill or you know, 0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:11.160 whatever reason. So I had now, which in a sense 0:51:11.239 --> 0:51:12.719 is good. But because I didn't have time to think 0:51:12.760 --> 0:51:15.000 about it, I thought I was, okay, well, you know, 0:51:15.200 --> 0:51:18.120 let me pick a key. I'll do it in d 0:51:18.400 --> 0:51:20.840 you know. And I tuned it to a modal tuning 0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:24.200 as well. And I thought, well, I don't really know 0:51:24.239 --> 0:51:26.680 the tune. You know, the lyrics are going to be 0:51:26.719 --> 0:51:30.359 on the auto que, so I'll I'll get the lyrics 0:51:30.400 --> 0:51:32.240 from there, but I kind of know them. But sometimes 0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:36.040 you think think you know something and you don't. And 0:51:36.560 --> 0:51:39.200 I just went went out cold, and you know, I 0:51:39.200 --> 0:51:40.920 didn't have time to get nervous. I didn't have time 0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:42.560 time to think about what I was doing, you know, 0:51:42.600 --> 0:51:44.600 I didn't have time to think there's journey out there 0:51:44.600 --> 0:51:47.480 on the balcony, So you know, sometimes you just had 0:51:47.480 --> 0:51:51.319 to shut stuff out and concentrate. So that was good 0:51:51.760 --> 0:51:54.040 and people seem to respond to that very well. But 0:51:54.400 --> 0:51:57.880 basically I was just making it up, you know, honestly. 0:51:58.080 --> 0:52:01.440 So tell me, for steners, you say it's a modal tuning, 0:52:01.680 --> 0:52:02.800 what do you mean by that? 0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:04.560 That look like a dad gut down d D. 0:52:08.080 --> 0:52:10.600 Does that mean it relates to a particular mode or 0:52:11.640 --> 0:52:12.959 when you say modal. 0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:16.600 It's called a modal chuning. I think because you have 0:52:16.680 --> 0:52:18.839 suspensions in it. You know, yeah, you could, you'd have 0:52:18.840 --> 0:52:29.120 a modal tuning with a second in it, but this 0:52:29.160 --> 0:52:45.040 one keeps saif keep that going, that's right. But for yeah, 0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:46.000 for whatsuck, I just. 0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:53.279 Charted. God, you was walking a lot, that's me. 0:52:53.360 --> 0:53:00.480 Where are you going? You're telling me? So, you know, 0:53:01.520 --> 0:53:03.440 the open tuning gave me a lot of leeway in 0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:05.640 terms of whatever the hell I was going to sing 0:53:05.680 --> 0:53:08.160 us a melody and how I was going to fit 0:53:08.200 --> 0:53:10.560 the words. But I got away with it. You know, 0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:13.680 it's not nice sometimes. Yeah, we're professional musicians here, We're 0:53:13.680 --> 0:53:15.080 supposed to be able to do this. Kind of stuff 0:53:15.080 --> 0:53:17.080 we're supposed to able to rise to the moment. 0:53:17.960 --> 0:53:20.400 I did want to ask you about a couple more songs. 0:53:20.440 --> 0:53:23.840 First of all, fifty two vincent black Lightning, which is 0:53:23.840 --> 0:53:28.480 always a great moment in your concerts. What did what 0:53:28.560 --> 0:53:31.840 went into that? We talked about the lyrics. It was 0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:36.040 just envy what went into the well? It sounds like 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:39.400 a traditional rock and roll song in some ways, but 0:53:39.440 --> 0:53:41.600 it's got a very different feel. 0:53:41.960 --> 0:53:52.200 Yes, so it's I mean the tune is very very simple, 0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:56.759 nacial melody. 0:53:55.200 --> 0:53:56.719 Just a little bit of it. So we can tell 0:53:56.719 --> 0:53:57.839 me what your Meandian. 0:53:59.520 --> 0:54:07.160 Read to James, that's a fun motor by could feel 0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:09.800 special in his social. 0:54:09.440 --> 0:54:15.240 Life, says James, too, red boy, what's up to you? 0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:21.520 It's an some black light in nineteen fifty two, and 0:54:21.640 --> 0:54:22.880 I've seen you in the corners. 0:54:23.280 --> 0:54:24.319 I'm cafes. 0:54:24.440 --> 0:54:28.640 It seems red hair and black leather my favorite color scheme. 0:54:30.000 --> 0:54:37.399 And they put him off behind and down to box. 0:54:37.120 --> 0:54:39.279 Here that. 0:54:55.080 --> 0:54:58.600 Yeah, so I see, so seize the base note. But 0:54:58.680 --> 0:55:03.799 you're now you're using uh capo as well. But but 0:55:03.840 --> 0:55:05.799 the tune is in G. 0:55:06.239 --> 0:55:11.279 Well, it's it's a nominal G well, that's it's not 0:55:11.400 --> 0:55:16.120 B flat. Yeah. Yeah, it's just kind of c G tuning. 0:55:16.440 --> 0:55:20.759 So it works well for you know, the key of uh, 0:55:20.960 --> 0:55:24.399 you know where am I? Okay? The brief like Cad 0:55:24.960 --> 0:55:30.760 and the Beef, And I thought I'd invented this tuning, 0:55:30.840 --> 0:55:34.000 of course, and I've discovered that they've been using it 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:36.200 in Hawaii for you know, the last hundred years. 0:55:36.719 --> 0:55:38.600 Well, they didn't write that song, but. 0:55:38.440 --> 0:55:41.800 But in Hawaii there's something like two hundred guitar tunings. 0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:45.200 You know that they basically explored everything. So so it's 0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:47.919 it's easy to be late to the game. 0:55:48.640 --> 0:55:49.960 There's so much more I want to ask you, but 0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:51.800 it's you've been very, very generous. 0:55:52.080 --> 0:55:53.280 I have been incredibly generous. 0:55:53.360 --> 0:55:56.880 Yes, you have been incredibly generous, very English, which I appreciate. 0:55:57.000 --> 0:55:57.400 Thank you. 0:55:57.520 --> 0:56:00.000 And what's what's next? You did a great album last 0:56:00.640 --> 0:56:01.319 Ship to Shore. 0:56:01.560 --> 0:56:05.360 Yeah, I keep writing stuff. I don't know where it 0:56:05.400 --> 0:56:08.400 comes from, but I'm still writing songs, and I'm excited 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:10.880 about about the songs I'm writing, and I'm thinking I 0:56:10.920 --> 0:56:13.000 want to get back in the studio and put on 0:56:13.160 --> 0:56:14.560 another record as soon as possible. 0:56:14.680 --> 0:56:15.600 What an absolute treat. 0:56:15.760 --> 0:56:16.879 Thank you very much. To date. 0:56:19.760 --> 0:56:22.160 An episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist 0:56:22.200 --> 0:56:25.040 of our favorite Richard Thompson tracks. Be sure to check 0:56:25.040 --> 0:56:28.040 out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast to see 0:56:28.040 --> 0:56:30.680 all of our video interviewers, and be sure to follow 0:56:30.760 --> 0:56:33.879 us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can 0:56:33.880 --> 0:56:37.200 follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is 0:56:37.239 --> 0:56:40.319 produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from 0:56:40.400 --> 0:56:43.960 Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliday. 0:56:44.600 --> 0:56:48.560 Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if 0:56:48.600 --> 0:56:51.080 you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and 0:56:51.080 --> 0:56:53.960 review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's back 0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:55.800 any beats. I'm justin Richmond.