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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From House toports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And right before the podcast started rolling,

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Speaker 1: Caroline and I were just swapping our recent ghosting stories

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Speaker 1: because are we ghosters? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I UM. I

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Speaker 1: love ghosting in the context of a party because why

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Speaker 1: should you go around and say goodbye to everybody? Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess you should have to be polite. Yeah, I guess,

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Speaker 1: but I mean that. Trust me. If I've ever go

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Speaker 1: through your birthday party, Matt, Hey, if you're listening, UM

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Speaker 1: has way more to do with me feeling awkward or,

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Speaker 1: in the case of my friend Matt's bar hopping birthday party,

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Speaker 1: like way too drunk. I don't really that's not Christian.

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Speaker 1: I don't really drink that much anymore. And um, I

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Speaker 1: certainly do not bar hop anymore where. And uh, we

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Speaker 1: went bar hopping from Matt's birthday and I just got

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Speaker 1: too drunk. I don't know what happened. Alcohol. I drank alcohol.

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Speaker 1: I'm not judging you so hard right now, Carolina, but

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Speaker 1: we got to this one bar and it was like,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely I'm such an a lady at thirty two,

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Speaker 1: But it's something a younger person's bar with like really

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Speaker 1: loud music and lots of like college students dancing on

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Speaker 1: each other. And I was like, I can't do this.

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Speaker 1: You didn't want to get up in that innuit more

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Speaker 1: oh touching people. So I just sort of I just

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Speaker 1: sort of walked out. You ghosted. Yeah, I gotta say

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Speaker 1: I'm a fan of ghosting as well. If there are

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Speaker 1: enough people around where I assume my presence wouldn't be missed, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sits like me and my friend. I'm

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Speaker 1: not just gonna right be like I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom. I gotta go buy a pack of cigarettes,

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Speaker 1: never coming back. But then I try to follow up

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Speaker 1: the ghost with the text of had just such a

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Speaker 1: good time, had to dash, should have done that heart emojis.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of hangover recovery the next day, though.

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Speaker 1: There you go. Well, what we're what we're establishing here

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Speaker 1: is that many of us have probably ghosted in one

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Speaker 1: way or another. And if you haven't heard the term

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Speaker 1: ghosting before, it does apply to both social context like

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Speaker 1: leaving a friend's birthday party without saying goodbye, or in

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Speaker 1: more relationship context of pulling a slow fade, just going

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Speaker 1: going out for the old pack of cigarettes and never

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Speaker 1: coming back. Daddy. Essentially, it refers to just disappearing, whether

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Speaker 1: it isn't a short term like we do sometimes with

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Speaker 1: our friends, or for the long term, like Charlie's Throne

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Speaker 1: did allegedly to Sean Penn, which wouldn't, which made the

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Speaker 1: New York Times. You know a thing is over, No,

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Speaker 1: you know a thing is only beginning. In the case

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Speaker 1: of ghosting, well, guesting is a relatively new term. Um.

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Speaker 1: I definitely have always known this phenomenon by the term

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Speaker 1: slow fade. It's something that did remain I used to

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Speaker 1: talk about all the time when he was on dating

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Speaker 1: sites and would go out with like seventy women at

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Speaker 1: the same time, a couple of times each and I

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Speaker 1: mean that creates so many bad situations, like mixing up names. Um.

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Speaker 1: But it also left him feeling not entitled, but feeling like, well,

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Speaker 1: it only makes sense that I'll just disappear. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: whole intentional avoidance of saying goodbye, right. Um. But even

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Speaker 1: though yeah, we've had different words for it obviously for

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Speaker 1: a long time, because it's not like we just we

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Speaker 1: millennials just woke up and started abandoning things left and right. Um.

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Speaker 1: But if you look at Google interests in in the

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Speaker 1: term search from ghosting, it peaked in July, possibly related

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Speaker 1: to its New York Times coverage. Um, because Jezebel on

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Speaker 1: the side jez about describe Charlie's Throne ghosting Sean Penn

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Speaker 1: and the New York Times was like, wait, what what

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Speaker 1: is this ghosting thing? So they did a whole article,

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Speaker 1: a trend piece on ghosting, and then received an overwhelming

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Speaker 1: response from readers sharing their own ghosting stories, being on

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Speaker 1: both sides of the ghosting equation. Well, yeah, because this

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Speaker 1: happens to everyone in some context or another, and some

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Speaker 1: time or another, and whatever the social phenomenon is. Once

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Speaker 1: you see a word put to it, of course, it's

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Speaker 1: like comforting that your experience, whether you're the ghost or

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Speaker 1: or the ghost e, it's validating. And so yeah, all

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Speaker 1: of these people came out of the woodwork or the

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Speaker 1: New York Times comment board work to connect and share

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Speaker 1: their stories about it. I mean there were there was

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Speaker 1: such an overwhelming response that they ended up publishing a

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Speaker 1: follow up UM, looking at some of the more heartbreaking experiences,

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Speaker 1: and The New York Times defined ghosting as quote ending

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Speaker 1: a romantic relationship by cutting off all contact and ignoring

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Speaker 1: the former partners attempts to reach out and ghosting can

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Speaker 1: be so harsh. But we will get to that later on.

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Speaker 1: But not just in birthday party context. Caroline and I

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Speaker 1: have our own dating ghosting experiences as well. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would say that, um, you know, similarly to dude roommates experiences.

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Speaker 1: When I was on dating websites, I would also it

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Speaker 1: was sort of the first well now that's a lie

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Speaker 1: because college. Um, but it was the first time in

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Speaker 1: my adult post college life that I would ghost people

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Speaker 1: because I was going on all these dates and being like,

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Speaker 1: we obviously have no spark or whatever, and so I

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Speaker 1: just wouldn't return text or calls. And it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like almost the unspoken method of online dating now, I

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Speaker 1: feel like. But I will say that if there were

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Speaker 1: people that I'd been on numerous dates with or hung

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Speaker 1: out with for a while, I did finally work up

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Speaker 1: the courage to be like, actually, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: think we're hitting it off. And for the most part,

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Speaker 1: I received a positive response from people being like oh cool, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like thanks for telling me like this sucks, but you

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Speaker 1: know thanks. Um. My previous serious relationship before I was

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Speaker 1: dating my boyfriend ended on a super super super sour,

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Speaker 1: awful bad note. Um, he basically said some really terrible

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Speaker 1: things to me, and including that I was fat, and

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Speaker 1: um We've been dating for a year and a half

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Speaker 1: and I just like something when he said that awful stuff,

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Speaker 1: like something clicked in my brain and I just said

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Speaker 1: to myself, like, oh, you don't have to deal with this.

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Speaker 1: You don't. There's no reason that you have to put

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Speaker 1: up with this person's crap. So I basically told him

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Speaker 1: it was over. We had you know, one or two

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Speaker 1: follow up conversations where he was, you know, begging for

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Speaker 1: me to take him back and all of this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And there were so many bad circumstances and like you know,

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Speaker 1: emotional only terrible things happening around the breakup. Uh. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then I just so I just blocked him on everything,

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Speaker 1: blocked him on social media, blocked him on my phone. UM. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's sometimes necessary. Yeah, in those contexts, I think ghosting

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Speaker 1: can be really healthy and helpful for us to jump

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Speaker 1: start our healing process from relationships. UM. I will share

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Speaker 1: the flip side of the ghosting experience because I've been

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Speaker 1: ghosted so hard a few times, actually fool me once

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Speaker 1: or five times. Still shame on me. UM. So in college.

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Speaker 1: The first time I was ghosted super hard was in college.

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Speaker 1: But I really liked this guy and it was but

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Speaker 1: it was the kind of thing where we were hook

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Speaker 1: up buddies, and we would see each other just like

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Speaker 1: randomly out but we would have a great time when

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Speaker 1: we were together. And I was I was young, and

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Speaker 1: so I assumed that that meant lots of things. UM

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Speaker 1: And it kind of started, though, getting more regular, where

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Speaker 1: it seemed like, Okay, this guy who was older, who

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Speaker 1: was older I should note I think that played a role,

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Speaker 1: UM wanted to date. And so he started coming over

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Speaker 1: to my house like at a proper hour and even

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Speaker 1: brought his dog once, where I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I guess this is my boyfriend of dogs here he

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Speaker 1: gave me a DVD, a foreign film DVD, no less,

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Speaker 1: So I mean we were practically engaged Caroline College. I

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Speaker 1: miss it sometimes. I think I still had a Wheezer

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Speaker 1: poster on my wall. But he he got up one

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Speaker 1: morning and said, Hey, do you want to go see

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Speaker 1: a t L. I'm aging myself. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: go see a t L at the Dollar Movie? And

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Speaker 1: I was like, of course I do. It sounds amazing.

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Speaker 1: And I was like cool, I'll call you. Let's go

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Speaker 1: on like Thursday or whatever. I was like, okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: so in love. And he left and never called me again.

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Speaker 1: He never called me again. That's so sketch. It's one

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Speaker 1: thing to be like, hey, I'll see you around and then,

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Speaker 1: but to make a plan. Well, the awkward thing is

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Speaker 1: that he uh since moved to has since moved to Atlanta. Great,

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Speaker 1: so that ghost hots me from time to time. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I am. I dated a guy after like I, I

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Speaker 1: was in a serious relationship after college, we broke up.

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Speaker 1: I started kind of similar deal to you, and that

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Speaker 1: guy kind of started quote unquote seeing someone um and

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Speaker 1: he was maybe not the best person and maybe not

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Speaker 1: in search of a relationship, whereas I was like in weird,

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Speaker 1: like desperate, heartbroken mode and was just looking to sink

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Speaker 1: my claws into anybody. I've never been there, Caroline, and

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Speaker 1: he ghosted. Granted, normal behavior, I understand it. However, we

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Speaker 1: had been hanging out for quite a while at this

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Speaker 1: point and so when he ghosted, I was really confused

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Speaker 1: and sort of like, I will say, a little upset

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Speaker 1: about it, because it's not like we had just been

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Speaker 1: on three dates. We've been hanging out for a little while.

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Speaker 1: And I became I became that person. Yeah, I became

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Speaker 1: the person who was like constantly like texting, because in

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Speaker 1: my head I had fooled myself into thinking, well, clearly,

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Speaker 1: there's got to be a reason, Like he works all

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Speaker 1: the time, and he works way different hours than I

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Speaker 1: do because I worked at the newspaper at the time,

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Speaker 1: so I worked like crazy hours, you know, like he's

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Speaker 1: probably busy, he like does all of this extracurricular volunteering

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Speaker 1: stuff like whatever, Like maybe that's why, and so many

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Speaker 1: like terrible embarrassing texts ensued. I finally got the hint,

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Speaker 1: and he ended up like sending me a Facebook message

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Speaker 1: months and months later apologizing, so weird when the ghosts

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Speaker 1: come back and try to resure themselves, Yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: appreciate that. There's no need. It's like, if you're gonna ghost,

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Speaker 1: ghost hard. But we'll get to that. But I think

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Speaker 1: that that's more well, not in this guy's case, but

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Speaker 1: I've had it happen where ghosts have come back, and

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes it can be testing to see if

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Speaker 1: you're still on the roster. Yeah anyway, Yeah, well we'll

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Speaker 1: get into the when when ghosts continue to haunt us? Um.

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Speaker 1: But I did want to note that even though our

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Speaker 1: whole language of ghosting today frames it as this new phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: it's all blamed on technology and dating apps and and

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Speaker 1: sort of the paradox of choice, where why would we

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Speaker 1: settle with one person when we can just get on

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Speaker 1: Tinder and choose other people. Um, So we're ghosting left

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Speaker 1: and right because we all have romantic A D D essentially,

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Speaker 1: But abandoning relationships is a heartbreaking tale as old as time.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there is that trope of going to the store,

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Speaker 1: I went out her cigarettes. Um, you have the variations

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Speaker 1: of getting cold feet, of runaway bribes, um, and it

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Speaker 1: does still happen. I r L. For instance, a woman

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Speaker 1: named Kathy Meyer recounted her husband saying, I think it

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Speaker 1: was on a Sunday, They're about to go to church,

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Speaker 1: and he said, you know what, I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: out for a coke And he never came back, never

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Speaker 1: came back. Imagine, and I I feel so bad for

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Speaker 1: Kathy Meyer, although judging by her story, you shouldn't feel

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Speaker 1: bad for because she ended up having a very great

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Speaker 1: experience in life after that. Um. But imagine what must

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Speaker 1: be going through the head of the spouse who does that?

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Speaker 1: Like who leaves, like leaves all of their stuff? Just

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Speaker 1: leave your spouse like that? Yeah, I can't imagine it.

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Speaker 1: And UM, I went through a John Epdyke phase reading

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Speaker 1: and I was reading Rabbit Run, which is all about

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Speaker 1: this protagonist Rabbit, and he runs essentially he is like

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Speaker 1: the ultimate relationship abandon er. Um. And it was so

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Speaker 1: ironic that I was reading this book at the time,

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Speaker 1: like years ago now, because I was in the process

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Speaker 1: of of my then rabbit running on me, and as

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Speaker 1: it was dawning on me what was happening in my

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Speaker 1: relationship and how this guy suddenly out of nowhere just

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Speaker 1: disappeared and was not texting me back even though we

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Speaker 1: were legitimately in a relationship. I wasn't just pretending that

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Speaker 1: since I met his dog and things were serious. Um. I,

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Speaker 1: you had all this time on my hands and I

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Speaker 1: would lay in the park because the spring reading this

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Speaker 1: book about this guy doing the exact same thing and

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Speaker 1: it was. It was almost too much to handle because

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to pretend that, oh, this is just fiction,

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Speaker 1: this isn't really my life, maybe not quite as highbrow,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time that I was being ghosted

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Speaker 1: by that guy who later apologized, but by the guy

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Speaker 1: Um I saw the movie. He's just not that into you.

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Speaker 1: And at the end of the movie, all my friends

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Speaker 1: were like, yeah, I was all right, you know that

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Speaker 1: good movie or whatever, and I was just pissed my faith.

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Speaker 1: My friends were like, what you didn't want to believe

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Speaker 1: what was happening? Is wrong with you? Because at that

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Speaker 1: point I knew and I had accepted it and was whatever.

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Speaker 1: Hated the guy, but I was just like I was

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Speaker 1: being basically force fed this experience over and over again

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Speaker 1: by watching that movie too soon. Well, Caroline, the comforting

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Speaker 1: thing is that it's not just you and me that

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Speaker 1: this has happened to UM. In October, a pole co

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Speaker 1: sponsored by Yugov and Huffington's Post found that thirteen percent

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Speaker 1: of respondents said that they had been ghosted. An eleven

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Speaker 1: percent of respondents said that they had ghosted UM, which

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Speaker 1: is not a not a ton of people, but still

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Speaker 1: a decent amount. But if we look at men versus women,

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Speaker 1: um L magazine conducted its own survey and found that

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Speaker 1: more people, at least among its readership. I guess um

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Speaker 1: had experienced ghosting, and there were some slight gender differences. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And their survey of women and percent of men respondents

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Speaker 1: said that they'd only been ghosted, they'd been the ones ghosted,

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Speaker 1: And then of women, and sixteen percent of men said

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Speaker 1: that they had only been the ghost or they had

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Speaker 1: ghosted someone but not experienced it in return. Then thirty

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Speaker 1: three percent of men and of women said that they

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Speaker 1: had both been ghosted and ghosted someone else. So in

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Speaker 1: this maybe not quite scientific study, it really doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like it's a particularly gendered behavior. You know, we tend

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Speaker 1: to think men are the ghosters because oh, you know, men,

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Speaker 1: they're afraid of commitment and all they want is sex,

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Speaker 1: sex sex, and women are the poor victims who were

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Speaker 1: always left behind. But I mean, I've been on both

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Speaker 1: sides for clutely, yeah, and I've pulled my share of

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Speaker 1: slow fades as well. Um But as L magazine survey

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Speaker 1: result was surprising to author Peg Streep that they talked to.

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Speaker 1: She wrote, Mastering the Art of quitting white matters and life,

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Speaker 1: love and work. Um. And she had predicted that dudes

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Speaker 1: would be likelier to ghosts since they're socialized to not

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Speaker 1: show their emotions and don't have as much trouble cutting

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Speaker 1: off contact, whereas as you just mentioned, ladies and their

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Speaker 1: emotions tend to want some closure. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: I kind of rolled my eye at that because it's

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Speaker 1: it's human. It's not male or female. It's human to

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Speaker 1: want closure. And you know, whether this is the ghosting

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Speaker 1: phenomenon is because of social media or human nature just

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Speaker 1: being fearful of conflict. Know it's going to be both

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Speaker 1: men and women doing it well. And I think too

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Speaker 1: that it's harder to make a generalization like that because

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Speaker 1: there is a spectrum of ghosting, because you can technically

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Speaker 1: ghost someone when you're still only in the phase of

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Speaker 1: texting each other. You like met on Tinder and you're

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Speaker 1: just doing the preliminary text, and someone goes from that

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Speaker 1: all the way to ghosting on a long term relationship.

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Speaker 1: You go up for cigarettes and never see your kids again. Um.

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Speaker 1: But all of this did remind me in terms of

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Speaker 1: our gender stereotypes about ghosting. It reminded me of due

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Speaker 1: who commented on the stuff Mom Never Told You video

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Speaker 1: I made about ghosting and posted on our Facebook page

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Speaker 1: saying ladies usually need to get over yourself. I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh what, because I guess he assumed that only that

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Speaker 1: I was just complaining as a woman about only men ghosting,

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Speaker 1: So that was that was kind of is just an

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Speaker 1: odd way to interpret that. I feel that a lot

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Speaker 1: of things can be oddly interpreted on Facebook. But you know,

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Speaker 1: but regardless of who's doing the ghosting, it is often

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Speaker 1: criticized as cowardly and cruel. Ghosting has a bad reputation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we will talk more about that bad reputation, and

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Speaker 1: we come right back from a quick break. So Kristen

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Speaker 1: and listeners. My parents have all of these old film

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Speaker 1: reels of family videos, things that are priceless and precious,

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Speaker 1: but I can't watch them because they are dusty old

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Speaker 1: film reels and they need so desperately not only to

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Speaker 1: be digitized, but to be preserved. So I was super

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Speaker 1: excited to get my legacy box in the Male Legacy

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Speaker 1: Box is this great company based in Chattanooga, Tennessee that

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00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 1: will help you preserve any format of outdated memories, everything

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Speaker 1: from VHS tapes to Super eight films, so that you

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00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,440
Speaker 1: can relive those memories again and again. Legacy Box will

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00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 1: send you a kit that you can fill with any

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Speaker 1: formats in your collection. Then you send it back prepaid,

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00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,360
Speaker 1: and the Legacy Box kit includes a guide, round trip shipping,

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Speaker 1: a crush proof box, and a personal concierge so you

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Speaker 1: can talk to an expert at any time. And then

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Speaker 1: in a few weeks, Caroline, you'll receive your original film

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Speaker 1: reels back along with DVDs and digital files ready to

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Speaker 1: share and enjoy. So listeners, if this sounds like something

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00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 1: up your alley, you can head on over to legacy

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Speaker 1: box dot com slash mom stuff, and I recommend you

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00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,199
Speaker 1: do it quickly because we've got a fantastic deal to

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Speaker 1: offer you. Well, you guys should head on over to

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Speaker 1: legacy box dot com and use the code mom stuff

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Speaker 1: to get off that first amazing order. And I'm just

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00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,239
Speaker 1: saying Mother's Day, Father's Day, that's a great present. So

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00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,160
Speaker 1: head on over to legacy box dot com slash mom

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00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: stuff and are preserving your memories today and now back

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Speaker 1: to the show. So regardless of who's doing the ghosting,

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Speaker 1: and regardless of whether this is a phenomenon that is

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Speaker 1: recent or as old as relationship time. Relationship expert Esther

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Speaker 1: Perel blames what we think of as this rise of

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Speaker 1: ghosting on the societal decline of empathy, which, like those words,

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Speaker 1: and it chilled out my spine because we've read about

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Speaker 1: a so called decline and empathy in other topics that

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Speaker 1: we've discussed, especially when it relates to social media and

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Speaker 1: mobile devices, and we're not talking to each other over

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Speaker 1: the dinner table as much. And it does like no

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Speaker 1: matter who you are, how old you are, it kind

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Speaker 1: of instills this fear of like, oh my god, is

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Speaker 1: our society going to crumble? Maybe so over ghosting. You're

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Speaker 1: just all gonna become go posts. I mean, she is

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Speaker 1: a Pearl is very much an advocate of the more

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Speaker 1: direct closure because, as she wisely notes, quote in action

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Speaker 1: has causality, And this really rings true probably for anyone

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Speaker 1: who has experienced ghosting, because when people don't return your text,

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Speaker 1: your instant messages, your calls, you don't just go about

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Speaker 1: your day. A lot of times you sit there and

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Speaker 1: you start mentally filling in a narrative. You're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know what they must be doing? This, so they

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Speaker 1: must be doing that, or it's because I did this, oh,

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Speaker 1: or I did that, and you start to develop your

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Speaker 1: own reason why. Sure, they couldn't possibly have texted back. Oh,

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Speaker 1: they probably just forgot their phone. Maybe their phone is dead. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well imagine I mean, like it was bad when my

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Speaker 1: boyfriend and I first started dating each other. Uh, you

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Speaker 1: know that early stage in relationship where you're committed, you're together,

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Speaker 1: but it's still so new and so like if he

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Speaker 1: was working or something and wouldn't get back to me

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Speaker 1: within an hour, you start being like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I said I must have said something. I must know

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Speaker 1: what did I do? Oh? God, is he mad at me?

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Speaker 1: And then you get resentful and upset. So if that's

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Speaker 1: in the context of a loving relationship where you're like

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Speaker 1: committed to each other, I would like you to exercise

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Speaker 1: some empathy that you might have and imagine the effect

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Speaker 1: it could have when you don't have an established relationship.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I was pretty bad about that

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Speaker 1: when I was single, to the point that, um, I

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Speaker 1: just to just to calm my mind, if I would

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Speaker 1: text someone, if I was initiated a text to someone

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Speaker 1: that I really liked, al was really cute. I would

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Speaker 1: send the text and then hide my phone and not

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Speaker 1: check it for like a couple of hours. That's fart, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that way too. If they did text back immediately,

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Speaker 1: I seem pretty cool and la back. I didn't overthink

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Speaker 1: it at all, certainly not. But Perel also notes how

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Speaker 1: there is a spectrum of ghosting, not only in the

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Speaker 1: sense of the time that you've invested in this relationship

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Speaker 1: in quotes, whether it's a few texts or a few

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Speaker 1: years or more, but how there's the ghosting where you

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Speaker 1: just like up and leave, but there's also the slow fade,

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Speaker 1: and this is referred to as icing, where you just

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Speaker 1: kind of like put someone on ice or not exactly

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Speaker 1: up and leaving, but you're just sort of trying to

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Speaker 1: kind of get them to go get a hint so

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Speaker 1: they'll they'll leave on their own, like maybe you keep

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Speaker 1: putting off plan things like that. And she says that

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Speaker 1: the slow fade is the cruelest because it leaves that

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Speaker 1: other person in a state of stable ambiguity. And I

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Speaker 1: can so relate to it. But I've also pulled the

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Speaker 1: slow fade, and uh, reading this made me feel real

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Speaker 1: bad about it, because it really does foster false hope

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Speaker 1: and provokes insecurity because it's like you might respond to

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Speaker 1: someone texting you, how's it going, Okay, Well there's no

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Speaker 1: commitment here, so oh I'm fine, and then the person's like,

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Speaker 1: oh great, we're still texting, and so they text you

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Speaker 1: want to hang out tonight? And then suddenly, of course

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Speaker 1: you disappear. Yeah you're still there. They're still hanging on yeah,

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Speaker 1: or I mean, you know, in the case of my

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Speaker 1: serious relationship right after college, UM, I inadvertently fostered a

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Speaker 1: bunch of anxiety in my boyfriend because A it was

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Speaker 1: a long distance relationship, which is hard anyway, but B

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Speaker 1: I was still a pretty big commitment fobe at the time,

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Speaker 1: and he just had all of this anxiety and rightfully

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Speaker 1: so that I kind of didn't want to be in

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Speaker 1: a relationship, and so he was the one who was like, so,

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Speaker 1: I feel like you're pulling away, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, And I hate it. I hate thinking

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Speaker 1: back that it had to be him confronting me about

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Speaker 1: my own failing, but yeah, that's just how it went.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little more mature now. I was guilty of

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Speaker 1: that as well. With relationship. UM, I really like the

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Speaker 1: going back to parrel. How she refers to the direct

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Speaker 1: closure um tactic as power parting, which reminded me of

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Speaker 1: Gwyneth Paltrow's conscious uncoupling UM. And obviously, quote unquote power

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Speaker 1: parting is the most mature way to end something um,

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Speaker 1: and she she offers some tips and instead of ghosting,

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Speaker 1: you could employ your power parting skills to say something like,

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Speaker 1: you know, thank you for what I've experienced with you. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is what I wish for you. Henceforward, which I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know if hence is madece forward,

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Speaker 1: although maybe if you say henceforward in a text of someone,

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Speaker 1: they're like, okay, yeah, I don't think this will work

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Speaker 1: out anyway. This is fine. I'll take the staying out

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Speaker 1: of it, um. But it is understandable that in today's

427
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: kind of micro dating economy, where those quote unquote relationships

428
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 1: can begin and end on text, it's easy to convince

429
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: ourselves that not necessary to send henceforth power parting message

430
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: because we're just like, you know what this is. This

431
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: is disposable. And I have witnessed some of my girlfriends

432
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: who are on tender go through that of the rise

433
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: and quick demise of a text only relationship where they

434
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: can't even get to the in person date, which I

435
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: think also speaks to rules that some psychologists have developed

436
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: of you should you shouldn't text more than X number

437
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: of times before you meet, or else you might just

438
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: never meet in person. Yeah. I remember one like pseudo

439
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: relationship that dude roommate went through where he actually did

440
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: not meet this woman online. He met her quote unquote

441
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: met her through friends and they exchanged emails. We literally

442
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: we had nicknames for each other's like dating partners who

443
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: didn't become relationships, so we called her email girl. And

444
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 1: he literally exchanged emails, like intense long emails with this

445
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: woman for weeks, and then I think they finally met

446
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: and it was like, well, because then it's weird because

447
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: you know so much about the person, but you literally

448
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: have never even shaken hands. Okay, So there is a

449
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: psychological term for that phenomenon, and I wish I could

450
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: remember it off the top of my head, but it

451
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: is verified in research. And I know I'm getting a

452
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: little bit off topic, but it's really fascinating where in

453
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: it is dangerous to engage in that kind of um

454
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: non face to face contact for too long because you

455
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: build up this idea of the other person and it

456
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: kind of makes them a bit loftier than they really are.

457
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: And then when you finally meet, usually more often than not,

458
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: it is a little bit of a dud because you're like, oh,

459
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 1: but we had all this. Oh ways, you're actually like this. Well,

460
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: to bring it full circle, I do believe he ghosted.

461
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: He ghosted it, yeah, and twice twice. Oh yeah, he

462
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: goes to email girl twice. Yeah, because then they came

463
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: back to and then roommate. Oh the webs we weave.

464
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: But ghosting has its defenders because of course there are

465
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: so many pieces about like ghosting is the worst, but

466
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: there are just as many in defense of ghosting. Admittedly,

467
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: click baity blog post across the Internet. Of course, there's

468
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: even an Atlantic think piece about it. I mean, is

469
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: there anything that doesn't have an Atlantic think piece about it?

470
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: In this point I was one of my favorite things

471
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: on the internet. Um. But one of the better ones

472
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: is from two thousand Thirteam over Its Flight, where Amanda

473
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: has claims that unless you are in an established relationship,

474
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: that ghosting is better than the slow fade, which is

475
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: better than directly ending things yeah. She basically says, you

476
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: should know better that because you've established with this other

477
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: person a rhythm of communication, you should know that when

478
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: that rhythm is upset, something is going on. And you know,

479
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: ask yourself, are you the only one who's initiating texts?

480
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: Does it take them forever to respond or they wishy washy?

481
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: Pay attention? Because if these things are true, then the

482
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: other person might not be that into it. And she

483
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: says that the only reason that we were in ghosting

484
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: is because we were hoping for a different outcome. Well,

485
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: of course, of course, And I think the dangers I

486
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: don't disagree with her, but I think that danger zone

487
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: is when your your brain tricks itself so easily into thinking, well, like,

488
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: but things are, things were fine, and then now they're not,

489
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: and so surely like this is just a blip, and

490
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: like they still want to talk to me, but they

491
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: must be busy. And she also wrote something that jumped

492
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: out to me about how quote unquote closure is not

493
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: as useful as we might think it is, because, as

494
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: she writes, the vast majority of explanatory breakup texts are

495
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: just more lives shout out into the cloud in an

496
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: effort to protect us from the sta stickle reality. A

497
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: few casual flings materialized into lasting romantic relationships, and there's

498
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: no particular reason why that's the case. And that's some

499
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: real talk. That is some real talk. Yeah, when she

500
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: said that, I was like, yeah, that's right, because even

501
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: if even if you were literally breaking up face to

502
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: face and you say, you know, but I hope we

503
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: can still be friends now you don't know, uh, you

504
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: know you're a great person. Well clearly not that great,

505
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: you know, like just yeah, save it, just save it.

506
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: And and so I I can understand and respect that.

507
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: But she does say, like, if you're gonna ghost, you

508
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: better ghost hard. You better not like come crawling back

509
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: like we mentioned earlier, like don't ghost and then, oh,

510
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, several months later, when the person has

511
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: started dating someone else, send them a Facebook message telling

512
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: them how much they kick ass and they're so awesome. No,

513
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: that's the way to get yourself sent to Facebook block town. Yeah, yeah,

514
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: I agree that if you're going to go so you

515
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: gotta ghost hard do it. I think that that's like

516
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: way less cruel than coming back, because to me, if

517
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: you ghost on someone and then you come back, that

518
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: just says that you like, don't entirely respect the other

519
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: person because you left them on the back burner, went

520
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: to check out some other options probably and when those

521
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: things fell through, you're like, oh, I got all reliable

522
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: back here. M. Yeah, yeah, I don't like it. I

523
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: don't like it. I mean, there are situations when someone

524
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: needs to ghost a relationship, perhaps because they have stuff

525
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: going on in their personal life. They need to work

526
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: it out, they need to be with themselves and do

527
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: them for a while. And I completely respect that, but

528
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: I think that there's a way to handle that in

529
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: a way that you aren't staying a person along. You

530
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: can be honest, you can't have what is it, a

531
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: power close, um, and you aren't just confusing matters more

532
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: for that other person in the meantime, because Esther Perel

533
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: also pointed out that the power close is also a

534
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: way to help stave off that resent that that like

535
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: almost hatred that can come up when someone's been ghosted,

536
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: because you do feel like I've been tricked, I've been dooped,

537
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: You're getting away with something, um, you know. And and

538
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: so as much as it's understandable that that can be

539
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: a really difficult conversation, for both sides, both parties. Perhaps

540
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: it is a sign of maturity to be able to

541
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: tell the person like, Hey, you know, you're great, you're cool,

542
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: it's just not my thing, not gonna happen. And you

543
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: know what, if you are on the receiving end of

544
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: a power close, I recommend you turn around, put on

545
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: some power clothes, and get back to it. Yeah, just

546
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: put on the blazer with a strong shoulder and you'll

547
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: be fine. Feel great. But we would also be remiss

548
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: to not mention that there is a more serious side

549
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: of ghosting that probably deserves the same kind of media

550
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: attention to the whole ghosting in the context of just

551
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: not texting back after the third date. Because when I

552
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: was researching for this episode, I ended up on a

553
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: really intense Reddit thread about ghosting, and it consisted largely

554
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: of people's stories about quote unquote ghosting, abusive home lives

555
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: and relationships. This is a big deal. This is a

556
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: big deal that I don't think should be clumped in

557
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: with like, oh, we went on some dates and then

558
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: he didn't call me back, Like, this is a huge

559
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: deal for people who are escaping abusive relationships, Like you

560
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: have to be able to safely cut off contact to

561
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: get yourself to a safe place, you know, make sure

562
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: that you're not uh followed or tracked or stocked or

563
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: anything like that. Like, there's so many horrible, dangerous situations

564
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: that people need to be able to extricate themselves from

565
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: that are so much different from the conversation of just dating. Yeah,

566
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: and in a lot of ways, like we could use

567
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: more resources for those kinds of destructive situations when it

568
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: is imperative that you quote unquote ghost because you have

569
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,479
Speaker 1: to disappear. That's the only way that you can remain safe. Yeah. Yeah,

570
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: So kind of a downer note to end it on.

571
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 1: But I think one that is really important that we

572
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: mentioned as well, because there are you know, those scenarios

573
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: are so real and it's not just ghosting from uh,

574
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, romantic relationships, but also a lot of stories

575
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: about people you know, needing to leave abuse of parents

576
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: and other family members. UM. So I really hope that, um,

577
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: if that is resonating with you, um, that there are

578
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: resources available for you and that you've been able to

579
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: find help, and if you need any direction to some resources,

580
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: please don't hesitate to reach out to us. And we'd

581
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: also be interested to hear from our listeners who are

582
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: in same sex relationships. You know, we mentioned earlier on

583
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: the podcast that this is not so much a man

584
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: thing or a woman thing as it tends to be

585
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: just a person who's afraid of conflict thing. So I

586
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: am interested to hear from our listeners in all types

587
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: of relationships. If you've experienced ghosting, if you've been the

588
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: ghost er, and you know what happened. Yeah, I mean

589
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,959
Speaker 1: because according to our somewhat debunked stereotypes, guys and same

590
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: sex relationships would probably goes the most, whereas women in

591
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: same sex relationships would have more power partings, but or

592
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: power parties, I don't know, but we want to hear

593
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: you're ghosting stories because I know y'all got them. Mom

594
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is where you

595
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: can send your emails. You can also tweet us at

596
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook. And we've got

597
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you. And we

598
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break. I have a

599
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: letter here from Vanessa that's referring back to an episode

600
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: in our archive, and she says that ever since your

601
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 1: best for perspective, I've been making my way through your

602
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: last year's episodes, and recently I stumbled upon your Star

603
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: Gazers to part. I found these two episodes particularly interesting

604
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: because I was at one time an aspiring lady astronomer myself.

605
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: I studied physics and astronomy at a well esteem liberal

606
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 1: arts college in the Northeast, completed a prestigious summer research internship,

607
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: and graduated with high honors, and then promptly talked myself

608
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: out of a career in astronomy. What Looking back, I

609
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: think this was due in large part to a dearth

610
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: of role models in the field. The overwhelming majority of

611
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: professors in my stem classes were mail, and as you noted,

612
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: even the rock stars of science communication tend to be men. Moreover,

613
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: astronomy seems to be particularly unkind to women, a fact

614
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: that has been thrust into the public eye lately amidst

615
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: multiple charges of sexual harassment of prestigious universities. At the

616
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: tender age of twenty two, after years and years of

617
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 1: full time schooling, I simply wasn't prepared to embark upon

618
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: the uphill battle I knew I would face if I

619
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: were to continue along in academia. All commately, I did

620
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: find a way to incorporate my love of the cosmos

621
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: as a science writer for a popular astronomy easy and

622
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: currently make my bread and butter doing communications for an

623
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: academic research institute. I do still toy with the idea

624
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: of continuing my schooling and astronomy. As more and more

625
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: women in STEM makes significant inroads in the academic community,

626
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: I feel more and more strongly that I'd like to

627
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: be one of those women who makes entrance into the

628
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: science is easier for the next generation. Your podcast has

629
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: inspired me to start thinking seriously about the next steps

630
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: in my career and the ways that I might be

631
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: able to become the kind of role model that I

632
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: wish I had had access to years ago. Thank you

633
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: for being such fantastic role models yourselves, and for highlighting

634
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: so many powerful, inspiring women every week. Keep up the

635
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: amazing work. Thank you, Vanessa, and you keep up your

636
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 1: work too well. I have an older email here as well,

637
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: from Jill in reference to our podcasts on anxiety, and

638
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: she wrote, I've been an avid listener of your podcast

639
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 1: for years, but this is the first time I decided

640
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: I had to write you thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: your podcast on anxiety to say that it hit home

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Speaker 1: would be an understatement. I'm a thirty six year old

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Speaker 1: woman who has been battling for several years with depression

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Speaker 1: and anxiety, and so many of the points you made

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Speaker 1: were exactly what I grapple with anxiety, hangover check worsen

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Speaker 1: anxiety during the first week of the menstrual cycle check.

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Speaker 1: But this was the first time I had ever heard anyone,

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Speaker 1: including the doctors and therapist I had seen over the years,

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Speaker 1: say so, I've been feeling so alone and just assuming

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Speaker 1: I was broken that there was something wrong with me.

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Speaker 1: Why can't I just be happy? You two gave me hope.

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Speaker 1: The closest thing to a diagnosis I had was long

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Speaker 1: term postpartum depression, but the double guilt factor of both

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Speaker 1: feeling like having my child caused me to slide down

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Speaker 1: the dark side and feeling like a terrible mother have

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Speaker 1: made dealing with all of this even more challenging. I

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Speaker 1: tried to do the math to see if I could

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Speaker 1: tell you both how many women are just like me

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Speaker 1: who heard your podcast and felt acknowledged, because I know

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Speaker 1: there are more of me now. Thank to you, needless

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Speaker 1: to say, I'm grateful and adore you both. For years

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Speaker 1: with all my heart, Jill, Well, thank you, Jill. That

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Speaker 1: means so much that you would take the time to

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Speaker 1: the podcast has been a resource for you, so dear listeners,

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Speaker 1: we want to keep hearing from you as well. Mom

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Speaker 1: stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email

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