1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production at I 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. When I arrived, sales were running a very 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: promotional approach to meeting their jewelry and it was a 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: simple truth and a man ever got down on his knee, 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: put his hand out and said, here, look, darling, I 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: got you a deal. Stop doing that. It doesn't mean 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: that value isn't important, but the brand has to mean 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: something more than just simply bashing out jewelry at low 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: price points. Hi am, Bob Pittman. Welcome to this episode 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: of Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing. 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: On this episode, we have someone who's made his mark 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: in one of the toughest sectors retail, and he brings 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: a wealth of experience and insights for us, the CMO 14 00:00:52,880 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: of Macy's, Rich Lennox. He was born in the UK 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: a military kid. He studied animals in college, worked with 16 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: some big cats at the London Zoo for a year, 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: but wound up in advertising against He joined J Walter 18 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: Thompson right after Sir Martin Sorrel took over and went 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: on to a terrific career in the agency business that 20 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: got him to the US. He was on the de 21 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: beers business and probably knows as much about diamonds as 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: anyone can. From there, he moved on to his first 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: CMO job at sales and eventually to Macy's, where he 24 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 1: has created ads that even Saturday Night Live has parodied. 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: The ultimate mark of success. He loves horses and rugby. 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: Welcome Rich. There's a lot to talk about, but first 27 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: I want to do you in sixty seconds. Ready? Do 28 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: you prefer beer or wine? Twitter or Instagram? Instagram? New 29 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: Jersey or New York, New York, U S or UK US. 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: We won you over twenty years here. I think it's 31 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: about time. Kentucky Derby or Belmont, Belmont Country or City Country, 32 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: lions or horses, horses about to get harder. Secret talent 33 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: staying calm under far I think favorite City Florence. The 34 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: smartest person you know, My dad was probably the smartest 35 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: childhood hero. Chuck Yeager historical idol, probably Nelson Mandela proudest 36 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: career achievement. I think the turn around it Els is 37 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: probably my proudest career achievement to date. Proudest personal achievement. 38 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: My daughter's quote to live by one of my favorite quotes. 39 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: His courage doesn't always rule. Sometimes it's the quiet voice 40 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: at the end of the day saying I will try 41 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: again tomorrow. Who would play you in a movie? Probably Shrek? 42 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: Shrek with an English accent. Let's go for that first 43 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: job consultant. I hated it. I was terrible. Okay, here's 44 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: the last one. What did you want to be when 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: you were growing up? I wanted to either be in 46 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: the military or I wanted to be a vet. I 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: sort of described my career as a sort of bizarre 48 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: series of accidents. After that. I never really imagined myself 49 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: working in corporate and certainly not behind a desk. And 50 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: here you are, and here I am. So with that, 51 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: let's get going. Let's start with Macy's. It's really an 52 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: amazing and historic brand in retailing, and I think it's 53 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 1: probably the only retailer with those really big consumer franchises 54 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: that are actually embedded in American culture. Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, 55 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: Macy's Fourth the July Fireworks, and really the big one, 56 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: your flagship store at Harold Square here in New York. 57 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: You didn't invent these, that you inherited them when you 58 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: took the job. You look at those things, how did 59 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: you think about them. The first thing you think about 60 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: as a marketer is Wow, they're amazing. The Macy's Day 61 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: Parade is sort of unique in the fact that it's 62 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: not something that Macy's writes a check for. It's something 63 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: that Macy's built. We have a parade studio, We engineer 64 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: the flats, we engineer the balloons. The vast majority of 65 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: people who are in the parade are our colleagues and 66 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: our friends. The first thing you do is you begin 67 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: to understand the tradition. What is it that makes it 68 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: so powerful and makes it so beloved by America? Were 69 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: and a half million people on the streets of New York, 70 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: fifty million people spending a very important day with their 71 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: family watching it. Growing up in rural Mississippi in the 72 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and then eighteen sixties, every Thanksgiving, turn on 73 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: the TV. And that's what we did. And I think 74 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: that's as true today as it is for a lot 75 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: of America. It is part of their Thanksgiving a tradition. 76 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: And so my sort of role within both the parade 77 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: and the far work and operating around Harold Squares to 78 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: constantly ask a very talented group of colleagues, how do 79 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: we move from good too extraordinarily good. How do you 80 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: think about what brand permission you have to move it? 81 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: I mean, there's gotta be some limitations, and I suspect 82 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: you've hit some of the boundaries somewhere and something you've done. 83 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: How do you think about that? Your challenge is how 84 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,559 Speaker 1: do you evolve? But mainly true to those core brand 85 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: trees that are sort of bait into the brand's DNA. 86 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: And certainly when I was doing that with de Beers, 87 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: it was something I was very very conscious of. I 88 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: was running a campaign that was ranked as one of 89 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: the top in the last hundred years, a diamond forever, 90 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: So you were seeped in the brand's DNA, and over time, 91 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: and certainly at Macy's in the last three and a 92 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: half years, you begin to get an intuitive grasp for 93 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: what is brand right and what is pushing the boundaries 94 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: a little bit? But every so often you sort of 95 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: have to go and flirt with those boundaries. And I 96 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: think that's what makes it fun. So when you first 97 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: started saying okay, let's think about this or this, did 98 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: it scare people? Yeah? I think so. Macy's was a 99 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: company that had run a very successful retail model for 100 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: a very long time retail marketing model. My job was 101 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: to come in and create an environment where the established 102 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: people stopped the new people doing daft stuff, and the 103 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: new people stopped the established people from doing the same 104 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: old stuff. And that's a very powerful combination if you 105 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: can get it right. But absolutely central to being able 106 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: to create that dynamic is building trust with the teams 107 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: that you're listening to both sides and that you're not 108 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: just going to blow everything up, and that you are 109 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: highly appreciative and respectful of the work that has come 110 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: before you. My job is to carry the torch for them. 111 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: You and the entire Macy's team have been very aggressive 112 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: and clearly spending your time looking through the windshield, not 113 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: obsessed with the rear view mirror. How did these institutions 114 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: like the parade and the fireworks and Harald Square play 115 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: into that plan. We run a complex model that's really 116 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: designed to sort of engage customers, to move them into 117 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: acquisition and then to get them to purchase either on 118 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: the e commerce platform or in the stores. But right 119 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: at the center of it, we have these amazing properties 120 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: that really are huge acts of brand generosity. The fact 121 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: that Macy's puts on a parade for America. For America 122 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: is a hugely generous act. We don't charge anyone any 123 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: money to come and see it. I've always said to people, 124 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: if you can begin to win the emotional high ground 125 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: around brands, a lot of the re engineering we've been 126 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: doing at Macy's is moving it from a transactional model 127 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: to a relationship model. Part of a relationship model is 128 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: making people like you as a brand and listening to 129 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: them and having conversations with them, as opposed to just 130 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: bombarding them with messages. And the best examples of us 131 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: engaging with the public in a really a non commercial 132 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: way is the parade and the fourth of julyfe art Works. 133 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: You're in the middle of many trends of Macy's, and 134 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: we touched on a few of them here, and I 135 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: want to get into that, but first I want to 136 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: rewind the young rich. Let's talk a little bit about 137 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: being a military kid. What branch of the service, by 138 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: the way, was your father in My father was in 139 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: the Royal Air Force. He was an odd combination because 140 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: at the time in the Royal Air Force, although he 141 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: trained as an engineer, they decided that it would be 142 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: a good idea to allow some engineers to fly plane 143 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: so they could get into them to see what was 144 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: wrong with them. They don't do this anymore because it's 145 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: too expensive to train pilots. But because of that, he 146 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: spent time actually flying fast jets, which was amazing, and 147 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: then after a couple of tours of duty, transferred back 148 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: to being an engineer. So I spent three years of 149 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: my life in Sweden, three years of my life freezing 150 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: to death up in Yorkshire, being moved around the country. 151 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: It was an amazing way to grow up. I was very, 152 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: very fortunate to have that childhood. Being a military kid. 153 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,239 Speaker 1: Does that make you different? I think say, military people 154 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: are amazing. They are all about service. It sort of 155 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: ambuse you with a sense of the importance of the 156 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: team and in the Spruto Corps, and even though I 157 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: wasn't in it, I was sort of immersed in that 158 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: from a very very young age. And the other thing 159 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: is you become very flexible because you moved literally every 160 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: eighteen months to three years. Up until I was nine, 161 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: I was moving, and then when I was nine, I 162 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: went away to boarding school, which makes yourself reliant. You 163 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: came of age in the seventies. Can you paint the 164 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: picture of England in the seventies that era? It was 165 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: a tough time. You had thatcher, you had the coal strikes, 166 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: you had the unions. England was tearing herself apart. But 167 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: despite it all the English have an amazing sense of 168 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: human and an amazing sense of resilience. Everything is always understated. 169 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how bad it is. Everything is always understated. 170 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: And that has been a thing that is very much 171 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: in my DNA. Anything from that stage of your life 172 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: that you use today. Absolutely. I spent the majority of 173 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: my youth playing rugby, which I loved. I always can 174 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: help when I work with people, whether they ultimately played 175 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: in team sports or individual stores. It sort of colors 176 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: how people play. Because you're in such a pressure cooker 177 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: in these schools, you have to learn to live with people. 178 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: You have to learn to be accommodating and to be collaborative. 179 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: So off you go to university. Stories are right, You 180 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 1: want to be a vet? I did? And where did 181 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: that come from? I just love animals. I've always loved animals. 182 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: I grew up with labradors and I grew up with horses. 183 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: In England, there was a famous series called James Harriet, 184 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: which was about a Yorkshire vett and the sort of 185 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: trials and tribulations. It was a wonderful series. It was 186 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: a really romanticized view of what being a vet was. 187 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: But the result was, you know, I spent six weeks 188 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: treating ring worm fleas and not romantic. I realized it 189 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: was actually quite a lonely job. That wasn't the type 190 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: of person I was. What in your university years shaped 191 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: you the most and it stays with you today. What 192 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: you gotta understand, it's British univer Steve was very, very 193 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: different to American university. In British university, you essentially teach yourself. 194 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: You turn up to lectures, you have a couple of 195 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: tutorials a month. My professor wouldn't recognized me if his 196 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: life depended on it. Just do what you want to 197 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: do and we'll give you a set of exams at 198 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: the end of the year and if you pass them, 199 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: you get to stay, and if you don't pass them, 200 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: you fail. And it's really sort of entirely up to you. 201 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: But what undoubtedly shaped me it was my friends of 202 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: friendships that I made. So you spent time at the 203 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: London's who with the big cats tend to be some 204 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: That was Corey. That's probably a podcast in itself. Yeah, 205 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: what did you do working with the cats? Well, part 206 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: of my zoology degree in my final year was to 207 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: do a dissertation and I was specializing in behavioral studies, 208 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: and really quite cheekily, I wrote to the head of 209 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: the Zoological Society at London Zoo and basically said, look, 210 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in this phenomenon called stereotypical behavior, which 211 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: is how animals exhibit and relieve stress in a captive environment. 212 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: How do they really manifests a lot through the pace patterns. 213 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: So when you're seeing an animal walk a very repetitive 214 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 1: pattern around its pen is a symptom that it is 215 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: highly stressed and what it's trying to do, if you 216 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: think about it, is get normality. With polar bears, you'll 217 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: see them weaving their head. So I got to spend 218 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: three days a week for about nine and a half 219 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: months working with a young Lana's called Anaka, who was 220 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: an Asiatic line. They are trying to integrate into a 221 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: pride of African lions. Lions are amazing and they are 222 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: so beautiful when you see them up place. Now I 223 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: want to jump a little bit. Time for us to 224 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: get your how I got started in advertising story. Okay, 225 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: you joined j WT just after Sir Martin took over 226 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: and began to build w p P and really was 227 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: a big shift in the advertising industry as a result 228 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: of that. Did you feel like you were at the 229 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: beginning of something big a shift? I joined j WT 230 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: as an account planner, which is basically a business strategist 231 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: or a brand strategist. At the time, JWT had a 232 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: rule that in order to be in the the account 233 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: planning teams the brand strategy teams, you had to have 234 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: ten years industry experience, either as a marketer or an 235 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: advertiser or a media person. And then the guy who 236 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: stepped in to run the department after Stephen King had left. 237 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: Stephen King is like a legend in the advertising industry. 238 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: He basically invented the discipline of account planning. In the UK, 239 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: a guy called David Baker basically decided I'm going to 240 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: see if I can train baby planners. So I was 241 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: an experiment myself and a really good friend with the 242 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: first junior baby planners that they ever brought in to 243 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: train from scratch. Did you prove it work or fail? Well? 244 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: I think my friend proved it work. I think, let's 245 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: put it this way. I didn't mess it up so 246 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: much that no one else ever got the opportunity. But 247 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: my colleague that was brought in, a lady called Mary Stowe, 248 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: went on to be a very very talented planner. And 249 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: when I came into j WC, they sort of looked 250 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: at me and said, look, we could put you an 251 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: account planning or we could put you an account management. 252 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: So I did my first five years in account planning 253 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 1: and then I transferred to account management. How did you 254 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: get an advertising or how do you even think of it? 255 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: It does sound like you had any interest in it 256 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: in high school or college. And why did you pick 257 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: up a magazine and say, yeah, that's me advertising. Well. 258 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: I came out of university and I thought I was 259 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: going to go into the army and do a three 260 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: year short term commission. As luck would have it, I 261 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: kept damaging my shoulder, which meant I couldn't take up 262 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,719 Speaker 1: the short term commission that I was being offered. As 263 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: a stock gap, I joined a company in London that 264 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: was a consultancy and didn't really like that very much. 265 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: And my sister is a graphic designer, was spending a 266 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: lot of time in and around ad agencies and said 267 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: to me, look, you're either going to go off and 268 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: try and be an investment banker, which you will hate, 269 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: or why don't you go and talks some ad agencies. 270 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: It was as simple as that. At the time, advertising 271 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: was amazingly fun. Joining JWT in the late eighties, it 272 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: was like arriving at the end of a really, really 273 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: good party. You realize that there had been one hell 274 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: of a massively fun party, but it was sort of 275 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: waning down. And I think that's what Sorrel did. Sorrel 276 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: came in and took these amazingly creative companies but not 277 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: really very well run companies, and put a lot of 278 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: professional discipline into them. How did you learn advertising? Who 279 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: taught you? Some of the best marketing strategist brains were 280 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: sitting in the Jade pet account planning discipline as I arrived, 281 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: people like f Jenkins and Bernadette Knox, unbelievably talented brand strategists. 282 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: Every lunchtime they used to sit in the open area 283 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: and we'd eat sandwiches and I would just sit there 284 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: and listen to them talk about brand strategy. It was 285 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: like a PhD about how do you create compelling lee 286 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: differentiated brands and how does strategy and creativity play together, 287 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: what's the inside and how do you then find a 288 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: compelling expression of that inside in order to bring those 289 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: brands to ignite in customers minds. And knowing you as 290 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: a marketer, you still use that today. Yeah, they sort 291 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: of ingrained it on me. I was incredibly lucky to 292 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: train that way. A lot of people come in through 293 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: marketing they do junior brand management or they do junior 294 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: account management, and it's there's so much process work in 295 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: doing that. I got injected straight into the strategy side 296 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: of it, which looking back on was just incredibly fortunate 297 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: place to start. So how did you wind up at 298 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: the Beers and Diamonds. I did seven years at JWT London, 299 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: operating across London and Europe, and this was a time 300 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: when JPT London, i think, was ranked as the top 301 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: agency in the world. The Daily Mail used to do 302 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: the top ten favorite campaigns in England. JWT had seven 303 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: of the ten. It was ridiculous. But I always had 304 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: this really huge desire to go to New York to 305 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: come and work in New York. So I went to 306 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: speak to Chris Jones, who was the worldwide head of 307 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: j w T at the time, immensely talented individual and said, 308 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: to anyone, I want to come to New York and 309 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: he said, okay, that's very interesting. Came back to me 310 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: three weeks later and said, actually, we want you to 311 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: go to Tokyo. So I spent two years of my 312 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: life in Tokyo, which was an amazing working on Warner Lambert. 313 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: Warner Lambert was the largest affiliate outside the U ask 314 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: for Japan. I really only wanted to do two years 315 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: because I didn't want to sort of become a far 316 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: Eastern Asian expert. I wanted to come and work in 317 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: New York. And when I came back, Chris Joan said 318 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: to me, I don't have a job for you at 319 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: the moment, but de Beers have just started working with 320 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: being consultants and they need someone who has a sort 321 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: of bran strategy within that pod. Would you want to 322 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: do that? And I said sure, but it really was 323 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: a parking strategy. It was like until another big global 324 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: jw T account came up. I was about thirty one 325 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: thirty two at this stage, and I spent nine months 326 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: working with de Beers and I was walking down the 327 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: corridor one day and they're worldwide. CMO and CEO stopped 328 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: me in the corridor and said, the individual who runs 329 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: the New York operation has just resigned. Would you be 330 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: interested in the job? And I just went sign me up. 331 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: I often think if I hadn't walked down that corridor 332 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: at that moment, what would have life been. Just hold 333 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: on a second, because we've got so much more to 334 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: talk about. We'll be back after a quick break. Welcome 335 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: back to matth and Matt. Let's hear more from my 336 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: conversation with Rich Lennox. Tell us about this iteration of 337 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: a diamonds for every campaign. I mean, we talked earlier 338 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: about the parade, the fireworks. You've got Harold Square. You 339 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: can either be afraid to touch them or you use them. 340 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: And it sounds like you touched a diamonds Forever campaign. 341 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: Talk about it and talk about how you managed to 342 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: persuade people to let you do that and what the 343 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: impact was. The Biers is a really amazing organization, and 344 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: it's a very unusual organization because essentially it was a 345 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: group of miners fused to a group of marketers, so 346 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: they were digging it out of the ground and then 347 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: they were persuading people that they needed it. And all 348 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: of that was done in a j V venture with 349 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: South Africa and Botswana and NBS. So the company that 350 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: was really quite ahead of its time in terms of 351 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: benefication and working to make sure that a natural resource 352 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: was benefiting both the country and being commercially successful. When 353 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: they asked me to come to America, the US market 354 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: had stalled. It was essentially growing out. I think about 355 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: two percent a year at the time of the World's 356 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: wide diamonds were being sold out of America, So that 357 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: was pretty scary. I can remember being briefed by the 358 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: worldwide CMO de Beers, a guy called Stephen Lucia, who's 359 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: immensely talented. Is brief literally was we don't think the 360 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: US market is going to grow much more, but don't 361 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: screw it up. Your job is not to blow it up. 362 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: But when I got there, we started to go, look, 363 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, Diamond Forever is an amazing campaign, but what 364 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,959 Speaker 1: if we built big products stories that went underneath it, 365 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: and what would those products stories be. We started to 366 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: engineer products rather than campaigns. The best example of that 367 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: was The Past, Present Future. We did a lot of 368 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: in depth research with consumers. We actually hypnotize men. I 369 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: kid you not. We kept asking people in quant do 370 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: you agree it's a good idea to give your wife 371 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: a diamond anniversary gift? Yes, I do. Eight percent of 372 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: men agree with that, but only temper cent and member 373 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: actually actioning on it, So there's obviously quite a big gap. 374 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: So we got really fed up with this gap between 375 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: what they were saying and what they are actually doing. 376 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: And so what we did is we arranged a hypnotize 377 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: a group of men, and literally, one of the exercises 378 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: we had them do, we had them say, you're looking 379 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: out over a valley. Imagine that valley is a vision 380 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: of your marriage. Draw a picture. So all the people 381 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: who had given diamond jewelry, you had green pastures, snow 382 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: capped mountains, clouds, and literally some of the guys who hadn't, 383 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: we had volcanoes, rivers with sharks in them. It was 384 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating. But what that led us to do is say, look, 385 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: you can't fix marriages, but what you can do is 386 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: find a very good articulation of what men want to say, 387 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: because men really aren't that articulate, and what we found 388 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: women wanted to hear was I love where we've been, 389 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: I love where we are, and I'm committed to our future. 390 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: That translated into the thought your past, your present, in 391 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: your future, which then translated into a three stone diamond ring, 392 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: which by the way, was fantastic as rather than selling 393 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: one diamond, you're selling the right, and was even more 394 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: fantastic because it was easy to manufacturer. So we essentially 395 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: went on a road show with the trade and basically said, look, 396 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: we think we've got a good idea, and they said, now, 397 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: we've been trying to sell three staying rings forever. They 398 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: don't work. We said, well, what if we called it past, Present, 399 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: future and ran this advertising campaign behind it, and they went, oh, 400 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: that's interesting. So we did it. The trade aligned and 401 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: it became a billion dollar success literally within three months 402 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: of launch. It was unbelievable, But that, to me was 403 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: a good example of how we stopped being marketers and 404 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: what we became is sort of like cultural engineers and 405 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: product engineers to basically, okay, there's a need here, we 406 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: can build a solution and then we can market the 407 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: hell out of it. So let's talk about another solution. 408 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: I love market expansion ideas. Right hand diamond rings. Yeah, 409 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: that turned out to be, what about a three billion 410 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: dollar business? Yeah over time. Yeah. Who came up with 411 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,719 Speaker 1: that idea? I mean it sounds like a risky idea. 412 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: That was a really interesting one because essentially mines are 413 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: on per pictable things. One month they'll be producing lots 414 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: of large, rough diamonds that cut to one carrots, and 415 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: then they can suddenly start producing a whole little diamonds. 416 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: The beers basically, we're producing too many small diamonds and 417 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: we needed to find a way to create some market 418 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: velocity underneath them. Someone had the really revolutionary breakthrough observation 419 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: that women have two hands. The left hand could be 420 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: about commitment marriage, and the right hand could be an 421 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: expression of the individual taste and who I am. When 422 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: we initially went to the beers and said, we've got 423 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: this idea, we're going to make the right hand about 424 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: self expression. You can buy it yourself. It's very design intensive, 425 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: which is great because that will use lots of little stones. 426 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: A lot of the de Beers people thought it was heresy. 427 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: They were like, hang, on a minute, A diamond is forever, 428 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: It's all about love women buying rings from them. That 429 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,239 Speaker 1: this sounds ridiculous now, but you know we're dealing in 430 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, and there was a lot of nervousness 431 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: around the idea. So of course we did the sensible thing. 432 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: We went and spoke to women, and women went, don't 433 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: be ridiculous. I can absolutely reconcile in my mind that 434 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: there are diamonds that are brought for love and there 435 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: are doumonds that vought a self expression. That's a great idea. 436 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: Let's do it so on the simple premise of torture 437 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: your customer. Don't go in with preconceived ideas. That was 438 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: a really good example. And then the creative team came 439 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 1: up with this really really good idea of women in 440 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: the world razor right hand. It was a beautifully crafted 441 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: campaign with great product that really it was sort of 442 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: pushing on an open door. That's a great case study 443 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: for market extension. Let's go to a case study for transformation. 444 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: Turnaround two thousand nine. You make a jump, but this time, 445 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: Mr Client, your first CMO job sales, you had fourteen 446 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: consecutive quarters of positive comparable same store sales growth until 447 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: Sales actually was acquired in two thousand fourteen. How did 448 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: you do it? I mean, this is your first time 449 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: in the lane. Now it's you're the client, you're making 450 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: the cause. What did you do well? Firstly, I was 451 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: hired by a really, really talented CEO, Theo Killian, just 452 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: an enormously talented, generous, smart leader that makes all the 453 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: difference in the world. And second, if you're going to 454 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: get involved in turnarounds, you have to be good in 455 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: a firefight. You have to be the type of person 456 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: who actually runs towards far as rather than away from them. 457 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: And you've got to have that sort of combination of 458 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: arrogance and naivety. Arrogance that you can succeed where others 459 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: fell and naivety that you can succeed where others have failed. 460 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: There's a very talented group of people who were brought 461 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 1: in to help fix a very beaten up company. But 462 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the sort of the 463 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: core of the brand was still there. We started to 464 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: do things, really the simple things, and I took a 465 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: lot of the lessons from the beers and that made 466 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: the transition easier because I understood the category. When I arrived, 467 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: sales were running a very promotional approach to meeting their 468 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: jewelry and it was a simple truth. And a man 469 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: ever got down on his knee, put his hand out 470 00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: and said, here, look, darling, I got you a deal. 471 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: Stop doing that. It doesn't mean that value isn't important, 472 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: but the brand has to mean something more than just 473 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: simply bashing out jewelry at low price points. I was 474 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: very lucky and the fact that THEO absolutely got on 475 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: board with that very quickly. A chief merchandizing officer, Gil 476 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: Hollander got on board with that very very quickly. Zelles 477 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: was a case study of a small company. I mean 478 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,239 Speaker 1: it was about two billion dollars. It wasn't big in 479 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: real trouble, but a team of people coming together and going, 480 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: we're going to get this done. And we're going to 481 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: get this done because it's not just about share price, 482 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: but it's about people's mortgages and it's about car payments. 483 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: There is a responsibility here as a group of leaders 484 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 1: to get this right for the people that work for us. 485 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: There were seventeen thousand people that worked at Zelles and 486 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: one of my proudest things is that the first year 487 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: I was there, there was a barely significant riff, and 488 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: then there was never one after that, So we got 489 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: it right. What Zales allowed me to do is not 490 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: just be a marketer. It was about brand engineering, It 491 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: was about business engineering. It was about team dynamics. You 492 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: spread your wings a little more. You jumped from this category. 493 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: You're comfortable with being the CMO at toys r US 494 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: for two years? Yeah, one insight? Did you get there? 495 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: Did you still keep with you today? As a marketer? 496 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: Toys r Us was an amazing brand and it had 497 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: some really talented people working at it, but it was 498 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: laboring under a debt burden that was just crippling, just 499 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: absolutely huge, And I think it was a sort of 500 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: victim of the acquisition models that were developed in the 501 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: early two thousands, which made a lot of people a 502 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: lot of money, but left the companies that were standing 503 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: really really struggling. I've been in the jewelry industry, in 504 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: the diamond industry for about fifteen years with to Beers 505 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: and with Cells, and what I needed to prove to 506 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 1: myself was that I could take the core marketing skills 507 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: as a CMO and transfer them to a category that 508 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: was about plastic and I p ideas. So I went 509 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: from talking to diamond suppliers to Disney or Hasbro or Mattel, 510 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: and I learned a lot of good lessons. Some of 511 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: them were very useful, some of them would don't do 512 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: that again. Those are usually the best lessons we they 513 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: really are. So we're back to Macy's. Yeah it's two 514 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen. Yeah, you're in the new CMO. Yeah, 515 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: you made some big changes early on. Can you describe them? 516 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about the big successes and also 517 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: talk about some of the things you tried it didn't work. 518 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: When I joined Macy's, I was sort of the first 519 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: external C suite how they're brought in in a long time. 520 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 1: Macy's has been enormously successful as a retailer. I mean 521 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: they were putting on astronomical growth rates right up until 522 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: about and they've been doing that by running a very 523 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: high frequency promotional transactional model that was really the absolute 524 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 1: central core of their marketing model. And what we started 525 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: to talk about was this isn't the old model was wrong. 526 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: It's just it doesn't work today. And it doesn't work 527 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: today because the media landscape is changing. So we can't 528 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: run the same model. The media vehicles that we need 529 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: were beginning to falter underneath them if we were going 530 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: to run that same model. Consumers shopping habits are changing profoundly, 531 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: so we need to invent a new model. We said, look, 532 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: we've got to get out of the transactional business and 533 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: we've got to get into the relationship business. And that 534 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: really then said, okay, if we're going to design a 535 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: marketing model that's predicated on building strong customer relationships and 536 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: looking at CLV rather than what was the last transaction 537 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: that you did, then lots of things flowed out of that. 538 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: We had to launch our own loyalty program. At the time, 539 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: we were part of the Annex assortium around plenty, and 540 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: we had to exit that and launch our star Wards program. 541 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: We had to start not just offering things at alert price. 542 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: We had to talk about our product and editorial authority, 543 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,479 Speaker 1: reinforce the fact that Macy's has got good stuff so 544 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: that when we put it on discount, that pulls harder. 545 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: And when we put it on discount, there's a model 546 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: where our best customers can be constantly engaged. Brian the 547 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: brand and then sort of on top of that we 548 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: had to blend in the parade and everything like that 549 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: and all make it sort of work together. One of 550 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: the things I love about retailer is the marketing ecosystem 551 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: is so incredibly complex. You have a high frequency promotional 552 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: model which changed weekly. You then have a loyalty model 553 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: and a credit model lead into a product authority in 554 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: a brand model with co op running right through the middle. 555 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: It an e coom demand tactics on the other side. 556 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: So what that does is it creates almost like a 557 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: Rubik's cube of decisions that you have to flex between 558 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: in order to get the optimum balance in your marketing models, 559 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: and that Rubik's cube will flex based on the cycle 560 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: that you're in in that year. The Rubik's cue position 561 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: that works a Black Friday looks nothing like the Rubik's 562 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: cube that you're running for full fashion or Spring fashion. 563 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: So it's a sort of endlessly fascinating ecosystem to try 564 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: and get that perfect point of calibration in which, of 565 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: course you never succeed in getting the hallmarks of your career. 566 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: Seemed to be big ideas transformation, not afraid to take 567 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: a chance. Probably many of things don't work, but as 568 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: you say you learn a lot from it. I know 569 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: that's kind to be scary to the people there. You've 570 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: alluded to it a couple of times here. What kind 571 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: of culture is necessary? What kind of culture you have 572 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: to build within the marketing group? And what can I 573 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: culture does the company have to have to allow those 574 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: things to happen. Well, I think the role of cmos 575 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: today is to do two things. You call it maths 576 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: and magic. I call it the art of persuasion and 577 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: the art of precision targeting. But what cmos also have 578 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: to do is they have to be able to talk 579 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: to their peers in the c suite, particularly the CF 580 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: and CFO, and translate what marketing is doing into business results. 581 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: You have to be able to explain how you are 582 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: driving marketing productivity and the investment decisions that you are 583 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: making across complex media ecosystems and complex marketing tasks in 584 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: order to make sure that every dollar we spend is 585 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: returning as highly as it possibly can. And you have 586 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: to be brave in those decisions because I don't know 587 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: many more cutters today, if any, who are getting budget increases, 588 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: which means that you've got to bring analytical teams and 589 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: data science and all of the things that allow you 590 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: to make data driven decisions around your marketing decisions. And 591 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: then at the end of the day, you've got to 592 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: understand is you can have the best targeting in the world, 593 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: you can have the best decision and you can have 594 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: the best personalization. If you don't have good ideas to 595 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: put through them, you are minimizing the impacts of this campaigns. 596 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: I forget who said it, but it's absolutely true. The 597 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: best way to make a smaller budget work harder has 598 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: had bigger ideas, and I think part of that is 599 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: because I came from a culture where ideas were absolutely king, 600 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: and I saw the power of big ideas to transform businesses. 601 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: I'd like to get some insights what is different about 602 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: being on the client side from being on the agency side. 603 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: You've done both successfully. Agency side, you have a responsibility, 604 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: but you don't have the same degree of accountability. I 605 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: also think agency side the sheer breadth of marketing disciplines 606 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: that now in play, the involvement marketing and ad tech. 607 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: Cmos and senior plant leaders have to be such really, 608 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: really good generalists. Now, creativity and production of content is 609 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: a very small component of what we actually do. It's 610 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: a very important component, but it is a small component. 611 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: How has that changed what you look for in an 612 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: agency partner. That's a really good question. First and foremost. 613 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: They have to be capable of creating big ideas that 614 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: just have the ability to go wow, I would have 615 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: never thought of that. That's fantastic. And the relationship discipline 616 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: to push you when you need to be pushed and 617 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: listen when you're going well, I know what I'm about 618 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: to do is a bit daft, but bear with me. 619 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: There are methods in the madness that I think requires 620 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: really good account management skills. You have to be able 621 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: to push on people but at the same time support them. 622 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: When you work with the good account leaders, they are 623 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: exceptionally good at doing that. If you could give some 624 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: advice to your eighteen year old stelf thinking back, looking back, 625 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: what would it be, don't worry so much, take risks. 626 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: And I think one of the things I'm proudest in 627 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: my career is I have taken sort of risks. I've 628 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: done things that people said to me at the time, 629 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: we're best silly, but worse foolish. What advice would you 630 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: give for somebody who would like to be a CMO 631 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: of a major brand like you. Cmos have to do 632 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: two things simultaneously. They have to be, for want of 633 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: a better word, a really good cheerleader within an organization. 634 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: And they have to be able to be very quick 635 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: learners and editors. They need to be able to come 636 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: into a room add value to a conversation that they 637 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: have not necessarily been part of. You've got to be 638 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: fast enough on your feet, really good understanding of brand management, 639 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: really good understanding of consumer insight generation, and a really 640 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: good understanding of how you work with creatives to edit 641 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: good ideas, and then really good understanding of media and 642 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: investment decisions. So you've got to chase breadth of experience, 643 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: not just depth of experience. Because the role is so 644 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: broad now and has so many disciplines within it, you're 645 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: never going to be the master of all of them, 646 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: but you've got to have a pretty good working knowledge 647 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: of most of them. And then you find people who 648 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: are subject matter expertise and you figure out a way 649 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: to work with them in a way that empowers them. 650 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: We always in math and magic. With math and magic shoutouts, 651 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: you've seen a lot of marketing and business folks who 652 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: is the best one. On the analytic side of the 653 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: math side of the marketing equation, people like Terry Prue. 654 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: We're really at the forefront, really beginning to develop the 655 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: marketing mixed models that we all now take for granted. 656 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: Give us the best. Now on the magic side, the 657 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: creative there's just some campaigns that I absolutely admire. The 658 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: amazing old campaigns. You know Nike when it first came 659 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: out we just did. Is that amazing book that Scott 660 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: Bedbry wrote about the origin of the just dird idea? 661 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: That campaign was. I wanted to get inta appetizing Rich, 662 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: You've got a great story, you tell it well. The 663 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: accent helps. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much. 664 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: There are a few things I picked up in my 665 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation with Rich. One, don't just be a marketer, be 666 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: a cultural engineer and the beer's. Rich saw an opportunity 667 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: to help men do a better job articulating their feelings. 668 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: So he created a product, the three Diamond Ring, and 669 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: a campaign past, present, future around it to talk to 670 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: your customer without preconceived notions. When Rich's team talked to 671 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: women about their desire for self expression, it led to 672 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: a whole new product the right hand diamond ring, which 673 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: became a cultural phenomenon, not to mention a business success. 674 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: Three ideas are still king, As Rich says, you need 675 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: data to translate marketing into business results, but without big 676 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: ideas behind them, the data is useless. Just look at 677 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: what he's done at Macy's. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. 678 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening 679 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: to Math and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. 680 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: This show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to 681 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which 682 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: is no small feat Nikkiatore for pulling research bill plaques, 683 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 1: and Michael Asar for their recording help, our editor, Ryan Murdoch, 684 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: and of course Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and 685 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until 686 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: next time,