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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your Host Alisa Donovan. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the very first episode of the Killer Thriller Podcast.

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Speaker 2: I am your host, Elisa Donovan, and I am so

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Speaker 2: excited to start this journey. Killer Thriller is going to

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Speaker 2: explore the dramatizations of real life crimes through the lens

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Speaker 2: of the actors, creators, and the people whose stories make

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Speaker 2: it onto the screen. And we're really going to dive

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Speaker 2: into how real human behavior, often extreme and sometimes horrifying,

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Speaker 2: can get transformed into character, performance, and narrative.

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Speaker 3: And I cannot express how.

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Speaker 2: Thrilled I am that Today this very first episode, we

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Speaker 2: are going to speak with the creators of the Murdoch Podcast,

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Speaker 2: Mandy Mattney and Liz Ferrell. These women are incredible journalists

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Speaker 2: who broke open the case. So their podcast, the Murdoch

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Speaker 2: Murders Podcast, is what inspired this series, Murdoch Death in

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Speaker 2: the Family, and that is what we're going to be

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Speaker 2: talking about today. Mandy is the executive producer of Murdoch

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Speaker 2: Death in the Family, which is streaming on Hulu right now, and.

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Speaker 3: Let's bring him in.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Hi, how are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm great.

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Speaker 2: How are you.

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Speaker 4: I'm really good. It's so nice to meet you.

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Speaker 2: It is such a pleasure to meet you, Mandy. I'm

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Speaker 2: me Lisa. I'm wildly proud to meet the two of you.

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Speaker 2: And I really want to say how when we first

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Speaker 2: started talking about doing this podcast, I said, we have

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Speaker 2: to start with Murdoch Death in the family. That's what

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Speaker 2: I want to start with, because you know this series

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Speaker 2: of particular, it embodies to me everything that that matters

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Speaker 2: about these sorts of stories. There is such an utter

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Speaker 2: respect for everyone who's involved, and the drive to tell

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Speaker 2: the emotional truth of the story and really diving into

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Speaker 2: the nuance and the complexity of every person involved really,

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Speaker 2: which I think is quite a feat somehow. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: the family dynamics, the problems with growing up with generational

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Speaker 2: wealth and no accountability, and the list just is endless.

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Speaker 3: And so I'm.

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Speaker 2: Really truly thrilled that you two are taking your time

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Speaker 2: with me today.

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Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 4: That was thank you. That was so nice.

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Speaker 5: And I have to say I watched Clueless last night

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Speaker 5: just for a refreshure.

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Speaker 3: Toeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I meant to rewatch Sabrina the Teenage Witch

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Speaker 5: because that was also one of my favorites when I

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Speaker 5: was a little girl.

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Speaker 4: So this is awesome.

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Speaker 5: So we really appreciate all everything that you just said.

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Speaker 5: It's been quite a feat, but we're here and we're

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Speaker 5: ready to dive in all.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to note that I saw Clueless

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Speaker 1: in the theater, so.

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Speaker 3: I love it. We're all old, but I'm a lot

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Speaker 3: older than the two of you.

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Speaker 4: That's your skin looks so good. I'm so jealous.

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Speaker 2: Oh listen, a little tweak on the filter of zoom

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Speaker 2: does like wonders for.

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Speaker 1: All of us.

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Speaker 4: I need to get that figured out.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to say first because it's top of mind.

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Speaker 2: This is not what I was planning to start with,

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Speaker 2: but I saw on Instagram last night, Mandy, your post

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Speaker 2: that it was the anniversary of your brother's passing, and

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that that piece was real from your life,

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Speaker 2: that that part.

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Speaker 3: Of that scene in the series came from you.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that. So first I wanted to just

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Speaker 2: express my condolences to you. And I know grief is

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Speaker 2: a very rollercoaster of a journey and it never really ends,

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Speaker 2: and so I just want to send my love to

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Speaker 2: you on that. But I also wondering if you are

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Speaker 2: willing to just talk a little bit about that, And

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Speaker 2: I think you were saying that Britney really helped to

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Speaker 2: keep that in there.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, gosh, And I thank you for asking that, because

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Speaker 5: I've done a ton of interviews about murdoc death in

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Speaker 5: the family and nobody has asked about that. And I

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Speaker 5: really want to talk about that scene. I love that scene.

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Speaker 5: It meant so much to me and I actually got

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Speaker 5: to watch Brittany perform that scene. But circling back when

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Speaker 5: I first met Britney and she first called me, when

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Speaker 5: it was like a green light that it was for

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Speaker 5: real she was playing me, which by the way, was

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Speaker 5: like the most insane moment of my life.

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Speaker 2: That was going to be my question later of like

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Speaker 2: did you just completely freak O out when it was like,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, Britney, Snow's gonna be me.

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Speaker 5: I mean, yes, I am a typical millennial girly, like

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Speaker 5: I grew up watching John Tucker Must Die and Pitch

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Speaker 5: Perfect and all of her hits, and I'm obsessed with

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Speaker 5: her and I and also this we found all of

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Speaker 5: us out before the Hunting Wives came out, and she

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Speaker 5: like blew up again.

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Speaker 4: Which I'm so happy that she did.

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Speaker 5: She has the career that she deserves right now, and

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Speaker 5: I just absolutely love her and could not imagine a

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Speaker 5: better person to play me. And I really do mean that,

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Speaker 5: and this story is a part of that. So she

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Speaker 5: she wanted to call me the first time that we

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Speaker 5: connected on Instagram, and she was like, I just want

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Speaker 5: to get to know you. I want to have Margarita's

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Speaker 5: with you and Liz, because she read that in my

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Speaker 5: book that that's how Liz and I used to like

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Speaker 5: dissect cases over Margarita's. She devoured my book and like

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Speaker 5: days and when she called me, she knew that much

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Speaker 5: about my life and was wanting to ask me questions

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Speaker 5: about my brother's death, which was just, you know, surprising

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Speaker 5: and really really refreshing to hear that she wanted to

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Speaker 5: dive that deep into my character. You know, she wasn't

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Speaker 5: just glossing over everything, and this wasn't a huge part

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Speaker 5: for her. She wasn't a main role or anything, but

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Speaker 5: she she not only knew the entire podcast, but she

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Speaker 5: knew my story and there were I don't know how

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Speaker 5: much I can say about this, but there was a

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Speaker 5: lot of debate back and forth within Hulu about how

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Speaker 5: much of a role I should have in the show,

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Speaker 5: because I was also an executive producer, and I know

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Speaker 5: that they were a little weird the higher ups about

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Speaker 5: me having a storyline and how much of it. But

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Speaker 5: Brittany advocated for the scene where I am at Steven's

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Speaker 5: memorial and mentioning my brother's death, and the speech was

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Speaker 5: actually longer and it was even better, and they cut

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Speaker 5: some of it and it made her really mad and

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Speaker 5: she fought really hard to get the whole thing in.

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Speaker 5: And but my gosh, like to have as you know,

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Speaker 5: as an actor, they don't have to do that much.

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Speaker 4: They don't have to. They don't have to, but the

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Speaker 4: good ones do.

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Speaker 5: And I just was so grateful that I had such

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Speaker 5: a good actor that cared so much about my story.

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Speaker 5: And she actually texted me to apologize that the scene

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Speaker 5: was cut.

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Speaker 4: Like it was her fault, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: my gosh, no, But.

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Speaker 2: I mean this is like welcome to Hollywood, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: so frustrating in so many ways. There's so many beautiful

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Speaker 2: things that come out of you know, this world, but

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's like you watch something and as an actor,

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Speaker 2: this has happened to be a million times I'm like, oh, that.

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Speaker 3: Whole scene's gone.

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Speaker 2: But when I come to the one where I was

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Speaker 2: in the bathroom, you know, it's so like these things

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Speaker 2: they really do, they're hard. It's like, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they say like killing your babies, but it's like a

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Speaker 2: inevitably everything always serves the story, like that's the goal,

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Speaker 2: and that lesson that piece of having to let go

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Speaker 2: of certain things in order to drive something forward.

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Speaker 3: You kind of over.

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Speaker 2: Time see oh okay, I understand why they had to

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Speaker 2: do that, you know, but that is a real challenge.

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Speaker 2: So for both of you, this is one of my

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Speaker 2: biggest questions of how how hard was it or enlightening

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Speaker 2: or beautiful was it to watch these things both in

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Speaker 2: the process but then the finished product of saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: you got you women lived this in such a real way,

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Speaker 2: and there has to be sort of a like how

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Speaker 2: was it to watch these people embody these people that

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Speaker 2: many of whom you.

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Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, I don't think the first thing. That's so

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Speaker 1: I still haven't gotten the connection here. But we used

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Speaker 1: to sit and joke about this being a TV show

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Speaker 1: one day the work we were doing, like and not

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Speaker 1: with any sort of sense of it even though like

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Speaker 1: hopes and dreams and like you do hope one day

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Speaker 1: maybe that your work is that important or consequential that

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Speaker 1: it does end up in that format. It just I

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Speaker 1: still haven't I still haven't grasped that that, like Liz

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Speaker 1: and Mandy like back then, I just want to like

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Speaker 1: time travel and be like it's gonna happen.

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Speaker 3: Actually a joke that like warms my heart.

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Speaker 2: But I really feel like these are the things that

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm gonna don't want to get too woo

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Speaker 2: woo about this, but I really do believe there are

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Speaker 2: certain things that are meant to happen, certain people that

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Speaker 2: are meant to meet, projects that are meant to go,

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Speaker 2: like all of these kinds of things, and this clearly

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Speaker 2: is something that it was meant to be.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I've just rewatched as much as I could.

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Speaker 2: I had already seen the series, but I rewatched most

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Speaker 2: of it last night and this morning. And the scene

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Speaker 2: towards the end where Mandy you and Mark and he

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Speaker 2: he asks you if you feel guilty, and I felt

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Speaker 2: the same way, like Britney's expression is like what you know,

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Speaker 2: this sort of like of all the things that I

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Speaker 2: could feel because it just feels so vital what the

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Speaker 2: two of you did.

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Speaker 3: But again, that nuance. This is something that I think

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Speaker 3: this series.

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Speaker 2: Does so beautifully is it captures that nuance of he

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Speaker 2: can feel a little guilty, Like that's a real feeling

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Speaker 2: for this man. Perhaps you know that because you don't.

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Speaker 2: Nobody it's all so awful, but it's important to bring

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Speaker 2: all the things to light, like the justice was served

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Speaker 2: because of all of you.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you for that.

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Speaker 5: And that scene is another really interesting tidbit that the

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Speaker 5: writers obviously and that I never knew how you make

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Speaker 5: a true crime and actual true crime into a TV

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Speaker 5: show and like what needs to be factual and what changes.

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Speaker 5: But our amazing creator and showrunner Michael D. Fuller always

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Speaker 5: stuck to the concept of emotional truth and that was

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Speaker 5: true throughout the show, and so there was always an

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Speaker 5: emotional truth to every little part of the show, including

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Speaker 5: that scene. And it was funny, like Mark Tinsley never

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Speaker 5: asked me that question, but I actually got that question

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Speaker 5: in a twenty twenty interview.

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Speaker 3: In me know because I can imagine that, like what it.

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Speaker 5: Was my first interview ever, and like I was so

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Speaker 5: nervous and I had been interviewing with twenty two. I

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Speaker 5: think it was like two hours, and it was I

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Speaker 5: was just a nervous wreck, and then the last question

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Speaker 5: was that and I just was like and home.

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Speaker 4: I mean, thank god for everybody.

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Speaker 5: I think that they did not include it in the show,

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Speaker 5: but I kind of want that footage to see my face,

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Speaker 5: my reaction because I was like, it was just like

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Speaker 5: Brittany's like no, but they wanted to include somebody asking

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Speaker 5: me that question because that was a real question that

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Speaker 5: we got and we still to this day.

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Speaker 4: Liz.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know about you, but I still

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Speaker 5: get weird messages that are like, yeah, if you I got.

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Speaker 5: I got a weird TikTok comment the other day that

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Speaker 5: was like, if you didn't poke around and get into

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Speaker 5: the Murdoch's business, then Maggie or Paul would be alive.

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Speaker 1: Of the Lord.

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Speaker 2: And I would love to take not that we want

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Speaker 2: to give anybody the time of day who does these

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Speaker 2: sorts of things on the other but I would love

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Speaker 2: to take that like that idea, right, take it all

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Speaker 2: the way to the end. Okay, great, So let's say

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Speaker 2: you didn't do that the trail of other like deceit

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Speaker 2: deception and death and pain and brutality that would have

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Speaker 2: come anyway, It just would it would be a different

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Speaker 2: shade of it. Like this man was was an abomination.

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Speaker 2: He was doing horrible things and there was he was

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Speaker 2: not going to stop doing those things unless someone prohibits him.

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Speaker 3: So I just like that stuff makes me crazy.

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Speaker 1: I think, well, that conversation that happened between Andy and

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Speaker 1: Mark on screen happened between Mark and me behind the scenes,

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Speaker 1: So I think that there's sort of like a combination

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Speaker 1: had right, Yeah, there was a It was a concern,

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Speaker 1: and not because of anything that I think, I mean, Bear,

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Speaker 1: It's just it was just something that comes up. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's what it's important about the way this

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Speaker 1: show is handled, and it really honors the point of

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Speaker 1: our journalism, which is that and this is how this

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Speaker 1: podcast started, by the way that Mandy started this podcast

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Speaker 1: to clear the to get the truth out there, to say,

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Speaker 1: this isn't just a true crime story that you can

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Speaker 1: fly in clever the most salacious aspects of and think

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Speaker 1: that you got the story. And you certainly could do that,

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Speaker 1: but with this case, there were so much more to understand,

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Speaker 1: and Martinsley certainly understood it, which is that the entire economy,

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Speaker 1: social economy, legal economy in that area relied on the

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Speaker 1: Murdocks and was controlled by the Murdocks, and in the

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Speaker 1: most silent of ways. So it's not like you can say,

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Speaker 1: and you saw it in the conversation that Ellak had

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Speaker 1: with his mother's caretaker. It's not a direct like I

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Speaker 1: need you to lie for me. It's a you know

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Speaker 1: it a lie for me. And you know, because I'm

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Speaker 1: saying these things if you were to repeat them back

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Speaker 1: and harassed you. So that's kind of what people in

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Speaker 1: the area were dealing with. And we lived an hour

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Speaker 1: and a half from Hampton, but we were in the

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Speaker 1: judicial circuit, so we knew it was affecting law enforcement

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Speaker 1: in our area as well. So it's something that I mean,

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Speaker 1: eighty six years, one hundred years of this kind of

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Speaker 1: informal rule kind of to capture that. I think that's

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Speaker 1: the success of death in the Family because it's not

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Speaker 1: just something that is about a dirty man who you know,

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Speaker 1: exciting his staff and he kills his family. It's really

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Speaker 1: just to understand the amount of pressure that was on

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Speaker 1: that man and self created totally right, and why he

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Speaker 1: would think that was a good solution to his problems.

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Speaker 2: These things and so easily be sensationalized, and this show

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Speaker 2: is not that. So I'm curious about how you both.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure were you just approached by a million showrunners

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Speaker 2: and writers and TV people going let me make your story.

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Speaker 2: And how did you wind up with Aaron and Michael?

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Speaker 2: I can tell you that cast from every obviously you know,

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Speaker 2: Jason Clark and Patrisharquette and Brittany are so well known

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Speaker 2: and so incredible. It's like a perfect cast. So how

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Speaker 2: did you guys come to Michael and Aaron?

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Speaker 5: So in twenty twenty one, Liz was working at the

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Speaker 5: Sheriff's office when my husband and I started the podcast,

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Speaker 5: but she was definitely with me behind the scenes for everything.

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Speaker 5: For every phone call that I would get from weirdos,

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Speaker 5: I would call them Hollywood weirdos like they write, and

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Speaker 5: I would call her and like be like this guy,

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Speaker 5: and she would be like, don't call them back, and.

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Speaker 1: This little town girl like this.

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Speaker 5: And they said the most insulting things to me, like

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Speaker 5: they just thought that I. Yeah, they thought I was

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Speaker 5: just this little small town journalist who had big dreams

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Speaker 5: of living in New York. City and one of literally

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Speaker 5: people said that to me and really just want and

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Speaker 5: like they really thought I just wanted to get out

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Speaker 5: of South Carolina. And I'm like, I really like it here,

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Speaker 5: Like I don't like the politics, but like I live

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Speaker 5: on a Hilton Head It's a nice area, right.

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Speaker 4: I like my life here and I like what I do.

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Speaker 1: I just.

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Speaker 5: Anyways, we and my husband was amazing. My husband was,

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Speaker 5: uh there is Covid was not full time working at

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Speaker 5: the time, but he just kind of figured out how

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Speaker 5: to navigate Hollywood.

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Speaker 4: He was a genius about it.

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Speaker 5: He would take phone calls with people just to like

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Speaker 5: learn the language, see yeah, or learn like the linga

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Speaker 5: that y'all use that like nobody else understands.

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Speaker 4: He would take like spocan years, may see what it is. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And so we spent kind of a whole summer just

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Speaker 5: taking meetings and phone calls from people, and and then

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Speaker 5: in September of twenty twenty one, everybody was still kind

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Speaker 5: of on the fence, like maybe I'll do a documentary,

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Speaker 5: maybe I'll do a show.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: In September twenty twenty one, when Alex Murdoch faked his

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Speaker 5: little roadside shooting debacle, and that was just ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: The story would not be crazy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah right, it's whenever I say it out loud, I'm like,

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Speaker 5: when that happened, it's so stupid. But when that happened,

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Speaker 5: this story went from zero to two thousand, Like it

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Speaker 5: exploded into the outer universe in a way that I

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Speaker 5: had never seen anything before in my life. And so

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Speaker 5: at that point, all of these people, all these documentary people,

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Speaker 5: were like, it's go time, we.

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Speaker 4: Need to we need you to sign and.

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Speaker 5: Everybody was just kind of swooping in and hovering over

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Speaker 5: us and pressuring us, and it was really weird. And

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Speaker 5: at that point we decided to get an agent, this

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Speaker 5: man named Neil Cohen, which I know people go back

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Speaker 5: and forth about agents. He was at UTA at the time.

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Speaker 5: He saved our lives because he, like these people were

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Speaker 5: pressuring us, specifically documentary people were pressuring us to sign

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Speaker 5: the sign away everything and be a consultant to them.

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Speaker 5: And it was on a Saturday, and I will never

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Speaker 5: forget and we and he was just calling and calling

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Speaker 5: and was like you need to sign now. It's now

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Speaker 5: or never, Mandy, and like and if you don't sign this,

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Speaker 5: your career is over like those types of things. So

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Speaker 5: we actually hired Neil in the first thing that he

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Speaker 5: did was email this guy back on a Saturday. It

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Speaker 5: is Saturday period. No one in Hollywood needs anything right now.

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Speaker 5: That's so great, it's a Saturday period, and we were

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Speaker 5: like hired. Anyways, Neil connected us with Aaron Lee Carr. Neil.

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Speaker 5: One of Neil's clients was Aaron Lee Carr, an amazing

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Speaker 5: documentarian and Liz and I had been watching her documentaries

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Speaker 5: for years and Liz, what was your.

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Speaker 3: Reaction which documentaries she done?

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Speaker 1: Well, Heart's of Gold was the one that really pushed

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Speaker 1: me over the edge. Mommy Dead and Dearest, which I

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Speaker 1: believe that's what it's the Gypsy Lee Rose story.

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Speaker 4: There was another one, Mandy, I Love.

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Speaker 1: God, I love you now Die is so good. If

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Speaker 1: you haven't seen it.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I didn't realize.

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Speaker 4: So that britneyears, Yeah, Britney versus spears.

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Speaker 5: So we knew her from all of it because we

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Speaker 5: were like obsessed with these documentaries that she'd done, and

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Speaker 5: we had talked about them all at great length with

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Speaker 5: each other, and I remember being so nervous to meet

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Speaker 5: her for the first.

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Speaker 4: Time, and.

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Speaker 5: When I first met her, it was originally we were

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Speaker 5: talking about doing a documentary, but Aaron got the idea of, like,

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Speaker 5: I want to do something besides document what if it

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Speaker 5: was a scripted show. And then through that she met

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Speaker 5: Michael D. Fuller, who is not only a great guy

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Speaker 5: and a really great writer, but he's from South Carolina.

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Speaker 5: And so that combination of and I knew that Aaron

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Speaker 5: could tackle really really difficult true crime stories, specifically involving women.

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Speaker 5: I knew that she was not in a She was

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Speaker 5: not in the true crime space of like who done it?

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Speaker 5: You know, the swoop in boring stuffs. She was really

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Speaker 5: good at very complicated cases and staying factual and staying

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Speaker 5: victim focused. And the combination of Michael and Aaron it

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Speaker 5: just felt different. It was just like from all of

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Speaker 5: the phone calls that we had that summer and everybody

385
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Speaker 5: else was just so exhausting and so typical Hollywood quote unquote,

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Speaker 5: Michael and Aaron were just refreshing and kind. And it

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Speaker 5: wasn't until last year that it was actually greenlit in

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Speaker 5: September twenty twenty four, and then the ball just went

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Speaker 5: rolling and Liz and I a year ago I think

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Speaker 5: this week we went to LA and saw the writer's.

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Speaker 2: Room, Jason Clark is, I don't even I have no words,

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Speaker 2: like next level this man's performance, it's like an arc

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Speaker 2: of a madman, like you actually see. I just he's

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Speaker 2: incredible in this show on every level. Everybody's wonderful, but

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Speaker 2: I am just I was like blown away by him.

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Speaker 1: You can't take your eyes off of him. It's captivating

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Speaker 1: and it really is true to who Elec was to

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Speaker 1: some people. That energy that you know, I want to

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Speaker 1: see what he does next because it's going to be

400
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Speaker 1: not great but.

401
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Speaker 4: Interesting. Yeah, that like energy.

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Speaker 1: Because Mandy and I first saw him in person during

403
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Speaker 1: Paul's first hearing in twenty nineteen, and the way he

404
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: came onto the scene was exactly as we both expected

405
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: him to, but even more so so he was a

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Speaker 1: huge presence in this tiny courtroom and thought nothing of

407
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Speaker 1: going up to the Beach family and shaking their hand

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Speaker 1: as if they were at church and like this was

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Speaker 1: no big deal, and clapping them, you know, on the back,

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Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, and just it really, uh,

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Speaker 1: Jason really captured that feeling. And you're right, it's like

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00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: it's in af football. You just don't know how to

413
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: describe it, but it's it's you get on a ride

414
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 1: and you take it with him, you know, and.

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00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 2: You feel like this is why another it's so brilliant

416
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 2: because you see how this man is slowly losing control,

417
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: like slowly unraveling, and then how that gets more escalated

418
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 2: and the dynamic just becomes more extreme and his I

419
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: just disincredible. So how did he come to the show,

420
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: how how did he get involved?

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00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 5: So with Jason, I'm I'm not exactly sure. I just

422
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 5: remember a very chaotic period last year when Aaron would

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00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 5: call me and say we were close to an actor

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Speaker 5: and then it would fall through and we were not

425
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 5: greenlit until we got Patricia Arquette. But I also loved

426
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Speaker 5: that because she was the reason why it was great.

427
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 5: Love that it was led Y's and she's number one

428
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Speaker 5: on the call sheet, like Patricia.

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Speaker 4: Was the queen of our show. Yes, and I absolutely.

430
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 3: Love saying content that's what they call it, like.

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00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 5: You casting content. Yes, it was casting contingent for a

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Speaker 5: long time, and I remember, and I'll just say I

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Speaker 5: can't say the names, but there was several big things

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Speaker 5: that would come in and we would get really excited

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Speaker 5: and be like, Oh, that's gonna be great, and then

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00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 5: it would fall through. And that happened for a while,

437
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 5: but then Patricia Arquette and then Jason Clark signed on

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Speaker 5: pretty soon after Patricia, and I wrote that her. Yeah,

439
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 5: I know, I do too, I really do. And she

440
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 5: is also just so wonderful. So like, as much as

441
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 5: we talk about how great Jason is in the show,

442
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 5: we have to talk about Patricia, because Patricia kind of

443
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 5: played the opposite of that, Like she played a role

444
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 5: that was quiet, in a role that was like you

445
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 5: can she was constantly doing these little movements that you

446
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 5: could tell there was no space for Maggie in that household,

447
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 5: and that there was. She just played that part so

448
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 5: beautifully and eloquently. And so they were like the opposites

449
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 5: of each other. He was this big, giant presence taking

450
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 5: up all the air, and she was just her entire

451
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 5: life revolved around him, and she slowly started to realize

452
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 5: that that was the wrong move yet.

453
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 2: Right slowly realizing all the things that I thought, this

454
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: is my life to be actually looking around and realizing, oh,

455
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: this is.

456
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 3: What my life is.

457
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 2: It's so I love that scene where she the two

458
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: of them after the party and she's like, you think,

459
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: I'm doing.

460
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: These things for myself, you know, all of it. And

461
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 3: I felt like there is.

462
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 2: Something so identifiable to so many women to I identify

463
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 2: with that feeling. You know, I throw dinner parties and

464
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 2: do things, and I'm like, this is not for wait a.

465
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 4: Second, invisible labor. Yeah, the labor is right.

466
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 5: And that was Patricia's basically her whole role. So, I mean, uh,

467
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 5: and Jason was wonderful and amazing, but Patricia I was

468
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 5: just extremely impressed by not only she took her taking

469
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 5: on the role of Maggie, but she did a lot

470
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 5: of research into coercive control and what it's like to

471
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 5: be in a relationship with a narcissist, and that is

472
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 5: how she approached the role and I thought that that

473
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 5: was so genius.

474
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: She really.

475
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: The nuance that she brought to it is really something

476
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: because you see how there are so many moments where you,

477
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 2: as a viewer, I felt, oh, this is when she's

478
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 2: going to like really lose it on him, or she's

479
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 2: going to and then swallows it. Yeah, that's what she

480
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: like takes the next step, you know that stuff is

481
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,479
Speaker 2: and that's really how this is why this show is

482
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: so great with.

483
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: All the nuance of these people.

484
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: And you know, you two are both very committed to

485
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 2: putting the victims at the center of these stories, and

486
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: so I feel like that's what this looks like. But

487
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: you know, my question is what for you guys? What

488
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 2: does that look like for you? And I this is

489
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 2: probably part of it.

490
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I think this is part of it. This

491
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: is like the end of it. The you know, a

492
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: lot of times when we put victims in the center,

493
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: they're actually in the background, but they're in the background

494
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: with us. And I don't want to give away too

495
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: much in life, but it's important that we are honoring

496
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: what the victims want in terms of the type of

497
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: coverage we do. We don't force them to you know,

498
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: when I say force, we don't put them on the

499
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: spot to come on the show and talk and explain

500
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: themselves in anyone. We we very much consider how that

501
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: we're acting on their behalf, I guess is the best

502
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: way to say it. So there's things that we can

503
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: do that they can't do because you know of an

504
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: ongoing case or you know, family dynamics, and that was

505
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: the case in the Murdoch family. Even there are people

506
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: behind the scenes that we were, you know, talking with,

507
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: who could not be out loud about their grief about

508
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: Maggie and Paul because to do so would be an

509
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 1: affront to the family. So I think sometimes victim centered,

510
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: we're able to tell the victim story, but sometimes it

511
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: takes a while to get there because what we're doing

512
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: is the work of you know, where crime meets corruptions.

513
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: So we're trying to make change and get these investigations

514
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: looked at or.

515
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 5: I don't.

516
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: I hate to say shamed people, but we have Sometimes

517
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: we have to shame people to do their jobs, and

518
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: so that's for the victims.

519
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, what I'm saying, yeah totally, And yeah, I mean

520
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 5: I just think about like with Maggie, her story was

521
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 5: so forgotten for such a long time, and I actually

522
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 5: really I liked that they ended up showing that Maggie

523
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 5: did not like the Mandy character in the show, because

524
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 5: that was true to form. Maggie blocked me on Instagram

525
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 5: years ago.

526
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 3: She did.

527
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know that she did not like for a

528
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 5: fact that she did not like me, But I looked

529
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 5: back to on that and I'm like, we could have

530
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 5: been taking down the same monster together, you know, like

531
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 5: it was we all had the same enemy at the

532
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 5: same time. And I don't blame her for thinking that

533
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 5: I was the enemy, because she was just trying to

534
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 5: protect her kids, right.

535
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: She's trying to preserve her family, her own life, like

536
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: she's so deeply embedded in it.

537
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 5: Right, And so that's another nuance that I had to

538
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 5: think about and stop about. Like first, I was like, eh,

539
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 5: I don't really like being uh, it's a little uncomfortable.

540
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 5: But when I thought about it, I'm like, yeah, we

541
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 5: were we had the same enemy all along, and it's

542
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 5: just too bad. And I hope that that's a message

543
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 5: for women that like, actually, just look at your husband.

544
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 5: Your husband's fall not most women. Now.

545
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: I have a great husband, right, so do I, but

546
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: you know there are a lot that are not right.

547
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

548
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 5: Like I look back on that, I'm like, huh, that's

549
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:32,239
Speaker 5: just so sad. And and that's where Maggie, unfortunately, like

550
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 5: the entire series, just goes through this cautionary tale of

551
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 5: what is happening to a woman when she realizes that

552
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 5: she's married to a very bad man. And unfortunately, by

553
00:31:45,000 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 5: the time she realized it, it was too late for her.

554
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 2: And her sister. I was so moved by j Smith

555
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: Cameron another. I mean, just like one of the best,

556
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: the best, that position that she held, right of being

557
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: the last person to the last conversation with her and

558
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 2: sort of that guilt that she must feel. But how

559
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: complicated that is. That It's like, you can't change you know,

560
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,479
Speaker 2: you can't change someone else's decisions. We can't make it

561
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: for her. So even though I'm sure she witnessed so

562
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: many things over the years in the dynamic of that

563
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: relationship that it is a certain point you accept this

564
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: is the choice my sister has made, and you kind

565
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: of have to go with that. And you know, it's

566
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: such a strange place to be of not endorsing, but

567
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: then are you endorsing? Like I think about her, that

568
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: sister a lot, and how what her pain must be

569
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: like and how she goes through the world today.

570
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: It's so yeah, it's complicated. Yeah.

571
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 5: I know several murder victims friends at this point that

572
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 5: they're and that their husband's the victims husbands killed them,

573
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 5: and it is so sad, so profoundly sad to see

574
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 5: them going through the process of grief and regret about

575
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 5: like what could I have.

576
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 4: Done, What did I miss?

577
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,959
Speaker 5: And then the men don't feel anything like they're not

578
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 5: going through any of that at all. But the friends

579
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 5: and the sisters and the people that really cared about

580
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 5: these victims. I've just really noticed that in the past

581
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 5: few years. It's just so incredibly sad because they are stuck.

582
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 5: And I also don't know what the rate move is

583
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 5: when you're in jas Smith Cameron's case, like, uh, Maggie's

584
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 5: sister's case, rather what do you do.

585
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: Well, especially because he went and lived with Maggie's family

586
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: after the murder, so he in that part. I don't

587
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,479
Speaker 1: believe that I wasn't in the show.

588
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: Yeah he did, Yeah I did. Yes, Yes, this is

589
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: another it's like.

590
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: My mind is yeah, it's it's like, yeah, yes, he

591
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: wanted to, like, yeah, what's led. He wanted to He

592
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: wanted to monitor them to see like if they knew

593
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: anything about his relationship with Maggie I think.

594
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: And also just his presence around them. And then again

595
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: that abuse of the psychological abuse and the emotional abuse.

596
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: They I'm sure just felt like, oh, this is a

597
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: reminder I just need to stay in my place, right

598
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 2: to not make waves.

599
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 1: And you got to pretend to be the grieving husband

600
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: and all that to make it difficult for them to believe.

601
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: But ultimately, like his sister said on the stand, you know,

602
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: I wanted to find out who killed my sister, and

603
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: this man was excited about charges being dropped against Paul,

604
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: and you know, it just it didn't add up. It

605
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: didn't seem like he was looking yeah at all. And

606
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: I think just ultimately the most important thing to her

607
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: was her relationship with Buster, which I think the show

608
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: captured beautifully, and just that sort of line that she

609
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: had to walk with him.

610
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:28,959
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, right.

611
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: I feel like one of the reasons I am so

612
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: interested in doing this podcast is because I am fiercely

613
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: curious about human behavior and how and why we do

614
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: the things that we do, and the actors that are

615
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: portraying these people there is I thought about how it

616
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: is such an important service that they're doing, but like

617
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: there's a real responsibility that they have when you're playing

618
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: a real person in any situation, but certainly with cases

619
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 2: like this where these people have gone through trauma, they

620
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: are still either still going through it or the family is,

621
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: and so what kind of extra responsibility do you think

622
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: that they have towards you know, people that are that

623
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: are still grieving, that are still seeking justice, that are

624
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 2: still reporting these things.

625
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: I think just when that's a conversation that I have

626
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: with myself a lot and sometimes with Mandy two. But

627
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: who owns the story is something that sticks with me

628
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 1: a lot, and I know it's a conversation we had

629
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: with Amanda Knox. You know, whose story is it's to tell,

630
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: because the truth is, we are journalists who were working

631
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: the case, so we have a story to tell, and

632
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: this is our story, but it's also every single person

633
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: that was represented in the show has a story to

634
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: tell from their perspective as well. So I think we

635
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: lucked out. And that's what makes the show so good

636
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: is that every single I mean right down to the

637
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: most minor roles, these people took their little seriously. And

638
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: you know, even Ala sha Kella, who played me, like,

639
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: there were moments I was watching her perform and I

640
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I really do something like that.

641
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: It's it's things that you don't pick up on I

642
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: think about yourself. But I do think that there was

643
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: a lot of philosophical conversation going on with the actors

644
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: and themselves about you know, especially with Johnny and his

645
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 1: portrayal of Paul. I mean that was like, he's my gosh, yeah,

646
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: yeah he had to they had I mean they really

647
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: Patricia Arquette had a character that was very difficult to

648
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: play because nobody knew anything about Maggie.

649
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 3: That's what I was going to say.

650
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: She Yeah, there isn't really much to know about like nobody,

651
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: nobody knew.

652
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, even her closest friends had trouble describing her. And

653
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: you know, as we've said many times on our podcast,

654
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: ELC basically just described her as a woman.

655
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 5: On the pony literally the sand on the sand, he said,

656
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 5: a woman and a mother of boys.

657
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 3: Oh, and.

658
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 5: He have all the things to mention about his lovely

659
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 5: What you you would think that you would have, you know,

660
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 5: things to say about your dead wife on the stand

661
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 5: as you are fighting for your life right right, And

662
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 5: you would think that you would like come up in

663
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 5: your head at least a couple of nice sentences. But yeah,

664
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 5: a woman, a mother of boys. And then he said

665
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 5: she had a lot of hard times when she was pregnant, and.

666
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 4: It's like he wanted more kids.

667
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 3: What what?

668
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 5: And it's like pregnant like twenty five years ago, why

669
00:38:58,920 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 5: are you mentioning that?

670
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 3: Right, Like, that's how he identifies.

671
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 5: Her exactly, like this woman mother of my boys and

672
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 5: couldn't have enough of my kids, so it's her fault. Unbelievable,

673
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 5: Like and I don't even know what the what we

674
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 5: were about Patricia.

675
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: So it was like Maggie was kind of an enigma.

676
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 1: And yeah, ultimately we know that's because he didn't give

677
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: her space to really be her own person. And I

678
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: think that conversation even with her sister on the way

679
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: to Moselle or before going to Mozelle, it feels like

680
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: they didn't have the kind of relationship. They had a

681
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: really close relationship. They talked all the time, but there's

682
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: a there's a bridge you're crossing when you tell somebody,

683
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: especially your family member, that you're having relationship problems or

684
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: and it's a point to take it back.

685
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 5: Right Yeah, yes, a great and they're going to hate

686
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 5: them forever. Yep, that's how everybody. That's kind of an

687
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 5: unspoken thing that women all have to deal with. It's

688
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 5: like once you tell your friends that you were in

689
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 5: an abusive relationship and all the terrible things that your

690
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 5: partner is doing, your friend is never going to forgive

691
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 5: him for that, so you can't take it makes it

692
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,919
Speaker 5: real to Yeah, it makes it too real, right where

693
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 5: you could just shove it to the side and let

694
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 5: it eat you up inside, which I think was a

695
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 5: lot of Maggie's personality.

696
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 4: I think that he was just eating her up inside,

697
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 4: right right, right.

698
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. She actually had cancer too shortly before she died

699
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: and was was throwup cancer right yeah, yeah, yeah, when

700
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: you think about the symbolism of that, right.

701
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 5: Right, Oh my gosh, yeah, right, it was course.

702
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

703
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 5: And I think some of the best little stories that

704
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 5: we got about Maggie that Liz got from her friends

705
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 5: were from college before she really was in a relationship

706
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 5: with Alex, so like I think that because they described

707
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 5: this very bright and bubbly personality funny, what were other

708
00:40:58,239 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 5: like silly?

709
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 4: Uh, Yeah, she's kind of a different just a different person. Yeah.

710
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 5: And Alex was the quarterback and was the big man

711
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 5: on campus and just swept her off her feet and

712
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 5: she never looked back.

713
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: They tried to get her to stop dating him, and

714
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,479
Speaker 1: I think that that's the thing I don't talk about enough. Yeah,

715
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: she had a little friend intervention in college where he

716
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: was because he would have got rough with her, you know,

717
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: but she she thought, you know, this was the guy

718
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: for her. So it's just that that makes me so

719
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: sad to think of myself at that age too. Like

720
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: you you don't realize at that time in your life

721
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: that you have so much left of it, exactly.

722
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 2: It sounds like this is the beginning of the end

723
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: or something, right, And they can't see outside.

724
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 3: Of what's immediately surrounding.

725
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 5: You, yeah, right, And especially at that time, like women

726
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 5: were just basically told like college is like you're time,

727
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 5: you gotta you gotta pick one you're going to be

728
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 5: it's all actually.

729
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 3: To be educated.

730
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 5: It's Mason and there she was, and like I could

731
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 5: also understand that when people, I think the churchier Arquette

732
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 5: asked me, what do why do you think Maggie was

733
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 5: attracted to Alex And I was, like, they started dating

734
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 5: when they were nineteen twenty years old. So think of yourself,

735
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 5: you right, Think of your little brain everybody had. I

736
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 5: had a very tiny brain when I was nineteen and

737
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 5: dated very terrible people. And it's fine now thinking back

738
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 5: on it because my brain's developed, and I just thank

739
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 5: God that I did not stay with those people, you know,

740
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 5: like I, but Maggie had to stay with us, ended

741
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 5: up staying with him for the rest of her life,

742
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 5: and that was just it was kind of the way

743
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 5: that And also I think sadly, I bet a lot

744
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 5: of women envied her because she was marrying a Murdoch

745
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 5: and she was marrying the big man on campus, and

746
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 5: she was married this man that was so funny and

747
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 5: full of life and had all this money and his

748
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 5: family had all this power. I'm sure she was very

749
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 5: much envied at the time, and then now you look

750
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 5: back and it's just such a tragedy.

751
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: Oh.

752
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: I mean, this is I think why people continue to

753
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: be so obsessed and interested in this particular case. You know,

754
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 2: we're we're always looking I think for sort of to understand.

755
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: That's what I'm looking for, right, Like I want to

756
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: understand why or how, and and sometimes that is such a.

757
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 3: Labyrinth of like you just can't. It's it's endless.

758
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: And I think it's also about the accountability though, I

759
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: think as a nation, when everyone is watching this, ye,

760
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: I don't know that we're all used to seeing a

761
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: man with Elex's power and pedigree. I guess we could

762
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: call it be held accountable for something so heinous. Do

763
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: you think that, like, when you're watching it, is that

764
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: what you're getting from?

765
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 2: Like I think that it's like I can't I can't

766
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: believe it. I think that's what it sort of feels like,

767
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: is oh my god, did he really?

768
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 3: Is he really being held accountable?

769
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: Now?

770
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 3: Is that really happening? Because when you look.

771
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,479
Speaker 2: At you know, the whole the kids especially, I think like, well,

772
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: these boys, that was their example of what it is

773
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 2: to be a man, what it is to be a father,

774
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: what it is to just live. They had no guidelines.

775
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: It was like this is anything you do, we can

776
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: if it's bad, we'll take it away.

777
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 3: You don't have to be Like.

778
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: That scene where Paul the first moment he's brought into

779
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: court and all they do is arraign him, I think,

780
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: is what's happening? And he just goes is it over now?

781
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: As if like that's all I have to do.

782
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 4: I just need to show up and now it's over right.

783
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: It's so telling of and that's you know, his his

784
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: performance also is so beautiful in that way, because you

785
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: really do feel like I never thought I would have

786
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 2: any compassion before I watched this series. I was like,

787
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 2: this is a bad kid. He's spoiled, he's a train wreck.

788
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: He's my worst nightmare. Like, I have no sympathy for

789
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: this kid. And something about watching that you really see

790
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: how he just had no help and then he was

791
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 2: trying to keep friends, you know, and that sort of

792
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 2: like now, it doesn't excuse him in any way for

793
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 2: the things that he did, but it explains it, you know,

794
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 2: it's a little bit of an explanation. And I think

795
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: this is also the thing, like we all from the

796
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: human standpoint, we all at a certain point have to

797
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,959
Speaker 2: grow up, and these like that.

798
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 3: He never grew up. Alec never did.

799
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: He just decided I don't have to, you know, It's

800
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 2: it's really crazy.

801
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 4: One of my favorites on set.

802
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 5: I mean, he is a wonderful human being and an

803
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,879
Speaker 5: amazing person. So, Liz, you were with me on set

804
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,919
Speaker 5: when we when I met him for the first time.

805
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: Did you meet everybody on set for the first time,

806
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: or you met Brittany before?

807
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: Yes, we met Britney before.

808
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 4: It just would depend because.

809
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: You're scared of Jon.

810
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 4: So yeah, I literally never neither.

811
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 5: Oh, he was terrifying on set, Like he never I

812
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 5: never heard him speak in this Australian accent until the last,

813
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 5: until the end, until the last scene literally ended, and

814
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 5: he was done at like four o'clock in the morning,

815
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 5: and then he started and I was like, I forgot

816
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 5: your Australian. This is so weird because in between takes

817
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 5: he would kind of curse like Alex, he would stomp

818
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 5: around and get mad like he was just fully in character.

819
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 4: So he was a scary.

820
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 5: So every time, like we were both big fans of him,

821
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 5: but every time it's like, oh, not now.

822
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 3: Scrubs, but now John.

823
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 4: Was in Scrubs.

824
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 5: I just met him because he was playing the hospital scenes.

825
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 2: And when he after the boat crash, yes, yes, So

826
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: he is incredible in this that scene of like you

827
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: feel you see, oh, he's the mini version. He's becoming

828
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 2: his father, Like this boy is his father's son.

829
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 4: Right, And I am the same way. I think one

830
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 4: of the.

831
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 5: Things that I struggle with in life is compassion for

832
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 5: just bad people or for people that like people that

833
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 5: hurt other people, I just have little compassion for. I

834
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 5: have a hard time getting to a place of feeling

835
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 5: sorry for them. So Paul was definitely a journey even

836
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 5: after he died, like especially after in the two years

837
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 5: after the boat crash, before he died. Pretty much all

838
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 5: of the things that we ever heard about Paul Murdoch

839
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 5: was that he was just this awful kid, spoiled, entitled.

840
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 5: He was easy to hate, and I wrote about him

841
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 5: in that light, and so did Liz. We both just

842
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 5: kind of viewed him as the spoiled brat child who

843
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 5: killed Mallory Beach and he should be held accountable and

844
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 5: was not and was dodging accountability in our eyes and

845
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 5: in It took talking to a lot of Paul's friends

846
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 5: to understand that he did have a sweet and softer

847
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 5: side and that he was honestly kind of like the

848
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 5: black sheep of his family, and he was not little Alex.

849
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 5: I think him and Alex fought all the time because

850
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 5: Paul liked to question things and Alex was not about that.

851
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 5: He buster would just nod his head and say, okay,

852
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 5: that's our family, does it Okay, that's fine. Paul would

853
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 5: just kind of say why. And I think that he really,

854
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 5: I think that his mental health issues just got wildly

855
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 5: out of control when he was a teenager and he

856
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 5: would just try to ask questions about things, and his

857
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 5: parents would not help him.

858
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 4: Or would not guide.

859
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,479
Speaker 5: Him in the right way of and then they would

860
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 5: completely shield him from all accountability. Like at school, he

861
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 5: was never teachers knew that they were never allowed to

862
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 5: get the Murdoch boys in trouble, so at school he

863
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 5: could never get Yeah, they just created this bubble where

864
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 5: it was impossible for them to grow up like normal kids.

865
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 5: So Johnny's portrayal of Paul, I think was so incredibly

866
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 5: brilliant because he got so many people to see that

867
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 5: and to look past this person that was very easy

868
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 5: to hate for a long time and see that he

869
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 5: didn't have a chance and if he did have a

870
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 5: chance of ever becoming normal, his father took that away

871
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 5: from him because he died at twenty one years old.

872
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 3: Yep.

873
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, has anybody from the Murdoch family or crew reached

874
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 2: out to either of you since the show has aired.

875
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 2: Have you heard from anyone?

876
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 5: Oh?

877
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, I don't think I don't think so.

878
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 5: I did hear from the friend of Randy's that they

879
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 5: thought that Randy would like the show.

880
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 3: So this is what I was going to say.

881
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 2: There are some suspects of it that I feel like

882
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 2: they would I mean, much of it.

883
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 3: Sure, if they believe that he's in the center. They

884
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 3: don't want that out there.

885
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 2: Of course they're not going to like that. But I

886
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: do think that the show creates fully realized human beings

887
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 2: in all of them, and even you know, even Alec.

888
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: He was an addict also again not an excuse, but

889
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: a part of an explanation. And I think, you know,

890
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 2: but again, you would have to then be willing to

891
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: be accountable for your life. Like this is what is

892
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: so fascinating to me too, the string of connection of

893
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:45,399
Speaker 2: every time we allow something like we let it go,

894
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,919
Speaker 2: it isn't just that then we take it on the inside.

895
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 3: So it's like you take that with you.

896
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 2: If you've allowed an injustice to happen, or you've allowed

897
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 2: someone to lie or to cheat or to do something,

898
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 2: you're taking that with you. You know, It's like it doesn't,

899
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 2: it doesn't, we're not teflon.

900
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 3: It sticks.

901
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 2: And the more that you do that, then it starts to,

902
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 2: you know, impact your life. And I feel like all

903
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: of these people will forever be.

904
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 3: Impacted by this, you know.

905
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, if there's no way to really.

906
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 3: Move on, well, I mean, I hope everybody can move on,

907
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 3: I guess, but.

908
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 5: I don't yeah, yeah, I mean I think that this

909
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 5: was all such a moment, and I think the saddest

910
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 5: part of it is that our state, particularly the South

911
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:43,840
Speaker 5: Carolina Bar and the agency that police as lawyers in

912
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 5: our state, has not learned their lesson of like we

913
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 5: let this man gain so much power and spiral out

914
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 5: of control, and nobody within our court system ever held

915
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 5: him accountable for so many years, and he was able

916
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 5: to steal millions of dollars because he was a lawyer,

917
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 5: because he passed the South Carolina Bar allegedly.

918
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I wonder about that too.

919
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 5: No, they know, we have heard that man's phone calls

920
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 5: when he talks about lawyer things, and it is ridiculous.

921
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 5: He did not know what Habeas Corpus is apparently worried

922
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 5: just watch, like, come on, it's not hard. He was

923
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 5: just just not But it's just really upsetting that, like

924
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 5: we have not used this moment as something to get better,

925
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 5: to something to really change.

926
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 4: I mean, Liz, you think that like some things have changed.

927
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we hear from attorneys in the fourteenth

928
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: Circuit that they are now stricter about five So basically,

929
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: when I say things have changed, they're doing what they're

930
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing in the base level, like the

931
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: most basic. But overall, I don't think that things have changed.

932
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: Do you think that, like like a little.

933
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:07,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, but everything moves at a snail's face,

934
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: in particular the justice system, good.

935
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 4: Lord and in South Carolina.

936
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 3: And there, But it's has have you.

937
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: I mean it sounds like that you were worn to

938
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: be careful with even investing this at all in the

939
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 2: first place. So were either of you ever afraid that

940
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: they might retaliate against you or harm you.

941
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: Or Yeah, I mean we were told they would and

942
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: we were told to be very careful by you know,

943
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: sources in law enforcement who told us that. So that

944
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 1: part was disconcerting. Honestly, though I don't know that he was.

945
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's the person I feared. I think,

946
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: you know, looking back on it, it's and maybe this

947
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: isn't probably to say, but like the boat crash case

948
00:54:53,719 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: itself with Mallory Beach, Stanley sued elc Buster and a

949
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: number of other people, one of the parties was Parker's Kitchen,

950
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: which is this billionaire billion dollar gas station committees stor

951
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: Chine in Georgia and South Carolina. I'm honestly more afraid

952
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: of him, the guy who owns that company, than in

953
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: our coverage than I am. And I never thought I

954
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: would say that, But like, there was a time when

955
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: Mandy and I were in Hampton County interviewing a source

956
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 1: in a heart ease, and somehow it must have cut

957
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: out that we were there because we went to look

958
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: at where Stephen was killed for the first time. We

959
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: didn't stop. We just drove by, went down Stephen Street,

960
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 1: turned around, and came back the other way. And as

961
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: we were driving, I could see like in the distance

962
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: this like silver STV coming toward us, long road, like

963
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: you could see a long distance, and it slowed down

964
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 1: as it passed us, and then hooked bangda yuis in

965
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: Boston bed like he took a U turn and he

966
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: went right behind us. And I have never felt like

967
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: if you wonder, like what feels like in the moment

968
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 1: where like your entire body like just sinks down to

969
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: the ground, like it's just like So Mandy had to

970
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 1: call one of our sources who is in law enforcement

971
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: and keep them on the phone just in case, and

972
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,919
Speaker 1: that guy followed us until we got out of there.

973
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was like one of those things where

974
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: it's really I think this is the.

975
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 3: Thing that people don't understand.

976
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 2: Like I have friends family in North Carolina, and I

977
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 2: spent time in South Carolina and not just there, but

978
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: these are very remote places often and people don't understand how,

979
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 2: you know, they might think like, oh, well just drive

980
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: away or just go to another when it's so insulated

981
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 2: and so isolated, you really don't have, like you you

982
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 2: can understand how these kinds of dynamics can control everything.

983
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 2: And then it's like you're entering a different world where

984
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 2: you don't you don't hold the same value.

985
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 3: As you do in the of the world. You know.

986
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: That's so you're noticed what fans of the show were

987
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: like people who followed the case. When they come to

988
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: South Carolina and decide to take a trip to Moselle

989
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 1: or to Hampton, I'm just so curious about how that

990
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: goes down, because it's I just they're I mean, they're

991
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: immediately clocked. I'm sure, and Hampton to have to get

992
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: used to that, but I just I often wonder if

993
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: that's a pleasant experience for people. I don't see how

994
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: it could be.

995
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:29,439
Speaker 5: It's well, it's so funny that you say that, Like, well,

996
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 5: first of all, it was a cop that was following us,

997
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 5: so like that was obvious.

998
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 4: But people like you.

999
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 5: Said, it's also just such a rule and desolate place

1000
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 5: that when somebody is following you, it's very obvious, like

1001
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 5: and there's not a lot, there's nobody else's on this road,

1002
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 5: and some guy comes on of nowhere, polls of you,

1003
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 5: Like that's an obvious, uh, you're being followed situation, and

1004
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 5: and yeah, and it's hard to also understand that it's

1005
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 5: possible that we were talking in Hardy's a few minutes

1006
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 5: before we remember seeing a cop in there, the policing

1007
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 5: lunch or something, and like that's how we're that's literally

1008
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 5: how we're traveled in small towns like party from parties.

1009
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 5: It just goes, it goes really quick, and it's just

1010
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 5: very different how things operate there versus the rest of

1011
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 5: the world.

1012
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: Right, I can't believe I fard to say that it

1013
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: was a state trooper who followed us.

1014
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 4: I was afraid of going to jae.

1015
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 2: You.

1016
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 5: I just remember being like, if we go to jail,

1017
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 5: what's gonna happen?

1018
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 4: Like the laws don't apply here.

1019
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 3: We know that exactly the laws don't apply.

1020
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 4: And so what are we going to do?

1021
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I I can't believe that we have to

1022
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 2: wrap up, but we do. And if you could see

1023
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:56,439
Speaker 2: the sides of my computer, which I could turn this around,

1024
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 2: I can't. But I have so many notes and so

1025
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 2: many things I haven't covered even half of them.

1026
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 3: But we'll do it again. Yeah, we'll do it. We'll

1027
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 3: do it, yeah, every week, every other day.

1028
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 2: I think you guys just like dial into my headset,

1029
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 2: but I do.

1030
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 3: I want to make sure that.

1031
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 2: I, first of all, I absolutely love that you have

1032
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 2: changed the name to True Sunlight again, not to like

1033
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 2: just really reiterate how much I really love and respect

1034
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 2: what the two of you are doing. It's taking something

1035
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 2: so dark and so difficult and then just even changing

1036
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 2: the name to truth Sunlight to show that is what

1037
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 2: that's what you're that's what the essence of what you're

1038
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 2: doing is. Is trying to bring everyone to that place now.

1039
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 2: And I just think it's beautiful and important. So I

1040
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 2: want to make sure that you have a moment to

1041
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 2: tell everybody what any last thoughts you have, where people

1042
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 2: can go to listen, and what you want people to

1043
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 2: know going forward.

1044
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 5: Well, We had a really hard time rebranding after Murdoch

1045
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 5: Murders podcast was over, as in, we could not come

1046
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 5: up with a name, and it took a very long

1047
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 5: time to figure out what we wanted the concept of

1048
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 5: going forward our podcast to be, and we just did

1049
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 5: not We were so sick of saying Murdoch murders and

1050
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 5: so sick of people's saying and it was after the trial,

1051
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 5: so it was a kind of over, but not really.

1052
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 5: We were so sick of people saying all you ever

1053
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 5: do is Murdoch and you'll never be anything past Murdoch,

1054
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 5: and we were like.

1055
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 4: Yes, we can watch us.

1056
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 5: But Liz came up with the concept of true Sunlight,

1057
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 5: and I really want her to explain her reasoning for it,

1058
01:00:55,680 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 5: because it was really genius and I love it.

1059
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: Was in the line at Starbucks I was getting and

1060
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:09,439
Speaker 1: a look for David, and it was during the dark

1061
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 1: days in the immediate aftermath at the court of the trial,

1062
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 1: and we were just you know, throwing it around and

1063
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: we were you know, David in particular is just really

1064
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: eager for us to do, like I think even during

1065
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 1: the trial He's like, let's change it.

1066
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1067
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it was basically like, you know, we knew

1068
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 1: that true crime. Plenty of things that are out there

1069
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: that people can listen to, and it oftentimes they're beginning, middle,

1070
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: and end, Like it's reporters or people who have interested

1071
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: in the industry or the industry, the justice system or

1072
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: the legal system. They have a beginning, a middle, and

1073
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 1: an end to the arcs that they tell. But we're

1074
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 1: reporting in real time, so our audience is there with us,

1075
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 1: with the battles to get information from public officials, with

1076
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: the watching the men act like maniacs, so we get

1077
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 1: to really have a team on our side behind it

1078
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: or behind us, but who have our backs. And so

1079
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: it really felt like something that we wanted to like share.

1080
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: And like sunlight is a word that we use in

1081
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: journalism for transparency, So oh is that right? Yeah, So

1082
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: it's it has like double meaning here. So it's not

1083
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: just you know, it's not true crime, but true sunlight

1084
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 1: in the sense that we're taking the crime and we're

1085
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 1: exposing you know what, why isn't this crime being solved?

1086
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 1: Why why are police doing that in this one? So

1087
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 1: it's really it's exposing crime and corruption. And it was

1088
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: in the kitchen, Mandy your house when we were just

1089
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 1: like it was so simple, like we just said I

1090
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: just said it, and then it was like yeah, and.

1091
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 5: We were like antithesis of true crime, like make it

1092
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 5: opposite and make it be ultimately about good, which is sunlight,

1093
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 5: you know, like make it ultimate, like that is the

1094
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 5: goal of what we do, to make it to make

1095
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 5: life better for victims, to make them feel like and

1096
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 5: then we've also found that justice comes in many forms,

1097
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 5: and one of the forms that we are able to

1098
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 5: give to people is to just expose the bad people

1099
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 5: that have done horrible things and just the process of

1100
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 5: exposing bad people and helping victims feel validated in the

1101
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 5: way that they have felt about how they've been treated

1102
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 5: by the justice system. And we have an amazing army

1103
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 5: of hundreds of thousands of followers that we are so

1104
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:34,959
Speaker 5: incredibly grateful for.

1105
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 4: Every day that they amazing they go to battle.

1106
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 5: For these people, you know, like they'll say on social

1107
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 5: media like leave them alone or or like or they

1108
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 5: make fun of the perpetrators. We do a lot of

1109
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 5: that because that's also kind of a little form of justice,

1110
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 5: Like we can't arrest people, but we can let these

1111
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 5: bad guys know that we are after them.

1112
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,959
Speaker 4: And that we are watching and your eyes yeah yeah, and.

1113
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 5: There is no shortage of that so of the bad

1114
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 5: guys that need to be exposed, So we are very busy.

1115
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,479
Speaker 5: But ye, Truth Light Yeah, I don't know, but True

1116
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 5: Sunlight podcast is where you guys can listen to us

1117
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 5: and Cuple of Justice podcasts. Cup of Justice is every

1118
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 5: Tuesday and True Sunlight is every Thursday. And again, we

1119
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 5: appreciate you so much.

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01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 4: This has been awesome.

1121
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 2: You can't thank the two of you enough. This has

1122
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 2: been an absolute pleasure. And again I'm just mad respects

1123
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 2: for both of you. I wish you the best with

1124
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 2: all of it, and I feel like, well we'll chat

1125
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 2: again sometimes.

1126
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 5: Seriously, let us know this is fun, amazing, Thank you

1127
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 5: so much.

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01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 3: Listen many