WEBVTT - David Esler 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:00.760 I miss the green. 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:03.480 For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:05.920 in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.000 Ball in a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.280 Frida Egg, Frida Egg. 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:13.360 Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:42.440 golf course. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.839 of the Friday Egg Podcast. Today we have as our 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:50.720 guest Dave Essler. Dave is a golf course architect who's 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:55.440 designed courses like Black Sheep Mount Prospect Golf Club and 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:59.320 then done a lot of restorations around the Chicagoland area, 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:05.840 including work at Ravslow GluN View Club, Chicago Golf Lake, 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:07.959 Geneva Country Club. 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:14.560 Dave, welcome on, Thanks for having me. There's breakfast included, right, 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.479 I assume that's part of the deal the Frida eggers at. 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.839 Yeah, you get a gift card to our future breakfast 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:24.760 breakfast establishment. 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.520 It's in the works, Grand Slam. 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:28.800 Yeah, it's it's. 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:30.880 Gonna be called the it's gonna be called the Woke 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.720 Yoke to Coffee, shopping and breakfast. 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.839 Plus. Yeah, you guys are ahead of the curve. Wait, 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:39.480 maybe not ahead of the curve on the punching. 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.360 Yeah, yeah, I heard it's kind of popular on weekends. Now, yeah, 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:48.600 I understand, so we're uh yeah, I mean I think 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.360 you got an interesting background. Dave played golf at Ohio State. 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.800 Still a stick. You know, don't let him tell you 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.440 he's not he you know, we found out really quickly 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.440 last Friday, like we played that he's a He's a 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:06.840 terrific sandbagger. Still still rolls in a lot of verdies. 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:07.280 Gift. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.440 So I would love to hear a little bit about, 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:13.799 you know, kind of how you got into golf from 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.600 the start, and you know, your your journey through golf 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.000 and how you became an architect. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:27.280 The I was born a small notch uh the like 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:31.320 like everybody of my era. And before I grew up catting, 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.080 and uh, my dad was a school teacher and so 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.160 he had summers off and he worked at a golf 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.720 course near home in Wakanda, and my brother and I 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.880 grew up cattying. And you know, I'm glad there are 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:50.920 still folks who are institutionally and golf professionals who really 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:55.560 support that way of life introduction to the game, because 0:02:55.560 --> 0:03:00.600 it really is an artery to creating golfers in with 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.680 all of the grow the Game initiatives, which are terrific. Uh, 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.960 there's there's really one proven method of getting people hooked 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.840 on the game and learn all the good things the 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:15.919 game can imbue in a personality and and revealing all 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:21.079 the bad things that the game can show off in 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:26.840 a personality. But the I grew up canning and playing 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.960 on Mondays. We were fortunate enough to get to play 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:35.200 golf just about everywhere that was good around Chicago on Mondays, 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.200 back in the days when clubs used to be closed 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:38.440 completely on Mundles. 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.160 What course did you grow up caddying at? 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.240 Built More Country Club? Which was not a great golf 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.040 course by any stretchy, it was close to home, and 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:54.280 you know, ended up becoming good friends with Jim Michael 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.360 and his family and spent a lot of summers hanging 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:03.520 out there, and you know, learned all the important lessons 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.839 of golf, how to swear, how to throw clubs hot up, 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:11.200 you know, flick matches in the Caddyshack, you know, all 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.400 the good lessons that you kind of saw in the 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:18.440 Caddyshack movie. But we were really fortunately because we would 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.279 go up and play back in you know, nineteen seventy 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:27.520 five to nineteen eighty five, when golf in Chicago had 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.920 actually golf courses in Chicago had a better reputation than 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.360 the reality. I mean, back then, probably the only really 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:39.760 really good golf courses were Story Acres in the Chicago 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:45.719 Golf Club, mostly because they hadn't been touched. Most everything 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:49.000 else at that period in Chicago used to have a 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.560 great reputation, even better than New York, which was I 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:54.719 don't want to sound like a homer, but the truth is, 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.520 it just wasn't comparable. There was a quantity, but not 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.280 a great quality, and the qualities improved quite a bit 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:07.440 a lot of the restorations and less so new development. 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.240 But in the last couple of decades there's been a 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.919 lot of really good work on the restoration front. But 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.000 so we played everywhere, and I got to see everything, 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.080 just about everything on Mondays, and then I played a 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.200 little bit and got to play in some really good 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:28.640 tournaments at some really good golf courses and saw things 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.760 that you know, public kid wouldn't otherwise have a chance 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:36.480 to be exposed to, on both the architecture and kind 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.719 of the socio economic front. 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.919 M So then you got good at golf, and you 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:44.960 went to Ohio State. 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.360 I kind of adequate at golf, I was, I was 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.680 not as good as I thought I was, And I 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.480 always I wanted to be an architect for whatever reason. 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:05.360 Granpa was an engineer, uncle was an architect. Architect, not 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.520 just a guy who waves his arm around, arms around 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:12.400 like like we do as golf course architects. But so 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:16.240 there must have been something in the DNA, I guess, 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.800 but I always knew I wanted to be involved in 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.200 golf course architecture, and you know, wrote the fifth grade 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.880 report and a lot of silly stuff and used to 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:29.040 draw drug alf holds, waiting to get out on Saturday 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:35.240 mornings as a young looper, and got decent enough to 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:37.360 have a chance to play at a big ten school. 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.280 When I got there, of course, figured out that there 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:45.840 was a whole bunch of guys who were really, really good, 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.280 better than I was, and grinding it out and had 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:54.160 had a decent career, got a you know, respectable education, 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:59.440 and played for a little while just because I felt 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.839 like I was as to and had a little success. 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:07.120 But frankly, like most of us, figure out, wow, everybody 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.960 else is really good. I thought I was but yeah, 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.080 that's who are. 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.600 Some of the guys you played with back then that 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.600 you know people would know and like it was there. 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:20.400 When was your. 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.120 Moment when you really knew, you know, I need to 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:24.080 get a real job. 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.200 It was My moment was actually earlier than I realized. 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:31.920 It was probably my first or second. It's probably my 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.280 second year in college, maybe my third year in college. 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.800 We played with guys like Scott for Plank. On our team. 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:45.720 We had Chris Perry and Clark Burrows. They in one year. 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.720 In the same year they both played in the Masters, 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.160 So a couple of us actually got to play in 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:57.680 a spring tournament because those guys were busy. And I remember, 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.120 you know, just watching guys hit shots that I just 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.040 wasn't capable of. I spent some time my brother and 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.640 I worked at Kemper Lakes and they used to have now, shoot, 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.280 what was it? The wasn't the World Series ago, but 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.880 there were four guys the major champions, and I caddied 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.320 in the Grand Slam, right, Grand Slam of Golf exactly, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.280 and I think mc I was involved with it somehow. 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.560 I remember caddying for Norman and we played a lot 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.000 of golf and ran carts. There's a fella named Bob 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:35.080 Spence who was just gentlemen of the game, played exceptionally well. 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.040 It was a terrific marketer. It was a fantastic teacher, 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:40.800 you know, cut from the mold, back when the golf 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:45.920 pro was the guy at a private club, because he 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.559 knew everything, could fixed clubs, could knew all the rules, 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.040 knew a little bit of something about agronomy. And so 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.160 Bob took my brother and I under his winging at 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.200 Kemper Lakes back when it was just nine holes. Anyway, 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.679 fast forward, so watch Greg Norton. We play a lot 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.559 of golf at Temper Lakes, and you figure out where 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:06.600 you hit the golf ball on certain conditions. And I 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.760 just watched Norman fly at sixty five yards further and 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.120 my Sunday punch, and I thought, yeah, he can do 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.960 stuff that I can't do. And you know, that was 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:24.839 the beginning of the end of a largely unfruitful playing career. 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.440 But the good thing about those exposures to competition is 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.280 you meet a bunch of guys who are really good guys, 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:35.760 and you get to see places in at least in 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:41.480 my industry, you get to see places that you good, 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:49.160 ugly or you know, just mediocrity. Lessons about golf course, 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:50.920 about golf courses, what. 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.960 Was your favorite course you got to compete at, like 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:59.439 from like a from a competitive golf standpoint, I. 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:03.480 Love playing the old Scarlet for anybody who played in 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.800 the Kepler and it was it was it was home. 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.199 Of course, it was Robert Hunter routing I'm sorry, and 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:14.400 Mackenzie routing that Robert Hunter had finished. It has since 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:22.440 been substantially altered by mister Nicholas, but it was big, 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:28.480 brewedish and nuanced at the same time. It only really 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.679 had one awkward hole and that was eighteen. That kind 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.760 of still exists. It was a big, hard dog like 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.520 left but for a lot of guys, for your listeners, 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.839 I besting there's quite a few who played there before 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:47.040 Nicholas modified the golf course or updated at whatever they 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:51.880 however they packaged it. But it was so good. It 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:56.400 would test everything he had and I learned a lot 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:01.360 about course management there. They didn't really put to good use. 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:07.040 So with that, I'm always you know, one of the 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.120 things that always makes me sad is when when you 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.480 lose like truly great golf courses and from everything I've 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.600 heard about the old scarlet, it was one of those, 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.560 and you know, now it's it's kind of, you know, 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.960 a little bit more contrived. It's got the you know, 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:28.440 segmented off greens and and and I'm just kind of curious, like, 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.040 you know, in terms of like what it lost the 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.400 most of what what kind of was the and what 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:36.920 was the you know, impetus. Was it just because of 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.160 Jack Nicholas's design career, like, you know, like how did 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.920 this all happen? Why did somebody think it was a 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:44.679 good idea? 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.680 Well, I honestly don't know the politics behind it, but 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:58.160 obviously he's a ridiculous force in the game, let alone 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:06.400 in Columbus, Ohio, So there was an inevitability about mister 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:10.800 Nicholas and his team being involved. We actually applied, so 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.120 he made as a middle and among I'm sure other 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.640 folks I assume Herding and Fry did as well, and 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:19.920 a bunch of guys because it was a it was 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:23.640 a plumb of a job. But he had been foolish 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:25.439 to think that that he wasn't gonna end up doing 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:31.120 the job anyway. Honestly, don't know. I assume that the 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:36.360 response was largely agonomically. The place was never great when 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.200 I was there, and I suspect that contributed as well 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:44.480 as the ridiculous distances that the golf ball does. You know, 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:46.480 a really good example of that is a place that 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.199 you and I talked about last week, the place called 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.120 Bellevue Biltmore, which I think is not long for the world. 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.080 It's a real Donald Ross golf course time in clear Water, 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.840 and we were fortunate enough to be involved in the 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.240 restoration and rebuilding of a kind of a design build 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.640 approach a couple of years ago. And it turns out 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.880 that one of the local rich guys is going to 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.240 buy it from the city, which is kind of unfathomable, 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:16.880 but that the city would sell an open space asset 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.400 like that. But you know, those those make me really 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:31.040 sad when a really ideal, niche golf course that has 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:37.480 some history, has some architectural integrity disappears. And you know, 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:39.960 I suppose part of this progress and we've lost a 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.920 lot of them. But when when you lose them for 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:48.560 no good reason, it just seems unnecessary. And you know, 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.640 not that I'm the doian of all things style, but 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.439 I'm pretty sure that what used to be at the 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.360 Scarlet course is probably better than what's there now, and 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:05.559 what is at BELvue Builtmore today is probably better than 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:07.760 what we'll be there now. If you happen to be 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.160 a high networks individual, that may be arguable. But for 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:16.640 the mass market of the as Mike Guyser causes, for 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:21.600 the retail golfer, it's an unfortunate trend. 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:23.040 Yeah. 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:27.040 I mean, I've played that Belvie Builtmore course when I 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.200 was in Tampa, had no expectations of it going in 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.960 and I was blown away. It was probably like three 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.400 four years ago for a bachelor party and or not 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.240 bachelor wedding, and you know it has a volcano hoole. 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.160 It's just got some great quirk. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.920 It's got the it's just got the ross old school 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.640 ross field that you know was you know, the trademark 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:53.120 playability for everybody, but the nuance and the you know, 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:58.480 the detail that that and strategy required to score is 0:14:58.520 --> 0:14:59.120 so high. 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:03.520 You know, it's a It's a terrific golf course that 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:09.200 serves a fantastically important niche, particularly in Florida where it's 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.840 KRK ball and you know water everywhere that that place 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:19.680 had very little water in play and easily walkable, very 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.680 accessible and fun. And we we imbued it in the 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.960 last year, I mean was two sofwers ago. Now with 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:31.920 a good bit more ross and some quirk, like you said, 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.000 added some center fairlyay bunkers and some strategy to the 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:42.920 second dot on the par fives. But that happens, and 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:48.080 and the ship is sale. It's just, uh, good news 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.640 is there are so many more golf courses around that 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:57.800 are being restored to their golden age characteristics. And that's 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.000 the that's the good news. On the upside of us 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.080 of that story, I suppose. 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:06.120 Yeah, I'm curious that you know, like if say you 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:10.720 know Scarlet, like say you know, twenty years down the line, 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.240 there becomes a movement to restore. 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:14.920 It back to. 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.360 What it once was, Like how how far has it 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:21.880 moved from there? Like if it was on a sliding 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.000 scale of one to ten, you know, one being you 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.920 know as far away as it could possibly be, you know, 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:28.680 like it would it? 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:30.640 You know, is it possible to bring it back? 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.920 It is the only hole to my memory that physically 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.680 changed was the force. And I think the green is 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:47.480 a lot further that Part five, the part five. Part 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.640 five was one of the best part five. Again, you 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:54.120 got to remember it was ballattas and steel shafts and 0:16:54.520 --> 0:17:00.280 persimmon and take that into consideration. Well it also old 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.560 fourth with new equipment would be you know, there's there's 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.280 lots of guys whould drive wedge into that into that 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:07.880 old hole with today's equipment. 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:09.880 So it dug. 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:16.040 Which isn't uh isn't is it doesn't really fit Jack's eye. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.720 You know, he's got to have something with with a 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:20.560 fade approach, right. 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:22.680 Yeah, every once in a while you got to go, uh, 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.199 play against type, I guess, but yeah, that was that 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.639 was certainly his m O early on in his career. 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:34.280 And I I don't know that it still is or 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:39.919 universe that's a valid argument, uh universally, but yeah, early 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:43.960 on that was certainly happening. But we I suppose we 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.440 all do that to some to some degree, I find 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.640 myself doing some of the you know, and I make 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.520 a cognizant effort every time I go to a job 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.439 to try to do what's right for the project and 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:01.720 not what I have done, and that really puts some 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:07.640 folks at unease. And we had a chance to get 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:13.200 hired by a nice private club in town I said, 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:18.879 I really don't know what we're going to do. I 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:23.000 need some time to think about what you guys are 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.880 in the marketplace and what this golf course should be. 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:31.520 And you know, I tend to fall back on the 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.320 best architect who may have ever worked on a property. 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.480 For example, when we redid Ravoslolt was an easy one 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.320 when we read it was obviously Donald Ross was in 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:45.359 and out of there. And when we redid park Ridge 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:49.240 many years ago, Bill Langford had done some work there 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.560 and so we largely went with that flavor. We just 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.600 redid again. On the design design build side, we redid Riverside. 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.159 We did a bunch of the bunkers at Riverside, and 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.600 it's an easy decision to make. We didn't move any 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.960 golf holes or anything, but of the things we touched, 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.720 we did so in the Bill lank for style, and 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.080 that's an easily defensible I can sleep at night saying, 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.159 you know, this is what we're doing, and this is 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.160 why we're doing it. And I can remember my education 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.760 early on back Columbuses. You better have some really good 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:36.800 reasons to do what you're doing. I think there's a 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:40.600 lot of guys now who just work to find work. 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:45.040 There are two or three good restoration folks out there 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.640 who look at the history, and there's guys who get 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:56.320 really serious about the historical data. That's not me. I 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:02.280 honestly just don't have time to be that guy. But 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:04.520 you better well. If you happen to be working on 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.119 a building that that Frank Lloyd Wright worked on or 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.920 Louis Sullivan worked on, you'd be hard pressed to move 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:16.439 away from that pedigree. And I kind of take the 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.400 same approach, whether it's our early work at Starter Golf 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.359 Club when I was consulting there, you know, the Glen 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.879 View Club, we tried to do a variation on the 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.840 Flint and obviously they changed horses a couple of times now, 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:36.680 but that's a great old club that has a terrific history, 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.439 and I still have a lot of friends there. But 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:44.359 we tried to do what we felt was right for them, 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.240 and that's typically what we try to do. You mentioned 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:51.760 Lake Geneva Country Club. You know, we work there as 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.600 well as Bigfoot down the Lake, you know, a couple 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.880 of miles away, and they could not be more different places. 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:05.000 They're physically different property with different histories. They both tend 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:08.960 to be weekend kind of clubs. But to do the 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:13.440 same thing at both of those properties, like many architects 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:17.919 would would be doing a complete disservice to them, to 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.119 each one of those guys. And so you can go 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:26.080 three miles from Lake Jimeiva Country Club to Bigfoot and 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:32.880 see dramatically different aesthetics and design goals and objectives, which 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:35.080 would be fun for me. Would I would have to 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:37.359 do something else if you call me that, we're just 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:41.160 going to do flashy bunkers or grass based bunkers everywhere. 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:44.440 You know, it's great. It's a lot of fun to 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.639 go through the intellectual exercise and sometimes the golf course 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:53.760 archaeological discovery of figuring out what a place should be. 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.080 Yeah, I mean I think I've seen, you know, a 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.719 good sampling of your work and all been different. 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:04.680 You know, you have Ravaslow. I think that the bunkers. 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.919 There, you know, you've got kind of grass faced bunkers 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:08.640 and they really push up. 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.840 Into the greens. And I mean that that job is 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:12.640 a really good one. 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:15.160 I always I always think about the fourth hole there, 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.439 that part three, and it's it's just it's such a 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:22.080 pain and the ass that hole because of the bunkers. 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.920 It is exactly and that was the one. Uh you're 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.520 probably old enough and and and some of the guys 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.360 listening uh played and you know remember na MAGA back 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:34.440 when they used to be junior golf and it became 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:37.440 the i G g A and you know guys who 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.320 played in the Western m Along the way, there's a 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:45.120 guy named Chuck Eckstein who was w G a cd 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.439 G official and Chuck was an early member and his 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:49.800 family was there and he goes, this is the one hole, 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:53.480 David that you know, we know that Donald Ross did 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:56.840 and if they had no budget. You know, that was 0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:01.560 our first construction job with Didge Golf Construction, which is 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:06.639 kind of the build portion of Esther Golf Design slash 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:12.359 Vintage Golf Construction Design build that we do. And I 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.520 get on a machine from time to time and I'm 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:20.320 not bad, but that was our very first construction job 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.080 and it was so much fun. They had zero dollars, 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.800 but we got an awful lot of really I think 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:34.880 important work done for not a lot of money. And 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:40.679 number four was one of those that had to be 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:44.520 just right. And while you could literally play ping pong 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:47.840 back and forth with sandshots, if the greens are fast 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.800 or if you're not skilled. That's what that hole was, 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:54.000 and we just put it back the way it was. 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:57.840 But that's a Graves was a fascinating If you look 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:01.040 at the old aerials, there were two hundred plus bunkers 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:08.119 on that property. Some were massive, some were tiny, and 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:11.360 while we didn't they didn't have the dollars to put 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:16.320 back everything, we gave a fair snattering of the variety 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:19.200 that was out there. There's a there's a good size 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:23.080 ten thousand square foot bunker with islands on the sixteenth hole, 0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:27.960 which is I don't know if it's a ross green, 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:30.440 but it sure feels like a ross green. It's kind 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:31.680 of like hitting it's a you know. 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:35.960 It's impossible bowl. It's impossible to hit the ball close there. 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:41.159 Yeah, and it's if you did one of those today, 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:45.240 you'd kind of et secured. And the concept is great. 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.880 It's just a little bit it's turned up to eleven 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:52.080 a little too much, but since it's been there for 0:24:52.200 --> 0:25:00.280 sixty five or ninety years, it's accepted and and we 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:02.719 you know, then we the previous hole. We've we've got 0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:04.959 a little pot bunker with stairs going down into it 0:25:05.040 --> 0:25:09.520 and and everything between some great little chocolate drops around 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:13.960 the greens just kind of speak to that turn of 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:15.680 the century character. 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:19.760 So I'm kind of curious, you know, with with all 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:23.480 your the restoration work you've done. And you know, if 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:26.840 you say, you know, I'm a I'm a GM or 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:29.720 i'm a you know, head of a greens committee at 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:33.719 a you know, old school course, what are kind of 0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:37.600 like the the easiest things you can do to you know, 0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:39.959 get a little bit back out of your course and 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:42.960 make it significantly better with you know, a tight budget. 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:47.639 Yeah, the the couple the low hangings tends to be 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:54.760 molly patterns, uh. And that can be anything from you know, 0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:58.359 pushing the fairway out in front of an old bunker 0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:03.280 or you don't even sometimes need to restore the sand 0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:07.679