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Speaker 1: I miss the green.

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Speaker 2: For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball

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Speaker 2: in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my.

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Speaker 3: Ball in a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg,

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Speaker 3: Frida Egg, Frida Egg.

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Speaker 1: Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the

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Speaker 1: golf course. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition

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Speaker 1: of the Friday Egg Podcast. Today we have as our

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Speaker 1: guest Dave Essler. Dave is a golf course architect who's

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Speaker 1: designed courses like Black Sheep Mount Prospect Golf Club and

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Speaker 1: then done a lot of restorations around the Chicagoland area,

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Speaker 1: including work at Ravslow GluN View Club, Chicago Golf Lake,

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Speaker 1: Geneva Country Club.

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Speaker 3: Dave, welcome on, Thanks for having me. There's breakfast included, right,

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Speaker 3: I assume that's part of the deal the Frida eggers at.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you get a gift card to our future breakfast

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Speaker 1: breakfast establishment.

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Speaker 3: It's in the works, Grand Slam.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's.

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Speaker 1: Gonna be called the it's gonna be called the Woke

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Speaker 1: Yoke to Coffee, shopping and breakfast.

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Speaker 3: Plus. Yeah, you guys are ahead of the curve. Wait,

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Speaker 3: maybe not ahead of the curve on the punching.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I heard it's kind of popular on weekends. Now, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I understand, so we're uh yeah, I mean I think

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Speaker 1: you got an interesting background. Dave played golf at Ohio State.

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Speaker 1: Still a stick. You know, don't let him tell you

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Speaker 1: he's not he you know, we found out really quickly

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Speaker 1: last Friday, like we played that he's a He's a

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Speaker 1: terrific sandbagger. Still still rolls in a lot of verdies.

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Speaker 3: Gift.

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Speaker 1: So I would love to hear a little bit about,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of how you got into golf from

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Speaker 1: the start, and you know, your your journey through golf

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Speaker 1: and how you became an architect.

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Speaker 3: The I was born a small notch uh the like

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Speaker 3: like everybody of my era. And before I grew up catting,

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Speaker 3: and uh, my dad was a school teacher and so

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Speaker 3: he had summers off and he worked at a golf

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Speaker 3: course near home in Wakanda, and my brother and I

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Speaker 3: grew up cattying. And you know, I'm glad there are

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Speaker 3: still folks who are institutionally and golf professionals who really

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Speaker 3: support that way of life introduction to the game, because

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Speaker 3: it really is an artery to creating golfers in with

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Speaker 3: all of the grow the Game initiatives, which are terrific. Uh,

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Speaker 3: there's there's really one proven method of getting people hooked

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Speaker 3: on the game and learn all the good things the

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Speaker 3: game can imbue in a personality and and revealing all

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Speaker 3: the bad things that the game can show off in

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Speaker 3: a personality. But the I grew up canning and playing

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Speaker 3: on Mondays. We were fortunate enough to get to play

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Speaker 3: golf just about everywhere that was good around Chicago on Mondays,

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Speaker 3: back in the days when clubs used to be closed

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Speaker 3: completely on Mundles.

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Speaker 2: What course did you grow up caddying at?

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Speaker 3: Built More Country Club? Which was not a great golf

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Speaker 3: course by any stretchy, it was close to home, and

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Speaker 3: you know, ended up becoming good friends with Jim Michael

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Speaker 3: and his family and spent a lot of summers hanging

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Speaker 3: out there, and you know, learned all the important lessons

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Speaker 3: of golf, how to swear, how to throw clubs hot up,

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Speaker 3: you know, flick matches in the Caddyshack, you know, all

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Speaker 3: the good lessons that you kind of saw in the

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Speaker 3: Caddyshack movie. But we were really fortunately because we would

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Speaker 3: go up and play back in you know, nineteen seventy

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Speaker 3: five to nineteen eighty five, when golf in Chicago had

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Speaker 3: actually golf courses in Chicago had a better reputation than

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Speaker 3: the reality. I mean, back then, probably the only really

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Speaker 3: really good golf courses were Story Acres in the Chicago

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Speaker 3: Golf Club, mostly because they hadn't been touched. Most everything

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Speaker 3: else at that period in Chicago used to have a

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Speaker 3: great reputation, even better than New York, which was I

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Speaker 3: don't want to sound like a homer, but the truth is,

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Speaker 3: it just wasn't comparable. There was a quantity, but not

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Speaker 3: a great quality, and the qualities improved quite a bit

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Speaker 3: a lot of the restorations and less so new development.

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Speaker 3: But in the last couple of decades there's been a

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Speaker 3: lot of really good work on the restoration front. But

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Speaker 3: so we played everywhere, and I got to see everything,

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Speaker 3: just about everything on Mondays, and then I played a

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Speaker 3: little bit and got to play in some really good

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Speaker 3: tournaments at some really good golf courses and saw things

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Speaker 3: that you know, public kid wouldn't otherwise have a chance

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Speaker 3: to be exposed to, on both the architecture and kind

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Speaker 3: of the socio economic front.

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Speaker 1: M So then you got good at golf, and you

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Speaker 1: went to Ohio State.

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Speaker 3: I kind of adequate at golf, I was, I was

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Speaker 3: not as good as I thought I was, And I

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Speaker 3: always I wanted to be an architect for whatever reason.

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Speaker 3: Granpa was an engineer, uncle was an architect. Architect, not

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Speaker 3: just a guy who waves his arm around, arms around

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Speaker 3: like like we do as golf course architects. But so

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Speaker 3: there must have been something in the DNA, I guess,

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Speaker 3: but I always knew I wanted to be involved in

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Speaker 3: golf course architecture, and you know, wrote the fifth grade

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Speaker 3: report and a lot of silly stuff and used to

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Speaker 3: draw drug alf holds, waiting to get out on Saturday

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Speaker 3: mornings as a young looper, and got decent enough to

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Speaker 3: have a chance to play at a big ten school.

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Speaker 3: When I got there, of course, figured out that there

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Speaker 3: was a whole bunch of guys who were really, really good,

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Speaker 3: better than I was, and grinding it out and had

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Speaker 3: had a decent career, got a you know, respectable education,

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Speaker 3: and played for a little while just because I felt

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Speaker 3: like I was as to and had a little success.

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Speaker 3: But frankly, like most of us, figure out, wow, everybody

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Speaker 3: else is really good. I thought I was but yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's who are.

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Speaker 1: Some of the guys you played with back then that

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Speaker 1: you know people would know and like it was there.

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Speaker 2: When was your.

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Speaker 1: Moment when you really knew, you know, I need to

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Speaker 1: get a real job.

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Speaker 3: It was My moment was actually earlier than I realized.

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Speaker 3: It was probably my first or second. It's probably my

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Speaker 3: second year in college, maybe my third year in college.

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Speaker 3: We played with guys like Scott for Plank. On our team.

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Speaker 3: We had Chris Perry and Clark Burrows. They in one year.

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Speaker 3: In the same year they both played in the Masters,

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Speaker 3: So a couple of us actually got to play in

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Speaker 3: a spring tournament because those guys were busy. And I remember,

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Speaker 3: you know, just watching guys hit shots that I just

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Speaker 3: wasn't capable of. I spent some time my brother and

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Speaker 3: I worked at Kemper Lakes and they used to have now, shoot,

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Speaker 3: what was it? The wasn't the World Series ago, but

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Speaker 3: there were four guys the major champions, and I caddied

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Speaker 3: in the Grand Slam, right, Grand Slam of Golf exactly,

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Speaker 3: and I think mc I was involved with it somehow.

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Speaker 3: I remember caddying for Norman and we played a lot

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Speaker 3: of golf and ran carts. There's a fella named Bob

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Speaker 3: Spence who was just gentlemen of the game, played exceptionally well.

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Speaker 3: It was a terrific marketer. It was a fantastic teacher,

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Speaker 3: you know, cut from the mold, back when the golf

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Speaker 3: pro was the guy at a private club, because he

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Speaker 3: knew everything, could fixed clubs, could knew all the rules,

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Speaker 3: knew a little bit of something about agronomy. And so

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Speaker 3: Bob took my brother and I under his winging at

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Speaker 3: Kemper Lakes back when it was just nine holes. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: fast forward, so watch Greg Norton. We play a lot

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Speaker 3: of golf at Temper Lakes, and you figure out where

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Speaker 3: you hit the golf ball on certain conditions. And I

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Speaker 3: just watched Norman fly at sixty five yards further and

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Speaker 3: my Sunday punch, and I thought, yeah, he can do

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Speaker 3: stuff that I can't do. And you know, that was

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Speaker 3: the beginning of the end of a largely unfruitful playing career.

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Speaker 3: But the good thing about those exposures to competition is

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Speaker 3: you meet a bunch of guys who are really good guys,

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Speaker 3: and you get to see places in at least in

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Speaker 3: my industry, you get to see places that you good,

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Speaker 3: ugly or you know, just mediocrity. Lessons about golf course,

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Speaker 3: about golf courses, what.

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Speaker 1: Was your favorite course you got to compete at, like

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Speaker 1: from like a from a competitive golf standpoint, I.

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Speaker 3: Love playing the old Scarlet for anybody who played in

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Speaker 3: the Kepler and it was it was it was home.

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Speaker 3: Of course, it was Robert Hunter routing I'm sorry, and

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Speaker 3: Mackenzie routing that Robert Hunter had finished. It has since

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Speaker 3: been substantially altered by mister Nicholas, but it was big,

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Speaker 3: brewedish and nuanced at the same time. It only really

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Speaker 3: had one awkward hole and that was eighteen. That kind

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Speaker 3: of still exists. It was a big, hard dog like

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Speaker 3: left but for a lot of guys, for your listeners,

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Speaker 3: I besting there's quite a few who played there before

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Speaker 3: Nicholas modified the golf course or updated at whatever they

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Speaker 3: however they packaged it. But it was so good. It

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Speaker 3: would test everything he had and I learned a lot

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Speaker 3: about course management there. They didn't really put to good use.

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Speaker 1: So with that, I'm always you know, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that always makes me sad is when when you

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Speaker 1: lose like truly great golf courses and from everything I've

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Speaker 1: heard about the old scarlet, it was one of those,

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Speaker 1: and you know, now it's it's kind of, you know,

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Speaker 1: a little bit more contrived. It's got the you know,

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Speaker 1: segmented off greens and and and I'm just kind of curious, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, in terms of like what it lost the

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Speaker 1: most of what what kind of was the and what

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Speaker 1: was the you know, impetus. Was it just because of

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Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas's design career, like, you know, like how did

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Speaker 1: this all happen? Why did somebody think it was a

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Speaker 1: good idea?

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Speaker 3: Well, I honestly don't know the politics behind it, but

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Speaker 3: obviously he's a ridiculous force in the game, let alone

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Speaker 3: in Columbus, Ohio, So there was an inevitability about mister

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Speaker 3: Nicholas and his team being involved. We actually applied, so

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Speaker 3: he made as a middle and among I'm sure other

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Speaker 3: folks I assume Herding and Fry did as well, and

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Speaker 3: a bunch of guys because it was a it was

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Speaker 3: a plumb of a job. But he had been foolish

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Speaker 3: to think that that he wasn't gonna end up doing

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Speaker 3: the job anyway. Honestly, don't know. I assume that the

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Speaker 3: response was largely agonomically. The place was never great when

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Speaker 3: I was there, and I suspect that contributed as well

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Speaker 3: as the ridiculous distances that the golf ball does. You know,

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Speaker 3: a really good example of that is a place that

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Speaker 3: you and I talked about last week, the place called

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Speaker 3: Bellevue Biltmore, which I think is not long for the world.

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Speaker 3: It's a real Donald Ross golf course time in clear Water,

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Speaker 3: and we were fortunate enough to be involved in the

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Speaker 3: restoration and rebuilding of a kind of a design build

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Speaker 3: approach a couple of years ago. And it turns out

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Speaker 3: that one of the local rich guys is going to

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Speaker 3: buy it from the city, which is kind of unfathomable,

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Speaker 3: but that the city would sell an open space asset

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Speaker 3: like that. But you know, those those make me really

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Speaker 3: sad when a really ideal, niche golf course that has

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Speaker 3: some history, has some architectural integrity disappears. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I suppose part of this progress and we've lost a

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Speaker 3: lot of them. But when when you lose them for

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Speaker 3: no good reason, it just seems unnecessary. And you know,

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Speaker 3: not that I'm the doian of all things style, but

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure that what used to be at the

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Speaker 3: Scarlet course is probably better than what's there now, and

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Speaker 3: what is at BELvue Builtmore today is probably better than

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Speaker 3: what we'll be there now. If you happen to be

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Speaker 3: a high networks individual, that may be arguable. But for

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Speaker 3: the mass market of the as Mike Guyser causes, for

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Speaker 3: the retail golfer, it's an unfortunate trend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've played that Belvie Builtmore course when I

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Speaker 1: was in Tampa, had no expectations of it going in

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Speaker 1: and I was blown away. It was probably like three

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Speaker 1: four years ago for a bachelor party and or not

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Speaker 1: bachelor wedding, and you know it has a volcano hoole.

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Speaker 2: It's just got some great quirk.

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Speaker 1: It's got the it's just got the ross old school

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Speaker 1: ross field that you know was you know, the trademark

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Speaker 1: playability for everybody, but the nuance and the you know,

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Speaker 1: the detail that that and strategy required to score is

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Speaker 1: so high.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a It's a terrific golf course that

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Speaker 3: serves a fantastically important niche, particularly in Florida where it's

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Speaker 3: KRK ball and you know water everywhere that that place

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Speaker 3: had very little water in play and easily walkable, very

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Speaker 3: accessible and fun. And we we imbued it in the

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Speaker 3: last year, I mean was two sofwers ago. Now with

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Speaker 3: a good bit more ross and some quirk, like you said,

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Speaker 3: added some center fairlyay bunkers and some strategy to the

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Speaker 3: second dot on the par fives. But that happens, and

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Speaker 3: and the ship is sale. It's just, uh, good news

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Speaker 3: is there are so many more golf courses around that

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Speaker 3: are being restored to their golden age characteristics. And that's

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Speaker 3: the that's the good news. On the upside of us

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Speaker 3: of that story, I suppose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious that you know, like if say you

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Speaker 1: know Scarlet, like say you know, twenty years down the line,

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Speaker 1: there becomes a movement to restore.

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Speaker 2: It back to.

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Speaker 1: What it once was, Like how how far has it

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Speaker 1: moved from there? Like if it was on a sliding

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Speaker 1: scale of one to ten, you know, one being you

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Speaker 1: know as far away as it could possibly be, you know,

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Speaker 1: like it would it?

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Speaker 2: You know, is it possible to bring it back?

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Speaker 3: It is the only hole to my memory that physically

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Speaker 3: changed was the force. And I think the green is

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Speaker 3: a lot further that Part five, the part five. Part

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Speaker 3: five was one of the best part five. Again, you

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Speaker 3: got to remember it was ballattas and steel shafts and

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Speaker 3: persimmon and take that into consideration. Well it also old

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Speaker 3: fourth with new equipment would be you know, there's there's

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Speaker 3: lots of guys whould drive wedge into that into that

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Speaker 3: old hole with today's equipment.

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Speaker 2: So it dug.

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Speaker 1: Which isn't uh isn't is it doesn't really fit Jack's eye.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's got to have something with with a

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Speaker 1: fade approach, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, every once in a while you got to go, uh,

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Speaker 3: play against type, I guess, but yeah, that was that

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Speaker 3: was certainly his m O early on in his career.

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Speaker 3: And I I don't know that it still is or

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Speaker 3: universe that's a valid argument, uh universally, but yeah, early

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Speaker 3: on that was certainly happening. But we I suppose we

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Speaker 3: all do that to some to some degree, I find

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Speaker 3: myself doing some of the you know, and I make

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Speaker 3: a cognizant effort every time I go to a job

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Speaker 3: to try to do what's right for the project and

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Speaker 3: not what I have done, and that really puts some

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Speaker 3: folks at unease. And we had a chance to get

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Speaker 3: hired by a nice private club in town I said,

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Speaker 3: I really don't know what we're going to do. I

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Speaker 3: need some time to think about what you guys are

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Speaker 3: in the marketplace and what this golf course should be.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I tend to fall back on the

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Speaker 3: best architect who may have ever worked on a property.

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Speaker 3: For example, when we redid Ravoslolt was an easy one

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Speaker 3: when we read it was obviously Donald Ross was in

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Speaker 3: and out of there. And when we redid park Ridge

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Speaker 3: many years ago, Bill Langford had done some work there

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Speaker 3: and so we largely went with that flavor. We just

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Speaker 3: redid again. On the design design build side, we redid Riverside.

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Speaker 3: We did a bunch of the bunkers at Riverside, and

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Speaker 3: it's an easy decision to make. We didn't move any

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Speaker 3: golf holes or anything, but of the things we touched,

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Speaker 3: we did so in the Bill lank for style, and

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Speaker 3: that's an easily defensible I can sleep at night saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, this is what we're doing, and this is

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Speaker 3: why we're doing it. And I can remember my education

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Speaker 3: early on back Columbuses. You better have some really good

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Speaker 3: reasons to do what you're doing. I think there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of guys now who just work to find work.

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Speaker 3: There are two or three good restoration folks out there

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Speaker 3: who look at the history, and there's guys who get

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Speaker 3: really serious about the historical data. That's not me. I

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Speaker 3: honestly just don't have time to be that guy. But

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Speaker 3: you better well. If you happen to be working on

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Speaker 3: a building that that Frank Lloyd Wright worked on or

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Speaker 3: Louis Sullivan worked on, you'd be hard pressed to move

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Speaker 3: away from that pedigree. And I kind of take the

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Speaker 3: same approach, whether it's our early work at Starter Golf

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Speaker 3: Club when I was consulting there, you know, the Glen

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Speaker 3: View Club, we tried to do a variation on the

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Speaker 3: Flint and obviously they changed horses a couple of times now,

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Speaker 3: but that's a great old club that has a terrific history,

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Speaker 3: and I still have a lot of friends there. But

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Speaker 3: we tried to do what we felt was right for them,

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Speaker 3: and that's typically what we try to do. You mentioned

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Speaker 3: Lake Geneva Country Club. You know, we work there as

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Speaker 3: well as Bigfoot down the Lake, you know, a couple

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Speaker 3: of miles away, and they could not be more different places.

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Speaker 3: They're physically different property with different histories. They both tend

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Speaker 3: to be weekend kind of clubs. But to do the

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Speaker 3: same thing at both of those properties, like many architects

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Speaker 3: would would be doing a complete disservice to them, to

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Speaker 3: each one of those guys. And so you can go

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Speaker 3: three miles from Lake Jimeiva Country Club to Bigfoot and

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Speaker 3: see dramatically different aesthetics and design goals and objectives, which

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Speaker 3: would be fun for me. Would I would have to

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Speaker 3: do something else if you call me that, we're just

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Speaker 3: going to do flashy bunkers or grass based bunkers everywhere.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's great. It's a lot of fun to

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Speaker 3: go through the intellectual exercise and sometimes the golf course

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Speaker 3: archaeological discovery of figuring out what a place should be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think I've seen, you know, a

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Speaker 1: good sampling of your work and all been different.

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Speaker 4: You know, you have Ravaslow. I think that the bunkers.

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Speaker 1: There, you know, you've got kind of grass faced bunkers

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Speaker 1: and they really push up.

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Speaker 4: Into the greens. And I mean that that job is

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Speaker 4: a really good one.

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Speaker 1: I always I always think about the fourth hole there,

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Speaker 1: that part three, and it's it's just it's such a

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Speaker 1: pain and the ass that hole because of the bunkers.

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Speaker 3: It is exactly and that was the one. Uh you're

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Speaker 3: probably old enough and and and some of the guys

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Speaker 3: listening uh played and you know remember na MAGA back

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Speaker 3: when they used to be junior golf and it became

348
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Speaker 3: the i G g A and you know guys who

349
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Speaker 3: played in the Western m Along the way, there's a

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Speaker 3: guy named Chuck Eckstein who was w G a cd

351
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Speaker 3: G official and Chuck was an early member and his

352
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Speaker 3: family was there and he goes, this is the one hole,

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Speaker 3: David that you know, we know that Donald Ross did

354
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Speaker 3: and if they had no budget. You know, that was

355
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Speaker 3: our first construction job with Didge Golf Construction, which is

356
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Speaker 3: kind of the build portion of Esther Golf Design slash

357
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Speaker 3: Vintage Golf Construction Design build that we do. And I

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Speaker 3: get on a machine from time to time and I'm

359
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 3: not bad, but that was our very first construction job

360
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Speaker 3: and it was so much fun. They had zero dollars,

361
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 3: but we got an awful lot of really I think

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Speaker 3: important work done for not a lot of money. And

363
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 3: number four was one of those that had to be

364
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Speaker 3: just right. And while you could literally play ping pong

365
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 3: back and forth with sandshots, if the greens are fast

366
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: or if you're not skilled. That's what that hole was,

367
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Speaker 3: and we just put it back the way it was.

368
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Speaker 3: But that's a Graves was a fascinating If you look

369
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Speaker 3: at the old aerials, there were two hundred plus bunkers

370
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Speaker 3: on that property. Some were massive, some were tiny, and

371
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 3: while we didn't they didn't have the dollars to put

372
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Speaker 3: back everything, we gave a fair snattering of the variety

373
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Speaker 3: that was out there. There's a there's a good size

374
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Speaker 3: ten thousand square foot bunker with islands on the sixteenth hole,

375
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Speaker 3: which is I don't know if it's a ross green,

376
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Speaker 3: but it sure feels like a ross green. It's kind

377
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Speaker 3: of like hitting it's a you know.

378
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Speaker 2: It's impossible bowl. It's impossible to hit the ball close there.

379
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's if you did one of those today,

380
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Speaker 3: you'd kind of et secured. And the concept is great.

381
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Speaker 3: It's just a little bit it's turned up to eleven

382
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Speaker 3: a little too much, but since it's been there for

383
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Speaker 3: sixty five or ninety years, it's accepted and and we

384
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Speaker 3: you know, then we the previous hole. We've we've got

385
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Speaker 3: a little pot bunker with stairs going down into it

386
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: and and everything between some great little chocolate drops around

387
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Speaker 3: the greens just kind of speak to that turn of

388
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Speaker 3: the century character.

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Speaker 1: So I'm kind of curious, you know, with with all

390
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Speaker 1: your the restoration work you've done. And you know, if

391
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Speaker 1: you say, you know, I'm a I'm a GM or

392
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Speaker 1: i'm a you know, head of a greens committee at

393
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,719
Speaker 1: a you know, old school course, what are kind of

394
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: like the the easiest things you can do to you know,

395
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 1: get a little bit back out of your course and

396
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Speaker 1: make it significantly better with you know, a tight budget.

397
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Speaker 3: Yeah, the the couple the low hangings tends to be

398
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 3: molly patterns, uh. And that can be anything from you know,

399
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 3: pushing the fairway out in front of an old bunker

400
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: or you don't even sometimes need to restore the sand

401
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 3: in the bunker because that costs money. And depending on

402
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 3: where you are within the Chicago district, you may have

403
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of money, or you may not have

404
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of money, but you may still have

405
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 3: a significant, a historically architecturally significant asset. And sometimes just

406
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 3: simply not touching the ground itself, but pushing the bent

407
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 3: cress in front of an old feature, whether it's a

408
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 3: series of chocolate drops or an old bunker gives the

409
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 3: illusion that that mound cuts into the fairway, even if

410
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 3: it cuts into the faraway at the God forbid the

411
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,239
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty yards off the tee or know

412
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 3: at quote unquote the wrong distance. And everybody wants to

413
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 3: put bunkers out there at to eighty five or nowadays

414
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: it's even three bills. But those features that help frame

415
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 3: the view, the more you can x scent them. In

416
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 3: various committees meetings and board meetings, I always kind of

417
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 3: give the analogy of so many of our golf course

418
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 3: fairways have become runways because they've become overplanted and undermode.

419
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 3: That's kind of the effect of the mowing pattern in

420
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 3: the fairway. But when you have the opportunity up by

421
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 3: the green to start to mow around the outside of

422
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 3: the blookers, and we did a lot at Belgium, built

423
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 3: more and partially because it was easy down there, because

424
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 3: it was all bermuda. We're up here you have to consider, well,

425
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 3: if we're going to do that, we have to take

426
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 3: the bluegrass and changes to band grass typically but not always,

427
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 3: And you have to be a little more cognizant of

428
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 3: surface drainage and top dressing and all those things. But

429
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 3: just shortening the height of cut around the green sixteen

430
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 3: at raves Low is a good example. You know. You

431
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 3: mow all the way around that, and it's a little

432
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 3: bit more equitable and a lot more interesting, whereas if

433
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: you go one hundred yards and you try to mow

434
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 3: around the fourteenth green at raps Though, it's not quite

435
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: as interesting in terms of equitable, you know, I don't know,

436
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 3: it's just because of the filled platform and the green surrounds.

437
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's a it's a fantastic way to go about it,

438
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 3: and sometimes it's not. Yeah, But regardless, when you do that,

439
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: it's very inexpensive. Having said that, you know, maybe number

440
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: two is tree removal, but that is far away the

441
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 3: most politically charged potential third rail of golf course modifications.

442
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: And people love their trees, you know they do.

443
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, how many times I've heard, well it's

444
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 3: always been this way? Well no, actually, in nineteen twenty seven,

445
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 3: this photograph right here, it has not always been that way.

446
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: You know, I've got photographs of Oak Park Country Club.

447
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 3: I know you'll be playing there in the ridds next week,

448
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: is it next week? Yeah? Next week? There's there's the

449
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 3: old original pre white person settlement oak trees up to

450
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 3: the east of the clubhouse in the photograph, and there's

451
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 3: some other things that are out there, but there's not much.

452
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I have a final story.

453
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: But it's you know, people believe that it's always been

454
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: that way, but it has anyway.

455
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: Sorry, I was at a meeting at where I play golf,

456
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: and I guess apparently our superintendent met one of our

457
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: old superintendents. I forgot what the year span was, but

458
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: the first thing he said to him was I'm sorry,

459
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: and he said for what, and he goes, you know,

460
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: I got ordered to plant four thousand silver maple trees

461
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: because we got a great deal on them. So you know,

462
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: you look at our of course, it's just you know,

463
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: you see these old pictures, there's not a tree in sight,

464
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: maybe one or two.

465
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: And now we've got one of the.

466
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: Most heavily treed golf courses in Chicago, and you know,

467
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: I've been sent there banging a we got to cut

468
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: these down, and sure enough, like in the seventies, four

469
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: thousand trees were planted, don't yeah.

470
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and bad trees, I mean oak trees would be

471
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: one thing hickory, you know, yellow wood native plant material

472
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: to Illinois. And I'm not cheer that need for tree planting.

473
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: God knows that. But there are places to plant trees.

474
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 3: There are, and there are the correct trees to plant.

475
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: We'll all lose and silver maples and Norway maples, the

476
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 3: casts an incredible nono shade are not the right ones,

477
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: you know, to your point, And it's not the seventies

478
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 3: and eighties. It's not the effect of the all Dutch

479
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 3: l disease which is now kind of manifested itself in

480
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 3: the autumn put flash or the ash boar. It's still

481
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 3: happening today. I just last year one of my clients,

482
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 3: who has a nurseryman as a member, said, you know,

483
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 3: this fellow wants to donate thirty five trees to the club.

484
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: We want you to figure out where to put them.

485
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 3: And you know, I'm getting to the point in my

486
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 3: career where I'm a little bit more blunt. You know,

487
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 3: you try to politically couch it. And I said, the

488
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 3: best place to put him is in his nursery. You

489
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 3: know you don't want them, You want the opposite. You

490
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: are to donate chainsaw and stump grinding time that would

491
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 3: be a good use of his you know, and trust me,

492
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: I said it more, Yes, delicately, delicately because you have

493
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: to unless you happen to be the benevolent dictator in

494
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: a club. And those places almost do not exist anymore.

495
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 3: But it's still happening, and there are still places where

496
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 3: there are guys who who want to plant a whole

497
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 3: bunch of trees and lose sight of the fact that

498
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: the trees are there to support the golf. The golf

499
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 3: is not there to support the trees. And like I said,

500
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 3: there are there are on most properties. There are plenty

501
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: of places to plant some trees for specific purposes, whether

502
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 3: it's safety or control the views. But to make the

503
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: golf course harder quote unquote tends to not be one

504
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 3: of the right ones.

505
00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't.

506
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: I have firmly believe it doesn't make the golf course

507
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: harder because it just thins out the grass. It makes

508
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: it harder for the the you know, average player, but

509
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: for the for the better player, it sends out the

510
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: grass and lets you control your shot into the green

511
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: versus you know, the worst thing is thick grass, you

512
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: know for a good player, So you know you've worked

513
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: with it worked across a bunch of different architects here

514
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: in Chicago and you know down in in in Florida.

515
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: I'm kind of I'm curious. You know, who you've kind

516
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: of come to found is like the underappreciated genius of

517
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: the bunch.

518
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 4: And it could be one.

519
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: It could be you know, a couple just you know,

520
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: one that doesn't come up often that you know, really

521
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: was a guy that got it.

522
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, to me, the guy who got it and he's

523
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: getting they're getting more at was Bill Lankford lank for tomorrow.

524
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 3: I'd love to have something more obscure. Herbert Strong did

525
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 3: a lot of really great work, almost none of which

526
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 3: is anywhere near us but around these parts. For my money,

527
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 3: everybody knows Donald Ross now and obviously did a great

528
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: deal of fantastic work. But when we've gone to a

529
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 3: property where Langford and Moreau have been, it's always a

530
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: surprise how good the work is. And part of it

531
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 3: I suspect was the influence of Charles Blair McDonald. And

532
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: they're kind of ova of archetype golf holes. You see

533
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: Langford Moreau PLoP goes down from time to time, whether

534
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 3: it's a ra dan, whether it's an Eden or Sahara,

535
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 3: probably because Langford played at Yale and was exposed to

536
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 3: those golf holes. Uh, incredibly dramatic. They they're they're they're bold,

537
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 3: an amazing set of God, it's an amazing collection of

538
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: golf holds and a collection overall, a place overall. The

539
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 3: individual holes are little bit the fabulous pearls that combine

540
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 3: into just an extraordinarily beautiful necklace. And there are a

541
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 3: lot of places like that, Fisher's Island, you know, one

542
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: of my favorite places to golf from the planet. Same

543
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 3: kind of thing. Each one of those holes, if they

544
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 3: existed on their own, would be just a joy to

545
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 3: play one time. But then when you string eighteen of

546
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 3: them together, it's it's just a magnificent experience.

547
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: So in terms of just kind of when you're laying

548
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: out of course and you know, we played Black Sheep,

549
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: we played eighteen, and you know, it just kind of

550
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: it flows together and there's you know, there's there's lulls

551
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: and highs. You know, it never felt like we were

552
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: playing thanks, you know, yeah, and it didn't seem like

553
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: you moved a ton of dirt there, Like, how how

554
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: do you go about you know, laying out a golf

555
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: course and and plotting out you know, the green. So

556
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: do you walk the property a ton like? You know,

557
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: I'm always curious as to your philosophy.

558
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 3: Well, I I haven't had the opportunity to do enough

559
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 3: of them, obviously. And in the you talk about music

560
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 3: artists who you know, their first album may be spectacular

561
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 3: and then oh my gosh, you got to do another one,

562
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: and then you really see what the person's got. We've

563
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 3: had a little bit of that opportunity, but to but

564
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 3: Black People is really the first big one. And you know,

565
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 3: I didn't spit out all of the ideas on that one,

566
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 3: but on that particular and the thing that I believe

567
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 3: is between you know, in the world of architectural geekdom

568
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 3: is often overlooked and misunderstood. Is the external influences, whether

569
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 3: it's an owner, a couple of owners, the overall business plan,

570
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 3: the site itself, the regulatory issues. If there's a world

571
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 3: in which it is extremely difficult to compare apples and apples,

572
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 3: it's golf and golf course architecture, because no two sites,

573
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 3: whether it's they're immediately proximate to one another. For example,

574
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 3: on a sunset Valley and Bobbling they share a common border,

575
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 3: but they couldn't be different, more different products, different end users,

576
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: different original architects, and so it's very difficult to say, boy,

577
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 3: this was really successful if that guy's a good architect,

578
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 3: because you could never replicate the same conditions. Let's say that,

579
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 3: you know, Tom Doak gets a project and then you

580
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 3: erase Tom Doak's work, and then Dave Vessler gets a

581
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 3: project and you compare them side the same project. To

582
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 3: compare them side by side, it never happens, and so

583
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 3: the best you can do kind of is look at

584
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 3: each site in each project and each set of conditions

585
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 3: and hope that you can get the best out of them.

586
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 3: Black Sheep was obviously a good, great opportunity for me

587
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: to do some really, really good work, mostly because we

588
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 3: had a pretty free hand in routing the place and

589
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 3: sequencing the holes and determining the overall style, which was

590
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 3: the point of conversation early on. You know, I said, Vince,

591
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: we need to we need to think of this place

592
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 3: unlike any other place in Chicago at the time, not

593
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 3: the same converge we had at Glubi Club, which didn't

594
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 3: obviously end as well for me. But I view that

595
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 3: particular experience as a badge of honor that I knew

596
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 3: what I wanted to do, they didn't like it, and

597
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 3: I feel bad that it didn't live in the world

598
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 3: in the words of HS Cult. But to circle back

599
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 3: to Blacksheet, but we were fixed with the clubhouse site,

600
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 3: so that was a given. In the middle of the site,

601
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 3: there was a road and utilities were already extended, so

602
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 3: we weren't going to move anything in terms of infrastructure,

603
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 3: and so its a matter of starting from the high point,

604
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 3: which we didn't have the ability to change, nor necessarily

605
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 3: what I've wanted to change in that particular case, and

606
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: how do we move in and out and around so

607
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 3: that it's interesting in terms of whole type, whole direction

608
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 3: because obviously the wind. You know, if it's windy ear,

609
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 3: if it's a little windy at your house, it's blown

610
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: out there. And so we've got sixty to in some

611
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 3: cases one hundred yard wide fairways, particularly on holes nineteen

612
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 3: through twenty seven, where you're really exposed, and you need that.

613
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 3: With on a day like to that you and I

614
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 3: are talking, there's probably a two mile an hour wind,

615
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 3: but out there at maybe five or ten. But when

616
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 3: it blows thirty and it's firm and fast, the ball

617
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 3: runs out and you need that room to so that

618
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 3: you can play golf. So that was an easy decision

619
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 3: to make. Hand in hand. That came with triple and

620
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 3: quadruple and sometimes quintuple with irrigation, and then the overall

621
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 3: aesthetic it was, you know, we need to be thinking

622
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 3: about prairie dunes. We're not quite sand hills, we don't

623
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 3: have that magnitude of landscape. But I felt like prairie

624
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 3: dunes was a pretty good placeholder in terms of early

625
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 3: on meetings and concept. We need to restore the native landscape.

626
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 3: You know, when I first walked property, I think I

627
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: told you this around maybe somebody else that week that

628
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 3: we drove up to the property and I made the

629
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 3: sick non architect marketing mistake and said, you know, mister Silana,

630
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 3: you haven't you haven't actually bought this part. You haven't

631
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 3: closed on this prout yet, have you. Because when you're

632
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 3: driving up to the site from from outside, it doesn't

633
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 3: look like much, you know, which is completely the other

634
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 3: end of the spectrum. I'm sure you've read it fifty

635
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 3: seven hundred times. Golf digest that the architect proclaimed that

636
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: this was the greatest idea or she had ever seen

637
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 3: for golf. Yeah, you know, I I just probably have

638
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 3: an aumental, you know, moment and went, what are you're

639
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 3: thinking of? This is not the site you want? But

640
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 3: he had already closed and looked past.

641
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 2: My Hey, you were being honest. Honestly pays a lot,

642
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: you know.

643
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 3: But then when you yeah, occasionally have you when you

644
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 3: getting married September, I'm just you know, speaking to the

645
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 3: honesty question. Yeah, I'm just kidding. No, I've been married

646
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 3: almost thirty years. Anyway, the u so I, you know,

647
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 3: recovered with Vince and said, you know, you're very for

648
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 3: what eat on on the property. There's quite a bit

649
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 3: of physical movement, and it's a pretty good site. It's

650
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 3: not a great set, but it's a pretty good site.

651
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 3: And I said, you know, we're not going to have

652
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 3: to spend a lot of money to build this golf course.

653
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 3: We're going to have to shape the greens, we're going

654
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 3: to have to drain some areas, build the tey complexes,

655
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 3: but we're not stripping the top sail from the entire property.

656
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 3: Just because we can do it doesn't mean we should

657
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 3: do it. And so with the exception of the bottom

658
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,439
Speaker 3: lands where there's you know, we had to build a lake.

659
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 3: I tried to get out of play, but we had

660
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: to build an irrigation lake, and it really wasn't anywhere

661
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 3: to hide it. So and I'd love to be able

662
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 3: to have been able to hide it by that piece

663
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 3: of ground, it just wasn't going to happen. And so

664
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 3: we incorporated it on a couple of holes. The only

665
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: three holes on the property that play in the generally

666
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 3: the same cardinal direction four, five, and six could not

667
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 3: be more different in terms of the type of golf

668
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 3: holes they are, But every other golf hole there changes

669
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 3: direction with respect to the wind. You know, plays a

670
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 3: little upfill downhill, and you do those permutations, and yes,

671
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 3: you do walk to site a lot and that that's

672
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 3: just part of the process, you know, the corn crunch.

673
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 3: Our guys are notorious for doing that, and yes, that's

674
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 3: that's that's the way to learn the site, yeah, and

675
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 3: and get the best out of it is to spend

676
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 3: time with the total maps are really a great starting point,

677
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 3: but they are a starting point and not the whole

678
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 3: process by any stretch.

679
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 1: So you know, move into another project which I think,

680
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: sure you know, I've got a lot of readers and

681
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: listeners I know that love template holes and template hole golf.

682
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: You know, you want the Prospect for Mount Prospects, which

683
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, if you were going to describe the the

684
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 1: plot of land, I think it's it's flat, it's very constricted,

685
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: and you know, it doesn't possess a lot of features

686
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: that that people would be jumping over the moon to

687
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: get to get. But I think you know, in this

688
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: in this instance, you know, you see you saw with

689
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 1: a lot of rainer courses where you know, he took

690
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: flat pieces of land and made him really good golf

691
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: courses by by doing you know, building spectacular green complexes

692
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: and using these surefire you know, whole templates you know

693
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 1: to production. So you know, tak us a little bit

694
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: through the thought process and evolution of Mount Prospect.

695
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 3: Mount Prospect was just a fantastic prop project for me

696
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 3: to be involved because uh with which to be involved,

697
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 3: partially because you know, I had tangentially had a real

698
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 3: connection to the place. Like I said, we played everywhere

699
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 3: and there were a bunch of guys growing up on Mondays.

700
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 3: Not that that was a private club, but actually it

701
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 3: was a private club many many many years ago in

702
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 3: the twenties, and I had known a lot of guys

703
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 3: who grew up there and went through the high school,

704
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 3: and I g g A ranks, and I knew it

705
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: at a place that created golfers, not unlike Village Links.

706
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 3: You know, David Glott and Gary Pinn's and Doug Pin's,

707
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 3: and there were a lot of guys who would just

708
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 3: hang out there and play golf and evolved into competitive golfers.

709
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 3: And Mount Prospect was also one of those places, and

710
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 3: so I also knew I felt like Mount Prospect was

711
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 3: very much a as close to a kind of a

712
00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 3: private club, you know, public setting. It's in the neighborhood.

713
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 3: And when I went back, I think for the second

714
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 3: or third meeting, there were guys walking down the sidewalk

715
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 3: with their poll carts to go to the golf course.

716
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 3: And while that's almost a Scottish aesthetic, you know, the

717
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 3: club in the village that's open to the public. And

718
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 3: so it was kind of an interesting flavor. And every

719
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 3: medium to small town should have a Mount Prospect golf course,

720
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 3: a place to grow golfers and kind of a community

721
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 3: center away from the community center, and so it was

722
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 3: really important for me too. They had one of the

723
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 3: most dangerous driving ranges and under fitted facilities imaginable. They

724
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 3: had some people get hit and fortunately, you know, no

725
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 3: legal action, but it was a liability, and so we

726
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 3: looked at it as how do we figure out there

727
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 3: are so many high school kids who can learn to

728
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 3: play golf there and they use it like crazy, and

729
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 3: they've been very successful. So we wanted to find a

730
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 3: place where there could be a substantial practice facility. And unfortunately,

731
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 3: after a whole bunch of iterations and permutations of routing

732
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 3: and working within the floodplaine, and we figured out how

733
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 3: to build you know, half an acre range to you

734
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 3: at three hundred yard long range talent. And the thinking was,

735
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 3: what's the least the audable thing on the property. Typically

736
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 3: it's the floodplane, and in that case it was the

737
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 3: horrible ninety degree dog leg right eighteenth hole, and I

738
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 3: don't know if you remember it, but it was not

739
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 3: a great hole. And so I thought, well, how can

740
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 3: we take the liability which is a very awkward finishing

741
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 3: hole that floods and turn it into houcki We you

742
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 3: reuse the space, kind of co opt some of the

743
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 3: maintenance facility space, and so we landed with the driving

744
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 3: range there, took the old short game area, made a

745
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 3: brand new hole to the east end, ended up having

746
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 3: to move a couple of golf holes, so you know,

747
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 3: I tried not to do that, but we ended up

748
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 3: with a couple of big holes on the back then,

749
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 3: because there are a whole bunch of holes in the

750
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 3: back that were three hundred and sixty yard holes and

751
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 3: although I have no problem with that, you don't need

752
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 3: six of them on one nine. Mostly retained the front

753
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 3: nine routing, but really am very proud to have created

754
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 3: a terrific practice facility where you know, for the next

755
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 3: hundred years folks will learn to play golf there. So

756
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 3: that and we went there, you know, opening day and

757
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 3: a couple of days after, and there's a million kids

758
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 3: running around. And as I get older, that's obviously becomes

759
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 3: of more value. But with respect to the golf course

760
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 3: and the design decisions that were made, you know, nobody

761
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 3: asked what we're going to do in terms of style.

762
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 3: Along the process, they needed to redo the irrigation system,

763
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 3: They need a lot of drainage work, and so eventually

764
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 3: collectively they landed on. We need to rebuild the golf

765
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 3: course and as much as we can add these other assets,

766
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 3: the access facility, the short game area, assive putting green,

767
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 3: and a range arranged tea and a short game area

768
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 3: at the end for the high schoolers. If we can

769
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 3: get all that stuff too, it's a total slam dunk.

770
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 3: We were able to do it, but nobody ever really

771
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 3: asked about the style of the golf course. And so,

772
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 3: you know, we had done Raveslow and it had become

773
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 3: open to the public, and so there was some Donald

774
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 3: Ross golf course that was available in Chicago to the

775
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 3: public golfer. And you know, I grew up playing golf

776
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 3: as a public guy, and like I said, looping, and

777
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: I thought, wouldn't it be cool if we had a

778
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 3: seth Rainer style golf course for the public golfer who

779
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,919
Speaker 3: will never get invited to Chicago Golf Club, will never

780
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:28,240
Speaker 3: see Shore Acres, would never see Camargo or Blue Mound

781
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 3: or something like that. I have no idea what that is.

782
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 3: Wouldn't it be a cool and I don't really mean

783
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 3: to sound pompous, but wouldn't be a cool gift to

784
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 3: give the public golfer that style of architecture, and so

785
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 3: we just kind of started down the road quietly. And

786
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 3: it wasn't until very late in the design process that

787
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 3: Brett Barcell, who was a director golfer in a very

788
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 3: sharp fella, looked at me and said, you know, the

789
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 3: sixteenth toal seems an awful lot like a beer itz.

790
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 3: I think we're laying it out. It was being staked,

791
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 3: or maybe it was even shaped at that point, but

792
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 3: I think it was after construction had started, but I

793
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 3: could be wrong. And I said, you know, Brett, it

794
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 3: is and of course, being a modern golf professional, and

795
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 3: he understood the marketing value of it, that they are

796
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 3: the guys who have a publicly accessible rainer slash McDonald's

797
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 3: more rainer obviously, and he said, this is great. So

798
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 3: this really is a reverse for Dan and this really

799
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 3: is the road hole? Uh? And I said yep, and yep,

800
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 3: and this is the Eden and this is a double

801
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 3: punch bowl and anyway, so it went on and on,

802
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 3: and there's one variation in there and that you know,

803
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 3: the astute listeners and architectural geeks will pick, and that's

804
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 3: the ninth hole, which is more of a tenth of Riviera.

805
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 3: But at two hundred, and I guess it goes three

806
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 3: or five from all the way back. There's a lot

807
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 3: going on in the Green complex, but that's kind of

808
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 3: the only one that's not a double plateau or kind

809
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 3: of one of the archetype Ross or later McDonald.

810
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: What which of the templates did you have kind of

811
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: the most fun building?

812
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 4: You know?

813
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 2: What?

814
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: What you know, if you had to say, or what

815
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: is your favorite one?

816
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 3: You know?

817
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: If you if you love them all the same, that's fine.

818
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I I love the ninth hole. Partially, we made

819
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 3: a couple of clay models. I have some pictures, but whatever,

820
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 3: I don't think they have survived. But I thought, you know,

821
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 3: we're doing really old school golf course here. So unfortunately

822
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 3: or fortunately either way, it worked out. We had a

823
00:52:54,600 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 3: great contractor in Quadsworth Golf Construction. They did and just

824
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 3: a spectacular shaper.

825
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: And.

826
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 3: So I thought, well, maybe, aside from the fact that

827
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 3: we had to bid, had to create a whole bunch

828
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 3: of very detailed bid documents so that it was open

829
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 3: for public bidding, maybe we should use some old school

830
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,399
Speaker 3: design methods. And so I started sketching a little bit,

831
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 3: which I, you know, do from time to time. And

832
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 3: I thought, well, I've seen the plastic sine models that

833
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 3: some of these guys used to create, and it was

834
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 3: so much fun. And the one I stuck on was nine,

835
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 3: and it's not really the the driveable Riviera tenth, but

836
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 3: it's of that flavor. It's kind of a combination of

837
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 3: Riviera at ten and a couple other holes. The sixth

838
00:53:55,480 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 3: green from Piping Rock, but that's a wonderful hole. I

839
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: love the punch bowl, the completely new a Labith hole

840
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:05,959
Speaker 3: is the one really big boy hole on the back.

841
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 3: Nine kind of looks like the Edward Monk screaming face

842
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 3: as you stand at it from the fairway. And I

843
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 3: love the double punch bowl on thirteen, which is it's

844
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 3: not a great punchbowl in the front, but it's not

845
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 3: a deep one, but you know, you get that flavor.

846
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 3: Fifteen is fifteen turned out to be a pretty good hole.

847
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 3: But we're kind of handstrung by the drains considerations and

848
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 3: some of the permitting issues in Cook County and webs

849
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 3: anywhere in the metro area. There's a whole bunch of

850
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 3: water that we have to take down from the west

851
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 3: of the property, and so we might have liked to

852
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 3: do a little bit something different in front of the

853
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 3: green there, but it's a fun little part. Five, sixteen,

854
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 3: seventeen a fabulous sixteens maybe a little bit too difficult.

855
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 3: Seventeen maybe a little bit easy, but it's a nice balance.

856
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 3: And then eighteen is a very very soft Alps hole,

857
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 3: which not a lot of folks pick up on. We

858
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 3: hid the front right part of the green with a

859
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 3: mound right in front of a bunker, which, of course

860
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 3: is a modern no no to intentionally hide a bunker,

861
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 3: but you know, that school of architecture is anything but modern.

862
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 3: And so while I would have loved to do a

863
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 3: full on Alps with a twelve foot high or fifteen

864
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:41,280
Speaker 3: foot high mound in front of green, it's public golf

865
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 3: and you can't. You know, I would have felt really

866
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 3: scared about intentionally hiding people from view and the dangers

867
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 3: that come with that. So we did kind of a

868
00:55:54,160 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 3: soft three to two kind of Alps team. But I

869
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 3: don't know what a favorite it is. There's there's some

870
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 3: really really good ones out here, though, and I'm awful

871
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 3: proud of that work.

872
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's for everybody that's either Chicago based

873
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: or if you're coming to Chicago. I always recommend if

874
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,479
Speaker 1: you're if you're looking for some public places to play.

875
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: You know, two of my favorites are happened to be Ravslow,

876
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 1: which Dave Redd all the bunkering on. And then Mount

877
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,439
Speaker 1: Prospects like a super cool public course. I think it's

878
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: like thirty I think I paid thirty five bucks to

879
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 1: play it last fall. I walked it, you know, three

880
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: three and a half hours with and uh, you know

881
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 1: it's a it's just you know, template golf for the public,

882
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:43,240
Speaker 1: which is super cool.

883
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 2: So your your big new project that you're working.

884
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 1: On is Pacific Gales and uh, it's a coastal. You've

885
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: got Oregon coast and you know, pretty close in proximity

886
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: to Abandon. And I know it's been kind of of

887
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 1: like a long journey to get to the point now

888
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: where you've got permit, you've got permitting done, and you're

889
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: getting close to breaking breaking ground. So tell us a

890
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: little bit about Pacific Gales.

891
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 3: Pacific Gals is it's been for me, it's probably been

892
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 3: twenty one or two years now. My partner Jim Haley,

893
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 3: who physically shaped the first golf course at the Dune's

894
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 3: and was fortunate enough to work for Charles Schwab and

895
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 3: George Roberts and the Huntsman family, and he worked for

896
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 3: Pete Dye for a while. He worked for Rhys Jones

897
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 3: for a while, but it was fortunate enough to overcome

898
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 3: that I'm just teasing. He learned a lawful lot there, obviously.

899
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 3: But Jim and I became partners formally about a decade

900
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 3: or so ago on Pacific Gales, and it's one of

901
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 3: those projects where, for example, I was, along with lots

902
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 3: of other guys, I was interviewed and walked around Bandon

903
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 3: Dunes before it was Bannon Dune's Mike and I and

904
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 3: the aforementioned Bob Spence. Bob and I were going to

905
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 3: be a design team along with I think everybody in

906
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 3: the business probably was interviewed and walked the property, so

907
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 3: it's not as if we were special by any stretch.

908
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 3: But I remember thinking to myself, for I should just

909
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 3: sleep on Mikes stares in order to be involved in

910
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 3: this project. But it turns out that that Jim Haley

911
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 3: hired a fellow named Jeff Knapp, and it turns out

912
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 3: they became good friends and still are, and we all are,

913
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 3: and Jeff's family has a couple of ranches on the

914
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 3: Oregon coast very similar to the property at Bandon Done,

915
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 3: and after much effort and considerable expenditure, we've gotten to

916
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 3: the point where we have a of I don't want

917
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 3: to used too much hyperbole, but its golf course on

918
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 3: the Pacific coast. When we're done, it's it's very very good,

919
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 3: and anybody who's seen the pictures looks at it and thinks, wow,

920
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 3: I want to be part of that, and anybody who's

921
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 3: on site. We've had a lot of very smart people

922
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 3: on site, and there have been some really heavy hitters

923
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 3: who tried to acquire the property along the way. But

924
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 3: my partner Jim has a great relationship with family and

925
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 3: that's how that's why we're involved. We've gotten to the

926
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 3: point where for folks who love golf and understand that

927
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 3: this may be once in a generation opportunity to be

928
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 3: involved in golf, that is maybe as good as anything

929
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 3: on this planet. And I jin's been around the block,

930
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 3: and I'm not a complete rookie, but it's very very good.

931
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 3: I've had guys tell me, boy, if I could have

932
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 3: been involved in Bandon, dudes like I could become a

933
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 3: founder at Pacific Gales and you think back twenty five

934
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 3: years ago for folks who might have had the opportunity

935
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 3: to be involved in Bandon Duds, and obviously nobody was.

936
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 3: It was Mike, Mike's baby. But we have a founder's

937
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 3: club at Bandon Dunes that allows folks to you know,

938
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 3: have one hundred years of free golf for the family

939
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 3: and the likes, to be part of our development team

940
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 3: and maybe get to be part of one of the

941
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 3: best golf courses on the planet. The physical characteristics of

942
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,439
Speaker 3: the site are very similar to the first golf course

943
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 3: at Bandon Dune's, except we have quite a bit more

944
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 3: topography and we have a massive dune, not unlike Tom

945
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 3: Doak's golf course there on the north end. That is

946
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 3: it makes the place very very special. So we've been

947
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 3: working at it and spending our own money, kind of

948
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 3: putting our money where our mouth is for about the

949
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 3: last seven years, maybe it's six years, gaining permits and

950
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 3: setting this place up for a build which I think

951
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 3: will probably start or possibly start Christmas or New Year's

952
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 3: about And that's just the first golf course. There may

953
01:01:55,360 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 3: or may not be a second golf course, but it's

954
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 3: the opportunity to be involved in something a special. Frankly,

955
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 3: it doesn't come along that often unless you happen to

956
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 3: be Bill Core or Ben Crenshaw or Tom Doak or

957
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 3: maybe Ki Hands. But this may be better than anything

958
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 3: they've ever had to look at. So Jim and I

959
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 3: made a determination that we're going to go all in,

960
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 3: and we are and we're very close to getting in

961
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 3: to the finish line and are trying to make people

962
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 3: aware of the opportunity that they have to jump in

963
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 3: our boat and be part of something that's not only

964
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 3: really special, but if you've ever been involved in a build,

965
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 3: and our guys will have full access to the site

966
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 3: like nobody else will besides the media. It's a lot

967
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 3: of fun. It's a lot of fun to be on

968
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 3: the ground when these things are getting created, and they

969
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 3: just don't come along very often, particularly in this economic environment.

970
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 2: So so have you guys. We've gotten like a routing

971
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 2: done and everything for it.

972
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 3: Earth we do we do and the routing, the routing

973
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 3: along the ocean and along the north side of the

974
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 3: property which overlooks the Elk River, which is just incredible

975
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 3: fly fishing, overlooks the Cape Block of lighthouse and the

976
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 3: port Orford reef. We've got nine and eighteen which finished

977
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 3: on the ocean. We've got seventeen and number eight which

978
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 3: are also sitting on the ocean. We've got six to

979
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 3: eight holes on the ocean or with immediate views of

980
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 3: the ocean. It was an awful lot of routing iterations,

981
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 3: like you said earlier, walking the golf, walking in the property,

982
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 3: trying to figure out a comfortable walk with or without clubs.

983
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 3: And that's kind of where we landed at Blacksheet. Is

984
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 3: a comfortable walk whether you have clubs or don't have clubs.

985
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 3: And obviously the end purposes is to play golf over

986
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 3: the ground, but I felt it was really important to

987
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 3: add a little drama in terms of sequencing of the

988
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 3: golf holes. You know, as much as ten years ago,

989
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 3: I think I talked to Brad Klein over a cocktailer too,

990
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 3: and he had just been to Spyglass and we were

991
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 3: talking about the gross effect of the routing of Spyglass

992
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 3: versus the experiential effect. And I mean gross is overall

993
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 3: that grotesque. The experiential effect of playing a tubble where

994
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 3: you get to the ocean, you move away from the ocean,

995
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 3: you get back to the ocean with a peak, you

996
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 3: move away from the ocean. Then at Pebble you're fortunate

997
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 3: enough to finish. So what we tried to do and

998
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 3: I think have done very successfully in the routing is

999
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 3: give you the big bang and the first t So

1000
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 3: you're standing on top of the dune looking at the ocean,

1001
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 3: over looking at ninth and the eighteenth green. You know,

1002
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 3: we may kind of have that same intimatesical space created.

1003
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 3: I don't know if you ever played it crowded by

1004
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 3: the clubhouse. I want you crowded by the dune and

1005
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 3: the ocean as much as that's possible, a kind of

1006
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 3: by a negative space that is the ocean. And then

1007
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 3: the first green plays out to a promontory with a skyline,

1008
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 3: you know, infinity green. And then to move away from

1009
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 3: the ocean and get some views of Humbug Mountain and

1010
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 3: the coastal range. And then you come back into some

1011
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 3: quieter away from the ocean space and into some wetland

1012
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 3: areas that are just stunning. And then we line the

1013
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 3: up with the Portford Lighthouse. You get back to the ocean,

1014
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 3: fool around with the dunes, and we're it's a good

1015
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 3: enough site that we're able to finish both nines on

1016
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 3: the ocean play a couple of holes on top of

1017
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 3: sixty sixty five foot high dunes right overlooking the ocean.

1018
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 3: And so I'm not one hundred percent sure that we've

1019
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 3: got that we've squeezed every ounce of joy and drama

1020
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 3: out of the routing, but it's really really good and

1021
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 3: somewhat three theatrical, and people are absolutely just going to

1022
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 3: love the experience. And we were able to put the

1023
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 3: clubhouse on the ocean so you can hang out and

1024
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 3: have a cocktail of your choice, and we felt that

1025
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 3: was really important to differentiate ourselves from Bandon, and obviously

1026
01:06:53,840 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 3: Abandons the yardstick by which any resort is measured alone

1027
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 3: a resort that's within twenty miles of band in which

1028
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 3: we will be. We're only twenty five minute drive away,

1029
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 3: so there's going to be obvious comparisons, and we know that.

1030
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 3: So we made the determination that we need to be

1031
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 3: a little different than they are. The business plan is

1032
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 3: a little different. We want to be smaller and quieter.

1033
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 3: We won't ever have as much golf as they do,

1034
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 3: but style wise, we need this golf course to be

1035
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 3: a little different and routing. As much as I love

1036
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 3: the decision that Mike May did not put the clubhouse

1037
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 3: on the ocean, we think that's an important part of

1038
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 3: creating our own space and creating our own unique character

1039
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 3: at Pacific Gales.

1040
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 2: Yes, it's cool. I mean it's a tricky.

1041
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 1: It's always a conundrum with you know, the clubhouse. And

1042
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 1: you know, I think as somebody who's an entrepreneur, I

1043
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:00,120
Speaker 1: appreciate that you're creating your own.

1044
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 2: Unique path and and your own unique place.

1045
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 1: That's that's different and meant to compliment Bandon rather than

1046
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 1: you know, being you know, you know the same, you know,

1047
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,800
Speaker 1: And I think that's something a lot of people appreciate,

1048
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: and clearly you do.

1049
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 3: I mean, you're you're doing the same thing. You're you're

1050
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:22,519
Speaker 3: creating a product content creation that is is unique and

1051
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:28,759
Speaker 3: you know, not beholden to advertisers, and you know, people

1052
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 3: can trust your opinions and facts that you're not shilling

1053
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 3: for anybody else. And uh, yes, as an entrepreneur, and

1054
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 3: we we definitely wanted to be unique to band Who.

1055
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 3: We didn't want to be perceived as the seventh golf

1056
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 3: course over there, as wonderful as that would be we

1057
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 3: need to take a different path to be successful and

1058
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 3: attract people in our own right rather than just relying

1059
01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 3: on them spilling over from band And we're very confident

1060
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,759
Speaker 3: that people will want to come see us and stay

1061
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 3: with us and then also go see Banded. I know

1062
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,680
Speaker 3: that's a that's a pretty bold statement to make, but

1063
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,520
Speaker 3: you know the team we've got between Troy Russell, who

1064
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,960
Speaker 3: was abandoned for the construction of for the first Boor

1065
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 3: golf courses, Jim obviously was there very early on, and

1066
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 3: like I said, I'm not a total beginner, but those

1067
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:26,679
Speaker 3: guys have an awful lot more experience in that environment

1068
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 3: than I do. But we're just ridiculously thrilled to have

1069
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 3: fought through all of the obstacles that were placed in

1070
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 3: LA and gotten to the point where we're able to

1071
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 3: welcome folks into our founders Club, which is which is

1072
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 3: kind of interesting. You know. Jim and I talked about

1073
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 3: it ten years ago when he was working in London,

1074
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 3: and he said, no, we need to be able to

1075
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:55,439
Speaker 3: do something. He called it the European model, which was

1076
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 3: just kind of a placeholder name, but it got us

1077
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 3: both thinking about, you know, a private club within a

1078
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 3: public operations model, and you know, kind of the UK

1079
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:13,280
Speaker 3: model where there are clubs that you different clubs that

1080
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 3: use the same real estate. And it turns out Mike

1081
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 3: Keiser beat us to the punch. He used the same

1082
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:26,440
Speaker 3: model up and Valley to populate his Founder's Club. And historically,

1083
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 3: you know, I just talked about spy Glass Hill, but

1084
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 3: spy Glass Hill, the great Samuel Morse used kind of

1085
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 3: a founder's club to fund his construction. It worked out

1086
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:44,000
Speaker 3: pretty well for them. They had his two hundred guys

1087
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 3: had I think fifty years of the first five or

1088
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 3: sixty times every day is what they gave away. And

1089
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 3: that round it. And I think or somebody called that

1090
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 3: like the best deal in golf. And while you know,

1091
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:03,800
Speaker 3: our Pacific El's Founder Club, it offers an awful lot

1092
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 3: more value value than they did at as spy Glass Sell.

1093
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 3: I'm not sure we're the best dealing golf, but I'm

1094
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 3: not sure that we're not the best deal in golf.

1095
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 3: It's historically people are going to look back at this

1096
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 3: once the doors are shut and once we've reached our thresholds.

1097
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 3: You know, geez, I can't believe I didn't get involved

1098
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 3: in that. I'm not going to say it's like Apple

1099
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 3: when it was you know, selling at twelve or Microsoft,

1100
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 3: because you know, the profit motive is not there. But

1101
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 3: to be involved in something the special is is rare. Indeed,

1102
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 3: you know once in a generation or two even you know,

1103
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 3: who knows whether we're going to do the last Yell

1104
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 3: on the Pacific Coast for you know, maybe ever the

1105
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,919
Speaker 3: it's very very difficult these things permitted.

1106
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that.

1107
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:57,639
Speaker 1: I think the side of architecture that that often goes

1108
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: overlooked as just the whole permitting and just like you

1109
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 1: said at the beginning, of the constraints that that each

1110
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 1: project has, and I know, you know Oregon has become

1111
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:13,600
Speaker 1: very very difficult and protective of their coast, you know,

1112
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:16,680
Speaker 1: in the recent years. So we're gonna we're gonna get

1113
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 1: you out of here with our over under overrated, underrated tradition.

1114
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 1: So we're going to fire a couple overrated, underrated and uh,

1115
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: anybody that's interested in Pacific Gales, I'll throw a link

1116
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 1: in the podcast on the page for the website and

1117
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 1: I think all the infos on there.

1118
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 3: I'm ass commerce. Yeah, I'm a seamless commerce of the Friday.

1119
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 3: Having just talked about your uh and editorial integrity. Then

1120
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 3: we then we just throw an egg on your face

1121
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 3: with that.

1122
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, but no, you's we're in a cool

1123
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,720
Speaker 1: golf course project. I'm gonna go out to Portland for

1124
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 1: a bachelor party, and I'm gonna see if I can

1125
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 1: uh sneak down to Abandon for a couple of days

1126
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 1: when I'm out there and also check out, uh the land.

1127
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 1: You know, I'll just be the guy strolling around a

1128
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 1: big plot of land, you know, looking looking out into the.

1129
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:27,640
Speaker 3: Vistas exactly trying to visualize dolf. Uh yeah, all right,

1130
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 3: over and under all.

1131
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:33,280
Speaker 1: Right, so, uh, we're gonna go with this week's uh,

1132
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 1: this week's golf course. You're a Columba, you know. I

1133
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:39,600
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in Columbus. Mirfield Village overrated

1134
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:40,520
Speaker 1: or underrated.

1135
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 3: I gotta see it's overrated. The gotta see it's overrated.

1136
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, Deck, It's this spectacular place, but it kind

1137
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 3: of helped solidify the trend of more is more, and

1138
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 3: in fact, I'm not sure more is always more.

1139
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:07,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's the the architecture

1140
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:11,439
Speaker 1: crowd generally feels that way. And then you know on

1141
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:14,679
Speaker 1: the flip side than on architecture crowd. You know, it's

1142
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 1: the greatest place in the world. I haven't been both

1143
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:22,240
Speaker 1: kind of is both honestly, Yeah, it's an experience, right

1144
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 1: it is.

1145
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. The first time we played there with the team,

1146
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 3: I was almost afraid to take a tibbot. It was

1147
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 3: so well maintained, so much better maintained than anything I'd

1148
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 3: ever seen, you know, even here at some of the

1149
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 3: very high budget places in Chicago. It was I was,

1150
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 3: I was. I literally had the feeling that I should

1151
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 3: maybe should not take a dibbot. Yeah, it's uh, I

1152
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:47,720
Speaker 3: spelled it around in eighty two.

1153
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:51,600
Speaker 1: That's why I probably would shoot way worse than that.

1154
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:55,800
Speaker 1: What about Jordan Spieth.

1155
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 3: Oh boy, not a lot of guys who've had the

1156
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 3: success a long term. I would not. I would short

1157
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 3: that stock, let's put it that way. I think if

1158
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:14,800
Speaker 3: I was his agent, I would also mike him. I

1159
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 3: don't think he does himself a lot of credit by

1160
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 3: having an open mic near him on the golf course.

1161
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:22,400
Speaker 3: You know, the at and Ts and Toka colas. The

1162
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 3: world don't need to hear him whining. But that's more

1163
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:30,639
Speaker 3: corporate than anything. I just somebody. I said that to somebody,

1164
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:35,439
Speaker 3: and he's clearly an enormous talent. But I unless he's

1165
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:37,800
Speaker 3: putting really, really well, I'm not sure he has the

1166
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:42,439
Speaker 3: horsepower to be that good over the course of a

1167
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:46,639
Speaker 3: couple of decades. But of course, you know, he'll probably

1168
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:49,560
Speaker 3: win fifteen of him and and prove me wrong, and

1169
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:51,479
Speaker 3: I hope he does. It would be fun to watch.

1170
01:15:51,960 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very conflicted. I think I appreciate I just

1171
01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 1: like his ability to get the ball in the hole.

1172
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:06,799
Speaker 1: I think that's like an underappreciated aspect of golf.

1173
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 4: Is like the game around the greens.

1174
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:14,640
Speaker 3: But by the way, that's the only thing that matters.

1175
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 3: Last I looked, because nobody gives you a check for hitting

1176
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:20,439
Speaker 3: it pure and not getting it up and down or

1177
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:23,040
Speaker 3: you know, stripe it on the range. My son and

1178
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 3: I were talking about that that's the only skill for

1179
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 3: which they pay you on the PGA tour is well

1180
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 3: shooting left everybody else.

1181
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:34,679
Speaker 1: I think they you get paid you rate it. You're

1182
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 1: you're an underachiever because you'll you'll make a ton of cuts,

1183
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:40,759
Speaker 1: you'll have a lot of high finishes, but you won't

1184
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:42,760
Speaker 1: have a lot of wins. If you can't get the

1185
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:46,320
Speaker 1: ball in the hole, you know, because like there's a

1186
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:48,559
Speaker 1: slew of guys that hit the ball so good and

1187
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:50,640
Speaker 1: you're always like, why don't they win more? Well, it's like,

1188
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:54,519
Speaker 1: well they can't, they can't chip, they can't. But I

1189
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:56,800
Speaker 1: mean they still are really good at it. I mean

1190
01:16:56,840 --> 01:17:00,680
Speaker 1: they're there, but they aren't as good is you know,

1191
01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:07,599
Speaker 1: the elite. So next one, center line bunkers, like.

1192
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 3: I don't think they've gotten to the point of ubiquity

1193
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:17,640
Speaker 3: and you know, over use. But maybe I haven't been

1194
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 3: getting out as much as I used to. Generally underrated,

1195
01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 3: but another couple of years of them, maybe all right,

1196
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:32,920
Speaker 3: let's let's move on. But we've done them where I've

1197
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:35,080
Speaker 3: literally left the bunker in place. We didn't one out

1198
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:39,559
Speaker 3: of sixteenth twelve, for example, at belv Billmore, left a

1199
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:42,839
Speaker 3: bunker in place and added, took out, took out some trees,

1200
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:47,280
Speaker 3: added fairway about twenty five yards of faaraway new fairway

1201
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:52,720
Speaker 3: that didn't exist before. And you were criticized by you know,

1202
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 3: a member or two for placing the bunker in the

1203
01:17:56,280 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 3: middle of the fairway, when in fact, oh we really

1204
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:03,680
Speaker 3: did was add new fairly opposite and so that's a

1205
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 3: hard that's a hard one for folks to get their

1206
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:11,560
Speaker 3: head around, not unlike mounds within a bunker. Mm hm,

1207
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:16,040
Speaker 3: oh that's unfair. Well, you know, if it's a long

1208
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 3: finger in the bunker, it's perfectly fine to some folks.

1209
01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:25,160
Speaker 3: But yeah, I in the right situation you have with

1210
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:28,400
Speaker 3: particularly on a second shot in the par five, which

1211
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 3: I think is probably the most ignored shot in architecture,

1212
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,599
Speaker 3: I think they can be used really, really effectively in

1213
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 3: that scenario.

1214
01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:42,719
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1215
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 1: I like a big fan of center line bunkers. I

1216
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:49,880
Speaker 1: just think they put people in like a conundrum, and

1217
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:52,639
Speaker 1: anytime you put people in conundrums, it's great.

1218
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:55,280
Speaker 3: You know, it's a good thing. Yeah.

1219
01:18:56,360 --> 01:19:00,679
Speaker 2: Uh, Skokie Country Club. I played this place yesterday, and.

1220
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 1: You know, not not on many I don't think it's

1221
01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 1: on any top one hundred list. Just curious where where

1222
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 1: you think it falls, whether it's overrated, underrated.

1223
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:18,680
Speaker 3: Probably underrated. I think it might have been on one

1224
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:24,479
Speaker 3: of the Golf Digest lists many years ago, just because

1225
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:26,920
Speaker 3: I was one of those guys many many many years ago.

1226
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:33,160
Speaker 3: But it's Uh, it's a very very strong golf course

1227
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 3: and I like it a lot. Don crossed the superintendent

1228
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:41,920
Speaker 3: there is is just a world class guy and professional

1229
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 3: as well. He's very good at his craft.

1230
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:45,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was.

1231
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:48,200
Speaker 1: I hadn't played in a number of years in it,

1232
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:50,760
Speaker 1: you know, I always said it was in my like

1233
01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:54,200
Speaker 1: top five in Chicago, and it reaffirmed itself.

1234
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:55,639
Speaker 4: I think it's so good.

1235
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 2: It's it's it's just such a fun place to play.

1236
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:01,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a lot of variety in the holes,

1237
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:04,839
Speaker 1: and you know, you rarely play the same part twice

1238
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 1: in a row.

1239
01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:10,479
Speaker 2: Curious, curious what your.

1240
01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 1: Top five in Chicago would be if you had to,

1241
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:16,760
Speaker 1: if you had to make a list, be out here

1242
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 1: on a heater.

1243
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:27,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously it's black sheep. Uh Yeah, Shore Golf Club

1244
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 3: and short Akers are easy ones to include on that list.

1245
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 3: The one that nobody will ever get to see, and

1246
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:36,800
Speaker 3: I'm obviously a homer in this case, is like you

1247
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 3: have a country club, very much a period piece, probably

1248
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:46,960
Speaker 3: more foul less now than when fouls designed it. H

1249
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 3: If you can't get there, and almost nobody can, it's

1250
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:57,639
Speaker 3: definitely worth a couple hours of Google Earth, just kind

1251
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:00,400
Speaker 3: of drooling over some of the little feature that have

1252
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:07,320
Speaker 3: been created in the square corners and the greens and uh, boy,

1253
01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:10,559
Speaker 3: what is that five or is that four? That was low?

1254
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 3: Is wonderful, but that's not fair. So I don't know.

1255
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:28,599
Speaker 3: I I love, I loved, I loved Glenn Club. That's

1256
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 3: that's a pretty good one too. And like I said,

1257
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:34,639
Speaker 3: it's a that's a great space. I'm sure I'm choking

1258
01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 3: my guts out, but I I'm drawing a blank beyond that.

1259
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:43,719
Speaker 1: Hey, you know, it's uh, it's there's there's so many

1260
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:47,320
Speaker 1: good courses out here. Yeah, it's and like you said,

1261
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:50,719
Speaker 1: I think outside of you know, once you get short

1262
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:54,720
Speaker 1: akers and Chicago golf, it's almost like all from their

1263
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:56,719
Speaker 1: personal taste.

1264
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:00,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. The other one I really loved its under

1265
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:07,000
Speaker 3: the category of an incredible walk is Bigfoot. The physical

1266
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 3: prop Yeah, the physical proper there and again we consult there.

1267
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:12,400
Speaker 3: So it's cheating.

1268
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 1: But hey, you're you're a company man, you know, I.

1269
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 4: Respect I am.

1270
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:21,439
Speaker 3: I'm exactly you know, Uh, whether you had golf clubs

1271
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:24,400
Speaker 3: in your hand or whether you were just chasing frogs,

1272
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:28,640
Speaker 3: it is a great place to spend time. I mean,

1273
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:32,280
Speaker 3: there's a class one trout streams and springs that bubble

1274
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:35,639
Speaker 3: up by the ground, and it's it's it's it's kind

1275
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 3: of a magical place that just happens to have very

1276
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 3: good golf on it.

1277
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I haven't been out there since I played

1278
01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 1: like a US Junior qualifier out there, I mean as

1279
01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:54,720
Speaker 1: decades ago. But I something I that's like Geneva is

1280
01:22:54,760 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 1: a cool place to get to spend some time and being.

1281
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 3: Just not a just not a weekend it down on weekend.

1282
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 1: Being somebody that's spent hours drooling over like Geneva Country

1283
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:07,240
Speaker 1: Club on Google Earth.

1284
01:23:07,280 --> 01:23:09,760
Speaker 2: It's definitely something that is worthwhile.

1285
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:12,439
Speaker 1: So and then you'll you'll just you know, spend the

1286
01:23:12,439 --> 01:23:14,080
Speaker 1: rest of your life trying to figure out how to.

1287
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:14,639
Speaker 2: Get out there.

1288
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:16,360
Speaker 3: So out there.

1289
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:19,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, So well, Dave.

1290
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:23,160
Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming on, and we'll do another one of.

1291
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:23,920
Speaker 2: These in the future.

1292
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:29,080
Speaker 1: I'm excited to keep tabs on the Pacific Gales project

1293
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:33,160
Speaker 1: that golf can never have enough you know, really really

1294
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 1: great sights, and everything I've heard from from you and

1295
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:40,600
Speaker 1: also some you know, non biased parties is that it

1296
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:43,360
Speaker 1: is it's got potential to be one of the.

1297
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:47,960
Speaker 3: Great It's really good. And I appreciate you doing the

1298
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 3: company plug there and I appreciate you staying awake for

1299
01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:54,880
Speaker 3: what it has been six hours while I'd drone on

1300
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:59,240
Speaker 3: about how wonderful all of my workings, But thanks for

1301
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 3: having me appreciate it for sure.

1302
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:06,160
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate your time and we'll talk soon, all.

1303
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:07,479
Speaker 3: Right, look forward to it. Thanks,