WEBVTT - How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:11.720 Ready to go. All right, agree to you one Happy Thursday, 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:16.079 Happy may Day. It is what this really is. It's 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:19.200 the one month anniversary of the Chuck podcast. So you 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.720 know when you in content creator years one month, that's 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:26.319 the equivalent of five years of service these days, I 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.960 have kid, but I'm having a blast. I hope you're 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.520 enjoying the content we're creating. I'm an amazing team around 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:36.599 me that has been able to get me into some 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:40.280 social spaces that I had not been to before, including 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.360 my new and growing audience on YouTube like and subscribe. 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:44.400 Do I say that enough? 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:44.760 So? 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:49.760 I appreciate that Apple podcasts Spotify. By the way, I 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.200 tweeted out, we know some of you who get Apple 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.320 or you know, we're fixing that and feed issue and 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:58.560 that's that should be. That should be up and running 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:03.040 without any problems, without you having to manually refresh very soon. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:07.200 But before I get to my guest, and I tell 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:09.479 you this is going to be a fantastic interview, You're 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:11.760 going to love it. It's Charlie Brooker. He is the 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:17.720 creator of Black Mirror, the amazing Netflix series that's sort 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:22.080 of you know, near term, the futuristic. Some people think 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:27.400 it's all dystopian. What's interesting is, I will tell you this, 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.479 I had a lot of thoughts of what I thought 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.880 motivated Charlie Brooker on various shows. I bet you, as 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.720 Black Mirror fans, you will assume some things that you 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:45.840 will find out are not true. What motivated him, what 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.240 were his what were his creative mentors? If you will, 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.880 both individuals and of different movies and shows. Just trust me, 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.360 you're going to love this interview. You're going to love him, 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:00.480 and you're going to learn a lot about what it 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.880 takes to create Black Mirror. In the mind of Charlie Brooker, 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:09.239 it is just I am. I would have him on 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.560 weekly if he had the time to do it, and 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.400 there's no doubt, as you'll find out in this interview, 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:16.480 this dude would be a lot of fun to be 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.760 in a writer's room with, that's for sure. But before 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.119 I get to there, I spent a lot of time 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.519 this week talking about the first hundred days of Donald Trump. 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:27.840 But there is an opposition party that's out there, and 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.120 I thought it would be worth doing the first hundred 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:34.320 days report card, if you will, for the Democrats, because 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.440 as bad as things have gone for Donald Trump, this 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.800 has not been a seesaw as Trump goes down, Democrats 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.320 go up. That has not been the case. In fact, 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.520 the hallmark of all of the polling you've seen is, 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.960 even as Donald Trump's going down, the brand of the 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.720 Democratic Party has yet to improve in the minds of voters. 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.880 And arguably that's a pretty honest assessment. Right what have 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.000 the Democrats had done to improve their brand? They really 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.760 haven't done anything yet. If anything, they're still trying to 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.799 figure it out. It isn't clear where this party is headed. 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:09.040 What is universally clear, though, is that the DC leadership 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.160 of the Democratic Party is not very popular at all. 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.560 Whether it's aking Jeffries Chuck Schumer, they're feeling some pressure. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:20.120 I've talked to some donors who are very frustrated with Jeffries. 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:24.359 Don't understand why Nancy Pelosi is still sort of lingering 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.919 over the leadership of the House as much. I had 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:31.720 one prominent donor say to me over the weekend, I'm 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.720 glad Nancy Pelosi was there to do what was needed 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:39.880 to be done with Joe Biden's candidacy, but her shadow 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.240 over the party is only hurting Jeffries in the long run, 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.640 and is only hurting the party's brand in the long run. 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.800 If the party is going to try to gear itself 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:51.160 to the future, it's leadership of the previous twenty years 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:57.520 probably needs to step aside completely so that you certainly 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.880 hear that. Obviously, Chuck Schumer has been feeling the heat. 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.120 He's probably getting more of the arrows than most, considering 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.800 he had to make a tough decision, which was whether 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:14.760 to shut down the government or sort of let Donald 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:19.520 Trump have a situation that wasn't going to be popular 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.240 with the base of his party. I do think politically 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.080 he made the right call. He just communicated the idea 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.400 extraordinarily poorly, since he spent one day talking up the 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:33.640 idea of orchestrating a shutdown and then immediately backtracking on 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.960 that front. But his political calculus about what the right 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:38.680 call was I think has turned out to be right, 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.760 which is, don't get in Donald Trump's way if he's 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.000 in the middle of hurting himself politically. That's been the 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.680 James Carvel strategy. So I would say, if you were 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.680 going to give grades, the DC leadership is not getting 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.080 good grades. I don't think they're getting passing grades yet. 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.680 Now the question is who individually has had a good 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.560 first hundred days in the Democratic Party. Well, probably the 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.440 best way to judge that as you look at it 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.360 through the prism of future elections and the prism of 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:14.520 trying to position yourself as a leader or a player 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.159 at the table, trying to figure out what is the 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.520 Democratic Party going to look like, what is the Democratic 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:23.000 brand going to be? So immediately when you look at 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.320 people who have made an early effort to make an impression, 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.880 Corey Booker, he certainly has decided to take matters more 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.240 into his own hands. He did the twenty five hour Philipbuster, 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.760 which got a reasonable amount of tension. In fact when 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.279 he timed it. If you recall, I thought it was 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.880 fascinating when he timed it. He timed it during the 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.799 election and day of that first special election in April, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.960 which had the Wisconsin election and those two specials in Florida. 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.360 So it was sort of feeding the Democratic base as 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.920 they were getting excited about winning some of these special elections, 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.599 over performing in some of these special elections, and here 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.600 he was jacking the DC message machine for a day, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.960 so I think, and over the weekend, Corey Booker and 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.880 Akim Jefferies did a live stream from the Capitol steps. 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.039 So I think Booker is trying to become one of, 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:17.039 you know, trying to find his voices as a Trump resistor, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.479 another sort of DC insider that's trying that same thing 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.240 as Chris Murphy, the Democratic Senator from Connecticut. He's been 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.159 trying to get on more socials, trying to sort of 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:34.120 also become more of an outside voice in pushing the party, 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.719 and you know, clearly is probably somebody at least thinking 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.760 about running for president. I think Corey Booker fair to 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.479 say that he's thinking about running for president other Democrats 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.240 in the first hundred days. So I think for the 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.280 most part, both Corey Booker and Chris Murphy, as far 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.200 as their own standing, I've made progress. And what they're 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:55.960 where they're trying to get to. I don't know if 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.040 they're the right answer. We're going to find out. Right. 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.160 Corey Booker was not could not get traction when he 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.840 ran for president in twenty twenty. Maybe that'll change this time. 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:06.719 But some of the efforts he's making, you can see 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.480 what he's doing, and it makes sense. Chris Murphy same thing, 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:12.960 gets a little less attention than Corey Booker, but you 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.080 see what he's trying to do. It may be just 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.680 the Washington baggage. You know, I'm convinced that the Democratic 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.200 primary electorate come twenty twenty seven to twenty twenty eight 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:26.040 is just going to care about two things new and electable. Now, 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.160 electable is going to be a debate, right, everybody has 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.960 a different version of who's electable and what's electable. But new, 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:33.880 I think it's going to be a big deal. Right 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.640 on the other first hundred days, Bernie Sanders and AOC obviously, 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.600 I think Alexandria Cassio Cortez has probably had a for 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.720 her personal politics, a very strong first one hundred days. Right, 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.720 She's already in line. There's no question anymore of who's 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.440 the heir apparent to the Bernie movement. It is her. 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.040 It is not going to be Rocanna, It is not 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:56.920 going to be anybody else. It is going to be her. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.240 It is hers, unless somehow she decides not to run 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.560 for president. Now she's got two options sitting in front 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:04.640 of her in twenty twenty eight. If she chooses not 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:06.960 to run for president, she could run for a Chuck 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:09.480 Schumer Senate seat. I'd be as I told you in 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.400 a previous during the Dan Goldman preview there when I 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.800 said keep an eye on him for the future, I believe, 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.000 you know, I don't believe Schumer ends up running for 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.840 reelection by twenty twenty eight. Right, that just you sort 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:22.800 of see where you kind of see where that's going. 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.080 And I think he could be vulnerable in a primary 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.280 if he's not careful on twenty twenty eight. I don't 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.520 think that's the way he would want to go out. So, 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.960 you know, I don't know this, Nobody knows this. He's 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:36.640 certainly been a very successful New York politician. So I'm 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.160 not going to sit here and say that he should 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.360 know when the time to go is. But I would 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.760 be I certainly if I were a betting man, and 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.120 as many of you know, I do enjoy a FanDuel 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:52.960 a FanDuel app every now and then, I certainly would 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.200 be betting against him running for re election in twenty eight. 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.240 So the question is does she want to be a constant, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.439 long term player in DC or does she want to 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.920 go for it and seeing if she can win the nomination. 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.800 I'm skeptical she can win the nomination. I'm not sure. 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.720 I go back to electability, will she be able to 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:14.320 pass the electability test, which is again very subjective, but 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.160 I think the perception and there's going to be we'll 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.520 see what the evidence shows, but I think she starts 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.200 with a perception that she's going to have a hard 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:27.920 time winning in places like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. But 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.719 I'm going to just always be careful to under I'm 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.200 not going to undersell her. She is what I like 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.400 to describe as a very talented political athlete. And sometimes, 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:40.720 you know, you look at the NFL draft and you'll 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.439 see certain, oh, somebody's got his arms are too short, 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:45.560 or he doesn't have big enough hands and all this stuff, 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.440 but they're just so good at being a football player. 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:54.079 They overcome whatever physical trait that that that they should 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.920 have that they don't have. And so I feel the 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.480 same way about politicians is that you know, they can 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.719 be such a good campaigners. They can overcome maybe it's 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.959 a character flaw, maybe they overcome an ideological issue, whatever 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.760 it is. That you can overcome these things if you're 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:13.520 talented enough. So I'm hesitant to assume AOC can overcome 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.960 these things. I think she's proven to be a very talented, 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:21.520 talented politician, and I'm just watching her go from activist 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:26.080 to elected activist to start trying to have more say, 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.560 you know, both figuring out how to balance inside game 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.640 versus outside game. But overall, I think you could SAYOC 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.160 has had a very strong first hundred days because she 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.720 now is certainly the one getting in front of crowds, 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.120 whether they're Bernie generated, whether how much she's in charge 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.360 of that, how much it's Bernie's operation. That's still a 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.640 pretty strong first hundred days. Then there's Pete Footage, his 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.760 decision not to seek any office in Michigan, and he 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:56.000 was contemplating there are two open seats in Michigan, a 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.040 Senate seat and in a governor seat. Of course, he's 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.320 a new resident there. He moved the changes residency to 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.920 Michigan from Indiana, and his husband moved there. His husband's 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.400 from Michigan. So the question was going to be whether 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.240 whether he would seek state wide office in twenty six, 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:13.880 and I think if he did, he was taking himself 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:16.400 out of twenty eight. You're not if you're running for 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.760 a new office in twenty six. I think it's hard 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:21.880 to run in twenty eight if you're running for reelection 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.959 in twenty six to set up a run in twenty eight. 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:26.000 I think that's a different story. 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:26.280 JB. 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.400 Pritzker, the governor of Illinois, appears to be on that track. 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:33.120 Although it's interesting to me that David Axelrod, who's an 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:36.880 Illinois guy through and through, is a little skeptical about whether, 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:38.520 if he wants to run for president, whether it's a 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.720 good idea to also seek reelection because Illinois might not 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:46.560 be as easy of a win for him as it 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.880 has been in the past. But remember, he is a billionaire, 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.520 the heir to the Higatt fortune, so there is plenty 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:56.480 of money there for JB. Pritzker. So I don't you know, 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:58.439 is he somebody that's had a good first hundred days. 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.880 He's also somebody that wants to become the resistor on 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.880 the gubernatorial side of things, more so than a Gretchen Whitmer, 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.080 who's been seen working with Trumps. She gotten too close 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.640 to Trump. I think she certainly had the worst photo 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:12.880 op moment of any Democrat in the first under days, 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.040 with the infamous folder over her face, and then she 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.520 you know, it's look, if she wants to rise above partisanship, 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:24.400 she can't keep apologizing for showing up at events with Republicans. 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.480 That's a habit. She's got a break if she really 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:29.800 wants to rise above and say and be willing to 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.199 go to places other Democrats aren't going to go so far. Essentially, 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.920 she's done that twice now with Trump, but she's apologized. 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.480 I didn't plan to speak right coming across as if, like, 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:42.520 please don't be mad at me democratic base that I'm 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.040 doing this, but hey, swing voters, look what I'm doing, right, 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:47.959 You got to sort of project more confidence in that. 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.319 So I think that how I think the idea is 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.560 she's pursuing are good. How she's gone about him right now, 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:57.320 I think I think could use some work. There's Gavin Newsom, 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.520 who started a podcast in the first hundred days to 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:03.800 try to break out of the stereotype San Francisco liberal 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.480 narrative that I do think is going to haunt him 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.360 for however long he wants to be in the national spotlight. 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.319 There's no doubt he has ambition to run for president. 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.800 I'm somebody who believes his best shot was primary ing 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.600 Biden when that talk was active and he decided not to. 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.560 I think my guess is, you know, if he ever 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.839 I always say this. The later in life, the more 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.400 you age, you start you do start not thinking and 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:32.720 worrying about the things that you did. You start wondering 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.880 and regretting the things that you didn't do. I have 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.320 a feeling gavenusom forever is going to regret not primarying 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.920 Biden in twenty four, that that is that road not 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.440 traveled will be one that he wonders what would have 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.320 happened had he did? Would the entire party be in 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.199 better shape? Would he be seen as a hero even 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:55.160 if he didn't win? Who knows? But the extreme effort 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.600 he's making to try to sort of left wing of 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.000 eyes himself right deeper resivise them. But I don't know 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.439 what you want to call it that he's trying to do. 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.320 But he's sort of like, I'm not sure how comfortable 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.040 I am being a Democrat that you know, he's sort 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.720 of acknowledging the elephant in the room with people who 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.440 you know. But is he also gone a little bit? 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.000 Is it a little too manufactured? Right? Is it going 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.280 to be? He's got to pass whatever. Authenticity is another 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.080 subjective word. You got to be authentic, well, authentic to 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:26.520 whom right? But I get I get the overall idea, 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:28.880 if it looks like you're trying too hard, voters will 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.120 punish that as well. So I give him a mixed grade. 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:36.240 A for effort, but I don't know, if you know, 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.120 just like I would with Qretchen Wimer. A for effort, 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:42.000 but I'm not quite sure if the execution's been as 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.920 good as it could be. And then there's the people 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.440 that I expect to be players in twenty eight that 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.720 have no have decided not yet to raise their profile. 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:55.040 Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland, Andy Basheer, Governor of Kentucky, 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.480 Rafael Warnock, Senator from Georgia, Mark Kelly, Senator from Arizona, 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:01.800 Ruben guy Diego Center from Arizona. I was talking to 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.800 a polster earlier this week who said to me, you know, 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.480 when we were talking about the Wes More candidacy, because 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:10.240 I think that's going to be assuming he runs in 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.800 twenty eight. I think he will be the biggest, the 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:19.360 biggest establishment organization on the democratic side. I think he'll 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.320 have some of the biggest donors. He'll have, you know, 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.320 big some of the big names around Hi, him and Buddhajic. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.080 I expect to be sort of the biggest traditional sort 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.960 of campaign operations you have out there. But I had 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:32.880 somebody ask me, it's like, if you're going to try 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.120 to rerun Obama, be careful, right it may be especially 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.480 now that Latino voters are the new swing voters of 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.720 American politics, you know, should the Democrats be looking for 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:44.920 a Latino leader? And so to keep an eye on 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.560 Ruben Diego. He was pretty pretty liberal as a member 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.600 of the House, but he really has been trying to 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:54.240 sort of recenter himself with the with a statewide Arizona 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.120 electorate he did. You know, he got a little room 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.040 to run because of who his opponent was in the 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.560 Senate race, so that helped him a little bit. But 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.520 he's still probably you know, he's been viewing very close 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.800 to Mark Kelly here. I just keep an eye on him. 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.120 I just think that that there isn't a lot of 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.000 Latino leaders that feel like they're on the cusp of 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:19.840 putting together national campaigns that are not associated with an 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.640 ideology of AOC. But I think she, you know, I 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:28.240 don't know if she would have an automatic appeal to 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:32.960 that swing voting, working class Latino voter that may be 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:37.000 voting more on some cultural issues that they're uncomfortable with 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.160 on the progressive side. So it's going to be it's 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.440 something to watch there, and it's something that I'm curious about. 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.840 So look, I think the Democratic brand is in the 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.200 toilet and all the polling, even if the first hundred 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.560 day shows you that it still is, voters can believe 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.720 two things. At the same time, Trump's presidency is going 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.680 off is going horribly, and they haven't yet seen anything 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.240 out of the Democrats that's appetizing. It's pretty clear that 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.240 DC leadership is getting a failing grade. The DNC is 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.960 mired in its own intra party feud over David Hogg 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.840 and primary individuals, all of those things. The new DNC 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.760 chair I thinks had a hard time sort of sort 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.520 of establishing himself frankly, yet I think bogged down a 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.600 bit by this David hog controversy and the fact that 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.359 both Schumer and Jeffries have their own challenges being the 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:31.960 official leadership of the Washington class of Democrats. And it's 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.160 been fascinating. You do get this sense that a lot 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.800 of Democrats have decided to take this branding issue and 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.560 try to deal with it themselves. And I expect more 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.240 of this. This is what happened to the Democrats after 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:46.840 nineteen eighty eight, and this is what happened to the 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:48.960 Democrats to a lesser extent after two thousand and five, 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.160 two thousand and four, So I expect more of this. 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.879 And this is something about every you know, when we're 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:56.560 going to check in on the status of Trump and 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.000 the MAGA, we're going to do this with the Democrats 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.600 as well. So with that, I'm gonna pause there again. 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.600 You are gonna love this conversation with Charlie Brooker. Uh, 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:11.960 please enjoy it. If you're I'm an obsessive Black Mirror fan. 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.560 Sometimes I can't watch back to back episodes though and 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:16.720 and and get a good night's sleep, so I do 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.480 sort of limit my exposure to Black Mirror about one 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:24.880 or two episodes a week as I digest the dystopian 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:29.240 nature of our future. Uh, enjoy the interview and enjoy 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:40.359 this break. Charlie Brooker, you are a guest that my 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.360 wife is probably more excited about than anybody that I've 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:51.119 booked so far. I'm excited to don't get me wrong, Okay, 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.399 but you know you've made the missus really happy that 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.439 you're a You're going to be a guest in the 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:56.440 on the podcast here. 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:58.520 That's nice tonight. 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:01.359 So let me start with this before we get into 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.200 black mirror. Do you feel like you are the twenty 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:05.639 first century George Orwell? 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:12.800 No, I would never. No, I mean I think that, 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.560 I mean, that would be nice if somebody wants to 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.320 make that comparison. I'm not going to spend four hours 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.399 trying to desperately talk them out of it. But no, 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.760 I think he was. He was probably a more astute 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:26.920 political writer than in many. I mean, I could list 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.800 all his qualities that I'd be very British about it, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.920 aren't I I mean very British and self deprematic. No, 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:35.600 I've not felt a. 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.040 Ful humility, right, you know, I'm kidding. I'm kidding, you know, 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:40.600 please please don't tell me you know? No, no, no 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:41.200 more more. 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:44.280 I suppose it depends what do you mean in terms 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:45.840 of what do you mean? What do you mean by that? 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:47.760 In that he wrote nineteen eighty four and it was. 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:49.520 Well when you look at when you look at Orwell, 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.080 and he's probably the most prominent. Right here's somebody who 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:58.679 wrote about a futuristic dystopia. Obviously his was political satire. 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:03.960 Yours is cultural as well as societal and politically, I 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:07.080 would say, but in many ways. I you know, when 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.120 I try to separate those two, how many people say, well, 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.879 everything's politics now, everything is all fused together, right, everything is? 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.560 And I hate accepting that premise, but I understand why 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.440 people think that. So that's why I mean, I look 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.280 at it. If George orwell Will reincarded today, he wouldn't 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:27.160 be writing novels. He'd probably making episodic series like you're doing. 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:32.040 I guess probably, I suppose probably. And then and I've 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.040 probably been moaning that his show was doing better than 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:40.600 mine or something. Yes, maybe maybe I suppose it's interesting 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:45.160 because I do. It's it's an odde, it's an odd 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:49.159 BLACKMR is a weird show in that I I don't 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.040 see it as the job of the show to like 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.960 be a sort of warning about nineteen eighty four. Was 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.520 probably more felt like a warning, more overtly a wow. 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.440 A lot of people watch you, I think, watch these 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:02.920 episodes and view it as a warning. You don't view 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:04.640 that's interesting. 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.400 Well, I don't. I suppose maybe I don't explicitly set 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.760 out to be a warning because I'm I may what 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:16.040 it probably is, and a psychologist could probably it would 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:20.480 probably word out what it is better than me. It's 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:24.120 probably I'm a worrier. I'm quite an anxious and neurotic person. 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:28.040 But I've also got a background in comedy. Why often 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:32.640 it's me kind of worrying out loud. Sometimes the episodes 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:35.639 are kind of me worrying out loud. Sometimes I'm trying 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:39.000 to Sometimes it's actually coming from a sort of really 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.520 darkly comic place that we then play straight if you're 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:46.719 saying in the shirt itself. So I'm sort of but 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:50.840 predominantly I'm trying to entertain more than i'm trying to warn. 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:52.800 And if I'm trying to warn it, I'm not always 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:55.560 I wouldn't necessarily boil it down to a specific warning. 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:57.479 But one thing that frustrates me is when people say 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.480 it's a warning about technology, which I really don't think 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:01.320 that the show is. 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.320 Well, let's start beating around the bush. What's the show? 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:08.399 What is it? You did say it's a cookery show. No, 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.359 it's a am I talking about it? No it's no, 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:18.080 it's well, okay, so it definitely it's it's more about people. 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.879 I think. I think because I think while these show 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.320 I'm actually impressed by technology in my everyday life. I 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:27.399 think technology is amazing. And I used to be a 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:28.480 video games journalist. 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.320 One quiet, So you're not, you don't you don't have 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:31.960 a phobia. 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.680 I don't have a phobia about I'm impressed and amazed 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.000 by technology, and I tend to be an early adopter 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.320 of well certainly like video game consoles and things like that. 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:45.879 So I'm sort of like a tech enthusiast in many ways. 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:47.840 And I think but I but like I said, I 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.399 am a warrior, and I think that I am often 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:55.640 awestruck by what technology can do. And then that naturally 0:22:55.680 --> 0:23:00.280 leads you to worry about the implications of a powerful 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:08.800 because it's a mawful tool. And we're we're amazing creatures 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:13.440 because we create created these tools. But we're also there's 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:15.879 loads of us, and we can be clumsy, we can 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:18.439 be we've got faults, we've got flaws, and so we 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.920 can So it's sort of so if there's any sort 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:25.520 of parable going on, it's really usually in our stories, 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:28.560 it's usually a sort of active human clumsiness or an 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:32.840 active human impulsiveness or greed or jealousy or something like 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:34.920 that actually is the downfall of the character. 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:38.360 Well, you know, it's interesting I watch Black Mirror with 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:41.679 the following thought in mind, is that you're doing the 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:45.919 due diligence on the impact on human beings that the 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:49.520 tech companies themselves don't do. Right, You're sort of like, 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:51.600 and that's what I feel. In some ways, you're the 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:54.720 test kitchen for where there's is headed and I sit 0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:57.120 there and i'm you know, because we talk like there 0:23:57.119 --> 0:23:59.959 are no ethics boards with any of these you know, 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:02.439 they all every once in a while open AI claims, oh, 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:05.160 we haven't we have ethicists on staff, or we're trying 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:07.199 to have an ethics board, but really they don't. In 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:11.120 many ways, you're the human umbudsman for technology right now. 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:15.680 In that I feel like you're you're the human test kitchen, Like, Okay, yes, 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:18.560 here's this amazing tool. Like take your first episode. I 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.080 feel like we can spoil episode one. I hope everybody's 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:23.959 already seen episode one, so you take that episode. In 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:26.639 some ways, you're optimistic, look at this, We're going to 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:28.719 be able to cure, We're going to be able to 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:34.560 be essentially replace pieces of the brain. That's exciting and 0:24:34.560 --> 0:24:37.439 and and in fact, that's that is the story. 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:39.600 In the story, it's absolutely life saving. 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:42.520 It's transferred then and then but then you sort of 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:45.000 you go, okay, but what if it has to do 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:47.800 what if you're sort of stuck always having to be 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:49.600 connected to the cloud, you know. 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:54.280 Subscription model totally they're totally crush. 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:57.600 Yeah, And I can see your your comedian side in 0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:00.919 you wouldn't that be hilarious, right, You're like, uh no, yeah, upgrade, 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:03.119 you got to be on you know plus, you know, 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:08.120 or premium or whatever it is. But I could watch 0:25:08.160 --> 0:25:10.960 that episode and say, you're an optimist about where we're 0:25:11.000 --> 0:25:12.960 going and to be able to like be you know, 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:16.960 with the brain, and you're a cynic because you assume 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:19.200 somebody is going to want to profit off of people's 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:19.920 pain and suffering. 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:23.359 Well, I mean you could argue that that cynical or 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:33.840 unfortunately true. Yeah, it's realistic. And it's it's interesting that 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:38.080 where that story came about. That came about from me 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:39.200 listening to a podcast. 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:43.080 Story. I'm glad you're telling it. I find it fascinating. 0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:45.960 Explained so well, So I was listening to a podcast, 0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:48.399 you know, I listened to a lot of podcasts, and 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:52.840 when the host has to do an immediate pivot into 0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:58.159 a sales pitch, it always it strikes me as it's 0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:01.360 really quite weird when they go for talking very naturally 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:04.920 into a slightly more robotic kind of sales. 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:07.439 This is, of course, is when my producers are going 0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:09.840 to when our salespeople will insert the ad that's going 0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:13.359 to do right here, right here. 0:26:13.840 --> 0:26:16.000 And I think I'd listened to like a crime true 0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:19.800 crime podcast and the guy was sort of recounting some 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:25.400 grizzly like terrible, terrible incident and then sort of had 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:30.400 to suddenly pivot into pitching a sort of food delivery company, 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:34.920 like kind of seamlessly. And this struck me as darkly hilarious, 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:40.280 and so going into that story, I thought, Okay, here's 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:43.440 a here's a that's a very black merrory idea, because 0:26:43.440 --> 0:26:45.679 I've been thinking about, well, what if you had a 0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:48.399 service that could kind of stream part of your brain 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:50.639 like you do me if you you lose part of 0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:52.359 your brain that was a backup and it can streame 0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:54.240 it to but you've got all these issues to do 0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:58.560 with coverage, cell coverage, and then the idea of adverts 0:26:58.600 --> 0:27:03.080 that became a funny and quite dystopian thought, and and 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:05.200 so I approached that story thinking this is going to 0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:08.920 be a comedy, and it is a comedy until it isn't. 0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:13.240 And I think that's why it's quite I think obviously 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:15.240 in that episode. I think it's a very powerful episode. 0:27:15.280 --> 0:27:20.159 I think Chris and Rashida and Tracy who are starring it, 0:27:20.520 --> 0:27:23.040 and Ali Panku the director, I think everybody did an 0:27:23.040 --> 0:27:25.520 amazing job. And it's like slightly wrong footsoe because it 0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:27.560 looks like it's going to be a comedic story, and 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:32.240 then the logic of the cold logic of it gets 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:37.720 more and more inescapable, and I think that's quite quite 0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:42.960 often that's my that's not my happy place, but that's 0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:48.920 my natural I'm trying not to say wheelhouse I don't 0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:54.160 like that phrase, but well, wheelhouse is what is a wheelhouse. 0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:57.080 Where they housed wheels? You're right, I love it. By 0:27:57.080 --> 0:27:58.520 the way, It's like it's like you know, when you're 0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:01.879 when when what is it? Uh? What is it? You 0:28:01.920 --> 0:28:04.920 know when people use undaunted and un daunted, you know 0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:06.520 what I mean? There was something like that. We have 0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:09.440 these weird expressions where we never use other parts of 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:10.760 the word so I don't know, do we go to 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:12.879 the house to put wheels in it? Right? 0:28:12.960 --> 0:28:13.560 What is it? 0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:16.679 Right? You know it's where Michelin's are made. Right, You're right, 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:17.399 we've all. 0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:21.760 Been saying, none of us know. It's like uh so 0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:25.400 so so so I quite like taking a premise that's 0:28:25.440 --> 0:28:29.000 sort of comic and then you find the sort of 0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:31.880 sometimes the horror angle. Sometimes we've done episodes that are 0:28:31.880 --> 0:28:34.640 more optimistic. But I suppose there what am I saying 0:28:34.680 --> 0:28:38.920 that I I you realize then that you've got a 0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:41.920 story that is actually commenting on on lots of things, 0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:48.400 the healthcare, health care and healthcare, general cost of living and. 0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:52.600 Of healthcare. Right, like we we all know we come 0:28:52.680 --> 0:28:55.760 up with these amazing cures or there's medicine out there, 0:28:56.280 --> 0:29:00.000 but only for those that can afford it. 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.360 From perspective, I'm in the UK and I can't imagine, 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:05.680 so I have you know, we have the NHS here, 0:29:05.680 --> 0:29:07.320 which is for the point of view, so all of that, 0:29:07.360 --> 0:29:10.200 so Breaking Bad wouldn't have really worked here as a show, 0:29:10.880 --> 0:29:12.480 like if you said it in the UK, because he 0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:15.040 Walter White would go and get treatment with like he'd 0:29:15.200 --> 0:29:17.520 now the NHS has also faults, but you would go 0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:21.120 and get life saving treatment very quickly, and you wouldn't 0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:27.280 be bankrupted for that here so so so so so 0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:29.680 sometimes you did you realize, oh, I'm commenting on that. 0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:32.160 I didn't. I didn't realize when I when I walked 0:29:32.160 --> 0:29:35.360 into this sort of room narratively, I didn't realize that 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:37.320 it was also full of all of this stuff. And 0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:39.240 so you kind of realize you're in quite a rich 0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:44.120 environment in a way, so you can and you can 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:46.120 comment on lots of things. And also that episode is 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:49.120 am I had to what what's the language like on 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:50.600 this on this pod? 0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:53.040 We don't. 0:29:51.640 --> 0:29:56.040 We don't, but it's not it's not a massively offensive word. 0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:58.800 If you heard the word in shtification, in. 0:29:58.800 --> 0:30:01.560 Shita plication, I have, yeah, yes, So it's not my. 0:30:01.880 --> 0:30:05.320 Cory doctor Rose, this writer who coined this phrase in citification. 0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:07.680 And I was thinking all some of that, which is 0:30:07.680 --> 0:30:13.600 the process by which platforms or services the experience for 0:30:13.640 --> 0:30:16.000 the user degrades over time to cause well that's been 0:30:16.040 --> 0:30:17.720 it has to make a profit, it's the story. 0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:21.480 Well, it's well, all these tech companies right they sit 0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:23.640 there with the big tech, whether it's Facebook or let's 0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:27.360 take Facebook and X two really fun experiences when they 0:30:27.360 --> 0:30:31.280 first were rolled out and then they went became public companies, 0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:34.200 and then suddenly they had to they had to convince 0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:36.920 shareholders that they could keep people on the site longer, 0:30:36.960 --> 0:30:39.040 and they were staying up the platform longer, and then 0:30:39.040 --> 0:30:41.000 they were putting more ads to them. Now, how did 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:43.600 they do that? They cranked up the algorithms of anger 0:30:43.680 --> 0:30:47.840 and grievance and hey, right, like it is and then 0:30:47.880 --> 0:30:49.719 you have and then we then you look at what 0:30:49.800 --> 0:30:52.840 Elon must did and he took all the whatever guardrails 0:30:52.840 --> 0:30:55.239 there were on X, he took them off. And I 0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:58.600 think that guy was writing about the gentrification of Twitter 0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:01.800 if I'm mistaken, like that was one of examples. 0:31:02.000 --> 0:31:05.720 Yeah, kind of, and well I'm kind of sort of everything, 0:31:06.200 --> 0:31:08.960 sort of everything, and it's hard to leave, as you either, 0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:10.960 it's hard to leave. So actually it's a bit like. 0:31:10.920 --> 0:31:14.200 Because you remember, you're right, because you also remember when 0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:14.640 it was good. 0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:17.400 Yeah, when it's like being trapped in a loveless marriage, 0:31:17.480 --> 0:31:20.120 it's sort of like it's like you're trapped in this 0:31:20.680 --> 0:31:23.160 you you you entered into it. It was fun and 0:31:23.200 --> 0:31:23.720 now and then. 0:31:23.600 --> 0:31:25.960 My wife is listening to this one very closely. I 0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:27.800 don't know what that is, Charlie, I don't know what 0:31:27.960 --> 0:31:30.240 You don't know what I'm talking know what you're talking about. 0:31:30.560 --> 0:31:32.640 My wife doesn't know what I'm talking about. No, But 0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:38.680 as a metaphor, it's it's like a not what you 0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:41.320 thought you were getting into at the start. And you 0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:45.960 can't see social media all sorts of platforms, you can't 0:31:45.960 --> 0:31:49.360 see away. You're addicted to it now as well. I'm 0:31:49.400 --> 0:31:58.960 smoking smoking, That's what it's like. Yeah, and it's it's Moorish. Yeah. 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:02.719 So so so take me back to the to the creation, 0:32:02.760 --> 0:32:04.720 because what I love about the background you give a 0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:07.320 lot of hope to all of us recovering journalists who 0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:09.960 think that these creative ideas that we're all going to become. 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:12.040 You know, we're all going to make some incredible effort 0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:17.520 that helps it. Yeah, but you know, how long did 0:32:17.520 --> 0:32:19.760 you have this in your head as an idea for 0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:23.000 a TV series before you actually could get it to fruition? 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:32.000 Actually not so. I My my career path is weird, 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:34.600 and again it sort of slightly makes sense in retrospect. 0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:37.680 So I was a I was a cartoonist. First of all, 0:32:37.720 --> 0:32:39.960 I was a cartoonist. Then I was a video games journalist. 0:32:40.520 --> 0:32:42.200 Then I was sort of doing a website. Then I 0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:44.400 was working in comedy and I was writing for The Guardian, 0:32:44.480 --> 0:32:46.160 but I was doing like TV reviews, and I never 0:32:46.200 --> 0:32:49.480 considered myself a journalist. I would write columns and I 0:32:49.480 --> 0:32:52.880 would write TV reviews, but I always considered myself a 0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:56.400 bit of a bound really like I was a or 0:32:56.480 --> 0:32:59.000 I was. I was attempting to do comedy bits. I 0:32:59.000 --> 0:33:04.080 was always okay right comedy. And then I had an 0:33:04.080 --> 0:33:07.840 idea for we did a show. I had an idea 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:12.920 for a show in the UK which took a comic 0:33:12.960 --> 0:33:15.920 premise and then played it straight. It was a zombie show, 0:33:16.560 --> 0:33:19.600 and the premise was that there was a series of 0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:22.720 the TV show, the season of Big Brother, the reality show, 0:33:22.800 --> 0:33:26.040 which at the time was absolutely massive in the UK. 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:28.640 And the premise was there was a season of Big Brother, 0:33:28.720 --> 0:33:31.320 and what if there was a zombie apocalypse broke out 0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:33.960 during this and the people in the Big Brother house, 0:33:34.040 --> 0:33:36.520 who had been chosen by producers to argue and fight 0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:38.760 and not get along are sort of the only people 0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:42.960 left alive in the whole of written. And then I 0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:45.040 thought the other funds that was a fan of sort 0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:47.640 of horror and zombie things. I thought, well, what if 0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:50.760 we and then what if we play it's straight? Was 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:53.440 the other sort of the idea, and we did that 0:33:53.480 --> 0:33:57.040 and it went down really well. It was like really successful. 0:33:57.840 --> 0:33:59.960 And then so THEA it was Channel four in the UK, 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:01.600 said well what else would you like to do? And 0:34:01.600 --> 0:34:04.200 I'd always been an admirer of the Twilight Zone, and 0:34:04.800 --> 0:34:07.000 we had a show in the UK Tales to the Unexpected, 0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:11.000 which was short Rob Dahl stories. The BBC often used 0:34:11.040 --> 0:34:12.680 to when I was growing up. They put out these 0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:16.759 really bizarre sort of one off plays, sometimes about that 0:34:16.800 --> 0:34:19.640 you couldn't kind of you'd go into school the next 0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:21.160 day and did you see that thing? Wore? A man 0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:23.080 fell in love with a tree or whatever. You know. 0:34:23.120 --> 0:34:25.480 It's like a crazy sort of avant garde place. And 0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:29.120 then really terrifying films about nuclear war and stuff like this, 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:34.239 and so I so I sort of that was what 0:34:34.320 --> 0:34:36.680 I pitched, and it was originally the idea. It didn't 0:34:36.680 --> 0:34:40.239 have the technological focus so much the original pitch. It 0:34:40.320 --> 0:34:44.000 was more I was interested in I read about Rod Serling, 0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:47.840 who created the Twilight Zone, and I read so I 0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:52.720 read a sort of biography of about him, and I didn't. 0:34:52.960 --> 0:34:55.920 I hadn't appreciated the trial Zone was away niche in 0:34:55.960 --> 0:34:57.360 the UK. You had to see it was like on 0:34:57.520 --> 0:34:59.600 late at night, I sort of like ten thirty pm 0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:02.239 or eleven pm, like tucked away on a channel and 0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:07.359 at random times, but it would still really stand up 0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:10.839 and speak to me. And I hadn't appreciated that Rod 0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:13.239 Serling was a I'd only known him was the guy 0:35:13.280 --> 0:35:16.200 from The Twilight so that he was. When the Twilight 0:35:16.280 --> 0:35:19.000 Zen was first announced, people were going, why on earth 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:22.040 is he debasing himself doing the show. He's a serious playwright, 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:25.640 he's a serious writer. Why is he doing a silly 0:35:25.680 --> 0:35:27.640 show about it looks like this is going to be 0:35:27.640 --> 0:35:32.680 about UFOs and little Green men and aliens and different dimensions. 0:35:33.080 --> 0:35:34.759 And of course it was because it meant he could 0:35:34.840 --> 0:35:37.640 talk about the issues of the day without being censored, 0:35:37.840 --> 0:35:40.640 because he could he could address things as metaphor. But 0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:43.160 also to a kid watching it, it was just that's cool, 0:35:44.520 --> 0:35:46.920 a chilling sort of story, or it's got a mind 0:35:47.000 --> 0:35:51.160 mangling twist, and that's just really cool. And I kind 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:53.520 of and so that that was the impetus was to 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:56.080 do something that was a bit like that. But about 0:35:56.120 --> 0:35:58.879 now and then I kind of the more I thought 0:35:58.880 --> 0:36:00.640 about it, I thought, well, what would Rod be writing 0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:02.399 about now? What it would be technology? And it would 0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:05.240 be it would But again, at the time, at the time, 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:10.520 it was so at the time the show first, at 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:13.680 the time the show was first conceived, the view of 0:36:13.719 --> 0:36:17.680 technology was very, very positive, very positive. I think generally 0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:21.560 we thought these were these iPhones and smartphones were brilliant, 0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:24.600 and social media had helped bring about the Arab Spring, 0:36:24.600 --> 0:36:26.120 and it was going to rusher in a new era 0:36:26.239 --> 0:36:31.160 of diplomacy and democracy, and we're all going to talk 0:36:31.200 --> 0:36:34.720 to each other. And the biggest complaint anyone had about 0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:37.280 social media was that it was full of people posting 0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:40.120 photos of their breakfast and talking about my nature in 0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:45.520 their life and being a little narcissistic, not unhinged. So 0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:51.560 it wasn't this sort of unhinged vortex of anger and hatred. 0:36:52.560 --> 0:36:56.279 But because it seemed so rosy, the portrayal of it 0:36:56.320 --> 0:37:01.360 seemed so rosy, and that it made me that the anxious, 0:37:01.640 --> 0:37:05.279 neurotic person in me was immediately distrustful and scared, right 0:37:05.320 --> 0:37:07.240 if because you kind of think. 0:37:07.600 --> 0:37:12.000 Well, now we've all flipped, right now, everybody's now everybody's 0:37:12.040 --> 0:37:15.279 negative on tech, right, there's a general this is you know, 0:37:15.320 --> 0:37:18.000 there's a general concern right there. Immediately just look at 0:37:18.480 --> 0:37:21.680 just look at how I think we're all approaching AI. 0:37:21.840 --> 0:37:24.680 There's this immediate art. Yeah, sure, you know, because there's 0:37:24.719 --> 0:37:26.160 always a lot of we don't want to do what 0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:28.440 we did with social media, where we were sort of yay, 0:37:28.719 --> 0:37:31.200 this is awesome, right, like you know this we're taking 0:37:31.200 --> 0:37:34.760 down dictators and only to find out whoa dictators figured 0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:39.640 out how to use this themselves. Oh oh do you 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:41.440 now do you think you're going to find yourself if 0:37:41.440 --> 0:37:43.719 you're a zagger and it sounds like you're a zagger, right, 0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:46.880 if everybody's going one way, you're like, okay, this is 0:37:46.880 --> 0:37:49.799 probably the time we need to show people what the 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:52.440 what the other path might look like. Are you going 0:37:52.520 --> 0:37:53.840 to go optimist on us? 0:37:54.160 --> 0:37:57.279 I'm probably more of a boring centrist in a way 0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:00.600 in terms of like, so I can worry again, I can. 0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:04.880 I have a natural ability to worry about anything. I 0:38:04.920 --> 0:38:09.400 can leap over five linipads over to immediate destruction and 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:12.240 the apocalypse very quickly. You could show me a spoon 0:38:13.000 --> 0:38:15.799 and I would worry about terrible things that someone could 0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:21.000 do with that spoon, and so I can totally sit 0:38:21.040 --> 0:38:26.320 with AI. It's I can absolutely understand all the terrifying 0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:28.960 implications and it's the unknown, isn't it really is? 0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:29.480 We don't know. 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:36.800 But you can also see, Okay, there are there's meread opportunities. 0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:39.520 That is an amazing tool, and we're not going to 0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:43.360 we can't really put the genie back in the bottle. 0:38:43.520 --> 0:38:49.319 We've invented this. Yes, I worry. I worry about you know, 0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:51.839 if you've got if you're in a kind of AI 0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:57.360 arms race, then obviously there's a an impetus to like 0:38:57.440 --> 0:39:00.000 and and people start thinking that guardrails are slowing them down, 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:03.880 then there's a this is the reason to you know, 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:08.040 dismantle any guard rounds that there are. I think, kind 0:39:08.040 --> 0:39:13.120 of like anything, the printing press was an amazing, like 0:39:13.239 --> 0:39:16.120 one of the most amazing inventions in history. Caused all 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:20.640 sorts of people because suddenly you had this way that 0:39:21.280 --> 0:39:24.960 ideas could be disseminated. Obviously, no one would say the 0:39:25.000 --> 0:39:27.320 printing press was a bad invention. 0:39:27.760 --> 0:39:30.480 Right, Well, my favorite you know what the second you know, 0:39:30.520 --> 0:39:34.120 if if the printing press was the single greatest invention 0:39:34.239 --> 0:39:39.520 to expand literacy to civilization. The number two most important 0:39:39.520 --> 0:39:46.680 invention were eyeglasses. So and I it's not my idea. 0:39:46.680 --> 0:39:48.560 This was a fellow journalist who I was at this. 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:51.960 You know, we were talking about all these technological transformations, 0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:54.160 and you know, somebody was mentioned the printing press, and 0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:56.400 then somebody mentioned the internet and computers and all this stuff. 0:39:56.400 --> 0:39:58.879 And it turned out like if you if you look back, 0:39:59.000 --> 0:40:04.520 the second most hot invention for essentially literacy, right eye glasses, 0:40:05.080 --> 0:40:08.799 you know, was the people would actually see Yeah, I 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:10.920 was in front of you could read right, you know, 0:40:11.200 --> 0:40:12.719 and it was one of those moments you were like, 0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:15.879 well duh, but you don't think sometimes we don't think 0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:17.360 of a No. 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:23.239 Actually, that's a good example of a extremely in a way, 0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:27.799 very positively disruptive technology but probably obviously clearly did a 0:40:27.800 --> 0:40:30.279 lot more harmor good. Unless you can bet somebody put 0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:32.120 on a pair of eyeglasses and went right, I don't 0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:33.520 like that guy over there. 0:40:33.840 --> 0:40:36.359 Man, I didn't realize how much I didn't like. It 0:40:36.480 --> 0:40:36.920 ended a lot. 0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:42.319 I don't like my neighbors. Yeah so so, But like 0:40:42.440 --> 0:40:45.160 I guess, with any of these, with AI, you can 0:40:45.239 --> 0:40:50.200 see that the potential is incredible. The potential for it 0:40:50.239 --> 0:40:55.960 as a tool is incredible. The obvious worry I think 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:59.320 that we all have is is that guy going to 0:40:59.400 --> 0:41:02.080 take my job? Is that that? Is that guy going 0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:03.680 to take my job? And then is that guy going 0:41:03.760 --> 0:41:06.120 to run things from that? Is that guy going to 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:08.680 be my boss? Not just take my job, but going 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:13.640 to be my boss? And how how do we manage that? 0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:17.560 If that's the case. And I don't know, Jim, I don't. 0:41:17.640 --> 0:41:23.120 I think like any writer, you you look at like 0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:28.480 something like chat GPT and you are it's worrisome. It's 0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:31.240 it's a it's a it's a worry, and you worry 0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:37.520 about replacing any if we end up replacing I mean 0:41:37.560 --> 0:41:41.920 I could I'm talking creatively if you end up replacing 0:41:42.719 --> 0:41:50.040 if any creative work is is one human attempting to 0:41:50.040 --> 0:41:53.839 communicate with other humans. If you take the cuman out 0:41:53.840 --> 0:41:57.239 of one end of that hype, I don't know what, 0:41:57.280 --> 0:42:00.640 You've got a different I think you've got a different form. 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:02.640 You've got a different thing that I asked you. 0:42:02.600 --> 0:42:06.799 That is, have you used any Have you used AI 0:42:07.000 --> 0:42:10.920 to workshop or road test any of your ideas? Have 0:42:11.040 --> 0:42:14.359 you used a chat GBT as sort of like a 0:42:14.440 --> 0:42:16.319 tenth writer in your writer room. 0:42:17.160 --> 0:42:21.360 I think if you start replacing writers in your well, weirdly, 0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:23.400 we don't have a we don't actually have a writing 0:42:23.480 --> 0:42:24.400 room or black mirror. 0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:27.360 We say, what do you do? Like, tell me about 0:42:27.400 --> 0:42:29.319 like the pitch meetings, Like how does that work? 0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:33.520 Well, now it's just I'm walking around occasionally. So I've 0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:36.520 collaborated with right, so we've done there's there's two of 0:42:36.520 --> 0:42:39.600 the episodes this season are co written. But we don't 0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:42.120 have like a formal writing room where people are sort 0:42:42.160 --> 0:42:45.200 of pitching ideas and stuff. Usually what's happening is I'm 0:42:45.239 --> 0:42:50.359 wandering around thinking I've got nuggets of idea, and then 0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:52.879 they'll sort of coalesce at some point if that makes 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:55.880 it like a sudden nature, I'll think, Oh, I know, 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:57.920 I want to do a story about this, and I 0:42:57.920 --> 0:43:00.680 want to do a story with and here's a cool scene. 0:43:00.760 --> 0:43:02.560 I've got this. Well, here's a moment I want to do, 0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:04.080 but I don't. I don't know what the story is. 0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:05.759 And then I'll see something else or I'll think of 0:43:05.800 --> 0:43:10.440 something and that will bause me to knit those ideas together. Now, 0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:15.400 whether I could regurgitate all those ideas into an AI 0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:18.440 and go can you see connections between them. I probably 0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:19.080 could do that. 0:43:19.320 --> 0:43:21.080 Would it? Would it? 0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:23.719 That's a scary Again, there was a good roll dull 0:43:23.840 --> 0:43:26.520 story about that, about an automatous writing machine with pedals 0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:30.680 for that's a scary Are you hatening your own demise 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:34.080 by doing that? Certainly? I can see obviously when when 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:37.040 chat gpt first launched, the first thing I did was 0:43:37.080 --> 0:43:39.439 you say to it, com then tell me a black 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:42.799 mirror a type idea, and it started coming out with 0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:46.919 something that initially you go, oh god, that's that's okay. 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:50.560 That sounds plausible. It's sounded plausible, but it was also 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:53.399 the more so you get the immediate as just watching 0:43:53.440 --> 0:43:55.919 the sentences come in. You haven't a media like Jesus Chris. 0:43:56.040 --> 0:43:59.200 You know, oh my god, this is I'm watching myself 0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:03.080 get dismantled. I'm watching the death of my career in 0:44:03.080 --> 0:44:05.319 real And then you go, actually, oh, actually, now this 0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:08.160 isn't that good. This is very this is generic, and 0:44:08.200 --> 0:44:11.520 it's for me like, oh, when I see this feels 0:44:11.560 --> 0:44:17.880 like a lukewarm, right, not very interesting pitch that actually 0:44:17.960 --> 0:44:21.440 is just bubbled together from fragments of because it's a. 0:44:21.360 --> 0:44:25.120 Bit like the it's it doesn't and I think it 0:44:25.120 --> 0:44:28.080 doesn't work if there's not a human creative elopment. I 0:44:28.080 --> 0:44:29.279 think that's what we're going to learn. 0:44:29.920 --> 0:44:32.640 I think so, but I hope so. And I think 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:34.960 that we'll always want it. That's the other thing. I 0:44:34.960 --> 0:44:36.400 think we'll always want that. 0:44:36.560 --> 0:44:38.960 The thing is, I'm convinced we're going to have to 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:42.719 start paying extra for human customer service, like I've been. 0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:45.239 I hate AI customer service, right. You feel like they 0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:48.480 don't know. You get the automated chats or the automated this, 0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:52.560 and then you're like representative or ah, you know, you 0:44:52.640 --> 0:44:54.960 hit your zero whatever it is, and you have to 0:44:55.000 --> 0:44:57.520 wait longer to get a human being. I actually think 0:44:57.600 --> 0:44:59.960 some business is going to say, hey, why don't we 0:45:00.239 --> 0:45:04.400 charge people as a human to talk to a human? 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:06.399 But how will you know you're talking to a human? 0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:09.480 That's the problem, then, rates because you get well at 0:45:09.480 --> 0:45:11.319 the moment, it's because you get the equivalent of a 0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:16.120 sort of novelty be fob that impresses, that makes four 0:45:16.200 --> 0:45:19.919 sound effects. That's your like when they're rubbish and you're 0:45:19.920 --> 0:45:21.759 talking to one and it's just going I'm sorry to 0:45:21.760 --> 0:45:24.919 hear that. You feel that you're cross. Have you tried 0:45:24.960 --> 0:45:28.000 looking up on our website. It's sort of chatbot that's 0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:33.600 frustrating when you've got one, but you're within By next year, 0:45:33.640 --> 0:45:37.000 you'll probably have one that within six minutes you'll be 0:45:37.000 --> 0:45:39.480 telling it your deepest, darkest secrets and confiding in it, 0:45:39.600 --> 0:45:42.920 because I mean, they're basically like Eliza, which was the 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:45.319 that was the first sort of AI chatbot. Was this 0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:48.240 thing Eliza, wasn't it? That was the sixties, late sixties 0:45:48.840 --> 0:45:50.279 something of that, and it was designed to be a 0:45:50.320 --> 0:45:54.360 sort of to just do what a basic psychologist would do, 0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:56.239 and it would just mirror back what you said to it. 0:45:56.600 --> 0:45:59.480 And there's a sort of famous anecdote about the guy 0:45:59.520 --> 0:46:04.400 who created Eliza asked his secretary to test it out, 0:46:04.440 --> 0:46:07.120 and within about twenty minutes she asked him to leave 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:10.920 the room because she was telling it things that were private. 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:13.799 And all that was was a very basic bit of 0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:16.120 code that would go hello, what's your name and you'd 0:46:16.160 --> 0:46:18.120 say my name is Charlie, So how are you feeling today? 0:46:18.120 --> 0:46:20.320 And you go quite sad and would go, oh, Charlie, 0:46:20.320 --> 0:46:22.560 why are you feeling quite sad? And then before you 0:46:22.600 --> 0:46:26.560 know it, you're regurgitating yourself. And so they'll probably get 0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:29.160 to that point where you'll pay it not to speak 0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:33.800 to a human and you'll you're being speaking to her. 0:46:34.040 --> 0:46:38.600 You'll be you'll be being psycho. You'll be sharing your 0:46:38.760 --> 0:46:42.120 deepest secrets with an AI therapist who's available twenty four 0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:42.640 hours a day. 0:46:43.360 --> 0:46:45.279 So if I didn't know you, I would assume you 0:46:45.280 --> 0:46:48.640 were a privacy nut, like you're obsessed with privacy, because 0:46:48.719 --> 0:46:51.719 a lot I would argue a lot of your episodes 0:46:52.520 --> 0:46:55.080 deal with the issue. 0:46:55.320 --> 0:46:59.000 I think you're right, but also, like people get shocked 0:46:59.040 --> 0:47:02.080 when I say I've like we've got like an Amazon 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:03.319 Alexa device in the house. 0:47:03.400 --> 0:47:05.319 No, you're right, I am already shocked at how much 0:47:05.320 --> 0:47:07.680 of a tech advocate you are. Because you're right. If 0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:10.040 I didn't know you, you're this is what you do, and 0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:12.800 you be like, well, this guy is probably off the grid. 0:47:12.920 --> 0:47:16.120 He probably has the aluminum foil on the doors. 0:47:16.360 --> 0:47:18.799 You know. Oh, I'm like that. I'm not the unibomber. No, 0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:21.319 people often think it's like me in a yes, in 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:25.480 a wooden shack with foil. Yeah, like you say, foil around. 0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:27.560 Always spoil, there's always boil always. 0:47:27.760 --> 0:47:30.080 But that would if I was sitting there, my computers 0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:34.000 wouldn't work, I'd be so sad and so I mean, 0:47:34.000 --> 0:47:36.840 I wouldn't say. I mean the problem is I don't 0:47:36.880 --> 0:47:40.880 think that I really do worry. I really worry about 0:47:41.200 --> 0:47:44.160 obviously in the creative industries, I massively worry about what 0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:48.640 AI could do as in terms of it's already a 0:47:48.680 --> 0:47:52.719 tight time, it's already a you know, challenging environment, you 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:58.000 might say, and it could wreak real human habit very quickly. 0:47:58.440 --> 0:48:03.440 I can also see why, why why it's going to be. 0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:07.640 I mean, someone's going to do a movie that's using 0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:10.040 this generator, Like like when Toy Story came out and 0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:13.760 it was the first CGI animated cartoon, and everyone went, oh, 0:48:13.760 --> 0:48:15.960 you can do that, Wow, okay, and it sort of, 0:48:17.320 --> 0:48:20.200 you know, we didn't lose the art of hand drawn animation, 0:48:20.320 --> 0:48:24.600 but it meant that, you know, the default the animated 0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:25.480 films became. 0:48:25.320 --> 0:48:29.759 Doesn't it? In fairness, doesn't every technological advancement put somebody's 0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:33.160 career get rid of some sort of you know, refrigeration. 0:48:33.280 --> 0:48:34.959 We used to have people that worked in the ice 0:48:35.000 --> 0:48:38.680 block industry, right, you know, literally blocks of ice. Right, 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:41.000 we had refrigeration, and you didn't need the block of 0:48:41.000 --> 0:48:43.600 ice people anymore. Now there was probably a lot of 0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:46.439 people lamenting that those jobs were gone. Oh my god, 0:48:46.560 --> 0:48:48.479 where we automation is replacing jobs? 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:48.640 Right? 0:48:49.160 --> 0:48:52.040 I'm being a I mean, I would argue this is 0:48:52.080 --> 0:48:55.120 sort of a repetitive cycle when it comes to any 0:48:55.160 --> 0:48:56.360 technological advancement. 0:48:57.000 --> 0:49:00.319 It is, I supposed to the why he comes when 0:49:00.600 --> 0:49:05.120 it's when it's when it's it's all jobs, that's the problem. 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:11.480 But it's basically when it's when it's all careers or 0:49:11.560 --> 0:49:14.520 jobs or not not all careers or jobs, because again 0:49:14.560 --> 0:49:16.359 I don't I have no idea how this stuff will 0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:17.920 pan out. Do you know what I mean? I don't 0:49:17.960 --> 0:49:26.040 actually know. But it's how we find It's beyond even 0:49:26.040 --> 0:49:29.520 the financial obviously, the financial impact on how you run, 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:34.279 Like purpose, just what's our how we find purpose and 0:49:34.400 --> 0:49:37.200 meaning in what we do. If a lot of what 0:49:37.239 --> 0:49:45.799 we do is replicated tirelessly by a system, I don't 0:49:45.840 --> 0:49:50.719 really know what that does to us psychologically. So it's 0:49:51.280 --> 0:49:54.759 so I think it's it's it's it's And again you 0:49:54.760 --> 0:49:57.160 could argue, well, maybe I only I am worrying about it 0:49:57.200 --> 0:49:59.320 now because you know, I'm a writer, and I feel 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:02.120 like that's under three. And again I can see the 0:50:02.200 --> 0:50:04.920 value in it as a like you say, as a tool. 0:50:05.200 --> 0:50:08.799 I can see the value in as a tool. You know, 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:10.800 we don't take an artist. We don't think we teach, 0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:11.839 we don't. 0:50:12.000 --> 0:50:15.040 We don't teach spelling anymore, you know. And I was 0:50:15.200 --> 0:50:18.120 like spelling test. I was, I loved and I was 0:50:18.160 --> 0:50:20.040 obsessed as a kid. I'm in my fifties now. Of 0:50:20.080 --> 0:50:24.239 course spell check happened probably after college, and then all 0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:26.320 of a sudden, now we don't care about you can't 0:50:26.360 --> 0:50:30.759 miss spell words anymore because of autocorrect, like people, and 0:50:30.800 --> 0:50:32.319 so I don't know what to make of that, but 0:50:32.480 --> 0:50:34.440 that is something now longer is relevant. 0:50:34.719 --> 0:50:37.960 Yeah, no, is not an American thing because that in Britain. 0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:43.000 My kids, my kids, I remember them, they talked so 0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:45.920 much about spelling and like phrases. I didn't know what 0:50:45.960 --> 0:50:47.440 that like. They come home and go, I've got to 0:50:47.440 --> 0:50:49.279 do this work about try grass again. 0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:52.799 Everybody thinks a British are smarter than we are. There 0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:54.600 you go, guys are still being todd spelling. 0:50:55.239 --> 0:50:59.080 I don't know that we are. I think we're probably 0:50:59.080 --> 0:51:02.879 not being taught all all sorts of other things from 0:51:02.920 --> 0:51:04.080 British history or whatever. 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:06.760 But you get my boy, like spelling is no longer. 0:51:06.840 --> 0:51:08.439 You know, there was a time right if you weren't 0:51:08.440 --> 0:51:12.200 a good speller, you were uncomfortable even writing a letter 0:51:12.280 --> 0:51:14.160 you would get you know, you would worry that it 0:51:14.200 --> 0:51:17.920 would create a judgment of you, and and people would, oh, 0:51:17.920 --> 0:51:21.480 you're not a good speller, you're not educated. And now 0:51:22.640 --> 0:51:25.000 you know, we got the tools. You don't worry about it, right, 0:51:25.040 --> 0:51:28.320 And is that a have we taken away something from society? 0:51:28.360 --> 0:51:30.120 And again seems like a. 0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:35.359 No no, because you're probably it means that you can 0:51:35.560 --> 0:51:38.319 you're not. There'll be people who were held back by 0:51:38.360 --> 0:51:40.320 the fact that they were dyslexic, or they were just 0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:42.239 weren't good at one thing and they were excelled at 0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:44.680 something else. And now it levels the playing field a 0:51:44.680 --> 0:51:46.480 little more. So that's a good thing. But again, I 0:51:46.480 --> 0:51:48.800 think the problem is that we we're sort of trained, 0:51:48.840 --> 0:51:51.880 were naturally sort of analyze everything and think is this 0:51:52.000 --> 0:51:54.200 good or bad? And the answer is it's kind of both, 0:51:54.280 --> 0:51:54.600 isn't it? 0:51:54.640 --> 0:51:59.680 So it's so again, hands right, it turns out it's neutral. Right, 0:52:00.120 --> 0:52:02.960 what we don't think of it now? All technology is neutral. 0:52:03.719 --> 0:52:06.880 It's the humans that use it. Are they using using. 0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:10.799 It's a powerful, very useful tool. It can also be. 0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:15.200 Terrifying of death or a name in life. 0:52:15.239 --> 0:52:17.160 I mean we could list you could you can list 0:52:17.200 --> 0:52:21.080 every tool in the tools in that wheelhouse and the 0:52:21.480 --> 0:52:24.960 wheel you know, someone can drive around their house and 0:52:25.440 --> 0:52:29.160 pick the door in so so it is it's just 0:52:29.200 --> 0:52:33.279 that it's the pace of it, The dizzying speed with 0:52:33.320 --> 0:52:37.719 which these things are coming along, I think is the 0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:42.000 thing that makes people rightly anxious. But it's also it 0:52:42.080 --> 0:52:46.640 is exciting, but it's also terrifying. 0:52:47.239 --> 0:52:49.479 I'd say another theme. Let me ask you about another 0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:51.880 theme that does seem to come through consumer You know, 0:52:52.160 --> 0:52:57.799 consumerism is something you seem to enjoy. Is that more 0:52:57.800 --> 0:53:01.160 of a of a comedic element to you or. 0:53:00.480 --> 0:53:02.279 It's often a darkly committed because one of the I 0:53:02.320 --> 0:53:05.480 think I mentioned the Twilight Zone, I mentioned sort of 0:53:05.520 --> 0:53:09.120 weird British TV shows, and I think one of the 0:53:09.160 --> 0:53:12.440 things that and I've realized recently how much it influenced 0:53:12.440 --> 0:53:18.239 blackmir RoboCop thee eighty eighty seven. Was it like RoboCop 0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:18.680 the original? 0:53:19.120 --> 0:53:21.440 And I'm so glad you about that is a weirdly 0:53:21.520 --> 0:53:26.080 brilliant movie. People simpully appreciate it. It's a brilliant brilliant 0:53:26.080 --> 0:53:26.719 movie ahead of. 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:29.799 Its time, way ahead of its time. It's a brilliant 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:33.600 comedy as well. It's like a really dark comedy in 0:53:33.600 --> 0:53:36.000 a way that when I loved it, when I was 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:39.040 like a teenager, I saw it and wore the VHS 0:53:39.040 --> 0:53:40.959 out watching it over and over again. And I think 0:53:41.000 --> 0:53:43.240 a lot of the actually a lot of the comedy 0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:47.359 sailed over my head. But what I really be sort 0:53:47.400 --> 0:53:51.080 of the dystopian commodification of everything that was going on, 0:53:51.120 --> 0:53:54.160 and that was excellently done. I have to say. As 0:53:54.160 --> 0:53:58.359 a brit it was fairly, very heavily influenced by Judge Dread, 0:53:58.400 --> 0:54:01.839 which was Aish British. 0:54:01.480 --> 0:54:06.160 Coblis, which what do you mean? And they made into 0:54:06.160 --> 0:54:09.520 a movie a couple years later because of the robotcarp. 0:54:09.080 --> 0:54:14.320 Yes, so so. But but but the there's there's always 0:54:14.360 --> 0:54:17.520 been something I think at heart and again this isn't 0:54:17.680 --> 0:54:19.800 I don't. This is not what I sit down thinking 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:22.960 when coming up with a Black Mirror story. I don't 0:54:23.000 --> 0:54:25.920 think this is what I want to write about it. 0:54:26.000 --> 0:54:29.240 Actually it's looking back, you go, Oh, that's what it's about. 0:54:29.640 --> 0:54:32.560 Almost every episode is about what's real and authentic in 0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:36.840 some way. You could argue almost every episode we do ultimately, 0:54:36.880 --> 0:54:40.520 that's it. Whether it's a story where it's people passed 0:54:40.520 --> 0:54:44.400 into a sort of VR simulation of something, or it's 0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:47.520 you know, a character who is suddenly having to spout 0:54:47.560 --> 0:54:49.879 sales pictures in their every day life. It's it's kind 0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:52.799 of always about what's authentic, and that's something that's kind 0:54:52.800 --> 0:54:54.200 of under assault all the time. 0:54:54.280 --> 0:54:56.239 Well, look, I think one of the other brilliant things 0:54:56.239 --> 0:54:59.520 you do is here you're dealing with a bunch of 0:54:59.560 --> 0:55:05.359 feu futuristic ideas, but the setting always feels right now right. 0:55:05.480 --> 0:55:09.480 You don't. You're always I feel like you're basically saying, hey, 0:55:09.520 --> 0:55:11.200 this is a little bit in the future, but it's 0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:14.160 very but we're going to make sure everything else is 0:55:14.160 --> 0:55:17.279 as familiar as possible. So you have the beaten up 0:55:17.360 --> 0:55:22.160 Volvo right in episode one, and things in some ways 0:55:22.200 --> 0:55:24.560 things were the same, you know, the open place you 0:55:24.640 --> 0:55:28.000 go get a crappy burger and things like this, But 0:55:28.040 --> 0:55:30.239 then you have these little grace notes like the honeybees, 0:55:30.440 --> 0:55:34.480 which I know is a theme, and a few other things. 0:55:35.200 --> 0:55:38.480 It seemed very intentional. This is a seasonal you've always 0:55:38.520 --> 0:55:42.399 wanted to keep. You don't ever put people. You don't 0:55:42.400 --> 0:55:46.279 try to create futuristic landscapes. I've noticed, No, we don't. 0:55:46.320 --> 0:55:49.120 I suppose it's because again, it's usually even when we've 0:55:49.160 --> 0:55:53.160 done we've done stories where there's a hugely you know, 0:55:53.360 --> 0:55:57.000 we're taking huge liberties with what is. You know, we're 0:55:57.000 --> 0:56:00.279 showing things that probably will never quite be possible, showing 0:56:00.320 --> 0:56:04.920 people kind of uploading their stoles or you know. But 0:56:04.920 --> 0:56:08.560 but you kind of always want to keep one foot 0:56:08.600 --> 0:56:12.600 on the ground. I think that's just my personal taste 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:15.840 is more the RoboCop end of sci fi than it 0:56:15.960 --> 0:56:18.920 is the Star Wars end of sci fi, which is 0:56:18.960 --> 0:56:22.160 more space opera in a far flung future, and it's 0:56:22.760 --> 0:56:25.640 it's more like it more into fantasy. So I'm more 0:56:25.680 --> 0:56:29.680 sort of that kind of, oh, this could happen at 0:56:29.719 --> 0:56:33.360 the end of my street if things go badly wrong. 0:56:34.440 --> 0:56:36.560 I tend to respond more to that, I think as 0:56:36.600 --> 0:56:40.560 a viewer, and so that's probably why that's where we 0:56:40.719 --> 0:56:43.920 probably operate most strongly. 0:56:44.880 --> 0:56:48.759 Do you do you take a Do you try to 0:56:48.800 --> 0:56:53.600 meet with innovators in in in Silicon Valley and tech 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:57.720 entrepreneurs to try to find out what's coming in heaving? 0:56:58.719 --> 0:57:02.280 Or are you is? Are you just sort of saying, 0:57:02.960 --> 0:57:05.880 you know, it's possible, we'll start replacing the pieces of 0:57:05.920 --> 0:57:08.200 the brain and this is probably how we how we'll 0:57:08.239 --> 0:57:11.360 be able to stop you know, geoblastoma or whatever it is. 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:12.960 I'll pack it out and be able to replace this. 0:57:13.640 --> 0:57:16.360 Is that just you guessing or do you just meek 0:57:16.400 --> 0:57:19.440 to experts that give you well, this could be what 0:57:19.480 --> 0:57:19.840 we do. 0:57:21.040 --> 0:57:25.080 It's predominantly me guessing. Basically, it's me guessing or extrapolating, 0:57:25.480 --> 0:57:28.360 or usually you just you're not even thinking of technology 0:57:28.360 --> 0:57:31.200 when you start thinking about it, you know, you're thinking 0:57:31.240 --> 0:57:37.120 of something else, and then you realize that you can 0:57:37.240 --> 0:57:41.120 use you can give It would almost be a supernatural story, 0:57:41.160 --> 0:57:45.760 except you can give it a sort of technological explanation. 0:57:46.000 --> 0:57:47.920 We did an episode last season. We did an episode 0:57:47.960 --> 0:57:52.800 called Joanie's Awful where it's a woman called Joan play 0:57:52.840 --> 0:57:55.280 by Annie Murphy, switches on the TV and season of 0:57:55.320 --> 0:58:01.080 the streaming platform that's showing a drama, a dramatization of 0:58:01.160 --> 0:58:06.360 her life starring Salma Hayak, And that's a very Twilight 0:58:06.440 --> 0:58:08.720 Zone story in many ways. In the Twilight Zone it 0:58:08.720 --> 0:58:10.640 would have been like magic, or it would have been 0:58:10.680 --> 0:58:12.960 the uncanny. We can sort of say, it's AI deep 0:58:13.000 --> 0:58:16.480 fake videos, it's that, So you're sort of coming at 0:58:16.480 --> 0:58:19.520 it from that angle. I probably should go and speak 0:58:19.560 --> 0:58:22.680 to more sort of tech because sometimes there's things like 0:58:23.000 --> 0:58:25.200 sometimes there's things where I've put it in the episode, 0:58:25.240 --> 0:58:27.400 thinking I'm being very clever here, and then you realize 0:58:27.400 --> 0:58:29.840 that it's actually like the honey bees. We did an 0:58:29.880 --> 0:58:34.520 episode in season three called Hated in the Nation, which 0:58:34.560 --> 0:58:38.840 is where we first have these grown autonomous drone miniature 0:58:38.880 --> 0:58:41.000 honey bees that were going around replaced because I'd read 0:58:41.000 --> 0:58:45.760 something about honeybees dying out and colony collapse and then 0:58:46.360 --> 0:58:48.160 and then I thought, oh, well, what if you had 0:58:48.200 --> 0:58:53.760 little miniature drone ones that could fly around and pollinate flowers? 0:58:53.960 --> 0:58:55.600 And I thought I was being very clever and then 0:58:56.160 --> 0:58:58.480 discovered that I think that experiment had been running for. 0:58:59.360 --> 0:59:01.880 I would just say, are there stuff that you've done? 0:59:01.880 --> 0:59:05.400 You're like, oh wow, I didn't you know that. You 0:59:05.560 --> 0:59:08.640 just either that or you foreshadowed something. 0:59:09.120 --> 0:59:15.520 But well, the most unusual one, there's definitely okay. So 0:59:15.560 --> 0:59:19.000 we did. There's an episode we did back in season 0:59:19.040 --> 0:59:22.240 two called be Right Back, where it's Hailey Atwell and 0:59:22.280 --> 0:59:25.680 Donald Gleason and and Hailey plays this woman called Martha 0:59:25.720 --> 0:59:29.280 whose husband dies in an accident. This is it's almost 0:59:29.440 --> 0:59:32.000 it's almost a companion piece to common people this season. 0:59:32.640 --> 0:59:35.160 And anyway she is off the day she's missing him, 0:59:35.160 --> 0:59:37.960 she's discovers she's pregnant. She's desperate to just be able 0:59:38.000 --> 0:59:39.720 to if only he knew this, only she could talk 0:59:39.760 --> 0:59:41.720 to him. She's offered this service which allows her to 0:59:41.720 --> 0:59:45.800 communicate with him from and it's an AI that's based 0:59:45.840 --> 0:59:51.480 on his social media output. I didn't realize at the 0:59:51.520 --> 0:59:55.480 time that that was It felt to me like something 0:59:55.480 --> 0:59:58.440 that would become possible. I didn't realize how closely that 0:59:58.520 --> 1:00:00.040 mimics what. 1:00:00.040 --> 1:00:03.800 Logic and that's you know, oh, not only that, I 1:00:04.080 --> 1:00:11.960 happen to be very involved in various ways to how 1:00:11.960 --> 1:00:14.520 do we educate people about the Holocaust and things like that, 1:00:15.000 --> 1:00:17.480 And there's a take there. What they're going to do 1:00:17.760 --> 1:00:21.720 is they've taken all of these historical oral histories and 1:00:21.800 --> 1:00:25.200 Holocaust survivors have done and they're essentially going to generate 1:00:25.680 --> 1:00:28.480 even though they've passed on, they're still going to tell 1:00:28.520 --> 1:00:30.280 you their story and then you're going to be able 1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:35.240 to interact with them and have a conversation literally speak 1:00:35.680 --> 1:00:38.000 and respond, and it's going to be a large where 1:00:38.080 --> 1:00:40.280 you have a back and forth with a Holocaust survivor, 1:00:40.600 --> 1:00:43.600 you ask questions and the AI based on I mean, 1:00:43.920 --> 1:00:47.000 it's it's one of those At first you think it's dystopient, 1:00:47.040 --> 1:00:49.200 but you know what, that's an interesting you know, are 1:00:49.200 --> 1:00:53.280 we going to well Albert Einstein, Well, forget Albert Einstein, 1:00:53.280 --> 1:00:55.320 how about this because this is probably more recent because 1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:59.400 there's well, Steve Jobs teach a computer science class AI 1:00:59.520 --> 1:01:04.680 Steve teacher, computer science class in twenty thirty five. 1:01:05.920 --> 1:01:09.000 That's difficult, isn't it? Because what you're describing that, that's what, 1:01:09.080 --> 1:01:11.959 that's the that's the that sounds like the high tech 1:01:12.040 --> 1:01:16.480 equivalent of it's almost saying. It's like when you you know, 1:01:16.520 --> 1:01:19.520 you could read the diaries of Samuel Peeps in the 1:01:19.560 --> 1:01:22.400 sort of whatever century and you get and suddenly that 1:01:22.560 --> 1:01:25.320 period of history becomes alive and you feel because you're 1:01:25.320 --> 1:01:27.200 hearing somebody's and then. 1:01:27.880 --> 1:01:29.560 What you think his voice might have looked like, and 1:01:29.680 --> 1:01:31.160 you have his image and then all of a sudden, 1:01:31.160 --> 1:01:31.720 there you go. 1:01:32.440 --> 1:01:36.040 I can see that that he's recounting what happened to him. 1:01:36.440 --> 1:01:41.400 If you're talking about rebuilt like Steve jobs. Would you 1:01:41.440 --> 1:01:44.440 would would he have left enough information behind for you 1:01:44.520 --> 1:01:48.200 to get his how he would innovate ideas and how 1:01:48.240 --> 1:01:55.360 he would create things. I don't know God really thought 1:01:55.400 --> 1:02:01.840 about the educational uses uh of that as a platform. 1:02:01.840 --> 1:02:03.160 But it's quite mean, I guess I look at the 1:02:03.240 --> 1:02:08.360 Holocaust survivors telling their story to children who can ask questions. 1:02:08.400 --> 1:02:10.560 That feels like, Okay, that's a good thing. You could 1:02:10.560 --> 1:02:13.120 see that tool, you know where does you know? 1:02:13.120 --> 1:02:13.360 Where? 1:02:13.360 --> 1:02:15.240 Where do you say okay, that's where we use it 1:02:15.320 --> 1:02:19.200 and that's it right? Like or where does that become weird? Right? 1:02:19.240 --> 1:02:21.600 Where does especially if you actually know that person, if 1:02:21.600 --> 1:02:24.760 that's your grandmother, are you having a different reaction? 1:02:25.000 --> 1:02:27.440 How do how does it work in terms of like 1:02:27.520 --> 1:02:30.920 if somebody how does it? What's the parameters for the conversation? 1:02:31.000 --> 1:02:34.040 What happens if somebody is just sort of talking about it? 1:02:34.200 --> 1:02:38.440 If for advice in your own life? And then because 1:02:38.520 --> 1:02:40.920 what you see very quickly when the people talk to 1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:46.960 like you know, chat mots effectively, is they get attached 1:02:47.440 --> 1:02:51.000 very quickly. You mean they can become confident very quickly. 1:02:51.480 --> 1:02:55.680 So yeah, we wonder why why these By the way, 1:02:55.720 --> 1:02:58.280 we wonder why these Nigerian princes are so successful at 1:02:58.280 --> 1:03:00.600 getting money out of people, right, I mean it is 1:03:00.680 --> 1:03:05.160 it is amazing. We human beings are oddly trusting ah 1:03:05.520 --> 1:03:06.960 in isolated settings. 1:03:07.320 --> 1:03:09.360 But isn't that a good thing that we trust? Isn't 1:03:09.360 --> 1:03:10.720 that nice? Amound us? 1:03:10.960 --> 1:03:14.200 Isn't ye a take advantage of ye? 1:03:14.800 --> 1:03:16.720 Well, it's the it's that you don't want to become 1:03:17.240 --> 1:03:19.240 Why am I saying? You don't want to become too cynical? 1:03:19.600 --> 1:03:26.360 But it's not so so I can Again, it's it's 1:03:26.400 --> 1:03:29.560 interesting that you can. That's interesting. That's not that's the 1:03:29.680 --> 1:03:35.520 use I haven't really thought about. But it's bringing history alive, 1:03:36.040 --> 1:03:40.120 bringing history live and bringing and making it personal in 1:03:40.160 --> 1:03:42.959 a way that that feels to me like that's yeah, 1:03:43.040 --> 1:03:47.120 that's that's interesting. But again, how do there's so many 1:03:47.400 --> 1:03:51.360 things to navigate there and so many ways that could 1:03:53.160 --> 1:03:57.560 kind of vary into places you didn't anticipate. That's that's 1:03:57.600 --> 1:03:59.439 the sort of you see. That's this is why tech 1:03:59.480 --> 1:04:04.840 companies I think, like what you were saying. Sometimes when 1:04:04.920 --> 1:04:07.880 occasionally when I've like spoken at sort of events where 1:04:07.880 --> 1:04:10.360 there's a bit like my advice whenever I'm asked or 1:04:10.400 --> 1:04:13.920 what should tech companies do? I think employ comedy writers. 1:04:14.520 --> 1:04:19.439 It's my advice. Employ neurotic comedy writers who are going 1:04:19.480 --> 1:04:24.120 to horror writers or just dramatic writers. Employ them to 1:04:24.160 --> 1:04:26.840 sit in a room and work out the worst way 1:04:26.960 --> 1:04:27.320 what are. 1:04:27.200 --> 1:04:28.960 The worst ways that people? 1:04:29.920 --> 1:04:34.160 What was the worst that could happen? Because I think 1:04:34.280 --> 1:04:40.960 often people who people who just people who innovate in 1:04:41.000 --> 1:04:43.200 a different way, they probably have to blank that out 1:04:43.680 --> 1:04:47.280 when they're like on. Some inventors probably have to not 1:04:47.360 --> 1:04:48.360 think about that too. 1:04:48.720 --> 1:04:51.320 I think in order to push forward right the good, 1:04:51.720 --> 1:04:53.960 I always worry about this with Silicon Valley. I think 1:04:54.040 --> 1:04:58.040 right now there is a movement in Silicon Valley where 1:04:58.280 --> 1:05:00.200 they think we humans are standing in the way of 1:05:00.200 --> 1:05:04.600 their progress, right right where we as human beings simply 1:05:04.920 --> 1:05:06.600 you know, if we just get out of the way, right, 1:05:06.680 --> 1:05:08.560 democracy awkward. 1:05:08.800 --> 1:05:12.920 Breaks on the wonderful digital utopia that they will lusher in. 1:05:13.320 --> 1:05:16.000 If we could just shut up and lie down right, 1:05:16.080 --> 1:05:20.600 let the computery steam roller just plow all over us. 1:05:20.800 --> 1:05:22.880 That's the losing side of what the point of it 1:05:22.920 --> 1:05:24.280 all is, isn't it correct? 1:05:24.520 --> 1:05:27.320 Most of it makes us our lives better rather than 1:05:27.760 --> 1:05:29.840 essentially replacing us. But let me get one more thing, 1:05:29.920 --> 1:05:33.560 let me get you out of here. We brought back 1:05:33.600 --> 1:05:36.840 the dire Wolf, and I'll be honest with you, and 1:05:36.960 --> 1:05:38.920 that I feel like that story came out just when 1:05:38.920 --> 1:05:41.240 your season hit and there was a minute I'm like, 1:05:41.280 --> 1:05:44.040 are we making this up? Is this like sometimes like 1:05:44.360 --> 1:05:48.040 where we're headed with our abilities here and it's like, granted, 1:05:48.080 --> 1:05:51.000 this is Jurassic Park, right, this is Michael Crichton. Michael 1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:54.520 Crichton was thinking about this stuff, who I also think, 1:05:54.800 --> 1:05:58.800 weirdly is sort of underappreciated in his sort of ability 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:02.600 to sort of see some dystopian things down there. 1:06:02.680 --> 1:06:05.640 Again, it's really yes, it's really great speculative like do 1:06:05.760 --> 1:06:08.600 me like just some great sort of yeah and tied 1:06:08.640 --> 1:06:11.000 to really actually stories. 1:06:11.720 --> 1:06:13.800 But here we are with the dire warmf and you're 1:06:13.800 --> 1:06:16.400 just said there going, yeah, there's not going to be 1:06:16.400 --> 1:06:17.960 an unintended consequence to this. 1:06:19.880 --> 1:06:24.520 Geesus. I do, I think so, But it's it's you 1:06:24.560 --> 1:06:29.120 can't again. It's like I am not a Lowe. I 1:06:29.160 --> 1:06:33.680 can't embrace the I'm not the like I said, I'm 1:06:33.680 --> 1:06:39.040 probably in a worried centrist when it comes to the 1:06:39.080 --> 1:06:42.640 tech in the future, and that I am an admirer 1:06:42.720 --> 1:06:46.560 of technology, I'm a I appreciate it, I'm awestruck by it. 1:06:47.120 --> 1:06:50.560 I like it, I stear it, and I fear the 1:06:50.600 --> 1:06:55.400 consequences of us clumsily misusing it. But that's not a 1:06:55.480 --> 1:07:00.760 reason to not It's it's just really and the problem 1:07:00.800 --> 1:07:02.960 is we are we're living in it again. It's we're 1:07:03.000 --> 1:07:08.440 living through if the printing press cause all sorts of ruptures, 1:07:08.960 --> 1:07:14.160 we're living through a sort of accelerated process of that. 1:07:14.680 --> 1:07:18.959 But again, it will feel normal, is it like it's felt? 1:07:19.120 --> 1:07:22.040 How long would you say things have felt dizzyingly futuristic? 1:07:23.360 --> 1:07:25.560 On other lines, on your age, I think we're in 1:07:25.640 --> 1:07:27.640 addle age, and I think when you're yes, I would 1:07:27.680 --> 1:07:30.760 say middle age is weirdly peak wisdom, both good and bad. 1:07:30.880 --> 1:07:33.880 Right you sort of you've learned enough life lessons to 1:07:33.920 --> 1:07:36.880 know what you shouldn't be doing. But you're not yet. 1:07:37.000 --> 1:07:39.080 You haven't lost it, like you know, at some point 1:07:39.480 --> 1:07:41.400 I always want to know what age it is. Is 1:07:41.440 --> 1:07:43.520 it's seventy two? Is it seventy where you start to 1:07:44.000 --> 1:07:48.520 you no longer are sort of grounded, right, You're. 1:07:48.360 --> 1:07:49.920 Lost that you've lost that you're not have you not? 1:07:50.000 --> 1:07:52.439 Haven't got the benefit of findsight and well you haven't 1:07:52.440 --> 1:07:55.640 got the benefit of wisdom. You're you're just you're just 1:07:55.800 --> 1:07:58.680 sort of setting your ways up and. 1:07:57.920 --> 1:08:00.439 And you because you know you're you're I know you're 1:08:01.160 --> 1:08:04.120 If you were an animal, you'd already be put up 1:08:04.120 --> 1:08:06.800 to pasture. I think that's what happens, right, That's something, 1:08:07.200 --> 1:08:09.880 it's something there you get. 1:08:10.200 --> 1:08:11.920 There's a day you wake up one day. 1:08:12.000 --> 1:08:15.040 Yeah, that's like you right, like you know, because you 1:08:15.080 --> 1:08:15.480 know it's. 1:08:15.360 --> 1:08:18.920 Like mirror con sense, you're outlining here, it's one day, 1:08:19.040 --> 1:08:21.720 it's like you you get. But if you actually know 1:08:21.800 --> 1:08:23.760 what day you. 1:08:23.960 --> 1:08:25.960 But if you know the day, like I always say, 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:27.920 at what point am I going to want to go 1:08:27.960 --> 1:08:30.400 to the airport four hours in advance? Like my mother 1:08:31.080 --> 1:08:34.800 never was that person and then suddenly she's she's listening. Now, 1:08:34.800 --> 1:08:36.720 I'm sure, Mom, I love you, but you always want 1:08:36.720 --> 1:08:39.320 to be at the airport way too long. Why you 1:08:39.360 --> 1:08:42.360 want to sit there so long? But I assume when 1:08:42.479 --> 1:08:44.920 I'm seventy or so, I'm going to be worried about 1:08:44.920 --> 1:08:45.280 that too. 1:08:46.240 --> 1:08:49.240 I you know what, I've always been. I am that person, 1:08:49.280 --> 1:08:50.920 and I've always been that. I'm the person who has 1:08:50.960 --> 1:08:53.360 to get to the airport really really early. 1:08:53.560 --> 1:08:56.680 Oh, I'm like, I'm afraid of having any downtime at 1:08:56.680 --> 1:08:58.200 the airport. I think I'm wasting time. 1:08:58.760 --> 1:09:01.800 No you're not, No, because no, because well, I think 1:09:01.800 --> 1:09:04.040 it's because I used to be a really nervous flyer 1:09:04.080 --> 1:09:06.000 and it was the one to me. So I think 1:09:06.000 --> 1:09:07.600 it's that it's a control. 1:09:07.560 --> 1:09:09.720 The acclimator. You needed to get acclimated. 1:09:09.800 --> 1:09:12.840 Yeah, one, I wanted to, yes, exactly, so I needed 1:09:12.880 --> 1:09:16.160 to feel like it wasn't suddenly sprung on me that 1:09:16.160 --> 1:09:19.800 I had to run and catch a plane. But no, 1:09:19.880 --> 1:09:24.920 So I again, I think that it's things. It feels 1:09:24.960 --> 1:09:26.840 like they're sort of Disney and pace of change, and 1:09:26.840 --> 1:09:30.519 that's incredibly destabilizing that I have no idea how it's 1:09:30.560 --> 1:09:32.960 going to pan out. But yes, my kids, I've got 1:09:32.960 --> 1:09:35.040 a thirteen year old and an eleven year old, both boys, 1:09:35.120 --> 1:09:37.680 and they it's all normal to all of this in 1:09:37.720 --> 1:09:39.400 their stride. Yeah, they totally like. 1:09:39.760 --> 1:09:42.639 Minor eighteen and twenty one, and it's you know, it's 1:09:42.680 --> 1:09:45.800 all very normal. And I look at some of this stuff, going, boy, 1:09:45.840 --> 1:09:49.280 this is abnormal. But they don't know my normal. You know, 1:09:49.360 --> 1:09:52.000 they didn't know this stuff. You know, they didn't know 1:09:52.040 --> 1:09:55.240 the fax machine. You know whatever it is, you know, yeah. 1:09:54.840 --> 1:09:58.120 So they'll be much better at you hope. Well, those 1:09:58.120 --> 1:10:00.240 are the things so obviously, because the next is that 1:10:00.280 --> 1:10:03.479 the next thing, apart from AI coming to take all 1:10:03.479 --> 1:10:08.400 odd jobs or make a super bad like, is you know, 1:10:08.760 --> 1:10:12.479 a sort of huge wave of sort of misinformation in 1:10:13.520 --> 1:10:17.639 video just dividing us even more than we are already 1:10:17.720 --> 1:10:20.800 where there's already competing versions of reality and those are 1:10:20.800 --> 1:10:24.320 both now going to have twenty four hour visuals to 1:10:24.840 --> 1:10:27.240 go with them. That would you blame places? 1:10:27.720 --> 1:10:30.800 Who's who that actor here? Is it political? Is it 1:10:30.840 --> 1:10:34.479 political leaders? Or textieos? Like? Who's who's to blame for 1:10:34.560 --> 1:10:37.000 this moment we're living in where it's been exploited like 1:10:37.040 --> 1:10:39.840 this the exploiters or the ones that make the tool 1:10:39.960 --> 1:10:41.120 for the exploitation. 1:10:41.680 --> 1:10:44.040 Is it all right to blame everyone? Or bug? 1:10:44.120 --> 1:10:44.640 I think it is? 1:10:44.960 --> 1:10:47.760 I think it's it's not, because again it wouldn't it's 1:10:48.200 --> 1:10:50.920 it's But again, will that mean that the next generation? 1:10:52.160 --> 1:10:54.559 Will it mean just that? What happens when? Because at 1:10:54.560 --> 1:10:57.479 the same time, also you're seeing videos where you know, 1:10:57.640 --> 1:11:00.320 someone could you could see a video where somebody turned 1:11:00.320 --> 1:11:02.680 into as to get your maples sort of thing, So 1:11:02.720 --> 1:11:05.439 you know that things can be like it can be 1:11:05.479 --> 1:11:09.080 surreal and strange but completely photographically convincing. But you know 1:11:09.160 --> 1:11:12.840 it couldn't have so. Well, the next generation just learned 1:11:12.880 --> 1:11:14.559 to not trust anything at all. 1:11:14.600 --> 1:11:16.479 Well, that's my great fear, is that everybody's going to 1:11:16.520 --> 1:11:18.120 turn it. You know, if you ever talk to a 1:11:18.200 --> 1:11:21.880 Russian in Moscow, they'll say, I don't know what to believe. 1:11:22.240 --> 1:11:24.559 People that live in Moscow don't believe anything, right, because 1:11:24.880 --> 1:11:27.200 they've been so and in some ways they know this 1:11:27.320 --> 1:11:30.320 though they're educated to know enough to know, Oh yeah, 1:11:30.760 --> 1:11:33.160 you know, I don't trust anything I read. So I 1:11:33.200 --> 1:11:38.760 get that, and I worry a I don't know. And 1:11:38.840 --> 1:11:40.920 my great fear of AI is that we can actually 1:11:41.000 --> 1:11:44.720 erase history. Now you know, there was there was supposedly 1:11:44.880 --> 1:11:48.600 a bunch of Russian propagandas who were trying to infiltrate 1:11:48.680 --> 1:11:55.240 these chatbots to sort of uh uh replace Ukrainian to 1:11:55.360 --> 1:11:58.200 try to essentially alter the history of Russia's relationship with 1:11:58.320 --> 1:12:01.840 Ukraine in history, and then you create it over time. 1:12:02.920 --> 1:12:06.639 You know, if you right, is it right? Is it right? 1:12:07.080 --> 1:12:10.679 You can actually erase historical events, right, And it's whether 1:12:10.720 --> 1:12:14.719 that you know, that's the Holocaust whether that's something something 1:12:14.760 --> 1:12:19.280 else that that that distill. Yeah, that's terrifying. 1:12:19.760 --> 1:12:25.120 That's terrifying. And I don't know, I don't know how 1:12:25.120 --> 1:12:28.479 that isn't I hate to say lightly, but I don't 1:12:28.520 --> 1:12:29.080 know how that. 1:12:29.840 --> 1:12:33.040 Well, if you have the Chinese government controls information, so 1:12:33.120 --> 1:12:36.080 you know there, you know, there's no Tanum and Square, 1:12:36.200 --> 1:12:38.040 there's no history of what happened to Tianam and Square. 1:12:38.040 --> 1:12:40.479 If you live in China, well, and there's already a lot. 1:12:40.360 --> 1:12:42.960 Of people who believe we're already there and then everything 1:12:43.000 --> 1:12:45.639 is a lie and then every like so so yeah, 1:12:45.720 --> 1:12:49.000 I don't uh no, that worries me. If there's no 1:12:49.880 --> 1:12:55.760 consensus on what is real or has been real, how 1:12:55.800 --> 1:12:59.880 do we cope with giant cinmate problems that are going 1:12:59.920 --> 1:13:01.280 to them all the way? How do we cope with 1:13:01.760 --> 1:13:06.519 when there's a big when a big problem. You know, I'm, 1:13:07.120 --> 1:13:09.280 like I said, I'm an anxious sort of I could 1:13:09.280 --> 1:13:12.840 be an anxious apocalyptic warrior. When the pandemic happened, I 1:13:12.880 --> 1:13:18.960 was sort of comparatively calm because I thought we were 1:13:18.960 --> 1:13:20.559 handling it quite well well. 1:13:21.120 --> 1:13:24.080 Like I thank you for saying that. I think that too. 1:13:24.160 --> 1:13:25.800 I know we all look back and there was lots 1:13:25.800 --> 1:13:28.559 of COVID. It wasn't it wasn't like it was a laugh, 1:13:28.680 --> 1:13:32.360 but it was. Yeah, but the globe, I mean, here's this, 1:13:32.720 --> 1:13:36.800 here's this event that all nine billion people on this 1:13:36.880 --> 1:13:42.360 planet experienced together. And that's something that's unusual if you 1:13:42.360 --> 1:13:46.040 think about where we all, you know, everybody had had 1:13:46.080 --> 1:13:48.800 experienced this in some way, whether you live in a 1:13:49.000 --> 1:13:55.280 very uh in a very sort of uh frankly urban life, 1:13:55.680 --> 1:14:00.559 rural life, reclusive life, it didn't matter, right, everybody had 1:14:00.600 --> 1:14:01.160 to deal with this. 1:14:01.680 --> 1:14:04.400 Well, we may we all had a reclusive life, right 1:14:04.520 --> 1:14:05.360 we you. 1:14:05.240 --> 1:14:09.439 Know, we proved it could have been total breakdown of 1:14:09.520 --> 1:14:12.679 society and we didn't have that, and exact we should 1:14:12.680 --> 1:14:13.920 be happy with ourselves for that. 1:14:14.320 --> 1:14:17.720 It was. It was that side of things, was that 1:14:17.760 --> 1:14:21.800 we were we were all worried and we all you know, 1:14:21.960 --> 1:14:27.760 you generally speaking, people were it felt looking out for 1:14:27.760 --> 1:14:30.400 each other. You had the young staying indoors to protect 1:14:30.400 --> 1:14:32.080 the elderly. You had sort of you know, you had 1:14:32.200 --> 1:14:33.080 actually more. 1:14:33.400 --> 1:14:36.000 And there was some creaky thus all about it, and yeah, 1:14:36.040 --> 1:14:38.839 but they didn't like take matters into their own hands. 1:14:39.439 --> 1:14:42.880 You know, Yes, we had bad arguments and stuff, but 1:14:42.960 --> 1:14:44.640 within a civilized guardrail. 1:14:44.920 --> 1:14:48.519 There's more arguments about it now, it's it's it's but 1:14:48.560 --> 1:14:50.839 it's it's, it's it's. 1:14:50.800 --> 1:14:53.479 So in a way, you're right, it's hopeful that it 1:14:53.600 --> 1:14:54.519 was a hopeful response. 1:14:54.560 --> 1:14:56.240 In a way, it was sort of like it wasn't 1:14:56.280 --> 1:14:59.080 that it wasn't you know what I mean, We we 1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:04.200 we So you sort of hope that we when faced 1:15:04.320 --> 1:15:06.800 because we are result Again, I'm not the voice of optimism, 1:15:06.800 --> 1:15:11.760 but you know, we are pretty incredible creatures. We do. 1:15:12.080 --> 1:15:17.200 I think we're so resilient, were good, and so so you. 1:15:17.240 --> 1:15:21.799 So we're just going to have to navigate that wild 1:15:21.920 --> 1:15:26.759 and so so how we I don't know how we counter, 1:15:28.560 --> 1:15:31.160 how we counter a sort of cynical destruction of all 1:15:31.280 --> 1:15:34.640 sort of consensus on what reality is. I don't I 1:15:34.640 --> 1:15:36.760 don't know. You sort of have to hope that we 1:15:36.800 --> 1:15:41.280 won't just end up tearing each other's flesh and fighting 1:15:41.280 --> 1:15:42.960 in the streets sort of thing. You have to hope 1:15:42.960 --> 1:15:46.679 that And again, we did we didn't do we could 1:15:46.680 --> 1:15:49.439 have done. The pandemic could have been a get load 1:15:49.560 --> 1:15:53.719 worse than we could have behaved in a much more 1:15:54.360 --> 1:15:55.040 venal way. 1:15:55.920 --> 1:15:59.320 Charlie, I have to say, I'm so happy you have 1:15:59.439 --> 1:16:04.120 this uptim stick streaking you. I was worried or I 1:16:04.200 --> 1:16:04.639 just got. 1:16:04.520 --> 1:16:08.360 To no, I think we don't get me wrong. I like, 1:16:08.680 --> 1:16:14.439 I can absolutely have total moments of complete and utter 1:16:14.520 --> 1:16:16.880 staring into the abyss sort of two and wait awake 1:16:16.920 --> 1:16:19.840 at four am, you know, the sort of carnival of 1:16:19.920 --> 1:16:22.520 horrible thoughts going through your head, and you worry desperately 1:16:22.560 --> 1:16:25.160 about your children, and you worry desperately about the future 1:16:25.160 --> 1:16:28.439 and where are things going. So I can absolutely do 1:16:28.520 --> 1:16:32.360 all of that. And and oddly the more of us 1:16:32.360 --> 1:16:34.200 who are worried, the better. 1:16:35.080 --> 1:16:36.679 I agree. That was agree. 1:16:36.920 --> 1:16:38.280 I think. I think that was the thing with the 1:16:38.320 --> 1:16:41.880 pandemic that really struck me was I was. I was. 1:16:41.960 --> 1:16:43.640 I'm one of these people who as soon as the 1:16:43.680 --> 1:16:46.439 first reports I remember I was on holiday over Christmas 1:16:46.479 --> 1:16:49.280 when that happened. There were reports of like the system, there's. 1:16:49.160 --> 1:16:51.080 There's something going around, something. 1:16:50.840 --> 1:16:54.240 On as a virus, something respiratory illness in China and 1:16:54.320 --> 1:16:56.680 blah blah blah. And I thought, that's going to come in, 1:16:56.760 --> 1:16:58.519 that's going to sweep. That's good, We're going to get there. 1:16:58.600 --> 1:17:01.280 I don't like the look at that, and I was 1:17:01.280 --> 1:17:03.920 really worried about it. At the point when everyone was 1:17:03.960 --> 1:17:08.360 worried about it, I can kind of the dread in 1:17:08.479 --> 1:17:11.479 me drops a little, because there's nothing more scary than 1:17:11.520 --> 1:17:14.360 thinking everyone else is being blather and complacent about something 1:17:14.840 --> 1:17:17.439 that's worrying you. It's the wasp, but the picnic that 1:17:17.560 --> 1:17:20.040 no one else is. I'm the one who can't relax. 1:17:20.080 --> 1:17:22.439 If there's one wasp of the picnic, and if everyone's 1:17:22.479 --> 1:17:25.200 worried about the wasp, you move the bloody picnic blanket 1:17:25.280 --> 1:17:29.360 somewhere else, or or or someone catches it in a glass, 1:17:30.800 --> 1:17:34.000 And so you kind of have to hope that its 1:17:34.000 --> 1:17:38.080 survival instinct will realize that we need more of us, 1:17:38.720 --> 1:17:41.560 really as many of us as possible to survive, and 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:44.040 that I don't know, don't I don't know, I don't know. 1:17:45.640 --> 1:17:48.720 Are you Are you going to say? Is this is 1:17:48.760 --> 1:17:51.520 this ever stop in your head? Do you think you'll always. 1:17:51.280 --> 1:17:57.240 Be the show or the I would I'd like to 1:17:57.240 --> 1:18:00.960 think it's something that can keep going, can keep morphing, 1:18:01.040 --> 1:18:05.120 can keep We've done we keep you know, I keep changing. 1:18:06.360 --> 1:18:08.960 I keep doing different types of episodes. We've done a 1:18:08.960 --> 1:18:11.559 sequel for the first time, we've done an interactive one. 1:18:11.600 --> 1:18:15.080 A few years ago. You can do a feature length 1:18:15.120 --> 1:18:18.200 ones and short ones. So I kind of think it's 1:18:18.200 --> 1:18:22.240 something that can be oddly, that can be very reactive 1:18:22.439 --> 1:18:28.639 to what's going on. It's hopefully it's a weird It's 1:18:28.880 --> 1:18:30.639 like I said, it's a very odd show to do. 1:18:30.800 --> 1:18:32.600 I'm aware that also. It's a bit like being in 1:18:32.640 --> 1:18:35.080 a band where we did a load of punk singles 1:18:35.080 --> 1:18:37.479 early on, and so you get some sort of fans 1:18:37.479 --> 1:18:39.519 who just want you to do punk singles, but we 1:18:39.600 --> 1:18:41.880 also did some that are a bit more like big 1:18:42.000 --> 1:18:44.400 love ballads or something that we're also really popular, and 1:18:44.439 --> 1:18:47.880 so now you're kind of trying to so I have 1:18:47.960 --> 1:18:50.800 to not I think my mental trick is to not 1:18:50.920 --> 1:18:54.000 think too much about what fans of the show expect 1:18:54.040 --> 1:18:55.920 and just write and write one. 1:18:56.560 --> 1:18:59.000 That audience audience capture. Right, you have to be worried 1:19:00.080 --> 1:19:02.320 that you're worried that are you making something to please 1:19:02.360 --> 1:19:05.880 the audience versus or you making something to advalance your mind, 1:19:05.960 --> 1:19:06.360 your thought. 1:19:06.520 --> 1:19:09.080 We have we have because we because it's we don't 1:19:09.080 --> 1:19:11.280 tend to have the same characters from episode to episode. 1:19:11.320 --> 1:19:13.360 We have less of that and that people don't like. 1:19:13.640 --> 1:19:17.400 Usually our characters are absolutely broken by the time the 1:19:17.479 --> 1:19:22.519 credits roll, so people don't quite it's a different dynamic, 1:19:22.560 --> 1:19:24.320 I guess from on a big you know, like Game 1:19:24.360 --> 1:19:28.559 of Thrones or or you know, like some huge show. 1:19:28.680 --> 1:19:30.639 So it just sounds like you'll always have an ambition 1:19:30.720 --> 1:19:33.600 to keep this going, and they'll always be and certainly. 1:19:33.320 --> 1:19:35.640 As long as people well, as long as that I 1:19:35.680 --> 1:19:37.880 can keep coming up with ideas and people keep wanting 1:19:37.880 --> 1:19:41.240 to look at them, and as long as I don't 1:19:41.280 --> 1:19:44.120 get out competed by some AI, as long as they're 1:19:44.120 --> 1:19:47.759 not just staring into some folographic box in a few years, 1:19:47.800 --> 1:19:50.640 like just shouting and it's just staring at them and 1:19:50.640 --> 1:19:54.040 looking at their facial expression and thinking, here's an image 1:19:54.040 --> 1:19:55.720 you'll like to see for the next two seconds. And 1:19:55.760 --> 1:19:59.679 they're just sort of seeing some kind of constant, deep fake, 1:20:00.040 --> 1:20:04.040 three dimensional TikTok that's being blasted at them, which is 1:20:04.040 --> 1:20:07.360 probably ninety five percent certain to happen. As long as. 1:20:08.680 --> 1:20:11.240 I'm worried, you're just created. I'm worried somebody is going 1:20:11.280 --> 1:20:14.240 to start dumb dumbs really soon. I mean, in some ways, 1:20:14.680 --> 1:20:16.679 only fans is kind of like that. 1:20:17.720 --> 1:20:19.880 Again, we did this thing. We did this thing, yeah, 1:20:20.000 --> 1:20:23.440 in the in the Common People episode, like Chris O'Dowd's 1:20:23.479 --> 1:20:26.080 character Mike has to pay He just to try and 1:20:26.080 --> 1:20:29.160 pay for the subscription by kind of debasing himself on 1:20:29.160 --> 1:20:32.920 this online platform. Within Again, I didn't realize that there 1:20:32.960 --> 1:20:35.439 was as soon as the episode came out at a 1:20:35.479 --> 1:20:38.280 bunch of people went, oh, that's this. Yeah, I can't 1:20:38.320 --> 1:20:39.920 remember what it was called. That's this thing where people 1:20:39.920 --> 1:20:42.840 were doing that for sort of bitcoin or something. And 1:20:43.560 --> 1:20:45.120 so nothing new under the sun. 1:20:46.840 --> 1:20:49.439 There's no new ideas. There's just better packaged ones. Right. 1:20:50.520 --> 1:20:52.839 That's very cynical but probably accurate. 1:20:54.200 --> 1:20:57.040 That's that's what chat TPT will eventually tease it. Hey, 1:20:57.120 --> 1:21:00.479 without the pandemic, we don't specialize in doing these credible 1:21:00.960 --> 1:21:04.479 zoom telecast now oh yeah, half of what it is 1:21:04.560 --> 1:21:06.880 right like, we will look back at this moment it 1:21:07.000 --> 1:21:08.160 actually created. 1:21:08.160 --> 1:21:10.759 It was a moonshot. Yes, it was like a moonshot, 1:21:10.880 --> 1:21:13.600 but it was like having to come up with ballpoint pains. 1:21:13.560 --> 1:21:14.680 And everybody had a come up. 1:21:14.840 --> 1:21:19.439 They astaurants need to be right in space. So yeah, 1:21:19.600 --> 1:21:23.320 and it made Yeah, it made all sorts of things. 1:21:23.360 --> 1:21:25.439 It was a big but also I don't think we 1:21:25.520 --> 1:21:28.719 still unpacked actually psychologically what it did to us all, oh. 1:21:28.880 --> 1:21:33.360 Well, look, I you know when we see we're seeing 1:21:33.360 --> 1:21:35.920 in schools with kids. I mean, look, there's no one 1:21:36.040 --> 1:21:39.599 saying we're saying it was great. No, no, I don't 1:21:39.640 --> 1:21:41.240 you know. I know there was bad, but it was 1:21:41.280 --> 1:21:44.320 sort of like, hey, the more important thing is we 1:21:44.360 --> 1:21:44.880 adapt it. 1:21:45.640 --> 1:21:45.800 Right. 1:21:45.960 --> 1:21:48.799 We adapted, we survived, and we ought to at least 1:21:49.400 --> 1:21:51.640 not sell ourselves short on that. 1:21:52.240 --> 1:21:57.000 No, we're a bit better than again. It's like the 1:21:57.000 --> 1:22:01.600 thing that struck me it was how the number of 1:22:01.600 --> 1:22:04.000 times you'd see it. And I've written a zombie movie 1:22:04.040 --> 1:22:07.160 where it's like, you know, within society collapses within twenty 1:22:07.200 --> 1:22:12.000 minutes of this sort of calarity, and that isn't what happened, 1:22:12.479 --> 1:22:15.839 like in that in the pandemic scenario, that isn't what happened. 1:22:16.200 --> 1:22:19.640 We were out in Britain, we were out banging saucepans 1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:24.240 every Thursday in support of the NHS, although I did 1:22:24.280 --> 1:22:26.599 read somebody was saying I think that was actually us 1:22:26.640 --> 1:22:28.920 banging the saucepans to sort of let other people know 1:22:28.960 --> 1:22:32.600 we were still there, which made me quite sad what 1:22:32.720 --> 1:22:34.679 I read that it was probably a more accurate read. 1:22:35.360 --> 1:22:38.400 Charlie, I will have You've been very generous with your time. 1:22:39.040 --> 1:22:42.599 Black Mirror is just a you know, it's I don't 1:22:42.600 --> 1:22:44.680 think there's any aid could have come up with. This 1:22:44.760 --> 1:22:46.920 is a reminder that it takes, yes, it takes a 1:22:47.040 --> 1:22:48.960 creative brain to come up with ideas. 1:22:49.200 --> 1:22:52.040 I hope, So, I hope we'll always want messy humans 1:22:52.040 --> 1:22:55.640 in our yes creative soup. I know if that analogy 1:22:55.760 --> 1:22:57.360 makes sense, but that's what I've said. 1:22:57.880 --> 1:23:02.519 Well, it's brilliant and you mean to Whether you mean 1:23:02.600 --> 1:23:05.240 to have us think in dystopian ways or not, the 1:23:05.360 --> 1:23:08.599 point is you make everybody think, and that's awesome. That matters. 1:23:08.840 --> 1:23:11.000 That's all to me. That matters. You're making us think. 1:23:11.920 --> 1:23:15.320 Good. Thank you very much, Thank you sir. That's very kind. 1:23:15.640 --> 1:23:17.280 Well there you go. We got to end on an 1:23:17.360 --> 1:23:21.120 upbeat note. Little hope in an anas all right, thank you, 1:23:21.400 --> 1:23:24.000 Thank you, a pleasure, great to talk with you. Thank you. 1:23:24.040 --> 1:23:33.920 Trouble So. I told you you'd enjoy that interview with 1:23:34.000 --> 1:23:38.680 Charlie Brooker. He is fascinating. That mind is racing. And 1:23:39.520 --> 1:23:43.080 I don't know if you had RoboCop and twilight Zone. 1:23:43.080 --> 1:23:45.160 I'm sure many of you assumed twilight Zone and rob 1:23:45.200 --> 1:23:48.639 Serling Rod Sterling was Serling was one of his one 1:23:48.640 --> 1:23:52.840 of his inspirations. But you bet you didn't see RoboCop coming, 1:23:53.160 --> 1:23:55.280 And the minute he said it, I knew exactly what 1:23:55.320 --> 1:23:58.799 he meant. Go check it out. The first RoboCop was 1:23:58.800 --> 1:24:01.439 was sort of more innovative than I think people gave 1:24:01.479 --> 1:24:03.400 it credit for at the time. So anyway, it was 1:24:03.439 --> 1:24:06.559 just I learned a lot, and frankly, it only makes 1:24:06.560 --> 1:24:09.920 me enjoy the show even more. I hope you got 1:24:09.960 --> 1:24:12.680 a lot out of it too. All right, let's do 1:24:12.720 --> 1:24:19.640 a little last Chuck as Chuck. All right, here's my 1:24:19.760 --> 1:24:24.160 first question. This one comes from Chaz Latore and he 1:24:24.200 --> 1:24:26.959 writes this, You advocate news in every small town community. 1:24:27.280 --> 1:24:29.920 That's interesting, But if news was generated locally, wouldn't it 1:24:29.960 --> 1:24:31.919 just turned into an echo chamber for the local community. 1:24:32.040 --> 1:24:34.000 For example, I come from a very left leaning town 1:24:34.040 --> 1:24:37.080 in Pennsylvania. Wouldn't their news cast just be an echo 1:24:37.160 --> 1:24:39.439 chamber where the word Trump would never even make it 1:24:39.439 --> 1:24:41.240 to a news broadcast. It seems like it would just 1:24:41.280 --> 1:24:43.519 be a lot of local Fox news channels that echo 1:24:43.560 --> 1:24:45.640 what the local community wants to hear. I would think 1:24:45.680 --> 1:24:48.040 a broader national broadcast would be more balanced. What am 1:24:48.040 --> 1:24:51.639 I missing here? Well, there is no broad cast balance 1:24:51.720 --> 1:24:55.120 right as we know. If you're looking for national news, 1:24:55.760 --> 1:24:59.040 you're going to go and you're looking for news, you're 1:24:59.040 --> 1:25:01.280 going to go where you have a where you share 1:25:01.320 --> 1:25:06.760 some intellectual whether it's some intellectual agreement. What I'm advocating 1:25:07.040 --> 1:25:11.120 is not local versions of Fox or MSNBC. That is 1:25:11.200 --> 1:25:14.400 not what I'm advocating. What I'm advocating is that we 1:25:14.479 --> 1:25:17.760 basically need a different you know, what local news was 1:25:17.920 --> 1:25:20.719 at its best, and I understand that some people probably 1:25:22.080 --> 1:25:24.639 you know, it's it's been twenty five years since we've 1:25:24.760 --> 1:25:28.120 had a healthy local news ecosystem. Arguably, so some of 1:25:28.160 --> 1:25:30.800 you may not have been around or didn't fully appreciate it. 1:25:30.840 --> 1:25:37.240 But what I would say is we need more service journalism, 1:25:37.320 --> 1:25:41.440 and local journalism was more in service of the community 1:25:42.160 --> 1:25:45.840 than national journalism. National journalism is about essentially, you know, 1:25:45.880 --> 1:25:49.280 helping you be a citizen, your civics, but local journalism 1:25:49.600 --> 1:25:51.799 at its best is about helping you live your life. 1:25:51.880 --> 1:25:55.080 And that's what I mean. What we need is revitalize 1:25:55.080 --> 1:26:00.559 community journalism that is focused more on helping you live 1:26:00.560 --> 1:26:02.479 your life, focused on how to save you money at 1:26:02.479 --> 1:26:06.320 the grocery store, how to save you money at very 1:26:06.360 --> 1:26:09.240 you know, uh, to take your kids out to eat, 1:26:09.479 --> 1:26:11.479 you know, if there's a better night of the week. 1:26:12.920 --> 1:26:19.240 It's it's being essentially almost like a community liaison. My 1:26:19.400 --> 1:26:22.360 vision for these small town and all of these community 1:26:22.400 --> 1:26:25.639 information systems is that you become the information helped ask 1:26:25.680 --> 1:26:29.120 for your community. And that could mean helping people find 1:26:29.120 --> 1:26:31.080 out when the high school game, when the high school 1:26:31.120 --> 1:26:34.280 lacrosse game starts this afternoon, helping people where to find it. 1:26:34.360 --> 1:26:36.559 I think all I want these places to be the 1:26:36.600 --> 1:26:40.400 streaming home for all of youth sports and in high 1:26:40.400 --> 1:26:42.879 school sports. This is what I believe can be the 1:26:42.920 --> 1:26:46.160 glue to bring a community together. I also see sports 1:26:46.160 --> 1:26:48.200 as a way that you can sort of cut through 1:26:48.240 --> 1:26:52.120 red and blue because most you know, a pothole isn't 1:26:52.160 --> 1:26:56.840 Republican or Democrat. It's a pothole, you know. So that's 1:26:57.160 --> 1:27:01.960 that's that's what I'm that's my belief here. That's what 1:27:02.120 --> 1:27:05.519 I know people tell me that they want whenever you ask, 1:27:05.800 --> 1:27:09.519 this is what people feel like is missing. So I 1:27:09.560 --> 1:27:11.160 am a believer a little bit in the field of 1:27:11.200 --> 1:27:14.000 dreams here. If we build it, they will come. But 1:27:14.120 --> 1:27:17.120 it needs to be Journalism that is focused on helping 1:27:17.160 --> 1:27:19.519 people live their life and as always say where's the 1:27:19.640 --> 1:27:24.040 cheap food? Give me some micro forecasting for my community 1:27:24.120 --> 1:27:25.960 versus the one right next door when it comes to 1:27:26.000 --> 1:27:29.479 the weather, access to all the important youth and local 1:27:29.520 --> 1:27:33.680 sports that I that I care about, and oh, by 1:27:33.680 --> 1:27:37.479 the way, who's corrupted my city council? And so. But 1:27:37.560 --> 1:27:40.960 it's actually that part is the end part of things, right. 1:27:41.360 --> 1:27:43.599 You know, people who want to be informed are always 1:27:43.600 --> 1:27:46.680 going to get informed. It's about everybody else in the community. 1:27:46.840 --> 1:27:48.439 Those are folks that are just trying to get by, 1:27:48.560 --> 1:27:52.320 get live their life. Either they're not news junkies, or 1:27:52.439 --> 1:27:54.920 they've got other things in their life that take priority, 1:27:54.960 --> 1:27:58.920 like making a living, educating their kids, et cetera. How 1:27:58.960 --> 1:28:03.080 about coverage for that? Right, that's the missing piece of 1:28:03.120 --> 1:28:06.920 this is that it's not about creating more local political news, 1:28:06.960 --> 1:28:10.519 although I hope we get that too, but I'm starting 1:28:11.720 --> 1:28:14.040 in the places where I know there's collective agreement and 1:28:14.080 --> 1:28:17.040 when I know there's collective need. Jack, I appreciate the 1:28:17.120 --> 1:28:22.120 question and love the skepticism because it gave me a 1:28:22.200 --> 1:28:25.320 chance to push back. This comes from Josh in Ohio 1:28:27.360 --> 1:28:31.240 and Josh Wrights You've talked a lot about the possibility 1:28:31.240 --> 1:28:33.720 of the Republican Party splitting between more traditional Republicans and 1:28:33.720 --> 1:28:35.960 mega Republicans. If that were to happen, who would be 1:28:36.000 --> 1:28:37.960 in the traditional wing? It seems like MAGA is completely 1:28:37.960 --> 1:28:40.519 taken over the party, So name some names. Look, I 1:28:40.560 --> 1:28:43.280 think MAGA has taken over the sort of the organizational 1:28:43.320 --> 1:28:46.040 structure of the party, There's no doubt about it. But 1:28:46.160 --> 1:28:48.799 I mean, look, the people that are an elective office 1:28:48.800 --> 1:28:52.479 who are clearly not MAGA Republicans but essentially are trying 1:28:52.520 --> 1:28:55.360 to be MAGA adjacent, right, And I think many of 1:28:55.360 --> 1:28:57.840 the MAGA adjacent folks would prefer to be in the 1:28:57.880 --> 1:29:01.759 pre Donald Trump party, people like Tom Cotton. That's people 1:29:01.760 --> 1:29:06.679 like Tom Tillis, Bill Cassidy, Lisa Murkowski for sure, right, Romney, 1:29:07.920 --> 1:29:11.800 Chris Sununu. So I think it, you know, to me, 1:29:12.320 --> 1:29:16.559 you you know, I might even say Lindsay Graham, you know, 1:29:16.640 --> 1:29:18.360 although I think he's a little more finger in the 1:29:18.400 --> 1:29:21.960 wind of where our South Carolina Republican's going to go 1:29:22.040 --> 1:29:24.760 is where he's going to go. But and I think 1:29:24.760 --> 1:29:27.320 some of these Republicans that have sort of gone back 1:29:27.320 --> 1:29:29.560 and forth with that, But I think there really is 1:29:29.600 --> 1:29:33.639 a question about is MAGA bigger than Trump? Right? That's 1:29:33.720 --> 1:29:36.360 still the basic question. Is it bigger than Trump or not? 1:29:37.200 --> 1:29:42.200 And does a Trump junior brand hold MAGA together and 1:29:42.280 --> 1:29:45.639 keep it on its I don't know, right, I think 1:29:45.680 --> 1:29:48.479 that's an open question and one we're going to find 1:29:48.520 --> 1:29:52.599 out sooner rather than later. But I think it's I think, 1:29:52.800 --> 1:29:56.760 you know, really it does split along the you know, 1:29:56.880 --> 1:30:01.440 do you believe in the in a sort of internationalist 1:30:01.520 --> 1:30:05.519 view that ultimately America is an example to set that 1:30:05.520 --> 1:30:10.040 we ought to spread our ideals of freedom, free trade, democracy, 1:30:10.120 --> 1:30:13.200 things like that, a free market, that that is something 1:30:13.400 --> 1:30:15.920 we should spread around the world, which I think is 1:30:16.640 --> 1:30:19.519 in part some of the free market intellectual thinking in 1:30:19.560 --> 1:30:22.320 this sort of more traditional sense of the Republican Party. 1:30:23.760 --> 1:30:26.160 I do think that where there is alignment is in 1:30:26.200 --> 1:30:29.080 cultural conservatism. So I think that that will continue to 1:30:29.080 --> 1:30:33.840 be the through line that keeps this coalition together. But 1:30:34.160 --> 1:30:35.720 if you're asking me to name names, those are the 1:30:35.760 --> 1:30:38.960 names I would go to, all right. This one comes 1:30:38.960 --> 1:30:42.160 from Judith Workman. Her question, is it possible that the 1:30:42.240 --> 1:30:43.840 roller coaster that we have been on for the last 1:30:43.840 --> 1:30:46.760 few days, meaning the stock market, be simply a way 1:30:46.800 --> 1:30:48.800 to manipulate the economy for Trump and others in the 1:30:48.840 --> 1:30:50.839 regime to bring the market down so they can purchase 1:30:50.840 --> 1:30:53.439 more stocks, etc. And then bring the market back up 1:30:53.479 --> 1:30:57.720 to increase their personal Well, well, Judith, look, you're not 1:30:57.760 --> 1:31:00.519 the only person who thinks this. There's no doubt there 1:31:00.520 --> 1:31:04.320 are people that are making money manipulating you know, who 1:31:04.400 --> 1:31:08.960 know who may have an insider knowledge of where things 1:31:09.000 --> 1:31:12.479 are going. But no, I don't think there is a 1:31:12.560 --> 1:31:15.559 large chunk of people trying to do that, you know. 1:31:15.640 --> 1:31:18.479 I do think there's the crypto community, particularly in the 1:31:18.560 --> 1:31:21.479 in the twenty four election. I think there's quite a 1:31:21.479 --> 1:31:23.680 few people that are invest that are long on some 1:31:23.840 --> 1:31:28.400 crypto investments, that are desperately hoping that they have value 1:31:28.600 --> 1:31:31.120 and they're worried that it won't have value and are 1:31:31.200 --> 1:31:34.800 counting on Donald Trump to give them value. But I'm 1:31:34.840 --> 1:31:38.320 not sure I'm there on the full fledged stock market 1:31:38.320 --> 1:31:44.879 manipulation because you know it, perhaps there's some short term traders, 1:31:45.120 --> 1:31:47.880 and if we had a more functioning SEC, maybe there'd 1:31:47.880 --> 1:31:51.519 be some legitimate investigations into this, But sadly, we don't 1:31:51.560 --> 1:31:54.639 have a an SEC that is truly independent right now 1:31:55.040 --> 1:31:59.280 that I think should be looking at these things, you know, 1:31:59.400 --> 1:32:02.880 especially in the world of Donald Trump, who you know, 1:32:02.960 --> 1:32:06.280 he everybody, everybody sort of has the combination. I always 1:32:06.360 --> 1:32:11.639 joke Donald Trump is kind of like that Elaine character 1:32:11.680 --> 1:32:14.000 in Seinfeld when it comes to the vault. If you 1:32:14.040 --> 1:32:17.000 remember that, and Jerry Seinfeld used to say, Oh, everybody's 1:32:17.000 --> 1:32:19.080 got the combination. It was Hennessy, you know. I think 1:32:19.120 --> 1:32:21.840 that was the brand of liquor that all of a 1:32:21.880 --> 1:32:25.040 sudden she'd tell you everything she had. You know, Donald Trump, 1:32:25.240 --> 1:32:27.759 he's made it clear if you want inside her access, 1:32:27.760 --> 1:32:29.800 pay two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and come be 1:32:29.840 --> 1:32:32.080 a member of mar Lago or come do this with 1:32:32.160 --> 1:32:35.280 crypto like, there is always access to him, and you 1:32:35.439 --> 1:32:38.559 might accidentally get a tip that can help you. But 1:32:38.680 --> 1:32:42.320 sometimes Trump's saying stuff that he wants to happen and 1:32:42.360 --> 1:32:45.080 it doesn't happen. And sometimes he says stuff that does 1:32:45.120 --> 1:32:47.640 happen and you could have made money on it. But 1:32:47.720 --> 1:32:50.160 there are so many people that get that have bought 1:32:50.240 --> 1:32:53.040 access to get close to him at his clubs in particular, 1:32:54.320 --> 1:32:57.639 that you can't rule out that possibility. I just don't 1:32:57.680 --> 1:33:01.040 think it's a full organized barras for what it's worth 1:33:01.520 --> 1:33:05.000 all right. So with that, I think I'm gonna wrap 1:33:05.080 --> 1:33:08.840 up this this episode. Hope you enjoy the enjoyed the week. 1:33:09.120 --> 1:33:11.640 If you haven't caught up on previous episodes, please do 1:33:11.760 --> 1:33:14.080 because I know we've had some issues with the automatic 1:33:14.120 --> 1:33:19.720 updating among those that subscribe to the podcast on Apple obviously, 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:22.200 even if you subscribe on Apple, come over to the 1:33:22.240 --> 1:33:25.240 YouTube channel like and subscribe there. The check podcast has 1:33:25.280 --> 1:33:28.080 a YouTube channel. You can check us out on Spotify 1:33:28.200 --> 1:33:31.880 or wherever else serves up podcasts. So with that, I'll 1:33:31.920 --> 1:33:34.760 see you next week until we upload again