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Speaker 1: Ready to go. All right, agree to you one Happy Thursday,

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Speaker 1: Happy may Day. It is what this really is. It's

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Speaker 1: the one month anniversary of the Chuck podcast. So you

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Speaker 1: know when you in content creator years one month, that's

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Speaker 1: the equivalent of five years of service these days, I

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Speaker 1: have kid, but I'm having a blast. I hope you're

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Speaker 1: enjoying the content we're creating. I'm an amazing team around

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Speaker 1: me that has been able to get me into some

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Speaker 1: social spaces that I had not been to before, including

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Speaker 1: my new and growing audience on YouTube like and subscribe.

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Speaker 1: Do I say that enough?

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Speaker 2: So?

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that Apple podcasts Spotify. By the way, I

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Speaker 1: tweeted out, we know some of you who get Apple

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Speaker 1: or you know, we're fixing that and feed issue and

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Speaker 1: that's that should be. That should be up and running

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Speaker 1: without any problems, without you having to manually refresh very soon.

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Speaker 1: But before I get to my guest, and I tell

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Speaker 1: you this is going to be a fantastic interview, You're

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Speaker 1: going to love it. It's Charlie Brooker. He is the

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Speaker 1: creator of Black Mirror, the amazing Netflix series that's sort

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Speaker 1: of you know, near term, the futuristic. Some people think

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Speaker 1: it's all dystopian. What's interesting is, I will tell you this,

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of thoughts of what I thought

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Speaker 1: motivated Charlie Brooker on various shows. I bet you, as

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Speaker 1: Black Mirror fans, you will assume some things that you

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Speaker 1: will find out are not true. What motivated him, what

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Speaker 1: were his what were his creative mentors? If you will,

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Speaker 1: both individuals and of different movies and shows. Just trust me,

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Speaker 1: you're going to love this interview. You're going to love him,

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Speaker 1: and you're going to learn a lot about what it

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Speaker 1: takes to create Black Mirror. In the mind of Charlie Brooker,

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Speaker 1: it is just I am. I would have him on

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Speaker 1: weekly if he had the time to do it, and

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Speaker 1: there's no doubt, as you'll find out in this interview,

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Speaker 1: this dude would be a lot of fun to be

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Speaker 1: in a writer's room with, that's for sure. But before

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Speaker 1: I get to there, I spent a lot of time

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Speaker 1: this week talking about the first hundred days of Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: But there is an opposition party that's out there, and

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Speaker 1: I thought it would be worth doing the first hundred

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Speaker 1: days report card, if you will, for the Democrats, because

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Speaker 1: as bad as things have gone for Donald Trump, this

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Speaker 1: has not been a seesaw as Trump goes down, Democrats

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Speaker 1: go up. That has not been the case. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the hallmark of all of the polling you've seen is,

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Speaker 1: even as Donald Trump's going down, the brand of the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party has yet to improve in the minds of voters.

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Speaker 1: And arguably that's a pretty honest assessment. Right what have

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Speaker 1: the Democrats had done to improve their brand? They really

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Speaker 1: haven't done anything yet. If anything, they're still trying to

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Speaker 1: figure it out. It isn't clear where this party is headed.

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Speaker 1: What is universally clear, though, is that the DC leadership

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Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party is not very popular at all.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's aking Jeffries Chuck Schumer, they're feeling some pressure.

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Speaker 1: I've talked to some donors who are very frustrated with Jeffries.

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Speaker 1: Don't understand why Nancy Pelosi is still sort of lingering

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Speaker 1: over the leadership of the House as much. I had

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Speaker 1: one prominent donor say to me over the weekend, I'm

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Speaker 1: glad Nancy Pelosi was there to do what was needed

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Speaker 1: to be done with Joe Biden's candidacy, but her shadow

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Speaker 1: over the party is only hurting Jeffries in the long run,

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Speaker 1: and is only hurting the party's brand in the long run.

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Speaker 1: If the party is going to try to gear itself

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Speaker 1: to the future, it's leadership of the previous twenty years

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Speaker 1: probably needs to step aside completely so that you certainly

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Speaker 1: hear that. Obviously, Chuck Schumer has been feeling the heat.

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Speaker 1: He's probably getting more of the arrows than most, considering

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Speaker 1: he had to make a tough decision, which was whether

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Speaker 1: to shut down the government or sort of let Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump have a situation that wasn't going to be popular

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Speaker 1: with the base of his party. I do think politically

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Speaker 1: he made the right call. He just communicated the idea

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily poorly, since he spent one day talking up the

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Speaker 1: idea of orchestrating a shutdown and then immediately backtracking on

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Speaker 1: that front. But his political calculus about what the right

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Speaker 1: call was I think has turned out to be right,

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Speaker 1: which is, don't get in Donald Trump's way if he's

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Speaker 1: in the middle of hurting himself politically. That's been the

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Speaker 1: James Carvel strategy. So I would say, if you were

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Speaker 1: going to give grades, the DC leadership is not getting

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Speaker 1: good grades. I don't think they're getting passing grades yet.

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Speaker 1: Now the question is who individually has had a good

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Speaker 1: first hundred days in the Democratic Party. Well, probably the

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Speaker 1: best way to judge that as you look at it

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Speaker 1: through the prism of future elections and the prism of

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Speaker 1: trying to position yourself as a leader or a player

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Speaker 1: at the table, trying to figure out what is the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party going to look like, what is the Democratic

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Speaker 1: brand going to be? So immediately when you look at

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Speaker 1: people who have made an early effort to make an impression,

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Speaker 1: Corey Booker, he certainly has decided to take matters more

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Speaker 1: into his own hands. He did the twenty five hour Philipbuster,

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Speaker 1: which got a reasonable amount of tension. In fact when

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Speaker 1: he timed it. If you recall, I thought it was

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Speaker 1: fascinating when he timed it. He timed it during the

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Speaker 1: election and day of that first special election in April,

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Speaker 1: which had the Wisconsin election and those two specials in Florida.

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Speaker 1: So it was sort of feeding the Democratic base as

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Speaker 1: they were getting excited about winning some of these special elections,

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Speaker 1: over performing in some of these special elections, and here

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Speaker 1: he was jacking the DC message machine for a day,

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Speaker 1: so I think, and over the weekend, Corey Booker and

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Speaker 1: Akim Jefferies did a live stream from the Capitol steps.

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Speaker 1: So I think Booker is trying to become one of,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to find his voices as a Trump resistor,

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Speaker 1: another sort of DC insider that's trying that same thing

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Speaker 1: as Chris Murphy, the Democratic Senator from Connecticut. He's been

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Speaker 1: trying to get on more socials, trying to sort of

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Speaker 1: also become more of an outside voice in pushing the party,

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Speaker 1: and you know, clearly is probably somebody at least thinking

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Speaker 1: about running for president. I think Corey Booker fair to

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Speaker 1: say that he's thinking about running for president other Democrats

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Speaker 1: in the first hundred days. So I think for the

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Speaker 1: most part, both Corey Booker and Chris Murphy, as far

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Speaker 1: as their own standing, I've made progress. And what they're

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Speaker 1: where they're trying to get to. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: they're the right answer. We're going to find out. Right.

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Speaker 1: Corey Booker was not could not get traction when he

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Speaker 1: ran for president in twenty twenty. Maybe that'll change this time.

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Speaker 1: But some of the efforts he's making, you can see

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Speaker 1: what he's doing, and it makes sense. Chris Murphy same thing,

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Speaker 1: gets a little less attention than Corey Booker, but you

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Speaker 1: see what he's trying to do. It may be just

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Speaker 1: the Washington baggage. You know, I'm convinced that the Democratic

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Speaker 1: primary electorate come twenty twenty seven to twenty twenty eight

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Speaker 1: is just going to care about two things new and electable. Now,

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Speaker 1: electable is going to be a debate, right, everybody has

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Speaker 1: a different version of who's electable and what's electable. But new,

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a big deal. Right

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Speaker 1: on the other first hundred days, Bernie Sanders and AOC obviously,

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Speaker 1: I think Alexandria Cassio Cortez has probably had a for

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Speaker 1: her personal politics, a very strong first one hundred days. Right,

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Speaker 1: She's already in line. There's no question anymore of who's

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Speaker 1: the heir apparent to the Bernie movement. It is her.

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Speaker 1: It is not going to be Rocanna, It is not

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Speaker 1: going to be anybody else. It is going to be her.

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Speaker 1: It is hers, unless somehow she decides not to run

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Speaker 1: for president. Now she's got two options sitting in front

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Speaker 1: of her in twenty twenty eight. If she chooses not

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Speaker 1: to run for president, she could run for a Chuck

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Speaker 1: Schumer Senate seat. I'd be as I told you in

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Speaker 1: a previous during the Dan Goldman preview there when I

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Speaker 1: said keep an eye on him for the future, I believe,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't believe Schumer ends up running for

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Speaker 1: reelection by twenty twenty eight. Right, that just you sort

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Speaker 1: of see where you kind of see where that's going.

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Speaker 1: And I think he could be vulnerable in a primary

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Speaker 1: if he's not careful on twenty twenty eight. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's the way he would want to go out. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know this, Nobody knows this. He's

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Speaker 1: certainly been a very successful New York politician. So I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to sit here and say that he should

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Speaker 1: know when the time to go is. But I would

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Speaker 1: be I certainly if I were a betting man, and

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Speaker 1: as many of you know, I do enjoy a FanDuel

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Speaker 1: a FanDuel app every now and then, I certainly would

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Speaker 1: be betting against him running for re election in twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: So the question is does she want to be a constant,

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Speaker 1: long term player in DC or does she want to

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Speaker 1: go for it and seeing if she can win the nomination.

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Speaker 1: I'm skeptical she can win the nomination. I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: I go back to electability, will she be able to

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Speaker 1: pass the electability test, which is again very subjective, but

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Speaker 1: I think the perception and there's going to be we'll

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Speaker 1: see what the evidence shows, but I think she starts

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Speaker 1: with a perception that she's going to have a hard

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Speaker 1: time winning in places like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. But

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Speaker 1: I'm going to just always be careful to under I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to undersell her. She is what I like

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Speaker 1: to describe as a very talented political athlete. And sometimes,

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Speaker 1: you know, you look at the NFL draft and you'll

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Speaker 1: see certain, oh, somebody's got his arms are too short,

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Speaker 1: or he doesn't have big enough hands and all this stuff,

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Speaker 1: but they're just so good at being a football player.

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Speaker 1: They overcome whatever physical trait that that that they should

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Speaker 1: have that they don't have. And so I feel the

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Speaker 1: same way about politicians is that you know, they can

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Speaker 1: be such a good campaigners. They can overcome maybe it's

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Speaker 1: a character flaw, maybe they overcome an ideological issue, whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. That you can overcome these things if you're

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Speaker 1: talented enough. So I'm hesitant to assume AOC can overcome

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Speaker 1: these things. I think she's proven to be a very talented,

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Speaker 1: talented politician, and I'm just watching her go from activist

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Speaker 1: to elected activist to start trying to have more say,

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Speaker 1: you know, both figuring out how to balance inside game

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Speaker 1: versus outside game. But overall, I think you could SAYOC

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Speaker 1: has had a very strong first hundred days because she

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Speaker 1: now is certainly the one getting in front of crowds,

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Speaker 1: whether they're Bernie generated, whether how much she's in charge

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Speaker 1: of that, how much it's Bernie's operation. That's still a

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Speaker 1: pretty strong first hundred days. Then there's Pete Footage, his

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Speaker 1: decision not to seek any office in Michigan, and he

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Speaker 1: was contemplating there are two open seats in Michigan, a

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Speaker 1: Senate seat and in a governor seat. Of course, he's

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Speaker 1: a new resident there. He moved the changes residency to

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Speaker 1: Michigan from Indiana, and his husband moved there. His husband's

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Speaker 1: from Michigan. So the question was going to be whether

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Speaker 1: whether he would seek state wide office in twenty six,

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Speaker 1: and I think if he did, he was taking himself

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Speaker 1: out of twenty eight. You're not if you're running for

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Speaker 1: a new office in twenty six. I think it's hard

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Speaker 1: to run in twenty eight if you're running for reelection

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Speaker 1: in twenty six to set up a run in twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a different story.

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Speaker 2: JB.

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Speaker 1: Pritzker, the governor of Illinois, appears to be on that track.

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Speaker 1: Although it's interesting to me that David Axelrod, who's an

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Speaker 1: Illinois guy through and through, is a little skeptical about whether,

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Speaker 1: if he wants to run for president, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: good idea to also seek reelection because Illinois might not

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Speaker 1: be as easy of a win for him as it

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Speaker 1: has been in the past. But remember, he is a billionaire,

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Speaker 1: the heir to the Higatt fortune, so there is plenty

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Speaker 1: of money there for JB. Pritzker. So I don't you know,

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Speaker 1: is he somebody that's had a good first hundred days.

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Speaker 1: He's also somebody that wants to become the resistor on

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Speaker 1: the gubernatorial side of things, more so than a Gretchen Whitmer,

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Speaker 1: who's been seen working with Trumps. She gotten too close

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Speaker 1: to Trump. I think she certainly had the worst photo

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Speaker 1: op moment of any Democrat in the first under days,

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Speaker 1: with the infamous folder over her face, and then she

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Speaker 1: you know, it's look, if she wants to rise above partisanship,

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Speaker 1: she can't keep apologizing for showing up at events with Republicans.

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Speaker 1: That's a habit. She's got a break if she really

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Speaker 1: wants to rise above and say and be willing to

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Speaker 1: go to places other Democrats aren't going to go so far. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: she's done that twice now with Trump, but she's apologized.

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Speaker 1: I didn't plan to speak right coming across as if, like,

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Speaker 1: please don't be mad at me democratic base that I'm

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Speaker 1: doing this, but hey, swing voters, look what I'm doing, right,

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Speaker 1: You got to sort of project more confidence in that.

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Speaker 1: So I think that how I think the idea is

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Speaker 1: she's pursuing are good. How she's gone about him right now,

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Speaker 1: I think I think could use some work. There's Gavin Newsom,

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Speaker 1: who started a podcast in the first hundred days to

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Speaker 1: try to break out of the stereotype San Francisco liberal

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Speaker 1: narrative that I do think is going to haunt him

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Speaker 1: for however long he wants to be in the national spotlight.

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Speaker 1: There's no doubt he has ambition to run for president.

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Speaker 1: I'm somebody who believes his best shot was primary ing

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Speaker 1: Biden when that talk was active and he decided not to.

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Speaker 1: I think my guess is, you know, if he ever

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Speaker 1: I always say this. The later in life, the more

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Speaker 1: you age, you start you do start not thinking and

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Speaker 1: worrying about the things that you did. You start wondering

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Speaker 1: and regretting the things that you didn't do. I have

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Speaker 1: a feeling gavenusom forever is going to regret not primarying

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Speaker 1: Biden in twenty four, that that is that road not

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Speaker 1: traveled will be one that he wonders what would have

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Speaker 1: happened had he did? Would the entire party be in

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Speaker 1: better shape? Would he be seen as a hero even

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Speaker 1: if he didn't win? Who knows? But the extreme effort

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Speaker 1: he's making to try to sort of left wing of

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Speaker 1: eyes himself right deeper resivise them. But I don't know

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Speaker 1: what you want to call it that he's trying to do.

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Speaker 1: But he's sort of like, I'm not sure how comfortable

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Speaker 1: I am being a Democrat that you know, he's sort

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Speaker 1: of acknowledging the elephant in the room with people who

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Speaker 1: you know. But is he also gone a little bit?

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Speaker 1: Is it a little too manufactured? Right? Is it going

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Speaker 1: to be? He's got to pass whatever. Authenticity is another

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Speaker 1: subjective word. You got to be authentic, well, authentic to

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Speaker 1: whom right? But I get I get the overall idea,

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Speaker 1: if it looks like you're trying too hard, voters will

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Speaker 1: punish that as well. So I give him a mixed grade.

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Speaker 1: A for effort, but I don't know, if you know,

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Speaker 1: just like I would with Qretchen Wimer. A for effort,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not quite sure if the execution's been as

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Speaker 1: good as it could be. And then there's the people

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Speaker 1: that I expect to be players in twenty eight that

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Speaker 1: have no have decided not yet to raise their profile.

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Speaker 1: Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland, Andy Basheer, Governor of Kentucky,

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Speaker 1: Rafael Warnock, Senator from Georgia, Mark Kelly, Senator from Arizona,

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Speaker 1: Ruben guy Diego Center from Arizona. I was talking to

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Speaker 1: a polster earlier this week who said to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: when we were talking about the Wes More candidacy, because

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Speaker 1: I think that's going to be assuming he runs in

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Speaker 1: twenty eight. I think he will be the biggest, the

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Speaker 1: biggest establishment organization on the democratic side. I think he'll

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Speaker 1: have some of the biggest donors. He'll have, you know,

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Speaker 1: big some of the big names around Hi, him and Buddhajic.

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Speaker 1: I expect to be sort of the biggest traditional sort

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Speaker 1: of campaign operations you have out there. But I had

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Speaker 1: somebody ask me, it's like, if you're going to try

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Speaker 1: to rerun Obama, be careful, right it may be especially

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Speaker 1: now that Latino voters are the new swing voters of

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Speaker 1: American politics, you know, should the Democrats be looking for

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Speaker 1: a Latino leader? And so to keep an eye on

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Speaker 1: Ruben Diego. He was pretty pretty liberal as a member

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Speaker 1: of the House, but he really has been trying to

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Speaker 1: sort of recenter himself with the with a statewide Arizona

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Speaker 1: electorate he did. You know, he got a little room

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Speaker 1: to run because of who his opponent was in the

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Speaker 1: Senate race, so that helped him a little bit. But

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Speaker 1: he's still probably you know, he's been viewing very close

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Speaker 1: to Mark Kelly here. I just keep an eye on him.

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Speaker 1: I just think that that there isn't a lot of

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Speaker 1: Latino leaders that feel like they're on the cusp of

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Speaker 1: putting together national campaigns that are not associated with an

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Speaker 1: ideology of AOC. But I think she, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if she would have an automatic appeal to

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Speaker 1: that swing voting, working class Latino voter that may be

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Speaker 1: voting more on some cultural issues that they're uncomfortable with

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Speaker 1: on the progressive side. So it's going to be it's

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Speaker 1: something to watch there, and it's something that I'm curious about.

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Speaker 1: So look, I think the Democratic brand is in the

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Speaker 1: toilet and all the polling, even if the first hundred

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Speaker 1: day shows you that it still is, voters can believe

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Speaker 1: two things. At the same time, Trump's presidency is going

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Speaker 1: off is going horribly, and they haven't yet seen anything

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Speaker 1: out of the Democrats that's appetizing. It's pretty clear that

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Speaker 1: DC leadership is getting a failing grade. The DNC is

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Speaker 1: mired in its own intra party feud over David Hogg

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Speaker 1: and primary individuals, all of those things. The new DNC

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Speaker 1: chair I thinks had a hard time sort of sort

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Speaker 1: of establishing himself frankly, yet I think bogged down a

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Speaker 1: bit by this David hog controversy and the fact that

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Speaker 1: both Schumer and Jeffries have their own challenges being the

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Speaker 1: official leadership of the Washington class of Democrats. And it's

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Speaker 1: been fascinating. You do get this sense that a lot

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Speaker 1: of Democrats have decided to take this branding issue and

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Speaker 1: try to deal with it themselves. And I expect more

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Speaker 1: of this. This is what happened to the Democrats after

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, and this is what happened to the

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Speaker 1: Democrats to a lesser extent after two thousand and five,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four, So I expect more of this.

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Speaker 1: And this is something about every you know, when we're

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Speaker 1: going to check in on the status of Trump and

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Speaker 1: the MAGA, we're going to do this with the Democrats

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Speaker 1: as well. So with that, I'm gonna pause there again.

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Speaker 1: You are gonna love this conversation with Charlie Brooker. Uh,

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Speaker 1: please enjoy it. If you're I'm an obsessive Black Mirror fan.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I can't watch back to back episodes though and

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Speaker 1: and and get a good night's sleep, so I do

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Speaker 1: sort of limit my exposure to Black Mirror about one

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Speaker 1: or two episodes a week as I digest the dystopian

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Speaker 1: nature of our future. Uh, enjoy the interview and enjoy

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Speaker 1: this break. Charlie Brooker, you are a guest that my

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Speaker 1: wife is probably more excited about than anybody that I've

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Speaker 1: booked so far. I'm excited to don't get me wrong, Okay,

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Speaker 1: but you know you've made the missus really happy that

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Speaker 1: you're a You're going to be a guest in the

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Speaker 1: on the podcast here.

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Speaker 2: That's nice tonight.

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Speaker 1: So let me start with this before we get into

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Speaker 1: black mirror. Do you feel like you are the twenty

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Speaker 1: first century George Orwell?

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Speaker 2: No, I would never. No, I mean I think that,

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Speaker 2: I mean, that would be nice if somebody wants to

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Speaker 2: make that comparison. I'm not going to spend four hours

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Speaker 2: trying to desperately talk them out of it. But no,

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Speaker 2: I think he was. He was probably a more astute

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Speaker 2: political writer than in many. I mean, I could list

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Speaker 2: all his qualities that I'd be very British about it,

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Speaker 2: aren't I I mean very British and self deprematic. No,

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Speaker 2: I've not felt a.

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Speaker 1: Ful humility, right, you know, I'm kidding. I'm kidding, you know,

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Speaker 1: please please don't tell me you know? No, no, no

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Speaker 1: more more.

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Speaker 2: I suppose it depends what do you mean in terms

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Speaker 2: of what do you mean? What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 2: In that he wrote nineteen eighty four and it was.

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Speaker 1: Well when you look at when you look at Orwell,

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Speaker 1: and he's probably the most prominent. Right here's somebody who

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Speaker 1: wrote about a futuristic dystopia. Obviously his was political satire.

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Speaker 1: Yours is cultural as well as societal and politically, I

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Speaker 1: would say, but in many ways. I you know, when

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Speaker 1: I try to separate those two, how many people say, well,

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Speaker 1: everything's politics now, everything is all fused together, right, everything is?

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Speaker 1: And I hate accepting that premise, but I understand why

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Speaker 1: people think that. So that's why I mean, I look

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Speaker 1: at it. If George orwell Will reincarded today, he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be writing novels. He'd probably making episodic series like you're doing.

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Speaker 2: I guess probably, I suppose probably. And then and I've

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Speaker 2: probably been moaning that his show was doing better than

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Speaker 2: mine or something. Yes, maybe maybe I suppose it's interesting

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Speaker 2: because I do. It's it's an odde, it's an odd

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Speaker 2: BLACKMR is a weird show in that I I don't

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Speaker 2: see it as the job of the show to like

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Speaker 2: be a sort of warning about nineteen eighty four. Was

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Speaker 2: probably more felt like a warning, more overtly a wow.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people watch you, I think, watch these

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Speaker 1: episodes and view it as a warning. You don't view

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Speaker 1: that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't. I suppose maybe I don't explicitly set

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Speaker 2: out to be a warning because I'm I may what

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Speaker 2: it probably is, and a psychologist could probably it would

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Speaker 2: probably word out what it is better than me. It's

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Speaker 2: probably I'm a worrier. I'm quite an anxious and neurotic person.

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Speaker 2: But I've also got a background in comedy. Why often

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Speaker 2: it's me kind of worrying out loud. Sometimes the episodes

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Speaker 2: are kind of me worrying out loud. Sometimes I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to Sometimes it's actually coming from a sort of really

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Speaker 2: darkly comic place that we then play straight if you're

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Speaker 2: saying in the shirt itself. So I'm sort of but

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Speaker 2: predominantly I'm trying to entertain more than i'm trying to warn.

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Speaker 2: And if I'm trying to warn it, I'm not always

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't necessarily boil it down to a specific warning.

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Speaker 2: But one thing that frustrates me is when people say

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Speaker 2: it's a warning about technology, which I really don't think

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Speaker 2: that the show is.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start beating around the bush. What's the show?

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Speaker 2: What is it? You did say it's a cookery show. No,

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Speaker 2: it's a am I talking about it? No it's no,

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Speaker 2: it's well, okay, so it definitely it's it's more about people.

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Speaker 2: I think. I think because I think while these show

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Speaker 2: I'm actually impressed by technology in my everyday life. I

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Speaker 2: think technology is amazing. And I used to be a

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Speaker 2: video games journalist.

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Speaker 1: One quiet, So you're not, you don't you don't have

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Speaker 1: a phobia.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a phobia about I'm impressed and amazed

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Speaker 2: by technology, and I tend to be an early adopter

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Speaker 2: of well certainly like video game consoles and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So I'm sort of like a tech enthusiast in many ways.

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Speaker 2: And I think but I but like I said, I

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Speaker 2: am a warrior, and I think that I am often

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Speaker 2: awestruck by what technology can do. And then that naturally

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Speaker 2: leads you to worry about the implications of a powerful

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Speaker 2: because it's a mawful tool. And we're we're amazing creatures

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Speaker 2: because we create created these tools. But we're also there's

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Speaker 2: loads of us, and we can be clumsy, we can

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Speaker 2: be we've got faults, we've got flaws, and so we

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Speaker 2: can So it's sort of so if there's any sort

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Speaker 2: of parable going on, it's really usually in our stories,

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Speaker 2: it's usually a sort of active human clumsiness or an

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Speaker 2: active human impulsiveness or greed or jealousy or something like

429
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 2: that actually is the downfall of the character.

430
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's interesting I watch Black Mirror with

431
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 1: the following thought in mind, is that you're doing the

432
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,919
Speaker 1: due diligence on the impact on human beings that the

433
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: tech companies themselves don't do. Right, You're sort of like,

434
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: and that's what I feel. In some ways, you're the

435
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: test kitchen for where there's is headed and I sit

436
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 1: there and i'm you know, because we talk like there

437
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,959
Speaker 1: are no ethics boards with any of these you know,

438
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 1: they all every once in a while open AI claims, oh,

439
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 1: we haven't we have ethicists on staff, or we're trying

440
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 1: to have an ethics board, but really they don't. In

441
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 1: many ways, you're the human umbudsman for technology right now.

442
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 1: In that I feel like you're you're the human test kitchen, Like, Okay, yes,

443
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: here's this amazing tool. Like take your first episode. I

444
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: feel like we can spoil episode one. I hope everybody's

445
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,959
Speaker 1: already seen episode one, so you take that episode. In

446
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: some ways, you're optimistic, look at this, We're going to

447
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,719
Speaker 1: be able to cure, We're going to be able to

448
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: be essentially replace pieces of the brain. That's exciting and

449
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 1: and and in fact, that's that is the story.

450
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: In the story, it's absolutely life saving.

451
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: It's transferred then and then but then you sort of

452
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: you go, okay, but what if it has to do

453
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: what if you're sort of stuck always having to be

454
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: connected to the cloud, you know.

455
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: Subscription model totally they're totally crush.

456
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I can see your your comedian side in

457
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: you wouldn't that be hilarious, right, You're like, uh no, yeah, upgrade,

458
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: you got to be on you know plus, you know,

459
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 1: or premium or whatever it is. But I could watch

460
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: that episode and say, you're an optimist about where we're

461
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: going and to be able to like be you know,

462
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: with the brain, and you're a cynic because you assume

463
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: somebody is going to want to profit off of people's

464
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 1: pain and suffering.

465
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you could argue that that cynical or

466
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 2: unfortunately true. Yeah, it's realistic. And it's it's interesting that

467
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: where that story came about. That came about from me

468
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 2: listening to a podcast.

469
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: Story. I'm glad you're telling it. I find it fascinating.

470
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 2: Explained so well, So I was listening to a podcast,

471
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: you know, I listened to a lot of podcasts, and

472
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: when the host has to do an immediate pivot into

473
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 2: a sales pitch, it always it strikes me as it's

474
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 2: really quite weird when they go for talking very naturally

475
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 2: into a slightly more robotic kind of sales.

476
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: This is, of course, is when my producers are going

477
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: to when our salespeople will insert the ad that's going

478
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: to do right here, right here.

479
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: And I think I'd listened to like a crime true

480
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: crime podcast and the guy was sort of recounting some

481
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 2: grizzly like terrible, terrible incident and then sort of had

482
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 2: to suddenly pivot into pitching a sort of food delivery company,

483
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 2: like kind of seamlessly. And this struck me as darkly hilarious,

484
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 2: and so going into that story, I thought, Okay, here's

485
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 2: a here's a that's a very black merrory idea, because

486
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about, well, what if you had a

487
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: service that could kind of stream part of your brain

488
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 2: like you do me if you you lose part of

489
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: your brain that was a backup and it can streame

490
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 2: it to but you've got all these issues to do

491
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: with coverage, cell coverage, and then the idea of adverts

492
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: that became a funny and quite dystopian thought, and and

493
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: so I approached that story thinking this is going to

494
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 2: be a comedy, and it is a comedy until it isn't.

495
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: And I think that's why it's quite I think obviously

496
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: in that episode. I think it's a very powerful episode.

497
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 2: I think Chris and Rashida and Tracy who are starring it,

498
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: and Ali Panku the director, I think everybody did an

499
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: amazing job. And it's like slightly wrong footsoe because it

500
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: looks like it's going to be a comedic story, and

501
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: then the logic of the cold logic of it gets

502
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: more and more inescapable, and I think that's quite quite

503
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: often that's my that's not my happy place, but that's

504
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 2: my natural I'm trying not to say wheelhouse I don't

505
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 2: like that phrase, but well, wheelhouse is what is a wheelhouse.

506
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: Where they housed wheels? You're right, I love it. By

507
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: the way, It's like it's like you know, when you're

508
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: when when what is it? Uh? What is it? You

509
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: know when people use undaunted and un daunted, you know

510
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: what I mean? There was something like that. We have

511
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: these weird expressions where we never use other parts of

512
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: the word so I don't know, do we go to

513
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: the house to put wheels in it? Right?

514
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: What is it?

515
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: Right? You know it's where Michelin's are made. Right, You're right,

516
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: we've all.

517
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: Been saying, none of us know. It's like uh so

518
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 2: so so so I quite like taking a premise that's

519
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: sort of comic and then you find the sort of

520
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: sometimes the horror angle. Sometimes we've done episodes that are

521
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 2: more optimistic. But I suppose there what am I saying

522
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: that I I you realize then that you've got a

523
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: story that is actually commenting on on lots of things,

524
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: the healthcare, health care and healthcare, general cost of living and.

525
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: Of healthcare. Right, like we we all know we come

526
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: up with these amazing cures or there's medicine out there,

527
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: but only for those that can afford it.

528
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: From perspective, I'm in the UK and I can't imagine,

529
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: so I have you know, we have the NHS here,

530
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: which is for the point of view, so all of that,

531
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: so Breaking Bad wouldn't have really worked here as a show,

532
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: like if you said it in the UK, because he

533
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: Walter White would go and get treatment with like he'd

534
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: now the NHS has also faults, but you would go

535
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: and get life saving treatment very quickly, and you wouldn't

536
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: be bankrupted for that here so so so so so

537
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: sometimes you did you realize, oh, I'm commenting on that.

538
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't realize when I when I walked

539
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: into this sort of room narratively, I didn't realize that

540
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: it was also full of all of this stuff. And

541
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: so you kind of realize you're in quite a rich

542
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 2: environment in a way, so you can and you can

543
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: comment on lots of things. And also that episode is

544
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: am I had to what what's the language like on

545
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: this on this pod?

546
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: We don't.

547
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: We don't, but it's not it's not a massively offensive word.

548
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: If you heard the word in shtification, in.

549
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: Shita plication, I have, yeah, yes, So it's not my.

550
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: Cory doctor Rose, this writer who coined this phrase in citification.

551
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: And I was thinking all some of that, which is

552
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: the process by which platforms or services the experience for

553
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: the user degrades over time to cause well that's been

554
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: it has to make a profit, it's the story.

555
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: Well, it's well, all these tech companies right they sit

556
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: there with the big tech, whether it's Facebook or let's

557
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: take Facebook and X two really fun experiences when they

558
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: first were rolled out and then they went became public companies,

559
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: and then suddenly they had to they had to convince

560
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: shareholders that they could keep people on the site longer,

561
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: and they were staying up the platform longer, and then

562
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: they were putting more ads to them. Now, how did

563
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: they do that? They cranked up the algorithms of anger

564
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: and grievance and hey, right, like it is and then

565
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 1: you have and then we then you look at what

566
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: Elon must did and he took all the whatever guardrails

567
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,239
Speaker 1: there were on X, he took them off. And I

568
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: think that guy was writing about the gentrification of Twitter

569
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: if I'm mistaken, like that was one of examples.

570
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of, and well I'm kind of sort of everything,

571
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: sort of everything, and it's hard to leave, as you either,

572
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: it's hard to leave. So actually it's a bit like.

573
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: Because you remember, you're right, because you also remember when

574
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: it was good.

575
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, when it's like being trapped in a loveless marriage,

576
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: it's sort of like it's like you're trapped in this

577
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: you you you entered into it. It was fun and

578
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: now and then.

579
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: My wife is listening to this one very closely. I

580
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: don't know what that is, Charlie, I don't know what

581
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: You don't know what I'm talking know what you're talking about.

582
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: My wife doesn't know what I'm talking about. No, But

583
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: as a metaphor, it's it's like a not what you

584
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: thought you were getting into at the start. And you

585
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: can't see social media all sorts of platforms, you can't

586
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: see away. You're addicted to it now as well. I'm

587
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: smoking smoking, That's what it's like. Yeah, and it's it's Moorish. Yeah.

588
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 1: So so so take me back to the to the creation,

589
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: because what I love about the background you give a

590
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: lot of hope to all of us recovering journalists who

591
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: think that these creative ideas that we're all going to become.

592
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: You know, we're all going to make some incredible effort

593
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: that helps it. Yeah, but you know, how long did

594
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: you have this in your head as an idea for

595
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: a TV series before you actually could get it to fruition?

596
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 2: Actually not so. I My my career path is weird,

597
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: and again it sort of slightly makes sense in retrospect.

598
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: So I was a I was a cartoonist. First of all,

599
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 2: I was a cartoonist. Then I was a video games journalist.

600
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: Then I was sort of doing a website. Then I

601
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: was working in comedy and I was writing for The Guardian,

602
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: but I was doing like TV reviews, and I never

603
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: considered myself a journalist. I would write columns and I

604
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: would write TV reviews, but I always considered myself a

605
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: bit of a bound really like I was a or

606
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: I was. I was attempting to do comedy bits. I

607
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: was always okay right comedy. And then I had an

608
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: idea for we did a show. I had an idea

609
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: for a show in the UK which took a comic

610
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: premise and then played it straight. It was a zombie show,

611
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: and the premise was that there was a series of

612
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: the TV show, the season of Big Brother, the reality show,

613
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: which at the time was absolutely massive in the UK.

614
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: And the premise was there was a season of Big Brother,

615
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: and what if there was a zombie apocalypse broke out

616
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: during this and the people in the Big Brother house,

617
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: who had been chosen by producers to argue and fight

618
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: and not get along are sort of the only people

619
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 2: left alive in the whole of written. And then I

620
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: thought the other funds that was a fan of sort

621
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: of horror and zombie things. I thought, well, what if

622
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: we and then what if we play it's straight? Was

623
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: the other sort of the idea, and we did that

624
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: and it went down really well. It was like really successful.

625
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: And then so THEA it was Channel four in the UK,

626
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: said well what else would you like to do? And

627
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 2: I'd always been an admirer of the Twilight Zone, and

628
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: we had a show in the UK Tales to the Unexpected,

629
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: which was short Rob Dahl stories. The BBC often used

630
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: to when I was growing up. They put out these

631
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: really bizarre sort of one off plays, sometimes about that

632
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: you couldn't kind of you'd go into school the next

633
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: day and did you see that thing? Wore? A man

634
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: fell in love with a tree or whatever. You know.

635
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: It's like a crazy sort of avant garde place. And

636
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: then really terrifying films about nuclear war and stuff like this,

637
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 2: and so I so I sort of that was what

638
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: I pitched, and it was originally the idea. It didn't

639
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: have the technological focus so much the original pitch. It

640
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: was more I was interested in I read about Rod Serling,

641
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 2: who created the Twilight Zone, and I read so I

642
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 2: read a sort of biography of about him, and I didn't.

643
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: I hadn't appreciated the trial Zone was away niche in

644
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: the UK. You had to see it was like on

645
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: late at night, I sort of like ten thirty pm

646
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: or eleven pm, like tucked away on a channel and

647
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 2: at random times, but it would still really stand up

648
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 2: and speak to me. And I hadn't appreciated that Rod

649
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: Serling was a I'd only known him was the guy

650
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: from The Twilight so that he was. When the Twilight

651
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: Zen was first announced, people were going, why on earth

652
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: is he debasing himself doing the show. He's a serious playwright,

653
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: he's a serious writer. Why is he doing a silly

654
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: show about it looks like this is going to be

655
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: about UFOs and little Green men and aliens and different dimensions.

656
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: And of course it was because it meant he could

657
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: talk about the issues of the day without being censored,

658
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: because he could he could address things as metaphor. But

659
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: also to a kid watching it, it was just that's cool,

660
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: a chilling sort of story, or it's got a mind

661
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: mangling twist, and that's just really cool. And I kind

662
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: of and so that that was the impetus was to

663
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: do something that was a bit like that. But about

664
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 2: now and then I kind of the more I thought

665
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: about it, I thought, well, what would Rod be writing

666
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 2: about now? What it would be technology? And it would

667
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 2: be it would But again, at the time, at the time,

668
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: it was so at the time the show first, at

669
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: the time the show was first conceived, the view of

670
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: technology was very, very positive, very positive. I think generally

671
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: we thought these were these iPhones and smartphones were brilliant,

672
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: and social media had helped bring about the Arab Spring,

673
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: and it was going to rusher in a new era

674
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: of diplomacy and democracy, and we're all going to talk

675
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 2: to each other. And the biggest complaint anyone had about

676
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 2: social media was that it was full of people posting

677
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: photos of their breakfast and talking about my nature in

678
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: their life and being a little narcissistic, not unhinged. So

679
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: it wasn't this sort of unhinged vortex of anger and hatred.

680
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: But because it seemed so rosy, the portrayal of it

681
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 2: seemed so rosy, and that it made me that the anxious,

682
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 2: neurotic person in me was immediately distrustful and scared, right

683
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 2: if because you kind of think.

684
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: Well, now we've all flipped, right now, everybody's now everybody's

685
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: negative on tech, right, there's a general this is you know,

686
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: there's a general concern right there. Immediately just look at

687
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: just look at how I think we're all approaching AI.

688
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: There's this immediate art. Yeah, sure, you know, because there's

689
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: always a lot of we don't want to do what

690
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: we did with social media, where we were sort of yay,

691
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: this is awesome, right, like you know this we're taking

692
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 1: down dictators and only to find out whoa dictators figured

693
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: out how to use this themselves. Oh oh do you

694
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: now do you think you're going to find yourself if

695
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: you're a zagger and it sounds like you're a zagger, right,

696
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: if everybody's going one way, you're like, okay, this is

697
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: probably the time we need to show people what the

698
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: what the other path might look like. Are you going

699
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: to go optimist on us?

700
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: I'm probably more of a boring centrist in a way

701
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: in terms of like, so I can worry again, I can.

702
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: I have a natural ability to worry about anything. I

703
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 2: can leap over five linipads over to immediate destruction and

704
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 2: the apocalypse very quickly. You could show me a spoon

705
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 2: and I would worry about terrible things that someone could

706
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 2: do with that spoon, and so I can totally sit

707
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 2: with AI. It's I can absolutely understand all the terrifying

708
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: implications and it's the unknown, isn't it really is?

709
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: We don't know.

710
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 2: But you can also see, Okay, there are there's meread opportunities.

711
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 2: That is an amazing tool, and we're not going to

712
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: we can't really put the genie back in the bottle.

713
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 2: We've invented this. Yes, I worry. I worry about you know,

714
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 2: if you've got if you're in a kind of AI

715
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 2: arms race, then obviously there's a an impetus to like

716
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: and and people start thinking that guardrails are slowing them down,

717
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 2: then there's a this is the reason to you know,

718
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: dismantle any guard rounds that there are. I think, kind

719
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: of like anything, the printing press was an amazing, like

720
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 2: one of the most amazing inventions in history. Caused all

721
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: sorts of people because suddenly you had this way that

722
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 2: ideas could be disseminated. Obviously, no one would say the

723
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 2: printing press was a bad invention.

724
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: Right, Well, my favorite you know what the second you know,

725
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: if if the printing press was the single greatest invention

726
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: to expand literacy to civilization. The number two most important

727
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: invention were eyeglasses. So and I it's not my idea.

728
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: This was a fellow journalist who I was at this.

729
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: You know, we were talking about all these technological transformations,

730
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: and you know, somebody was mentioned the printing press, and

731
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: then somebody mentioned the internet and computers and all this stuff.

732
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 1: And it turned out like if you if you look back,

733
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: the second most hot invention for essentially literacy, right eye glasses,

734
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: you know, was the people would actually see Yeah, I

735
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: was in front of you could read right, you know,

736
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: and it was one of those moments you were like,

737
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: well duh, but you don't think sometimes we don't think

738
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: of a No.

739
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 2: Actually, that's a good example of a extremely in a way,

740
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: very positively disruptive technology but probably obviously clearly did a

741
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: lot more harmor good. Unless you can bet somebody put

742
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: on a pair of eyeglasses and went right, I don't

743
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: like that guy over there.

744
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 1: Man, I didn't realize how much I didn't like. It

745
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: ended a lot.

746
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: I don't like my neighbors. Yeah so so, But like

747
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: I guess, with any of these, with AI, you can

748
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 2: see that the potential is incredible. The potential for it

749
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 2: as a tool is incredible. The obvious worry I think

750
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 2: that we all have is is that guy going to

751
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: take my job? Is that that? Is that guy going

752
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: to take my job? And then is that guy going

753
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: to run things from that? Is that guy going to

754
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: be my boss? Not just take my job, but going

755
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: to be my boss? And how how do we manage that?

756
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: If that's the case. And I don't know, Jim, I don't.

757
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: I think like any writer, you you look at like

758
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: something like chat GPT and you are it's worrisome. It's

759
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 2: it's a it's a it's a worry, and you worry

760
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: about replacing any if we end up replacing I mean

761
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: I could I'm talking creatively if you end up replacing

762
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 2: if any creative work is is one human attempting to

763
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 2: communicate with other humans. If you take the cuman out

764
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: of one end of that hype, I don't know what,

765
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: You've got a different I think you've got a different form.

766
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 2: You've got a different thing that I asked you.

767
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: That is, have you used any Have you used AI

768
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: to workshop or road test any of your ideas? Have

769
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: you used a chat GBT as sort of like a

770
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: tenth writer in your writer room.

771
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 2: I think if you start replacing writers in your well, weirdly,

772
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 2: we don't have a we don't actually have a writing

773
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: room or black mirror.

774
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: We say, what do you do? Like, tell me about

775
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: like the pitch meetings, Like how does that work?

776
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 2: Well, now it's just I'm walking around occasionally. So I've

777
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 2: collaborated with right, so we've done there's there's two of

778
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 2: the episodes this season are co written. But we don't

779
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: have like a formal writing room where people are sort

780
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: of pitching ideas and stuff. Usually what's happening is I'm

781
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 2: wandering around thinking I've got nuggets of idea, and then

782
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 2: they'll sort of coalesce at some point if that makes

783
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: it like a sudden nature, I'll think, Oh, I know,

784
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 2: I want to do a story about this, and I

785
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: want to do a story with and here's a cool scene.

786
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 2: I've got this. Well, here's a moment I want to do,

787
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: but I don't. I don't know what the story is.

788
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 2: And then I'll see something else or I'll think of

789
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: something and that will bause me to knit those ideas together. Now,

790
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: whether I could regurgitate all those ideas into an AI

791
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: and go can you see connections between them. I probably

792
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: could do that.

793
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: Would it? Would it?

794
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 2: That's a scary Again, there was a good roll dull

795
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 2: story about that, about an automatous writing machine with pedals

796
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: for that's a scary Are you hatening your own demise

797
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: by doing that? Certainly? I can see obviously when when

798
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: chat gpt first launched, the first thing I did was

799
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 2: you say to it, com then tell me a black

800
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 2: mirror a type idea, and it started coming out with

801
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,919
Speaker 2: something that initially you go, oh god, that's that's okay.

802
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: That sounds plausible. It's sounded plausible, but it was also

803
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 2: the more so you get the immediate as just watching

804
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,919
Speaker 2: the sentences come in. You haven't a media like Jesus Chris.

805
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: You know, oh my god, this is I'm watching myself

806
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: get dismantled. I'm watching the death of my career in

807
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: real And then you go, actually, oh, actually, now this

808
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: isn't that good. This is very this is generic, and

809
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: it's for me like, oh, when I see this feels

810
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 2: like a lukewarm, right, not very interesting pitch that actually

811
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 2: is just bubbled together from fragments of because it's a.

812
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: Bit like the it's it doesn't and I think it

813
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: doesn't work if there's not a human creative elopment. I

814
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: think that's what we're going to learn.

815
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 2: I think so, but I hope so. And I think

816
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: that we'll always want it. That's the other thing. I

817
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 2: think we'll always want that.

818
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: The thing is, I'm convinced we're going to have to

819
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: start paying extra for human customer service, like I've been.

820
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: I hate AI customer service, right. You feel like they

821
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: don't know. You get the automated chats or the automated this,

822
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: and then you're like representative or ah, you know, you

823
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: hit your zero whatever it is, and you have to

824
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: wait longer to get a human being. I actually think

825
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: some business is going to say, hey, why don't we

826
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: charge people as a human to talk to a human?

827
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 2: But how will you know you're talking to a human?

828
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: That's the problem, then, rates because you get well at

829
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 2: the moment, it's because you get the equivalent of a

830
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: sort of novelty be fob that impresses, that makes four

831
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 2: sound effects. That's your like when they're rubbish and you're

832
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: talking to one and it's just going I'm sorry to

833
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,919
Speaker 2: hear that. You feel that you're cross. Have you tried

834
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 2: looking up on our website. It's sort of chatbot that's

835
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: frustrating when you've got one, but you're within By next year,

836
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: you'll probably have one that within six minutes you'll be

837
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 2: telling it your deepest, darkest secrets and confiding in it,

838
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: because I mean, they're basically like Eliza, which was the

839
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 2: that was the first sort of AI chatbot. Was this

840
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 2: thing Eliza, wasn't it? That was the sixties, late sixties

841
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 2: something of that, and it was designed to be a

842
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 2: sort of to just do what a basic psychologist would do,

843
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 2: and it would just mirror back what you said to it.

844
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: And there's a sort of famous anecdote about the guy

845
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 2: who created Eliza asked his secretary to test it out,

846
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 2: and within about twenty minutes she asked him to leave

847
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 2: the room because she was telling it things that were private.

848
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 2: And all that was was a very basic bit of

849
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 2: code that would go hello, what's your name and you'd

850
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: say my name is Charlie, So how are you feeling today?

851
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 2: And you go quite sad and would go, oh, Charlie,

852
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: why are you feeling quite sad? And then before you

853
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: know it, you're regurgitating yourself. And so they'll probably get

854
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 2: to that point where you'll pay it not to speak

855
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 2: to a human and you'll you're being speaking to her.

856
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: You'll be you'll be being psycho. You'll be sharing your

857
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: deepest secrets with an AI therapist who's available twenty four

858
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: hours a day.

859
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 1: So if I didn't know you, I would assume you

860
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: were a privacy nut, like you're obsessed with privacy, because

861
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: a lot I would argue a lot of your episodes

862
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: deal with the issue.

863
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 2: I think you're right, but also, like people get shocked

864
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: when I say I've like we've got like an Amazon

865
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 2: Alexa device in the house.

866
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: No, you're right, I am already shocked at how much

867
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: of a tech advocate you are. Because you're right. If

868
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: I didn't know you, you're this is what you do, and

869
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 1: you be like, well, this guy is probably off the grid.

870
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: He probably has the aluminum foil on the doors.

871
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: You know. Oh, I'm like that. I'm not the unibomber. No,

872
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 2: people often think it's like me in a yes, in

873
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 2: a wooden shack with foil. Yeah, like you say, foil around.

874
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: Always spoil, there's always boil always.

875
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 2: But that would if I was sitting there, my computers

876
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 2: wouldn't work, I'd be so sad and so I mean,

877
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say. I mean the problem is I don't

878
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 2: think that I really do worry. I really worry about

879
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: obviously in the creative industries, I massively worry about what

880
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 2: AI could do as in terms of it's already a

881
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 2: tight time, it's already a you know, challenging environment, you

882
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: might say, and it could wreak real human habit very quickly.

883
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 2: I can also see why, why why it's going to be.

884
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 2: I mean, someone's going to do a movie that's using

885
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: this generator, Like like when Toy Story came out and

886
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 2: it was the first CGI animated cartoon, and everyone went, oh,

887
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: you can do that, Wow, okay, and it sort of,

888
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: you know, we didn't lose the art of hand drawn animation,

889
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 2: but it meant that, you know, the default the animated

890
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: films became.

891
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: Doesn't it? In fairness, doesn't every technological advancement put somebody's

892
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: career get rid of some sort of you know, refrigeration.

893
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:34,959
Speaker 1: We used to have people that worked in the ice

894
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: block industry, right, you know, literally blocks of ice. Right,

895
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: we had refrigeration, and you didn't need the block of

896
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: ice people anymore. Now there was probably a lot of

897
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,439
Speaker 1: people lamenting that those jobs were gone. Oh my god,

898
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,479
Speaker 1: where we automation is replacing jobs?

899
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: Right?

900
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: I'm being a I mean, I would argue this is

901
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: sort of a repetitive cycle when it comes to any

902
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: technological advancement.

903
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 2: It is, I supposed to the why he comes when

904
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 2: it's when it's when it's it's all jobs, that's the problem.

905
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: But it's basically when it's when it's all careers or

906
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 2: jobs or not not all careers or jobs, because again

907
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 2: I don't I have no idea how this stuff will

908
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: pan out. Do you know what I mean? I don't

909
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 2: actually know. But it's how we find It's beyond even

910
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 2: the financial obviously, the financial impact on how you run,

911
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: Like purpose, just what's our how we find purpose and

912
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: meaning in what we do. If a lot of what

913
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: we do is replicated tirelessly by a system, I don't

914
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 2: really know what that does to us psychologically. So it's

915
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 2: so I think it's it's it's it's And again you

916
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: could argue, well, maybe I only I am worrying about it

917
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 2: now because you know, I'm a writer, and I feel

918
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: like that's under three. And again I can see the

919
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 2: value in it as a like you say, as a tool.

920
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 2: I can see the value in as a tool. You know,

921
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 2: we don't take an artist. We don't think we teach,

922
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 2: we don't.

923
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: We don't teach spelling anymore, you know. And I was

924
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: like spelling test. I was, I loved and I was

925
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: obsessed as a kid. I'm in my fifties now. Of

926
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: course spell check happened probably after college, and then all

927
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 1: of a sudden, now we don't care about you can't

928
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: miss spell words anymore because of autocorrect, like people, and

929
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: so I don't know what to make of that, but

930
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: that is something now longer is relevant.

931
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, is not an American thing because that in Britain.

932
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: My kids, my kids, I remember them, they talked so

933
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 2: much about spelling and like phrases. I didn't know what

934
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 2: that like. They come home and go, I've got to

935
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: do this work about try grass again.

936
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: Everybody thinks a British are smarter than we are. There

937
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: you go, guys are still being todd spelling.

938
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: I don't know that we are. I think we're probably

939
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 2: not being taught all all sorts of other things from

940
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 2: British history or whatever.

941
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 1: But you get my boy, like spelling is no longer.

942
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:08,439
Speaker 1: You know, there was a time right if you weren't

943
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: a good speller, you were uncomfortable even writing a letter

944
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: you would get you know, you would worry that it

945
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: would create a judgment of you, and and people would, oh,

946
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: you're not a good speller, you're not educated. And now

947
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: you know, we got the tools. You don't worry about it, right,

948
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 1: And is that a have we taken away something from society?

949
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: And again seems like a.

950
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 2: No no, because you're probably it means that you can

951
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 2: you're not. There'll be people who were held back by

952
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 2: the fact that they were dyslexic, or they were just

953
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 2: weren't good at one thing and they were excelled at

954
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 2: something else. And now it levels the playing field a

955
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 2: little more. So that's a good thing. But again, I

956
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 2: think the problem is that we we're sort of trained,

957
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 2: were naturally sort of analyze everything and think is this

958
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: good or bad? And the answer is it's kind of both,

959
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 2: isn't it?

960
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: So it's so again, hands right, it turns out it's neutral. Right,

961
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: what we don't think of it now? All technology is neutral.

962
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: It's the humans that use it. Are they using using.

963
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 2: It's a powerful, very useful tool. It can also be.

964
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: Terrifying of death or a name in life.

965
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 2: I mean we could list you could you can list

966
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 2: every tool in the tools in that wheelhouse and the

967
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 2: wheel you know, someone can drive around their house and

968
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: pick the door in so so it is it's just

969
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 2: that it's the pace of it, The dizzying speed with

970
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 2: which these things are coming along, I think is the

971
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: thing that makes people rightly anxious. But it's also it

972
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: is exciting, but it's also terrifying.

973
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,479
Speaker 1: I'd say another theme. Let me ask you about another

974
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: theme that does seem to come through consumer You know,

975
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: consumerism is something you seem to enjoy. Is that more

976
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: of a of a comedic element to you or.

977
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 2: It's often a darkly committed because one of the I

978
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: think I mentioned the Twilight Zone, I mentioned sort of

979
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: weird British TV shows, and I think one of the

980
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 2: things that and I've realized recently how much it influenced

981
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 2: blackmir RoboCop thee eighty eighty seven. Was it like RoboCop

982
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: the original?

983
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad you about that is a weirdly

984
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: brilliant movie. People simpully appreciate it. It's a brilliant brilliant

985
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: movie ahead of.

986
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 2: Its time, way ahead of its time. It's a brilliant

987
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 2: comedy as well. It's like a really dark comedy in

988
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: a way that when I loved it, when I was

989
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: like a teenager, I saw it and wore the VHS

990
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:40,959
Speaker 2: out watching it over and over again. And I think

991
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,240
Speaker 2: a lot of the actually a lot of the comedy

992
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,359
Speaker 2: sailed over my head. But what I really be sort

993
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: of the dystopian commodification of everything that was going on,

994
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 2: and that was excellently done. I have to say. As

995
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 2: a brit it was fairly, very heavily influenced by Judge Dread,

996
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 2: which was Aish British.

997
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 1: Coblis, which what do you mean? And they made into

998
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: a movie a couple years later because of the robotcarp.

999
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 2: Yes, so so. But but but the there's there's always

1000
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 2: been something I think at heart and again this isn't

1001
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 2: I don't. This is not what I sit down thinking

1002
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 2: when coming up with a Black Mirror story. I don't

1003
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 2: think this is what I want to write about it.

1004
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,240
Speaker 2: Actually it's looking back, you go, Oh, that's what it's about.

1005
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: Almost every episode is about what's real and authentic in

1006
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 2: some way. You could argue almost every episode we do ultimately,

1007
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 2: that's it. Whether it's a story where it's people passed

1008
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 2: into a sort of VR simulation of something, or it's

1009
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: you know, a character who is suddenly having to spout

1010
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 2: sales pictures in their every day life. It's it's kind

1011
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 2: of always about what's authentic, and that's something that's kind

1012
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 2: of under assault all the time.

1013
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: Well, look, I think one of the other brilliant things

1014
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: you do is here you're dealing with a bunch of

1015
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 1: feu futuristic ideas, but the setting always feels right now right.

1016
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: You don't. You're always I feel like you're basically saying, hey,

1017
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: this is a little bit in the future, but it's

1018
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: very but we're going to make sure everything else is

1019
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: as familiar as possible. So you have the beaten up

1020
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: Volvo right in episode one, and things in some ways

1021
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 1: things were the same, you know, the open place you

1022
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: go get a crappy burger and things like this, But

1023
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 1: then you have these little grace notes like the honeybees,

1024
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: which I know is a theme, and a few other things.

1025
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: It seemed very intentional. This is a seasonal you've always

1026
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,399
Speaker 1: wanted to keep. You don't ever put people. You don't

1027
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: try to create futuristic landscapes. I've noticed, No, we don't.

1028
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 2: I suppose it's because again, it's usually even when we've

1029
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 2: done we've done stories where there's a hugely you know,

1030
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 2: we're taking huge liberties with what is. You know, we're

1031
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 2: showing things that probably will never quite be possible, showing

1032
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 2: people kind of uploading their stoles or you know. But

1033
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 2: but you kind of always want to keep one foot

1034
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 2: on the ground. I think that's just my personal taste

1035
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 2: is more the RoboCop end of sci fi than it

1036
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 2: is the Star Wars end of sci fi, which is

1037
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 2: more space opera in a far flung future, and it's

1038
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 2: it's more like it more into fantasy. So I'm more

1039
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 2: sort of that kind of, oh, this could happen at

1040
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 2: the end of my street if things go badly wrong.

1041
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 2: I tend to respond more to that, I think as

1042
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 2: a viewer, and so that's probably why that's where we

1043
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 2: probably operate most strongly.

1044
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 1: Do you do you take a Do you try to

1045
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 1: meet with innovators in in in Silicon Valley and tech

1046
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,720
Speaker 1: entrepreneurs to try to find out what's coming in heaving?

1047
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:02,280
Speaker 1: Or are you is? Are you just sort of saying,

1048
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's possible, we'll start replacing the pieces of

1049
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: the brain and this is probably how we how we'll

1050
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 1: be able to stop you know, geoblastoma or whatever it is.

1051
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: I'll pack it out and be able to replace this.

1052
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: Is that just you guessing or do you just meek

1053
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: to experts that give you well, this could be what

1054
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: we do.

1055
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 2: It's predominantly me guessing. Basically, it's me guessing or extrapolating,

1056
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 2: or usually you just you're not even thinking of technology

1057
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 2: when you start thinking about it, you know, you're thinking

1058
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 2: of something else, and then you realize that you can

1059
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 2: use you can give It would almost be a supernatural story,

1060
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 2: except you can give it a sort of technological explanation.

1061
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 2: We did an episode last season. We did an episode

1062
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 2: called Joanie's Awful where it's a woman called Joan play

1063
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 2: by Annie Murphy, switches on the TV and season of

1064
00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 2: the streaming platform that's showing a drama, a dramatization of

1065
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 2: her life starring Salma Hayak, And that's a very Twilight

1066
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 2: Zone story in many ways. In the Twilight Zone it

1067
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 2: would have been like magic, or it would have been

1068
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 2: the uncanny. We can sort of say, it's AI deep

1069
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 2: fake videos, it's that, So you're sort of coming at

1070
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 2: it from that angle. I probably should go and speak

1071
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 2: to more sort of tech because sometimes there's things like

1072
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 2: sometimes there's things where I've put it in the episode,

1073
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 2: thinking I'm being very clever here, and then you realize

1074
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 2: that it's actually like the honey bees. We did an

1075
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 2: episode in season three called Hated in the Nation, which

1076
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: is where we first have these grown autonomous drone miniature

1077
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 2: honey bees that were going around replaced because I'd read

1078
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 2: something about honeybees dying out and colony collapse and then

1079
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: and then I thought, oh, well, what if you had

1080
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 2: little miniature drone ones that could fly around and pollinate flowers?

1081
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 2: And I thought I was being very clever and then

1082
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 2: discovered that I think that experiment had been running for.

1083
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: I would just say, are there stuff that you've done?

1084
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: You're like, oh wow, I didn't you know that. You

1085
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: just either that or you foreshadowed something.

1086
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 2: But well, the most unusual one, there's definitely okay. So

1087
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 2: we did. There's an episode we did back in season

1088
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 2: two called be Right Back, where it's Hailey Atwell and

1089
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 2: Donald Gleason and and Hailey plays this woman called Martha

1090
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 2: whose husband dies in an accident. This is it's almost

1091
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 2: it's almost a companion piece to common people this season.

1092
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 2: And anyway she is off the day she's missing him,

1093
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 2: she's discovers she's pregnant. She's desperate to just be able

1094
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 2: to if only he knew this, only she could talk

1095
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 2: to him. She's offered this service which allows her to

1096
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 2: communicate with him from and it's an AI that's based

1097
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 2: on his social media output. I didn't realize at the

1098
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 2: time that that was It felt to me like something

1099
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 2: that would become possible. I didn't realize how closely that

1100
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 2: mimics what.

1101
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: Logic and that's you know, oh, not only that, I

1102
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: happen to be very involved in various ways to how

1103
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: do we educate people about the Holocaust and things like that,

1104
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 1: And there's a take there. What they're going to do

1105
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: is they've taken all of these historical oral histories and

1106
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors have done and they're essentially going to generate

1107
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: even though they've passed on, they're still going to tell

1108
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: you their story and then you're going to be able

1109
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 1: to interact with them and have a conversation literally speak

1110
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: and respond, and it's going to be a large where

1111
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: you have a back and forth with a Holocaust survivor,

1112
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: you ask questions and the AI based on I mean,

1113
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 1: it's it's one of those At first you think it's dystopient,

1114
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: but you know what, that's an interesting you know, are

1115
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: we going to well Albert Einstein, Well, forget Albert Einstein,

1116
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: how about this because this is probably more recent because

1117
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 1: there's well, Steve Jobs teach a computer science class AI

1118
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 1: Steve teacher, computer science class in twenty thirty five.

1119
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 2: That's difficult, isn't it? Because what you're describing that, that's what,

1120
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,959
Speaker 2: that's the that's the that sounds like the high tech

1121
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 2: equivalent of it's almost saying. It's like when you you know,

1122
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 2: you could read the diaries of Samuel Peeps in the

1123
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 2: sort of whatever century and you get and suddenly that

1124
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 2: period of history becomes alive and you feel because you're

1125
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 2: hearing somebody's and then.

1126
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: What you think his voice might have looked like, and

1127
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 1: you have his image and then all of a sudden,

1128
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 1: there you go.

1129
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 2: I can see that that he's recounting what happened to him.

1130
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 2: If you're talking about rebuilt like Steve jobs. Would you

1131
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 2: would would he have left enough information behind for you

1132
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 2: to get his how he would innovate ideas and how

1133
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 2: he would create things. I don't know God really thought

1134
01:01:55,400 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 2: about the educational uses uh of that as a platform.

1135
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: But it's quite mean, I guess I look at the

1136
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors telling their story to children who can ask questions.

1137
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 1: That feels like, Okay, that's a good thing. You could

1138
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: see that tool, you know where does you know?

1139
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 2: Where?

1140
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: Where do you say okay, that's where we use it

1141
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: and that's it right? Like or where does that become weird? Right?

1142
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 1: Where does especially if you actually know that person, if

1143
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 1: that's your grandmother, are you having a different reaction?

1144
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 2: How do how does it work in terms of like

1145
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 2: if somebody how does it? What's the parameters for the conversation?

1146
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 2: What happens if somebody is just sort of talking about it?

1147
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 2: If for advice in your own life? And then because

1148
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 2: what you see very quickly when the people talk to

1149
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 2: like you know, chat mots effectively, is they get attached

1150
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 2: very quickly. You mean they can become confident very quickly.

1151
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, we wonder why why these By the way,

1152
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: we wonder why these Nigerian princes are so successful at

1153
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: getting money out of people, right, I mean it is

1154
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 1: it is amazing. We human beings are oddly trusting ah

1155
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: in isolated settings.

1156
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 2: But isn't that a good thing that we trust? Isn't

1157
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 2: that nice? Amound us?

1158
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 1: Isn't ye a take advantage of ye?

1159
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 2: Well, it's the it's that you don't want to become

1160
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 2: Why am I saying? You don't want to become too cynical?

1161
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 2: But it's not so so I can Again, it's it's

1162
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 2: interesting that you can. That's interesting. That's not that's the

1163
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 2: use I haven't really thought about. But it's bringing history alive,

1164
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 2: bringing history live and bringing and making it personal in

1165
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:42,959
Speaker 2: a way that that feels to me like that's yeah,

1166
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 2: that's that's interesting. But again, how do there's so many

1167
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 2: things to navigate there and so many ways that could

1168
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 2: kind of vary into places you didn't anticipate. That's that's

1169
01:03:57,600 --> 01:03:59,439
Speaker 2: the sort of you see. That's this is why tech

1170
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 2: companies I think, like what you were saying. Sometimes when

1171
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 2: occasionally when I've like spoken at sort of events where

1172
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 2: there's a bit like my advice whenever I'm asked or

1173
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 2: what should tech companies do? I think employ comedy writers.

1174
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:19,439
Speaker 2: It's my advice. Employ neurotic comedy writers who are going

1175
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 2: to horror writers or just dramatic writers. Employ them to

1176
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:26,840
Speaker 2: sit in a room and work out the worst way

1177
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 2: what are.

1178
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 1: The worst ways that people?

1179
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 2: What was the worst that could happen? Because I think

1180
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 2: often people who people who just people who innovate in

1181
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 2: a different way, they probably have to blank that out

1182
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 2: when they're like on. Some inventors probably have to not

1183
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 2: think about that too.

1184
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 1: I think in order to push forward right the good,

1185
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 1: I always worry about this with Silicon Valley. I think

1186
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 1: right now there is a movement in Silicon Valley where

1187
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 1: they think we humans are standing in the way of

1188
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: their progress, right right where we as human beings simply

1189
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: you know, if we just get out of the way, right,

1190
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: democracy awkward.

1191
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 2: Breaks on the wonderful digital utopia that they will lusher in.

1192
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 2: If we could just shut up and lie down right,

1193
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 2: let the computery steam roller just plow all over us.

1194
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 2: That's the losing side of what the point of it

1195
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 2: all is, isn't it correct?

1196
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: Most of it makes us our lives better rather than

1197
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: essentially replacing us. But let me get one more thing,

1198
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: let me get you out of here. We brought back

1199
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 1: the dire Wolf, and I'll be honest with you, and

1200
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: that I feel like that story came out just when

1201
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 1: your season hit and there was a minute I'm like,

1202
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 1: are we making this up? Is this like sometimes like

1203
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: where we're headed with our abilities here and it's like, granted,

1204
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: this is Jurassic Park, right, this is Michael Crichton. Michael

1205
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 1: Crichton was thinking about this stuff, who I also think,

1206
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: weirdly is sort of underappreciated in his sort of ability

1207
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: to sort of see some dystopian things down there.

1208
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 2: Again, it's really yes, it's really great speculative like do

1209
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 2: me like just some great sort of yeah and tied

1210
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 2: to really actually stories.

1211
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: But here we are with the dire warmf and you're

1212
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: just said there going, yeah, there's not going to be

1213
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 1: an unintended consequence to this.

1214
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 2: Geesus. I do, I think so, But it's it's you

1215
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 2: can't again. It's like I am not a Lowe. I

1216
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 2: can't embrace the I'm not the like I said, I'm

1217
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 2: probably in a worried centrist when it comes to the

1218
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 2: tech in the future, and that I am an admirer

1219
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 2: of technology, I'm a I appreciate it, I'm awestruck by it.

1220
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 2: I like it, I stear it, and I fear the

1221
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 2: consequences of us clumsily misusing it. But that's not a

1222
01:06:55,480 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 2: reason to not It's it's just really and the problem

1223
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 2: is we are we're living in it again. It's we're

1224
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 2: living through if the printing press cause all sorts of ruptures,

1225
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 2: we're living through a sort of accelerated process of that.

1226
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:18,959
Speaker 2: But again, it will feel normal, is it like it's felt?

1227
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 2: How long would you say things have felt dizzyingly futuristic?

1228
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 1: On other lines, on your age, I think we're in

1229
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 1: addle age, and I think when you're yes, I would

1230
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:30,760
Speaker 1: say middle age is weirdly peak wisdom, both good and bad.

1231
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 1: Right you sort of you've learned enough life lessons to

1232
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 1: know what you shouldn't be doing. But you're not yet.

1233
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: You haven't lost it, like you know, at some point

1234
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: I always want to know what age it is. Is

1235
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: it's seventy two? Is it seventy where you start to

1236
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 1: you no longer are sort of grounded, right, You're.

1237
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 2: Lost that you've lost that you're not have you not?

1238
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:52,439
Speaker 2: Haven't got the benefit of findsight and well you haven't

1239
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 2: got the benefit of wisdom. You're you're just you're just

1240
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 2: sort of setting your ways up and.

1241
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,439
Speaker 1: And you because you know you're you're I know you're

1242
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: If you were an animal, you'd already be put up

1243
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 1: to pasture. I think that's what happens, right, That's something,

1244
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 1: it's something there you get.

1245
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 2: There's a day you wake up one day.

1246
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like you right, like you know, because you

1247
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 1: know it's.

1248
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 2: Like mirror con sense, you're outlining here, it's one day,

1249
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:21,720
Speaker 2: it's like you you get. But if you actually know

1250
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 2: what day you.

1251
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 1: But if you know the day, like I always say,

1252
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: at what point am I going to want to go

1253
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 1: to the airport four hours in advance? Like my mother

1254
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:34,800
Speaker 1: never was that person and then suddenly she's she's listening. Now,

1255
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure, Mom, I love you, but you always want

1256
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 1: to be at the airport way too long. Why you

1257
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 1: want to sit there so long? But I assume when

1258
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 1: I'm seventy or so, I'm going to be worried about

1259
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 1: that too.

1260
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 2: I you know what, I've always been. I am that person,

1261
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 2: and I've always been that. I'm the person who has

1262
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,360
Speaker 2: to get to the airport really really early.

1263
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,680
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm like, I'm afraid of having any downtime at

1264
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 1: the airport. I think I'm wasting time.

1265
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:01,800
Speaker 2: No you're not, No, because no, because well, I think

1266
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 2: it's because I used to be a really nervous flyer

1267
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 2: and it was the one to me. So I think

1268
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:07,600
Speaker 2: it's that it's a control.

1269
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 1: The acclimator. You needed to get acclimated.

1270
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, one, I wanted to, yes, exactly, so I needed

1271
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 2: to feel like it wasn't suddenly sprung on me that

1272
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 2: I had to run and catch a plane. But no,

1273
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 2: So I again, I think that it's things. It feels

1274
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 2: like they're sort of Disney and pace of change, and

1275
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 2: that's incredibly destabilizing that I have no idea how it's

1276
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:32,960
Speaker 2: going to pan out. But yes, my kids, I've got

1277
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 2: a thirteen year old and an eleven year old, both boys,

1278
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:37,680
Speaker 2: and they it's all normal to all of this in

1279
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 2: their stride. Yeah, they totally like.

1280
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:42,639
Speaker 1: Minor eighteen and twenty one, and it's you know, it's

1281
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:45,800
Speaker 1: all very normal. And I look at some of this stuff, going, boy,

1282
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 1: this is abnormal. But they don't know my normal. You know,

1283
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 1: they didn't know this stuff. You know, they didn't know

1284
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: the fax machine. You know whatever it is, you know, yeah.

1285
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 2: So they'll be much better at you hope. Well, those

1286
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 2: are the things so obviously, because the next is that

1287
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 2: the next thing, apart from AI coming to take all

1288
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 2: odd jobs or make a super bad like, is you know,

1289
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:12,479
Speaker 2: a sort of huge wave of sort of misinformation in

1290
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:17,639
Speaker 2: video just dividing us even more than we are already

1291
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:20,800
Speaker 2: where there's already competing versions of reality and those are

1292
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:24,320
Speaker 2: both now going to have twenty four hour visuals to

1293
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:27,240
Speaker 2: go with them. That would you blame places?

1294
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 1: Who's who that actor here? Is it political? Is it

1295
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 1: political leaders? Or textieos? Like? Who's who's to blame for

1296
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 1: this moment we're living in where it's been exploited like

1297
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 1: this the exploiters or the ones that make the tool

1298
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 1: for the exploitation.

1299
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 2: Is it all right to blame everyone? Or bug?

1300
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:44,640
Speaker 1: I think it is?

1301
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:47,760
Speaker 2: I think it's it's not, because again it wouldn't it's

1302
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 2: it's But again, will that mean that the next generation?

1303
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,559
Speaker 2: Will it mean just that? What happens when? Because at

1304
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 2: the same time, also you're seeing videos where you know,

1305
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 2: someone could you could see a video where somebody turned

1306
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:02,680
Speaker 2: into as to get your maples sort of thing, So

1307
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 2: you know that things can be like it can be

1308
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 2: surreal and strange but completely photographically convincing. But you know

1309
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 2: it couldn't have so. Well, the next generation just learned

1310
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 2: to not trust anything at all.

1311
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 1: Well, that's my great fear, is that everybody's going to

1312
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:18,120
Speaker 1: turn it. You know, if you ever talk to a

1313
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 1: Russian in Moscow, they'll say, I don't know what to believe.

1314
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 1: People that live in Moscow don't believe anything, right, because

1315
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 1: they've been so and in some ways they know this

1316
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:30,320
Speaker 1: though they're educated to know enough to know, Oh yeah,

1317
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 1: you know, I don't trust anything I read. So I

1318
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 1: get that, and I worry a I don't know. And

1319
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 1: my great fear of AI is that we can actually

1320
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 1: erase history. Now you know, there was there was supposedly

1321
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:48,600
Speaker 1: a bunch of Russian propagandas who were trying to infiltrate

1322
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 1: these chatbots to sort of uh uh replace Ukrainian to

1323
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 1: try to essentially alter the history of Russia's relationship with

1324
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 1: Ukraine in history, and then you create it over time.

1325
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:06,639
Speaker 1: You know, if you right, is it right? Is it right?

1326
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:10,679
Speaker 1: You can actually erase historical events, right, And it's whether

1327
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:14,719
Speaker 1: that you know, that's the Holocaust whether that's something something

1328
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 1: else that that that distill. Yeah, that's terrifying.

1329
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:25,120
Speaker 2: That's terrifying. And I don't know, I don't know how

1330
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 2: that isn't I hate to say lightly, but I don't

1331
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 2: know how that.

1332
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: Well, if you have the Chinese government controls information, so

1333
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 1: you know there, you know, there's no Tanum and Square,

1334
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 1: there's no history of what happened to Tianam and Square.

1335
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 1: If you live in China, well, and there's already a lot.

1336
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 2: Of people who believe we're already there and then everything

1337
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:45,639
Speaker 2: is a lie and then every like so so yeah,

1338
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:49,000
Speaker 2: I don't uh no, that worries me. If there's no

1339
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:55,760
Speaker 2: consensus on what is real or has been real, how

1340
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 2: do we cope with giant cinmate problems that are going

1341
01:12:59,920 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 2: to them all the way? How do we cope with

1342
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 2: when there's a big when a big problem. You know, I'm,

1343
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 2: like I said, I'm an anxious sort of I could

1344
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 2: be an anxious apocalyptic warrior. When the pandemic happened, I

1345
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 2: was sort of comparatively calm because I thought we were

1346
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 2: handling it quite well well.

1347
01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:24,080
Speaker 1: Like I thank you for saying that. I think that too.

1348
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 1: I know we all look back and there was lots

1349
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 1: of COVID. It wasn't it wasn't like it was a laugh,

1350
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 1: but it was. Yeah, but the globe, I mean, here's this,

1351
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:36,800
Speaker 1: here's this event that all nine billion people on this

1352
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:42,360
Speaker 1: planet experienced together. And that's something that's unusual if you

1353
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 1: think about where we all, you know, everybody had had

1354
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:48,800
Speaker 1: experienced this in some way, whether you live in a

1355
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 1: very uh in a very sort of uh frankly urban life,

1356
01:13:55,680 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 1: rural life, reclusive life, it didn't matter, right, everybody had

1357
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 1: to deal with this.

1358
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 2: Well, we may we all had a reclusive life, right

1359
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 2: we you.

1360
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: Know, we proved it could have been total breakdown of

1361
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:12,679
Speaker 1: society and we didn't have that, and exact we should

1362
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 1: be happy with ourselves for that.

1363
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:17,720
Speaker 2: It was. It was that side of things, was that

1364
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 2: we were we were all worried and we all you know,

1365
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:27,760
Speaker 2: you generally speaking, people were it felt looking out for

1366
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 2: each other. You had the young staying indoors to protect

1367
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:32,080
Speaker 2: the elderly. You had sort of you know, you had

1368
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 2: actually more.

1369
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 1: And there was some creaky thus all about it, and yeah,

1370
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:38,839
Speaker 1: but they didn't like take matters into their own hands.

1371
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 1: You know, Yes, we had bad arguments and stuff, but

1372
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:44,640
Speaker 1: within a civilized guardrail.

1373
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 2: There's more arguments about it now, it's it's it's but

1374
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:50,839
Speaker 2: it's it's, it's it's.

1375
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:53,479
Speaker 1: So in a way, you're right, it's hopeful that it

1376
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 1: was a hopeful response.

1377
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 2: In a way, it was sort of like it wasn't

1378
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 2: that it wasn't you know what I mean, We we

1379
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 2: we So you sort of hope that we when faced

1380
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:06,800
Speaker 2: because we are result Again, I'm not the voice of optimism,

1381
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:11,760
Speaker 2: but you know, we are pretty incredible creatures. We do.

1382
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:17,200
Speaker 1: I think we're so resilient, were good, and so so you.

1383
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:21,799
Speaker 2: So we're just going to have to navigate that wild

1384
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:26,759
Speaker 2: and so so how we I don't know how we counter,

1385
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:31,160
Speaker 2: how we counter a sort of cynical destruction of all

1386
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,640
Speaker 2: sort of consensus on what reality is. I don't I

1387
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:36,760
Speaker 2: don't know. You sort of have to hope that we

1388
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:41,280
Speaker 2: won't just end up tearing each other's flesh and fighting

1389
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 2: in the streets sort of thing. You have to hope

1390
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:46,679
Speaker 2: that And again, we did we didn't do we could

1391
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 2: have done. The pandemic could have been a get load

1392
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:53,719
Speaker 2: worse than we could have behaved in a much more

1393
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 2: venal way.

1394
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:59,320
Speaker 1: Charlie, I have to say, I'm so happy you have

1395
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 1: this uptim stick streaking you. I was worried or I

1396
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:04,639
Speaker 1: just got.

1397
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 2: To no, I think we don't get me wrong. I like,

1398
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 2: I can absolutely have total moments of complete and utter

1399
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:16,880
Speaker 2: staring into the abyss sort of two and wait awake

1400
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 2: at four am, you know, the sort of carnival of

1401
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:22,520
Speaker 2: horrible thoughts going through your head, and you worry desperately

1402
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:25,160
Speaker 2: about your children, and you worry desperately about the future

1403
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 2: and where are things going. So I can absolutely do

1404
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 2: all of that. And and oddly the more of us

1405
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:34,200
Speaker 2: who are worried, the better.

1406
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:36,679
Speaker 1: I agree. That was agree.

1407
01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 2: I think. I think that was the thing with the

1408
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 2: pandemic that really struck me was I was. I was.

1409
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:43,640
Speaker 2: I'm one of these people who as soon as the

1410
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:46,439
Speaker 2: first reports I remember I was on holiday over Christmas

1411
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 2: when that happened. There were reports of like the system, there's.

1412
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 1: There's something going around, something.

1413
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 2: On as a virus, something respiratory illness in China and

1414
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And I thought, that's going to come in,

1415
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:58,519
Speaker 2: that's going to sweep. That's good, We're going to get there.

1416
01:16:58,600 --> 01:17:01,280
Speaker 2: I don't like the look at that, and I was

1417
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 2: really worried about it. At the point when everyone was

1418
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:08,360
Speaker 2: worried about it, I can kind of the dread in

1419
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:11,479
Speaker 2: me drops a little, because there's nothing more scary than

1420
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:14,360
Speaker 2: thinking everyone else is being blather and complacent about something

1421
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:17,439
Speaker 2: that's worrying you. It's the wasp, but the picnic that

1422
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:20,040
Speaker 2: no one else is. I'm the one who can't relax.

1423
01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 2: If there's one wasp of the picnic, and if everyone's

1424
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 2: worried about the wasp, you move the bloody picnic blanket

1425
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:29,360
Speaker 2: somewhere else, or or or someone catches it in a glass,

1426
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 2: And so you kind of have to hope that its

1427
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 2: survival instinct will realize that we need more of us,

1428
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:41,560
Speaker 2: really as many of us as possible to survive, and

1429
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 2: that I don't know, don't I don't know, I don't know.

1430
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:48,720
Speaker 1: Are you Are you going to say? Is this is

1431
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:51,520
Speaker 1: this ever stop in your head? Do you think you'll always.

1432
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:57,240
Speaker 2: Be the show or the I would I'd like to

1433
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 2: think it's something that can keep going, can keep morphing,

1434
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:05,120
Speaker 2: can keep We've done we keep you know, I keep changing.

1435
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:08,960
Speaker 2: I keep doing different types of episodes. We've done a

1436
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:11,559
Speaker 2: sequel for the first time, we've done an interactive one.

1437
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 2: A few years ago. You can do a feature length

1438
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 2: ones and short ones. So I kind of think it's

1439
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,240
Speaker 2: something that can be oddly, that can be very reactive

1440
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:28,639
Speaker 2: to what's going on. It's hopefully it's a weird It's

1441
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:30,639
Speaker 2: like I said, it's a very odd show to do.

1442
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,600
Speaker 2: I'm aware that also. It's a bit like being in

1443
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:35,080
Speaker 2: a band where we did a load of punk singles

1444
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,479
Speaker 2: early on, and so you get some sort of fans

1445
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 2: who just want you to do punk singles, but we

1446
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:41,880
Speaker 2: also did some that are a bit more like big

1447
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:44,400
Speaker 2: love ballads or something that we're also really popular, and

1448
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 2: so now you're kind of trying to so I have

1449
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 2: to not I think my mental trick is to not

1450
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:54,000
Speaker 2: think too much about what fans of the show expect

1451
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:55,920
Speaker 2: and just write and write one.

1452
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 1: That audience audience capture. Right, you have to be worried

1453
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 1: that you're worried that are you making something to please

1454
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:05,880
Speaker 1: the audience versus or you making something to advalance your mind,

1455
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 1: your thought.

1456
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:09,080
Speaker 2: We have we have because we because it's we don't

1457
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:11,280
Speaker 2: tend to have the same characters from episode to episode.

1458
01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:13,360
Speaker 2: We have less of that and that people don't like.

1459
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 2: Usually our characters are absolutely broken by the time the

1460
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:22,519
Speaker 2: credits roll, so people don't quite it's a different dynamic,

1461
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 2: I guess from on a big you know, like Game

1462
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:28,559
Speaker 2: of Thrones or or you know, like some huge show.

1463
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:30,639
Speaker 1: So it just sounds like you'll always have an ambition

1464
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:33,600
Speaker 1: to keep this going, and they'll always be and certainly.

1465
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:35,640
Speaker 2: As long as people well, as long as that I

1466
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 2: can keep coming up with ideas and people keep wanting

1467
01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:41,240
Speaker 2: to look at them, and as long as I don't

1468
01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:44,120
Speaker 2: get out competed by some AI, as long as they're

1469
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:47,759
Speaker 2: not just staring into some folographic box in a few years,

1470
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:50,640
Speaker 2: like just shouting and it's just staring at them and

1471
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:54,040
Speaker 2: looking at their facial expression and thinking, here's an image

1472
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:55,720
Speaker 2: you'll like to see for the next two seconds. And

1473
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:59,679
Speaker 2: they're just sort of seeing some kind of constant, deep fake,

1474
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 2: three dimensional TikTok that's being blasted at them, which is

1475
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:07,360
Speaker 2: probably ninety five percent certain to happen. As long as.

1476
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:11,240
Speaker 1: I'm worried, you're just created. I'm worried somebody is going

1477
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:14,240
Speaker 1: to start dumb dumbs really soon. I mean, in some ways,

1478
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:16,679
Speaker 1: only fans is kind of like that.

1479
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 2: Again, we did this thing. We did this thing, yeah,

1480
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:23,440
Speaker 2: in the in the Common People episode, like Chris O'Dowd's

1481
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:26,080
Speaker 2: character Mike has to pay He just to try and

1482
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 2: pay for the subscription by kind of debasing himself on

1483
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,920
Speaker 2: this online platform. Within Again, I didn't realize that there

1484
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 2: was as soon as the episode came out at a

1485
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:38,280
Speaker 2: bunch of people went, oh, that's this. Yeah, I can't

1486
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 2: remember what it was called. That's this thing where people

1487
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:42,840
Speaker 2: were doing that for sort of bitcoin or something. And

1488
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 2: so nothing new under the sun.

1489
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:49,439
Speaker 1: There's no new ideas. There's just better packaged ones. Right.

1490
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:52,839
Speaker 2: That's very cynical but probably accurate.

1491
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 1: That's that's what chat TPT will eventually tease it. Hey,

1492
01:20:57,120 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 1: without the pandemic, we don't specialize in doing these credible

1493
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 1: zoom telecast now oh yeah, half of what it is

1494
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:06,880
Speaker 1: right like, we will look back at this moment it

1495
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 1: actually created.

1496
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:10,759
Speaker 2: It was a moonshot. Yes, it was like a moonshot,

1497
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:13,600
Speaker 2: but it was like having to come up with ballpoint pains.

1498
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 1: And everybody had a come up.

1499
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:19,439
Speaker 2: They astaurants need to be right in space. So yeah,

1500
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:23,320
Speaker 2: and it made Yeah, it made all sorts of things.

1501
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 2: It was a big but also I don't think we

1502
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:28,719
Speaker 2: still unpacked actually psychologically what it did to us all, oh.

1503
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 1: Well, look, I you know when we see we're seeing

1504
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:35,920
Speaker 1: in schools with kids. I mean, look, there's no one

1505
01:21:36,040 --> 01:21:39,599
Speaker 1: saying we're saying it was great. No, no, I don't

1506
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:41,240
Speaker 1: you know. I know there was bad, but it was

1507
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:44,320
Speaker 1: sort of like, hey, the more important thing is we

1508
01:21:44,360 --> 01:21:44,880
Speaker 1: adapt it.

1509
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:45,800
Speaker 2: Right.

1510
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:48,799
Speaker 1: We adapted, we survived, and we ought to at least

1511
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:51,640
Speaker 1: not sell ourselves short on that.

1512
01:21:52,240 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 2: No, we're a bit better than again. It's like the

1513
01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:01,600
Speaker 2: thing that struck me it was how the number of

1514
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:04,000
Speaker 2: times you'd see it. And I've written a zombie movie

1515
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:07,160
Speaker 2: where it's like, you know, within society collapses within twenty

1516
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 2: minutes of this sort of calarity, and that isn't what happened,

1517
01:22:12,479 --> 01:22:15,839
Speaker 2: like in that in the pandemic scenario, that isn't what happened.

1518
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:19,640
Speaker 2: We were out in Britain, we were out banging saucepans

1519
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:24,240
Speaker 2: every Thursday in support of the NHS, although I did

1520
01:22:24,280 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 2: read somebody was saying I think that was actually us

1521
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 2: banging the saucepans to sort of let other people know

1522
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:32,600
Speaker 2: we were still there, which made me quite sad what

1523
01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:34,679
Speaker 2: I read that it was probably a more accurate read.

1524
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:38,400
Speaker 1: Charlie, I will have You've been very generous with your time.

1525
01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:42,599
Speaker 1: Black Mirror is just a you know, it's I don't

1526
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:44,680
Speaker 1: think there's any aid could have come up with. This

1527
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:46,920
Speaker 1: is a reminder that it takes, yes, it takes a

1528
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 1: creative brain to come up with ideas.

1529
01:22:49,200 --> 01:22:52,040
Speaker 2: I hope, So, I hope we'll always want messy humans

1530
01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:55,640
Speaker 2: in our yes creative soup. I know if that analogy

1531
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:57,360
Speaker 2: makes sense, but that's what I've said.

1532
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 1: Well, it's brilliant and you mean to Whether you mean

1533
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:05,240
Speaker 1: to have us think in dystopian ways or not, the

1534
01:23:05,360 --> 01:23:08,599
Speaker 1: point is you make everybody think, and that's awesome. That matters.

1535
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:11,000
Speaker 1: That's all to me. That matters. You're making us think.

1536
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 2: Good. Thank you very much, Thank you sir. That's very kind.

1537
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:17,280
Speaker 1: Well there you go. We got to end on an

1538
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 1: upbeat note. Little hope in an anas all right, thank you,

1539
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 1: Thank you, a pleasure, great to talk with you. Thank you.

1540
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 1: Trouble So. I told you you'd enjoy that interview with

1541
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:38,680
Speaker 1: Charlie Brooker. He is fascinating. That mind is racing. And

1542
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:43,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if you had RoboCop and twilight Zone.

1543
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure many of you assumed twilight Zone and rob

1544
01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:48,639
Speaker 1: Serling Rod Sterling was Serling was one of his one

1545
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:52,840
Speaker 1: of his inspirations. But you bet you didn't see RoboCop coming,

1546
01:23:53,160 --> 01:23:55,280
Speaker 1: And the minute he said it, I knew exactly what

1547
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:58,799
Speaker 1: he meant. Go check it out. The first RoboCop was

1548
01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:01,439
Speaker 1: was sort of more innovative than I think people gave

1549
01:24:01,479 --> 01:24:03,400
Speaker 1: it credit for at the time. So anyway, it was

1550
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:06,559
Speaker 1: just I learned a lot, and frankly, it only makes

1551
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:09,920
Speaker 1: me enjoy the show even more. I hope you got

1552
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:12,680
Speaker 1: a lot out of it too. All right, let's do

1553
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:19,640
Speaker 1: a little last Chuck as Chuck. All right, here's my

1554
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:24,160
Speaker 1: first question. This one comes from Chaz Latore and he

1555
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:26,959
Speaker 1: writes this, You advocate news in every small town community.

1556
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:29,920
Speaker 1: That's interesting, But if news was generated locally, wouldn't it

1557
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:31,919
Speaker 1: just turned into an echo chamber for the local community.

1558
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:34,000
Speaker 1: For example, I come from a very left leaning town

1559
01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:37,080
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania. Wouldn't their news cast just be an echo

1560
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:39,439
Speaker 1: chamber where the word Trump would never even make it

1561
01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 1: to a news broadcast. It seems like it would just

1562
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:43,519
Speaker 1: be a lot of local Fox news channels that echo

1563
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:45,640
Speaker 1: what the local community wants to hear. I would think

1564
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,040
Speaker 1: a broader national broadcast would be more balanced. What am

1565
01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:51,639
Speaker 1: I missing here? Well, there is no broad cast balance

1566
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:55,120
Speaker 1: right as we know. If you're looking for national news,

1567
01:24:55,760 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 1: you're going to go and you're looking for news, you're

1568
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:01,280
Speaker 1: going to go where you have a where you share

1569
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:06,760
Speaker 1: some intellectual whether it's some intellectual agreement. What I'm advocating

1570
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:11,120
Speaker 1: is not local versions of Fox or MSNBC. That is

1571
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:14,400
Speaker 1: not what I'm advocating. What I'm advocating is that we

1572
01:25:14,479 --> 01:25:17,760
Speaker 1: basically need a different you know, what local news was

1573
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:20,719
Speaker 1: at its best, and I understand that some people probably

1574
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:24,639
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's been twenty five years since we've

1575
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:28,120
Speaker 1: had a healthy local news ecosystem. Arguably, so some of

1576
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:30,800
Speaker 1: you may not have been around or didn't fully appreciate it.

1577
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:37,240
Speaker 1: But what I would say is we need more service journalism,

1578
01:25:37,320 --> 01:25:41,440
Speaker 1: and local journalism was more in service of the community

1579
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:45,840
Speaker 1: than national journalism. National journalism is about essentially, you know,

1580
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:49,280
Speaker 1: helping you be a citizen, your civics, but local journalism

1581
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:51,799
Speaker 1: at its best is about helping you live your life.

1582
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:55,080
Speaker 1: And that's what I mean. What we need is revitalize

1583
01:25:55,080 --> 01:26:00,559
Speaker 1: community journalism that is focused more on helping you live

1584
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 1: your life, focused on how to save you money at

1585
01:26:02,479 --> 01:26:06,320
Speaker 1: the grocery store, how to save you money at very

1586
01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 1: you know, uh, to take your kids out to eat,

1587
01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:11,479
Speaker 1: you know, if there's a better night of the week.

1588
01:26:12,920 --> 01:26:19,240
Speaker 1: It's it's being essentially almost like a community liaison. My

1589
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:22,360
Speaker 1: vision for these small town and all of these community

1590
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:25,639
Speaker 1: information systems is that you become the information helped ask

1591
01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:29,120
Speaker 1: for your community. And that could mean helping people find

1592
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:31,080
Speaker 1: out when the high school game, when the high school

1593
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:34,280
Speaker 1: lacrosse game starts this afternoon, helping people where to find it.

1594
01:26:34,360 --> 01:26:36,559
Speaker 1: I think all I want these places to be the

1595
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:40,400
Speaker 1: streaming home for all of youth sports and in high

1596
01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:42,879
Speaker 1: school sports. This is what I believe can be the

1597
01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:46,160
Speaker 1: glue to bring a community together. I also see sports

1598
01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:48,200
Speaker 1: as a way that you can sort of cut through

1599
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:52,120
Speaker 1: red and blue because most you know, a pothole isn't

1600
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:56,840
Speaker 1: Republican or Democrat. It's a pothole, you know. So that's

1601
01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 1: that's that's what I'm that's my belief here. That's what

1602
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:05,519
Speaker 1: I know people tell me that they want whenever you ask,

1603
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:09,519
Speaker 1: this is what people feel like is missing. So I

1604
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:11,160
Speaker 1: am a believer a little bit in the field of

1605
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:14,000
Speaker 1: dreams here. If we build it, they will come. But

1606
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 1: it needs to be Journalism that is focused on helping

1607
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:19,519
Speaker 1: people live their life and as always say where's the

1608
01:27:19,640 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 1: cheap food? Give me some micro forecasting for my community

1609
01:27:24,120 --> 01:27:25,960
Speaker 1: versus the one right next door when it comes to

1610
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 1: the weather, access to all the important youth and local

1611
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:33,680
Speaker 1: sports that I that I care about, and oh, by

1612
01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:37,479
Speaker 1: the way, who's corrupted my city council? And so. But

1613
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:40,960
Speaker 1: it's actually that part is the end part of things, right.

1614
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:43,599
Speaker 1: You know, people who want to be informed are always

1615
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:46,680
Speaker 1: going to get informed. It's about everybody else in the community.

1616
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:48,439
Speaker 1: Those are folks that are just trying to get by,

1617
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 1: get live their life. Either they're not news junkies, or

1618
01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:54,920
Speaker 1: they've got other things in their life that take priority,

1619
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:58,920
Speaker 1: like making a living, educating their kids, et cetera. How

1620
01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:03,080
Speaker 1: about coverage for that? Right, that's the missing piece of

1621
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:06,920
Speaker 1: this is that it's not about creating more local political news,

1622
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:10,519
Speaker 1: although I hope we get that too, but I'm starting

1623
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 1: in the places where I know there's collective agreement and

1624
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:17,040
Speaker 1: when I know there's collective need. Jack, I appreciate the

1625
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:22,120
Speaker 1: question and love the skepticism because it gave me a

1626
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:25,320
Speaker 1: chance to push back. This comes from Josh in Ohio

1627
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:31,240
Speaker 1: and Josh Wrights You've talked a lot about the possibility

1628
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:33,720
Speaker 1: of the Republican Party splitting between more traditional Republicans and

1629
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 1: mega Republicans. If that were to happen, who would be

1630
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:37,960
Speaker 1: in the traditional wing? It seems like MAGA is completely

1631
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:40,519
Speaker 1: taken over the party, So name some names. Look, I

1632
01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:43,280
Speaker 1: think MAGA has taken over the sort of the organizational

1633
01:28:43,320 --> 01:28:46,040
Speaker 1: structure of the party, There's no doubt about it. But

1634
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:48,799
Speaker 1: I mean, look, the people that are an elective office

1635
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:52,479
Speaker 1: who are clearly not MAGA Republicans but essentially are trying

1636
01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:55,360
Speaker 1: to be MAGA adjacent, right, And I think many of

1637
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:57,840
Speaker 1: the MAGA adjacent folks would prefer to be in the

1638
01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:01,759
Speaker 1: pre Donald Trump party, people like Tom Cotton. That's people

1639
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:06,679
Speaker 1: like Tom Tillis, Bill Cassidy, Lisa Murkowski for sure, right, Romney,

1640
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:11,800
Speaker 1: Chris Sununu. So I think it, you know, to me,

1641
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:16,559
Speaker 1: you you know, I might even say Lindsay Graham, you know,

1642
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:18,360
Speaker 1: although I think he's a little more finger in the

1643
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:21,960
Speaker 1: wind of where our South Carolina Republican's going to go

1644
01:29:22,040 --> 01:29:24,760
Speaker 1: is where he's going to go. But and I think

1645
01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:27,320
Speaker 1: some of these Republicans that have sort of gone back

1646
01:29:27,320 --> 01:29:29,560
Speaker 1: and forth with that, But I think there really is

1647
01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:33,639
Speaker 1: a question about is MAGA bigger than Trump? Right? That's

1648
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:36,360
Speaker 1: still the basic question. Is it bigger than Trump or not?

1649
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:42,200
Speaker 1: And does a Trump junior brand hold MAGA together and

1650
01:29:42,280 --> 01:29:45,639
Speaker 1: keep it on its I don't know, right, I think

1651
01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:48,479
Speaker 1: that's an open question and one we're going to find

1652
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:52,599
Speaker 1: out sooner rather than later. But I think it's I think,

1653
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:56,760
Speaker 1: you know, really it does split along the you know,

1654
01:29:56,880 --> 01:30:01,440
Speaker 1: do you believe in the in a sort of internationalist

1655
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:05,519
Speaker 1: view that ultimately America is an example to set that

1656
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:10,040
Speaker 1: we ought to spread our ideals of freedom, free trade, democracy,

1657
01:30:10,120 --> 01:30:13,200
Speaker 1: things like that, a free market, that that is something

1658
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:15,920
Speaker 1: we should spread around the world, which I think is

1659
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:19,519
Speaker 1: in part some of the free market intellectual thinking in

1660
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 1: this sort of more traditional sense of the Republican Party.

1661
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:26,160
Speaker 1: I do think that where there is alignment is in

1662
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:29,080
Speaker 1: cultural conservatism. So I think that that will continue to

1663
01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:33,840
Speaker 1: be the through line that keeps this coalition together. But

1664
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:35,720
Speaker 1: if you're asking me to name names, those are the

1665
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:38,960
Speaker 1: names I would go to, all right. This one comes

1666
01:30:38,960 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 1: from Judith Workman. Her question, is it possible that the

1667
01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:43,840
Speaker 1: roller coaster that we have been on for the last

1668
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:46,760
Speaker 1: few days, meaning the stock market, be simply a way

1669
01:30:46,800 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 1: to manipulate the economy for Trump and others in the

1670
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:50,839
Speaker 1: regime to bring the market down so they can purchase

1671
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:53,439
Speaker 1: more stocks, etc. And then bring the market back up

1672
01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:57,720
Speaker 1: to increase their personal Well, well, Judith, look, you're not

1673
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:00,519
Speaker 1: the only person who thinks this. There's no doubt there

1674
01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:04,320
Speaker 1: are people that are making money manipulating you know, who

1675
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 1: know who may have an insider knowledge of where things

1676
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:12,479
Speaker 1: are going. But no, I don't think there is a

1677
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:15,559
Speaker 1: large chunk of people trying to do that, you know.

1678
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:18,479
Speaker 1: I do think there's the crypto community, particularly in the

1679
01:31:18,560 --> 01:31:21,479
Speaker 1: in the twenty four election. I think there's quite a

1680
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:23,680
Speaker 1: few people that are invest that are long on some

1681
01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:28,400
Speaker 1: crypto investments, that are desperately hoping that they have value

1682
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:31,120
Speaker 1: and they're worried that it won't have value and are

1683
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:34,800
Speaker 1: counting on Donald Trump to give them value. But I'm

1684
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 1: not sure I'm there on the full fledged stock market

1685
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:44,879
Speaker 1: manipulation because you know it, perhaps there's some short term traders,

1686
01:31:45,120 --> 01:31:47,880
Speaker 1: and if we had a more functioning SEC, maybe there'd

1687
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:51,519
Speaker 1: be some legitimate investigations into this, But sadly, we don't

1688
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:54,639
Speaker 1: have a an SEC that is truly independent right now

1689
01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 1: that I think should be looking at these things, you know,

1690
01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:02,880
Speaker 1: especially in the world of Donald Trump, who you know,

1691
01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:06,280
Speaker 1: he everybody, everybody sort of has the combination. I always

1692
01:32:06,360 --> 01:32:11,639
Speaker 1: joke Donald Trump is kind of like that Elaine character

1693
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:14,000
Speaker 1: in Seinfeld when it comes to the vault. If you

1694
01:32:14,040 --> 01:32:17,000
Speaker 1: remember that, and Jerry Seinfeld used to say, Oh, everybody's

1695
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:19,080
Speaker 1: got the combination. It was Hennessy, you know. I think

1696
01:32:19,120 --> 01:32:21,840
Speaker 1: that was the brand of liquor that all of a

1697
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:25,040
Speaker 1: sudden she'd tell you everything she had. You know, Donald Trump,

1698
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:27,759
Speaker 1: he's made it clear if you want inside her access,

1699
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:29,800
Speaker 1: pay two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and come be

1700
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:32,080
Speaker 1: a member of mar Lago or come do this with

1701
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:35,280
Speaker 1: crypto like, there is always access to him, and you

1702
01:32:35,439 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 1: might accidentally get a tip that can help you. But

1703
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:42,320
Speaker 1: sometimes Trump's saying stuff that he wants to happen and

1704
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen. And sometimes he says stuff that does

1705
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:47,640
Speaker 1: happen and you could have made money on it. But

1706
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:50,160
Speaker 1: there are so many people that get that have bought

1707
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:53,040
Speaker 1: access to get close to him at his clubs in particular,

1708
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:57,639
Speaker 1: that you can't rule out that possibility. I just don't

1709
01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:01,040
Speaker 1: think it's a full organized barras for what it's worth

1710
01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:05,000
Speaker 1: all right. So with that, I think I'm gonna wrap

1711
01:33:05,080 --> 01:33:08,840
Speaker 1: up this this episode. Hope you enjoy the enjoyed the week.

1712
01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:11,640
Speaker 1: If you haven't caught up on previous episodes, please do

1713
01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:14,080
Speaker 1: because I know we've had some issues with the automatic

1714
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:19,720
Speaker 1: updating among those that subscribe to the podcast on Apple obviously,

1715
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:22,200
Speaker 1: even if you subscribe on Apple, come over to the

1716
01:33:22,240 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 1: YouTube channel like and subscribe there. The check podcast has

1717
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:28,080
Speaker 1: a YouTube channel. You can check us out on Spotify

1718
01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:31,880
Speaker 1: or wherever else serves up podcasts. So with that, I'll

1719
01:33:31,920 --> 01:33:34,760
Speaker 1: see you next week until we upload again