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Speaker 1: Hmm, yeah, we is that it started? Have we have?

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Speaker 1: We have we opened the podcast yet? I mean yeah,

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Speaker 1: I if you did it, we're here. Robert Evans Champion

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Speaker 1: podcast opener, winner of the Nobel Prize for starting his

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Speaker 1: own podcast with a tonal grunting. Um. This is a

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Speaker 1: podcast about bad people, the worst in all of history.

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Speaker 1: And today we have a real, real doozy of a

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Speaker 1: son of a bitch to talk about. Uh, and to

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Speaker 1: talk about this this just exquisite asshole? Is Courtney Cozack. Courtney,

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Speaker 1: you are one of the hosts of Private Parts Unknown. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and you have a an essay collection coming out soon?

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? Uh? Well, I'm hoping to sell it.

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Speaker 1: It's been written, so that is the first step. Totally. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's about Hawking T shirts and the Girl's Gone Wild tour.

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Speaker 1: So spirit sounds that sounds like a life experience. Yeah, boy,

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Speaker 1: oh boy. I'm just gonna guess a lot of Keystone

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Speaker 1: Light involved in that tour. Good guess, I too, went

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Speaker 1: to college in the early coordinate. How do you feel

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Speaker 1: about obstetricians? Uh? Pretty good, pretty good, pretty good. Helpful people.

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Speaker 1: It can be helpful, people can't be can be helpful. People.

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Speaker 1: Keyword on this podcast, keyword? Uh yeah, how do you

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Speaker 1: feel about like like vaginas? It just as a just

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Speaker 1: as like a like a like in terms of the

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Speaker 1: way they're they're structured. I did previously tell Court that

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Speaker 1: I picked her for this episode specifically. I'm honored already.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, just wait, yeah, how do you feel about

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Speaker 1: vaginas like structurally, structurally? I don't have a problem with vaginas.

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Speaker 1: I feel like society maybe does, but society has some

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Speaker 1: issues with them. I think they're there, they seem they

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Speaker 1: seem fine. Um, but what if I were to tell

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Speaker 1: you the decades ago, some random dude with a medical

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Speaker 1: degree decided he'd figured out a better way to design vaginas,

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Speaker 1: And then what if I were to tell you that

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Speaker 1: he decided to test his theories by surgically altering the

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Speaker 1: vaginas of thousands of women without asking for their consent. No, No,

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Speaker 1: that's a bad one. Yeah, that is the story we're

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Speaker 1: going to tell today. It is the tale of Dr

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Speaker 1: James Burt, who sucked, and unless he's died by the

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Speaker 1: time this episode runs, still sucks. I think he's alive

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Speaker 1: in Florida is still which makes sense as to where

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Speaker 1: this guy would be. Um, he's really he hits the

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Speaker 1: he hits the defecta of of shitty American places because

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Speaker 1: he was he he did all of his crimes in

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Speaker 1: Ohio and then he fled to Florida when he got caught.

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Speaker 1: So it's a real perfect story. Oh my god, is

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Speaker 1: he still down in Florida redesigning vaginas? He is? No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: he is not allowed to do anything vaguely medical ever again.

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Speaker 1: Um but he Yeah, I mean that's broadly positive. He

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Speaker 1: didn't get the punishment that I think would have been fair. Um,

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Speaker 1: but he's he's, he's maybe still alive. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: hard to tell. He's he's kept a low profile since

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Speaker 1: getting caught. Um, well, getting caught is the wrong word,

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Speaker 1: because he wrote a book about what he was doing

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Speaker 1: and had no shame in it. And it's it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a tale, it's a tale. Are you ready to

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Speaker 1: hear the story of James doctor sorry, James Burton respectful? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: m D you know? Okay? So James Cared Burt Jr.

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Speaker 1: Was born on August twenty nine, nineteen twenty one, in Dayton, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: which is already one strike against him right. You know

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Speaker 1: he's coming coming out the bat committing a crime. Um,

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Speaker 1: the crime of being from Ohio. Uh now I I

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Speaker 1: yeah anyway. Um. James was one of two children born

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Speaker 1: to Benjamin and Stella. His dad worked in a manufacturing

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Speaker 1: company as a superintendent and his mom was a homemaker.

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Speaker 1: We have vanishingly little detail in his childhood, but we

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Speaker 1: can make some assumptions based on when and where he

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Speaker 1: grew up. He was likely raised in an environment of casual,

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Speaker 1: pervasive misogyny and male supremacy. Sex probably was not discussed

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Speaker 1: openly by his parents or in school. The first sex

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Speaker 1: ed in a major American city was implemented in Chicago

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Speaker 1: in nineteen thirteen, about eight years before James was born,

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Speaker 1: and program was so controversial that it was shuttered almost

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Speaker 1: immediately as a result of outcry from the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: They launched a massive protest campaign forced the Chicago Superintendent

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Speaker 1: of Schools, el A Young, to resign. Um. I was

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Speaker 1: gonna say, Midwest, I was like, that seems like a

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Speaker 1: very not happening. I mean it's simultaneously like yeah, it

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Speaker 1: makes sense that it would get shut down, but also

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Speaker 1: like good on you, Chica. They tried right, like they

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Speaker 1: tried before La or anywhere. You know, they gave it

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Speaker 1: a shot. Um didn't work, but you gotta give them.

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Speaker 1: You gotta give l a Young points for trying, at

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Speaker 1: least not the Catholic Church. Don't give the Catholic Church

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Speaker 1: points for a lot. I know we both thought of

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Speaker 1: things to say, but sometimes it's best not to make

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Speaker 1: those Catholic Church jokes throwing their dick around everywhere. That

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Speaker 1: did get them in a lot of trouble eventually, um,

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Speaker 1: but not enough. At the same time. Um, what we're

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Speaker 1: saying is sand O'Connor was right. So yeah, the federal

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Speaker 1: government would not take any kind of stance on the

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Speaker 1: matter of like whether or not sex said was a

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Speaker 1: good idea until nineteen eighteen. And what forced their hand

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Speaker 1: was the sheer devastating frequency of std S among American

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Speaker 1: soldiers during World War One. Like the government was like,

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Speaker 1: we don't we don't want any part in this, and

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Speaker 1: then our military readiness was compromised by fucking um had

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Speaker 1: to be dealt with just like, oh my god, we're

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Speaker 1: losing a lot of men from venereal disease. Dudes are Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they are leaping off of battleships and into the ocean

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Speaker 1: to quiet the crabs. We should probably say something, um.

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Speaker 1: The Chamberlain con Act was America's first federal law regarding

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Speaker 1: sex education, and it was passed to provide funding to

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Speaker 1: teach soldiers about syphilis and gonorrhea. This had the positive

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Speaker 1: impact of spurring large numbers of Americans to view sex

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Speaker 1: as a public health issue, which is broadly speaking, an

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Speaker 1: improvement from where things were. It also inspired school districts

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Speaker 1: around the nation to copy the military and hosting sex

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Speaker 1: ed programs in secondary schools. And this was a thoroughly

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Speaker 1: mixed bag, um, because they weren't teaching how to have

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Speaker 1: healthy sex. They weren't teaching about how sex can function

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Speaker 1: in a relationship. They weren't like it was just purely

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Speaker 1: trying to scare kids about v D, you know, Like

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Speaker 1: that was the whole all of sex. That was just

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Speaker 1: trying to frighten children about the fact that their their

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Speaker 1: genitals were going to rot off if they had sex.

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Speaker 1: Was everyone still on the abstinence only Like was that

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Speaker 1: happening in this era? I think that attitude was so

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Speaker 1: pervasive that they didn't have an abstinence only movement. It

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Speaker 1: was just assumed that, like, yeah, it's bad to funk

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Speaker 1: before marriage, and obviously all of the men are. But like,

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Speaker 1: I don't even think there was a movement because it

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Speaker 1: was so such a pervasive, like accepted thing. Yeah, Throughout

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, when James Burt was a little kid,

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Speaker 1: sex ed grew increasingly common. When he was in school,

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Speaker 1: he probably watched a film called The Gift of Life

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Speaker 1: from the terrifyingly named American Social Hygiene Association, which is

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Speaker 1: that's a nightmare organization name right there. Uh. The movie

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Speaker 1: warned children about the quote solitary vice, which was masturbation,

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Speaker 1: and cautioned, masturbation may seriously hinder a boy's progress towards

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Speaker 1: vigorous manhood. It is a selfish, childish, stupid habit. Interesting

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Speaker 1: word choice with the vigorous love that vigorous. Also, don't

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Speaker 1: you think masturbation that would help prevent d D? I

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Speaker 1: don't you know? We talk about this and the Kellogg

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Speaker 1: episodes which you're airing the week we record this, But like,

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Speaker 1: there was a widespread belief that it would kill you,

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Speaker 1: that like, it would drive you insane and you would die.

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Speaker 1: Not totally wrong, but I mean it depends on how

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Speaker 1: you do it, I guess. But yeah, you'll also noticed

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Speaker 1: that they specifically say, like masturbation is the thing that

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Speaker 1: that boys do that is bad for them. This is

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Speaker 1: because even discussing even even to like even discussing female

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Speaker 1: sexuality in order to like discourage masturbation was kind of

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Speaker 1: too risque, you know, like acknowledging that it happened would

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Speaker 1: be a bridge too far for these people. Now, thanks

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Speaker 1: to an English teacher named Lucy Curtis, a number of

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Speaker 1: secondary school teachers in the twenties and thirties also attempted

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Speaker 1: to teach sex and through English literature, which allowed them

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Speaker 1: to avoid talking directly about biology. Instead, they would draw

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Speaker 1: comparisons to health lessons sex health lessons from passages and

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Speaker 1: classical works. Miss Curtis advised teachers quote, read to them

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Speaker 1: Lancelot's wild passionate quest for the Holy Grail, and they

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Speaker 1: will enter into the bitter experience of a soul which

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Speaker 1: has rendered itself incapable of receiving the full spiritual blessing

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Speaker 1: through the sea sin of yielding to impair desire. So,

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Speaker 1: like you've got a teacher about fucking have them read

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Speaker 1: King Arthur's tales. They'll understand that the Holy Grail is sex. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that'll work. That's why the Crucible stopped generation from fucking

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Speaker 1: um um so. In the nineteen thirties, when James Burt

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Speaker 1: was a teenager and had his adolescence, sex ed grew

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Speaker 1: increasingly formal. The U s Department of Education started publishing

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Speaker 1: materials to train teachers during this period. Most of these

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Speaker 1: early classes focused entirely on warning children against masturbation and

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Speaker 1: scaring them with exaggerated stories of the dangers of STDs.

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Speaker 1: Female masturbation was seldom discussed. Even teaching about the negatives

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Speaker 1: of sex could be dangerous. In nineteen thirty three, when

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Speaker 1: Mexico's socialist government proposed compulsory sex ed for public schools,

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Speaker 1: Mexico City erupted into riots. Um So, there were riots

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Speaker 1: in a few countries about the concept of teaching sex said.

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Speaker 1: That wasn't just don't yeah people, people murdered each other

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Speaker 1: over this stuff. Good ship and of course Mexico City,

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church was behind that one too. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: the most influential progressive voice on sex said during James's

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Speaker 1: teen years would have been Margaret Sanger, who is a

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Speaker 1: very problematic figure on her own. Um was a big eugenicist,

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Speaker 1: but Sanger also made huge waves for arguing that sex

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Speaker 1: for the sake of pleasure was acceptable, and she did

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Speaker 1: this by urging people to use birth control. Right. She

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Speaker 1: had other motives for it, but the mere fact that

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Speaker 1: you're saying birth control is the option and not abstinence

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Speaker 1: means that you're acknowledging people can have sex and it's

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Speaker 1: it's okay, you know. Um. So, that was a big

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Speaker 1: deal for a lot of folks. It was the sign

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Speaker 1: of kind of a shifting in the winds um. Now, again,

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Speaker 1: there were major eugenicist implications for a lot of her beliefs,

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Speaker 1: but the positive angle of it is that she was

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Speaker 1: increasingly pushing forward a conversation that said it's okay if

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Speaker 1: married wo men and women have sex for fun, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, which is something. In nineteen thirty six, Sanger

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Speaker 1: helped push forward a Supreme Court case that overturned the

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Speaker 1: Comstock Law, which had ruled both birth control devices and

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Speaker 1: information about birth control obscene and thus illegal. Um So,

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Speaker 1: like talking about birth control was illegal because it was

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Speaker 1: it was pornography. Basically, Oh my god, that's so fucked up.

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Speaker 1: That's like the Instagram advertising policy of President present day. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Comstock law was that for everything, and Sanger helps

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Speaker 1: overturn at the Supreme Court is like, oh, you know.

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Speaker 1: It turns out the First Amendment means you can talk

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Speaker 1: about condoms, which is fun um. I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: good law to overturn because it sucked. By the time

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Speaker 1: James Burt was seventeen or eighteen, he would have been

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Speaker 1: able to finally receive sex set information that wasn't entirely

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Speaker 1: focused around syphilis or the evils of whacking it. James

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Speaker 1: graduated in nineteen thirty nine and went to Auburn University,

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Speaker 1: where he met his future wife, Lucretia Perry. He received

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Speaker 1: his undergraduate degree after a transfer from Alabama Polytechnic Institute

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty two. He next attended medical school, and

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Speaker 1: he married Lucretia in the early nineteen forties before graduating

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Speaker 1: with his medical degree in nineteen forty five. I haven't

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Speaker 1: found good information on what precisely inspired James to get

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Speaker 1: into medicine, but based on his later actions, we can

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Speaker 1: safely assume that he found himself gravitating most to the

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Speaker 1: subject of rep deductive and sexual health. We know he

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Speaker 1: paid close attention to developing sex research of the day.

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Speaker 1: He would have followed the developing work of a sex

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Speaker 1: science pioneer named Alfred Kinsey. Kinsey was a former biologist

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Speaker 1: who had gone from studying wasps to studying human sex

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Speaker 1: after he started teaching a course on marriage for Indiana

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Speaker 1: University and realized that there was basically zero good research

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Speaker 1: documenting the sex lives of normal humans. And Kinsey is

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Speaker 1: a controversial figure. Two. There's some good criticisms of the guy. Um,

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Speaker 1: but his research is like I love that. That gets

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Speaker 1: you a little bit hard, Robert, You're like, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: some there's some stuff about that guy too. There's there

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Speaker 1: we might talk about. There's some like weird weird ship

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Speaker 1: with Kinsey. Um, like genital torture stuff that. Why, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's some weird ship with Kinsey. I'm not gonna I'm

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Speaker 1: not competent at the moment to talk about it. Um.

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Speaker 1: But like Kinsey, there's there's some very there's some very

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Speaker 1: founded critiques of him. You also, if you're studying like

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Speaker 1: sex health, you have to talk about Kinsey because he

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Speaker 1: was the first person pushing this research and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: quote from an honors thesis by Lauren Lavin for the

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Speaker 1: University of South Dakota here in Night. Soon after beginning

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Speaker 1: the Institute for Sex Research, Kinsey published one of the

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Speaker 1: most influential pieces of literature in American sex history, Sexual

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Speaker 1: Behavior of the Human Male. Five years later, in nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty three, he published Sexual Behavior of the Human Female.

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Speaker 1: The books contained controversial information for the time, as they

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Speaker 1: detailed topics such as homosexuality, premarital sex, and even beast reality.

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Speaker 1: Yet this illicit information intrigued the public, and the books

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Speaker 1: quickly rose to the top of the New York Times

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Speaker 1: bestseller list. The most notably controversial information presented was the

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Speaker 1: occurrence of homosexuality in America. At this point, homosexual acts

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Speaker 1: were legal, yet Kinsey's reports detailed many people having homosexual encounters.

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Speaker 1: He estimated that ten percent of the population was homosexual.

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Speaker 1: This statistic, now known to be higher than the actual

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Speaker 1: presentage of four point five percent, was shocking to American citizens.

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Speaker 1: The books also contained innovative new measures for sex research.

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Speaker 1: The Kinsey scale scale, still used in sex research today,

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Speaker 1: is a graduated scale from zero to six that measures

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Speaker 1: the level of homosexual orientation in an individual, with zero

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Speaker 1: being entirely heterosexual and six being entirely homosexual. The scale

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Speaker 1: was an important finding in research as it provided the

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Speaker 1: basis for homosexual research in a reliable way to measure

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Speaker 1: homosexuality going forward. Um, and yeah, it's one of those things. Also,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say that like four point five

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Speaker 1: percent is the definite percentage of homosexuality, Like, I don't

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Speaker 1: think we had a per perfect data on that now,

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Speaker 1: and Kinsey's data wasn't perfect, but he was the first

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Speaker 1: person who was studying this and not condemning it. Was

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Speaker 1: just like, this is the thing that people do. Let's

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Speaker 1: try to understand it, you know, which is you get

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Speaker 1: a lot of credit for that in my book. And

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Speaker 1: again like nineteen fifty two or forty eight, nineteen forty eight, sorry,

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Speaker 1: like that's that's he's very ahead of his time. Yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: And he he also like started carrying out it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just like the thing that kind of first brought in

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Speaker 1: prominence was his these kind of frank discussions of homosexuality,

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Speaker 1: but he started also discussing just like heterosexual sex life

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Speaker 1: in a way that hadn't been before, where it was

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Speaker 1: just kind of trying to understand what people do and

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Speaker 1: not judging it, and not not approaching it from any

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Speaker 1: kind of moral or religious territory. Just just this is

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Speaker 1: the thing people do. Let's try to understand how common

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Speaker 1: different things are. When Kinsey's study went viral, James Burt

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Speaker 1: was working for the US Air Force Medical Corps, which

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Speaker 1: he joined to avoid getting drafted. He did a residency

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Speaker 1: next at a hospital in Chicago, and eventually wound up

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Speaker 1: performing his residency at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center in New

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Speaker 1: York City. He finally received his medical license in June

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Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty one from the state of Ohio and

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Speaker 1: moved back home to Dayton in the first of all

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Speaker 1: would become a major series of poor decisions. This is

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Speaker 1: a very anti Ohio podcast. I think we're open about that.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever been to Ohio Courtney first mistake? Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the one who Yeah, what a great response. I know

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Speaker 1: some lovely people from Ohio, people from everywhere. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: should have been a lake is all I'll say. Um,

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Speaker 1: we got we don't have enough lakes and we have

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Speaker 1: too much Ohio. That's That's all I'll say. On the

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Speaker 1: James Burt started his own practice, which was focused on

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Speaker 1: gynecology and obstetrics, and he started his practice the year

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Speaker 1: before Kinsey wrote his book on female sexuality. Um Bert

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Speaker 1: was not board certified and gynecology or or in obstetrics,

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Speaker 1: but that was not a barrier to practicing in those

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Speaker 1: at the time. I don't know if it is today,

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Speaker 1: but at the time you could do. As long as

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Speaker 1: you were a doctor, you could. You could. You could

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Speaker 1: practice gynecology and obstetrics without being board certified in them. Um.

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Speaker 1: So he starts his practice and less than a year

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Speaker 1: later he and his wife separate. Uh and he files

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Speaker 1: for divorce. This was a fairly rare thing at the time,

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Speaker 1: although not as where she'd think. The divorce rate UM

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties was about two point three people

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Speaker 1: for every thousand Americans compared to about three point nine

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Speaker 1: for every thousand Americans today. UM we're actually we've actually

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Speaker 1: been seeing divorce rates decline over the last decade or so.

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Speaker 1: We're at like the same level we were in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty eight. I think the reason for the divorce was

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Speaker 1: he just like I saw a lot of pussies this year.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about that. Yeah. The James Bert's story

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Speaker 1: involves a lot of divorce. So the couple had two

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Speaker 1: sons and a daughter who seemed to have gone with

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Speaker 1: their mother. I don't think he kept the kids. I

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Speaker 1: haven't heard any sort of evidence that makes me believe

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Speaker 1: the kids stayed with him. We know very little about

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Speaker 1: their situation because again, he's divorcing her. In the early fifties,

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Speaker 1: women don't have a lot of illegal You can't have

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Speaker 1: a bank account as a woman. Um. So, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: know that Bert was the one who filed for divorce.

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Speaker 1: He claimed his wife was unhappy with his financial situation.

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Speaker 1: But this could very well be a lie because he

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Speaker 1: was making a lot of money at this point. He's

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Speaker 1: a doctor, you know, and he's throughout his career a

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Speaker 1: very successful one. Um. This could also be a lie

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Speaker 1: because in nineteen fifty three, a few months after he

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Speaker 1: filed for divorce, when the divorce was still pending, James

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Speaker 1: Burt traveled to Mexico, got a divorce in Mexico without

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Speaker 1: his wife's involvement, and immediately worried married his second wife, Jerry,

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Speaker 1: in Indiana. Oh shit, the first bitch just got a

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Speaker 1: letter in the mail, Like, Okay, we're done Mexican divorce.

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Speaker 1: It's taken too long in America. We're Mexico divorced and

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Speaker 1: just will come up later. But you can't do that.

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Speaker 1: If you're married in the United States and you file

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Speaker 1: for divorce and then just decided to go to Mexico

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Speaker 1: to get it doesn't count. Like, that's not the way

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Speaker 1: the law works, you know, Like, so he's this is

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Speaker 1: technically bigamy. He's still married to his first wife when

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Speaker 1: he marries his second wife. Uh. Sorry, that is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Can you not, like if I get is that still

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Speaker 1: true today? If I get married in the United States,

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Speaker 1: can I only get divorced in the United States? I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you can only get divorced. But if

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Speaker 1: you start divorce proceedings here and then move to another

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Speaker 1: country without the consent of your spouse to get a divorce,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't count, right, Yeah, it seems like you would

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Speaker 1: definitely need consent. Yeah, I'm sure you could, Like if

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Speaker 1: you were like, oh, well, I've moved, I've since moved

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Speaker 1: to this other country, I'm going to initiate divorce proceedings

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Speaker 1: here instead of initiing them. I'm sure that would work,

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Speaker 1: but it does not work the way he did it,

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Speaker 1: because he was clearly just fleeing New Mexico to get

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Speaker 1: a piece of paper that said that he could get

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Speaker 1: another Like what he was doing was very deliberately shady,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um. So, Gary and James moved into a modern,

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Speaker 1: one story house with a swimming pool in a wealthy

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Speaker 1: suburban neighborhood of Dayton, which further under cuts his claim

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Speaker 1: that his wife was unhappy with their finances, because again,

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Speaker 1: he was making a lot of money. I think he

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Speaker 1: was just trying to say, like, she's a gold digger.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're splitting up, you know. And for things

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Speaker 1: that come later, I'm certain he's lying about this first divorce. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the couple had one child, and for a few

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Speaker 1: years seems things seemed to be relatively normal for the

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Speaker 1: young doctor in his growing family, But appearances were in

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Speaker 1: this case deceiving. A major part of James's job as

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Speaker 1: an obstetrician involved repairing apsotomy's. At the time, the vast

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Speaker 1: majority of women who birth children went through it. A

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Speaker 1: psotomy which is a surgical cut made at the opening

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Speaker 1: of the vagina to ease childbirth. This is not as

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Speaker 1: common today, but back in those days, doctors believed it

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Speaker 1: made the birth safer, it was easier on the child's

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Speaker 1: head um, and so it was the norm in some

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Speaker 1: hospitals of births included an a psotomy. Now things are different,

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Speaker 1: it's not it's still done sometimes, but it was just

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Speaker 1: like almost every doctor which just do it basically every time.

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Speaker 1: It was just kind of the standard thing is this

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Speaker 1: makes it safer for the baby, so we're just gonna

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Speaker 1: We're just gonna cut her open um. Now, it was

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Speaker 1: not strictly necessary and most births, and again there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who will say like this was an ningia,

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Speaker 1: and it was, you know, it was. It was like

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Speaker 1: unnecessary surgery for a lot of people who received it. Um.

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Speaker 1: At the time. The reason this, doctors would just do

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Speaker 1: this because doctors would not ask the mother before doing

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Speaker 1: this um and this was not just an apsiotomy thing.

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Speaker 1: At the time, consent was not a priority in medicine

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Speaker 1: for anyone, men or women. Your doctor told you what

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Speaker 1: you were going to get, and you would do it. Um.

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Speaker 1: Doctors were probably the most trusted people in the country

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Speaker 1: at this point. It was a different era and it

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Speaker 1: was just sort of the norm for a doctor to say,

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Speaker 1: this is what needs to happen, and for the patient

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Speaker 1: to just kind of let it happen. Um, And they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't tell you a lot of the time they were

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Speaker 1: like with an epsiotomy, they probably wouldn't say, here's what

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Speaker 1: will happen unless you specifically ask, Like it's just well,

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Speaker 1: you're going to get having a child, I'm gonna knock

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Speaker 1: you out with drugs and do what's necessary to get

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Speaker 1: the kid out, you know. But that's how it worked

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Speaker 1: at the time. We're gonna talk a lot about the

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Speaker 1: history of medical consent in this episode, Um, but it

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Speaker 1: was not a thing in the fifties, right, Like just

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Speaker 1: not a standard thing. A Psiotomies were so normal that

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Speaker 1: physicians often did not discuss it at all prior to

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Speaker 1: the birth. Um. This was despite the fact that many

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Speaker 1: women hated the operation, which was extremely painful and permanently

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Speaker 1: altered many people's ability to enjoy enjoy vaginal sex after childbirth.

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Speaker 1: Like most obstetricians, Dr Bert performed a lot of episiotomies

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Speaker 1: and then as a matter of course, he would carry

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Speaker 1: out a repair of the epsiotomy. Afterwards. You would try

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Speaker 1: to fix it, and there was like a saying that,

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Speaker 1: like you would give him an extra stitch, you know,

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Speaker 1: to tighten things up a bit more pleasurable. Um. And

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Speaker 1: the more he did, this patriarchy just inserting themselves at

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Speaker 1: every stage. Yeah yeah, let me yeah. And I'm bringing

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Speaker 1: all this up because James Burt is uniquely shitty among

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Speaker 1: obstetricians in this period. But like they're all doing some

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Speaker 1: shady stuff, like some stuff that we it wasn't shady

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Speaker 1: by the standards of the day, but now now you

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Speaker 1: you look at medical science in that period, you're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: if that's a little messed up. Um. Yeah. So the

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Speaker 1: more he repaired to psotomys, the more he started to

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Speaker 1: have ideas. And I'm gonnaquote from a write up on

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Speaker 1: the website medical Bag to explain how what he's started

426
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: with what happens when men have ideas do not recommend quote.

427
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: The doctor believed that women lost all are part of

428
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: their ability to have an orgasm following childbirth as a

429
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: result of their vagina becoming too loose post delivery, claiming

430
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: that women's vaginas were quote large enough to drive a

431
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: truck through sideways after childbirth. That's doctor Bird's writing on

432
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: the map, it's gonna get worse. It's gonna get worse

433
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: as it normally does, as it as it does ac

434
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 1: of the time on this show. Drive a truck through

435
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: d truck through sideways that study. No, no, but you

436
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: know what a lot of trucks because global capitalism is

437
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: heavily reliant upon semis in order to transport goods and

438
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: services across great distances. I mean, you really called that

439
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: ship together. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,

440
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: thank you. Would that be the products and services that

441
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: support this podcast? Absolutely is the products and services that

442
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: support this podcast. All Right, we're back, We're back, and

443
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: we're just not going to think too much about that

444
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: add transition. So yeah, Dr Burke decided to fix all that.

445
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: Between nineteen fifty four and nineteen sixty six, Bert began

446
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: experimenting on unknowing unconscious patients with his own variations of

447
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: the standard apsiotomy repair after childbirth. Known for his heavy

448
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: hand with anesthesia, Bert had human campuses on which to

449
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: experiment after delivery. He's a knock them out doctor, and

450
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: he just starts fiddling around in there, you know, just

451
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 1: kind of experimenting. Were these the days of operating theaters

452
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: or was that over? Was he like, come on in, boys,

453
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: she's totally knocked out, and I'm gonna try a few things.

454
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: He's on his own, I think. I think sometimes he

455
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: has nurses, but he's on his own. Um. Now. The

456
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: exact nature of the surgeries he carried out varied over time.

457
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: At first, he mostly focused on making the vaginal opening

458
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: tighter to try and make vaginas smaller and tighter and

459
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: improve the sexual experience of the husbands of his patients mainly.

460
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: But in the late nineteen fifties, Dr Burt started reading

461
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: the then newly published work of William Masters in Virginia Johnson.

462
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: Their work was groundbreaking for many reasons, but among them

463
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: was the scientific data it provided on the fact that

464
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: the clitter has played a key role in causing orgasms.

465
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: Dr Burt synthesized this finding with his own findings over

466
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: years of experimental epsiotomy repairs. The women he'd given his

467
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: modified surgery to, he claimed, told him their sexual experience

468
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: had improved after childbirth. James Burt began to develop his

469
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: own theories about human vaginas and sexual responsiveness. From a

470
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: book titled The Love surgeon by Sarah Rodriguez quote. Central

471
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: of Birt's ideas about female sexuality and the surgery he

472
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: was developing were his ideas about the role of the

473
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: clitteress in female orgasm. Prior to very recently, Bert wrote,

474
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,959
Speaker 1: the medical consensus had been that that a vaginal orgasm

475
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: was mature, and orgasm from manipulation of the clitterest was immature,

476
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: and thus the ultimate return of the vagina to normal

477
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: by repair after childbirthing was completed seemed adequate. But this,

478
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: he noted, did not consider the role of the clitteress.

479
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: So in nineteen sixty three, nearly a decade into his

480
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: casual experimenting with vaginas, James Burt's second wife filed for divorce.

481
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: Since she is the one who filed, we're able to

482
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 1: look at this divorce through the lens of someone besides

483
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: Dr Burt. Gary reported that her husband had quote struck

484
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: and physically abused her from time to time. She yeah.

485
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: She asked that her husband be kept away from her

486
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: and that their mutually held assets be protected from him.

487
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: This was not an amicable divorce. James fought back, claiming

488
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: that he ought not have to pay his wife alimony because,

489
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: and this is just an incredible line of argument, he

490
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: divorced from his first wife still had not been legally

491
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: completed in the United States, and thus his marriage to

492
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: Gary had never been technically legal. So that's his his

493
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: defense to paying alimonious. Well, I got married to her illegally.

494
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: I was breaking we got married, so why would I

495
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: pay alimony? He's like, however, the paperwork lines up to

496
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: best serve me. Do we know if he did any

497
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: fucked up stuff to her vagina? We do not. She

498
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: had kids with him, so probably, But but I I

499
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: don't know. I I have not run into confirmation that also,

500
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: maybe not, because it is it is kind of uncommon

501
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: at least now. I assume it was then too for

502
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: doctors to you know, deliver their own children, right, Like

503
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: that's considered like maybe not the best idea. Um, so

504
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: maybe it was someone else who did it and he

505
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: didn't have a chance to get in there. Um. I

506
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: don't know. I haven't seen any sort of confirmation or

507
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: denial of that. But it was definitely not not a

508
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: friendly divorce. Uh. The judge was not convinced by this

509
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: line of argument, which is honestly kind of surprising for

510
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: the time UM, but he awarded Gary Alimonian child support

511
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: and their divorce was finalized in nineteen sixty six. That

512
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: same year, Masters and Johnson published a book Human Sexual Response,

513
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: which dedicated an entire chapter to the Clitterests, which they

514
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: labeled quote a unique organ in the total of human

515
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: anatomy because it's only purpose was sexual. They described it

516
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: as an organ system which is totally limited in physiologic

517
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: function to initiating or elevating levels of sexual tension um.

518
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: Which was a big finding at the time, and it

519
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: kind of like it went against a lot of the

520
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: existing ideas about female sexuality, which and often just sort

521
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: of seen that that it was like it was a

522
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: variant of male sexuality, right, Like female sexuality is just

523
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: kind of like a lesser version of male sexuality. Women

524
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 1: don't enjoy sex as much, like it's not as big

525
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: a deal for them. They're not sexual beings in the

526
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: way that men are. And the Masters and Johnson's research

527
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: kind of blows that out of the water because like

528
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: women are the only like, how have an entire organ

529
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: that's just dedicated to sexual responsiveness. UM. Yet it's pretty

530
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: it's it's great so this is like an important sort

531
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: of in the in the history of like understanding human sexuality.

532
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: This idea that like, no, no human beings are are

533
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: all sexual beings as opposed to like it's just just

534
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: people with you know, penises. Yeah, so outside of that, um,

535
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: yeah it. This was like a bombshell in medical science

536
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: at the time, and Dr Bert was as influenced by

537
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: this finding as everyone else. Unfortunately, he also fell into

538
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: a failure of deduction that similarly plagued Dr William Masters.

539
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: Both men were physicians, and as a result, they both

540
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: saw sex and issues with sex and strictly physical and

541
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: conventionally medical terms. The social aspects of sexual dysfunction, like

542
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 1: an equal power dynamics were abused within a relationship were

543
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: boiled out. It was just purely a matter of like, oh,

544
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: these are how the mechanics of sex working, Like, well,

545
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not just a matter of hydraulics, you know,

546
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot that goes on and insects um. Female

547
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: sexual problems then were blamed on purely physical matters. And

548
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote again from the Love Surgeon here. According

549
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: to Bert, he had not informed any of these women.

550
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: The women he had done surgery on that he had

551
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: done anything other than a standard of pasiotomy repair. The

552
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: combination of realizing the importance of the clitterest and sex

553
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: for women, and that the modification he had made to

554
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: a psiotomy repair was improving the sex lives of his

555
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: patients led Bert to conclude that women's bodies were not

556
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: anatomically ideal for heterosexual sex, for female bodies were pathological

557
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: when it came to heterosexual intercourse. Based on the research

558
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: of Masters and Johnson and the information about the improved

559
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: sex lives he stated he heard from his patients, Bert

560
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: decided the clitterest was too far from the opening of

561
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: the vagina for women to receive adequate stipulation from the

562
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: penis during heterosexual missionary position sex. So he's got notes

563
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: going a little bit of feedback for God or nature.

564
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: Who you didn't made this, don't worry, I got it

565
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: figured out. Yeah, that's amazing, Hubrist, Like that's a whole,

566
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: a whole another level, like it's it's it's something else. Um.

567
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, he started to modify the again significant surgical

568
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: procedure he'd already been performing on his patients without consent

569
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: for more than a decade. Up to that point, he'd

570
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: mostly focused on making the vagina tighter. Now he started

571
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: building up skin tissue in order to move the vaginal

572
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: opening closer to the clitteress. This procedure also changed the

573
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: angle of the vaginal opening. Bert later bragged that under

574
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: what he started calling his love surgery, quote, yeah, just god,

575
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: the loot surgery, Like you just need to learn how

576
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: to eat a pussy and then this will all just go. No, No,

577
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: that's that is not at all acceptable to Dr James Burt.

578
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: It is it is. I mean it's a matter of

579
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: like there's a lot that we'll talk about this more.

580
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: There's a lot that's wrapped up in it. Part of

581
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: it is just this mix of men wanting to feel

582
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: like their sexual dynamos and also men not wanting to

583
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: do anything but missionary sex um. And so the whole,

584
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: the whole idea that Bird has is like, well, I'll

585
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: just make it easier for women to orgasm from from

586
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: purely missionary sex, and that will make men. That will

587
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: improve relationships because men will be sexual powerhouses. Then like that,

588
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: it's it's this idea of like, well, I shouldn't have

589
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: to learn to pleasure my partner. I'll alter her physiology.

590
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: Oh my god, just five surgeries later, it'll be perfect.

591
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: It was usually just one nine hour surgery. If that

592
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: makes it better. Um, so, yeah, he moved the vagina

593
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: towards the clitters. He also pulled a significant amount of

594
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: the labia minora into the vagina because he believes to

595
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: make it pretty. No, he thought it would cause greater

596
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 1: stimulation during vaginal sex. I say that he's doing all

597
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: these things, and he says he's getting feedback. He's not

598
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: telling these women what he's doing. So he's not being like,

599
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: so I did all this stuff to your bits, how

600
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: does it feel? He was just like, how sex after childbirth?

601
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: And they'd be all like, oh, it's a lot better

602
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: than it was, you know when I was pregnant. He'd

603
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: be like, oh, that means the surgery works. He's not

604
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: asking them how about this? How about He's not like

605
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: getting he's not even getting not that it would be

606
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: okay if he was, but he's not actually getting scientific

607
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 1: data on this. He's just being like, they say sex

608
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: is better, it must work. Like so he doesn't know.

609
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: He's saying that, I know my surgery is improving sex.

610
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 1: He doesn't know if it's number one. He doesn't actually

611
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: know that it's improving sex. They might just be like, yeah,

612
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: now that I don't have you know, I'm no longer pregnant,

613
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 1: I'm enjoying sex more, which which could make sense he's

614
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 1: he's not. He doesn't know if like, oh, is moving

615
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: the opening or moving the clitter iss or is moving

616
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: the laby manora, Like what is it that's improving things?

617
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: If any of it's having an m back because he's

618
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: not actually doing science. He's just kind of fussing around

619
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: down there. Did he get any complaints? We don't know yet.

620
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: He does this is the sixties and calling that love surgery,

621
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: but isn't telling any of his patients telling any of

622
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: his patients at this point. What he's doing his research

623
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: is hey, you were pregnant and now you're not sex. Yeah,

624
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: and it's self reported, so like if he did get

625
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: some complaints, he's probably not going to tell other people

626
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: about exactly. And also like no offense, but I'm not

627
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: out here like talking to my oh B being like

628
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: yeah sex great, well yeah, especially and and that's like

629
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,479
Speaker 1: not in the sixties. And if you I'm sure someone

630
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: because some women. These women do later go to other

631
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: doctors to be like, what has happened to me? And

632
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess that happened at this period. But a

633
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: lot of those doctors are like, well, it's just pregnancy,

634
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: you know, pregnancy changes stuff down there. Leave, like, get

635
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: out of my office, you know, like there's nothing I

636
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 1: can do for you. This is just what happens. Yeah,

637
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: it's horrible. It's gonna get worse. Um, of course. Yeah.

638
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty seven, James Burt finally succeeded in getting

639
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: a legal divorce from his first wife so he could

640
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: marry his third wife, Linda. By this point, he was

641
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: one of the most successful and thus wealthiest obstetricians in Ohio.

642
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: He and his new wife bought property in El Salvador

643
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: and the Dominican Republic. I'm sure nothing shady with either

644
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: of those transactions. They also bought a condo in Veil, Colorado,

645
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: so they wouldn't have to spend as much time in

646
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: the blighted hellscape that is Ohio with Dayton. Within Dayton,

647
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: the Bird's gained a reputation for being ostentatious and somewhat kinky.

648
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: Rich people. They held huge pool parties that were swim

649
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: suit optional. James Burt wore gold chains and long fur

650
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: coats in the winter. On at least one occasion, he

651
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: wore a pink Saparti Safari suit at one of the

652
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: parties he threw. Not that I found. He was not

653
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: particularly social with or popular among his fellow doctors. One

654
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: of his colleagues bluntly stated that James didn't enjoy golf

655
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: because he quote preferred indoor games. And you can translate

656
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: that however you want. Yeah, so he's like a kind

657
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: of probably kind of like a swinger dude in this period.

658
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: I'm guessing a lot of key parties at the Bird residence,

659
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 1: you know. In nineteen seventy three, james third marriage fell

660
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: apart when Linda left her husband for a ski instructor

661
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: she'd met in Veil. Yeah, cut maybe so not not really,

662
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: because it's unclear if she left him before or after

663
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: he started living with a twenty one year old I

664
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: have every little bit of hope. He was forty six

665
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: at the time. In short order, he duly married this

666
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: much younger woman whose name was Joan, and they stayed

667
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: together for a while. To his credit, he did wait

668
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: until after he and his third wife had a legal

669
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: divorce to get married to his fourth wife, Joan and

670
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 1: James bought a yacht on Lake Erie. She wore diamonds constantly.

671
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 1: The couple did not grow any more popular among James's colleagues.

672
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 1: Walter Reeling Jr. A Dayton physician who worked near Dr Birt,

673
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: later claimed that other doctors and their spouses avoided the

674
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: birds at social gatherings in the seventies. No one, he claims,

675
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: wanted to sit at a table with them. Sarah Rodriguez

676
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: writes quote Partly this was because of the manner in

677
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: which the birds behaved at such dinners. Both Walter Reeling

678
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: and his wife's Susie Reeling recollected how Joan Burt, decked

679
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: out in furst, would be physically all over her husband

680
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: during medical society dinners, talking a lot and bragging about

681
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: how many orgasms she enjoyed. James Burt apparently did not

682
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 1: seek out friendships with other physicians, and Walter Reeling could

683
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: not recall a physician who sought out Bert's friendship. So

684
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 1: a lot of p d A that everyone finds kind

685
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: of creepy, right, sex positive here, But if you're like

686
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: sitting at a dinner talking about how often you orgasm,

687
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: like a professional dinner with your colleagues. Kind of weird,

688
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: kind of weird, kind of weird. That not the time

689
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: for that kind of conversation. You know, um, there aren't.

690
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: He's an ol B. This is related to work. Yeah,

691
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: Like he's like Jordan Belfort and like the Wolf of

692
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: Wall Street, the wife with the diamonds on the yacht

693
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: Strong Jordan Belfort energy that literally like dog come on bro.

694
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: By the mid nineteen seventies, Dr Bert had added yet

695
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: another step to his love surgery. Some of his patients

696
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: had complained of pain during sex after his operation. Decided

697
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: the yeah, oh yeah. Now, obviously it couldn't be that

698
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 1: his operation was a bad idea. It had to be

699
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: that there was yet another problem with female anatomy that

700
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: needed to be corrected. He decided the most likely culprit

701
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: was the pubo coxy g S muscle, which is a

702
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: constrictor muscle at the rear wall of the vagina that

703
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 1: supports the uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes, bowl bladder, and vagina.

704
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: This is the organ that you control when you do

705
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: Keegel's right. That's that's the muscle that he decides as

706
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: the problem. It is extremely important. It provides control not

707
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: over just vaginal feeling, but urination and defication. It's a

708
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: very important muscle to to have James cut it because

709
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: he decided it was getting hit during penetrative intercourse and

710
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: causing pain which made it harder for his patients to orgasm. Again,

711
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: none of them told him to do this, nor was

712
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: he carrying out medical research to determine if the pubo

713
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: coxygenus muscle was in fact interfering with sexual pleasure. He

714
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: just sort of assumed it was the culprit and in

715
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: his words, decided to quote cut the damn muscle. Oh

716
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: my god, pretty bad, Like yeah, come really easy, but

717
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: cannot stop wetting myself everywhere. Yeah, which might have an

718
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: impact on I don't know a lot of things. Um,

719
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: it wasn't like he's not totally severing it, but he's

720
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: severing it enough that it it does cause problems within

721
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: continents and stuff for a lot of his patients. We'll

722
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: talk about that later. So later on, once knowledge of

723
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: his love surgery was public, many of his patients would

724
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: come forward with complaints that love surgery had made them incontinent.

725
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: We don't know what percentage of them suffered the way,

726
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: because in the mid seventies, he still was not telling

727
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 1: anyone what he was doing. This was now twenty years

728
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: into his experiments with love surgery. Yeah, so we we

729
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: don't know what percentage of his patients suffered in continence

730
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: as a result of the surgery because in the mid

731
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies he still wasn't telling anyone what he was doing.

732
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: And this is now twenty years into his experimenting with

733
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: love surgery. Bert of course, claims to have heard almost

734
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: universally positive reports from his patients about their post childbirth

735
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: sex lives. By nineteen seventy five, he claims to have

736
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 1: performed his love surgery on more than four thousand women.

737
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, that's some good ship. Um, it's not.

738
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: It's terrible. Uh, it's some bad ship. Yeah, that's a lot.

739
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people getting surgery. That my hometown.

740
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, that is a town worth of that's most

741
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 1: of Ohio, I have to assume. Um, but you know

742
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 1: it isn't most of Ohio. I don't even know where

743
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: go ahead. I mean, Ohio does advertise on our shop.

744
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, we could get an Ohio AD

745
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: and like, you could be factually wrong. And for the record,

746
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: if if there's an Ohio AD, don't listen to it,

747
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,919
Speaker 1: do not move to Ohio and or any circumstances. Yeah,

748
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: no idea, get the like Ohio. You know your audience.

749
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: This is a firmly anti Ohio pun. You're wasting your

750
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: money here Ohio. I mean, less money for Ohio is

751
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: a win for the whole world. But still, I just

752
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: don't want anyone to move there. Anyway, here's the man,

753
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: all right, we're back. So yeah, Dr James Bird is

754
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: a liar obviously, so we should take his claims that

755
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,479
Speaker 1: he performed to search around more than four thousand women

756
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: with a grain of salt, because there's not documentation of

757
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: this um. But he was one of the most, if

758
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: not the most popular obstetricians in Dayton in his day,

759
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: so he it's a lot. He experimented, probably in the

760
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: low probably at least a couple thousand. Four thousand's probably

761
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: an exaggeration. He's a narcissist, but two thousand's not out

762
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: of the not out of the possibility. You know, he's

763
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: been at it for a decade. Right, Yeah, he's he's

764
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 1: done this a lot. Um. And he was one of

765
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: the most successful obstetricians in the whole in the Midwest

766
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: at this point. And the average salary of a doctor

767
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: in this period is like sixty two thousand a year,

768
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: which is really good money. And you know, the nineteen

769
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: sixties seventies, he's making like four grand years. He's extremely successful. Um.

770
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: His office was on the top floor of a stylish

771
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: downtown building. He had eight exam rooms in a waiting

772
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: room which included a couch shaped like a woman's mouth.

773
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: A little bit creevy. Um. It must be said that

774
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: he was very popular with his patients. Dr Burt was charming, friendly,

775
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: and said to have exceptional bedside manner. He listened to

776
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: his patients in an era in which male doctors were

777
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: generally expected to ignore the complaints and fears of their

778
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 1: female patients. One nurse later recalled that he quote communicated

779
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: with women when a lot of doctors wouldn't. There were

780
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 1: a lot of physicians that were patting women on the

781
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: head and saying, now, sweetie, don't worry, I'll take care

782
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: of it. Um. And doctor Burt was not that kind.

783
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: He would he would explain to you what he was

784
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: He wouldn't tell you what he was actually doing, but

785
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: he would explain to you what he was claiming he

786
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: was going to do. He would make you feel good

787
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: about planning. Over all, the power he would make you

788
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: feel listened to before performing a surgery on you that

789
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: he did. You did not ask for um and did

790
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: not know was even a thing that could be done um.

791
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 1: Patients would often claim his office was a refuge. Doctor

792
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: Burt would listen to their fears about childbirth and sexual dysfunction,

793
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 1: which was not a subject most doctors would even broach.

794
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 1: Sarah Rodriguez writes, Bert seemed to sympathize with his patients.

795
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: Berts sympathetic ear perhaps appealed to many women as he

796
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 1: listened to their worries and fears about their upcoming labors

797
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: or hysterectomies, and he seems to have believed that he

798
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 1: was acting sympathetically toward them by performing love surge re

799
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: in addition to delivering their child or performing a hysterectomy.

800
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: In his view, but surgically altered their bodies to alleviate

801
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: their concerns and problems, all of which regardless of what

802
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: the women may have been telling or not telling him.

803
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 1: He felt, we're essentially about sex. Yeah, that's that's good stuff.

804
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: So Dr Bart of course performed his love surgery after

805
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: nearly every childbirth, even on women who never complained to

806
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: him about having sexual problems. He performed his love surgery

807
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: after vaginal hysterectomys too, and regularly when performing abdominal uterus suspension.

808
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: So he was just he he stopped just doing this

809
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: after a psiotomies, after you get a surgery, and you

810
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: get a surgery, and you get a surgery, and like

811
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: and like again, it's not an obie surgeon, right, Like

812
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: I feel like that needs to be stated over and

813
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: over again. That is not his Like he's not trained, Yeah,

814
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: I mean he's trained. He's not board certified, Like you

815
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: get training, I get like, he's he's not trained, Yeah,

816
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 1: he's This is not the thing he should be doing

817
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: at the time. It is not illegal for him to

818
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: be doing this, um, which is a fawt a flaw

819
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: and I think the medical system, what the hell. Yeah,

820
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,760
Speaker 1: as a general rule, if a patient with a vagina

821
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: was unconscious in front of him, he would he would

822
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: he would do his love surgery like that that was

823
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: kind of his like, definitely man. One thing that endeared

824
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: him to his patients were his promises, what he was.

825
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: He was extremely popular during this period, Sophie. All you

826
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: have to do is listen to women. But he's yeah,

827
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: like he's he's meeting the lowest bar, which is he's

828
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: not like patting them on the head and saying they're

829
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: they're girl. This is like, this is adult time. Like

830
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: that's what a lot of male doctors do, and he doesn't.

831
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: He sits there and he listens and he takes it

832
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,879
Speaker 1: seriously and then he does whatever it is he wants.

833
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 1: He's not he's a monster. I I hear you let me,

834
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: let me, let me cut you off? Like what the

835
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: yeah he's I mean yes, But like it is important

836
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: to the story that he's popular during this period. That's

837
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: part of why he gets so many women to experiment

838
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: on us. He's extremely successful. You can look up his face.

839
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 1: There's pictures of him. Um yeah, you know he's he's

840
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: like it's important that he was so endearing to his

841
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 1: patients because that's why they trusted him, and that's why

842
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: so few of them initially like recognized that something was

843
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: awry Um. He was very popular in part for his

844
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: promises of pain free childbirth, which he accomplished by giving

845
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,280
Speaker 1: expectant mothers huge doses of drugs that rendered them unconscious

846
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 1: throughout the whole process. This was not uncommon for the time,

847
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: and it gave birth the ability to more easily do

848
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: whatever he wanted with his patients, who were again canvasses

849
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 1: to him. By this point, he had come to believe

850
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: that all female bodies needed fixing because they were badly

851
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: designed for heterosexual missionary position sex, which he considered the

852
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: only normal sex act. He believed he was justified in

853
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: performing his surgery on every vagina he got his hands

854
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: on because he did not see his surgery as elective. Instead,

855
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: he was correcting a malformation. He thought of it in

856
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 1: the same way as like a doctor who corrects a

857
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: cleft palette. Right, that's what's going on in this guy's

858
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: head um. Sometimes he would even light to his patients

859
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: for a chance to get in there and root around.

860
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: From the New York Times quote, Miss Phillips was one

861
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: of the many women who went to Dr Burt for

862
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: a relatively minor physical problem. She was told she needed

863
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: a hysterect to me because her Phillipian tubes were rotting.

864
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: Now she suffers chronic infections, extreme difficulty urinating, and excruciating

865
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: pain if she attempts intercourse. The strain officially eventually destroyed

866
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 1: her marriage. She said seven hours of surgery completely changed

867
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: her life. I feel like a freak, Miss Phillips said,

868
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 1: I can't date, I can't ride horses, I can't urinate.

869
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: She characterized surgery is a form of sexual abuse and

870
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 1: said he stole parts of my body, which is fair. Uh, yeah,

871
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: that is not There's no Joe even so, there's not

872
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: a joke. It's a nightmare. It's a horrible, horrible man

873
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 1: who did horrible things um in the in the name

874
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 1: of medicine to women who trusted him implicitly. Um trust

875
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: no one. Women trust no one. Certainly not a guynecologist

876
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: who wears fur coats. That's that's that's the that that

877
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: auto warrants side. Gynecologists who worked in and around doctor

878
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: Burt knew about his surgery and recognized it because they

879
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: would often examine his former patients. Joy Martin, who was

880
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: a woman he performed his surgery on after delivering her

881
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: son in nineteen said doctors would say Dr Burt's done

882
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: surgery on you, hasn't he? Um? Yeah, because like they

883
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: would see like she would go in with she went

884
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 1: in with complaints and was like what if it feels

885
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: like something's wrong, And they'd be like, oh, yeah, you

886
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: had Dr Burt. He switched the holes. They knew what

887
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: he was doing. Um. It is import won't to note

888
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: that while James Burt went much further than any of

889
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 1: his colleagues, he was not alone in his obsession with

890
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: making female bodies better suited for heterosexual intercourse. Joseph Dilley,

891
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 1: an early twentieth century obstitution who helped popularize the epsiotomy,

892
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: recommended this surgery and its subsequent repair because it could

893
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 1: tighten the vagina and quote restore women to virginal conditions.

894
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies, author and childbirth experts Suzanne Arms

895
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: would argue that the real reason for this procedure was

896
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: to increase the ability of husbands to enjoy sex after childbirth.

897
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 1: In other words, Dr Burton his colleagues frame their various

898
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: tightening surgeries is being done for women, but their real

899
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: purpose was to make things more enjoyable for men. By

900
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: the mid nineteen seventies, public discussion of loose post childbirth

901
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: vaginas had become common and in popular culture. In nineteen

902
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: seventy four and his best selling book How to Get

903
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: More out of Sex, psychiatrist David Reuben urged mothers to

904
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: get vaginal tightening surgery, calling it a simple procedure that

905
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: could make a woman to forty almost the same sexually

906
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: as a girl of eighteen. That's pretty problematic. Yeah, yeah,

907
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: like on the news, where where is that? Um? Yeah,

908
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: that is a book How to Get More out of

909
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: Sex by psychiatrist David Ruben. Like that's a mainstream pop

910
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: psychiatrist being like, get tightened up so you'll be like

911
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: a teenager. Men love teenagers. You know. It's pretty bad. Um.

912
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 1: He claimed surgery could turn back the clock and turn

913
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: post birth vaginas from the Carl's bad caverns and back

914
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 1: into and I'm so sorry that I had to read

915
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: this and back back into the Penis's little grotto of pleasure.

916
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: Oh my fucking god, David Reuben. Everybody, Um, pretty bad,

917
00:51:55,600 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 1: pretty bad, bad and bad. So divorce rates started to

918
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: raise during the nineteen seventies, and in nineteen seventy six,

919
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 1: a Cosmopolitan article noted that popular myth blamed some of

920
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: this on loose vaginas. It argued that one way to

921
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:14,800
Speaker 1: keep a couple from splitting up was to quote tighten

922
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: up the vagina in order to enhance the pleasure of intercourse.

923
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: This article also explicitly urged women to get surgery, saying

924
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: that while keegels could help, they were unlikely to go

925
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: far enough. You wouldn't hesitate to go to a doctor

926
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: for surgery and a faulty appendix. So why hesitate when

927
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: the happiness of your sexual life maybe at steak God,

928
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: it's pretty bad now. I want to note that an

929
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 1: awful lot of mother's got variations on this surgery on

930
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: their own recognisance and had wonderful experiences. Um, it's still

931
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 1: not an uncommon thing to do after childbirth today, and

932
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: I'm not condemning the practice, just pointing out the extremely

933
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: sexist way in which it was presented and in which

934
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 1: men tended to urge it, because that's important context for

935
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: why Dr Burt didn't really think he was doing anything

936
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: people would have issues with. By the late nineteen seventies,

937
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: he'd started circumcising his patients clitterests in order to expose

938
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 1: more of the organ and make it more easily stimulated

939
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: by sexual intercourse. From the love surgeon quote, doctors understood

940
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 1: the sexual nature of the clitteress and it's importance to

941
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 1: female sexual pleasure, and thus some blamed the clitter is

942
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: for a woman's failure to orgasm with her husband. The

943
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 1: removal of the clatoral hood was an attempt to fix

944
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: this concern. Beginning in the late nineteenth century, at a

945
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: time when the espousal of female orgasm during marital sex

946
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: was increasingly seen as an important component of a healthy marriage,

947
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: physicians performed female circumcision to help married women who wanted

948
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: or whose husbands wanted their wives to have orgasms during

949
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 1: vaginal sex. This is also very important. Without understanding this,

950
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: it might actually look like Dr burt By performing love

951
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: surgery was showing more care for the sex lives of

952
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: his patients than the men urging them to tighten up

953
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 1: to avoid divorce. His surgery was focused on giving women

954
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: more orgasms, but for a profile only selfish reason, so

955
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: their husbands would feel like they were good at sex

956
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: without needing to do full play or God forbid, perform

957
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 1: oral sex. See, all of the improvements Dr Burt made

958
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: weren't actually correcting deficiencies in the vagina. They were correcting

959
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: deficiencies with standard missionary sex. Many women, maybe even most women,

960
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 1: won't regularly organized orgasm from simple missionary sex alone. This

961
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: is why four play and oral sex and other fucking

962
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,439
Speaker 1: positions are good things to try. Dr Burt thought thought

963
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,320
Speaker 1: all of that was abnormal and thus bad. Right, the

964
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: whole goal is for them to come from this, right,

965
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: from the kind of sex that lazy men in the

966
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: sixties most want to give them. How's he going to

967
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: be a missionary style swinger though, that's what I don't

968
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 1: know that he was a swinger. I'm guessing right. Maybe

969
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: he was not. Um, Okay, those people should have exposed

970
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 1: him to some more positions, that's all. Yeah. He seems

971
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: like the kind of guy who was bad enough at

972
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: sex that he had to perform a legal surgery in

973
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: order to please somebody. You know. Um, it's not great. Um,

974
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: it's not great. I love I love when men are

975
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, no, no, it's not me. It's

976
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: not me. It has to be there and stroke it

977
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: this way. Jesus Christ Man, there's not a whole family

978
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: of tools that have been invented to aid me in

979
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: this endeavor. Um, there's not a whole wide variety of

980
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 1: things like if if, if I can't please you in

981
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: the laziest way possible, it's time for serious, multi hour

982
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: long surgery. By the mid nineteen seventies, James Burtt felt

983
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,280
Speaker 1: that he had finally perfected his surgery. He was ready

984
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 1: to share it with the world, So in nineteen seventy,

985
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: he and his wife Joan co authored Yeah, they wrote

986
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 1: a book. They wrote a book. Joan was fully drinking

987
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: the coid, but because she was sucking five years younger. Yeah, yeah,

988
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: it's it's not great. Um. The book was titled I

989
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: Apologize for This Too, Surgery of Love. Now. This was

990
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 1: not a medical manual. It was more of a pop

991
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: medical text that functioned primarily as an advertisement for his

992
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: love surgery. It is I feel comfortable saying one of

993
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: the most offensive documents ever published. In part two, we'll

994
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: talk about what it said, but that is going to

995
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: be the end of the episode for today. Courtney, how

996
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: are you, how are you feeling shook? One word? Just

997
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: this is this is a whole this is these sucks.

998
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: He sucks. And also do have to be so careful

999
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: who you entrust your pussy too? And I feel like

1000
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: that still stands today forever. Yeah it does. You want

1001
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: to plug any um? I have a podcast about sex. Uh.

1002
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: We talk about pleasurable sex on my podcast Private Parts Unknown.

1003
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: So you need a little pick me up after this,

1004
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: go check it out. Check out, check that out, and

1005
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: check out I don't know the history of surgical abuse

1006
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: and problems with consent and medicine. Check that out on

1007
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: our next episode actually podcast M M