1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. There's a place in our world where the known 2 00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:29,116 Speaker 1: things go, a corridor of the mind, lined with shelves, 3 00:00:29,756 --> 00:00:39,236 Speaker 1: cluttered with proof. I'm hiding in here. Who's out there? 4 00:00:39,356 --> 00:00:43,116 Speaker 1: What do they what do they want? It sounds so angry. 5 00:00:44,156 --> 00:00:46,716 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they can get in. I don't see 6 00:00:46,756 --> 00:00:50,076 Speaker 1: how I can get out. I think I might be trapped. 7 00:00:56,996 --> 00:00:59,596 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Last Archive, the show about how we 8 00:00:59,676 --> 00:01:02,756 Speaker 1: know what we know and why it sometimes seems lately 9 00:01:03,236 --> 00:01:07,356 Speaker 1: as if we don't know anything at all. I'm Jill Lapoor. 10 00:01:09,156 --> 00:01:11,596 Speaker 1: This season, I've been trying to trace the history of 11 00:01:11,636 --> 00:01:15,116 Speaker 1: doubt over the course of the last century, building that 12 00:01:15,276 --> 00:01:19,876 Speaker 1: history block by block, a tower of doubt. Not too 13 00:01:19,876 --> 00:01:24,356 Speaker 1: long ago, it all came crashing down. It was the 14 00:01:24,356 --> 00:01:27,676 Speaker 1: beginning of the year twenty twenty one. Every archive of 15 00:01:27,756 --> 00:01:33,876 Speaker 1: knowledge seemed to be under attack, embattled universities, courthouses, press rooms, 16 00:01:34,756 --> 00:01:42,596 Speaker 1: even Congress. But I found it the last Archives. Escape hatch. 17 00:01:44,516 --> 00:01:47,076 Speaker 1: Come through with me. We'll have to go through a 18 00:01:47,116 --> 00:01:50,956 Speaker 1: war and of underground tunnels. We'll get there. We're heading 19 00:01:50,956 --> 00:02:01,076 Speaker 1: to a place called Iron Mountain. Something I love about history, 20 00:02:02,156 --> 00:02:06,516 Speaker 1: all the surprises, the twists and turns. So I'm starting 21 00:02:06,516 --> 00:02:09,916 Speaker 1: with a story that has so many turns. In the 22 00:02:09,996 --> 00:02:14,036 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, a German immigrant named Hermann Naust purchased an 23 00:02:14,036 --> 00:02:17,436 Speaker 1: abandoned iron ore mine in New York State near the 24 00:02:17,516 --> 00:02:22,316 Speaker 1: Hudson River. Inside its caves and old mining tunnels, Naust 25 00:02:22,596 --> 00:02:26,356 Speaker 1: grew mushrooms. The voice was perfect for it. The mushrooms 26 00:02:26,596 --> 00:02:30,196 Speaker 1: Mushroomednust began supplying the city with mushrooms, and he made 27 00:02:30,196 --> 00:02:33,756 Speaker 1: a fortune. People called him the mushroom King. At his 28 00:02:33,836 --> 00:02:36,716 Speaker 1: house he had the only mushroom shaped swimming pool in 29 00:02:36,756 --> 00:02:40,756 Speaker 1: the world. In nineteen fifty one, Neust adapted his caves 30 00:02:40,756 --> 00:02:44,036 Speaker 1: and mines and tunnels for a new business. He founded 31 00:02:44,196 --> 00:02:49,636 Speaker 1: the Iron Mountain Atomic Storage Corporation. Because at the time 32 00:02:49,756 --> 00:02:53,596 Speaker 1: Americans were crazy for bomb shelters. School children were ducking 33 00:02:53,596 --> 00:02:57,356 Speaker 1: and covering to prepare for a nuclear attack. Herman Naust 34 00:02:57,596 --> 00:03:01,836 Speaker 1: outed them all. An atomic bomb expert called Neust's vault 35 00:03:02,396 --> 00:03:06,716 Speaker 1: the safest place in the world. A thirty ton door 36 00:03:06,796 --> 00:03:08,836 Speaker 1: equipped with a time lock will guard one of the 37 00:03:08,876 --> 00:03:11,636 Speaker 1: main passages in which four one hundred vaults are located. 38 00:03:11,716 --> 00:03:15,356 Speaker 1: During the initial phase of the enterprise, already foreign banks 39 00:03:15,356 --> 00:03:19,036 Speaker 1: have applied for storage space behind the massive door. Museums 40 00:03:19,116 --> 00:03:22,836 Speaker 1: also are expected to seek protection for their placeless art treasures. 41 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:27,116 Speaker 1: In the atmosphere of international tension, banked files and records 42 00:03:27,196 --> 00:03:30,276 Speaker 1: begin to find their way into the sanctuary. You could 43 00:03:30,276 --> 00:03:34,196 Speaker 1: put your most valuable documents there, wills, photographs, legal papers. 44 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:37,836 Speaker 1: The company grew and grew a Cold War knowledge vault, 45 00:03:38,116 --> 00:03:42,556 Speaker 1: a last archive along the Hudson. These days, Iron Mountain 46 00:03:42,636 --> 00:03:45,716 Speaker 1: is still in business. It's a global records management company, 47 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:49,076 Speaker 1: the world's biggest, with a four billion dollar annual revenue 48 00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:52,516 Speaker 1: and facilities in more than fifty countries. You might have 49 00:03:52,556 --> 00:03:55,596 Speaker 1: seen their trucks with a blue triangular logo. I see 50 00:03:55,596 --> 00:03:58,396 Speaker 1: those trucks all the time, rumbling up and down the road. 51 00:03:59,356 --> 00:04:03,356 Speaker 1: Iron Mountain stores everything, including the records of nearly every 52 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:07,716 Speaker 1: fortune one thousand company. They've also got Frank Sinatra's original 53 00:04:07,756 --> 00:04:11,876 Speaker 1: recordings and Charles Dickens's last will and testament. Back in 54 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:15,156 Speaker 1: the scariest years of the Cold War, though Iron Mountain 55 00:04:15,196 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 1: Atomic Storage offered something more than storage. It offered secrecy. 56 00:04:20,876 --> 00:04:25,516 Speaker 1: Iron Mountain, under a blanket of iron ore alternate underground 57 00:04:25,516 --> 00:04:29,836 Speaker 1: headquarters for corporations that ad ran in nineteen sixty two, 58 00:04:30,076 --> 00:04:32,956 Speaker 1: the year of the Cuban missile crisis. If you own 59 00:04:32,956 --> 00:04:35,596 Speaker 1: a company and wanted to hold a top secret meeting, 60 00:04:35,836 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 1: why not hold it in hidden conference room's deep underground 61 00:04:39,236 --> 00:04:41,876 Speaker 1: Doctor Evil style. Or you might want to hold your 62 00:04:41,916 --> 00:04:44,156 Speaker 1: meetings down there if you were to say a super 63 00:04:44,236 --> 00:04:50,236 Speaker 1: secret government agency. In nineteen sixty seven, a few years 64 00:04:50,276 --> 00:04:54,036 Speaker 1: after Iron Mountain advertised its secret Layer meeting service, a 65 00:04:54,116 --> 00:04:58,156 Speaker 1: little book appeared in bookstores. It was called Report from 66 00:04:58,196 --> 00:05:03,236 Speaker 1: Iron Mountain on the Possibility and Desirability of Peace. The 67 00:05:03,276 --> 00:05:05,796 Speaker 1: book described itself as the record of a fifteen man 68 00:05:06,036 --> 00:05:09,196 Speaker 1: special study group that had gathered at Iron Mountain in 69 00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:12,996 Speaker 1: those top secret underground meeting rooms. And here was the 70 00:05:12,996 --> 00:05:18,036 Speaker 1: book's bombshell. It was never supposed to be published, but 71 00:05:18,196 --> 00:05:21,356 Speaker 1: someone had leaked it. A member of the secret group 72 00:05:21,596 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 1: identified only as a professor of social science from a 73 00:05:24,636 --> 00:05:30,396 Speaker 1: large middlewestern university. The report itself was totally wonky wonky 74 00:05:30,756 --> 00:05:35,716 Speaker 1: but shocking. The permanent possibility of war is the foundation 75 00:05:35,796 --> 00:05:39,716 Speaker 1: for stable government. It supplies the basis for general acceptance 76 00:05:39,756 --> 00:05:45,596 Speaker 1: of political authority. The special study group had been convened, 77 00:05:45,716 --> 00:05:50,036 Speaker 1: it was said, in response to a peace scare. Members 78 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 1: of the group talked about how devastating it would be 79 00:05:52,436 --> 00:05:55,116 Speaker 1: if the United States were ever for any length of 80 00:05:55,156 --> 00:05:58,476 Speaker 1: time at peace. As if the only thing that kept 81 00:05:58,476 --> 00:06:01,036 Speaker 1: the American people from shaking off the chains of their 82 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:07,516 Speaker 1: submission was war. Endless war, it has ensured the subordination 83 00:06:07,556 --> 00:06:11,156 Speaker 1: of the citizen to the state. No modern political ruling 84 00:06:11,156 --> 00:06:15,356 Speaker 1: group has successfully controlled its constituency. After failing to sustain 85 00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:20,956 Speaker 1: the continuing credibility of an external threat of war, report 86 00:06:21,036 --> 00:06:23,876 Speaker 1: from Iron Mountain concluded that the US needed to keep 87 00:06:23,916 --> 00:06:28,116 Speaker 1: those wars coming. But if, given the growing anti war movement, 88 00:06:28,156 --> 00:06:31,356 Speaker 1: a dreaded peace did descend upon the land, there were 89 00:06:31,396 --> 00:06:34,876 Speaker 1: still ways for the US government to find substitutes for 90 00:06:34,996 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 1: functions of war. This is so crazy, I'm going to 91 00:06:37,676 --> 00:06:41,476 Speaker 1: explain it again. According to this report, the US government 92 00:06:41,596 --> 00:06:44,596 Speaker 1: was trying desperately to keep the nation at war, but 93 00:06:44,676 --> 00:06:48,356 Speaker 1: if their worst fears were realized and peace came, they 94 00:06:48,396 --> 00:06:54,956 Speaker 1: had other options other ways to stifle discontent. A comprehensive 95 00:06:54,996 --> 00:06:59,636 Speaker 1: social welfare program, a giant open end space research program 96 00:06:59,756 --> 00:07:05,236 Speaker 1: aimed at unreachable targets and established and recognized extra terrestrial menace, 97 00:07:05,796 --> 00:07:13,916 Speaker 1: massive global environmental pollution, fictitious alternate enemies, bully moonshot Batman. 98 00:07:14,076 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 1: This leaked report was hot, hot hot. It became a 99 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:20,836 Speaker 1: best seller on the New York Times list was translated 100 00:07:20,876 --> 00:07:24,956 Speaker 1: into fifteen languages. Esquire published an excerpt. Of course. People 101 00:07:24,956 --> 00:07:28,356 Speaker 1: tried to find that Midwestern social science professor who leaked it, 102 00:07:28,596 --> 00:07:31,636 Speaker 1: and they wanted to know which government department had commissioned it. 103 00:07:32,196 --> 00:07:34,196 Speaker 1: A reporter from The New York Times called around to 104 00:07:34,196 --> 00:07:36,796 Speaker 1: the White House under the State Department and then noted, 105 00:07:37,316 --> 00:07:41,316 Speaker 1: no advanced reviewer has flatly labeled the book fiction. People 106 00:07:41,316 --> 00:07:44,476 Speaker 1: who read it were incensed, but report from Iron Mountain 107 00:07:44,516 --> 00:07:47,876 Speaker 1: proved very difficult to verify, even though some people thought 108 00:07:47,876 --> 00:07:50,876 Speaker 1: the whole thing was just a hoax. If it's authentic, 109 00:07:50,916 --> 00:07:53,876 Speaker 1: it's an enormous, roaring scandal, one scholar told The New 110 00:07:53,956 --> 00:08:00,196 Speaker 1: York Times. If it's caricature, it's a brilliant job. Eventually, 111 00:08:00,276 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 1: most people forgot about it, but then in nineteen seventy one, 112 00:08:04,116 --> 00:08:08,276 Speaker 1: another government report was leaked to the press. This weekend, 113 00:08:08,436 --> 00:08:11,996 Speaker 1: portions of a classified Pentagon document came the light for 114 00:08:12,036 --> 00:08:15,516 Speaker 1: all the world to see, brought cries of outrage from Washington. 115 00:08:15,796 --> 00:08:19,116 Speaker 1: The New York Times began publishing parts of a voluminous 116 00:08:19,156 --> 00:08:21,876 Speaker 1: report that the Pentagon had drawn up on the causes 117 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:27,236 Speaker 1: and conduct of American involvement in Vietnam. The Pentagon Papers 118 00:08:27,276 --> 00:08:29,956 Speaker 1: revealed decades of lying by the federal government to the 119 00:08:29,996 --> 00:08:32,476 Speaker 1: public about what had really been going on in the 120 00:08:32,516 --> 00:08:36,116 Speaker 1: war in Vietnam. Senator George McGovern, a leading critic of 121 00:08:36,156 --> 00:08:39,316 Speaker 1: the war, called the report and we quote, a story 122 00:08:39,396 --> 00:08:44,676 Speaker 1: of almost incredible deception. This is where this history gets twisty, Tourney. 123 00:08:45,196 --> 00:08:48,276 Speaker 1: The publication of the Pentagon Papers brought the authors of 124 00:08:48,316 --> 00:08:51,396 Speaker 1: the Report from Iron Mountain out into the open, because, 125 00:08:51,756 --> 00:08:55,796 Speaker 1: unlike the Pentagon Papers, which were entirely real, the Report 126 00:08:55,836 --> 00:09:01,516 Speaker 1: from Iron Mountain was in fact entirely made up. So 127 00:09:02,076 --> 00:09:05,236 Speaker 1: just to be extra extra clear here, there never was 128 00:09:05,316 --> 00:09:08,636 Speaker 1: any special study group, had never met at Iron Mountain, 129 00:09:09,156 --> 00:09:13,276 Speaker 1: and this recording, no modern political ruling group has successfully 130 00:09:13,276 --> 00:09:17,596 Speaker 1: controlled its constituency after failing to sustain the continuing credit. 131 00:09:17,636 --> 00:09:20,036 Speaker 1: That's one of our actors reading a document that is 132 00:09:20,116 --> 00:09:24,036 Speaker 1: in fact a fake. In nineteen seventy two, in the 133 00:09:24,076 --> 00:09:27,036 Speaker 1: New York Times Book Review, a writer named Leonard Lewin 134 00:09:27,276 --> 00:09:30,236 Speaker 1: revealed that the Report from Iron Mountain had been a 135 00:09:30,356 --> 00:09:34,556 Speaker 1: hoax intended as a satire. It involved some pretty high 136 00:09:34,596 --> 00:09:38,396 Speaker 1: level people. Even the renowned economist John Kenneth Galbraith was 137 00:09:38,396 --> 00:09:42,396 Speaker 1: in on it. But Lewin confessed I wrote the report, 138 00:09:42,596 --> 00:09:46,796 Speaker 1: all of it. The charade is over. The idea had 139 00:09:46,836 --> 00:09:50,076 Speaker 1: come from Victor Navasky, a leftist writer who later became 140 00:09:50,156 --> 00:09:53,156 Speaker 1: Editor of the Nation, who was all a lark, an 141 00:09:53,196 --> 00:09:56,956 Speaker 1: angry one. As Navasky told NPRS Fresh Air in nineteen 142 00:09:57,036 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 1: ninety six, the idea for a report from Iron Mountain 143 00:10:00,436 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 1: came to me one day when I saw a little 144 00:10:04,156 --> 00:10:07,436 Speaker 1: headline in the newspaper saying that the stock market had 145 00:10:07,596 --> 00:10:10,996 Speaker 1: fallen abruptly because of a peace scare. And we got 146 00:10:10,996 --> 00:10:16,596 Speaker 1: an idea to do a book about the quashing of 147 00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:19,916 Speaker 1: a report which was commissioned by the White House to 148 00:10:19,956 --> 00:10:24,396 Speaker 1: plan the transition from a wartime to a peacetime economy. 149 00:10:24,996 --> 00:10:27,476 Speaker 1: And we would do a kind of hoax book about 150 00:10:28,596 --> 00:10:32,636 Speaker 1: what happened when the commission concluded that the economy would 151 00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:36,036 Speaker 1: collapse if peace really broke out. The Report from Iron 152 00:10:36,076 --> 00:10:39,996 Speaker 1: Mountain hoax brought the storage company Iron Mountain, the real place, 153 00:10:40,516 --> 00:10:43,636 Speaker 1: a lot of grief, and it wasn't fair because, let 154 00:10:43,636 --> 00:10:46,516 Speaker 1: me be clear, the storage company had nothing to do 155 00:10:46,596 --> 00:10:51,796 Speaker 1: with this hoax. But meanwhile the Hoax Report had acquired 156 00:10:51,836 --> 00:10:55,756 Speaker 1: a huge following among conspiracy theorists. They read it as 157 00:10:55,756 --> 00:10:59,036 Speaker 1: incriminating evidence. They put it on their bookshelves, and when 158 00:10:59,076 --> 00:11:03,236 Speaker 1: the authors revealed themselves to be pranksters, it didn't change anything. 159 00:11:04,076 --> 00:11:06,876 Speaker 1: A lot of conspiracy minded fans of the book simply 160 00:11:06,916 --> 00:11:09,476 Speaker 1: refused to believe this new turn of events. They just 161 00:11:09,476 --> 00:11:11,516 Speaker 1: couldn't take that book out of the mental box that 162 00:11:11,596 --> 00:11:15,196 Speaker 1: said government report written in secret underground bunker and put 163 00:11:15,236 --> 00:11:18,316 Speaker 1: it in the box that said hooks. They were still 164 00:11:18,316 --> 00:11:21,396 Speaker 1: talking about it decades later, like in this nineteen ninety 165 00:11:21,396 --> 00:11:26,476 Speaker 1: three video cassette Blueprint for Tyranny. Welcome to the Report 166 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:33,916 Speaker 1: from Iron Mountain. This report is something you would never 167 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:39,996 Speaker 1: believe unless you read it. Peace in reality equals world socialism, 168 00:11:39,996 --> 00:11:43,436 Speaker 1: as we will find out as we journey through this report. 169 00:11:44,676 --> 00:11:48,676 Speaker 1: If anything, conspiracy theorists cherish the fake book more as 170 00:11:48,716 --> 00:11:51,556 Speaker 1: the years passed. They read it avidly, passed it around, 171 00:11:51,756 --> 00:11:54,436 Speaker 1: kept it close to their vests, used it even as 172 00:11:54,436 --> 00:11:58,436 Speaker 1: a manual a manifesto for opposition to the federal government. 173 00:11:59,116 --> 00:12:02,756 Speaker 1: And then in nineteen ninety five and Oklahoma City, some 174 00:12:02,836 --> 00:12:08,116 Speaker 1: of those right wing conspiracy theorists staged and insurrection. The 175 00:12:08,236 --> 00:12:11,236 Speaker 1: exploded off around nine am, and we can feel the 176 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:16,876 Speaker 1: explosion mimmy newsroom of our channel nine ELW Holy Cow. 177 00:12:17,716 --> 00:12:20,196 Speaker 1: About a third of the building has been blown away. 178 00:12:21,516 --> 00:12:24,916 Speaker 1: On April nineteenth, nineteen ninety five, a truck packed with 179 00:12:24,996 --> 00:12:28,556 Speaker 1: nearly five thousand pounds of explosives detonated outside the nine 180 00:12:28,596 --> 00:12:33,516 Speaker 1: story Alfred Pmor Federal Building, killing one hundred and sixty 181 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:37,796 Speaker 1: eight people, including nineteen very little children at a daycare center. 182 00:12:38,996 --> 00:12:42,876 Speaker 1: The explosion injured hundreds more. And we can also give 183 00:12:42,876 --> 00:12:44,916 Speaker 1: you a bit of a hint now as to where 184 00:12:44,956 --> 00:12:48,956 Speaker 1: the government appears to be focusing its investigation on some 185 00:12:49,036 --> 00:12:52,676 Speaker 1: of the what are called right wing white supremacist groups 186 00:12:52,676 --> 00:12:56,556 Speaker 1: in various parts of the country. Eventually, two men were 187 00:12:56,636 --> 00:13:00,076 Speaker 1: charged with eleven federal crimes. They were the sort of 188 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:03,836 Speaker 1: guys who believed that the report from Iron Mountain was real. 189 00:13:05,876 --> 00:13:09,436 Speaker 1: The indictment charges that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, former 190 00:13:09,556 --> 00:13:12,516 Speaker 1: Army buddies with a grudge against the government, planned the bombing, 191 00:13:12,636 --> 00:13:15,756 Speaker 1: selected the Mura Federal Building in Oklahoma City as their target, 192 00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:19,236 Speaker 1: bought and stole materials for the bomb and build it 193 00:13:22,836 --> 00:13:26,716 Speaker 1: After the Oklahoma City bombing, Americans suddenly started paying attention 194 00:13:26,796 --> 00:13:30,396 Speaker 1: to right wing insurrectionists. Who were these people? Where did 195 00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:34,076 Speaker 1: they get their ideas? Those ideas mainly came from books. 196 00:13:34,516 --> 00:13:36,716 Speaker 1: I don't know if Timothy McVeigh read the Report from 197 00:13:36,756 --> 00:13:40,396 Speaker 1: Iron Mountain or watched those video cassettes about it, but 198 00:13:40,556 --> 00:13:42,716 Speaker 1: he did have a book that's usually right next to 199 00:13:42,756 --> 00:13:47,956 Speaker 1: it on every right wing extremist's bookshelf. Inside mcveagh's Yellow 200 00:13:47,956 --> 00:13:52,316 Speaker 1: Mercury Sedan, investigators discovered a sealed envelope containing evidence that 201 00:13:52,356 --> 00:13:57,276 Speaker 1: would prove crucial to analyzing mcvay's motivations, highlighted passages from 202 00:13:57,276 --> 00:14:01,396 Speaker 1: the anti government novel The Turner Diaries. The Turner Diaries 203 00:14:01,556 --> 00:14:04,196 Speaker 1: is a nineteen seventy eight novel by an avowed American 204 00:14:04,276 --> 00:14:08,156 Speaker 1: neo Nazi. It includes a detailed account of somebody building 205 00:14:08,156 --> 00:14:11,956 Speaker 1: an explosive device, putting it into a truck, and driving 206 00:14:11,996 --> 00:14:16,796 Speaker 1: it up to a federal building. McVeigh seemed to have 207 00:14:16,836 --> 00:14:20,916 Speaker 1: treated The Turner Diaries as an instruction manual in a 208 00:14:20,956 --> 00:14:24,356 Speaker 1: similar way, a lot of his fellow extremists considered Report 209 00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:27,716 Speaker 1: from Iron Mountain as some kind of decoder ring. When 210 00:14:27,756 --> 00:14:32,396 Speaker 1: Magazine reported it has become required reading for militias, Nazi sympathizers, 211 00:14:32,436 --> 00:14:34,476 Speaker 1: and other right wing types who deny that it's a 212 00:14:34,476 --> 00:14:37,516 Speaker 1: hoax and cited as evidence of plans for a new 213 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:42,556 Speaker 1: world order. The instigator of the hoax, Victor Navasky, was horrified, 214 00:14:43,276 --> 00:14:45,516 Speaker 1: as he explained on Fresh Air, he had found out 215 00:14:45,516 --> 00:14:49,156 Speaker 1: that Liberty Lobby, a white supremacist group, had reprinted the 216 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:53,516 Speaker 1: report and was to them a kind of bible. They 217 00:14:53,516 --> 00:14:56,676 Speaker 1: were so persuaded that the report was the real thing 218 00:14:56,756 --> 00:15:01,076 Speaker 1: that they didn't bother to get copyright permission to reprint it, 219 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:03,436 Speaker 1: and had reprinted it as if it were a government 220 00:15:03,476 --> 00:15:07,796 Speaker 1: document and we're selling it. Navasky's original partner in crime, 221 00:15:07,916 --> 00:15:11,836 Speaker 1: Leonard Lewin, sued Liberty Lobby and reached a settlement. In 222 00:15:11,916 --> 00:15:14,356 Speaker 1: the end, they had to surrender to him their copies 223 00:15:14,356 --> 00:15:17,676 Speaker 1: of report from Iron Mountain, who unstashed them in his basement. 224 00:15:18,636 --> 00:15:20,796 Speaker 1: But it was too late to stop this left wing 225 00:15:20,836 --> 00:15:24,876 Speaker 1: hoax turned right wing conspiracy. Navasky wrote in the Nation 226 00:15:24,956 --> 00:15:28,756 Speaker 1: about its acceptance by superpatriots and conspiracy theorists of the 227 00:15:28,796 --> 00:15:31,796 Speaker 1: far right. He said that they're taking it seriously was 228 00:15:31,836 --> 00:15:38,116 Speaker 1: the scariest proposition of all. It has since gotten even scarier. 229 00:15:38,716 --> 00:15:41,596 Speaker 1: Since the nineteen nineties, the Report from Iron Mountain has 230 00:15:41,596 --> 00:15:44,956 Speaker 1: passed from generation to generation like some kind of scripture. 231 00:15:45,916 --> 00:15:48,116 Speaker 1: On the sixth of January twenty twenty one, the day 232 00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:52,276 Speaker 1: insurrectionists attacked the US capital, some creep on four Chan 233 00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:56,636 Speaker 1: posted in the cavalierly ugly language in this hideous corner 234 00:15:56,636 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 1: of the Internet, read the Report from Iron Mountain, you 235 00:15:59,876 --> 00:16:04,516 Speaker 1: brainless retard. These days you'll still find Report from Iron 236 00:16:04,516 --> 00:16:07,956 Speaker 1: Mountain on far right white supremacist reading lists with no 237 00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 1: mention that it was a left wing hoax. And now 238 00:16:12,356 --> 00:16:15,276 Speaker 1: it has a new reading list companion, the writings of 239 00:16:15,356 --> 00:16:19,156 Speaker 1: Q the anonymous alleged insider who drops clues about all 240 00:16:19,156 --> 00:16:24,436 Speaker 1: the evil goings on inside the government. Just recently I 241 00:16:24,476 --> 00:16:28,516 Speaker 1: called up Victor Navasky. He's nearly ninety. It was really 242 00:16:28,516 --> 00:16:30,796 Speaker 1: good of him to talk to me. We both found 243 00:16:30,836 --> 00:16:33,316 Speaker 1: like we're under Iron Mountain. Though, because the phone line 244 00:16:33,356 --> 00:16:37,276 Speaker 1: is pretty bad. It's a fantasy to believe that it's true. 245 00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 1: And I think qan On is guilty of its own fantasies. 246 00:16:42,076 --> 00:16:45,196 Speaker 1: Do you think if someone presented himself to the world 247 00:16:45,236 --> 00:16:47,996 Speaker 1: tomorrow and said, I am que and I can prove 248 00:16:48,076 --> 00:16:51,396 Speaker 1: that I am QUE and I was just joking the 249 00:16:51,476 --> 00:16:54,156 Speaker 1: whole time, and it got out of hand. None of 250 00:16:54,156 --> 00:16:57,116 Speaker 1: this is true. Would there be any way I'm doing 251 00:16:57,116 --> 00:17:01,716 Speaker 1: what had been done? I don't think so myself. I 252 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:06,436 Speaker 1: think that's where we are as a culture. And unfortunately, 253 00:17:08,596 --> 00:17:11,516 Speaker 1: the Q and On report goes something like this. An 254 00:17:11,556 --> 00:17:14,876 Speaker 1: insider decides to spill the beans about a secret government 255 00:17:14,956 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 1: run conspiracy, something to do with Satan and pedophiles. He 256 00:17:20,396 --> 00:17:24,316 Speaker 1: leaks some clues in a report, and then report after report, 257 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:27,556 Speaker 1: and the people who read those reports, those postings by 258 00:17:27,556 --> 00:17:32,156 Speaker 1: this anonymous QUE become passionately attached to the idea of 259 00:17:32,196 --> 00:17:36,116 Speaker 1: a conspiracy, and within the logic of that conspiracy, they're 260 00:17:36,116 --> 00:17:39,196 Speaker 1: being denied access to knowledge, some secret body of knowledge 261 00:17:39,236 --> 00:17:41,996 Speaker 1: hidden away that only the people in power have access to, 262 00:17:42,796 --> 00:17:45,236 Speaker 1: and that the followers of Q have to hunt down 263 00:17:45,636 --> 00:17:58,876 Speaker 1: and piece together clue by clue, Q by Q. Q 264 00:17:59,436 --> 00:18:03,116 Speaker 1: isn't true. Also, I don't buy either of the two 265 00:18:03,116 --> 00:18:06,316 Speaker 1: big headlines about Q and On that it's new or 266 00:18:06,356 --> 00:18:09,436 Speaker 1: that it's uniquely powerful. That's what I've been trying to 267 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:11,996 Speaker 1: argue by going over the story of the report from 268 00:18:11,996 --> 00:18:15,916 Speaker 1: Iron Mountain. This stuff isn't new, it's not all powerful, 269 00:18:16,596 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: and it has never ever been a secret. This election 270 00:18:20,396 --> 00:18:23,276 Speaker 1: will be the most rigged election in history. That is 271 00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:26,316 Speaker 1: a lie, an old fashioned lie, but it's also a 272 00:18:26,356 --> 00:18:29,916 Speaker 1: complex lie. The sort of lie that brings together every 273 00:18:29,996 --> 00:18:33,476 Speaker 1: kind of doubt whose rise I've been chronicling all season long, 274 00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:37,676 Speaker 1: has little boats of doubt, rowboats, canoes. They become a 275 00:18:37,716 --> 00:18:41,796 Speaker 1: fleet of flotilla in Armada. They're sending millions of ballots 276 00:18:41,796 --> 00:18:45,396 Speaker 1: all over the country. There's fraud. They found him in creeks. 277 00:18:45,596 --> 00:18:47,796 Speaker 1: They found some with the name Trump. Just happened to 278 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:49,756 Speaker 1: have the name Trump just the other day in a 279 00:18:49,796 --> 00:18:52,796 Speaker 1: waste paper basket. This is going to be a fraud 280 00:18:52,916 --> 00:18:55,716 Speaker 1: like you've never seen. It was awful to watch this 281 00:18:55,876 --> 00:18:58,316 Speaker 1: unfold in the months leading up to the twenty twenty 282 00:18:58,356 --> 00:19:02,196 Speaker 1: election and in the months afterward, to watch it spread 283 00:19:02,236 --> 00:19:04,996 Speaker 1: on the internet and hear it from the mouth of 284 00:19:05,076 --> 00:19:09,716 Speaker 1: the US President. He said it again and again and again. 285 00:19:11,276 --> 00:19:13,876 Speaker 1: If enough people in public and in positions of authority 286 00:19:13,996 --> 00:19:17,116 Speaker 1: lie about something for long enough, people will believe it. 287 00:19:18,196 --> 00:19:22,596 Speaker 1: Watching it all, I felt as if my brain was unrewind. Specifically, 288 00:19:22,876 --> 00:19:25,716 Speaker 1: my head kept rewinding back to a brilliant book published 289 00:19:25,796 --> 00:19:29,596 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four called A Social History of Truth 290 00:19:29,996 --> 00:19:33,116 Speaker 1: by Stephen Chapin, Emeritus Professor of the History of Science 291 00:19:33,156 --> 00:19:37,316 Speaker 1: at Harvard. Chapin was writing about gentleman philosophers in the 292 00:19:37,356 --> 00:19:40,716 Speaker 1: seventeenth century in England. But I find his book so 293 00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:43,636 Speaker 1: wholly applies to the President that I asked him to 294 00:19:43,676 --> 00:19:48,556 Speaker 1: read my favorite lines. Knowledge is a collective good. In 295 00:19:48,636 --> 00:19:53,276 Speaker 1: securing our knowledge, we rely upon others, and we cannot 296 00:19:53,316 --> 00:19:57,556 Speaker 1: dispense without reliance. That means that the relations in which 297 00:19:57,596 --> 00:20:00,836 Speaker 1: we have and hold our knowledge have a moral character. 298 00:20:01,516 --> 00:20:04,076 Speaker 1: And the word I used to indicate that moral relation 299 00:20:04,476 --> 00:20:09,356 Speaker 1: is trust. He argues that you can't actually you know 300 00:20:09,396 --> 00:20:12,596 Speaker 1: anything alone. You can only know things with other people. 301 00:20:13,516 --> 00:20:15,676 Speaker 1: He doesn't think the United States or the world is 302 00:20:15,716 --> 00:20:18,756 Speaker 1: experiencing a crisis of truth. He thinks it would be 303 00:20:18,756 --> 00:20:23,196 Speaker 1: better called a crisis of social knowledge. For example, and 304 00:20:23,316 --> 00:20:27,676 Speaker 1: in particular around climate change. I know something about the 305 00:20:27,756 --> 00:20:31,516 Speaker 1: loss of biodiversity and species, about melting icebergs, about sea 306 00:20:31,636 --> 00:20:35,756 Speaker 1: level rise. Okay, now someone puts pressure on me and say, 307 00:20:35,796 --> 00:20:38,516 Speaker 1: how do I know these things? I don't think any 308 00:20:38,516 --> 00:20:42,916 Speaker 1: of us know these things directly. So the knowledge that 309 00:20:43,076 --> 00:20:46,396 Speaker 1: I need to know these things is to know who 310 00:20:46,436 --> 00:20:50,236 Speaker 1: to believe, who has credibility, who has authority to trust 311 00:20:52,716 --> 00:20:55,596 Speaker 1: to know anything, Then you have to know who to trust. 312 00:20:56,276 --> 00:20:58,756 Speaker 1: If you doubt everything, it's because you trust no one. 313 00:21:00,036 --> 00:21:03,596 Speaker 1: I find this framework really helpful. No one has killed truth. 314 00:21:04,396 --> 00:21:07,716 Speaker 1: Instead we have this crisis of trust. But how did 315 00:21:07,716 --> 00:21:10,796 Speaker 1: people stop knowing who to trust? One answer to that 316 00:21:10,876 --> 00:21:14,916 Speaker 1: question involves the unintended consequences of new technologies of communication. 317 00:21:15,396 --> 00:21:18,476 Speaker 1: We've been hearing about those all season. How radio, for example, 318 00:21:18,596 --> 00:21:23,436 Speaker 1: amplified all kinds of extremism, but broadcasts only reached so far. 319 00:21:24,316 --> 00:21:26,956 Speaker 1: Then came the Internet, starting with bolton boards and chat 320 00:21:27,036 --> 00:21:29,996 Speaker 1: rooms in the nineteen nineties, but we still think of 321 00:21:30,036 --> 00:21:32,636 Speaker 1: it the way we thought about radio in the nineteen thirties. 322 00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 1: The phrase echo chamber comes up a lot, an acoustic metaphor. 323 00:21:38,676 --> 00:21:42,796 Speaker 1: So there's a million voices they're screaming out there, but 324 00:21:43,476 --> 00:21:48,156 Speaker 1: any any body or any group of like mind that 325 00:21:48,196 --> 00:21:51,996 Speaker 1: people are listening to some and not to others. So 326 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:56,836 Speaker 1: there's another kind of question about what for us is 327 00:21:56,876 --> 00:22:00,396 Speaker 1: audible and what for them is audible? Right, But then 328 00:22:00,476 --> 00:22:05,916 Speaker 1: that metaphor of audibility and voice voice also meaning vote 329 00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:08,236 Speaker 1: you know has the implications for democracy, which is to 330 00:22:08,276 --> 00:22:10,196 Speaker 1: say we will hear all the voices, and that we 331 00:22:10,316 --> 00:22:14,516 Speaker 1: will we will automate a system wherein we hear everyone 332 00:22:14,556 --> 00:22:18,476 Speaker 1: who's enfranchised. But then now we're in a crisis of 333 00:22:18,556 --> 00:22:21,996 Speaker 1: democracy around people not feeling heard. Right. I mean, if 334 00:22:21,996 --> 00:22:23,636 Speaker 1: we just think about the siege of the capital and 335 00:22:23,716 --> 00:22:26,156 Speaker 1: if you listen to interviews with those people, we're here 336 00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:29,596 Speaker 1: to have our voices heard. A democratic project. Everyone has 337 00:22:29,596 --> 00:22:36,116 Speaker 1: a voice, Well, we've heard them now. Still, the argument 338 00:22:36,116 --> 00:22:38,916 Speaker 1: that technology allows fakers and haters to find each other 339 00:22:38,956 --> 00:22:43,596 Speaker 1: more easily, Stephen Shapin thinks that's just too glib. It's 340 00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:45,516 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I love talking with him. He 341 00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:48,396 Speaker 1: got me thinking harder about another argument to explain what 342 00:22:48,436 --> 00:22:51,636 Speaker 1: has happened to Americans and trust over the past century. 343 00:22:52,116 --> 00:22:55,516 Speaker 1: That argument is political. It involves what one set of 344 00:22:55,556 --> 00:22:58,956 Speaker 1: political actors have done to institutions over time in order 345 00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:02,796 Speaker 1: to shift the balance of power in their favor. Do 346 00:23:02,836 --> 00:23:05,076 Speaker 1: you mean to say the Supreme Court decision is null 347 00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:08,716 Speaker 1: and void? No, it Supreme Court decision is not necessarily 348 00:23:08,756 --> 00:23:12,476 Speaker 1: the law all the land. The Constitution still is. That's 349 00:23:12,516 --> 00:23:16,796 Speaker 1: Republican Senator Barry Goldwater making a conservative argument that the 350 00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:20,836 Speaker 1: Supreme Court had overstepped in its decision to abolish segregation 351 00:23:21,156 --> 00:23:24,156 Speaker 1: in Brown versus Board of Education in nineteen fifty four. 352 00:23:25,476 --> 00:23:28,076 Speaker 1: Conservatives at the time were very much out of power. 353 00:23:28,556 --> 00:23:31,716 Speaker 1: Goldwater was an upstart, but his wing wanted to take 354 00:23:31,756 --> 00:23:34,676 Speaker 1: over the GOP, and then they wanted to take over 355 00:23:34,716 --> 00:23:38,876 Speaker 1: the country. And so, beginning in the nineteen fifties, conservatives 356 00:23:38,876 --> 00:23:42,236 Speaker 1: engaged in a sustained assault on trust and institutions that 357 00:23:42,316 --> 00:23:49,116 Speaker 1: produce and diffuse knowledge. Three institutions, especially the courts, the press, 358 00:23:49,516 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 1: and the university. These institutions, they said, were all dominated 359 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:59,596 Speaker 1: by liberals, first, the courts and the supposed liberal bias 360 00:23:59,596 --> 00:24:03,196 Speaker 1: of the judiciary. Whatever you do, Goldwater said, don't trust 361 00:24:03,196 --> 00:24:07,956 Speaker 1: the courts. They interpreted by that action that it was 362 00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:12,716 Speaker 1: wrong to have segregation. Now, they didn't spell out what 363 00:24:12,876 --> 00:24:16,636 Speaker 1: was to be done. Other Conservatives went after institutions of 364 00:24:16,716 --> 00:24:20,436 Speaker 1: higher learning. William F. Buckley led the assault against the Academy, 365 00:24:20,756 --> 00:24:23,916 Speaker 1: beginning with this nineteen fifty one book, God and Man 366 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:26,556 Speaker 1: at Yale. I would well have be governed by the 367 00:24:26,596 --> 00:24:29,716 Speaker 1: first two thousand people in the Boston telephone directory and 368 00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:32,076 Speaker 1: by the two thousand people on the faculty of all 369 00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:37,796 Speaker 1: the university. Buckley said, whatever you do, don't trust the professors. 370 00:24:38,916 --> 00:24:41,636 Speaker 1: The third front in this war on institutions of knowledge 371 00:24:41,836 --> 00:24:44,116 Speaker 1: was an attack on the press. This began with the 372 00:24:44,236 --> 00:24:47,956 Speaker 1: Nixon administration, and most famously with a speech given by 373 00:24:47,996 --> 00:24:52,796 Speaker 1: his vice president, Spiro Agnew in nineteen sixty nine. Whatever 374 00:24:52,836 --> 00:24:56,636 Speaker 1: you do, Agnew said, don't trust the press. These men 375 00:24:56,756 --> 00:25:00,996 Speaker 1: can create national issues overnight. They can elevate men from 376 00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:05,076 Speaker 1: obscurity to national prominence within a week. They can reward 377 00:25:05,196 --> 00:25:11,156 Speaker 1: some politicians with national exposure and ignore others. The courts, 378 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:16,436 Speaker 1: the universities, the press. Conservatives believed that to defeat liberalism 379 00:25:16,556 --> 00:25:19,356 Speaker 1: they needed to conquer these institutions of knowledge to story 380 00:25:19,436 --> 00:25:23,116 Speaker 1: trust in them. The left has contributed a whole lot 381 00:25:23,156 --> 00:25:27,436 Speaker 1: to this epistemological unraveling, too, but conservatives have been playing 382 00:25:27,436 --> 00:25:30,956 Speaker 1: a long game. This, ever, took years and years, and 383 00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:35,236 Speaker 1: eventually they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. They took over 384 00:25:35,276 --> 00:25:38,596 Speaker 1: the courts, or at least the federal judiciary. I'm honored 385 00:25:38,676 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 1: and humbled to appear before you today as a nominee 386 00:25:42,116 --> 00:25:45,476 Speaker 1: for Associate Justice of the Supreme Court. They built their 387 00:25:45,516 --> 00:25:49,516 Speaker 1: own press. Your mask is making me uncomfortable, and they 388 00:25:49,596 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 1: undermined the university, especially scientific inquiry. So here we are, 389 00:25:55,276 --> 00:25:58,796 Speaker 1: decades later, on the other side of this slow rolling revolution, 390 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:01,356 Speaker 1: a world where there is very little left of what 391 00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:05,596 Speaker 1: used to be called common knowledge. This brings us to 392 00:26:05,676 --> 00:26:09,436 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty presidential election. Those mail and bat could 393 00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:12,716 Speaker 1: have been written the day before by the Democratic Party 394 00:26:12,716 --> 00:26:16,756 Speaker 1: hatch that will roll over the Convention Center. Sure are 395 00:26:16,836 --> 00:26:19,556 Speaker 1: lots of people in positions of power and authority said 396 00:26:19,596 --> 00:26:22,316 Speaker 1: the election of Joe Biden was free and fair, the 397 00:26:22,316 --> 00:26:25,996 Speaker 1: most secure election in American history. The Court said that 398 00:26:26,676 --> 00:26:32,556 Speaker 1: every reputable news outlet said that political scientists, election observers, scholars, 399 00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:37,036 Speaker 1: they all said that, But could you trust them. For 400 00:26:37,076 --> 00:26:41,156 Speaker 1: a lot of Americans, the answer remained no, not anymore 401 00:26:41,676 --> 00:27:03,996 Speaker 1: and maybe never again. Covered barely by the media, and 402 00:27:03,996 --> 00:27:12,676 Speaker 1: the media is the biggest problem we haven't haven't. The 403 00:27:12,796 --> 00:27:17,716 Speaker 1: sixth of January twenty twenty one, it was the Christian 404 00:27:17,756 --> 00:27:20,876 Speaker 1: holiday of Epiphany, marking the day the three Kings visited 405 00:27:20,956 --> 00:27:24,836 Speaker 1: Jesus in the Manger, and Epiphany is a moment when 406 00:27:24,876 --> 00:27:28,796 Speaker 1: all is revealed. In Washington, thousands of people gathered for 407 00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:33,236 Speaker 1: a rally to save America, cheering President Trump and damning 408 00:27:33,276 --> 00:27:37,356 Speaker 1: the press. Meanwhile, down the street, inside the Capitol, a 409 00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:40,316 Speaker 1: joint session of Congress was meeting to certify the results 410 00:27:40,316 --> 00:27:43,756 Speaker 1: of the presidential election, an election that would send Trump 411 00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:47,636 Speaker 1: packing in two weeks time. And after this, we're gonna 412 00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:49,756 Speaker 1: walk down and I'll be there with you. We're gonna 413 00:27:49,796 --> 00:27:56,036 Speaker 1: walk down to the Capitol and we're gonna cheer on. 414 00:27:56,276 --> 00:27:58,996 Speaker 1: They never seen us. We are We're off the Trump 415 00:28:00,196 --> 00:28:26,956 Speaker 1: four more years. They marched to the Capitol, waving Trump 416 00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:31,596 Speaker 1: flags and Confederate battle flags, wearing maga hats and superhero 417 00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:36,836 Speaker 1: costumes and camouflage and bulletproof vests. You probably saw all this. 418 00:28:37,636 --> 00:28:41,556 Speaker 1: The crowd started pulling down the barricades, flimsy fences, climbed 419 00:28:41,556 --> 00:28:45,916 Speaker 1: the stairs, scaled the scaffolding. They beat up Capitol police, 420 00:28:46,196 --> 00:28:57,316 Speaker 1: smashed windows, crashed through doors. They've broke into the Capitol. 421 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:01,236 Speaker 1: For people who study right wing extremism and have read 422 00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:04,836 Speaker 1: the neo Nazi novel The Turner Diaries, everything that happened 423 00:29:04,876 --> 00:29:08,556 Speaker 1: that day was eerily familiar because that book describes an 424 00:29:08,556 --> 00:29:12,556 Speaker 1: attack on the capital this way. The real value of 425 00:29:12,596 --> 00:29:15,916 Speaker 1: all our attacks today lies in the psychological impact, not 426 00:29:16,076 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 1: in the immediate casualties. More important, though, is what we 427 00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:23,396 Speaker 1: taught the politicians and the bureaucrats. They learned this afternoon 428 00:29:23,756 --> 00:29:34,876 Speaker 1: that not one of them is beyond our reach. The 429 00:29:34,916 --> 00:29:39,036 Speaker 1: decades long conservative attack on institutions of knowledge, the press, 430 00:29:39,156 --> 00:29:43,236 Speaker 1: the courts, universities, it had come down to this day 431 00:29:43,756 --> 00:29:46,756 Speaker 1: when these people did not believe in the outcome of 432 00:29:46,756 --> 00:29:50,356 Speaker 1: an election, or believed it and wanted to overturn it. 433 00:29:51,516 --> 00:29:54,436 Speaker 1: For weeks, Trump supporters had been trying and failing to 434 00:29:54,516 --> 00:29:57,516 Speaker 1: challenge the results and counties where lots of black people voted. 435 00:29:57,836 --> 00:30:01,156 Speaker 1: They were especially mad about Georgia, wherein runoff elections a 436 00:30:01,236 --> 00:30:03,996 Speaker 1: Jewish man and a black man had just won seats 437 00:30:04,036 --> 00:30:13,316 Speaker 1: in the US Senate. Drug about on the fucking hair, Yeah, well, 438 00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:21,196 Speaker 1: the fucking w It was a riot, a white race riot, 439 00:30:22,156 --> 00:30:25,596 Speaker 1: and yet horrible as it was. The insurrection on the 440 00:30:25,636 --> 00:30:29,556 Speaker 1: sixth of January, Epiphany looked like it might be another 441 00:30:29,636 --> 00:30:32,756 Speaker 1: kind of epiphany, a day when people could finally see clearly, 442 00:30:32,956 --> 00:30:36,636 Speaker 1: a revelation at last that all the lying wasn't harmless. 443 00:30:37,476 --> 00:30:41,436 Speaker 1: There seemed at first to be real consequences. The President 444 00:30:41,556 --> 00:30:44,836 Speaker 1: was banned from Twitter. Later, the House impeached him for 445 00:30:44,876 --> 00:30:49,516 Speaker 1: a second time. President Trump gravely endangered the security of 446 00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:53,796 Speaker 1: the United States and its institutions of government. He threatened 447 00:30:53,836 --> 00:30:58,116 Speaker 1: the integrity of the democratic system, interfered with the peaceful 448 00:30:58,156 --> 00:31:01,956 Speaker 1: transition of power, and imperiled coequal branch of government. He 449 00:31:02,076 --> 00:31:07,036 Speaker 1: thereby betrayed his trust as president to the manifest injury 450 00:31:07,396 --> 00:31:10,756 Speaker 1: of the people of the United The charges went to 451 00:31:10,796 --> 00:31:16,876 Speaker 1: the Senate for a trial. Last year, the first season 452 00:31:16,876 --> 00:31:19,476 Speaker 1: of The Last Archive, I started out with a trial, 453 00:31:20,556 --> 00:31:24,956 Speaker 1: remember Lucien a broadwell strangled in Barry, Vermont. I started 454 00:31:24,956 --> 00:31:27,116 Speaker 1: this show there because I wanted to explain a bit 455 00:31:27,116 --> 00:31:30,396 Speaker 1: of crucial history. Most of our ideas about how to 456 00:31:30,436 --> 00:31:33,636 Speaker 1: decide what's true and what's not true come from the 457 00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:37,236 Speaker 1: thirteenth century. But the rise of trial by jury. Two 458 00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:41,076 Speaker 1: sides take turns presenting evidence, and a jury decides the 459 00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:46,756 Speaker 1: verdict the truth har ye har ye har ye. Impeachment 460 00:31:46,836 --> 00:31:50,556 Speaker 1: two is a relic from the Middle Ages. All persons 461 00:31:50,556 --> 00:31:54,236 Speaker 1: are commanded to keep silence on pain of imprisonment. While 462 00:31:54,276 --> 00:31:56,836 Speaker 1: the Senate of the United States is sitting for the 463 00:31:56,916 --> 00:32:00,516 Speaker 1: trial of the article of impeachment exhibited by the House 464 00:32:00,516 --> 00:32:04,876 Speaker 1: of Representatives against Donald John Trump, former President by the 465 00:32:04,956 --> 00:32:10,076 Speaker 1: United States. England's parliament invented impeachment in the forteenth century. 466 00:32:10,516 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 1: In seventeen eighty seven, the framers of the American Constitution, 467 00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:18,476 Speaker 1: meeting in Philadelphia, decided to add an impeachment clause because 468 00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:21,716 Speaker 1: impeachment and conviction was the only way to stop a 469 00:32:21,796 --> 00:32:25,396 Speaker 1: president from declaring himself ruler for life like a king. 470 00:32:26,316 --> 00:32:29,916 Speaker 1: Jamie Raskin, congressman from Maryland, led the prosecution for the 471 00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:33,036 Speaker 1: House in a trial where members of the Senate sat 472 00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:36,996 Speaker 1: acting like a jury. You will not be hearing extended 473 00:32:37,076 --> 00:32:42,436 Speaker 1: lecturers for me, because our case is based on cold, 474 00:32:43,236 --> 00:32:48,876 Speaker 1: hard facts. Trump's lawyers argued that Trump hadn't incited an 475 00:32:48,876 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 1: insurrection at all, and if we buy this radical argument 476 00:32:52,796 --> 00:32:58,716 Speaker 1: that President Trump's lawyers advance, we risk allowing January sixth 477 00:32:59,676 --> 00:33:06,076 Speaker 1: to become our future. And what will that mean for America. 478 00:33:06,436 --> 00:33:14,116 Speaker 1: I'll show you. Raskin played that video. Trump's lawyers played 479 00:33:14,156 --> 00:33:16,836 Speaker 1: some of their own video, But nearly everyone in the 480 00:33:16,876 --> 00:33:19,956 Speaker 1: Senate had already decided how they'd vote, and there was 481 00:33:20,036 --> 00:33:25,756 Speaker 1: little suspense. The yay's are fifty seven, the nays are 482 00:33:25,876 --> 00:33:30,236 Speaker 1: forty three, two thirds of the senators. President not having 483 00:33:30,316 --> 00:33:35,196 Speaker 1: poured guilty. The Senator judges that the responded Donald John Trump, 484 00:33:35,276 --> 00:33:39,436 Speaker 1: former President of United States, is not guilty as charged 485 00:33:39,476 --> 00:33:42,436 Speaker 1: the article of impeachment. The vote fell short of the 486 00:33:42,476 --> 00:33:46,156 Speaker 1: supermajority required to convict, even though there is no more 487 00:33:46,236 --> 00:33:50,076 Speaker 1: clear cut case for impeachment, no more indisputable evidence than 488 00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:53,196 Speaker 1: an armed insurrection, and cited by the executive branch to 489 00:33:53,236 --> 00:33:58,196 Speaker 1: stop the legislative branch from certifying an election. In the 490 00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:01,836 Speaker 1: aftermath of the insurrection and the impeachment, a buzz phrase emerged, 491 00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:06,236 Speaker 1: the big lie. Republicans kept insisting that the election had 492 00:34:06,236 --> 00:34:09,956 Speaker 1: been stolen. Democrats took to calling this the big lie, 493 00:34:10,436 --> 00:34:12,916 Speaker 1: but Republicans said the big lie was the idea that 494 00:34:12,996 --> 00:34:16,196 Speaker 1: Joe Biden was the lawful president. A lot of progressives 495 00:34:16,196 --> 00:34:18,876 Speaker 1: talked about another kind of big lie, the lie that 496 00:34:18,956 --> 00:34:23,356 Speaker 1: white people matter more than black people. That move hearkened 497 00:34:23,396 --> 00:34:26,636 Speaker 1: back to something James Baldwin had said in the nineteen sixties, 498 00:34:27,836 --> 00:34:30,676 Speaker 1: the character of my color is what you use to 499 00:34:30,756 --> 00:34:36,356 Speaker 1: avoid facing the facts of our common history, the facts 500 00:34:36,356 --> 00:34:40,876 Speaker 1: of American life. In twenty twenty, Princeton historian Eddie Gloud Jr. 501 00:34:41,036 --> 00:34:47,596 Speaker 1: Updated Baldwin's argument America is so willfully ignorant, right, And 502 00:34:47,596 --> 00:34:50,316 Speaker 1: it's willfully ignorant because it wants to protect its innocence. 503 00:34:51,036 --> 00:34:57,996 Speaker 1: As Baldwin says, it doesn't want to admit that it 504 00:34:58,076 --> 00:35:00,316 Speaker 1: is not the shining city on the hilling. The trouble 505 00:35:00,396 --> 00:35:02,836 Speaker 1: is deeper than we wish to think. Because the trouble 506 00:35:02,916 --> 00:35:08,916 Speaker 1: isn't us. The trouble isn't us, and the lies we tell. 507 00:35:09,676 --> 00:35:12,396 Speaker 1: He just can't pull these two lies apart. The lie 508 00:35:12,436 --> 00:35:16,236 Speaker 1: about the election is the lie about white supremacy. People 509 00:35:16,236 --> 00:35:19,516 Speaker 1: who say the election was stolen are generally arguing that 510 00:35:19,556 --> 00:35:22,916 Speaker 1: black voters stole the election, So really there's just the 511 00:35:22,996 --> 00:35:26,756 Speaker 1: one lie. But then I guess, predictably, the very expression 512 00:35:26,996 --> 00:35:30,756 Speaker 1: the big lie became meaningless, the way that earlier fake 513 00:35:30,876 --> 00:35:34,556 Speaker 1: news became meaningless, just another way to disagree with someone. 514 00:35:35,276 --> 00:35:38,316 Speaker 1: When Georgia passed a law that challenged requirements for voting, 515 00:35:38,636 --> 00:35:42,116 Speaker 1: and liberals called it a voter suppression law, conservatives said 516 00:35:42,236 --> 00:35:45,076 Speaker 1: that was a big lie. Here's how crazy this is. 517 00:35:45,556 --> 00:35:48,356 Speaker 1: Some people said that some other people lied that they 518 00:35:48,356 --> 00:35:51,876 Speaker 1: committed voter fraud. Then some other people said this was 519 00:35:51,916 --> 00:35:54,996 Speaker 1: a lie, there was no fraud, And then the first 520 00:35:54,996 --> 00:35:58,076 Speaker 1: group of people said those people were lying about the lying, 521 00:35:58,316 --> 00:36:00,796 Speaker 1: and they all said all these lies with a big lie. 522 00:36:02,716 --> 00:36:05,716 Speaker 1: Here in this submergency bunker and iron mountain, I feel 523 00:36:05,796 --> 00:36:08,436 Speaker 1: buried beneath the weight of it all. I think a 524 00:36:08,436 --> 00:36:11,556 Speaker 1: lot of people feel that way. End of January, I 525 00:36:11,636 --> 00:36:16,036 Speaker 1: watched the newly and actually elected Joe Biden deliver his 526 00:36:16,036 --> 00:36:21,036 Speaker 1: inaugural address. He'd started drafting his remarks in late twenty twenty, 527 00:36:21,116 --> 00:36:24,556 Speaker 1: but reportedly it's quite common for Biden to revise his speeches. 528 00:36:24,796 --> 00:36:28,636 Speaker 1: Up until the last moment after the insurrection, he'd had 529 00:36:28,676 --> 00:36:33,156 Speaker 1: some more revising to do. There is truth and there 530 00:36:33,156 --> 00:36:39,276 Speaker 1: are lies, lies told for power and for profit, and 531 00:36:39,436 --> 00:36:43,316 Speaker 1: egy of us has a duty and responsibility as citizens, 532 00:36:43,356 --> 00:36:47,516 Speaker 1: as Americans, and especially as leaders, leaders who have pledged 533 00:36:47,556 --> 00:36:52,036 Speaker 1: to honor our constitution and protect our nation, to defend 534 00:36:52,036 --> 00:36:56,996 Speaker 1: the truth and defeat the lies, defeat the lies. I 535 00:36:57,116 --> 00:36:59,236 Speaker 1: like that very much when I heard it, so did 536 00:36:59,276 --> 00:37:03,796 Speaker 1: Stephen Shapen, the historian of science and then had really 537 00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:08,196 Speaker 1: worried both of us. Yes, it was beautiful. I entirely agree, 538 00:37:08,236 --> 00:37:10,556 Speaker 1: because I know what he meant. But it's as much 539 00:37:10,596 --> 00:37:14,996 Speaker 1: as pounding the table or shouting as a way of 540 00:37:15,036 --> 00:37:17,556 Speaker 1: addressing the nature of the problem. There is truth and 541 00:37:17,596 --> 00:37:22,316 Speaker 1: there is lies. Yeah, who could disagree with that. Pounding 542 00:37:22,316 --> 00:37:25,596 Speaker 1: on the table is not enough. Saying I tell the truth, 543 00:37:25,756 --> 00:37:30,836 Speaker 1: you tell lies is not enough, and it doesn't work. 544 00:37:33,516 --> 00:37:36,116 Speaker 1: This season of the Last Archive has been a long 545 00:37:36,516 --> 00:37:40,396 Speaker 1: hundred years, from the Scopes Trial to Ripley's Believe It 546 00:37:40,476 --> 00:37:43,556 Speaker 1: or Not, from the War of the World to Access 547 00:37:43,596 --> 00:37:47,716 Speaker 1: Sally in Tokyo, Rose Maury Bernstein, the mid centuries, Bengali, 548 00:37:48,076 --> 00:37:52,396 Speaker 1: the Moon Hoax, Soviet propaganda, and rest in Peace Rush Limbaugh. 549 00:37:54,076 --> 00:37:56,796 Speaker 1: A problem of historical thinking is that when you look back, 550 00:37:57,436 --> 00:38:01,276 Speaker 1: everything seems to lead to now, But of course now 551 00:38:01,356 --> 00:38:05,916 Speaker 1: keeps changing, but the past remains the same. I've been 552 00:38:05,956 --> 00:38:08,756 Speaker 1: looking for a history of mischief, the peddling of doubt, 553 00:38:09,236 --> 00:38:14,396 Speaker 1: people who profited politically, financially for making other people confused. 554 00:38:15,156 --> 00:38:18,036 Speaker 1: What I've argued is that there really is a genealogy here. 555 00:38:18,636 --> 00:38:22,676 Speaker 1: These people learn from one another's tricks, so it's been 556 00:38:22,676 --> 00:38:26,156 Speaker 1: worth laying them all out. Here's how this trick works. 557 00:38:26,516 --> 00:38:30,676 Speaker 1: Don't be fooled again. Report from Iron Mountain. It's one 558 00:38:30,716 --> 00:38:34,476 Speaker 1: of the sorriest of these tricks. The permanent possibility war 559 00:38:34,836 --> 00:38:38,516 Speaker 1: is the foundation for stable government. It supplies the basis 560 00:38:38,556 --> 00:38:43,836 Speaker 1: for general acceptance of political authority. It was created as 561 00:38:43,836 --> 00:38:46,476 Speaker 1: a prank, a joke. I like what a mess it 562 00:38:46,596 --> 00:38:49,676 Speaker 1: helped make. I don't want to leave it just hanging 563 00:38:49,716 --> 00:38:53,556 Speaker 1: in the air. There a hoax, So I have one 564 00:38:53,596 --> 00:39:01,116 Speaker 1: more story to tell. Remember him announced the mushroom King 565 00:39:01,316 --> 00:39:05,276 Speaker 1: with his mushroom shaped swimming pool. When I was thinking 566 00:39:05,316 --> 00:39:08,436 Speaker 1: about Iron Mountain and came across his name, it sounded 567 00:39:08,516 --> 00:39:12,996 Speaker 1: so for Millar to me, herman nous Hermannus. After a 568 00:39:13,036 --> 00:39:18,076 Speaker 1: while I remembered I'd once met his granddaughter. Here's how 569 00:39:18,116 --> 00:39:20,876 Speaker 1: that happened. A bunch of years ago, I got obsessed 570 00:39:20,876 --> 00:39:24,036 Speaker 1: with a guy named Joe Gould, who, starting more than 571 00:39:24,076 --> 00:39:27,596 Speaker 1: a century ago, claimed to be writing the longest book 572 00:39:27,676 --> 00:39:29,676 Speaker 1: in the history of the world. He would do this 573 00:39:29,716 --> 00:39:33,116 Speaker 1: by making his own last archive, writing down every word 574 00:39:33,156 --> 00:39:35,996 Speaker 1: that anyone ever said to him. His book was supposed 575 00:39:35,996 --> 00:39:39,756 Speaker 1: to be called the Oral History of our time. Apart 576 00:39:39,796 --> 00:39:42,396 Speaker 1: from literary merit, it will have future value as a 577 00:39:42,436 --> 00:39:47,516 Speaker 1: storehouse of information, he would say. Later, people said this 578 00:39:47,556 --> 00:39:50,276 Speaker 1: book never existed, that Gould had just talked about it, 579 00:39:50,276 --> 00:39:53,076 Speaker 1: had never written a word of it. Gould, it turned out, 580 00:39:53,276 --> 00:39:56,996 Speaker 1: was insane. He was in fact a psychopath. But long 581 00:39:57,036 --> 00:39:59,756 Speaker 1: after Gould's death, when I heard about the oral History 582 00:39:59,756 --> 00:40:03,476 Speaker 1: of our Time, I went looking for the manuscript. I 583 00:40:03,596 --> 00:40:08,476 Speaker 1: went digging, tunneling through archives, and weirdly, believe it or not, 584 00:40:08,636 --> 00:40:10,356 Speaker 1: I found, or at least I found a part of 585 00:40:10,396 --> 00:40:13,436 Speaker 1: it in a notebook deep in the archives of the 586 00:40:13,476 --> 00:40:18,516 Speaker 1: New York Public Library. Gould had destroyed most of the manuscript, 587 00:40:18,836 --> 00:40:21,516 Speaker 1: but it had mainly been about one person, a black 588 00:40:21,636 --> 00:40:25,596 Speaker 1: artist named Augusta Savage. And she's the real story, the 589 00:40:25,676 --> 00:40:31,596 Speaker 1: true report from Iron Mountain. Augusta Savage had been a 590 00:40:31,676 --> 00:40:34,116 Speaker 1: leader of the Harlem Renaissance in the nineteen twenties and 591 00:40:34,196 --> 00:40:37,876 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. She'd started her own studio. She'd been commissioned 592 00:40:37,876 --> 00:40:40,156 Speaker 1: to create a work about black Americans for the nineteen 593 00:40:40,196 --> 00:40:43,356 Speaker 1: thirty nine World's Fair. She'd been featured in Life magazine. 594 00:40:44,076 --> 00:40:46,836 Speaker 1: But then she met Joe Gould. He began to stalk 595 00:40:46,836 --> 00:40:50,356 Speaker 1: her everywhere she went. There's some evidence that he raped her. 596 00:40:50,916 --> 00:40:54,036 Speaker 1: In the nineteen forties, she disappeared, she went into hiding. 597 00:40:54,516 --> 00:40:57,036 Speaker 1: I found that she'd moved to upstate New York, where 598 00:40:57,076 --> 00:40:59,676 Speaker 1: she'd lived at first in a tiny Rundown house without 599 00:40:59,716 --> 00:41:03,276 Speaker 1: plumbing or electricity. She turned a chicken coop into a studio. 600 00:41:04,196 --> 00:41:07,796 Speaker 1: Then she got a job at Iron Mounted Storage company. 601 00:41:08,876 --> 00:41:11,396 Speaker 1: Agustus Savage is dead now and her house is being 602 00:41:11,396 --> 00:41:17,316 Speaker 1: turned into a museum run by herman Neust's granddaughter. Augustus 603 00:41:17,316 --> 00:41:21,156 Speaker 1: Savage worked at Iron Mountain, but also every week Herman 604 00:41:21,236 --> 00:41:24,356 Speaker 1: Neust's son brought her clay, He bought her a car, 605 00:41:24,676 --> 00:41:27,036 Speaker 1: He had a kitchen installed in her house. Had electricity 606 00:41:27,076 --> 00:41:29,756 Speaker 1: run out there. She'd come to the family's estate, the 607 00:41:29,756 --> 00:41:32,916 Speaker 1: one with a mushrooms shaped swimming pool, to recite poetry, 608 00:41:34,276 --> 00:41:37,676 Speaker 1: but meanwhile she'd destroyed much of her own art. She 609 00:41:37,756 --> 00:41:39,716 Speaker 1: went in the city mainly just to collect her old 610 00:41:39,716 --> 00:41:42,316 Speaker 1: work and destroy it. She apparently sent a man to 611 00:41:42,356 --> 00:41:45,076 Speaker 1: retrieve a bust that she'd made of w beat the boys, 612 00:41:45,436 --> 00:41:51,316 Speaker 1: and then reportedly smashed it. The story of Augustus Savage. 613 00:41:52,156 --> 00:41:57,716 Speaker 1: That's my report from Iron Mountain. I wrote a book 614 00:41:57,716 --> 00:42:01,556 Speaker 1: about all that. It's called Joe Gould's Teeth. A lot 615 00:42:01,596 --> 00:42:05,076 Speaker 1: of the Last Archive is like Joe Gould's teeth. A 616 00:42:05,156 --> 00:42:09,236 Speaker 1: lot of history is like Joe Gould's Teeth. Tragic and 617 00:42:09,316 --> 00:42:13,636 Speaker 1: maddening stories about loss and destruction, not leading to some 618 00:42:13,756 --> 00:42:18,636 Speaker 1: glorious or terrible present, just sad. When I went out 619 00:42:18,676 --> 00:42:21,996 Speaker 1: to that chicken coop that had become Augustus Savage's studio, 620 00:42:22,636 --> 00:42:25,556 Speaker 1: the ground was still covered with smashed bits of her sculpture. 621 00:42:26,436 --> 00:42:32,836 Speaker 1: Her voice, like her art, is lost. But I am 622 00:42:32,876 --> 00:42:36,756 Speaker 1: tired of hidden and smashed history. I'm tired of bunkers, 623 00:42:37,116 --> 00:42:43,916 Speaker 1: tunnels and vaults, underground layers and ridiculous conspiracy. It's time 624 00:42:43,956 --> 00:42:49,196 Speaker 1: to dig out, time to climb up, time to get out, 625 00:42:51,036 --> 00:42:54,596 Speaker 1: time to figure it out. You can study history for 626 00:42:54,636 --> 00:42:58,316 Speaker 1: its own sake, Curl around in attics to seek the truth, 627 00:42:59,196 --> 00:43:02,916 Speaker 1: rifle through the pages of old books, bury yourself in 628 00:43:03,036 --> 00:43:06,436 Speaker 1: every last archive. But you can also study history to 629 00:43:06,516 --> 00:43:09,356 Speaker 1: learn how to solve problems. Pry open the door of 630 00:43:09,356 --> 00:43:12,556 Speaker 1: the vault and creep out. Bring the knowledge of the 631 00:43:12,556 --> 00:43:15,996 Speaker 1: place where the known things go, and carry it outside. 632 00:43:16,796 --> 00:43:20,876 Speaker 1: Escape the corridor of the mind for the messy, angry, 633 00:43:21,036 --> 00:43:41,876 Speaker 1: half wrecked, beautiful world. The Last Archive is written and 634 00:43:41,916 --> 00:43:45,276 Speaker 1: hosted by me Jill Lapour. It's produced by Sophie Crane, 635 00:43:45,316 --> 00:43:48,476 Speaker 1: mckibbon and Ben Natt of Hafrey. Our editor is Julia 636 00:43:48,516 --> 00:43:52,596 Speaker 1: Barton and our executive producer is Mia Lobel Martin Gonzalez 637 00:43:52,716 --> 00:43:56,756 Speaker 1: is our engineer. Fact checking by Amy Gaines, original music 638 00:43:56,756 --> 00:44:00,876 Speaker 1: by Matthias Boss and John Evans of Stellwagen Sympinett. Our 639 00:44:00,916 --> 00:44:04,876 Speaker 1: research assistants are Kamani Panthier and Lily Richmond. Our full 640 00:44:04,956 --> 00:44:09,316 Speaker 1: proof players are Yoshia Mao, Raymond Blankenhorne, Mathias Bossi, Dante, 641 00:44:09,396 --> 00:44:13,396 Speaker 1: Ethan Hushenfeld, Becca A Lewis, Andrew Parella, Robert Riccotta, and 642 00:44:13,556 --> 00:44:17,156 Speaker 1: Nick Saxton. The Last Archive is a production of Pushkin Industries. 643 00:44:17,396 --> 00:44:20,996 Speaker 1: Head Pushkin Thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Heather Fain, John Schnarz, 644 00:44:21,116 --> 00:44:25,636 Speaker 1: Carl Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostak, Maggie Taylor, 645 00:44:25,916 --> 00:44:30,636 Speaker 1: Maya Kanig and Daniella Lacan Special thanks to Carl Annusteliah 646 00:44:30,716 --> 00:44:33,516 Speaker 1: and Simon Leek, and thanks to Shola Lynch at the 647 00:44:33,556 --> 00:44:37,076 Speaker 1: Schoenberg Center. If you like the show, please remember to rate, 648 00:44:37,116 --> 00:44:40,316 Speaker 1: share and review. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on 649 00:44:40,356 --> 00:44:44,436 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 650 00:44:44,836 --> 00:45:09,276 Speaker 1: I'm jillapoor Th