Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Civic Scipher. Iamy host Rams's Jack.
Speaker 2: And I am the other host. Uh, Quentin, that's what.
Speaker 1: We're gonna go with this week, Just Quentin Quentin growing
Speaker 1: up with your government.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got a lot of I got a lot
Speaker 3: on my mind right now, bro, So I couldn't get
Speaker 3: my I can't even I can't even get my normal
Speaker 3: intro off everything.
Speaker 4: You're not cool, that's all right. Well, listen about.
Speaker 2: As upset as I've been in a very long time,
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to keep a at least some sort
Speaker 2: of smile on my face, so I don't fully allow
Speaker 2: myself to kind of slip into just feeling negative today.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that, but you do understand that, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes when you're dealing with it, my job is to
Speaker 1: be a little stronger because I know you're always stronger
Speaker 1: when I'm going.
Speaker 4: Through it too.
Speaker 1: So this is the space for it, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: have our therapy today. We got a lot of important
Speaker 1: things to talk about. Some are encouraging and some are
Speaker 1: naturally a bit disheartening, but you know, all of it
Speaker 1: together is the reality that we have to deal with.
Speaker 1: So if you're tuning in, be sure to stick around.
Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about a civil suit that
Speaker 1: is moving forward against a police officer who shot and
Speaker 1: killed Oh shot. I believe the dog survived a dog,
Speaker 1: and obviously there's some natural comparisons we have to make there.
Speaker 1: And then a little later in the show, we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about the eroding support for the BLM movement.
Speaker 1: I don't want to alarm anyone because it's not eroded,
Speaker 1: but it certainly has waned a bit, and that's the
Speaker 1: reality of the situation. We have to deal with it,
Speaker 1: and we will, and plenty of other things to stick
Speaker 1: around for as well. But first, like we always do
Speaker 1: at this time, we are going to talk about some
Speaker 1: Ebony excellence. So this week I'm really proud of this
Speaker 1: young lady got a story from a woman named Aaron Jackson.
Speaker 1: She took first place in the women's five hundred in
Speaker 1: Toamasao Mazowiecki, Poland, the first stop of the speed skating
Speaker 1: World Cup season. In the process, she became the first
Speaker 1: black woman to win a World Cup. She beat out
Speaker 1: Japan's defending twenty eighteen Olympic champion now Kodiara by zero
Speaker 1: point one three seconds. The competing field also included all
Speaker 1: three of the medalists who competed at the World Championships
Speaker 1: in February twenty twenty one, and event Jackson did not
Speaker 1: compete in. According to the Associated Press, prior to her
Speaker 1: win on Friday last Friday, her previous best World Cup
Speaker 1: finish was in the ninth place.
Speaker 4: She told the.
Speaker 1: Dutch broadcaster INOS that her win was a big surprise,
Speaker 1: adding I was hoping to be in podium position and
Speaker 1: she is also dreaming of Olympic gold. But pronounce anyone's game,
Speaker 1: and she has been celebrated online by lots of folks,
Speaker 1: and of course there's lots to celebrate there. Anytime someone
Speaker 1: you know takes center stage in a sport that's not
Speaker 1: known to be associated with, you know, their race, or
Speaker 1: their culture or whatever like that, it certainly news worthy.
Speaker 4: But around here.
Speaker 1: We also understand there's a lot of behind the scenes
Speaker 1: stuff that folks tend to endure. Think black person in
Speaker 1: an event based in snow, and so for us it's
Speaker 1: a little bit more special to acknowledge that ebony excellence
Speaker 1: because we know that oftentimes it's not as easy as
Speaker 1: I just made it. Of the podium sometimes there's a
Speaker 1: lot of nights where you have to really deal with
Speaker 1: your identity and a lot of backlash for being simply
Speaker 1: who you are. So once again, shout out to Aaron
Speaker 1: Jackson this week's of any Excellence. Now, I have on
Speaker 1: this show made comparisons to.
Speaker 4: Dogs before.
Speaker 1: I have made comparison comparisons to white, blonde haired young
Speaker 1: women before.
Speaker 4: In terms of.
Speaker 1: If justice is really blind, this person should be treated
Speaker 1: the same way as a blonde haired, white, you know,
Speaker 1: attractive woman. You know, justice should be blind and not
Speaker 1: distinguished between persons, and we've found that that is not
Speaker 1: often the case according to our view of the world.
Speaker 1: A mode arbery, you know, had he been a white woman,
Speaker 1: you know, he might not have been chased in a
Speaker 1: truck and gunned down by people trying to take the
Speaker 1: law into their own hands. And you know, you can
Speaker 1: take that comparison and apply it to pretty much every story.
Speaker 1: And you see that black people are treated differently by
Speaker 1: either those with authority or those who feel like they
Speaker 1: have some authority over black bodies and how black bodies
Speaker 1: should move in time and space. But the one about dogs,
Speaker 1: that comparison doesn't come up until we're talking about a
Speaker 1: different like like violence specifically, not necessarily the treatment or
Speaker 1: the interactions or you know, the assumed guilt or whatever,
Speaker 1: but the actual treatment of the physical being right, and
Speaker 1: the idea there is to suggest that with respect to
Speaker 1: public outcry, and certainly prior to twenty twenty, because this
Speaker 1: isn't something, this isn't a new comparison for me. I've
Speaker 1: been on this hill. This is the one I'll die on.
Speaker 1: You know, I noticed a long time ago that if
Speaker 1: people mistreat cats, dogs, you know, whatever, you know, there's
Speaker 1: oftentimes a public outcry, certainly if it's on video. Because
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you why, because I'm not a white person,
Speaker 1: but I would imagine that oftentimes my white brothers and sisters,
Speaker 1: who perhaps don't interact with black folks as often as
Speaker 1: people who live in cities, do you know, they maybe
Speaker 1: have a relationship with dogs a little bit more differently
Speaker 1: or I don't know, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1: But the thing that always surprised me is that in
Speaker 1: these videos, in these videos where we're seeing people get
Speaker 1: stomped out by the police or beaten or shot or
Speaker 1: whatever the case is, especially when they pose no real threat,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's ready fire aim. We did a
Speaker 1: couple episodes ago about that ready fire aim mentality found
Speaker 1: in a lot of police interactions that those white folks
Speaker 1: the Middle America, white folks who perhaps don't interact with
Speaker 1: a lot of black people. They the surprising part is
Speaker 1: that they maybe it just doesn't feel like they relate
Speaker 1: to the videos. They see the human part of the videos,
Speaker 1: and they relate more to a video of someone abusing
Speaker 1: a dog. And that's why you get that outcry and
Speaker 1: that that outrage, and so make that comparison often. I
Speaker 1: believe it often challenges my white brothers and sisters who
Speaker 1: you know, have difficulty connecting, you know, right and wrong,
Speaker 1: to the right and wrong things, or that want a victim, blame.
Speaker 4: Or whatever the case is, whatever they're.
Speaker 1: Dealing with, in that moment, it stops them and has
Speaker 1: them challenge their own prejudices. Would this be okay if
Speaker 1: the officer did this to a dog?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: Or no?
Speaker 4: Those are your only two options? Is the answer?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Then why is it okay for an officer to do
Speaker 1: this to a human being? Is it because this human
Speaker 1: being is black? Let's ask the question differently. If this
Speaker 1: was a white woman, who was pretty and was nineteen
Speaker 1: years old. Would this be okay for the officer to
Speaker 1: do this to that woman?
Speaker 4: Is the answer? Still?
Speaker 1: Now, now you're what you're doing is coming to terms
Speaker 1: with your actual prejudices, right, And so this is why
Speaker 1: these questions have always been very important, and whenever I've
Speaker 1: been on the radio and having to ask questions that
Speaker 1: really compel those folks on the fringes to really consider
Speaker 1: their biases and really come to terms with their prejudices
Speaker 1: and their racism. And you know, people have had a
Speaker 1: tough time with that one over the years because no
Speaker 1: one wants to be called racist, and I think a
Speaker 1: lot of folks in their heart of hearts don't really
Speaker 1: feel that way.
Speaker 4: But where is the outcry? Where is the reaction? You know?
Speaker 1: You know, I had a conversation with a close friend
Speaker 1: once upon a time who it was about the Amad
Speaker 1: Aubrey case where you know, he walked into a house.
Speaker 1: This is the way the story goes, according to my memory.
Speaker 1: These aren't in my notes right now, so forgive me
Speaker 1: if it's not entirely accurate. But amd Aubrey walks into
Speaker 1: a house that's being constructed, takes a look around, walks out,
Speaker 1: goes on his merried way and gets followed by some
Speaker 1: folks in the truck. You know, a little bit of
Speaker 1: a struggle ensues. They put a shotgun out, shooting me
Speaker 1: guys in the street. And had that been you know,
Speaker 1: the the nineteen year older, twenty six year old, pretty
Speaker 1: blond haired, white female snooping through the house just to
Speaker 1: check out what's going on. Does she end up in
Speaker 1: that same situation? Right, So, the conversation I was having
Speaker 1: with my friend, he said, well, that guy shouldn't have
Speaker 1: been in that house. It wasn't his property. Obviously, if
Speaker 1: you're in there, you're up to no good. And you know,
Speaker 1: he had all these like this victim blaming mentality. Again,
Speaker 1: a good friend of mine, and he if you're in
Speaker 1: case you're wondering, he is a white male, a little
Speaker 1: bit older than me, but he's married to a black
Speaker 1: woman and as a result, has black children, lives a
Speaker 1: very multicultural life. He's surrounded by different types of people
Speaker 1: all the time. I believe him to be a very
Speaker 1: loving man, a very dear friend of mine, and I
Speaker 1: had to reframe the problem for him in the same way.
Speaker 1: And then I told him something that I still believed
Speaker 1: to be true because he knows me, he loves me.
Speaker 1: I said, once upon a time I built the house
Speaker 1: in a city. Have built the house from scratch, and
Speaker 1: I was interested in the construction. You know, I paid
Speaker 1: for the house and the builders were building it. Let
Speaker 1: me be clear, But I would go and visit my
Speaker 1: plot of land and check it out. It was the
Speaker 1: coolest thing to me. I wanted to know what was
Speaker 1: inside of the walls. So oftentimes I'd be out in
Speaker 1: a field for everyone to see, looking at the cement
Speaker 1: that was poured that would go underneath the tile that
Speaker 1: I ordered, you know, And it just fascinated me to
Speaker 1: observe this process. And if I had lost my life
Speaker 1: in much the same way that a Mod Aubrey lost
Speaker 1: his life, would you be upset about that? And the
Speaker 1: thing is, we can't Ahmad Aubrey's dead. He can't tell
Speaker 1: his version of the story. Why were you in the house?
Speaker 1: Were you checking it out?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Obviously we saw that he wasn't stealing anything. Furthermore, what
Speaker 1: do you steal from a house?
Speaker 4: What harm do you?
Speaker 1: Cause he was on a jog, he stopped it, and
Speaker 1: that's the gate somebody thought was cool went on about
Speaker 1: his business.
Speaker 4: This is the way the story came back. You know.
Speaker 1: The trial still going on as of this recording, so
Speaker 1: we'll see what happens. But in any event, making these
Speaker 1: comparisons I think is very important today's story. What it
Speaker 1: does is it shows why these comparisons are necessary. So
Speaker 1: allow me to read. My sources come from the Nation,
Speaker 1: dot Com and the.
Speaker 4: New York Post.
Speaker 1: By the way, US Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit,
Speaker 1: which by the way covers Minnesota, Missouri, and others, issued
Speaker 1: a ruling that pierced the veil of qualified immunity and
Speaker 1: allowed a lawsuit to go forward against a police officer
Speaker 1: that shot two dogs. The facts of the case are
Speaker 1: not in dispute. In twenty seventeen, Minneapolis police responded to
Speaker 1: a house along those acts incidentally set off at the
Speaker 1: home of Jennifer LeMay. One of her kids had tripped
Speaker 1: the alarm by mistake, and when the home security company
Speaker 1: called Lamay told him the council of the alert, the
Speaker 1: cops were already on the way. One officer went to
Speaker 1: the front of the house and was met by one
Speaker 1: of Lamay's kids, who told the officer there was no problem,
Speaker 1: but a different cop, Officer Michael Mays, went around the
Speaker 1: back of the house, scaled a privacy fence, and ended
Speaker 1: up in the backyard. There, the cop was greeted by
Speaker 1: LeMay's service dogs, Saraq and Rocco. Now that with a
Speaker 1: dog named Sarah, I feel like I have to tell
Speaker 1: you that LeMay was a white woman. She just named
Speaker 1: her dog Sarak. But but uh, she might have a
Speaker 1: little bit of culture, because that's that's awesome to me.
Speaker 4: That's so funny. Anyway, Uh, the officer and a lot of.
Speaker 2: Bit of she got a lot of bit of culture.
Speaker 1: She named her dogs, right, So anyway, you did that
Speaker 1: for the temple one time. But uh so both of
Speaker 1: the were five year old American Staffordshire Terriers. I'm not
Speaker 1: a dog person. I don't know what that means. Mays says.
Speaker 1: Sarrac quote charged him, but his body camera footage shows
Speaker 1: the dog walking toward him, wagging his tail. Mays backs up,
Speaker 1: Sarraq keeps approaching, and Mays shoots the dog in the face.
Speaker 1: There is a video. I don't recommend you watch it.
Speaker 1: Sarak runs away, but at that point Rocco moves toward
Speaker 1: Mays again. In a friendly tail wagging manner. Mays then
Speaker 1: shoots Rocco multiple times. Both dog lives. Both dogs lived
Speaker 1: and are still going to go to heaven, but at
Speaker 1: a much later date, hopefully. The Eighth Circuit Court ruled
Speaker 1: that Mays was not entitled to qualified immunity because he
Speaker 1: did not face imminent danger. Now that's a big deal,
Speaker 1: because qualified immunity I read online. I don't know how
Speaker 1: true it is. I only try to pull from reputable sources,
Speaker 1: and if I don't, then I will say that. But
Speaker 1: I read online. There's like a police union dot com
Speaker 1: website or something like that that the police union was
Speaker 1: really trying to ensure that this officer could continue to
Speaker 1: hide behind qualified immunity and trying to reframe the narrative
Speaker 1: that the dog was growling or something like that to
Speaker 1: justify the officer's fear and shooting the dog. They were
Speaker 1: really trying to protect this officer. But the court argued
Speaker 1: that Mays violated a clear constitutional rule, finding that it
Speaker 1: is clearly established that an officer cannot shoot a dog
Speaker 1: in the absence of an objectively legitimate threat. This language
Speaker 1: is important.
Speaker 4: The court is.
Speaker 1: Saying that a general fear of dogs or specifically pit bulls,
Speaker 1: is not enough to justify deadly force. The threat to
Speaker 1: the officer has to be an objective one. Now, these
Speaker 1: are some sort of terriers. I don't know if they
Speaker 1: look like pitbulls or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the stafford Shire Terrier looks almost exactly like a pitbull.
Speaker 4: Where is bond? Okay?
Speaker 1: So this case is important because well, first, let's let's
Speaker 1: peel back a couple of layers of qualified immunity.
Speaker 2: Okay, you just just heads up to you and our audience.
Speaker 2: You just almost lost your co host.
Speaker 4: M hm.
Speaker 2: You just as you just explained the reason why qualified
Speaker 2: immunity did not hold up in this case. I just
Speaker 2: almost unplugged, closed my computer and just left. Those reasons
Speaker 2: have been true in so many videos involving black people.
Speaker 1: I know, and and and I feel like I have
Speaker 1: to say this. I am one of those people where
Speaker 1: if a fly comes into my house, then the fly
Speaker 1: is in my house. If I can catch them and
Speaker 1: release them, I'll do it. I don't do roaches, and
Speaker 1: I don't do mosquitos, but everything else. If you're on
Speaker 1: your journey and it's not you know, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to take your life. You know, Mosquitos is
Speaker 1: a little different, and roaches have provided that they're in
Speaker 1: my house, that's different too. But I value life full stop,
Speaker 1: so I'm not necessarily trying to compare the life of
Speaker 1: a dog to a human being. I think that there
Speaker 1: is a comparison that should go without saying there, but
Speaker 1: only because in theory our capacity to empathize with other
Speaker 1: human beings. We're human beings. We should be able to
Speaker 1: empathize with other human beings. That should be prominent, It
Speaker 1: should be assumed, it should be consistent. You know, if
Speaker 1: you found a baby bundled up somewhere, you're not just
Speaker 1: going to say wow, neet baby and keep walking. Right.
Speaker 1: There's something in us that says, oh my gosh, this
Speaker 1: baby is alone. I now have to stay with this
Speaker 1: baby until we figure out where this baby goes. Right,
Speaker 1: There's some part of us that says we have to
Speaker 1: respond to the humanness. There's a human component that compels
Speaker 1: us to empathize and to defend and take action and
Speaker 1: preserve life.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: I don't imagine anybody listening or not listening, would argue
Speaker 1: with that statement. If they do, then you know, there
Speaker 1: are some sicknesses that we could explore, but for the
Speaker 1: most part, healthy control would govern themselves in that manner.
Speaker 1: So no life is greater than or less than another life.
Speaker 1: But I do believe that in theory and human beings
Speaker 1: should empathize with other huge uman's first. So this comparison
Speaker 1: is not to devalue the life of the dog, but
Speaker 1: rather to create a critical examination of why the courts
Speaker 1: will take action in this instance. And you know, pierced
Speaker 1: the veil of qualified immunity. But when it comes to
Speaker 1: black bodies, you know, oftentimes they just don't do that.
Speaker 4: Your thought's cute.
Speaker 2: And even if not first, as is true with black
Speaker 2: lives matter two. Right, even if you're not going to
Speaker 2: place the value of our lives first, right, because that
Speaker 2: has never even been our request for hours to be
Speaker 2: first or greater than or more paramount, how about also right,
Speaker 2: Like we're as important or valuable as a dog. Right,
Speaker 2: we don't have to be first more important for most No,
Speaker 2: just you know, if the dog that presented no danger
Speaker 2: constitutionally could be protected and therefore qualified immunity removed, what
Speaker 2: about the black kid or dad or brother or daughter
Speaker 2: or mother or cousin or sister or brother or you
Speaker 2: get where I'm going here.
Speaker 4: Let me add something right there. Okay, so.
Speaker 1: The dog is approaching the officer, right, and the officer
Speaker 1: uses this to suggest my life is in danger. I
Speaker 1: needed to take action.
Speaker 4: Okay. Countless examples of black people.
Speaker 1: Running away from the officers because and I remember watching
Speaker 1: the Fresh Prince of bel Air there was a jazz
Speaker 1: for those that haven't seen it, DJ Jazzy Jeff as
Speaker 1: a DJ hero of Mine and cues. But jazz Play
Speaker 1: was a character on Fresh Prince of bel Air and
Speaker 1: he said, uh, there was a line in the show.
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you which episode, but he said, you know,
Speaker 1: I I stopped doing what I was doing and put
Speaker 1: my hands up before I got six warning shots in
Speaker 1: the back, right. And it was supposed to be funny.
Speaker 1: But this was in ninety two, ninety three, so you know,
Speaker 1: very much part of my childhood. But we know this
Speaker 1: going all the way back. You know, policing and black
Speaker 1: bodies have never really meshed well together. But running from
Speaker 1: the police is something that we know happens because the police,
Speaker 1: by and large have always been something to fear because
Speaker 1: of situations like that. You know, and you know we
Speaker 1: can name I forget the man's name, and he deserves better.
Speaker 1: But in Georgia at a Wendy's, I'll find his name.
Speaker 1: But there was a Wendy's last year. He was in
Speaker 1: his car, yeah he he, He stopped because he was drinking.
Speaker 1: He stopped and fell asleep in his car, and the
Speaker 1: police showed up, and uh, he got he was talking
Speaker 1: to the police at first, got afraid or got scared
Speaker 1: and tried to run away, and they shot him in
Speaker 1: the back and he died. And that's not an isolated incident.
Speaker 2: Uh Brooks is his name.
Speaker 4: Rashard Brooks exactly.
Speaker 1: And then uh Jacob Blake shot in the back a
Speaker 1: bunch of times, and on and on, you know, and
Speaker 1: so this is a real thing. Remember this dog was
Speaker 1: walking toward the officer, and the courts uh pierced the
Speaker 1: veil of qualified immunity. But in either of those cases,
Speaker 1: the officers are able to hide behind qualified immunity, which
Speaker 1: means that they will not be criminally prosecuted. Civil I
Speaker 1: don't know, but you know, the way this story goes
Speaker 1: with criminal justice in this country wouldn't surprise me. You
Speaker 1: begin to see that no matter what you do. Okay,
Speaker 1: who was the man that was in his car, and
Speaker 1: he let the officer know he had a gun.
Speaker 4: He was with his I think it was his girlfriend.
Speaker 1: He says, I have a gun and I'm a card
Speaker 1: carrying member of the Gun Carriers Club. And the officer
Speaker 1: got Afred, pulled his gun out and shot him in
Speaker 1: the passenger seat. And we saw the video pick up
Speaker 1: right there where he was slumped over in the front
Speaker 1: seat of the car. You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I know this story.
Speaker 4: Okay, I forget his name.
Speaker 2: Fortunately, you know why you forget his name?
Speaker 4: Ramses I knew because there's so many.
Speaker 2: Type type black man shot on Google, and Google automatically
Speaker 2: populates the word police and then thousands of stories pull up. Sure,
Speaker 2: that's why you can't remember his name.
Speaker 1: The point is, and he deserves better, and I will
Speaker 1: find his name. To the point is is that whether
Speaker 1: you're communicating with the police, whether you're silent, whether you're sleeping,
Speaker 1: whether you're running, poured or running away from no.
Speaker 4: Matter what, whether you're home in bed, hey, the list
Speaker 4: goes on. These things can happen.
Speaker 1: And what happens is they keep happening because officers are
Speaker 1: able to hide behind qualified immunity. There's no effectively no
Speaker 1: consequences for it provided the officer says I was afraid,
Speaker 1: but the court says that in the instance of this dog,
Speaker 1: there's no reason to be afraid. Qualified immunity does not
Speaker 1: apply and this trial can proceed. So imagine the slap
Speaker 1: in the face that every black person who's felt the
Speaker 1: sting of police injustice feels on the heels of that.
Speaker 1: And that is an awful place to leave it. But
Speaker 1: unfortunately out of time for this part of this show,
Speaker 1: so we're going to have to move on, but certainly
Speaker 1: something to ponder there. And you know, my belief is
Speaker 1: that we just got to do better as brothers and sisters.
Speaker 1: We really have to empathize and figure out ways to
Speaker 1: do that. So hopefully we'll find out a way to
Speaker 1: do it.
Speaker 4: Stick around your radios.
Speaker 1: We're coming back with more cipy cipher right after this