1
00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:22,036
Speaker 1: Pushkin Today, we have Efa a Donovan on the show,

2
00:00:22,196 --> 00:00:25,316
Speaker 1: and to be honest, couldn't have been better timing. Only

3
00:00:25,316 --> 00:00:27,916
Speaker 1: a handful of days ago Grammy nominations came out and

4
00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:31,996
Speaker 1: our guest Today was nominated for two awards, Best Folk

5
00:00:32,036 --> 00:00:35,556
Speaker 1: Album for her All My Friends record and Best American

6
00:00:35,636 --> 00:00:39,076
Speaker 1: Root Song for the album's title track. Ifa is a

7
00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:42,916
Speaker 1: wonderfully prolific singer and songwriter from the Americana tradition, who

8
00:00:42,956 --> 00:00:47,276
Speaker 1: perhaps also surprisingly has an academic background, having studied improvisation

9
00:00:47,436 --> 00:00:51,156
Speaker 1: at the New England Conservatory of Music. Over the years,

10
00:00:51,156 --> 00:00:54,876
Speaker 1: she's performed with many different groups and with orchestras and symphonies,

11
00:00:55,316 --> 00:00:57,716
Speaker 1: and since twenty ten she's put out a handful of

12
00:00:57,716 --> 00:01:02,036
Speaker 1: beautiful solo works. Her latest Grammy nominated effort, All My Friends,

13
00:01:02,276 --> 00:01:04,996
Speaker 1: is a gorgeous set of songs inspired by the life

14
00:01:04,996 --> 00:01:08,796
Speaker 1: and work of suffragist Carrie Chapman Kat and celebrates the

15
00:01:08,876 --> 00:01:11,996
Speaker 1: hunt year anniversary of women securing the right to vote

16
00:01:12,036 --> 00:01:16,596
Speaker 1: in the US through the nineteenth Amendment. Innipha's conversation with

17
00:01:16,636 --> 00:01:19,396
Speaker 1: Bruce Headlam on today's episode, you'll hear more about how

18
00:01:19,436 --> 00:01:22,596
Speaker 1: the project crystallized for her and some of the challenges

19
00:01:22,676 --> 00:01:27,476
Speaker 1: it posed. She'll also play some songs, so enjoy and

20
00:01:27,756 --> 00:01:34,116
Speaker 1: EFA congratulations on the Grammy Knot. This is broken record

21
00:01:34,436 --> 00:01:42,356
Speaker 1: liner notes to the digital age. I'm justin Ritchman. Here's

22
00:01:42,396 --> 00:01:44,356
Speaker 1: Bruce Headlam and Efo Donovan.

23
00:01:45,396 --> 00:01:49,556
Speaker 2: Let's start with your new album this year, All my Friends.

24
00:01:49,636 --> 00:01:52,676
Speaker 2: Can you tell me about the the genesis of it,

25
00:01:52,756 --> 00:01:54,796
Speaker 2: how it started, where it came from.

26
00:01:55,236 --> 00:01:59,756
Speaker 3: Yes, I made this album over the last several years. Actually,

27
00:01:59,796 --> 00:02:02,316
Speaker 3: it was the longest sort of extended period of time

28
00:02:02,356 --> 00:02:06,596
Speaker 3: I've spent making one album. The music started with this

29
00:02:06,636 --> 00:02:08,316
Speaker 3: little seed of an idea that I got from the

30
00:02:08,396 --> 00:02:11,676
Speaker 3: Orlando filharm Orchestra. They commissioned me to write a piece,

31
00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:15,956
Speaker 3: a twenty minute piece or you know thereabouts, of music

32
00:02:16,636 --> 00:02:19,516
Speaker 3: honoring the Nineteenth Amendment, in memory of the Nineteenth Amendment,

33
00:02:19,636 --> 00:02:21,836
Speaker 3: having something to do with the nineteenth Amendment. It could

34
00:02:21,836 --> 00:02:23,436
Speaker 3: really be whatever I wanted it to be. It didn't

35
00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:25,756
Speaker 3: have to have text, it didn't have to be anything

36
00:02:25,836 --> 00:02:28,996
Speaker 3: other than that I had to write it. So with

37
00:02:29,116 --> 00:02:32,596
Speaker 3: that framework in mind, I wrote the first five songs

38
00:02:32,956 --> 00:02:35,596
Speaker 3: on All my Friends, the first five songs that became

39
00:02:35,636 --> 00:02:38,076
Speaker 3: All my Friends, and then kind of sat on that

40
00:02:38,156 --> 00:02:40,596
Speaker 3: performed it. With Orlando, performed it with the Knights in

41
00:02:40,636 --> 00:02:42,756
Speaker 3: Central Park, performed it with a couple of orchestras, and

42
00:02:42,916 --> 00:02:46,636
Speaker 3: never really thought it would turn into an album, but

43
00:02:46,836 --> 00:02:49,236
Speaker 3: it did. I was commissioned then by Freshcrass Festival to

44
00:02:49,316 --> 00:02:52,236
Speaker 3: write another collection of songs that I tied into the

45
00:02:52,316 --> 00:02:54,876
Speaker 3: original five, and that is what the album is.

46
00:02:55,316 --> 00:02:57,916
Speaker 2: Had you ever written orchestral music before?

47
00:02:58,036 --> 00:03:03,196
Speaker 3: I hadn't, and I had, you know, performed with orchestras

48
00:03:03,236 --> 00:03:07,116
Speaker 3: in the past. I have charts for my pre existing repertoire,

49
00:03:07,516 --> 00:03:10,476
Speaker 3: but I had never written songs the intention for their

50
00:03:10,596 --> 00:03:14,236
Speaker 3: you know, their original form to be orchestral, and so

51
00:03:14,316 --> 00:03:17,116
Speaker 3: it was. It was a pretty daunting task. I was

52
00:03:17,116 --> 00:03:19,556
Speaker 3: so lucky to work with an orchestrator and arranger, this

53
00:03:19,596 --> 00:03:22,156
Speaker 3: woman named Tanner Reporter, who really helped me take my

54
00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:25,036
Speaker 3: melodic and harmonic ideas and she is the one who

55
00:03:25,036 --> 00:03:27,116
Speaker 3: put them on the page and wrote those kind of

56
00:03:27,716 --> 00:03:30,516
Speaker 3: wacky woodwind parts that I could never you know, who

57
00:03:30,516 --> 00:03:31,956
Speaker 3: knows what cleff those guys are in.

58
00:03:32,436 --> 00:03:35,116
Speaker 2: H Yeah, I know they use those two in between claffs.

59
00:03:35,156 --> 00:03:37,556
Speaker 2: So it's just like it's the tenor cleff. Like you're done.

60
00:03:37,636 --> 00:03:39,356
Speaker 2: It's like Viola's to the same.

61
00:03:39,556 --> 00:03:41,596
Speaker 3: Exactly child too, Cleff, I think is viola.

62
00:03:41,276 --> 00:03:45,396
Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, one of those. Uh so it sounds

63
00:03:45,396 --> 00:03:48,396
Speaker 2: like a theater piece in a way. Was it ever

64
00:03:48,556 --> 00:03:50,436
Speaker 2: conceived of as like were people ever going to be

65
00:03:50,516 --> 00:03:52,196
Speaker 2: on stage doing it in character?

66
00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:56,276
Speaker 3: No, that was never my intent. It's funny. I feel

67
00:03:56,276 --> 00:03:57,916
Speaker 3: like I was sort of this this theater kid in

68
00:03:57,996 --> 00:04:00,396
Speaker 3: high school, but I was really always just a musician

69
00:04:00,436 --> 00:04:04,436
Speaker 3: because I am actually a horrible actor, and I was always,

70
00:04:04,516 --> 00:04:06,436
Speaker 3: you know, the last person in the callback. It was

71
00:04:06,436 --> 00:04:08,836
Speaker 3: always between me and one other person. And the only

72
00:04:08,836 --> 00:04:10,476
Speaker 3: reason I was there is because I could sing. But

73
00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:12,956
Speaker 3: I never got those lead roles because in the end

74
00:04:13,436 --> 00:04:15,756
Speaker 3: I would start laughing or break the fourth wall or

75
00:04:15,876 --> 00:04:18,516
Speaker 3: just lose my pool. And it was never never for me.

76
00:04:18,716 --> 00:04:19,916
Speaker 2: That's not what they needed in maime.

77
00:04:21,796 --> 00:04:23,916
Speaker 3: The The funny thing about All My Friends is that

78
00:04:23,956 --> 00:04:26,076
Speaker 3: it came out in March, which is the same month

79
00:04:26,156 --> 00:04:29,516
Speaker 3: that a great Broadway show about suffrage also went up

80
00:04:29,516 --> 00:04:32,156
Speaker 3: by Shanna tab called Seffs. And it's been cool to

81
00:04:32,196 --> 00:04:33,476
Speaker 3: sort of have people come up to me and say,

82
00:04:33,476 --> 00:04:36,196
Speaker 3: have you heard of this? This musical stuffs and it's

83
00:04:36,236 --> 00:04:37,916
Speaker 3: you know, really dealing with a lot of the same topics,

84
00:04:37,916 --> 00:04:40,556
Speaker 3: although a pretty a different, a different, you know, more

85
00:04:40,636 --> 00:04:42,676
Speaker 3: nuanced to take obviously, I think she did. She went

86
00:04:42,716 --> 00:04:46,916
Speaker 3: way deeper into the story and really created full storylines

87
00:04:46,916 --> 00:04:48,796
Speaker 3: for all of these historical characters, minus more of a

88
00:04:48,876 --> 00:04:51,796
Speaker 3: kind of I wouldn't say surface level, but it's a

89
00:04:51,916 --> 00:04:53,876
Speaker 3: it's a miniaturized version of that.

90
00:04:54,116 --> 00:04:58,476
Speaker 2: Okay, but it was. Your songs were inspired by one particular, Yes, Suffragett.

91
00:04:58,876 --> 00:05:02,196
Speaker 2: Can you tell me suffragist? I'm sorry, no, it's okay, Wow,

92
00:05:02,716 --> 00:05:04,556
Speaker 2: am I am? I out of date?

93
00:05:04,716 --> 00:05:07,876
Speaker 3: I was corrected actually initially by somebody who sent me

94
00:05:07,876 --> 00:05:10,156
Speaker 3: a very nice email at the very beginning of this.

95
00:05:10,156 --> 00:05:11,836
Speaker 3: This is many years ago when I first started even

96
00:05:11,876 --> 00:05:13,436
Speaker 3: talking about that I had been commissioned to do this,

97
00:05:13,876 --> 00:05:16,356
Speaker 3: and I was using the term suffragette, and she said,

98
00:05:16,356 --> 00:05:18,076
Speaker 3: you know, I think that you might want to look

99
00:05:18,116 --> 00:05:19,996
Speaker 3: into this because I really believe that the term that

100
00:05:20,516 --> 00:05:23,236
Speaker 3: is more sort of accurate is suffragist, because you know,

101
00:05:23,276 --> 00:05:27,236
Speaker 3: putting ette is maybe a diminutive, it's not necessarily.

102
00:05:26,876 --> 00:05:31,036
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, So tell me about the woman who.

103
00:05:30,876 --> 00:05:34,996
Speaker 3: Inspired Carrie Chapman. Kat is who inspired a bunch of

104
00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:36,836
Speaker 3: songs on this record. And I was really able to

105
00:05:36,996 --> 00:05:44,276
Speaker 3: use her just her experience, her womanhood, her the tenacity,

106
00:05:44,396 --> 00:05:47,156
Speaker 3: and the way her speeches, her letters, her words, her

107
00:05:47,236 --> 00:05:50,556
Speaker 3: voice to kind of really that that's really what gave

108
00:05:50,596 --> 00:05:52,396
Speaker 3: me the kind of the legs that I needed to

109
00:05:52,516 --> 00:05:55,996
Speaker 3: really get this piece moving. I was reading a book

110
00:05:55,996 --> 00:05:58,196
Speaker 3: called The Woman's Hour by Elaine Weiss, a great writer

111
00:05:58,356 --> 00:06:01,756
Speaker 3: who was also a consultant on the musical stuffs, and

112
00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:04,556
Speaker 3: it opens really with the story of Carrie Chapman Kat

113
00:06:04,756 --> 00:06:08,156
Speaker 3: being at the forefront of the final days of marching

114
00:06:08,156 --> 00:06:11,356
Speaker 3: to get the thirty six state their ratification of Tennessee,

115
00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:15,796
Speaker 3: and sort of her involvement, her take. And when I

116
00:06:15,836 --> 00:06:18,596
Speaker 3: went and started kind of googling it and looking into it,

117
00:06:18,636 --> 00:06:21,316
Speaker 3: I found so much text that she had written, so

118
00:06:21,356 --> 00:06:23,996
Speaker 3: many speeches and all these letters and correspondences that she

119
00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:27,316
Speaker 3: had had, and I was really just moved by them,

120
00:06:27,476 --> 00:06:29,116
Speaker 3: and her voice just seemed to kind of jump off

121
00:06:29,116 --> 00:06:31,356
Speaker 3: the page, and I wanted to sing these words.

122
00:06:32,036 --> 00:06:35,996
Speaker 2: What was that like, trying to write to someone else's voice.

123
00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:37,756
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've really done that before. Well,

124
00:06:38,676 --> 00:06:42,076
Speaker 2: you've done songs in other people's voices, but in this way.

125
00:06:41,956 --> 00:06:44,396
Speaker 3: Setting, Yeah, it was difficult, But I think what made

126
00:06:44,436 --> 00:06:46,676
Speaker 3: it easier, honestly, is the fact that when I wrote

127
00:06:46,676 --> 00:06:50,036
Speaker 3: this music initially, I wrote the music first. I didn't

128
00:06:50,076 --> 00:06:52,796
Speaker 3: start with text. I didn't actually even at that point

129
00:06:53,156 --> 00:06:56,116
Speaker 3: the arrangements the charts needed to get made. This is

130
00:06:56,436 --> 00:06:59,196
Speaker 3: November December of twenty twenty. The piece was supposed to

131
00:06:59,236 --> 00:07:01,676
Speaker 3: be premiered in May of twenty twenty one. I needed

132
00:07:01,716 --> 00:07:03,636
Speaker 3: to get the arranger of the music so that the

133
00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:06,476
Speaker 3: arranger could start arranging it, so that the orchestra could

134
00:07:06,476 --> 00:07:09,076
Speaker 3: get it, to do the markings and start learning it.

135
00:07:09,876 --> 00:07:12,636
Speaker 3: So at this point I was working on my previous album,

136
00:07:12,636 --> 00:07:15,876
Speaker 3: Age of Apathy, and coming out of a real deep

137
00:07:16,036 --> 00:07:19,316
Speaker 3: writer's block, you know, kind of dark I don't even

138
00:07:19,356 --> 00:07:21,396
Speaker 3: want to write anything. I have nothing to say period

139
00:07:21,396 --> 00:07:24,996
Speaker 3: in my life. And I somehow managed to like find

140
00:07:24,996 --> 00:07:27,076
Speaker 3: the inspiration to write the music and kind of get

141
00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:29,116
Speaker 3: the basic idea of what I wanted to do these

142
00:07:29,116 --> 00:07:30,676
Speaker 3: five songs that were going to kind of connect with

143
00:07:30,716 --> 00:07:32,596
Speaker 3: each other, but I wasn't sure exactly what the text

144
00:07:32,636 --> 00:07:34,436
Speaker 3: was going to be. And it wasn't until a few

145
00:07:34,476 --> 00:07:38,996
Speaker 3: months later that I kind of got the meat for

146
00:07:39,076 --> 00:07:41,396
Speaker 3: the story and really put it together that way.

147
00:07:41,596 --> 00:07:45,276
Speaker 2: So when you were writing those charts without this character,

148
00:07:45,476 --> 00:07:48,236
Speaker 2: without these songs, were you were you writing a top one?

149
00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:49,076
Speaker 2: Were you doing a melody?

150
00:07:49,156 --> 00:07:50,596
Speaker 3: I was doing a melody, yup, And I did have

151
00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:52,876
Speaker 3: some placeholder lyrics, and some of the songs did have

152
00:07:52,916 --> 00:07:54,836
Speaker 3: some lyrics all my friends. The first song had the

153
00:07:54,876 --> 00:07:58,636
Speaker 3: first verse. I was really just sort of envisioning that

154
00:07:58,916 --> 00:08:02,596
Speaker 3: that sort of just that idea of all my friends,

155
00:08:02,596 --> 00:08:04,196
Speaker 3: you know, you come and go and there are highs

156
00:08:04,196 --> 00:08:06,916
Speaker 3: and lows in your life, and kind of it could

157
00:08:06,916 --> 00:08:08,556
Speaker 3: really apply to anything. And I ended up making it

158
00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:11,196
Speaker 3: much more socific as the song went on, and the

159
00:08:11,236 --> 00:08:14,356
Speaker 3: song daughters also were you know, you're really am not

160
00:08:14,436 --> 00:08:16,676
Speaker 3: singing from Carry Chapman Kat's perspective, that's kind of from

161
00:08:16,676 --> 00:08:19,876
Speaker 3: my own perspective looking back, and that that song had

162
00:08:19,956 --> 00:08:21,836
Speaker 3: maybe half of the lyrics in, but the other the

163
00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:24,516
Speaker 3: other three were just total just melody, melody lines and

164
00:08:24,916 --> 00:08:28,516
Speaker 3: harmony lines and melodic ideas and harmonic structure.

165
00:08:28,876 --> 00:08:33,316
Speaker 2: You may be the first songwriter to put words I'm

166
00:08:33,316 --> 00:08:37,116
Speaker 2: sorry put a melody to the words by Woodrow Wilson.

167
00:08:39,316 --> 00:08:41,556
Speaker 2: I really noted lyric.

168
00:08:41,396 --> 00:08:44,596
Speaker 3: Right, It's really funny. You know, he's a really complicated

169
00:08:44,996 --> 00:08:49,956
Speaker 3: character in American history. And a lot of negative connotations.

170
00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:52,196
Speaker 3: And he was not, you know, by no means a

171
00:08:52,236 --> 00:08:55,276
Speaker 3: great a great guy, but he really was an ally

172
00:08:55,316 --> 00:08:57,436
Speaker 3: of the suffragists. And it's it's interesting to sort of

173
00:08:58,596 --> 00:09:00,836
Speaker 3: from historical lens, say, Okay, there are these people in

174
00:09:00,876 --> 00:09:03,756
Speaker 3: our country's history who really sucked in many ways. But

175
00:09:03,876 --> 00:09:06,556
Speaker 3: what did they do to advance this cause even while

176
00:09:06,556 --> 00:09:09,116
Speaker 3: they may have been pushing back other causes for justice.

177
00:09:09,316 --> 00:09:11,276
Speaker 3: It's it's something that I think we do have to

178
00:09:11,276 --> 00:09:12,916
Speaker 3: grapple with as Americans, right.

179
00:09:12,996 --> 00:09:14,716
Speaker 2: And the song is called war Measures.

180
00:09:14,716 --> 00:09:16,116
Speaker 3: The song is called war measure, and it comes from

181
00:09:16,156 --> 00:09:19,716
Speaker 3: a letter that he wrote to Carrie Chapman Kat responding

182
00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:23,556
Speaker 3: to her, and he's saying, Okay, you know, the women

183
00:09:23,836 --> 00:09:26,276
Speaker 3: are a war measure. We could not win the Great

184
00:09:26,316 --> 00:09:29,036
Speaker 3: War without women staying home on the front lines, at

185
00:09:29,036 --> 00:09:31,836
Speaker 3: home and and sort of picking up the slack. And

186
00:09:31,996 --> 00:09:34,756
Speaker 3: that was his angle, one of his angles to say

187
00:09:34,756 --> 00:09:37,036
Speaker 3: that you know, you guys deserve the vote because look

188
00:09:37,076 --> 00:09:38,356
Speaker 3: at all the stuff you're doing here.

189
00:09:39,036 --> 00:09:41,756
Speaker 2: He felt it was a debt. He kind of owed them,

190
00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:45,796
Speaker 2: and that was that sort of was that a political

191
00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:47,916
Speaker 2: argument he was making, like I've got to make this

192
00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:49,796
Speaker 2: argument and this might work.

193
00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:51,796
Speaker 3: I think it's hard to say exactly what the what

194
00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:54,996
Speaker 3: the motive was. I feel like it's you can really

195
00:09:55,076 --> 00:09:57,356
Speaker 3: apply it to today too. There are so many, you know,

196
00:09:57,596 --> 00:10:00,356
Speaker 3: people have their hands in so many different pockets and politics,

197
00:10:00,436 --> 00:10:04,276
Speaker 3: and and how do you please everybody without alienating this other,

198
00:10:04,516 --> 00:10:08,676
Speaker 3: you know, without alienating your base, so to speak. Right, So,

199
00:10:09,116 --> 00:10:11,636
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, but that song is kind of one

200
00:10:11,676 --> 00:10:13,796
Speaker 3: of my favorite ones to sing because it's I kind

201
00:10:13,796 --> 00:10:15,836
Speaker 3: of tried to make it kind of like a body

202
00:10:16,196 --> 00:10:19,516
Speaker 3: sort of like raucous, kind of barroom type of song.

203
00:10:19,516 --> 00:10:23,076
Speaker 3: It's still obviously very folky, but with the brass, and

204
00:10:23,116 --> 00:10:25,836
Speaker 3: it's it's a fun one to do live, you know.

205
00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:31,076
Speaker 2: Speaking of people with complicated legacies, a lot of the

206
00:10:31,116 --> 00:10:35,956
Speaker 2: original suffragists, Susan B. Anthony and some of the slightly

207
00:10:35,996 --> 00:10:39,916
Speaker 2: more famous ones at one point separated their cause from

208
00:10:40,276 --> 00:10:45,476
Speaker 2: African American enfranchisemen. But Carrie Chapman Cat didn't. She's interesting

209
00:10:45,476 --> 00:10:45,956
Speaker 2: in that way.

210
00:10:46,036 --> 00:10:49,236
Speaker 3: She didn't. But she also was separate from a younger

211
00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:53,636
Speaker 3: kind of cohort of suffragists. And there were many different

212
00:10:53,676 --> 00:10:56,756
Speaker 3: factions of the whole movement, and I think it's just

213
00:10:56,836 --> 00:10:59,756
Speaker 3: it's a lesson that gosh, it's so hard to get

214
00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:04,396
Speaker 3: anything done. And I feel that somebody like Carry Chapman Kat,

215
00:11:04,636 --> 00:11:07,316
Speaker 3: who you know, we don't know her, she's no longer here,

216
00:11:07,636 --> 00:11:11,356
Speaker 3: but after the nineteenth meant she did become a big

217
00:11:11,436 --> 00:11:14,956
Speaker 3: champion of the civil rights cause and was involved in

218
00:11:14,956 --> 00:11:18,636
Speaker 3: that after she had, you know, helped to pass this legislation.

219
00:11:20,196 --> 00:11:21,716
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's yeah, it's it's sort of hard

220
00:11:21,756 --> 00:11:23,956
Speaker 3: to sort of look back and cast judgment for me

221
00:11:24,116 --> 00:11:26,236
Speaker 3: as a as a human being. And that's that's been

222
00:11:26,276 --> 00:11:28,116
Speaker 3: a difficult thing as I've kind of done this record,

223
00:11:28,116 --> 00:11:29,836
Speaker 3: because there there have been people who have stood up

224
00:11:29,836 --> 00:11:31,956
Speaker 3: and say, well, why you know she somebody who stood

225
00:11:31,996 --> 00:11:35,516
Speaker 3: up at a show recently and kind of called me

226
00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:37,676
Speaker 3: out for saying that, why did you choose to highlight

227
00:11:37,796 --> 00:11:40,116
Speaker 3: Carrie Chapman Kat and why didn't you choose to do

228
00:11:40,156 --> 00:11:42,356
Speaker 3: this in the voice of I to b Wells, And

229
00:11:42,396 --> 00:11:43,916
Speaker 3: I was sort of like, well, I think that would

230
00:11:43,956 --> 00:11:46,396
Speaker 3: have created a whole you know, you kind of can't

231
00:11:47,236 --> 00:11:50,676
Speaker 3: necessarily right, I don't know.

232
00:11:50,636 --> 00:11:53,836
Speaker 2: What I'm saying, right, but that would be that's an awkward.

233
00:11:53,836 --> 00:11:55,796
Speaker 3: That would be another sort of awkward situation.

234
00:11:55,916 --> 00:11:57,476
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a different awkward.

235
00:11:57,236 --> 00:11:59,756
Speaker 3: But initially I actually had wanted to do that. I

236
00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:02,276
Speaker 3: had wanted to make this piece be from five different

237
00:12:02,356 --> 00:12:05,756
Speaker 3: suffragists perspective, and that's something that maybe I'll do down

238
00:12:05,756 --> 00:12:07,556
Speaker 3: the road. And I think that Shina did that pretty

239
00:12:07,556 --> 00:12:10,636
Speaker 3: well in Stuffs, where she really did take all those characters,

240
00:12:10,636 --> 00:12:12,396
Speaker 3: and again, that's a much that's sort of like a

241
00:12:12,436 --> 00:12:16,716
Speaker 3: life's work type of piece. But this is my sort

242
00:12:16,716 --> 00:12:19,356
Speaker 3: of first dip, dipping my toes in the water of

243
00:12:19,436 --> 00:12:24,676
Speaker 3: even anything topical. And at the end of the day,

244
00:12:24,956 --> 00:12:27,516
Speaker 3: I think my statement is that I'm just a singer.

245
00:12:27,556 --> 00:12:29,116
Speaker 3: I'm just a folk singer, and this is sort of

246
00:12:29,156 --> 00:12:32,476
Speaker 3: my way of telling this story through my own art form,

247
00:12:32,556 --> 00:12:35,476
Speaker 3: which is ultimately folk songs. Me and a guitar singing

248
00:12:35,476 --> 00:12:38,036
Speaker 3: these songs, trying to connect them with people, with the

249
00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:39,876
Speaker 3: audience and with the musicians that I'm playing with.

250
00:12:40,196 --> 00:12:43,356
Speaker 2: You mentioned that the last day to ratify the nineteenth

251
00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:46,276
Speaker 2: Amendment was or the state that.

252
00:12:46,396 --> 00:12:49,116
Speaker 3: The thirty six stage they made it the law yes.

253
00:12:49,076 --> 00:12:53,516
Speaker 2: Was Tennessee, and she did not. And she was pushed

254
00:12:53,596 --> 00:12:56,836
Speaker 2: to argue against giving black women the vote because that

255
00:12:56,956 --> 00:12:58,956
Speaker 2: probably would have passed through the leasier but she didn't

256
00:12:58,956 --> 00:13:01,236
Speaker 2: do that right now, she did say some things about

257
00:13:01,236 --> 00:13:04,476
Speaker 2: an interracial marriage and some other things. She was a

258
00:13:04,516 --> 00:13:07,156
Speaker 2: creature of the nineteenth century. Far from perfect.

259
00:13:07,316 --> 00:13:09,956
Speaker 3: It's true, It's true, and just sometimes I think a

260
00:13:09,996 --> 00:13:13,996
Speaker 3: lot about what these women were dealing with and what

261
00:13:13,996 --> 00:13:16,956
Speaker 3: they were experiencing as they were growing up. And there's

262
00:13:16,956 --> 00:13:19,916
Speaker 3: another song on the record sort of much more from

263
00:13:19,916 --> 00:13:22,516
Speaker 3: my perspective called Someone to Follow. But I really started

264
00:13:22,516 --> 00:13:26,556
Speaker 3: that song thinking about what were the mothers of the suffragists, Like,

265
00:13:26,916 --> 00:13:30,276
Speaker 3: who were the women that raised these women who ended

266
00:13:30,356 --> 00:13:33,836
Speaker 3: up really changing the world, and were they Was there

267
00:13:34,076 --> 00:13:37,436
Speaker 3: feminism championed by their own mothers and grandmothers? I mean

268
00:13:37,596 --> 00:13:40,876
Speaker 3: likely not in most cases, but I suppose we'll never

269
00:13:40,956 --> 00:13:41,916
Speaker 3: quite know the answer to that.

270
00:13:42,356 --> 00:13:42,556
Speaker 4: Well.

271
00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:47,236
Speaker 2: In the case of Carrie Chapman Kat, she had sort

272
00:13:47,236 --> 00:13:50,956
Speaker 2: of a traumatic life exactly growing up. She wasn't wealthy.

273
00:13:51,756 --> 00:13:56,036
Speaker 2: Her first husband died very soon after they were married.

274
00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:57,516
Speaker 3: Right when she went to San Francisco, and he died

275
00:13:57,516 --> 00:13:58,476
Speaker 3: pretty soon after that.

276
00:13:59,796 --> 00:14:03,396
Speaker 2: So you know, it wasn't she didn't have an easy life.

277
00:14:03,236 --> 00:14:04,836
Speaker 3: No, and she really had to overcome a lot to

278
00:14:05,316 --> 00:14:07,516
Speaker 3: sort of And there's a song actually called the Right

279
00:14:07,556 --> 00:14:10,396
Speaker 3: Time that's kind of about my imagining of her early

280
00:14:10,396 --> 00:14:11,836
Speaker 3: life and how she kind of got through that.

281
00:14:12,436 --> 00:14:14,876
Speaker 2: I thought that was a very interesting song because so

282
00:14:14,956 --> 00:14:20,396
Speaker 2: many of the other songs are they're not marching songs exactly,

283
00:14:20,396 --> 00:14:22,476
Speaker 2: but they're kind of exclamatory and what are we going

284
00:14:22,516 --> 00:14:25,436
Speaker 2: to do? And suddenly you have this song where it's

285
00:14:25,716 --> 00:14:28,396
Speaker 2: more self conscious and it's questioning.

286
00:14:28,076 --> 00:14:29,836
Speaker 3: Right, when is it going to be the right time?

287
00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:34,476
Speaker 2: Is that something you got from her letters, from speeches

288
00:14:34,636 --> 00:14:36,796
Speaker 2: or is that just something you tried to imagine. There

289
00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:40,876
Speaker 2: must have been a point in which this complete powerhouse

290
00:14:42,116 --> 00:14:46,076
Speaker 2: thought to herself, is this going to work?

291
00:14:46,756 --> 00:14:50,036
Speaker 3: That really is from my imagination that song. But I

292
00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:53,516
Speaker 3: think that any strong woman can relate to that idea

293
00:14:53,556 --> 00:14:55,916
Speaker 3: of even whatever the facade is, whatever the front is,

294
00:14:55,916 --> 00:14:58,716
Speaker 3: even if you're the most confident, successful person in the world,

295
00:14:58,796 --> 00:15:02,516
Speaker 3: you obviously have moments of self doubt or of wondering,

296
00:15:03,396 --> 00:15:05,236
Speaker 3: am I on the right path? Is this the right

297
00:15:05,276 --> 00:15:08,156
Speaker 3: thing to do? Will anybody remember me after I go?

298
00:15:10,076 --> 00:15:11,516
Speaker 3: Is it my time? Is it my time?

299
00:15:12,996 --> 00:15:13,956
Speaker 2: Do you want to give us a song?

300
00:15:14,556 --> 00:15:14,836
Speaker 3: Sure?

301
00:15:15,076 --> 00:15:15,396
Speaker 2: All right?

302
00:15:15,596 --> 00:15:16,476
Speaker 3: Don't you just play that song?

303
00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:17,956
Speaker 2: Song? Play any song you like?

304
00:15:18,036 --> 00:15:19,316
Speaker 3: Great? This is so fun.

305
00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:50,956
Speaker 5: And it easy to cn.

306
00:15:55,196 --> 00:16:03,156
Speaker 6: My particle Sharlock movies. Try to lose a lamb all

307
00:16:03,196 --> 00:16:15,596
Speaker 6: the way, don't care anything, love it Bell. I'm a

308
00:16:15,836 --> 00:16:23,756
Speaker 6: fuck woman. I keep matching. He'll turn.

309
00:16:28,196 --> 00:16:32,436
Speaker 7: Farewell, Long Charge City.

310
00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:35,636
Speaker 6: I geese something to talk of.

311
00:16:35,756 --> 00:16:50,316
Speaker 8: Bell's gonna be the red time, Better's gonna be the

312
00:16:50,476 --> 00:16:53,196
Speaker 8: retime berator.

313
00:17:02,756 --> 00:17:11,756
Speaker 6: I feel my pal growl the personal thick skin.

314
00:17:15,636 --> 00:17:22,756
Speaker 7: I'm gonna moan bottle baby, They'll give.

315
00:17:22,676 --> 00:17:33,836
Speaker 5: Him something to think about. What's gonna be time be

316
00:17:37,236 --> 00:17:38,996
Speaker 5: W's gonna be the red.

317
00:17:38,916 --> 00:17:56,836
Speaker 9: Time, That's gonna be the rod, That's gonna be the RITI.

318
00:18:03,876 --> 00:18:15,356
Speaker 10: A good said Francisco with the cool acles down. See

319
00:18:16,956 --> 00:18:18,476
Speaker 10: the Golden Gate.

320
00:18:18,556 --> 00:18:19,756
Speaker 6: Sings so bad?

321
00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:30,596
Speaker 10: Will you miss me when I'm gone? Will you miss

322
00:18:30,676 --> 00:18:36,356
Speaker 10: me when I'm gone? Will you miss me?

323
00:18:36,636 --> 00:18:47,156
Speaker 5: Will you miss me? And gonna be time?

324
00:18:47,956 --> 00:18:49,996
Speaker 6: Mill Rotside.

325
00:18:51,916 --> 00:18:59,636
Speaker 9: Gonna be the right side, gonna.

326
00:18:59,396 --> 00:19:06,236
Speaker 5: Be the rights are mill ROTSI gonna be the right

327
00:19:06,396 --> 00:19:08,796
Speaker 5: side mill ROTSI.

328
00:19:20,756 --> 00:19:24,036
Speaker 2: It's beautiful. I won't turn this into a masterclass, but

329
00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:25,636
Speaker 2: I want you to walk me through the first few

330
00:19:25,756 --> 00:19:28,836
Speaker 2: chords of that. Okay, for our guitar.

331
00:19:28,716 --> 00:19:33,236
Speaker 3: Set, there some drop d M and I'm kind of

332
00:19:33,236 --> 00:19:37,476
Speaker 3: playing like an f shape with the low D and

333
00:19:37,556 --> 00:19:45,316
Speaker 3: the base and capo five and then walking up a

334
00:19:45,356 --> 00:19:47,516
Speaker 3: lot of hammer on ye and then kind of there

335
00:19:47,556 --> 00:19:49,196
Speaker 3: was on the record. There's kind of like a little

336
00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:51,276
Speaker 3: harmonica part that's like.

337
00:20:03,836 --> 00:20:06,076
Speaker 2: And capo and the fifth threat. For those playing along

338
00:20:06,076 --> 00:20:08,516
Speaker 2: at home, yep, okay, let's find out where all that

339
00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:12,156
Speaker 2: we're all that great figurant picking came from.

340
00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:16,156
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Efo Donovan after

341
00:20:16,196 --> 00:20:23,116
Speaker 1: the break. We're back with more from Efo Donovan.

342
00:20:23,876 --> 00:20:25,676
Speaker 2: Did you grow up in a musical family?

343
00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:29,076
Speaker 3: I did. I grew up both my parents are musicians.

344
00:20:29,116 --> 00:20:33,116
Speaker 3: My father was an incredible singer, guitar player, radio host.

345
00:20:33,476 --> 00:20:34,636
Speaker 2: He was a professional music.

346
00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:37,196
Speaker 3: He was a professional well he was a professional music guy.

347
00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:40,956
Speaker 3: He had a radio program on WGBH and was a

348
00:20:41,116 --> 00:20:44,756
Speaker 3: much beloved member of the Boston music community. He's from Ireland.

349
00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:49,196
Speaker 3: He passed away about a year ago, very sadly, and

350
00:20:49,476 --> 00:20:51,636
Speaker 3: we missed him so much. He was really the person

351
00:20:51,676 --> 00:20:54,596
Speaker 3: who I would say both of my parents were kind

352
00:20:54,636 --> 00:20:58,276
Speaker 3: of my biggest cheerleaders and champions growing up playing music,

353
00:20:58,316 --> 00:21:01,796
Speaker 3: and unlike many people who grew up with musician parents,

354
00:21:02,036 --> 00:21:05,076
Speaker 3: I really wanted to be them. I wanted to have

355
00:21:05,156 --> 00:21:08,476
Speaker 3: their life. I loved their social life, their music community,

356
00:21:08,516 --> 00:21:10,796
Speaker 3: their friends. They would always have you know, bands staying

357
00:21:10,836 --> 00:21:13,636
Speaker 3: at our house. They would always have these epic music

358
00:21:13,676 --> 00:21:15,076
Speaker 3: parties at their house where my mom would play the

359
00:21:15,076 --> 00:21:16,956
Speaker 3: piano and people were just standing around the piano singing

360
00:21:16,996 --> 00:21:19,396
Speaker 3: all night. And when I was in high school, my

361
00:21:19,436 --> 00:21:21,396
Speaker 3: friends and I we would like it was like a

362
00:21:21,476 --> 00:21:23,316
Speaker 3: cool thing. At least I guess I thought it was cool.

363
00:21:23,396 --> 00:21:27,276
Speaker 3: Maybe it wasn't, but I'm so glad that that it

364
00:21:27,316 --> 00:21:29,596
Speaker 3: turned out that way and that I didn't rebel against it,

365
00:21:29,636 --> 00:21:31,796
Speaker 3: and you know, only want to, I don't know, do

366
00:21:31,876 --> 00:21:32,796
Speaker 3: something totally different.

367
00:21:33,196 --> 00:21:36,276
Speaker 2: Was it traditional Irish music they played my not really.

368
00:21:36,316 --> 00:21:38,836
Speaker 3: My dad's radio show is mostly traditional Irish music, but

369
00:21:38,876 --> 00:21:41,236
Speaker 3: it's it's really just kind of songs, kind of like

370
00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:44,196
Speaker 3: the culture of a sing song. You know, anybody who

371
00:21:44,316 --> 00:21:46,836
Speaker 3: spent time in Ireland and in kind of that community

372
00:21:47,676 --> 00:21:49,876
Speaker 3: knows that phrase. There's a thing that people do called

373
00:21:49,876 --> 00:21:52,076
Speaker 3: the sing song. And my whole dad's extended family we

374
00:21:52,396 --> 00:21:54,036
Speaker 3: love a sing song where you just get around and

375
00:21:54,036 --> 00:21:56,556
Speaker 3: everybody kind of has their cover that they sing their song,

376
00:21:56,756 --> 00:21:58,836
Speaker 3: and my mom notes all the songs on the piano,

377
00:21:58,916 --> 00:22:00,676
Speaker 3: or somebody passes around a guitar and you just kind

378
00:22:00,676 --> 00:22:02,436
Speaker 3: of it's like a jam basically a jam, but a

379
00:22:02,516 --> 00:22:05,436
Speaker 3: jam with all singing and no instrumentals and no solos.

380
00:22:05,756 --> 00:22:08,916
Speaker 2: What was your first sing song performance?

381
00:22:09,436 --> 00:22:12,156
Speaker 3: My well, my first.

382
00:22:12,436 --> 00:22:14,996
Speaker 2: Maybe very happy. The answers like tainted Love or something

383
00:22:14,996 --> 00:22:15,276
Speaker 2: by it.

384
00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:16,796
Speaker 3: Well, no, you're going to laugh at this. So when

385
00:22:16,836 --> 00:22:19,796
Speaker 3: I was much younger, one of my favorite songs to

386
00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:22,556
Speaker 3: sing that I really sang first at karaoke at the

387
00:22:22,556 --> 00:22:25,996
Speaker 3: Inchridoni Hotel, and I think it was like nineteen ninety four,

388
00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:29,596
Speaker 3: maybe I was probably like eleven or twelve. I sang

389
00:22:29,636 --> 00:22:30,116
Speaker 3: Leader of.

390
00:22:30,076 --> 00:22:35,916
Speaker 2: The Pack, Wow A mad him at the Candy Star Fabulous.

391
00:22:36,156 --> 00:22:37,996
Speaker 3: I got to bring I got to bring that back.

392
00:22:37,996 --> 00:22:39,436
Speaker 3: I just realized I need to bring that one back

393
00:22:39,476 --> 00:22:40,716
Speaker 3: from my karaoke repertoire.

394
00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:43,036
Speaker 2: So that's the first song you did Leader the Pack, that.

395
00:22:43,396 --> 00:22:45,596
Speaker 3: Is in the first batch. But as I got a

396
00:22:45,636 --> 00:22:47,676
Speaker 3: little bit older, I really used to love to sing

397
00:22:48,156 --> 00:22:49,836
Speaker 3: the Dimming of the Day. That was one of my

398
00:22:49,996 --> 00:22:51,636
Speaker 3: party pieces that I would do with my parents.

399
00:22:51,676 --> 00:22:57,116
Speaker 2: Richard Thompson's song Okay, any other Richard I've We've interviewed

400
00:22:57,196 --> 00:22:58,476
Speaker 2: Richard Thompson we're going to do it again.

401
00:22:58,636 --> 00:23:01,836
Speaker 3: So I love to sing nineteen fifty two Vincent back

402
00:23:01,916 --> 00:23:04,196
Speaker 3: Lightning that. That really became more of a sing song

403
00:23:04,236 --> 00:23:05,756
Speaker 3: song as I got a little bit older. I used

404
00:23:05,756 --> 00:23:06,676
Speaker 3: to do that song all the time.

405
00:23:06,756 --> 00:23:08,516
Speaker 2: Can you do the guitar part to that? Because I

406
00:23:08,596 --> 00:23:08,836
Speaker 2: kind of.

407
00:23:08,836 --> 00:23:11,516
Speaker 3: Have my own like version of it that I do, like,

408
00:23:12,036 --> 00:23:13,916
Speaker 3: I don't do. Nobody can play like Richard Thompson, but

409
00:23:13,956 --> 00:23:17,396
Speaker 3: I do just like that.

410
00:23:17,676 --> 00:23:19,916
Speaker 2: It's beautiful. Yeah, he's amazing.

411
00:23:19,956 --> 00:23:21,436
Speaker 3: He does his own. I mean, it's you can't. I

412
00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:23,316
Speaker 3: feel like with Richard Thompson, you can't try to imitate

413
00:23:23,316 --> 00:23:25,476
Speaker 3: his guitar playing. You just have to kind of, you know,

414
00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:28,996
Speaker 3: do a hero too much going on. That song speaks

415
00:23:28,996 --> 00:23:29,676
Speaker 3: for itself yet.

416
00:23:30,636 --> 00:23:32,596
Speaker 2: And so when did the guitar start for you or

417
00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:33,916
Speaker 2: was it guitar your first instrument?

418
00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:36,316
Speaker 3: Guitar was absolutely not my first instrument. I played piano

419
00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:38,836
Speaker 3: growing up and mostly but really mostly I just sang

420
00:23:38,876 --> 00:23:41,116
Speaker 3: and I didn't start playing guitar. I mean, I took

421
00:23:41,156 --> 00:23:43,916
Speaker 3: some guitar lessons in high school and could kind of

422
00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:48,996
Speaker 3: play basic chords and my first band, Crooked, Still, I

423
00:23:49,036 --> 00:23:51,076
Speaker 3: didn't play guitar at all in that band. I just sang,

424
00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:54,316
Speaker 3: and it wasn't until that band really stopped touring. I mean,

425
00:23:54,356 --> 00:23:57,516
Speaker 3: I was playing guitar, you know, for I would do

426
00:23:57,596 --> 00:23:59,916
Speaker 3: the occasional solo show in New York at Rockwood, or

427
00:23:59,956 --> 00:24:02,316
Speaker 3: I was writing songs on guitar, but I didn't really

428
00:24:02,316 --> 00:24:05,556
Speaker 3: start playing guitar and kind of developing my guitar style

429
00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:08,716
Speaker 3: until I would say, gosh, until I've played turned thirty.

430
00:24:08,716 --> 00:24:11,236
Speaker 3: Probably until you know, the last ten eleven years.

431
00:24:11,836 --> 00:24:15,236
Speaker 2: Was there a particular song or experience that made you think, yeah,

432
00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:15,916
Speaker 2: I can do this.

433
00:24:16,716 --> 00:24:18,956
Speaker 3: I waiting for that. I still am like, can I

434
00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:19,556
Speaker 3: play the guitar?

435
00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:22,316
Speaker 2: It was Leader of the Past.

436
00:24:22,356 --> 00:24:25,956
Speaker 3: Well, no, honestly, I feel like it. Actually, probably when

437
00:24:25,956 --> 00:24:28,276
Speaker 3: I started to get more serious about the guitar was

438
00:24:28,276 --> 00:24:31,076
Speaker 3: when I decided I was going to make a solo album,

439
00:24:31,076 --> 00:24:32,396
Speaker 3: and I knew I was going to have to, you know,

440
00:24:32,676 --> 00:24:34,636
Speaker 3: lead a band and play all of these songs on

441
00:24:34,676 --> 00:24:38,396
Speaker 3: the guitar. And my mind, you know, I would hear

442
00:24:38,396 --> 00:24:39,876
Speaker 3: these things in my head that I would want to

443
00:24:39,876 --> 00:24:41,676
Speaker 3: play on guitar, but I needed to figure out how

444
00:24:41,676 --> 00:24:42,996
Speaker 3: to play them on guitar. So it was sort of

445
00:24:43,076 --> 00:24:46,956
Speaker 3: I feel like the songs helped me find my way

446
00:24:47,196 --> 00:24:48,596
Speaker 3: around them, you know.

447
00:24:48,596 --> 00:24:48,916
Speaker 4: What I mean.

448
00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:51,196
Speaker 3: I had the songs, but I needed to my hands

449
00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:52,236
Speaker 3: needed to follow my brain.

450
00:24:52,596 --> 00:24:55,316
Speaker 2: Really yeah, that's interesting. I think for so many people

451
00:24:56,116 --> 00:24:58,876
Speaker 2: it's the other way around, which is they just start

452
00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:02,516
Speaker 2: shapes on the guitar and then the songs come out

453
00:25:02,516 --> 00:25:02,796
Speaker 2: of that.

454
00:25:02,996 --> 00:25:04,836
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not the way it is for me.

455
00:25:04,956 --> 00:25:07,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you figure them out on the piano or

456
00:25:07,276 --> 00:25:07,676
Speaker 2: I would just.

457
00:25:07,676 --> 00:25:09,276
Speaker 3: Like figure them out of my head and then then

458
00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:10,676
Speaker 3: I would have to find I would could hear them

459
00:25:10,716 --> 00:25:12,436
Speaker 3: in my head and have to find them on an instrument.

460
00:25:12,716 --> 00:25:15,836
Speaker 2: Really yeah, that's amazing. When did the song start?

461
00:25:16,836 --> 00:25:18,476
Speaker 3: I started writing songs, I mean, gosh, when I was

462
00:25:18,476 --> 00:25:22,356
Speaker 3: really young. I remember the first the first two songs

463
00:25:22,396 --> 00:25:24,916
Speaker 3: that I feel like we're complete songs I wrote with

464
00:25:25,156 --> 00:25:27,716
Speaker 3: my friend Sarah Heaton, who was an opera singer. She's

465
00:25:27,716 --> 00:25:29,836
Speaker 3: in the met Chorus, and we had a band in

466
00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:31,676
Speaker 3: that We were in seventh grade, and the band was

467
00:25:31,716 --> 00:25:36,156
Speaker 3: called Fairy Missed FAE r I E. It's very inspired

468
00:25:36,196 --> 00:25:39,276
Speaker 3: by the Indigo Girls and by the story that great

469
00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:42,436
Speaker 3: band with Jennifer Kimball and Jonathan Brook Oh, And I

470
00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:44,676
Speaker 3: think we basically just wanted to be either of those

471
00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:49,476
Speaker 3: two female duos, and we made this little cassette demo

472
00:25:49,676 --> 00:25:51,556
Speaker 3: of these two songs. One of them was an original

473
00:25:51,676 --> 00:25:54,956
Speaker 3: called Lover's Secrets that I had the tape somewhere. It's

474
00:25:55,276 --> 00:25:58,036
Speaker 3: really it's kind of a hilarious, but it's a good

475
00:25:58,036 --> 00:25:59,996
Speaker 3: song for two twelve year olds. And then we set

476
00:26:00,076 --> 00:26:02,716
Speaker 3: the E Cummings poem Maggie and Millian Molly and May

477
00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:05,396
Speaker 3: to music and I played it on the piano.

478
00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:06,996
Speaker 2: That sounds like a really good idea.

479
00:26:07,036 --> 00:26:07,596
Speaker 3: It was cool.

480
00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:10,276
Speaker 6: It was like Maggie and me and Molly and May

481
00:26:10,836 --> 00:26:13,356
Speaker 6: went down to the pitch to play one day.

482
00:26:13,396 --> 00:26:15,276
Speaker 3: It had all these cool sort of major to minor

483
00:26:15,396 --> 00:26:16,876
Speaker 3: mode things going. It's cool.

484
00:26:17,716 --> 00:26:21,076
Speaker 2: I think more people should probably do that. I just

485
00:26:21,156 --> 00:26:23,436
Speaker 2: I think I heard, you know, Andrew Bird did a

486
00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:25,916
Speaker 2: song by Oh my God, her name's just flown out

487
00:26:25,956 --> 00:26:28,756
Speaker 2: of my head. She's only the most Emily Dickinson, thank you.

488
00:26:29,196 --> 00:26:30,676
Speaker 2: And I thought, well, this is going to be terrible.

489
00:26:30,716 --> 00:26:33,596
Speaker 2: I thought, actually this is really good. I bet yeah.

490
00:26:33,716 --> 00:26:35,876
Speaker 2: It actually really worked. And you sort of think, oh,

491
00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:38,276
Speaker 2: this is going to be too dramatic in high school, but.

492
00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:40,436
Speaker 3: Now it was I think, is your I mean somebody

493
00:26:40,476 --> 00:26:42,756
Speaker 3: like Andrew bird is definitely up for the challenge.

494
00:26:42,956 --> 00:26:46,436
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Maybe we should leave it to him. And

495
00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:49,316
Speaker 2: then you went to New England Conservatory.

496
00:26:49,356 --> 00:26:49,676
Speaker 3: I did.

497
00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:51,436
Speaker 2: In fact, if you look up I just did this.

498
00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:53,756
Speaker 2: I thought, well, just like when you look up New

499
00:26:53,796 --> 00:26:58,356
Speaker 2: England Conservatory alumni, the first picture is Correta Scott King.

500
00:26:58,596 --> 00:27:01,476
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, and you're the second on Google.

501
00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:04,556
Speaker 3: Wow, maybe that's maybe that's just your Google. You ever

502
00:27:04,596 --> 00:27:06,556
Speaker 3: wonder that because they knew you were searching for me?

503
00:27:08,596 --> 00:27:09,516
Speaker 2: Do I have a Google?

504
00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:10,356
Speaker 3: I don't know, don't you?

505
00:27:10,476 --> 00:27:10,876
Speaker 5: Isn't that like?

506
00:27:10,996 --> 00:27:13,196
Speaker 3: That's is that really true? Me and Coretta Scott King?

507
00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:14,596
Speaker 3: What what company to keep?

508
00:27:14,916 --> 00:27:17,596
Speaker 2: Maybe it was? Well and Rose Kennedy is up there,

509
00:27:17,596 --> 00:27:21,636
Speaker 2: so they've they've covered the rest of the the Boston exactly.

510
00:27:21,676 --> 00:27:24,156
Speaker 3: There's covering their basis.

511
00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:25,516
Speaker 2: They've got the lace curtains.

512
00:27:25,676 --> 00:27:29,956
Speaker 3: I love it that. Yeah. I Corretta Scott King, my

513
00:27:30,236 --> 00:27:32,076
Speaker 3: mother in law, my late mother in law, was a

514
00:27:32,236 --> 00:27:33,036
Speaker 3: new in the conservatory.

515
00:27:33,076 --> 00:27:33,276
Speaker 6: I v.

516
00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:35,516
Speaker 3: Jacobson. It was one of the things that my husband

517
00:27:35,556 --> 00:27:37,156
Speaker 3: and I first like bonded on was that I went

518
00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:39,236
Speaker 3: to ne C and his mom had gone there. She

519
00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:42,476
Speaker 3: was a flute player. But it's it was a great,

520
00:27:42,756 --> 00:27:44,596
Speaker 3: a great place for me. It really, I have to

521
00:27:44,596 --> 00:27:46,956
Speaker 3: give it so much credit for opening my mind in

522
00:27:46,996 --> 00:27:49,036
Speaker 3: ways that I never could have imagined.

523
00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:53,276
Speaker 2: How did you because you went in as someone were

524
00:27:53,276 --> 00:27:55,276
Speaker 2: you considering an opera career.

525
00:27:55,436 --> 00:28:00,476
Speaker 3: I went into the Contemporary Improvisation department, which at that time,

526
00:28:00,516 --> 00:28:03,316
Speaker 3: this is in two thousand when I started, I really

527
00:28:03,636 --> 00:28:06,596
Speaker 3: it was basically part of the jazz department. It was separate,

528
00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:08,596
Speaker 3: but it was there were so few kids in c

529
00:28:08,836 --> 00:28:10,876
Speaker 3: I that it was. I think there were like three

530
00:28:10,996 --> 00:28:13,276
Speaker 3: undergrads when I started, so we were really kind of

531
00:28:13,316 --> 00:28:15,076
Speaker 3: lumped into the jazz department, even though I was not

532
00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:18,316
Speaker 3: a jazz musician at all. I knew nothing about jazz.

533
00:28:18,316 --> 00:28:20,156
Speaker 3: I still know nothing about jazz, but but it was

534
00:28:20,676 --> 00:28:22,356
Speaker 3: it kind of kicked my ass in a way because

535
00:28:22,556 --> 00:28:27,236
Speaker 3: I was around all these people who were so musically virtuosick.

536
00:28:27,276 --> 00:28:32,156
Speaker 3: They had this deep theoretical, you know, language that they

537
00:28:32,156 --> 00:28:36,036
Speaker 3: could speak. They had these great chops, this great rhythm,

538
00:28:36,596 --> 00:28:38,236
Speaker 3: and I felt a little bit like, oh my gosh,

539
00:28:38,276 --> 00:28:40,596
Speaker 3: what am I doing here? What do I have to offer?

540
00:28:41,156 --> 00:28:43,876
Speaker 3: But it was it was really fun. I remember actually

541
00:28:43,916 --> 00:28:45,996
Speaker 3: those first couple of weeks getting together with kids in

542
00:28:46,076 --> 00:28:48,316
Speaker 3: the basement of the dorms and having these like just

543
00:28:48,356 --> 00:28:51,836
Speaker 3: like late night jam sessions, just improvising, singing, making up

544
00:28:51,836 --> 00:28:54,596
Speaker 3: a shit and just kind of going for it.

545
00:28:54,796 --> 00:28:56,156
Speaker 2: Were you playing guitar at that point?

546
00:28:56,316 --> 00:28:56,596
Speaker 5: Not really.

547
00:28:56,636 --> 00:28:59,236
Speaker 3: I was really still mostly just singing. I don't even

548
00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:00,436
Speaker 3: think I was playing. I don't even know I had

549
00:29:00,436 --> 00:29:02,316
Speaker 3: a guitar with me. I was just singing and playing piano.

550
00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:06,596
Speaker 2: Right, that's amazing. And is it four years you did?

551
00:29:06,716 --> 00:29:09,116
Speaker 3: I actually did three years. So I switched halfway out.

552
00:29:09,716 --> 00:29:12,836
Speaker 3: I switched from the bachelor's program my third year. I

553
00:29:12,876 --> 00:29:14,436
Speaker 3: really wanted to tour and I knew I knew I

554
00:29:14,436 --> 00:29:15,676
Speaker 3: didn't want to stay in for four years. So I

555
00:29:15,716 --> 00:29:17,956
Speaker 3: switched to an artist diploma program.

556
00:29:17,996 --> 00:29:20,756
Speaker 2: And then what did it give you? The theory? If

557
00:29:21,396 --> 00:29:24,276
Speaker 2: are you now going to point out, you know, C

558
00:29:24,516 --> 00:29:25,956
Speaker 2: minor thirteenth, Well, you.

559
00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:28,036
Speaker 3: Know, it's funny, it did. It definitely did give me

560
00:29:28,196 --> 00:29:30,916
Speaker 3: all that that theory that I use and I do

561
00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:34,476
Speaker 3: use all the time. I think that people people always say, oh,

562
00:29:34,556 --> 00:29:36,476
Speaker 3: you know, Bob Dylan couldn't read music, or you know

563
00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:38,396
Speaker 3: that people love to sort of shout out these things like,

564
00:29:38,476 --> 00:29:40,196
Speaker 3: you know, just because you can do this, it doesn't.

565
00:29:40,236 --> 00:29:42,916
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean you're better. And that's absolutely true. Many

566
00:29:42,956 --> 00:29:45,556
Speaker 3: of the greatest musicians that I know don't know you know,

567
00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:48,596
Speaker 3: a third from a fifth. But I will say that

568
00:29:48,756 --> 00:29:51,916
Speaker 3: as a side man and as a collaborator, it's so

569
00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:56,316
Speaker 3: handy to have have that skill set in your back pocket,

570
00:29:56,316 --> 00:29:59,116
Speaker 3: and it just makes things go a lot faster to

571
00:29:59,556 --> 00:30:01,516
Speaker 3: be able to know what the chords are when you

572
00:30:01,556 --> 00:30:03,236
Speaker 3: when you want somebody to play along with you. You can

573
00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:04,876
Speaker 3: shout out the chords. You can shout out the key,

574
00:30:04,916 --> 00:30:06,916
Speaker 3: you can shout out the shapes, you can say the numbers,

575
00:30:06,996 --> 00:30:09,076
Speaker 3: or you can say the actual chord. You can trans

576
00:30:09,116 --> 00:30:11,516
Speaker 3: postings quickly in your head, all of those things. I

577
00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:14,076
Speaker 3: think that if you're you know, young people listening, if

578
00:30:14,076 --> 00:30:16,156
Speaker 3: you're considering a career in music, like it doesn't hurt,

579
00:30:16,236 --> 00:30:17,156
Speaker 3: definitely doesn't hurt.

580
00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:20,236
Speaker 2: It's better than shouting out you know Bob Dylan, well,

581
00:30:20,436 --> 00:30:22,756
Speaker 2: he couldn't play, you know what I mean.

582
00:30:22,916 --> 00:30:24,796
Speaker 3: It's I think that people sort of love to and

583
00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:27,196
Speaker 3: and it's it's great. There are many people, like I said,

584
00:30:27,196 --> 00:30:30,116
Speaker 3: who I love to play with who don't speak that language,

585
00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:32,156
Speaker 3: but I mean no disrespect.

586
00:30:31,716 --> 00:30:34,636
Speaker 2: But they bring they bring something else. To the table.

587
00:30:34,996 --> 00:30:37,436
Speaker 2: So then what we were first you said you wanted

588
00:30:37,436 --> 00:30:39,756
Speaker 2: to tour. What were your first steps as a professional.

589
00:30:39,836 --> 00:30:42,796
Speaker 3: So around that time that my band Crooked Still started.

590
00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:47,556
Speaker 3: It was a string band where we did mostly mostly

591
00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:51,516
Speaker 3: old bluegrass songs, old you know, source recording old time

592
00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:56,236
Speaker 3: songs that we would find and rearrange for our untraditional instrumentation.

593
00:30:56,356 --> 00:31:00,116
Speaker 3: We had a crazy cellist named Rashaan Eggleston who really

594
00:31:00,636 --> 00:31:02,596
Speaker 3: was one of the first people to do that the

595
00:31:02,716 --> 00:31:05,196
Speaker 3: chop on the cello. He was at Berkeley, Greg List,

596
00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:08,196
Speaker 3: this great bancho player who was getting a peach Sheett

597
00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:10,556
Speaker 3: at the time and teaches at Berkeley College of Music.

598
00:31:10,996 --> 00:31:12,556
Speaker 3: And a bass player who was also at any scene

599
00:31:12,596 --> 00:31:15,116
Speaker 3: in Corey Tomorrio. We were a quartet. We started playing

600
00:31:15,116 --> 00:31:18,836
Speaker 3: gigs my freshman year of college and really started touring.

601
00:31:18,876 --> 00:31:20,876
Speaker 3: And that's kind of what I wanted to do, was

602
00:31:20,996 --> 00:31:22,836
Speaker 3: go on the road and be with Crooked Still and

603
00:31:23,076 --> 00:31:24,156
Speaker 3: make records and tour.

604
00:31:25,876 --> 00:31:28,276
Speaker 2: And then you also did you did radio, You did

605
00:31:28,276 --> 00:31:29,756
Speaker 2: the Prairie Home Companion.

606
00:31:29,796 --> 00:31:32,236
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a couple of years later that that started.

607
00:31:33,596 --> 00:31:35,436
Speaker 3: That was a huge, huge part of my life for

608
00:31:35,796 --> 00:31:39,436
Speaker 3: in both configurations with Garrison Keeler first for many many years,

609
00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:43,036
Speaker 3: and then when it changed over to Chris Seely, I

610
00:31:43,076 --> 00:31:44,596
Speaker 3: was in the house band for that as well, and

611
00:31:44,636 --> 00:31:48,276
Speaker 3: that was some of those experience, really some of the happiest,

612
00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:53,956
Speaker 3: most fulfilling musical moments of my life. To put it

613
00:31:53,636 --> 00:31:58,236
Speaker 3: in two words, it getting to do that every week.

614
00:31:58,276 --> 00:32:01,716
Speaker 3: I mean, talk about a good course in having to

615
00:32:01,716 --> 00:32:04,796
Speaker 3: have your chops be at a certain you know level.

616
00:32:05,116 --> 00:32:07,116
Speaker 3: Chris is obviously I've worked with Chris for many years.

617
00:32:07,116 --> 00:32:09,396
Speaker 3: We have a band together called Goat Rodeo Sessions. But

618
00:32:09,596 --> 00:32:12,036
Speaker 3: he in that context where he's calling the shots and

619
00:32:12,076 --> 00:32:15,596
Speaker 3: you're showing up on Friday and learning, you know, thirty songs.

620
00:32:15,636 --> 00:32:18,036
Speaker 3: I mean literally often it would be just so much

621
00:32:18,156 --> 00:32:20,356
Speaker 3: music because you would do sort of half song snippets

622
00:32:20,396 --> 00:32:22,276
Speaker 3: of this. You would do song of the week. You

623
00:32:22,276 --> 00:32:25,756
Speaker 3: would many times be in the band for whatever guest

624
00:32:25,876 --> 00:32:28,076
Speaker 3: was on the show, So you'd have to learn, you know,

625
00:32:28,196 --> 00:32:31,396
Speaker 3: all of Trey Anasasio's songs, all the parts for that,

626
00:32:31,436 --> 00:32:32,916
Speaker 3: all the harmony of parts, et cetera.

627
00:32:33,116 --> 00:32:34,996
Speaker 2: It's just one song just goes on a long time.

628
00:32:35,756 --> 00:32:38,116
Speaker 2: What were the would you'd only have a day to

629
00:32:38,236 --> 00:32:38,596
Speaker 2: rehearse it.

630
00:32:39,036 --> 00:32:40,556
Speaker 3: You'd show up on Friday morning, and a lot of

631
00:32:40,596 --> 00:32:42,556
Speaker 3: the times you would not even get. For the first

632
00:32:42,596 --> 00:32:44,476
Speaker 3: couple of years that Chris was doing it, he was

633
00:32:44,516 --> 00:32:47,196
Speaker 3: doing this thing called Song of the Week and he

634
00:32:47,236 --> 00:32:50,116
Speaker 3: would be writing the song all week and he often

635
00:32:50,116 --> 00:32:53,836
Speaker 3: wouldn't finish it until the middle of the night on Thursday.

636
00:32:53,876 --> 00:32:58,356
Speaker 3: So you would wake up on Friday morning with an

637
00:32:58,476 --> 00:33:03,956
Speaker 3: MP three in your inbox and have to basically learn

638
00:33:04,036 --> 00:33:08,396
Speaker 3: the song by the rehearsal, which usually started at twelve wow.

639
00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:10,356
Speaker 3: And then you would have the rehearsal from like twelve

640
00:33:10,356 --> 00:33:12,036
Speaker 3: to ten, and then you'd go back the next day

641
00:33:12,076 --> 00:33:14,436
Speaker 3: and started sometimes as early as like seven thirty in

642
00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:17,556
Speaker 3: the morning, and then do the show. It was such

643
00:33:17,556 --> 00:33:19,316
Speaker 3: a rush. It was really really fun.

644
00:33:19,716 --> 00:33:22,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, it must have been. It must have just been

645
00:33:22,116 --> 00:33:23,756
Speaker 2: a terrifying in that.

646
00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:26,236
Speaker 3: But everybody's in it together, so it's this sort of

647
00:33:26,556 --> 00:33:30,036
Speaker 3: real communal, communal terrifying thing of just saying, Okay, we

648
00:33:30,076 --> 00:33:32,156
Speaker 3: got this and it's live radio. That's the thing. It's live,

649
00:33:32,196 --> 00:33:33,476
Speaker 3: and that it happens and it's over.

650
00:33:33,756 --> 00:33:36,796
Speaker 2: It sounds like you're like playing in the NFL or something.

651
00:33:36,876 --> 00:33:39,796
Speaker 2: It's just like doing an award show every week.

652
00:33:39,876 --> 00:33:41,796
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was so much fun.

653
00:33:42,236 --> 00:33:43,636
Speaker 2: Tell me about something I wasn't going to ask you

654
00:33:43,636 --> 00:33:46,396
Speaker 2: about the guests, but now that you mentioned it, can

655
00:33:46,436 --> 00:33:48,836
Speaker 2: you remember any experiences that stand out with the guests?

656
00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:51,516
Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh, I mean it, tons. I mean that

657
00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:54,596
Speaker 3: first show, this is right when Chris took over. That

658
00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:56,876
Speaker 3: was the one with Trey that was like just such

659
00:33:56,916 --> 00:33:59,756
Speaker 3: a blast. There was one that we did with Craigorye

660
00:33:59,796 --> 00:34:03,036
Speaker 3: on Isaacov that was really special we did. I got

661
00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:05,756
Speaker 3: to sing with Renee Fleming with Garrison actually the first time.

662
00:34:05,796 --> 00:34:07,116
Speaker 3: That was another time that I got to sing with

663
00:34:07,356 --> 00:34:09,516
Speaker 3: the guest. Bonnie Vera got to sing with Bonnie on

664
00:34:09,556 --> 00:34:13,316
Speaker 3: that show. The list goes on and on. It was

665
00:34:13,356 --> 00:34:16,996
Speaker 3: every week it was somebody different who was incredible and

666
00:34:17,036 --> 00:34:18,276
Speaker 3: getting to just sing harmonies with.

667
00:34:18,636 --> 00:34:21,116
Speaker 2: I talked to someone who did this analysis of Renee

668
00:34:21,116 --> 00:34:23,876
Speaker 2: Fleming and they just they ran her voice through and

669
00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:28,236
Speaker 2: apparently she can hit just dead center of every note.

670
00:34:28,596 --> 00:34:31,516
Speaker 3: She's she's a real magical singer.

671
00:34:31,676 --> 00:34:36,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, and no slide when she's going up to it.

672
00:34:36,716 --> 00:34:38,596
Speaker 2: Just he said it was surreal, like you never see

673
00:34:38,596 --> 00:34:39,636
Speaker 2: someone who can sing like that.

674
00:34:39,756 --> 00:34:41,316
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's still she still got it.

675
00:34:41,476 --> 00:34:45,716
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So tell me then you had that project.

676
00:34:45,756 --> 00:34:48,756
Speaker 2: You've had other projects. You did go Rodeo with Yo

677
00:34:48,836 --> 00:34:50,796
Speaker 2: Yo Ma. I guess you should explain.

678
00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:54,236
Speaker 3: That that really came through Chris and Edgar Meyer are

679
00:34:54,276 --> 00:34:57,036
Speaker 3: both and Stewart. I mean, that's kind of my world

680
00:34:57,116 --> 00:35:02,756
Speaker 3: there the bluegrassers when that started in two thousand and eleven,

681
00:35:03,396 --> 00:35:05,556
Speaker 3: I think that's when when that started. They were writing

682
00:35:05,676 --> 00:35:08,756
Speaker 3: music and they knew they wanted to have some vocals

683
00:35:08,756 --> 00:35:10,756
Speaker 3: on the album, but Chris didn't want to do it

684
00:35:10,756 --> 00:35:13,076
Speaker 3: by himself, or Edgar thought that it should be a duet.

685
00:35:13,516 --> 00:35:15,356
Speaker 3: And I think he had heard Chris and I sing

686
00:35:15,436 --> 00:35:18,676
Speaker 3: Farewell Angelina. I tell your ed a couple of years before,

687
00:35:18,676 --> 00:35:20,236
Speaker 3: and he's like, what about you and if I do

688
00:35:20,236 --> 00:35:23,276
Speaker 3: a couple songs. So we wrote those two songs that

689
00:35:23,276 --> 00:35:25,476
Speaker 3: are on the first record together, and then for the

690
00:35:25,516 --> 00:35:28,356
Speaker 3: next record, which was almost a decade later, I actually

691
00:35:28,396 --> 00:35:30,916
Speaker 3: got together with them and wrote the music and the

692
00:35:30,996 --> 00:35:33,996
Speaker 3: lyrics for those two songs that are on the newer one.

693
00:35:34,716 --> 00:35:38,476
Speaker 2: And they don't you know people who you know? I

694
00:35:38,476 --> 00:35:45,676
Speaker 2: grew up with certain classical popular music crossovers you Hoodie Menu,

695
00:35:45,716 --> 00:35:49,996
Speaker 2: and famously did albums with Stephan Gripelli, the Great Jazz violinist,

696
00:35:50,076 --> 00:35:52,876
Speaker 2: and you know, it never really it was a kind

697
00:35:52,916 --> 00:35:55,436
Speaker 2: of a party trick that never really worked, but it

698
00:35:55,516 --> 00:35:58,156
Speaker 2: was nice to be at the party. This is something

699
00:35:58,196 --> 00:35:59,116
Speaker 2: completely different.

700
00:35:59,516 --> 00:36:02,756
Speaker 3: Well, yo yo is I think he has managed to

701
00:36:02,796 --> 00:36:06,876
Speaker 3: avoid falling into that trap of being somebody else's party trick.

702
00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:12,556
Speaker 3: He's there's not really any musical figure quite like him,

703
00:36:12,596 --> 00:36:14,516
Speaker 3: I think alive today, and I don't know if there

704
00:36:14,516 --> 00:36:16,916
Speaker 3: really ever has been or will be. He's a one

705
00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:23,116
Speaker 3: in a million guy musician, player, cellist, and his taste

706
00:36:23,476 --> 00:36:28,796
Speaker 3: for creating something special is infectious. He really he pulls

707
00:36:28,836 --> 00:36:33,076
Speaker 3: people together, He sits back, he does his thing, and

708
00:36:33,116 --> 00:36:36,556
Speaker 3: he lets everything else kind of come around it and

709
00:36:37,036 --> 00:36:40,356
Speaker 3: sort of envelop it in whatever it's doing, do you

710
00:36:40,356 --> 00:36:43,436
Speaker 3: know what I mean? So in Goat Rodeo, he's not

711
00:36:43,636 --> 00:36:47,796
Speaker 3: being asked to do the same stuff that Stuart and

712
00:36:47,796 --> 00:36:49,916
Speaker 3: Ager and Chris are doing. He's being asked to be

713
00:36:50,076 --> 00:36:53,956
Speaker 3: himself and play these gorgeous melodic lines and harmonize with

714
00:36:54,316 --> 00:36:57,756
Speaker 3: the other string instruments and provide the rhythm that only

715
00:36:57,796 --> 00:37:00,276
Speaker 3: he can do in his way. And then they managed

716
00:37:00,316 --> 00:37:03,756
Speaker 3: to sort of create what almost sounds like a chamber

717
00:37:03,876 --> 00:37:06,676
Speaker 3: orchestra with just these four instruments and it's really special.

718
00:37:06,716 --> 00:37:08,196
Speaker 3: I think it doesn't sound like crossover at all. I

719
00:37:08,196 --> 00:37:09,676
Speaker 3: think it just sounds like music.

720
00:37:10,236 --> 00:37:11,996
Speaker 2: It it sounds like it's his own thing, That's what

721
00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:13,836
Speaker 2: I mean. It doesn't it doesn't have that kind of

722
00:37:14,636 --> 00:37:17,356
Speaker 2: you know, Pava Rotti sings the classics and I think.

723
00:37:17,196 --> 00:37:20,316
Speaker 3: That Yoyo achieves that as well, and other sort of

724
00:37:20,396 --> 00:37:22,916
Speaker 3: collaborations that he does across the board, the Silk Road Ensemble,

725
00:37:23,036 --> 00:37:25,156
Speaker 3: you know, and it's when it first started, it was

726
00:37:25,156 --> 00:37:26,836
Speaker 3: really a lot of that sort of world music and

727
00:37:26,876 --> 00:37:30,396
Speaker 3: bringing people in and it never sounded cheesy or forced

728
00:37:30,476 --> 00:37:30,716
Speaker 3: to me.

729
00:37:31,076 --> 00:37:33,516
Speaker 2: No, He's just a great experiment.

730
00:37:33,516 --> 00:37:35,876
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, and it's really honest and authentic. And I

731
00:37:35,876 --> 00:37:38,516
Speaker 3: think that that's when you can sniff that somebody's doing

732
00:37:38,556 --> 00:37:43,476
Speaker 3: something to be a crossover thing. That then that's when

733
00:37:43,796 --> 00:37:44,596
Speaker 3: you start to lose me.

734
00:37:44,876 --> 00:37:51,396
Speaker 2: Yeah. So your first album was Fossil and if someone

735
00:37:51,436 --> 00:37:54,716
Speaker 2: looked at the album, looked at the photo, looked at

736
00:37:54,716 --> 00:37:57,556
Speaker 2: the titles, they would think, oh, someone's doing a traditional

737
00:37:58,676 --> 00:38:02,916
Speaker 2: Irish album. They're doing but it's you, it's me, your.

738
00:38:02,836 --> 00:38:04,716
Speaker 3: Song, it's exactly, it's all my songs.

739
00:38:05,156 --> 00:38:07,236
Speaker 2: How did did that come naturally? Out of the songs

740
00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:09,596
Speaker 2: you'd been doing before or is that something thought now

741
00:38:09,636 --> 00:38:12,156
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna make everybody think it's one thing.

742
00:38:12,356 --> 00:38:14,476
Speaker 3: No, that really did come naturally out of the songs

743
00:38:14,476 --> 00:38:16,276
Speaker 3: that I had been working on, you know, your first

744
00:38:16,316 --> 00:38:19,236
Speaker 3: solo album. Obviously, I was twenty nine when I made it,

745
00:38:19,276 --> 00:38:21,636
Speaker 3: so it was everything that I had, not everything, but

746
00:38:21,996 --> 00:38:23,796
Speaker 3: the ten best songs that I had written up to

747
00:38:23,836 --> 00:38:25,516
Speaker 3: that point, and I really had, you know, quite a

748
00:38:25,516 --> 00:38:29,556
Speaker 3: few to choose from. But that was a I really

749
00:38:29,556 --> 00:38:31,236
Speaker 3: wanted to do it. I wanted to make a solo album.

750
00:38:31,276 --> 00:38:32,996
Speaker 3: I wanted to work with Tucker Martin. That was kind

751
00:38:32,996 --> 00:38:34,996
Speaker 3: of a dream of mine in my twenties was to

752
00:38:34,996 --> 00:38:35,996
Speaker 3: get to make a record.

753
00:38:35,836 --> 00:38:37,996
Speaker 2: With Tucker and it's and tell us about why.

754
00:38:38,756 --> 00:38:42,596
Speaker 3: Tucker Martin had made some records that really just knocked

755
00:38:42,636 --> 00:38:45,636
Speaker 3: me out when I was in that in you know,

756
00:38:45,676 --> 00:38:48,756
Speaker 3: the early two thousands. His records with Lower Years I

757
00:38:48,796 --> 00:38:51,396
Speaker 3: loved so much. I still love so much. But it

758
00:38:51,516 --> 00:38:54,636
Speaker 3: was in particular a record he made with Sarah Siskind,

759
00:38:55,156 --> 00:38:57,636
Speaker 3: who I first met in I think two thousand and

760
00:38:57,876 --> 00:39:01,036
Speaker 3: three or two thousand and four, a great singer songwriter.

761
00:39:01,396 --> 00:39:03,636
Speaker 3: She was filling in in a band that I was

762
00:39:03,636 --> 00:39:05,916
Speaker 3: in called The Wayfaring Strangers, and she this was before

763
00:39:06,076 --> 00:39:08,396
Speaker 3: she had had, you know, the sort of viral success

764
00:39:08,396 --> 00:39:10,716
Speaker 3: she ended up hapening having with Bonnie Vera covering her

765
00:39:10,716 --> 00:39:12,676
Speaker 3: song and with you know, writing for the TV show

766
00:39:12,676 --> 00:39:15,276
Speaker 3: in Nashville and doing all this stuff and being quite

767
00:39:15,316 --> 00:39:17,556
Speaker 3: an alouded writer that she is now. But she made

768
00:39:17,556 --> 00:39:20,196
Speaker 3: this record called Covered. She gave it to me, gave

769
00:39:20,196 --> 00:39:21,836
Speaker 3: me a copy of the CD in two thousand and

770
00:39:21,876 --> 00:39:23,996
Speaker 3: three or two thousand and four, whenever it was, And

771
00:39:24,476 --> 00:39:26,516
Speaker 3: I remember getting home and putting it in my car

772
00:39:26,716 --> 00:39:29,916
Speaker 3: and just I was like, what is this music? What

773
00:39:29,996 --> 00:39:33,636
Speaker 3: is this production? Who made this record? Someday I want

774
00:39:33,636 --> 00:39:35,356
Speaker 3: to make a record with whoever this guy is. And

775
00:39:35,436 --> 00:39:37,596
Speaker 3: it really happened. It's just really cool.

776
00:39:39,036 --> 00:39:42,396
Speaker 2: And then you were you were covered by Alison Kraus.

777
00:39:42,476 --> 00:39:45,596
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that happened before I made my record. And

778
00:39:45,676 --> 00:39:48,716
Speaker 3: I remember getting that that call she she covered my

779
00:39:48,756 --> 00:39:50,916
Speaker 3: song Laid My Burden Down. She first covered it for

780
00:39:50,956 --> 00:39:53,316
Speaker 3: a movie called Get Low with Bill Murray and Robert Duvall,

781
00:39:53,396 --> 00:39:55,356
Speaker 3: and then they ended up recutting it for a Union

782
00:39:55,356 --> 00:39:56,796
Speaker 3: station recorded.

783
00:39:58,316 --> 00:39:59,956
Speaker 2: Affirming, Oh it was it was.

784
00:40:00,716 --> 00:40:02,476
Speaker 3: I think that That was the moment where I was like,

785
00:40:02,516 --> 00:40:05,196
Speaker 3: maybe maybe I can, you know, write songs and I

786
00:40:05,196 --> 00:40:05,756
Speaker 3: can sing.

787
00:40:05,596 --> 00:40:09,916
Speaker 2: Them because she's a little well, she's a little like

788
00:40:10,196 --> 00:40:13,236
Speaker 2: yo yo ma in that whatever else she does, she's

789
00:40:13,236 --> 00:40:14,756
Speaker 2: got incredible taste.

790
00:40:14,716 --> 00:40:16,636
Speaker 3: She really does.

791
00:40:16,356 --> 00:40:18,716
Speaker 2: She doesn't hit too many bad notes.

792
00:40:18,796 --> 00:40:20,716
Speaker 3: Yeah, talk about singing in the center of a pitch.

793
00:40:20,956 --> 00:40:25,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, incredible, incredible voice. Did it change the way

794
00:40:25,796 --> 00:40:27,676
Speaker 2: you were writing at that point? Was it still just

795
00:40:27,916 --> 00:40:29,156
Speaker 2: I got the song in my head?

796
00:40:29,316 --> 00:40:29,516
Speaker 8: All?

797
00:40:29,956 --> 00:40:33,276
Speaker 3: Yeah, it didn't really change my approach to the craft itself,

798
00:40:33,356 --> 00:40:36,636
Speaker 3: but it definitely gave me probably a much needed boost

799
00:40:36,756 --> 00:40:40,236
Speaker 3: of confidence to say, Okay, I can be I even

800
00:40:40,276 --> 00:40:42,596
Speaker 3: still you know, am like, am I a songwriter? Am

801
00:40:42,596 --> 00:40:45,636
Speaker 3: I a singer? Songwriter? What is it exactly that I do?

802
00:40:46,116 --> 00:40:48,436
Speaker 3: But that was the first moment where somebody else said, Okay,

803
00:40:48,436 --> 00:40:50,116
Speaker 3: we like this song and we want to sing it.

804
00:40:50,156 --> 00:40:52,556
Speaker 3: And that's that's a huge compliment to any songwriter.

805
00:40:52,956 --> 00:40:57,996
Speaker 2: H And then there's a check coming. That's another nice thing.

806
00:40:58,156 --> 00:41:00,516
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, Yeah.

807
00:41:00,316 --> 00:41:03,116
Speaker 2: That's a good thing too. But you said you ran

808
00:41:03,196 --> 00:41:05,916
Speaker 2: at a writer's block. Was that before the age of

809
00:41:05,956 --> 00:41:06,876
Speaker 2: apathy or.

810
00:41:06,796 --> 00:41:09,796
Speaker 3: That was before the age of apathy? So after Fossils,

811
00:41:09,796 --> 00:41:11,316
Speaker 3: I made a record called in the Magic Hour, did

812
00:41:11,356 --> 00:41:14,516
Speaker 3: a bunch of stuff in the interim my band I'm

813
00:41:14,516 --> 00:41:17,196
Speaker 3: with Her, et cetera. When when COVID hit is really

814
00:41:17,236 --> 00:41:19,356
Speaker 3: I just come out of a two year tour with

815
00:41:19,516 --> 00:41:22,836
Speaker 3: I'm with Her. My child was two a little bit

816
00:41:22,876 --> 00:41:24,476
Speaker 3: more than two. She was two and a couple of months,

817
00:41:25,476 --> 00:41:27,876
Speaker 3: and I really hadn't hadn't stopped in a long time,

818
00:41:27,916 --> 00:41:29,956
Speaker 3: and I had made no time to sort of sit

819
00:41:29,996 --> 00:41:32,996
Speaker 3: and be creative and think about what I wanted to

820
00:41:32,996 --> 00:41:34,716
Speaker 3: say and what kind of songs were going to come out.

821
00:41:35,076 --> 00:41:37,116
Speaker 3: So that whole first six months of COVID I was

822
00:41:37,116 --> 00:41:39,796
Speaker 3: really just, like you know, I think many people were

823
00:41:41,076 --> 00:41:43,196
Speaker 3: kind of stricken with what am I going to do?

824
00:41:43,236 --> 00:41:45,276
Speaker 3: What am I going to do? And out of that,

825
00:41:45,596 --> 00:41:48,676
Speaker 3: it was really when I moved to Florida that somehow

826
00:41:48,756 --> 00:41:51,076
Speaker 3: something kind of got unlocked and I was able to

827
00:41:51,156 --> 00:41:55,796
Speaker 3: sort of reaccess that side of myself. And it's I'm

828
00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:58,396
Speaker 3: so grateful because it's once the door kind of got

829
00:41:58,396 --> 00:42:01,516
Speaker 3: pushed open, it's just continued to be fruitful.

830
00:42:01,676 --> 00:42:04,876
Speaker 2: Okay, but it was six months COVID. Yeah, I'm not

831
00:42:04,916 --> 00:42:05,436
Speaker 2: sure that's right.

832
00:42:06,516 --> 00:42:08,876
Speaker 3: I'm sure there's there's much more writers blocked down the

833
00:42:08,956 --> 00:42:09,516
Speaker 3: road for me.

834
00:42:10,836 --> 00:42:14,916
Speaker 2: So well, then you made Age of Apathy with one

835
00:42:14,956 --> 00:42:17,756
Speaker 2: of our favorite people here, Joe Henry, one of the greats,

836
00:42:17,996 --> 00:42:19,716
Speaker 2: one of the greats. How did that come about?

837
00:42:20,436 --> 00:42:25,556
Speaker 3: I first met Joe in twenty fourteen in Cincinnati. I

838
00:42:25,596 --> 00:42:28,076
Speaker 3: was doing a show with the Cincinnati Pops called American

839
00:42:28,076 --> 00:42:31,196
Speaker 3: Originals where we were singing the songs of Stephen Foster

840
00:42:31,316 --> 00:42:33,036
Speaker 3: and it was Rosanne Cash. That's also where I met

841
00:42:33,076 --> 00:42:37,156
Speaker 3: Rosann Cash has become a friend. Joe, Henry, Don Flemons

842
00:42:37,196 --> 00:42:42,076
Speaker 3: was there, The Great Band Over the Rhine was there.

843
00:42:42,196 --> 00:42:46,716
Speaker 3: It was a really special weekend of music, and I

844
00:42:46,756 --> 00:42:48,636
Speaker 3: really had it off with Joe. And you know, I

845
00:42:48,756 --> 00:42:52,636
Speaker 3: didn't see him that often over the next decade or

846
00:42:52,676 --> 00:42:56,116
Speaker 3: eight years, but I knew again he was somebody who

847
00:42:56,156 --> 00:42:57,556
Speaker 3: I was like, I want to make a record with Joe.

848
00:42:57,596 --> 00:42:59,596
Speaker 3: I love the way his records sound, his solo records.

849
00:42:59,596 --> 00:43:01,796
Speaker 3: I love the way his the records he produces sound.

850
00:43:01,916 --> 00:43:04,316
Speaker 3: And I just knew we had a kinship, we had

851
00:43:04,356 --> 00:43:07,036
Speaker 3: a vibe, and I knew he was the right person

852
00:43:07,156 --> 00:43:09,716
Speaker 3: for Age of Apathy. When I got to Florida and

853
00:43:09,716 --> 00:43:11,596
Speaker 3: I started making the demost Rage of Apathy. I think

854
00:43:11,636 --> 00:43:13,476
Speaker 3: I'd made like three demos and I just kind of

855
00:43:13,476 --> 00:43:15,716
Speaker 3: cold called him and I was like, can can we talk?

856
00:43:16,276 --> 00:43:19,196
Speaker 3: Are you interested in making this record? It's covid. We're

857
00:43:19,196 --> 00:43:21,076
Speaker 3: not going to be able to do it in a

858
00:43:21,156 --> 00:43:23,756
Speaker 3: traditional way where we're in the studio together, but I

859
00:43:23,836 --> 00:43:25,876
Speaker 3: think this will work if I make these demos and

860
00:43:25,876 --> 00:43:27,276
Speaker 3: send them to you and you send them back. And

861
00:43:28,236 --> 00:43:30,356
Speaker 3: it worked so well, it was so much fun.

862
00:43:30,596 --> 00:43:32,436
Speaker 2: Well, you're lucky it was Covid because he's in Maine.

863
00:43:33,556 --> 00:43:34,716
Speaker 2: You don't want to go there, and we.

864
00:43:34,676 --> 00:43:36,996
Speaker 3: Had just moved too. Is really he had just gotten

865
00:43:36,996 --> 00:43:39,196
Speaker 3: to main and when we were starting these conversations.

866
00:43:38,796 --> 00:43:39,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, he don't want to do that.

867
00:43:39,796 --> 00:43:41,116
Speaker 3: No, I'm from Massachusetts. I know.

868
00:43:41,476 --> 00:43:44,876
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, you know, just as in the side.

869
00:43:44,996 --> 00:43:47,716
Speaker 2: Roseanne Cash one of the first people we interviewed for

870
00:43:47,756 --> 00:43:50,276
Speaker 2: the show and Joe both helped us. Malcolm and I

871
00:43:50,316 --> 00:43:54,356
Speaker 2: did a book with Paul Simon and they both contributed chapters,

872
00:43:54,436 --> 00:43:58,196
Speaker 2: but the producers cut Joe's and I was so disappointed. Ah,

873
00:43:58,196 --> 00:44:00,156
Speaker 2: I know, he did this amazing riff on the song

874
00:44:00,236 --> 00:44:01,916
Speaker 2: duncan I don't if you know that side I do, and.

875
00:44:01,876 --> 00:44:03,436
Speaker 3: It's exact I feel like I've heard Joe play that

876
00:44:03,436 --> 00:44:04,196
Speaker 3: song before.

877
00:44:04,316 --> 00:44:06,676
Speaker 2: He's played it, but he did this. He did this

878
00:44:06,716 --> 00:44:09,836
Speaker 2: big thing about how it's like the Boxer but different

879
00:44:10,636 --> 00:44:13,516
Speaker 2: in the same way that to have and have not

880
00:44:13,916 --> 00:44:16,756
Speaker 2: is different from Casablanca but kind of the same. Okay,

881
00:44:16,796 --> 00:44:18,036
Speaker 2: it was so genius.

882
00:44:18,396 --> 00:44:19,676
Speaker 3: I got to read that book.

883
00:44:19,836 --> 00:44:23,516
Speaker 2: Well, it's an audiobook. And then Roseanne and her I

884
00:44:23,516 --> 00:44:24,316
Speaker 2: don't know if you know her.

885
00:44:24,236 --> 00:44:25,716
Speaker 3: Husband, yeah, John, of course.

886
00:44:26,276 --> 00:44:26,996
Speaker 5: They did.

887
00:44:28,476 --> 00:44:30,956
Speaker 2: Only living one New York and they just talked about

888
00:44:30,996 --> 00:44:33,916
Speaker 2: the production because the production of that song is so increased.

889
00:44:33,956 --> 00:44:35,436
Speaker 3: Is it on the audible or how do I get this?

890
00:44:36,236 --> 00:44:37,996
Speaker 2: I don't know how you fd that's terribly.

891
00:44:37,876 --> 00:44:40,916
Speaker 3: I'll find Yeah, that's so cool. That one of the

892
00:44:41,036 --> 00:44:43,996
Speaker 3: and I still say that the best nights of my life,

893
00:44:44,476 --> 00:44:46,436
Speaker 3: the best, the top three nights of my life. I

894
00:44:46,596 --> 00:44:49,276
Speaker 3: was seeing Paul Simon and Madison Square Garden really in

895
00:44:49,316 --> 00:44:53,516
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen. It really was. It was just one of

896
00:44:53,556 --> 00:44:56,796
Speaker 3: those moments that gosh. I actually went with Sarah Drose

897
00:44:57,556 --> 00:44:59,276
Speaker 3: the two of us went, we bought tickets. We were

898
00:44:59,276 --> 00:45:03,196
Speaker 3: in the thirteenth row and we had we were sobbing

899
00:45:03,196 --> 00:45:03,836
Speaker 3: the entire time.

900
00:45:03,876 --> 00:45:04,156
Speaker 1: It was.

901
00:45:04,236 --> 00:45:04,916
Speaker 3: It was so good.

902
00:45:05,156 --> 00:45:06,596
Speaker 2: Yeah, so many good songs.

903
00:45:06,316 --> 00:45:08,236
Speaker 3: So many good songs, and also what a great performer.

904
00:45:08,676 --> 00:45:11,436
Speaker 3: My favoritavorite part of that show was how much better

905
00:45:11,476 --> 00:45:13,676
Speaker 3: he sounded at the end of the concert than he

906
00:45:13,716 --> 00:45:15,836
Speaker 3: sounded at the beginning. He was so warmed up by

907
00:45:15,836 --> 00:45:18,676
Speaker 3: the end. Oh, interesting, I didn't want it to stop.

908
00:45:18,716 --> 00:45:20,476
Speaker 3: He was just he really felt like his voice was

909
00:45:20,556 --> 00:45:22,596
Speaker 3: just opening up and opening up and opening up. And

910
00:45:22,596 --> 00:45:26,356
Speaker 3: then by the last couple of songs he had every shade.

911
00:45:27,916 --> 00:45:30,156
Speaker 1: We'll be back with the rest of Bruce's conversation with

912
00:45:30,196 --> 00:45:37,036
Speaker 1: Ifa A donovan after the break. We're back with the

913
00:45:37,036 --> 00:45:39,756
Speaker 1: rest of Bruce's conversation with ifa O'Donovan.

914
00:45:41,156 --> 00:45:43,396
Speaker 2: So, a couple songs I wanted to ask you particularly about.

915
00:45:43,676 --> 00:45:45,516
Speaker 2: There's a lot of great songs on Age of Apathy,

916
00:45:45,516 --> 00:45:47,276
Speaker 2: it's such a good album, but Elevators was one of

917
00:45:47,316 --> 00:45:50,836
Speaker 2: the songs that, for some reason I was really taken with.

918
00:45:50,916 --> 00:45:52,516
Speaker 2: Can you just talk a bit about that song?

919
00:45:52,636 --> 00:45:54,316
Speaker 3: Yeah, that song is one of my favorite songs on

920
00:45:54,356 --> 00:45:57,156
Speaker 3: Age of Apathy. Also, I remember starting to write that

921
00:45:57,236 --> 00:46:02,516
Speaker 3: song and just kind of having this movie playing in

922
00:46:02,516 --> 00:46:06,636
Speaker 3: my mind of me watching like a movie of myself

923
00:46:07,076 --> 00:46:09,756
Speaker 3: in the rear view mirror, like of my youth, sort

924
00:46:09,796 --> 00:46:12,796
Speaker 3: of my more wild days as a touring musician, and

925
00:46:13,716 --> 00:46:15,756
Speaker 3: just the concept of have I been here before? Like

926
00:46:15,916 --> 00:46:19,236
Speaker 3: waking up and looking out the window literally, and the

927
00:46:19,236 --> 00:46:21,156
Speaker 3: first line is I was looking out the window wondering, like,

928
00:46:21,156 --> 00:46:23,436
Speaker 3: you know, if I've been here before? That looks the same,

929
00:46:23,436 --> 00:46:25,436
Speaker 3: that looks the same, that looks the same. And how

930
00:46:25,476 --> 00:46:27,236
Speaker 3: when you are a musician and you live on the road,

931
00:46:27,276 --> 00:46:31,596
Speaker 3: you tend to be able to pinpoint events based on

932
00:46:31,876 --> 00:46:34,276
Speaker 3: the randommest things like who was I dating at the time,

933
00:46:34,436 --> 00:46:36,516
Speaker 3: or who was my bandmate dating at the time, or

934
00:46:36,796 --> 00:46:38,836
Speaker 3: all all these things that just end up being sort

935
00:46:38,876 --> 00:46:42,396
Speaker 3: of silly and trite, but really are coloring the fabric

936
00:46:42,436 --> 00:46:45,796
Speaker 3: of your life in this funny way. And that's kind

937
00:46:45,796 --> 00:46:46,716
Speaker 3: of where that song came from.

938
00:46:46,956 --> 00:46:49,396
Speaker 2: And you need that because every day you're just waking

939
00:46:49,476 --> 00:46:50,836
Speaker 2: up at a holiday.

940
00:46:50,436 --> 00:46:54,316
Speaker 3: And express every day is the same in this one way,

941
00:46:54,316 --> 00:46:56,756
Speaker 3: and it's so monotonous to get to get in the

942
00:46:56,836 --> 00:46:59,276
Speaker 3: van and to stop at the gas station and get

943
00:46:59,316 --> 00:47:00,956
Speaker 3: the same snack that you always get at the gas

944
00:47:00,956 --> 00:47:03,436
Speaker 3: station because you're sick of you know, for a while

945
00:47:03,436 --> 00:47:05,876
Speaker 3: it's smart food, and then you switch to some other

946
00:47:06,596 --> 00:47:08,276
Speaker 3: sort of healthy thing like oh, I'm going to eat

947
00:47:08,316 --> 00:47:11,236
Speaker 3: beef jerky this tour or something. But it's in field.

948
00:47:11,316 --> 00:47:13,636
Speaker 3: Musicians just had this. You have your routines that you

949
00:47:13,636 --> 00:47:16,036
Speaker 3: go through when you're on tour all the time, and

950
00:47:16,796 --> 00:47:20,316
Speaker 3: there's sort of no clear way to mark the time,

951
00:47:20,356 --> 00:47:21,676
Speaker 3: like when was I in this venue? And then you

952
00:47:21,676 --> 00:47:23,236
Speaker 3: see your name on the wall and you're like, what,

953
00:47:23,356 --> 00:47:26,716
Speaker 3: I don't even remember writing that, you know, it's really

954
00:47:26,756 --> 00:47:27,596
Speaker 3: it's very trippy.

955
00:47:27,956 --> 00:47:29,916
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was your beef Jerky tour.

956
00:47:29,996 --> 00:47:32,716
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, oh yeah, oh that was a tour

957
00:47:32,796 --> 00:47:35,316
Speaker 3: that like her boyfriend was there with us for like that,

958
00:47:35,356 --> 00:47:37,196
Speaker 3: and that was so awkward, like, you know, just just

959
00:47:37,236 --> 00:47:38,236
Speaker 3: weird memories like that.

960
00:47:38,276 --> 00:47:42,236
Speaker 2: Sure. Oh, so I want to ask you. We're now

961
00:47:42,316 --> 00:47:45,116
Speaker 2: up to your current album. I want to ask you

962
00:47:45,116 --> 00:47:48,236
Speaker 2: about Daughters. Yeah, tell me about that song.

963
00:47:49,156 --> 00:47:52,836
Speaker 3: That song was one of the first songs that I

964
00:47:52,876 --> 00:47:55,556
Speaker 3: think I wrote in its entirety four age of Apathy,

965
00:47:55,596 --> 00:47:56,876
Speaker 3: and I think I mentioned at the beginning of the

966
00:47:56,916 --> 00:48:00,236
Speaker 3: interview that I did have some of the lyrics intact

967
00:48:00,276 --> 00:48:03,756
Speaker 3: before I sent that one off to the arranger. I

968
00:48:03,796 --> 00:48:08,236
Speaker 3: was imagining or I was just sitting there thinking about,

969
00:48:08,636 --> 00:48:11,556
Speaker 3: you know who, who were these women who were the suffragists,

970
00:48:11,556 --> 00:48:14,836
Speaker 3: and what did they think we were going to be

971
00:48:14,836 --> 00:48:17,716
Speaker 3: saying about them? They did they know how important the

972
00:48:17,756 --> 00:48:21,596
Speaker 3: work they were doing was. And when I get to

973
00:48:21,596 --> 00:48:25,396
Speaker 3: the chorus, I'm singing, I say, all your enemies never

974
00:48:25,476 --> 00:48:27,396
Speaker 3: leave your side, and it's just sort of that idea

975
00:48:27,476 --> 00:48:29,956
Speaker 3: of you know, no matter even if you've even if

976
00:48:29,996 --> 00:48:32,636
Speaker 3: the fight has been one, there's still going to be

977
00:48:32,636 --> 00:48:35,996
Speaker 3: a shadow of your opponent next to you forever potentially.

978
00:48:36,556 --> 00:48:39,196
Speaker 3: But how do we overcome that? And how do we

979
00:48:39,316 --> 00:48:41,396
Speaker 3: how do we get past that? And my favorite part

980
00:48:41,436 --> 00:48:43,316
Speaker 3: of that song and that recording is the San Francisco

981
00:48:43,356 --> 00:48:47,476
Speaker 3: Girls chorus singing behind me on that chorus where I'm singing.

982
00:48:47,236 --> 00:48:49,436
Speaker 6: Oh, your enemies never leave your.

983
00:48:49,276 --> 00:48:52,516
Speaker 3: Side, they will always be their daughters. Dry your eyes,

984
00:48:52,676 --> 00:48:55,396
Speaker 3: and they're singing behind me saying kind of echoing me,

985
00:48:55,476 --> 00:49:00,156
Speaker 3: and it's this really sort of powerful physical thing. When

986
00:49:00,196 --> 00:49:01,836
Speaker 3: I listened to it, when I got their parts back,

987
00:49:02,036 --> 00:49:03,676
Speaker 3: I just that's exactly as I wanted to sound, and

988
00:49:03,676 --> 00:49:05,556
Speaker 3: I wanted to be me. And this does tie into

989
00:49:06,156 --> 00:49:08,196
Speaker 3: the song. We were just talking about elevators, talking to

990
00:49:08,236 --> 00:49:10,796
Speaker 3: your younger self, talking to the past version of you

991
00:49:10,796 --> 00:49:13,956
Speaker 3: were talking to your mother when she was a child,

992
00:49:14,036 --> 00:49:16,356
Speaker 3: or your grandmother when she was a child's and then

993
00:49:16,516 --> 00:49:19,516
Speaker 3: looking forward talking to the daughters of your daughters. It's

994
00:49:19,556 --> 00:49:22,156
Speaker 3: really just sort of the line keeps going m.

995
00:49:22,036 --> 00:49:26,476
Speaker 2: Hm because it had this theme about your enemies always

996
00:49:26,516 --> 00:49:30,116
Speaker 2: being with you. There was one line that really struck

997
00:49:30,116 --> 00:49:33,116
Speaker 2: me as strange, and that is the line about protected

998
00:49:33,156 --> 00:49:39,116
Speaker 2: and serene, rich women still honing their malevolent skills.

999
00:49:41,716 --> 00:49:44,556
Speaker 3: That part is about is about the people who were

1000
00:49:44,596 --> 00:49:48,076
Speaker 3: opposed to suffrage and often the people who and I

1001
00:49:48,116 --> 00:49:50,516
Speaker 3: feel like we still see this in today's political climate.

1002
00:49:51,276 --> 00:49:54,676
Speaker 3: It's often people with great privilege that are the most

1003
00:49:56,396 --> 00:49:59,596
Speaker 3: fearful of change because they're not the ones who are

1004
00:49:59,636 --> 00:50:03,276
Speaker 3: being negatively affected by the lack of progress.

1005
00:50:04,156 --> 00:50:07,156
Speaker 2: We're not going to turn this into debate, but the

1006
00:50:07,196 --> 00:50:11,036
Speaker 2: suffragette movement, and it's been criticized for this more recently,

1007
00:50:11,636 --> 00:50:17,996
Speaker 2: did rely on often very prosperous benefactors. Of course, I

1008
00:50:17,996 --> 00:50:22,756
Speaker 2: mean famously Alva Vanderbilt, who had changed her name by

1009
00:50:22,756 --> 00:50:25,436
Speaker 2: that point, but put a lot of her family money

1010
00:50:25,636 --> 00:50:30,156
Speaker 2: right and it it's it seemed like a strange note

1011
00:50:30,156 --> 00:50:33,436
Speaker 2: to hit because a lot of those women were regarded

1012
00:50:33,476 --> 00:50:36,116
Speaker 2: as privileged. They wouldn't have been able to do it without.

1013
00:50:35,756 --> 00:50:38,276
Speaker 3: It, right, No, you're you're you're you're not wrong. But

1014
00:50:38,316 --> 00:50:40,596
Speaker 3: I think that that that in that in that line,

1015
00:50:41,516 --> 00:50:43,876
Speaker 3: I was sort of talking about the people who who

1016
00:50:43,916 --> 00:50:47,876
Speaker 3: were nay, the antis, the people who were against it,

1017
00:50:47,916 --> 00:50:49,596
Speaker 3: who were you know, there were there were. It wasn't

1018
00:50:49,596 --> 00:50:52,716
Speaker 3: that all the rich people were pro No, no, I'm sorry, suffrage.

1019
00:50:52,716 --> 00:50:56,396
Speaker 3: So it was just one side of it growing bulging

1020
00:50:56,436 --> 00:50:56,956
Speaker 3: the treachery some.

1021
00:50:57,156 --> 00:51:00,516
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I may have been I didn't talk

1022
00:51:00,556 --> 00:51:02,436
Speaker 2: about this with my wife. I may have been channeling

1023
00:51:02,516 --> 00:51:04,716
Speaker 2: my wife a bit though, who sort of felt that

1024
00:51:04,756 --> 00:51:09,916
Speaker 2: in the last few years, being a certain kind of

1025
00:51:09,956 --> 00:51:16,236
Speaker 2: woman has not exactly insulated you from criticism. Yeah, and

1026
00:51:16,276 --> 00:51:19,276
Speaker 2: you got it with the why didn't you do well?

1027
00:51:19,636 --> 00:51:20,076
Speaker 3: Of course?

1028
00:51:21,156 --> 00:51:25,876
Speaker 2: And it almost seemed like everybody comes from some kind

1029
00:51:25,876 --> 00:51:26,436
Speaker 2: of privilege.

1030
00:51:26,436 --> 00:51:29,076
Speaker 3: Well not everybody does, not everybody, of course, but it

1031
00:51:29,116 --> 00:51:31,876
Speaker 3: is I mean, I think it's important to acknowledge and

1032
00:51:31,916 --> 00:51:35,076
Speaker 3: to be aware at least that's that's what I'm trying

1033
00:51:35,116 --> 00:51:36,996
Speaker 3: to do as a person in the world, to be

1034
00:51:36,996 --> 00:51:39,436
Speaker 3: aware of my own privilege and how of course I'm

1035
00:51:39,476 --> 00:51:41,476
Speaker 3: very privileged to be able to sing these songs and

1036
00:51:41,476 --> 00:51:43,756
Speaker 3: to write these songs. But that line I think I

1037
00:51:43,796 --> 00:51:46,556
Speaker 3: was trying to you know, later in the song, it

1038
00:51:46,636 --> 00:51:48,716
Speaker 3: kind of comes back like, you know, the women in

1039
00:51:48,756 --> 00:51:50,836
Speaker 3: the fields and countain houses. I'm really talking more about

1040
00:51:50,876 --> 00:51:53,196
Speaker 3: the common woman. As the song goes on, and the

1041
00:51:53,276 --> 00:51:55,916
Speaker 3: next and the next stands up after the chorus comes back,

1042
00:51:55,956 --> 00:51:57,436
Speaker 3: and you know, the women in the shops and in

1043
00:51:57,476 --> 00:52:00,076
Speaker 3: the farms, they're all around us. They got babies crying

1044
00:52:00,076 --> 00:52:02,756
Speaker 3: at their breasts. You know, the veins of these women

1045
00:52:02,796 --> 00:52:04,716
Speaker 3: are not filled with milk and water. These are mothers

1046
00:52:04,716 --> 00:52:07,036
Speaker 3: of bold American daughters. Just really trying to make it

1047
00:52:07,116 --> 00:52:11,076
Speaker 3: more of a sort of an everyman, every woman type thing,

1048
00:52:11,116 --> 00:52:13,356
Speaker 3: if you will. That that was kind of the maybe

1049
00:52:13,396 --> 00:52:14,836
Speaker 3: I it was a missedtep, but.

1050
00:52:14,916 --> 00:52:16,476
Speaker 2: I think, no, no, no, no, I don't You're not

1051
00:52:16,556 --> 00:52:18,676
Speaker 2: to You're not to sit there saying maybe I'm not

1052
00:52:18,716 --> 00:52:21,516
Speaker 2: a song right, And that is.

1053
00:52:21,476 --> 00:52:23,396
Speaker 3: Why, that is how I was trying to sort of

1054
00:52:23,436 --> 00:52:25,236
Speaker 3: tie it into. These women are sort of sitting in

1055
00:52:25,276 --> 00:52:30,916
Speaker 3: their gilded homes, not out there. You know, even if

1056
00:52:30,956 --> 00:52:33,876
Speaker 3: they were, you know, going to vote yes, which they

1057
00:52:33,876 --> 00:52:37,236
Speaker 3: couldn't vote obviously, but even if they were pro suffrage,

1058
00:52:38,036 --> 00:52:40,556
Speaker 3: it wasn't necessarily affecting them in the same way that

1059
00:52:40,596 --> 00:52:43,476
Speaker 3: it was affecting the women who you know in the Frontier.

1060
00:52:44,596 --> 00:52:47,076
Speaker 2: And by the way, that line that the mothers of

1061
00:52:47,076 --> 00:52:50,596
Speaker 2: bold American daughters is just such a great, great line.

1062
00:52:50,596 --> 00:52:52,236
Speaker 3: And I love singing that song. I love singing that

1063
00:52:52,276 --> 00:52:52,716
Speaker 3: song live.

1064
00:52:53,196 --> 00:52:55,796
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's got such a kind of The other

1065
00:52:55,836 --> 00:52:57,516
Speaker 2: one I wanted to ask you about was because I

1066
00:52:57,516 --> 00:52:59,836
Speaker 2: think it's one of the You've got a lot of beautiful,

1067
00:52:59,956 --> 00:53:02,956
Speaker 2: very long you write very long melodies, by the way.

1068
00:53:03,236 --> 00:53:05,116
Speaker 2: That's but that's a good thing, right.

1069
00:53:05,076 --> 00:53:06,876
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it is what it is. Some

1070
00:53:07,236 --> 00:53:08,796
Speaker 3: people are like, yeah, I think I read a review

1071
00:53:08,796 --> 00:53:11,436
Speaker 3: once a record of mine, and they were like, her melodies,

1072
00:53:11,636 --> 00:53:13,676
Speaker 3: they're not exactly the kind that you can sing along with.

1073
00:53:13,756 --> 00:53:16,036
Speaker 3: She sort of meanders from one I do to the next.

1074
00:53:16,876 --> 00:53:18,556
Speaker 2: And it was it was it was I think the

1075
00:53:18,596 --> 00:53:20,116
Speaker 2: answer to that is don't recretic.

1076
00:53:20,396 --> 00:53:22,436
Speaker 3: No, and I think it was. It was still a positive,

1077
00:53:22,516 --> 00:53:24,756
Speaker 3: It ultimately was positive, but it it kind of cracked

1078
00:53:24,756 --> 00:53:26,596
Speaker 3: me up because I'm like, yes, that that is exactly

1079
00:53:26,596 --> 00:53:27,236
Speaker 3: what I'm doing.

1080
00:53:27,876 --> 00:53:30,796
Speaker 2: Isn't that what all melody? Yes do? Yeah, but I

1081
00:53:30,796 --> 00:53:34,916
Speaker 2: think one of your loveliest is uh, America, Calm on this,

1082
00:53:35,036 --> 00:53:37,676
Speaker 2: thank you so much on that record. Tell me about

1083
00:53:37,676 --> 00:53:38,436
Speaker 2: writing that one.

1084
00:53:38,956 --> 00:53:40,796
Speaker 3: That one I think I really just got in my

1085
00:53:40,876 --> 00:53:44,916
Speaker 3: head is kind of this march of like dude like that,

1086
00:53:44,916 --> 00:53:47,956
Speaker 3: that real ascending melody to kind of and all the

1087
00:53:48,076 --> 00:53:50,476
Speaker 3: octave jumps. It's very hard melody to sing.

1088
00:53:50,236 --> 00:53:51,436
Speaker 2: Live it is. There's big jumps.

1089
00:53:52,356 --> 00:53:56,276
Speaker 3: But it's funny that I had that melody before I

1090
00:53:56,316 --> 00:53:59,116
Speaker 3: had the phrase, because I feel like that it's it's

1091
00:53:59,676 --> 00:54:01,236
Speaker 3: some like F I think is what it is. And

1092
00:54:01,276 --> 00:54:05,156
Speaker 3: I play this one thing that like I tuned my

1093
00:54:05,196 --> 00:54:07,156
Speaker 3: low string up to an F on this one, it's like,

1094
00:54:07,476 --> 00:54:07,916
Speaker 3: what is it?

1095
00:54:08,036 --> 00:54:12,196
Speaker 6: Democracy up?

1096
00:54:12,196 --> 00:54:14,516
Speaker 3: It's really low and then really high at the same time,

1097
00:54:15,196 --> 00:54:16,756
Speaker 3: and it's very jumpy and the.

1098
00:54:16,756 --> 00:54:20,396
Speaker 2: Way I've never seen it, I guess it's like a

1099
00:54:20,476 --> 00:54:22,076
Speaker 2: drop D tuning, but it's an F tuning.

1100
00:54:22,196 --> 00:54:23,876
Speaker 3: Do I actually write a lot of songs in that tuning?

1101
00:54:23,996 --> 00:54:24,636
Speaker 2: Is that common?

1102
00:54:25,276 --> 00:54:27,676
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know anybody else who does it,

1103
00:54:27,716 --> 00:54:29,556
Speaker 3: but I've never heard of it. I can't say that

1104
00:54:29,596 --> 00:54:31,756
Speaker 3: I invented it, but I don't know anybody else who

1105
00:54:31,796 --> 00:54:32,076
Speaker 3: does it.

1106
00:54:32,156 --> 00:54:33,716
Speaker 2: Well, then I think you can say you invented it.

1107
00:54:33,716 --> 00:54:34,596
Speaker 2: I would patent it.

1108
00:54:34,996 --> 00:54:36,196
Speaker 3: I'm sure Jony's tried it.

1109
00:54:37,116 --> 00:54:38,596
Speaker 2: She's tried it all. Are you a fan by the

1110
00:54:38,636 --> 00:54:39,516
Speaker 2: way of Johnny.

1111
00:54:39,516 --> 00:54:41,356
Speaker 3: Come on, huge fan, biggest fan.

1112
00:54:41,996 --> 00:54:44,836
Speaker 2: Okay, I would say some of your songs I can

1113
00:54:44,876 --> 00:54:47,756
Speaker 2: hear that influence a little bit. Elevators actually is a song.

1114
00:54:47,796 --> 00:54:48,516
Speaker 2: I can hear a bit of that.

1115
00:54:49,036 --> 00:54:51,556
Speaker 3: I'm a very big Johnny Mitchell fan. I love I

1116
00:54:51,596 --> 00:54:55,756
Speaker 3: love all of her music and her melodies and her

1117
00:54:56,636 --> 00:55:00,076
Speaker 3: her writing is just I think unparalleled.

1118
00:55:00,076 --> 00:55:02,956
Speaker 2: It's funny because in the interviews I've read with you, you

1119
00:55:02,556 --> 00:55:03,796
Speaker 2: don't mention Jhonny Mitchell.

1120
00:55:04,076 --> 00:55:06,596
Speaker 3: I feel like I do when I talk about my influences.

1121
00:55:06,636 --> 00:55:08,636
Speaker 3: I feel like I would say Johnny Mitchell and Paul

1122
00:55:08,636 --> 00:55:10,236
Speaker 3: Simon are of the two people who I would say

1123
00:55:10,236 --> 00:55:13,316
Speaker 3: are my most old school, biggest influences.

1124
00:55:14,276 --> 00:55:16,076
Speaker 2: Okay, those are good influences to have.

1125
00:55:16,196 --> 00:55:19,676
Speaker 3: And I did a recording of term Meanama Radio And

1126
00:55:19,676 --> 00:55:21,796
Speaker 3: actually one of my favorite Live from Here performances was

1127
00:55:21,876 --> 00:55:24,236
Speaker 3: Coyote that I got to do at Town Hall with

1128
00:55:25,036 --> 00:55:26,276
Speaker 3: Chris and the Live from Here band.

1129
00:55:26,476 --> 00:55:29,196
Speaker 2: What's that Like to That's a really hard song.

1130
00:55:29,596 --> 00:55:31,956
Speaker 3: So it was so fun. That was really one of

1131
00:55:31,956 --> 00:55:33,596
Speaker 3: my top musical moments. Of my life.

1132
00:55:34,436 --> 00:55:38,836
Speaker 2: There's another YouTube clip then you should look at, which

1133
00:55:38,916 --> 00:55:42,116
Speaker 2: is because I'm Canadian, of course, my number one is

1134
00:55:42,156 --> 00:55:46,356
Speaker 2: Gordon Lightfoot Love Gordon Lightfoot. Gordon Lightfoot had this house

1135
00:55:46,396 --> 00:55:49,316
Speaker 2: in Toronto. He was famous for having these parties that

1136
00:55:49,356 --> 00:55:51,796
Speaker 2: nobody remembered later. But if you look it up, there's

1137
00:55:52,196 --> 00:55:55,156
Speaker 2: a party at his house and I think he's there,

1138
00:55:55,196 --> 00:55:58,756
Speaker 2: and Dylan's there, and then she starts playing an early

1139
00:55:58,876 --> 00:56:00,036
Speaker 2: version of Coyote.

1140
00:56:00,436 --> 00:56:02,836
Speaker 3: I feel like I've seen this clip on Instagram or something.

1141
00:56:02,916 --> 00:56:04,596
Speaker 2: Yeah, and at some point they're looking at each other

1142
00:56:04,596 --> 00:56:07,436
Speaker 2: and you realize, you guys are kind of out of

1143
00:56:07,436 --> 00:56:09,196
Speaker 2: your depth here, like they're trying to play along and

1144
00:56:09,236 --> 00:56:11,396
Speaker 2: they're like, we can't tell what she's doing.

1145
00:56:12,676 --> 00:56:13,956
Speaker 3: They should have gone to music school.

1146
00:56:14,596 --> 00:56:16,236
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what to help because I think her

1147
00:56:16,236 --> 00:56:18,676
Speaker 2: stuff is so idiot and that song is very idios

1148
00:56:18,676 --> 00:56:20,116
Speaker 2: And yeah.

1149
00:56:19,996 --> 00:56:21,636
Speaker 3: I wasn't playing guitar. I was just singing when I

1150
00:56:21,636 --> 00:56:21,876
Speaker 3: did it.

1151
00:56:23,756 --> 00:56:25,316
Speaker 2: I didn't even know what her tuning was, right, I.

1152
00:56:25,316 --> 00:56:27,556
Speaker 3: Think an open sea tuning, I'm pretty sure.

1153
00:56:27,756 --> 00:56:30,276
Speaker 2: Okay, but it's got a very Yeah, it's got its

1154
00:56:30,276 --> 00:56:34,316
Speaker 2: own thing, so cool. Yeah, you should look it up

1155
00:56:34,356 --> 00:56:36,796
Speaker 2: if you haven't seen it because because there is kind

1156
00:56:36,796 --> 00:56:39,836
Speaker 2: of a nice moment where they're like, oh man, we're screwed.

1157
00:56:41,236 --> 00:56:43,636
Speaker 2: We got nothing, we got nothing. Maybe we get the

1158
00:56:43,636 --> 00:56:44,196
Speaker 2: bass note.

1159
00:56:44,356 --> 00:56:46,796
Speaker 3: Maybe not too many notes.

1160
00:56:46,636 --> 00:56:52,236
Speaker 2: Too many notes, too complicated, you know, in this album,

1161
00:56:52,356 --> 00:56:54,516
Speaker 2: because the album is it's not, as I said, it

1162
00:56:54,516 --> 00:56:56,476
Speaker 2: feels like a theater piece. It feels very much of

1163
00:56:56,516 --> 00:57:01,076
Speaker 2: a piece. Then it takes this shift this album, and

1164
00:57:01,716 --> 00:57:04,476
Speaker 2: I'm sure it was a very deliberate shift, but the

1165
00:57:04,556 --> 00:57:08,316
Speaker 2: last two songs go in a completely different direction totally. Yeah,

1166
00:57:08,476 --> 00:57:10,436
Speaker 2: starting with over the line.

1167
00:57:10,356 --> 00:57:12,436
Speaker 3: Over the finish line, Yeah, oh, over the.

1168
00:57:12,356 --> 00:57:16,236
Speaker 2: Finish line, Pardon Me, which has just a very different mood,

1169
00:57:16,356 --> 00:57:18,276
Speaker 2: very different lyrics. Do you want to talk about that?

1170
00:57:18,716 --> 00:57:24,316
Speaker 3: Yeah? Those the way this album ends. I think this

1171
00:57:24,516 --> 00:57:30,916
Speaker 3: was unexpected, and maybe I wasn't quite sure, to be honest.

1172
00:57:31,436 --> 00:57:33,076
Speaker 3: From the beginning, I was sort of like, how am

1173
00:57:33,116 --> 00:57:36,156
Speaker 3: I going to release this music? What am I trying

1174
00:57:36,196 --> 00:57:38,636
Speaker 3: to say with this as an album? Because usually you

1175
00:57:38,636 --> 00:57:41,036
Speaker 3: put out an album and it's like neat, it's you know,

1176
00:57:41,076 --> 00:57:43,196
Speaker 3: ten or twelve songs, and you can play each song

1177
00:57:43,196 --> 00:57:45,756
Speaker 3: and there's little snippets and some of them are happy

1178
00:57:45,756 --> 00:57:47,196
Speaker 3: and some of them are sad. And some of them

1179
00:57:47,236 --> 00:57:48,676
Speaker 3: are slow and some of them are fast, and you have,

1180
00:57:48,756 --> 00:57:52,156
Speaker 3: you know, an album's worth of material. This record was

1181
00:57:52,196 --> 00:57:56,276
Speaker 3: just a totally different beast. So the last two songs,

1182
00:57:56,916 --> 00:57:59,116
Speaker 3: I felt that I had to sort of finish my thought.

1183
00:57:59,156 --> 00:58:02,756
Speaker 3: I had to kind of come from the past into

1184
00:58:02,796 --> 00:58:05,716
Speaker 3: the present, but then take a slight detour to a

1185
00:58:05,756 --> 00:58:07,716
Speaker 3: different part of the past. It's almost like the sort

1186
00:58:07,716 --> 00:58:11,636
Speaker 3: of time travel thing that I'm doing over the finish

1187
00:58:11,716 --> 00:58:13,396
Speaker 3: line is the second to last song on the album,

1188
00:58:13,436 --> 00:58:15,956
Speaker 3: and it's a song that I'm singing from really the

1189
00:58:16,476 --> 00:58:19,596
Speaker 3: only song where it's entirely from my perspective, you know,

1190
00:58:19,756 --> 00:58:26,876
Speaker 3: me Ifodnevan twenty first century Woman, Mother Citizen, you know,

1191
00:58:27,236 --> 00:58:29,996
Speaker 3: artists looking back at what I've just said, you know,

1192
00:58:30,076 --> 00:58:32,636
Speaker 3: I think that there's a lot of sort of referencing

1193
00:58:32,876 --> 00:58:35,156
Speaker 3: of the previous songs that you've just heard. When you

1194
00:58:35,156 --> 00:58:36,716
Speaker 3: get to that point in the album, I'm kind of

1195
00:58:36,716 --> 00:58:40,196
Speaker 3: talking back to Carrie Chapman Katt almost and talking about

1196
00:58:40,236 --> 00:58:43,196
Speaker 3: the current state of affairs and about how I feel

1197
00:58:43,276 --> 00:58:45,756
Speaker 3: that it's almost kind of ties into Age of Apathy

1198
00:58:45,756 --> 00:58:48,076
Speaker 3: in that way that we're sort of not connecting in

1199
00:58:48,116 --> 00:58:51,196
Speaker 3: the same way, and what can we do about it,

1200
00:58:51,236 --> 00:58:53,236
Speaker 3: and I don't think I really come up with an

1201
00:58:53,236 --> 00:58:55,676
Speaker 3: answer in the song. It's more just a you know,

1202
00:58:55,756 --> 00:58:57,596
Speaker 3: if I could, if I could change in mind, whose

1203
00:58:57,636 --> 00:58:59,476
Speaker 3: mind would I want to change? If I could make

1204
00:58:59,556 --> 00:59:01,916
Speaker 3: something that would get us over the finish line, and

1205
00:59:02,036 --> 00:59:04,356
Speaker 3: then it's almost like I throw out my shoulders and say,

1206
00:59:04,396 --> 00:59:07,516
Speaker 3: we're living in hard times. And it's an intense song

1207
00:59:07,556 --> 00:59:11,356
Speaker 3: to sing, and Aus Mitchell saying harmony on it so beautifully,

1208
00:59:11,396 --> 00:59:13,476
Speaker 3: and I feel like really helped me kind of get

1209
00:59:13,516 --> 00:59:16,996
Speaker 3: the the feeling across the urgency that I was sort

1210
00:59:17,036 --> 00:59:19,196
Speaker 3: of talking about before, just what what can we do

1211
00:59:19,276 --> 00:59:20,716
Speaker 3: and how do we do it? And at the end

1212
00:59:20,756 --> 00:59:24,276
Speaker 3: of that song, I quote Carrie Chapman Kat and I sing,

1213
00:59:24,356 --> 00:59:26,596
Speaker 3: you know what is this democracy for which the world

1214
00:59:26,636 --> 00:59:28,916
Speaker 3: is battling? The song that I just haught saying that

1215
00:59:28,956 --> 00:59:31,556
Speaker 3: long line in the previous song, And then you know,

1216
00:59:31,596 --> 00:59:34,196
Speaker 3: i'd ask Carrie, I feel I feel that we might

1217
00:59:34,196 --> 00:59:36,116
Speaker 3: have made our beds here, like have we? And it's

1218
00:59:36,116 --> 00:59:37,076
Speaker 3: it's really just a question.

1219
00:59:37,836 --> 00:59:40,676
Speaker 2: It's a very uh it's a down song.

1220
00:59:40,796 --> 00:59:42,796
Speaker 3: It's a down sound. There's nothing happy about it.

1221
00:59:42,836 --> 00:59:45,796
Speaker 2: And that what you were feeling even after you after

1222
00:59:45,836 --> 00:59:46,676
Speaker 2: you wrote the rest of.

1223
00:59:46,596 --> 00:59:47,636
Speaker 6: These songs, it really is.

1224
00:59:47,676 --> 00:59:51,116
Speaker 3: And it's funny because you know the question America Come,

1225
00:59:51,156 --> 00:59:53,196
Speaker 3: the song that comes right before this where it really

1226
00:59:53,316 --> 00:59:55,476
Speaker 3: ends with me and the girls and the brass and

1227
00:59:55,516 --> 00:59:57,916
Speaker 3: we're singing, you know, it's it's almost like a chant,

1228
00:59:57,996 --> 01:00:01,276
Speaker 3: like holding her torch hi like America America. And then

1229
01:00:01,956 --> 01:00:03,756
Speaker 3: I think it's kind of the whiplash that that we

1230
01:00:04,356 --> 01:00:06,316
Speaker 3: that I certainly have felt over the last you know,

1231
01:00:06,396 --> 01:00:10,236
Speaker 3: eight years of existing and this this time, this crazy time,

1232
01:00:10,276 --> 01:00:12,436
Speaker 3: and I sang about it in Age of Apathy, but

1233
01:00:12,756 --> 01:00:15,076
Speaker 3: the whiplash of kind of going back and forth between

1234
01:00:15,076 --> 01:00:20,036
Speaker 3: feeling really hopeful and just really dejected and wondering how

1235
01:00:20,076 --> 01:00:21,516
Speaker 3: we can do about it and what is our role?

1236
01:00:21,596 --> 01:00:24,516
Speaker 3: What is the role of the artist. And throughout this.

1237
01:00:24,876 --> 01:00:29,316
Speaker 2: It reminds me of American tune the Paul Simon.

1238
01:00:29,476 --> 01:00:31,316
Speaker 3: One of the great songs, right.

1239
01:00:31,196 --> 01:00:33,796
Speaker 2: But it's more downbeat.

1240
01:00:34,076 --> 01:00:36,076
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean American tune at least has that like

1241
01:00:36,196 --> 01:00:37,836
Speaker 3: really soaring bridge.

1242
01:00:39,116 --> 01:00:40,396
Speaker 2: You cut out the soaring.

1243
01:00:40,116 --> 01:00:41,796
Speaker 3: Bridge, no story bridge in this one.

1244
01:00:42,276 --> 01:00:44,716
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because the end you are addressing this

1245
01:00:44,836 --> 01:00:50,516
Speaker 2: to Carrie Chapman Kat the album is really springs from

1246
01:00:50,556 --> 01:00:54,436
Speaker 2: and I was particularly in the combination with America come.

1247
01:00:55,676 --> 01:00:57,356
Speaker 2: By the time I got to the end of that song,

1248
01:00:57,396 --> 01:00:59,996
Speaker 2: I was thinking, I was wondering, what do you think

1249
01:01:00,636 --> 01:01:02,236
Speaker 2: when you talk about we're living in a hard time?

1250
01:01:02,476 --> 01:01:04,916
Speaker 2: What do you think? What do you think? Her answer

1251
01:01:04,956 --> 01:01:05,676
Speaker 2: to you would.

1252
01:01:05,436 --> 01:01:07,116
Speaker 3: Be, well, I think that the crazy thing is. And

1253
01:01:07,516 --> 01:01:09,796
Speaker 3: I read a lot of historical fiction, you know, just

1254
01:01:10,476 --> 01:01:15,156
Speaker 3: looking gosh, hard times have are always hard. Times are

1255
01:01:15,196 --> 01:01:20,356
Speaker 3: always crazy when you think about I read recently, I

1256
01:01:20,356 --> 01:01:24,116
Speaker 3: read Libra by Don DeLillo, great book, you know, Lee, Harvey, Oswald, Kennedy,

1257
01:01:24,156 --> 01:01:29,436
Speaker 3: the whole that whole time period was so crazy, like

1258
01:01:29,436 --> 01:01:31,356
Speaker 3: that that was so crazy. I feel like it's crazy now,

1259
01:01:31,356 --> 01:01:32,996
Speaker 3: but it's crazy in a different way. And everybody always

1260
01:01:33,036 --> 01:01:34,596
Speaker 3: thinks that what they're going through was like the crazy

1261
01:01:34,716 --> 01:01:36,916
Speaker 3: is like shit's crazy. Times are so hard, times are

1262
01:01:36,956 --> 01:01:39,516
Speaker 3: so hard. Technology this, you know, But if it wasn't technology,

1263
01:01:39,556 --> 01:01:41,836
Speaker 3: it was TV, or it was the Cubans, or it

1264
01:01:41,876 --> 01:01:47,356
Speaker 3: was whatever, whatever the fear DuJour is. And I think

1265
01:01:47,356 --> 01:01:50,196
Speaker 3: that that's kind of what made me want to program

1266
01:01:50,196 --> 01:01:52,836
Speaker 3: the record this way in After that song, it goes

1267
01:01:52,836 --> 01:01:56,236
Speaker 3: into the lonesome Death of Hettie Carol, which is living

1268
01:01:56,236 --> 01:01:58,876
Speaker 3: in hard times, you know, one hundred percent living in

1269
01:01:58,916 --> 01:02:02,036
Speaker 3: hard times, that those times were horrible for Hettie Carroll

1270
01:02:02,076 --> 01:02:03,356
Speaker 3: and for anybody in her situation.

1271
01:02:03,836 --> 01:02:06,676
Speaker 2: And was that a song you'd we're talking about the

1272
01:02:06,676 --> 01:02:08,996
Speaker 2: Bob Dylan's song, of course? Is that a song you

1273
01:02:09,236 --> 01:02:09,916
Speaker 2: performed before?

1274
01:02:09,996 --> 01:02:12,156
Speaker 3: I performed it live a few times with orchestra, with

1275
01:02:12,236 --> 01:02:12,796
Speaker 3: full orchestra.

1276
01:02:14,076 --> 01:02:16,036
Speaker 2: Because it does end on a very.

1277
01:02:15,996 --> 01:02:17,956
Speaker 3: It ends in a very very bad note.

1278
01:02:18,436 --> 01:02:20,236
Speaker 2: No, but I don't mean the song itself, but it

1279
01:02:20,316 --> 01:02:22,836
Speaker 2: just ends the album on a strange it does.

1280
01:02:23,116 --> 01:02:23,996
Speaker 3: No, it does.

1281
01:02:24,116 --> 01:02:26,116
Speaker 2: And what's always interesting to me about that song is,

1282
01:02:27,156 --> 01:02:29,676
Speaker 2: you know he took the melody from another folks song.

1283
01:02:29,876 --> 01:02:31,836
Speaker 2: I think an Irish folk song probably.

1284
01:02:32,516 --> 01:02:34,076
Speaker 3: I can't remember what the name of it is, but you're.

1285
01:02:35,276 --> 01:02:40,076
Speaker 2: Mary Hamilton, right. But I think a lot of people

1286
01:02:40,236 --> 01:02:42,996
Speaker 2: in casually hearing that song thinks it's about think it's

1287
01:02:43,036 --> 01:02:45,316
Speaker 2: about something that happened long ago. It actually happened in

1288
01:02:45,356 --> 01:02:48,516
Speaker 2: the sixties, nineteen sixty three she was killed, right, But

1289
01:02:48,556 --> 01:02:51,396
Speaker 2: he makes it seem as though it's like something from

1290
01:02:51,676 --> 01:02:53,396
Speaker 2: old Baltimore exactly.

1291
01:02:53,436 --> 01:02:56,196
Speaker 3: But no, it's very recent, right, And I think that

1292
01:02:56,196 --> 01:02:59,596
Speaker 3: that I really thought long, hard about it. If I

1293
01:02:59,596 --> 01:03:01,036
Speaker 3: wanted to put that song on the record at all,

1294
01:03:01,116 --> 01:03:03,076
Speaker 3: if I wanted it to just read these neat eight songs,

1295
01:03:03,116 --> 01:03:05,036
Speaker 3: and I think of it almost as a coda to

1296
01:03:05,116 --> 01:03:07,876
Speaker 3: the album. It's almost like the album does you know,

1297
01:03:08,636 --> 01:03:11,196
Speaker 3: psychic the end after over the finish line, and then

1298
01:03:11,276 --> 01:03:13,956
Speaker 3: you kind of go into this sort of dreamscape of

1299
01:03:14,436 --> 01:03:18,836
Speaker 3: just one more thing, just one more thing. And that arrangement.

1300
01:03:18,916 --> 01:03:21,676
Speaker 3: I find it so compelling. My friend Gabriel Kahane did

1301
01:03:21,676 --> 01:03:26,996
Speaker 3: that orchestral arrangement and it's very stark. It starts with,

1302
01:03:27,156 --> 01:03:30,756
Speaker 3: you know, just me singing the opening stanza. After of course,

1303
01:03:30,796 --> 01:03:33,796
Speaker 3: the battle hum of the Republic and the orchestra comes

1304
01:03:33,796 --> 01:03:36,396
Speaker 3: in and it turns into this kind of wild there's

1305
01:03:36,436 --> 01:03:39,356
Speaker 3: like a Viennese waltz section that he puts in and

1306
01:03:39,396 --> 01:03:42,276
Speaker 3: then but it does end, you know with now you know,

1307
01:03:43,236 --> 01:03:45,636
Speaker 3: bury your face deep in the rag. Now is the

1308
01:03:45,636 --> 01:03:46,516
Speaker 3: time period of years.

1309
01:03:47,276 --> 01:03:49,396
Speaker 2: It reminds me a little. I'm just thinking of this

1310
01:03:49,476 --> 01:03:54,356
Speaker 2: now of the Falkner book that has the Bear Go

1311
01:03:54,436 --> 01:03:55,556
Speaker 2: Down Moses.

1312
01:03:55,836 --> 01:03:57,756
Speaker 3: One of the few Falkner books I haven't read.

1313
01:03:58,116 --> 01:04:00,636
Speaker 2: Well, you should because it ends well, you know, it

1314
01:04:00,636 --> 01:04:02,636
Speaker 2: has the Bear, which is that famous short story which

1315
01:04:02,716 --> 01:04:06,996
Speaker 2: is indecipherable okay, but it ends with a very contemporary

1316
01:04:07,036 --> 01:04:10,836
Speaker 2: scene in an American police station and a mother's there

1317
01:04:10,956 --> 01:04:13,556
Speaker 2: and her son's been arrested. It has that same kind

1318
01:04:13,556 --> 01:04:15,956
Speaker 2: of feeling. You should read it. It's on the Broken

1319
01:04:15,996 --> 01:04:16,836
Speaker 2: Record reading list.

1320
01:04:17,076 --> 01:04:18,956
Speaker 3: Great. I mean, I'm a huge Faulkner fan, but I

1321
01:04:18,996 --> 01:04:21,796
Speaker 3: really I guess, like you know, Absolute Masalem Gazila, Dying

1322
01:04:22,196 --> 01:04:22,876
Speaker 3: Sound and Fury.

1323
01:04:23,476 --> 01:04:25,556
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll try this one.

1324
01:04:25,556 --> 01:04:25,796
Speaker 3: Okay.

1325
01:04:26,036 --> 01:04:29,716
Speaker 2: The short stories, but they're they're connected, right, and it's.

1326
01:04:29,636 --> 01:04:31,276
Speaker 3: Well, I'm excited. I'll go to the books around the wheel.

1327
01:04:31,316 --> 01:04:33,796
Speaker 2: They're kind of brilliant. Do you want to play another song?

1328
01:04:33,916 --> 01:04:34,116
Speaker 3: Share?

1329
01:04:34,276 --> 01:04:34,836
Speaker 2: Take us out?

1330
01:04:34,916 --> 01:04:36,516
Speaker 3: What do you want? You want elevators or do you

1331
01:04:36,556 --> 01:04:37,156
Speaker 3: want a new song?

1332
01:04:37,356 --> 01:04:37,836
Speaker 11: Uh?

1333
01:04:37,916 --> 01:04:40,076
Speaker 2: You should play whatever song you think is gonna is

1334
01:04:40,076 --> 01:04:42,516
Speaker 2: going to really move product? What would that be?

1335
01:04:42,796 --> 01:04:44,636
Speaker 3: Oh cares about products? But now I kind of want

1336
01:04:44,636 --> 01:04:46,196
Speaker 3: to play Elevators because I haven't played it so long.

1337
01:04:46,236 --> 01:04:48,996
Speaker 3: And it's like fine, right, okay, okay, great?

1338
01:04:54,836 --> 01:04:59,636
Speaker 7: Looking up and do it feels like a shady patch

1339
01:04:59,676 --> 01:05:04,236
Speaker 7: of clean hand the big bookstore, run out of the

1340
01:05:04,276 --> 01:05:04,716
Speaker 7: corn and.

1341
01:05:04,756 --> 01:05:08,596
Speaker 6: Then passed the swinging back in the back of the cutlass.

1342
01:05:09,276 --> 01:05:14,436
Speaker 6: A man in America Merica.

1343
01:05:15,516 --> 01:05:20,636
Speaker 4: I've spun out my trying to rum wells in America,

1344
01:05:21,636 --> 01:05:35,636
Speaker 4: I swear so running for the back door, a fine

1345
01:05:35,836 --> 01:05:38,996
Speaker 4: like bread crawls down the country road, and.

1346
01:05:38,956 --> 01:05:41,676
Speaker 5: The only thing the matter was Latin.

1347
01:05:42,076 --> 01:05:46,036
Speaker 6: My Lord had an excellent station. I stopped for.

1348
01:05:46,116 --> 01:05:49,156
Speaker 4: A drink and I washed the memories down the dirty

1349
01:05:49,196 --> 01:05:55,556
Speaker 4: bedroom sake in Amica America, I'm.

1350
01:05:55,476 --> 01:05:58,036
Speaker 6: Sculling out my hair trying to remember.

1351
01:05:57,716 --> 01:06:12,116
Speaker 4: Wellmost in Ammica, running for the back door. Hello, its

1352
01:06:12,916 --> 01:06:21,356
Speaker 4: old songs, empty bottles, so long after me nights when

1353
01:06:21,396 --> 01:06:25,956
Speaker 4: I was young, the ice smelt it and gets a long.

1354
01:06:27,316 --> 01:06:36,196
Speaker 12: Hello spoken the last nothing less.

1355
01:06:39,676 --> 01:06:42,876
Speaker 4: I finally figured out that everything was lost, so I

1356
01:06:43,036 --> 01:06:46,476
Speaker 4: climbed in my legon and I started colts.

1357
01:06:47,236 --> 01:06:50,596
Speaker 5: But I don't be for every added up to the lake.

1358
01:06:51,716 --> 01:06:53,476
Speaker 5: Where is what's good here?

1359
01:06:53,516 --> 01:06:58,756
Speaker 6: And a wondowing gonna make of America America?

1360
01:06:59,476 --> 01:07:05,156
Speaker 4: I was brown up mayor trying to the wirls in America.

1361
01:07:05,876 --> 01:07:10,316
Speaker 6: I swear a s one for all the bed.

1362
01:07:20,436 --> 01:07:32,716
Speaker 11: Running, running, run fun and that old songs anti battle

1363
01:07:33,156 --> 01:07:34,036
Speaker 11: so long.

1364
01:07:35,956 --> 01:07:41,076
Speaker 9: That to mad nights, when now was he gone.

1365
01:07:40,076 --> 01:07:52,636
Speaker 12: I smelt it on my time, Hello spoken glass nothing, Hello,

1366
01:08:06,396 --> 01:08:06,716
Speaker 12: Thanks so.

1367
01:08:06,716 --> 01:08:08,996
Speaker 1: Much Sef for coming by to talk about her project

1368
01:08:09,316 --> 01:08:13,556
Speaker 1: My Friends and for performing some songs, and again, congratulations

1369
01:08:13,676 --> 01:08:16,876
Speaker 1: on the Grammy nominations. Best of luck to you. You

1370
01:08:16,916 --> 01:08:19,276
Speaker 1: can hear all of our favorite Efo Donovan songs on

1371
01:08:19,316 --> 01:08:22,316
Speaker 1: a playlist at broken record podcast dot com or in

1372
01:08:22,356 --> 01:08:25,996
Speaker 1: the episode description for this episode, and be sure to

1373
01:08:25,996 --> 01:08:29,236
Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You

1374
01:08:29,276 --> 01:08:32,676
Speaker 1: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record

1375
01:08:32,716 --> 01:08:35,436
Speaker 1: is produced by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric

1376
01:08:35,476 --> 01:08:39,836
Speaker 1: Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollinay. Broken

1377
01:08:39,876 --> 01:08:43,236
Speaker 1: Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love

1378
01:08:43,276 --> 01:08:47,396
Speaker 1: this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.

1379
01:08:47,956 --> 01:08:51,276
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content

1380
01:08:51,356 --> 01:08:53,996
Speaker 1: and ad free listening for four ninety nine a month.

1381
01:08:54,756 --> 01:08:58,636
Speaker 1: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if

1382
01:08:58,676 --> 01:09:01,116
Speaker 1: you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and

1383
01:09:01,156 --> 01:09:02,876
Speaker 1: review us on your podcast app.

1384
01:09:03,156 --> 01:09:04,636
Speaker 2: Our theme music's by Kenny Beats.

1385
01:09:04,876 --> 01:09:05,956
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.