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Cards issued by JP 35 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 3: Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC subject to credit approval Offer, 36 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 3: subject to change. 37 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 4: Terms apply. 38 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: Once upon a time, physicists seemed to have the world 39 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: figured out. Almost There were one or two loose threads 40 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: to be tidied up, but a solid idea about how 41 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: the universe worked had emerged, and it made sense at 42 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: a particle level. Physicists thought the universe worked basically the 43 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: same way did at the human level and at the 44 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: planetary level, little balls moving around, orbiting each other, occasionally 45 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: even careening off of each other. How wonderful and symmetric 46 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: and symbol it seemed that the same concepts worked from 47 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: the very small to the very large. What a deep, 48 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: satisfying truth about the universe we had revealed that explained 49 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: almost everything other than a few pesky experimental results, and 50 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: then those remaining loose threads unraveled the whole picture. To 51 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: explain those weird experiments, we needed to break that symmetry 52 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: and come up with a new vision for how the 53 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: microscopic world works. At the smallest level, the world wasn't 54 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: made of little spinning balls, but of something new and 55 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: quite alien, quantum objects that followed a weird set of 56 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: rules that gave headaches to even the geniuses of the 57 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: twentieth century. So then, what is real? Is the world 58 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: made of stuff that moves through space like basketballs and 59 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: planets or does it follow some crazy new, weird quantum rules. 60 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: And if the quantum rules are real, does that mean 61 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: that the universe doesn't make any sense deep down? Hi, 62 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel I'm a particle physicist and I'm desperate to 63 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: know what is real about the universe. And with me 64 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: today is a special guest astrophysicist Adam Becker, and an 65 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: expert on reality, given that he's written a wonderful book 66 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: about quantum mechanics titled What is Real? Adam, Welcome to 67 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: the program. Say hello, Hi, Yeah, thanks for having me Daniel. 68 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 4: This is a lot of fun. 69 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: Well, I'm especially pleased to have you on today because 70 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: when listeners write in and ask me what they can 71 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: read to get a better understanding of the thorny problems 72 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: of quantum mechanics, I always recommend your book. So thanks 73 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: for joining us and for helping us unravel a little 74 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: bit about what we know and what we don't know 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: about the universe. 76 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 4: Well that's great. I'm really glad to hear that you're 77 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 4: plugging my. 78 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: Book and welcome everybody to the podcast. Daniel and Jorhiggs 79 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: Plain in the Universe, where we try to do just that, 80 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: embrace our knowledge and admit our ignorance. We do a 81 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: deep dive into what things really mean, and admit when 82 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: words and science are being used to describe our lack 83 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: of knowledge rather than our actual understanding. We're here to 84 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: explain all of it to you, and on today's program, 85 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna tempt to do something very hard, to tackle 86 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: one of the trickiest topics in modern physics, the meaning 87 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: of quantum mechanics. But our goal isn't to find solution today, 88 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: but instead to help guide you through the current situation, 89 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: the status of our knowledge and ignorance, to show you 90 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: where the tricky bits are, why they have been so 91 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: persistently tricky, and what the various ideas are for making progress. 92 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: I mean, we know that quantum mechanics works right, the 93 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: math is correct, it can predict the results of experiments 94 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 1: with incredible precision. It seems like our universe is quantum mechanical. 95 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: But we want to know what that means about the universe. 96 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: We want to know what is real. To me, that's 97 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: what physics is is explaining the unknown in terms of 98 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: the known, is grappling with it and getting our intuition 99 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: around it. So my first question to you, Adam, is 100 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: do you think that's possible? Do we even have the tools, 101 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: the mental tools to explain and understand something this alien, 102 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 1: to understand what is real? 103 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 4: I mean, hopefully I guess that's the short answer. The 104 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 4: longer answer is, you know, so far, we seem to 105 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 4: be doing a pretty okay job. I am certainly open 106 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 4: to the possibility that the human mind is not capable 107 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,559 Speaker 4: of comprehending some basic features of reality. On the other hand, 108 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 4: you know, throughout the history of science, we've got a 109 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 4: pretty good track record of you know, banging our heads 110 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 4: against a problem and eventually coming up with a pretty 111 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 4: good theory of what's going on and a pretty good mathematical, 112 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 4: you know, description to go along with that theory. Quantum mechanics, 113 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 4: of course, is deeply strange, but there's no rule against 114 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 4: reality being strange, right. In fact, it'd be kind of 115 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 4: weird if the world were not. 116 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: Weird, I mean disappointing. 117 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, And also, come on, have you been here? 118 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 4: Have you seen this place? 119 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: Of course it's weird, But you're toutings are the history 120 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: of our accomplishments, and those are wonderful, but a lot 121 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: of those are limited to sort of the narrow regime 122 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: in which our intuition works. Right, Because we grew up 123 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: experiencing at things, these are familiar questions we have, Why 124 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: does the thing roll down? The hill, What are these 125 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: stars moving around us? Does that necessarily mean it's possible 126 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: to like extrapolate to other weird realms where we just 127 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: have not grown up with any sort of actual experience. 128 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, not necessarily. It's possible that will hit 129 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 4: some sort of limit. I'm just not convinced that quantum 130 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 4: mechanics represents that limit. I mean, first of all, we 131 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 4: have this phenomenally accurate and precise theory in quantum mechanics, 132 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 4: in quantum physics more generally, you know, arguably the most 133 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 4: accurate scientific theory ever in terms of, you know, how 134 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 4: well it matches experiment. And it's not as if we've 135 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 4: looked at the theory and thrown up our hands and said, 136 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 4: you know, this is impossible to understand. We have, you know, 137 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 4: mathematical tools, but there's no way that the human mind 138 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 4: can comprehend the reality behind the math. If anything, it's 139 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 4: the opposite. We have too many ideas about how to 140 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 4: understand the reality behind the math. So that doesn't sound 141 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 4: like a failure of human intuition to me, at least 142 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 4: not yet. 143 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: You know. 144 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm totally open to the idea that we'll get 145 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 4: there at some point. 146 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: All right, Well, you sound like a supporter of quantum mechanics. 147 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: In fact, it sounds like you're a shill for Big Quantum. 148 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 4: You know, I don't think anyone is ever acute me 149 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 4: if being a show for Big Quantum before. But I 150 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 4: can't say that you're wrong. I'm just not exactly a 151 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 4: paid shell. There's no money in it. 152 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: Oh you're not getting your checks? 153 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 4: Oh man, Yeah, well I'm not from Big Quantum, just 154 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 4: from the publisher. 155 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: Well, we can't tagle a lot of qualt mechanics in 156 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: a single episode, So today I want to focus on 157 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: one issue in particular, which is I think at the 158 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: heart of it all and sometimes known as the measurement problem. 159 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: So on today's program, we're asking the question what makes 160 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: the wave function collapse? What is measurement in quantum mechanics 161 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: and Adam. Before we dig into it, we do something 162 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 1: fun on the program, which is that I ask our 163 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: listeners to answer this question, just to get a sense 164 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: for like what out there are people thinking, How much 165 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: of a grasp of people have on this question. It 166 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: helps orient us to know where to aim our answer. 167 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: So I have for us some clips from listeners, and 168 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: if you out there listening would like to participate for 169 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,359 Speaker 1: future episodes to answer really hard physics questions with no preparation. 170 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: Please write to me two questions at Daniel Adjorge dot com. 171 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: It's a lot more fun than it sounds. Here's what 172 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: our listeners had to say. 173 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 5: Okay, I have been learning about wave functions and quantum physics, 174 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 5: and I think I know that's a really important part 175 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 5: of measuring something, and I have heard about it collapsing, 176 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 5: But I'm not sure what makes a collapse. I'm gonna 177 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 5: guess that what makes a wave function collapse is when 178 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 5: something's measured. 179 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 6: I would say, once the energy in the wave is 180 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 6: reduced to a certain point, the wave can no longer 181 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 6: support itself and it collapses. 182 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 7: I'm just gonna guess here, probably something that intervenes from 183 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 7: outside so on outside interaction. 184 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: All right, So those are the answers from our awesome listeners. Adam, 185 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: what do you think about those speculations. 186 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 4: I mean they mostly sound like the kinds of things 187 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 4: that you would see in a quantum mechanics textbook actually, 188 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 4: which is to say kind of vague. 189 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: Right, there's a lot of talk in there about like, well, 190 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: I'm not sure something about measurement, but I don't really 191 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: know what that means, And like that's really the heart 192 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: of the problem, right, Like nobody really knows what we 193 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: mean by measurement or by observation. So we like have 194 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: a word for it, we have a phrase for it, 195 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: but we don't really know exactly what that means is 196 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: happening deep down? Yeah, that's exactly right, all right, So 197 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: I think maybe we should start just by orienting ourselves, 198 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: just by getting sort of like using the same vocabulary 199 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: and making sure everybody out there knows what we're talking 200 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: about when we say the wave function, Can you give 201 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: us a short definition of what the wave function is 202 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: and why it's so important to this question. 203 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 4: I mean, there's a sense in which the question of 204 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 4: what the wave function is is kind of what's at 205 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 4: the heart of all this. But yeah, I can take 206 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 4: a stab at that. So in sort of classical physics, 207 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 4: the physics of Isaac Newton, the physics of everyday life, 208 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 4: the physics of you know, billiard balls and car crashes, 209 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 4: the way that we describe where things are. We usually 210 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 4: use three numbers to describe where something is, or at 211 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 4: least where the center of mass of something is. You know, 212 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 4: we say, okay, well, here's where it is in the X, 213 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 4: y and z. Here's how high off the ground it is, 214 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 4: here's how far in front of me it is, and 215 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 4: here's how far it is off to one side. And 216 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,359 Speaker 4: that's all you really need to describe where something. 217 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: Is, because we live in a three dimensional world exactly right. 218 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 4: But in quantum mechanics, if you want to do the 219 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 4: same thing, if you want to take all the information 220 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 4: we have about where something is, like if you want 221 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 4: to talk about where an electron is, you need more 222 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 4: than three numbers. You actually need on infinity of numbers 223 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 4: spread out across all of space, and that's the wave function. 224 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 4: So the numbers are higher in some spots and lower 225 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 4: in and usually what we say the wave function represents 226 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 4: is that it's to do with the probability of finding 227 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 4: the electron in a particular spot when we look, which 228 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 4: makes it sound like the wave function isn't really a 229 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 4: thing in nature, and it's just a lot more about 230 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 4: our information. 231 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so hold on, let me ask you about that, 232 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: because you're making an analogy to a classical particle where 233 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: we're talking about like where it actually is, and you're 234 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: saying that you need more information to talk about where 235 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: an electron is. But now you're describing the wave function 236 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: in terms not of where the object is or what 237 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: it is, but about our measurements of it already. So 238 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: like we've already sort of snuck into the electron. 239 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 4: That's exactly right. I mean, there's there are I wasn't 240 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 4: kidding when I said that. You know, the question of 241 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 4: what the wave function is is sort of part of 242 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 4: the controversy here and part of what's at stake. 243 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: We'll see if we get past this one question in 244 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: the whole Evan exactly. 245 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not convinceable success, but yeah, I mean the 246 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 4: reason I I say, oh, this is sort of the 247 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 4: quantum analogue of you know, the three numbers describing where 248 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 4: something is in Newton's physics is that, you know, it 249 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 4: sort of plays the same role in the same sorts 250 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 4: of physical laws in quantum physics. So the question of 251 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 4: whether the wave function is a thing out in the 252 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 4: world or if it's just something about our information about 253 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 4: stuff out in the world is you know, a live 254 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 4: question and a subject of active debate. But it's not 255 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 4: just as simple as saying, oh, it's just our information 256 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 4: about what's out there. It's just that in the most 257 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,599 Speaker 4: simple way imaginable because wave functions, I mean, like the 258 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 4: name sort of implies the wave functions. Wave they behave 259 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 4: in ways that we actually tend to associate with physical objects. 260 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 4: They undulate smoothly, the numbers change smoothly from one place 261 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 4: to another, they change over time, and they can even 262 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 4: perform some of the same tricks that waves perform. You 263 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 4: can send them through a narrow slit and they'll diffract 264 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 4: outward on the other side. They can interfere with themselves 265 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 4: and cause you know, patterns of light and darkness on 266 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 4: a photographic plate, that sort of thing. 267 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 1: So we call it a wave function because mathematically it's 268 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: described by similar equations to describe other kind of classical 269 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: waves we're familiar with, that's. 270 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 4: Right, yeah, And it also performs some of the same 271 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 4: tricks as classical waves that we're familiar with physically. So 272 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 4: you know, we don't tend to think of our information 273 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 4: about a thing as doing that. And it doesn't mean 274 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 4: that it can't. It just means that if we want 275 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 4: an account of wave functions in terms of our information 276 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 4: about the world, as opposed to saying, you know, the 277 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 4: wave function is actually a wave that's out there, we 278 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 4: need to do some extra work. 279 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: So you're saying the wave function tells us how to 280 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: predict the outcomes of our experiments, like if I'm going 281 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: to find the electron over here, or if I'm going 282 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: to find it over there, or if I'm going to 283 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: find it spin up or I'm going to find it 284 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: spin down. It tells me what I'm likely to observe. 285 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: But we're not not sure whether it's like actually real 286 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: and distinct separate from our ability to measure it and 287 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: interact with it. We don't know sort of philosophically, whether 288 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: we can take that step. 289 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean there are theorems that suggest that 290 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 4: there's something like the wave function out in the world, 291 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 4: but it's not. You know, this is an open question 292 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 4: and has been since the beginning of quantum physics almost 293 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 4: one hundred years ago. 294 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: And I think that's sort of one of the most 295 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: fascinating points. I mean, you talk about classical physics, there's 296 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: no distinction there between the thing exists and we measure 297 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: it to exist there. It's just like those two things 298 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: are just part of the same idea. You see the 299 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: ball there because it is there, right, and it would 300 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: be there if you weren't here to look at it 301 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: as all this kind of stuff. So I love these 302 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: discoveries and physics that make us sort of crack open 303 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: two ideas we thought were so naturally entangled, so like 304 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: deeply connected, and now we realize there's a possibility for 305 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: these two things to be actually separate and distinct. Observing 306 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: something is there doesn't mean that it is there in 307 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: some deeper sense. It's like crazy, yeah, no, that's it's 308 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: absolutely true. And one of the strange things about wave 309 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: functions and measurement is just the idea that, you know, 310 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: measurement and observation are coming into what's supposed to be 311 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: a fundamental theory at all, because you know, measurement is 312 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: not a well defined thing. You know, what do we 313 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: mean when we say measurement, right? And I think that 314 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: a key concept we need to tackle before we get 315 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: into measurement is this question of superposition, right, because quantum 316 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: mechanical objects can do something that like our base balls 317 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: can't do, which is that they can for a long time, 318 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: have two possible outcomes and maintain those two possibilities simultaneously. Right, 319 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: So the wave function can incorporate various possible outcomes inside 320 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: of itself. 321 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, now that's exactly right. If you send a ping 322 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 4: pong ball into a maze, it's just going to go 323 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 4: down one path and that maze and you can watch 324 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 4: it take one path. But if you send an electron 325 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 4: or a photon or some other you know, tiniqueuantum object 326 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 4: into you know, some sort of maze, like send a 327 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 4: photon into a set of mirrors and prisms on an 328 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 4: optical bench, you know, in the basement of a physics 329 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 4: department somewhere. It's not going to take just one path. 330 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 4: Quantum mechanics says, no, it's going to take a superposition 331 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 4: of all of those paths. It's going to go down 332 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 4: two or three or four different paths at the same time, 333 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 4: or this wave function will. 334 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: But then when we measure it at the end, right, 335 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: we say, all right, I'm going to put a device 336 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: in here. I'm going to ask the question, which one 337 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,239 Speaker 1: did it actually go down? I can't measure all those paths, right, 338 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: I get one answer. 339 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 4: That's right, you get one answer. If you put a 340 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 4: detector on one of the paths, then you'll get an 341 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 4: answer saying, you know, yes, it went down this path 342 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 4: or no it didn't. But if instead you set up 343 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 4: your optical bench, your maze, whatever you want to call it, 344 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 4: or your double slit experiment, so that there's an interference 345 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 4: pattern on the other side, you will get interference. So 346 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 4: when you're not asking the question of which way the 347 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 4: photon went when it went into your set up, it 348 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 4: sort of goes down all of those paths and then 349 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 4: interferes with itself. But if you ask, wait, which way 350 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 4: did you go, well, then it says, oh, no, I 351 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 4: went this way, and then it doesn't interfere with itself. 352 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: And so we know that the wave function does this 353 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: superposition thing having two possible outcomes at the same time, 354 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: because we see the interference, that's proof of superposition. But 355 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: then when we try to measure the photon, the superposition 356 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: sneaks away. And for you, is that like the clearest 357 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: encapsulation of this question, this measurement problem, like how the 358 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: wave function goes from having like various quantum mechanical possibilities 359 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: for the paths of a photon to basically picking one. 360 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: How the universe like ends up rolling that die choosing 361 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: oh this path or that path or the other path. 362 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 4: I think it's a very clear example of that. The 363 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 4: way that I usually talk about it is a little different. 364 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 4: You know, I say, okay, this is one example of 365 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 4: the measurement problem, but in general, the measurement problem is 366 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 4: more about that sort of undulating property of the wave 367 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 4: function that I was talking about before. Right, we have 368 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 4: this very nice equation, the Schrodinger equation. It's a law 369 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 4: of physics. Right, we think of it as a law 370 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 4: of nature, and that describes how wave functions wave. Right. 371 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 4: It says that they always wave sort of smoothly and evenly, 372 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 4: and you know, they don't make any abrupt transitions. But 373 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 4: sometimes the Shrodinger equation is temporarily suspended. 374 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: What you can't do that you can just pause the 375 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: laws of physics. 376 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes it says if someone just hits pause on 377 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 4: the Shroting equation, and instead you have to use this 378 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 4: other thing called the Born rule, which says, okay, take 379 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 4: the wave function and look at all the different possibilities 380 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 4: it gives you for the way that your experiment is 381 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 4: going to turn out, and that gives you the probabilities 382 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 4: for the different outcomes. That's what the wave function does. 383 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 4: When you use the Born rule and then whichever one 384 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 4: you actually observe, cut out all the other parts the 385 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 4: wave function, that's the only one that's left. All the 386 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 4: others just instantly go. 387 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: To zero and then violates the shorting your equation. 388 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 4: And that violates the shorting your equation. The shorting your 389 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 4: equation doesn't have anything in it like that. And then 390 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 4: when you stop looking, that's what happens when you make 391 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 4: a measurement. And then when you stop looking, the shorting 392 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 4: air equation applies again. And so then the question is, okay, well, 393 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 4: so if you have these two different rules and they 394 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 4: contradict each other, then first of all, why And second 395 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 4: we better be really, really really clear about when to 396 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 4: use one and when to use the other. And this 397 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 4: is the collapse of the wave function. And so the 398 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 4: usual answer to the question when do we use one 399 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 4: and when do we use the other? When does the 400 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 4: wave function collapse? The usual answer that is when we 401 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,479 Speaker 4: make a measurement. And so now the fact that the 402 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 4: word measurement is kind of vague goes from you know, 403 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 4: a little troublesome or annoying to you're really serious problem. 404 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: Right, So that's a great encapsulation of the question we're facing. Like, 405 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: we have this beautiful equation, the Shortener equation that tells 406 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: us how this wave function moves and changes and squishes 407 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: through the world, and we verified it to zillions of 408 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: degrees of accuracy, except that, as you say, sometimes it 409 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: seems to be ignored and sometimes it doesn't seem to apply. 410 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: And so we have this question of, like how a 411 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: wave function goes from this smooth underlending property to like 412 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: collapsing into just a point when we make a measurement, 413 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: what that measurement even means. 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And I have this quote that I 487 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: love from Bell who says, either the wave function as 488 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: given by the Shorting equation is everything, or it's not right. 489 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: What do you make of that? 490 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 4: I see what he's getting at there, and I think 491 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 4: he's kind of right. I mean, there's got to be 492 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 4: something more that tells us, Okay, when do we apply 493 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 4: the Shrotingir equation and when don't we because otherwise, you know, 494 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 4: and I think Belle said something along these lines as well. 495 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 4: We're stuck in this situation where these laws of physics 496 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 4: that are suppose to be fundamental or just kind of 497 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 4: hopelessly vague. 498 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: So we have to take the Shortener equation and the 499 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: wave function, all of which seems wonderful and perfect and beautiful, 500 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: and we love it, and we need to add something else. 501 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: We need to say. Plus, there's this other mechanism that 502 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: makes things collapse. And this, I think is where people 503 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: disagree how to describe this weird combination of ideas in 504 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: sort of a holistic concept. And so first let's talk 505 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: about maybe the most mainstream way to attack this, the 506 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: most common they're the one that people most read about 507 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: in their textbooks, and that I think a lot of 508 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: our listeners refer to, which is basically the Copenhagen interpretation, 509 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: where you add something to the Shortener equation that makes 510 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: the wave function collapse when you look at it. So 511 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: how does that actually happen? Like, what do you add 512 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: to your system, you know, mathematically to make that happen. 513 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: You can't just have like a thing that says and 514 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: by the way, if there's a measurement, I mean, doesn't 515 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: everything have to be like you know, written down in 516 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: some sort of equation. 517 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 4: The thing is it is just kind of added on. 518 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 4: They do basically just say, yeah, there's the Shrodinger equation, 519 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 4: except when a measurement occurs, and what a measurement occurs? 520 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 4: Use this other thing instead. Use this collapse rule called 521 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 4: the Born rule, named after Max Born, you know, one 522 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 4: of the architects of quantum physics. And it's just got 523 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 4: a completely different mathematical form and it's you know, it 524 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 4: says okay, you know, like I said before, it lets 525 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 4: you use the wave function to calculate probabilities, and then says, 526 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 4: and then the rest of the wave function other than 527 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 4: the part that you saw, collapses. So, if you're looking 528 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 4: for an electron somewhere, and you've got the wave function 529 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 4: of the electron, which is, you know, this sort of 530 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 4: nice smooth thing that's maybe got three or four different peaks, 531 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 4: you look for the electron, you find it near one 532 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 4: of the peaks. The Born rule says, okay, well, then 533 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 4: what happens to the electrons wave function is you know, 534 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 4: now it just has one extremely narrow peak exactly where 535 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 4: you found it, and it goes to zero everywhere else. 536 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 4: And then when you stop looking, the Schrodinger equation just 537 00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 4: applies again. 538 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: Which is kind of credible, and it requires us to 539 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: sort of insert ourselves into the equation, right, it needs 540 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: like the measurement part is when we are interacting with 541 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: this thing. And I think the most common question is 542 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: what counts as a measurement. If I put a particle 543 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: detector in there but don't turn it on, does it count? 544 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: If I turn it on but don't connect it to 545 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: my computer? Does it count? If I hook it all up? 546 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: But then don't look at the computer screen. Does it 547 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: count as a measurement? And what's special about my particle 548 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: detector isn't that particle constantly interacting with other things? Doesn't 549 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: that count as a measurement? So can we tackle it 550 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: by thinking about sort of quantum particles we're using to 551 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: make the measurement, you know, because we don't just like 552 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: look at an electron, right, we like bounce a photon 553 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: off of it or something like that. 554 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean the Copenhagen interpretation sort of lives 555 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 4: or dies on what you mean by measurement, right, And 556 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 4: so it is tempting to say, okay, well, maybe we 557 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 4: can get around this problem by saying that, you know, 558 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 4: the measurement device is itself also quantum. But the problem 559 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 4: is that if you use the your equation, you know, 560 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 4: wave functions and the mathematical machinery of quantum mechanics to 561 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 4: describe the measurement device as well, then all that happens 562 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 4: when you make a measurement is you go from your 563 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 4: measured system in a superposition and your measuring device sort 564 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 4: of ready to make a measurement, to a state where 565 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 4: both the measured system and the measuring device are in 566 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 4: a superposition. And so you know, if you wanted to say, okay, 567 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 4: did the electron go left or did it go right, 568 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 4: and then you use your measuring device to answer that question, 569 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 4: then the Shroting equation says at the end of that measurement, 570 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 4: what you're going to end up with is a superposition 571 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 4: of the electron went left and the measuring device says left, 572 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 4: and the electron went right and the measuring device says right. 573 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: So the measuring device has become sort of part of 574 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: the experiment exactly. 575 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, And so that's not going to get you out 576 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 4: of it. Eventually, you have to, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, 577 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 4: you have to say, well, then a measurement occurs, and 578 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 4: so the Shroting your equation and doesn't apply anymore. And 579 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 4: we have to use the collapse rule, the Born rule, 580 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 4: and so you really need to get comfortable with whatever 581 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 4: it is that a measurement means, which the Copenhagen interpretation 582 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 4: is kind of famously vague about. 583 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: So let's break that down a little bit more. So, 584 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: we have our electron and we probe it with the 585 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: tip of some very very narrow tool, and the tip 586 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: is just like a single particle that's interacting with the electron. 587 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: Now we might say, okay, the tools touching the electron, 588 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: so it's being measured, it should collapse. It should just 589 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: collapse right there. But somebody else coming in and looking 590 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: the experiment the same way could say, no, no, no, I 591 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: think the system is the electron plus the tip of 592 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: the tool, and the rest of the tool is the 593 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: measuring device. So the tip of the tool plus the electron, 594 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: that's your experiment. That's what you're probing. The measurement happens 595 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: when like the next particle over reads off the information 596 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: from the tip of the tool, And somebody else could 597 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: come along and say, no, no, no, I think the original 598 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: electron plus the first two things on the tip of 599 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: the tool are part of the experiment, and the rest 600 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: of it is the measurement. And you can just basically 601 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: do this forever, right all the way down the tool, 602 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: including as many particles as you like, or even including 603 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: the experimenter him or herself. 604 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean quantum Channic says this weird propensity to 605 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 4: just sort of generate these sorts of thought experiments like 606 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 4: the one that you're talking about that sound like something 607 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 4: out of like an ancient Greek philosophical. 608 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: Dialogue or something Xeno's quantum experiment exactly. 609 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there even is a Xeno experiment, though 610 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 4: not that one. But yeah. The problem here is, you know, 611 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 4: it'd be easy to say when a measurement occurs, if 612 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 4: we could say, well, there's a quantum world, and then 613 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 4: there's a non quantum world, and when a non quantum 614 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 4: thing interacts with a quantum thing, that's a measurement thing. 615 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 4: Is nobody believes that anymore. 616 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: Because all non quantum things are made of quantum things, right. 617 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 4: Exactly, Yeah. We believe that the world is made of 618 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 4: everything in the world is made of molecules, which are 619 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 4: made of atoms, which are made of subatomic particles, all 620 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 4: of which are subject to the law of quantum mechanics. 621 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 4: And quantum mechanics doesn't have a real size limit. I mean, 622 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,959 Speaker 4: certainly there are you know, sizes at which some of 623 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 4: its features are more obvious than others. But in principle, 624 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 4: there's no limit to the size of a system that 625 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 4: you can use quantum mechanics to describe. And we believe 626 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 4: that the whole world is made of particles subject to 627 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 4: the laws of quantum physics. So yeah, the question becomes, 628 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 4: if there's no border between the quantum world and the 629 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 4: non quantum world, because the whole world is quantum, then 630 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 4: when does a measurement occur? Is it when the measurement 631 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 4: device touches the object? Well, in that case, does that 632 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 4: mean that quantum mechanics doesn't apply to the measurement device? Okay, Well, 633 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 4: maybe it's when somebody looks at the measurement device. Maybe 634 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,959 Speaker 4: it's when I look at the measurement device. Okay, but 635 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 4: does that mean that quantum mechanics doesn't apply to me. 636 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 4: I'm made of quantum stuff, you know. I'm made of cells, 637 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 4: which are made of molecules, which are made of subatomic 638 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 4: particles and so on. You know, there's no reason to 639 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 4: think that quantum mechanics doesn't apply to all of the 640 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 4: stuff in my mind, my body and brain. In fact, 641 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 4: every time we've checked on something like that, we've found that, 642 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 4: you know, every biochemical process is fully explained by quantum mechanics. 643 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: All right, But there is one wrinkle there, right, Like, 644 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 1: you are different from you know, the asylloscope or the 645 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: probe we're using to touch the electron. We think in 646 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: that you are conscious right, you are a self aware 647 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: you are a living, thinking, breathing person that or know 648 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: about the ocilloscope. It didn't invite the asilloscope to be 649 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: a guest on the podcast to speak up for itself. 650 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: But you know, I think a lot of people imagine 651 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: that that might be the moment when the measurement happens, 652 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: when the information like goes through the tool and up 653 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: the computer and into your brain and it's like known 654 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: by a conscious observer. What about that? Why can't we 655 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: use that as a distinction. Well, so there's a few 656 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: issues there, right. One is, you know, consciousness is something 657 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: that we don't understand. Well, what do we mean by consciousness? 658 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: You know you were sort of getting at that before 659 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: when you were bringing in this thought experiment of you know, okay, well, 660 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: when I look is that the measurement? No? 661 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 4: Well, then when you come in the room and you 662 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 4: look at me, is that the measurement. This was put 663 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 4: together by this famous physicist Eugene Vigner, and it's called 664 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 4: the Vigner's friend experiment. And I'm conscious, right, my friend 665 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 4: is conscious, So maybe the measurement happens when I look 666 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 4: or is it when my friend looks at me, or 667 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 4: you know, does it have to be a human. What 668 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 4: if we put a chimp in there? Right? What about 669 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 4: a dog or a crow? Right? Crows are really smart. 670 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: Hold on, let's break down the vigness friend experiment, because 671 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: I think this is worth describing. Like, essentially, the idea is, 672 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: you are doing this experiment. You are measuring this electron. 673 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: You're using a tool, and you do the evaluation and 674 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: you get a number. Now I don't know the answer yet, 675 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: and so in some sense I can look at you 676 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: and say, well, you are a part of my tool. Adam, 677 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: I haven't asked you yet what happened, so I don't 678 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: know the answer. So you are still in a quantum 679 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: superposition of the electron went left and the electron went right. 680 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: So in that sense, like a conscious person can be 681 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: in a quantum state, right, you can have like the 682 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: wave function of that Becker having two different possibilities. 683 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's a problem, right, because that that's 684 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 4: the sort of thing that feels like it could lead 685 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 4: to an infinite regress. Right, you know, Okay, but then 686 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 4: you're in a superposition until your friend talks to you, 687 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 4: and then we start having problems like Okay, but then 688 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 4: why does everybody agree about the outcome of the experiment? 689 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 8: Right? 690 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: What was it like to be in a superposition? What 691 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: did it feel? 692 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 4: What was it like to be in a superposition? Exactly? 693 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 4: What does it feel like? I don't think that I've 694 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 4: ever been in two places at once, or that I've 695 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 4: ever believed that an experiment. 696 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: I felt like I needed to be in two posies 697 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: ones exactly. 698 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I certainly don't think that I've ever like, 699 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 4: you know, looked at the outcome of an experiment and thought, oh, 700 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 4: that went both of the two mutually contradictory ways that 701 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 4: it could go. You know, the electron went left and 702 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 4: it also went right. And I saw the measurement device 703 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 4: say left and also say right at the same time. 704 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 4: That's not an experience I remember having. 705 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: And that kind of rules out this notion of consciousness 706 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 1: being the threshold, because you can play a conscious observer 707 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: into your experiment and still have the wave function not 708 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: collapse until after the conscious observer reports their results. Right, 709 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: Just at a conscious observer observing something doesn't necessarily make 710 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,399 Speaker 1: the wave function collapse, isn't that right? 711 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 4: Yeah? 712 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: With an asterisk, tell us about the asterisk? 713 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I mean, you can set up a system 714 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 4: where you've got a quantum wave function and superposition and 715 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 4: you can sort of verify that it's in a superposition, 716 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 4: and that verification does not itself lead to the collapse 717 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 4: of the wave function. 718 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: Wait, how do you do that? How do you verify that? 719 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: As by observing interference? 720 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's by observing interference. You can see that there's interference. 721 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 4: But what you can't do, or at least what we 722 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 4: don't have the ability to do right now, is put 723 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 4: a human in there as part of the system that 724 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 4: is exhibiting interference. Right. 725 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: Oh, I see, I can't see the various modes of 726 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: atom interfering with themselves exactly. 727 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, but there are other reasons to think that consciousness 728 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 4: is probably not what's going on here, or if it is, 729 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 4: you need a really good account of how that's possible. Right, 730 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 4: Because one of the things that we want to be 731 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 4: able to use quantum physics to do, and you know, 732 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 4: as a cosmologists by training, this is near and dear 733 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 4: to my heart. We want to use quantum physics to 734 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 4: describe the very early universe. Who want to do quantum cosmology, 735 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 4: and you know that means talking about things like the 736 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 4: wave function of the universe. And indeed, you know, we 737 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 4: talk about that when we talk about things like, you know, 738 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 4: patterns in the cosmic microwave, background radiation, the oldest light 739 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 4: in the universe, and echo of the Big Bang, we 740 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 4: see the imprint of quantum mechanics in the sky. And 741 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 4: now I am going to almost directly quote John Bell. 742 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 4: Was the wave function of the universe waiting for billions 743 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 4: and billions of years for you know, a paramesium to 744 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 4: arrive and collapse the wave function? Or did it need 745 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 4: a better qualified observer, you know, someone with a PhD. 746 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: The first PhD collapse the universe's wage exactly. 747 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think that that's how that worked. I 748 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 4: don't think that conscious beings are necessary in order for 749 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 4: quantum mechanics to work. 750 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: So if the wave function collapses, and we don't really 751 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: know if the wave function is real and exists outside 752 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: the mind of humans, but if it is real and 753 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: it does collapse, it seems like it must have been 754 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: collapsing for billions of years before we showed. 755 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 4: Up, that's right. And if it doesn't collapse, we need 756 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 4: to figure out why it looks like. 757 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: It though it does seem important, and I think that 758 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 1: you mentioned something really interesting about how we know that 759 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 1: asymmetries do exist, right, Like, this question is important not 760 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: just for philosophers, but for like quantum cosmologists. How do 761 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: you go from the beginning of a universe where you 762 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 1: I assume have a symmetric wave function because anything else 763 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: would be bonkers, and somehow get asymmetries, right, how do 764 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: you get a universe that's not exactly the same in 765 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: every direction where those things come from? Those come from 766 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: quantum fluctuations, which are quantum collapses, right, Yeah, that's right. 767 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: Quantum fluctuations happen when you might have equal probabilities to 768 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: go left or right, but like one of them is chosen. 769 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,479 Speaker 1: The universe does roll a die, And so the fact 770 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: that we exist here and not a billion light ears 771 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: to the left is evidence that quantum mechanics does fluctuate, 772 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: that there are these collapses, that these things are real somehow. 773 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, or at least that's something like collapse or 774 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 4: something that imitates collapse or gives the appearance of collapse happens. 775 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: All right, So it seems like this Copenhagen interpretation is 776 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: pretty problematic, right, Like, there's a basic fundamental unknown in it, 777 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 1: like what this even means by measurement. We need measurement 778 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: to get the way it function to collapse, or to 779 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,439 Speaker 1: get it to look like it collapses, but we don't 780 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: even really know what that means and what triggers it. 781 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: So how could this possibly be the most mainstream, core 782 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: idea in the most fundamental concept in physics. 783 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 4: That's a great question, and it unfortunately has a very 784 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 4: simple answer. The answer is when people ask these sorts 785 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 4: of questions, they were just sort of waved away. It's 786 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,280 Speaker 4: more complex than that. I wrote a whole book about 787 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 4: how this happened, and before I did, I used to say, well, 788 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 4: I could write a book about it, and then it 789 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 4: turns out that I made good on. 790 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: That wave function did collapse into a book? 791 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 4: Yes it did. But yeah, the answer is, you know, 792 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 4: people ask, well, what do we mean by measurement? We 793 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 4: have to get more specific about this. How could this 794 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 4: possibly be this vague and ill defined and contradictory, And 795 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 4: the answer that was usually given was it works, so 796 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 4: don't worry about it. This was sort of summed up 797 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 4: famously by the physicist David Merman as shut up and calculate. 798 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: That's basically like, don't worry about what it means. It works, 799 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: it predicts our experiments. Who cares, Yeah. 800 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 4: Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain. 801 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 4: Just you know, do the calculations, and you'll be able 802 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 4: to build most of the technology that the modern world 803 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 4: is based on. Which which is you know absolutely true? 804 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 4: You know you don't need to answer this question in 805 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:09,359 Speaker 4: order to do things like design semiconductor transistors and build 806 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 4: computer chips and lasers and LEDs and you know, nuclear 807 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 4: power and all of the other incredible and you know, 808 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 4: awesome in the most literal sense technologies that quantum physics 809 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 4: has enabled over the last century. 810 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,280 Speaker 1: But science and physics is not just about delivering technological 811 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: improvements for humanity, right, Like, I love that all our 812 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: listeners can hear this podcast on various devices enabled by 813 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. But I didn't go into physics to like 814 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: make a better iPhone. I went into physics to understand 815 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: the universe. Right, So doesn't that really fly in the 816 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: face of sort of the core mission of the entire 817 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 1: discipline to gain some understanding? 818 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 4: I think? So I completely agree with you, but apparently 819 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:56,919 Speaker 4: not everyone does. 820 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: All right, well, I'm glad we agree on that, and 821 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 1: I want to dig into some other possibilities. Some other 822 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: ways people have attacked this problem, some crazy, totally different 823 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: ways are thinking about what might be real about the universe. 824 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: But first, let's take another break. When you pop a 825 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: piece of cheese into your mouth, or enjoy a rich 826 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 1: spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably not thinking about the 827 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: environmental impact of each and every bite. But the people 828 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: in the dairy industry are. US Dairy has set themselves 829 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 1: some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral by 830 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: twenty to fifty. That's why they're working hard every day 831 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, 832 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,280 Speaker 1: and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, for example, 833 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: most dairy farms reuse water up to four times the 834 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,720 Speaker 1: same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn, 835 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases? 836 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from 837 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and 838 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice 839 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone. Know that 840 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the 841 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,760 Speaker 1: latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense dairy 842 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: products we love with less of an impact. Visit us 843 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more. 844 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 9: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on passing 845 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 9: the roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved 846 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 9: ones who need them to get home safely. Protect our 847 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 9: cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too. Go safely, California. 848 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 9: From the California Office of Traffic Safety and caltrans. 849 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 10: It's time for today's Lucky Land horoscope with Victoria Cash 850 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 10: Life Scotten Mundane. So shake up the daily routine and 851 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,840 Speaker 10: be adventurous with a trip to Lucky Land. You know 852 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,800 Speaker 10: what they say. Your chance to win starts with a spin, 853 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 10: So go to Lucky landslots dot com to play over 854 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 10: one hundred social casino style games for free for your 855 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:52,399 Speaker 10: chance to redeem some serious prizes. Get lucky today at 856 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 10: Lucky landslots dot Com. 857 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 2: No purchase necessary. 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I mean, 867 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 11: these evs are tech confused with standard safety features like 868 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 11: highway driving assists and blind spot collision warning. Being a mom, 869 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 11: these safety features are extremely important to me. And what's 870 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 11: better than knowing my family is safe in our vehicle 871 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,439 Speaker 11: while also knowing I look stylish at the same time. 872 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 11: Kind of nothing. 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America's Best warranty claim based on total 879 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 11: package of warn he programs see dealer for limited warranty details. 880 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 11: See your Honda dealer for further details and limitations. 881 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: All right, we're back and we're talking to Adam Becker 882 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 1: about what is real and if anything is real and 883 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: if the universe can possibly make sense at all? And 884 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: are we even here? And we've been talking about the 885 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: wave function and how the Copenhagen the mainstream interpretation of 886 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics has a basic problem in it and that 887 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,240 Speaker 1: it can't define what a measurement is. But a measurement 888 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 1: is essential to making the theory work, so it can't 889 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: be the only idea that's out there. Surely people have 890 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: thought of some other approaches. And so if you're a 891 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: listener to Sean Carroll, for example, you've probably heard him 892 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: as a big proponent of this ever already in many 893 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: world's interpretation. So, Adam, how does a many world's interpretation, 894 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: How does manufacturing billions and billions of branching universes solve 895 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: this measurement problem? Or does it? 896 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 4: That's a great question I want to say before I 897 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 4: answer that this is something that I get a lot 898 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 4: of email and people asking me about it. Back when 899 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 4: you know in person, back when you know we could 900 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 4: do things in person. For whatever reason, a lot of 901 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,320 Speaker 4: people came away from my book thinking that I agree 902 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 4: with Sean Carroll, and I like Sean. Sean's a great guy. 903 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:23,400 Speaker 1: I'm sensing a butt coming. 904 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, but I think that his position is a reasonable one. 905 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 4: But I don't think that it's the only reasonable one. 906 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 4: And I think that I am not here as a 907 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 4: shill of big many worlds. I'm just a shill of 908 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,320 Speaker 4: big quantum. 909 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,359 Speaker 1: Many worlds is already big. You do not say big 910 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: in front. 911 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 4: Of Yeah, that's true. Now, many worlds, I think is 912 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,839 Speaker 4: pretty clearly the next most popular interpretation after this sort 913 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 4: of jumble that is the Copenhagen interpretation. 914 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: All right, a breakdown for us, what is the mini 915 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: world's interpretation? 916 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,840 Speaker 4: So the many world's interpretation gets out of the measurement 917 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,360 Speaker 4: problem by saying, oh, yeah, collapse doesn't happen. It just 918 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 4: sort of looks like it does. It takes the sort 919 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 4: of infectious property of superposition, where you know, if a 920 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,879 Speaker 4: measurement device measures something that's in superposition, then it will 921 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 4: go into superposition. It takes that property and sort of 922 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 4: embraces it wholeheartedly and turns it into a strength it says, okay, well, 923 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 4: collapse never happens. The Born rule is, you know, not 924 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:29,800 Speaker 4: a fundamental thing in nature that describes what's actually happening 925 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,239 Speaker 4: in the world. It's just something we need to make predictions. 926 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 4: And in reality, the Schrodinger equation or you know, the 927 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,960 Speaker 4: relativistic extensions thereof always apply, and so wave functions always 928 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,960 Speaker 4: just evolve smoothly, which means that when you make a 929 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 4: measurement of an electron or something in a superposition. You know, 930 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,920 Speaker 4: the classic example here is Schrodinger's cat. You set it 931 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 4: up with a quantum device where you know, if it 932 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 4: goes one way, the cat lives, and if it goes 933 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 4: the other way, the cat dies. So when you open 934 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 4: the box, you find a cat that is both dead 935 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 4: and alive. It's in a superposition of dead and alive. 936 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,240 Speaker 4: And then you know, in the process of opening the box, 937 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,279 Speaker 4: you enter into a superposition yourself of seeing a dead 938 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 4: cat and seeing a living cat. And then someone else 939 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 4: comes in the room and they enter a superposition off 940 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 4: you know, seeing you crying over this dead cat and 941 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 4: seeing you, you know, playing with the living cat and 942 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 4: so on, and this just sort of spreads out into 943 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:32,480 Speaker 4: the universe. 944 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 1: So you're saying, the wave function never actually collapses and 945 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 1: picks one of these branches. It just keep branching, and 946 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,320 Speaker 1: we are only in one of those branches, which is 947 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: why it looks like it collapses. 948 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 4: Sort of. The question of where we are in the 949 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,879 Speaker 4: theory is definitely something that's contentious. But I think that 950 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,799 Speaker 4: what Sean would say, Well, I don't want to put 951 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,359 Speaker 4: words into Sean's mouth. If I put on my many 952 00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 4: worlds hat and say, okay, I'm going to pretend to 953 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 4: be a real advocate of many worlds, I would say, no, 954 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:05,360 Speaker 4: we're in both branches. But once we split, a quantum 955 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 4: process called decoherence ensures that the two branches, you know, 956 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,799 Speaker 4: once they involve large objects made of many quantum particles, 957 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,360 Speaker 4: can't interfere or communicate with each other in any way, 958 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:23,719 Speaker 4: very very quickly, and so we split. And so you know, 959 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 4: if you ask one of the copies of you that 960 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 4: is in either branch, hey, how many cats do you see? 961 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 4: How many outcomes do you see for this cat? Both 962 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 4: of them would say, oh, I only see one outcome. 963 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 4: They just disagree about what that outcome is. 964 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,480 Speaker 1: And so this is why it's called many worlds, because 965 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:49,279 Speaker 1: it imagines that multiple versions of the universe are existing decoherently, 966 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: that they've decohered from each other, and they're all out there. 967 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: They're real, but they're sort of like not accessible to 968 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,400 Speaker 1: us anymore because we're only in one branch of the 969 00:49:58,440 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 1: wave function. 970 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, or this copy of ourselves is only in this branch, 971 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,719 Speaker 4: but there are other near identical copies in all of 972 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:06,560 Speaker 4: the other branches. 973 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,080 Speaker 1: And so I was trying to lead you down the 974 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,440 Speaker 1: garden path there, I think to my major objection to 975 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: the many worlds interpretation, which is, like, why are we 976 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: in this one? Because, as you say, like there's a 977 00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,360 Speaker 1: copy of me in all of those universes that have 978 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: observed every possible outcome of the Schrodinger's box experiment. But 979 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,400 Speaker 1: still I'm this one, and I know that in the 980 00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: other universe the other me thinks that it's that one, 981 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,960 Speaker 1: and that's fine, But why is it in that universe 982 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,560 Speaker 1: and I'm in this universe? Like there is still something 983 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: special about this universe because I'm in it right. 984 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,839 Speaker 4: Well, you know, your copy in the other universe where 985 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 4: the cat died would say the same thing. 986 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,440 Speaker 1: I know, but it also has a reasonable objection right, 987 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: there is still something different about this universe because I'm 988 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:51,960 Speaker 1: in it, and there's something different about that universe because 989 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,600 Speaker 1: it's in that one. It seems to me like does 990 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: not really avoid this problem because it still takes one 991 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,799 Speaker 1: universe to be special in some sense, because this is 992 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,560 Speaker 1: the only one that I'm experiencing anyway. What are your 993 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,320 Speaker 1: concerns about the mini world interpretation. 994 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,280 Speaker 4: Well, the classic concern about it is that you still 995 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,680 Speaker 4: actually need the Born rule, right, because quantum mechanics doesn't 996 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:17,319 Speaker 4: issue forth certain predictions. It doesn't say this is, you know, 997 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,239 Speaker 4: one hundred percent definitely what's going to happen. It says 998 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 4: that sometimes, But most of the time, the predictions of 999 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 4: quantum mechanics come in the form of probabilities. It says, well, 1000 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,399 Speaker 4: there's a twenty percent chance that this is going to happen, 1001 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,120 Speaker 4: in a thirty percent chance that's going to happen, a 1002 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,360 Speaker 4: fifty percent chance that that's going to happen, and you know, 1003 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,759 Speaker 4: those are the possible outcomes. But in a world where 1004 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,400 Speaker 4: the Schroding air equation always applies, well, the Schrodinger equation 1005 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,600 Speaker 4: has no probability in it. The Schroding air equation is 1006 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,319 Speaker 4: actually like Newton's physics, and that it's completely deterministic. You know, 1007 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,400 Speaker 4: when you ask many worlds person, well what's going to 1008 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,440 Speaker 4: happen when you open the box, they'd say, well, with 1009 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 4: one hundred percent probability, I will split into two copies, 1010 00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:58,279 Speaker 4: one of which we'll see a living cat and the 1011 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 4: other we'll see a dead cat. That's definitely what's going 1012 00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,600 Speaker 4: to happen. And so then you know the next question, 1013 00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,719 Speaker 4: which is, you know, what's the probability that you're going 1014 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,840 Speaker 4: to see a living cat because I don't want a 1015 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 4: dead cat. The answer to that has to be, well, 1016 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,120 Speaker 4: you need to use the Born rule. You need to 1017 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,279 Speaker 4: use this collapse rule, because that collapse rule is how 1018 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,080 Speaker 4: we get predictions out of quantum physics. It's what makes 1019 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,560 Speaker 4: it so phenomenally accurate and powerful. And so you need 1020 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:28,880 Speaker 4: to figure out, Okay, how do we introduce probability into 1021 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,640 Speaker 4: a theory in which literally anything that can happen does happen. 1022 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 4: That's a little thorny and one way of going about it. 1023 00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,440 Speaker 4: And this is actually a position that I know for 1024 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,160 Speaker 4: sure Sean holds. So now I am gonna like do 1025 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:46,600 Speaker 4: my best Sean Carol impression. Sean says, that, well, the 1026 00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:51,800 Speaker 4: probability comes from basically exactly your concern that we don't 1027 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 4: know where in this branching multiverse of worlds we are located, 1028 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,799 Speaker 4: and so we have uncertain and tea about where we are, 1029 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,120 Speaker 4: and that uncertainty is where the probabilities come from. When 1030 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,360 Speaker 4: we do the experiment and we see an outcome, what 1031 00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:11,800 Speaker 4: we're actually doing is learning where in the many worlds 1032 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:18,520 Speaker 4: we are, And then you can look at the structure 1033 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,520 Speaker 4: of this multiverse and sort of derive the Born rule 1034 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:24,799 Speaker 4: from it. You can say, okay, well, this is the 1035 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 4: right way to answer questions about probabilities. 1036 00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 1: So the problem with the many worlds interpretation, then, is 1037 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 1: that it keeps the wave function sort of too long. 1038 00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:37,719 Speaker 1: The wave function itself doesn't actually make predictions, as you say, 1039 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,520 Speaker 1: It can be used to make predictions, but if you 1040 00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,440 Speaker 1: just keep the wave function going forever, then how do 1041 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,960 Speaker 1: you actually predict the outcome of an experiment? All right, 1042 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:47,080 Speaker 1: that's fascinating. 1043 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, you need to answer that. And I want to 1044 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,600 Speaker 4: be clear, the many advocates of many worlds generally have 1045 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,799 Speaker 4: answers to that, although I don't think that there's consensus 1046 00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,920 Speaker 4: around one single answer to that among all of the men, 1047 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 4: the advocates of you know, this kind of interpretation. They're 1048 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,440 Speaker 4: aware of this problem and they've addressed it and they 1049 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,080 Speaker 4: have answers to it. So the question isn't you know 1050 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,759 Speaker 4: how do you answer it? The question is does one 1051 00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,080 Speaker 4: or several of the answers that have been provided work? 1052 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,320 Speaker 4: And that is an open question. 1053 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,160 Speaker 1: Awesome, And so before we wrap up, I want to 1054 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,120 Speaker 1: touch on a couple of other ideas. So tho's totally 1055 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 1: different directions people are taking about attacking this deep question 1056 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,320 Speaker 1: about the meaning of the wave function and what measurement means. 1057 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,720 Speaker 1: And one of my favorites is this hidden variable theory 1058 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,799 Speaker 1: or these categories of theories called hidden variable theories, because 1059 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,360 Speaker 1: when I was learning about quantum mechanics, I remember thinking like, well, sure, 1060 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 1: but how do we know it's not like just actually 1061 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,000 Speaker 1: determined by something we're not aware of? 1062 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:45,759 Speaker 4: You know? 1063 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,880 Speaker 1: It feels like maybe our lack of information, this uncertainty 1064 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,279 Speaker 1: in the universe doesn't just come from inherent uncertainty, but 1065 00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,080 Speaker 1: it just comes from like our not seeing the full picture. 1066 00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 1: So maybe there's like something going on behind the scenes 1067 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,799 Speaker 1: that's controlling How do we know that's not the case? 1068 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,439 Speaker 1: How do we know that it's not just like more 1069 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,480 Speaker 1: to the universe that makes it actually deterministic. 1070 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,279 Speaker 4: That's a great question, and you're in really good company there, 1071 00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,200 Speaker 4: as I'm sure you know. You know, Albert Einstein basically 1072 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,839 Speaker 4: had exactly the same question. You know, it's a myth 1073 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,560 Speaker 4: that he never accepted quantum physics. He knew that it worked, 1074 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,160 Speaker 4: and he fully accepted that it worked. He just thought 1075 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:23,879 Speaker 4: it couldn't be the whole story for basically the same 1076 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,880 Speaker 4: reason that you're giving. And in particular, he was very 1077 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:33,560 Speaker 4: unhappy about the idea that things depended on observation and 1078 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,680 Speaker 4: that you couldn't talk about what was happening when you 1079 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,120 Speaker 4: weren't looking. He thought that this was, you know, as 1080 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,640 Speaker 4: you were saying, just kind of avoiding the whole point 1081 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,360 Speaker 4: of science. Science is about figuring out what's in the 1082 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,640 Speaker 4: world and how it works. And he was also really 1083 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:52,560 Speaker 4: concerned about the possibility introduced in quantum physics for what 1084 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,200 Speaker 4: he called spooky action at a distance, these long distance 1085 00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:02,879 Speaker 4: connections between objects, and that is actually directly related, as 1086 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:05,960 Speaker 4: it turns out, to the answer to your question. You know, 1087 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 4: the question, is there something going on that we don't 1088 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:13,319 Speaker 4: know about some you know, hidden properties what we usually 1089 00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 4: call hidden variables of these particles that you know, determine 1090 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 4: their behavior, and we just don't know what they are, 1091 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,719 Speaker 4: and that's where the uncertainty comes from. The answer to 1092 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:28,440 Speaker 4: that that we know is yes, it's possible, but you 1093 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,000 Speaker 4: have to pay a price. The price is spooky action 1094 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:36,560 Speaker 4: at a distance, and that was proven by experiments that 1095 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,799 Speaker 4: were done to test a theorem by John Bell. 1096 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,359 Speaker 1: So we can have a super deterministic universe, but it 1097 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 1: can't be local. We can't also have like everything be 1098 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:49,400 Speaker 1: determined by what's happening right here. 1099 00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,759 Speaker 4: So yeah, I got to be like really pedantic and nitpicky. 1100 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:58,080 Speaker 4: There is actually a class of interpretations called super determinism, 1101 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,920 Speaker 4: and that's something else. But yes, we can have a 1102 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:08,600 Speaker 4: deterministic universe. We can have hidden variables that determine everything 1103 00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,040 Speaker 4: that's going on. But the price we have to pay 1104 00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,640 Speaker 4: is that, you know, things that happen right here can 1105 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:20,680 Speaker 4: instantaneously influence stuff that happens arbitrarily far away, and do 1106 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,240 Speaker 4: so in a way that provably can't be used to 1107 00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:28,760 Speaker 4: send anything information or material faster than the speed of light. 1108 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,880 Speaker 1: All right, So that's super deterministic with a lowercase a 1109 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,400 Speaker 1: s and two words. Yes, what's super determinism god a 1110 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,480 Speaker 1: thingle where with a capital is is that Superman is 1111 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 1: determining the outcome of all these quantum experiments. 1112 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:45,920 Speaker 4: Superdeterminism is the idea of like a hardcore clockwork universe. 1113 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,600 Speaker 4: It's this idea that, oh, we can explain the outcome 1114 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:55,000 Speaker 4: of these Bell experiments without sacrificing locality and without you know, 1115 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,800 Speaker 4: without sacrificing the idea that you know, instantaneous action at 1116 00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,720 Speaker 4: a distance can't happen. We can also do it without 1117 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:06,160 Speaker 4: sacrificing the idea of determinism. But to do that instead, 1118 00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,400 Speaker 4: we have to say, oh, at the beginning of time, 1119 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,200 Speaker 4: in the Big Bang, a whole bunch of really fine 1120 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:20,400 Speaker 4: grained information was encoded into every particle in the universe 1121 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,720 Speaker 4: about the outcomes of those experiments, those Bell experiments that 1122 00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:29,040 Speaker 4: would be conducted, you know, thirteen point eight billion years later. 1123 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,320 Speaker 4: That would arrange for them to turn out in a 1124 00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,360 Speaker 4: way that would trick us into thinking that, you know, 1125 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:38,840 Speaker 4: the universe was non local. 1126 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,720 Speaker 1: So we do these experiments and they seem to suggest 1127 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,200 Speaker 1: the universe is non local, but that's just because they've 1128 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: been cleverly arranged. Fourteen billion years ago to look that way. 1129 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:49,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's super determinism. 1130 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:51,880 Speaker 1: Yeah that's super nuts. 1131 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not super sympathetic to superintminism. 1132 00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:58,240 Speaker 1: But you know, all these ideas are kind of crazy. 1133 00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,800 Speaker 1: All of them have things you might object I guess. 1134 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:02,960 Speaker 1: Then the end the question I have for you is 1135 00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,520 Speaker 1: are we going to figure this out? Or how could 1136 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,800 Speaker 1: we figure this out? Are there experiments we can do 1137 00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,920 Speaker 1: to figure out which of these things are real? Or 1138 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: is it just going to rely on philosophers smoking banana 1139 00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:16,760 Speaker 1: peels and organizing in their minds? 1140 00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,040 Speaker 4: Yeah? No, this is a great question. So the answer depends 1141 00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:23,720 Speaker 4: on what you mean by is there an experiment that 1142 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,240 Speaker 4: we can do? Right? So, if you're asking, is there 1143 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:32,920 Speaker 4: an experiment that we can do to figure out which 1144 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,439 Speaker 4: of these different interpretations of quantum physics is the right 1145 00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:41,840 Speaker 4: way to think about quantum physics right now? The answer 1146 00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:47,400 Speaker 4: to that is no, because they all give the same 1147 00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:52,080 Speaker 4: or almost all give almost all the same outcomes for 1148 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,520 Speaker 4: all experiments provably. I mean, there are some proposals for 1149 00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,760 Speaker 4: solving the measurement problem that aren't just new interpretations but 1150 00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,800 Speaker 4: are actually completely different theories. There's a class of theories 1151 01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:05,720 Speaker 4: called objective collapse theories that modify the Schrodinger equation, those 1152 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:07,920 Speaker 4: can be tested. So yes, some of them can just 1153 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:10,560 Speaker 4: be directly tested, and those tests are sort of ongoing. 1154 01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,480 Speaker 4: But for most of these, like the many World's interpretation 1155 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,960 Speaker 4: or the best known and most developed of the hidden 1156 01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,600 Speaker 4: variables interpretations called Bomian mechanics or de Boi Boem theory 1157 01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:22,960 Speaker 4: or Pilotway theory has a few different names, which is, 1158 01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,120 Speaker 4: you know, non local. And they think that that's like 1159 01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,360 Speaker 4: a good thing about the theory, and that's a whole 1160 01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:29,720 Speaker 4: other story. I'm not saying that to disparage them. I 1161 01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:31,800 Speaker 4: understand why they say that, and I think that that's 1162 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,600 Speaker 4: also a reasonable position. But the point is those two 1163 01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,800 Speaker 4: and you know, many of the other interpretations of quantum 1164 01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:41,400 Speaker 4: mechanics are just that they're interpretations. They all provably give 1165 01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,720 Speaker 4: rise to exactly the same outcomes in all of these experiments, 1166 01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:47,800 Speaker 4: and so if you ask them, well, what's the experimental evidence, 1167 01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,840 Speaker 4: they'd say, all experimental evidence for quantum physics, you know, 1168 01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,400 Speaker 4: is experimental evidence for this interpretation as well. So in 1169 01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:58,200 Speaker 4: that sense, no, there's no experimental way to distinguish between them. 1170 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,560 Speaker 1: Doesn't that mean we just haven't been clever. I mean, 1171 01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,880 Speaker 1: if we have seven theories that all fit the data, 1172 01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:05,560 Speaker 1: it just means we need to come up with a 1173 01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,240 Speaker 1: more clever experiment that can distinguish between those seven theories. Right. 1174 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,240 Speaker 1: Otherwise you have to accept the possibility that there could 1175 01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:16,160 Speaker 1: be multiple theories of physics that work perfectly to describe 1176 01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,160 Speaker 1: our universe, in which case, like the whole project of 1177 01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,400 Speaker 1: physics of coming up with a unique idea to describe 1178 01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,360 Speaker 1: the universe and then interpreting what that idea means is 1179 01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:26,600 Speaker 1: sort of cast into doubt. 1180 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:31,800 Speaker 4: I have some good news and some bad news. Let's 1181 01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,840 Speaker 4: start with the bad news. The bad news is all 1182 01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,720 Speaker 4: of these theories provably give rise to exactly the same 1183 01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:44,600 Speaker 4: mathematics and provably, you know, spit out the same results 1184 01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:50,000 Speaker 4: for the same experiments. And in fact, you can even 1185 01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:55,280 Speaker 4: prove that given the mathematical structure of any scientific theory 1186 01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:59,880 Speaker 4: you could ever devise, there is an infinite number interre 1187 01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,160 Speaker 4: rotations that you could come up with to you know, 1188 01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,840 Speaker 4: explain what's going on in that theory. So that does 1189 01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,440 Speaker 4: sound bad from the perspective of you know, physics and 1190 01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:12,760 Speaker 4: the project of trying to understand what's going on in 1191 01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:17,840 Speaker 4: the world. The good news is that's not actually how 1192 01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,880 Speaker 4: physics works. You know, we don't sit down and say, okay, well, 1193 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,840 Speaker 4: there's an infinite space of possible theories for the mathematical 1194 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,680 Speaker 4: structure that we devised, and so now we need to 1195 01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,120 Speaker 4: try to narrow that infinite space. That's not how we 1196 01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,680 Speaker 4: do physics. How we do physics and how we do 1197 01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,160 Speaker 4: science more generally, is we say, okay, well, look, we 1198 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:36,840 Speaker 4: have these ideas about how nature works. And these ideas 1199 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,720 Speaker 4: come from a variety of places. They come from the 1200 01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,640 Speaker 4: results of experiments. They come from older theories that we 1201 01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:44,880 Speaker 4: had that worked and now seem to be breaking down. 1202 01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:49,360 Speaker 4: They come from new theoretical ideas that we've been kicking 1203 01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:53,720 Speaker 4: around because we like them. And they come from you know, 1204 01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:58,680 Speaker 4: preconceived cultural and social norms, and you know, mythology and 1205 01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,960 Speaker 4: storytelling and whatnot. You know, just ideas that we have 1206 01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,840 Speaker 4: about the world. And all of that goes into the 1207 01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:09,720 Speaker 4: process of judgment that is made when new theories are 1208 01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,960 Speaker 4: developed and choices are made about how to interpret those theories. 1209 01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:15,640 Speaker 1: It sounds like you're talking about a meta level of 1210 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,120 Speaker 1: measurement where we're like measuring the ability of an experiment 1211 01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,600 Speaker 1: to satisfy our need to understand the universe exactly. 1212 01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:26,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not wrong. But the thing is that's actually 1213 01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:31,160 Speaker 4: good news when it comes to the question of interpreting 1214 01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:33,760 Speaker 4: quantum physics and finding out which, if any of these 1215 01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,520 Speaker 4: is the best way to think about quantum physics, because 1216 01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,000 Speaker 4: we know we're not done. You know, the one thing 1217 01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,240 Speaker 4: aside from the success of quantum physics that I think 1218 01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:47,200 Speaker 4: that you could get everyone in you know, the world 1219 01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,640 Speaker 4: of quantum foundations, in the world of physics more generally 1220 01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:54,680 Speaker 4: to agree upon, is that we are not done in 1221 01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,440 Speaker 4: our search for the fundamental laws of the universe. We know, 1222 01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:02,360 Speaker 4: if nothing else, that we have not found a way 1223 01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,800 Speaker 4: to get our best theory of gravity general relativity to 1224 01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:10,560 Speaker 4: work with our best theories of you know, quantum physics, 1225 01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:12,800 Speaker 4: you know, quantum field theory and the standard model of 1226 01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:15,960 Speaker 4: particle physics. And we also know that that standard model 1227 01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,880 Speaker 4: is not just missing gravity, but is also missing things 1228 01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:21,600 Speaker 4: like dark energy and dark matter. So we know that 1229 01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:24,360 Speaker 4: we're not done, and so that means we're still on 1230 01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,760 Speaker 4: the hunt for new theories. And one of the things 1231 01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,040 Speaker 4: that goes into the mix when coming up with new 1232 01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:36,600 Speaker 4: theories is the interpretations of old theories. So the way 1233 01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:41,240 Speaker 4: we think about quantum physics now can influence the hunt 1234 01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,800 Speaker 4: for the next theory that will go beyond our current 1235 01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,880 Speaker 4: understanding of physics, and it also goes backwards. If and 1236 01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:53,320 Speaker 4: when we come up with that theory, it will probably 1237 01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:57,960 Speaker 4: suggest to us an experiment that can be conducted that 1238 01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:01,920 Speaker 4: would distinguish between some or all of the existing options 1239 01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,320 Speaker 4: on the table for interpreting quantum mechanics. 1240 01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:07,960 Speaker 1: Yay. I have faith in the future of experimental physicists 1241 01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,080 Speaker 1: to get us out of this jam by coming up 1242 01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:14,439 Speaker 1: with a clever new experiment. Yeah, we should all right. Well, 1243 01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,560 Speaker 1: that's wonderful. Thank you very much, Adam. I think it's 1244 01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:21,400 Speaker 1: been a delightful journey through the problems and possible solutions 1245 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,200 Speaker 1: to the questions at the heart of quantum mechanics. And 1246 01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:26,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad that there's still a lot of work to 1247 01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:29,360 Speaker 1: do because us quantum physicists will still have a job. 1248 01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:31,800 Speaker 1: So thanks Adam very much for joining us and for 1249 01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:34,800 Speaker 1: explaining these things so clearly. Before we go, do you 1250 01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:37,440 Speaker 1: want to tell our listeners about any upcoming projects you 1251 01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:39,440 Speaker 1: have or places they can find you other than your 1252 01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:41,160 Speaker 1: excellent book What Is Real? 1253 01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:43,760 Speaker 4: First, I just want to encourage people go find my 1254 01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:48,880 Speaker 4: book if you like hearing about these things. I like 1255 01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,560 Speaker 4: talking about them, but I like writing about them even more. 1256 01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,840 Speaker 4: And there's you know, three hundred pages of it available 1257 01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:56,840 Speaker 4: wherever find books are sold. If you want to find 1258 01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,800 Speaker 4: me on Twitter or really almost anywhere else, my Twitter 1259 01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:05,800 Speaker 4: name and online handle is freelance Astro, so i'm you know, 1260 01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:09,560 Speaker 4: on most social media under that name, and my website 1261 01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,000 Speaker 4: is freelanceastro dot com and you can find links to 1262 01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,520 Speaker 4: my latest work there. And yeah, aside from that, I 1263 01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:20,520 Speaker 4: am working on another book about science and Silicon Valley, 1264 01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,440 Speaker 4: but it will not be out for another couple of years. 1265 01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,000 Speaker 4: It's still in the very early stages. But yeah, if 1266 01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,400 Speaker 4: this sort of thing is interesting to you, please have 1267 01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:30,200 Speaker 4: a look at my book. 1268 01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,160 Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks again for coming on, and I 1269 01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:35,479 Speaker 1: hope your next book collapses into a very readable pile 1270 01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:37,800 Speaker 1: just like the first one. Thank you best of luck 1271 01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,360 Speaker 1: with that, and thanks again for coming on. Thanks thanks 1272 01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:40,840 Speaker 1: for having me. 1273 01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:41,560 Speaker 4: This was a lot of. 1274 01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:43,800 Speaker 1: Fun, and thanks to all you listeners for coming along 1275 01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:47,240 Speaker 1: on another ride of curiosity where we investigate what the 1276 01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,760 Speaker 1: universe actually means and try to explain it all to you. 1277 01:06:50,800 --> 01:07:00,960 Speaker 1: Tune in next time. Thanks really listening and remember that 1278 01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,920 Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. 1279 01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:10,360 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 1280 01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:24,400 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 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