WEBVTT - Aphantasia: Blindness of the Mind's Eye 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:05.720 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from House Stop 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:15.280 work dot Com. Okay, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:17.799 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:23.160 today's episode, concerns the mind's eye, concerns mental imagery, and 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:25.720 so we decided that the best way to kick off 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.040 this episode is to take you on a little guided 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.479 mental journey. YEA, so close your eyes unless you're driving 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:34.600 or doing something that requires your eyes to be open, 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:36.479 and in that case, don't close your eyes if you 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:38.839 If you are able to close your eyes, close your 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:43.120 eyes if not. Just imagine you're eight years old and 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:47.240 you're walking along a beach with your mother, your barefoot. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.199 The tide is coming in, and you see trails of 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.240 footprints leading back and forth along the beach where other 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.160 people have walked the same path today. But the waves 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.279 are coming higher and higher and slowly smoothing all those 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.640 footprints away. But then you look up at your mother 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:08.480 and you notice something strange. She's wearing armor, a steel 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.440 chest plate and a visored helm with chainmail drooping across 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.880 her arms and legs, rustling lightly as she walks across 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:19.520 the front of her chest plate is a painted figure. 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:25.039 It's Foghorn, Leghorn. She raises the visor on her helm 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:28.039 and smiles at you. A mosquito hovers in front of 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:31.440 her face, and she flails one arm to knock it away, 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:34.840 and you both laugh. But then you notice something else. 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.120 Your mother has a piece of metal dangling from her 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.360 hip opposite you. It's a long sword. She puts one 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.760 hand on the hilt and says, don't worry, only a 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:48.800 bit of insurance in case he shows up. A wave 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.400 of seawater rolls up over your feet, washing dry sand 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.040 from between your toes, and you ask who. Then there's 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.280 a faint rumbling under your feet. It's not just the 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:04.040 tickling of the waves. The ground is shaking, and about 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:07.400 two out in the water, a dark shape begins to 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.600 rise up from the waves. At first it's just a green, 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:16.520 black lump, but then the huge glaring eyes, the cavernous mouth, 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:21.800 climbing higher and higher as it approaches. It's Godzilla. Not 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.720 the friendly Godzilla who defends Earth against all the heel monsters. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.360 This is the angry Godzilla who breathes beams of radiation 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.320 and crushes ten story buildings with a single swipe. Your 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.360 mother puts an arm across your chest. She draws her 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:40.079 long sword and says stand back. This could get serious, 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.760 And with the flip of a switch, her hover boots engage, 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.320 her feet lift off the ground, and then she's rocketing 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:51.079 towards the head of the monster to defend the realms 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.920 of humankind. Alright, so, uh, we we try to draw 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:58.640 in a few different types of of imagery. There are 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.360 a few different types of memory memories. Right. We wanted 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.120 to have sort of generic landscape that would be easy 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:05.840 for a lot of people to picture, like a beach. 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.320 Most people have some kind of image, generically of what 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.600 a beach looks like. We also wanted something familiar. Usually 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.680 they say to picture a relative or familiar family member. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.520 So hopefully you've got an image of a mother or 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.480 family figure there. But then also some pop culture images. Right, 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:24.560 most people hopefully know what Godzilla looks like. If you don't, 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.240 you gotta go back and watch the original Godzilla from 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.280 the fifties and right, uh, and then uh and then 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.320 fall horn like horn and personal favorite of mine. You know. 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.320 One of the interesting things with this exercise is to 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.240 think back on it and think back of the specifics 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.520 and ask yourself questions like who did I have a 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.520 more vivid memory of what I looked like as a child, 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.800 what my mother looked like, what Godzilla looked like, and 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.360 in these details are not necessarily telling of your relationship 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:59.080 with your mother versus your relationship with Godzilla. But but 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.360 but it it kind of raises our awareness of the 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:07.480 vast spectrum of visual stimuli that are informing our our 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.400 inner vision of the world. Yeah, and this is a 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.800 strange thing because the only person who can experience your 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.720 mental imagery is you. You can sort of describe your 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.359 mental imagery to other people, but nobody can take a 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.839 look at it to see what it is you're picturing 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.600 in your mind. So this is something that you largely 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.279 have to deal with entirely on your own, and you 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.640 don't know how similar or how different your own process 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.480 of mental imagery is to that of other people unless 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.000 you really put your heads together and start talking about 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.720 your mental images and detail and trying to figure out 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.880 if their differences. It's not a standard thing that people do, 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.680 really right, because even to describe it, if I describe 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.359 my mental images to you, they become your mental images. 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:50.680 Like it's in a way I'm kind of panting off 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.480 the blueprints, and then you build a different building. It's 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.720 the same building, but a different building. And likewise, maybe 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.320 you paint, maybe you write, and some other artistic medium, 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.320 you create music to try and convey these images in 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.000 your head, but you're still but you're still then limited 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.520 by your artist artistic ability and then under people's interpretations 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:12.880 of those works of art. You know, I already realized. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:14.760 I didn't think about this when I was writing this, 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.760 but I did already see a contradiction in what I 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.560 told people to imagine the original angry Godzilla. But then 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:25.119 I also said green black, right, Well, Godzilla in color 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.799 is sort of greenish black, but the original angry Godzilla 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.280 black and white. He's just you know, you look at 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.839 him and he just looks like this charred monster. You know. 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:38.040 So this is a this is already a mental confabulation 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.840 on my part. I'm imagining a Godzilla that never existed 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:46.400 anywhere in reality. But anyway, so most of you were 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.440 with us there on that journey. You were to some 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.720 extent able to picture some of the things we were 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.800 talking about. You could see in your mind's eye the beach, 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.640 the armor, your mother, the sword, the fog Horn, Leghorn, 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:02.640 the Godzilla. But there are some people who probably couldn't 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.360 see any of that. They were there with us, they 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.960 were understanding the concepts, they were able to follow the plot, 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.280 whatever plot there was, and they could probably recount a 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.720 list of the events that happened in the little scene 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:19.400 we just described, but they couldn't see any of it 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.400 in their imagination. And this is the concept we're gonna 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.760 be talking about today. One study has found that this 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.400 might be about up to one in fifty people who 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.919 have this kind of experience where they just don't create 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:37.240 pictures inside their mind the way most people do. Uh 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.760 And this condition now hasn't come to be known as 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:45.720 a fantasia or the blindness of the mind's I So, 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.440 the American biotech leader Craig Venter, you know about him, right. 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:51.680 He's famous for being a leader in the quest of 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.920 sequence the human genome, and he's famous for creating a 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.800 synthetic organisms. Uh So, he has actually described that he 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.880 has an unusual way of thinking, a way of thinking 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:07.360 that's essentially purely conceptual, like we've been describing, without any 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:11.960 mental imagery. Venter says, quote, it's like having a computer 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:16.080 store the information, but you don't have a screen attached 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:20.240 to the computer. He's describing his own mind. I don't know. 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:24.400 I I have trouble understanding what that would be like. 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.400 But maybe maybe to understand it better, we should first 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.240 look at some facts about what the mind's eye itself 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.960 is before we get into the blindness of the mind's eye. 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.840 What's going on when you create pictures in your head. Well, 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.960 of course we're talking about mental imagery here, but also 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.520 there's some other sensations thrown in as well. It all 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:48.880 amounts to a quasi perceptional experience that occurs in the 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:54.120 absence of the appropriate external stimuli. Um. So, I can 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.880 close my eyes, I can see a deceased loved one's face. 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.360 I can hear their voice. I can imagine myself standing 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.440 on the shore of a distant ocean, past ocean, or 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.120 even some future sure that I haven't even walked on yet. 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.520 I mean, this, this is the kind of thing that 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:09.680 I mean, most of us take for granted. We can, 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.920 we use it, we employ it every day. Um Well, 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.440 I mean, as I did with the Angry Godzilla and color, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.400 you can picture things you've never actually seen, right, Yeah, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.880 you can? Yeah, there are things. If you're like me, 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.800 I feel there are things in books. For instance, no 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.320 one has ever painted a picture of this character or 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:30.440 this scene. Uh, and yet you have a very crystal 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.080 clear vision, Like I have a better visual memory of 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.959 some things that have occurred in books than things that 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.360 have occurred in real life. You know. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.400 I know exactly what you're talking about. Uh Is isn't 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.200 it so weird to finally see a book you've read 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:48.320 but it's never been illustrated or made into a film 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:51.600 or anything finally made visual by someone else? It's always 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.200 people always have the same reaction. That's not what I thought. 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.400 So and so looked, like, let's know what it looks like. Yeah. Now, 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.880 the things we perceive in the mind's eye, they're they're 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.640 products of memory. They're constructed from specific or varied memories. 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.640 They may be accurate, they may be amalgams of diverse influences. Really, 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.320 this runs the gamut from something you saw yesterday that 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.560 you near perfectly remember, to have you know, a vague 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.200 site from your childhood that you at least think you remember, 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.920 to an envisioned future scene in your own life, something 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.520 you dreamt, something you daydreamed, landscape, be viewed from the 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.160 imagined walls of a fictional world, or your own creation 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:29.520 of a of an author's creation. It's just like pretty 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.200 much any time we are envisioning something, any time we 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.280 are closing our eyes or even with our eyes open 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.760 are imagining something, we are seeing something in our mind 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:43.240 that is, of course the mind's eye, uh, doing its thing. Yeah. 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:47.599 And I think this has always been a very interesting 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:52.280 avenue for philosophy to investigate, because it is something that 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.839 we recognized was sort of strange about the human experience 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.640 before we had neuroscience or psychology or or any of 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.439 these scientific ways of investigating it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.840 because because it it obviously plays such a central role 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:08.920 in the way we navigate the world and the way 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.360 we think about time and a world of movable objects. Right. Um. 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.760 And so yeah, we've been as long as we've had philosophers, 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.719 as long as we've had people among us with with 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.200 time to you know, look up from their labors and 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.360 think about the human condition, we've been thinking about the 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.880 mind's eye. Um. On the podcast here, we've talked about 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:34.040 the method of loki before the the ancient Greek technique 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:40.439 in which person utilizes spatial memory to memorize nonspatial information. Uh. Look, 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.120 that kind of plays into into some of this. That 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.760 involves a certain amount of a reflection on what's on 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.600 how we're using the mind's eye. You know. I I've 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.920 tried to use the method of LOCAI and I have 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.000 not been very good at it. Yeah, I wonder if 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.600 I'm just not doing it right, like I when I'm 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.720 able to to really get it set in my mind 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.160 as help me remember. By the way, this is so 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:04.400 a quick version of it is, if you need to 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.079 make a list of digits of numbers to remember, you're 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.640 not going to remember those digits. So instead you imagine 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:15.320 your house being full of odd characters that each embody 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:19.000 one of the digits in that number sequence, and then 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.320 you can remember by picturing the room and where all 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.439 of the odd characters were in the room, and then 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.560 you just remember what digit they correspond to or something 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.000 like that. Yeah. Like a very simplified version of this 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:33.719 that I have employed frequently in the past. It's kind 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.319 of like a um uh you know, often called the 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:41.120 memory palace because it's an imagined place that you fill 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.240 with these examples. But oftentimes I only have room in 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.199 my mind for one example, and that is, uh, that's 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.640 when I am a swimming lapse and I want to 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:53.520 remember what number lap I'm on, because if I forget 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.319 the lap number, then I'm going to make myself revert 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.920 to the to the lower number. So if I if 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:01.839 I don't know for sure I'm on four, I'm gonna 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.160 do three. And I don't want to keep doing one 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.120 less than I want to do because I'm gonna wear 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.640 myself out right. But I'm also busy swimming. I'm having 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:14.360 a hard time necessarily remembering which lap I am currently on. 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.480 So instead of trying to remember four, as easy as 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.800 that would seem, I find it easier to just force 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.120 myself to think of, say, the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:25.319 like think of think of that, and that'll stick in 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.240 my head just a little better as I'm you know, 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.480 vigorously of swimming these laps um, you know, So it'll 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.480 just be some sort of visual association with just a 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.640 single digit. I don't know, I don't know if anybody 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:39.960 else out there has has done something of that that 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.640 that nature, but that is kind of a simplified um, good, creamy, 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.800 what's what's your visual image. For eight, I can't think 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.840 of anything for eight. Oh, for eight, I think of 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.280 Alan robe Gerlays the Voyeur, where you have a character 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.760 who keeps making figure eights out of rope. Yeah, so 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.600 I think of him setting by the shore, um, not 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.200 quite contemplating horrible things and making little figure eights. That's 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.040 a good thing to have in your mind here at 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.080 the gym or the y m c A guess wherever 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.559 you swim laps. So one of the important things when 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.760 when thinking about the memory Palace and then ultimately thinking 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.760 about memory and the mind's eye, is just to to 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.240 refresh here a little bit about human memory itself. Human 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.600 memory is not just like a tape, real rolling in 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:27.800 the brain that we just oh, let's go back and 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.080 look and see what happened yesterday. Human memory in multiple ways. 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.760 It's not multiple certainly not that accurate, right, because human 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:38.240 memory consists of several different types of memory that are 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.680 working in uh kind of an unequal chorus um to 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.360 create the human experience of memory that we have. So 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:49.000 we have sensory memory, um, you know what something feels like, 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.400 what it smells, it smells like, that sort of thing. 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.000 We have short term memory, and we have long term 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.200 term memory. We have and then we divide long term 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.920 memory out. We have explicit memories of consciousness, we have 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:05.360 implicit memories of unconsciousness. We have declarative memories of facts 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:09.120 and events. We have procedural memories involved that involves skills 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.959 and tasks. We have episodic memory that deals with events 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.280 and experiences, and we have semantic memory that concerns facts 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.360 and concepts. So we have all these different types of memories, 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.360 each one dealing with in a way certain you know, 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.280 different types of skills, different types of ways of utilizing 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.880 memory when we engage with the world. And studies have 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:31.960 shown in the past that, uh, if you have a 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:33.840 part of the brain associated with the one type of 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.600 memory is injured, sometimes you see those other types of 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.160 memory compensating. So it's like a a in a way, 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.880 it's like a staff. It's like a staff of different 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.200 memory drones, and they all have their jobs to do. 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.720 But if somebody is slacking, then it may fall to 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.120 another employee to uh to to you know, to step 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.000 up and and cover for their shortcomings. Yeah. I think 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.120 that's a good metaphor that the brain is more like 0:14:57.160 --> 0:14:59.600 a workforce than a machine. If one part of a 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.600 machine and breaks, the whole machine probably isn't gonna work. 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.600 But if one part of a workforce is slacking or 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.160 calls in sick today, the others can often find a 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.600 way to cover for them, right, And they might cover 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:12.760 you know, everyone does their job a little bit differently, 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.280 so their their skill set might allow them to cover 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.000 in a slightly different way. But back to philosophers. So 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.640 philosophers have continue to argue about the minds, and we're 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.560 certainly not gonna be able to do an exhausted journey 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.160 through all of their their takes. But you go back 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.880 as far as Plato, for example, when Plato brought us 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.680 one of the most famous examples of this. Uh, he 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.560 utilizes mental images in his famous allegory of the Cave. Yeah, 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.880 and that's sort of the idea that the world that 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.720 we perceive is not the true reality, you know. But 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.040 Plato had this whole belief in ideal forms, you know, 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.520 things that were the more true version of the thing 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.720 than the thing we're familiar with. Right, there's a realm 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.480 of forms out there, and in that realm of forms, 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.200 there's such thing as a perfect chair. But in this 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.920 world that we can only build in perfect chairs that 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.680 inch maybe a little closer and closer towards that unobtainable ideal. Yeah, 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.440 And so his metaphor for explaining this was that of 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.760 the cave, where there are people who are chained up 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:12.760 in a cave and they don't even really realize that 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.440 they're in a cave, and uh, and there's an opening 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.880 to the cave through which light comes through and figures 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.440 pass in front of the opening to the cave, casting 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.400 shadows on the wall of the cave, and all we 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:25.920 see we're facing the back of the cave of the wall, 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:28.520 and we see the shadows, and we think the shadows 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.880 are the real things, but they're not there. They're only 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.240 the the sort of like the vague outlines of the 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.800 things that that are the true forms. If anyone out 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.600 there is watching The Path on Hulu, there's actually a 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.400 scene um in the first episode where they roll out 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.800 this this allegory and it's it's pretty entertaining, but but 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.120 I mean, certainly it's an it's an allegory. You can 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:56.160 have a lot of fun with either trying to contrast 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.400 your worldview to another individual's worldview, to try and win 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:03.760 someone over with your true version of reality versus there 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.760 they're you know, their illusion based understanding of reality. But 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.760 it also gets down to like what is our perception 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.399 of reality itself? These mental images that fill our mind 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:18.560 when we close our eyes, those are imperfect. But also 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:20.600 the mental images when we have our eyes open, we're 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.280 still just in a sense, we are still just seeing 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.119 those shadows on the walls of the cave. Yeah. So 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.879 Aristotle also referred to mental imagery and his work referred 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.320 to it as a as a fantasia with an A 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.680 with a P, not an APR, not the Disney movie. Uh. 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.400 And this was central to his theory of memory. Yeah, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.280 though you know, I can see why the Disney movie 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.520 would be called that, I mean they it evokes the 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.240 concept of fantasy, even though he didn't I think directly 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.200 mean fantasy and the way we do, like somebody coming 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.520 up with a with a fantasy to escape from life. Yeah, 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.600 it was the idea of being able to to imagine 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:02.240 things in your mind. Now. Reneed I Carts also thought 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.159 a lot about mental imagery and how they form in 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:08.000 the mind. Uh. The view that an idea is a 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:12.600 quasi perceptual thing, perhaps even pictorial formed in the imagination, 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.480 and he did distinguish between images formed in the brain 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.560 and ideas in the mind. Because he was a duelist. 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.399 He saw uh, he saw the mind and the body 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.159 as separate. The essence of mind is thought, and the 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.480 body is an extension of it. Thoughts are not extended 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.840 in space, but the body is. Now, that's where in 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.000 philosophy you have. You have like idealism, which states that 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.480 reality is equivalent to mental images, and the mental images 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.080 are reality itself. Well, yeah, I mean, if you want 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:42.159 to take this very far, the people who believe in 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.840 hard core idealism would probably say that there is no 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.800 like that reality is merely the mental image of a 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.480 higher being or something like that. Yeah. So, as you 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.160 can see, you can really go down the deep end, 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:58.399 into the deep end contemplating mental imagery and what are 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:02.760 the philosophical ramifications of it. Um, there's a you know, 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:04.639 there's a lot, There's a great deal more we can 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.720 discuss this kind of the philosophical groundwork. I guess you 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.200 could say. Um. For instance, though in the nineteen eighties 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.240 there's a great deal of debate over the over the 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:17.359 connection from between mental images and language. So one side 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:21.920 argued that representations underlying the experience of mental imagery are 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.000 the same type as those used in the language. And 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.000 then there was the other camp, and they held that 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:30.320 that these representations served to depict, not describe objects. Okay, 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:32.680 so what does that mean in practice? Well, my understanding 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.119 is that basically comes down to, you know, to what 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.480 extent is mental imagery like the the the groundwork of 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.960 language itself. Um Well, like I said earlier, at times, 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.159 it feels like it's it's very difficult to um to 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:51.560 overstate the importance of mental imagery in our perceptions of reality. 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.639 Um So, just how deep does that go? Does it 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.880 underlie just about everything in cognition? Does an underlie language? 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:03.960 Does it underlie um, just every little detail of our experience? Yeah, well, 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:06.480 this does seem to sort of tie into us stuff 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:08.359 we talked about in the Tip of the Tongue episode, 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:12.680 where you can you can perhaps you can have the 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:14.960 face in your mind, you know, oh, I know this 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.359 actor's face, and you can picture it, and you can 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:22.040 know the actor's name well enough that if somebody said it, 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.119 you'd be like, yeah, that's it. You'd immediately recognize it. 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.720 But you can't make the connection but of course, in 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:31.960 recent years we've seen the study of mental imagery make 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.080 a more scientific transition. I think we we've started to 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.360 look at it from a neuroscientific point of view, where 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:41.119 people are saying, Okay, well, let's identify what brain regions 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:44.320 are actually being used and activated when people are in 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:48.000 the process of coming up with mental pictures. And one 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:49.720 of the sources we used for this episode, it was 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.119 a paper by Adams Zalman and colleagues, and and uh, 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:58.879 these authors identify that essentially in the brain voluntary imagery 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:01.399 that the mental images you come up with have been 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.960 associated in previous research with the brains frontal parietal executive 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:09.400 systems or of the executive control you know, the president 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.439 of your brain sitting there directing traffic, and with the 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:15.119 posterior brain regions, which you know in the back of 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:19.800 the brain that's often the identified with visual processing. And 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.679 together you sort of put these things, uh into a 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.600 teamwork relationship, and they are what allows you to come 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.280 up with mental pictures. That's right. And uh, we've also 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:34.480 seen studies where taking f M R I, we've done 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.800 p and we've done pet scans on individuals summoning mental images. 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:39.960 You know, they're asked to summon a mental image, and 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:41.679 then we look at the brain see what it's doing 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:45.320 in real time, and uh reveals that activation in brain 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:49.000 areas that are used in visual perception, which doesn't sound 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.840 that surprising. Uh, this is pretty cool. Visual and mental 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:56.720 imaging share roughly two thirds of the same active activated 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.600 brain regions. So there's a lot of a lot of 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:03.040 cross over there between the visual and mental imaging systems, 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.199 a lot of shared mechanics. Yeah, Like if, for example, 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:09.200 if you show somebody a picture of somebody's face and 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:12.800 then you ask the same test subject imagine this person's face, 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:14.679 a lot of their brain activity is going to be 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:19.359 roughly similar. Right. In fact, study found that when the 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:23.280 same task is performed in perception and then with eyes 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:29.679 closed using mental images, you get overlaps. So so again, 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.040 a lot of the same mechanisms, a lot of the 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.439 same brain equipment is being used, whether you're dealing with 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.440 just visual perception or mental perception. Of course, that's funny 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:46.040 because the phenomenal experience is completely different, right, Like you, uh, 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:49.520 somebody to somebody who has a fantasia. This might be 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:51.960 new information, but it's obviously not going to be new 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.880 information to most people out there. Uh, when you picture 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.680 something in your mind's eye, it is extremely different than 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:02.680 seeing it in front of you. But it's hard to 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:06.600 explain how it's different. Yeah, you know, Yeah, you know. 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:10.400 There's a there's a two thousand fIF BBC article titled 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:14.840 a Fantasia A Life without Mental Images by James Gallagher, 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:16.840 and I'll be sure to include a link to that 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.200 article on the landing page for this episode Stuff to 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:22.399 Blow your Mind dot com because in addition to running 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:26.199 through some examples of uh, some accounts of individuals who 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:29.040 have this blindness of the mind's eye, which we're going 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:32.320 to discuss more here, there's also a quiz you can take, uh, 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:36.120 and it's just an eight question quiz about asking you 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:39.240 like the level of detail that you experience when you 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:43.119 are asked to mentally envision uh, you know someone you 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:47.280 see every day? Uh, A sunrise, I believe, clouds in 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:49.920 the sky, the clouds clearing in the sky, a thunderstorm, 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:51.879 the the these sort of images some of the same 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:54.320 kind of stuff that we ask you to summon at 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:56.479 the beginning of this episode. Yeah, but it doesn't just 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:58.720 ask you can you picture it? It asks you to 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:02.360 rank level of details. So, for example, it might say, picture, 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:05.399 get someone in mind, and maybe a close friend or 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:10.600 spouse or close family member, and picture that person, and 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.240 then on a scale of not very well at all, 0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:17.320 too extremely well, how well can you see in your 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:20.520 mind's eye the contours of their face and the shape 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.840 of their body, and what color their eyes are, and 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:27.480 and so it's asking for specific details of the image 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:30.840 to get at the vividness of the picture in your mind. 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:33.360 And that suggests to me, and I think their findings 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:36.480 do suggest so far that it's not just an on 0:24:36.680 --> 0:24:39.159 off switch. It's not like you can make pictures with 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:42.200 your mind or you can't. There seems to be a spectrum. 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:47.320 Some people seem to have very intense, very lucid, vivid 0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:51.760 mental images. Other people have kind of hazier, blurrier or 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:54.960 more generic mental images. And some people have almost no 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:58.560 mental imagery at all, or even report having none. And 0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:01.239 it's so at the opposite into the scale of the 0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:04.600 main topic today. You know, we're talking about these a fantasiacs, 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:08.520 but there's also what's come to be known as hyper fantasia, right, 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:11.800 And these would be people who I think would experience 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:15.359 visions of the mind ie with just extreme lucidity is 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:17.919 far compared to most of us. So they're not just 0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:21.920 vague pictures, but they have bright colors and vivid details. 0:25:21.920 --> 0:25:25.680 So if I tell you imagine a beach, you might 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:30.439 picture sand and waves and maybe some umbrellas. But I 0:25:30.480 --> 0:25:33.560 bet you wouldn't naturally say, Okay, I can tell you 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:36.560 there are seven umbrellas in the picture in my mind, 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:40.159 and these are the colors of stripes on the umbrellas. 0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:43.600 But somebody might actually be able to have that level 0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:47.639 of vividness in their mind's eye. Yeah. This idea of 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:52.960 a spectrum of of of mental detail and visual imagery, 0:25:52.960 --> 0:25:56.840 it uh, it really makes you reanalyze just how you're 0:25:56.880 --> 0:25:59.879 painting the picture in your head of these memories, you know, 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:02.240 I get. I think we both scored around the same 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:05.200 on this where we had kind of like typical image. 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:08.560 I was in the typical range. Yeah, But even even 0:26:08.560 --> 0:26:11.040 then I was I found myself asking questions like, well, 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:13.520 how when I think about these people that I see 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:15.520 every day in my life and they are very important 0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:17.800 to me, Uh, you know, what does it mean that 0:26:17.880 --> 0:26:21.000 I don't have like just a picture perfect vision of them? 0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:23.119 What Does it mean that when I think back on 0:26:23.160 --> 0:26:25.480 a beach, I find my like a sunrise on a beach, 0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:29.679 I keep thinking of, you know, images of sunrises from 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:34.159 paintings and films more so than actual beach sunrises that 0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:36.119 I've witnessed. Do you think about the final scene of 0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:38.439 the Warriors? Yeah, that sort of thing. Like I end 0:26:38.520 --> 0:26:41.760 up like putting a fictional Instagram filter over all of 0:26:41.800 --> 0:26:45.719 these these memories, and I'm not really remembering. I'm not 0:26:45.760 --> 0:26:48.879 really summoning a mental image of a thing I actually saw. 0:26:49.240 --> 0:26:53.560 I'm summoning this mental image that's composed of these varying elements. 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:56.200 You know. One thing I read when we were doing 0:26:56.200 --> 0:26:59.000 our research for this episode was a first person essay 0:26:59.040 --> 0:27:02.640 that I came across the software designer Blake Ross, who 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:06.080 was involved in Mozilla Firefox on Facebook, and he's also 0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:09.480 done some screenwriting, and he found out after reading an 0:27:09.560 --> 0:27:12.040 article I think in either in the New York Times 0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:15.560 or in Discover magazine by Carl Zimmer about a fantasia 0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:19.159 that he he had this experience, and he also was 0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:22.240 just shocked to find out that other people weren't like him. 0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:26.720 His discovery was that, oh, I never realized other people 0:27:26.760 --> 0:27:29.359 could see pictures in their minds. His whole life, he 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:32.800 thought when people said stuff like picture this, they were 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:36.480 just being metaphorical. He didn't realize other people could actually 0:27:36.520 --> 0:27:40.000 hold these pictures in their brains. And in this essay 0:27:40.080 --> 0:27:43.359 he starts he recounts how when he found out about this, 0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:45.520 he was asking all his friends, what's it like to 0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:48.440 picture something in your mind? And asking all these questions 0:27:48.440 --> 0:27:51.080 I've never really thought to ask myself about my process 0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:53.879 of mental imagery that we're very interesting, like he was 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:56.080 asking his friends, Okay, when you see a picture in 0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:59.520 your mind, like you picture a beach, is it still? 0:27:59.640 --> 0:28:01.639 Is it a still photograph? Or is it more like 0:28:01.800 --> 0:28:06.560 video where things are moving? And that distinction just hit 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:09.800 me like a wrecking ball. I was like, I don't know. 0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:13.359 When I picture something in my mind, I can make 0:28:13.400 --> 0:28:15.960 it move consciously if I need to. But when I 0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:20.160 just picture a beach, it is almost neither still nor moving. 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:24.040 It is it exists in super position between these two things. 0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:26.879 It's kept for me, I guess when I think about it, 0:28:26.880 --> 0:28:29.920 it's kind of like the old music video for What 0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:31.800 Was It? Where the people go into the painting or 0:28:31.840 --> 0:28:34.800 into the drawing on take on Me. Yeah, yeah, I 0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:36.840 feel like my my mental imagery is kind of like 0:28:37.000 --> 0:28:40.680 the take on Me video. It's stuff is moving, but 0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:43.520 it's all kind of station are as. Well. Yeah, well, 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:47.120 I mean, I certainly can imagine something moving on purpose, 0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:50.880 But when I just picture a thing and I don't 0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:54.080 imagine it moving on purpose, I don't think it's still 0:28:54.120 --> 0:28:57.680 but it's not moving either. It's very strange. It reminds 0:28:57.720 --> 0:29:00.280 me of two of the experience of reading a book, 0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:02.120 especially a book that is set more or less in 0:29:02.120 --> 0:29:05.760 the real world, And at times I'll find myself stopping 0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:09.760 and thinking about, like, oh, I'm picturing this in this 0:29:09.840 --> 0:29:13.520 living room from that I that I visited or lived 0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:15.480 in at some point in my life, Like that, for 0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:17.520 some reason, is the living room that my brain is 0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:21.600 drawing in for this setting where I'm picturing this character. Sometimes, 0:29:21.640 --> 0:29:24.080 you know, sometimes the character just is that character and 0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:28.400 that and there's not really like a firm mental image 0:29:28.400 --> 0:29:30.840 in your head exactly what they look like. Other times 0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:36.440 you can't shake their um their appearance as being that 0:29:36.640 --> 0:29:39.640 of someone you know or or you know a character 0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:43.200 actor from a movie, etcetera. But I do find myself 0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:45.880 like analyzing, like where are all these elements coming from Like, 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:48.400 some of them are obviously coming from the author. The 0:29:48.440 --> 0:29:53.200 author is providing the blueprint, the author is providing the scaffolding. 0:29:53.480 --> 0:29:56.320 But then that scaffolding is kind of like magnetically drawing 0:29:56.360 --> 0:30:00.080 in elements from my own visual memory. Yeah, definitely, I 0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:03.240 know exactly what you're talking about. There. Uh. An interesting 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:06.240 thing about fiction that that Blake Ross says in his 0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:08.840 first person essay about this is he He reports that, 0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:11.360 so he's always read books, you know, he's enjoyed fiction, 0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:14.040 and he's written fiction. But when he writes fiction, he 0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:17.880 has almost no visual description because he just doesn't picture 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:20.960 things in his head. And when he reads, he skips 0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:23.680 visual description. He just kind of jumps over it. That's 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:26.960 not it has no meaning to him. Really. Huh, yeah, 0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:29.880 it's it's it's fascinating. Okay, now it's time to take 0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:32.080 a quick break to hear from our sponsor. But when 0:30:32.120 --> 0:30:40.280 we come back, more on the mind's eye and a fantasia. 0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:47.960 All right, So, just how common is a fantasia? Um, 0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:50.240 it's a difficult question because this is something that hasn't 0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:53.960 really been uh in the public mind set. It hasn't 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:55.480 been out there. It hasn't been something you could a 0:30:55.520 --> 0:30:58.960 pamphle it on until very recently. There was one interesting 0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:01.880 study on this from before it had a name. Before this, 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:05.280 a fantasia term came out that was studying sort of 0:31:05.280 --> 0:31:08.920 the lack of generative power and mental imagery. And that 0:31:08.920 --> 0:31:12.600 that was in two thousand nine, right, study by Fall, yeah, 0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:16.400 Bill Fall, psychologists. And what did it find? He found 0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:19.760 that between two point one percent and two point seven 0:31:19.800 --> 0:31:23.880 percent of participants in his study claimed to have no 0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:27.520 visual imagination. So that's where we got that number up 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:29.440 at the beginning that it might be around one in 0:31:29.600 --> 0:31:32.520 fifty of you who just didn't see any pictures when 0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:35.200 you were following along in the story with us. Yeah, Now, 0:31:35.280 --> 0:31:38.120 of course we have to that that number is not 0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:41.760 coming from like a you know, large scale study, so 0:31:42.280 --> 0:31:45.800 the results aren't really fully supported, but it gives us 0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:48.360 sort of at least a ballpark. I think, yeah, it's 0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:50.360 something to work with. But but a lot of this 0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:55.479 recent research has popped up because of an interesting I'm 0:31:55.520 --> 0:31:59.200 about to use a great word here, synergy between between 0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:03.400 actual medical research and some writing in the popular press. Actually, 0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:06.200 I think like Carl Zimmer's articles had something to do 0:32:06.880 --> 0:32:09.240 with people coming out of the woodwork to say, Hey, 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.600 now I have this experience of a fantasia. I can't 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:16.480 make mental pictures. But it started with the research of 0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:20.280 Adam Zaman, right. Yeah, he's a professor of cognitive and 0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:23.400 behavioral neurology of the University of Exeter and Medical School, 0:32:23.800 --> 0:32:27.360 and along with co authors uh Um MICHELLEA. De Wira, 0:32:27.560 --> 0:32:32.600 and Surio Della Sala, they coined the term a fantasia 0:32:32.720 --> 0:32:37.040 in their two thousand fifteen paper Lives Without Imagery congenital 0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:40.160 a Fantasia that was published in the journal Cortex. Now, 0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:44.320 people had, as we said, previously described things along these 0:32:44.360 --> 0:32:47.240 lines like it had always been kind of noted that, well, 0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:49.360 there's some people out there who say that they can't 0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:52.560 create any mental pictures. But nobody really looked very deeply 0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:55.400 into this, and I think some of the earth I 0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:58.080 think the earliest example that the office we were looking 0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.880 at were able to draw on was just the nineteenth century. Now, 0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:04.280 this condition and the condition had in these earlier works 0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:07.000 of condition had previously been referred to as a defective 0:33:07.280 --> 0:33:13.040 revisualization or visual ear reminiscence. What a great word, ear reminiscence. 0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:16.720 Somebody was trying to make us say that, yeah, sorry, 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:19.760 not gonna work. It's a fantasia. Uh. And there are 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:22.360 skeptics actually out there who say that that what we're 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:25.000 talking about here does not exist at all. I think 0:33:25.080 --> 0:33:27.880 that's fascinating because how would you prove them wrong? Yeah? 0:33:27.960 --> 0:33:30.600 And why why would you make that argument? I don't know. Well, 0:33:30.640 --> 0:33:35.040 I mean, arguing about the existence of somebody else's internal experience. 0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:38.280 I mean, that's just it's crazy. Yeah, I mean it 0:33:38.320 --> 0:33:40.400 almost seems seems like you'd have to be making the 0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:43.280 counter argument of saying, oh, you don't have any fantasia, 0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:46.880 You just have a lazy mind, right, your imagination is 0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:49.760 just a bit stunted. But I can understand why people 0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:52.720 might be tempted to this direction because I, as I 0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:55.240 we've said before, I think you probably would agree with this. 0:33:55.400 --> 0:33:58.960 I can't imagine what this is like. Yeah, I have 0:33:59.160 --> 0:34:02.480 no ability to you whatsoever, to put myself in a 0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:05.479 position of not being able to make mental pictures that 0:34:05.600 --> 0:34:09.200 I don't even understand what that means really, Right, It's 0:34:09.239 --> 0:34:12.120 kind of like if most of us are more or 0:34:12.200 --> 0:34:16.480 less the same computer hardware with differing software. You know, 0:34:16.520 --> 0:34:18.400 we can talk all day about I don't understand how 0:34:18.440 --> 0:34:20.840 your software works, and this is how my software works. 0:34:20.880 --> 0:34:25.000 But here we're talking about essentially a difference in hardware. Um. 0:34:25.040 --> 0:34:26.880 I don't know if that analogy completely holds up, but 0:34:26.960 --> 0:34:30.480 essentially this is something a little more, uh, you know, 0:34:30.920 --> 0:34:35.120 base level is different and and how do we even 0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:37.800 begin to describe that to each other? Yeah? So Zaman 0:34:37.880 --> 0:34:40.759 first started studying this, I think in two thousand ten, right, 0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:45.360 because of the story of this. So there was a 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:51.879 patient who reported having contracted, like acquired a fantasia after 0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:54.480 a medical procedure, right, right, So there was a sixty 0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:57.879 five year old man who had coronary angioplasty and that's 0:34:57.880 --> 0:35:00.799 where they So if you have pockage in one of 0:35:00.840 --> 0:35:03.239 your arteries or something like that, they'll open up one 0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:05.560 of your arteries and stick a catheter in it, and 0:35:06.040 --> 0:35:08.719 somewhere along your body wherever the blockage is occurring, they'll 0:35:08.719 --> 0:35:12.160 inflate a small balloon or something inside your artery to 0:35:12.440 --> 0:35:15.680 widen it, essentially and allow easier passage of blood. It's 0:35:15.680 --> 0:35:18.279 not the kind of thing that you would initially imagine 0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:22.480 altering your brain functioning. Yeah, and it's generally not considered 0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:25.799 a major surgical procedure. It's like it's you. I think 0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:28.200 you're typically left awake for it. They don't even necessarily 0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:29.799 put you under, though they might need to give you 0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:33.200 some drugs to calm you down. But yeah, it's this 0:35:33.280 --> 0:35:36.360 is this is not like a gigantic big deal. So 0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:41.359 it's coronary angioplasty. And after the procedure, this patient was 0:35:41.480 --> 0:35:44.760 unable to form mental pictures and he had not had 0:35:44.800 --> 0:35:48.560 this problem before, and so yeah, and that's where this 0:35:48.640 --> 0:35:51.960 study comes in. And afterwards, after there were some pieces 0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:57.600 published about this, Zaman started to hear from people who said, Hey, 0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:01.000 I have this condition. And not only do I have it, 0:36:01.080 --> 0:36:03.440 I didn't get it from I didn't have an angioplastic 0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:07.520 or any you know, injury or or surgery. I've always 0:36:07.520 --> 0:36:10.360 had it. This is just how I am. So Zaman 0:36:10.400 --> 0:36:12.960 and his co author's day they looked at twenty one 0:36:13.000 --> 0:36:17.439 of these self reporting cases and then they discovered most 0:36:17.480 --> 0:36:22.680 of these individuals um kind of discovered their condition, their 0:36:22.719 --> 0:36:26.960 own condition in their twenties when through conversations or or readings, 0:36:27.000 --> 0:36:30.600 they found a discrepancy between how other people described the 0:36:30.719 --> 0:36:33.960 use of the mind's eye and their own experiences. Can 0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:37.080 you imagine. I just have a hard time imagining how 0:36:37.200 --> 0:36:39.799 you get that far in life without realizing. Now, this 0:36:39.880 --> 0:36:42.000 is another thing that's addressed yet again in that that 0:36:42.160 --> 0:36:44.120 essay I mentioned by Blake Ross where he just talks 0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:48.040 about how whenever he heard people using the language of 0:36:48.080 --> 0:36:51.480 the mind's eye were talking about, you know, picturing something, 0:36:51.520 --> 0:36:56.160 imagining something, he thought it was all metaphorical. He thought 0:36:56.200 --> 0:37:00.560 they were just talking about conceptually meditating on the idea 0:37:00.840 --> 0:37:03.959 of a beach or something. So you're sitting there thinking 0:37:04.000 --> 0:37:08.360 about the concepts of sand and water and sunshine and umbrellas. 0:37:08.440 --> 0:37:11.800 But he didn't realize that other people were literally seeing 0:37:11.920 --> 0:37:14.800 something in their mind. Yeah. I mean, it's like we 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:17.320 said earlier, when one when you have all these different 0:37:17.320 --> 0:37:19.799 types of memory, and if one is taking you know, 0:37:19.840 --> 0:37:22.480 a back seat, the other ones are going to compensate. 0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:25.439 So it's not like if you have a fantasia, you're 0:37:25.520 --> 0:37:27.480 not gonna be able to function in society at all. 0:37:27.560 --> 0:37:30.920 It seems like quite the contrary. Uh, individuals find a 0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:33.360 way to function. They find they just end up utilizing 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.000 these different modes of memory. Okay, but of these twenty 0:37:36.000 --> 0:37:40.600 one self reporting cases, what did Zamon find about them? Well, 0:37:40.840 --> 0:37:43.399 so I found that nineteen of the twenty one were male. 0:37:43.680 --> 0:37:46.120 And it's worth noting that this might have more to 0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:49.680 do with the readership of Discover magazine. This is not 0:37:49.719 --> 0:37:53.439 a randomized, self selective right. This is where people would 0:37:53.440 --> 0:37:55.759 have read that Carl Zimmer article and they were the 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:57.360 ones who said, hey, so yeah, I just might have 0:37:57.400 --> 0:38:00.359 to do with the male readership Discover. On the to hand, 0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:03.520 they found it. Five of the twenty one reported that 0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:06.439 it affected relatives as well. This is something I've read 0:38:06.480 --> 0:38:08.920 of people's experiences online. Some of them say, one of 0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:11.960 my parents has this. Yeah, so this leads us to 0:38:12.000 --> 0:38:15.319 believe it might be hereditary. And then ten of the 0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:19.520 twenty one said, uh, said that all all versions of 0:38:19.560 --> 0:38:23.840 the imagery were affected. Now, now, like I alluded to earlier, 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:26.120 this does seem to me, based on what I've read 0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:28.920 so far, to be sort of a um it's not 0:38:29.040 --> 0:38:33.239 necessarily an all or nothing. It's sort of a spectrum condition. 0:38:33.360 --> 0:38:37.080 Because one of the things that these people reported is 0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:40.280 that it's not like they've never ever in their entire 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:44.319 live seni mental image. They just generally don't see them. 0:38:45.040 --> 0:38:47.440 Like some of them sometimes reported that they might have 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:54.040 had very brief involuntary mental images like they they might involuntarily, 0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:58.239 quote flash an image of somebody's face. But it's just 0:38:58.320 --> 0:39:01.200 that this is rare and they can't do it on command. Right, 0:39:01.200 --> 0:39:04.040 It's something that just might occur during while they're awake. 0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:06.520 It might occur during dreams some of them. This is 0:39:06.560 --> 0:39:10.800 another thing, the interesting variation on dream experience. Some report 0:39:10.880 --> 0:39:14.120 that they don't have dreams at all or don't remember 0:39:14.160 --> 0:39:16.640 having them if they do have them, and some report 0:39:16.719 --> 0:39:19.960 that they do have dreams and can experience visual content 0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:22.280 and dreams, but just can't do it while they're awake 0:39:22.400 --> 0:39:25.680 or on command. Yeah. Zeman is a big believer that 0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:30.080 this is essentially a variant of neuropsychological functioning and kind 0:39:30.080 --> 0:39:32.640 of like synesthesia in a sense, and again kind of 0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:36.239 on on a spectrum as well. So, so again, don't 0:39:36.239 --> 0:39:38.680 think of it as a uh you know, as a 0:39:38.800 --> 0:39:41.120 as a as a brain injury. Don't think of it 0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:46.560 as a as as an ailment. It is just a different, uh, 0:39:47.120 --> 0:39:49.600 a different way that the mental chorus is coming together 0:39:49.640 --> 0:39:52.480 to receive reality. Yeah. Another thing that I thought was 0:39:52.560 --> 0:39:55.799 interesting is, uh, so we've been talking about images being 0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:59.560 visual as in like what you know, light, photons, and 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:03.680 the eyes. But this does seem to extend to varying 0:40:03.760 --> 0:40:06.640 degrees to other senses as well. Right, some of the 0:40:06.680 --> 0:40:10.160 people who report that they have a fantasia for visual 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:15.080 images also can't imagine the feelings of other senses, if 0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:16.880 you know what I mean. And then some report that 0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:19.640 they sort of can, again, making it seem like a 0:40:19.719 --> 0:40:23.080 kind of spectrum issue, like can you hear a piece 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:27.200 of music that you're not currently listening to? Yeah? Yeah, 0:40:27.239 --> 0:40:30.480 that's that's That's another good one. I certainly can. Like 0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:32.400 one of the ones I wanted to think was the 0:40:32.440 --> 0:40:35.239 Star Wars theme. I can just play the whole Star 0:40:35.280 --> 0:40:38.359 Wars theme in my mind from beginning to end. Yeah, 0:40:38.360 --> 0:40:40.880 And certainly we've all experienced earworms, so that's kind of 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:44.040 a variant of that now. Um. Also in this uh 0:40:44.120 --> 0:40:47.759 the Zaman paper, they said of the individuals, a number 0:40:47.800 --> 0:40:51.120 of them reported modest effects on their relationships, which I 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:53.680 guess one can imagine if you and your um, your 0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:59.040 significant other are ultimately engaging with mental imagery and drastically 0:40:59.080 --> 0:41:02.200 different ways. And also, fourteen of the twenty one participants 0:41:02.239 --> 0:41:05.840 reported difficulties with autobiographical memory. So here's a quick quote 0:41:05.840 --> 0:41:10.480 from the paper. The same number identified h compensatory strengths 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:14.920 in verbal, mathematical, and logical domains. They their successful performance 0:41:14.960 --> 0:41:18.799 in a task that would normally elicit imagery count how 0:41:18.800 --> 0:41:21.480 many windows there are in your house or apartment, etcetera, 0:41:21.680 --> 0:41:25.720 was achieved by drawing on what participants described as knowledge, memory, 0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:28.799 and sub visual models. Yeah, this is interesting. So this 0:41:28.880 --> 0:41:30.480 again gets back into the idea that you end up 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:34.239 just utilizing different modes of memory the workforce of the brain. Yeah, right, 0:41:34.320 --> 0:41:36.640 because I can't imagine. So if somebody said how many 0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:38.719 windows are there in your house? I would do that 0:41:38.760 --> 0:41:41.319 with a picture. I would picture my house and sort 0:41:41.360 --> 0:41:44.080 of picture walking around the sides of my house and 0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:47.480 seeing how many windows are there. But they can do 0:41:47.560 --> 0:41:50.239 this without the picture. It's not like they're unable to 0:41:50.320 --> 0:41:53.120 do it. So there's something else kicking in. Must be 0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:57.160 conceptual facts logged about the house. Okay, so we need 0:41:57.200 --> 0:41:59.040 to take one more quick break and then we'll be 0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:08.120 right back with more or a fantasia. Now that BBC 0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:11.360 paper that we mentioned earlier by James Gallagher. In that paper, 0:42:11.360 --> 0:42:16.800 Gallagher spoke with one Neil kin Mure of Lancaster. Uh, 0:42:17.120 --> 0:42:19.560 this is a self reporting individual with blindness in the 0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:22.520 mind's eye, and he provided some interesting insight on the condition. 0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:24.600 So I have just a couple of quotes here from 0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:26.840 that that piece that I found were interesting. He said, quote, 0:42:26.840 --> 0:42:30.280 my stepfather, when I couldn't sleep, told me to count sheep, 0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:33.520 and he explained what he meant. I tried to do it, 0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:37.040 and I couldn't see any sheep jumping over fences. There 0:42:37.120 --> 0:42:41.000 was nothing to count. No, that's uh, that's that's an 0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:42.839 interesting because I guess that might be one of the 0:42:42.840 --> 0:42:47.759 earliest examples of of here mentally mentally imagined this. Like 0:42:48.080 --> 0:42:51.880 with my own uh son, I had a similar situation. 0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:54.600 Like I distinctly remember the first time I told him 0:42:54.640 --> 0:42:58.120 to close his eyes and encouraged him to imagine an 0:42:58.120 --> 0:43:00.640 elephant because he was really obsessed with with elephants at 0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:03.319 the time. And um, I saw the delight on his 0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:07.160 face as he imagined the elephant. Um. But you know, 0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:09.880 after doing this research, I realized, well, there's equally a 0:43:09.920 --> 0:43:12.200 possibility that we wouldn't be able to see the elephant, 0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:14.920 and you know, there wouldn't be anything we're go wrong 0:43:15.000 --> 0:43:17.480 with him if he couldn't see it. In the BBC 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:21.319 piece um the the The interviewed individual, Neil kim Miller, 0:43:21.400 --> 0:43:23.719 also said that he had a terrible memory, but he 0:43:23.760 --> 0:43:27.160 was good with facts and and then there's an additional quote. 0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:30.160 This is the hardest thing to describe what happens in 0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:32.359 my head when I think about things. When I think 0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:35.200 about my fiancee, there is no image, but I am 0:43:35.239 --> 0:43:38.200 definitely thinking about her. I know today she has her 0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:41.040 hair up at the back, she's brunette. But I'm not 0:43:41.080 --> 0:43:44.440 describing an image I am looking at I'm remembering features 0:43:44.480 --> 0:43:47.160 about her. That's the strangest thing, and maybe that is 0:43:47.200 --> 0:43:49.520 a source of some regret. Yeah, I mean, this is 0:43:49.520 --> 0:43:52.359 the thing because typically these people report that they it's 0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:54.759 not like they can't they don't know what somebody looks like, right. 0:43:54.800 --> 0:43:58.040 They's not like that scene in like Hannibal where they 0:43:58.120 --> 0:44:00.960 show face blindness as just seeing people with like smooth 0:44:01.000 --> 0:44:03.759 skin over their face. Yeah. What's that condition called a 0:44:03.760 --> 0:44:07.440 congenital prosopagnosia? Is that it where you you have a 0:44:07.480 --> 0:44:10.480 born condition where you just can't recognize faces people. You 0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:12.960 see people who are familiar to you, but you just 0:44:13.440 --> 0:44:16.640 they just don't look like anybody, uh you know, whoever 0:44:16.719 --> 0:44:19.480 that is and and it's not like that you, or 0:44:19.520 --> 0:44:21.600 at least not for everybody. Like we said, there seems 0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:24.120 to be a wide variation in how this applies to 0:44:24.120 --> 0:44:26.759 people's lives. But I haven't read that it's like that 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:28.680 for most people. It seems like they report, yeah, they 0:44:28.840 --> 0:44:32.319 recognize people. Once they see a picture of of a 0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:35.600 close family member or of the president or whoever it is, 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:37.840 they know who it is. They just can't make the 0:44:37.920 --> 0:44:40.960 picture without looking at it. It's almost kind of like 0:44:41.200 --> 0:44:44.200 we talked about in the P versus NP episode, like 0:44:44.239 --> 0:44:47.400 the kinds of problems that once a solution is presented, 0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:50.120 you can easily check to see if it's correct, but 0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:52.719 you can't come up with a solution and a reasonable 0:44:52.719 --> 0:44:55.520 amount of time by yourself. Uh. It sounds like a 0:44:55.640 --> 0:44:57.960 version of that. You can't make the picture, but when 0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:00.239 somebody shows you the picture you can say, oh, yeah, 0:45:00.239 --> 0:45:03.400 that's it. Yeah definitely. But anyway, I I just find 0:45:03.400 --> 0:45:08.239 this condition really fascinating. And so if you yourself are 0:45:08.440 --> 0:45:12.480 somebody who thinks you may be experiencing a fantasia, or 0:45:12.719 --> 0:45:14.480 if you just want to learn more about it, one 0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:17.399 interesting resource I think would be to go and look 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:21.040 at some of the message boards online that have recently 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:25.319 been created by people who claimed to have this experience, 0:45:26.160 --> 0:45:32.120 because there's one I found that was a fant dot asia. Nice. Yeah, 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:35.080 but it's it's just like a forum online people talking 0:45:35.120 --> 0:45:38.120 about their experiences. Uh, and it seems to be a 0:45:38.120 --> 0:45:42.239 lot of people having this kind of uh, this awakening 0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:44.759 kind of experience. They're like, oh, man, I didn't even 0:45:44.800 --> 0:45:48.120 realize that this was what was causing all this confusion 0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:50.880 between me and other people all these years, or I 0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:53.880 didn't realize I was the I wasn't the only one 0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:56.959 who was like this, or you know, people really seem 0:45:57.040 --> 0:45:59.400 to be having a lot of fun coming together with 0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:02.439 a community of other people who have the same issue. Well, 0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:04.440 like it reminds one of the whole you know, the 0:46:04.480 --> 0:46:07.120 old example of hey, what if when I think of 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:09.480 purple and you think of purple? What if we what 0:46:09.560 --> 0:46:12.840 if we're each seeing different colors? But there's never a 0:46:12.880 --> 0:46:14.880 way to prove that out. But but this is kind 0:46:14.920 --> 0:46:17.279 of like a case where what it's kind of like 0:46:17.320 --> 0:46:19.160 if you were one day able to say, oh, yeah, 0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:21.960 the purple I see is different from the purple these 0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:25.080 people see. I'm gonna I'm gonna go hang out now 0:46:25.480 --> 0:46:28.120 with individuals who see purple the way I see. People 0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:30.920 never understood what the deal with Barney was, but now 0:46:30.960 --> 0:46:34.120 I get it. Uh No. But so I have all 0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:37.839 these questions about a fantasia, like what it means, and 0:46:38.560 --> 0:46:41.400 again just emphasize it does seem like we haven't nailed 0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:45.719 down that there's a specific cause and a very specific 0:46:45.760 --> 0:46:48.319 effect yet, because there seemed to be a range of 0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:52.160 different ways this manifests in people's minds. It's associated with 0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:54.640 different things. Some people dream, some people don't. Some people 0:46:54.680 --> 0:46:57.759 have memory problems, some people don't. Um. But one of 0:46:57.760 --> 0:47:02.640 the things I was wondering about was can fantasiacs hallucinate? Yeah? 0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:06.080 So what if an a fantasiac takes a drug that 0:47:06.239 --> 0:47:11.560 often causes visual hallucinations? Do they see anything different? Yeah? 0:47:11.600 --> 0:47:16.399 Are they just going to get the non visual hallucinatory effects? Uh? 0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:20.080 Or is it going to sort of ignite a type 0:47:20.080 --> 0:47:22.840 of visual imagery that isn't normally there sort of heighten 0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:24.960 the flashes that some of the you know, the the 0:47:24.960 --> 0:47:28.080 the occasional flashes that some of these individuals experience. Yeah, 0:47:28.120 --> 0:47:30.600 And so I looked this up actually on the on 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:33.799 the forum boards, and they had actually addressed it. So 0:47:34.000 --> 0:47:36.960 one member of a message board said they typed a 0:47:37.040 --> 0:47:40.879 question that struck me as intriguing. This person said they 0:47:40.880 --> 0:47:44.560 were confused. Essentially, they said, how is hallucinating different from 0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:48.399 seeing things in your mind? Again, that question is hard 0:47:48.440 --> 0:47:50.960 to answer, but to somebody who has, uh, you know, 0:47:51.000 --> 0:47:55.319 a mind's eye, it's very clearly different. I don't feel 0:47:55.360 --> 0:47:57.920 like I'm hallucinating when I imagine something, but try to 0:47:57.960 --> 0:48:01.360 describe the difference. Well, you're seeing something in your mind 0:48:01.440 --> 0:48:06.799 that's not there. Okay, that sounds like hallucination, but yeah, 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:08.759 but then it's also yeah, then it's also just like 0:48:08.840 --> 0:48:12.120 seeing Yeah. So yeah, we come back again to the 0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:17.360 cave and we're all still lined up staring at the 0:48:17.960 --> 0:48:21.080 play of shadows on the wall. Yeah. Some of us 0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:24.080 maybe just have a slightly different view of the shadows 0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:26.839 and others. Okay, Robert, I've got a question for you. Okay, 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:32.160 hit me. Do you think you could try to simulate 0:48:32.520 --> 0:48:36.200 this in you're in your own mind? Like? Could you try? 0:48:36.200 --> 0:48:38.279 I know you it would be impossible for us to 0:48:38.400 --> 0:48:40.759 really fully be able to do it, But can you 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:45.040 try to go through a standard day to day process 0:48:45.080 --> 0:48:47.640 something you would do all the time without using any 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:51.000 mental pictures. I was trying this morning, and I couldn't 0:48:51.040 --> 0:48:54.880 do it. Just trying. Yeah, trying not to think of 0:48:54.920 --> 0:48:58.120 mental images immediately calls to mind mental images. It's like, 0:48:58.520 --> 0:49:02.360 you know, telling somebody like, think of a rhinoceros wearing 0:49:02.360 --> 0:49:06.080 a jet pack. You just did it. Uh. And even 0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:08.520 it works in the in the general sense, just saying, 0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:11.360 try not to think of mental images, and immediately my 0:49:11.400 --> 0:49:14.640 mind is filled with rhinoceroses and jet packs. Yeah. I mean, 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:17.760 if anything, I have to try and keep from daydreaming 0:49:17.800 --> 0:49:20.440 and keep from or keep from you know, pummeling myself 0:49:20.480 --> 0:49:23.720 with with different mental images. Uh, and and actually focus 0:49:23.800 --> 0:49:26.799 in on a task, you know. Yeah. I mean the 0:49:26.880 --> 0:49:29.200 way this really seems like it would come through is like, 0:49:29.360 --> 0:49:32.200 how does if you can't have mental images, how do 0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:35.080 you have fantasies about things you would like to do? 0:49:35.520 --> 0:49:37.880 So you imagine, you know, your boss makes you furious 0:49:37.880 --> 0:49:39.520 and you wish you could punch him in the nose. 0:49:39.760 --> 0:49:41.640 You wouldn't actually do it, but you at least have 0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:44.960 that image for a moment, right. Uh. I think that's 0:49:44.960 --> 0:49:49.000 probably a nearly universal experience for people, and of having 0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:51.719 thought of it. But what happens if you can't have 0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:54.239 that image in your mind, do you do you think 0:49:54.280 --> 0:49:57.960 about it conceptually? It's like I I just thinking about 0:49:58.000 --> 0:50:00.719 the concept of punching my boss in the face. Well, 0:50:00.719 --> 0:50:02.959 and then also even if like I was just thinking 0:50:03.000 --> 0:50:04.759 to myself, like, what are some of the times when 0:50:04.760 --> 0:50:09.600 I'm actually able to to not, you know, mentally imagine 0:50:09.600 --> 0:50:13.520 anything and have these mental visualizations in my mind, I think, well, okay, 0:50:13.560 --> 0:50:15.439 maybe when I'm doing yoga because I'm able to sort 0:50:15.440 --> 0:50:17.360 of shut out a lot of stuff. I'm able to 0:50:17.360 --> 0:50:20.200 shut off the default mode network to a large extent. 0:50:20.360 --> 0:50:25.160 But even then, if I'm focusing on a pose, I 0:50:25.200 --> 0:50:29.080 am also focusing on a mental image of what I 0:50:29.160 --> 0:50:32.000 must look like in that pose, which may or may 0:50:32.000 --> 0:50:36.400 not have match up to how I'm actually doing the pose. 0:50:37.000 --> 0:50:39.840 So what is it like then to engage in a 0:50:39.920 --> 0:50:44.920 in a physical activity like that with a fantasia? I mean, 0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:47.920 I mean, obviously you can do it, but it just 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:53.680 kind of drives home just how much mental visualizations, um, 0:50:54.160 --> 0:50:57.520 how big a role they play and just everything we do. Okay, 0:50:57.520 --> 0:51:01.360 another question fiction writing. This is something again from the 0:51:01.680 --> 0:51:04.399 from the Blake cross Piece. So he's he is, He's 0:51:04.520 --> 0:51:07.760 done some screenwriting, and he describes his process for fiction 0:51:07.800 --> 0:51:11.200 writing without having mental images, which he described in terms 0:51:11.200 --> 0:51:14.600 of words and parts of speech. I thought this was interesting. 0:51:14.640 --> 0:51:18.040 So he said, like, when I'm imagining something, I imagine 0:51:18.160 --> 0:51:21.560 a noun, the word, and then I imagine a verb 0:51:21.760 --> 0:51:25.600 that follows it, the word um. And so there's something 0:51:25.840 --> 0:51:28.799 very different about his process for writing than I would have. 0:51:28.840 --> 0:51:33.279 So when I'm imagining a scene, there's there's translation going on. 0:51:33.360 --> 0:51:35.600 I think of a picture, and then I have to 0:51:35.680 --> 0:51:39.360 put the picture into words. But could it be possible 0:51:39.400 --> 0:51:43.800 that this allows people to do creative writing without any translation. 0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:49.279 The original creative thing that's happening is words. That's interesting. Yeah, 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:51.640 Like they're not having They're not in that situation that 0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:55.680 I mentioned earlier, where as an artist or a creator 0:51:55.719 --> 0:51:58.600 of any kind, you are stuck trying to translate the 0:51:58.960 --> 0:52:02.160 mental image into who something another person can share in. 0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:05.040 Like you said, there's no translation going there. Well, it 0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:09.080 makes me wonder if the maybe the ultimate form of 0:52:09.200 --> 0:52:14.560 direct written communication with almost nothing lost in between, would 0:52:14.600 --> 0:52:19.280 be an a fantasiac writing to another a fantasiac somebody, 0:52:19.360 --> 0:52:23.160 because there you're not translating it into pictures on both 0:52:23.200 --> 0:52:27.399 sides or on either side. I will say that something 0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:29.480 that does remind me of is like in my own 0:52:29.480 --> 0:52:32.799 writing process. There there's definitely the point where I have 0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:34.640 an image in my mind or seen in my mind, 0:52:34.760 --> 0:52:37.000 characters in my mind, and I'm trying to bring that 0:52:37.080 --> 0:52:40.160 to life on the page. But then if I'll get 0:52:40.160 --> 0:52:44.240 into these situations where I'm writing and in a way 0:52:44.280 --> 0:52:47.680 what I'm writing is coming before the mental image, so 0:52:47.760 --> 0:52:50.080 I kind of create the point. Not to say it's 0:52:50.480 --> 0:52:53.960 it's a fantasia at all, but I'm kind of writing 0:52:54.000 --> 0:52:57.239 before the mental visualization. I'm kind of reading what I've 0:52:57.239 --> 0:53:00.879 writen I've written and an experienced it more or less 0:53:00.880 --> 0:53:03.000 in real time as a reader would. Oh yeah, well, 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:04.920 I bet you've had the experience I know I have 0:53:05.040 --> 0:53:08.279 of writing something before you get the picture, and then 0:53:08.320 --> 0:53:11.040 getting the picture and then going back and revising what 0:53:11.080 --> 0:53:14.480 you've written based on the picture. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. 0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:17.799 This so this is yeah, the writing is definitely a 0:53:17.800 --> 0:53:20.239 fascinating area to think about, this because it is this 0:53:20.719 --> 0:53:23.280 sort of it's the mental image, but in this stripping 0:53:23.360 --> 0:53:26.040 down of the mental image, the translating it into into 0:53:26.120 --> 0:53:31.360 another form. Uh yeah, yeah, well it's fascinating to be 0:53:31.440 --> 0:53:34.520 coming into this topic and it's such an interesting time 0:53:34.600 --> 0:53:36.960 for it, you know, when when it seems we're on 0:53:37.000 --> 0:53:39.040 the cusp of a lot of new learning about what 0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:41.759 this condition is, how many people have it, what it's 0:53:41.800 --> 0:53:45.760 like for them, and Hey, if you out there actually 0:53:45.800 --> 0:53:49.680 experience this, if you have some level of a fantasia 0:53:49.760 --> 0:53:53.000 or you're toward that end of the mental image re spectrum, 0:53:53.040 --> 0:53:55.440 I think it would be great to hear about your experience, 0:53:55.480 --> 0:53:56.840 if you want to write in and tell us what 0:53:56.880 --> 0:53:58.960 it's like. Yeah, and if you're on the other end 0:53:58.960 --> 0:54:02.200 of the spectrum, if you're a hyper visualizer, let us 0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:04.600 know about that as well. Uh. In the meantime, head 0:54:04.640 --> 0:54:06.120 on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 0:54:06.160 --> 0:54:07.919 That is the mothership. That is where you will find 0:54:07.960 --> 0:54:10.719 all the podcast episodes. You will find videos, blog post 0:54:10.760 --> 0:54:13.640 links up to social media accounts such as Facebook and Twitter. 0:54:13.680 --> 0:54:15.799 We are blow the Mind on both of those. We 0:54:15.880 --> 0:54:19.160 also have accounts on Tumbler and Instagram. And if you 0:54:19.200 --> 0:54:21.600 want to get in touch with us with your experience 0:54:21.640 --> 0:54:24.200 of mental imagery or with feedback on this episode or 0:54:24.239 --> 0:54:26.360 any other, you can email us at blow the Mind 0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:38.000 at how stuff works dot com. Well more on this 0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:40.680 and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works? 0:54:40.719 --> 0:55:01.439 Dot com not my boy,