1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from House Stop 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: work dot Com. Okay, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: today's episode, concerns the mind's eye, concerns mental imagery, and 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: so we decided that the best way to kick off 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: this episode is to take you on a little guided 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: mental journey. YEA, so close your eyes unless you're driving 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: or doing something that requires your eyes to be open, 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: and in that case, don't close your eyes if you 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: If you are able to close your eyes, close your 11 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: eyes if not. Just imagine you're eight years old and 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: you're walking along a beach with your mother, your barefoot. 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: The tide is coming in, and you see trails of 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: footprints leading back and forth along the beach where other 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: people have walked the same path today. But the waves 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 1: are coming higher and higher and slowly smoothing all those 17 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: footprints away. But then you look up at your mother 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: and you notice something strange. She's wearing armor, a steel 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: chest plate and a visored helm with chainmail drooping across 20 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: her arms and legs, rustling lightly as she walks across 21 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: the front of her chest plate is a painted figure. 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: It's Foghorn, Leghorn. She raises the visor on her helm 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: and smiles at you. A mosquito hovers in front of 24 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: her face, and she flails one arm to knock it away, 25 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: and you both laugh. But then you notice something else. 26 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: Your mother has a piece of metal dangling from her 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: hip opposite you. It's a long sword. She puts one 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: hand on the hilt and says, don't worry, only a 29 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: bit of insurance in case he shows up. A wave 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: of seawater rolls up over your feet, washing dry sand 31 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: from between your toes, and you ask who. Then there's 32 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: a faint rumbling under your feet. It's not just the 33 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: tickling of the waves. The ground is shaking, and about 34 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: two out in the water, a dark shape begins to 35 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: rise up from the waves. At first it's just a green, 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: black lump, but then the huge glaring eyes, the cavernous mouth, 37 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: climbing higher and higher as it approaches. It's Godzilla. Not 38 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: the friendly Godzilla who defends Earth against all the heel monsters. 39 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: This is the angry Godzilla who breathes beams of radiation 40 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: and crushes ten story buildings with a single swipe. Your 41 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: mother puts an arm across your chest. She draws her 42 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: long sword and says stand back. This could get serious, 43 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: And with the flip of a switch, her hover boots engage, 44 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: her feet lift off the ground, and then she's rocketing 45 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: towards the head of the monster to defend the realms 46 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: of humankind. Alright, so, uh, we we try to draw 47 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: in a few different types of of imagery. There are 48 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: a few different types of memory memories. Right. We wanted 49 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: to have sort of generic landscape that would be easy 50 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: for a lot of people to picture, like a beach. 51 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: Most people have some kind of image, generically of what 52 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: a beach looks like. We also wanted something familiar. Usually 53 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: they say to picture a relative or familiar family member. 54 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: So hopefully you've got an image of a mother or 55 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: family figure there. But then also some pop culture images. Right, 56 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: most people hopefully know what Godzilla looks like. If you don't, 57 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: you gotta go back and watch the original Godzilla from 58 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: the fifties and right, uh, and then uh and then 59 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: fall horn like horn and personal favorite of mine. You know. 60 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things with this exercise is to 61 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: think back on it and think back of the specifics 62 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: and ask yourself questions like who did I have a 63 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: more vivid memory of what I looked like as a child, 64 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: what my mother looked like, what Godzilla looked like, and 65 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: in these details are not necessarily telling of your relationship 66 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: with your mother versus your relationship with Godzilla. But but 67 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: but it it kind of raises our awareness of the 68 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: vast spectrum of visual stimuli that are informing our our 69 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: inner vision of the world. Yeah, and this is a 70 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: strange thing because the only person who can experience your 71 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: mental imagery is you. You can sort of describe your 72 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: mental imagery to other people, but nobody can take a 73 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: look at it to see what it is you're picturing 74 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: in your mind. So this is something that you largely 75 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: have to deal with entirely on your own, and you 76 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: don't know how similar or how different your own process 77 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: of mental imagery is to that of other people unless 78 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: you really put your heads together and start talking about 79 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: your mental images and detail and trying to figure out 80 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: if their differences. It's not a standard thing that people do, 81 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: really right, because even to describe it, if I describe 82 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: my mental images to you, they become your mental images. 83 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: Like it's in a way I'm kind of panting off 84 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: the blueprints, and then you build a different building. It's 85 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: the same building, but a different building. And likewise, maybe 86 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: you paint, maybe you write, and some other artistic medium, 87 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: you create music to try and convey these images in 88 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: your head, but you're still but you're still then limited 89 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: by your artist artistic ability and then under people's interpretations 90 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: of those works of art. You know, I already realized. 91 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: I didn't think about this when I was writing this, 92 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: but I did already see a contradiction in what I 93 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: told people to imagine the original angry Godzilla. But then 94 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,119 Speaker 1: I also said green black, right, Well, Godzilla in color 95 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 1: is sort of greenish black, but the original angry Godzilla 96 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: black and white. He's just you know, you look at 97 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: him and he just looks like this charred monster. You know. 98 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: So this is a this is already a mental confabulation 99 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: on my part. I'm imagining a Godzilla that never existed 100 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: anywhere in reality. But anyway, so most of you were 101 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: with us there on that journey. You were to some 102 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: extent able to picture some of the things we were 103 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: talking about. You could see in your mind's eye the beach, 104 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: the armor, your mother, the sword, the fog Horn, Leghorn, 105 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: the Godzilla. But there are some people who probably couldn't 106 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: see any of that. They were there with us, they 107 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: were understanding the concepts, they were able to follow the plot, 108 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: whatever plot there was, and they could probably recount a 109 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: list of the events that happened in the little scene 110 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: we just described, but they couldn't see any of it 111 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: in their imagination. And this is the concept we're gonna 112 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: be talking about today. One study has found that this 113 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: might be about up to one in fifty people who 114 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: have this kind of experience where they just don't create 115 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: pictures inside their mind the way most people do. Uh 116 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: And this condition now hasn't come to be known as 117 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: a fantasia or the blindness of the mind's I So, 118 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: the American biotech leader Craig Venter, you know about him, right. 119 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: He's famous for being a leader in the quest of 120 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: sequence the human genome, and he's famous for creating a 121 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: synthetic organisms. Uh So, he has actually described that he 122 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: has an unusual way of thinking, a way of thinking 123 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: that's essentially purely conceptual, like we've been describing, without any 124 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: mental imagery. Venter says, quote, it's like having a computer 125 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: store the information, but you don't have a screen attached 126 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: to the computer. He's describing his own mind. I don't know. 127 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: I I have trouble understanding what that would be like. 128 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: But maybe maybe to understand it better, we should first 129 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: look at some facts about what the mind's eye itself 130 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: is before we get into the blindness of the mind's eye. 131 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: What's going on when you create pictures in your head. Well, 132 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: of course we're talking about mental imagery here, but also 133 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: there's some other sensations thrown in as well. It all 134 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: amounts to a quasi perceptional experience that occurs in the 135 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: absence of the appropriate external stimuli. Um. So, I can 136 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: close my eyes, I can see a deceased loved one's face. 137 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: I can hear their voice. I can imagine myself standing 138 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: on the shore of a distant ocean, past ocean, or 139 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: even some future sure that I haven't even walked on yet. 140 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: I mean, this, this is the kind of thing that 141 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: I mean, most of us take for granted. We can, 142 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: we use it, we employ it every day. Um Well, 143 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: I mean, as I did with the Angry Godzilla and color, 144 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: you can picture things you've never actually seen, right, Yeah, 145 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: you can? Yeah, there are things. If you're like me, 146 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: I feel there are things in books. For instance, no 147 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: one has ever painted a picture of this character or 148 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: this scene. Uh, and yet you have a very crystal 149 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: clear vision, Like I have a better visual memory of 150 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: some things that have occurred in books than things that 151 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: have occurred in real life. You know. Oh yeah, yeah, 152 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about. Uh Is isn't 153 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: it so weird to finally see a book you've read 154 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: but it's never been illustrated or made into a film 155 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: or anything finally made visual by someone else? It's always 156 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: people always have the same reaction. That's not what I thought. 157 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: So and so looked, like, let's know what it looks like. Yeah. Now, 158 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: the things we perceive in the mind's eye, they're they're 159 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: products of memory. They're constructed from specific or varied memories. 160 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: They may be accurate, they may be amalgams of diverse influences. Really, 161 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: this runs the gamut from something you saw yesterday that 162 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: you near perfectly remember, to have you know, a vague 163 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: site from your childhood that you at least think you remember, 164 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: to an envisioned future scene in your own life, something 165 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: you dreamt, something you daydreamed, landscape, be viewed from the 166 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: imagined walls of a fictional world, or your own creation 167 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: of a of an author's creation. It's just like pretty 168 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: much any time we are envisioning something, any time we 169 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: are closing our eyes or even with our eyes open 170 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: are imagining something, we are seeing something in our mind 171 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: that is, of course the mind's eye, uh, doing its thing. Yeah. 172 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,599 Speaker 1: And I think this has always been a very interesting 173 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: avenue for philosophy to investigate, because it is something that 174 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 1: we recognized was sort of strange about the human experience 175 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: before we had neuroscience or psychology or or any of 176 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: these scientific ways of investigating it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean 177 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: because because it it obviously plays such a central role 178 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: in the way we navigate the world and the way 179 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: we think about time and a world of movable objects. Right. Um. 180 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: And so yeah, we've been as long as we've had philosophers, 181 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,719 Speaker 1: as long as we've had people among us with with 182 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: time to you know, look up from their labors and 183 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: think about the human condition, we've been thinking about the 184 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: mind's eye. Um. On the podcast here, we've talked about 185 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: the method of loki before the the ancient Greek technique 186 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: in which person utilizes spatial memory to memorize nonspatial information. Uh. Look, 187 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: that kind of plays into into some of this. That 188 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: involves a certain amount of a reflection on what's on 189 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: how we're using the mind's eye. You know. I I've 190 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: tried to use the method of LOCAI and I have 191 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: not been very good at it. Yeah, I wonder if 192 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: I'm just not doing it right, like I when I'm 193 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: able to to really get it set in my mind 194 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: as help me remember. By the way, this is so 195 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: a quick version of it is, if you need to 196 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: make a list of digits of numbers to remember, you're 197 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: not going to remember those digits. So instead you imagine 198 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: your house being full of odd characters that each embody 199 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: one of the digits in that number sequence, and then 200 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: you can remember by picturing the room and where all 201 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: of the odd characters were in the room, and then 202 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: you just remember what digit they correspond to or something 203 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah. Like a very simplified version of this 204 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,719 Speaker 1: that I have employed frequently in the past. It's kind 205 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: of like a um uh you know, often called the 206 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: memory palace because it's an imagined place that you fill 207 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: with these examples. But oftentimes I only have room in 208 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 1: my mind for one example, and that is, uh, that's 209 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: when I am a swimming lapse and I want to 210 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: remember what number lap I'm on, because if I forget 211 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: the lap number, then I'm going to make myself revert 212 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: to the to the lower number. So if I if 213 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: I don't know for sure I'm on four, I'm gonna 214 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: do three. And I don't want to keep doing one 215 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: less than I want to do because I'm gonna wear 216 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: myself out right. But I'm also busy swimming. I'm having 217 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: a hard time necessarily remembering which lap I am currently on. 218 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: So instead of trying to remember four, as easy as 219 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: that would seem, I find it easier to just force 220 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: myself to think of, say, the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, 221 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: like think of think of that, and that'll stick in 222 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: my head just a little better as I'm you know, 223 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: vigorously of swimming these laps um, you know, So it'll 224 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: just be some sort of visual association with just a 225 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: single digit. I don't know, I don't know if anybody 226 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: else out there has has done something of that that 227 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: that nature, but that is kind of a simplified um, good, creamy, 228 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: what's what's your visual image. For eight, I can't think 229 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: of anything for eight. Oh, for eight, I think of 230 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: Alan robe Gerlays the Voyeur, where you have a character 231 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: who keeps making figure eights out of rope. Yeah, so 232 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: I think of him setting by the shore, um, not 233 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: quite contemplating horrible things and making little figure eights. That's 234 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: a good thing to have in your mind here at 235 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: the gym or the y m c A guess wherever 236 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: you swim laps. So one of the important things when 237 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: when thinking about the memory Palace and then ultimately thinking 238 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: about memory and the mind's eye, is just to to 239 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: refresh here a little bit about human memory itself. Human 240 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: memory is not just like a tape, real rolling in 241 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: the brain that we just oh, let's go back and 242 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: look and see what happened yesterday. Human memory in multiple ways. 243 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: It's not multiple certainly not that accurate, right, because human 244 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: memory consists of several different types of memory that are 245 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: working in uh kind of an unequal chorus um to 246 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: create the human experience of memory that we have. So 247 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: we have sensory memory, um, you know what something feels like, 248 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: what it smells, it smells like, that sort of thing. 249 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: We have short term memory, and we have long term 250 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: term memory. We have and then we divide long term 251 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: memory out. We have explicit memories of consciousness, we have 252 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: implicit memories of unconsciousness. We have declarative memories of facts 253 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: and events. We have procedural memories involved that involves skills 254 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 1: and tasks. We have episodic memory that deals with events 255 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: and experiences, and we have semantic memory that concerns facts 256 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: and concepts. So we have all these different types of memories, 257 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: each one dealing with in a way certain you know, 258 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: different types of skills, different types of ways of utilizing 259 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: memory when we engage with the world. And studies have 260 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: shown in the past that, uh, if you have a 261 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: part of the brain associated with the one type of 262 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: memory is injured, sometimes you see those other types of 263 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: memory compensating. So it's like a a in a way, 264 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: it's like a staff. It's like a staff of different 265 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: memory drones, and they all have their jobs to do. 266 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: But if somebody is slacking, then it may fall to 267 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: another employee to uh to to you know, to step 268 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: up and and cover for their shortcomings. Yeah. I think 269 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: that's a good metaphor that the brain is more like 270 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: a workforce than a machine. If one part of a 271 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: machine and breaks, the whole machine probably isn't gonna work. 272 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: But if one part of a workforce is slacking or 273 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: calls in sick today, the others can often find a 274 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: way to cover for them, right, And they might cover 275 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: you know, everyone does their job a little bit differently, 276 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: so their their skill set might allow them to cover 277 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: in a slightly different way. But back to philosophers. So 278 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: philosophers have continue to argue about the minds, and we're 279 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: certainly not gonna be able to do an exhausted journey 280 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: through all of their their takes. But you go back 281 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: as far as Plato, for example, when Plato brought us 282 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: one of the most famous examples of this. Uh, he 283 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: utilizes mental images in his famous allegory of the Cave. Yeah, 284 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: and that's sort of the idea that the world that 285 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: we perceive is not the true reality, you know. But 286 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: Plato had this whole belief in ideal forms, you know, 287 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: things that were the more true version of the thing 288 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: than the thing we're familiar with. Right, there's a realm 289 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: of forms out there, and in that realm of forms, 290 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: there's such thing as a perfect chair. But in this 291 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: world that we can only build in perfect chairs that 292 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: inch maybe a little closer and closer towards that unobtainable ideal. Yeah, 293 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: And so his metaphor for explaining this was that of 294 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: the cave, where there are people who are chained up 295 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: in a cave and they don't even really realize that 296 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: they're in a cave, and uh, and there's an opening 297 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: to the cave through which light comes through and figures 298 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: pass in front of the opening to the cave, casting 299 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: shadows on the wall of the cave, and all we 300 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: see we're facing the back of the cave of the wall, 301 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: and we see the shadows, and we think the shadows 302 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: are the real things, but they're not there. They're only 303 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: the the sort of like the vague outlines of the 304 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: things that that are the true forms. If anyone out 305 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: there is watching The Path on Hulu, there's actually a 306 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: scene um in the first episode where they roll out 307 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: this this allegory and it's it's pretty entertaining, but but 308 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly it's an it's an allegory. You can 309 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: have a lot of fun with either trying to contrast 310 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: your worldview to another individual's worldview, to try and win 311 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: someone over with your true version of reality versus there 312 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: they're you know, their illusion based understanding of reality. But 313 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: it also gets down to like what is our perception 314 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: of reality itself? These mental images that fill our mind 315 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: when we close our eyes, those are imperfect. But also 316 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: the mental images when we have our eyes open, we're 317 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: still just in a sense, we are still just seeing 318 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: those shadows on the walls of the cave. Yeah. So 319 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: Aristotle also referred to mental imagery and his work referred 320 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: to it as a as a fantasia with an A 321 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: with a P, not an APR, not the Disney movie. Uh. 322 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: And this was central to his theory of memory. Yeah, 323 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: though you know, I can see why the Disney movie 324 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: would be called that, I mean they it evokes the 325 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: concept of fantasy, even though he didn't I think directly 326 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: mean fantasy and the way we do, like somebody coming 327 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: up with a with a fantasy to escape from life. Yeah, 328 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: it was the idea of being able to to imagine 329 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: things in your mind. Now. Reneed I Carts also thought 330 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: a lot about mental imagery and how they form in 331 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: the mind. Uh. The view that an idea is a 332 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: quasi perceptual thing, perhaps even pictorial formed in the imagination, 333 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: and he did distinguish between images formed in the brain 334 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: and ideas in the mind. Because he was a duelist. 335 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: He saw uh, he saw the mind and the body 336 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: as separate. The essence of mind is thought, and the 337 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: body is an extension of it. Thoughts are not extended 338 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: in space, but the body is. Now, that's where in 339 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: philosophy you have. You have like idealism, which states that 340 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: reality is equivalent to mental images, and the mental images 341 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: are reality itself. Well, yeah, I mean, if you want 342 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: to take this very far, the people who believe in 343 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: hard core idealism would probably say that there is no 344 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: like that reality is merely the mental image of a 345 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: higher being or something like that. Yeah. So, as you 346 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: can see, you can really go down the deep end, 347 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: into the deep end contemplating mental imagery and what are 348 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: the philosophical ramifications of it. Um, there's a you know, 349 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: there's a lot, There's a great deal more we can 350 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: discuss this kind of the philosophical groundwork. I guess you 351 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: could say. Um. For instance, though in the nineteen eighties 352 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: there's a great deal of debate over the over the 353 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: connection from between mental images and language. So one side 354 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: argued that representations underlying the experience of mental imagery are 355 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: the same type as those used in the language. And 356 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: then there was the other camp, and they held that 357 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: that these representations served to depict, not describe objects. Okay, 358 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: so what does that mean in practice? Well, my understanding 359 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: is that basically comes down to, you know, to what 360 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: extent is mental imagery like the the the groundwork of 361 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: language itself. Um Well, like I said earlier, at times, 362 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: it feels like it's it's very difficult to um to 363 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: overstate the importance of mental imagery in our perceptions of reality. 364 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: Um So, just how deep does that go? Does it 365 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: underlie just about everything in cognition? Does an underlie language? 366 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: Does it underlie um, just every little detail of our experience? Yeah, well, 367 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: this does seem to sort of tie into us stuff 368 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: we talked about in the Tip of the Tongue episode, 369 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: where you can you can perhaps you can have the 370 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: face in your mind, you know, oh, I know this 371 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: actor's face, and you can picture it, and you can 372 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: know the actor's name well enough that if somebody said it, 373 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: you'd be like, yeah, that's it. You'd immediately recognize it. 374 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: But you can't make the connection but of course, in 375 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: recent years we've seen the study of mental imagery make 376 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: a more scientific transition. I think we we've started to 377 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: look at it from a neuroscientific point of view, where 378 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: people are saying, Okay, well, let's identify what brain regions 379 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: are actually being used and activated when people are in 380 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: the process of coming up with mental pictures. And one 381 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: of the sources we used for this episode, it was 382 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: a paper by Adams Zalman and colleagues, and and uh, 383 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: these authors identify that essentially in the brain voluntary imagery 384 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: that the mental images you come up with have been 385 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: associated in previous research with the brains frontal parietal executive 386 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: systems or of the executive control you know, the president 387 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: of your brain sitting there directing traffic, and with the 388 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: posterior brain regions, which you know in the back of 389 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: the brain that's often the identified with visual processing. And 390 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: together you sort of put these things, uh into a 391 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: teamwork relationship, and they are what allows you to come 392 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: up with mental pictures. That's right. And uh, we've also 393 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: seen studies where taking f M R I, we've done 394 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: p and we've done pet scans on individuals summoning mental images. 395 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: You know, they're asked to summon a mental image, and 396 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: then we look at the brain see what it's doing 397 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: in real time, and uh reveals that activation in brain 398 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: areas that are used in visual perception, which doesn't sound 399 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: that surprising. Uh, this is pretty cool. Visual and mental 400 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: imaging share roughly two thirds of the same active activated 401 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: brain regions. So there's a lot of a lot of 402 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: cross over there between the visual and mental imaging systems, 403 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: a lot of shared mechanics. Yeah, Like if, for example, 404 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: if you show somebody a picture of somebody's face and 405 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: then you ask the same test subject imagine this person's face, 406 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: a lot of their brain activity is going to be 407 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: roughly similar. Right. In fact, study found that when the 408 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: same task is performed in perception and then with eyes 409 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: closed using mental images, you get overlaps. So so again, 410 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the same mechanisms, a lot of the 411 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: same brain equipment is being used, whether you're dealing with 412 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: just visual perception or mental perception. Of course, that's funny 413 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: because the phenomenal experience is completely different, right, Like you, uh, 414 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: somebody to somebody who has a fantasia. This might be 415 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: new information, but it's obviously not going to be new 416 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: information to most people out there. Uh, when you picture 417 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: something in your mind's eye, it is extremely different than 418 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: seeing it in front of you. But it's hard to 419 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: explain how it's different. Yeah, you know, Yeah, you know. 420 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 1: There's a there's a two thousand fIF BBC article titled 421 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: a Fantasia A Life without Mental Images by James Gallagher, 422 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: and I'll be sure to include a link to that 423 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: article on the landing page for this episode Stuff to 424 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com because in addition to running 425 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: through some examples of uh, some accounts of individuals who 426 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: have this blindness of the mind's eye, which we're going 427 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: to discuss more here, there's also a quiz you can take, uh, 428 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: and it's just an eight question quiz about asking you 429 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: like the level of detail that you experience when you 430 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: are asked to mentally envision uh, you know someone you 431 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: see every day? Uh, A sunrise, I believe, clouds in 432 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: the sky, the clouds clearing in the sky, a thunderstorm, 433 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: the the these sort of images some of the same 434 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: kind of stuff that we ask you to summon at 435 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 1: the beginning of this episode. Yeah, but it doesn't just 436 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: ask you can you picture it? It asks you to 437 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: rank level of details. So, for example, it might say, picture, 438 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: get someone in mind, and maybe a close friend or 439 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: spouse or close family member, and picture that person, and 440 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: then on a scale of not very well at all, 441 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: too extremely well, how well can you see in your 442 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: mind's eye the contours of their face and the shape 443 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: of their body, and what color their eyes are, and 444 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: and so it's asking for specific details of the image 445 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: to get at the vividness of the picture in your mind. 446 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: And that suggests to me, and I think their findings 447 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: do suggest so far that it's not just an on 448 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: off switch. It's not like you can make pictures with 449 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: your mind or you can't. There seems to be a spectrum. 450 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: Some people seem to have very intense, very lucid, vivid 451 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: mental images. Other people have kind of hazier, blurrier or 452 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: more generic mental images. And some people have almost no 453 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: mental imagery at all, or even report having none. And 454 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,239 Speaker 1: it's so at the opposite into the scale of the 455 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: main topic today. You know, we're talking about these a fantasiacs, 456 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: but there's also what's come to be known as hyper fantasia, right, 457 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: And these would be people who I think would experience 458 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: visions of the mind ie with just extreme lucidity is 459 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: far compared to most of us. So they're not just 460 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: vague pictures, but they have bright colors and vivid details. 461 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: So if I tell you imagine a beach, you might 462 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: picture sand and waves and maybe some umbrellas. But I 463 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: bet you wouldn't naturally say, Okay, I can tell you 464 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: there are seven umbrellas in the picture in my mind, 465 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: and these are the colors of stripes on the umbrellas. 466 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: But somebody might actually be able to have that level 467 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: of vividness in their mind's eye. Yeah. This idea of 468 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: a spectrum of of of mental detail and visual imagery, 469 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: it uh, it really makes you reanalyze just how you're 470 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: painting the picture in your head of these memories, you know, 471 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: I get. I think we both scored around the same 472 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: on this where we had kind of like typical image. 473 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: I was in the typical range. Yeah, But even even 474 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: then I was I found myself asking questions like, well, 475 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: how when I think about these people that I see 476 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: every day in my life and they are very important 477 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: to me, Uh, you know, what does it mean that 478 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: I don't have like just a picture perfect vision of them? 479 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: What Does it mean that when I think back on 480 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: a beach, I find my like a sunrise on a beach, 481 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: I keep thinking of, you know, images of sunrises from 482 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: paintings and films more so than actual beach sunrises that 483 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: I've witnessed. Do you think about the final scene of 484 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: the Warriors? Yeah, that sort of thing. Like I end 485 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: up like putting a fictional Instagram filter over all of 486 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,719 Speaker 1: these these memories, and I'm not really remembering. I'm not 487 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: really summoning a mental image of a thing I actually saw. 488 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: I'm summoning this mental image that's composed of these varying elements. 489 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: You know. One thing I read when we were doing 490 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: our research for this episode was a first person essay 491 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: that I came across the software designer Blake Ross, who 492 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: was involved in Mozilla Firefox on Facebook, and he's also 493 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: done some screenwriting, and he found out after reading an 494 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: article I think in either in the New York Times 495 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: or in Discover magazine by Carl Zimmer about a fantasia 496 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: that he he had this experience, and he also was 497 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: just shocked to find out that other people weren't like him. 498 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: His discovery was that, oh, I never realized other people 499 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: could see pictures in their minds. His whole life, he 500 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: thought when people said stuff like picture this, they were 501 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: just being metaphorical. He didn't realize other people could actually 502 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: hold these pictures in their brains. And in this essay 503 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: he starts he recounts how when he found out about this, 504 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: he was asking all his friends, what's it like to 505 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: picture something in your mind? And asking all these questions 506 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: I've never really thought to ask myself about my process 507 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: of mental imagery that we're very interesting, like he was 508 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: asking his friends, Okay, when you see a picture in 509 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: your mind, like you picture a beach, is it still? 510 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: Is it a still photograph? Or is it more like 511 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: video where things are moving? And that distinction just hit 512 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: me like a wrecking ball. I was like, I don't know. 513 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: When I picture something in my mind, I can make 514 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: it move consciously if I need to. But when I 515 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: just picture a beach, it is almost neither still nor moving. 516 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: It is it exists in super position between these two things. 517 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: It's kept for me, I guess when I think about it, 518 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of like the old music video for What 519 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: Was It? Where the people go into the painting or 520 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: into the drawing on take on Me. Yeah, yeah, I 521 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: feel like my my mental imagery is kind of like 522 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: the take on Me video. It's stuff is moving, but 523 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: it's all kind of station are as. Well. Yeah, well, 524 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I certainly can imagine something moving on purpose, 525 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: But when I just picture a thing and I don't 526 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: imagine it moving on purpose, I don't think it's still 527 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: but it's not moving either. It's very strange. It reminds 528 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: me of two of the experience of reading a book, 529 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: especially a book that is set more or less in 530 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: the real world, And at times I'll find myself stopping 531 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: and thinking about, like, oh, I'm picturing this in this 532 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: living room from that I that I visited or lived 533 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: in at some point in my life, Like that, for 534 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: some reason, is the living room that my brain is 535 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: drawing in for this setting where I'm picturing this character. Sometimes, 536 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the character just is that character and 537 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: that and there's not really like a firm mental image 538 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: in your head exactly what they look like. Other times 539 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: you can't shake their um their appearance as being that 540 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: of someone you know or or you know a character 541 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: actor from a movie, etcetera. But I do find myself 542 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: like analyzing, like where are all these elements coming from Like, 543 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: some of them are obviously coming from the author. The 544 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: author is providing the blueprint, the author is providing the scaffolding. 545 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: But then that scaffolding is kind of like magnetically drawing 546 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: in elements from my own visual memory. Yeah, definitely, I 547 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking about. There. Uh. An interesting 548 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: thing about fiction that that Blake Ross says in his 549 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: first person essay about this is he He reports that, 550 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: so he's always read books, you know, he's enjoyed fiction, 551 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: and he's written fiction. But when he writes fiction, he 552 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: has almost no visual description because he just doesn't picture 553 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: things in his head. And when he reads, he skips 554 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: visual description. He just kind of jumps over it. That's 555 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: not it has no meaning to him. Really. Huh, yeah, 556 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: it's it's it's fascinating. Okay, now it's time to take 557 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: a quick break to hear from our sponsor. But when 558 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: we come back, more on the mind's eye and a fantasia. 559 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: All right, So, just how common is a fantasia? Um, 560 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: it's a difficult question because this is something that hasn't 561 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: really been uh in the public mind set. It hasn't 562 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: been out there. It hasn't been something you could a 563 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: pamphle it on until very recently. There was one interesting 564 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: study on this from before it had a name. Before this, 565 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: a fantasia term came out that was studying sort of 566 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: the lack of generative power and mental imagery. And that 567 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: that was in two thousand nine, right, study by Fall, yeah, 568 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: Bill Fall, psychologists. And what did it find? He found 569 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: that between two point one percent and two point seven 570 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: percent of participants in his study claimed to have no 571 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: visual imagination. So that's where we got that number up 572 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: at the beginning that it might be around one in 573 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: fifty of you who just didn't see any pictures when 574 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: you were following along in the story with us. Yeah, Now, 575 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: of course we have to that that number is not 576 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: coming from like a you know, large scale study, so 577 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: the results aren't really fully supported, but it gives us 578 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: sort of at least a ballpark. I think, yeah, it's 579 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: something to work with. But but a lot of this 580 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,479 Speaker 1: recent research has popped up because of an interesting I'm 581 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: about to use a great word here, synergy between between 582 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: actual medical research and some writing in the popular press. Actually, 583 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: I think like Carl Zimmer's articles had something to do 584 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: with people coming out of the woodwork to say, Hey, 585 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: now I have this experience of a fantasia. I can't 586 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: make mental pictures. But it started with the research of 587 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: Adam Zaman, right. Yeah, he's a professor of cognitive and 588 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: behavioral neurology of the University of Exeter and Medical School, 589 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: and along with co authors uh Um MICHELLEA. De Wira, 590 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: and Surio Della Sala, they coined the term a fantasia 591 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: in their two thousand fifteen paper Lives Without Imagery congenital 592 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: a Fantasia that was published in the journal Cortex. Now, 593 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: people had, as we said, previously described things along these 594 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: lines like it had always been kind of noted that, well, 595 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: there's some people out there who say that they can't 596 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: create any mental pictures. But nobody really looked very deeply 597 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: into this, and I think some of the earth I 598 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: think the earliest example that the office we were looking 599 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: at were able to draw on was just the nineteenth century. Now, 600 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: this condition and the condition had in these earlier works 601 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: of condition had previously been referred to as a defective 602 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: revisualization or visual ear reminiscence. What a great word, ear reminiscence. 603 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: Somebody was trying to make us say that, yeah, sorry, 604 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: not gonna work. It's a fantasia. Uh. And there are 605 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: skeptics actually out there who say that that what we're 606 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: talking about here does not exist at all. I think 607 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: that's fascinating because how would you prove them wrong? Yeah? 608 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: And why why would you make that argument? I don't know. Well, 609 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: I mean, arguing about the existence of somebody else's internal experience. 610 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's just it's crazy. Yeah, I mean it 611 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: almost seems seems like you'd have to be making the 612 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: counter argument of saying, oh, you don't have any fantasia, 613 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: You just have a lazy mind, right, your imagination is 614 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: just a bit stunted. But I can understand why people 615 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: might be tempted to this direction because I, as I 616 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: we've said before, I think you probably would agree with this. 617 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: I can't imagine what this is like. Yeah, I have 618 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: no ability to you whatsoever, to put myself in a 619 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,479 Speaker 1: position of not being able to make mental pictures that 620 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: I don't even understand what that means really, Right, It's 621 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: kind of like if most of us are more or 622 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: less the same computer hardware with differing software. You know, 623 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: we can talk all day about I don't understand how 624 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: your software works, and this is how my software works. 625 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: But here we're talking about essentially a difference in hardware. Um. 626 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if that analogy completely holds up, but 627 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: essentially this is something a little more, uh, you know, 628 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: base level is different and and how do we even 629 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 1: begin to describe that to each other? Yeah? So Zaman 630 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: first started studying this, I think in two thousand ten, right, 631 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: because of the story of this. So there was a 632 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: patient who reported having contracted, like acquired a fantasia after 633 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: a medical procedure, right, right, So there was a sixty 634 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,879 Speaker 1: five year old man who had coronary angioplasty and that's 635 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: where they So if you have pockage in one of 636 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: your arteries or something like that, they'll open up one 637 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: of your arteries and stick a catheter in it, and 638 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: somewhere along your body wherever the blockage is occurring, they'll 639 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: inflate a small balloon or something inside your artery to 640 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: widen it, essentially and allow easier passage of blood. It's 641 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: not the kind of thing that you would initially imagine 642 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: altering your brain functioning. Yeah, and it's generally not considered 643 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: a major surgical procedure. It's like it's you. I think 644 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: you're typically left awake for it. They don't even necessarily 645 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: put you under, though they might need to give you 646 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: some drugs to calm you down. But yeah, it's this 647 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,360 Speaker 1: is this is not like a gigantic big deal. So 648 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: it's coronary angioplasty. And after the procedure, this patient was 649 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,760 Speaker 1: unable to form mental pictures and he had not had 650 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: this problem before, and so yeah, and that's where this 651 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: study comes in. And afterwards, after there were some pieces 652 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: published about this, Zaman started to hear from people who said, Hey, 653 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: I have this condition. And not only do I have it, 654 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: I didn't get it from I didn't have an angioplastic 655 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: or any you know, injury or or surgery. I've always 656 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: had it. This is just how I am. So Zaman 657 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: and his co author's day they looked at twenty one 658 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,439 Speaker 1: of these self reporting cases and then they discovered most 659 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: of these individuals um kind of discovered their condition, their 660 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: own condition in their twenties when through conversations or or readings, 661 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: they found a discrepancy between how other people described the 662 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: use of the mind's eye and their own experiences. Can 663 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: you imagine. I just have a hard time imagining how 664 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: you get that far in life without realizing. Now, this 665 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: is another thing that's addressed yet again in that that 666 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: essay I mentioned by Blake Ross where he just talks 667 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: about how whenever he heard people using the language of 668 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: the mind's eye were talking about, you know, picturing something, 669 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: imagining something, he thought it was all metaphorical. He thought 670 00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: they were just talking about conceptually meditating on the idea 671 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,959 Speaker 1: of a beach or something. So you're sitting there thinking 672 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: about the concepts of sand and water and sunshine and umbrellas. 673 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: But he didn't realize that other people were literally seeing 674 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: something in their mind. Yeah. I mean, it's like we 675 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: said earlier, when one when you have all these different 676 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: types of memory, and if one is taking you know, 677 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: a back seat, the other ones are going to compensate. 678 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,439 Speaker 1: So it's not like if you have a fantasia, you're 679 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: not gonna be able to function in society at all. 680 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: It seems like quite the contrary. Uh, individuals find a 681 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: way to function. They find they just end up utilizing 682 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: these different modes of memory. Okay, but of these twenty 683 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: one self reporting cases, what did Zamon find about them? Well, 684 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: so I found that nineteen of the twenty one were male. 685 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: And it's worth noting that this might have more to 686 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: do with the readership of Discover magazine. This is not 687 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 1: a randomized, self selective right. This is where people would 688 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: have read that Carl Zimmer article and they were the 689 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: ones who said, hey, so yeah, I just might have 690 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: to do with the male readership Discover. On the to hand, 691 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: they found it. Five of the twenty one reported that 692 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,439 Speaker 1: it affected relatives as well. This is something I've read 693 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: of people's experiences online. Some of them say, one of 694 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: my parents has this. Yeah, so this leads us to 695 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: believe it might be hereditary. And then ten of the 696 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: twenty one said, uh, said that all all versions of 697 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: the imagery were affected. Now, now, like I alluded to earlier, 698 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: this does seem to me, based on what I've read 699 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 1: so far, to be sort of a um it's not 700 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: necessarily an all or nothing. It's sort of a spectrum condition. 701 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: Because one of the things that these people reported is 702 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 1: that it's not like they've never ever in their entire 703 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: live seni mental image. They just generally don't see them. 704 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: Like some of them sometimes reported that they might have 705 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: had very brief involuntary mental images like they they might involuntarily, 706 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: quote flash an image of somebody's face. But it's just 707 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: that this is rare and they can't do it on command. Right, 708 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: It's something that just might occur during while they're awake. 709 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: It might occur during dreams some of them. This is 710 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: another thing, the interesting variation on dream experience. Some report 711 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: that they don't have dreams at all or don't remember 712 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: having them if they do have them, and some report 713 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: that they do have dreams and can experience visual content 714 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,280 Speaker 1: and dreams, but just can't do it while they're awake 715 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: or on command. Yeah. Zeman is a big believer that 716 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: this is essentially a variant of neuropsychological functioning and kind 717 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: of like synesthesia in a sense, and again kind of 718 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: on on a spectrum as well. So, so again, don't 719 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: think of it as a uh you know, as a 720 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: as a as a brain injury. Don't think of it 721 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: as a as as an ailment. It is just a different, uh, 722 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: a different way that the mental chorus is coming together 723 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: to receive reality. Yeah. Another thing that I thought was 724 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: interesting is, uh, so we've been talking about images being 725 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: visual as in like what you know, light, photons, and 726 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: the eyes. But this does seem to extend to varying 727 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: degrees to other senses as well. Right, some of the 728 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: people who report that they have a fantasia for visual 729 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: images also can't imagine the feelings of other senses, if 730 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And then some report that 731 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: they sort of can, again, making it seem like a 732 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: kind of spectrum issue, like can you hear a piece 733 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: of music that you're not currently listening to? Yeah? Yeah, 734 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: that's that's That's another good one. I certainly can. Like 735 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: one of the ones I wanted to think was the 736 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: Star Wars theme. I can just play the whole Star 737 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,359 Speaker 1: Wars theme in my mind from beginning to end. Yeah, 738 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: And certainly we've all experienced earworms, so that's kind of 739 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: a variant of that now. Um. Also in this uh 740 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: the Zaman paper, they said of the individuals, a number 741 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: of them reported modest effects on their relationships, which I 742 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: guess one can imagine if you and your um, your 743 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: significant other are ultimately engaging with mental imagery and drastically 744 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: different ways. And also, fourteen of the twenty one participants 745 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: reported difficulties with autobiographical memory. So here's a quick quote 746 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: from the paper. The same number identified h compensatory strengths 747 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: in verbal, mathematical, and logical domains. They their successful performance 748 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: in a task that would normally elicit imagery count how 749 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: many windows there are in your house or apartment, etcetera, 750 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,720 Speaker 1: was achieved by drawing on what participants described as knowledge, memory, 751 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: and sub visual models. Yeah, this is interesting. So this 752 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: again gets back into the idea that you end up 753 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: just utilizing different modes of memory the workforce of the brain. Yeah, right, 754 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: because I can't imagine. So if somebody said how many 755 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: windows are there in your house? I would do that 756 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: with a picture. I would picture my house and sort 757 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: of picture walking around the sides of my house and 758 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: seeing how many windows are there. But they can do 759 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: this without the picture. It's not like they're unable to 760 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: do it. So there's something else kicking in. Must be 761 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: conceptual facts logged about the house. Okay, so we need 762 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: to take one more quick break and then we'll be 763 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: right back with more or a fantasia. Now that BBC 764 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: paper that we mentioned earlier by James Gallagher. In that paper, 765 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:16,800 Speaker 1: Gallagher spoke with one Neil kin Mure of Lancaster. Uh, 766 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: this is a self reporting individual with blindness in the 767 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: mind's eye, and he provided some interesting insight on the condition. 768 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: So I have just a couple of quotes here from 769 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: that that piece that I found were interesting. He said, quote, 770 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,280 Speaker 1: my stepfather, when I couldn't sleep, told me to count sheep, 771 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: and he explained what he meant. I tried to do it, 772 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: and I couldn't see any sheep jumping over fences. There 773 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: was nothing to count. No, that's uh, that's that's an 774 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 1: interesting because I guess that might be one of the 775 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: earliest examples of of here mentally mentally imagined this. Like 776 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 1: with my own uh son, I had a similar situation. 777 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: Like I distinctly remember the first time I told him 778 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: to close his eyes and encouraged him to imagine an 779 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: elephant because he was really obsessed with with elephants at 780 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 1: the time. And um, I saw the delight on his 781 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: face as he imagined the elephant. Um. But you know, 782 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: after doing this research, I realized, well, there's equally a 783 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: possibility that we wouldn't be able to see the elephant, 784 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 1: and you know, there wouldn't be anything we're go wrong 785 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: with him if he couldn't see it. In the BBC 786 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: piece um the the The interviewed individual, Neil kim Miller, 787 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: also said that he had a terrible memory, but he 788 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: was good with facts and and then there's an additional quote. 789 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: This is the hardest thing to describe what happens in 790 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,359 Speaker 1: my head when I think about things. When I think 791 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: about my fiancee, there is no image, but I am 792 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: definitely thinking about her. I know today she has her 793 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: hair up at the back, she's brunette. But I'm not 794 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 1: describing an image I am looking at I'm remembering features 795 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: about her. That's the strangest thing, and maybe that is 796 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: a source of some regret. Yeah, I mean, this is 797 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,359 Speaker 1: the thing because typically these people report that they it's 798 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: not like they can't they don't know what somebody looks like, right. 799 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: They's not like that scene in like Hannibal where they 800 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: show face blindness as just seeing people with like smooth 801 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: skin over their face. Yeah. What's that condition called a 802 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: congenital prosopagnosia? Is that it where you you have a 803 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: born condition where you just can't recognize faces people. You 804 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: see people who are familiar to you, but you just 805 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: they just don't look like anybody, uh you know, whoever 806 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: that is and and it's not like that you, or 807 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: at least not for everybody. Like we said, there seems 808 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: to be a wide variation in how this applies to 809 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: people's lives. But I haven't read that it's like that 810 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: for most people. It seems like they report, yeah, they 811 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,319 Speaker 1: recognize people. Once they see a picture of of a 812 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: close family member or of the president or whoever it is, 813 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 1: they know who it is. They just can't make the 814 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: picture without looking at it. It's almost kind of like 815 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: we talked about in the P versus NP episode, like 816 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: the kinds of problems that once a solution is presented, 817 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: you can easily check to see if it's correct, but 818 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: you can't come up with a solution and a reasonable 819 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: amount of time by yourself. Uh. It sounds like a 820 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: version of that. You can't make the picture, but when 821 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 1: somebody shows you the picture you can say, oh, yeah, 822 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: that's it. Yeah definitely. But anyway, I I just find 823 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: this condition really fascinating. And so if you yourself are 824 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: somebody who thinks you may be experiencing a fantasia, or 825 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: if you just want to learn more about it, one 826 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,399 Speaker 1: interesting resource I think would be to go and look 827 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: at some of the message boards online that have recently 828 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: been created by people who claimed to have this experience, 829 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: because there's one I found that was a fant dot asia. Nice. Yeah, 830 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: but it's it's just like a forum online people talking 831 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: about their experiences. Uh, and it seems to be a 832 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: lot of people having this kind of uh, this awakening 833 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 1: kind of experience. They're like, oh, man, I didn't even 834 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: realize that this was what was causing all this confusion 835 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: between me and other people all these years, or I 836 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,880 Speaker 1: didn't realize I was the I wasn't the only one 837 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,959 Speaker 1: who was like this, or you know, people really seem 838 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: to be having a lot of fun coming together with 839 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,439 Speaker 1: a community of other people who have the same issue. Well, 840 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: like it reminds one of the whole you know, the 841 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: old example of hey, what if when I think of 842 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: purple and you think of purple? What if we what 843 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 1: if we're each seeing different colors? But there's never a 844 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: way to prove that out. But but this is kind 845 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: of like a case where what it's kind of like 846 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: if you were one day able to say, oh, yeah, 847 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: the purple I see is different from the purple these 848 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: people see. I'm gonna I'm gonna go hang out now 849 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: with individuals who see purple the way I see. People 850 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: never understood what the deal with Barney was, but now 851 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: I get it. Uh No. But so I have all 852 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,839 Speaker 1: these questions about a fantasia, like what it means, and 853 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: again just emphasize it does seem like we haven't nailed 854 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,719 Speaker 1: down that there's a specific cause and a very specific 855 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,319 Speaker 1: effect yet, because there seemed to be a range of 856 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: different ways this manifests in people's minds. It's associated with 857 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 1: different things. Some people dream, some people don't. Some people 858 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: have memory problems, some people don't. Um. But one of 859 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: the things I was wondering about was can fantasiacs hallucinate? Yeah? 860 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: So what if an a fantasiac takes a drug that 861 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: often causes visual hallucinations? Do they see anything different? Yeah? 862 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,399 Speaker 1: Are they just going to get the non visual hallucinatory effects? Uh? 863 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: Or is it going to sort of ignite a type 864 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 1: of visual imagery that isn't normally there sort of heighten 865 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: the flashes that some of the you know, the the 866 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: the occasional flashes that some of these individuals experience. Yeah, 867 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: And so I looked this up actually on the on 868 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 1: the forum boards, and they had actually addressed it. So 869 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: one member of a message board said they typed a 870 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,879 Speaker 1: question that struck me as intriguing. This person said they 871 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,560 Speaker 1: were confused. Essentially, they said, how is hallucinating different from 872 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,399 Speaker 1: seeing things in your mind? Again, that question is hard 873 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,960 Speaker 1: to answer, but to somebody who has, uh, you know, 874 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: a mind's eye, it's very clearly different. I don't feel 875 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: like I'm hallucinating when I imagine something, but try to 876 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,360 Speaker 1: describe the difference. Well, you're seeing something in your mind 877 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:06,799 Speaker 1: that's not there. Okay, that sounds like hallucination, but yeah, 878 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: but then it's also yeah, then it's also just like 879 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: seeing Yeah. So yeah, we come back again to the 880 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,360 Speaker 1: cave and we're all still lined up staring at the 881 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 1: play of shadows on the wall. Yeah. Some of us 882 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 1: maybe just have a slightly different view of the shadows 883 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,839 Speaker 1: and others. Okay, Robert, I've got a question for you. Okay, 884 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: hit me. Do you think you could try to simulate 885 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 1: this in you're in your own mind? Like? Could you try? 886 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,279 Speaker 1: I know you it would be impossible for us to 887 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,759 Speaker 1: really fully be able to do it, But can you 888 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 1: try to go through a standard day to day process 889 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: something you would do all the time without using any 890 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 1: mental pictures. I was trying this morning, and I couldn't 891 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 1: do it. Just trying. Yeah, trying not to think of 892 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: mental images immediately calls to mind mental images. It's like, 893 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,360 Speaker 1: you know, telling somebody like, think of a rhinoceros wearing 894 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,080 Speaker 1: a jet pack. You just did it. Uh. And even 895 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,520 Speaker 1: it works in the in the general sense, just saying, 896 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,360 Speaker 1: try not to think of mental images, and immediately my 897 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: mind is filled with rhinoceroses and jet packs. Yeah. I mean, 898 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,760 Speaker 1: if anything, I have to try and keep from daydreaming 899 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: and keep from or keep from you know, pummeling myself 900 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,720 Speaker 1: with with different mental images. Uh, and and actually focus 901 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,799 Speaker 1: in on a task, you know. Yeah. I mean the 902 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: way this really seems like it would come through is like, 903 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: how does if you can't have mental images, how do 904 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,080 Speaker 1: you have fantasies about things you would like to do? 905 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,880 Speaker 1: So you imagine, you know, your boss makes you furious 906 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 1: and you wish you could punch him in the nose. 907 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 1: You wouldn't actually do it, but you at least have 908 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,960 Speaker 1: that image for a moment, right. Uh. I think that's 909 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: probably a nearly universal experience for people, and of having 910 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,719 Speaker 1: thought of it. But what happens if you can't have 911 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 1: that image in your mind, do you do you think 912 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 1: about it conceptually? It's like I I just thinking about 913 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,719 Speaker 1: the concept of punching my boss in the face. Well, 914 00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:02,959 Speaker 1: and then also even if like I was just thinking 915 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,759 Speaker 1: to myself, like, what are some of the times when 916 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 1: I'm actually able to to not, you know, mentally imagine 917 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,520 Speaker 1: anything and have these mental visualizations in my mind, I think, well, okay, 918 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,439 Speaker 1: maybe when I'm doing yoga because I'm able to sort 919 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,360 Speaker 1: of shut out a lot of stuff. I'm able to 920 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,200 Speaker 1: shut off the default mode network to a large extent. 921 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: But even then, if I'm focusing on a pose, I 922 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,080 Speaker 1: am also focusing on a mental image of what I 923 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 1: must look like in that pose, which may or may 924 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 1: not have match up to how I'm actually doing the pose. 925 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,840 Speaker 1: So what is it like then to engage in a 926 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: in a physical activity like that with a fantasia? I mean, 927 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously you can do it, but it just 928 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: kind of drives home just how much mental visualizations, um, 929 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: how big a role they play and just everything we do. Okay, 930 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,360 Speaker 1: another question fiction writing. This is something again from the 931 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,399 Speaker 1: from the Blake cross Piece. So he's he is, He's 932 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,760 Speaker 1: done some screenwriting, and he describes his process for fiction 933 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,200 Speaker 1: writing without having mental images, which he described in terms 934 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,600 Speaker 1: of words and parts of speech. I thought this was interesting. 935 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:18,040 Speaker 1: So he said, like, when I'm imagining something, I imagine 936 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,560 Speaker 1: a noun, the word, and then I imagine a verb 937 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,600 Speaker 1: that follows it, the word um. And so there's something 938 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,799 Speaker 1: very different about his process for writing than I would have. 939 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,279 Speaker 1: So when I'm imagining a scene, there's there's translation going on. 940 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,600 Speaker 1: I think of a picture, and then I have to 941 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,360 Speaker 1: put the picture into words. But could it be possible 942 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,800 Speaker 1: that this allows people to do creative writing without any translation. 943 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:49,279 Speaker 1: The original creative thing that's happening is words. That's interesting. Yeah, 944 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,640 Speaker 1: Like they're not having They're not in that situation that 945 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,680 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, where as an artist or a creator 946 00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,600 Speaker 1: of any kind, you are stuck trying to translate the 947 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,160 Speaker 1: mental image into who something another person can share in. 948 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 1: Like you said, there's no translation going there. Well, it 949 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,080 Speaker 1: makes me wonder if the maybe the ultimate form of 950 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: direct written communication with almost nothing lost in between, would 951 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,280 Speaker 1: be an a fantasiac writing to another a fantasiac somebody, 952 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:23,160 Speaker 1: because there you're not translating it into pictures on both 953 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,399 Speaker 1: sides or on either side. I will say that something 954 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 1: that does remind me of is like in my own 955 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,799 Speaker 1: writing process. There there's definitely the point where I have 956 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 1: an image in my mind or seen in my mind, 957 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,000 Speaker 1: characters in my mind, and I'm trying to bring that 958 00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: to life on the page. But then if I'll get 959 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,240 Speaker 1: into these situations where I'm writing and in a way 960 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: what I'm writing is coming before the mental image, so 961 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,080 Speaker 1: I kind of create the point. Not to say it's 962 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,960 Speaker 1: it's a fantasia at all, but I'm kind of writing 963 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,239 Speaker 1: before the mental visualization. I'm kind of reading what I've 964 00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:00,879 Speaker 1: writen I've written and an experienced it more or less 965 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 1: in real time as a reader would. Oh yeah, well, 966 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:04,920 Speaker 1: I bet you've had the experience I know I have 967 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,279 Speaker 1: of writing something before you get the picture, and then 968 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,040 Speaker 1: getting the picture and then going back and revising what 969 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: you've written based on the picture. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. 970 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,799 Speaker 1: This so this is yeah, the writing is definitely a 971 00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,239 Speaker 1: fascinating area to think about, this because it is this 972 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,280 Speaker 1: sort of it's the mental image, but in this stripping 973 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 1: down of the mental image, the translating it into into 974 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:31,360 Speaker 1: another form. Uh yeah, yeah, well it's fascinating to be 975 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,520 Speaker 1: coming into this topic and it's such an interesting time 976 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,960 Speaker 1: for it, you know, when when it seems we're on 977 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,040 Speaker 1: the cusp of a lot of new learning about what 978 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,759 Speaker 1: this condition is, how many people have it, what it's 979 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,760 Speaker 1: like for them, and Hey, if you out there actually 980 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,680 Speaker 1: experience this, if you have some level of a fantasia 981 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 1: or you're toward that end of the mental image re spectrum, 982 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,440 Speaker 1: I think it would be great to hear about your experience, 983 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: if you want to write in and tell us what 984 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,960 Speaker 1: it's like. Yeah, and if you're on the other end 985 00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,200 Speaker 1: of the spectrum, if you're a hyper visualizer, let us 986 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,600 Speaker 1: know about that as well. Uh. In the meantime, head 987 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,120 Speaker 1: on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 988 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:07,919 Speaker 1: That is the mothership. That is where you will find 989 00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,719 Speaker 1: all the podcast episodes. You will find videos, blog post 990 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 1: links up to social media accounts such as Facebook and Twitter. 991 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:15,799 Speaker 1: We are blow the Mind on both of those. We 992 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,160 Speaker 1: also have accounts on Tumbler and Instagram. And if you 993 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,600 Speaker 1: want to get in touch with us with your experience 994 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,200 Speaker 1: of mental imagery or with feedback on this episode or 995 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,360 Speaker 1: any other, you can email us at blow the Mind 996 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:38,000 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. Well more on this 997 00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,680 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works? 998 00:54:40,719 --> 00:55:01,439 Speaker 1: Dot com not my boy,