WEBVTT - Ep 83: George The Poet + Benbrick 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.080 Where are You're out? In twenty nineteen? Are you hot 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:04.240 or are you cold? 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:07.160 I'm hot for now. 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:11.160 George the Poet wasn't talking about himself there, but he 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.800 might as well have been, because you get the sense 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:16.400 that this is George's year. Maybe you could have said 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.599 that about twenty eighteen to two. That's because, together with 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:24.240 sound designer and producer Ben Brick, George cooked up something 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:29.040 pretty special, the first series of their now multi award 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:30.600 winning podcast. 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:31.280 You might know it. 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.559 The title is pretty matter of fact. It's called have 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:38.120 you heard George's Podcast? And if the answer to that 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.559 is no, then, first off, what are you doing? Because 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.360 not only with a conversation you're about to hear make 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:47.599 much more sense if you go away and find it, 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:54.040 but also it's just an incredible, moving, thought provoking, innovative 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.400 piece of work, and I'm definitely not the only person 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.600 who considers it a real game change. It's also a 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:05.080 better introduction to George as a person, his past and 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:09.399 his future intention than any interview probably ever would be. 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:13.640 But that certainly doesn't stop me being extremely excited to 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.720 introduce George and Ben Brick as my guests on This 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.880 Evening's podcast, The timing is good because on Monday, the 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.760 fourth of November, the first batch of episodes from series two, 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.640 the brand new series of Have You Heard George's Podcast, 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.039 will arrive. You'll find them on the BBC Sounds app 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.039 first and then on other platforms. They're going to be 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:38.759 broadcast on Radio four and Radio one Extra as well. 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:41.880 Earlier this week I went to the studio in North 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.960 London where they made still are making in fact on 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.200 the podcast, and there's loads of chat in there about 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:49.560 what you can expect. 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:50.320 From season two. 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.160 So thank you to George the Poet, thank you to 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.960 Ben Brick. Please enjoy tonight's episode and as ever, if 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.559 you do like what you hear from Midnight Chats, please 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.280 consider supporting the podcast by subscribing to Loud and Quiet magazine. 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.400 We ship all over the world and all the information 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:10.119 is at Loud and Quiet dot com slash subscribe, where 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.680 we will post you our next nine issues of the 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.560 magazine for is little as three pounds per month. It 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.440 helps keep our independent magazine in print, it helps us 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:24.639 make this podcast. We're in Benbrick's studio just to sort 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.160 of set the scene for listeners. We're in your studio 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.560 in North London, and I'm imagining that given that season 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.080 two of your podcast is about to come out, you 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:37.120 have spent some seriously long hours in this room, most recently, 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.840 What's what's the day to day been like working on 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:41.960 season two of Have You Hear George's Podcast? 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.160 So we're trying to get a lot more done in 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.840 the time that we have than what was the case 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:49.000 previously last year. 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:49.840 But it's great. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.880 We're doing what we love, building on the learnings from 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.400 the last chapter of the podcast. Benbrick's getting better and 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.600 better at what he does and endlessently motivated, So it's 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:01.000 all good. 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.160 The way people are going to hear this podcast series 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.080 is slightly different from the first series, which you would 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.040 make an episode, then you had a period of time 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.480 to let that kind of sink in, think about where 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.400 you're going to go next with it, perhaps a longer 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.200 period of time to work on things. This time is 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.400 all going to come in one go So how did 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.480 that make you work differently? Like day one of working 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.160 on the podcast, what did that look like when you 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:26.280 knew you had to put together ten episodes? 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.000 Yeah, so it's actually coming in two goals, two sets 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:34.399 of five, and that really shaped the writing process. 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:35.560 I'm not going to lie. 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:41.800 It made me approach the overall narrative very differently. Writing 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.640 a few stories in the last chapter of the podcast 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:52.120 episodes three and eight and other elements across made me 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:56.800 really curious about story development, character development, character art. So 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.640 I started reading a lot about that last year, and 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:01.320 I think think a lot of that reading are starting 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.080 to express itself in this chapter. It feels more of 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.360 a continuous journey. And at the same time, I guess 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.840 all of my essay writing from younger years is really 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.200 coming back to me, and I'm starting to think about 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.080 the arguments that I'm constructing and being a lot more 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.839 deliberate and ensuring that they're understood. 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.359 Episode eight of the first series of the podcast is 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.279 one of the most ambitious piece of audio that I 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:29.120 think I've ever heard. It's effectively this inner dialogue that 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.800 you're having with yourself about your creative process, the tensions 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.239 that are there, the self doubt, the ambition, this soup 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.240 of all these different things going on, so complex and 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:43.560 like rarely do you hear somebody present it in that form. So, 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.080 first off, how did you find the process of doing that? 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.680 And then on Benbrick I'm interested in your thoughts. How 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:51.960 did you describe what you wanted to do with that 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.120 to you? Because you must have just thought, wow, that 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.760 I've never had to do anything like this before. Presumably 0:04:58.320 --> 0:04:58.600 thank you. 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.679 It's a great question. So the blessing of being able 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.680 to start the podcast in the way that we did 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:10.359 was that there were no precedents, blueprints, or expectations that 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.039 meant that I had to be self referential in what 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:17.920 I wanted to discuss. I looked inward, and at every 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:24.960 point the biggest challenge within myself seemed like the most 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.400 worthwhile thing to discuss. That's probably a bit of a 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:33.560 metaphor about life. And I knew, after dropping hints of 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.440 my internal process in episode six introducing the character of Sanyu, 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:43.160 that the big reward would be to try and explain 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:48.120 as much about that process that space as possible. So 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:53.880 we attempted it, and we spent a month on the episode, 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:59.520 released it, actually performed it live, and I wasn't sold. 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.400 I knew that the reason I wasn't sold was because 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:07.880 the truth, the essence of that idea hadn't been satisfied 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:13.680 in what we'd released. Even though Benbrick's work was flawless, impeccable. 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:19.280 My writing was hampered by everything that I described in 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:20.600 the episode. 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.800 In terms of the sound design of that episode, did 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.120 you immediately get what George wanted to do with it? 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:30.400 And I suppose a general question your teammates in terms 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.880 of making this podcast happen, the way it's delivered, the 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.760 way it sounds. Have you always been on the same wavelength? 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:38.200 Was there a period of time where you had to 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:43.080 really key into what George's vision was for it. 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:47.960 A lot of the time he'll record a whole part, 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:52.080 like maybe two or three minutes long, just audio, and 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.960 then we'll start cutting up the different characters and a 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:57.320 line in them, and he'll say, oh, by the way, 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.760 that bit's setting a swamp, or that's going to be 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.640 in hospital, or there's a car crash that's going to 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:09.120 happen there, no, not there, nudge left, no, no, right, right, 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.720 and we get we get these bits aligned, and then 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.720 I can go and embellish some of the sound designs, 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.640 and if George doesn't have an idea for music, which 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.800 she generally does, like this should be like Matilda this scene, 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:26.080 or I can go and start experimenting with that and 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.280 then it's like that. That's phase one, and then George 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:30.720 will go and right the next bit, and then we'll 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:36.080 come back and listen and tweak that first version of it, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:37.920 and then we'll have version two. We'll put down the 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.800 next bit, create version one of that, and then tweak 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.400 that and it just moves through the process. 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.040 George, you said that the first series of the podcast 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.360 was a reintroduction to what you were all about, what 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:55.080 your character was about. This one is a mission statement, 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:56.880 so you put it. Can you just unpack that a 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.080 little bit for me and how you feel the development 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:00.080 between seasons. 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:01.000 One and take So. 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:07.360 I have been many things across my career, and these 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:12.680 different things have allowed people various access points to what 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:17.920 I am. Essentially, I've done some adverts, I've done a 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:22.240 lot of recorded music. I've done random appearances in spaces 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.000 that you might not have expected, like Formula one or 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.760 the Rugby World Cup, and everywhere I go, I am me, 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:34.800 but I am giving a fraction of myself. Series one 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.240 was my opportunity to say, this is where that fraction 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.000 fits in the broader scheme of things, this is why 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.200 I communicate the way I do, and this is what 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.600 I would love to be able to talk to you 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:52.200 guys about series two. Now we have established that foundation. 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.480 Now we're talking. So what are we talking about and 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.880 why are we talking about it? That is a long story, 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.840 and I'm grateful for the form of podcasting because I 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.720 really can't see where I would be able to dive 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.800 into that story if not for this this space. 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.360 And Ben Brick your love of the format, presumably where 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.720 does that go back to? Given that you've worked in 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.520 sound and your career is sound. So before you started 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.880 working on this project, was there a blueprint for the 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:23.920 type of thing that you wanted to achieve or did 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.040 you feel from the start that you were creating new ground. 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.600 No, I don't think there's ever a blueprint. I think 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:34.800 me and George both wanted to make exceptional art from 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:37.040 you know, even when we were both making music and 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:39.840 coming into contact with each other, we would always be 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:45.440 talking about the limitations of pop music or even the 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:50.480 way we were limited by labels or publishers. So there 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.079 wasn't really any blueprint and that was the best thing. 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.280 We could just do what we wanted and you know, 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.640 create an episode, then decide that it wasn't quite right, 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:04.240 so rewrite the entire thing and the earlier question. We're 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.600 pretty much on the same page, I would say from 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.080 day one. I think it's because we both have so 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.720 much freedom, and we both trust each other's intuitions, so 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.880 we can really run with something and try and create 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:20.800 some weird, wild fantasy thing, and if it doesn't work, 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.120 we both generally also know that it doesn't work, and 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:25.079 then we try the next thing. 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:27.800 There's a bit of a myth that goes that the 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.600 best creativity often comes from some kind of tension in 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:32.679 the studio, you know, like the kind of rubbing of 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:38.200 two minds or talents together. You both seem incredibly measured 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.960 and calm. Do you ever debate the details of what 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:42.920 people are going to hear? Does it get heated ever? 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.960 Or is it always just this very calm. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:50.800 I think we both know how important getting each individual 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.400 element is. If one person says, now, that's not right 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.160 because the camera's going to be that side in that scene, 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:58.960 then you take a step back and you like, oh, yeah, 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.640 that kind of would look good with the camera there. Okay, 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.280 let's reset everything and try again. But I think the 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.120 tension or the the way doesn't come from us. It 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.240 comes from the stories that George's turner. 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:15.040 In terms of a preview for series two, then this 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:19.520 was really you telling your story through the platform of podcasting. 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.959 But equally it was very multi layered and it was 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.360 a commentary on some much much bigger issues as well. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.600 People really rightfully kind of focused on the episodes around Grenfell, 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.000 for example, that I think struck a chord with so 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.240 many listeners. So in terms of this series, what else 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.559 can people expect? In that sense, what else are the 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:38.920 things that you were keen to address. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.960 I'm going to be fleshing out some of my ideas 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.520 about the economy and the position of my community within 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.240 the economy and the opportunities that come with that. In 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:55.000 order to do that, I'm exploring some new storytelling methods, 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.720 and I'm just trying to be very clear, very literal, 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:03.000 almost a little instructive to any young creators that are 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.320 following our journey. I just want to show them the 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.720 different ways in which you can make yourself understood but 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:16.880 also transform your situation, because that really really is needed. 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.600 It's a matter of urgency for a lot of young 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:22.679 creators from my. 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:26.480 Environment that stunts a lot of people basically being able 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.720 to flourish and reach the possibilities that you know that 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:30.200 they could do. 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:36.800 I do think access to opportunity is a big decider 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.360 in your life chances. However, the opportunities that we're discussing 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.920 today are just the latest in a very long story. 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:52.439 So without historical context, without some real sociological work, heavy lifting, 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.480 it's going to be very hard. Because I'm not going 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.640 to lie. A lot of the opportunities that have brought 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.040 me to where I am were free. But it is 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.839 a matter of the headspace that my parents were in, 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.960 the serendipity of where I was, and how I felt 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.079 about myself being born in like the blackest part of 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:15.880 the country. All of these things advantaged me. But those 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.200 facts as a reason, there's not a million George the poets, right, 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.760 and that's that story. Those reasons need a little bit 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.760 of concentration, patience, and unpacking. 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.480 I'd like to take things back to the sort of 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.320 early days of your experience with writing and your love 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.840 of words, and also your love of music and rap 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:36.319 as well. 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:36.880 Well. 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.640 You're about fourteen or fifteen when you first wrote, when 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:40.439 you wet your first rap? 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.480 Right? Can you remember it? I remember bits of it? 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:45.480 Okay, what did it have a title. 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:46.000 Did it? Did it? 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:47.200 Was it formulated as a piece. 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.959 But that's cool because I don't oh, no favors, fingers 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.200 in a lot of pies and tasting different flavors can't 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.280 be sidetracking. I can't be certain, But what I was 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:01.200 doing was trying to establish who I wanted to be, 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.000 So my lyrics were never like violent. A lot of 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:10.480 people just gravitated towards gratuitous shock value lyrics because that 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.240 is the tradition that we inherited, or that's what we 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.200 thought we were seeing in the generation above us. I'm 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.240 older now, I understand that a lot. In many ways, 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.479 it's just trauma being passed on. But my early lyrics 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.200 were again a bit of a mission statement what I 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.680 wanted to how I wanted to exist in society, and 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.320 what I believed in and what I didn't believe in. Also, 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:36.520 having such responsibility over my younger siblings gave me parameters 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.400 of what I wanted to talk about and what I didn't. 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:39.920 That was a key thing, because you felt that you 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:41.960 didn't want to be seen to be talking about things 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:43.400 you wanted to say an example. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.200 Yeah, yeah, and I didn't want to lie. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.240 It was not like I was perfect, But RAP gives 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.760 you that space to just explore yourself. You're sorry, your 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.440 dark side, and your hopes and dreams. 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.400 In terms of you're developing or developed a relationship with 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.400 Center Rafaels and the community that you're from in the present. 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.600 Like I saw recently that you'd made like a promotional 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.280 video to try and explain the situation around the proposed 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.520 redevelopment of the area. Yeah, I mean, this is obviously 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.680 an understatement to say that you're still incredibly like, kind 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:15.120 of loyal and want and want to represent that area. 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:16.880 Just tell me a little bit about that and how 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:21.320 why that remains just such a constant thread throughout your 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:23.520 work and a huge part of who you are. 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.280 Well, I believe that the person I am today is 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.880 a consequence of the experiences of yesterday, and the ultimate 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:35.680 yesterday was the hood my estate, Right, So to what 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.760 extent am I really being understood If I am not 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:45.880 elaborating the conversation around my community and communities like mine, 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:49.240 I'm always on the lookout for convenient opportunities to do 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.560 that in the most constructive way possible. So when in 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.520 late twenty eighteen, I found out that my estate was 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:00.400 being considered by a brank council for redevelopment, and there 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.600 were tensions between the council and the community about the 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.239 way information was being shared. It was a perfect opportunity 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:12.480 for me to make myself as useful as possible as 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:19.240 a representative slash stakeholder within that thing, empowering my neighbors 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.680 to feel like it's just The council consists of human 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.960 beings who are capable of communication, and even though we've 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.080 had a fraught relationship as for as long as I 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:34.760 can remember, it is always worth trying to reimagine the conversation. 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.400 And thirdly, I am also on the lookout for opportunities 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:44.680 to show other rappers how to reimagine their position because 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.000 when I think about the mind, as I talk about 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:49.520 throughout the podcast, when I think about the money and 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.680 the influence generated by rap, I think there is a 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:57.040 lot to be gained in terms of the political organization. 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.960 The potential there is unprecedented. You need to know the 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:06.080 details of how these spaces and demographics operate in order 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:07.920 to make something sustainable. 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.439 I want to keep talking about music, but Benbrick, I'm 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.080 interested to bring you in to hear a little bit 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.760 about your formative experiences with music. I mean, you work 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.879 now largely in sound design, but music is key to 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:21.960 have you heard Georgie's podcast? You know we heard you 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.720 know from the very opening moments of hearing of Georgia Smith, 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.560 for example, it's a real scene setter. So can you 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.720 tell me a little bit about your relationship with music, 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.880 if you ever produced music, and how do you see 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.280 the podcast? Relationship with music? Why is that important? 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.560 I played piano from maybe four or five years old, 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:46.560 classical piano, and studied music and some recording, worked for 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.120 an artist signed to a major label, took my own studio, 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:54.320 and then started writing with artists and had a lot 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.200 of success writing with artists and sold a lot of 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.320 records around the world. I think the thing that I 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:04.679 realized was I wanted to take my time with what 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.679 I spend my time doing. I wanted to be intentional 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:12.280 about it. So when everyone else was writing one hundred 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.560 songs a day, or hundred songs a year, or three 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.480 hundred songs a year, maybe I was writing way less, 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.959 but trying to imagine a way to make those pieces 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.400 of work more useful. When I'm composing the music for it. 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.880 It's like you're not trying to say too much. We're 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.200 trying to let George speak, and you don't want to 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:36.240 add excess emotion onto the scene if he's already saying 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.840 something emotional. So that's the balance and that's what I've 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:40.600 been learning about through this process. 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.840 And George people will know that. I mean, you went 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.480 off to study at Cambridge University. After that, your music 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.879 career gathered pace. You are signed to Universal Records, you 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.320 were featured in the BBC sound Off poll, for example, 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.040 as a new artist to watch and things like that. 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.159 When did you realize that the things you wanted to 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.600 say were perhaps bigger than in the format of a 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.439 conventional three minute or four minute song or even a 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:08.480 forty five minute long album was not the right one 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.240 for you because you needed to you needed another medium 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.359 to basically express your ideas. Did you know that all along? 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.200 Or where's there a sort of penny drop moment? 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.000 Didn't know it all along? I didn't. 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.879 I got signed to Universal Music shout out to everyone 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:27.520 at Adding Records five weeks after I graduated. And in 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:32.399 that year, as I explained, I've been in operating in 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.960 a lot of directions. I was doing corporate addresses just 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:40.240 writing poems about sustainable development, and I was doing random 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.399 TV things that had never you know, all credit to 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.239 the creative agencies that I was working with. Someone might 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:48.080 have seen me at an event and thought, I think 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.320 that guy can write a poem for a whole you know, 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.439 ad campaign. People started approaching me with that, and that 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.639 was before I got signed. That's important to note. So 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.520 when I was signed and I found myself in the 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.399 machine experiencing a lot of the things that Benbrick just 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:10.920 described in terms of slightly formulaic approaches to content generation 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:15.880 content creation, I was able to understand it and work 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.040 with it to an extent, so it was quite pragmatic. 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:21.600 It's not like I had a master plan before then. 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:27.720 The plan was vaguely to raise my profile and put 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:33.280 my core concerns at the forefront of my career, of 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:37.320 my celebrity. So as long as I am getting famous, 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:40.359 the issues are getting famous. It was in the music 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:45.080 industry that I realized if a space is not created 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.960 for that function, then you have an additional job to 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.879 do in transforming the space, as well as trying to 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.719 do what you wanted to do anyway, So there's extra 0:20:55.800 --> 0:21:01.160 work in reassuring all the stakeholders, interpreting what was said 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.120 in the meeting and trying to figure out if that's 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:07.480 going to lead to budget green lights or problems down 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.520 the road, and managing egos. You know, this is real 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:15.639 and it's not frivolous work. It's just not the best 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.840 use of my time as someone just fresh out of 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.000 you know, formal education in which all primacy is given 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:23.640 to ideas. 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:24.560 It doesn't really. 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:28.280 Matter how you know, Like a lot of the values 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:32.160 of the music industry were not shared. I didn't share 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:36.600 them on entry, so all credit to them because I 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:40.639 was educated on a lot of other aspects of the game, 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:46.080 for example, the mechanics of pr generating hype, the logic 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:51.400 of building an audience through live appearances, people skills, learn 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.920 a lot about myself, learn how to communicate better, learn 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:57.159 the ways in which I might let myself down, let 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.400 the process down. But ultimately, just two years to shy 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.719 of two years into my stint with Island Records, I 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:10.199 asked to leave, and all credit to them. They completely 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.520 understood and were very accommodating. We had successes, you know, 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:19.000 you know, sample and we had a brit nomination my 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:21.639 EP that I released with them was in talks for 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:24.200 a Mercury nomination, but because it was an EPO, it 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:29.440 didn't qualify. So a year after leaving them, that's when 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:31.879 it started occurring to me because I started watching a 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.400 lot of Netflix. I tried to chill that I'd never 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.440