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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Robert here, and we're on reruns this week.

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Speaker 2: So we're deciding to rerun two episodes with you, cutting

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Speaker 2: multiple parts into a single episode, reducing some ads and

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Speaker 2: getting some ears on some topics that have unfortunately only

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Speaker 2: become more relevant as time has gone on. And this

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Speaker 2: week we're talking about one of the founders of Border

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Speaker 2: Patrol as an organization and institution, and one of the

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Speaker 2: men who was behind the start of the NRA and

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Speaker 2: its growth into what it has become today. Like with

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Speaker 2: the DHS, these episodes have only gotten more relevant as

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Speaker 2: time has gone on, and it's very important that we

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Speaker 2: get them in front of as many people as we can,

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Speaker 2: So please listen. And I don't know, enjoy seems like

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Speaker 2: the wrong word, but enjoy. Matt salieb, how are you

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Speaker 2: doing today? I'm good man. I just got married. You

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Speaker 2: did just get married? Married For former guests France Osco Fiorentini,

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Speaker 2: you know, yeah, one of our favorite guests with our

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Speaker 2: least favorite. Oh shit, Oh, I'm just being an asshole.

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Speaker 2: We love you. That's why I've brought you on to

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Speaker 2: read you a twelve thousand words script about oh a script.

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Speaker 2: Oh a script that's right, Matt, because because I do

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Speaker 2: love you and we have such a good time. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to celebrate that you you have embarked

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Speaker 2: on this new chapter of your life. Yeah, making it

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Speaker 2: very sad. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Actually this is the perfect palate cleanser to a weekend

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Speaker 3: of joy.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 3: That's right, coming on this podcast and just being just

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Speaker 3: torn to shreds emotionally.

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Speaker 2: Because there's gonna be no joy here, Matt. Yeah, how

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Speaker 2: do you feel? How do you feel? First off, I

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Speaker 2: guess have you ever heard of a motherfucker named Harlan Carter?

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Speaker 2: Harlan Carter? I don't think so. Okay, Okay, Jimmy Carter's brother,

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, not at all. That would be Billy Carter.

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Speaker 2: And Billy Carter will be on our episode behind the Hero.

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Speaker 3: Because I thought you're going to ruin you know that guy,

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Speaker 3: because he seems pretty dope.

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Speaker 2: Can you imagine back when like the biggest scandal a

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Speaker 2: president had was that like his brother made bad beer?

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Speaker 3: Right, what a time? Yeah, administration. Yeah, it was just like, hey,

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Speaker 3: his brother's too cool. Yeah, dudes, dudes were not supposed

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Speaker 3: to rock this much. That was you know, that was

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Speaker 3: the biggest kick.

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Speaker 2: This guy out of the White House and put in

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Speaker 2: a dude who's gonna do part of a genocide anyway. Matt,

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Speaker 2: how do you feel about the proliferation of firearms in

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Speaker 2: American society?

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Speaker 3: I'm proka. I think you know, the more guns the better. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: uh nothing. You know, the only thing that stops a

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Speaker 3: bad guy with a gun is a good guy with

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Speaker 3: a gun. I think we all know that, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's.

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Speaker 2: Good guys with guns stacked outside of a classroom for

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Speaker 2: seventy eight eight exactly.

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Speaker 3: Dude just kind of sitting around waiting to be like,

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Speaker 3: as I can't wait to be a hero.

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Speaker 2: I'll just give it another forty five minutes. You've got

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Speaker 2: to clock in first. Yss. So it's interesting, it's fun

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Speaker 2: that we got to the military the incompetent militarization of police,

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Speaker 2: because this is a thing one of the things that's frustrating. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: you and I may have some slightly different attitudes towards firearms,

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Speaker 2: but I'm I'm I'm frustrated with American gun culture, which

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Speaker 2: I think is primarily toxic, and also the culture of

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Speaker 2: police militarization, which is one hundred percent toxic. YEP. And

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Speaker 2: the guy we're going to talk about today, Harlan Carter

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Speaker 2: is the dude who started both of those things. He's

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Speaker 2: the guy who started militarizing the police, and he's the

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Speaker 2: guy who made the NRA. So it is Sophie's got

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Speaker 2: a picture of him. He looks like he looks like

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Speaker 2: who you would cast if you were putting king in

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Speaker 2: that villain. He looks like Kingpin. Like he literally looks

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Speaker 2: exactly like Kingpin.

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Speaker 1: He looks Oh my god, and.

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Speaker 2: Guy, I would prefer any gangster too. It's not even

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Speaker 2: body shaming. He just looks like like his his neck

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Speaker 2: is the width of his ears.

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Speaker 3: No, he's like a literal dickhead. It is the most

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Speaker 3: I've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: He is a chowed someone poured into a suit.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure.

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Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure that this is what Joe Rogan was like,

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Speaker 4: I want this and then.

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Speaker 2: Joe Joe Rogan. Someone has been cutting Joe Rogan's HGH

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Speaker 2: with lemon juice just to try to keep him from

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Speaker 2: getting too huge. But if Joe got the amount of

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Speaker 2: HGH that he intended to shoot into his testicles, this

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Speaker 2: is how he would look. Yeah, he would look like

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Speaker 2: this guy his would be even thicker.

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Speaker 3: He's exactly the way you are picturing him in your mind, listeners.

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Speaker 2: He does kind of look like because Alex Jones has

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Speaker 2: that thick neck, but he's like not that, he's smaller. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and Joe Rogan's got that that big muscle muscle guy head.

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Speaker 2: If like Joe Rogan and Alex Jones, if you like

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Speaker 2: in vitro fertilized, like cut their sperm in half and

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Speaker 2: like merged them together with the egg from like a

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Speaker 2: dead California condor, you would get Harlan Carter.

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Speaker 4: What's better is this painting of him where he literally

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Speaker 4: looks like Doctor Evil.

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Speaker 2: He does. He does look like Doctor Evil who painted him?

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Speaker 2: I don't know a lot of people. He's a very

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Speaker 2: important people.

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Speaker 1: That we would not get drinks with.

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Speaker 2: Fair. So we're going to have to start by discussing

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Speaker 2: the history of gun control in the United States. And

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Speaker 2: because this is the United States that also started with

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Speaker 2: white supremacy.

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Speaker 3: I can only yes, I like just from this is

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Speaker 3: just a guess, but I bet you gun control laws

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Speaker 3: that have been enacted were mostly racist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's those when you get these you get these

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Speaker 2: arguments online where like people will be like gun culture

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Speaker 2: is white supremacist, and it's like, yeah, an awful lot

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Speaker 2: of it is. And then folks who our pro gun

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Speaker 2: will be like, well, gun control is white supremacist, and

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Speaker 2: you're both right, because it's the United States of America.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's like if you try, it's like people talking about like, oh,

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Speaker 2: well the Democratic Party used to be like was a

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Speaker 2: white supremacist party for a very long time, and it's

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Speaker 2: like yeah, yes, yeah, both major US parties are primarily

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Speaker 2: rooted in white supremacy.

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Speaker 3: And always it's always super weird that, you know, whenever

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Speaker 3: someone is just like no, awe, and it's like what

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Speaker 3: why are you? You don't need to be so attached

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Speaker 3: to being a Democrat that you're just going to refuse

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Speaker 3: to believe that.

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Speaker 2: It's this doesn't make an argument one way or the

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Speaker 2: other about gun control, because like you could say, like

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Speaker 2: zoning laws have a lot of their rooting in white supremacy.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't mean zoning shouldn't exist, right because fundamentally, yeah,

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Speaker 2: factories maybe shouldn't be in the same place as apartment complexes.

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Speaker 2: But that also that like, yeah, anyway, whatever, we're going

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Speaker 2: to do our.

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Speaker 3: Right, well, yeah, we're doing gun control. We're doing CRT

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Speaker 3: on this podcast. This is gonna make a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're getting into a lot of stuff, but we're

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Speaker 2: gonna be talking a shitload about the border patrol. But

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Speaker 2: first let's talk a little bit about the history of

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Speaker 2: gun control in the United States. Obviously, sixteen nineteen thereabouts

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Speaker 2: is when the first African enslaved people are brought to

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Speaker 2: the United States. Well, it wasn't the United States then,

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Speaker 2: but you know what I'm saying, right, the colonies against

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Speaker 2: their will, and not that long after, in sixteen eighty,

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Speaker 2: which is pretty quick considering how slow things went back then,

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Speaker 2: the Virginia Assembly passed one of, if not the earliest

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Speaker 2: gun control laws in the colonies. Now, this law did

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Speaker 2: not restrict the ability of white people to be armed.

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Speaker 2: It might even be more accurate to say it wasn't

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Speaker 2: gun control but weapons control. But this law passed in

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Speaker 2: sixteen eighty it made it a crime for any African

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Speaker 2: American to carry a weapon or weapon like object. Now

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Speaker 2: that last term there is interesting, Matt, because you could

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Speaker 2: I mean, I like, as a man, right you're out

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Speaker 2: in the world, you think about all the different things

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Speaker 2: you could use his weapons, everything. It's just a thing

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Speaker 2: that happened.

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Speaker 3: I gature every room going, what could I use for

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Speaker 3: self defense? And or if I just felt like harming someone?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if I had to defill myself against the eighty

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Speaker 2: four year old man next to me in the post office,

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Speaker 2: how hard could I hit him with one of these

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Speaker 2: empty cardboard boxes?

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Speaker 3: Seriously, in the genes of every dude is just Mark

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Speaker 3: Wahlberg going, I would have stopped nine to eleven if

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Speaker 3: I had been on that plane. God, and you know

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Speaker 3: that's that's all of us.

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Speaker 2: It would have been so funny. It would have been

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Speaker 2: really funny if he'd, like if he'd stopped it, but

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Speaker 2: then he'd had to try to land the plane and

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Speaker 2: had accidentally crashed it into the White House, Like, oh God. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: So as you might guess, the vagueness around the term

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Speaker 2: weapon like object mean that meant that this law it

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Speaker 2: didn't just like ban black people from carrying guns. It

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Speaker 2: meant that they could be punished brutally for holding any

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Speaker 2: object if it could be used to hit somebody. This

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Speaker 2: started what wound up being like a more than a

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Speaker 2: century long tradition of elderly black people being banned from

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Speaker 2: having canes. Oh my god, because you can hit someone

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Speaker 2: with the cane, right as Gandalf showed us. You know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, yeah, they weren't being fooled by that. In

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Speaker 2: Virginia sixteen eighty, Yes, we will pardon old man for

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Speaker 2: this walking stick. I know a wizard staff when I

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Speaker 2: see one, you think, I don't know, you gonna cast

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Speaker 2: a spell? Now, this being sixty years after the forced

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Speaker 2: importation of African slaves to the continent. The sixteen eighty

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Speaker 2: law was aimed at slaves, obviously, but it applied equally.

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Speaker 2: There were some freed black people in the colony of

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Speaker 2: this period, and it applied to them as well. The

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Speaker 2: law was amended in seventeen twenty three to specify that

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Speaker 2: Africans African Americans were not allowed to use firearms for

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Speaker 2: any purpose, be it hunting or self defense. And again

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Speaker 2: seventeen twenty three, it's kind of important to be able

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Speaker 2: to use a gun, you know, just if you're living

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Speaker 2: in the Virginia frontier.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of other people with guns, and

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Speaker 3: it seems just like a time to have one.

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Speaker 2: You need food and stuff, you know, and there's bears

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Speaker 2: like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, how do you

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Speaker 2: catch your food?

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Speaker 3: Yes, if you are not allowed to use a gun.

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Speaker 2: You can trap. But I think the purpose here no

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Speaker 2: one's thinking about, like they're not They're doing whatever they

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Speaker 2: can to make these people's lives harder because like they're

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Speaker 2: terrified of the existence of free black people. Yes, and

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Speaker 2: under this law, a free black person who defended himself

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Speaker 2: from a white person using a firearm was committing a

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Speaker 2: crime technically with any weapon, any like, any tool they

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Speaker 2: were to use to defend themselves would be illegal. So

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Speaker 2: gun control in the early colonies, most of the time,

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Speaker 2: these kind of laws in Virginia were sort of the

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Speaker 2: exceptions of the rule because as a rule, like there were,

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Speaker 2: the laws were less kind of specifically banning certain things

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Speaker 2: and more just kind of generally trying to make it

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Speaker 2: possible for black people and slave to free to challenge

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Speaker 2: white supremacy in any way. So it wasn't just guns.

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Speaker 2: And in fact that because guns were like not as

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Speaker 2: good back then, those were less of a focus than

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Speaker 2: some other objects that might surprise you. Possession of dogs

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Speaker 2: by black people was heavily regulated in this period. They

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Speaker 2: couldn't have dogs, well, it was not impossible, but it

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Speaker 2: was very hard if you were a black person who

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Speaker 2: wanted to own a dog. In Maryland in the early

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Speaker 2: seventeen hundreds, for example, you were forced to get a

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Speaker 2: license from the Justice of the peace who was going

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Speaker 2: to be a white man. So it was not easy

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Speaker 2: to get a license from a justice of the peace

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Speaker 2: for this, and if you managed to get one, you

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Speaker 2: were still restricted to owning no more than one dog

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Speaker 2: at a time, Mississippi banned the ownership of dogs for

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Speaker 2: black people under any circumstances, and even allowed slave patrols

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Speaker 2: to kill dogs found in the house of a black person.

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Speaker 2: So the police tradition of shooting people's dogs is very old.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, of course I should have known. Of course, dog

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Speaker 3: control also, you know ties directly to white supremacy.

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Speaker 2: Well, and it's one of those that you have to Again,

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Speaker 2: weapons firearms are a lot less deadly back then. So

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Speaker 2: like a gun, you get one shot and it's not

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Speaker 2: easy to reload. I think there are But yeah, dog,

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Speaker 2: a dog you don't need to reload, right, A Doberman

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Speaker 2: will keep fucking going until you go. Yeah, So that's

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Speaker 2: what you know, white folks were particularly scared of. And

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Speaker 2: again it's also worth noting. Obviously, the prohibition against black

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Speaker 2: people carrying guns or their weapons make sense if you're

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Speaker 2: afraid of a slave or you know, just an uprising,

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Speaker 2: right because a group of people with guns can do

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Speaker 2: an uprising. You can't really effectively organize a bunch of

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Speaker 2: dudes and their dogs to do an uprising together. It's

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Speaker 2: hard to do.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to see it though.

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Speaker 2: It would be cool, But clearly what they're doing here

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Speaker 2: they don't want black people to be able to defend

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Speaker 2: themselves from like mob violence, right like individual and families.

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Speaker 2: They don't want them to have any kind of defense

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Speaker 2: if like somebody wants to do a murder, you know.

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Speaker 3: Jesus Christ just like inventing inventing laws that are completely useless,

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Speaker 3: the idea that somehow this is like, oh well, we can't,

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Speaker 3: we can't kill that guy. He lives in a cannel

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Speaker 3: filled with having US dogs surrounding him, like he's fucking

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Speaker 3: Ramsey Bolton, just like ready with hungry dogs to bite.

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Speaker 2: Off if I'm Yeah. So in the late seventeen hundreds, spoilers,

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Speaker 2: the American Revolution broke out. Yeah, and by seventeen eighty

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Speaker 2: seven we have us a constitution, you know, we get,

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Speaker 2: we fight them English, we beat them, and then we're like,

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Speaker 2: oh boy, this first government we tried as a giant

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Speaker 2: shit show. We should probably like give another shot at this,

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Speaker 2: and they constitution, and eventually this Constitution comes to include

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Speaker 2: a bill of rights in the now infamous Second Amendment.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be talking a lot about the changing

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Speaker 2: ways this has been interpreted through time, and despite what

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Speaker 2: people on tend to say on either side of the

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Speaker 2: modern issue, there are a couple of different ways to

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Speaker 2: interpret how the so called Founding Fathers intended it to function.

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Speaker 2: And again, as a general rule, they weren't all in

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Speaker 2: agreement about pretty much anything, but one thing is perfectly clear.

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Speaker 2: They did not see the right to bear arms as

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Speaker 2: extending to black people. Now, black people were not categorically

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Speaker 2: forbidden from owning weapons in the new United States, but

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Speaker 2: in those states where it was legal for them to

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Speaker 2: own arms, they were always required to register those weapons

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Speaker 2: with the government. This was not the case for white people.

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Speaker 2: While there was some hope during the Revolution among black

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Speaker 2: Americans that independents would bring about an improvement in their circumstances,

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Speaker 2: and that was not unreasonable. Again, the British Empire allowed

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Speaker 2: slavery too. So at this stage in time, it's not

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Speaker 2: like it's perfectly reasonable to hope that like, well, maybe

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Speaker 2: things will get better when they don't have a king anymore, right,

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Speaker 2: Obviously that doesn't happen. And when that doesn't happen, there's

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Speaker 2: some uprisings in the New United States. In eighteen eleven,

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Speaker 2: Louisiana uprising of enslaved persons failed, and in response to this,

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Speaker 2: New Orleans made it a crime for black people to

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Speaker 2: carry weapons. And this was again primarily even more than guns.

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Speaker 2: Banned them from stuff like canes, crutches, wheelchairs. Yeah, any yeah,

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Speaker 2: definitely with an assault wheelchair. Yeah. So, as we've discussed

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Speaker 2: in our Behind the Police series, many Southern police departments

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Speaker 2: started as slave patrols, made up of armed white dudes

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Speaker 2: searching for escaped slaves and using weapons to keep a

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Speaker 2: boot on the neck of even free black people. In

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Speaker 2: eighteen twenty five, Florida gave slave patrols the right to

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Speaker 2: enter any black person's home and take away firearms, ammunition,

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Speaker 2: or any other weapons found. And obviously these kinds, as

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Speaker 2: is the case with no knock raids today, these often

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Speaker 2: were basically just pretexts to kill people in their homes

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Speaker 2: right by saying you felt threatened. Yeah. Now, in the

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Speaker 2: early eighteen sixties, obviously we have US a civil war

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Speaker 2: over slavery, and broadly speaking, this goes pretty well if

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Speaker 2: you think slavery is bad, US civil war broadly speaking

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Speaker 2: goes all right. Yeah. Now, one of the most kind

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Speaker 2: of revolutionary aspects of the Civil War is that, for

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Speaker 2: the first time in US history, a shitload of black

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Speaker 2: men are legally carrying guns in an organized way. One

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy nine thousand black people serve in the

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Speaker 2: Union Army, which is roughly ten percent of its total,

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Speaker 2: and you suddenly have tens of thousands of black men

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Speaker 2: with guns marching across the US South, which really freaks

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Speaker 2: out people in the South.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's got to be the scariest thing. They looked

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Speaker 3: at that and they're like, see, this is what I'm

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Speaker 3: talking about.

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Speaker 2: This is a scary shit I did not want to happen. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is why we're losing. Started this war that we're losing.

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Speaker 2: So post Civil War, black people are not immediately entitled

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Speaker 2: to the same rights as white people. So, starting in

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Speaker 2: eighteen sixty five, which is the year the war ends,

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Speaker 2: States like former you know states that had lost basically

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Speaker 2: start enacting black codes and these are kind of okay,

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Speaker 2: these people aren't slaves anymore, but we want to treat

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Speaker 2: them that way. So let's just write new Let's just

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Speaker 2: we'll take the old laws that we had that restricted

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Speaker 2: slaves from doing things in order to keep them under control,

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Speaker 2: and will replace the word slave with servant or you know,

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Speaker 2: something similar, so that we can try to hold them

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Speaker 2: under the same laws. In Mississippi, black people were still

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Speaker 2: banned from possessing weapons or ammunition, and if white people

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Speaker 2: turned them in for this crime, they would be given

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Speaker 2: their firearms as a reward. And again this is after

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Speaker 2: they've been freed, so they like should have the right

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Speaker 2: to bear arms and whatnot. I want to quote now

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Speaker 2: from a twenty twenty one Honors thesis by Alexandra Lenzetta

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Speaker 2: from the University of Colorado. Quote. Other Southern states to

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Speaker 2: enact their own set of black codes were Alabama and Louisiana.

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Speaker 2: Both states prohibited African Americans, not including veterans, from owning

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Speaker 2: guns without a license or special permit. Not surprisingly, these

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Speaker 2: permits and licenses were controlled by white men, making it

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Speaker 2: virtually impossible for a black man or woman to legally

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Speaker 2: obtain a gun. This resulted in many blacks illegally purchasing guns,

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Speaker 2: making the potential penalties of exposure even greater. Punishment for

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Speaker 2: having an unlicensed firearm was a fine and confiscation of

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Speaker 2: the weapon. Old slave patrols re emerged to enforce the

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Speaker 2: Black Codes and to terrorize African Americans. This, along with

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Speaker 2: a combination of great incentives to catch black with weapons

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Speaker 2: and a hatred over their newfound freedom, created a white frenzy,

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Speaker 2: making it extremely difficult to height a gun as an

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Speaker 2: African American. White frenzy is the worst frenzy. It's it's

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Speaker 2: it's it's the most common frenzy.

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Speaker 3: Took Yeah, it's it's. It's their most traditional American frenzy.

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Speaker 3: But it is not is not a fun one.

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Speaker 2: We do love us a frenzy. We love a frenzy.

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Speaker 2: We love a good frenzy, we love a bad frenzy.

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Speaker 2: So eighteen sixty five, right bunch of black codes come

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Speaker 2: into effect to basically try and keep black people in

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Speaker 2: similar positions to how they've been during slavery, even though

364
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Speaker 2: the war was over. So in eighteen sixty six, the

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Speaker 2: US Congress passes the Civil Rights Act, which this is

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Speaker 2: like there's a big old fight over this, and this

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Speaker 2: is the this is the law that basically says, hey,

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Speaker 2: you actually have to these people have the same rights

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Speaker 2: that white people have on the bill front, right, Like

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Speaker 2: that's what that does, you know, And you know, things

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Speaker 2: do get a lot better for a while, you know,

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Speaker 2: we talked about.

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Speaker 3: Point was like, look, do you ever just like read

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Speaker 3: up on reconstruction and go like holy shit, for a

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Speaker 3: hot second.

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Speaker 2: There we seem to be on a good track.

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Speaker 3: We were on a good track, Like it seemed like

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Speaker 3: shit was gonna like work out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, things made a lot better for a while. And

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Speaker 2: then there's a violent reaction from the reactionaries and they

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Speaker 2: do an insurgency which is kind of centered around the KKK.

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Speaker 2: We have talked about this in other episodes. It ends

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Speaker 2: with a series of demeaning, bigoted laws aimed at maintaining

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Speaker 2: white supremacy in the former Confederacy. These are you know,

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Speaker 2: Jim Crow laws, right, And these these come into place

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Speaker 2: alongside a wave of lynchings which kill at least like

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Speaker 2: five thousand black Americans. Obviously, there's no way of knowing

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Speaker 2: the actual total good chance it was significantly more, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: at least five thousand. So in response, black people do

390
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Speaker 2: what you would expect. They form militias, you know, they

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Speaker 2: start carrying guns for what. I don't think I need

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00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 2: to explain the logic here, right, organized to stop lynchings.

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Speaker 2: This culminates in Louisiana in eighteen seventy six where a

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Speaker 2: bunch of klansmen who are also government officials, these are

395
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Speaker 2: like elected leaders in Louisiana who are also in the KKK,

396
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Speaker 2: are charged with conspiring to disarm a meeting of Black Americans. Basically,

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Speaker 2: like one of these groups of black folks had gotten

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Speaker 2: together with guns to like figure out how to protect

399
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Speaker 2: their community, and these state officials like try to take

400
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Speaker 2: their weapons away. A bunch of court shit happens. It

401
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,199
Speaker 2: goes to the Supreme Court who rules in favor of

402
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Speaker 2: the ku Klux Klan, saying that the state had the

403
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Speaker 2: legal right to disarm this meeting to protect the common

404
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 2: good God. And you know, in this period of time,

405
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Speaker 2: there's also one of the things that's happening during the

406
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Speaker 2: lynching period is sometimes lynchings get stopped because the person

407
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Speaker 2: who is attempted to be lynched has a gun and

408
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 2: they shoot the people trying to lynch them. And when

409
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 2: that happens, a number of laws are passed in different

410
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Speaker 2: towns and states to ban the carrying of concealed firearms,

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Speaker 2: and in fact, those are some of the first specific

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Speaker 2: laws against the carrying of concealed handguns. Now, this is

413
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Speaker 2: an area where like the kind of the anti gun

414
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Speaker 2: control people tend to focus entirely on this stuff. It's

415
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Speaker 2: very much worth noting all gun control in the United

416
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Speaker 2: States in this period is not based in white supremacy,

417
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Speaker 2: in part because a lot of it is put in

418
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Speaker 2: areas where like most of the population is white, and

419
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Speaker 2: there was it's worth noting significantly more gun control in

420
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Speaker 2: portions of the like the so called wild West, than

421
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 2: there are in a lot of those same states today.

422
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Speaker 2: In places like the Dakotas and whatnot, it was common

423
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Speaker 2: for the open carrying of firearms to be restricted in

424
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Speaker 2: many towns. If a visitor came into town, they would

425
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Speaker 2: be expected to leave their guns with the local police

426
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,679
Speaker 2: before entering. They'd get like a little card or something

427
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 2: you weren't supposed to like like there were it's it's

428
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Speaker 2: and there's you know, a lot to be said about

429
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Speaker 2: like why this is being done, but in general, it's

430
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 2: being done because they see that it's it's perfectly reasonable

431
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Speaker 2: to say that, like, well, there should be restrictions on

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Speaker 2: what you can do in town with a firearm, right.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, and it went down with a gun, seen,

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Speaker 3: I don't know threatening.

435
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, they certainly don't want you doing it openly. And

436
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: then like there's a bunch of there's laws about carrying

437
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 2: concealed and those kind of vary from place to place.

438
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: But it's worth noting that the infamous gunfight at the

439
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 2: OK Corral actually occurred because a guy, like it was

440
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 2: over gun control, right, Like, a guy was openly carrying

441
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 2: his guns in the city, and you know there was

442
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 2: as far as I'm aware, like everyone involved in that,

443
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure was like a white dude. So I

444
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 2: don't think there's anything particularly racist in the gunfight. You

445
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 2: could talk about it, be it involving like police overreach, sure,

446
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: which people will make the case that like this was

447
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 2: this was a case of like a fucking early cop

448
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 2: going bug fuck on some people. Yeah, yeah, but don't

449
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:41,199
Speaker 2: tread on me.

450
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 3: And yes, people, you see this whole time, I didn't

451
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 3: know that that was a real gunfight at the okay cost?

452
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh no, no, no, it's a pretty cool story,

453
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 2: as it perfectly accurately described in the documentary Tombstone starring

454
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: Val Kilmer.

455
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 3: Yah see yeah, I thought the reason was, you know,

456
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 3: like a card game got lost or something, or someone

457
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 3: had like extra aces up their sleeve.

458
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 2: But it turns out gun control. No, that would be

459
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 2: the that would be the documentary. Shit was it, Maverick?

460
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 2: What's the document about the card guy who gets like yeah, yeah, yeah,

461
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 2: I need to rewatch that. That was a good fucking

462
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: that's a good movie.

463
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 3: My other guest was going to be a giant metal

464
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 3: spider who tries to take over.

465
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: My third favorite documentary. And this is what brought about

466
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: the famous US law against the carrying of gigantic metal

467
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 2: spiders right right right, which I considered to be the

468
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: civil rights era of the day. I think, of course,

469
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: I think access to giant metal spiders should be democratized.

470
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just a legit.

471
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 3: Well, the only thing that stops a bad guy with

472
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: a giant metal spider is a good guy with a.

473
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 2: Giant would argue that you can't be a bad guy

474
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 2: with a giant metal spider agreed, because look, no matter

475
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: what it's doing, if I get to see a giant

476
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 2: metal spider trumping around town, my day's improved. Don't care

477
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 2: what that spider's.

478
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 3: Going, everyone feel safe.

479
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: Everybody feels better with a giant metal spider.

480
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 3: So this podcast is brought to you by Giant Spider

481
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 3: dot Com promo code Giant Metal Spiders Today.

482
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 4: You're actually right on time because it is that it

483
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 4: is about that time.

484
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: Wow. Well, look, everybody's talking a lot about AR fifteen's

485
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: You know what's more powerful than an AR fifteen A

486
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 2: metal spider spider the size of the Chrysler building. Uh

487
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: that is scary. Yeah, yeah, Uh we're back, so you

488
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 2: have you know again the Wild West, how common gunfights

489
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: and stuff were, especially in like cities and towns is exaggerated.

490
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 2: But also there was a lot of like there were

491
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: a lot of robberies, there were a lot of crimes

492
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: like and it's it's the same as it is today.

493
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 2: Like the gunfights that have kind of come down to

494
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: history were like the ones that the media went nuts

495
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 2: on in the day, like the gunfight at the Ok Corral.

496
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: But broadly speaking, by the end of the eighteen hundreds,

497
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: most places in the United States had banned the concealed

498
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: carrying of handguns, although open carrying remained legal in a

499
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: lot of places. We'll talk about when that ended. In

500
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: eighteen ninety three, the government of Texas said that quote

501
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 2: the mission of the concealed deadly weapon as murder to

502
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: check it as the duty of every self respecting law

503
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 2: abiding man. And again, he was probably saying that primarily

504
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 2: because he didn't want black people to have concealed guns.

505
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: This is the governor of Texas in eighteen ninety three,

506
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 2: so do keep that in mind. But US gun control

507
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: in this period was at least deeply preoccupied with the

508
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 2: specter of armed black people, and even where laws were

509
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: perfectly reasonable, they were often used specifically to enforce white supremacy,

510
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: even if that hadn't been the initial intent of the law,

511
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 2: Lanzetta writes. Quote. Another example of discrimination is found in

512
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: legal proceedings during the Jim Crow era. Involved an eleven

513
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: year old black boy with a toy gun in Saint

514
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 2: Louis in nineteen hundred. It was illegal to fire a

515
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: gun within city limits, and the boy was charged for

516
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 2: violating this law. However, when his case was being reviewed

517
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 2: by a judge to determine his guilt. It was discovered

518
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: that the gun was fake. Knowing this new information, the

519
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 2: judge should have dropped all charges, given that it is

520
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 2: not possible to fire a fake gun, but this was

521
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: not the case. Instead, the boy was found guilty and

522
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: the judge fined him ten dollars almost three hundred and

523
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: ten dollars to day, which is interesting. I did again,

524
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: another thing that goes back very far is black kids

525
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: being penalized for having toy guns, right exactly, quite quite

526
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: far back.

527
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's literally just these are like rulings.

528
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 3: It's like, well, yeah, scared me. Yeah, that's that's the

529
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: entire thing that has been the I believe the explanation

530
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 3: for the deaths of countless, countless black people.

531
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: Well, and it's also just like this, I was scared.

532
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: Perhaps we don't like, perhaps we're fundamentally frightened by the concept,

533
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: even if it's a toy, of like black people having guns,

534
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: because that's how we maintain our power over them, right right,

535
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 2: Which is again, even in these areas where concealed carrying

536
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: or open carrying is illegal, it's generally not illegal for

537
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 2: white people to do. If they're being vigilantes right. This

538
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 2: is a key aspect of this period, and this brings

539
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 2: us back to the glorious state of Texas. Like much

540
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: of the South, after the Civil Rights Act, legislators had

541
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: to at least pretend that their laws meant to disarm

542
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: black people were not motivated by racism. Brendan Rivus from

543
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: Texas Christian University Rites quote the post eighteen sixty five laws, however,

544
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: used race neutral language to accomplish a racially motivated goal.

545
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: Most of these laws attempted to disarm Black Texans, but

546
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 2: some from the eighteen seventies stopped to curb the racial

547
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: violence of the Ku Klux Klan by disarming everyone. For instance,

548
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: a part of the Texas Slave Code prohibited slaves from

549
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 2: carrying a gun without written permission from a master or overseer,

550
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: and a law passed in eighteen sixty six prohibited laborers

551
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: from carrying firearms onto a plantation without the owner's consent

552
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: and race neutral language. The eighteen sixty six law achieved

553
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: the same result as the Slave Code without specifically declaring

554
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: that African americ and should be disarmed. Their arming was conditional,

555
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: subject to the authorization of an interested white party. Similarly,

556
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: the state's first comprehensive weapons control law did not use

557
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 2: racially charged language, but left enforcement in the hands of

558
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: local officials who could apply it selectively against uppity blacks

559
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 2: or white vigilantes, depending on which political party controlled those

560
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: local offices. And you can guess which of those happens

561
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: more often. And this is the state of affairs legally

562
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 2: in the state of Texas. When Harlan Bronson Carter is

563
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: born on August tenth, nineteen thirteen, in Granbury, Texas. Now,

564
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: at the time, Granbury's primary claim to fame was that

565
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: it was the home of Davy Crockett for a little while.

566
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: And every town in Texas was Davy Crockett's home for

567
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: a little while. Not super impressive, and yeah.

568
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 3: Every town is just he stayed at a motel here

569
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: for two weeks.

570
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's fucking all our hookers. He's like a

571
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: celebrated hunter and frontier guy. And Harlan certainly like I

572
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: heard god knows how many fucking stories about Davy fucking

573
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: Crockett when I was a kid in my mandatory Texas

574
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: history class. I am going to guess, in like nineteen twenty,

575
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: young Harlan Carter is growing up and learning even more

576
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: of these stories. Yeah, and obviously he's also en meshon

577
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: the local gun culture of the time. Pretty much everywhere

578
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: is semi rural, so he's you know, he does a

579
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: lot of hunting, He does a lot of target shooting.

580
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: He becomes an excellent shot from an early age, and

581
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: he develops an intense affinity for firearms, shall we say so.

582
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: When he's young, the family moves to Laredo, and Laredo

583
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: is a border town, right, and his father they moved

584
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: to Laredo because his father is a Border Patrol agent

585
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: and in fact is one of the very first Border

586
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,479
Speaker 2: Patrol agents. So the year that they moved to Laredo

587
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 2: is nineteen twenty seven, Harlan's fourteen, and it's the same

588
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: year that a Border Patrol inspector named Clifford Perkins makes

589
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: a trip to the town and expresses in an official document,

590
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: has shocked to find that quote, Laredo was strictly a

591
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 2: Mexican town. Probably ninety percent of the people were either

592
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: Mexican or of Mexican descent. He adds with horror. The

593
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: only Anglo on the police force was the chief himself.

594
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: And this is an interesting like Lareda at this point

595
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: because it's it's so heavily Mexican. Is not a town

596
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 2: controlled by white people and the police are not a

597
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: white force. Right. You'll note that quote I read earlier

598
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: states that like kind of the laws against gun control

599
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: were usually mainly like put into force against like armed

600
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: black people, but depending on politics, could be used to

601
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: try to stop white vigilantes. Well, this is one of

602
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 2: those towns where maybe that's more likely because the police

603
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: force is not white. So the border patrol, however, is

604
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: not happy with the idea of a town where Mexican

605
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: folks are running things, right that does not thrill them.

606
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

607
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 3: Well next you know, they'll start inviting other Mexicans still

608
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: live here, and they won't stop the border. I mean,

609
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 3: I love the idea of these like people going to

610
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 3: a town right on the border of Mexico in Texas

611
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: which used to be Mexico and being like, what the

612
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 3: hell are all these Mexicans doing.

613
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, these communities that had been there for decades before

614
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: a state of Texas was a thing that anyone had

615
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 2: thought of being Like exactly, these people are going to

616
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: change the nature of Texas.

617
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, now this is not the Texas I know

618
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: that we invented about twenty years ago.

619
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: We invented when I was fifteen. Yeah, exactly. So this

620
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: inspector Guy Perkins, again as exactly as racist as you

621
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: might expect, and he decides that Laredo's immigration cops are

622
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: not going to be able to enforce US immigration restrictions,

623
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: which are again geared towards enforcing white supremacy, if the

624
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: state of affairs in Laredo remains the way that it is.

625
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: So he carries out what he describes as a quote

626
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: full scale house cleaning. Now in the Wonderful book Migra

627
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: Kelly Hernandez writes, quote, he charged local officials, the chief

628
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: patrol inspector, and border patrol officers in the Laredo station

629
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: with immigrants smuggling, and forced just under half of Laredo's

630
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: twenty eight border patrol inspectors and the chief patrol inspector

631
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 2: to quit or be fired. Perkins then transferred select border

632
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: patrolmen who had all been Texas Rangers into the Laredo

633
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: sector because all were experienced, well disciplined fighters who knew

634
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: the country well. Detailing former Texas Rangers to Laredo was

635
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: a strategy used to divorce the Border Patrol station from

636
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 2: the local Mexican American political elite. Tension quickly mounted between

637
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: the ex Rangers and the Laredo community, particularly the Laredo

638
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: Police Department, while the Border Patrol enjoyed close relations with

639
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: the local police in most borderland communities. In nineteen twenty seven,

640
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: several officers of the Laredo Border Patrol got in their

641
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: Model T automobiles and spent about half an hour circling

642
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: and shooting up the police station. Holy fuck, so he

643
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: Klean's house brings in a bunch of Texas Rangers, which

644
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: is like the most racist police force in the United

645
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: States of this period, and has them shoot up the

646
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: police station. Fucking A.

647
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 3: I mean, like, on the one hand, a cab.

648
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's like on the one hand.

649
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, I don't think it's a

650
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: I think it's just these particular cabs, you know what

651
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: I mean, they're going after specifically an armed group of

652
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: Mexican Americans.

653
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: It's also probably worth noting but that in this period,

654
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 2: if you're being a fucking being a Mexican American police

655
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: officer in Laredo in nineteen twenty seven is a bit

656
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: different from being a police officer pretty much anywhere in

657
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: the United States at this point, which is part of

658
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: why the Border Patrol is purging them, because he's like, you, guys,

659
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 2: they're not stopping im, they're not stopping immigration. They're not

660
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: like violently cracking down on people who aren't white. They're

661
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: not enforcing white supremacy. So we have to get rid

662
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: of them with guns. Yeah, and they get rid of

663
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: they do get rid of the Laredo police force with guns.

664
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 3: So only time in American history that the police have

665
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: been able to be fired.

666
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, this is the one time that happened. This

667
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: is what it took for the one time. So it's

668
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 2: safe to say that Laredo was a pretty wild place

669
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 2: when Harlan Carter was an adolescent. His father, Horace, was

670
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 2: among the first cohort of Border Patrol agents hired in

671
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty seven, and he was transferred to Laredo in

672
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty seven as part of this process. It's entirely

673
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: possible that Horace Carter was one of the guys shooting

674
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: that police station, and in this period of time, Harlan's

675
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: father would have seen his job as explicitly to use

676
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: violence to assert white supremacy in a place where most

677
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: people were not white quote from Migra. Although most local

678
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 2: stations developed their own strategies, policies, and procedures, the Laredo

679
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: station was exempt until the men and the infamously brutal

680
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: racial violence of the Texas Rangers slashed away at the

681
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: bonds between the Laredo Border Patrol and local Mexican American leadership.

682
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: The cleanup transformed the Laredo Border Patrol into a refuge

683
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 2: for white violence within Mexican dominated Laredo. So they've turned

684
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 2: the border patrol prior to this, and they're all like

685
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 2: local guys, right, so they don't really care about like

686
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: Mexican America, like Mexicans coming into America because like that's

687
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 2: how they got there, right, That's like their family everybody, like.

688
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: And again they also probably don't see the border as

689
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: this solid thing because they believe the relatives have lived

690
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 2: here for forever. It used to not be like a

691
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: thing to cross. But this is the period where the

692
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: border is really is becoming a thing in a way

693
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: it hadn't been before. And part of how they do

694
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: that is they clean house, bring in a bunch of

695
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 2: white people and have them shoot anybody who disagrees, right

696
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: like that. That's how the border becomes real in Laredo.

697
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: The American Way, and it's all borders are enforced everywhere.

698
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, in that white borders are bad. Yell yep. Yeah.

699
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 2: Although today, I mean there's a long conversation to be

700
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: had about the fact that the border patrol today is

701
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: extremely diverse. Like one of the things people on the

702
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 2: left particularly have gotten wrong about Evaldi is like the

703
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: assertion that like, well, they probably didn't go in because

704
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 2: those kids were Hispanic. And it's like, have you I've

705
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 2: seen pictures of the Uvaldi police. A lot of them

706
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: are Mexican American it's and the border patrol guy like

707
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: it's it's the whole thing. Like if you go down

708
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 2: to border communities, you'll see, Yeah, it's not that simple.

709
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 3: And yeah, it's always as like superficial and simple as

710
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 3: it seems.

711
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. So in nineteen thirty, Harlan, aged sixteen, joins the

712
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 2: National Rifle Association and again the NRA is rightfully again,

713
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 2: I'm more pro gun than most people on the left

714
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 2: tend to be, but the NRA is like, undoubtedly, for

715
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: we'll be spending hours talking about this incredibly toxic. It's

716
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: not at this point, right, right, there's nothing wrong with

717
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: the NRA at this stage really, And in fact, the

718
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: NRA has its roots on the correct side of the

719
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: Civil War. There's these two Union generals who are like,

720
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 2: because again Civil War one of the things early on

721
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: the South is doing pretty well. And part of why

722
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: they're doing pretty well is that like all the boys

723
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: who like wind up fighting in the Confederacy's military, Like,

724
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: they're country boys, right, They've grown up shooting and hunting.

725
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: They're like and using guns to enforce white supremacy. They're

726
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 2: good with firearms, whereas most of the northern boys who

727
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: get drafted are like city kids, and many of them

728
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 2: had never had any chance to use firearms, so they're

729
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: like they suck with them, right, And these two Union

730
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: generals are like, boy, our soldiers are really bad at shooting,

731
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 2: and it takes a long time to train them up.

732
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: Maybe if we should get ready for the next war

733
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: by having an organization where boys who grow up in

734
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: urban areas can like go in and learn how to shoot,

735
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: you know, Like that seems like a good thing to encourage.

736
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 2: So that's in the NRA up until the early twentieth century,

737
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: is like a sportsman's association. You're doing it for target shooting,

738
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 2: you're doing it for hunting. Now, it is worth noting that,

739
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: like from the beginning, and this was not seen as

740
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: problematic at all at the time, there's a military aspect

741
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: to it as well. It's not like a military organization,

742
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: but part of the purpose of the NRA is to

743
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: prepare people to be part of the military if necessary.

744
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: And this is also the military is a really different

745
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: thing in this period. You know, we have a big

746
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 2: standing army during the Civil War, but we hadn't before

747
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 2: and we don't quickly afterwards. Right, Like this is again,

748
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: when World War one happens, they have to like make

749
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 2: an army. When World War II happens, they have to

750
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: like make an army in a way that like it

751
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: had not hugely existed prior to this. So there's this

752
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 2: understanding that like, if there's an emergency, we're going to

753
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: need to activate all of these civilians and they need

754
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 2: to be ready to like fight and whatnot. So, Yeah,

755
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: the US Defense Department would regularly hand over old weapons

756
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: and other equipment to the NRA, which would sell them

757
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: to members quite cheaply. This used to be able to

758
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: get like World War two guns like Garrens for really

759
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: cheap from the NRA. It was a bunch of stuff

760
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: they did like that. So in February nineteen thirty one,

761
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: the Carter family's car is stolen from in front of

762
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: their house. Right now, they have no idea who does this?

763
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: The origin story of so many races go on. Oh boy, Matt,

764
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 2: so again. As far as I know, it was never

765
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: figured out who had done this. But a couple of

766
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 2: weeks after their car is stolen, on March third, nineteen

767
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: thirty one, while Horace Carter is out at work, Harlan's

768
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: mother sees three Hispanic boys quote unquote loitering out in

769
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: front of the house. Now, she says, loitering. We have

770
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 2: no idea. They may have just been like walking around

771
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 2: or what like. Even if they're loitering, it doesn't justify this.

772
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: But like racist white lady sees people who are not

773
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 2: white vaguely close to her house, and she decides that, like,

774
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 2: these boys must have been who stole my car?

775
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, The earliest recorded incident of Karen. Yeah, yeah,

776
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: So Karen Carter calls the cops.

777
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: Karen Carter, Well, you can't really call. It's nineteen thirty one.

778
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 2: Some people do have phones, I don't know if they do.

779
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: It's not easy to call. It's not as easy to

780
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: call the cops.

781
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 3: They send a pigeon or whatever. Those guys did that.

782
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: No, her son winds up taking this into his own hands.

783
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 3: Ah, yes, that's right.

784
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote from a write up in Timeline. Here.

785
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: The elder Carter was at work and likely wouldn't be

786
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: home for hours. The son picked up his shotgun and

787
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: walked out the door. It didn't take him long to

788
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: find the boys, who were between the ages of fifteen

789
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 2: and twelve, at a swimming hole nearby. He demanded they

790
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 2: come home with him. When they asked why, he wouldn't say,

791
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: fifteen year old Ramon Casiano responded, hell, no, we won't

792
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 2: go to your house, and you can't make us. Carter

793
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 2: and Casiano started swearing at each other. Casiano pulled out

794
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: a knife and asked if he wanted to fight. Carter

795
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: lifted his shotgun to Ramone's chest. According to testimony from

796
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: that time, Ramon told him not to do it and

797
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: pushed the shotgun aside. Then he took a step back

798
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: and laughed. Annoyed by Ramone's lack of fear, Carter asked

799
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 2: if he thought he wasn't going to shoot then he did.

800
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: Casiano lay dying on the ground with a two inch

801
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 2: shotgun wound in his chest. Jesus, So that sounds familiar, right,

802
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: There's shades of Rittenhouse, There's shades of Zimmerman, you know,

803
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 2: like this is again not obviously, I'm sure like if

804
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: we had been around at the time and paying attention

805
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: to the news, we'd say, oh, there's shades of like

806
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 2: this thing that happened like nineteen twenty and this thing

807
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: right which happened the most recent incidents. Yeah, you know,

808
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: this is a very familiar incident, right, and you can

809
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: imagine if this happened today, it would be a massive

810
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 2: culture wars. Well, he had a knife, what was you

811
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: kid supposed he was just defending his family, you know,

812
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: yeaha YadA YadA. So it's worth noting talking about why

813
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: Harlan felt comfortable leaving the home carrying a shotgun, which

814
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: there are some like obviously it's not entirely legal to

815
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: carry shotguns because people go out and hunt and stuff,

816
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: but this is you're not supposed to like walk out

817
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: to try and solve the robbery of your car with

818
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 2: a twelve gage shotgun, Like that's not explicitly legal. But

819
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: there's a long history of vigilante violence by white people,

820
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: and so whether or not this actually is legal is

821
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 2: gonna come down heavily on the local courts, right and

822
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: so the fact because this is happening in Laredo, if

823
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: this had happened in like Dallas, you know, the city

824
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 2: of Hate, perhaps it would never have been even an issue.

825
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: But because it's happening in Laredo, this is going to

826
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: be a problem for Harlan. Did you called Dallas the

827
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: City of hate? That's literally it's nickname. Yeah, that's the

828
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: next name of Dallas, Texas is the city we killed JFK. Yeah,

829
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: I mean good point bully shit.

830
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, the city of brotherly hate.

831
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: That's wow, I mean not anymore, but like that is

832
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: that is the nickname of Dallas, Texas. Like, oh yeah,

833
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: So because this happens in Laredo, the law is not

834
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: as on his side as you might expect if it

835
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: had happened in some other parts of Texas. Harlan Carter

836
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 2: is arrested, he has tried, and he is convicted of murder.

837
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 2: He's sentenced to three years in prison. Again, you can say,

838
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 2: like he should have been sentenced to more. I I'm

839
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,959
Speaker 2: mixed because he was a child, right, Like this is bad,

840
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: but also like I think you have to if you

841
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 2: believe children are not culpable in the way that adult.

842
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 2: But anyway, this is academic because he only serves two years.

843
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 2: His family appeals the judgment and they complain for about

844
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 2: number of things. They say the judge is related to

845
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: the prosecutor, that that self defense had not been adequately

846
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: explained to the jury, that one of the witnesses was

847
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: like a criminal himself and wasn't trustworthy. A bunch of

848
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 2: racist shit.

849
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, well the judge failed to consider that the victim

850
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 3: was no angel.

851
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: Like that's based Yeah, although they focus more on like

852
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: the the kid who watched his friend get his brother

853
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: or whatever get murdered was no angels. Yeah, it was

854
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 2: a angel, so eventually legally allowed to kill no angels.

855
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right in the Bible. That's right. That's

856
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: why anytime I see a bunch of floating eyes, I

857
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 2: just start shooting.

858
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 4: M M.

859
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a biblical angel joke. Was so. Eventually,

860
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 2: a judge with the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals agrees that, like,

861
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: the case was bad and he overturns Harlan Carter's conviction

862
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 2: on these grounds. And because quote, several of the material

863
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: witnesses for the state have been discredited having been convicted

864
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 2: of infamous crimes, it does not seem accurate that they

865
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: were convicted of infamous crimes. But you know, it's also

866
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: worth noting that, like Harlan's dad helped run law enforcement

867
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: in Laredo, it's impossible that some of the people who

868
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: had witnessed the shooting were like targeted by the police

869
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 2: to provide plausible deniability for his kid, and if not likely,

870
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: So Harlan gets led out of prison, his conviction is overturned,

871
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 2: and he proceeds with life now as a young adult.

872
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 2: As a free man, he enrolls in the University of Texas,

873
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: but he changes his name. So his original name had

874
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: been Harlan h A R L A N, and he

875
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 2: swaps out the A for an O. And he does

876
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 2: this basically under the understanding that like, well, this will

877
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: make it hard. If people go looking for Harlan Carter

878
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: is criminal record, they won't find anything.

879
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 3: Wait, so he changed it to Horrorlan or.

880
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: Harlan Harlow h R L O N as opposed to

881
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: h R L A N right, and again it's it's

882
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: a marker of like how different the time is. Like

883
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 2: this works perfectly for him for decades. Like people they

884
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: swapped today with it O no another we can do.

885
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like, well, the search engine doesn't do

886
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 3: other letters, so fuck it.

887
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: It was so easy to get away with crimes back

888
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 2: in the thirties. My god, was it easy.

889
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: Speaking of getting away with crimes, if.

890
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: You walked fast, like if you could walk pretty fast,

891
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: you could get away with a crime.

892
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 3: Oh man, those are the days.

893
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 2: Those were the days. Let's bring back.

894
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: Robert who else gets away with crimes?

895
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 2: The corporation when they hired those mercenaries to gun down

896
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: union organizers in Latin America.

897
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: That was a lob and you took it. I'm very

898
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: proud of you.

899
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, drink ah, we're back and I'm just gonna

900
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: have a nice refreshing sip of.

901
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: Oh it's a classic drink.

902
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 2: You know that joy is like locking a bunch of

903
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: nuns and HUGEN organizers in a church and lighting it

904
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 2: on fire. God, that's good stuff. Yeah, me love it.

905
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: So again, it's one of those things. If this had

906
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: kind of been the end of Harlan Carter's story, I'd say, like, well,

907
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 2: that was a fucked up thing that happened. But I

908
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 2: guess I don't believe a sixteen year old should be

909
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 2: locked in prison for their whole life. So but that's

910
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 2: not the end of the story.

911
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 3: It sucks that, Like there are cases where I'm like,

912
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 3: it would be sick if he had.

913
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: It's like with Kyle Rittenhouse. I don't think the right

914
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 2: thing was to throw him in a hole for forever.

915
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: Certainly the right thing is not to turn him into

916
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 2: a celebrity and give them millions of dollars. That's right,

917
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: maybe even worse. But like I think fundamentally you have

918
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: to believe that, like, well, if a child does something,

919
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: even if it's heinous, you have to be extra focused

920
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 2: on the possibility of rehabilitation because otherwise you don't actually

921
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 2: believe that children are less responsible than adults.

922
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 3: And anytime you like try to set up, anytime you

923
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 3: you know, try to be more punitive. It always affects

924
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 3: you know, brown people and people of color way more.

925
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 2: And obviously, yeah, like Raymond Caseano suffers even more for

926
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: you know whatever, however questionable you want to think his

927
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: call to pull a knife might have been, although I

928
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 2: again you could argue justified because the other kid had

929
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: a fucking gun. Anyway, whatever, it's like, it's it's one

930
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: of the problems with guns in America is how often

931
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 2: angry teenage boys get a hold of them. And this

932
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 2: is again quite an old story. Yeah, but regardless of

933
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 2: like what you think of should be done when kids

934
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 2: commit murder, Harland definitely committed murder. It's not self defense,

935
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: and anyone who says otherwise is probably racist. But it's

936
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 2: worth noting that even modern sources, and this is something,

937
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: this is where things get really income. Even modern sources

938
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 2: that are like very pro gun control, very anti Harlan Carter,

939
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 2: who will attack Harlan for his work with the NRA,

940
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 2: tend to tell the story of what happened with him

941
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 2: in and Raymond Cassiano in ways that sometimes subtly reinforce

942
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: Hardlan's claims of self defense. This is a very strange

943
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 2: thing I've noticed in a couple of sources. I've read

944
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,240
Speaker 2: a lot of articles about this guy, and his actions

945
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: can be framed in fascinating ways. I want to highlight,

946
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 2: particularly a passage from the book Gunfight by Adam Winkler.

947
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 2: And Gunfight, there's actually like five books titled Gunfight. I

948
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 2: think one of them is like seemed to be slightly grifty.

949
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 2: It's like a former gun industry lobbyist who like does

950
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: an anti gun book because I think maybe that's where

951
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 2: the money was. I don't know. I'm not going to

952
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 2: go in to date because I haven't read it't I

953
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:40,720
Speaker 2: haven't read it. But like there's a bunch of books

954
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: with this title. The good one, the one that you

955
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: would actually be worth reading, is Winkler's Gunfight. He's a

956
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,959
Speaker 2: he's a UCLA professor, and Gunfight is a critical history

957
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 2: of the battle over the Second Amendment in US politics

958
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 2: that has a lot of really useful context, including some

959
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 2: of what I went over about, like the early racism

960
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 2: and gun control. It's a good and again very much NRA.

961
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: But here's how Winkler describes what happened between Harlan Carter

962
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: and Ramon Casiano, which I find very peculiar. Quote, Carter

963
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 2: loved guns from childhood. He was an excellent shot and

964
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 2: would go on to win two national shooting titles and

965
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: set forty four national shooting records during his lifetimes. His

966
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: most infamous shot, however, came at the age of seventeen,

967
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 2: when in defense of his mother, he unloaded a shotgun

968
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: into the chest of a knife wielding Mexican teenager. Nope,

969
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 2: not how much weird way to describe that. That's not

970
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: what happened at all. That's such a weird way for

971
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 2: and again, Winkler is like he's a professor of law

972
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 2: at UCLA, Like he's all over the New York Times

973
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 2: writing about this kind of stuff. It's like really weird

974
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 2: that he describes it that way.

975
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 3: Maybe it was just like, oh, man, I've done all

976
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 3: this other research. I'm just not gonna I'm just gonna

977
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 3: go with the autobiography that he wrote.

978
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 4: This.

979
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: It's just it's like calling Ramon Casiano a knife wielding

980
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: Mexican teenager. It's such like an unsettling way to choose

981
00:49:59,160 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 2: to fras.

982
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 3: It was just like people forget that Cassiano was guilty.

983
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 2: Because he had a knife. Yeah, jail, you're bringing a

984
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,959
Speaker 2: knife to a gunfight. It is. Yeah, yeah, it's again,

985
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 2: the book is not at all right winger reactionary. There's

986
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 2: a lot of good stuff in there. The fact that

987
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: he describes Cassiano's murder in this way, though, makes me

988
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 2: question some stuff that like, maybe I missed in vetting

989
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 2: this thing because it's it's a really weird passage. Now,

990
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,919
Speaker 2: let's compare that to this write up by a right

991
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 2: wing dude, Dave Koppel, from an article he wrote explicitly

992
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 2: defending Harlan Carter's legacy. Now, in this article, he's critiquing

993
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 2: a fundraising letter from a gun control organization that acts

994
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 2: accurately noted quote. Fifty years ago, Carter shot and killed

995
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 2: a fifteen year old boy and was convicted of murder.

996
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 2: Arguing against this, Kopel writes, the letter admitted the fact

997
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 2: that Carter was defending his mother's ranch against a gang

998
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: of intruders led by the boy, and that the boy

999
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 2: was menacing Carter with a knife. Again, this is also

1000
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 2: not true. He was not defending his mother's ranch. They

1001
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: were swimming.

1002
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're swimming and having a good time and being

1003
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 3: accused of doing her crime.

1004
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 2: That they did, I mean, did they do the crime,

1005
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 2: even though I don't think there's ever been any evidence

1006
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 2: that they did it. Kind Of, again, this is a

1007
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: little murky, but it kind of seems like what happened

1008
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,479
Speaker 2: is their car was stolen. A couple of weeks later,

1009
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 2: she sees some Mexican kids walk past their house towards

1010
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 2: a swimming hole and six her son on them. Right,

1011
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 2: that kind of seems like what happened. That seems And

1012
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 2: it's it's weird because Winkler and Koppel could not be

1013
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: more apart ideologically, but their description of this murder is

1014
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 2: very similar in way, Like I just it's I don't

1015
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 2: want to harp too much on this, but it's like

1016
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 2: really weird to me that that happened.

1017
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you have any like inkling as to why

1018
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 3: that may be?

1019
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 2: Or is there just a most people don't dwell too

1020
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: much on it. It took me a while actually to

1021
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,399
Speaker 2: find good specific details about what happened that day, mm hmm.

1022
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 2: And I think most people take the attitude that just like,

1023
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 2: h well, he said he was defending his mom, and

1024
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 2: like that that's the I don't know. I I think

1025
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 2: in part, you know, Winkler's covering a lot of ground, right,

1026
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 2: because his book is a whole is not it's not

1027
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 2: focused on Carter. It's a whole history of like kind

1028
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 2: of the how the Second Amendment has been interpreted and

1029
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 2: ruled on and whatnot over a couple of centuries. So

1030
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 2: he does have a lot of ground to cover. It's

1031
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 2: just very and I guess that one of the things

1032
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: he did was just kind of brush over what happened there.

1033
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: It's right, Yeah, like the way I would do it, right,

1034
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 2: because it's perfectly reasonable if you're covering a broad history

1035
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 2: to not go into detail. But I would have just

1036
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 2: said something like he confronted you know, another teenager over

1037
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 2: like you know, something his mother said and like or

1038
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 2: he just confronted another teenager and shot him under suspicious

1039
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 2: even that would be better, right, Yeah.

1040
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 3: And also this is you know, you do a podcast.

1041
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 3: This guy's a UCLA professor.

1042
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's again. I don't want to like shit

1043
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: him too much because it's like, there's a lot of

1044
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 2: good stuff of the book. It's it's just that part.

1045
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 2: I don't get it. I don't get why you would

1046
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 2: sprite about it though.

1047
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 3: Anyway.

1048
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Harlan Carter commits murder, does two years in prison,

1049
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 2: goes to college, and then he decides to follow in

1050
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: his father's footsteps and join the Border Patrol. He becomes

1051
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 2: an agent in nineteen thirty six, three years after leaving prison.

1052
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 2: Carter's rise was rapid, if not meteoric, so he joins

1053
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 2: in thirty six, having been in prison two years earlier.

1054
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,240
Speaker 2: In nineteen fifty, he's running the entire Border Patrol. Wow.

1055
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 2: Now again, Border Patrol's a lot smaller back then, it's

1056
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 2: a lot newer. It's easier to become head of the

1057
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 2: Border Patrol.

1058
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 3: And also his murder was definitely something on his resume,

1059
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like.

1060
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 2: I probably unlike the secret. I don't think he put

1061
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 2: it on his paper resume, but oh sure, certainly because

1062
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 2: he's known in Laredo. Is like, I'm sure the guy's

1063
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 2: giving him his first gigs, all know about it and

1064
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 2: think it's bad, right, right, Yeah, But he also he

1065
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: does keep it a sequt it publicly, right, Like, he

1066
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 2: doesn't rag about it in public. Again, when he's hanging

1067
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 2: out with his buddies. I'm certain it comes up fucking constantly,

1068
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 2: but it's not like a part of his public persona

1069
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 2: as a you know, once you're the head of the

1070
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 2: Border Patrol, that is like a political position, you know, right.

1071
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, It's not like today, in which that would

1072
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 3: be something he would be celebrated for and talk about

1073
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 3: on you know.

1074
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he would like the shotgun that he used

1075
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 2: to kill Raymond Casiano with an auctioned off for tens

1076
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 2: of thousands of dollars, and he would have used it

1077
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 2: to buy an F three fifty with.

1078
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 3: The Daily Wive him his own column.

1079
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he'd be making documentaries with Matt Walsh.

1080
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 2: Times were a lot more chill back then. Which is

1081
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 2: it is? It is when we were talking about the

1082
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: story of this guy who does like a racist murder

1083
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: as a teenage boy, and like wow, he really was

1084
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 2: less proud of it than he would be today, right exactly.

1085
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where we're at, where we're like, oh wow,

1086
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 3: he didn't make that like his whole brand.

1087
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, wild. So the Border Patrol had shifted at this

1088
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 2: point from being geared mainly towards policing the border to

1089
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 2: being a force for policing Mexican Americans inside the United

1090
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 2: States on the pretext of them being potentially undocumented migrants.

1091
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 2: As a result their work strayed further and further from

1092
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 2: the border and increasingly into American cities, factories, farms, and

1093
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 2: anywhere expected of harboring illegals. Some Border Patrol agents had

1094
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 2: difficulty with this, right, This was not a lot of

1095
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: the folks who had signed up earlier. This was not

1096
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 2: like the thing that they had signed up for. Specifically, Harlan, though,

1097
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 2: is hugely supportive of this change, and in fact, he

1098
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 2: wanted to expand the Border Patrol's perview even further and

1099
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 2: use it to eliminate Mexicans from the country entirely. This

1100
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 2: was justified in his mind by the fact that a

1101
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 2: large number of undocumented migrants were living and working, or

1102
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 2: this was justified publicly, right. So, Harlan, there's like a

1103
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: racial motivation, but you can't use that, as we talked

1104
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 2: about earlier, right, like you have to hide when you're

1105
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,479
Speaker 2: long racially motivated. So the justification is that a large

1106
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 2: number of undocumented migrants are living and working on ranches

1107
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 2: and other businesses in the border lands, often under nightmarish

1108
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,800
Speaker 2: slave like conditions. Now, this is a real problem that's happened,

1109
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 2: right like as it is today, right, And yeah, there's

1110
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: this like suggestion of a new a thing called the

1111
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,720
Speaker 2: Pressro program that will provide kind of like a legal

1112
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 2: way for these people to like work, but they'll have,

1113
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 2: you know, there will be more control over the conditions

1114
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 2: that they can work in, which obviously the people who

1115
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 2: would be hiring them don't like It's it's a whole thing.

1116
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,959
Speaker 3: Uh, just so fucked fucked every which way.

1117
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 2: For from the perspective of Harlan Carter, though, this is

1118
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 2: primarily a humanitarian pretext for carrying out like a purging

1119
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 2: of Mexican Americans and from like the border lands, and

1120
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote from Migra again. Carter had convened

1121
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: a meeting to request the assistance of the US military

1122
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 2: and the National Guard to purge the nation of undocumented

1123
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 2: Mexican nationals and seal the US man Xico border. The

1124
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 2: Border Patrols proposal was titled Operation Cloudburst and consisted of

1125
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 2: three basic steps. First, an anti infiltration operation on or

1126
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 2: near the border would seal the border with the assistance

1127
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: of twenty one hundred and eighty military troops. In addition

1128
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: to stationing troops along the borderline, the Border Patrol planned

1129
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 2: to build fences along the areas of heaviest illegal traffic.

1130
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 2: Two metal picket barbed wire fences eight feet high and

1131
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: eight feet apart, with rolls of concertina wire in between,

1132
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 2: and one roll of concertina wire on top of the

1133
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 2: fence nearest Mexico built several miles along the border would

1134
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,479
Speaker 2: form the fence, but previous experience had taught the Border

1135
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 2: patrol that fenced areas still needed additional security. Therefore, the

1136
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 2: concertina fence would be reinforced by officers in jeeps who

1137
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 2: will be directed to the scene of any attempted fence

1138
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 2: or canal crossing by observers in radio equipped towers. So

1139
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 2: this is the first modern this is the wall, right,

1140
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 2: This is the start of This is the beginning of that.

1141
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 2: Not that there hadn't been like fences and stuff in

1142
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 2: different areas before, then, this is the first time someone's like,

1143
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 2: we need to build a wall, and like a concerted

1144
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 2: vision of that and specifically a vision of using the

1145
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: of the wall as a system of violence in order

1146
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 2: to keep the borderlands white. Right, That's that's what he's

1147
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 2: doing here. And he invins that ship.

1148
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 3: You know, wow, Wow, he's like the Thomas Edison of

1149
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 3: making racist borders.

1150
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 2: That's right, yeah. Wow. Yeah, he's the He's the Elon

1151
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 2: Musk of border racism. Sure. Yes, So to continue that quote,

1152
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 2: race X, I wanted to do it. I wanted to

1153
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 2: do it. Yeah, sorry, good good, good work. Yeah, so

1154
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to continue that quote. Second, a containment operation

1155
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 2: would maintain roadblocks on all major roads leading from the

1156
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 2: Southwest to the interior of the United States. These roadblocks

1157
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 2: would be used to inspect traffic, including railroad traffic, for

1158
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: the purpose of detecting illegal entrants, and to maintain safety

1159
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: patrols around the checkpoints. The roadblocks were planned for strategic

1160
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 2: locations that would prevent a leans from fleeing to the

1161
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 2: interior of the nation when the mopping up operations, the

1162
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: third phase began. The mopping up operations would be conducted

1163
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 2: in northern areas such as San Francisco, where the task

1164
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 2: forces would raid designated locations such as migrant camps or

1165
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 2: places of business. So San Francisco, I don't know if

1166
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 2: you've ever been, Matt, Yeah, not super close to the border.

1167
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, well I guess close to

1168
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 2: like a sea border, right, No, no, we're building towards

1169
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 2: but yeah, exactly, I mean those are the other aliens

1170
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 2: that they also want to put a fence around, and

1171
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 2: I'll watch out for all those turtles and fucking you know,

1172
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 2: don't worry, we'll get rid of those in a couple

1173
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 2: of decades.

1174
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 3: Right exactly, Just put a few more of those soda

1175
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 3: you know, fucking soda rings in the water. But yeah, no,

1176
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 3: not close to the border. I lived in San Francisco,

1177
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 3: and I'll tell you it was a trek to get

1178
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 3: to north exactly.

1179
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 2: So the primary downside to his plan, right, this is

1180
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 2: a pretty good idea if you're a white supremacist, right

1181
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 2: solid plan. The only only problem with it is that

1182
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: it is wildly unconstitutional. So there's this thing, right, this

1183
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 2: law that that kind of gets in the way of this.

1184
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 2: So right, at this point in time, nowadays, the Border Patrol,

1185
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 2: like you see those guys fucking walking around and they

1186
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 2: look like soldiers, right, They've got their plate carriers and

1187
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:22,919
Speaker 2: their their ar fifteens and all their fucking cool tactical gear.

1188
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 2: At this point, the Border Patrol is like slightly better

1189
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 2: armed than a modern boy scout troop, you know, Like

1190
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 2: they're not they're not They're not packing that much heat

1191
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 2: compared to what they're going to be packing.

1192
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 3: And they have a lot of merit badges.

1193
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 2: They have a lot of merit badges in racism, but

1194
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 2: there's not a ton of them, right, so they're not

1195
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 2: They can't do this without the US military, and in fact,

1196
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 2: the military is going to wind up being a significant

1197
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 2: portion of the effort if they try to do this.

1198
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 2: But here's the problem. There's this stupid, fucking bullshit ass

1199
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy eight law called posse coomatatas right, and that

1200
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 2: means you can't use the military to enforce domestic laws

1201
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 2: without congress is approval. Oh damn yeah, I know, I know,

1202
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 2: we all hate posse Coomatatas. Yeah, I for one think

1203
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 2: the military should enforce all of the laws, yes, particularly

1204
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 2: j walking exactly.

1205
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 3: They're the best at it. You don't want to you

1206
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 3: don't want a bunch of you know, boy scout border

1207
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 3: patrols getting a merit badge for walking Mexican old lady

1208
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 3: across the board.

1209
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 2: Should have that roans making sure watching for people to

1210
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 2: cross the street illegally, and we should have MLRS rocket

1211
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 2: systems to just barred the area if they cross the street,

1212
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 2: not at a crosswalk.

1213
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 3: Exactly, dude, we want more robocops and we want them absolutely.

1214
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, reinstate the draft and use it to stop

1215
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 2: jaywalking and littering.

1216
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, someone you know, absolutely, someone like cuts you off,

1217
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 3: someone speeding Agent Orange immediately.

1218
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely. So this this fucking law posse commatatus, really

1219
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 2: really grinds Harlan's gears. So obviously I should also note

1220
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 2: here that like the fact that it's the military's not

1221
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 2: supposed to be used to enforce the law doesn't mean

1222
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 2: it isn't right if he casually googled the Watts riots.

1223
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 2: You know, the government has a way of finding out

1224
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 2: figure making it being able to use soldiers to do

1225
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 2: cop shit when it needs to. But in this case,

1226
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 2: the government wasn't willing to like push things that far right.

1227
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: And the general who's like, job it is to like

1228
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 2: basically the general who's liaising with Carter is this guy

1229
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 2: named Swing who really wants to do this, like he's

1230
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 2: a racist too, but he's like, hey, we can't make

1231
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 2: this work legally right now, but we could do it

1232
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 2: if the President issued a proclamation like it's not impossible

1233
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 2: to do, but like it's you'd have to get Eisenhower

1234
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 2: on board. So Harlan Carter gets in touch with Eisenhower's

1235
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:51,919
Speaker 2: people and he tries desperately to get approval, but Eisenhower

1236
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 2: isn't quite willing to deploy troops. Now. He again not

1237
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 2: to give Ike any credit. He agrees with Harlan's basic goals.

1238
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 2: He just this, like using the army in this way

1239
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 2: is a little too far for him. But again he's

1240
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 2: not against this. So in May of nineteen fifty four,

1241
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 2: Eisenhower appoints General Joseph Swing to be Commissioner of the

1242
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 2: Immigration and Naturalization Service. Rights we don't have IS anymore

1243
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 2: now we've got whatever, But these guys are in So

1244
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 2: he's basically now he's Carter's boss. Essentially. This like general

1245
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 2: and Swing had a long history of commanding troops in

1246
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 2: battle from Mexico to Korea. Obviously you could see the

1247
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 2: fact that now a general is in charge of IS

1248
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 2: is like the start of the militarization of the border patrol.

1249
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 2: And Swing is a bastard in his own own right.

1250
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 2: But this is really happening in part because of like

1251
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 2: what Carter is pushing to turn the border patrol into right,

1252
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 2: this is this is not just the start of the

1253
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 2: militarization of the Border Patrol. The Border Patrol is going

1254
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 2: to become the first large police agency to militarize.

1255
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 3: Right.

1256
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 2: This happens decades before. You know, we talked about the

1257
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,439
Speaker 2: Watts riots, which happened like a decade or so from now,

1258
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 2: and then the La Right which were a big you know,

1259
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 2: decades later, which were a big pusher. This happens way

1260
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 2: before all of it. This is nineteen fifty four. So

1261
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 2: this is like, in a lot of ways, the beginning

1262
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 2: of police militarization happens because Harlan Carter and General Joseph

1263
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 2: Swing want to cleanse the border lands of Mexican Americans.

1264
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 2: Quote as promised. One month after joining i INS, Swing

1265
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 2: announced that he would lead the US Border Patrol in

1266
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 2: an intensive, innovative, and paramilitary law enforcement campaign designed to

1267
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 2: end the problem of illegal Mexican immigration along the US

1268
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 2: Mexico border. No one questioned how in four short weeks

1269
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 2: he had prepared the officers of the Border Patrol for

1270
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 2: such a massive campaign.

1271
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 3: I mean, at this point, too, what was even the

1272
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 3: the like.

1273
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 2: What were the migration numbers like? Was it even that?

1274
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 3: I mean, certainly it's not as much as it was now,

1275
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 3: But I'm thinking about like what nineteen fifties, nineteen fifties

1276
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 3: Mexico was, what they had, you know, social.

1277
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 2: The civil wars not that long ended.

1278
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, the PRIs and power. It's yeah, isn't it fairly

1279
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 3: stable at this point? I feel like yeah. So it's

1280
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 3: like it's like what they were doing this pretense of like, oh,

1281
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 3: we got to stop the illegals. I mean, we're not

1282
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 3: even talking about like you know, uh, we're not talking

1283
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 3: about modern uh Latin American immigration that we have today,

1284
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 3: which is used as a pretext for all sorts of

1285
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 3: racist laws against Latin Americans here.

1286
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 2: Legally we're talking about there's a lot like, yeah, labor

1287
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 2: stuff that's taught, and again they have to like do

1288
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 2: moral panic and stuff about the treatment of migrants. But like,

1289
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 2: this is all very messy because like some of the

1290
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 2: biggest people opposing the government doing this crackdown are these

1291
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 2: different ranchers and other employers who are like wanting emploit,

1292
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 2: to exploit people's Like, it's not there's a lot that's

1293
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 2: that's going on overall in this issue. But when it

1294
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 2: comes to Harlan Carter, it's pretty simple, right, He's he's

1295
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 2: a racist. You know.

1296
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's trying to do a racial purge under the

1297
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 3: pretext of like, oh man, you know they're not paying

1298
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,240
Speaker 3: fair wages. Like he gives this ship.

1299
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 2: And it's you know, he's he's also like starting the

1300
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 2: process of justifying, figuring out ways to justify uh this,

1301
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 2: that and that are like palatable to large chunks of Americans.

1302
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 2: And yeah that's uh, that's what's happening in this period

1303
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 2: of time. And you know what else is happening right now? Man,

1304
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 2: what I'm gonna ask you for your pluggables?

1305
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 3: Oh hell yeah, so my pluggables are. I just finished

1306
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 3: the entire series The Sopranos. Pot Yourself a Gun is

1307
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:52,160
Speaker 3: a podcast that I do with Vince Vancini, and we

1308
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 3: just did our very last episode. We watched all of it.

1309
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 3: We watched all the Sopranos. Uh, and uh, you can

1310
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 3: listen to the series finance wherever you get your podcasts,

1311
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 3: So check that out and also follow me on Instagram

1312
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 3: because uh, you know, I feel like that's where all

1313
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 3: the like cool kids hang out.

1314
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, hit me up, hit me.

1315
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 3: Up there, and also be be excited because me and

1316
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 3: Vince our next show we're going to be talking about

1317
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:22,959
Speaker 3: the Wire. That's right, twenty years after the wires come out,

1318
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 3: finally two white men will break down the wire because.

1319
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 2: Finally someone's got to do it. I mean, that is

1320
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 2: the right group to break down the wire. Season two.

1321
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, for sure, you got to make sure

1322
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 2: at least one of you is a poll.

1323
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we're gonna get some We got some holes

1324
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 3: who are going to come on. We got a bunch

1325
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 3: of Greek Baltimore friends who are gonna come on. It's

1326
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 3: gonna be great. But uh yeah, look look look for that.

1327
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 1: What do you call it?

1328
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 3: Probably when you pod through the Garden? Uh you know, which,

1329
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 3: you know kind of continues our tradition of having a

1330
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 3: really bad title for a TV rewatch podcast. Yeah, so

1331
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 3: check it out whenever that comes out. But for now,

1332
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 3: listen to pod yourself a gun. You can go back

1333
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 3: listen to the whole thing telling to.

1334
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 1: Know who your favorite character on the Wire was.

1335
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:18,600
Speaker 3: I mean I relate the most to Bubbles because I

1336
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:25,400
Speaker 3: used to love Heroin. But other than that, Ship probably

1337
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 3: Clay Davis. Clay Davis is cool. He's he's the state senator.

1338
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, who says ye?

1339
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 3: Who says?

1340
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 2: Ship?

1341
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 3: A lot. She she You know, for a show that

1342
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 3: is like lift Lifted up as one of the greatest

1343
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 3: TV shows of all time, there sure certainly are a

1344
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 3: lot of catchphrases. It's a weirdly catchphrase heavy show for

1345
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 3: something that is it is incredibly serious.

1346
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 2: What then, did I do? You got? You know?

1347
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 3: You got a proposition? Joe Is I got a proposition

1348
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 3: for It's like, this is a serious show, but they

1349
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 3: love catchphrases. Anyways, I'm excited. Sounds awesome me too.

1350
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 1: Boom, I guess.

1351
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wire. The podcast created the hit TV

1352
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 2: show The Wire Before first our idea was stolen by

1353
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 2: that hack David Simon.

1354
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 3: We went to HBO in nineteen ninety eight and you said,

1355
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 3: have you ever considered making a show about wires?

1356
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we said, you know who understands Baltimore Me

1357
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:35,440
Speaker 2: and Matt Leed. That's right exactly, That's right, baby.

1358
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 3: We understand Baltimore more than anyone understands Baltimore.

1359
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 2: I stopped there once for gasoline on a road trip,

1360
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,439
Speaker 2: so yeah, I get it, I get it. I was

1361
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 2: I played for the Baltimore Orioles. That's a lot of

1362
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 2: people are talking about that right now.

1363
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:54,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and you know, yeah, I feel I feel

1364
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 3: like I mean, it was in Los Angeles, that's right,

1365
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 3: and I was in fifth grade, but I was an

1366
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 3: oriole so.

1367
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 2: And you know, we famously Season two was based on

1368
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 2: the fact that I once bought a sandwich from a

1369
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:08,599
Speaker 2: Polish man. That's right, That's right. I said, what if

1370
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:10,600
Speaker 2: this was a whole show, But if this was a

1371
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:12,480
Speaker 2: whole season about longshoreman?

1372
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, just like longshoreman, like Steve Doors and like,

1373
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:17,360
Speaker 3: you know.

1374
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 2: That's a word that doesn't get used enough. I love

1375
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 2: the word Steve Adore. It is ancredible job title.

1376
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,240
Speaker 3: It's the coolest job title. I don't know, like what

1377
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 3: about moving like it.

1378
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,559
Speaker 2: Makes no sense to me based on what the job is.

1379
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 3: Why I imagine there was just like the first guy

1380
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 3: to ever do that was named Steve.

1381
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:37,680
Speaker 2: Steve, and he was just so good at it that

1382
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:42,519
Speaker 2: they were like everybody's we're all Steve Now, yeah, Steve Adoors,

1383
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:47,559
Speaker 2: You're like, is it moving cratesving? Shipping crates? Like Steve did?

1384
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,639
Speaker 2: Oh man, I want that job. This was a meandering

1385
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 2: way of introducing the podcast Behind the Bastards. Matt Leeb

1386
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,360
Speaker 2: guest also host of a podcast.

1387
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 3: Yeah Yeah, Pod Yourself a Gun, which is a Sopranos podcast,

1388
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 3: and then soon to be a Wire podcast coming out

1389
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:07,799
Speaker 3: shortly so, which is why cited for that.

1390
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 2: We were talking about the Wire.

1391
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:11,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good show.

1392
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 2: Also, soon to be the host of a baby.

1393
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 3: I know, I'm having a baby dude.

1394
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 2: Will subsequently launch a podcast called the Goo Goo Gay.

1395
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:25,200
Speaker 3: I can't wait to do a Barney Rewatch podcast. Yeah,

1396
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 3: with my little baby. It's like analyzing, like, you know,

1397
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 3: the role of American imperialism in The Happy Purple Dinosaur.

1398
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:35,839
Speaker 2: Well, you know, there was that whole season of Barney

1399
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 2: that took place in a contra camp in Nicaragua. Yeah,

1400
01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:40,720
Speaker 2: that was great. Yeah, you have to give it to them.

1401
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:44,440
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, Barney was like teaching, you know, classes

1402
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 3: over at the School for the Americas.

1403
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that he worked

1404
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 2: hand in glove with Oliver North ex sell those missiles

1405
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:54,879
Speaker 2: to Iran exactly because the only person the Shaw trusted

1406
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:59,800
Speaker 2: or the shot totally trusted exactly Dinosaur. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

1407
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:02,800
Speaker 2: he did sell a lot of craft, but that was

1408
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 2: that was completely unrelated. We should probably talk about where,

1409
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:09,120
Speaker 2: you know, when we last left off, We were about to.

1410
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 2: We were talking about Operation Cloudburst, this attempt by Harlan

1411
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 2: Carter and the Border Patrol in the Sky General Swing

1412
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 2: to cleanse the border area. We should probably gi a

1413
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 2: little bit more background about what's happening short order in

1414
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 2: this period. So this is kind of again I think

1415
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:26,320
Speaker 2: Harlan's primary motivation is racial, but there's other stuff happening.

1416
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:29,720
Speaker 2: So in the early nineteen forties, the US government had

1417
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:32,479
Speaker 2: created this thing called the Brasero program, which is like

1418
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 2: a guest worker visa program that would let Mexican farm

1419
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 2: workers enter the country legally temporarily to work for American farmers.

1420
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 2: This get started during World War Two because like, we

1421
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 2: don't have any we don't have any dudes left in

1422
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 2: the country, right, we send them all over there, you know,

1423
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:49,320
Speaker 2: like we need some more dudes.

1424
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:52,200
Speaker 3: The shortage of dudes at this point.

1425
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 2: But it also one of the reasons why it's popular

1426
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 2: even with people who like are pretty racist, is that

1427
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,400
Speaker 2: it it by providing kind of a legal, regulated way

1428
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 2: for them to work here, it also provides a legally

1429
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 2: regulated way to get them out of here. They can't

1430
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 2: become residents, right. The Bressio program does not these people

1431
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 2: are supposed to leave, but in fact, part of the

1432
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:14,719
Speaker 2: deal is that like ten percent of the migrants wages

1433
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 2: are taken out of their paychecks and deposited to an

1434
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 2: account that are given to them when they come back

1435
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:21,679
Speaker 2: to Mexico. Right. So that's part of why this is popular,

1436
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 2: is that it allows them to do the work that

1437
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 2: the country can't function without, but it also ensures that

1438
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 2: they don't stay right. That's why this's just such a

1439
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 2: big deal for a lot of folks. So it's actually

1440
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 2: very popular. And one of the things about it is

1441
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 2: it doesn't limit the number of workers, because why would

1442
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 2: you write because they're not anyway. Millions and millions of

1443
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 2: Mexican workers use the Bresso program over the years, and

1444
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 2: from the perspective of the US government, it works pretty

1445
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:56,080
Speaker 2: well for a while, and it certainly keeps workers in farms,

1446
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 2: and so by like the early nineteen fifties, there's like

1447
01:14:00,439 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 2: two million of these workers, or there's like five million

1448
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 2: people have worked in through the Bressero program. But also

1449
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:12,000
Speaker 2: like unauthorized migrants continue to cross into the border, and

1450
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:14,280
Speaker 2: by the early nineteen fifties, there's like two million of

1451
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 2: these people, and part of one of the things like

1452
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:21,120
Speaker 2: that happens in this period is that there's suddenly like

1453
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:23,600
Speaker 2: a big surge of folks coming and unauthorized in the

1454
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:27,440
Speaker 2: early nineteen fifties. And this is part of what inspires

1455
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 2: Operation Cloudburst, is that like border patrol has never had

1456
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 2: to deal with like these kind of numbers of people

1457
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:37,640
Speaker 2: crossing post war, and they're not really capable of handling it.

1458
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 2: So by the early nineteen fifties, the number of like

1459
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 2: voluntary departures had raised in nineteen forty six, like one

1460
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 2: hundred and one thousand undocumented migrants voluntarily leave the United

1461
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 2: States in nineteen fifty two, more than seven hundred thousand do.

1462
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 2: And you can, like these numbers are just kind of

1463
01:14:56,439 --> 01:14:59,639
Speaker 2: useful in seeing like how many folks are coming in sure,

1464
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 2: so this a lot of people are not wild about

1465
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:13,080
Speaker 2: this because again, you know, racism and such. Yeah, So

1466
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 2: Joseph Swing part of his motivation here is that, like

1467
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 2: he wants to get the employers of unlawful migrant workers

1468
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:24,760
Speaker 2: to cooperate so that they can like increase the number

1469
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 2: of folks who are working there under the Brasero program

1470
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 2: and shrink the unauthorized workers. And so his justification for

1471
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:34,280
Speaker 2: like participating in some of the stuff that that Harlan

1472
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:37,320
Speaker 2: Carter is building is that he wants to cut down

1473
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,400
Speaker 2: the supply of unauthorized workers in order to get more

1474
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 2: of these employers on board with the Brassero program. So again,

1475
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:47,920
Speaker 2: a lot of there are a lot of like kind

1476
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 2: of wonky aspects to what's happening with migration here that

1477
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 2: you can as always justify as like not based in racism,

1478
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:57,000
Speaker 2: is based in like, well, there's a lot of these

1479
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 2: undocumented people coming over and it's like, great, the problem

1480
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 2: for the border control and the conditions they're working under

1481
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:04,320
Speaker 2: are like really bad, and we want to reform this

1482
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 2: program so that you know, everyone is documented and legal

1483
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:10,360
Speaker 2: and like we're not trying to stop them from coming over.

1484
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 2: But also one of the things you're trying to do

1485
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 2: by expanding this program is making sure that they don't

1486
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,400
Speaker 2: stay right. Yeah, And I guess again, you can look

1487
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 2: at what's happening with the Bracero program in a couple

1488
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:23,599
Speaker 2: of different ways. But if you really want to know

1489
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 2: what's going on with the immigration sweeps that Carter and

1490
01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 2: Swing eventually in act, the main thing you need to

1491
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 2: know is what they call it, and this is Harlan

1492
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 2: Carter's name for this is Operation wet Back. That is

1493
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:43,040
Speaker 2: the official name of this immigration purge that they're going

1494
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 2: to do. And again, did they invent the term or

1495
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,280
Speaker 2: was no? It existed for a while? Okay, so they

1496
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 2: did just explicitly name it after a slur, yes, yes, okay, yeah,

1497
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 2: that's exactly it. And obviously, like again for folks who

1498
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,000
Speaker 2: maybe are not aware of this, I know we have

1499
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 2: a lot of like European lists, Canadian listeners who may

1500
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 2: not have heard this, Like weep back is a racial

1501
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:07,679
Speaker 2: slur for Mexican immigrants to the United States. It takes

1502
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 2: its name from when people would cross illegally. They would

1503
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 2: do so through the Rio Grande often and like so

1504
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 2: you you know, you get wet when you do that, right,

1505
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:19,519
Speaker 2: and so like that's the that's the origin of the slur, right.

1506
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:22,639
Speaker 3: The part I don't I don't know why they specify.

1507
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 2: I don't know why they specify, but this happens. There's

1508
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 2: like a history of this. Like an old anti Italian

1509
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:29,960
Speaker 2: racial slur is WOP, which means without papers. I don't

1510
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:32,600
Speaker 2: think it was entirely just for Italians, but like, you know,

1511
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:35,920
Speaker 2: this is like the late eighteen hundreds, I think, right, yeah,

1512
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 2: so yeah, and Carter again, so Swing Swing is the

1513
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:43,559
Speaker 2: kind of guy who can sit down and explain to you, like, well,

1514
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 2: this is where the presserra program is broken down, and

1515
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 2: like these are the problems that we're having, and these

1516
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 2: are the different violations that we're seeing, and like we

1517
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:52,120
Speaker 2: need to get these, you know, employers on board with

1518
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 2: this program to reform the system, and the only way

1519
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 2: to do that is to cut down on the like

1520
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,200
Speaker 2: so he can get very wonky with it in a

1521
01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 2: way that doesn't sound racist, whereas Harlans like, yeah, operation

1522
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 2: wet Back, Let's get out of here. And Carter is

1523
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 2: not great. It's like he says, he just kind of

1524
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 2: says the loud part loud. In interviews with the press,

1525
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:13,799
Speaker 2: he describes it as the biggest drive against illegal aliens

1526
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:16,280
Speaker 2: in history. He tells the Los Angeles Times that he

1527
01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 2: intends to deploy quote an army of border patrol officers

1528
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 2: complete with jeeps, trucks and seven aircraft in order to

1529
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 2: declare quote all out war to hurl Mexican wetbacks into Mexico.

1530
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.

1531
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:31,480
Speaker 3: So he's not added a subtle man, he added yeehaw

1532
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:33,120
Speaker 3: after every sentence.

1533
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to imagine he's shooting his six guns

1534
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:38,799
Speaker 2: into the air as he gives these speeches to the press.

1535
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 3: He's in the middle of burning across as has he

1536
01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 3: lit a cross on fire on someone's lawn.

1537
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 2: Statement to the La Times. So what followed was close

1538
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 2: to again, Operation Wetback is kind of he tried. It's

1539
01:18:57,080 --> 01:18:58,479
Speaker 2: a lot of what he had tried to do with

1540
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 2: Operation Cloudburst, only just toned down a little bit so

1541
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:04,719
Speaker 2: that they could get the federal government on board. Obviously,

1542
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:07,679
Speaker 2: this is follows like a massive hiring campaign of border

1543
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:10,600
Speaker 2: patrolmen and they take thousands of border patrol agents and

1544
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 2: they separate them into mobile task groups and they set

1545
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:16,599
Speaker 2: up mobile immigration systems to block roads. So they basically

1546
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:19,760
Speaker 2: doing like this. They've already put this, like started putting

1547
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,760
Speaker 2: these fences up, but they do like kind of a

1548
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:24,639
Speaker 2: you could call it a kind of like racist defense,

1549
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:27,640
Speaker 2: like defensive white supremacy in depth, where they're setting up

1550
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 2: blockades deeper into the country and they're also carrying out

1551
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 2: raids on factories and restaurants and just through whatever mean

1552
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:38,559
Speaker 2: they can, arresting and containing huge numbers of Mexican migrants

1553
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:41,240
Speaker 2: and I'm going to quot from Migre again. To hold

1554
01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:44,120
Speaker 2: the detainees, the officers turned to public spaces into temporary

1555
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:47,240
Speaker 2: detention facilities. For example, in Los Angeles, the Border Patrol

1556
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 2: transformed Alesian Park, a popular public park, into a temporary

1557
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:54,440
Speaker 2: holding station where apprehended Mexican nationals were processed for deportation.

1558
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:57,679
Speaker 2: And countless fields and along many country roads, border Patrol

1559
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:00,479
Speaker 2: officers set up mobile immigration stations to process us UNS

1560
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 2: sanctioned Mexican immigrants for official deportation. They used trucks on

1561
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 2: loan from the Armed Services to transport the apprehended immigrants

1562
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:10,559
Speaker 2: from California to No Gals, Arizona for deportation to Mexico.

1563
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:14,400
Speaker 2: To showcase the large numbers of migrants being processed for

1564
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:18,400
Speaker 2: forced removal into Mexico, officers were directed to raise Mexicano communities,

1565
01:20:18,479 --> 01:20:21,880
Speaker 2: leisure spots and migrant camps, ranches, farms, and parks. They

1566
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:24,599
Speaker 2: also paid close attention to urban industries known to employ

1567
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:28,400
Speaker 2: undocumented Mexican immigrants. Between June seventeenth and June twenty sixth,

1568
01:20:28,479 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty four, twenty eight hundred and twenty seven of

1569
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:33,680
Speaker 2: the four thousand four hundred and three migrants apprehended by

1570
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:36,759
Speaker 2: the task force assigned to Los Angeles had worked in industry.

1571
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:39,599
Speaker 2: After border patrol raids during the summer of nineteen fifty four,

1572
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:42,519
Speaker 2: three Los Angeles brickyards were left without sufficient numbers of

1573
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:46,519
Speaker 2: workers and temporarily closed down their operations. Similarly, border patrol

1574
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:49,639
Speaker 2: officers paid close attention to the hotel and restaurant business,

1575
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:54,120
Speaker 2: which routinely hired undocumented Mexican immigrants as busboys, kitchen help waiters, etc.

1576
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 2: Officers reported apprehending such workers at well known establishments such

1577
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:01,639
Speaker 2: as the Biltmore Hotel, Beverly Hills, Hood Hoel, Hollywood, Roosevelt Hotel,

1578
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:04,840
Speaker 2: Los Angeles Athletic Club, and the Brown Derby. At times,

1579
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:07,960
Speaker 2: border patrol raids created moments of chaos at popular restaurants

1580
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:11,000
Speaker 2: when migrants attempted to escape by running through the servant area.

1581
01:21:11,120 --> 01:21:13,720
Speaker 2: Everywhere they went, the officers were chased and photographed by

1582
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 2: journalists who had come to witness what General Swing had

1583
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:19,759
Speaker 2: promised would be a spectacular show of US immigration law enforcement.

1584
01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:22,439
Speaker 2: Swing pledged that the Border Patrol would deport or otherwise

1585
01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:25,880
Speaker 2: purge the one million undocumented Mexican nationals estimated to be

1586
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 2: living in the United States at the time. Oh, that

1587
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:30,599
Speaker 2: sounds like a lot of fun.

1588
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:34,600
Speaker 3: Just yeah, they're just going buck wild with journalists in

1589
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:37,440
Speaker 3: the back, like this is great footage.

1590
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:40,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting because a huge number of these

1591
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 2: guys are immediately let back into the country. Like a

1592
01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:45,960
Speaker 2: lot of times, what they're doing is they're pushing them

1593
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 2: across the border and then making them recross under like

1594
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:51,479
Speaker 2: the Brassero program. So again they can be because they

1595
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:54,080
Speaker 2: need the labor, right, they don't want the brickyard shutdown.

1596
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:56,240
Speaker 2: They don't want these places to go to business. They

1597
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:58,679
Speaker 2: just don't want these people to be able to actually

1598
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:00,880
Speaker 2: build a life in the United States, right, they want

1599
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:03,960
Speaker 2: to guarantee that they go back. So that's like a

1600
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 2: huge chunk of what's of what's happening here, Like it's

1601
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:11,639
Speaker 2: it's basically taking it's taking the natural movement of people

1602
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 2: across an area where like their ancestors and relatives had

1603
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:19,839
Speaker 2: been moving freely for centuries, and it's stopping that, stopping

1604
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 2: like the ability of populations to move and build lives

1605
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 2: and turning them entirely into economic units. Right. Yes, you're

1606
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:28,519
Speaker 2: not a member of the community, you're your labor.

1607
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:33,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're an entirely different class of citizen,

1608
01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:36,480
Speaker 3: which is non citizen, which means.

1609
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:38,759
Speaker 2: Uh, you have your rights, Yeah, you have no rights.

1610
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:42,519
Speaker 3: You're you're not entitled to any of the human rights

1611
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:46,960
Speaker 3: that we give to our citizens. Super super normal and

1612
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:50,800
Speaker 3: definitely a natural state of things, certainly.

1613
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 2: Not definitely the way things are supposed to.

1614
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 3: Go, exactly, not an invention of humans at all.

1615
01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:00,120
Speaker 2: No. So at the same time as they're doing and

1616
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:02,160
Speaker 2: obviously the media is a big part of like why

1617
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:04,200
Speaker 2: this is such a hit because you know, I in

1618
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 2: s says, hey, we're going to raid the biltmore like yeah,

1619
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:08,479
Speaker 2: you're going to show up there, and like that's like

1620
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:12,560
Speaker 2: who doesn't want to see that as like a journalist,

1621
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:14,840
Speaker 2: So like part of like what part of like what

1622
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:17,760
Speaker 2: increases sort of the because the people hadn't really the

1623
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:20,639
Speaker 2: border patrol had not been probably most Americans have only

1624
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,439
Speaker 2: been kind of vaguely aware of its existence up until

1625
01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:25,679
Speaker 2: this point. This is part of what turns them into

1626
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:28,519
Speaker 2: like an institution within the United States. Is like all

1627
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:31,400
Speaker 2: of the press around Operation Wetback.

1628
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:34,560
Speaker 3: Right, it's like the uh, you know, they took a

1629
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:37,720
Speaker 3: cue from the FBI. They're like we need we need

1630
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:40,479
Speaker 3: to be flashy, we need to we need to look

1631
01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:44,080
Speaker 3: cool as shit doing a bunch of horrid shit to people.

1632
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:46,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like and you're talking about like what

1633
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:49,400
Speaker 2: the FBI does against anarchists and socialists and like the

1634
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:52,640
Speaker 2: late you know, the early nineteen hundreds. Yeah, this is

1635
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:54,400
Speaker 2: this is like the Border Patrol's equivalent of that.

1636
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and creating like, you know, an entire propaganda arm

1637
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 3: that made like, yeah, you know the g man cool.

1638
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 2: Yes, you know. Yes. And at the same time they're

1639
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:06,599
Speaker 2: doing this, Carter and Swing are like meeting with these

1640
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:10,200
Speaker 2: influential ranchers and farmers and industrialists, the people using the

1641
01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 2: undocumented migrant labor, and they're getting them in line between

1642
01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:17,360
Speaker 2: like a revamp of the Brasero program that is again

1643
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:20,519
Speaker 2: like supposed to fix some of the issues the programming had.

1644
01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:22,400
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get terribly into the weeds on

1645
01:24:22,439 --> 01:24:24,160
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. There's plenty of places to read

1646
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:29,240
Speaker 2: about that if you'd like, there's a pretty good article. Yeah,

1647
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 2: we'll have some sources in here, but the book Migra

1648
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:34,200
Speaker 2: goes into a tremendous amount of detail about it. So

1649
01:24:34,320 --> 01:24:37,599
Speaker 2: in the end, it was a wild success more than

1650
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 2: one million people are deported, potentially as many as one

1651
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:44,080
Speaker 2: and a half million people are deported beyond that, the

1652
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 2: precedent was established that the US Border Patrol could and

1653
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:51,960
Speaker 2: should conduct operations from deep within the United States. Border

1654
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 2: Patrol is legally able to carry out immigration checkpoints within

1655
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:59,400
Speaker 2: one hundred miles of the border right, any border, Like

1656
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 2: that's the exactly of any border right, which includes the

1657
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:07,320
Speaker 2: coasts in Canada. So basically all of the places where

1658
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:10,200
Speaker 2: most Americans live are covered by the two. About two

1659
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:12,960
Speaker 2: thirds of the US population are in this area, which

1660
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:16,000
Speaker 2: is why the Border Patrol has like the whitest ranging

1661
01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:21,120
Speaker 2: purview of any law enforcement agency pretty much. I guess yeah,

1662
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:23,280
Speaker 2: Like the FBI technically has more, but like their mission

1663
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:26,479
Speaker 2: is more limited anyway. It's whatever, Like this is like

1664
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 2: the Border Patrol. This is what turns them into what

1665
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 2: they are, to this monster, this juggernaut they are today

1666
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:34,320
Speaker 2: as opposed to like some dudes literally on the border,

1667
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:37,000
Speaker 2: you know, like say which like again and not that,

1668
01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:39,519
Speaker 2: Like they weren't getting up to problematic shit earlier in

1669
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:42,599
Speaker 2: their history, but their ability to do harm was limited

1670
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:46,240
Speaker 2: by geography. It's not after Operation Wetback and we can

1671
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 2: thank Harlan Carter for that, and it's it's it's worth

1672
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:52,000
Speaker 2: kind of noting here. I'm not going to get too

1673
01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:56,360
Speaker 2: much into Trump, but he Donald Trump consciously looks back

1674
01:25:56,400 --> 01:25:58,839
Speaker 2: to Harlan Carter's period of time running the border patrol

1675
01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:04,439
Speaker 2: as an inspiration. Yeah. During a twenty fifteen presidential Republican

1676
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:08,439
Speaker 2: presidential debate, Donald Trump said, quote, let me just tell

1677
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:12,080
Speaker 2: you that Dwight Eisenhower, good president, great president. People liked him.

1678
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:14,519
Speaker 2: I liked him. I like ike, right the expression I

1679
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:17,320
Speaker 2: like ike. Moved one point five million illegal immigrants out

1680
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:19,080
Speaker 2: of the country. Moved them just beyond the border. They

1681
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 2: came back. Moved them again beyond the border, they came back,

1682
01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 2: didn't like it, moved them way south. They never came back.

1683
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:27,160
Speaker 2: Dwight Eisenhower, you don't get nicer, you don't get friendlier.

1684
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:28,920
Speaker 2: They moved one and a half million people out. We

1685
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:33,240
Speaker 2: have no choice. We have no choice. Just so, first off,

1686
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:35,680
Speaker 2: obviously it's probably not gonna surprise people. That's again, as

1687
01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:38,639
Speaker 2: we've said, completely wrong, for among other things, nearly all

1688
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 2: of them come back.

1689
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:39,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1690
01:26:39,760 --> 01:26:42,320
Speaker 2: Oh, under like the pressera program, Like that's part of

1691
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:48,080
Speaker 2: the point, Like they're not but yeah, it's it's so Carter.

1692
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:52,880
Speaker 2: And again there's the kind of folks who like again

1693
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:56,160
Speaker 2: Swing I'm sure has his racism, Ike, there's racism, and

1694
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:58,040
Speaker 2: like his motivations, but it's also there's a lot of

1695
01:26:58,040 --> 01:27:00,720
Speaker 2: economic and just like they're the kind of people who

1696
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:03,600
Speaker 2: believe all of this stuff should be done based on

1697
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:05,480
Speaker 2: a set of laws. So they're like kind of fundamentally

1698
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:07,760
Speaker 2: if they're probably more offended by the fact that people

1699
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:11,080
Speaker 2: are undocumented than they are necessarily about the racial element

1700
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:12,559
Speaker 2: that's chunk of these people.

1701
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:17,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely, lack of documents alone is just like Jesus.

1702
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:20,360
Speaker 2: Carter's doing it for white supremacy. And that's the thing

1703
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:24,679
Speaker 2: you'll notice. The thing Trump takes out of Operation Wetback

1704
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:27,679
Speaker 2: isn't the way they established this kind of like system

1705
01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 2: in order to like document and like make these workers

1706
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:33,600
Speaker 2: legal in order to provide labor a labor for it. Like,

1707
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:35,360
Speaker 2: that's not the thing he takes out of this. The

1708
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:37,040
Speaker 2: thing he takes out of this is they got one

1709
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:39,840
Speaker 2: and a half million Mexicans to leave, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1710
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 2: Like that's the thing that has come down in history

1711
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:43,360
Speaker 2: from Carter's period, is the.

1712
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:45,800
Speaker 3: Right he's cutting to the heart of really what's going

1713
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:48,320
Speaker 3: on here behind all of the you know, I don't know,

1714
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:50,479
Speaker 3: respectability politics or whatever of it.

1715
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:53,160
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what has lived on that and of course

1716
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:55,240
Speaker 2: the militarization of the border patrol and the fact that

1717
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:56,920
Speaker 2: it gets to work every We get all of that

1718
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:02,000
Speaker 2: from Harlan Carter. And here's the thing, Harlan's just getting started.

1719
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:05,600
Speaker 2: This ain't even this ain't even his whole thing, right this,

1720
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 2: like this isn't even his main gig.

1721
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:11,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, we haven't even gotten to the beginning,

1722
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 3: which is like we're going to talk about some n

1723
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:14,320
Speaker 3: ras and some gun shit.

1724
01:28:14,360 --> 01:28:16,400
Speaker 2: We're not even into that ship yet. Like this is

1725
01:28:16,479 --> 01:28:19,680
Speaker 2: just his first gig, right, damn. This is his like

1726
01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:22,320
Speaker 2: the equivalent of the time like the rest of us

1727
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:25,760
Speaker 2: spent like working at a Windy's or something that, right,

1728
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:29,040
Speaker 2: this is this is Hitler at painting school. Yeah, this

1729
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:31,720
Speaker 2: is Yeah, this is Hitler at fucking like hanging out

1730
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:36,639
Speaker 2: in Austria and opera houses exactly arguing with homeless people

1731
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 2: about the Jews, which was like a whole chunk of

1732
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:41,080
Speaker 2: his life. But anyway, because he was homeless, dude, it's whatever.

1733
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:45,519
Speaker 2: They were living in a men's shelter anyway, Hitler. So

1734
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:48,760
Speaker 2: I should note before we move on to the NRA

1735
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:52,280
Speaker 2: that while Harlan Carter was massively expanding the reaching power

1736
01:28:52,280 --> 01:28:54,880
Speaker 2: of the Border Patrol, he was also robbing it blind

1737
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:58,360
Speaker 2: for his own benefit. See Harland loves shooting right, Like,

1738
01:28:58,400 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 2: he's not one of these NR like like Wayne Lapierre,

1739
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:02,240
Speaker 2: the current head of the NRA. I don't think Wayne

1740
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 2: particularly cares much about like a lot of these guys

1741
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:07,400
Speaker 2: like it's a political thing as opposed to them, like

1742
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:11,840
Speaker 2: Harlan Carter is you have to say, loves to shoot guns. Yeah,

1743
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:14,759
Speaker 2: but here's the thing about shooting guns. Bullets cost money.

1744
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:18,679
Speaker 2: So three years after Harlan Carter retires from government service

1745
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:22,360
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty seven, the Justice Department opens an investigation

1746
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 2: into what are termed quote various allegations against him, including

1747
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:28,599
Speaker 2: the claim that he had stolen forty to fifty thousand

1748
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 2: rounds of ammunition from the Border Patrol quote, with the

1749
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:34,040
Speaker 2: sole intent of converting this property to his own use

1750
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:37,599
Speaker 2: after he retired. Wowow, so he steals like a pallett

1751
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:39,440
Speaker 2: of bullets to go shoot privately.

1752
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:43,280
Speaker 3: I would love it if we found out that he's

1753
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:44,840
Speaker 3: the one who stole his mom's car.

1754
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:50,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, joy, I mean, oh fuck, I gotta find some Mexicans.

1755
01:29:51,160 --> 01:29:53,639
Speaker 2: Fifteen year old gets murdered. So yeah, it's not that funny,

1756
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:57,880
Speaker 2: but that's not impossible, right, Yes, So I'm going to

1757
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:00,880
Speaker 2: quote from the New York Times here about this theft

1758
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:03,960
Speaker 2: of tens of thousands of bullets that Harlan Carter perpetrated. Quote.

1759
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:06,920
Speaker 2: Asked in an interview in Denver about the allegations, mister

1760
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:09,200
Speaker 2: Carter said that he had testified before a federal grand

1761
01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:11,559
Speaker 2: jury in San Diego for some hours, and they covered

1762
01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 2: a lot of things, none of which I'm ashaved of

1763
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:15,640
Speaker 2: and none of which I had any difficulty asking. He

1764
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:17,840
Speaker 2: added that he did not quote know anything about the

1765
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:21,520
Speaker 2: disappearance or a misappropriation of government ammo. The missing ammunition,

1766
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 2: worth several thousand dollars, was never traced, according to an

1767
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:26,479
Speaker 2: agent who worked on the investigation, and no charges were

1768
01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:32,960
Speaker 2: fired filed. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very fun. Now,

1769
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:35,960
Speaker 2: obviously Carter didn't need to steal those bullets because he's

1770
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:38,280
Speaker 2: about to get a new job that is never going

1771
01:30:38,320 --> 01:30:41,240
Speaker 2: to let him run out of ammunition. So, as we

1772
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:43,200
Speaker 2: stated earlier, there's a little bit of debate about when

1773
01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:45,320
Speaker 2: he joined the NRA, whether it was before or after

1774
01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 2: he killed Raymond Cassiano. Probably he was like sixteen when

1775
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:53,679
Speaker 2: he joins. And in nineteen fifty one, the year after

1776
01:30:53,720 --> 01:30:55,640
Speaker 2: he becomes head of the Border Patrol, he joins the

1777
01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:59,920
Speaker 2: NRA's national board. And again at this point in time,

1778
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:02,360
Speaker 2: there's obviously there's people who are right wing in the NRA.

1779
01:31:02,439 --> 01:31:05,120
Speaker 2: There's who want it to be more of a conservative institution.

1780
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:09,160
Speaker 2: It's not really a political organization point right, right.

1781
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:12,400
Speaker 3: It's almost at this point from does this just from

1782
01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:15,600
Speaker 3: what I remember, it's almost an apolitical, just kind of

1783
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:17,120
Speaker 3: gun lobbying group that kind of.

1784
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:20,839
Speaker 2: They're not lobbying. There's no lobbying. They do not lobby

1785
01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:23,439
Speaker 2: in this period of time. They have the Sierra Club

1786
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:26,120
Speaker 2: at this point. Yeah, they're they're just kind of like, yeah,

1787
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 2: they're there to provide training courses for people. They're there.

1788
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:30,639
Speaker 2: They're there so that One of the things they do

1789
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:33,599
Speaker 2: is when the government demilitarizes weapons, right, they're like, okay,

1790
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:35,400
Speaker 2: we're not using like the inn one garrand is no

1791
01:31:35,439 --> 01:31:37,000
Speaker 2: longer the gun that the army uses. So we have

1792
01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:39,800
Speaker 2: a couple of million of these things. We will sell

1793
01:31:39,840 --> 01:31:41,960
Speaker 2: them at a discount to the NRA who can sell

1794
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:43,840
Speaker 2: them very cheap to their members, and like it's part

1795
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:46,120
Speaker 2: of this. So there's like stuff that they're doing, but

1796
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:49,720
Speaker 2: they're not they're not getting in there. And there are

1797
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:52,200
Speaker 2: they have some involvement politically, we'll talk about that in

1798
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:54,680
Speaker 2: a little bit, but they are not like lobbying on

1799
01:31:54,760 --> 01:31:57,519
Speaker 2: behalf of the Republican Party or something, right, like, that's

1800
01:31:57,560 --> 01:31:59,840
Speaker 2: not really a thing that the NRA is doing yet.

1801
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:02,679
Speaker 2: Harlan Carter wants that to be a thing that they're doing,

1802
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:04,840
Speaker 2: but they're not. In nineteen fifty one when he joins

1803
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:09,519
Speaker 2: the board, they're still not very political. But now that

1804
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:12,120
Speaker 2: he's on the board, he starts to see the organization

1805
01:32:12,200 --> 01:32:14,519
Speaker 2: with friends and comrades from the Border Patrol right because

1806
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:16,280
Speaker 2: he can help get people hired, he can put in

1807
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:18,559
Speaker 2: a good word. So he starts all of his buddies

1808
01:32:18,560 --> 01:32:20,679
Speaker 2: from the Border Patrol who are like wanning a cushy

1809
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:23,640
Speaker 2: job and the private sector after, you know, working for

1810
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:27,120
Speaker 2: the gut like, he starts filling them, filling the NRA

1811
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:30,439
Speaker 2: with them. So he finally leaves government service in the

1812
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:33,439
Speaker 2: early nineteen sixties. He stops running the Border Patrol in

1813
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:36,120
Speaker 2: fifty seven, but he does some other shit not really

1814
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:39,559
Speaker 2: that important for our purposes, but he's he retires from

1815
01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:42,160
Speaker 2: working for the government in the early sixties and he

1816
01:32:42,200 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 2: gets pretty much immediately elected presidents of the NRA from

1817
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five to nineteen sixty seven. But that doesn't

1818
01:32:48,479 --> 01:32:50,960
Speaker 2: mean he's actually running the NRA, like, right, it's just

1819
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:53,360
Speaker 2: like a job within the organization. You've still got this

1820
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:57,479
Speaker 2: board of directors. So he's an influential figure in the NRA,

1821
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:00,640
Speaker 2: but he's not actually like directing it at this point point.

1822
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:02,880
Speaker 3: Right, he's collecting a check and he's probably getting like,

1823
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:05,479
Speaker 3: you know, a bunch of free bullets, which is.

1824
01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 2: All even more free bullet. Well, he also wants he

1825
01:33:09,200 --> 01:33:11,320
Speaker 2: wants the NRA to get more political, and again we're

1826
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 2: gonna we're going to chat a little bit about why

1827
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:15,719
Speaker 2: in a second. But one of the things that happens

1828
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:18,519
Speaker 2: is like the folks at the NRA, who kind of

1829
01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:21,880
Speaker 2: don't necessarily want that, know, they have to do something

1830
01:33:21,920 --> 01:33:25,160
Speaker 2: with Harlan Carter, right, like, you can't like ignore him,

1831
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:27,600
Speaker 2: so they stick him. They create a lobbying arm for

1832
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:31,200
Speaker 2: the first time of the NRA, the Institute for Legislative action,

1833
01:33:31,720 --> 01:33:33,719
Speaker 2: and they put him in charge of it. And again,

1834
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:35,960
Speaker 2: this is the first time the NRA had had a

1835
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:39,920
Speaker 2: lobbying arm. In the early nineteen sixties, it was like

1836
01:33:40,439 --> 01:33:43,920
Speaker 2: not they barely funded it. So there's this, you know,

1837
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:46,640
Speaker 2: there's kind of this growing fight, and Harlan is one

1838
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:48,599
Speaker 2: of these guys saying that, like, hey, the NRA needs

1839
01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:50,640
Speaker 2: to get more political. We need to be lobbying, we

1840
01:33:50,680 --> 01:33:53,600
Speaker 2: need to be focused on Second Amendment advocacy. That was

1841
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 2: not had nothing like the NRA's planks, Like they're like

1842
01:33:57,479 --> 01:34:01,680
Speaker 2: stated purpose as an organization didn't include like protecting or

1843
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:03,559
Speaker 2: defending the Second Amendment at all, Like that was not

1844
01:34:03,680 --> 01:34:06,640
Speaker 2: on there even on their radar. Wow, he thinks it

1845
01:34:06,720 --> 01:34:08,960
Speaker 2: needs to be. And the old guard who run the

1846
01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:12,040
Speaker 2: NRA don't see it that way. They see themselves as

1847
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 2: essentially in partnership with the government to ensure the development

1848
01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:17,640
Speaker 2: of a heavy of a healthy shooting sports culture in

1849
01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:20,200
Speaker 2: the United States, right, And part of what that means

1850
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:22,840
Speaker 2: is that when gun control laws get passed, they work

1851
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:28,200
Speaker 2: with the government to formulate those laws. So again they're

1852
01:34:28,200 --> 01:34:30,519
Speaker 2: certainly like they're not anti gun, right, but they're not

1853
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:33,559
Speaker 2: anything we would recognize as like in like a modern

1854
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:34,559
Speaker 2: political context.

1855
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:36,400
Speaker 3: They just want to So it sounds like they just

1856
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:40,160
Speaker 3: want to make sure that gun control doesn't affect hunting

1857
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:46,360
Speaker 3: and or like regulation of people owning actual rifles or yeah.

1858
01:34:46,439 --> 01:34:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's again everything is different, right, Like nothing

1859
01:34:49,120 --> 01:34:51,559
Speaker 2: the AR fifteen exists in this period, but it's not

1860
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:54,519
Speaker 2: what it's going to become, right like, because it's it's

1861
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:57,120
Speaker 2: harder to make. They're much less common like today an

1862
01:34:57,360 --> 01:34:59,120
Speaker 2: AR Like. One of the things that has made the

1863
01:34:59,320 --> 01:35:03,439
Speaker 2: AR fifteen is is that it's a perfectly modular platform.

1864
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:05,880
Speaker 2: So it's basically like gun legos. So there's like a

1865
01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:08,920
Speaker 2: million you can customize it infinitely. You can make the

1866
01:35:08,960 --> 01:35:11,240
Speaker 2: basic gun itself for a couple one hundred bucks if

1867
01:35:11,240 --> 01:35:13,400
Speaker 2: you have some stuff. It's not like that at this point,

1868
01:35:13,479 --> 01:35:18,400
Speaker 2: right that's it's now it's like the Honda Civic of guns. Yeah, yeah,

1869
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:21,880
Speaker 2: so they just haven't Like part of why it's not

1870
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:23,439
Speaker 2: political in the way it will become is that there's

1871
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:25,959
Speaker 2: not really a need to you know, like no one's

1872
01:35:26,240 --> 01:35:31,559
Speaker 2: there's not like there's not the culture that the NRA

1873
01:35:31,720 --> 01:35:34,360
Speaker 2: helps to create doesn't exist because they're not doing that. So, yeah,

1874
01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:37,320
Speaker 2: their primary focus is like hunting and target shooting right, right,

1875
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:41,719
Speaker 2: and again. Carter has his own interpretation of the Second Amendment,

1876
01:35:41,800 --> 01:35:43,920
Speaker 2: and in the nineteen seventies he's going to go to

1877
01:35:43,960 --> 01:35:46,599
Speaker 2: war with the NRA's old Guard in order to change it.

1878
01:35:47,080 --> 01:35:49,880
Speaker 2: But before we get into that, we should probably have

1879
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 2: some ads. I love ads, Oh I do too, including

1880
01:35:55,120 --> 01:36:03,679
Speaker 2: this ad for guns, the concept of uh yeah guns. Sure.

1881
01:36:04,080 --> 01:36:06,519
Speaker 2: How about the life card? The life card. It's a

1882
01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:10,639
Speaker 2: gun that's built into a little credit card. Can it shoot? Well? No?

1883
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:12,040
Speaker 2: Is it accurate? Of course?

1884
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:12,200
Speaker 4: Not?

1885
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:15,320
Speaker 2: Is it? Is it a stupid thing to carry in

1886
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:22,840
Speaker 2: your pocket? Yes? Enjoy it's a real thing. Look, look

1887
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:25,160
Speaker 2: it up. Very oily gun of the of the of

1888
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:29,080
Speaker 2: the of the meme guns, easily the memiest. Wow, that's

1889
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 2: the whole thing we have these days. There's no meme guns.

1890
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:34,320
Speaker 2: In the nineteen sixties. We haven't invented memes, you know,

1891
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:38,639
Speaker 2: but we had one. But yeah, which was the meme

1892
01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:41,559
Speaker 2: from the nineteen sixties. Well it's it's earlier than that.

1893
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 2: You know that this is getting way off topic, But

1894
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:46,360
Speaker 2: you've just heard of Kilroy was here. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1895
01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:49,160
Speaker 2: there's memes. But yeah, I was thinking, I was like,

1896
01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:52,559
Speaker 2: was this is the Suppruder film. Was that a meme?

1897
01:36:53,240 --> 01:36:54,760
Speaker 3: But I guess that came out in the second case.

1898
01:36:55,040 --> 01:36:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it comes out a little late. O. That's

1899
01:36:56,960 --> 01:37:01,000
Speaker 2: like the sixties or mid sixties, right, But when what.

1900
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:03,360
Speaker 3: Did the did people see this Zappruder film? I thought

1901
01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:05,240
Speaker 3: that was like, I don't know.

1902
01:37:05,320 --> 01:37:08,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I will tell you my entire life. I

1903
01:37:08,000 --> 01:37:11,400
Speaker 2: have specifically picked houses with a floor plan where the

1904
01:37:11,439 --> 01:37:13,880
Speaker 2: bathroom is kind of like back into the left of

1905
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:16,560
Speaker 2: the living room, so that when people ask where the

1906
01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:19,000
Speaker 2: bathroom is, I can say, oh, just take a Kennedy well,

1907
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:22,280
Speaker 2: you know, go back into the left a JFK getting

1908
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:31,240
Speaker 2: murdered joke. Anyway, here's ads. Oh we're back. Noo, he's

1909
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:34,519
Speaker 2: having a good time. You know. Robert Kennedy was killed

1910
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:36,559
Speaker 2: with the twenty two, which is the same caliber as

1911
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:39,400
Speaker 2: the life card. Ah, the gun that's built into a

1912
01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:44,200
Speaker 2: credit card. Look, there's a credit card gun. Yeah yeah,

1913
01:37:44,240 --> 01:37:46,000
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, if Sir Hunt and Sir Hanna had

1914
01:37:46,160 --> 01:37:48,800
Speaker 2: one of those, RFK would probably be alive. Life card

1915
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:53,879
Speaker 2: is a really stupid gun. Anyway. The Second Amendment, well, actually,

1916
01:37:53,960 --> 01:37:56,400
Speaker 2: weirdly enough, that's getting close to an argument. Harlan Carter

1917
01:37:56,400 --> 01:37:58,360
Speaker 2: will later make but I don't want to. I don't

1918
01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:02,439
Speaker 2: want to get ahead of things. So the Second Amendment is,

1919
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:05,120
Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say, the most politicized part

1920
01:38:05,120 --> 01:38:07,599
Speaker 2: of the Bill of Rights today. Right, That's probably not.

1921
01:38:08,120 --> 01:38:10,320
Speaker 2: Maybe the First Amendment gives it a run for its money,

1922
01:38:11,320 --> 01:38:14,120
Speaker 2: but even then it's usually people differing over interpretations of

1923
01:38:14,160 --> 01:38:16,600
Speaker 2: the First Amendment as opposed to the argument over the

1924
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:20,080
Speaker 2: second is really should it exist or does it exist

1925
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:22,280
Speaker 2: in the way that it's like currently being interpreted, right,

1926
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:25,720
Speaker 2: because the awful lot of Americans think it shouldn't be

1927
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:29,600
Speaker 2: the law of the land at all, which is difficult

1928
01:38:29,720 --> 01:38:33,599
Speaker 2: to square with actually doing something legislatively because it does exist.

1929
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:36,559
Speaker 2: But anyway, in two thousand and eight, the Supreme Court

1930
01:38:36,680 --> 01:38:39,680
Speaker 2: ruled in DC versus Heller that the Second Amendment establishes

1931
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:42,880
Speaker 2: an individual right to bear arms. Now, obviously, a lot

1932
01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:45,800
Speaker 2: of liberals see this as terrible Jewish prudence and claim

1933
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:48,480
Speaker 2: that an individual right to bear arms was basically invented

1934
01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:52,720
Speaker 2: by the NRA. Conservatives will say the opposite, that this

1935
01:38:52,840 --> 01:38:56,080
Speaker 2: was clearly what the founders had intended, and the reality

1936
01:38:56,120 --> 01:38:59,040
Speaker 2: of it is that while an individualist interpretation of the

1937
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:01,760
Speaker 2: Second Amendment at federal level is only like twenty years old.

1938
01:39:02,040 --> 01:39:05,280
Speaker 2: Different courts have ruled very differently on the Second Amendment

1939
01:39:05,360 --> 01:39:07,920
Speaker 2: for quite a long time. And also the Supreme Court

1940
01:39:07,960 --> 01:39:10,800
Speaker 2: is stupid, So yes, like I don't personally give a

1941
01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:12,759
Speaker 2: good goddamn about what the Founders intended.

1942
01:39:13,120 --> 01:39:16,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, that seems like the weirdest standard to uphold to

1943
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:19,200
Speaker 3: this day, where we're like, well, the Founders intended, and

1944
01:39:19,240 --> 01:39:22,000
Speaker 3: it's like the Founders, first of all, none of them

1945
01:39:22,000 --> 01:39:22,599
Speaker 3: had teeth.

1946
01:39:23,040 --> 01:39:25,000
Speaker 2: None of them had and it's one of those this

1947
01:39:25,240 --> 01:39:28,200
Speaker 2: it's comprehensively wrong because again liberals will often be like, well,

1948
01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:30,559
Speaker 2: the Founders would never have wanted people to have AR fifteen's,

1949
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:32,800
Speaker 2: and it's like, did you know some of those guys, Yeah,

1950
01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:34,240
Speaker 2: a lot of those duds would have been like this

1951
01:39:34,280 --> 01:39:37,479
Speaker 2: will kill so many more, like digitous people, we should

1952
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:37,880
Speaker 2: have these.

1953
01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:41,040
Speaker 3: They all wore power powdered wigs because they all had

1954
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:45,000
Speaker 3: like herpes on their heads and they you know, they

1955
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:48,960
Speaker 3: were all syphilitics, so yeah, they were insane being like

1956
01:39:49,000 --> 01:39:51,360
Speaker 3: the Founders wouldn't like that. It's like no, no, no,

1957
01:39:51,479 --> 01:39:53,000
Speaker 3: don't defend the Founders.

1958
01:39:53,200 --> 01:39:54,640
Speaker 2: Well, and they would have they would have liked it

1959
01:39:54,640 --> 01:39:57,040
Speaker 2: for a variety of different reasons. Thomas Paine would have

1960
01:39:57,120 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 2: liked it because it would allow you to shoot government

1961
01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:01,960
Speaker 2: agents much y right, Like Thomas Jefferson would have liked

1962
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:03,920
Speaker 2: it because he was scared of how many slaves he had,

1963
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:07,320
Speaker 2: you know, exactly different different people would have liked it

1964
01:40:07,360 --> 01:40:10,920
Speaker 2: for different reasons. They all would love to have that gun. Yes,

1965
01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:17,280
Speaker 2: So obviously, again, as regards my personal standing towards gun control,

1966
01:40:17,320 --> 01:40:20,080
Speaker 2: I don't care about what the Founders thought about anything,

1967
01:40:20,360 --> 01:40:24,799
Speaker 2: including free speech, because they didn't actually believe in free speech. Yes, yes,

1968
01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:27,479
Speaker 2: because a lot of the moans, well, Thomas pain did.

1969
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:30,719
Speaker 2: Again he's he's our one, good one.

1970
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:35,120
Speaker 3: He was, you know, although kind of in a reactionary

1971
01:40:35,320 --> 01:40:38,160
Speaker 3: during the French Revolution. You know, they locked his ass up.

1972
01:40:38,400 --> 01:40:40,240
Speaker 2: They did lock his ass up during the French time,

1973
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:42,920
Speaker 2: because they locked a lot of people up. They really

1974
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:47,120
Speaker 2: just kind of went overboard. As it's still left. So

1975
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:50,600
Speaker 2: I think it's probably valuable to discuss how interpretations of

1976
01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:53,360
Speaker 2: the right to bare arms have varied over time in

1977
01:40:53,439 --> 01:40:56,120
Speaker 2: the United States, because again, if you're ever saying it's

1978
01:40:56,120 --> 01:40:58,960
Speaker 2: always meant this thing or that thing that's not you're

1979
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:01,439
Speaker 2: not going to be correct. Because a bunch of different

1980
01:41:01,439 --> 01:41:03,680
Speaker 2: courts have found a bunch of different things. So the

1981
01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:06,760
Speaker 2: Bill of Rights was the brainchild of James Madison, And

1982
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:09,880
Speaker 2: in portraits he's the founding father with just massive bags

1983
01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:12,120
Speaker 2: under his eyes, Like you look up a drawing of

1984
01:41:12,160 --> 01:41:14,800
Speaker 2: this dude. He looks fucking exhausted in every and he

1985
01:41:14,880 --> 01:41:15,680
Speaker 2: was every sketch of it.

1986
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:18,840
Speaker 3: He probably was literally dying at all times in his

1987
01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:19,839
Speaker 3: famed career.

1988
01:41:20,160 --> 01:41:24,040
Speaker 2: He was dying all the time. If only every American

1989
01:41:24,200 --> 01:41:26,439
Speaker 2: political leader had followed in his footsteps of Dye.

1990
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:29,759
Speaker 3: I know, I know, you know, he's yeah, he didn't.

1991
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:32,599
Speaker 3: He was supposed to write way more of the Federalist papers,

1992
01:41:32,600 --> 01:41:34,280
Speaker 3: but he was so sickly he couldn't.

1993
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:37,840
Speaker 2: We are getting to that. So obviously he's a he's

1994
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:41,200
Speaker 2: you know, on that side of the federalist anti federalist divide.

1995
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:43,040
Speaker 2: But he drafts the Bill of Rights because the anti

1996
01:41:43,080 --> 01:41:46,000
Speaker 2: federalists are worried, and they have a very good point

1997
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:49,839
Speaker 2: that like, Okay, well, we're establishing this supposedly democratic government,

1998
01:41:50,120 --> 01:41:52,200
Speaker 2: but if we don't place limits on the powers of

1999
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:54,040
Speaker 2: the federal government, they could get the power to do

2000
01:41:54,080 --> 01:41:56,559
Speaker 2: anything one day, which is a very reasonable thing you're

2001
01:41:56,640 --> 01:42:00,880
Speaker 2: pcerned about right. Broadly speaking, one of the ideas the

2002
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:04,200
Speaker 2: founders had was having a Bill of rights. Yes, so

2003
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:06,600
Speaker 2: most of them are terrified of the idea of a

2004
01:42:06,640 --> 01:42:09,160
Speaker 2: permanent standing army, which is also a good thing to

2005
01:42:09,200 --> 01:42:11,360
Speaker 2: be frightened of. And if we had stuck with that idea,

2006
01:42:11,680 --> 01:42:14,680
Speaker 2: maybe things would be a little bit better. One of

2007
01:42:14,720 --> 01:42:16,559
Speaker 2: the things that like, these guys are all ancient Roman

2008
01:42:16,680 --> 01:42:19,000
Speaker 2: history nerds, right, and they are well aware that, like

2009
01:42:19,040 --> 01:42:22,160
Speaker 2: the history of the Roman Republic includes so many times

2010
01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:25,000
Speaker 2: where just like a guy gets an army and takes over, right,

2011
01:42:25,320 --> 01:42:27,160
Speaker 2: or tries to take over, and there's a big fucking

2012
01:42:27,200 --> 01:42:30,920
Speaker 2: fight over it. So they don't like the idea of

2013
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:34,600
Speaker 2: like this big centralized standing army because it's very dangerous.

2014
01:42:35,400 --> 01:42:38,839
Speaker 2: So the Second Amendment was initially drafted to guarantee people's

2015
01:42:38,960 --> 01:42:42,080
Speaker 2: right to form a militia. The original text and this

2016
01:42:42,200 --> 01:42:43,600
Speaker 2: is not what's in the Bill of Rights now, but

2017
01:42:43,640 --> 01:42:46,280
Speaker 2: this is the original text. Madison rights is quote the

2018
01:42:46,400 --> 01:42:48,400
Speaker 2: right of the people to keep in bear arms shall

2019
01:42:48,439 --> 01:42:51,400
Speaker 2: not be infringed simi colan, A well armed and well

2020
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:55,280
Speaker 2: regulated militia being the best security of a free country colon.

2021
01:42:55,400 --> 01:42:58,200
Speaker 2: But no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be

2022
01:42:58,240 --> 01:43:02,639
Speaker 2: compelled to render military service person. Now this is interesting

2023
01:43:02,640 --> 01:43:06,439
Speaker 2: because if that had been in the Bill of Rights today, right,

2024
01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:08,759
Speaker 2: this would have done a couple of things. Among other things,

2025
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:11,200
Speaker 2: it would probably have made a draft impossible, right because

2026
01:43:11,200 --> 01:43:13,880
Speaker 2: that second clause is like you cannot force someone to

2027
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:16,519
Speaker 2: render military service, which is like you would think would

2028
01:43:16,560 --> 01:43:20,479
Speaker 2: make a draft impossible. That said, it also might have

2029
01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:22,519
Speaker 2: made it impossible to do things that a lot of

2030
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:26,160
Speaker 2: liberal support, like banning weapons like the Era fifteen, because

2031
01:43:26,280 --> 01:43:28,760
Speaker 2: when you have well armed in there, it does kind

2032
01:43:28,800 --> 01:43:32,320
Speaker 2: of seem to more specifically endorse heavier firepower than the

2033
01:43:32,360 --> 01:43:36,320
Speaker 2: current text of the Second Amendment does. That interpretation could

2034
01:43:36,320 --> 01:43:38,479
Speaker 2: at least be argued. Now this is all academic because

2035
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:40,960
Speaker 2: the wording winds up being changed to the present text,

2036
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:44,200
Speaker 2: which puts well regulated upfront and fun times, also makes

2037
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:49,880
Speaker 2: it legal to draft people. Obviously, people will have argued

2038
01:43:49,880 --> 01:43:52,160
Speaker 2: for years and will be arguing for years what the

2039
01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:55,080
Speaker 2: Second Amendment should mean about gun control and how it

2040
01:43:55,120 --> 01:43:59,480
Speaker 2: should function. I'm not an originalist. I think the Constitution

2041
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:03,360
Speaker 2: is too old for anyone to care about. But obviously

2042
01:44:03,360 --> 01:44:05,040
Speaker 2: it does matter because it is the law of the land,

2043
01:44:05,080 --> 01:44:07,080
Speaker 2: and how it's written and how it's interpreted has a

2044
01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:10,720
Speaker 2: huge impact on what is legally possible within the present situation.

2045
01:44:11,800 --> 01:44:15,360
Speaker 2: And so I think the context of how the Second

2046
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:19,040
Speaker 2: Amendment was seen at the time is helpful to have,

2047
01:44:19,680 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 2: even though again I'm not an originalist. Please don't take

2048
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:24,840
Speaker 2: this as me arguing because the Founding Fathers felt this way,

2049
01:44:24,880 --> 01:44:26,439
Speaker 2: this is how people should act.

2050
01:44:26,479 --> 01:44:29,439
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think we've said we can stress enough.

2051
01:44:29,640 --> 01:44:33,360
Speaker 3: We do not care what the Founding Fathers thought about

2052
01:44:33,479 --> 01:44:34,439
Speaker 3: literally anything.

2053
01:44:34,640 --> 01:44:38,120
Speaker 2: My stance broadly in support of civilian arms ownership has

2054
01:44:38,160 --> 01:44:42,479
Speaker 2: nothing to do with the Constitution, because it's a stupid

2055
01:44:42,560 --> 01:44:45,519
Speaker 2: document written a long time. Well again, given the time,

2056
01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:48,519
Speaker 2: not a stupid document problem better than anyway, whatever, I

2057
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:50,640
Speaker 2: don't need to have this conversation. I am going to

2058
01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:52,479
Speaker 2: quote from the New Yorker here because I think it

2059
01:44:52,479 --> 01:44:56,360
Speaker 2: gives some helpful context. None of this, this being the

2060
01:44:56,400 --> 01:44:59,240
Speaker 2: Second Amendment, had anything to do with hunting. People who

2061
01:44:59,280 --> 01:45:01,479
Speaker 2: owned and used long arms to hunt continued to own

2062
01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:04,160
Speaker 2: and use them. The Second Amendment was not commonly understood

2063
01:45:04,160 --> 01:45:07,000
Speaker 2: as having any relevance to the shooting of animals. As

2064
01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:09,840
Speaker 2: Gary Willis once wrote, one does not bear arms against

2065
01:45:09,840 --> 01:45:13,479
Speaker 2: a rabbit. Meanwhile, militias continued to muster. The Continental Army

2066
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:15,559
Speaker 2: was disbanded at the end of the Revolutionary War, but

2067
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:18,280
Speaker 2: the national defense was increasingly assumed by the US Army.

2068
01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:20,240
Speaker 2: By the middle of the nineteenth century, the US had

2069
01:45:20,280 --> 01:45:23,080
Speaker 2: a standing army after all. And this is one of

2070
01:45:23,120 --> 01:45:26,599
Speaker 2: the things I think is interesting because again, the kind

2071
01:45:26,640 --> 01:45:29,439
Speaker 2: of especially on Twitter, common takes on one side or

2072
01:45:29,439 --> 01:45:32,280
Speaker 2: the other. This is that like, well, you don't need

2073
01:45:32,439 --> 01:45:35,160
Speaker 2: these guns for hunting, which is obviously the intent of

2074
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:37,920
Speaker 2: the Second Amendment, which no, it's absolutely not. But at

2075
01:45:37,920 --> 01:45:40,559
Speaker 2: the same time, the idea of the Second Amendment as

2076
01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:43,800
Speaker 2: referring to an individual's ability to stockpile in arsenal is

2077
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:46,680
Speaker 2: not really accurate because it was within the context of

2078
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:50,559
Speaker 2: a militia. However, if you're bringing that up, it's one

2079
01:45:50,640 --> 01:45:53,479
Speaker 2: of the things that they meant by like, one of

2080
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:56,440
Speaker 2: the things that the founding fathers wanted with this militia

2081
01:45:56,479 --> 01:45:59,200
Speaker 2: was for it to be the primary method of defending

2082
01:45:59,200 --> 01:46:02,320
Speaker 2: the country, as opposed to a massive standing army. So again,

2083
01:46:02,360 --> 01:46:04,560
Speaker 2: if you are if you are for one reason or

2084
01:46:04,600 --> 01:46:06,439
Speaker 2: the other, if you're arguing that we should do things

2085
01:46:06,479 --> 01:46:09,400
Speaker 2: the way the Founding Fathers argued, probably the most accurate

2086
01:46:09,439 --> 01:46:12,760
Speaker 2: thing would be to limit civilian arms ownership outside of

2087
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:14,880
Speaker 2: the context of a militia, and also ensure that the

2088
01:46:14,880 --> 01:46:17,759
Speaker 2: militia is the only armed force in the country, including police,

2089
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:21,280
Speaker 2: so that like a massive civilian militia is the only

2090
01:46:21,479 --> 01:46:24,960
Speaker 2: armed force. There's no federal power to deploy a massive

2091
01:46:25,000 --> 01:46:28,080
Speaker 2: military and there's not really federal policing in any meaningful way,

2092
01:46:28,160 --> 01:46:30,759
Speaker 2: because that's how things were in the eighteen hundreds, right, Yeah, yeah,

2093
01:46:30,800 --> 01:46:33,919
Speaker 2: if you're or seventeen, if you're arguing that, that's probably

2094
01:46:34,000 --> 01:46:38,840
Speaker 2: closer to an originalist interpretation than anything being argued right now, right,

2095
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:41,120
Speaker 2: Which is not to say that that makes much sense

2096
01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:44,440
Speaker 2: in the current day at all, although I would argue

2097
01:46:44,680 --> 01:46:46,519
Speaker 2: there's a number of you could look at, like what

2098
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:49,880
Speaker 2: Switzerland does, right, which is often brought up by Second

2099
01:46:49,880 --> 01:46:52,280
Speaker 2: Amendment advocates. Do they do? I don't even know what

2100
01:46:52,800 --> 01:46:57,640
Speaker 2: Switzerland has. Like basically, if you want to own a

2101
01:46:57,680 --> 01:47:00,479
Speaker 2: weapon in Switzerland, the government will give you one, but

2102
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:02,600
Speaker 2: like there's training and you're part of a militia to

2103
01:47:02,640 --> 01:47:05,960
Speaker 2: get it. It is a military assault rifle, right, And

2104
01:47:06,120 --> 01:47:09,599
Speaker 2: a lot of Switzerland's are the percentage of Swiss people

2105
01:47:09,640 --> 01:47:12,240
Speaker 2: who own guns is not significant compared to the United States,

2106
01:47:12,240 --> 01:47:13,760
Speaker 2: but it's one of the highest in the world. Right,

2107
01:47:14,160 --> 01:47:16,760
Speaker 2: But it does come as you don't it's not, well,

2108
01:47:16,800 --> 01:47:18,880
Speaker 2: you can buy some arms in Switzerland. It's not like

2109
01:47:19,439 --> 01:47:22,519
Speaker 2: you're not like just stockpiling guns for your own personal thing.

2110
01:47:22,720 --> 01:47:25,280
Speaker 2: You are being armed by the state as part of

2111
01:47:25,320 --> 01:47:29,360
Speaker 2: the state's defense apparatus. Right, But also not in a

2112
01:47:29,400 --> 01:47:32,200
Speaker 2: way like the Swiss, Like the civilians who own guns

2113
01:47:32,200 --> 01:47:35,200
Speaker 2: in Switzerland are not like deployed for obviously Switzerland, right,

2114
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:39,320
Speaker 2: they don't do that shit famously. But anyway, I mean,

2115
01:47:40,080 --> 01:47:42,320
Speaker 2: this is again when I talk about like Rojava and

2116
01:47:42,400 --> 01:47:44,759
Speaker 2: like what I think about in terms of the value

2117
01:47:44,800 --> 01:47:47,040
Speaker 2: of the state not having a monopoly on the use

2118
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:49,320
Speaker 2: of force. These are some of the things that I

2119
01:47:49,439 --> 01:47:53,960
Speaker 2: think about broadly speaking. You know, stuff has been different

2120
01:47:54,439 --> 01:47:58,280
Speaker 2: about the Second Amendment a little bit, and kind of

2121
01:47:58,320 --> 01:48:03,960
Speaker 2: as a result, the Second Amendment, as heavily politicized as

2122
01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:06,439
Speaker 2: it is now, was kind of like nobody it was

2123
01:48:06,479 --> 01:48:08,759
Speaker 2: like the Third Amendment, Right, nobody talks about that anymore.

2124
01:48:08,840 --> 01:48:11,639
Speaker 2: Nobody fucking talked about the Second Amendment on a national

2125
01:48:11,760 --> 01:48:15,320
Speaker 2: level for like a century or so, Right, we talked

2126
01:48:15,320 --> 01:48:17,760
Speaker 2: about like gun control earlier, but it was basically all

2127
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:20,120
Speaker 2: state level, right, different states, different cities would have like

2128
01:48:20,200 --> 01:48:23,760
Speaker 2: different rules based on shit that was happening there. The

2129
01:48:23,800 --> 01:48:27,320
Speaker 2: federal government left them alone. Like, there was not really

2130
01:48:27,400 --> 01:48:30,120
Speaker 2: any kind of federal interest in regulating the Second Amendment

2131
01:48:30,320 --> 01:48:32,720
Speaker 2: until the early nineteen thirties, and that is when we

2132
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:36,960
Speaker 2: get our first major piece of national gun control legislation. Now,

2133
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:40,439
Speaker 2: the NFA or National Firearms Act, was a response to

2134
01:48:40,520 --> 01:48:44,439
Speaker 2: the era of the gangster right. In particular, you get

2135
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:47,320
Speaker 2: this weapon starting in like I don't know exactly when

2136
01:48:47,320 --> 01:48:48,680
Speaker 2: it was invented, I could have looked it up, but

2137
01:48:48,720 --> 01:48:51,920
Speaker 2: like it becomes popular in the thirties, the Tommy gun, right,

2138
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:56,920
Speaker 2: which is the Thompson submachine gun. And it is broadly speaking,

2139
01:48:57,080 --> 01:48:58,880
Speaker 2: kind of like at least in terms of the way

2140
01:48:58,880 --> 01:49:00,680
Speaker 2: it's interpreted by the media and the way it's used

2141
01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:02,680
Speaker 2: in crime, kind of like the AR fifteen of its day,

2142
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:06,400
Speaker 2: because it is Thompson. It's an automatic forty five caliber weapon.

2143
01:49:06,439 --> 01:49:08,439
Speaker 2: It's a submachine gun, right, so it's not like a

2144
01:49:08,479 --> 01:49:11,719
Speaker 2: full sized rifle. This will be one of the most

2145
01:49:11,760 --> 01:49:14,280
Speaker 2: popular squad weapons that the United States uses in World

2146
01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:17,360
Speaker 2: War two. Right, a very effective weapon for what it does,

2147
01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:20,000
Speaker 2: which is shoot a lot of big, heavy, slow bullets

2148
01:49:20,080 --> 01:49:24,880
Speaker 2: very quickly at people at close range. So super good

2149
01:49:25,160 --> 01:49:27,599
Speaker 2: if you're, for example, a gangster who wants to murder

2150
01:49:27,640 --> 01:49:30,200
Speaker 2: a bunch of people in an enclosed room. Right, if

2151
01:49:30,200 --> 01:49:32,120
Speaker 2: you're like fighting a bunch of other gangsters up against

2152
01:49:32,120 --> 01:49:33,720
Speaker 2: the wall, you can kill a shitload of people with

2153
01:49:33,760 --> 01:49:34,120
Speaker 2: a Tommy.

2154
01:49:34,200 --> 01:49:37,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, very fun for you know, pulling off

2155
01:49:37,280 --> 01:49:39,679
Speaker 3: some sort of Saint Valentine's Day.

2156
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:43,400
Speaker 2: Mass, incredible bank robbing weapon. Great for all sorts of.

2157
01:49:43,400 --> 01:49:46,880
Speaker 3: Stuff, going to the local gobba ghoolery and shooting up

2158
01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:48,440
Speaker 3: the gabba gule exactly.

2159
01:49:49,120 --> 01:49:50,679
Speaker 2: You could gabba a hell of a lot of ghoul

2160
01:49:50,720 --> 01:49:54,760
Speaker 2: with his lots and it's it's nowadays, honestly not that

2161
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:58,519
Speaker 2: impressive of a weapon, but that at the time, right,

2162
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:01,320
Speaker 2: Like prior to this, most America like their experience with

2163
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:04,760
Speaker 2: is like single shot rifles and lever action guns and

2164
01:50:04,840 --> 01:50:07,840
Speaker 2: like revolvers and shit. Right, even semi automatic handguns are

2165
01:50:07,880 --> 01:50:12,120
Speaker 2: pretty new and fancy in the thirties. The Thompson is

2166
01:50:12,200 --> 01:50:15,720
Speaker 2: just so much deadlier than anything else that's as fu

2167
01:50:16,000 --> 01:50:18,960
Speaker 2: and the crimes that get committed with it again, as

2168
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:22,000
Speaker 2: with the Air fifteen, on like a national scale, very

2169
01:50:22,040 --> 01:50:25,240
Speaker 2: little gun crime involves a Thompson sub machine guns. And again,

2170
01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:28,519
Speaker 2: the Air fifteen not the most common gun used in

2171
01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:31,680
Speaker 2: crime by any like, It's not super common compared to

2172
01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:33,920
Speaker 2: a lot of other kinds of firearm, but the crimes

2173
01:50:33,960 --> 01:50:38,120
Speaker 2: that it's used in are so spectacular and kind of

2174
01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:42,040
Speaker 2: like horrifying that they shock the nation. And law enforcement

2175
01:50:42,400 --> 01:50:44,240
Speaker 2: gets nuts about this because one of the things that

2176
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:46,280
Speaker 2: gangsters do with Tommy guns is shoot lots of police

2177
01:50:46,320 --> 01:50:50,960
Speaker 2: officers with them. So there's a whole kind of America's

2178
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:54,400
Speaker 2: first panic over a gun, right is what happens with

2179
01:50:54,479 --> 01:50:56,840
Speaker 2: the Tommy gun in the thirties. And it's not just

2180
01:50:56,880 --> 01:50:59,600
Speaker 2: the Tommy gun. They're also freaking out about sawt off shotguns,

2181
01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:02,760
Speaker 2: which is actually pretty dumb. They're only scared about them

2182
01:51:02,800 --> 01:51:06,080
Speaker 2: because you can like hide them, hide them, but they're

2183
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:08,639
Speaker 2: they're not even like anyway, it's dumb for saw off

2184
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:11,360
Speaker 2: shotguns to be regulated more than regular shotguns. They're actually

2185
01:51:11,400 --> 01:51:14,960
Speaker 2: less deadly, Yeah, but whatever, they look cool as funny

2186
01:51:14,960 --> 01:51:17,200
Speaker 2: they look, and you see them a lot in the

2187
01:51:17,200 --> 01:51:19,880
Speaker 2: hands of gangsters. Right, So it's again there's this part

2188
01:51:19,920 --> 01:51:21,600
Speaker 2: of this is that like, yeah, the Thompson is a

2189
01:51:21,600 --> 01:51:24,400
Speaker 2: lot deadlier than guns that had been available before. But

2190
01:51:24,479 --> 01:51:26,880
Speaker 2: part of it's also just like there's this media sort

2191
01:51:26,920 --> 01:51:29,840
Speaker 2: of panic around the Thompson. Right. And by the way,

2192
01:51:29,880 --> 01:51:31,320
Speaker 2: I should note at this period of time, if you

2193
01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:34,719
Speaker 2: want a Thompson, you write to Sears and they mail

2194
01:51:34,760 --> 01:51:38,280
Speaker 2: one to your house. Like, this is not They're not

2195
01:51:38,400 --> 01:51:39,960
Speaker 2: like you don't have to go to a gun store.

2196
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:42,280
Speaker 2: You don't do it. They're like background checks, like they

2197
01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:44,200
Speaker 2: just will send it to you. It's like if you

2198
01:51:44,360 --> 01:51:46,559
Speaker 2: order like a book on Amazon. It was that easy

2199
01:51:46,600 --> 01:51:50,479
Speaker 2: to get a Thompson sub machine gun. So the NFA

2200
01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:53,960
Speaker 2: puts an end to that. It heavily restricts the ownership

2201
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:58,800
Speaker 2: of machine guns, sawt off shotguns, and silencers. Now, the

2202
01:51:58,920 --> 01:52:01,679
Speaker 2: NRA is again not a political organization at this point.

2203
01:52:01,760 --> 01:52:04,960
Speaker 2: It does initially oppose the NFA, and this is kind

2204
01:52:04,960 --> 01:52:08,719
Speaker 2: of the first time it gets political. The organization writes

2205
01:52:08,720 --> 01:52:12,320
Speaker 2: a descent in their magazine, American Riflemen, and this is

2206
01:52:12,360 --> 01:52:16,240
Speaker 2: a pretty like tamely phrased descent, and it prompts congressional

2207
01:52:16,320 --> 01:52:18,160
Speaker 2: leaders to sit down with the NRA and work to

2208
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:20,680
Speaker 2: limit their bill. The main thing that it does is

2209
01:52:20,720 --> 01:52:23,920
Speaker 2: that like it stops the ban from being total, so

2210
01:52:24,080 --> 01:52:28,120
Speaker 2: rich people can still get machine guns, shotguns, and silencers right. Well,

2211
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:30,680
Speaker 2: and we could tell you, I could rant about silencers,

2212
01:52:30,680 --> 01:52:32,519
Speaker 2: which are not what people tend to think.

2213
01:52:32,560 --> 01:52:33,439
Speaker 3: They're not silent.

2214
01:52:33,720 --> 01:52:36,599
Speaker 2: They're not silent. All of these things are still legal

2215
01:52:36,600 --> 01:52:38,200
Speaker 2: if you have the money. Right in the case of

2216
01:52:38,240 --> 01:52:41,080
Speaker 2: like a silencer or a what's called a short bariled shotgun,

2217
01:52:41,080 --> 01:52:42,720
Speaker 2: it takes like a two hundred dollars tax stamp in

2218
01:52:42,760 --> 01:52:45,679
Speaker 2: a couple of months. It's technically like a similar legal

2219
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:47,840
Speaker 2: process to get a machine gun. But machine guns cost.

2220
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:50,200
Speaker 2: The cheapest machine guns today are like ten thousand dollars.

2221
01:52:50,200 --> 01:52:52,519
Speaker 2: So it's that's why you don't see them like used

2222
01:52:52,520 --> 01:52:56,040
Speaker 2: in crimes. Yeah, I guess I don't know what a

2223
01:52:56,080 --> 01:53:00,840
Speaker 2: machine gun is. An AR fifteen is a my automatic gun.

2224
01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:03,240
Speaker 2: The legal definition of a machine gun is a weapon

2225
01:53:03,240 --> 01:53:05,800
Speaker 2: that will fire more than one bullet per trigger. Poll Right,

2226
01:53:06,400 --> 01:53:08,639
Speaker 2: this is all very wonky because like we had bump

2227
01:53:08,640 --> 01:53:12,040
Speaker 2: stocks a while ago function more or less as a

2228
01:53:12,080 --> 01:53:15,960
Speaker 2: machine gun, but legally weren't technically a machine gun. There's

2229
01:53:15,960 --> 01:53:18,479
Speaker 2: a couple of weird kinds of triggers you can as

2230
01:53:18,520 --> 01:53:21,519
Speaker 2: with anything with guns, because when you like, when you

2231
01:53:21,760 --> 01:53:23,400
Speaker 2: make a law to ban a thing, you have to

2232
01:53:23,400 --> 01:53:26,400
Speaker 2: specify what that thing is in mechanical terms, right, And

2233
01:53:26,439 --> 01:53:28,040
Speaker 2: so you find a way to people do this with

2234
01:53:28,120 --> 01:53:30,679
Speaker 2: drugs too, where it's like, Okay, they banned MDMA, let's

2235
01:53:30,720 --> 01:53:32,720
Speaker 2: make a drug that affects the same parts of the

2236
01:53:32,760 --> 01:53:37,560
Speaker 2: brain but doesn't like isn't explicitly banned, right, right, different compound, Yeah,

2237
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:39,400
Speaker 2: and the same thing happens. Now there are sawt off

2238
01:53:39,400 --> 01:53:43,519
Speaker 2: shotguns that aren't legally shotguns because of very anyway, whatever.

2239
01:53:44,400 --> 01:53:46,600
Speaker 2: This is getting off of the point a bit, But

2240
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:49,840
Speaker 2: the NRA works with It works with Congress, right. They

2241
01:53:49,840 --> 01:53:53,040
Speaker 2: don't do like a big political brujaha. They're like, hey,

2242
01:53:53,160 --> 01:53:54,960
Speaker 2: we want to make sure that rich people can still

2243
01:53:55,000 --> 01:53:57,200
Speaker 2: own these weapons. Let's let's sit down and work some

2244
01:53:57,280 --> 01:53:59,800
Speaker 2: things out. And Congress is happy to work with them. Now,

2245
01:54:00,040 --> 01:54:03,519
Speaker 2: some people in Congress are The Attorney General claims that

2246
01:54:03,520 --> 01:54:08,720
Speaker 2: they emasculate the bill. But broadly speaking, the NFA seriously

2247
01:54:08,800 --> 01:54:11,680
Speaker 2: limits the types of weapons that civilians are allowed to have,

2248
01:54:11,720 --> 01:54:13,120
Speaker 2: and this is the first time anyone had done that

2249
01:54:13,120 --> 01:54:15,599
Speaker 2: at the federal level. And the NRA is pretty happy

2250
01:54:15,600 --> 01:54:18,160
Speaker 2: with the resulting bill, and they endorse the nineteen thirty

2251
01:54:18,160 --> 01:54:22,880
Speaker 2: four NFA. Now, there was still no massive national discussion

2252
01:54:22,880 --> 01:54:25,679
Speaker 2: of the Second Amendment as an individual right in this period,

2253
01:54:26,960 --> 01:54:30,360
Speaker 2: not that it was like particularly discussed much at all.

2254
01:54:31,360 --> 01:54:36,240
Speaker 2: This is just not super constitutionally controversial in the period

2255
01:54:36,280 --> 01:54:38,600
Speaker 2: of time. It's not yet part of the culture war.

2256
01:54:38,960 --> 01:54:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah it has, Yeah, that hasn't really evolved yet. The context,

2257
01:54:43,240 --> 01:54:45,840
Speaker 2: the discussion of the Second Amendment as an individual right

2258
01:54:45,880 --> 01:54:48,360
Speaker 2: to bear arms doesn't really start to take off until

2259
01:54:48,360 --> 01:54:51,320
Speaker 2: the early nineteen sixties, and this is when the very

2260
01:54:51,360 --> 01:54:56,360
Speaker 2: first law review articles arguing an individualist interpretation are published. Now,

2261
01:54:56,400 --> 01:54:59,520
Speaker 2: this period coincides with the civil rights movement and the

2262
01:54:59,560 --> 01:55:03,080
Speaker 2: second big push for gun control in federal history. This

2263
01:55:03,200 --> 01:55:05,800
Speaker 2: time rather than will racism and crime have a role

2264
01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:07,720
Speaker 2: to plays we'll discuss. But one of the first things

2265
01:55:07,760 --> 01:55:12,600
Speaker 2: that sets it off is the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Famously,

2266
01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:15,520
Speaker 2: John F. Kennedy is assassinated by Bernard Sanders using a

2267
01:55:15,520 --> 01:55:18,600
Speaker 2: manlukir Karkana rifle that he'd ordered from a classified ad

2268
01:55:18,640 --> 01:55:21,640
Speaker 2: in the American Rifleman Magazine, which is the MRAs magazine.

2269
01:55:21,960 --> 01:55:23,960
Speaker 2: So the gun that kills GfK is ordered from the

2270
01:55:24,000 --> 01:55:28,040
Speaker 2: back of a magazine, right, yeah, and it's not. Again,

2271
01:55:28,320 --> 01:55:30,200
Speaker 2: he's not killed with like anything you would consider an

2272
01:55:30,200 --> 01:55:33,320
Speaker 2: assault weapon. It's like an old bolt action rifle. But

2273
01:55:33,400 --> 01:55:35,200
Speaker 2: the fact that he was able to get it from

2274
01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:38,960
Speaker 2: like a magazine ad becomes like and like, you know, again,

2275
01:55:39,000 --> 01:55:43,240
Speaker 2: background checks are not really a thing yet, and that's

2276
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:46,920
Speaker 2: that makes a lot of people very angry. And I'm

2277
01:55:46,920 --> 01:55:51,160
Speaker 2: going to quote now from an article by Alina Savadra Buckley. Quote.

2278
01:55:51,560 --> 01:55:54,360
Speaker 2: For years prior to Kennedy's assassination, America had been watching

2279
01:55:54,360 --> 01:55:56,600
Speaker 2: television and learning how to shoot. In the nineteen fifties,

2280
01:55:56,600 --> 01:55:59,720
Speaker 2: when Hollywood studios were churning out Westerns, Popular Science estimated

2281
01:55:59,760 --> 01:56:02,480
Speaker 2: that famillion Americans had started quick draws shooting for fun,

2282
01:56:02,760 --> 01:56:04,880
Speaker 2: and by the end of the decade, three thousand Western

2283
01:56:04,880 --> 01:56:07,800
Speaker 2: style guns were selling per week, according to Frank Smyth

2284
01:56:07,880 --> 01:56:10,600
Speaker 2: in his book The NRA The Unauthorized History. At the

2285
01:56:10,600 --> 01:56:13,280
Speaker 2: same time, accidental gun wounds and deaths were on the rise,

2286
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:16,080
Speaker 2: and three out of four Americans supported stricter gun control measures.

2287
01:56:16,120 --> 01:56:18,919
Speaker 2: As a result, the NRA braced itself for new legislation

2288
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:21,560
Speaker 2: in the early nineteen sixties, sprinkling the first references to

2289
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:25,480
Speaker 2: the Second Amendment in American Riflemen. Eight months after Kennedy died,

2290
01:56:25,480 --> 01:56:28,200
Speaker 2: the magazine had even added a new statement to its masthead,

2291
01:56:28,360 --> 01:56:30,440
Speaker 2: the strength of the NRA, and therefore the ability to

2292
01:56:30,440 --> 01:56:33,839
Speaker 2: accomplish its objects and purposes, depends entirely upon the support

2293
01:56:33,880 --> 01:56:36,040
Speaker 2: of loyal Americans who believe in the right to keep

2294
01:56:36,040 --> 01:56:38,960
Speaker 2: and bear arms. And a lot of this push is

2295
01:56:39,000 --> 01:56:41,640
Speaker 2: coming at the direction of Harlan Carter, who writes stuff

2296
01:56:41,680 --> 01:56:44,240
Speaker 2: for American Riflemen and who is a big believer that

2297
01:56:44,320 --> 01:56:51,080
Speaker 2: the NRA needs to be a Second Amendment advocacy organization. Yeah, yeah,

2298
01:56:51,120 --> 01:56:53,560
Speaker 2: And that's again, that's different from what they had always

2299
01:56:53,600 --> 01:56:56,640
Speaker 2: been pro gun because obviously it's the NRA, right, But

2300
01:56:56,960 --> 01:56:58,600
Speaker 2: when you look at what they're doing in thirty four,

2301
01:56:59,520 --> 01:57:02,600
Speaker 2: they're not advocating for the Second Amendment. They're advocating for

2302
01:57:02,760 --> 01:57:05,440
Speaker 2: what they see as sportsmen, right, and obviously there's problems

2303
01:57:05,440 --> 01:57:07,680
Speaker 2: with that. It's based heavily on like the desire of

2304
01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:10,839
Speaker 2: rich people to be heavily armed. But they're they're arguing

2305
01:57:10,880 --> 01:57:14,360
Speaker 2: for sportsmen as opposed to Carter wants to turn it

2306
01:57:14,400 --> 01:57:17,720
Speaker 2: into an advocacy organization for this thing. This this this

2307
01:57:17,880 --> 01:57:20,400
Speaker 2: idea of the Second Amendment. And when you do something

2308
01:57:20,480 --> 01:57:22,720
Speaker 2: like that, number one, if you if you kind of

2309
01:57:22,760 --> 01:57:25,160
Speaker 2: are an essentialist and you claim that this is like

2310
01:57:25,200 --> 01:57:29,200
Speaker 2: there's this kind of inherent, timeless, essential interpretation of this rule,

2311
01:57:29,360 --> 01:57:32,800
Speaker 2: and that's your your guiding light. There's not any ability

2312
01:57:32,800 --> 01:57:34,800
Speaker 2: to compromise there, right, Like you have to be kind

2313
01:57:34,800 --> 01:57:36,040
Speaker 2: of a fundamentalist about.

2314
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:38,200
Speaker 3: It, right, It doesn't matter if a president was just

2315
01:57:38,520 --> 01:57:41,160
Speaker 3: marked yeah, in front of everyone in Dallas.

2316
01:57:41,320 --> 01:57:42,720
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, you have to be like.

2317
01:57:42,760 --> 01:57:46,600
Speaker 3: Sorry, the law's the law, and this is uh, you know,

2318
01:57:47,040 --> 01:57:48,440
Speaker 3: this is my interpretation of it.

2319
01:57:48,760 --> 01:57:53,480
Speaker 2: And and and Carter understands. Again he's a very smart guy.

2320
01:57:53,520 --> 01:57:55,800
Speaker 2: What he'd done with the border patrol shows he understands

2321
01:57:55,800 --> 01:58:00,680
Speaker 2: how the media works. He understands how to advocate for

2322
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:05,560
Speaker 2: white supremacy without advocating for white supremacy, right, And so

2323
01:58:05,600 --> 01:58:07,360
Speaker 2: he knows that it's not just enough to say that

2324
01:58:07,400 --> 01:58:09,600
Speaker 2: you support gun ownership. And I'm going to continue with

2325
01:58:09,600 --> 01:58:12,200
Speaker 2: a quote from Buckley here. In order for there to

2326
01:58:12,240 --> 01:58:14,200
Speaker 2: be good guys with guns, there had to be an

2327
01:58:14,200 --> 01:58:18,080
Speaker 2: opposing force. The NRA and many lawmakers that opposing force

2328
01:58:18,160 --> 01:58:21,920
Speaker 2: was usually black Now this gets into the aspect of

2329
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:23,920
Speaker 2: the gun control push. Again. There's an aspect that's just

2330
01:58:23,960 --> 01:58:27,040
Speaker 2: based in these assassinations that's not at all based in racism.

2331
01:58:27,240 --> 01:58:29,839
Speaker 2: And then there's an aspect that's based on the Watts riots.

2332
01:58:29,920 --> 01:58:34,200
Speaker 2: So in nineteen sixty five, the LAPD beats a black

2333
01:58:34,280 --> 01:58:37,400
Speaker 2: man named Marquette Fry with a baton during a traffic

2334
01:58:37,400 --> 01:58:41,880
Speaker 2: stop and protests erupt. It becomes an insurrection and spreads

2335
01:58:41,920 --> 01:58:45,080
Speaker 2: throughout the country. The militaries eventually called in to augment

2336
01:58:45,120 --> 01:58:48,000
Speaker 2: and overwhelmed LAPD. This is part of what jump starts

2337
01:58:48,040 --> 01:58:51,720
Speaker 2: the War on Crime, a period of largely racist gun

2338
01:58:51,920 --> 01:58:54,600
Speaker 2: or crime bills that culminate with the whole super predator

2339
01:58:54,640 --> 01:58:57,800
Speaker 2: panic that Biden is famous for. And the NRA huge

2340
01:58:57,800 --> 01:59:01,960
Speaker 2: supporters of crime bills. Anti gun control support crime bills. Right,

2341
01:59:02,040 --> 01:59:04,040
Speaker 2: So you see what what they're doing here is you

2342
01:59:04,120 --> 01:59:06,760
Speaker 2: have some folks, because people are during the Wats riots

2343
01:59:06,840 --> 01:59:10,000
Speaker 2: using guns to fight the LAPD, and so there are

2344
01:59:10,080 --> 01:59:13,520
Speaker 2: like and this this is kind of there. There's pushes.

2345
01:59:13,520 --> 01:59:15,760
Speaker 2: This is what starts Some of the momentum for gun

2346
01:59:15,760 --> 01:59:18,760
Speaker 2: control in California comes from this, right, But more than that,

2347
01:59:18,800 --> 01:59:22,040
Speaker 2: what the NRA looks at is they see these armed

2348
01:59:22,040 --> 01:59:24,680
Speaker 2: black people carrying out an uprising, and they're like, well,

2349
01:59:25,880 --> 01:59:29,680
Speaker 2: we can take away focus on guns and on legislating

2350
01:59:29,720 --> 01:59:34,800
Speaker 2: guns by focusing on legislating to criminalize black people, right right,

2351
01:59:35,160 --> 01:59:38,480
Speaker 2: And that's what Harlan Carter realizes, like, well, this is something,

2352
01:59:38,520 --> 01:59:40,520
Speaker 2: this is the business the NRA needs to be in.

2353
01:59:41,080 --> 01:59:44,480
Speaker 2: And also like, this is the business of like arming

2354
01:59:44,560 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 2: the police, arguing that, like because that's where you know,

2355
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:50,640
Speaker 2: that's where the good guy with a gun argument starts, right,

2356
01:59:50,800 --> 01:59:53,080
Speaker 2: is the idea that like you need to the police

2357
01:59:53,120 --> 01:59:55,000
Speaker 2: need to have more and more weapons to deal with

2358
01:59:55,040 --> 01:59:58,560
Speaker 2: today's like dangerous heavily armed criminals, right yeah.

2359
01:59:58,600 --> 02:00:03,880
Speaker 3: And also the guns don't kill people this racial group

2360
02:00:03,920 --> 02:00:04,760
Speaker 3: that I do not, like.

2361
02:00:04,800 --> 02:00:07,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, which is an argument you still see

2362
02:00:07,040 --> 02:00:10,480
Speaker 2: made today. There's just a fucking Republican congressional candidate who

2363
02:00:10,520 --> 02:00:13,440
Speaker 2: is arguing that, like America doesn't have a gun violence problem,

2364
02:00:13,440 --> 02:00:15,720
Speaker 2: black people have a gother something like that, right, Like,

2365
02:00:16,040 --> 02:00:18,320
Speaker 2: this is an old argument, and Harlan Carter is the

2366
02:00:18,360 --> 02:00:22,040
Speaker 2: one who first figures out how to make it right. So,

2367
02:00:22,200 --> 02:00:24,360
Speaker 2: two years after the Watts Riots, the members of the

2368
02:00:24,360 --> 02:00:28,040
Speaker 2: Black Panther Party start assembling and openly carrying firearms, which

2369
02:00:28,080 --> 02:00:30,080
Speaker 2: is lawful at the time. They would assemble with guns

2370
02:00:30,080 --> 02:00:32,480
Speaker 2: and they would audit police during traffic stops to ensure

2371
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:35,200
Speaker 2: that cops did not abuse members of the public. One

2372
02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:38,640
Speaker 2: could argue this is in some ways closer to an

2373
02:00:38,640 --> 02:00:44,280
Speaker 2: originalist interpretation of the Second than anything today. Now, their

2374
02:00:44,360 --> 02:00:48,280
Speaker 2: activism scares the fuck out of white people, and again

2375
02:00:49,040 --> 02:00:54,560
Speaker 2: white people who are not pro gun right right, And

2376
02:00:54,640 --> 02:00:57,840
Speaker 2: we're gonna we're gonna chat about all of that, and

2377
02:00:57,880 --> 02:01:00,760
Speaker 2: we're gonna chat about my favorite press and Matt, I know,

2378
02:01:00,800 --> 02:01:05,000
Speaker 2: your favorite president, Ronald Reagan, star of Bedtime for Bonzo,

2379
02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:06,800
Speaker 2: Love Him, Star.

2380
02:01:06,800 --> 02:01:10,480
Speaker 3: The Monkey Movie. Yeah, those McCarthy.

2381
02:01:10,680 --> 02:01:14,240
Speaker 2: Here. We we owed Ronald Reagan a lot, including the

2382
02:01:14,240 --> 02:01:17,040
Speaker 2: beginning of the career of my favorite musician, John Hinckley Jr.

2383
02:01:17,120 --> 02:01:20,760
Speaker 2: Oh so good, dude. You got to get his mixtapes,

2384
02:01:21,320 --> 02:01:24,120
Speaker 2: like his early stuff better. But he's still really cranking,

2385
02:01:24,240 --> 02:01:25,800
Speaker 2: cranking out some solid things, you know.

2386
02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:27,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, his early stuff is.

2387
02:01:28,160 --> 02:01:33,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, his early stuff. I'm unbelievable, unbelievable. Number one with

2388
02:01:33,680 --> 02:01:40,520
Speaker 2: a bullet. Here's here's here's our ats. Oh we're back,

2389
02:01:41,720 --> 02:01:43,880
Speaker 2: and you know, I just wanted to give a special

2390
02:01:43,880 --> 02:01:47,960
Speaker 2: statement from our sponsors that they completely support the career

2391
02:01:48,000 --> 02:01:53,080
Speaker 2: of John Hinckley Junior. Yeah, and uh, I don't know, Sophie,

2392
02:01:53,560 --> 02:01:57,440
Speaker 2: how do we we You're shaking your head. Probably shouldn't good.

2393
02:01:58,080 --> 02:01:59,680
Speaker 1: It's it's just a boring bit.

2394
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:02,680
Speaker 2: It's a boring bit. You think it's boring that John

2395
02:02:02,760 --> 02:02:05,080
Speaker 2: Hinckley Junior is making a comeback to her?

2396
02:02:05,160 --> 02:02:09,000
Speaker 3: Now, Yeah, he's he's touring and he's it mm hmm.

2397
02:02:09,880 --> 02:02:13,200
Speaker 3: It's he's got a guitar. And it says this machine

2398
02:02:13,480 --> 02:02:14,600
Speaker 3: almost kills.

2399
02:02:14,360 --> 02:02:19,400
Speaker 2: Fascist, close to killing a fascist. This machine shot the

2400
02:02:19,440 --> 02:02:23,040
Speaker 2: sight of an armored limousine with and it bounced and

2401
02:02:23,120 --> 02:02:26,800
Speaker 2: managed to penetrate a fascist chest cavity.

2402
02:02:28,320 --> 02:02:31,200
Speaker 3: This machine loves Jodie Foster and almost kill.

2403
02:02:31,560 --> 02:02:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, this machine heads was very creepy. She did say

2404
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:41,280
Speaker 2: she was impressed. She should be. I mean it is impressive, right, yeah, man,

2405
02:02:42,080 --> 02:02:45,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, mixed bag whatever, it was probably enough

2406
02:02:45,640 --> 02:02:51,360
Speaker 2: John jokes. Look, he did he did shoot Ronald Reagan.

2407
02:02:51,520 --> 02:02:53,800
Speaker 3: He did unarguably mm hmm.

2408
02:02:54,480 --> 02:02:55,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Evans.

2409
02:02:56,760 --> 02:03:02,520
Speaker 2: So so you get the Black Panthers start assembling with

2410
02:03:02,520 --> 02:03:04,560
Speaker 2: guns in public, and this scares the shit out of

2411
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:08,800
Speaker 2: both kind of the progressive liberal crowd in California and

2412
02:03:09,120 --> 02:03:13,200
Speaker 2: conservatives in California, and so all of California gets on

2413
02:03:13,200 --> 02:03:16,520
Speaker 2: board the idea of banning the open carry of firearms,

2414
02:03:17,360 --> 02:03:22,440
Speaker 2: and the NRA happily endorses the measure. The Black Panthers

2415
02:03:22,400 --> 02:03:25,240
Speaker 2: assemble with their guns in the Capitol on one of

2416
02:03:25,240 --> 02:03:27,160
Speaker 2: the last days it would remain legal to do so

2417
02:03:27,520 --> 02:03:30,560
Speaker 2: it's described in local news as an invasion, even though

2418
02:03:30,600 --> 02:03:33,720
Speaker 2: again it was people legally protesting in a way that

2419
02:03:33,800 --> 02:03:35,160
Speaker 2: was not again.

2420
02:03:35,160 --> 02:03:39,160
Speaker 3: Whatever for the exact rights that the same you know,

2421
02:03:39,400 --> 02:03:41,600
Speaker 3: like white wackadoos do now.

2422
02:03:41,720 --> 02:03:45,560
Speaker 2: But again, fucking Harlan Carter totally on board with criminalizing

2423
02:03:45,560 --> 02:03:48,120
Speaker 2: this as is again Ronald Reagan is the governor at.

2424
02:03:48,000 --> 02:03:49,040
Speaker 3: The governor of California.

2425
02:03:49,120 --> 02:03:52,960
Speaker 2: Reagan's totally against. So yeah, some of these guys get

2426
02:03:53,040 --> 02:03:56,400
Speaker 2: arrested during their protest, and Sacramento as they are handcuffed,

2427
02:03:56,440 --> 02:03:59,680
Speaker 2: Bobby Seal read from their executive mandate, which protested quote

2428
02:03:59,760 --> 02:04:03,360
Speaker 2: the racist California legislature which is now considering legislation aimed

2429
02:04:03,360 --> 02:04:07,160
Speaker 2: at keeping black people disarmed and powerless. The measure passed,

2430
02:04:07,640 --> 02:04:10,040
Speaker 2: and it laid the groundwork for the extensive gun control

2431
02:04:10,120 --> 02:04:13,200
Speaker 2: that the state of California now enjoys to this day.

2432
02:04:13,200 --> 02:04:17,120
Speaker 2: Those laws primarily impact poor black people. Rich white folks

2433
02:04:17,160 --> 02:04:22,080
Speaker 2: can acquire concealed weapon permits very easily. You just have

2434
02:04:22,160 --> 02:04:23,360
Speaker 2: to be able to have a second home in a

2435
02:04:23,360 --> 02:04:25,440
Speaker 2: place like San Bernardino, and you can get the license

2436
02:04:25,440 --> 02:04:28,440
Speaker 2: to carry a concealed gun in the state of California.

2437
02:04:28,520 --> 02:04:30,880
Speaker 2: They can also purchase to so California. One of the

2438
02:04:30,920 --> 02:04:33,960
Speaker 2: things that they have is a handgun roster, right, so,

2439
02:04:34,160 --> 02:04:36,320
Speaker 2: the only handguns you can buy in the state of

2440
02:04:36,320 --> 02:04:40,680
Speaker 2: California are specifically ones that have been approved from the state. However,

2441
02:04:41,160 --> 02:04:43,760
Speaker 2: you can bring handguns into the state if you move there,

2442
02:04:43,800 --> 02:04:46,160
Speaker 2: as long as they don't have an illegal you know,

2443
02:04:46,240 --> 02:04:48,160
Speaker 2: as long as you don't bring magazines with higher than

2444
02:04:48,200 --> 02:04:49,920
Speaker 2: a ten round capacity, you can bring those into the

2445
02:04:49,960 --> 02:04:52,080
Speaker 2: state and then you can have them or you can

2446
02:04:52,120 --> 02:04:54,840
Speaker 2: sell them to people through an FFL. And if you

2447
02:04:54,840 --> 02:04:57,120
Speaker 2: are a police officer, you can buy any kind of

2448
02:04:57,200 --> 02:04:59,080
Speaker 2: gun you want and you can sell it to whoever

2449
02:04:59,120 --> 02:05:02,080
Speaker 2: you want. So is a massive industry in California of

2450
02:05:02,160 --> 02:05:05,360
Speaker 2: police officers selling handguns to people that are illegal in

2451
02:05:05,400 --> 02:05:07,600
Speaker 2: the state of California to buy and less a police

2452
02:05:07,600 --> 02:05:10,480
Speaker 2: officer sells them to you for twice the normal price. Anyway,

2453
02:05:10,600 --> 02:05:12,080
Speaker 2: whole bunch of sketchy shit happens.

2454
02:05:12,160 --> 02:05:14,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a nice side hustle for the cops, you know,

2455
02:05:15,400 --> 02:05:18,040
Speaker 3: I mean because hey, there was a gig economy back

2456
02:05:18,080 --> 02:05:21,160
Speaker 3: then too. A lot of us are uber drivers slash

2457
02:05:21,160 --> 02:05:23,040
Speaker 3: gun salesman now, so I get it.

2458
02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:25,760
Speaker 2: And it's one of those things. There's a number of

2459
02:05:25,760 --> 02:05:29,320
Speaker 2: things about, including like waiting periods and stuff in California

2460
02:05:29,360 --> 02:05:31,560
Speaker 2: that there's a strong argument to be made in favor of.

2461
02:05:32,480 --> 02:05:34,800
Speaker 2: But this is where a lot of it starts, and

2462
02:05:34,840 --> 02:05:39,400
Speaker 2: it never entirely gets divorced from this thing of Like again,

2463
02:05:39,440 --> 02:05:40,800
Speaker 2: you can look at the same thing in the nineteen

2464
02:05:40,840 --> 02:05:42,720
Speaker 2: thirty four NFA of like, well, no, we want to

2465
02:05:43,160 --> 02:05:45,440
Speaker 2: we don't want rich people to be affected, right.

2466
02:05:46,200 --> 02:05:49,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, anyway, you know they banned what is that,

2467
02:05:49,880 --> 02:05:51,320
Speaker 3: the Saturday Night specials?

2468
02:05:51,320 --> 02:05:53,280
Speaker 2: Like any like, oh, we're getting to that. That's where

2469
02:05:53,280 --> 02:05:55,520
Speaker 2: the handgun That's where the handgun roster starts though, yes,

2470
02:05:55,600 --> 02:05:58,920
Speaker 2: with the Saturday Night special. Yeah, but we're we'll get

2471
02:05:58,920 --> 02:06:01,880
Speaker 2: to that, don't worry. So Harlan Carter's support of an

2472
02:06:01,920 --> 02:06:04,640
Speaker 2: individual right to bear arms was not out of principled

2473
02:06:04,680 --> 02:06:07,760
Speaker 2: belief that all Americans deserve to defend themselves, or out

2474
02:06:07,760 --> 02:06:10,400
Speaker 2: of a desire to even check governmental power again, he

2475
02:06:10,480 --> 02:06:14,480
Speaker 2: militarized the border patrol. Instead, he believed that guns were

2476
02:06:14,480 --> 02:06:16,720
Speaker 2: a tool to enforce white supremacy, and he wanted to

2477
02:06:16,800 --> 02:06:19,040
Speaker 2: ensure that white people maintained the right to do this,

2478
02:06:19,400 --> 02:06:22,400
Speaker 2: and backing California's open carry ban, he was engaging in

2479
02:06:22,440 --> 02:06:25,480
Speaker 2: an intelligence strategy. You draw attention away from guns and

2480
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:28,480
Speaker 2: you focus on who is carrying them. This is the

2481
02:06:28,520 --> 02:06:30,760
Speaker 2: origin of the quote guns don't kill people, People don't

2482
02:06:30,840 --> 02:06:33,160
Speaker 2: kill people argument, But when Harlan made it, the people

2483
02:06:33,200 --> 02:06:36,640
Speaker 2: were explicitly coded as black. I'm going to quote from

2484
02:06:36,640 --> 02:06:40,400
Speaker 2: Epic magazine now. The same year, American Riflemen published an

2485
02:06:40,480 --> 02:06:44,480
Speaker 2: editorial titled Who Guards America's Homes? It depicted protests like

2486
02:06:44,560 --> 02:06:47,680
Speaker 2: Watts as mob violence. Who then supports the police? Who

2487
02:06:47,680 --> 02:06:50,520
Speaker 2: then guards the doors of American homes from senseless savagery

2488
02:06:50,520 --> 02:06:54,240
Speaker 2: and pillaging. It read with home front safeguards spotty and uncertain.

2489
02:06:54,320 --> 02:06:58,080
Speaker 2: The armed citizen represents a potential community stabilizer. Right.

2490
02:06:59,280 --> 02:07:03,640
Speaker 3: Nothing is more stable stabilizing for a community than a

2491
02:07:03,680 --> 02:07:05,040
Speaker 3: bunch of armed white people.

2492
02:07:05,560 --> 02:07:08,000
Speaker 2: Well, and he's he's very much making the writtenhouse argument here, right,

2493
02:07:08,560 --> 02:07:12,360
Speaker 2: armed citizen supports the police. The Black panthers are making

2494
02:07:12,560 --> 02:07:14,880
Speaker 2: what I might argue is more of an originalist interpretation,

2495
02:07:15,120 --> 02:07:19,360
Speaker 2: which is the armed citizen protects the community from government overreach.

2496
02:07:19,440 --> 02:07:22,240
Speaker 2: That's the Black panthers. He's saying, the armed citizen aids

2497
02:07:22,280 --> 02:07:25,640
Speaker 2: the police in enforcing white supremacy, right, right, that's the

2498
02:07:25,760 --> 02:07:27,480
Speaker 2: argument being made by the NRA here.

2499
02:07:27,640 --> 02:07:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's funny because like you know, obviously, you know,

2500
02:07:32,160 --> 02:07:37,000
Speaker 3: you do have your you know, right wing insurrectionists, militias and.

2501
02:07:37,000 --> 02:07:37,640
Speaker 2: Shit like that.

2502
02:07:37,920 --> 02:07:41,240
Speaker 3: But for the most part, what is being supported is

2503
02:07:41,400 --> 02:07:45,640
Speaker 3: like arming the suburbs, you know, and anyone who supports

2504
02:07:45,760 --> 02:07:48,400
Speaker 3: the police should be armed in anyone who in any

2505
02:07:48,440 --> 02:07:53,520
Speaker 3: ways against it shouldn't be. And that is uh, you know, yeah.

2506
02:07:53,320 --> 02:07:54,120
Speaker 2: It is a problem.

2507
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:56,400
Speaker 3: It's a issues.

2508
02:07:56,800 --> 02:07:59,600
Speaker 2: It's a problem that deserves a more complex series of

2509
02:07:59,640 --> 02:08:04,320
Speaker 2: solutions then to get suggested in debates over this. But

2510
02:08:04,400 --> 02:08:09,600
Speaker 2: that's a separate topic. So after RFK and Martin Luther

2511
02:08:09,680 --> 02:08:12,960
Speaker 2: King Junior are murdered in nineteen sixty eight, Senator Thomas

2512
02:08:13,000 --> 02:08:15,960
Speaker 2: Dodd reintroduces the Gun Control Act to Congress. This has

2513
02:08:16,000 --> 02:08:18,480
Speaker 2: been put it through it for it a couple of times.

2514
02:08:19,200 --> 02:08:21,320
Speaker 2: He puts it through again in nineteen sixty eight after

2515
02:08:21,320 --> 02:08:24,840
Speaker 2: those assassinations, and the Gun Control Act is intended to

2516
02:08:24,880 --> 02:08:29,520
Speaker 2: ban the interstate sale of guns, ban their sale to children,

2517
02:08:30,520 --> 02:08:35,000
Speaker 2: to convicted felons, and because of some bigotry mental defectives. Right.

2518
02:08:35,040 --> 02:08:37,640
Speaker 2: So again, like all of these laws, there's like, Okay,

2519
02:08:37,680 --> 02:08:39,000
Speaker 2: you don't want people to just be able to like

2520
02:08:39,040 --> 02:08:42,240
Speaker 2: ship guns through a mail order catalog across the country.

2521
02:08:42,320 --> 02:08:44,600
Speaker 2: I can get on board there, right, Probably shouldn't be

2522
02:08:44,600 --> 02:08:46,920
Speaker 2: selling them to children or you know, convicted, although I

2523
02:08:46,960 --> 02:08:49,080
Speaker 2: have issues with like who becomes a felon right, Like

2524
02:08:49,440 --> 02:08:51,520
Speaker 2: he's got a violent history. Sure that makes sense. You

2525
02:08:51,520 --> 02:08:54,920
Speaker 2: don't want somebody who's like a convicted rapist buying guns.

2526
02:08:55,280 --> 02:08:57,320
Speaker 2: And then like and mental defectives, well, how the hell

2527
02:08:57,320 --> 02:08:58,120
Speaker 2: do you define that?

2528
02:08:58,200 --> 02:08:58,360
Speaker 1: Now?

2529
02:08:59,160 --> 02:09:04,640
Speaker 2: Right now, I've got some concerns. But this this law again,

2530
02:09:04,680 --> 02:09:06,960
Speaker 2: there's a lot that's very reasonable in here, and the

2531
02:09:07,080 --> 02:09:10,920
Speaker 2: nra rallies against it in huge numbers. Harlan Carter and

2532
02:09:10,960 --> 02:09:12,640
Speaker 2: his partner in the air and they are not in

2533
02:09:13,120 --> 02:09:15,280
Speaker 2: they don't have an issue with the mental defective's part, right,

2534
02:09:15,320 --> 02:09:18,560
Speaker 2: that's not the thing that's a problem to them. This

2535
02:09:18,720 --> 02:09:20,800
Speaker 2: is the first law that causes the NRA to get

2536
02:09:20,840 --> 02:09:24,480
Speaker 2: like hugely political. And Harlan Carter again, there's this war

2537
02:09:24,600 --> 02:09:27,400
Speaker 2: still within the NRA that hasn't resolved between the old

2538
02:09:27,440 --> 02:09:30,120
Speaker 2: Guard and the new Guard. Carter, because he has a

2539
02:09:30,160 --> 02:09:34,840
Speaker 2: lot of influence in American Rifleman magazine, he enlists like

2540
02:09:34,920 --> 02:09:37,120
Speaker 2: the people that he's been seeding the NRA with these

2541
02:09:37,160 --> 02:09:39,160
Speaker 2: New Guard folks to start like coming up with a

2542
02:09:39,200 --> 02:09:43,040
Speaker 2: series of blistering editorials in American Rifleman magazine that are

2543
02:09:43,240 --> 02:09:45,880
Speaker 2: urging people to write letters to Congress to like this

2544
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:48,240
Speaker 2: is the first real concerted lobbying campaign.

2545
02:09:48,720 --> 02:09:50,600
Speaker 3: And I'm trying to figure out what which part of

2546
02:09:50,640 --> 02:09:53,480
Speaker 3: it it is? Is it the children part? Is it

2547
02:09:53,520 --> 02:09:58,520
Speaker 3: the fact that they're like, no children is neutral racially neutral,

2548
02:09:58,600 --> 02:10:00,200
Speaker 3: So they're like wait wait wait wait wait wait, you

2549
02:10:00,240 --> 02:10:01,400
Speaker 3: can't do that, or what is it?

2550
02:10:01,680 --> 02:10:03,440
Speaker 2: A big part of it this is an attempting to

2551
02:10:03,600 --> 02:10:06,120
Speaker 2: establish like if you're buying a gun, you have to

2552
02:10:06,160 --> 02:10:08,400
Speaker 2: do it through there has to be like this this

2553
02:10:08,520 --> 02:10:11,200
Speaker 2: legal process, Like it can't just be a dude has

2554
02:10:11,240 --> 02:10:14,800
Speaker 2: a gun and I get it right. And that's that's

2555
02:10:14,880 --> 02:10:16,840
Speaker 2: the big that's the center of the problem, right, is

2556
02:10:16,840 --> 02:10:18,920
Speaker 2: the idea that the federal government is now going to

2557
02:10:18,920 --> 02:10:23,040
Speaker 2: be involved inherent like in all legal gun purchases, which

2558
02:10:23,080 --> 02:10:25,840
Speaker 2: is obviously not what the Gun Control Act does. There's

2559
02:10:25,880 --> 02:10:27,880
Speaker 2: these things called face to face sales in a lot

2560
02:10:27,920 --> 02:10:30,400
Speaker 2: of states where if you're not a gun dealer, you

2561
02:10:30,440 --> 02:10:33,320
Speaker 2: can sell a gun to anybody without there being any

2562
02:10:33,400 --> 02:10:35,120
Speaker 2: kind of a background check. That is still the law

2563
02:10:35,200 --> 02:10:39,520
Speaker 2: in a lot of the country, but most gun purchases

2564
02:10:39,560 --> 02:10:41,120
Speaker 2: you have to do you have to fill out what's

2565
02:10:41,120 --> 02:10:42,880
Speaker 2: called a Form four four seven three, which is and

2566
02:10:43,040 --> 02:10:44,840
Speaker 2: you have to have like a federal background check. Right,

2567
02:10:45,480 --> 02:10:47,520
Speaker 2: and the government gets involved, right, That's that's the thing

2568
02:10:47,520 --> 02:10:50,040
Speaker 2: that they're scared about. And again, you can't divorce this

2569
02:10:50,120 --> 02:10:52,240
Speaker 2: from like the John Birch Society, from all of these

2570
02:10:52,280 --> 02:10:56,600
Speaker 2: panics about communism, about like, you know, the government getting

2571
02:10:56,640 --> 02:11:00,400
Speaker 2: increasingly centralized. And I guess you might argue that that's

2572
02:11:00,440 --> 02:11:03,400
Speaker 2: also closer to an originalist interpretation of the Second Amendment.

2573
02:11:03,960 --> 02:11:11,400
Speaker 2: But anyway, so the NRA, you know, Harlan Carter urges

2574
02:11:11,520 --> 02:11:14,360
Speaker 2: like helps to organize this massive campaign of resistance against

2575
02:11:14,400 --> 02:11:18,000
Speaker 2: the Gun Control Act, and it's not popular with many

2576
02:11:18,040 --> 02:11:20,680
Speaker 2: of the folks running the NRA at the time, and

2577
02:11:20,760 --> 02:11:24,000
Speaker 2: again the way they've done things before, Congress would suggest

2578
02:11:24,040 --> 02:11:26,280
Speaker 2: a bill, the NRA would usually have some issues with it,

2579
02:11:26,280 --> 02:11:28,040
Speaker 2: but they would like make those issues clear. Then they'd

2580
02:11:28,040 --> 02:11:29,720
Speaker 2: sit down and like hash something out, as they did

2581
02:11:29,720 --> 02:11:32,400
Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty four. So the vice president of the NRA,

2582
02:11:32,520 --> 02:11:35,480
Speaker 2: a guy named Franklin Orth, figures, that's what we're going

2583
02:11:35,520 --> 02:11:38,080
Speaker 2: to do. Right. He doesn't want the organization to take

2584
02:11:38,120 --> 02:11:40,840
Speaker 2: like a really public political stance because that's kind of

2585
02:11:40,840 --> 02:11:44,720
Speaker 2: permanently alienated from like one party, right, And that's not

2586
02:11:44,840 --> 02:11:46,400
Speaker 2: his goal with the NRA. He doesn't want it to

2587
02:11:46,400 --> 02:11:51,800
Speaker 2: be like a Republican or a democratic thing. Short sighted idiot. Yeah, So,

2588
02:11:52,720 --> 02:11:55,000
Speaker 2: for what would be the last time, because again Orth

2589
02:11:55,040 --> 02:11:57,560
Speaker 2: and his people are still in charge of the NRA broadly,

2590
02:11:57,880 --> 02:12:00,520
Speaker 2: the NRA sits down with Franklin Dodd and they reach

2591
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:03,680
Speaker 2: a compromise on the bill and they you know, they

2592
02:12:04,040 --> 02:12:06,720
Speaker 2: alter it and what not to be a little bit whatever.

2593
02:12:07,120 --> 02:12:09,360
Speaker 2: Orth describes it as a law. The sportsmen of America

2594
02:12:09,400 --> 02:12:13,000
Speaker 2: can live with the fact that anything had been passed

2595
02:12:13,040 --> 02:12:16,640
Speaker 2: at all. Enrages the base that Carter has put together,

2596
02:12:16,920 --> 02:12:18,960
Speaker 2: and they respond with a flood of hate mail so

2597
02:12:19,040 --> 02:12:23,080
Speaker 2: voluminous it nearly makes Orth resign. It becomes increasingly clear

2598
02:12:23,120 --> 02:12:26,360
Speaker 2: that the Old Guard did not speak for the increasingly

2599
02:12:26,440 --> 02:12:30,840
Speaker 2: radicalized masses of the NRA. And these again, these people

2600
02:12:30,880 --> 02:12:34,280
Speaker 2: are they're they're frightened of black mobs of the Watts Riots, right,

2601
02:12:34,560 --> 02:12:37,440
Speaker 2: They're also have been stoked by Carter and his lackeys

2602
02:12:37,480 --> 02:12:40,680
Speaker 2: with like fears of Communist infiltration and invasion. This is

2603
02:12:40,720 --> 02:12:42,680
Speaker 2: all kind of coming together as part of it. And

2604
02:12:42,680 --> 02:12:45,200
Speaker 2: obviously a lot of the right in this time sees

2605
02:12:45,240 --> 02:12:46,960
Speaker 2: the Watts Riots is like it must have been the

2606
02:12:46,960 --> 02:12:47,680
Speaker 2: Soviet Union.

2607
02:12:50,200 --> 02:12:53,200
Speaker 3: There's is like a synonymous like you know, any kind

2608
02:12:53,200 --> 02:12:56,640
Speaker 3: of black uprising synonymous with communism at this point.

2609
02:12:56,760 --> 02:12:59,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, So kind of what you're seeing here is the

2610
02:12:59,200 --> 02:13:01,880
Speaker 2: radical chunk of the NRA doesn't want, like once to

2611
02:13:01,960 --> 02:13:05,200
Speaker 2: oppose any like this law under all conditions. Right, there's

2612
02:13:05,240 --> 02:13:08,160
Speaker 2: no way in which they'll be okay with this, and

2613
02:13:08,240 --> 02:13:11,000
Speaker 2: they they lose the fight to the Old Guard, who

2614
02:13:11,280 --> 02:13:15,320
Speaker 2: works with the government to pass this law. But the

2615
02:13:15,440 --> 02:13:18,400
Speaker 2: New Guard, I guess you New Guard isn't really a turn.

2616
02:13:18,440 --> 02:13:23,360
Speaker 2: But like the Harlan, Carter's faction becomes it starts to

2617
02:13:23,400 --> 02:13:25,440
Speaker 2: become more dominant as a result of this, because it

2618
02:13:25,480 --> 02:13:28,960
Speaker 2: pisses off so many people, and because it's so much

2619
02:13:29,040 --> 02:13:32,320
Speaker 2: easier to electrify people with like threats of the communist

2620
02:13:32,320 --> 02:13:34,760
Speaker 2: government is coming to like take your guns to stop.

2621
02:13:34,840 --> 02:13:36,600
Speaker 2: You have to be able to protect your family against

2622
02:13:36,640 --> 02:13:39,200
Speaker 2: these dangerous black like that. That's easier to rile people

2623
02:13:39,240 --> 02:13:41,360
Speaker 2: up for than we should work with the government to

2624
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:45,880
Speaker 2: come to like sensible you know, accommodations, right, that's compromise,

2625
02:13:46,320 --> 02:13:49,480
Speaker 2: that's not a selling point, right. So because of what

2626
02:13:49,560 --> 02:13:52,520
Speaker 2: Carter builds here over this fight, membership in the NRA

2627
02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:55,720
Speaker 2: soares to over a million people for the first time

2628
02:13:55,720 --> 02:13:59,320
Speaker 2: in the association's history. So this is part of what

2629
02:13:59,440 --> 02:14:02,120
Speaker 2: scares the old guard and makes them silo. Harlan Carter

2630
02:14:02,240 --> 02:14:04,920
Speaker 2: off to the ISLA, which is the NRA's first registered

2631
02:14:04,960 --> 02:14:07,640
Speaker 2: lobby and when they make this lobbying group for him

2632
02:14:07,680 --> 02:14:09,880
Speaker 2: to run, they don't like fund it, so he's going

2633
02:14:09,920 --> 02:14:11,879
Speaker 2: to have to raise his own money to do anything.

2634
02:14:12,120 --> 02:14:14,560
Speaker 2: And their hope is that, like, this guy's dangerous, but

2635
02:14:14,600 --> 02:14:17,280
Speaker 2: we can't kick him out. So if we give him

2636
02:14:17,280 --> 02:14:19,840
Speaker 2: this lobbying organization but don't give him any money, he's

2637
02:14:19,840 --> 02:14:22,000
Speaker 2: going to have to spend all of his time raising funds,

2638
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:23,920
Speaker 2: and he's not going to be able to like cause

2639
02:14:23,920 --> 02:14:28,320
Speaker 2: any trouble. Sure, this proves to be a bad strategy

2640
02:14:28,400 --> 02:14:31,800
Speaker 2: because Harlan Carter invins the concept of right wing fund raising.

2641
02:14:32,680 --> 02:14:38,640
Speaker 2: Damn it. Yes, the first podcaster. Yeah, he's the first

2642
02:14:38,640 --> 02:14:40,680
Speaker 2: guy to figure out how everything is going to work

2643
02:14:40,720 --> 02:14:42,520
Speaker 2: for right wing fund raising in the future. And he

2644
02:14:42,560 --> 02:14:46,680
Speaker 2: does it because he figures out he uses computers, right, Like,

2645
02:14:46,760 --> 02:14:49,160
Speaker 2: that's the thing he figures out is going to be critical.

2646
02:14:49,200 --> 02:14:52,200
Speaker 2: And I'm going to quote from Aleena Buckley again. Their

2647
02:14:52,240 --> 02:14:54,880
Speaker 2: computer could print eleven hundred lines per minute, letting Carter's

2648
02:14:54,880 --> 02:14:57,160
Speaker 2: team produce thousands of letters addressed to members over a

2649
02:14:57,160 --> 02:14:59,400
Speaker 2: twenty four hour period. It was the latest iteration of

2650
02:14:59,440 --> 02:15:02,760
Speaker 2: a powerful time direct mail. The medium had reached prominence

2651
02:15:02,800 --> 02:15:05,160
Speaker 2: by the early nineteen seventies, when it was first pioneered

2652
02:15:05,160 --> 02:15:08,120
Speaker 2: by Richard Vigeri, who, as a campaign worker had copied

2653
02:15:08,120 --> 02:15:10,000
Speaker 2: down the names and addresses of people who had donated

2654
02:15:10,040 --> 02:15:13,240
Speaker 2: to Burry Goldwater's unsuccessful presidential bid. With that list of

2655
02:15:13,240 --> 02:15:15,680
Speaker 2: Republicans in their addresses as good as the gold bricks

2656
02:15:15,680 --> 02:15:18,760
Speaker 2: deposited at Fort Knox, he once wrote Vigory had developed

2657
02:15:18,760 --> 02:15:21,040
Speaker 2: away for conservatives to reach the people most likely to

2658
02:15:21,080 --> 02:15:24,440
Speaker 2: become coveted single issue voters with the right messaging. Carter

2659
02:15:24,560 --> 02:15:26,360
Speaker 2: hoped to use the tool to drum up support for

2660
02:15:26,400 --> 02:15:30,160
Speaker 2: ila's legislative work. Vigory himself collaborated with Carter to build

2661
02:15:30,200 --> 02:15:32,960
Speaker 2: their database. Iola did all of this under the noses

2662
02:15:32,960 --> 02:15:35,600
Speaker 2: and the shoes of the NRA executives, gaining ground for

2663
02:15:35,640 --> 02:15:38,840
Speaker 2: a hardened line against gun control. I'm building an organization

2664
02:15:38,920 --> 02:15:41,480
Speaker 2: capable of public persuasion, not only in Washington, but in

2665
02:15:41,520 --> 02:15:43,760
Speaker 2: the States, Carter said at the time. We don't know

2666
02:15:43,840 --> 02:15:45,600
Speaker 2: the best way to reach all the people yet, but

2667
02:15:45,640 --> 02:15:46,720
Speaker 2: of course we shall.

2668
02:15:47,640 --> 02:15:51,640
Speaker 3: Ugh so, God damn it. He built a mailing list.

2669
02:15:51,920 --> 02:15:54,120
Speaker 2: He's one of the very first people to do this

2670
02:15:55,600 --> 02:15:58,200
Speaker 2: and is arguably the most successful of anyone in this

2671
02:15:58,240 --> 02:16:02,240
Speaker 2: period to do it. And uh, yeah, that's where we're

2672
02:16:02,240 --> 02:16:05,400
Speaker 2: gonna leave things for today. But first, Matt, you got

2673
02:16:05,400 --> 02:16:06,840
Speaker 2: a mailing list? You want to you want?

2674
02:16:07,120 --> 02:16:11,680
Speaker 3: I got a mailing list. Yeah, it's called Instagram. You

2675
02:16:11,720 --> 02:16:16,360
Speaker 3: can find me there at Matt leap Jokes. Please follow me.

2676
02:16:16,880 --> 02:16:19,520
Speaker 3: And also, hey, if you like the Sopranos, listen to

2677
02:16:19,600 --> 02:16:22,760
Speaker 3: pod yourself a gun and is a rewatch podcast where

2678
02:16:22,800 --> 02:16:25,400
Speaker 3: me and Vince Mancini talk about every episode. We just

2679
02:16:25,440 --> 02:16:29,720
Speaker 3: wrapped it up and it is the greatest and only

2680
02:16:29,760 --> 02:16:33,039
Speaker 3: sopranos podcast in the world. And I would love for

2681
02:16:33,120 --> 02:16:35,080
Speaker 3: y'all to check it out and tell you, well.

2682
02:16:35,120 --> 02:16:37,840
Speaker 2: That's wonderful. I would like to use this time to

2683
02:16:37,879 --> 02:16:42,760
Speaker 2: get everyone to get involved in my fundamentalist right wing

2684
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:48,959
Speaker 2: mailing list NAKA, the National Anti Quartering Association. We're Third

2685
02:16:48,959 --> 02:16:52,240
Speaker 2: Amendment fundamentalists, Matt oh. Not only do I think that

2686
02:16:52,320 --> 02:16:55,039
Speaker 2: soldiers shouldn't be quartered in houses, Yeah, I don't think

2687
02:16:55,040 --> 02:16:57,959
Speaker 2: they should be quartered anywhere. I think soldiers should be

2688
02:16:58,040 --> 02:17:01,360
Speaker 2: kept awake constantly with heavy doses of amphetamines for the

2689
02:17:01,440 --> 02:17:03,840
Speaker 2: direction of the time that they're serving. No quartering of

2690
02:17:03,879 --> 02:17:06,800
Speaker 2: soldiers anywhere, not even on military basis. Keep them in

2691
02:17:06,879 --> 02:17:09,600
Speaker 2: the sea or in the sky on drugs at all times.

2692
02:17:10,280 --> 02:17:15,360
Speaker 2: That's the KNAKA line. Yeah yeah, find fight us online,

2693
02:17:15,360 --> 02:17:17,800
Speaker 2: give us your email, send us money and.

2694
02:17:18,480 --> 02:17:23,000
Speaker 3: Act blue dot com slash anti.

2695
02:17:22,440 --> 02:17:39,039
Speaker 2: No quartering nowhere, Good times, good times? Whats epstein my

2696
02:17:39,520 --> 02:17:40,920
Speaker 2: bar virus?

2697
02:17:41,600 --> 02:17:44,439
Speaker 1: Why was that your intro?

2698
02:17:43,120 --> 02:17:44,680
Speaker 4: Why we?

2699
02:17:45,200 --> 02:17:48,080
Speaker 2: As as with all of our podcasts, this show is

2700
02:17:48,120 --> 02:17:53,760
Speaker 2: sponsored by the epstein bar virus. Have you had mono? No? Well,

2701
02:17:53,760 --> 02:17:58,320
Speaker 2: maybe try it. Maybe try mono. It's good. It might

2702
02:17:58,400 --> 02:18:01,200
Speaker 2: cause multiple sclerosis late in life. There's all sorts of

2703
02:18:01,240 --> 02:18:03,400
Speaker 2: things that money hard to tell, hard to tell.

2704
02:18:03,480 --> 02:18:05,160
Speaker 3: You will know if you had it, if you ever

2705
02:18:05,240 --> 02:18:07,200
Speaker 3: take the Epstein bar exam.

2706
02:18:07,520 --> 02:18:11,320
Speaker 2: That's right, a test you get the rest of the job.

2707
02:18:11,480 --> 02:18:14,200
Speaker 2: You can do it for free on this podcast if

2708
02:18:14,240 --> 02:18:20,480
Speaker 2: you sign up for a week of food. We love

2709
02:18:20,560 --> 02:18:22,080
Speaker 2: the epstein bar virus.

2710
02:18:23,480 --> 02:18:26,720
Speaker 1: You'd just like to make our poor editor bleep.

2711
02:18:26,560 --> 02:18:28,160
Speaker 2: Things I do I do.

2712
02:18:29,480 --> 02:18:31,680
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for him. Chris.

2713
02:18:31,720 --> 02:18:33,879
Speaker 2: Well, once upon a time when we still went to

2714
02:18:33,920 --> 02:18:36,840
Speaker 2: the office, somebody dinged my car. Maybe I'm not one

2715
02:18:36,920 --> 02:18:39,520
Speaker 2: hundred percent sure, but I've decided it was our editor,

2716
02:18:39,879 --> 02:18:41,480
Speaker 2: and this is Chris.

2717
02:18:41,560 --> 02:18:41,880
Speaker 1: It was.

2718
02:18:41,959 --> 02:18:44,040
Speaker 2: You don't know that, Sophie. You don't know what. He

2719
02:18:44,080 --> 02:18:47,920
Speaker 2: didn't come in. You don't know that he didn't do it.

2720
02:18:47,520 --> 02:18:47,880
Speaker 2: You did it?

2721
02:18:47,959 --> 02:18:49,320
Speaker 1: Do you want to know that?

2722
02:18:49,360 --> 02:18:52,200
Speaker 4: I've seen his dogs. His dogs are honest. He would

2723
02:18:52,240 --> 02:18:52,800
Speaker 4: never do that.

2724
02:18:53,320 --> 02:18:57,360
Speaker 2: Well, it was the it was the Union, Chris. You

2725
02:18:57,440 --> 02:19:00,720
Speaker 2: know who it was, and I don't know who it was.

2726
02:19:00,720 --> 02:19:04,440
Speaker 2: It does wrench us back onto topic, which is Harlan

2727
02:19:04,520 --> 02:19:06,959
Speaker 2: Carter and the birth of the National well not the

2728
02:19:07,000 --> 02:19:10,160
Speaker 2: birth of but the rebirth of the like this is

2729
02:19:10,800 --> 02:19:13,039
Speaker 2: it's it's like a racist you know how. Gandalf is

2730
02:19:13,040 --> 02:19:15,640
Speaker 2: like Gandalf the Gray and then he gets reborn as

2731
02:19:15,680 --> 02:19:18,400
Speaker 2: Gandalf the White after fighting a ball rog. The NRA

2732
02:19:18,640 --> 02:19:22,400
Speaker 2: gets rebirthed is a white supremacist organization after fighting the

2733
02:19:22,440 --> 02:19:26,920
Speaker 2: ball rog of the black Panthers assembling legally with guns

2734
02:19:26,959 --> 02:19:30,039
Speaker 2: to check police power. Yeah, I may have lost the

2735
02:19:30,040 --> 02:19:37,000
Speaker 2: threat a little. I shall not pass. All right, we

2736
02:19:37,040 --> 02:19:38,080
Speaker 2: figured it out. We got it.

2737
02:19:39,840 --> 02:19:40,080
Speaker 3: There.

2738
02:19:40,720 --> 02:19:44,600
Speaker 2: See, people, this is how the sausage gets made so disgustingly.

2739
02:19:45,080 --> 02:19:48,240
Speaker 2: Now we're talking about the NRA, and particularly we have

2740
02:19:48,320 --> 02:19:51,360
Speaker 2: this over the Gun Control Act. This this first big

2741
02:19:51,440 --> 02:19:56,160
Speaker 2: clash between Harlan Carter's people and the Old Guard, and

2742
02:19:56,200 --> 02:19:58,880
Speaker 2: the Old Guard wins, right because they're still broadly speaking

2743
02:19:58,879 --> 02:20:01,480
Speaker 2: in control. But but it becomes that like they kind

2744
02:20:01,520 --> 02:20:04,600
Speaker 2: of sack like in the course of winning, it becomes

2745
02:20:04,640 --> 02:20:08,080
Speaker 2: clear that an awful lot of perhaps most NRA members

2746
02:20:08,160 --> 02:20:10,720
Speaker 2: are actually not on board with the direction they want.

2747
02:20:11,000 --> 02:20:14,920
Speaker 2: They are really excited about this more fundamentalist attitude towards

2748
02:20:14,959 --> 02:20:20,000
Speaker 2: the Second Amendment and while Harlan Carter was busy building

2749
02:20:20,000 --> 02:20:22,320
Speaker 2: the bones of a fundraising and lobbying machine that would

2750
02:20:22,360 --> 02:20:25,199
Speaker 2: dominate conservative and really in a lot of ways, American

2751
02:20:25,240 --> 02:20:28,160
Speaker 2: politics for the next half century. The Old Guard we're

2752
02:20:28,160 --> 02:20:31,560
Speaker 2: wistfully looking back to the organization's past as a sporting

2753
02:20:31,600 --> 02:20:35,080
Speaker 2: association and figured maybe we could go back to that

2754
02:20:35,440 --> 02:20:38,880
Speaker 2: right And so they are the Conservatives, Harlan Carter is

2755
02:20:38,879 --> 02:20:42,640
Speaker 2: the radical right. Politics kind of leaves a bad taste

2756
02:20:42,680 --> 02:20:46,400
Speaker 2: in these people's mouths, because again, they're all aristocrats, right,

2757
02:20:46,920 --> 02:20:51,320
Speaker 2: They're all like they're they're kind of like Joe Biden.

2758
02:20:51,320 --> 02:20:53,400
Speaker 2: They want to have all of their friends right. They

2759
02:20:53,680 --> 02:20:55,720
Speaker 2: like on both sides of things. They don't want things

2760
02:20:55,760 --> 02:20:57,959
Speaker 2: to get too political because that gets nasty and it

2761
02:20:58,000 --> 02:21:00,480
Speaker 2: reduces the number of people who can give you money. So,

2762
02:21:00,760 --> 02:21:03,680
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy three, the Old Guard had purchased land

2763
02:21:03,680 --> 02:21:06,000
Speaker 2: in Colorado and they wanted to turn it, initially into

2764
02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:08,320
Speaker 2: a shooting range. It's pretty normal thing for the NRA

2765
02:21:08,480 --> 02:21:11,120
Speaker 2: to do, But in nineteen seventy six they decided to

2766
02:21:11,160 --> 02:21:15,360
Speaker 2: go with a grander plan, the National Rifle Association Outdoor Center.

2767
02:21:15,720 --> 02:21:18,600
Speaker 2: This was going to be a massive compound dedicated to

2768
02:21:18,760 --> 02:21:22,760
Speaker 2: classes on like woodcrafting and wilderness you know stuff, and

2769
02:21:22,840 --> 02:21:25,959
Speaker 2: conservation research. They're supposed to be like scientific research done there,

2770
02:21:26,120 --> 02:21:28,200
Speaker 2: and also other sporting skills, and of course there would

2771
02:21:28,200 --> 02:21:29,879
Speaker 2: be a shooting range there and people would be able

2772
02:21:29,879 --> 02:21:32,200
Speaker 2: to hunt on the land. But like guns were not

2773
02:21:32,360 --> 02:21:35,080
Speaker 2: the primary purpose, right. It was like a whole outdoor

2774
02:21:35,120 --> 02:21:37,800
Speaker 2: recreation center for the NRA. And this was in line

2775
02:21:37,800 --> 02:21:41,480
Speaker 2: with they wanted to expand the organization because that's obviously

2776
02:21:41,560 --> 02:21:43,720
Speaker 2: it's more money and whatnot. But they didn't want to

2777
02:21:43,760 --> 02:21:47,360
Speaker 2: like hone it on guns entirely. They wanted to be like, well,

2778
02:21:47,360 --> 02:21:49,160
Speaker 2: we could be like the we could be like the

2779
02:21:49,400 --> 02:21:53,200
Speaker 2: American go to organization for like outdoor you know, sporting

2780
02:21:53,240 --> 02:21:56,720
Speaker 2: and stuff. So in order to help them kind of

2781
02:21:56,760 --> 02:21:59,320
Speaker 2: make this shift, right, because this is at this point,

2782
02:21:59,320 --> 02:22:02,280
Speaker 2: but that is different from the NRA's initial vision, as

2783
02:22:02,320 --> 02:22:04,640
Speaker 2: is Harlan Carter's vision, right, so they're both trying to

2784
02:22:04,720 --> 02:22:07,360
Speaker 2: move it in different directions. Right, It's become clear that

2785
02:22:07,480 --> 02:22:10,440
Speaker 2: like this thing the NRA had been isn't going to continue.

2786
02:22:10,480 --> 02:22:12,120
Speaker 2: And the old Guard has a vision and the new

2787
02:22:12,160 --> 02:22:14,879
Speaker 2: Guard has another one, and so the old Guard hires

2788
02:22:14,920 --> 02:22:17,480
Speaker 2: a pr firm, the Orum group to help them drum

2789
02:22:17,560 --> 02:22:20,040
Speaker 2: up funding to make this facility reality, because they need

2790
02:22:20,080 --> 02:22:21,920
Speaker 2: tens of millions of dollars to build this thing. It's

2791
02:22:21,920 --> 02:22:27,080
Speaker 2: a pretty impressive vision, and they hope that they see

2792
02:22:27,080 --> 02:22:29,840
Speaker 2: Carters built this like massive fundraising arm. He's getting all

2793
02:22:29,879 --> 02:22:33,119
Speaker 2: these people organized on behalf of his Second Amendment absolutism,

2794
02:22:33,360 --> 02:22:35,360
Speaker 2: and they want this PR firm to help them like

2795
02:22:35,680 --> 02:22:39,200
Speaker 2: take back like power from from Harlan Carter and like

2796
02:22:39,200 --> 02:22:40,600
Speaker 2: get people on their side.

2797
02:22:41,080 --> 02:22:44,640
Speaker 3: Now here's me like, yeah, you know, Second Amendment absolutism

2798
02:22:44,720 --> 02:22:47,120
Speaker 3: is fun, but what if we built a rec center?

2799
02:22:47,240 --> 02:22:49,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? What if we had a rec center for rich people?

2800
02:22:49,680 --> 02:22:51,560
Speaker 2: You can see what this is kind of like how

2801
02:22:51,600 --> 02:22:55,280
Speaker 2: you've got like those those like old political ghouls in

2802
02:22:55,400 --> 02:22:58,480
Speaker 2: the Democratic at Party and like the parts of the

2803
02:22:58,480 --> 02:23:01,320
Speaker 2: Republican Party that turned into Lincoln Project who opposed Trump

2804
02:23:01,360 --> 02:23:04,879
Speaker 2: with like very slick political ads that did nothing, whereas

2805
02:23:04,920 --> 02:23:07,000
Speaker 2: Trump just got people angry and that works a lot

2806
02:23:07,000 --> 02:23:10,240
Speaker 2: better than like anyway, this is a version of that

2807
02:23:10,280 --> 02:23:12,160
Speaker 2: same fight, right, And part of how you could tell

2808
02:23:12,160 --> 02:23:14,320
Speaker 2: the ORM Group was not going to succeed in their

2809
02:23:14,320 --> 02:23:17,840
Speaker 2: goals is that their founder, like the guy they're named after,

2810
02:23:17,840 --> 02:23:20,520
Speaker 2: their founder is this wealthy New York philanthropists whose most

2811
02:23:20,680 --> 02:23:25,879
Speaker 2: prominent clients before the NRA were Planned parenthood in the NAACP. So, boy,

2812
02:23:26,200 --> 02:23:30,360
Speaker 2: this this guy maybe doesn't get the base of the NRA,

2813
02:23:30,800 --> 02:23:32,600
Speaker 2: and it's gonna have trouble speaking to.

2814
02:23:32,560 --> 02:23:35,040
Speaker 3: Them, right, Yeah, that's gonna be a problem.

2815
02:23:35,200 --> 02:23:37,199
Speaker 2: I might might be a problem. Yeah.

2816
02:23:37,280 --> 02:23:39,320
Speaker 3: I mean it's one thing if it's just like a

2817
02:23:39,640 --> 02:23:42,960
Speaker 3: we have two different branches of conservatism or whatever. But

2818
02:23:43,280 --> 02:23:46,840
Speaker 3: uh no, these guys are going to be politically and

2819
02:23:46,879 --> 02:23:48,160
Speaker 3: morally opposed with each other.

2820
02:23:48,200 --> 02:23:50,720
Speaker 2: It's gonna it's not gonna work out well. It's not

2821
02:23:50,760 --> 02:23:52,800
Speaker 2: gonna work out well for them. It may have it

2822
02:23:52,840 --> 02:23:55,520
Speaker 2: may be such a bad idea that literally anyone could

2823
02:23:55,520 --> 02:23:59,680
Speaker 2: have called it. But the NRA big wigs they bring

2824
02:23:59,680 --> 02:24:02,039
Speaker 2: this guy on the team and his goal in his

2825
02:24:02,160 --> 02:24:04,360
Speaker 2: organization's goal is to chart like a safe new course

2826
02:24:04,360 --> 02:24:06,120
Speaker 2: for the NRA in which they kind of keep out

2827
02:24:06,160 --> 02:24:10,400
Speaker 2: of politics. And this is in part because like they

2828
02:24:10,400 --> 02:24:12,320
Speaker 2: want to build this new facility. You're not gonna get

2829
02:24:12,360 --> 02:24:16,480
Speaker 2: thirty million dollars in nineteen seventies money like by by

2830
02:24:16,560 --> 02:24:19,800
Speaker 2: Hewing do a hard political line, right, so they succeed

2831
02:24:19,840 --> 02:24:22,000
Speaker 2: in roping in a bunch of big donors from all

2832
02:24:22,040 --> 02:24:25,160
Speaker 2: across you know, major American business interests. They get Bill Spencer,

2833
02:24:25,200 --> 02:24:28,080
Speaker 2: who's like the second guy at City Bank. They get

2834
02:24:28,080 --> 02:24:31,040
Speaker 2: Ezra Taft Benson, who's the highest apostle of the Mormon Church.

2835
02:24:31,080 --> 02:24:33,320
Speaker 2: They get a bunch of oil and gas industry big wigs.

2836
02:24:33,320 --> 02:24:35,920
Speaker 2: All of them agree to like start putting money into

2837
02:24:35,959 --> 02:24:39,120
Speaker 2: this project. So in order to like celebrate that they've

2838
02:24:39,200 --> 02:24:41,760
Speaker 2: found enough rich old dudes to fund this thing, the

2839
02:24:41,879 --> 02:24:43,959
Speaker 2: NRA sets up a big party on their land in

2840
02:24:44,000 --> 02:24:47,119
Speaker 2: Colorado for all of these these rich guys, and they

2841
02:24:47,120 --> 02:24:50,440
Speaker 2: basically host like a multi millionaire summer camp. People are

2842
02:24:50,440 --> 02:24:52,600
Speaker 2: like camping in their private jets on the land, Like

2843
02:24:52,600 --> 02:24:54,920
Speaker 2: they park their private jets there and like sleep on them,

2844
02:24:55,000 --> 02:24:56,720
Speaker 2: and then they hunt and fish in the daytime.

2845
02:24:56,879 --> 02:24:57,440
Speaker 3: I love.

2846
02:24:59,240 --> 02:25:02,600
Speaker 2: Exactly right. You see again, this just makes it really

2847
02:25:02,600 --> 02:25:04,600
Speaker 2: easy for Carter to be like, well, these guys don't

2848
02:25:04,600 --> 02:25:08,680
Speaker 2: have your interest at heart, because they don't. Right, Yeah,

2849
02:25:08,840 --> 02:25:11,000
Speaker 2: it's not defending Carter to say that, like, these guys

2850
02:25:11,000 --> 02:25:13,240
Speaker 2: don't give a shit about the average person who might

2851
02:25:13,280 --> 02:25:15,480
Speaker 2: want to join the NRA, because most people who join

2852
02:25:15,520 --> 02:25:18,680
Speaker 2: the NRA are not millionaires with private jets, right exactly.

2853
02:25:19,160 --> 02:25:23,080
Speaker 2: They're missing the entire cultural aspect of it at this point. Yeah,

2854
02:25:23,120 --> 02:25:25,320
Speaker 2: and so this is not going to work out well

2855
02:25:25,360 --> 02:25:29,840
Speaker 2: for them, right, So there's there's some backlash, and Alina

2856
02:25:29,920 --> 02:25:32,480
Speaker 2: Buckley describes kind of the Old Guard's vision of the

2857
02:25:32,480 --> 02:25:36,000
Speaker 2: association's future as quote, one in which shooting accompanied frontier

2858
02:25:36,040 --> 02:25:39,720
Speaker 2: abundance funded by corporations that had long bankrolled conservative causes.

2859
02:25:39,959 --> 02:25:42,640
Speaker 2: One in which guns were a reflection of American might,

2860
02:25:42,879 --> 02:25:45,680
Speaker 2: cowboy like to be sure, but still with a military

2861
02:25:45,840 --> 02:25:49,080
Speaker 2: like formality rather than a vigilante ethos that saw federal

2862
02:25:49,120 --> 02:25:52,600
Speaker 2: power as a threat. So again, the NRA, this is

2863
02:25:52,600 --> 02:25:55,320
Speaker 2: the attitude. The NRA works with the federal government in

2864
02:25:55,400 --> 02:25:58,120
Speaker 2: order to ensure this sporting culture and in order to

2865
02:25:58,200 --> 02:26:01,200
Speaker 2: ensure a degree of military readiness, which is basically back

2866
02:26:01,240 --> 02:26:03,600
Speaker 2: to their old principles. As opposed to the n RA

2867
02:26:03,840 --> 02:26:08,560
Speaker 2: is an association that it enables individual Americans to be vigilantes, right, like,

2868
02:26:08,600 --> 02:26:10,480
Speaker 2: which is more what Carter's pushing.

2869
02:26:10,760 --> 02:26:13,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the fun the fun type.

2870
02:26:13,080 --> 02:26:15,920
Speaker 2: Of the guy who was a vigilante, you know.

2871
02:26:16,120 --> 02:26:16,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

2872
02:26:17,640 --> 02:26:20,160
Speaker 2: So while the Old Guard or hobnobbing with the great

2873
02:26:20,160 --> 02:26:23,000
Speaker 2: and good Harlan Carter is making a strategic alliance with

2874
02:26:23,040 --> 02:26:26,800
Speaker 2: a gun industry journalist, a guy named Neil Knox. Now,

2875
02:26:26,879 --> 02:26:30,200
Speaker 2: Knox had been educated a Christian college in Abilene, Texas,

2876
02:26:30,560 --> 02:26:32,120
Speaker 2: and the fact that he comes from Abilene is a

2877
02:26:32,160 --> 02:26:36,760
Speaker 2: red flag just in general. Don't go to Abilene. No,

2878
02:26:37,000 --> 02:26:45,040
Speaker 2: it's almost as bad as Brady. So anyway, sorry, this

2879
02:26:45,080 --> 02:26:47,800
Speaker 2: is this is just Texas lore. You have to come

2880
02:26:47,840 --> 02:26:51,320
Speaker 2: from Dallas. You have to ship on every other city

2881
02:26:51,320 --> 02:26:54,760
Speaker 2: in Texas so that people don't notice how terrible Dallas is.

2882
02:26:56,040 --> 02:26:57,840
Speaker 2: So I I like to throw a lot of flag

2883
02:26:57,920 --> 02:27:00,640
Speaker 2: Houston's way in order to ignore that They're food is better.

2884
02:27:01,640 --> 02:27:05,120
Speaker 2: It's whatever. So he goes to Aplene college, and every

2885
02:27:05,160 --> 02:27:07,600
Speaker 2: soci'll find on Neil Knox will note that he marries

2886
02:27:07,640 --> 02:27:09,800
Speaker 2: his wife because she was the only girl on campus

2887
02:27:09,840 --> 02:27:13,680
Speaker 2: who kept a rifle in her dorm room. Well, hey,

2888
02:27:13,720 --> 02:27:16,039
Speaker 2: you know what, that's love, right, Like he finds his

2889
02:27:16,120 --> 02:27:18,879
Speaker 2: he finds this person, good for him, he was interested

2890
02:27:18,920 --> 02:27:25,959
Speaker 2: in safe sex. I mean it is this is like

2891
02:27:26,520 --> 02:27:28,840
Speaker 2: getting into like how different some things are in the country.

2892
02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:30,840
Speaker 2: But like at the elementary school where I went to,

2893
02:27:30,920 --> 02:27:36,400
Speaker 2: it was not uncommon for like people, particularly like teachers

2894
02:27:36,400 --> 02:27:38,160
Speaker 2: to have like guns in their cars in the parking

2895
02:27:38,200 --> 02:27:40,920
Speaker 2: lot and at the high school, like kids would regularly

2896
02:27:40,959 --> 02:27:42,560
Speaker 2: have their guns in their cars in the parking lot

2897
02:27:42,640 --> 02:27:44,480
Speaker 2: during the hunting season and stuff. Well it's like they're

2898
02:27:44,560 --> 02:27:46,920
Speaker 2: hunting rifles, right, because they're like, ok, this is in

2899
02:27:47,000 --> 02:27:50,160
Speaker 2: like Idabell, Oklahoma, Like it's not uncommon during the season,

2900
02:27:50,240 --> 02:27:52,240
Speaker 2: Like you go straight from there to like whatever blind

2901
02:27:52,280 --> 02:27:56,879
Speaker 2: you've got. So again, this is like different, different time.

2902
02:27:58,000 --> 02:28:00,320
Speaker 2: But also Neil Knox is a very modern kind of

2903
02:28:00,360 --> 02:28:02,760
Speaker 2: gun guy who is going to help make the NRA

2904
02:28:02,920 --> 02:28:06,080
Speaker 2: into like the gun culture war organization that it comes.

2905
02:28:06,320 --> 02:28:08,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it sounds like the kind of origin story

2906
02:28:08,959 --> 02:28:11,840
Speaker 3: of like the first guy horny for guns. That's going

2907
02:28:11,879 --> 02:28:14,959
Speaker 3: to be normal, Like he's going to normalize being horny.

2908
02:28:15,480 --> 02:28:18,400
Speaker 2: He's gonna normally as being gun horny. But also with

2909
02:28:18,560 --> 02:28:21,560
Speaker 2: conspiracy baked into it, right, that's one of the keys. Right,

2910
02:28:21,600 --> 02:28:23,600
Speaker 2: it's not just like an appreciation for guns, it's an

2911
02:28:23,640 --> 02:28:27,600
Speaker 2: appreciation for guns within this like conspiratorial milieu that Neil

2912
02:28:27,680 --> 02:28:30,400
Speaker 2: Knox is like he's a guy on this.

2913
02:28:30,640 --> 02:28:33,800
Speaker 3: Yes, it's a it's a yeah, he's he's read the

2914
02:28:33,800 --> 02:28:35,000
Speaker 3: Turner Diaries.

2915
02:28:34,640 --> 02:28:37,120
Speaker 2: And shit, yeah, I mean he would have been the

2916
02:28:37,240 --> 02:28:40,000
Speaker 2: kind of guy to help write them. Not that he was,

2917
02:28:40,040 --> 02:28:41,760
Speaker 2: because that's a different set of guys, although they are

2918
02:28:41,840 --> 02:28:44,440
Speaker 2: kind of connected by the Goldwater campaign, but that's another story.

2919
02:28:45,720 --> 02:28:48,720
Speaker 2: As the Dallas Morning News, rights Knox was, Yeah, I'm

2920
02:28:48,760 --> 02:28:51,119
Speaker 2: just going to quote them walking through this guy's background.

2921
02:28:51,160 --> 02:28:53,760
Speaker 2: In the mid nineteen sixties, Knox worked as a reporter

2922
02:28:53,800 --> 02:28:56,560
Speaker 2: and editor with newspapers in Vernon and Wichita Falls, before

2923
02:28:56,560 --> 02:28:59,440
Speaker 2: getting a job as founding editor of Gunweek, a newspaper

2924
02:28:59,480 --> 02:29:01,760
Speaker 2: covering five arms issues of the day. From his base

2925
02:29:01,800 --> 02:29:04,400
Speaker 2: in Arizona, the Bearded gun evangelists spent the next forty

2926
02:29:04,440 --> 02:29:07,080
Speaker 2: years raising against gun control and pinning himself against NRA

2927
02:29:07,240 --> 02:29:09,960
Speaker 2: leaders he saw as too compromising. In the nineteen sixties

2928
02:29:09,959 --> 02:29:12,680
Speaker 2: and seventies, the gun industry and the NRA were inclined

2929
02:29:12,720 --> 02:29:15,360
Speaker 2: towards pragmatism, said Jeff Knox, who's his kid from his

2930
02:29:15,400 --> 02:29:18,640
Speaker 2: home in Buckeye, Arizona, and willing to make concessions. The

2931
02:29:18,640 --> 02:29:21,640
Speaker 2: elder Knox believed strongly that the Second Amendent was absolute,

2932
02:29:21,640 --> 02:29:24,199
Speaker 2: and he especially didn't like the idea of registering guns,

2933
02:29:24,200 --> 02:29:26,680
Speaker 2: which to him, raised the specter of a dictator confiscating

2934
02:29:26,720 --> 02:29:29,760
Speaker 2: all arms. And subduing the citizenry, Jeff Knox said at

2935
02:29:29,760 --> 02:29:32,080
Speaker 2: one point in the mid nineteen nineties, Neil Knox even

2936
02:29:32,120 --> 02:29:34,680
Speaker 2: suggested the assassinations of Kennedy and King might have been

2937
02:29:34,720 --> 02:29:37,920
Speaker 2: staged to build support for gun control. So Knox is

2938
02:29:37,920 --> 02:29:40,920
Speaker 2: the start of specifically the strain of the American right

2939
02:29:41,000 --> 02:29:45,680
Speaker 2: and American gun culture that kind of culminates in Alex Jones. Right, yeah, right,

2940
02:29:45,720 --> 02:29:48,720
Speaker 2: And he's not super big about pushing that, but he

2941
02:29:48,840 --> 02:29:51,240
Speaker 2: is like the first kind of prominent voice to start

2942
02:29:51,280 --> 02:29:53,000
Speaker 2: talking about like these these these.

2943
02:29:52,879 --> 02:29:56,720
Speaker 3: Shootings acts exactly made specifically right for gun control.

2944
02:29:56,840 --> 02:30:00,039
Speaker 2: That's one of the big things that Neil Knox introduces

2945
02:30:00,080 --> 02:30:02,320
Speaker 2: into American culture, at least helps to introduce. I'm not

2946
02:30:02,360 --> 02:30:04,400
Speaker 2: going to claim that he was entirely on his own there,

2947
02:30:05,600 --> 02:30:08,560
Speaker 2: but he's like the vanguard of that kind of guy

2948
02:30:08,959 --> 02:30:11,760
Speaker 2: who winds up doing the Sandy Hook conspiracy shit later on.

2949
02:30:12,440 --> 02:30:15,800
Speaker 2: And it's worth noting though that, Wow, when Knox partners

2950
02:30:15,800 --> 02:30:18,520
Speaker 2: with Harlan Carter. Again, this is seventy six, seventy seven,

2951
02:30:18,879 --> 02:30:23,560
Speaker 2: so he has not yet started pushing conspiracies outright, but

2952
02:30:23,600 --> 02:30:26,480
Speaker 2: you can see kind of where he goes is where

2953
02:30:26,520 --> 02:30:29,200
Speaker 2: he and Carter helped to lead a lot of the

2954
02:30:29,200 --> 02:30:35,360
Speaker 2: gun culture. And yeah, so these guys the old Guard

2955
02:30:35,520 --> 02:30:39,680
Speaker 2: see Carter and Knox and see them as like kind

2956
02:30:39,720 --> 02:30:42,880
Speaker 2: of unhinged. But even more than that, they're not primarily

2957
02:30:42,959 --> 02:30:45,840
Speaker 2: objecting necessarily to their goals as much as the fact

2958
02:30:45,879 --> 02:30:49,160
Speaker 2: that they're so extreme that it's going to take away funding. Right,

2959
02:30:49,200 --> 02:30:51,440
Speaker 2: it's going to reduce the nays ability to attract a

2960
02:30:51,440 --> 02:30:53,880
Speaker 2: lot of people to give them money for this.

2961
02:30:54,240 --> 02:30:57,240
Speaker 3: It was a Republican establishment during like Xamstern, they were

2962
02:30:57,320 --> 02:31:02,000
Speaker 3: just like, listen, we agree all Mexicans are rapists, but

2963
02:31:02,680 --> 02:31:06,240
Speaker 3: you're not gonna get the nomination by saying it. And

2964
02:31:06,320 --> 02:31:08,160
Speaker 3: it's like wanna bet.

2965
02:31:08,440 --> 02:31:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly like that. That's kind of like they're arguing,

2966
02:31:12,200 --> 02:31:14,640
Speaker 2: like these people are too extreme. The NRA will like

2967
02:31:14,920 --> 02:31:19,280
Speaker 2: die out if their kind takes over. And Harlan Cutter's like, oh, motherfucker,

2968
02:31:19,320 --> 02:31:21,080
Speaker 2: you want to see how to make the NRA make

2969
02:31:21,120 --> 02:31:23,039
Speaker 2: a lot of money, I will show you some things.

2970
02:31:23,360 --> 02:31:26,800
Speaker 2: He's about to. Yeah. So one Friday, November of nineteen

2971
02:31:26,840 --> 02:31:29,560
Speaker 2: seventy six, the head of the NRA purged eighty staff

2972
02:31:29,640 --> 02:31:32,960
Speaker 2: members loyal to Carter. Right, they fire everybody with like

2973
02:31:33,160 --> 02:31:35,560
Speaker 2: very little warning because again Carter spent years getting his

2974
02:31:35,560 --> 02:31:37,640
Speaker 2: Border Patrol guys in there. So they try to get

2975
02:31:37,720 --> 02:31:39,760
Speaker 2: rid of all these people and what becomes known later

2976
02:31:39,800 --> 02:31:43,879
Speaker 2: as the Weekend massacre and Harlan it's the only massacre.

2977
02:31:46,320 --> 02:31:50,480
Speaker 2: Harlan resigns from his position in protest, and Alina Buckley

2978
02:31:50,480 --> 02:31:54,400
Speaker 2: continues Quote and Gunweek, Handloader, and Rifle, all publications Knox

2979
02:31:54,440 --> 02:31:57,240
Speaker 2: At once edited. Writers began reporting rumors about a shake

2980
02:31:57,280 --> 02:31:59,720
Speaker 2: up at headquarters. The ORUM Group's report on the Outdoor

2981
02:31:59,760 --> 02:32:02,080
Speaker 2: Center had been leaked, and gun group leaders around the

2982
02:32:02,080 --> 02:32:04,320
Speaker 2: country bristled at its language. And this is from the

2983
02:32:04,920 --> 02:32:07,880
Speaker 2: Orum Group's report. In the public mind, the NRA's current

2984
02:32:07,920 --> 02:32:10,520
Speaker 2: image is based almost totally on its supposed opposition to

2985
02:32:10,520 --> 02:32:13,320
Speaker 2: any form of gun control. This public image constitutes a

2986
02:32:13,320 --> 02:32:17,119
Speaker 2: weakness for fundraising. A new piece of again, very bad

2987
02:32:17,160 --> 02:32:20,520
Speaker 2: at being at their job. By the way, a new

2988
02:32:20,600 --> 02:32:23,040
Speaker 2: piece of information had gotten out too, via a brocher

2989
02:32:23,120 --> 02:32:25,760
Speaker 2: sent in the mail to some members. The Executive Committee

2990
02:32:25,800 --> 02:32:29,040
Speaker 2: was considering moving the headquarters to Colorado Springs, not far

2991
02:32:29,080 --> 02:32:31,879
Speaker 2: from Raton, where the NRA could focus more squarely on

2992
02:32:31,879 --> 02:32:35,760
Speaker 2: its sports shooting ties. Regional gun groups began receiving concerned

2993
02:32:35,800 --> 02:32:39,200
Speaker 2: notes from their members. The Shooter's Committee of Political Education SCOPE,

2994
02:32:39,240 --> 02:32:41,520
Speaker 2: based in New York, wrote a letter to Rich protesting

2995
02:32:41,600 --> 02:32:44,080
Speaker 2: the nre's recent board appointees and to let him know

2996
02:32:44,120 --> 02:32:46,520
Speaker 2: that they would advise their membership to write in Neil Knox,

2997
02:32:46,560 --> 02:32:49,080
Speaker 2: among several others as board candidate. At the annual meeting

2998
02:32:49,160 --> 02:32:52,760
Speaker 2: in Cincinnati. In the American Riflement, an unsigned editorial appeared.

2999
02:32:52,920 --> 02:32:55,400
Speaker 2: There have been charges that the National Rifle Association is

3000
02:32:55,440 --> 02:32:59,119
Speaker 2: being subverted. It read in abandoning its fight against gun control.

3001
02:33:00,080 --> 02:33:04,000
Speaker 2: So this, uh, and you see here they've built in

3002
02:33:04,040 --> 02:33:06,680
Speaker 2: their partnership, Knox and Carter have built a very effective

3003
02:33:08,320 --> 02:33:12,600
Speaker 2: both fundraising and propaganda wing. That is, they're they're building

3004
02:33:12,640 --> 02:33:16,160
Speaker 2: a moral panic over this right in a very modern way.

3005
02:33:16,200 --> 02:33:18,080
Speaker 2: In a way that is, and it's modern because this

3006
02:33:18,160 --> 02:33:20,120
Speaker 2: is like the the fucking this is part of like

3007
02:33:20,120 --> 02:33:22,240
Speaker 2: the blueprint of really everything the right will do in

3008
02:33:22,240 --> 02:33:24,720
Speaker 2: the future. So for the next couple of weeks, Knox

3009
02:33:24,720 --> 02:33:27,879
Speaker 2: and Carter call every other NRA lifetime member they can

3010
02:33:28,400 --> 02:33:31,760
Speaker 2: in brief, like you, when you have an organization like

3011
02:33:31,800 --> 02:33:34,199
Speaker 2: the NRA, every year you have to have a meeting

3012
02:33:34,240 --> 02:33:36,040
Speaker 2: and you have to do like voting at that meeting

3013
02:33:36,080 --> 02:33:38,520
Speaker 2: and stuff, and like there's people who are the actual

3014
02:33:38,560 --> 02:33:41,039
Speaker 2: like board and stuff, but also the lifetime members get

3015
02:33:41,040 --> 02:33:44,360
Speaker 2: to vote, and so the board is in control unless

3016
02:33:44,360 --> 02:33:47,199
Speaker 2: you can get like enough of those members to vote

3017
02:33:47,840 --> 02:33:51,000
Speaker 2: on measures that would like replace the leadership, right, So,

3018
02:33:51,480 --> 02:33:53,120
Speaker 2: and they didn't. They had never worked, No one had

3019
02:33:53,120 --> 02:33:55,400
Speaker 2: ever really tried to do this before the fact that

3020
02:33:55,440 --> 02:33:57,920
Speaker 2: the members get to vote had kind of been like

3021
02:33:57,920 --> 02:34:00,520
Speaker 2: like stock options voting, where it's like, right, yeah, I

3022
02:34:00,560 --> 02:34:03,120
Speaker 2: mean the random citizens who control twenty percent of the

3023
02:34:03,160 --> 02:34:05,800
Speaker 2: company's stock get a vote, but like our CEO controls

3024
02:34:05,840 --> 02:34:08,520
Speaker 2: forty five percent, in his best friend controls twenty, so

3025
02:34:08,560 --> 02:34:10,760
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what they say, right right. That was

3026
02:34:10,800 --> 02:34:15,240
Speaker 2: the thinking. But obviously the NRA isn't like a publicly

3027
02:34:15,280 --> 02:34:18,119
Speaker 2: traded company. You just each each of these people has

3028
02:34:18,120 --> 02:34:20,400
Speaker 2: a vote, and if you can whip them all into shape,

3029
02:34:20,520 --> 02:34:23,040
Speaker 2: you could actually rest control of the organization away from

3030
02:34:23,080 --> 02:34:25,800
Speaker 2: the old guard, which is what knocks and Carters start

3031
02:34:25,840 --> 02:34:28,760
Speaker 2: planning to do. Now, there's a lot of politicking that

3032
02:34:28,840 --> 02:34:31,200
Speaker 2: goes on here. You can read about it in detail

3033
02:34:31,240 --> 02:34:33,960
Speaker 2: in Alena Buckley's article. One thing I think that's worth

3034
02:34:34,080 --> 02:34:36,280
Speaker 2: noting is that the whole event has something of an

3035
02:34:36,280 --> 02:34:39,680
Speaker 2: early Trumpy vibe. The folks carter lines up to back

3036
02:34:39,720 --> 02:34:41,959
Speaker 2: their plan to take over the NRA saw the Old

3037
02:34:41,959 --> 02:34:44,760
Speaker 2: Guard as out of touch aristocrats, which they were. They

3038
02:34:44,840 --> 02:34:49,360
Speaker 2: framed themselves as like Paul Revere types. Right, they're founding fathers, right,

3039
02:34:49,400 --> 02:34:53,840
Speaker 2: they're fighting a revolution against an unjust like aristocracy. Yeah,

3040
02:34:53,879 --> 02:34:55,480
Speaker 2: one person who was probable.

3041
02:34:55,240 --> 02:34:57,920
Speaker 3: But they're all doing the cosplay now. It's already begins

3042
02:34:58,000 --> 02:34:59,959
Speaker 3: with the don't tread on me flags and the three

3043
02:35:00,080 --> 02:35:02,560
Speaker 3: pointed you know, fucking hats and yes.

3044
02:35:03,680 --> 02:35:06,279
Speaker 2: And one person who was present later recalled some members

3045
02:35:06,320 --> 02:35:09,280
Speaker 2: were angry enough to bring rope, tar and feathers to Cincinnati.

3046
02:35:11,480 --> 02:35:15,000
Speaker 3: Yeah's are obsession when it's like, oh, the tea party,

3047
02:35:15,360 --> 02:35:18,119
Speaker 3: tarn feathering. It's just like they just have an obsession

3048
02:35:18,160 --> 02:35:22,080
Speaker 3: with this like patriotic forms of like you know, like

3049
02:35:22,560 --> 02:35:24,359
Speaker 3: old style LARPing.

3050
02:35:24,680 --> 02:35:30,160
Speaker 2: It's just just the same fucking God. I mean this

3051
02:35:30,200 --> 02:35:34,520
Speaker 2: gets into a broader issue that actually is is present

3052
02:35:34,560 --> 02:35:39,560
Speaker 2: in different forms everywhere, which is that like everyone has

3053
02:35:39,720 --> 02:35:43,400
Speaker 2: their types of violence that are like good and traditional

3054
02:35:43,400 --> 02:35:45,840
Speaker 2: and okay, and they're types of violence that are so

3055
02:35:46,640 --> 02:35:51,039
Speaker 2: black people breaking a bunch of windows during a riot

3056
02:35:51,680 --> 02:35:54,720
Speaker 2: or like you know, flipping a cop car and lighting

3057
02:35:54,720 --> 02:35:58,800
Speaker 2: and on fire. That is not okay, that's horrifying. That's

3058
02:35:58,959 --> 02:36:02,280
Speaker 2: that's evil violence. You know, end of some caring and

3059
02:36:02,320 --> 02:36:05,720
Speaker 2: feathering a guy trying to like raise taxes, like literally

3060
02:36:05,760 --> 02:36:08,080
Speaker 2: melting a man's skin off in order to stop him

3061
02:36:08,120 --> 02:36:10,320
Speaker 2: from like getting the taxes that will pay for a road.

3062
02:36:10,680 --> 02:36:14,000
Speaker 2: That's traditional, right, Yeah, that's and that's yeah, it's allowed.

3063
02:36:14,080 --> 02:36:14,280
Speaker 2: You know.

3064
02:36:14,480 --> 02:36:18,480
Speaker 3: It's uh, I mean burning their skin off and then

3065
02:36:18,840 --> 02:36:19,400
Speaker 3: the feathers.

3066
02:36:19,440 --> 02:36:20,920
Speaker 2: It's just so they look like a chicken.

3067
02:36:21,600 --> 02:36:26,520
Speaker 3: Just the most horrifying joke that you can possibly think of.

3068
02:36:26,959 --> 02:36:28,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was.

3069
02:36:27,920 --> 02:36:32,760
Speaker 3: Like that John Adams HBO series with Paul Giamatti. Oh yeah, yeah,

3070
02:36:32,879 --> 02:36:34,920
Speaker 3: they had like a tarring and feathering in it, and

3071
02:36:34,959 --> 02:36:36,680
Speaker 3: it was like the first time I was like, oh yeah,

3072
02:36:36,680 --> 02:36:38,560
Speaker 3: that's incredibly violent.

3073
02:36:38,280 --> 02:36:39,400
Speaker 2: Really really violent.

3074
02:36:39,440 --> 02:36:42,959
Speaker 3: Actually tatar I thought it was just like, hey, we're

3075
02:36:42,959 --> 02:36:44,959
Speaker 3: gonna make you look like a funny chicken, like a

3076
02:36:45,000 --> 02:36:46,440
Speaker 3: pie in the face. I put it on the same

3077
02:36:46,520 --> 02:36:47,520
Speaker 3: level as a pine a face.

3078
02:36:47,560 --> 02:36:50,200
Speaker 2: But it's no, it's not. It's pretty bad. No, And

3079
02:36:50,240 --> 02:36:52,680
Speaker 2: it's like, I mean, everyone, there's a degree to which

3080
02:36:52,720 --> 02:36:55,280
Speaker 2: this is very common across the political spectrum, because one

3081
02:36:55,320 --> 02:36:58,720
Speaker 2: that you get like whenever people suggests like, well, the

3082
02:36:58,760 --> 02:37:02,480
Speaker 2: cops should confiscate this or the cops should like do that,

3083
02:37:02,560 --> 02:37:07,279
Speaker 2: it's like, well, okay, what happens when police confiscate things?

3084
02:37:07,280 --> 02:37:09,840
Speaker 2: Like what does that look like? Violence wise? You know, yes,

3085
02:37:10,640 --> 02:37:13,199
Speaker 2: And it's it's because like I don't know, everyone's got

3086
02:37:13,720 --> 02:37:17,480
Speaker 2: it's it's a. It's a it's I mean, it's a

3087
02:37:17,480 --> 02:37:20,119
Speaker 2: common political tactic. Right to frame the violence you want

3088
02:37:20,160 --> 02:37:21,920
Speaker 2: to do or you want to have the government do

3089
02:37:22,440 --> 02:37:24,879
Speaker 2: as not violence because it's being done by the government.

3090
02:37:24,959 --> 02:37:27,440
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, when people do a panic about

3091
02:37:27,480 --> 02:37:31,080
Speaker 2: like drug dealers sneaking fentanyl into things, and their solution

3092
02:37:31,160 --> 02:37:33,240
Speaker 2: to that is have the DEA raid more people, It's like,

3093
02:37:33,280 --> 02:37:38,200
Speaker 2: well the DEA kill people too. Yeah, yeah, completely, I

3094
02:37:38,240 --> 02:37:42,920
Speaker 2: don't know, this is just what people do anyway. Uh So,

3095
02:37:44,160 --> 02:37:47,680
Speaker 2: knox h takes point on the actual day of the convention.

3096
02:37:48,080 --> 02:37:50,440
Speaker 2: He's the one who's actually whipping votes at the NRA

3097
02:37:50,600 --> 02:37:53,400
Speaker 2: convention to propose a series of bylaw changes. Using the

3098
02:37:53,400 --> 02:37:55,640
Speaker 2: support based Carter had built, he gets them to vote

3099
02:37:55,720 --> 02:37:57,959
Speaker 2: in a defense of the second Amendment to the NRA's

3100
02:37:57,959 --> 02:38:02,080
Speaker 2: Mission for the first time, right, So he's like, this

3101
02:38:02,160 --> 02:38:04,080
Speaker 2: is the first time they actually add because the like

3102
02:38:04,120 --> 02:38:06,360
Speaker 2: they have a mission statement whatever is an organization. The

3103
02:38:06,400 --> 02:38:08,680
Speaker 2: first thing they do is they add like Second Amendment,

3104
02:38:08,920 --> 02:38:11,720
Speaker 2: you know, like we are an advocating for like the

3105
02:38:11,800 --> 02:38:13,800
Speaker 2: you know, this interpretation of the Second Amendment to that.

3106
02:38:14,320 --> 02:38:16,080
Speaker 2: The next thing they do is they block the sale

3107
02:38:16,120 --> 02:38:19,320
Speaker 2: of the NRA headquarters in DC, and they block the

3108
02:38:19,360 --> 02:38:21,520
Speaker 2: development of the outdoor center, so they put it into

3109
02:38:21,600 --> 02:38:27,920
Speaker 2: this plan and then uh Carter or Knox brings up

3110
02:38:27,920 --> 02:38:30,200
Speaker 2: a guy named Bob Kukla, who's one of Carter's people

3111
02:38:30,200 --> 02:38:33,279
Speaker 2: who's still in the NRA. When Carter resigns in protest,

3112
02:38:33,720 --> 02:38:37,959
Speaker 2: Cucla takes over the lobbying arm and he's apparently I

3113
02:38:37,959 --> 02:38:40,600
Speaker 2: guess the Old Guard had thought he was trustworthy, but

3114
02:38:40,640 --> 02:38:43,680
Speaker 2: he secretly records one of their managing committee meetings and

3115
02:38:43,720 --> 02:38:46,200
Speaker 2: they play this in front of the crowd, and in

3116
02:38:46,240 --> 02:38:47,800
Speaker 2: the tape you can hear the current head of the

3117
02:38:47,879 --> 02:38:50,360
Speaker 2: NRA and the other members of the Old Guard criticizing

3118
02:38:50,400 --> 02:38:53,120
Speaker 2: Cucla for quote going to war every time someone mentions

3119
02:38:53,160 --> 02:38:57,400
Speaker 2: gun control. So it pulled up Project Veritas on he

3120
02:38:57,440 --> 02:39:00,200
Speaker 2: does he Veritas again. These guys are really Bill being

3121
02:39:00,240 --> 02:39:02,800
Speaker 2: the playbook that's going to be used everywhere, well outside

3122
02:39:02,840 --> 02:39:06,240
Speaker 2: of guns. Goddamn. So following this, Knox and his voters

3123
02:39:06,280 --> 02:39:09,879
Speaker 2: stripped the board and Managing Committee of power and basically,

3124
02:39:10,040 --> 02:39:11,600
Speaker 2: again this is there. You can go into a lot

3125
02:39:11,600 --> 02:39:13,840
Speaker 2: more detail about how they do this, all legislative lea.

3126
02:39:13,879 --> 02:39:16,120
Speaker 2: By the end of things, the old guard are no

3127
02:39:16,200 --> 02:39:18,840
Speaker 2: longer in charge of the NRA and Harlan Carter is

3128
02:39:18,879 --> 02:39:23,680
Speaker 2: the new executive vice president. Damn. At three yeah, yeah,

3129
02:39:23,720 --> 02:39:27,440
Speaker 2: they do it. They do it fucking street style. And

3130
02:39:27,600 --> 02:39:30,080
Speaker 2: at three point thirty am, Carter takes to the stage

3131
02:39:30,080 --> 02:39:32,600
Speaker 2: to give his first speech to his newly conquered NRA.

3132
02:39:33,480 --> 02:39:36,480
Speaker 2: You're America's greatest people, my friends. Don't ever forget that

3133
02:39:36,560 --> 02:39:39,320
Speaker 2: you are. You have afforded the NRA this wonderful, historically

3134
02:39:39,320 --> 02:39:41,760
Speaker 2: important reaction of yours to the way the association has

3135
02:39:41,760 --> 02:39:43,320
Speaker 2: been going, to the way you want it to be,

3136
02:39:43,520 --> 02:39:45,160
Speaker 2: to the way it ought to be. And if I

3137
02:39:45,200 --> 02:39:46,720
Speaker 2: have anything to do with it, you are going to

3138
02:39:46,760 --> 02:39:53,080
Speaker 2: win because you are the NRA. Fuck. So he did it.

3139
02:39:53,440 --> 02:39:55,040
Speaker 2: He did it, very trumpy speech.

3140
02:39:55,280 --> 02:39:58,120
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I did is Trump's speech, and he took

3141
02:39:58,160 --> 02:40:02,520
Speaker 3: over the NRA, and I imagine now, uh, people are

3142
02:40:02,560 --> 02:40:03,720
Speaker 3: going to start falling in line.

3143
02:40:04,280 --> 02:40:07,280
Speaker 2: That's uh yeah, well the NRA is going to make

3144
02:40:07,320 --> 02:40:09,200
Speaker 2: a lot of people fall in line, and we're going

3145
02:40:09,280 --> 02:40:12,560
Speaker 2: to talk about what they do. But first, you know

3146
02:40:12,640 --> 02:40:20,520
Speaker 2: who loves to carry out coups. Who our sponsors, who

3147
02:40:20,600 --> 02:40:23,560
Speaker 2: backed a series of coups in Indonesia in order to

3148
02:40:23,600 --> 02:40:25,920
Speaker 2: gain access to the island that you can go to

3149
02:40:26,000 --> 02:40:26,600
Speaker 2: hunt kids on.

3150
02:40:27,879 --> 02:40:29,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what they're known for.

3151
02:40:29,480 --> 02:40:31,520
Speaker 2: And hey, if you're not if you're not into guns,

3152
02:40:32,240 --> 02:40:35,959
Speaker 2: understands you can use bows. You can use an addle addle. Yeah.

3153
02:40:36,040 --> 02:40:39,920
Speaker 2: Ninja stars. Ninja stars for sure, looks they can't stop you.

3154
02:40:40,240 --> 02:40:44,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, a bow staff, literally any weapon that ninja turtles us.

3155
02:40:44,720 --> 02:40:48,039
Speaker 2: Yeah. The government of Indonesia has no control over this island,

3156
02:40:48,120 --> 02:40:59,119
Speaker 2: so it's all on. Oh we're back. So immediately after

3157
02:40:59,160 --> 02:41:02,160
Speaker 2: carrying out his harlan, Carter sets to work remaking the

3158
02:41:02,280 --> 02:41:04,840
Speaker 2: NRA in his own image. One of his first hires

3159
02:41:04,879 --> 02:41:07,360
Speaker 2: is a guy you may have heard of, Matt Wayne LaPier.

3160
02:41:07,760 --> 02:41:10,880
Speaker 2: Ah yeah, yeah, good old Yeah, there we go, w

3161
02:41:11,480 --> 02:41:12,679
Speaker 2: Big Wayne.

3162
02:41:12,480 --> 02:41:17,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, big le Pierre Pee Peppi la pew pew PuO pew.

3163
02:41:18,440 --> 02:41:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3164
02:41:18,640 --> 02:41:20,480
Speaker 3: I don't exists, not French, but you know.

3165
02:41:20,520 --> 02:41:22,760
Speaker 2: It's I mean, probably somewhere along them.

3166
02:41:22,560 --> 02:41:25,600
Speaker 3: Somewhere along the line. The point is, Pew is a

3167
02:41:25,720 --> 02:41:26,160
Speaker 3: very good.

3168
02:41:26,400 --> 02:41:28,600
Speaker 2: And everyone that was a good joke, you should be proud.

3169
02:41:28,959 --> 02:41:31,800
Speaker 2: So by nineteen eighty six, Lapierre is running the NRA's

3170
02:41:31,920 --> 02:41:33,680
Speaker 2: entire lobbying arm. Right, so he kind of takes the

3171
02:41:33,760 --> 02:41:37,039
Speaker 2: job that Carter had had basically, but by the by

3172
02:41:37,080 --> 02:41:40,200
Speaker 2: the eighties, he has turned it into because again it

3173
02:41:40,240 --> 02:41:42,200
Speaker 2: was I mean, and Carter started this process, but it

3174
02:41:42,240 --> 02:41:45,680
Speaker 2: becomes the most the best funded and most effective lobbying

3175
02:41:45,840 --> 02:41:50,520
Speaker 2: organization in DC, right in the entire country. Again insane.

3176
02:41:50,520 --> 02:41:54,200
Speaker 2: Carter draws kind of the blueprints, LaPier carries them out

3177
02:41:54,200 --> 02:41:56,840
Speaker 2: though there's no other editorial.

3178
02:41:56,959 --> 02:42:01,320
Speaker 3: Someday you know exists that you know, it has a

3179
02:42:01,320 --> 02:42:03,680
Speaker 3: lobbying arm that changed into just like a you know

3180
02:42:03,760 --> 02:42:05,519
Speaker 3: what I mean, it was like this was a sportsman

3181
02:42:05,680 --> 02:42:08,520
Speaker 3: lobby that it wasn't even a lobby, and now it

3182
02:42:08,600 --> 02:42:10,720
Speaker 3: is the most powerful lobbying.

3183
02:42:11,080 --> 02:42:13,920
Speaker 2: And again there's like critiques about well were primarily interested

3184
02:42:13,920 --> 02:42:16,080
Speaker 2: in like preserving rich people's right to ownership, but they

3185
02:42:16,080 --> 02:42:18,840
Speaker 2: were broadly speaking saw that like, okay, when a law

3186
02:42:18,840 --> 02:42:21,040
Speaker 2: affecting guns is proposed, we'll sit down and we'll let

3187
02:42:21,040 --> 02:42:22,760
Speaker 2: them know this is how we think this will affect

3188
02:42:22,760 --> 02:42:24,720
Speaker 2: our members. And these are some changes. And you know,

3189
02:42:25,040 --> 02:42:28,600
Speaker 2: again it's like broadly speaking, like like what you would

3190
02:42:29,040 --> 02:42:31,440
Speaker 2: kind of want to see in a democracy that's supposed

3191
02:42:31,480 --> 02:42:34,480
Speaker 2: to function the way ours does as opposed to like

3192
02:42:34,640 --> 02:42:38,040
Speaker 2: we are going to become so key to right wing

3193
02:42:38,120 --> 02:42:41,959
Speaker 2: fundraising that if somebody proposes any kind of law meant

3194
02:42:42,080 --> 02:42:46,440
Speaker 2: at curbing gun crime, we will destroy them forever, right, Yeah,

3195
02:42:47,080 --> 02:42:51,480
Speaker 2: which is necessary, Yeah, by any means necessary, and to

3196
02:42:51,920 --> 02:42:54,240
Speaker 2: an extent that, like it doesn't matter how like reasonable

3197
02:42:54,840 --> 02:42:57,680
Speaker 2: the restriction might be. Like even outside of stuff like

3198
02:42:57,680 --> 02:42:59,959
Speaker 2: an assault weapons band, Like if you're going to propose

3199
02:43:00,160 --> 02:43:03,800
Speaker 2: like universal background checks, which most gun owners support, right,

3200
02:43:04,200 --> 02:43:08,120
Speaker 2: we're gonna come for your ass, you know, unless you're

3201
02:43:08,200 --> 02:43:12,960
Speaker 2: the Black Panthers, but whatever you're like. So, another nineteen

3202
02:43:13,000 --> 02:43:15,320
Speaker 2: seventy seven higher brought onto the NRA at the same

3203
02:43:15,320 --> 02:43:18,080
Speaker 2: time as Wayne Lapierre, is a guy named Robert Dowlett.

3204
02:43:18,400 --> 02:43:21,400
Speaker 2: Now Dowblet becomes the NRA's general counsel, and it's his

3205
02:43:21,560 --> 02:43:24,600
Speaker 2: job to begin wrangling together legal scholars to push hard

3206
02:43:24,600 --> 02:43:27,720
Speaker 2: the idea of an individualist interpretation of the Second Amendment.

3207
02:43:28,280 --> 02:43:32,360
Speaker 2: So between nineteen sixty nineteen seventy, there's only three law

3208
02:43:32,400 --> 02:43:36,840
Speaker 2: review articles endorsing an individualist interpretation. Right, there are some

3209
02:43:36,879 --> 02:43:39,119
Speaker 2: like state level rovings, you could argue kind of endorse

3210
02:43:39,160 --> 02:43:41,879
Speaker 2: one earlier, but there's never been like a national, like

3211
02:43:41,920 --> 02:43:43,720
Speaker 2: a Supreme Court ruling on the matter one way or

3212
02:43:43,720 --> 02:43:45,920
Speaker 2: the other. And it hadn't really people had not even

3213
02:43:45,959 --> 02:43:48,800
Speaker 2: talked about it in that way until the sixties. So

3214
02:43:48,959 --> 02:43:51,680
Speaker 2: three law review articles written between nineteen sixty and nineteen

3215
02:43:51,720 --> 02:43:55,520
Speaker 2: seventy endorsing that interpretation. Between nineteen seventy and nineteen eighty nine,

3216
02:43:55,600 --> 02:43:57,960
Speaker 2: the period in which Dowlett is the NRA's General Council,

3217
02:43:58,080 --> 02:44:00,600
Speaker 2: there are twenty seven law review articles, three of which

3218
02:44:00,640 --> 02:44:03,840
Speaker 2: are authored by Dowblit himself, and his work would start

3219
02:44:03,879 --> 02:44:06,240
Speaker 2: to bear fruit. Again. There's some like lower level rulings,

3220
02:44:06,560 --> 02:44:09,800
Speaker 2: but it makes the individualist interpretation of the Second Amendment

3221
02:44:09,840 --> 02:44:11,520
Speaker 2: makes its way to the Supreme Court for the first

3222
02:44:11,560 --> 02:44:14,520
Speaker 2: time in two thousand and one. Some people will say, like,

3223
02:44:14,600 --> 02:44:16,840
Speaker 2: point to DC as Heller, that's not the first time

3224
02:44:16,879 --> 02:44:19,240
Speaker 2: it happens in two thousand and one, and the case

3225
02:44:19,280 --> 02:44:22,120
Speaker 2: in question has its origins in a nineteen ninety seven

3226
02:44:22,240 --> 02:44:25,119
Speaker 2: criminal case in which a Texas woman divorced her husband

3227
02:44:25,280 --> 02:44:27,879
Speaker 2: and filed for a protective order against him because he

3228
02:44:27,920 --> 02:44:30,080
Speaker 2: had threatened to murder the man she cheated on him

3229
02:44:30,080 --> 02:44:33,360
Speaker 2: with the next year, while he's got this protective order,

3230
02:44:33,360 --> 02:44:35,520
Speaker 2: which he's not supposed to have guns because he has

3231
02:44:35,560 --> 02:44:38,400
Speaker 2: the protective order against him. Right during a meeting with

3232
02:44:38,400 --> 02:44:41,400
Speaker 2: his wife and daughter over some financial issue, he pulls

3233
02:44:41,440 --> 02:44:43,720
Speaker 2: a gun during an argument and points it at them,

3234
02:44:44,160 --> 02:44:48,400
Speaker 2: so he gets in again. If you're a rational gun owner,

3235
02:44:48,440 --> 02:44:49,959
Speaker 2: you a thing like, well, this is exactly the kind

3236
02:44:50,000 --> 02:44:52,039
Speaker 2: of person who shouldn't have access to a fucking gun.

3237
02:44:53,440 --> 02:44:55,920
Speaker 2: He gets indicted for possession of a firearm, will subject

3238
02:44:55,920 --> 02:44:58,119
Speaker 2: to a court order, and he files for dismissal, arguing

3239
02:44:58,160 --> 02:45:00,800
Speaker 2: that this had unfairly infringed on his sex an Amendment right.

3240
02:45:01,240 --> 02:45:04,080
Speaker 2: And the ruling what it actually rules is kind of complicated.

3241
02:45:04,080 --> 02:45:06,480
Speaker 2: The ruling is not entirely in favor of this guy, Emmerson.

3242
02:45:06,560 --> 02:45:09,680
Speaker 2: It's Emerson versus the United States. But in the ruling,

3243
02:45:09,920 --> 02:45:12,800
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court rules that the Second describes the Second

3244
02:45:12,800 --> 02:45:15,560
Speaker 2: Amendment as an individual right right. So this is the

3245
02:45:15,560 --> 02:45:18,320
Speaker 2: first time that happens at a federal level. And then

3246
02:45:18,440 --> 02:45:21,320
Speaker 2: this ruling in two thousand is reinforced by two thousand

3247
02:45:21,360 --> 02:45:23,600
Speaker 2: and eight DC versus Heller, which is like the big

3248
02:45:23,680 --> 02:45:26,400
Speaker 2: ruling that is really more explicitly on can you ban

3249
02:45:26,560 --> 02:45:29,160
Speaker 2: like categories of weapons and whatever it's based on like

3250
02:45:29,200 --> 02:45:32,400
Speaker 2: a DC I think handgun ban. And then in twenty

3251
02:45:32,520 --> 02:45:37,279
Speaker 2: ten the Second Amendment is finally incorporated in McDonald v. Chicago.

3252
02:45:37,959 --> 02:45:41,080
Speaker 2: But this is all you know, orchestrated by Robert Dowlett,

3253
02:45:41,160 --> 02:45:43,520
Speaker 2: right starting in the seventies. And one thing you have

3254
02:45:43,560 --> 02:45:45,640
Speaker 2: to say about the man is he earned his salary. Right,

3255
02:45:45,879 --> 02:45:49,840
Speaker 2: that's a significant change in US Jewish prudence that he

3256
02:45:50,320 --> 02:45:56,039
Speaker 2: kind of painstakingly is the architect of pushing. It's probably

3257
02:45:56,240 --> 02:46:00,000
Speaker 2: worth noting here that he was a murderer, So I'm

3258
02:46:00,000 --> 02:46:03,480
Speaker 2: I'm going a quote from the Boston Review here. Robert J.

3259
02:46:03,640 --> 02:46:06,400
Speaker 2: Dowlitt was convicted of murdering Anna Marie Yoakum, the mother

3260
02:46:06,440 --> 02:46:09,560
Speaker 2: of his then girlfriend, in nineteen sixty three. Dalitt also

3261
02:46:09,640 --> 02:46:12,040
Speaker 2: robbed and shot the owner of a pawn shop. Like

3262
02:46:12,120 --> 02:46:15,680
Speaker 2: Carter dal Liitt was seventeen years old when he pulled

3263
02:46:15,680 --> 02:46:18,320
Speaker 2: the trigger. He confessed to the shootings and served six

3264
02:46:18,400 --> 02:46:21,480
Speaker 2: years in prison before his conviction was overturned on a technicality.

3265
02:46:21,720 --> 02:46:25,920
Speaker 2: The crimes were not made public until twenty fourteen. God damn, no,

3266
02:46:26,080 --> 02:46:29,920
Speaker 2: wonder it's like this is it's also he and s

3267
02:46:30,200 --> 02:46:33,880
Speaker 2: origin story over, He and Carter and Kyle Rittenhouse all

3268
02:46:33,959 --> 02:46:37,240
Speaker 2: seventeen when they fucking kill people in like these, I

3269
02:46:37,240 --> 02:46:39,840
Speaker 2: guess I would maybe you wouldn't call what dowlit does

3270
02:46:39,959 --> 02:46:42,879
Speaker 2: vigilante violence. He's really just murdering people. No, that just

3271
02:46:42,920 --> 02:46:45,600
Speaker 2: sounds like straight up murderer. Yeah, he just murders a

3272
02:46:45,640 --> 02:46:47,920
Speaker 2: woman and then shoots a pawn shop owner and a robbery,

3273
02:46:47,959 --> 02:46:49,959
Speaker 2: So I guess you would say he's not a vigil

3274
02:46:50,000 --> 02:46:52,879
Speaker 2: ande he's just straight up an armed criminal. That is

3275
02:46:53,200 --> 02:46:54,320
Speaker 2: fucking insane.

3276
02:46:54,600 --> 02:46:57,240
Speaker 3: And this is the guy who's made it easier for

3277
02:46:57,360 --> 02:47:00,520
Speaker 3: fucking everyone in the world in the United States.

3278
02:47:00,560 --> 02:47:05,960
Speaker 2: Sick. He's he's the NRA's general counsel. So at one

3279
02:47:06,000 --> 02:47:08,879
Speaker 2: point I assume he went to law school. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

3280
02:47:08,879 --> 02:47:11,680
Speaker 2: because again he gets off like like a like Carter does. Right,

3281
02:47:11,720 --> 02:47:13,200
Speaker 2: he gets off and then he goes to college, and

3282
02:47:13,280 --> 02:47:14,360
Speaker 2: I mean, yea, his career.

3283
02:47:14,680 --> 02:47:15,280
Speaker 3: Good for them.

3284
02:47:15,600 --> 02:47:16,560
Speaker 2: I guess nice.

3285
02:47:16,600 --> 02:47:18,680
Speaker 3: You know, we live in the land of opportunity like that,

3286
02:47:18,800 --> 02:47:21,120
Speaker 3: I believe firmly that people should be able to get

3287
02:47:21,120 --> 02:47:23,440
Speaker 3: a second chance after making a mistake, especially when they're

3288
02:47:23,840 --> 02:47:26,120
Speaker 3: you know, uh not a legal adult.

3289
02:47:26,840 --> 02:47:30,160
Speaker 2: Certain I believe in certain second chances for certain kinds

3290
02:47:30,200 --> 02:47:33,640
Speaker 2: of mistakes. I think perhaps if you murder your girlfriend's

3291
02:47:33,640 --> 02:47:35,920
Speaker 2: mom and then shoot a pawn shop owner during a

3292
02:47:36,000 --> 02:47:38,960
Speaker 2: robbery an avenue that we ought to close to you

3293
02:47:39,120 --> 02:47:43,879
Speaker 2: is representing the National Rifle Association, that's right. Maybe that's

3294
02:47:43,959 --> 02:47:44,560
Speaker 2: not okay?

3295
02:47:44,800 --> 02:47:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's like, listen, that guy

3296
02:47:47,760 --> 02:47:49,560
Speaker 3: explicitly does gun crimes.

3297
02:47:49,760 --> 02:47:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, for fun. This should not be his job.

3298
02:47:53,440 --> 02:47:56,199
Speaker 3: I want to know what happens with the with the

3299
02:47:56,200 --> 02:47:58,000
Speaker 3: the relationship.

3300
02:47:59,400 --> 02:48:02,120
Speaker 2: Actually after the murder of the mother. It must have

3301
02:48:02,200 --> 02:48:04,280
Speaker 2: been hard while she was his girlfriend, So I don't

3302
02:48:04,280 --> 02:48:08,560
Speaker 2: think they wind up staying together. Well damn yeah. It's like,

3303
02:48:08,600 --> 02:48:10,800
Speaker 2: you know, with Harlan Carter. I think a seventeen year

3304
02:48:10,840 --> 02:48:15,560
Speaker 2: old who, in a crime of racism, commits a murder,

3305
02:48:15,600 --> 02:48:18,080
Speaker 2: there should be some way for like that person to

3306
02:48:18,120 --> 02:48:21,160
Speaker 2: be rehabilitated. But perhaps they should never be allowed to

3307
02:48:21,160 --> 02:48:22,520
Speaker 2: be a border patrol officer.

3308
02:48:22,720 --> 02:48:26,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, there's like little things

3309
02:48:26,080 --> 02:48:30,960
Speaker 3: like not giving them I don't know, authority over other

3310
02:48:31,000 --> 02:48:35,920
Speaker 3: people or requiring them to use lethful force as of

3311
02:48:35,920 --> 02:48:36,400
Speaker 3: the job.

3312
02:48:36,640 --> 02:48:40,039
Speaker 2: And maybe the guy who murders his girlfriend's mom shouldn't

3313
02:48:40,840 --> 02:48:45,400
Speaker 2: help to be an architect of federal gun policy. I

3314
02:48:45,400 --> 02:48:47,120
Speaker 2: mean it just perhaps i'm that guy.

3315
02:48:47,600 --> 02:48:51,240
Speaker 3: It sounds rational, but you know what, I don't know.

3316
02:48:51,280 --> 02:48:53,720
Speaker 3: If that's yeah, I think it'll work out fine.

3317
02:48:54,040 --> 02:48:57,040
Speaker 2: I'm not even arguing against an individualist interpretation of the

3318
02:48:57,080 --> 02:49:00,240
Speaker 2: Second Amendment because again, I don't really believe that the

3319
02:49:00,280 --> 02:49:03,800
Speaker 2: Constitution is something that we should treat as a religious document.

3320
02:49:03,920 --> 02:49:06,640
Speaker 2: But not this guy, not this guy making that case.

3321
02:49:06,680 --> 02:49:09,320
Speaker 2: If you're got to make that case, maybe Ross Doublets

3322
02:49:09,320 --> 02:49:13,200
Speaker 2: shouldn't be the man doing it. Seems like not no,

3323
02:49:14,280 --> 02:49:17,600
Speaker 2: So that's cool. And the Boston Review article I found

3324
02:49:17,640 --> 02:49:19,360
Speaker 2: does a good job of pointing out that the NRAs

3325
02:49:19,400 --> 02:49:22,520
Speaker 2: embrace of this specific legal interpretation does not occur in

3326
02:49:22,560 --> 02:49:26,280
Speaker 2: a vacuum. While doubtlets A lawyers are making their case right,

3327
02:49:26,320 --> 02:49:28,160
Speaker 2: so while they're and again, this is a very it's

3328
02:49:28,160 --> 02:49:30,320
Speaker 2: a pain. It's forty years, it's a painstaking process of

3329
02:49:30,640 --> 02:49:34,760
Speaker 2: well not I guess twenty ish twenty three something like that.

3330
02:49:36,080 --> 02:49:38,440
Speaker 2: But while they're making their case, the NRA is carrying

3331
02:49:38,520 --> 02:49:41,240
Speaker 2: out mass mailing campaign, some of the most extensive and

3332
02:49:41,280 --> 02:49:45,360
Speaker 2: political history, and they're publishing magazines that reach millions of people.

3333
02:49:46,160 --> 02:49:48,400
Speaker 2: They're paying for ads and all of these different gun

3334
02:49:48,400 --> 02:49:51,120
Speaker 2: press magazines. They're having paid spokesmen show up and talk

3335
02:49:51,240 --> 02:49:55,800
Speaker 2: radio stations, right. And part of what they're doing they're

3336
02:49:55,800 --> 02:49:58,640
Speaker 2: obviously they're arguing for this interpretation of the Second Amendment,

3337
02:49:58,920 --> 02:50:02,040
Speaker 2: but they're also pushing cultural change what some scholars have

3338
02:50:02,680 --> 02:50:07,280
Speaker 2: termed the tactical turn in US gun culture again, even

3339
02:50:07,480 --> 02:50:10,440
Speaker 2: to the extent that like, oh, I mean, one thing

3340
02:50:10,480 --> 02:50:12,600
Speaker 2: that liberals get wrong is like it is not new

3341
02:50:12,720 --> 02:50:16,920
Speaker 2: for civilians to own on a widespread scale military grade weapons,

3342
02:50:17,080 --> 02:50:19,040
Speaker 2: among other things. One of the most popular guns in

3343
02:50:19,080 --> 02:50:22,960
Speaker 2: civilian hands that the NRA before its political turn sold

3344
02:50:22,959 --> 02:50:24,800
Speaker 2: to people was the M one Garrant, which was the

3345
02:50:24,920 --> 02:50:28,560
Speaker 2: US service rifle of World War Two. Right, But what

3346
02:50:28,720 --> 02:50:33,200
Speaker 2: is really new is that it's is this kind of

3347
02:50:33,320 --> 02:50:36,800
Speaker 2: paramilitary turn for gun owners because people were not buying

3348
02:50:36,840 --> 02:50:39,920
Speaker 2: in one gharans primarily to like play act as soldiers.

3349
02:50:39,959 --> 02:50:41,520
Speaker 2: They were buying them because the garrant is a perfectly

3350
02:50:41,520 --> 02:50:43,720
Speaker 2: good hunting rifle. Right, it is thirty out to six,

3351
02:50:43,720 --> 02:50:47,120
Speaker 2: which is a very effective hunting round. And those were cheap, right,

3352
02:50:47,160 --> 02:50:49,039
Speaker 2: so it was a good weapon to buy. So people

3353
02:50:49,080 --> 02:50:53,039
Speaker 2: are not dressing up as soldiers with their in one

3354
02:50:53,080 --> 02:50:57,520
Speaker 2: gharans primarily, right, that kind of stuff, the tactical turn

3355
02:50:57,640 --> 02:51:02,720
Speaker 2: in US gun culture occurs. But because it occurs alongside

3356
02:51:02,920 --> 02:51:06,160
Speaker 2: the militarization of the police and these kind of Hollywood

3357
02:51:06,240 --> 02:51:09,920
Speaker 2: valorization of the militarization of police. So there's a lot

3358
02:51:09,959 --> 02:51:13,360
Speaker 2: that's going on here, right, and including like broadly speaking,

3359
02:51:13,400 --> 02:51:16,119
Speaker 2: the kind of like you could you also should tie

3360
02:51:16,120 --> 02:51:18,840
Speaker 2: in what Hollywood's partnership with the Defense Department, right, and

3361
02:51:18,879 --> 02:51:23,200
Speaker 2: the increasing degree to which like military tactical culture becomes

3362
02:51:23,200 --> 02:51:28,600
Speaker 2: like popularized. But the NRA recognizes, like this is there's

3363
02:51:28,600 --> 02:51:30,240
Speaker 2: a lot of promise in this number one. You can

3364
02:51:30,280 --> 02:51:33,440
Speaker 2: get more people involved, you can sell more shit to people,

3365
02:51:33,440 --> 02:51:36,280
Speaker 2: which means you can have more companies funding the NRA

3366
02:51:36,440 --> 02:51:38,000
Speaker 2: who are not selling much as guns, but all this

3367
02:51:38,080 --> 02:51:41,520
Speaker 2: tactical gear. I'm going to read a quote again from

3368
02:51:41,560 --> 02:51:43,760
Speaker 2: that Boston Review article, and it's quite long, but it

3369
02:51:43,800 --> 02:51:47,600
Speaker 2: really ties all of this together. Quote, the story of

3370
02:51:47,600 --> 02:51:50,280
Speaker 2: this tactical development in US gun culture is complex. I

3371
02:51:50,320 --> 02:51:53,360
Speaker 2: focus in this essay on a few particularly crucial components.

3372
02:51:53,640 --> 02:51:56,600
Speaker 2: The first is that border enforcement has been increasingly militarized

3373
02:51:56,640 --> 02:51:59,400
Speaker 2: since the nineteen seventies and diffused deeper into the interior

3374
02:51:59,440 --> 02:52:01,920
Speaker 2: of the country. This has blurred the boundary between domestic

3375
02:52:01,959 --> 02:52:04,880
Speaker 2: and foreign conflict, brought the use of exceptional police powers

3376
02:52:04,920 --> 02:52:08,560
Speaker 2: into nearly every US town, and turned militarized border security

3377
02:52:08,600 --> 02:52:13,080
Speaker 2: into a ubiquitous mechanization of radicalization. This has also corresponded

3378
02:52:13,080 --> 02:52:15,920
Speaker 2: with the militarization of local police forces, which was certainly

3379
02:52:15,920 --> 02:52:18,680
Speaker 2: worsened by the War on Terror, but which historian Elizabeth

3380
02:52:18,720 --> 02:52:21,680
Speaker 2: Hinton has identified as having deeper roots in the Johnson

3381
02:52:21,720 --> 02:52:25,040
Speaker 2: administration's War on crime, which ports the NRA backs, like

3382
02:52:25,160 --> 02:52:28,560
Speaker 2: the nationalization of border security, it turned the nation's city

3383
02:52:28,600 --> 02:52:33,160
Speaker 2: streets into sites of militarized racial enforcement. Second, individuals once

3384
02:52:33,280 --> 02:52:35,959
Speaker 2: arming themselves for self defense, often out of racial fears

3385
02:52:36,040 --> 02:52:39,080
Speaker 2: or a perceived threat to their masculinity, are now frequently

3386
02:52:39,080 --> 02:52:41,280
Speaker 2: claiming to do so in defense of the Constitution and

3387
02:52:41,320 --> 02:52:44,400
Speaker 2: freedom itself. The NRA has played an outsized role in

3388
02:52:44,440 --> 02:52:48,160
Speaker 2: this vigilante reframing by promuligating the myth that gun ownership

3389
02:52:48,160 --> 02:52:52,119
Speaker 2: has always been about an individual constitutional right and oriented

3390
02:52:52,160 --> 02:52:55,879
Speaker 2: towards a nativist version of self defense. This vigilantism operates

3391
02:52:55,879 --> 02:52:59,400
Speaker 2: in conjunction with extra legal violence of law enforcement officers,

3392
02:52:59,400 --> 02:53:02,560
Speaker 2: and is fueled by an individualist notion of sovereignty. More

3393
02:53:02,640 --> 02:53:06,039
Speaker 2: dangerous than any military grade weaponry. It rejects the freedom

3394
02:53:06,080 --> 02:53:08,080
Speaker 2: of others is equal to one's own, and views any

3395
02:53:08,080 --> 02:53:11,440
Speaker 2: attempt to support such a quality as tyranny. More importantly,

3396
02:53:11,480 --> 02:53:14,240
Speaker 2: this sovereignty is assumed to grant the individual the power

3397
02:53:14,280 --> 02:53:16,760
Speaker 2: to take life in defense not of law, but of

3398
02:53:16,800 --> 02:53:20,680
Speaker 2: particular social and racial orders. There are now twenty five

3399
02:53:20,720 --> 02:53:23,840
Speaker 2: federal agencies with special tactical units. In May of June

3400
02:53:23,840 --> 02:53:26,760
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty alone, sixteen deployed their tactical teams to

3401
02:53:26,760 --> 02:53:29,879
Speaker 2: Black Lives Matter protests, including the Border Patrol, the Bureau

3402
02:53:29,920 --> 02:53:32,840
Speaker 2: of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the Bureau of Prisons, the

3403
02:53:32,920 --> 02:53:35,280
Speaker 2: US Marshals, the US Coast Guard. In every one of

3404
02:53:35,320 --> 02:53:38,440
Speaker 2: the FBI's fifty six field offices, and at the local

3405
02:53:38,520 --> 02:53:41,440
Speaker 2: law enforcement level, special weapons and Tactics SWAT units are

3406
02:53:41,440 --> 02:53:44,720
Speaker 2: now a staple of daily policing. Their very ordinariness is

3407
02:53:44,720 --> 02:53:47,640
Speaker 2: to a testament to how dramatically local policing has changed

3408
02:53:47,680 --> 02:53:50,520
Speaker 2: since nineteen sixty nine, when a swat unit was first

3409
02:53:50,600 --> 02:53:53,840
Speaker 2: used to raise the Black Panther headquarters in Los Angeles,

3410
02:53:53,879 --> 02:53:57,000
Speaker 2: pioneering what was at the time an almost unprecedented domestic

3411
02:53:57,080 --> 02:54:01,080
Speaker 2: use of military force. In Carter's victory speech, he declared,

3412
02:54:01,440 --> 02:54:03,800
Speaker 2: beginning in this place, in this hour, this period in

3413
02:54:03,920 --> 02:54:07,520
Speaker 2: NRA history is finished. The post nineteen seventy seven, NRA

3414
02:54:07,760 --> 02:54:11,439
Speaker 2: was decidedly partisan, took an absolute position against gun regulation,

3415
02:54:11,720 --> 02:54:14,640
Speaker 2: and redoubled its efforts to cultivate a social identity and

3416
02:54:14,720 --> 02:54:21,080
Speaker 2: authoritarian political ideology among its members. God damn, yeah, God,

3417
02:54:21,920 --> 02:54:22,560
Speaker 2: it all out like that.

3418
02:54:22,720 --> 02:54:27,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all of that in a row and concisely done.

3419
02:54:27,280 --> 02:54:33,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, fucked up. Yeah, And it's again. I I there.

3420
02:54:34,680 --> 02:54:37,120
Speaker 2: Some of our listenership will agree and some will disagree.

3421
02:54:37,400 --> 02:54:41,920
Speaker 2: I'm a believer fundamentally that I don't like the idea

3422
02:54:41,920 --> 02:54:43,959
Speaker 2: of the state having a monopoly on violence, and I

3423
02:54:43,959 --> 02:54:45,880
Speaker 2: certainly don't like the idea of the police being able

3424
02:54:45,920 --> 02:54:51,400
Speaker 2: to own things that I cannot own. Sure, and there's

3425
02:54:51,480 --> 02:54:54,200
Speaker 2: there's an argument to be made, if you're again care

3426
02:54:54,240 --> 02:54:56,920
Speaker 2: about being an originalist, that is close to the original

3427
02:54:56,920 --> 02:55:02,360
Speaker 2: interpretation of the Second Amendment, right, what part of what by?

3428
02:55:02,640 --> 02:55:04,600
Speaker 2: And they're claiming to be originalists, they're claiming to be

3429
02:55:04,720 --> 02:55:08,000
Speaker 2: that the that the initial original interpretation was individualists. But

3430
02:55:08,160 --> 02:55:11,920
Speaker 2: what they're doing that for is not any idea of

3431
02:55:12,920 --> 02:55:17,119
Speaker 2: community self defense or a fear that the federal government

3432
02:55:17,160 --> 02:55:20,000
Speaker 2: will accumulate too much power, although it's often framed that way.

3433
02:55:20,400 --> 02:55:27,800
Speaker 2: Fundamentally it is about allowing regular white citizens to emulate

3434
02:55:28,520 --> 02:55:31,920
Speaker 2: the military and the police and to act as vigilantes

3435
02:55:31,959 --> 02:55:35,000
Speaker 2: in their stead right. That is where the NRA turns,

3436
02:55:35,080 --> 02:55:38,040
Speaker 2: and that is that is the tactical turn. Right. It's

3437
02:55:38,040 --> 02:55:40,600
Speaker 2: not that there's nothing evil about owning body armour, which

3438
02:55:40,680 --> 02:55:43,920
Speaker 2: people can do for defense, perfectly reasonable defensive purposes. There's

3439
02:55:43,959 --> 02:55:48,560
Speaker 2: nothing like but but what what they're what they're doing

3440
02:55:48,800 --> 02:55:53,640
Speaker 2: is pushing this idea of like, not just the miliity,

3441
02:55:53,760 --> 02:55:56,320
Speaker 2: not just that like society ought to be militarized, which

3442
02:55:56,360 --> 02:55:58,240
Speaker 2: you get in every kind of argument that like what

3443
02:55:58,280 --> 02:55:59,680
Speaker 2: we need to do is harden the schools, we need

3444
02:55:59,720 --> 02:56:03,039
Speaker 2: to add more cops. But it's this idea that the

3445
02:56:03,200 --> 02:56:08,840
Speaker 2: individual white person should militarize themselves in order to in

3446
02:56:08,959 --> 02:56:13,960
Speaker 2: order to protect this kind of racial hierarchy, right, supremacy,

3447
02:56:14,360 --> 02:56:16,760
Speaker 2: And this is and this is the thing. This is

3448
02:56:17,080 --> 02:56:20,199
Speaker 2: what I wish folks who are supportive of more gun

3449
02:56:20,240 --> 02:56:24,440
Speaker 2: control would more often do, is tie in all of

3450
02:56:24,480 --> 02:56:26,760
Speaker 2: this to what has happened to the police, because they

3451
02:56:26,800 --> 02:56:30,480
Speaker 2: cannot be extricated, right, Yeah, And that's I think Avaldi

3452
02:56:30,640 --> 02:56:34,320
Speaker 2: made that perfectly clear, that like, these are two sides

3453
02:56:34,440 --> 02:56:39,320
Speaker 2: of the problem, and and the NRA is a huge

3454
02:56:39,360 --> 02:56:41,199
Speaker 2: part of how we get there both how we get

3455
02:56:41,400 --> 02:56:44,960
Speaker 2: these cops that look indistinguishable from like marines in downtown Fallusia.

3456
02:56:45,120 --> 02:56:47,240
Speaker 2: Not that I think the Marines necessarily should have been

3457
02:56:47,240 --> 02:56:53,360
Speaker 2: in downtown Fallusiah, but you you have these guys. It's

3458
02:56:53,400 --> 02:56:56,160
Speaker 2: this There's this thing called the weapons effect, right, and

3459
02:56:56,320 --> 02:56:59,480
Speaker 2: which is a psychological phenomenon that's noted that like the

3460
02:56:59,560 --> 02:57:04,520
Speaker 2: presence of weapons in an area, visible weapons can increase

3461
02:57:04,600 --> 02:57:07,320
Speaker 2: the willingness of people to use violence, right that there's

3462
02:57:07,360 --> 02:57:11,879
Speaker 2: like something about that that heightens it. And that's happening here.

3463
02:57:11,920 --> 02:57:14,000
Speaker 2: And part of why that happens is just the fact

3464
02:57:14,040 --> 02:57:17,720
Speaker 2: that America has so many goddamn guns, right, right. But

3465
02:57:17,800 --> 02:57:20,920
Speaker 2: another part of that is the fact that everywhere you

3466
02:57:21,000 --> 02:57:23,280
Speaker 2: go you see fucking cops in a way that like,

3467
02:57:23,600 --> 02:57:25,640
Speaker 2: you don't see cops dressed as armed as heavily as

3468
02:57:25,680 --> 02:57:28,040
Speaker 2: our cops in fucking war zones a lot of the time, right,

3469
02:57:28,360 --> 02:57:36,320
Speaker 2: Like it's it's anyway whatever, No, that's what Ireland Carter builds,

3470
02:57:36,360 --> 02:57:36,560
Speaker 2: you know.

3471
02:57:36,959 --> 02:57:40,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I I hear exactly what you're saying, and

3472
02:57:40,320 --> 02:57:46,720
Speaker 3: I I agree to an extent with with what you mean.

3473
02:57:46,920 --> 02:57:50,240
Speaker 3: I feel like, in general, my problem with liberals is

3474
02:57:50,280 --> 02:57:55,080
Speaker 3: that they tend to kind of like put guns in

3475
02:57:55,120 --> 02:57:58,720
Speaker 3: the same category, Like they moralize guns the way they

3476
02:57:58,760 --> 02:58:02,320
Speaker 3: moralize like the right it will moralize drugs, yes, and

3477
02:58:02,560 --> 02:58:08,320
Speaker 3: kind of this idea that like, you know, if we

3478
02:58:08,320 --> 02:58:11,119
Speaker 3: were to just make all the guns illegal, then you know,

3479
02:58:11,200 --> 02:58:13,480
Speaker 3: this would solve the problem and whatnot. And that's not

3480
02:58:13,520 --> 02:58:16,720
Speaker 3: to say that it there isn't it wouldn't be helped

3481
02:58:16,720 --> 02:58:21,400
Speaker 3: if you had some serious regulation. But this like moralization

3482
02:58:21,480 --> 02:58:24,840
Speaker 3: of it like misses the entire point of why exactly

3483
02:58:25,280 --> 02:58:28,640
Speaker 3: the uh why the people who want guns and have

3484
02:58:28,760 --> 02:58:31,520
Speaker 3: those guns have them? You know, it's like, yeah, you're

3485
02:58:31,840 --> 02:58:34,880
Speaker 3: the people you're speaking to, are not it's people speaking

3486
02:58:34,879 --> 02:58:37,680
Speaker 3: to the choir. Liberals often just speak to themselves and

3487
02:58:37,720 --> 02:58:41,080
Speaker 3: go like, uh, isn't it crazy that you know, all

3488
02:58:41,080 --> 02:58:43,560
Speaker 3: these people have so many guns, and it's like, yeah, well,

3489
02:58:44,120 --> 02:58:47,400
Speaker 3: while you're talking amongst yourselves, all these guys have created

3490
02:58:47,440 --> 02:58:50,080
Speaker 3: an entire family filled with guns.

3491
02:58:50,560 --> 02:58:52,840
Speaker 2: And it's like looking at these right wing like militias

3492
02:58:52,840 --> 02:58:55,560
Speaker 2: that people are rightly like concerned to see militias marching

3493
02:58:55,600 --> 02:58:59,760
Speaker 2: around US streets like threatening people, and but also failing

3494
02:58:59,800 --> 02:59:01,720
Speaker 2: to see the thing that is, like, well, every one

3495
02:59:01,760 --> 02:59:03,720
Speaker 2: of those guys has friends who are cops, and like

3496
02:59:03,800 --> 02:59:06,240
Speaker 2: a significant percentage of them are cops, which is why

3497
02:59:06,280 --> 02:59:09,080
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of cops were president January sixth, And

3498
02:59:09,120 --> 02:59:11,320
Speaker 2: that's a huge chunk of it. And like, you can't

3499
02:59:11,640 --> 02:59:14,840
Speaker 2: you can't divorce your desire to reduce the number of

3500
02:59:14,840 --> 02:59:17,280
Speaker 2: guns in American culture from the need to reduce the

3501
02:59:17,280 --> 02:59:20,720
Speaker 2: militarization of the police, because they are both inextricably tied

3502
02:59:20,720 --> 02:59:24,400
Speaker 2: to the problem, which is the constant gun violence in

3503
02:59:24,440 --> 02:59:27,879
Speaker 2: this country. Has has two points that need to be

3504
02:59:27,920 --> 02:59:31,880
Speaker 2: really like hit on. It's not just civilian gun ownership,

3505
02:59:31,920 --> 02:59:34,840
Speaker 2: it's also the way in which the state uses and

3506
02:59:34,959 --> 02:59:37,640
Speaker 2: legitimates armed force, going back to even the earliest days

3507
02:59:37,680 --> 02:59:40,280
Speaker 2: where it's like yeah, in Texas, your right to carry

3508
02:59:40,320 --> 02:59:42,119
Speaker 2: guns was heavily restricted, but if you were a white

3509
02:59:42,200 --> 02:59:44,880
Speaker 2: vigilante who carried guns to do racist violence, you would

3510
02:59:44,879 --> 02:59:47,600
Speaker 2: often get off right and though you'd broken the law,

3511
02:59:47,720 --> 02:59:52,600
Speaker 2: right like Harlan Carter, you know. Anyway, under Harlan Carter,

3512
02:59:52,640 --> 02:59:55,160
Speaker 2: the NRA's membership triples from one million to more than

3513
02:59:55,240 --> 02:59:59,199
Speaker 2: three million. It would reach five million members underwayn Lapierre. Obviously,

3514
02:59:59,200 --> 03:00:01,039
Speaker 2: the NRA going to get into this a lot, but

3515
03:00:01,080 --> 03:00:03,560
Speaker 2: it's like well past its prime at this point for

3516
03:00:03,840 --> 03:00:07,800
Speaker 2: a variety of reasons, of primarily rampant corruption. There's a

3517
03:00:07,800 --> 03:00:10,560
Speaker 2: pretty good podcast about like what the fuck happened there?

3518
03:00:10,600 --> 03:00:13,240
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's to Pod Yourself a Gun, a Sopranos

3519
03:00:13,280 --> 03:00:14,320
Speaker 3: podcast sect.

3520
03:00:14,360 --> 03:00:18,640
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. So the NRA tops out at about five

3521
03:00:18,680 --> 03:00:21,920
Speaker 2: million members, but as of twenty seventeen, about fourteen million

3522
03:00:21,959 --> 03:00:24,879
Speaker 2: Americans claimed some sort of affinity for the organization, And

3523
03:00:25,080 --> 03:00:28,600
Speaker 2: I forget who did the poll, but whatever. And one

3524
03:00:28,640 --> 03:00:31,119
Speaker 2: of the things that's interesting here is that like that's

3525
03:00:31,120 --> 03:00:32,959
Speaker 2: like a lot of people to get around anything, but

3526
03:00:33,000 --> 03:00:34,880
Speaker 2: that's also not a lot of people. Is a voting

3527
03:00:34,879 --> 03:00:38,400
Speaker 2: block compared to the entirety of the United States, right, yeah, yeah,

3528
03:00:38,400 --> 03:00:39,959
Speaker 2: And so looking at that, you have to kind of

3529
03:00:40,000 --> 03:00:43,240
Speaker 2: marvel at the success of the LDRA in making their

3530
03:00:43,280 --> 03:00:46,400
Speaker 2: ideas a cornerstone of right wing politics, because I was

3531
03:00:46,480 --> 03:00:49,280
Speaker 2: just thinking myself, that seems like a low number. It's right,

3532
03:00:49,320 --> 03:00:51,720
Speaker 2: because again, if you look at actually polling of Republicans

3533
03:00:51,720 --> 03:00:56,160
Speaker 2: on gun control issues, they are a lot less hardliners

3534
03:00:56,160 --> 03:00:59,320
Speaker 2: on guns. Then you would guess by how the party acts.

3535
03:00:59,360 --> 03:01:02,800
Speaker 2: And it's because the party's ability to fund elections for

3536
03:01:02,959 --> 03:01:06,200
Speaker 2: decades was heavily based on who could get the NRA's approval, right, yeah,

3537
03:01:06,400 --> 03:01:11,320
Speaker 2: god exactly. In twenty sixteen, they spent more than thirty

3538
03:01:11,320 --> 03:01:14,800
Speaker 2: million dollars on Donald Trump's campaign. And this again people

3539
03:01:14,840 --> 03:01:18,360
Speaker 2: often miss this, Like my parents are were hardcore right wingers, right,

3540
03:01:18,400 --> 03:01:21,119
Speaker 2: So it was my whole family. I had like two

3541
03:01:21,160 --> 03:01:23,560
Speaker 2: relatives who owned guns, like my grandpa and one of

3542
03:01:23,600 --> 03:01:26,000
Speaker 2: my uncles, right, And I did go shooting as a kid,

3543
03:01:26,040 --> 03:01:27,920
Speaker 2: but my parents didn't have any. My aunt and uncle

3544
03:01:27,920 --> 03:01:29,720
Speaker 2: didn't have any. There were not guns in the house

3545
03:01:29,879 --> 03:01:34,800
Speaker 2: of my family in Texas, you know, because like it's

3546
03:01:34,840 --> 03:01:38,440
Speaker 2: actually not as integral to conservatism as a as a

3547
03:01:38,440 --> 03:01:40,320
Speaker 2: at least I mean, this is again changed because the

3548
03:01:40,320 --> 03:01:43,640
Speaker 2: culture wars have accelerated so like, yes, is that there's

3549
03:01:43,720 --> 03:01:45,920
Speaker 2: less conservatives like the ones I grew up with when

3550
03:01:45,920 --> 03:01:48,480
Speaker 2: they were right there were today, but the NRA. It

3551
03:01:48,560 --> 03:01:51,000
Speaker 2: wasn't that everyone on the right was in lockstep. It's

3552
03:01:51,000 --> 03:01:53,440
Speaker 2: that the elected leaders were scared to cross them because

3553
03:01:53,440 --> 03:01:55,520
Speaker 2: that's where the fucking money came from. Right now, of course,

3554
03:01:55,959 --> 03:01:58,560
Speaker 2: that's why they were able to read will power so effectively.

3555
03:01:59,560 --> 03:02:02,360
Speaker 2: One of them most peculiar but also influential aspects of

3556
03:02:02,360 --> 03:02:05,560
Speaker 2: Harlan's time and power was his repeated and intense defense

3557
03:02:05,840 --> 03:02:08,560
Speaker 2: of cheap shitty handguns. And this gets us to the

3558
03:02:08,600 --> 03:02:14,240
Speaker 2: Saturday Night Special. Here we go, Saturday Night Special. In brief, like,

3559
03:02:14,320 --> 03:02:18,240
Speaker 2: there's a type of handgun that was very cheap in

3560
03:02:18,280 --> 03:02:20,800
Speaker 2: the seventies up through in the eighties and stuff called

3561
03:02:20,840 --> 03:02:23,560
Speaker 2: a Saturday It was nicknamed the Saturday Night Special. It's

3562
03:02:23,600 --> 03:02:26,840
Speaker 2: like a five or six shot usually thirty eight caliber handgun.

3563
03:02:27,720 --> 03:02:30,320
Speaker 2: These are still guns like this are still used in

3564
03:02:30,440 --> 03:02:33,320
Speaker 2: violent crime way more often than like the guns that

3565
03:02:33,360 --> 03:02:36,960
Speaker 2: are politicized, like, cheap handguns in general are the primary

3566
03:02:37,080 --> 03:02:41,680
Speaker 2: guns that are used in violent gun crime. Although what

3567
03:02:42,200 --> 03:02:44,760
Speaker 2: is a cheap shitty handgun is different now because actually

3568
03:02:45,080 --> 03:02:47,200
Speaker 2: six shot revolvers are kind of pricey these days. It's

3569
03:02:47,240 --> 03:02:51,320
Speaker 2: supposed to like a high point or something. But yeah,

3570
03:02:51,320 --> 03:02:54,080
Speaker 2: so this is a cheap, shitty handgun, and these are

3571
03:02:54,120 --> 03:02:57,800
Speaker 2: particularly low quality handguns. They were not like well made.

3572
03:02:57,879 --> 03:03:01,520
Speaker 2: As a general rule, they always work. They did not

3573
03:03:01,600 --> 03:03:04,640
Speaker 2: always we are yet that's that we're building to that, Okay,

3574
03:03:05,480 --> 03:03:08,440
Speaker 2: umping the gun. So you have this massive crime rate

3575
03:03:08,760 --> 03:03:12,040
Speaker 2: raised and starts in the seventies and really like peaks

3576
03:03:12,080 --> 03:03:15,119
Speaker 2: in the early nineties. And again a lot of Joe

3577
03:03:15,160 --> 03:03:18,320
Speaker 2: Biden's career is based off of this like violent crime

3578
03:03:18,320 --> 03:03:20,680
Speaker 2: panic that starts in this period. And one of the

3579
03:03:20,720 --> 03:03:25,680
Speaker 2: first like legislative like tsunamis that forms around the crime

3580
03:03:25,720 --> 03:03:28,480
Speaker 2: surge is around this fear of the Saturday Night Special.

3581
03:03:29,040 --> 03:03:33,039
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why people are so scared

3582
03:03:33,200 --> 03:03:35,440
Speaker 2: of the Saturday Night Special is that it is a

3583
03:03:35,440 --> 03:03:38,560
Speaker 2: gun that black people can afford, right, right, It is

3584
03:03:38,600 --> 03:03:41,600
Speaker 2: a cheap handgun, and so it is affordable for those folks.

3585
03:03:42,920 --> 03:03:47,119
Speaker 2: Harlan Carter opposed new legislation to ban this Saturday Night Special,

3586
03:03:48,000 --> 03:03:49,680
Speaker 2: although he didn't do it on the grounds that poor

3587
03:03:49,720 --> 03:03:53,640
Speaker 2: people deserved firearms, but fascinatingly on the grounds that they

3588
03:03:53,640 --> 03:03:56,720
Speaker 2: were shitty and broke easily. And this is one of

3589
03:03:56,720 --> 03:03:59,480
Speaker 2: the most incredible arguments I've ever heard from the from

3590
03:03:59,600 --> 03:04:02,720
Speaker 2: NRA on therecord dot org quote. Speaking in opposition to

3591
03:04:02,959 --> 03:04:05,840
Speaker 2: opposition to legislation that aimed to ban Saturday Night Specials

3592
03:04:05,879 --> 03:04:09,080
Speaker 2: and other inexpensively produced handguns, Carter stated in a nineteen

3593
03:04:09,120 --> 03:04:11,879
Speaker 2: seventy two speech before the inter Raised Executive Committee, I

3594
03:04:11,920 --> 03:04:14,720
Speaker 2: can produce actual cases that the cheap handgun that snaps

3595
03:04:14,720 --> 03:04:17,480
Speaker 2: in a police officer's face instead of firing has saved many,

3596
03:04:17,520 --> 03:04:20,440
Speaker 2: many lives. And the question arises, what are we trying

3597
03:04:20,440 --> 03:04:22,879
Speaker 2: to do upgrade the quality of handguns in the hands

3598
03:04:22,879 --> 03:04:27,960
Speaker 2: of our criminals. God, that's an amazing logical argument. Yeah.

3599
03:04:28,000 --> 03:04:30,400
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like he has a point, a really

3600
03:04:30,480 --> 03:04:34,000
Speaker 3: fucked up evil point. And it's also he's getting straight

3601
03:04:34,480 --> 03:04:37,440
Speaker 3: to i mean, the crux of it here, which is

3602
03:04:37,520 --> 03:04:40,400
Speaker 3: like he's lucky to be in a situation in which

3603
03:04:40,440 --> 03:04:42,600
Speaker 3: he can claim like, oh, actually, I don't want to

3604
03:04:42,600 --> 03:04:45,960
Speaker 3: ban this because this makes me feel safer to know

3605
03:04:46,040 --> 03:04:50,920
Speaker 3: that they have, you know, the poor their quality of

3606
03:04:51,000 --> 03:04:51,680
Speaker 3: handguns is.

3607
03:04:52,560 --> 03:04:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's way worse. Yeah, there's a lot, there's a

3608
03:04:55,520 --> 03:04:58,160
Speaker 2: lot that's messy on this whole thing. But it is

3609
03:04:58,320 --> 03:05:00,520
Speaker 2: very funny, and it's going to d up getting a

3610
03:05:00,560 --> 03:05:04,080
Speaker 2: lot of people killed, not necessarily, not just from violence.

3611
03:05:04,120 --> 03:05:06,959
Speaker 2: A lot of people are going to die because of

3612
03:05:07,080 --> 03:05:09,840
Speaker 2: Carter's defensive terrible handguns and where it leads. But before

3613
03:05:09,840 --> 03:05:12,280
Speaker 2: we get into that, you know who else loves shitty

3614
03:05:12,320 --> 03:05:21,360
Speaker 2: handguns that break in their owner's hands and they, I'm sorry,

3615
03:05:21,400 --> 03:05:26,840
Speaker 2: Sophie absolutely loves it. Motto is we want you to

3616
03:05:26,840 --> 03:05:28,760
Speaker 2: be armed, and we want you to never know if

3617
03:05:28,800 --> 03:05:32,560
Speaker 2: that gun's going to fire or not. Yeah, completely inexplicable.

3618
03:05:32,560 --> 03:05:36,359
Speaker 2: We want a weapon that you cannot trust under any circumstances,

3619
03:05:36,360 --> 03:05:42,240
Speaker 2: that's guarantee. Remove drop safeties from handguns, let them free.

3620
03:05:42,560 --> 03:05:45,800
Speaker 3: You know I enjoy this because I am watching Sophie

3621
03:05:46,040 --> 03:05:49,360
Speaker 3: just shaking her head every time you do this bit.

3622
03:05:50,040 --> 03:05:53,840
Speaker 2: She hates it. She You're so angry.

3623
03:05:53,879 --> 03:05:55,080
Speaker 1: Do you know why I hate it?

3624
03:05:55,480 --> 03:05:56,280
Speaker 2: Why is that, Sophie?

3625
03:05:56,360 --> 03:06:00,680
Speaker 1: Because there's like fifty Reddit threads of people being wait,

3626
03:06:00,959 --> 03:06:01,560
Speaker 1: what is this?

3627
03:06:01,640 --> 03:06:04,400
Speaker 2: I've never read about who has a child hunting?

3628
03:06:05,240 --> 03:06:09,199
Speaker 4: And I just it just feels like betrayal to our listeners.

3629
03:06:09,600 --> 03:06:11,920
Speaker 1: I love most of my heart.

3630
03:06:12,320 --> 03:06:15,840
Speaker 2: I like fucking with them. Yeah, I feel the same

3631
03:06:15,840 --> 03:06:17,640
Speaker 2: way towards them that I do with my cat when

3632
03:06:17,640 --> 03:06:19,520
Speaker 2: I like, I like pick it up and I like

3633
03:06:19,560 --> 03:06:21,120
Speaker 2: toss it in the air, and it hates it. But

3634
03:06:21,160 --> 03:06:24,000
Speaker 2: it can't. It can't. It has to let me like

3635
03:06:24,360 --> 03:06:26,959
Speaker 2: squeeze it and wrap it in a blanket. And it's

3636
03:06:26,959 --> 03:06:29,760
Speaker 2: called rent. It's called paying rent. Yeah, that's right, motherfucker.

3637
03:06:30,000 --> 03:06:32,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, you got to be adorable for me. Sometimes your

3638
03:06:32,920 --> 03:06:36,840
Speaker 3: fear makes me smile. I feel the same way about

3639
03:06:36,840 --> 03:06:37,440
Speaker 3: our piggies.

3640
03:06:37,640 --> 03:06:37,840
Speaker 2: You know.

3641
03:06:38,040 --> 03:06:40,560
Speaker 3: Everyone, it's like you feed the slot to the piggies

3642
03:06:40,600 --> 03:06:41,680
Speaker 3: and you let them wink.

3643
03:06:42,400 --> 03:06:46,440
Speaker 2: But it's you're the farmer. Remember that's right, you're the farmer. Well,

3644
03:06:46,440 --> 03:06:47,160
Speaker 2: I'm the farmer.

3645
03:06:47,560 --> 03:06:49,040
Speaker 3: You are, yes, exactly.

3646
03:06:49,720 --> 03:06:51,760
Speaker 4: Remember, don't do that to the goats. I don't think

3647
03:06:51,760 --> 03:06:52,840
Speaker 4: it'll work out. Work out.

3648
03:06:52,879 --> 03:06:55,360
Speaker 2: Well, it's really fun to fuck with the goats if

3649
03:06:55,400 --> 03:06:57,600
Speaker 2: you pick them up, like they don't know what to

3650
03:06:57,600 --> 03:06:59,400
Speaker 2: do with their little legs and they just like kick

3651
03:06:59,440 --> 03:07:01,560
Speaker 2: in the air and you can hug them all.

3652
03:07:02,840 --> 03:07:03,400
Speaker 3: I love it.

3653
03:07:03,600 --> 03:07:08,040
Speaker 2: They go except for my boy goat. He's the ram.

3654
03:07:08,120 --> 03:07:10,320
Speaker 2: He loves it. He fucking as soon as he sees

3655
03:07:10,360 --> 03:07:12,879
Speaker 2: you will run up because he wants to get cuddled. Damned.

3656
03:07:12,959 --> 03:07:24,120
Speaker 2: His sister hates it. But yeah, anyway, we're back. So

3657
03:07:24,160 --> 03:07:27,240
Speaker 2: before we get onto the consequences of Harlan Carter's embrace

3658
03:07:27,320 --> 03:07:31,360
Speaker 2: of terrible, unsafe firearms, let's talk about his defense of

3659
03:07:31,440 --> 03:07:35,360
Speaker 2: the virtues of arming small children with derringers. Now, Matt,

3660
03:07:35,720 --> 03:07:38,680
Speaker 2: he's not a gun guy. The derringer is a tiny,

3661
03:07:38,760 --> 03:07:42,320
Speaker 2: ultraconcealable one or two shot pistol. They were originally made

3662
03:07:42,320 --> 03:07:45,760
Speaker 2: for Riverbroat gamblers, as documented in the documentary Maffick.

3663
03:07:46,560 --> 03:07:48,600
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure I know exactly right.

3664
03:07:48,959 --> 03:07:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like little little bitty like yeah.

3665
03:07:52,080 --> 03:07:54,440
Speaker 3: Well, hot girl guns. This is the way I think

3666
03:07:54,440 --> 03:07:54,600
Speaker 3: of it.

3667
03:07:55,080 --> 03:07:58,440
Speaker 2: Here's something he said to Congress. There was a little

3668
03:07:58,440 --> 03:08:00,240
Speaker 2: boy and it was real cold, and he had his

3669
03:08:00,240 --> 03:08:02,000
Speaker 2: hands in his overcoat. He had one of these little

3670
03:08:02,000 --> 03:08:04,640
Speaker 2: old arangers, and four bushy guys ambled up in an

3671
03:08:04,760 --> 03:08:07,120
Speaker 2: arrogant manner. He stopped them, and three of them were

3672
03:08:07,200 --> 03:08:09,280
Speaker 2: very nice and decent, and one of them said, what

3673
03:08:09,320 --> 03:08:10,640
Speaker 2: would you do if I told you I had a

3674
03:08:10,640 --> 03:08:12,959
Speaker 2: pistol and I was going to kill you? And he says,

3675
03:08:13,040 --> 03:08:15,320
Speaker 2: I would kill you, you son of a bunch. These

3676
03:08:15,320 --> 03:08:17,879
Speaker 2: little guns have a very noble and important purpose and

3677
03:08:17,920 --> 03:08:19,320
Speaker 2: we should make our position clear.

3678
03:08:19,600 --> 03:08:23,840
Speaker 3: God, that is the first recorded incident of like someone

3679
03:08:23,920 --> 03:08:27,440
Speaker 3: being like my five year old just said, Daddy, why

3680
03:08:27,480 --> 03:08:30,080
Speaker 3: does Trump do the bad thing? And I couldn't explain.

3681
03:08:30,160 --> 03:08:32,960
Speaker 3: It's like a totally fake story that did nothing.

3682
03:08:33,040 --> 03:08:35,560
Speaker 2: There's absolutely no way this happened. But also none of

3683
03:08:35,560 --> 03:08:38,200
Speaker 2: it makes it Like, what does it mean by their bushy?

3684
03:08:38,360 --> 03:08:42,640
Speaker 2: What does that mean? He has to be being racist here?

3685
03:08:42,840 --> 03:08:43,000
Speaker 4: Oh?

3686
03:08:43,080 --> 03:08:47,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. And I don't know how which race going?

3687
03:08:47,240 --> 03:08:49,120
Speaker 3: Like were they hacidic Jews?

3688
03:08:49,360 --> 03:08:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? What does this mean? What does bushy mean? I

3689
03:08:51,920 --> 03:08:54,920
Speaker 2: don't know what. It could be Italians. It would be

3690
03:08:54,959 --> 03:08:57,720
Speaker 2: funny if, like the real story is that that the

3691
03:08:58,280 --> 03:09:01,240
Speaker 2: Jeb and George Bush who were at this point like

3692
03:09:01,280 --> 03:09:03,560
Speaker 2: it was it was all of the Bush brothers, like, yeah,

3693
03:09:03,600 --> 03:09:07,600
Speaker 2: trying to mug children. Yeah, you know Bushy like the

3694
03:09:08,000 --> 03:09:11,000
Speaker 2: former head of the CIA. Yeah, I think he was current,

3695
03:09:11,000 --> 03:09:12,640
Speaker 2: probably would have been a current when this was. I

3696
03:09:12,640 --> 03:09:16,280
Speaker 2: guess it's like the late seventies. Yeah, so obviously that's

3697
03:09:16,280 --> 03:09:20,720
Speaker 2: probably a lie, but it's very Again, Harlan Carter is

3698
03:09:21,000 --> 03:09:22,960
Speaker 2: he is the kind of guy who is not just

3699
03:09:23,040 --> 03:09:27,920
Speaker 2: like I think, UH, children should be able to engage

3700
03:09:27,959 --> 03:09:30,200
Speaker 2: in shooting sports. But like I think children should be

3701
03:09:30,280 --> 03:09:36,560
Speaker 2: routinely carrying handguns on their person. Yeah, because why guys, Yeah, exactly,

3702
03:09:36,600 --> 03:09:38,600
Speaker 2: that is out of its damn mind.

3703
03:09:39,120 --> 03:09:43,879
Speaker 3: Just just oh, man, a bushy man could strike at

3704
03:09:43,920 --> 03:09:44,560
Speaker 3: any point.

3705
03:09:44,640 --> 03:09:46,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, you never know when a bushy dude's gonna come in.

3706
03:09:46,920 --> 03:09:49,600
Speaker 2: You gotta be you have to always have a derringer

3707
03:09:49,640 --> 03:09:52,480
Speaker 2: in your five year old's pocket. It's the seventies.

3708
03:09:52,600 --> 03:09:55,080
Speaker 3: Maybe he's talking about like a tom like a like

3709
03:09:55,120 --> 03:09:57,680
Speaker 3: a lot of chest hair type. Yeah, you know, like

3710
03:09:58,120 --> 03:09:59,800
Speaker 3: he disco ste shows up.

3711
03:10:00,080 --> 03:10:02,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, a bunch of disco guys come out and start

3712
03:10:02,280 --> 03:10:08,240
Speaker 2: threatening children. So anyway, back to the point. Under Harlan

3713
03:10:08,280 --> 03:10:11,240
Speaker 2: and his successors, the NRA acted repeatedly to defend the

3714
03:10:11,320 --> 03:10:15,440
Speaker 2: rights of gun manufacturers to build dangerously shoddy firearms like

3715
03:10:15,760 --> 03:10:18,520
Speaker 2: this we talk a lot about, rightly, so the things

3716
03:10:18,520 --> 03:10:21,800
Speaker 2: they do, like legislatively to defend the gun industry, But

3717
03:10:21,920 --> 03:10:24,560
Speaker 2: this is often left out because one of the things

3718
03:10:24,600 --> 03:10:26,360
Speaker 2: is its primary victim is gun owners.

3719
03:10:26,440 --> 03:10:26,640
Speaker 3: Right.

3720
03:10:27,600 --> 03:10:29,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote here from a write up in Bloomberg.

3721
03:10:30,320 --> 03:10:33,680
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy two, Congress created the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

3722
03:10:33,840 --> 03:10:36,560
Speaker 2: Four years earlier, Lyndon B. Johnson had signed the Omnibus

3723
03:10:36,640 --> 03:10:39,800
Speaker 2: Crime Control in Safe Streets Act, which regulated several aspects

3724
03:10:39,840 --> 03:10:42,440
Speaker 2: of firearm sales, and advocates of gun control hoped to

3725
03:10:42,440 --> 03:10:46,920
Speaker 2: give this agency oversight of defective weapons. Representative John Dingle,

3726
03:10:47,920 --> 03:10:50,360
Speaker 2: sorry a Democrat from Michigan and a hunter with an

3727
03:10:50,360 --> 03:10:53,480
Speaker 2: A plus rating from the ascendant NRA, blocked them. In

3728
03:10:53,560 --> 03:10:55,800
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five. He did it again when a colleague

3729
03:10:55,840 --> 03:10:57,960
Speaker 2: introduced a bill making a second run at giving the

3730
03:10:57,959 --> 03:11:01,840
Speaker 2: CPSC firearms authority. We put in there an express prohibition

3731
03:11:01,879 --> 03:11:04,600
Speaker 2: against them getting their nose into the business of regulating

3732
03:11:04,640 --> 03:11:07,480
Speaker 2: firearms and ammunition, Dnkle said in debate in Congress. That

3733
03:11:07,560 --> 03:11:09,640
Speaker 2: second bill was crushed three hundred and thirty nine to

3734
03:11:09,680 --> 03:11:12,360
Speaker 2: eighty and the issue has never been seriously considered again.

3735
03:11:13,440 --> 03:11:17,520
Speaker 2: And it's one of those like this is again perfectly

3736
03:11:17,840 --> 03:11:22,560
Speaker 2: even if you're like a gun fundamentalist, you should want

3737
03:11:22,600 --> 03:11:26,760
Speaker 2: there to be oversight of guns that don't work or explode,

3738
03:11:26,800 --> 03:11:29,879
Speaker 2: and like ammunition that doesn't work, like right right. That

3739
03:11:29,959 --> 03:11:33,040
Speaker 2: seems to make that shouldn't be a political issue.

3740
03:11:32,640 --> 03:11:36,720
Speaker 3: It's they'd be into that, yeah, And the only explanation

3741
03:11:36,879 --> 03:11:40,680
Speaker 3: for you not being into it is like, oh good,

3742
03:11:41,440 --> 03:11:45,360
Speaker 3: they can't get the good guns. I mean, like, like

3743
03:11:45,480 --> 03:11:50,320
Speaker 3: poor poor people, black people getting the defective guns seems

3744
03:11:50,320 --> 03:11:51,680
Speaker 3: to be the only excuse here.

3745
03:11:51,800 --> 03:11:54,360
Speaker 2: I mean, well, I mean their specific excuse is that

3746
03:11:54,480 --> 03:11:57,959
Speaker 2: like this will this will enable potentially the government to

3747
03:11:58,320 --> 03:12:01,039
Speaker 2: regulate what kind of ammo's illegal and ban types of

3748
03:12:01,120 --> 03:12:04,800
Speaker 2: like whatever, right, which they do anyway, like that shit

3749
03:12:04,840 --> 03:12:08,039
Speaker 2: happens like whatever, it's dumb. It's dumb that this happens

3750
03:12:08,040 --> 03:12:11,640
Speaker 2: this way. M it is worth noting that, Yeah, it's

3751
03:12:11,720 --> 03:12:13,640
Speaker 2: like a blue dog Democrat who is the one who

3752
03:12:13,720 --> 03:12:17,520
Speaker 2: like blocks this shit. So the end result is that

3753
03:12:17,560 --> 03:12:21,320
Speaker 2: when gun manufacturers produce firearms that, for example, fire for

3754
03:12:21,400 --> 03:12:24,320
Speaker 2: no reason and kill their owners, it is impossible for

3755
03:12:24,360 --> 03:12:27,120
Speaker 2: the government to order them to recall those weapons. Not

3756
03:12:27,280 --> 03:12:31,840
Speaker 2: even the BATFE, which supposedly regulates firearms, can force a

3757
03:12:31,920 --> 03:12:34,760
Speaker 2: gun maker to take broken guns off the market. And

3758
03:12:34,800 --> 03:12:38,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote again from that Bloomberg article, and

3759
03:12:38,360 --> 03:12:41,640
Speaker 2: this is actually how the article opens. Thomas bud Brown

3760
03:12:41,720 --> 03:12:43,640
Speaker 2: makes his way out the back door and stops a

3761
03:12:43,680 --> 03:12:46,240
Speaker 2: few steps to the right, raising a trembling arm pointing

3762
03:12:46,280 --> 03:12:48,840
Speaker 2: at something. It's where he found his boys slumped against

3763
03:12:48,879 --> 03:12:50,640
Speaker 2: the cold back wall of the house around seven to

3764
03:12:50,720 --> 03:12:53,600
Speaker 2: fifteen am on the last day of twenty sixteen. Bleeding

3765
03:12:53,640 --> 03:12:56,160
Speaker 2: Out Brown is telling the story now about how he

3766
03:12:56,200 --> 03:12:57,879
Speaker 2: was sitting in his chair in the living room when

3767
03:12:57,879 --> 03:13:00,080
Speaker 2: he heard the shot. His son, Jared twenty eight it

3768
03:13:00,120 --> 03:13:02,640
Speaker 2: had just picked up Bud's Taurus PT one forty five

3769
03:13:02,680 --> 03:13:05,400
Speaker 2: millennium pro pistol and headed out to do some shooting

3770
03:13:05,440 --> 03:13:07,800
Speaker 2: near their house in Griffin, Georgia with his best friend

3771
03:13:07,840 --> 03:13:10,800
Speaker 2: Tyler Haney. Bud figure Jared had fired at something for

3772
03:13:10,840 --> 03:13:12,920
Speaker 2: the fun of it, like he did sometimes. I was

3773
03:13:12,959 --> 03:13:14,560
Speaker 2: thinking I'd better go out there and tell him to

3774
03:13:14,600 --> 03:13:17,160
Speaker 2: be careful or something, Bud fifty four says, his voice

3775
03:13:17,160 --> 03:13:19,720
Speaker 2: trailing off. But what he'd heard was the pistol going

3776
03:13:19,760 --> 03:13:22,560
Speaker 2: off without anyone pulling the trigger, sending a forty five

3777
03:13:22,600 --> 03:13:26,720
Speaker 2: caliber slug through Jared's femoral artery. Oh shit, my leg,

3778
03:13:26,879 --> 03:13:29,600
Speaker 2: my leg, Jared yelled loud enough for his father to hear.

3779
03:13:29,959 --> 03:13:32,320
Speaker 2: Haney twenty six rushed to the house in a panic,

3780
03:13:32,520 --> 03:13:35,120
Speaker 2: pleading for help. When Bud got out there, the pistol

3781
03:13:35,160 --> 03:13:39,440
Speaker 2: was still in its holster, tucked into Jared's waistband. So

3782
03:13:41,040 --> 03:13:44,400
Speaker 2: any Bud, so he can't do nothing, absolutely nothing. Bud

3783
03:13:44,440 --> 03:13:46,400
Speaker 2: is one of We have no idea how many Americans

3784
03:13:46,440 --> 03:13:49,959
Speaker 2: died due to defective Turis guns. The company did eventually

3785
03:13:50,040 --> 03:13:52,720
Speaker 2: issue a recall on something like a million weapons that

3786
03:13:52,760 --> 03:13:55,800
Speaker 2: were potentially defective, but they didn't have to run ads

3787
03:13:55,840 --> 03:13:58,440
Speaker 2: anywhere to inform people of the recall. They were not

3788
03:13:58,480 --> 03:14:00,560
Speaker 2: required to reach out to their customers, to reach out

3789
03:14:00,560 --> 03:14:02,760
Speaker 2: to gun stores, to take any action at all to

3790
03:14:02,840 --> 03:14:05,480
Speaker 2: warn people that they'd sold guns that could fire for

3791
03:14:05,640 --> 03:14:09,200
Speaker 2: no reason. An unknown number of those weapons are still

3792
03:14:09,240 --> 03:14:14,560
Speaker 2: in people's gun saves, closets and holsters today. That's fucking crazy.

3793
03:14:14,920 --> 03:14:17,960
Speaker 3: Just like I don't even know that justificate it's just

3794
03:14:18,280 --> 03:14:19,720
Speaker 3: guns don't kill people.

3795
03:14:20,000 --> 03:14:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this face kills people. The the NRA they are,

3796
03:14:24,360 --> 03:14:29,200
Speaker 2: there's this like social like uh culture war component of

3797
03:14:29,240 --> 03:14:32,320
Speaker 2: how they do what they're doing. But they fundamentally represent

3798
03:14:32,360 --> 03:14:34,959
Speaker 2: the gun industry in any industry that can stop there

3799
03:14:35,000 --> 03:14:36,880
Speaker 2: from being a way to sue them if their products

3800
03:14:36,879 --> 03:14:39,840
Speaker 2: don't work. Course will do it if they can, you know.

3801
03:14:40,280 --> 03:14:44,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just it's just it's yeah, it's so insane

3802
03:14:45,080 --> 03:14:47,080
Speaker 3: to get to a point where it's so clearly a

3803
03:14:47,200 --> 03:14:51,560
Speaker 3: manufacturing lobby mixed in with a culture war issue that

3804
03:14:51,720 --> 03:14:54,800
Speaker 3: just creates death everywhere.

3805
03:14:55,440 --> 03:14:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's and it's I mean again for among other things,

3806
03:14:58,640 --> 03:15:04,560
Speaker 2: don't buy tortoise guns for a practical purpose. But in

3807
03:15:04,600 --> 03:15:07,800
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties, more than forty US cities filed lawsuits

3808
03:15:07,800 --> 03:15:11,160
Speaker 2: against gun manufacturers, spurred on by a surge and violent crime.

3809
03:15:11,640 --> 03:15:15,640
Speaker 2: This was the super Predator era. Now, I can't speak

3810
03:15:15,680 --> 03:15:17,680
Speaker 2: as to the legal merits of the individual cases of

3811
03:15:17,680 --> 03:15:21,040
Speaker 2: these cities against these gun manufacturers, but the response the

3812
03:15:21,160 --> 03:15:24,560
Speaker 2: NRA shows was interesting. They used their lobbying arm to

3813
03:15:24,920 --> 03:15:27,680
Speaker 2: launch a campaign that got Senator Larry Craig of Idaho

3814
03:15:27,720 --> 03:15:30,760
Speaker 2: and Representative Cliff Stearns of Florida to propose a piece

3815
03:15:30,800 --> 03:15:34,280
Speaker 2: of legislation that would end all pending litigation against gun

3816
03:15:34,320 --> 03:15:38,360
Speaker 2: companies and prevent any future litigation. It took a while

3817
03:15:38,440 --> 03:15:41,680
Speaker 2: to actually get the law, which is the PLCIA, written,

3818
03:15:42,280 --> 03:15:44,720
Speaker 2: and by the time it was introduced, George W. Bush

3819
03:15:44,800 --> 03:15:47,400
Speaker 2: was on his second term. In October two thousand and five,

3820
03:15:47,480 --> 03:15:50,800
Speaker 2: he signed the PLCAA and a law which blocked lawsuits

3821
03:15:50,800 --> 03:15:55,039
Speaker 2: from seeking damages on gun industry companies for unlawful use

3822
03:15:55,040 --> 03:15:57,879
Speaker 2: of a firearm right. So if the company could be

3823
03:15:57,920 --> 03:16:00,920
Speaker 2: sued for like breaking the law in some way, but

3824
03:16:01,000 --> 03:16:04,840
Speaker 2: they cannot be sued for what people do with their weapons.

3825
03:16:04,879 --> 03:16:08,320
Speaker 2: And I have some conflicting feelings on some of these lawsuits.

3826
03:16:08,440 --> 03:16:10,119
Speaker 2: But one of the things that people will point out

3827
03:16:10,240 --> 03:16:13,320
Speaker 2: is that the advertising of a lot of these companies

3828
03:16:14,600 --> 03:16:18,320
Speaker 2: like leads to the like and this is a big thing,

3829
03:16:18,360 --> 03:16:20,480
Speaker 2: like the Sandy Hook lawsuit, right, One of the big issues.

3830
03:16:20,760 --> 03:16:23,480
Speaker 2: One of the big like points that used to justify

3831
03:16:23,600 --> 03:16:26,560
Speaker 2: like the suing against the Bushmaster who made the gun

3832
03:16:26,560 --> 03:16:29,520
Speaker 2: that was used in Sandy Hook, was this ad campaign

3833
03:16:29,600 --> 03:16:34,000
Speaker 2: they'd just done where it was like, consider your Man

3834
03:16:34,040 --> 03:16:35,920
Speaker 2: card reissued, and they would like send you a man

3835
03:16:35,959 --> 03:16:38,720
Speaker 2: card with an AR fifteen and it's it's again, there's

3836
03:16:38,760 --> 03:16:41,720
Speaker 2: a again. I this is like a complicated thing to

3837
03:16:41,720 --> 03:16:44,080
Speaker 2: get into entirely, but there's a debate to be had.

3838
03:16:44,720 --> 03:16:46,480
Speaker 2: Into my mind, the area in which it's kind of

3839
03:16:46,560 --> 03:16:49,520
Speaker 2: most relevant to have this debate is on to what

3840
03:16:49,600 --> 03:16:53,360
Speaker 2: extent does the way the gun industry tries to sell

3841
03:16:53,400 --> 03:16:58,160
Speaker 2: weapons to people complicit in when those weapons are used

3842
03:16:58,240 --> 03:17:02,000
Speaker 2: for violence. So, for example, when Daniel Defense launches an

3843
03:17:02,000 --> 03:17:04,640
Speaker 2: ad where you have like a Bible verse and a

3844
03:17:04,680 --> 03:17:08,480
Speaker 2: small child holding an air of fifteen. To what extent

3845
03:17:08,600 --> 03:17:11,320
Speaker 2: does that help to lead to what extent does that

3846
03:17:11,360 --> 03:17:14,480
Speaker 2: help make gun culture in the United States more violent? Right?

3847
03:17:14,560 --> 03:17:16,440
Speaker 2: And this is not really what the lawsuits are, Like

3848
03:17:16,480 --> 03:17:19,360
Speaker 2: the Uvaldi families aren't suing Daniel Defense or that they're

3849
03:17:19,360 --> 03:17:21,160
Speaker 2: attempting to right now. This is all happening at the

3850
03:17:21,160 --> 03:17:23,800
Speaker 2: moment on those lines. But to my mind, that's kind

3851
03:17:23,800 --> 03:17:26,560
Speaker 2: of the most That's the thing that like, I think

3852
03:17:26,600 --> 03:17:28,600
Speaker 2: there's a point on sure.

3853
03:17:28,800 --> 03:17:32,320
Speaker 3: I mean it's like, I mean, the way cigarettes were

3854
03:17:32,400 --> 03:17:36,440
Speaker 3: marketed changed, you know, yes, were regulated like crazy and

3855
03:17:37,160 --> 03:17:41,480
Speaker 3: has actually had an effect on the amount of smokers.

3856
03:17:41,720 --> 03:17:45,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so anyway, again I have some complicated thoughts

3857
03:17:45,120 --> 03:17:48,760
Speaker 2: on like suing companies for the unlawful use of their products,

3858
03:17:48,800 --> 03:17:52,640
Speaker 2: but there's like, anyway, the PLCIA kind of ended that

3859
03:17:52,760 --> 03:17:54,520
Speaker 2: for a long time. I think this is starting to

3860
03:17:54,520 --> 03:17:57,720
Speaker 2: be challenged, But for fifteens or seventeen years or whatever,

3861
03:17:58,040 --> 03:18:00,920
Speaker 2: made any kind of like debate meaningless because it was

3862
03:18:01,040 --> 03:18:03,959
Speaker 2: just prohibited. And it was prohibited. Again. This is the

3863
03:18:04,120 --> 03:18:08,160
Speaker 2: NRA spent a lot of money on George W. Bush's campaigns.

3864
03:18:08,280 --> 03:18:12,000
Speaker 3: You know, I am wondering if the like initially the

3865
03:18:13,160 --> 03:18:17,760
Speaker 3: Hatachi Magic wand actually was a back massager. And if

3866
03:18:17,800 --> 03:18:22,360
Speaker 3: you could sue sue a company because it gave your

3867
03:18:22,360 --> 03:18:23,840
Speaker 3: wife an orgasm.

3868
03:18:23,560 --> 03:18:26,320
Speaker 2: Well, like again there, I think people do need to

3869
03:18:26,360 --> 03:18:28,680
Speaker 2: consider when we talk about, like to what extent should

3870
03:18:28,680 --> 03:18:31,400
Speaker 2: a gun manufacturer be liable for something about a mass shooting?

3871
03:18:31,440 --> 03:18:35,000
Speaker 2: There are some unsettling implications to some of that. It's

3872
03:18:35,040 --> 03:18:36,840
Speaker 2: not a super cut, it's not as cut and dry

3873
03:18:36,879 --> 03:18:38,039
Speaker 2: as certain other things are.

3874
03:18:39,080 --> 03:18:41,680
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying it's a slippery slope necessarily, but

3875
03:18:41,800 --> 03:18:46,400
Speaker 3: I am saying that I thought it was a back massager. Yeah,

3876
03:18:46,440 --> 03:18:49,640
Speaker 3: and now it's better at making my wife calm than

3877
03:18:49,680 --> 03:18:50,039
Speaker 3: I am.

3878
03:18:50,400 --> 03:18:51,560
Speaker 2: And that's always has been.

3879
03:18:52,120 --> 03:18:55,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And well, I mean it seems kind of unfair

3880
03:18:55,040 --> 03:18:57,240
Speaker 3: to me to have not known that.

3881
03:18:57,640 --> 03:18:59,920
Speaker 2: What's really I mean, people are bringing up people into

3882
03:19:00,120 --> 03:19:02,160
Speaker 2: or have brought up the fact that, like you're limited

3883
03:19:02,200 --> 03:19:04,760
Speaker 2: to six dildos I think in the state of Texas,

3884
03:19:04,840 --> 03:19:07,320
Speaker 2: is that right? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, there's like literal laws

3885
03:19:07,360 --> 03:19:08,760
Speaker 2: on how many. I mean, I don't think they've ever

3886
03:19:08,800 --> 03:19:12,000
Speaker 2: been in. What has been enforced though, is that like

3887
03:19:12,440 --> 03:19:14,200
Speaker 2: anyone you know who works at a sex shop in

3888
03:19:14,240 --> 03:19:17,280
Speaker 2: Texas it has to be like is like prepared This

3889
03:19:17,360 --> 03:19:19,080
Speaker 2: is a little little bit less the case now. But

3890
03:19:19,240 --> 03:19:21,440
Speaker 2: when I had friends in the early two thousands, like

3891
03:19:21,520 --> 03:19:22,920
Speaker 2: you get training on like what to do if you

3892
03:19:22,959 --> 03:19:25,520
Speaker 2: get raided because you're not allowed to sell sex toys

3893
03:19:26,320 --> 03:19:28,360
Speaker 2: they had. They were always called cake toppers, right, like

3894
03:19:28,400 --> 03:19:30,879
Speaker 2: the dildos and shit were like cake toppers or personal

3895
03:19:30,879 --> 03:19:34,280
Speaker 2: massagers or whatever. Yeah, but you couldn't, like you couldn't say, like,

3896
03:19:34,280 --> 03:19:36,000
Speaker 2: these are for fucking, in the same way that like

3897
03:19:36,240 --> 03:19:38,200
Speaker 2: you could sell a bong, but you had to call

3898
03:19:38,240 --> 03:19:41,200
Speaker 2: it a water pipe for tobacco, like if you use

3899
03:19:41,280 --> 03:19:44,360
Speaker 2: the ball word bong and a Texas. Again, head shops

3900
03:19:44,360 --> 03:19:47,400
Speaker 2: were always kind of inconsistent about how much they were

3901
03:19:47,440 --> 03:19:50,480
Speaker 2: paranoid about this. But like you, you could get asked

3902
03:19:50,560 --> 03:19:52,879
Speaker 2: to leave for calling something a bong in a in

3903
03:19:52,920 --> 03:19:53,680
Speaker 2: a head right.

3904
03:19:53,600 --> 03:19:55,520
Speaker 3: But I mean, what do you what do you call

3905
03:19:55,600 --> 03:19:58,640
Speaker 3: the you know that you know that silicon butt that

3906
03:19:58,680 --> 03:20:01,600
Speaker 3: has both the pussy and the giant. That's a sex ass.

3907
03:20:01,840 --> 03:20:06,320
Speaker 3: That's a sex ass. Yeah, so but you I mean,

3908
03:20:06,360 --> 03:20:08,480
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, how do you market that around?

3909
03:20:08,520 --> 03:20:11,360
Speaker 2: I don't I don't think they really had sex ass,

3910
03:20:11,400 --> 03:20:14,720
Speaker 2: although I know people bought fucking what do you call them?

3911
03:20:14,760 --> 03:20:17,560
Speaker 2: The flesh lights. So there must have been some, like

3912
03:20:17,600 --> 03:20:19,840
Speaker 2: I'm guessing they probably they must have been advertised as

3913
03:20:19,840 --> 03:20:21,640
Speaker 2: like a novelty, right, It's like this is a for

3914
03:20:21,800 --> 03:20:26,440
Speaker 2: joking around at a bachelorette partner you put it. They're like,

3915
03:20:26,520 --> 03:20:29,440
Speaker 2: it's dumb. All Texas's whole legal system is stupid.

3916
03:20:29,480 --> 03:20:32,200
Speaker 3: Sh that's insane. That's a lot of fun though. I mean,

3917
03:20:32,360 --> 03:20:34,400
Speaker 3: you know, but people get around it like I didn't

3918
03:20:34,440 --> 03:20:38,960
Speaker 3: have access to a big silicon, you know, uh but

3919
03:20:39,280 --> 03:20:43,000
Speaker 3: vagina and so I fucked a big mouth billy bass.

3920
03:20:43,440 --> 03:20:46,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, who didn't fuck a big mouth billy bass? Yeah,

3921
03:20:46,879 --> 03:20:50,200
Speaker 2: I'm universal experience of people in the early two thousands.

3922
03:20:50,680 --> 03:20:53,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sorry. I just like eventually I just was like,

3923
03:20:54,080 --> 03:20:56,920
Speaker 3: we're going to start talking about com We're gonna start.

3924
03:20:56,720 --> 03:21:00,480
Speaker 2: Talking about Look, you know, the same year that George W.

3925
03:21:00,680 --> 03:21:03,280
Speaker 2: Bush signs the PLCAA and the law, that's the year

3926
03:21:03,320 --> 03:21:06,119
Speaker 2: that many millions of young American boys encountered a billy

3927
03:21:06,480 --> 03:21:09,920
Speaker 2: Largemouth bass. For the fact's right. Yeah, and thanks to

3928
03:21:10,000 --> 03:21:13,440
Speaker 2: the NRA's lobbying, the Billy Bass Company couldn't be suited

3929
03:21:13,520 --> 03:21:15,840
Speaker 2: for taking the rigidity of all those boys.

3930
03:21:18,600 --> 03:21:22,080
Speaker 3: Take me to your virginity. All right, I'm done.

3931
03:21:22,080 --> 03:21:24,120
Speaker 2: All right. The last thing I want to talk about here,

3932
03:21:24,320 --> 03:21:27,960
Speaker 2: and this is maybe the most unsettling thing the NRA

3933
03:21:28,160 --> 03:21:32,920
Speaker 2: has done, is that they have made it impossible not

3934
03:21:33,200 --> 03:21:35,600
Speaker 2: just to like, not only do they fight like any

3935
03:21:35,680 --> 03:21:40,440
Speaker 2: regulation that might potentially impact positively America's gun violence problem

3936
03:21:40,520 --> 03:21:43,600
Speaker 2: or America's gun death problem, they've made it impossible to

3937
03:21:43,840 --> 03:21:47,840
Speaker 2: research how gun violence works and like the extent to

3938
03:21:47,879 --> 03:21:51,520
Speaker 2: which different policies affect it. In nineteen ninety three, the

3939
03:21:51,600 --> 03:21:54,120
Speaker 2: New England Journal of Medicine published an article that show

3940
03:21:54,280 --> 03:21:56,920
Speaker 2: showing that gun ownership was a risk factor for homicide

3941
03:21:56,959 --> 03:21:58,879
Speaker 2: in the home. Now, this is a study you'll see

3942
03:21:58,879 --> 03:22:00,840
Speaker 2: cited a great deal, and it's often used to argue

3943
03:22:00,879 --> 03:22:04,080
Speaker 2: that firearms in the home make people less safe. This

3944
03:22:04,160 --> 03:22:06,080
Speaker 2: study was widely reported on it at the time, and

3945
03:22:06,160 --> 03:22:08,600
Speaker 2: it scared the shit out of the NRA. So the

3946
03:22:08,720 --> 03:22:12,360
Speaker 2: NRA campaigned to eliminate the organization that had funded the study,

3947
03:22:12,760 --> 03:22:17,760
Speaker 2: the CDC's National Center for Energy Injury Prevention. Congress included

3948
03:22:17,840 --> 03:22:20,520
Speaker 2: language in the nineteen ninety six Omnibus Appropriations Bill to

3949
03:22:20,560 --> 03:22:23,160
Speaker 2: insist that quote none of the funds made available for

3950
03:22:23,240 --> 03:22:25,720
Speaker 2: injury prevention and control with the Centers for Disease Control

3951
03:22:25,760 --> 03:22:28,680
Speaker 2: and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.

3952
03:22:29,000 --> 03:22:31,720
Speaker 2: Now you may note they weren't doing that with that study.

3953
03:22:31,800 --> 03:22:33,840
Speaker 2: It was a study that you could use to argue

3954
03:22:33,920 --> 03:22:36,720
Speaker 2: gun control, supported gun control, but it was just a

3955
03:22:36,840 --> 03:22:39,800
Speaker 2: study on like the homicide risk and how that changes

3956
03:22:39,800 --> 03:22:41,360
Speaker 2: when you have a gun in the home, right, right, Like,

3957
03:22:41,959 --> 03:22:45,360
Speaker 2: the CDC was not like lobbying specifically, they were carrying

3958
03:22:45,440 --> 03:22:49,040
Speaker 2: out a study. But the NRAMA studied, yeah, how people

3959
03:22:49,160 --> 03:22:52,200
Speaker 2: get hurt in the home, And the NRA argued that

3960
03:22:52,360 --> 03:22:55,320
Speaker 2: was inherently like that's political and should be illegal. Yeah,

3961
03:22:55,600 --> 03:22:58,000
Speaker 2: and then they make that happen, right Yeah, Like, Congress

3962
03:22:58,200 --> 03:23:01,000
Speaker 2: goes through with this shit. This is later referred to

3963
03:23:01,080 --> 03:23:03,920
Speaker 2: as the Dickie Amendment because of some dude named Dickie.

3964
03:23:04,640 --> 03:23:08,080
Speaker 2: Now under extensive lobbying pressure, Congress also removed two point

3965
03:23:08,120 --> 03:23:10,880
Speaker 2: six million dollars from the CDC's budget, as that was

3966
03:23:10,920 --> 03:23:13,720
Speaker 2: the amount they had invested in firearm injury research the

3967
03:23:13,840 --> 03:23:15,800
Speaker 2: year before. So they cut all of the money out

3968
03:23:15,800 --> 03:23:17,960
Speaker 2: of the CDC's budget that had been used to research

3969
03:23:18,040 --> 03:23:20,640
Speaker 2: firearm industry. And again, whatever you think about gun control,

3970
03:23:20,720 --> 03:23:22,400
Speaker 2: there are four hundred million of these things in the

3971
03:23:22,440 --> 03:23:25,240
Speaker 2: fucking country. There should be research into how they affect people. Right,

3972
03:23:25,280 --> 03:23:30,280
Speaker 2: It just seems prudent. It seems prudent, Just seems prudent. Yeah,

3973
03:23:30,320 --> 03:23:34,160
Speaker 2: if fucking if auto companies were blocking research into how

3974
03:23:34,320 --> 03:23:37,880
Speaker 2: car accidents work, right, like, you would say that's nuts,

3975
03:23:38,040 --> 03:23:41,280
Speaker 2: you know, because it would be And it's not even

3976
03:23:41,440 --> 03:23:45,320
Speaker 2: It's like, it's not even our companies tried to do that. Yeah, right,

3977
03:23:45,400 --> 03:23:47,640
Speaker 2: it's I don't fault them for trying. It's the same

3978
03:23:47,680 --> 03:23:49,520
Speaker 2: way with their you know, that's what they're going to do.

3979
03:23:49,720 --> 03:23:50,480
Speaker 2: That's what they're going to do.

3980
03:23:50,560 --> 03:23:52,600
Speaker 3: They're going to try to do that, and you know,

3981
03:23:52,879 --> 03:23:55,840
Speaker 3: it's a fucked up capitalist system we're in.

3982
03:23:56,000 --> 03:23:57,520
Speaker 2: If you have the money, you can try.

3983
03:23:57,920 --> 03:24:02,480
Speaker 3: The crazy thing is a success rate of the NRA

3984
03:24:03,000 --> 03:24:08,000
Speaker 3: in these in these things that are completely like common

3985
03:24:08,080 --> 03:24:09,199
Speaker 3: sense ideas.

3986
03:24:09,640 --> 03:24:12,039
Speaker 2: There's there's a wide variety of arguments about how should

3987
03:24:12,040 --> 03:24:14,760
Speaker 2: you interpret this, this the you know, the findings to

3988
03:24:14,840 --> 03:24:17,200
Speaker 2: studies like this, to what extent should they inform policy?

3989
03:24:18,120 --> 03:24:20,080
Speaker 2: All that kind of stuff. But at the end of

3990
03:24:20,120 --> 03:24:22,360
Speaker 2: the day, I think if you're saying you shouldn't be

3991
03:24:22,520 --> 03:24:24,920
Speaker 2: studying this kind of stuff at all, you were the

3992
03:24:25,000 --> 03:24:28,040
Speaker 2: bad guy here. You're definitely bad, but defin you're a

3993
03:24:28,080 --> 03:24:28,640
Speaker 2: bad guy.

3994
03:24:28,600 --> 03:24:31,680
Speaker 3: The very least coming in bad faith. But yeah, you

3995
03:24:31,840 --> 03:24:34,960
Speaker 3: are one doing bad guys stuff.

3996
03:24:35,400 --> 03:24:39,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, and should be stopped. And federal funding for research

3997
03:24:39,080 --> 03:24:42,200
Speaker 2: into gun violence and gun related injuries dried up after that.

3998
03:24:42,920 --> 03:24:45,880
Speaker 2: Since nineteen ninety six, the CDC's funding for firearm injury

3999
03:24:45,920 --> 03:24:48,800
Speaker 2: prevention has fallen ninety six percent, and similar attempts to

4000
03:24:48,800 --> 03:24:51,000
Speaker 2: fund research have met with further attacks and the ability

4001
03:24:51,040 --> 03:24:54,279
Speaker 2: to study any of these stuff, most recently in twenty twelve.

4002
03:24:55,600 --> 03:25:00,320
Speaker 2: And yeah, so anyway, that's broadly speaking the story our

4003
03:25:00,360 --> 03:25:02,040
Speaker 2: buddy Neil Knox. I should give you a little bit

4004
03:25:02,040 --> 03:25:05,080
Speaker 2: of context on how our heroes turned out. Yeah, they doing.

4005
03:25:05,400 --> 03:25:08,040
Speaker 2: Neil Knox wound up being way too radical for even

4006
03:25:08,160 --> 03:25:10,640
Speaker 2: Harlan Carter's NRA. He was forced out of the organization

4007
03:25:10,720 --> 03:25:13,400
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two after being overshadowed by the rise

4008
03:25:13,440 --> 03:25:15,840
Speaker 2: of Wayne Lapierre. I think LaPier kind of helps maneuver

4009
03:25:15,959 --> 03:25:19,000
Speaker 2: him out. He dies of colon cancer in two thousand

4010
03:25:19,040 --> 03:25:22,080
Speaker 2: and five. He outlived Carter by a fair amount. Harlan

4011
03:25:22,200 --> 03:25:25,520
Speaker 2: died not surprisingly of lung cancer in nineteen ninety one,

4012
03:25:25,680 --> 03:25:27,920
Speaker 2: so the tobacco industry did us all a solid on

4013
03:25:28,000 --> 03:25:28,640
Speaker 2: this one. Yay.

4014
03:25:28,840 --> 03:25:30,040
Speaker 3: Occasionally it works out.

4015
03:25:30,480 --> 03:25:32,440
Speaker 2: One of his final acts in this world was to

4016
03:25:32,520 --> 03:25:37,960
Speaker 2: hand over control of the NRA to Wayne LaPier. Oh shit,

4017
03:25:38,400 --> 03:25:41,800
Speaker 2: that's the that's the Harlan Carter in the NRA. Everybody,

4018
03:25:42,120 --> 03:25:45,080
Speaker 2: God damn. There's a pretty good song about him called

4019
03:25:45,120 --> 03:25:50,039
Speaker 2: Raymond Cassiano by the Drive By Truckers, which is good. Well,

4020
03:25:50,240 --> 03:25:53,480
Speaker 2: that guy fucking he sucks. It sucks that he he

4021
03:25:53,600 --> 03:25:55,320
Speaker 2: sucks that he's dead too.

4022
03:25:55,680 --> 03:25:57,760
Speaker 3: I feel like one of the big reasons why I'm

4023
03:25:57,840 --> 03:25:59,680
Speaker 3: just like, I don't, you know, I'm not for like, hey,

4024
03:25:59,760 --> 03:26:02,400
Speaker 3: look to make guns illegal or whatnot, is because I

4025
03:26:02,440 --> 03:26:06,160
Speaker 3: feel like guns might end up being very useful in

4026
03:26:07,800 --> 03:26:12,360
Speaker 3: stopping all these ridiculous, you know, fucking NRA lobbies.

4027
03:26:12,400 --> 03:26:17,080
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, And this is I have tried. I

4028
03:26:17,120 --> 03:26:19,160
Speaker 2: think I've done a very good job of like not

4029
03:26:19,640 --> 03:26:22,600
Speaker 2: inserting a bunch of my own specific opinions on gun control,

4030
03:26:22,640 --> 03:26:24,640
Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, there is a

4031
03:26:24,800 --> 03:26:27,680
Speaker 2: history of here and it deserves to be like talked about, sure,

4032
03:26:28,320 --> 03:26:32,000
Speaker 2: without a tremendous amount of editorializing. But yeah, I feel

4033
03:26:32,040 --> 03:26:35,200
Speaker 2: similarly like my attitudes on what gun control should be

4034
03:26:36,720 --> 03:26:39,560
Speaker 2: around are impacted by like Number one, I don't think

4035
03:26:39,560 --> 03:26:42,440
Speaker 2: only rich people should have guns. I don't like the

4036
03:26:42,520 --> 03:26:45,440
Speaker 2: idea of a thousand percent XIZ tax on AR fifteen

4037
03:26:45,560 --> 03:26:47,520
Speaker 2: so that only wealthy people can afford them.

4038
03:26:47,560 --> 03:26:50,280
Speaker 3: Right, And I don't like the idea that like, at

4039
03:26:50,360 --> 03:26:53,200
Speaker 3: this point, at least culturally, the only people who are

4040
03:26:53,280 --> 03:26:56,880
Speaker 3: interested in having guns are people who are interested in

4041
03:26:57,000 --> 03:26:58,280
Speaker 3: upholding white supremacy.

4042
03:26:58,360 --> 03:27:01,920
Speaker 2: And that is deliberately designed. And I mean one of

4043
03:27:01,959 --> 03:27:04,040
Speaker 2: the things that has happened in the last couple of years,

4044
03:27:04,080 --> 03:27:07,160
Speaker 2: this is really accelerated since twenty twenty is the demographics

4045
03:27:07,200 --> 03:27:10,360
Speaker 2: of people buying firearms have changed wildly, particularly first time

4046
03:27:10,400 --> 03:27:12,520
Speaker 2: gun buyers, and it's gotten a lot more left laning

4047
03:27:12,680 --> 03:27:16,440
Speaker 2: and a lot less white. And you know, there's a

4048
03:27:16,680 --> 03:27:19,720
Speaker 2: variety of personally, okay, because people do ask about this

4049
03:27:19,840 --> 03:27:21,720
Speaker 2: because I talk about guns sometimes in terms of what

4050
03:27:21,840 --> 03:27:24,160
Speaker 2: I think are the number one the laws that you

4051
03:27:24,240 --> 03:27:29,080
Speaker 2: could most easily pass without the Supreme Court guaranteed shutting

4052
03:27:29,120 --> 03:27:30,960
Speaker 2: them down. And I think a federal assault weapons ban

4053
03:27:31,040 --> 03:27:33,920
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court will rule against, right like, it will

4054
03:27:33,959 --> 03:27:35,760
Speaker 2: go to the Supreme Court and they will rule against it.

4055
03:27:35,840 --> 03:27:39,120
Speaker 2: In their current construction outside of like talking about should

4056
03:27:39,160 --> 03:27:40,960
Speaker 2: we stack the Supreme Court whatever, like, by it's not

4057
03:27:41,160 --> 03:27:46,039
Speaker 2: doing that. So stuff that I think would not number

4058
03:27:46,080 --> 03:27:49,400
Speaker 2: one would not necessary. Like obviously anything as a crapshoot

4059
03:27:49,440 --> 03:27:51,800
Speaker 2: with the Supreme Court, So literally anything could get turned

4060
03:27:51,840 --> 03:27:53,440
Speaker 2: down by the Yeah, because they're about to rule on

4061
03:27:53,800 --> 03:27:58,480
Speaker 2: a concealed handgun carry bill anyway. But the I think,

4062
03:27:59,160 --> 03:28:02,320
Speaker 2: I think it's perfectly reasonable and is also there is

4063
03:28:02,560 --> 03:28:05,360
Speaker 2: legal precedent for raising the age at which someone has

4064
03:28:05,400 --> 03:28:09,160
Speaker 2: to be in order to buy a semi automatic firearm. Certainly,

4065
03:28:09,520 --> 03:28:12,800
Speaker 2: eighteen year olds are not full adults, and our current

4066
03:28:12,879 --> 03:28:16,720
Speaker 2: gun legislation recognizes that by banning them from buying handguns.

4067
03:28:16,760 --> 03:28:19,400
Speaker 2: Although that's also not entirely accurate because you can still

4068
03:28:19,400 --> 03:28:21,160
Speaker 2: buy handguns through like face to face sales or have

4069
03:28:21,200 --> 03:28:22,760
Speaker 2: them given to you by a parent or whatever. There's

4070
03:28:22,760 --> 03:28:25,800
Speaker 2: always every there's always like ways around this kind of stuff,

4071
03:28:27,240 --> 03:28:29,959
Speaker 2: but it is it's been established since I think nineteen

4072
03:28:29,959 --> 03:28:33,400
Speaker 2: eighty six that the federal government regulates STOP does not

4073
03:28:33,480 --> 03:28:36,360
Speaker 2: want people under twenty one buying handguns. So it's the

4074
03:28:36,440 --> 03:28:38,640
Speaker 2: kind of thing where if you were to pass a

4075
03:28:38,720 --> 03:28:43,000
Speaker 2: law extending that to semi automatic rifles. You'd have a

4076
03:28:43,120 --> 03:28:45,320
Speaker 2: stronger argument in front of the Supreme Court if it

4077
03:28:45,360 --> 03:28:47,360
Speaker 2: came to the Supreme Court in order to defend that

4078
03:28:47,400 --> 03:28:49,800
Speaker 2: cut piece of gun control legislation. And both of our

4079
03:28:49,840 --> 03:28:52,080
Speaker 2: most recent mass shootings as of this recording, there may

4080
03:28:52,120 --> 03:28:55,480
Speaker 2: have been another one drive there. We're eighteen year olds

4081
03:28:55,520 --> 03:28:57,280
Speaker 2: who bought a gun and immediately carried. So I do

4082
03:28:57,400 --> 03:28:58,960
Speaker 2: think just on a moral level, there's a case to

4083
03:28:58,959 --> 03:29:00,720
Speaker 2: be made that, yeah, this might fuck save some lives,

4084
03:29:01,040 --> 03:29:02,840
Speaker 2: and I think the best thing you could do you

4085
03:29:02,840 --> 03:29:05,120
Speaker 2: would probably not have to call it a red flag

4086
03:29:05,200 --> 03:29:08,200
Speaker 2: law because that term has been politicized, but a law

4087
03:29:08,280 --> 03:29:10,720
Speaker 2: that would allow you to take guns and stop people

4088
03:29:10,720 --> 03:29:12,480
Speaker 2: from buying guns if they have a history of domestic

4089
03:29:12,560 --> 03:29:14,800
Speaker 2: violence and violence towards women and making violent threats of

4090
03:29:14,840 --> 03:29:17,800
Speaker 2: mass shootings, which seems like a no brainer. Yeah, again,

4091
03:29:18,120 --> 03:29:20,600
Speaker 2: like everything's been politicized to a stupid degree. But the

4092
03:29:20,879 --> 03:29:25,040
Speaker 2: Buffalo shooter was had been doing like threatening shootings and

4093
03:29:25,640 --> 03:29:28,440
Speaker 2: threatening women, and like had was on law enforcements, radar

4094
03:29:28,600 --> 03:29:30,959
Speaker 2: should have been it should be possible to do something there, right.

4095
03:29:31,240 --> 03:29:34,960
Speaker 3: You'd figure and yeah, I feel like that there's so

4096
03:29:35,160 --> 03:29:38,800
Speaker 3: many like common sense, like law is that you're yeah,

4097
03:29:39,160 --> 03:29:42,720
Speaker 3: that don't exist, that you're surprised every time you find

4098
03:29:42,760 --> 03:29:43,640
Speaker 3: out they don't exist.

4099
03:29:44,480 --> 03:29:47,199
Speaker 2: I do think. I think one of the things where

4100
03:29:47,840 --> 03:29:52,040
Speaker 2: gun control advocates make a mistake is focusing on universal

4101
03:29:52,080 --> 03:29:54,720
Speaker 2: background checks. Not because I don't think it's a good

4102
03:29:54,720 --> 03:29:57,120
Speaker 2: idea to have background checks for buying a gun, but

4103
03:29:57,280 --> 03:29:59,440
Speaker 2: because nearly all of the guns bought and even used

4104
03:29:59,480 --> 03:30:01,959
Speaker 2: in massacres were by people who passed a background check,

4105
03:30:02,000 --> 03:30:04,120
Speaker 2: including the buffalo of all theyse shooters. They both like

4106
03:30:04,840 --> 03:30:08,360
Speaker 2: universal background checks, they passed those, So like that that's

4107
03:30:08,440 --> 03:30:11,400
Speaker 2: not as much of the solution as I think something

4108
03:30:11,520 --> 03:30:13,840
Speaker 2: like an effective kind of Again, I think you would

4109
03:30:13,879 --> 03:30:16,600
Speaker 2: need a better term than red flag law. But also

4110
03:30:16,800 --> 03:30:19,240
Speaker 2: maybe I don't know the right's going to culture or

4111
03:30:19,280 --> 03:30:20,160
Speaker 2: whatever you try to do.

4112
03:30:20,640 --> 03:30:23,400
Speaker 3: Right, but everything's poison pilled no matter what. You can

4113
03:30:23,560 --> 03:30:27,040
Speaker 3: use any fucking euphemistic.

4114
03:30:26,680 --> 03:30:29,920
Speaker 2: Nice If you hit your wife and kids, you shouldn't

4115
03:30:29,920 --> 03:30:31,400
Speaker 2: have a gun bill. But of course one of the

4116
03:30:31,480 --> 03:30:33,160
Speaker 2: issues with that is that you're going to disarm like

4117
03:30:33,240 --> 03:30:34,280
Speaker 2: forty percent of the police.

4118
03:30:34,720 --> 03:30:34,840
Speaker 3: Right.

4119
03:30:37,040 --> 03:30:38,640
Speaker 2: I could talk about like what I think would be

4120
03:30:38,720 --> 03:30:40,520
Speaker 2: a good idea at the end of the day, Like

4121
03:30:40,879 --> 03:30:43,119
Speaker 2: I don't know, like what I what actually is going

4122
03:30:43,200 --> 03:30:45,440
Speaker 2: to pass. That's a totally different fucking conversation.

4123
03:30:45,720 --> 03:30:47,720
Speaker 3: And yeah, no, I don't. I don't know what the

4124
03:30:47,800 --> 03:30:51,400
Speaker 3: answer is. I know that one thing that I don't

4125
03:30:51,440 --> 03:30:55,480
Speaker 3: think the answer is is is this like mutually assured

4126
03:30:55,520 --> 03:30:58,480
Speaker 3: destruction thing where we're all armed at all times and

4127
03:30:58,840 --> 03:31:04,440
Speaker 3: that's the society. I also know the answer isn't every

4128
03:31:05,440 --> 03:31:10,560
Speaker 3: like liberal and leftists being like, oh, well, I'm you know,

4129
03:31:11,120 --> 03:31:14,920
Speaker 3: I'm going to trust that the government and the police

4130
03:31:14,959 --> 03:31:18,040
Speaker 3: will keep me safe from this the bad men, and

4131
03:31:18,200 --> 03:31:20,400
Speaker 3: so I'm like, it's it's hard to know.

4132
03:31:20,560 --> 03:31:22,720
Speaker 2: It's hard to know what to do. I mean, this

4133
03:31:22,879 --> 03:31:25,280
Speaker 2: is a very difficult issue because again people a lot

4134
03:31:25,320 --> 03:31:27,840
Speaker 2: of people say, no, it's simple, just like ban the guns,

4135
03:31:27,920 --> 03:31:30,400
Speaker 2: but it's like, well, how are you going to do that?

4136
03:31:30,800 --> 03:31:33,600
Speaker 2: There is legal precedent, there is a Supreme Court, and

4137
03:31:33,720 --> 03:31:36,440
Speaker 2: also there's a police force that's not going to disarm

4138
03:31:36,560 --> 03:31:38,520
Speaker 2: certain people. Like, this is not as simple as you're

4139
03:31:38,560 --> 03:31:40,280
Speaker 2: making it out to be. Right, you can say it

4140
03:31:40,400 --> 03:31:42,760
Speaker 2: is the guns, and yeah, of course access to guns

4141
03:31:42,879 --> 03:31:44,880
Speaker 2: is like why a lot of this is happening, But

4142
03:31:45,000 --> 03:31:48,360
Speaker 2: also like that doesn't that's not the end of like

4143
03:31:48,760 --> 03:31:51,320
Speaker 2: the complexity of the issue because there are four hundred

4144
03:31:51,320 --> 03:31:53,400
Speaker 2: million of these fucking things in the country right now

4145
03:31:54,280 --> 03:31:57,440
Speaker 2: and a whole culture built up around being ready to

4146
03:31:57,560 --> 03:31:59,960
Speaker 2: immediately use them against right now gay and trans people,

4147
03:32:00,160 --> 03:32:04,480
Speaker 2: particularly in the fucking crosshairs. And again this is like,

4148
03:32:05,520 --> 03:32:08,080
Speaker 2: so I don't know. I think fundamentally, like I I

4149
03:32:08,760 --> 03:32:11,920
Speaker 2: argue a lot about gun control with people. I think

4150
03:32:11,959 --> 03:32:13,400
Speaker 2: the folks who want to see more of it are

4151
03:32:13,440 --> 03:32:16,960
Speaker 2: coming from a fundamentally natural and noble position, which is

4152
03:32:17,000 --> 03:32:19,520
Speaker 2: looking at repeating massacres and going like, we've got to

4153
03:32:19,520 --> 03:32:21,800
Speaker 2: be able to do something about this, Like there's gotta

4154
03:32:21,840 --> 03:32:23,200
Speaker 2: be some way we can do about this shit.

4155
03:32:23,400 --> 03:32:25,440
Speaker 3: No, I completely understand it, I mean, and yeah, and

4156
03:32:25,520 --> 03:32:27,440
Speaker 3: I feel I feel the same way. It's like, there's

4157
03:32:27,560 --> 03:32:30,440
Speaker 3: certainly got to be a fucking solution to this, that is,

4158
03:32:32,240 --> 03:32:34,680
Speaker 3: this is a systemic solution, that this is.

4159
03:32:34,879 --> 03:32:39,160
Speaker 2: Like an an acceptable state of affairs. But like so

4160
03:32:39,280 --> 03:32:42,640
Speaker 2: many of the problems we have, like how to fix it,

4161
03:32:42,879 --> 03:32:46,520
Speaker 2: and like how to fix it without having a shooting

4162
03:32:46,600 --> 03:32:48,920
Speaker 2: war over it, and like who does the fixing? And

4163
03:32:49,080 --> 03:32:52,080
Speaker 2: like I think, like one of the things that is

4164
03:32:52,120 --> 03:32:54,480
Speaker 2: frustrating to me is that like it is it is

4165
03:32:54,760 --> 03:32:57,240
Speaker 2: just a big fundraising issue in a lot of ways,

4166
03:32:57,360 --> 03:32:59,160
Speaker 2: and in ways that I think are kind of like

4167
03:32:59,320 --> 03:33:06,160
Speaker 2: unhelpful and actually solving the problem. And I again, nobody

4168
03:33:06,600 --> 03:33:10,840
Speaker 2: knows what to do with this because it's it's so

4169
03:33:11,080 --> 03:33:15,640
Speaker 2: much like no one has ever had anything like this happen, right.

4170
03:33:15,720 --> 03:33:19,080
Speaker 2: People bring up the Dunblane massacre, the Port Arthur massacre.

4171
03:33:19,120 --> 03:33:21,840
Speaker 2: They bring out like you know, when Australia confiscated all

4172
03:33:21,879 --> 03:33:24,160
Speaker 2: those guns, like that was two hundred thousand guns, Like

4173
03:33:24,400 --> 03:33:26,840
Speaker 2: there are twenty million ar fifteens in the United States.

4174
03:33:27,200 --> 03:33:30,160
Speaker 2: There has never been a society this heavily armed, or

4175
03:33:30,320 --> 03:33:33,560
Speaker 2: a society that has turned the random mass killing of

4176
03:33:33,640 --> 03:33:37,760
Speaker 2: civilians into a meme. Yeah, both of those things have

4177
03:33:37,879 --> 03:33:41,680
Speaker 2: happened here, and they've happened alongside like the militarization of

4178
03:33:41,720 --> 03:33:47,039
Speaker 2: an increasingly unaccountable, violent police force that wants dictatorial control

4179
03:33:47,120 --> 03:33:49,640
Speaker 2: of American cities, and all of this stuff is pretty

4180
03:33:49,840 --> 03:33:53,240
Speaker 2: pretty unique historically, So yeah, I don't know how we

4181
03:33:53,360 --> 03:33:53,720
Speaker 2: fix it.

4182
03:33:54,280 --> 03:34:00,440
Speaker 3: It feels so American and unique that it feels like, yeah,

4183
03:34:00,640 --> 03:34:03,560
Speaker 3: if I knew the answer to it, I would I

4184
03:34:03,600 --> 03:34:06,080
Speaker 3: would say it, But yeah, I really do not.

4185
03:34:07,080 --> 03:34:09,240
Speaker 2: I mean, and again it's like one of those I

4186
03:34:09,280 --> 03:34:12,840
Speaker 2: don't vote. I'm not a gun issue voter. I barely

4187
03:34:12,920 --> 03:34:15,080
Speaker 2: a voter, right like, I do vote, but I don't

4188
03:34:15,120 --> 03:34:16,760
Speaker 2: believe in it. I don't believe it's going to do

4189
03:34:16,840 --> 03:34:19,280
Speaker 2: any vote as I vote as like a well, what

4190
03:34:19,400 --> 03:34:22,000
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, and it's best to

4191
03:34:22,080 --> 03:34:25,360
Speaker 2: vote and vote in the people who say you got

4192
03:34:25,440 --> 03:34:29,320
Speaker 2: to vote. If I'm wrong and they're right, then at

4193
03:34:29,440 --> 03:34:32,400
Speaker 2: least I put in the vote, and I tried that thing.

4194
03:34:32,680 --> 03:34:34,320
Speaker 2: I don't think it's going to work. I don't think

4195
03:34:34,360 --> 03:34:36,840
Speaker 2: they're going to solve any of these problems. I think

4196
03:34:38,520 --> 03:34:40,560
Speaker 2: other things are going to be happening in the future

4197
03:34:40,640 --> 03:34:44,160
Speaker 2: that are not what we recognize as part of American politics,

4198
03:34:44,200 --> 03:34:46,000
Speaker 2: but are going to become the way things get decided

4199
03:34:46,040 --> 03:34:47,440
Speaker 2: in this country. And I think they're going to be

4200
03:34:47,879 --> 03:34:50,960
Speaker 2: uglier and weirder than our parents were used to. But

4201
03:34:51,080 --> 03:34:53,440
Speaker 2: I do like voting is like a well, okay, but

4202
03:34:53,480 --> 03:34:55,000
Speaker 2: maybe I'm wrong about that. It's the same reason I

4203
03:34:55,040 --> 03:34:56,879
Speaker 2: have a four oh one k right right right, right,

4204
03:34:57,040 --> 03:34:59,199
Speaker 2: right right. Maybe there will be an economy in thirty

4205
03:34:59,320 --> 03:35:01,440
Speaker 2: years so I'll get to retire. For the same reason

4206
03:35:01,600 --> 03:35:03,280
Speaker 2: I own half of a bitcoin.

4207
03:35:03,720 --> 03:35:03,920
Speaker 4: You know.

4208
03:35:05,520 --> 03:35:09,280
Speaker 2: I'm wrong, Yeah, you know, I get it. Yeah you

4209
03:35:09,400 --> 03:35:14,320
Speaker 2: got just in case what if? Yeah, I just half

4210
03:35:14,400 --> 03:35:15,760
Speaker 2: a one. That's all I could afford.

4211
03:35:16,000 --> 03:35:19,720
Speaker 3: But the point is is, yeah, I I I just

4212
03:35:19,800 --> 03:35:24,080
Speaker 3: want to say I vote, and I also am cynical,

4213
03:35:24,720 --> 03:35:26,800
Speaker 3: and I have the exact same I have the exact

4214
03:35:26,840 --> 03:35:33,480
Speaker 3: same pessimism that you do. But you know, the real

4215
03:35:33,640 --> 03:35:36,440
Speaker 3: the only optimism that I have is there's going to

4216
03:35:36,480 --> 03:35:42,160
Speaker 3: be some someone smart who does something good. I don't

4217
03:35:42,200 --> 03:35:43,040
Speaker 3: want to miss the bus.

4218
03:35:43,200 --> 03:35:45,680
Speaker 2: I don't want to miss you know, I mean, and

4219
03:35:45,760 --> 03:35:49,600
Speaker 2: I tend to think we should all maybe if if

4220
03:35:49,840 --> 03:35:53,160
Speaker 2: people are more committed to like getting out there and

4221
03:35:53,280 --> 03:35:57,640
Speaker 2: taking personal responsibility, not necessarily not as a militia, but

4222
03:35:57,800 --> 03:36:01,480
Speaker 2: in a in a in a in a responsibility for believing.

4223
03:36:02,120 --> 03:36:04,199
Speaker 2: I think sometimes because we just had a mass shooting

4224
03:36:04,200 --> 03:36:06,000
Speaker 2: in Portland that was stopped by an armed member of

4225
03:36:06,040 --> 03:36:10,920
Speaker 2: the community, shooting at a protest for a police violence

4226
03:36:11,040 --> 03:36:15,199
Speaker 2: victim that was stopped by an armed member of the community.

4227
03:36:15,480 --> 03:36:18,680
Speaker 2: But I think community defense is everyone should have an eyefact.

4228
03:36:18,760 --> 03:36:21,920
Speaker 2: Right downside's to owning a gun, No downside to having

4229
03:36:22,000 --> 03:36:24,360
Speaker 2: a tourniquet and some gauze on you and some chess

4230
03:36:24,400 --> 03:36:26,720
Speaker 2: seals and knowing how to use them. Zero downside could

4231
03:36:26,760 --> 03:36:28,680
Speaker 2: be useful in a car accident. You can have a

4232
03:36:28,760 --> 03:36:31,480
Speaker 2: fucking piece of rebar fall off of a building construction

4233
03:36:31,560 --> 03:36:33,360
Speaker 2: and pail somebody and maybe you'd get to save their

4234
03:36:33,400 --> 03:36:35,920
Speaker 2: life with an IFAC. Million times that could be useful.

4235
03:36:36,200 --> 03:36:39,600
Speaker 2: Have an ifact right organized in your community, to provide

4236
03:36:39,879 --> 03:36:43,920
Speaker 2: houseless people with you know, defense against sweeps, to provide

4237
03:36:43,920 --> 03:36:46,880
Speaker 2: people who are low income with eviction defense, to stock

4238
03:36:46,959 --> 03:36:51,560
Speaker 2: food pantries, like all of that stuff is uh. You

4239
03:36:51,640 --> 03:36:53,600
Speaker 2: can wear you can wear cool uniforms if you want.

4240
03:36:53,640 --> 03:36:54,920
Speaker 2: While you do, you can get a plate carrier. You

4241
03:36:54,959 --> 03:36:56,120
Speaker 2: can put patches on it, you know.

4242
03:36:56,480 --> 03:36:58,400
Speaker 3: Can I wear tactical sunglasses?

4243
03:36:58,879 --> 03:37:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? Why the hell not? Yeah, be the be the

4244
03:37:01,440 --> 03:37:06,560
Speaker 2: be the be the tactile sunglass guy. Yeah whatever, make

4245
03:37:06,600 --> 03:37:09,200
Speaker 2: it make it cool, just help your help. Your black

4246
03:37:09,240 --> 03:37:11,200
Speaker 2: panthers look cool as ship when they were like serving

4247
03:37:11,240 --> 03:37:13,720
Speaker 2: food to kids, you know, yeah, they had they had swag.

4248
03:37:13,920 --> 03:37:16,760
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, they wore berets and they made berets

4249
03:37:16,800 --> 03:37:17,440
Speaker 2: look bad ass.

4250
03:37:17,680 --> 03:37:17,800
Speaker 3: You know.

4251
03:37:17,879 --> 03:37:21,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, look as how and protect your community. And yeah,

4252
03:37:22,280 --> 03:37:23,240
Speaker 2: yeah it.

4253
03:37:23,240 --> 03:37:25,320
Speaker 3: Doesn't mean you need to own a gun. But maybe

4254
03:37:26,000 --> 03:37:28,840
Speaker 3: a little more community involvement might be helpful and.

4255
03:37:28,920 --> 03:37:31,280
Speaker 2: All variety of things that you can you can do.

4256
03:37:31,680 --> 03:37:34,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, abolishing the police.

4257
03:37:35,680 --> 03:37:40,199
Speaker 2: That is a good idea. Anyway, Matt got.

4258
03:37:41,440 --> 03:37:45,040
Speaker 3: Oh man, I've had a great time. And if you

4259
03:37:45,720 --> 03:37:51,640
Speaker 3: love uh, the bastards and getting behind them, you'll love u.

4260
03:37:52,280 --> 03:37:56,360
Speaker 3: The podcast pot yourself a gun a sobranos Rewatch podcast

4261
03:37:57,160 --> 03:37:59,680
Speaker 3: that me and my friend Vince Mancini do. We just

4262
03:37:59,720 --> 03:38:02,280
Speaker 3: finish the entire series so you can re listen and

4263
03:38:02,440 --> 03:38:05,520
Speaker 3: rewatch the whole thing and it's great. You'll love it.

4264
03:38:05,920 --> 03:38:09,720
Speaker 3: And uh yeah, you look forward to us doing our

4265
03:38:10,040 --> 03:38:13,640
Speaker 3: the Wire podcast very soon. It's going to be great

4266
03:38:14,560 --> 03:38:18,400
Speaker 3: and uh, you know, speaking about cops being bastards. It's

4267
03:38:18,400 --> 03:38:19,280
Speaker 3: a whole show about it.

4268
03:38:19,520 --> 03:38:21,600
Speaker 2: So you'll you'll love it.

4269
03:38:22,040 --> 03:38:26,920
Speaker 3: And I promise you that, you know, well, we're not gonna,

4270
03:38:27,879 --> 03:38:30,480
Speaker 3: you know, be it's two white guys talking about the Wire.

4271
03:38:30,640 --> 03:38:33,240
Speaker 2: We're not gonna it's you know, so just don't worry.

4272
03:38:33,440 --> 03:38:33,880
Speaker 2: It's good.

4273
03:38:34,000 --> 03:38:36,960
Speaker 3: It'll be good, you'll, I promise. I don't know how

4274
03:38:36,959 --> 03:38:37,320
Speaker 3: to say that.

4275
03:38:37,440 --> 03:38:38,880
Speaker 2: Well, I'm excited to listen to it.

4276
03:38:39,040 --> 03:38:44,440
Speaker 3: We don't you know, we're leftists. Anyways, I'm excited follow

4277
03:38:44,520 --> 03:38:47,040
Speaker 3: me at matt leab jokes on Instagram.

4278
03:38:47,520 --> 03:38:52,600
Speaker 2: Follow Matt Lib home. You have a Twitter track, I

4279
03:38:52,680 --> 03:38:53,360
Speaker 2: do it's.

4280
03:38:53,360 --> 03:38:56,040
Speaker 3: It's it's at matt lib and you can follow me

4281
03:38:56,120 --> 03:38:59,200
Speaker 3: there too. That's fine, but no jokes, no jokes on

4282
03:38:59,280 --> 03:39:02,800
Speaker 3: that one. That's definitely serious, that one. You know, I

4283
03:39:02,959 --> 03:39:05,800
Speaker 3: just post whatever today. In fact, I posted something from

4284
03:39:05,840 --> 03:39:10,040
Speaker 3: a doomsday dried food ad that I saw good and

4285
03:39:10,959 --> 03:39:13,080
Speaker 3: it was really weird. It was like a Mac versus

4286
03:39:13,160 --> 03:39:17,720
Speaker 3: PC commercial, but they made the doomsday the like you know,

4287
03:39:18,240 --> 03:39:21,119
Speaker 3: dried food guy. You know, he was talking about his product,

4288
03:39:21,160 --> 03:39:23,840
Speaker 3: and then the other guy who was selling the fake

4289
03:39:24,000 --> 03:39:28,760
Speaker 3: Patriot food was very much an anti Semitic meme.

4290
03:39:29,160 --> 03:39:31,280
Speaker 2: Oh god, oh yeah yeah.

4291
03:39:31,320 --> 03:39:35,800
Speaker 3: They made him very clearly a Jew and he's it

4292
03:39:35,959 --> 03:39:38,600
Speaker 3: opened hello fellow Patriots.

4293
03:39:38,640 --> 03:39:40,039
Speaker 2: And I was like, holy fun.

4294
03:39:40,920 --> 03:39:44,760
Speaker 3: They went for it, and uh yeah. So I posted

4295
03:39:44,800 --> 03:39:47,400
Speaker 3: a little bit of that and you love.

4296
03:39:47,320 --> 03:39:47,680
Speaker 2: To see it.

4297
03:39:48,080 --> 03:39:53,800
Speaker 3: You love to see just straight up anti semitism on

4298
03:39:54,400 --> 03:39:57,640
Speaker 3: the This was an Instagram ad, by the way, but hey,

4299
03:39:57,760 --> 03:39:58,120
Speaker 3: it was on.

4300
03:40:00,280 --> 03:40:00,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

4301
03:40:00,879 --> 03:40:03,560
Speaker 3: Anyways, follow me on all the things and.

4302
03:40:04,280 --> 03:40:08,600
Speaker 2: Learned to can. Look it's cheaper than food buckets, yes,

4303
03:40:09,040 --> 03:40:11,440
Speaker 2: learn to can and it works way better. It does

4304
03:40:11,520 --> 03:40:12,720
Speaker 2: work very well. Yeah.

4305
03:40:16,360 --> 03:40:19,040
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

4306
03:40:19,400 --> 03:40:22,640
Speaker 4: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

4307
03:40:22,840 --> 03:40:26,040
Speaker 4: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

4308
03:40:26,120 --> 03:40:27,600
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

4309
03:40:27,680 --> 03:40:28,480
Speaker 1: Get your podcasts.

4310
03:40:28,879 --> 03:40:33,000
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every.

4311
03:40:32,840 --> 03:40:34,039
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday.

4312
03:40:34,400 --> 03:40:38,120
Speaker 4: Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind

4313
03:40:38,160 --> 03:40:38,760
Speaker 4: the Bastards