1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: The nineties was a decade bookended by Anita Hill and 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Monica Lewinsky. It gave us MTV's Boxers or Briefs moment, 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: popularize the concept of the milf, and spawned the first 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: ever sex tape, once Stolen from the home of Pamela 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Anderson and Tommy Lee. 6 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: It was an era that. 7 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: Inspired a decade of boob jobs, popularized restaurants like Hooters, 8 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: and gave us girls Gone Wild. But what did all 9 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: of those things really teach us about love and sex? 10 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 3: Back then? 11 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: And now? We ask a sex expert. 12 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 3: In twenty nineteen, Gwyneth Paltrow did not know the word vulva. 13 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 3: She did not know that her volvo was not her vagina, which, 14 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 3: as I say in come As, you are calling your 15 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 3: vulva your vagina is like calling your face your throat. 16 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie vannacaarm And this is 17 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: in Retrospect, where each week we revisit a cultural moment 18 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: from the past that shaped us. 19 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 4: And that we just can't stop thinking about today. 20 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: We're joined by sex educator and best selling author there 21 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: Emily Nagowski. 22 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 2: Her new book Come Together is out this month. 23 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: So I've listened to your podcast, and I know that 24 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: on your podcast, which I think was a limited run, 25 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: you talked about how you know you weren't that into 26 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: pop culture as a young teen, But in fact I 27 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: love that on. 28 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: One of my all time favorite. 29 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: Shows, sex Education, your book actually makes an appearance, which 30 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: was huge for me. 31 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: Anyway. 32 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I found out about that because everyone sent me 33 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 3: the little clip of it happening. But we don't have Netflix. 34 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 3: That's not a flex. We have like lots and lots 35 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 3: of everything. We just don't happen to have lost it. 36 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: I've never seen the show and never ever, not even 37 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 2: your episode. 38 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,639 Speaker 3: Nope, I've seen like the five seconds oh so funny, 39 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 3: the person saying you should read come as you are. 40 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like they do an amazing job 41 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: of breaking down some taboos and talking openly about sexuality. 42 00:01:58,840 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: Though, when I was. 43 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: Talking to my therapist about you yesterday in our session 44 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: as happens, she was like, well, okay, but in the 45 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: first season of Sex Education, they really confused the vagina 46 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: and the vulva, which I had totally missed. 47 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 3: So what do they do well? What makes you just 48 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 3: feel like, oh, this is better than it has been 49 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: in the past. 50 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: I guess I like that it doesn't feel so heavy handed, 51 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: like sexuality is. 52 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 4: Just a part. 53 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the plot of the show, but they're 54 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: not making it like they're forcing it down your throat 55 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: or trying to teach you. And I guess one of 56 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: the things I remember from growing up in the nineties, 57 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: which is what we're here to talk about today, is 58 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: that everyone was portrayed, or at least the teenagers I 59 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: watched on television and movies seem to be portrayed as 60 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: these like sex hungry maniacs, where that was absolutely the 61 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: only thing that they could think about. And I'm curious 62 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: if you had that experience too. What were you consuming 63 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: in the nineties. 64 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 3: I mean, what was I consuming in the nineties. I 65 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: have never been anyone's target audience. We literally didn't even 66 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 3: have cable television. I didn't have cable television until I 67 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 3: was I didn't either there, so I didn't see any 68 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 3: of the things that people saw. 69 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: What are the things you saw that other people didn't see? 70 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 3: I mean I watched a lot of PBS. Okay, when 71 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 3: we finally did get the beginnings of cable in nineteen 72 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 3: ninety three ish I watched a lot of inside the 73 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 3: actors studio, okay, but I read a lot. So my 74 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: primary sex education came from a combination of women's magazines, 75 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 3: especially Glamour magazine and romance novels. 76 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: Okay, and what did those teach you? 77 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 3: So I remember very distinctly reading an article in Glamor 78 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: magazine where I learned that men really like it when 79 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 3: women appear to be enjoying themselves, and so you should 80 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 3: make a lot of noise, and you should touch yourself, 81 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 3: like touch your own breasts and your own body, and 82 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 3: you should say how much you like it, because men 83 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 3: really love it women appeared to be enjoying themselves. So 84 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 3: by the time I got to sexual relationships, my assumption 85 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 3: was that it was my job to perform pleasure without 86 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 3: any reference to whether or not something actually felt pleasurable. 87 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: Right, Right. 88 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: It took some time for me to recognize that I 89 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 3: was doing this stuff that they do in romance novels. 90 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: Right. 91 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 3: So, basically, there's a script. You start with the face stuff, 92 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: boob stuff, You follow the bases, you get to the genitals. 93 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: Your genitals get hungry to have something inside them. Your 94 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 3: knees fall apart, you're duh, you'd want penetration, and penetration happens, 95 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 3: and you spiral upwards, enveloped in a cloud of ecstasy. 96 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 2: So exactly how it happens. 97 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 4: It turns out. 98 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: That's not how it happens. I was shocked to discover. 99 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: So I was doing the things that the romance novels 100 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 3: told me I was supposed to do in terms of behavior. 101 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 3: I was acting like a person who enjoyed those things. 102 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 3: And within about six months I started getting really clear 103 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: that there was a very big difference between the things 104 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 3: I was doing that I was told were pleasurable and the 105 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 3: things that actually were pleasurable. I got to college in 106 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five, and one of the very first things 107 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 3: I did was ride my bike to the library and 108 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 3: go to the sex section and read the HEP Report. 109 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 2: Ah. 110 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 3: It took me three or four days, but I read 111 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 3: as much of it was there. There were literally pages 112 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 3: cut out with scissors. 113 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: Really, what, yeah, is this University of Delaware, Okay? 114 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 3: Born and raised in Delaware. My one true claim to 115 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: fame is that Jill Biden was my tenth grade English teacher. 116 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, really, yeah, Delaware is a very small stage. 117 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 3: So there's only one copy of the height Report. Many 118 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 3: like a big chunk of pages had been cut out. 119 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 3: Notice that I went back to the library over and 120 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: over to keep reading this very large book because I 121 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 3: was too embarrassed to check it out. 122 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 2: How did you know about the hype Report. 123 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,679 Speaker 3: I didn't. I just looked for the large just book 124 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 3: in the sex section. 125 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, And turns out everyone else had done that too. 126 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 3: Somebody had taken a bunch of pages with them. 127 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: Okay. 128 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: And to back up for a moment, you are a 129 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: sex educator, but you at this point I don't think 130 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: knew that you wanted to be a sex educator. 131 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: Not at all. You know, I was a big nerd 132 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 3: by the time I got to college. All I knew 133 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 3: was that I wanted to go to grad school for something. 134 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: And I thought, Oh, you need volunteer work on your 135 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 3: resume so that you look like a good candidate for 136 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 3: graduate school. 137 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: Okay. 138 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 3: And a guy living on my floor in my residence 139 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 3: hall was pre med and he said, oh, come be 140 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 3: a pure health educator with me. So you go into 141 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: residence halls and talk about like all kinds of health. Yeah, 142 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 3: that includes sexual health, which is mostly condoms, contraception, and consent, 143 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 3: and I was like, I like health, why not? So 144 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 3: I applied and I got accepted, and I got trained 145 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 3: to be a health educator for my fellow undergraduates at 146 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: the exact same time that I was being trained to 147 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 3: be a sex educate. My very first year in undergrad 148 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five ninety six, I got into my first 149 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: sexual relationship, which ended up being abusive. He became my 150 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: stalker and I'd called the police and it was very 151 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 3: bad news. So at the same time that I was 152 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 3: having my first experience in that kind of relationship, in 153 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 3: any kind of sexual relationship with someone who wasn't me, 154 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 3: I was also learning all this stuff about sexual communication 155 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 3: and sexual health and how periods work and the whole enchilada. 156 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 3: So I feel like it was an incredible privilege to 157 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 3: be learning what it's supposed to be like while I 158 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: am doing it. I mean, I made every mistake. I 159 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 3: did everything wrong, like what Unlike the students I taught. 160 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 3: When I was teaching undergrad, I didn't know as an 161 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 3: undergrad that your early relationships are very likely to recapitulate 162 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: the dynamic of your family of origin. I didn't know 163 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 3: that As a child, your body learns what love looks 164 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 3: and feels like. So if you think back to what 165 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 3: your family was like when you're, you know, approximately four 166 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 3: years old, the relationships of the adults around you when 167 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: you're four, would you love your life if those were 168 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: similar to the relationships you have as an adult. 169 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: No. 170 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 3: If you answer yes to that question, then your earliest 171 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 3: relationships are probably going to be kind of great. 172 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, Oh interesting. 173 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 3: I did not. My early relationships were not kind of great. 174 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So this is ninety five. What was happening politically 175 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: in sex education? Like, set the scene a little bit 176 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: for me from your expert perch about what was happening 177 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: in the culture then around us. 178 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 3: I mean, we were just coming out of the AIDS crisis. 179 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 3: Effective medication for controlling HIV were brand new, which means 180 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 3: that everyone was really eager to forget as soon as 181 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 3: they possibly could. I didn't know the term GLBT on 182 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 3: my campus in nineteen ninety five. It was GLBT, yeah, 183 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 3: which it would soon change to LGBT in honor of 184 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 3: the role that the lesbian community played in caring for 185 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 3: the gay community, who were much more heavily impacted by 186 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 3: the AIDS crisis, So I heard lesbian and heard bisexual 187 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 3: for the first time in nineteen ninety five because it 188 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 3: was on college campuses that those conversations were happening. Had 189 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 3: nothing of that in my high school or junior high 190 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 3: sex education. I did get enough sex education in Delaware, 191 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 3: a comparatively progressive state. In the eighth grade, I learned 192 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 3: that HIV could not be transmitted through a drinking straw, 193 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 3: or by sharing a can of soda, or by sitting 194 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,239 Speaker 3: on a toilet seat, which was great. I remember correcting 195 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 3: my grandmother, who wanted us to squat over public toilets 196 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 3: so that we didn't get AIDS. Oh wow, And like 197 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 3: I could tell her because I had had some sex education, 198 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 3: that you can't get HIV that way. She did not 199 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 3: believe me. Okay, well, but she was my grandmother. She 200 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 3: was raised in the depression and changes slow. 201 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: To what extent did you learn about your own body 202 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: or about women's sexuality, if at all, in your sex 203 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: education courses. 204 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 3: I feel sure that I learned more than most people 205 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 3: do because I was really curious without knowing why I 206 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 3: was curious. But in the sixth grade, there was a 207 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 3: like a book giveaway of like, here are all these 208 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 3: textbooks we're no longer using. Oh, if you want to 209 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: take these textbooks, children feel free. And I took all 210 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 3: of the reproductive health books you did get my hands on. 211 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 3: I was very interested. 212 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: So there were a lot of signs of your future profession. 213 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: You just didn't know them yet. 214 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 3: I had no idea why I was interested. But it 215 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 3: was all biology. It was all the menstrual cycle and 216 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 3: nocturnal emissions, as it always is. The sixth grade we 217 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: got divided by group. I had already started having my 218 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 3: period by the time we had that, so I was 219 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 3: just like, neither of this is describing what it's actual. 220 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: And what was happening politically at the time, Like I 221 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: just keep thinking about Okay. So the nineties was bookended 222 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: by the Clarence Thomas hearings, which are typically referred to 223 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 1: as they need a Hill hearings, but he was the 224 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: one that was being questioned. And then the Bill Clinton 225 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: Monica Lewinsky scandal, which was in ninety eight and which 226 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: was I think for me a real sex education. I 227 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: specifically remember reading the Star Report in high school sort 228 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: of like sneaking behind the lockers and like, okay, I 229 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: mean yeah, Seattle and the nineties. Man, so yeah, we 230 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: were reading the Star Report. But like the cigar I mean, 231 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: I let that's like I learned that, yes, that was 232 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: your hyper and yes, exactly. 233 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, learning that a cigar could be inserted into a 234 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 3: vagina and people might think that was a sexy thing 235 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: to do. 236 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: Right, And I think that I only know this because 237 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: I then later profiled Monica Lensky and I've done a 238 00:11:58,480 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: lot of research on it. 239 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 2: Cigar sales went through the roof. Yeah, yeah, but. 240 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 3: So you know how you're talking about how the sort 241 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 3: of representation of teenagers in the movies was that teenagers 242 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 3: were all super horny. 243 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 5: Yes. 244 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 3: I think of the nineties as sort of the transition 245 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: from second to third wave feminism, and there was this 246 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 3: sort of cluging around sexuality which never really got resolved. 247 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: In second wave feminism, there were the sex wars, and like, 248 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 3: we never really figured out a position to have about 249 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 3: sex as like a good or a bad thing, porn 250 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 3: as a good or a bad thing. I have so 251 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 3: many things to say, but I think what happened in 252 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 3: the nineties is that popular culture took the idea that 253 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 3: sex could be a good thing for women it took 254 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 3: the sort of sexual revolution as far as it had 255 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 3: gone so far, and said, okay, so teenage girls are 256 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 3: just as horny and wacky as teenage boys, because in 257 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 3: order for men and women to be equal, women had 258 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 3: to be like men. And so the way teenage girls 259 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 3: sexuality got represented in the media was as if it 260 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 3: were the same as every teenage boy's fantasy, which is 261 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: to say, just the same as theirs. Easy, fast, vaginally 262 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 3: oriented American pie gets talked about a lot, Thank the 263 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 3: Good Lord for Eugene Levy. 264 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: But so the flute scene, okay, please, because okay, this 265 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: came out in nineteen eighty nine, so I was a 266 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: junior in high school. 267 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 2: We all obviously watched it. 268 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: People were talking about it, the pie seeing it like 269 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: he masturbates with the pie, like everyone now knows this. 270 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: I feel like so many things came out of this movie, 271 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 1: including the popularization of the term milf, which was Stiffler's 272 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: mom that. 273 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: I did not realize. 274 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think the term originated there, but 275 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: like that's when I learned it, and it was played 276 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: by Jennifer Coolidge, and so anyway, that's another thing that 277 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: came out of that but I. 278 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: Was in the orchestra. 279 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: I played the violin, And there is the scene in 280 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: American Pie where we learn that the flute player has 281 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: masturbated with her flue. 282 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 3: Did she masturbate with it? Because here's what I remember 283 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 3: her saying is that she put her flute in her vagina. 284 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 5: Mm. 285 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: Interesting, yeah, actually bare point. 286 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 3: And as a sex educator, I hear that, and I 287 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 3: do not hear masturbation. I hear experimentation with a like, huh, 288 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: Foullis shaped object when I know that only very roughly 289 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 3: ten percent of people with vagina's masturbate with vaginal penetration. 290 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: So interesting, That's so I think she was just like 291 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: I need. Yeah, she was messing around. But of course 292 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: that then became the thing that, like, I could never 293 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: go to orchestra again without like all of the guys 294 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: snickering every time one of the women would play the flute. 295 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, of course, because the whole function of 296 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 3: that story is not to talk about her sexual experience 297 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 3: or her sexual pleasure, but to create a visual image 298 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 3: for the boys to masturbate too. I mean, just like 299 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 3: what I learned from Glamour magazine in the nineties, women's 300 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 3: sexual self expression exists for the pleasure of men. 301 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: I was just talking to one of my editors about Glamour. 302 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: I was working on a piece about Britney Spears and hair, 303 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: the politics of hair, because she talks in her new 304 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: book about thrashing her hair and when she shaved her 305 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: head and how it made her ugly and for the 306 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: first time in her life she was not sexualized. But 307 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: we were talking about remembering some of those sex tips 308 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: that we learned from magazines like Glamour, where they would 309 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: tell you to use your hair during the sex act 310 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: like either twirlet or like you know, run it down 311 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: a guy's chest or something, which is just so hilarious 312 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: to think about now, But back then we didn't have 313 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: the knowledge or experience to note that that was anything 314 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: but a weird thing head made up. 315 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, like, if you're into that, go 316 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 2: for it. 317 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: But the brushing of the hair, like your partner's body 318 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 3: might respond well to the sensation of your hair brushing 319 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 3: against them until the right circumstances, is not the same 320 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 3: as like play with your hair, perform your hair area 321 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: for the other person to witness. 322 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: Right. 323 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: This is one of the things that I find so 324 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: refreshing about your work is that you take these commonly 325 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: held assumptions or things that we have heard, and then 326 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: you basically debunk them or unravel them to reveal what 327 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: is actually going on. 328 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: It's one of the reasons why even now, when I 329 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 3: have lots of different channels for viewing pop culture, kind 330 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 3: of don't watch a lot of it because when it 331 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 3: involves sex, like, the thing goes off in my head 332 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 3: and I have to be like that it has not 333 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 3: how that works. 334 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like we need the annotations from you while 335 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: we are watching the thing. 336 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, like, ps, this is fine. And also just know 337 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 3: that it's actually really rare for a person to be 338 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 3: able to go instantaneously from being very stressed out to 339 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 3: feeling very turned on. For most people, that's not how 340 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 3: it works. 341 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: What are the things that you remember consuming in the 342 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: nineties that made you think twice or as an adult 343 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: you realize that that's actually not an accurate representation. 344 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 3: There's something about Mary. 345 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, what bothered you about that one? 346 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 3: Yeah? So the thing from There's Something about Mary is 347 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 3: that Cameron Diaz uses ejaculate that is dangling off of 348 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 3: She's like, oh, it's hair gel, and she puts it 349 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: in her hair. Yeah, anyone who is actually touched, touched 350 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 3: any ejaculate knows that it just does not bear any 351 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 3: relationships the texture of hair gel. Like it's a silly idea, 352 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 3: but as a nerd, I just find it totally unbelievable 353 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 3: and it reflects negatively on the intelligence of Cameron Diaz's 354 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 3: character that she could possibly mistake the texture of ejaculate 355 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: for the texture of hair gel. And also can she 356 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: not smell it? Like, it doesn't smell like hairjel. There's 357 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 3: no hair gel. It is ejaculate scented fresh scent. Yeah. 358 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: Wait, you mentioned Eugene Levy earlier. 359 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: Do you have some fun fact about Eugene Levy in 360 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: American Pie? 361 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 3: Well, so, from what I've heard, he was initially not 362 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 3: very interested in playing the father, and he worked with 363 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 3: them pretty intensively to shape the character into what like 364 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 3: a father might actually do. And I love the way 365 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 3: as a dat he does not play into like, yeah, son, 366 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 3: go get as much of that blussy as you can get. 367 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 3: But he also doesn't dismiss his son sexuality. He wants 368 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 3: to protect him from the inevitable embarrassments of being a 369 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 3: teenage boy, like, we'll just have to tell your mother 370 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 3: we ate the whole thing, and like brings him porn, which, 371 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: you know what for the mid nineties, fairly progressive to be. 372 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 2: Like here, yeah, here it is. 373 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 3: This is a normal part of life. 374 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 4: This is hustler, and this is a much more exotic magazine. 375 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: Are there common sex myths that you still come across today? 376 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: I don't think are you teaching at the moment, but 377 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: I know that you are generally teaching, and so I'm 378 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: sure that this comes up in class. 379 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, Over the last few since the pandemic, in particular, 380 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 3: I have spent more time training professionals, training therapists, and 381 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 3: it is sometimes distressing how many of the same misunderstandings 382 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 3: and myths stay in their minds as I meet within 383 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 3: college students. Several years ago, I talked to a woman 384 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 3: who was recently out of college. She came to a 385 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 3: talk and she said, so, this thing I learned in 386 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 3: high school was that if you masturbate, if you teach 387 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 3: yourself how to have an orgasm by yourself, you won't 388 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 3: be able to have an orgasm with a partner. And 389 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 3: she's like a full grown adult and is asking this question. 390 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, it's the opposite of true. Actually, 391 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: if as a young person you learn how orgasm works 392 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 3: in your body, that means you know how orgasm works 393 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 3: in your body, so that when you're with another person, 394 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 3: which is a much more complex situation where part of 395 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 3: your brain might be tuned into what's happening in your body, 396 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 3: but part of your brain is also tuned in to 397 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: what's going on for your partner, and so HM, with 398 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 3: your attention split like that, it's actually more difficult to 399 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 3: focus on pleasure and let your body have an orgasm. 400 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 3: So it's great if you've already got the groundwork laid, 401 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 3: so to speak, for knowing like what the path is 402 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 3: to get to orgasm in your body, then you can 403 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 3: teach your partner how to follow that path. Okay, And 404 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 3: I got asked almost exactly the same question by a 405 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 3: therapist and a training five years later. 406 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: Was this a sex therapist? 407 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: No? 408 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 3: No, no, no no, So this is like marriage and 409 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 3: family therapist, couples therapists like it makes you feel slightly 410 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: about her, but like you do worry? 411 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: Right, are there other things that you remember consuming in 412 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: the nineties. I think you mentioned the X files. 413 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. 414 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 3: So probably one of the very best episodes of The 415 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 3: X Files is Small Potatoes, which is an episode about 416 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 3: a shape shifter. Sunday got in all New X Files. 417 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 3: How do you find someone? 418 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: We're looking for a man who can appear to be 419 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: his own father or anyone else. 420 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 3: Who can transform him. So is everything okay into anyone 421 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 3: who these days would be called an in cell okay, 422 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 3: except that he was not celibate because he would shape 423 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 3: shift into the forms of more attractive men who had partners, 424 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 3: and he would have sex with them the women and 425 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 3: he got found out because they were having babies with tails. 426 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 3: Now this is actually, on reflection, a story of serial rapist, 427 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 3: and it is treated as comedy, right, I mean it's. 428 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: A farce, right right right In the nineties when I. 429 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: Watched it, I just all all I focused on was 430 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 3: the comedy because that is how they framed it. And 431 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: in retrospect, uh like, actually violent sexual perpetrator yikes. 432 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: Right right, I mean there's so many examples of that, right, 433 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: Like if you look back, we just did an episode 434 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: on Dawson's Creek. 435 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 3: Which I have never seen. 436 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a terrible more power to you like 437 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't great, then it's not great on rewatch, so 438 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: I know there are a lot of fans and I 439 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: did watch it. But there's this one storyline where Pacey, 440 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: who is the off lead character, he's the best friend 441 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: of Dawson, who the show is named after, begins a 442 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: relationship with and loses his virginity to his English teacher 443 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: and oh right, yeah, grown woman, and it's just portrayed 444 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: as super hot, and I remember as a teenager being like, oh, 445 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: I want to see what happens with this relationship, like 446 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: that's so hot, and obviously in retrospect that was a 447 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: statutory rape, right, So. 448 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 2: Many portrayals like that. 449 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: But I was even thinking back to just like basic 450 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: things that I internalized in high school that it took 451 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: me years to realize we're not true. So I just learned, 452 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: I think in the last six months from Twitter. Thanks Twitter, 453 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: I guess that blue balls are not real. When did 454 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: you just learn this, like five seconds ago? Oh and 455 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: I'm married to a man. 456 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: And he was like, Babe, like, yeah, of course they're 457 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: not really, it's so here And I was like, uh wait, 458 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: what I. 459 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 3: Would be interested if you could find out where you 460 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 3: learned it, because I don't remember where I learned of 461 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 3: it either. 462 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: I mean maybe just like people talking about it or 463 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: like being in sexual contexts where you but I don't 464 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: even think some a guy would have said it. I 465 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: think it was like, oh, we all knew that, like 466 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: it was going to be so so painful for a 467 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: man if you somehow aroused them and then didn't finish it. 468 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 3: Right. 469 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 470 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 3: So again, I had the good fortune of being trained 471 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 3: as a sex educator even before I started being sexual myself, 472 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 3: and I explicitly remember being told that, like some guys 473 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 3: will try to use this narrative of blue balls as 474 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 3: justification for trying to persuade a partner. No, they have 475 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 3: to continue doing a thing or else harm will come 476 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 3: to them. And so like the deal is, no. Can 477 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 3: it be uncomfortable to be aroused for a very long 478 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 3: time and not have an orgasm? Yeah, there's a reason 479 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 3: why those vagerate commercials say if your erection lasts more 480 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,479 Speaker 3: than four hours, seek medical help, because it can be 481 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 3: really uncomfortable. Nothing bad happens to you, there's nothing dangerous 482 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 3: about it. It's a little bit like getting a Charlie horse. 483 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 3: So it's not real comfortable. But the underlying narrative behind 484 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 3: it is that boys have a sexual imperative, a need, 485 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 3: and because it's a biological need, they are entitled to 486 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 3: have that need met or else something bad could happen 487 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 3: to them. This is a narrative that has been in 488 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: place for very long time. If you go back and 489 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 3: read sex manuals from the late eighteen hundred of the 490 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 3: late nineteenth century, you'll begin to see the split between 491 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 3: the people who say, then have a biological need for 492 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 3: sexual release, and they use that as an argument in 493 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 3: favor of legalizing prostitution as a matter of fact, in 494 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 3: order to spare all these men's wives having to have 495 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 3: all the sex that men need or else. And then 496 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: you have on the other side, right at the turn 497 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 3: of the century, you begin to hear from sex educators 498 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 3: who are like, it is not a biological need, nothing 499 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 3: bad happens to men if they don't have any sort 500 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 3: of sexual release. Men just need to learn how to 501 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 3: control themselves, and they use it as an argument in 502 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 3: favor of abstinence only. 503 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 2: Until marriage, right right, right right. 504 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 3: And you do kind of look back and wish that 505 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 3: either side could have found something better to do with 506 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 3: their time. So biologically it is not a need. I 507 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 3: don't think that that's an argument in favor of abstinence 508 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 3: only before marriage. So if you've read Girls by Peggy Ornstein, 509 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 3: her book Girls and her book Boys are both raw. 510 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 2: Dropping girls and sex, Girls and. 511 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 3: Sex and boys and sex, Thank you very much. One 512 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 3: story that I remember from Girls is from a teenager 513 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 3: that she interviewed who said, this guy came over to 514 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 3: my house and we were making out and that was 515 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 3: sort of all I wanted to do, but he wanted 516 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: to have sex, and so like I gave him a 517 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 3: blowjob so that he would leave my house. Yeah, And 518 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 3: on the one hand, like, hooray for survival strategies, hooray 519 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 3: for finding a way out of that situation where she 520 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 3: was not putting herself in the path of physical harm, 521 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 3: which is a potential thing. 522 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 2: Did she feel in danger were she to leave or 523 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 2: did she. 524 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 3: She felt like she had no other way to get 525 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 3: him to leave the house. She wanted him to go. 526 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 3: He kept saying, no, I wasn't gonna go. He wanted 527 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 3: to have sex, all come on, all that stuff, Like 528 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 3: the only way to get him out of the house 529 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 3: was to give him something. But on the other hand, 530 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 3: like that's that's like deeply not okay, and none of 531 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 3: us would want a daughter of our own to be 532 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 3: in the situation. 533 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that reminds me of another lesson that I 534 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: think I learned and internalized as a teenager, which was 535 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: no does not mean no, No means convince me. And 536 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: the number of times that played out, and I think, 537 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, I think that that was very prominent in 538 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: like teen films at that time, like even It's Super Bad. 539 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: I think the guys there are talking about, you know, 540 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: if you if you get here. 541 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: Drunk enough, she'll she'll say yes. 542 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: But another one of those lessons, I guess I'm curious 543 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: how much of your work is almost about re education, 544 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: like re educating us on how things actually work after 545 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: years and years and years of being misinformed. 546 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 3: Ninety eight point nine percent of my work is simply 547 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 3: like that thing you learned before, that's not true. I 548 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: understand why you believed it. It was the thing you 549 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 3: were taught, and why wouldn't you believe the thing that 550 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 3: you were taught. So some of the things are about facts, 551 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 3: like blue balls. That's just like a biological reality. Is 552 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 3: that no tissue damn which occurs to a human in 553 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 3: the absence of sexual release, right, Like, that's just a 554 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 3: fact when it comes to things like no means no, yeah, 555 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 3: And if you have sex with someone who's drunk, that's 556 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 3: sexual assault. That's like a cultural relearning where you're shifting 557 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 3: people's norms, even people's morals, in their understanding of what 558 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 3: it means to be a sexual person, how to be 559 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 3: a good sexual partner. And ultimately it's deconstructing this gender binary, right, 560 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 3: like rejecting the whole idea that like men have one 561 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 3: sexual script and women have another sexual script, and those 562 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 3: are the only sexual scripts that exist, and you have 563 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 3: to follow the one that you've been given. And there 564 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,719 Speaker 3: is a complexity here because on the one hand, no 565 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 3: means no, and having sex with a drug person is assault, 566 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 3: and because the script for girls is that you're not 567 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 3: allowed to initiate even though you're supposed to really enjoy 568 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 3: sex and you're supposed to you have a great time 569 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 3: when you have sex, and you're supposed to be a 570 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 3: sexual person who is good at the sex, you also 571 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 3: are supposed to not want sex. You're not supposed to 572 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 3: initiate sex, and you were not supposed to say yes 573 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 3: because wanting it and liking it are not very feminine. 574 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 3: We have both of these competing scripts simultaneously. And so 575 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 3: for a long time, girls in real life who are 576 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 3: exploring their sexuality, trying to find out what it is 577 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 3: they want in life didn't feel cultural permission to go 578 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 3: ahead and say yes to the things that they wanted 579 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 3: and liked, right, And so maybe they would say no 580 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 3: and do things that they wanted to do, but they 581 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 3: were saying the no they felt they were supposed to say. Like, 582 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 3: I think there has been a complexity and a grayness, 583 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 3: Like there's been controversy over the Christmas song Baby It's 584 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 3: called outside, Yeah Yeah, where like she's saying no, but 585 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: she's saying no because she feels like she's not allowed 586 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 3: to say yes, and she actually like really wants to 587 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 3: say yes. 588 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 2: Yep, yep. Wait, what are the lyrics? 589 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 3: I really can't stay it's cold outside. I gotta go away. 590 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 3: It's cold outside. This evening has been so very nice 591 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 3: and warm. I ought to. 592 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:20,239 Speaker 2: Say no, no you at least I'm gonna say that. 593 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 3: I wait, but it's cold outside. She sings it too, 594 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 3: but it's cold outside, So there's ambiguity. 595 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: You're describing cultural scripts which of course are an important 596 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: part of this. But it's almost as if the more 597 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: factual things you're discussing, the things that we learned in 598 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: the wrong way. 599 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 2: Get talked about less. 600 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: Yes, in reading your book, Come as you are, I 601 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: was so struck by how many basic facts I was 602 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: learning for the first time or relearning for the first time. 603 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 2: And so while you think that those would be easy. 604 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: Things to reteach or correct, it's almost as if we're 605 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, the patriarchy and cultural scripts and 606 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: what consent means much more often than we're talking about 607 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: these literal facts. 608 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 3: Yes, literal actual just biological facts about the lack of 609 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 3: correlation between how your genitals are behaving and how you 610 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 3: personally feel. 611 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: Are there a few basic facts that I should have 612 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: you debunk for us right here while we have you like, 613 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: what are the most caught What are the things we 614 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:42,239 Speaker 1: need to know? 615 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 3: Can we start with virginity since we were talking about 616 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 3: American pie Whease virginity is not it's not a biological thing, 617 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 3: biological fact of any kind. It cannot be like, what 618 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: the heck? What the heck is virginity? 619 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: The idea of the cherry. 620 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 3: And in biolog turns the hymen. The hymen is a 621 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 3: fold of tissue. It is like all of our tissues. 622 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 3: If it gets damaged, it heals. Hymen can be stretched. 623 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 3: But there are people who have given birth who have 624 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 3: intact hymens. My husband laughingly calls it a freshness seal, 625 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 3: like just that whole thing, all of it derives from 626 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 3: several hundred years ago, medieval biologists medical practitioners looking at 627 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 3: a fold of skin sort of over the mouth of 628 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 3: a vagina and deciding because they live in a culture 629 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 3: where a woman's body is literally a man's property, and 630 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 3: her lack of having had a penis in her vagina 631 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 3: yet matters insofar as a man wants his property to 632 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,479 Speaker 3: be in good condition. He wants not to invest his 633 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 3: resources in raising someone else's offspring. And like you never 634 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 3: can fully get can control over a woman's sexuality, but like, 635 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 3: at least that fold of skin is some assurance that 636 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 3: that vagina is fresh, right with all biological nonsense, because 637 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 3: you can't tell based on the presence of absence of 638 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 3: a hymen whether not anybody has ever had anything put 639 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 3: into their vagina before. 640 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 2: Okay, so that's virginity. Yeah, what's another common one. 641 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 3: Blue balls, of course, would definitely go on the list 642 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 3: of like this. This is not a thing attached to it. 643 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 3: The idea of sex as a biological drive, like hunger 644 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 3: is a drive. If you don't have adequate energy intake, 645 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 3: you can literally die. First biological drive. If you have 646 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 3: inadequate balance of water and sodium, you can literally die. 647 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 3: Sleep is a drive. If you do not get adequate sleep, 648 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 3: you can literally die. Sex is not one of those. 649 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 3: Sex is an incentive motivation system. And no, I'm not 650 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 3: under a delusion that we're all gonna stop saying the 651 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 3: simple and easy sex drive and start saying sexual incentive 652 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 3: motivation system. But if we could all just get real 653 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 3: clear that we do not mean that sex is a 654 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 3: biological need without which anybody will die, that would be 655 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 3: super good. 656 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: Is there one sex myth that if you could just 657 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: do one thing and eradicate it? 658 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 3: Can I choose a cluster of myths around what I'm 659 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 3: going to colloquially call women's orgasm? Please, So the research 660 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 3: here's my gender caveat. Virtually all the research on women's 661 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 3: orgasms is done on cisgender women. So I see no 662 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,479 Speaker 3: reason why all of this doesn't apply to anyone who's 663 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 3: a woman, but know that the research is talking about 664 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 3: sisgender women. 665 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,479 Speaker 2: That's the caveat yep. 666 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 3: First of all, as I said, only about ten ish 667 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 3: percent of women who masturbate do so with any kind 668 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 3: of vaginal penetration. That's been shown in study after study 669 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 3: after study for the last fifty years. Only a quarter 670 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 3: to like maybe a third of women are reliably orgasmic 671 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 3: from vaginal penetration alone, or as it's called in the research, 672 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 3: unassisted intercourse, one of my favorite technical terms. The remaining 673 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 3: two thirds to three quarters are sometimes rarely or never 674 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 3: orgasmic from vaginal stimulation alone. And the only reason why 675 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 3: I still get asked like, how do I have an 676 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 3: orgasm during sex? Is the way people say it. They 677 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 3: mean during penal vaginal intercourse. How come I'm not having them? 678 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 3: The reason you're not having them is because approximately two 679 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 3: thirds to three quarters of people with vaginas, that's not 680 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 3: a very good way for them to get the kind 681 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 3: of stimulation they need to get to orgasm because the 682 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 3: vagina is pretty far away from the glitterists, which is 683 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 3: for most people, not all, but for most people, the 684 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 3: most efficient path to getting to orgasm and The only 685 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 3: reason people still care about this is because I think 686 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 3: of freakin' freckin' Freud, whose influence on psychotherapy will not die. 687 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 3: Saying that clteral orgasms are immature and vaginal orgasms are mature. 688 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 3: That is an extremely convenient line for the patriarchy and 689 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 3: the misogyny, and a world in which men would really 690 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 3: benefit from women being orgasmic, from the kind of behavior 691 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 3: by which heterosexual men are very reliably orgasmic. 692 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: It's so interesting, though, because, Okay, for people who haven't 693 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: studied fraud, these myths persist, Like why do they, I mean, 694 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: besides the patriarchy, why do they persist? 695 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 3: Sex is a big deal, and women's bodies in the 696 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 3: world of the gender binary have to be controlled because 697 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 3: a whole lot of the genetic destiny of our species 698 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 3: happens inside of uteruses, and so we have to control 699 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 3: the uteruses, which means we have to control the women, 700 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 3: which means not only making laws about it, but havingultural 701 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 3: narratives about right and wrong, about beautiful and ugly, about 702 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 3: disgusting and perfect that train us all to be good 703 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 3: from very young, to be good at being the right 704 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 3: kind of sexual person. 705 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: And what about the role of pop culture to perpetuate 706 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: or to teach us healthy sexual habits. 707 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, because pop culture is so powerful, because these narratives 708 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 3: form our framework for understanding how our own sexuality works. 709 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 3: And I say that as someone who even though I 710 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 3: have like all this education and all this experience, I 711 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 3: still find myself falling into the same self critical traps 712 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 3: of comparing my sexuality to other people's sexuality, or to 713 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 3: like the cultural narrative of how sexuality works. Like now, 714 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 3: as a perimount apausal forty something lady married to somebody, 715 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,399 Speaker 3: when my sexual desire isn't like when the spark isn't 716 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 3: still alive in my marriage, I think, oh no, there's 717 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 3: something terribly wrong. And like I wrote a whole book 718 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 3: about how oh no, nothing is terribly wrong, Like I 719 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 3: know exactly how to fix it, and I still my 720 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 3: first response is still to a panic that I'm doing 721 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,760 Speaker 3: it wrong, that I'm broken, that I'm an inadequate wife. 722 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 3: So I think it clearly is very powerful. It embeds 723 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 3: narratives in our head of how sex is supposed to work. 724 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 3: And only by having an enormously diverse range of stories, 725 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 3: only by having a whole lot of different narratives about 726 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 3: ways that you can be sexual and do sex? Right, 727 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,919 Speaker 3: do we get a liberating pop culture narrative? Is when 728 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 3: there's dozens of them? Does that make sense? 729 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely? 730 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 3: I like had a lot of feelings and then words happened, 731 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 3: and I don't know that any of them formed sentences. 732 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 2: No, that's amazing, But. 733 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 3: I really meant it. 734 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 2: Is there anything out there you think does it well. 735 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 3: Of mainstream pop culture? I would be really interested to 736 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 3: hear from listeners like, what have you seen that you 737 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 3: feel like does a good job of representing sexuality in 738 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 3: a way where it shows a world that you would 739 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 3: want your kids to grow up in or that you 740 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 3: wish you had grown up in. One of the episodes 741 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 3: in the podcast that I made with Pushkin was on 742 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 3: Ted Lasso. 743 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 4: Mm hmm. 744 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 3: They picked it because it's one of the few shows 745 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 3: that I watch, and I feel like that show did 746 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 3: a pretty darn good job of sexuality. I feel like 747 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 3: it was extremely silly in its relationships, but the sexual relationships, 748 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 3: such the little bit that they showed, were pretty great. Actually, 749 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 3: like the communication was on point. The equality of different 750 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 3: people to be able to initiate sex and say no 751 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 3: to sex was really good, but there just wasn't a 752 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 3: lot of sex in it. 753 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that's actually a perfect place to 754 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: end it with the call out to our listeners posed 755 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: by you. 756 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I can know, like when somebody asks me, 757 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 3: but what can I watch that's good, that I'll be 758 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 3: able to be like, here's a. 759 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: List Before I let you go, Could you say a 760 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: few words about the new book. 761 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 3: Oh sure, it's called Come Together. I was very proud 762 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,240 Speaker 3: when I thought of that title, because it is about 763 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 3: how couples sustain a sexual connection over the long term, 764 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 3: couples of all combinations and all structures, whether monogamous or not. 765 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 3: It comes from the fact that writing and promoting Come 766 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,240 Speaker 3: as you Are diminished my interest in sex to less 767 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 3: than zero. And when I got done with that project, 768 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 3: which you'd think writing and thinking and talking about sex 769 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 3: all the time might make it easier, turns out no, 770 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 3: I had zero interest for like months at a time. 771 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 3: So when that was over, I started looking at the research, 772 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,280 Speaker 3: of course, because that's what I do, on how couples 773 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 3: do sustain a strong sexual connection over the long term, 774 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 3: And what I learned changed my own sex life, and 775 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 3: I wrote a book about it to help other people 776 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 3: in a similar situation. 777 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 4: This Is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening. 778 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,839 Speaker 5: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 779 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 5: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 780 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 5: Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com or find 781 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 5: us on Instagram at in retropod. 782 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 783 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 784 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 785 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: which we may or may not delete. 786 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 5: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 787 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 5: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 788 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 5: Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen. 789 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media. 790 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: Lauren Hansen is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 791 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Jaron 792 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 1: Atia is our researcher and associate producer. 793 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 5: Our executive producer from the Media is Cindy Levy. Our 794 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 5: executive producer from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 795 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 4: Our artwork is from Pentagram. 796 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 5: Additional editing helps from Mary Do Sound correction and mastering 797 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 5: by Amanda Rose Smith. 798 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 4: We are your hosts, Susie Bannoncarum. 799 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 1: And Jessica Bennett. We are also executive producers. For even 800 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: more check out in retropod dot com. See you next week.