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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From house Supports

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about late night television,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of funny because Caroline and I don't

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Speaker 1: really watch late night television, at least not when it

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Speaker 1: comes on right. Yeah, I don't. I definitely don't have

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Speaker 1: cable or anything and watch late night TV. Never really have,

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Speaker 1: aside from things like Comedy Central shows, UM and really

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Speaker 1: any any late night hosts that I ever see. It's

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Speaker 1: just because somebody in the office sent me a funny

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Speaker 1: clip from YouTube. Yeah. I watch late night TV most

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Speaker 1: often if I'm traveling and stuck in a hotel. I

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Speaker 1: used to think David Letterman was really funny when I

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Speaker 1: was younger, But I think that was because it was

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Speaker 1: something that meant that if I was watching it, I

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Speaker 1: was up late and was watching an adult show. And

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Speaker 1: you probably didn't know all of the information that we

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Speaker 1: know now about his relationships with his female staffers, yes

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Speaker 1: all like two of them. Yes, I wasn't. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: an enlightened ten year old feminist at the time. UM.

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Speaker 1: And the way that I would watch TV when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid is so different from the way I

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Speaker 1: would watch TV now, just by virtue of technology. I

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Speaker 1: have a TV on the wall in my apartment, but

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Speaker 1: it's simply hooked up to a laptop. But this is

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Speaker 1: nonetheless relevant to stuff Mom never told you, because there

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Speaker 1: has been a lot of conversation surrounding women and late

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Speaker 1: night TV in the past couple of years, with all

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Speaker 1: of the changeovers happening in terms of Jay Leno and

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Speaker 1: David Letterman, and the fact that with show after show

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Speaker 1: changing hosts, not one time has a woman been selected.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that pushed us finally over the edge

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Speaker 1: you say, Okay, it's time to podcast about this was

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Speaker 1: not too long ago when the announcement was made that

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Speaker 1: the Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson, which I always wondered,

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Speaker 1: how did Craig Ferguson g at that role just from

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Speaker 1: Drew Carey. He was just that hilarious and Drew carry

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Speaker 1: That's right, he was, and Drew Carey he was the boss. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I totally forgot. I was just like, Oh, he's some guy.

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Speaker 1: I know his face. I don't know where I know

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Speaker 1: his face from. It was Drew Carey. And they announced

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Speaker 1: that Craig Ferguson would be stepping down and he would

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Speaker 1: be replaced drum roll and his drum roll had been

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Speaker 1: going on for months and people thinking well, maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: this will be the chance for a woman to get

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Speaker 1: a seat behind the desk. No, No, he's being replaced

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Speaker 1: by British comedian James Cordon, to which my Twitter feed

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Speaker 1: collectively went ah, yeah. And you know what, Like I

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Speaker 1: have ever, I've never really paid attention to late night

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Speaker 1: in general late night TV shows, But I've also never

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Speaker 1: found it important enough to even think about in terms

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Speaker 1: of the host because I'm always like, well, whatever, they're

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Speaker 1: just gonna put another white guy. Not that I ever,

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Speaker 1: like specifically had that concrete thought, but my whole attitude

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Speaker 1: about it is just like, well, I mean, whatever, why

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Speaker 1: does it matter. They're just gonna slide another like, middle

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Speaker 1: aged white dude into that flot. But because that is

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Speaker 1: my thinking process, it obviously is worth us talking about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because while it might not seem relevant to our day

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Speaker 1: to day who hosts late night TV, it's quite relevant

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Speaker 1: in terms of the comedy pipeline. Women in late night

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Speaker 1: are a rarity, and that if you are a woman

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Speaker 1: in the industry is indicative of this broader gender gap,

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Speaker 1: and it's sort of symbolic of how women tend to

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Speaker 1: have to work super duper hard if they want to

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Speaker 1: make a profession out of being funny. Well, to give

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Speaker 1: you an idea of where we were and where we

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Speaker 1: are today, we have pulled together a timeline from PBS,

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Speaker 1: Washington Post, and Flavor Wire that stretches all the way

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Speaker 1: back to September nineteen fifty four when NBC debuts Tonight

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Speaker 1: starring Steve Allen and it makes history as the first

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Speaker 1: version of the Tonight Show. And I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 1: When I first read that, my first thought was, huh,

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Speaker 1: Tonight starring Steve Correll. Wait, that's not right. That would

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Speaker 1: be a funny show. Uh. Yes. So. Steve Allen, though,

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Speaker 1: is largely responsible for developing the late night TV format,

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Speaker 1: which is essentially a mix of a talk show and

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Speaker 1: a variety program. You tend to have interviews with celebrities

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Speaker 1: or notable people who need you to promote new films,

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Speaker 1: al bums, books, etcetera, along with whacky skits and stunts.

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Speaker 1: I wonder when they started. I'm sure someone can tell

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Speaker 1: me this, but I wonder when they started introducing like

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Speaker 1: wild animals onto those shows, because I feel like every

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Speaker 1: talk or late night host has wild animals on at

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Speaker 1: some point. Wasn't it really with what's his name, Jack Hannah,

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Speaker 1: who would wear his you know, his khakis and his

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Speaker 1: snake and would come on with his snake maybe to

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Speaker 1: Johnny Carson. Maybe I feel like it's probably Carson. It

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Speaker 1: probably is, and we will definitely get to him in

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Speaker 1: just a second. But in ninety seven Jack part took

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Speaker 1: over Tonight and he actually was not super jazzed about

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Speaker 1: the format of the show. Um, he cried censorship in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty after he made a joke about a water

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Speaker 1: closet that was edited from his opening monologue, and he

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Speaker 1: ended up storming off and like disappearing for a month. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of incredible. Yeah, he was like to

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Speaker 1: screw you guys. And his late night reign came to

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Speaker 1: an end in October nineteen sixty two when Ed McMahon said,

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Speaker 1: he's Johnny. That's right, that's not just from the Shining

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Speaker 1: for those of you who don't know, that's actually from

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Speaker 1: the Tonight Show starring Johnny Carson. Uh. He ended up

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Speaker 1: earning two times the ratings that Jack Parr did. Um,

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Speaker 1: and he was sort of known for being the gatekeeper

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Speaker 1: for comedians at the time. He invited people on and

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Speaker 1: it was what Rick Newman, the founder of the comedy

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Speaker 1: club catch Arizing Star, referred to as the holy grail

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Speaker 1: of what a stand up comedian could achieve. It was

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Speaker 1: career changing basically from comedian to make it onto uh

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Speaker 1: Johnny Carson's show. Yeah. His audience was massive. He had

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Speaker 1: fifteen million viewers a night and he was the show.

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Speaker 1: And because it was so such an important show at

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Speaker 1: the time, it was also instrumental in the haaunching some

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Speaker 1: female comedians careers, such as Betty White who did appear

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Speaker 1: in some skits, but more significantly Joan Rivers. Yeah, man

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Speaker 1: she um. She guest hosted ninety three times in the

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Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, and she eventually became the show's permanent

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Speaker 1: guest host from three to until they had a big

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Speaker 1: falling out. Yeah. And one thing that's incredible about Johnny

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Speaker 1: Carson in the eighties that demonstrates just how much of

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Speaker 1: a powerful figure he had become in TV. He was

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Speaker 1: able to finagle his contract to where he was only

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Speaker 1: hosting I think three shows max per week, so he

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Speaker 1: was barely working but making more money than ever before.

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Speaker 1: And in addition to Joan Rivers and Betty White, there

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Speaker 1: were other female comedians featured on the show, such as

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Speaker 1: Moms maybe Phili Stiller, who've talked about before, and Mira

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Speaker 1: Lane May who we mentioned in our Women in Comedy

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Speaker 1: podcast a while back, and Tody Fields. So there were

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Speaker 1: ladies in the sketches, there were ladies in the seat,

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Speaker 1: you know, sometimes entertaining Johnny. But but that being said,

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, Johnny Carson told Rolling Stone that

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Speaker 1: he didn't like quote the new breed of female stand up.

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Speaker 1: And that's a big deal because, like I just said,

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Speaker 1: he was considered the gatekeeper, like the gateway drug to

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Speaker 1: being an amazing comedian and a lane comedian. Elaine Boosler

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Speaker 1: talked about the Tonight Show with him, and she said, look,

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Speaker 1: it was all there was in the nineteen seventies for

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Speaker 1: a young comedian. There was simply no other gate into

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Speaker 1: actual show business, fame, making a living, or being recognized.

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Speaker 1: He thought we were aggressive, funny and aggressive. What a combo?

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Speaker 1: Uh Well, moving on to February two, NBC is like, oh, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're making so much cache from Johnny Carson, why don't

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Speaker 1: we open up a twelve thirty AM slot and give

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Speaker 1: it to this old guy Letterman. That's when Late Night

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Speaker 1: with David Letterman launches, and it's then assumed that whenever

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Speaker 1: Carson finally calls it a day, that Letterman would take

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Speaker 1: his seat right because he's right after him. And they

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Speaker 1: actually had a really good rapport, and Letterman was Carson's

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Speaker 1: picked to be his successor. It turned out not to

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Speaker 1: matter at all. Spoiler alert spoiler I know I'm getting

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Speaker 1: ahead of myself. It's so exciting. Um. And then in

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Speaker 1: April nine seven, we have Joan Rivers again. We said

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Speaker 1: we'd get back to her. Fox wooed her away from

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Speaker 1: Johnny Carson with a fifteen million dollar contract four The

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Speaker 1: Late Show starring Joan Rivers. Carson was so p oed

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Speaker 1: that she basically like betrayed him in his eyes, that

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Speaker 1: he never talked to her again. And not only did

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Speaker 1: he never talk to her again, but he had so

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Speaker 1: much like comedian muscle in that arena that he basically said, look,

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Speaker 1: if you book your person on the Joan Rivers show,

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Speaker 1: you can't come onto the Johnny Carson Show. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: if you are, you know, a publicist for a celebrity,

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Speaker 1: obviously you're not going to uh endanger your relationship with

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Speaker 1: Johnny Carson. So the show quickly tanks in October folds,

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Speaker 1: but not before a guy named our Cineo Hall steps

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Speaker 1: in a little bit to guest host for Joan Rivers.

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Speaker 1: And then in January we have a little bit of

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Speaker 1: diversity happening in late night when our Cineo Hall gets

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Speaker 1: his own show. It lasts for five years, and Bill

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Speaker 1: Clinton at one point goes on plays the saxophone and

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Speaker 1: everyone's like, what, this is crazy? And that was kind

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Speaker 1: of though more of a modern sense, if you can

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Speaker 1: call an eighteen eight nine modern at this point of

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Speaker 1: a viral moment in late night, because you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's still such an iconic point. But

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Speaker 1: wasn't that also and correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't

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Speaker 1: this also like the first time that a politician really

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Speaker 1: went on a late night show and let loose. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't just like vote for me because I

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Speaker 1: do these things with my policy and whatnot exactly going

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Speaker 1: on and being ridiculous and playing the saxophone, and people

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Speaker 1: totally responded to it. And so now fast forward to

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Speaker 1: today and Obama, for instance, during is elections and also

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Speaker 1: as he's been in office and has been pushing initiatives through,

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Speaker 1: has used late night television as a way to speak

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Speaker 1: directly to the people and show folks that he's just bury.

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Speaker 1: He's just buried. You know, he's a good guy and

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Speaker 1: wears a suit. Whell yes he does. Um so in

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Speaker 1: the early nineties, so things start to get a little wonky.

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Speaker 1: Uh more, people are jumping in the fray. In May,

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Speaker 1: Jay Leno takes over for Johnny Carson. No, yes, oh

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Speaker 1: my god. I already kind of spoiled that because Letterman

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Speaker 1: was Carson's choice. So everybody is pretty stunned when Leno

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Speaker 1: took the chair. And then from two to side. Note

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Speaker 1: there was another woman jumping in very briefly to the

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Speaker 1: late night show MS WHOOPI Goldberg. I don't think I

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Speaker 1: did not know this. Yeah, I hadn't heard of it either.

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Speaker 1: Granted it did not run very long, but but Whoopy

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Speaker 1: did get a show, and I figured, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is an episode all about women in late night and

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Speaker 1: there are so few examples. I was happy to just

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Speaker 1: find another besides Joan Rivers and Chelsea Handler coming up,

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Speaker 1: so Whoopie folds. And around that same time, we have

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Speaker 1: Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher starting up on Comedy Central.

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Speaker 1: As you see what the pattern that is happening here?

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Speaker 1: Is it? More and more networks are paying attention and

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Speaker 1: starting to carve out their own spaces in late night.

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Speaker 1: And the same year Bill margets a show on Comedy Central,

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Speaker 1: CBS is all like, oh, hey, we want a piece

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Speaker 1: of this late night pie. Hey, David Letterman, are you

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Speaker 1: a little bit steamed about Jay Leno getting the job

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Speaker 1: that you should have gotten? Well, hey, come on over,

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Speaker 1: we have an eleven thirty spot straight up against Leno.

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Speaker 1: Let's make this late night war happen. And just a

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Speaker 1: month later, NBC premieres Late Night with Conan O'Brien, which

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Speaker 1: is also the same year that Fox failed yet again

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Speaker 1: by putting Chevy Chase on the air. Fox, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? Fox? I'll just keep playing The Simpsons. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And then in the late night programming starts to extend

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Speaker 1: into the late late night, so you have CBS kick

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Speaker 1: off the Late Late Show with Tom Snyder, old Tom Snyder,

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Speaker 1: not of Snyder's pretzels. Although when I hear Tom Snyder,

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Speaker 1: that's what I think of pretzels, good old saltic. It

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Speaker 1: makes me thirsty for some water. Okay, well, rolls Aroun

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Speaker 1: and we get another woman. Oh what's happening? What she doing?

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Speaker 1: She is not in the show, no, but importantly she's

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Speaker 1: part of creating a show which you might know and love.

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Speaker 1: It's called The Daily Show. Yeah, this is Liz Winstead,

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Speaker 1: who is a liberal firebrand and a comedian whose Twitter

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Speaker 1: is very active if you want to follow her. She

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Speaker 1: created The Daily Show with Craig Kilborn at the time,

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Speaker 1: who came over oddly enough from Sports Center on ESPN.

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Speaker 1: I still remember watching him with my brother when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid and being like, he's funny. So then

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Speaker 1: we see the evolution of that show and the Late

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Speaker 1: Late Show because Craig Kilborn uh then went on to

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Speaker 1: the Late Late Show on CBS in n and then

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Speaker 1: when he left in two thousand five, he passed that

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Speaker 1: show to Craig Ferguson. We have come full circle, we

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Speaker 1: can in the show. Just kidding, There's so much more

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Speaker 1: to talk about, not to mention that John Stewart took

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Speaker 1: over the Daily Show. That's right, And so once we

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Speaker 1: get into the two thousand's, all right, let's move to

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Speaker 1: say two thousand six. What's happening at this point? Is

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Speaker 1: he still have Bill Maher doing his thing in HBO.

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Speaker 1: We've got John Stewart rocking it. We've got the Coldbart

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Speaker 1: Poor going on, we have Leno and Letterman still duking

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Speaker 1: it out, and recently the premiere of Jimmy Kimmel Live,

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Speaker 1: so late night and Late Late Night, completely saturated, totally

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Speaker 1: totally all guys and totally all white guys, if I'm

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Speaker 1: not mistaken. But in two thousand seven we get Chelsea Handler.

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Speaker 1: She's she starts Chelsea Lately. So that makes the third

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Speaker 1: woman to get her own talk show from nineteen fifty

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Speaker 1: four to two thousand seven. All right, yeah, well, percentage wise,

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Speaker 1: we're not doing so well. No, no, But then it

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Speaker 1: a little bit of diversity kicks off too in terms

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Speaker 1: of male hosts. In two thousand nine we have TVs

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Speaker 1: is ill Fated Lopez Tonight starring George Lopez, and then

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Speaker 1: in two thousand twelve Bravos Andy Cohen makes TV history

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Speaker 1: becoming the first openly gay late night host with Watch

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Speaker 1: What Happens Live, and then from their things start to

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Speaker 1: get really wacky because Leno and Letterman are realizing that

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Speaker 1: their networks want them perhaps to leave at some point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that you have the whole Leno Conan debacle in

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Speaker 1: Leno announced his retirement for the second time. Because the

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Speaker 1: whole thing, if you were under a rock, was that

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Speaker 1: Leno was gonna leave. Conan was going to take over,

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Speaker 1: and he did for like a hot second, and then

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Speaker 1: when I was like, oh no, wait, in the interim,

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Speaker 1: Leno got a really terrible show at the ten o'clock

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Speaker 1: slot every night. Conan was sent away. He was really mad.

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Speaker 1: Everybody was on team Coco. Now Kinnan has his own

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Speaker 1: show on TV. Ask it for him, very funny, um

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Speaker 1: and Leno then exited again, yeah, to which Jimmy Fallon

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Speaker 1: takes over. And as all of this is happening, this

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Speaker 1: is when these big conversations up. Okay, well, is the

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Speaker 1: network going to tap a woman? We have so many

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Speaker 1: emerging women. Not not just like, oh, we've got some

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Speaker 1: really funny stand up ladies as we have for forever. No,

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Speaker 1: this is when we already have a list comedic women

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Speaker 1: here are not necessarily waiting in the wings, but I

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Speaker 1: think people we're waiting with bated breath to see if oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, you could put Tina fe in there, you

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Speaker 1: can put I mean polar in there. Yeah, you could.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, just a show with the two of them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would just I would just watch them talk. Would

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Speaker 1: you watch that late night show? Yes, well, but I'd

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Speaker 1: watch it the next day. Yeah, the same here, But

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Speaker 1: that's that's the who day with viewership, which we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about a minute too. Like I mean, as far as

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Speaker 1: popularity of the show, so many people are just watching

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Speaker 1: it either online or on their DVR the next day

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, And obviously that hasn't happened again and

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Speaker 1: again and again as these the slate of shows has

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Speaker 1: sort of gone through a recent upheaval in terms of

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Speaker 1: the host baton being passed to where where we're sitting

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Speaker 1: right now. We talked about the Late Late Show with

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Speaker 1: Craig Ferguson being handed over to James Cordon. We have

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Speaker 1: John Oliver getting his own show last week tonight, which

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Speaker 1: I personally watched and love over on HBO. You have

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Kimmel, Jimmy fallon, Seth Myers, John Stewart, Colbert who

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Speaker 1: will be taking over for Letterman when he retires, and

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Speaker 1: even this guy named Pete Holmes who comes on after

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Speaker 1: yet another guy, Conan. So you can understand then why

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Speaker 1: when that Lately Show announcement was made. Even though who

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Speaker 1: watches the Late Nate Lately Show, I don't know, it

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Speaker 1: was still a frustrating thing for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: not just women in comedy, but also TV critics. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you go back and read any of

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Speaker 1: these articles that Kristen and I were looking at, I

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Speaker 1: mean the tone of all of them is just like, hey,

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Speaker 1: are we maybe gonna get like a black guy or

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Speaker 1: or a woman in there, maybe a woman of color,

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Speaker 1: even like there's a Usia Tyler, like she's funny. No,

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Speaker 1: you want to go back in time and be like, no,

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Speaker 1: it's not gonna happen yet. And it's also not just

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Speaker 1: women writing these articles. Yeah, oh no, yeah, everybody out

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Speaker 1: there who their job is to examine television. And this

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Speaker 1: is also nothing against the comedy stylings of Stephen Colbert,

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Speaker 1: John Stewart, John Oliver, etcetera, etcetera. All these guys, these

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Speaker 1: younger guys too are super funny. Absolutely, Yeah, they're hilarious.

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Speaker 1: It's just a broader question of but why why is

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Speaker 1: it so taboo for these networks to even broach the

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Speaker 1: idea of a woman host Because the big argument that

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Speaker 1: doesn't fly at all is well, there aren't any suitable replacements.

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Speaker 1: It would we, I mean, it would we possibly put

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Speaker 1: in there? Yeah, I can't think of anyone besides maybe

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Speaker 1: like Tina Fair, Amy Poehler, maybe like Rhetta or Chelsea Handler,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I mentioned Iishia Tyler, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe like Amy Schumer, like Tig Nataro, whoever, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jane Lynch, Amy Sedera, Sarah silverman U. Tina Fey was

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Speaker 1: actually asked about this, I think, on the Steth Meyers Show,

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Speaker 1: and she made a joke about how the problem for

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Speaker 1: a woman late night hosts is that obviously you're gonna

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Speaker 1: probably age with the show, uh, and at some point,

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Speaker 1: you know, what do you wear? Because you're gonna want

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Speaker 1: to like be comfortable and you want to cover your arms,

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Speaker 1: and so you'll you need a blazer And so she

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Speaker 1: said that it'll be Ellen degenerous because Ellen already wears blazers.

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Speaker 1: Because that's another thing too that a lot of these

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Speaker 1: articles don't note is that when it comes to daytime shows,

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Speaker 1: women all over the place that is funny, making all

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Speaker 1: sorts of jokes and doing all kinds of interviews and skits.

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Speaker 1: TV scheduling is so gender divided. That's interesting, Yeah, But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the late night not so much. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And NPR TV critic Eric Deggen's weighed in on this

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Speaker 1: and said, quote, this is a problem. It's comedy led

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Speaker 1: by a narrow cultural point of view which tells everyone

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Speaker 1: the way white male see the world is what matters most. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I mean that's you can extrapolate that to a

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Speaker 1: ton of other stuff we've talked about, whether it's stem,

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Speaker 1: whether it's anything about getting different people's perspectives involved in

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Speaker 1: things often leads to better outcomes, and in this case,

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Speaker 1: maybe funnier outcomes. Well, maybe the networks aren't so concerned

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Speaker 1: about funny but rather money about that Because another argument

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Speaker 1: is that it's not so much an issue of you know,

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Speaker 1: sure would be great to have a woman behind the desk,

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Speaker 1: but think about your target audience. And The New York

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Speaker 1: Times is reported on how the late night audience tended

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Speaker 1: a note the past tense tended to be sort of

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Speaker 1: the Taco Bell demographic. It's it's younger guys, like eighteen

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Speaker 1: to thirty four. You're all guys used to be the

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Speaker 1: core of that after eleven PM audience, but that's not

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Speaker 1: so much the case anymore because that audience has been diverted,

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Speaker 1: particularly by programming like Adults Swim and also Comedy Central

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Speaker 1: with all of their late night shows as well. And

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Speaker 1: another big topic, especially for talking about majority men versus

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Speaker 1: minority women, is the writer's room. And we are going

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Speaker 1: to talk all about that when we get right back

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Speaker 1: from a quick break. So, when it comes to late

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Speaker 1: night TV, obviously the host is the most visible and

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Speaker 1: the entire show is centered around that host, But all

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Speaker 1: of those hilarious jokes and lists and one liners that

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Speaker 1: a host is reading off the teleprompter is the product

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Speaker 1: of a writer's room. Yeah, yeah, you got a lot

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Speaker 1: of funny people together write some funny stuff. Just picture

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Speaker 1: thirty rock. Yeah, and LUTs. I don't know why I

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Speaker 1: was picture LUTs when I think of that, but anyway,

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Speaker 1: and Lutts now writes, I believe for Jimmy Kimmel, either

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Kimmel or Seth Miners. His name is actually Lutts. Yeah, perfect, Um,

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Speaker 1: this is all a thirty rock joke. By the way,

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Speaker 1: people don't know. Oh yeah, sorry, but yeah. So the

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Speaker 1: whole issue of the gender divide in writer's rooms really

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Speaker 1: kind of entered the news and our social consciousness in

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Speaker 1: two thousand nine when there was a big scandal with

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Speaker 1: Letterman that blew up. So for a long time, people

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Speaker 1: who worked on the Letterman Show were aware that David

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Speaker 1: Letterman tended to have affairs with female staffers and that

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Speaker 1: those female staffords would sometimes get more favorable treatment, and

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Speaker 1: all of that news became public in two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: and there was this whole scandal. And this was also

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Speaker 1: around the time too that Jezebel, when Arin Carmen was

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Speaker 1: still writing for them, broke this huge piece about the

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Speaker 1: lack of women on staff at the Daily Show and

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Speaker 1: some allegations of even the women being who were working

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Speaker 1: there being treated in a discriminatory type of way. So

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Speaker 1: there was just this whole whole conversation happening, and nel

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Speaker 1: Scovell wrote about her experience as a rare female late

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Speaker 1: night writer in Vanity Fair timed with the of news

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Speaker 1: about Letterman, because, as she described she she finally felt

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Speaker 1: like it was time to talk about it. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: she was like, look, I don't want to sue anybody.

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Speaker 1: I don't want get anybody in trouble. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to cause a big stink or spread gossip. But she's like,

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Speaker 1: there are people talking about this thing and these issues

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Speaker 1: who don't even know what they're talking about. Well, and

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Speaker 1: also that was the time as the news was breaking

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Speaker 1: for women and someone of of her clout to be

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Speaker 1: able to finally put a spotlight on it and say, yes,

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Speaker 1: there is a problem. Now that we're all talking about it,

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Speaker 1: now that we're all aware of it, this is what's

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Speaker 1: going on right. Um. So, at the time that this

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Speaker 1: is going on, there were zero female writers on Letterman,

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Speaker 1: Leno and Conan, and in twenty seven years Late Night

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Speaker 1: and The Late Show had hired only seven female writers

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Speaker 1: who had spent a combined seventeen years on stuff. And

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Speaker 1: like the male staffers, it was something like four hundred years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because for a lot of at least I'm a little

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Speaker 1: more familiar with Letterman. A lot of those writers, the

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Speaker 1: male writers worked there for years and years and years

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Speaker 1: and years. I mean they kind of grew up with

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Speaker 1: Dave and so as this was happening. Of course, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of go to excuses for why most

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Speaker 1: late night shows have little, if any female writers, the

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Speaker 1: number one being well, women don't submit packets because and

426
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: that essentially is a packet of jokes that if you

427
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: want to write for late night, if they're hiring, then

428
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: you think of all these jokes and all these different

429
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: kinds of jokes that would fit the show, fit the host,

430
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: and you submit what is called a packet. And so

431
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: these late night executives gone the defense and say, well,

432
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: women just aren't applying for the jobs. Boo. But but

433
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: that's that's partially true. But it can be challenging to

434
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: apply for a job that you don't know is available, Caroline, right,

435
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: because you know, just a lot of lot of jobs,

436
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: not just comedy. A lot of times you might hear

437
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: about a job from a friend, but if all of

438
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: those friends are dude friends, they're going to pass the

439
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: word on to other dude friends. And the comedy world

440
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: can be quite insular, and obviously on the whole tends

441
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: to you know, swing more male, and so if you

442
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: have a writer's room full of guys and their comics.

443
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: They're probably friends with a lot of guys who are comics,

444
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: and that's and so you just end up getting more

445
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: guys even knowing that positions are coming open, right, And

446
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 1: Scopelle pointed out to that, Okay, well, so there are

447
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: these requirements for when you submit your packet or whatever,

448
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: but again, not everybody is familiar with them outside of

449
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 1: this little insulated circle of comedians. And so she was

450
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: just saying, like, hey, guys, why don't you just post

451
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: these requirements online where everyone who would potentially want a

452
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: job and is you know, funny, could actually see them

453
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: and access them. Yeah, but even when that happens, it

454
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: is true that women on the whole submit fewer packets,

455
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: or at least we should say that of all of

456
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,719
Speaker 1: the packets submitted, fewer are from women. At a two

457
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: thousand eleven panel reported on in Splitsider that was focused

458
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: around women in Late Night, the co head writer for

459
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: Jimmy Kimmel, Molly McNerney, said that out of around two

460
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: hundred submissions that she would get at a time, only

461
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: around thirty would be from women. Yeah, and speaking of thirty,

462
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: to give you a few more numbers. There was a

463
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: twelve study by the Center for the Study of Women

464
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: and Television and Film that looked at the number of

465
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: women on staff at these shows, and they found that

466
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: during the season women made up of these staffs. In

467
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: twenty twelve that had jumped to a whole big old

468
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: number of thirty of the writer's staff. So a little

469
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: bit of progress, but not monumental. And some people listening

470
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: might be thinking, but again, why does this matter. I mean,

471
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: in this case, you're not even the host, You're just

472
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: a writer. But these just writers are writers who will

473
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: go on to be writing sitcoms, might be going on

474
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: to Hollywood to write comedies, might be going on to

475
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,719
Speaker 1: starring comedies. I mean, this is really I mean, if

476
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: you can break into late night, it can open up

477
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: huge opportunities to be one of, you know, to help

478
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: shape the you know, broader landscape of comedy and pop culture. Well,

479
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: and and something that a lot of women writers who

480
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: have been interviewed, a lot of the challenges that they

481
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: talk about are just the sort of overarching dominant male

482
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: culture that they come up against in these rooms. The

483
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: fact that you do kind of have to shout to

484
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: be heard. You do have to be more aggressive. As

485
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: Elaine Boosler put it back in the day, Um, there's

486
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: the whole thing about having jokes poached. And you know that,

487
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: I feel like this is a thing that women talk

488
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: about and business and wherever, and many feels about, Oh

489
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: I have this great idea, I'm gonna say it, and

490
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: nobody is gonna respond or or like it or show

491
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: that they even heard me. And then ten minutes later

492
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: somebody's like, oh, hey, what if we did such and

493
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: such a It's a great idea, and it's the same idea,

494
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: it's just it was finally heard from a different mouth. Um. Well,

495
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: and and another challenge too of being a woman writing

496
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 1: for late night is that you're writing jokes specifically for hosts,

497
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: and almost ten out of ten times at this point

498
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: you're gonna be writing jokes specifically for male hosts. And

499
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: not to say that women cannot write jokes for men,

500
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: because there are women doing that, but there are points

501
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: of reference that some women late night writers will talk

502
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: about where their experience that they can draw on personally

503
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: is just not as male centric obviously. Yeah, And then

504
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: well then you have the issue too of the fact

505
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: that you have to. If you are writing for a

506
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: male host and you need to write things for his perspective,

507
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: you kind have to sacrifice your perspective or your female

508
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: voice or any like sex in the city jokes you

509
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: have tucked up in your brain or whatever. And so

510
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: in that regard, you know, some women might just opt

511
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: to write for other shows, sitcoms, et cetera. Although, based

512
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: on what Nell Scobell was writing about in that Vanity

513
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: Fair piece, once you're finally getting down to writing and comedy,

514
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: it's almost as though she she feels like gender should

515
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: just fly out the window because there's this thing, um

516
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: where one one thing she noticed in writer's rooms, like

517
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: this hesitation of women even being in the room, is

518
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: this idea that well, then you're gonna have to tone

519
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: it down. Then you can't make inappropriate jokes that frankly,

520
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: Caroline and I can't make right now on the podcast

521
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: to give you examples, to which Scobel says, no, you

522
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: don't have to be less body if a woman is

523
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: in the room, you can be equally funny. You know,

524
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: you can all be equally gross and funny if we

525
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: want to be. Yeah, she was saying, we're your co worker,

526
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: and we're your comedy writing coworker at that. We're not

527
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: your wife, we're not your mother, we're not your daughter.

528
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: We're on a level playing field, Like, don't feel like

529
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: you can't cut loose just because of vaginas in the room. So,

530
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: speaking of Scobell, who also in addition to Liz Winstead,

531
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: has a very active and funny Twitter account if you

532
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: want to follow her. Uh, she put her words into

533
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: action when it came to the recent launch of John

534
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: Oliver's late night show last week Tonight over at hbo UM.

535
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: John Oliver actually talked about in an interview how when

536
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: they were looking for writers, and Scobell specifically did something

537
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: a little unconventional. She sought out people online and magazines

538
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: anywhere she thought funny women would be writing and reached

539
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: out to them directly. Yeah, basically reached out to them

540
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: directly and said, come come work in late night, add

541
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: your voices to the cacophony. Yeah you are needed. Yeah,

542
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: and I don't. I think they have two writers, two

543
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: female writers, which that's not massive, but it's still a presence.

544
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: And I want to say that there showrunner is also

545
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: a woman, and I have it on good authority that

546
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: John Oliver is a fantastic boss to work for as

547
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: a lady comedian, and same thing too with John Stewart,

548
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: which made me very happy. That makes me happy too.

549
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: I'm glad to know that my random based on nothing

550
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: assumptions about them are are accurate. Yeah. When it comes

551
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: though to a more historic writer's room in late night

552
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: seth Myers has an astonishing three women writing for him,

553
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: including Amber Ruffin, who was the first black female writer

554
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: in late night history. That's great. I mean, didn't he

555
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: do like a blind submission thing where he was just like,

556
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: give me the jokes and he ended up getting a

557
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: diverse writing group because of that. It might have been him.

558
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: I know that John Oliver also did a blind submission,

559
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: and I think for the first round with packets, it

560
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: is becoming far more common, if not the thing to

561
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: do where you have blind readings of the jokes so

562
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: that you don't go see a name like, oh, these

563
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: jokes are from a girl named Kristen, throw them away.

564
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: They're going to be about tampons um. But speaking of jokes,

565
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: So like everything that Chris and I have been talking

566
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 1: about right now, seems like things are on the up swing.

567
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: It seems like the younger hosts who have the younger

568
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: demographics watching them, maybe it's more hopeful. Maybe maybe more

569
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: women will will stop up to that. And that includes

570
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: not only behind the scenes in the writer's room, but

571
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: also in terms of actual comedians, stand up comedians who

572
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: get invited on to perform. It's actually still pretty grim. Yeah,

573
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: there aren't that many women who go on late night

574
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: shows to do end up, whether that's stand up actually

575
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: on the show that you would see on TV or

576
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: doing stand up to warm up the audience. In two

577
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: thousand twelve, for instance, Uh, there were forty nine stand

578
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: up performances on The Late Late Show, The Tonight Show,

579
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: Jimmy Kimmel, Live, Conan, and The Late Show. And of

580
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: those forty nine performances, there were thirty eight white men,

581
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: nine men of color, and two women. Go gals. Yeah,

582
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: but then last year, in a partner Nanturla became the

583
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: first Indian woman to perform stand up on US late

584
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: night TV on Conan and Kristen and I can say

585
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: that we knew her when we we we saw our

586
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: performance stand up at a conference we went to. Yeah

587
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: we laughed at her jokes. Yeah, we did we don't, like,

588
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: we're not friends, but we could be. She wants to be,

589
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: and she's super funny. Yet again, follow her Twitter to

590
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: follow all these people's twitters. But the question again is

591
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: does it really matter because we're talking about younger host

592
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: is a new generation of late night we have. You know,

593
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: it seems like there's a sea change going on. But

594
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: you and I don't watch late night when it comes

595
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: on late night. I think a lot of people watching

596
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: might consume late night television most often in the form

597
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: of viral videos. Yeah, that's one big way that Kimmel

598
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: in particular and Fallon have really found their niche is

599
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: by producing these segments that go bananas on Twitter and YouTube. Yeah,

600
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: they're like skits and things like that with guests that

601
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: are easily breakdownable and digestible. Like I had a friend

602
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: grabby and be like, you have to watch this, it's

603
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: so funny on Fallon and I mean, it was funny, um,

604
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean I want to sit down and

605
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,439
Speaker 1: watch the entire show. I'm just gonna watch this video.

606
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,919
Speaker 1: You something exactly, And viewership has been declining for Late

607
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: Night steadily for years now. This was reported on in

608
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,959
Speaker 1: Vanity fair, and they noted that, as we mentioned earlier

609
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 1: in the show, when Carson was on, he was attracting

610
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: fifteen million viewers a night, and then seven Leno in

611
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: the same time slot was getting only six million viewers,

612
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 1: And now Fallon has about one point eight million viewers

613
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: a night, which is significant because Jimmy Fallon on Twitter

614
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: has eleven million followers. Yeah. I mean you also have

615
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: to think too that, like, well, what else did people

616
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: have to watch when Johnny Carson was on? Yeah, that's true,

617
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: exactly did not have the YouTube's they did not well, So,

618
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: I mean the whole argument behind this, though, is that

619
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: these declining ratings don't necessarily matter as much because everybody's

620
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: watching everything on the internet. Like Conan. Somebody was talking

621
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: to Conan about how his ratings once he went to TBS,

622
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: We're basically cut in half after two weeks, and he's like,

623
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: I'm fine, I'm happy here, Like things are going great.

624
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: Everybody's watching me on their DVR the next day. I'm

625
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 1: fine with it. Yeah, And I mean even the basic

626
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: business model of late night television is downsizing and digitizing,

627
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: because this used to be a one million dollar per

628
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: week operation for a top tier show. But that kind

629
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: of money is crazy to spend these days. Mean, obviously

630
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 1: there's still a lot of cash it goes into production

631
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: for the big shows, but a lot of this is

632
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: still scaling down because the audiences are scaling down and

633
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: also getting older. They're getting older, that Taco Bell demographic. Yeah,

634
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: they're not watching, They're they're probably not watching late night television. Yeah.

635
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: Conan reels in the youngest median audience at thirty two,

636
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: whereas Letterman and Leno's median viewers were aged fifty six. Yeah,

637
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: And I wonder if that has gone down at all

638
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: with say, Jimmy Fallon taking on over for Leno, and

639
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: maybe if it will go down out if you know,

640
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: Colbert brings his younger audience over when he moves to Letterman.

641
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: But fifties six YAWSA, that's that's that's that's older. That

642
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: is older. A just But Amanda hess is like, I

643
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: don't care, I don't care. Let them have it, Let

644
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: them eat cake, Let them eat white old cake if

645
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: they want to. She said that late night talk shows

646
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: are celebrity self promotion vehicles, packaged with broad, sanitized humor

647
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: that is highly topical but rarely actually relevant. She basically

648
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: talks about how the humor is so broad that it's like, okay,

649
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: kind of funny, but it's really like not striking anyone's

650
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: funny bone to any sort of extreme, yeah, because they

651
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: have to keep it super sanitized. And she was writing

652
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: about this over at Slate and went on to talk

653
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: about how if you want, you know women in comedy,

654
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: don't put him behind the desk on late night and

655
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: cramp their style. Instead, we have things like Inside am Schumer,

656
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: Parks and Wreck and broad City that are making ladies laugh,

657
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: the ladies making ladies laugh. Now, Parks and Wreck is

658
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: still pretty tame because it's on Network, But for Inside

659
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: Emi Schumer on Comedy Central and broad City on FX,

660
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: I mean they get downright body. Yeah, I mean Amanda

661
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: has has a point like who cares let him have it?

662
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: It's stupid, it's a dying medium or whatever. But you know,

663
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: a lot of it goes back to what we talked

664
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: about all the way back with Carson that you know

665
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: a lot of these late night hosts are gatekeepers for

666
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: not what's funny, but the funny that people recognize. Yeah,

667
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: So the fact that so many of these comedians who

668
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: come on board. Are the writers who are in the

669
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: writer's room. The fact that so many of them are

670
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: still mail means that there are a lot of funny

671
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: perspectives out there that just aren't getting hurt. Well. I

672
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: wonder if there are any comedians listening. I would be

673
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: curious from an insider perspective, whether it would be even

674
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: more important though, to focus on diversifying those writers rooms,

675
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: because again, when it comes to what those hosts are

676
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: even going to be spouting out to begin with, that

677
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: is the product. So I mean, obviously their delivery and

678
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: some of their you know, their comedic instincts as well,

679
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: but by and large their jokes written by their writers.

680
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: So if you diversify the writers, then you diversify what's

681
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: on screen. And I think they were I mean, I

682
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: do think that the comedy we're seeing coming out of

683
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: the shows hosted by you know, Kimmel, Fallon, Myers, etcetera.

684
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: These younger guys is fresher than what you would see

685
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: on Leno of the past and Letterman soon to be

686
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: of the past. But there's still progress to be made.

687
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: So I want predictions from folks of who will be

688
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: the first female light night host because at some point,

689
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: if only, if only, to get the ratings boost that

690
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: would happen, at least for the beginning. A network is

691
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: going to do it, it will happen. But who's it

692
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: gonna be? Who wants it? I wonder if these like

693
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: you know, I wonder if Tina Fey really wants it.

694
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: I doubt she does. She can do anything she wants.

695
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: Maybe Ellen does. If Ellen already has the daytime talk show,

696
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: but she's got I mean, but she has the daytime

697
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: show on lock she does have a huge audience. Yeah,

698
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: why would she leap over? I don't know. Now I'm

699
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: trying to get into the head of Ellen, which means

700
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: it's time for us to wrap up the show. So

701
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: and and yes, if there are any comedy writers or

702
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: comedians listening, definitely want to hear from you, any late

703
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: night fans. Let us know your thoughts. Mom Stuff at

704
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: how Stuff works dot Com is where you can send

705
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 1: us your letters. You can also tweet us at Mom's

706
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: Stuff podcast or send us a message on Facebook. And

707
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you

708
00:42:54,480 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: right now. Okay, Well, Chris and I received a couple

709
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: of letters that we're going to share about our fraternity's episode,

710
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: and I have one here from a woman who would

711
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: like to remain anonymous. She says, thanks for the recent

712
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: story about fraternity, as I was not involved in the

713
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: Greek system, but I'm now friends with guys who were

714
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: in a fraternity together. These men are not animal house stereotypes.

715
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: They are business owners and successful professionals. They are loving

716
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 1: husbands and fathers. They have vegetable gardens and volunteer in

717
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: their spare time. They are kind and generous men, and

718
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: they all have serious problems with alcohol. Drinking heavily was

719
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: central to how they form their friendships, and it continues

720
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 1: to be key to how they relate to each other.

721
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: Abstaining from drinking when they're together is like joining a

722
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: game of basketball and then sitting in the bleachers. Everyone

723
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: stairs and wants to know what's wrong. When one of

724
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: the group tries to go sober or at least significantly

725
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: cut back, the others pulling back in telling him you're

726
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: so much more fun when you drink, or I'm so

727
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: glad you're drinking again. These men do sincerely care about

728
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: each other. For them, quitting drinking doesn't just mean giving

729
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: up alcohol. It means distancing themselves from guys who have

730
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: been their best friends for almost fifteen years. I can't

731
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: imagine what it would take to change the drinking culture

732
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: within college fraternities, but I wish the national organizations would

733
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: do something to help the thousands of guys who carried

734
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: that culture with them after they graduate. So I've got

735
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 1: a letter here from a guy also about our fraternity podcast.

736
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: You would also like to remain anonymous. And he has

737
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: lots of experience in fraternities because he has, in fact,

738
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: served as president of his fraternity at a large school.

739
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 1: So he he went through a lot of the different

740
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: topics that we touched on, and I can't read the

741
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 1: entire letter, but I do want to call out a

742
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: few things that he talked about. So he said, drinking, Yes,

743
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: we drink a lot, some more than others. There is

744
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: a saying that the only reason sororities don't care that

745
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: they are dry is because they can come and drink

746
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: for free at our houses. When it comes to hazing,

747
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: we don't haze, but then a and everyone says that.

748
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: I will say that physical hazing has been replaced with

749
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 1: psychological hazing, typically with events that are designed to mentally

750
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: stress the new members and hopes that the shared duress

751
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: helps the new members bond as pledge class. On the

752
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 1: occasion that there is an incident a k a. Someone

753
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: screws up, gets hurt, or someone gets caught hazing, charges

754
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: are dropped and honestly they should just be labeled assault

755
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: and battery. And then when it comes to sexual assault,

756
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: he says, we hate it as much as anyone and personally,

757
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: nothing makes my blood boil more. We especially hate the

758
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: people who take advantage of intoxicated women. To say it

759
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: doesn't happen is naive, but it's something that we as

760
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: a community you need to work on, and not just

761
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,479
Speaker 1: the Greek community either. Just a final note, typically, yes,

762
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: there is one bad egg. Every house has that one

763
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: insert your favorite expletive who screws everything up for everyone.

764
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: Everyone I know says that joining a fraternity is the

765
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: best decision they made in college. The only complaint I

766
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: have is this habit of the media has to only

767
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,720
Speaker 1: report on the problems with fraternity life and to answer

768
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: your questions. The main reasons guys typically don't stop other

769
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,919
Speaker 1: guys from being quote bad apples is because they are

770
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: your brother. There is always a hierarchy within the fraternity,

771
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: and typically when you've been involved in the fraternity for

772
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: a lesser period of time, you feel less powerful. Something

773
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: all new members fail to recognize is that as the

774
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: people with the longest time left in the fraternity, you

775
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: have the most power to change the house for the better.

776
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: My house actually kicked out all of our quote bad

777
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: apples a few years ago, and while money has been

778
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: tightened the meantime, we have never been happier as a house.

779
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: Members need to seize an active role in their fraternity

780
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: and decide to make it where they wanted to be.

781
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: Fraternity life shouldn't be a lifestyle you join. It should

782
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 1: be a lifestyle you create for yourself and for your brothers. Yes,

783
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: you do join a house for the values they hold

784
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: and ideally your health to those values, and that is hard.

785
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: But the hard choices are the ones that typically need

786
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 1: to be made. If fraternity is focused more on recruiting

787
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: the best men they can, and all of this would

788
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: be avoided. Realistically, there will always be that one fraternity

789
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 1: that has all the bad apples no one else wanted.

790
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: Avoid them, don't go to their parties, don't go to

791
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: their events, don't encourage your behavior and they will hopefully

792
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: go away. Forgive me if I was a little ranty,

793
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: but fraternity life is something I highly value and hope

794
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 1: that it will continue well into the future. And that's

795
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: not ranty at all, as I actually wrote back to

796
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: this fellow of thanking him for his insight, because that's

797
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: exactly what we asked for. So thank you to him

798
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: and everybody else who has written into us. Mom stuff

799
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: at how stuffwork dot com is our email address and

800
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media's as well

801
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: as all of our podcast blogs and videos, which if

802
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: you look in our videos and go to how to

803
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 1: Talk to Boys, it has featured a woman who has

804
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: written for Jimmy Alum, So if you want to see

805
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: a lady late night writer in action, head on over

806
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: the Stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. For more

807
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, visit how Stuff

808
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: Works dot com.