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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you.

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Speaker 4: Hey, fellow travelers.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

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Speaker 3: I write the Dear Guy Collumn for TED. And this

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Speaker 3: is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: This week, a trans man deals with family pushback as

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Speaker 1: he begins transitioning right before his sister's wedding.

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Speaker 4: My mother will go march for gay rights and all

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Speaker 4: of these things. But you know, as soon as her

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Speaker 4: son comes out to her that he is part of

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Speaker 4: the transgender community, that's where issues start arising. And then

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Speaker 4: it's like, Okay, well, maybe you're not as accepting as

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Speaker 4: you think that you are.

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Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.

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Speaker 3: Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice,

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Speaker 3: and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 3: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

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Speaker 3: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions

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Speaker 3: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a

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Speaker 3: letter you are agreeing to. Let iHeartMedia use it in

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Speaker 3: partner and full and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 3: and or clarity. Hey Laurie, Hey guy, Well this week

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Speaker 3: our letter is time sensitive.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, in that case, let's get right to it.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, let's do that. Dear therapists, I come to you

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Speaker 3: both begging for help on a tough issue I'm facing.

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Speaker 3: Last month, I came out to my family as transgender

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Speaker 3: and began my hormone replacement therapy in the lengthy conversion

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Speaker 3: of female to male. My sister is getting married, and

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Speaker 3: because of COVID, the wedding was postponed for months. The

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Speaker 3: wedding was originally planned for April and now will commence

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Speaker 3: next month. I'm serving as my sister's maid of honor,

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Speaker 3: and I'm expected to wear a dress and make up.

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Speaker 3: I've suffered from body dysphoria since a young age, constantly

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Speaker 3: covering up my body when swimming, dressing more masculine, and

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Speaker 3: it has been getting worse with the wedding drawing closer.

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Speaker 3: Finally allowing myself to wear what I feel comfortable in

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Speaker 3: has really made me so much happier, and I feel

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Speaker 3: like this wedding is throwing me back into the old discord.

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Speaker 3: I spoke to my sister about alternative options, but she

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Speaker 3: gave me an ultimatum. Wear the dress and stand on

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Speaker 3: her side, or wear the same thing as the men

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Speaker 3: and stand on his side standing next to a slough

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Speaker 3: of since gendered males in nice formal wear will only

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Speaker 3: make my body dysphoria worse. I've spoken to my other

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Speaker 3: sister about the matter, but she does not know what

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Speaker 3: to do or have any suggestions besides not being in

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Speaker 3: the wedding altogether. Please let me know if you have

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Speaker 3: any advice or even something I can do to try

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Speaker 3: and ease my anxiety about this day coming soon. The

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Speaker 3: plane at the moment is to endure the mental depression

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Speaker 3: and to just do this one thing for my sister,

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Speaker 3: even though it's really taking a toll on me. Liam.

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Speaker 1: This is a really tough situation for Liam, and it's

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Speaker 1: especially hard because I think that he's in uncharted territory

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Speaker 1: and I think that his family has just gotten this

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Speaker 1: news and they are trying to be supportive, but Liam

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Speaker 1: is not feeling supported, and it's hard for them to

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Speaker 1: communicate about what would make Liam feel supported.

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Speaker 3: We are at a place now in society where we're

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Speaker 3: recognizing that gender is not binary. And here Liam is

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Speaker 3: faced with a binary choice when he really doesn't want

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Speaker 3: to have to make a binary choice one way or

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Speaker 3: the other at the moment. And so there's this very

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Speaker 3: literal translation of where society is in terms of coming

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Speaker 3: to terms with the fluidity of gender.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right that this really underlines how aey

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Speaker 1: has not caught up. And you can see that on

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Speaker 1: the smaller level within families where people say this is

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Speaker 1: who I am and there are no rules, people don't

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Speaker 1: know what to do. And I think that we need

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Speaker 1: to help Liam to get his voice heard.

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Speaker 3: Here, let's go talk to him. You're listening to Deo

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Speaker 3: Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break.

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Speaker 3: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is

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Speaker 3: Deo Therapist.

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Speaker 4: So Hi Liam, Hi, Thank you guys so much for having.

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Speaker 3: Me, Thank you so much for coming on. So Liam,

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Speaker 3: we know this was time sensitive. Tell us if there's

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Speaker 3: been any developments since you wrote your letter.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely so. Initially, upon touching on this subject, I

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Speaker 4: feel as though I reached a point where I kind

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Speaker 4: of gave in to, yeah, I will go with what

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Speaker 4: you truly want, and then we kind of left it,

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Speaker 4: and I started to talk to my other sister, Tina,

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Speaker 4: and she really had no advice on where to go.

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Speaker 4: It was still bothering me. And then it just so

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Speaker 4: happened that my sister Sarah called, and it kind of

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Speaker 4: seemed like, oh, she called, let me just lightly bring

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Speaker 4: the subject back up, and at the mere mention of

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Speaker 4: this subject, she got very defensive and very touchy. I

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Speaker 4: reiterated that I was just trying to have a conversation,

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Speaker 4: but it was very clear her frustration about it. It

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Speaker 4: was I thought we dealt with it already. I thought

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Speaker 4: we had discussed what we were doing. So I was

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Speaker 4: met with a lot of emotion.

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Speaker 1: So Sarah's the one who's getting married, right, and what

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Speaker 1: is the birth order?

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Speaker 4: Tina is the oldest, She's about seven years my senior,

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Speaker 4: and then Sarah's two years my senior, and then I'm

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Speaker 4: the youngest.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And before this wedding stuff came up, and before

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Speaker 1: you told them that you were transitioning, what was your

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Speaker 1: relationship like with both of your sisters.

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Speaker 4: We had a bit of a rocky childhood, so we

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Speaker 4: got very close, very quickly. I was closer with Sarah

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Speaker 4: because we shared a room for majority of our childhood.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we've always been really close. I don't think

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Speaker 4: there's a day that I go without speaking to both

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Speaker 4: of them.

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Speaker 3: Tell us about the rockiness of the childhood.

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Speaker 4: We had abusive parents, so we stuck together through a

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Speaker 4: lot of hard times. We constantly were ripped out of

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Speaker 4: our home, stayed with other people. Some of our friends

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Speaker 4: couldn't know where we lived, so that was kind of hard.

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Speaker 4: We kind of looked at Tina like the mother sometimes,

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Speaker 4: if you will. She did a lot because she was

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Speaker 4: the oldest. I think everything affected her a little bit differently.

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Speaker 4: She kind of took on this leadership role and me

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Speaker 4: and Sarah kind of were waiting on her word, doing

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Speaker 4: what she thought would be best.

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Speaker 1: When you say you were ripped from your home, do

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Speaker 1: you mean that child services took you out of the home.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to say child services ever came, but

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Speaker 4: family members would come. My aunt would come and grab

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Speaker 4: us and we'd stay at her house. A lot of

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Speaker 4: my best friends in school, they weren't allowed to know

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Speaker 4: whose house we were staying at, just in case it

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Speaker 4: were to get back to my father, but we still

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Speaker 4: went to the same school, so he was able to come,

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Speaker 4: and he had lunch with me a couple times, so

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Speaker 4: that I feel like alienated me a little bit because

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Speaker 4: I would be sitting at the lunch table with my

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Speaker 4: father crying at the end, while the rest of my

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Speaker 4: class was happy eating lunch, and they're like, why is

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Speaker 4: why is his dad coming and sitting with them? And

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Speaker 4: all they do is cry.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, can you Can you tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about your parents and what might have been going

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Speaker 1: on with them and what kind of abuse you had

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Speaker 1: to endure.

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Speaker 4: The physical abuse was towards my mother. We witnessed it

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Speaker 4: and heard it a lot. We often were the ones

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Speaker 4: that had to call the cops, so that was terrifying.

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Speaker 4: We also had family members that would stop us from

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Speaker 4: calling the cops and tell us to go back in

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Speaker 4: our room and everything was fine, So then we would

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Speaker 4: have to crawl on the floor to get to the

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Speaker 4: phone to call for help. We were in a really

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Speaker 4: underdeveloped neighborhood, so it wasn't like we could run to

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Speaker 4: the neighbor's house and go, you know, ask for help

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Speaker 4: or anything like that, So that kind of banded us

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Speaker 4: all together. I feel like, in unfortunate ways.

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Speaker 3: There were other family members living in the home. They

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Speaker 3: were just visiting so of this and then told you

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Speaker 3: not to intervene.

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Speaker 4: They would be visiting. My maternal grandmother was majority of

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Speaker 4: the time the one to say, put the phone down,

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Speaker 4: go to your room. They're having a discussion.

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Speaker 3: You a maternal grandmother, No.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I think I misspoke my paternal that makes

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Speaker 4: my grandmother. And then because of that going on, my

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Speaker 4: then maternal grandmother came and stayed with us, kind of

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Speaker 4: acting like a guard dog almost to make sure that

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Speaker 4: none of that was going on with her daughter being involved.

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Speaker 3: And at what point did you leave the home the.

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Speaker 4: Final time that we left and did not come back,

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Speaker 4: I was seven, so that would make Sarah nine and

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Speaker 4: Tina must have been around fourteen.

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Speaker 3: And where did you go? What happened?

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Speaker 4: We went to one of my aunt's houses. It wasn't

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Speaker 4: the same town, it wasn't too inconvenient, but that was

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Speaker 4: one of the addresses that I wasn't allowed to have

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Speaker 4: friends over, and we kind of all crammed in this

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Speaker 4: two bedroom house and tried to live as completely normal

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Speaker 4: as everything was with your mom with my mother, when.

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Speaker 1: Did the body dysphoria start?

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Speaker 4: Honestly, when I was speaking to my mom about it

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Speaker 4: the first time. The way that I introduced the topic was,

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Speaker 4: do you remember when I was about five and every

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Speaker 4: time I would go in the pool, I would wear

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Speaker 4: this giant T shirt. Numerous times it was the reason

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Speaker 4: that I would be drowning, where it was like, why

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Speaker 4: do you wear that? That's not going to help you.

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Speaker 4: You know, wearing a bathing suit would be easier for

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Speaker 4: you to swim in. So I remember from a young

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Speaker 4: age I was constantly covering myself when I was going

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Speaker 4: in the pool. Also, I mean just dressing in general.

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Speaker 4: I was always I was very famous for wearing soccer

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Speaker 4: shorts to school, the same boyish outfits, if you will.

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Speaker 4: So I would say, as young as I can remember,

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Speaker 4: around like five or six, I was tending to cover up.

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Speaker 3: How old are you now, Liam, oh? Eight twenty eight?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So what was it about the last maybe year when

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Speaker 1: you decided you were ready to transition?

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Speaker 4: I think the biggest factors that allowed me to be

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Speaker 4: true to myself was that I just bought my first

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Speaker 4: house this year, so I have a perfectly safe environment

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Speaker 4: I have a great job that I work for amazing

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Speaker 4: people that don't treat me any different. They don't make

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Speaker 4: me feel as though I'm jeopardizing my job by being honest.

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Speaker 4: So really those main things is just having my shelter

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Speaker 4: that I don't have to worry about, and having my

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Speaker 4: job that isn't going to terminate me for any of

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Speaker 4: these reasons.

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Speaker 3: When did you first start to realize that you were

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Speaker 3: a transgender and when did you come out and how

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Speaker 3: did that go?

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Speaker 4: I think I've always really known. I was always wishing

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Speaker 4: on my birthday candles that I was a boy for

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Speaker 4: as long as I can remember. I thought that it

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Speaker 4: was something that nothing could be done. I just had

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Speaker 4: to deal with it. I had to suppress it. I

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Speaker 4: had to come to terms with this is the way

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Speaker 4: I was born, this is the way I'm going to die.

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Speaker 4: There's really nothing you can do about it. But really

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Speaker 4: seriously got into the idea of transitioning back in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 4: As soon as I got out of college. I went

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Speaker 4: to a big university, so it was very diverse. I

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Speaker 4: went to a lot of the LGBTQ community meetings, met

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Speaker 4: a lot of people through that, and twenty fourteen, I

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Speaker 4: spoke to one friend about it, one person I confided

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Speaker 4: in and really rest my true feelings, and he was great,

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Speaker 4: He was amazing, and he encouraged me to take the

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Speaker 4: next step. I set up all of the appointments that

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Speaker 4: I needed to with the doctors, and to be honest,

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Speaker 4: at the last second, I just did not go to

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Speaker 4: any of them. At the time, when I moved back

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Speaker 4: from college, I was living with my mother again, regrouping

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Speaker 4: on where to go now. I just finished college. What

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Speaker 4: kind of career am I going into? And I think

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Speaker 4: by that pressure it kind of teared me from taking

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Speaker 4: this route any sooner.

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Speaker 1: When you say that pressure, you mean you came home

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Speaker 1: from college, you told your mom and she didn't react.

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Speaker 4: Well, I didn't tell anybody back in twenty fourteen except

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Speaker 4: that one friend. The one friend. By skipping those appointments,

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Speaker 4: I think that was me weaseling out of actually addressing

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Speaker 4: the issue and talking about it with any of my

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Speaker 4: famis family. So I recently just came out to her

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Speaker 4: last month, and she is legally deaf. She relies heavily

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Speaker 4: on reading lips. We have a house phone that when

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Speaker 4: you call it will type the dialogue, so that she

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Speaker 4: can read it back. So I actually had her come

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Speaker 4: and stay with me, and I wanted to have this

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Speaker 4: conversation face to face with her.

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Speaker 1: How did that conversation go?

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Speaker 4: So I explained to her about the body dysporias since

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Speaker 4: I was young, you know, the bathing suit, the covering up.

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Speaker 4: I kind of was allowing her to connect her own

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Speaker 4: dots there. And as soon as I said the words

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Speaker 4: like I'm going to transition, the first thing that she

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Speaker 4: said was I knew you were going to say that.

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Speaker 4: In that moment, she told me everything that I did

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Speaker 4: want to hear. I still love you. I will never

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Speaker 4: cut you out of the family or stop talking to

285
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Speaker 4: you or stop loving you. And I felt very relieved

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Speaker 4: and very happy at that time. She was actually the

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Speaker 4: last person that I told even though I have a

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Speaker 4: great relationship with her. It was the hardest because she

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Speaker 4: was brought up very Catholic and I just was very

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Speaker 4: unsure of how she would take it. So I left

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Speaker 4: the best for lax.

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Speaker 3: Have you discussed it since? I mean, sometimes there's the

293
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Speaker 3: coming out conversation and then things get kind of shelled

294
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Speaker 3: or ignored or dismissed. Has it been discussed.

295
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Speaker 4: Since with her it has actually, so when she got

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Speaker 4: back from the vacation here, it was as if she

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Speaker 4: flipped a switch and everything she said was null and void.

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Speaker 4: She tried to talk me out of it, as if

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Speaker 4: it was something that one could be talked out of.

300
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Speaker 4: She told me that I need to be true to

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Speaker 4: who I am, in which case I responded, I'm trying

302
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 4: to be who I really am. She asked why I

303
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,840
Speaker 4: had to alter my body with hormones, why I have

304
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Speaker 4: to look differently, ultimately pointing out that my biological makeup

305
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,919
Speaker 4: isn't going to ever be the way that I really

306
00:18:25,919 --> 00:18:29,199
Speaker 4: truly want it to be. So hearing all of that

307
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,400
Speaker 4: made me frustrated at first, because these would have been

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Speaker 4: things that I wanted to discuss face to face. Again,

309
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,919
Speaker 4: she is deaf, so all of this is being portrayed

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Speaker 4: through text messages, which tone can be interpreted differently out

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Speaker 4: of context, and I really didn't want to make her

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Speaker 4: feel as though I was attacking her or anything. But

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Speaker 4: on the other hand, I felt very attacked and very

314
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Speaker 4: lied to. I felt like she was saying that because

315
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Speaker 4: she was in front of me, not because she was

316
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Speaker 4: really accepting and really loved me and really didn't want

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Speaker 4: me to feel alienated.

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Speaker 3: You know, what happens sometimes with parents in these situations

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00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,119
Speaker 3: is that when she's face to face with you, she

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Speaker 3: is in that moment living how much she loves you

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Speaker 3: and how much she cares about you. And I believe

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Speaker 3: that what comes out in those moments can be more

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Speaker 3: authentic because she's with you. This is how she truly

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Speaker 3: feels about you. Yes, I want you to be happy.

325
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Speaker 3: But then when she goes home and you're not in

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Speaker 3: front of her, then she deals with the consequences of

327
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Speaker 3: having to deal with telling the people around her and

328
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,159
Speaker 3: the community and the family knowing, and what feedback she

329
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 3: will get from that, and she starts to think about

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Speaker 3: herself perhaps and what she's going to say to people,

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Speaker 3: how she's going to feel, And then she takes a

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Speaker 3: step back. And I think what's important to remember is

333
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,959
Speaker 3: that you've had many, many years to process this, and

334
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 3: she needs a little bit of time to go through

335
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Speaker 3: that process as well. She's hearing this for the first time,

336
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 3: even though she's suspected that's not the same as really

337
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 3: processing it.

338
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Speaker 1: I can understand why you feel hurt, because what you

339
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,119
Speaker 1: want from your parent is I'm really happy for you

340
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,879
Speaker 1: that you are finally going to get to live in

341
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: the way that it's true to you, right, and now

342
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,719
Speaker 1: you get to live who you actually are. She does

343
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 1: have some catching up to do it, but at the

344
00:20:25,639 --> 00:20:29,719
Speaker 1: same time, there's this ticking clock of this wedding, and

345
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 1: so I wonder how your sisters since you told them first,

346
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Speaker 1: how did your sisters react? Who did you tell first,

347
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Speaker 1: and how did those conversations.

348
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Speaker 3: Go and when.

349
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, so honestly, this was the second time that I've

350
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,879
Speaker 4: come out to my family. I identified for the first

351
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,199
Speaker 4: twenty eight years of my life as a lesbian, So

352
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 4: the first time around, Tina was the most accepting, and

353
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Speaker 4: she was also the one that was like, yeah, I know,

354
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 4: it's okay. It's okay that you finally are okay with it.

355
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 4: That meant the world to me. That made me feel

356
00:21:06,639 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 4: exactly how I feel she intended to make me feel. Sarah,

357
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 4: on the other hand, was very surprised, which it made

358
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,239
Speaker 4: me giggle. It was funny because I'm like, you know

359
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 4: me better than anyone. We've shared a room for almost

360
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 4: twenty years together, and this is catching you off guard.

361
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 4: But sure, all very accepting about coming out as gay

362
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 4: in high school The second time was harder for me,

363
00:21:34,919 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 4: but I feel like they were both very very accepting,

364
00:21:38,879 --> 00:21:43,999
Speaker 4: very supportive, and encouraging, actually very encouraging.

365
00:21:44,639 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 3: You came out to Sarah and Tatino? When was there

366
00:21:47,639 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 3: second time?

367
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Speaker 4: A month ago?

368
00:21:49,639 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 3: Oh?

369
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 4: Okay, so very recent, very recent. Yeah, I wanted to

370
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 4: tell them before I actually started my hormone replacement therapy.

371
00:21:59,159 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 4: I wanted to clear the air so everybody would be

372
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 4: on the same page. I anticipated needing a lot of support,

373
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Speaker 4: so I wanted everybody to be caught up in well aware.

374
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Speaker 3: Can I ask you who else is there in your

375
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 3: life that gives you support?

376
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,039
Speaker 4: Plot twist? My father is actually a huge part of

377
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 4: my life now.

378
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:19,959
Speaker 3: That is a blood twist.

379
00:22:20,679 --> 00:22:26,479
Speaker 4: Yeah. I've always considered myself like a well from before

380
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 4: this point, a daddy's girl, right. I am very much

381
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 4: my father's son. I've connected through my childhood, even through

382
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 4: all of the horrible things that I've endured because of him,

383
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 4: our relationship now is truly better than ever when I

384
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 4: came out to him. My father is very open minded.

385
00:22:47,439 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 4: When I first told him that I have always felt

386
00:22:50,439 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 4: like his son, he responded to that by saying, I've

387
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 4: always felt you were my son, and he normalized it

388
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 4: and made me feel as though this was a realization

389
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,559
Speaker 4: that maybe I was just coming to but he had

390
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,719
Speaker 4: thought about before. But he treated me with nothing but

391
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 4: respect and love and support. And it really caught me

392
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 4: off guard because I thought the reactions between my mother

393
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,719
Speaker 4: and father would have been crisscrossed if you would have

394
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 4: asked me who was going to react? Which way?

395
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Speaker 1: Can you fill us in on what happened? So once

396
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 1: you moved out and there was this abuse going on,

397
00:23:26,399 --> 00:23:28,999
Speaker 1: how did you reconcile with your father after that?

398
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 4: There was a lot of time that I didn't. There

399
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 4: was a lot of time that I would see him

400
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 4: and I would give him the silent treatment and the

401
00:23:39,439 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 4: cold shoulder. Christmas would come and go, my Birthday would

402
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 4: come and go, and I would have no contact with him, nothing,

403
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 4: And those were really what hurt me. So mostly I

404
00:23:50,439 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 4: responded by not speaking to him and kind of just

405
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 4: pushing him further away.

406
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 1: Did you ever have a conversation as you got older

407
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 1: about the abuse and did he ever take responsibility for it?

408
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 4: I actually did the last time that he was here.

409
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 4: My whole family still resides in Florida, So he came

410
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 4: up here and We had been great the entire time

411
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 4: that he was here, but plans got mixed up because

412
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 4: of COVID and my mother was supposed to come up

413
00:24:22,439 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 4: as well, and my father was still here, so they

414
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 4: went ahead. The plan was that my father was going

415
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 4: to leave and before my mother came, so there was

416
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 4: going to be no overlap. Unbeknownst to me, they went

417
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 4: ahead and made plans in which my mother was now

418
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 4: coming up while my father was still here, and then

419
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 4: they were going to drive back to Florida together while

420
00:24:46,639 --> 00:24:51,799
Speaker 4: staying at my house for another seven days. Now, I

421
00:24:51,879 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 4: work an overnight job, so I tend to leave my

422
00:24:54,399 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 4: house at six pm and I don't get home until

423
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 4: around five thirty six am. So those feelings started to

424
00:25:02,159 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 4: resonate with me. Oh my gosh, my parents are going

425
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 4: to be alone in my house while I'm not there,

426
00:25:09,679 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 4: and all the memories started flooding back. Everything started making

427
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 4: me anxious, and I didn't feel like I really had

428
00:25:19,919 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 4: a say in it at all until I really sat

429
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,239
Speaker 4: with my feelings and spoke to both of my sisters, like,

430
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 4: why are our parents acting like this is normal that

431
00:25:30,399 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 4: they're going to come and stay with me? That would

432
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 4: be perfectly normal if they were a couple and they

433
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 4: were still together, and you know, our childhood didn't happen.

434
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 4: But I feel like I was being extremely gaslighted into

435
00:25:41,399 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 4: thinking that this was not only okay but normal. I

436
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 4: hate to use that word safe. Safe is better?

437
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So clearly they had been in touch and

438
00:25:52,919 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: had some kind of understanding. Were you aware of that?

439
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 4: When I addressed my mother, she told me your father

440
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 4: and I have had a relationship for the past two years.

441
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 4: We are friends, we know where we stand with each other.

442
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 4: And then she went on to say during the hurricanes,

443
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 4: he stayed at the house with me. Now, that was

444
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 4: more than I really needed to hear. I appreciate that

445
00:26:18,919 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 4: they have been honest throughout this entire thing, but it

446
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 4: didn't ease any of my anxiety or make me feel

447
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 4: safe at all.

448
00:26:27,159 --> 00:26:29,759
Speaker 1: So what happened when you addressed it? Did that give

449
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,239
Speaker 1: you an opening to have a conversation about the abuse

450
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: that had happened.

451
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 4: When I told my mother, I don't feel okay with this,

452
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 4: it was very what we told you about this, Well

453
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 4: you were fine about this, Well, why is it a

454
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 4: big deal now? And I persisted to tell her it

455
00:26:45,159 --> 00:26:48,999
Speaker 4: doesn't make me feel okay, I've been very anxious, and

456
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 4: then that led to just inevitably my father being like,

457
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 4: what's going on? You don't want your mother to come

458
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 4: up here, very innocently, very you know, testing the waters,

459
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 4: and that was kind of just the last straw, I

460
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 4: would say. I went off on him in the sense

461
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 4: of saying, I'm I think my opening remark is I'm

462
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 4: finished calling the police. I'm finished doing that. I do

463
00:27:12,919 --> 00:27:17,719
Speaker 4: not want to do that again. And he was taken

464
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 4: back by it, and the ball started rolling, everything started

465
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 4: coming out. I've told him how everything he's done in

466
00:27:25,439 --> 00:27:28,239
Speaker 4: the past had manipulated the way that I turned out,

467
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: and maybe he didn't realize it because he wasn't around

468
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 4: to see the effects that he had then had on

469
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 4: my life. I even apologize halfway through it, saying, look,

470
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 4: I'm sorry to dump all of this on you, but

471
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 4: you have been gone for almost twenty years. You never

472
00:27:44,439 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 4: had to sit here and listen to what has happened

473
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 4: to me, and you never got to hear what you

474
00:27:51,879 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 4: did to me. I have thrown all of that on

475
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 4: mom for the past twenty eight years. She has heard

476
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,959
Speaker 4: everything because she was there. You weren't there, And I

477
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 4: told him how it felt that I was abandoned and

478
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 4: my dad isn't a bad guy. I know the reason

479
00:28:09,159 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 4: that this all had occurred was due to heavy drug use.

480
00:28:13,639 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 4: And I told him I felt every day you had

481
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 4: a choice, and every day you walked right past your

482
00:28:20,399 --> 00:28:24,759
Speaker 4: family and you chose the lifestyle that you wanted. And

483
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 4: I told him how that made me feel. And honestly,

484
00:28:27,879 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 4: I think that is why we have a great relationship now.

485
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 4: I never had that cathartic release of look at what

486
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 4: you did.

487
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 3: How did he respond?

488
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 4: A few tears? He was really taken back. He was

489
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 4: very silent. I remember saying, do you have anything to say?

490
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 4: Because now I feel like I had just spilled my

491
00:28:54,640 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 4: heart out to somebody and then them just be like silent.

492
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: Was he able to talk to you about what had

493
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,279
Speaker 1: happened and was he able to take responsibility?

494
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 4: He did say sorry. He never touched on any subjects

495
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 4: of abuse or drug use or anything. It was just

496
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

497
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 3: So you've really been practicing being authentic over the past

498
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 3: couple of years, having you because you're laying it on

499
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: out there in terms of friends or a partner, other

500
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: other people in your life who support you.

501
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, I moved up here out fresh out off of

502
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 4: a breakup. Our plans were to move here together, and

503
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 4: then I was dumped and I continued on and I said, okay, well,

504
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 4: this is the plan that I had been working towards.

505
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 4: I'm just going to go ahead and do it myself.

506
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 4: Then so I packed up and moved out here, and

507
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 4: not too long ago, I was contacted again and I

508
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 4: was given the whole I'm so sorry. I really messed up.

509
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 4: I'd really like to try again. I'm going to move

510
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 4: up there. Can we work this out? And me, being

511
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 4: the one that never lost the love in the first place,

512
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 4: was like, of course, yeah, I've been working on myself

513
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 4: for the past year. I'm not the same person. I'm

514
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 4: sure you're not the same person. But if it's true,

515
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 4: it'll work. And we started to see each other, and

516
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,559
Speaker 4: then when I came out as transgender, she told me

517
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 4: that this wasn't what she wanted, and then that was

518
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 4: the last time we spoke.

519
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 3: I'm sorry to hear that. Are you in touch with

520
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 3: any other transgender people? In terms of getting support through this.

521
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 4: Process, I've heavily relied on social media to allow me

522
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 4: to have visibility into this community. But I can't say

523
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 4: that I have one in person, real life friend that

524
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 4: I see or talk to. Just people that are visible

525
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 4: for other people that can't be that want to provide

526
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 4: information and support, and YouTube has really been a life

527
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 4: saving tool for me for just any type of information

528
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 4: or education.

529
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, I think about when I'm hearing all of this,

530
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: is how difficult your childhood was, and how you were

531
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: so resilient throughout all of this, and at the same

532
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: time you were struggling with this knowledge, this place of

533
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: knowing in yourself that you are male, and so there's

534
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: something in you that has been so able, even with

535
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: this last breakup, to say this is who I am.

536
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: And so when I fast forward to the wedding and

537
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: I think about the trouble you're having, You've been through

538
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: so much and gotten through so much and stayed true

539
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: to yourself. So let's talk a little bit about why

540
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: this wedding makes it so hard for you to stay

541
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: true to yourself.

542
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 4: As much as my family is very accepting, I think

543
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 4: that this issue really shows that people can be accepting

544
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 4: and supportive, but I think once that person is involved

545
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 4: in their inner sphere, that is where the really it

546
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,239
Speaker 4: shows that they aren't as accepting as they think they are. Like,

547
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 4: my mother will go march for gay rights and all

548
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 4: of these things, but you know, as soon as her

549
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 4: son comes out to her that he is part of

550
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 4: the transgender community, that's where issues start arising. And then

551
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 4: it's like, Okay, well maybe you're not as accepting as

552
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 4: you think that you are. And I think that that

553
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 4: is showing a little bit with my sister, and I

554
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 4: don't want to hurt her feelings by saying that she's

555
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 4: not accepting as she may think she is. I just

556
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 4: think that she has traditional values and there's absolutely nothing

557
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,519
Speaker 4: wrong with that. I just think it's harder for me

558
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 4: to fit those traditional values and still be true to myself.

559
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this in your mind, and

560
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,759
Speaker 1: what would it look like to be true to yourself

561
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: at Sarah's wedding.

562
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 4: So I am her maid of honor, so I know

563
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 4: that I'm going to be at her side. What would

564
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 4: make me feel comfortable would be wearing men's formal wear.

565
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,519
Speaker 4: The day of her wedding, I will be taking my

566
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 4: seventh testosterone shot, So my mind is somewhere, and then

567
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 4: my outer appearance is I feel is being stuffed back

568
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 4: into a closet.

569
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: Well, so you're saying you want to wear men's formal wear.

570
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 4: Right, I mean she pointed out that the mother of

571
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 4: the bride and the grandmother of the bride are usually

572
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 4: in a pants suit or you know, something different than

573
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 4: a formal gown. And even that I would feel a

574
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 4: little bit less out of place. I would feel a

575
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 4: little bit more aligned if I was wearing anything, honestly,

576
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 4: other than address.

577
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: Didn't Sarah offer to Didn't she say to you one

578
00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: of the options was that you could wear what the

579
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: men are wearing.

580
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think that that was not a very

581
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 4: genuine option, and only because they are having a man

582
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 4: handstitch these beautiful Italian suits and they had to start

583
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 4: this process because they are being handmade so long ago.

584
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 4: She may have meant it genuinely, but in actuality, I

585
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 4: don't think there was any way of that truly happening.

586
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: If there was a way to make it happen. Does

587
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 1: that excite you the idea of wearing this custom made suit?

588
00:34:56,720 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 4: Honestly, it actually pushed me more towards okay, just conform

589
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 4: to this female appearance, because all I could think about

590
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 4: when she said that was standing next to a bunch

591
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 4: of cisgendered males that are going to look great in

592
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 4: their formal wear. And then you have me going through

593
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 4: my second puberty, only like six to seven weeks on testosterone,

594
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: still very female presenting, and I think that that would

595
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 4: do more harm to my mind than anything. I think

596
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 4: it would make me feel even worse out of place,

597
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 4: like I don't fit.

598
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 1: So you want to wear men's formal wear, but you

599
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: don't want to wear something that's such a direct comparison

600
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: to those men.

601
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 4: And I think standing on his side also, I was against,

602
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 4: and not because I don't like him. He's a great guy.

603
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 4: This is where I guess my values don't align with

604
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 4: traditional values, because in my mind, the perfect way this

605
00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 4: wedding would go would be me wearing this nice suit

606
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 4: or blazer or whatever, matching her standing on her side.

607
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 4: Whereas she sees it as okay, if you want to

608
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 4: be male presenting, stand on the male side. If you

609
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 4: want to be female presenting, stand on my side, which

610
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 4: is fine, it's just more traditional, whereas an I could

611
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 4: see me very well wearing men's formal wear but standing

612
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 4: on her side.

613
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 3: Have you had a discussion with her about this whole

614
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 3: idea of gender being non binary, and that she's actually

615
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 3: asking you to revert to one or the other, and

616
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 3: your feeding is I would like to do something that's

617
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: a little bit more in the middle, stand on your side,

618
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 3: but where something that has a jacket to it or

619
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 3: something like that. Have you had that discussion with her

620
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 3: so she can connect it not just to the visuals

621
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 3: of the wedding, but to the feelings you have about

622
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 3: gender and about yourself and what you want to present

623
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: to the world.

624
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. So in the very first conversation we spoke about this,

625
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 4: there was a point in the conversation where we were

626
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 4: discussing me wearing something other than the dress that I

627
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 4: already bought. We already have it. I mentioned wearing the

628
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 4: same color but something different, and her response, which I

629
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 4: took as the most authentic, raw emotion of how she

630
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 4: truly felt, was her saying, I don't want my photos

631
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 4: to look weird. And once she said that, I felt

632
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 4: something in me shut down. I was like, Okay, nope,

633
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 4: I'm not doing this. I don't want her to feel

634
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 4: any type of way. This is her special day. I

635
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 4: will choke down any feelings I have. I can do

636
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 4: this one thing for her, and I knew that no

637
00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 4: matter how many times if she were to say I

638
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 4: take it back or I don't think photos would look weird,

639
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 4: I knew that that was how she truly felt. And

640
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 4: I was like, it's over in my mind. I'm going

641
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 4: to do this for her. She told me how she really.

642
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 3: Feels, is that where you are right now when you're

643
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 3: thinking yes.

644
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 4: Because the second time that we spoke about it, where

645
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 4: I was kind of just trying to talk to her

646
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 4: about it, she, after all, is my best friend. And

647
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 4: I went to the depths of saying, you know, I

648
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 4: haven't been shaving my legs or shaving under my arms,

649
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 4: and I was explaining to her how it felt so relieving.

650
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 4: I was finally able to express how I feel. Things

651
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 4: were actually starting to align, and I told her, if

652
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 4: this may sound very trivial to you, but I don't

653
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 4: want to shave, and of course I'm going to need to.

654
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 4: I mean not of course, but I guess I would

655
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 4: be expected to. And I was telling her how those

656
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 4: little things may not mean much at face value, but

657
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 4: they really did mean something to me. At that time,

658
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 4: she was like flustered again, and I feel bad because

659
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 4: I know that this was all just another issue that

660
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 4: she had to deal with, the makeup people, canceling, the

661
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 4: hair people. You know, it's a crazy time to have

662
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 4: a wedding. So when I brought it back up, I

663
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 4: think that's where some of the frustration went, because she's like, great,

664
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 4: another thing I have to deal with.

665
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: So was there any closure on that? Did she have

666
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 3: what you would do in that regard?

667
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 4: I think she realized that she was being a bit harsh,

668
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 4: that she was maybe coming across as unwilling to move

669
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 4: her position or look for a solution, And after leaving

670
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 4: the conversation like that, giving herself time to reflect, I

671
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 4: then got a text message later at work saying, look,

672
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 4: I'm really sorry if you feel like I'm not supporting you.

673
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 4: I want you to be happy, and I know you're

674
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 4: going along with this because you want me to be happy.

675
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 4: And then she followed that up by saying, let's fix this,

676
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 4: let's do something about this. But I see where she's

677
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 4: going with it, and I really just think that I

678
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 4: need to just do this for her.

679
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: What do you mean you see where she's going with it.

680
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 4: I think she wants me to know that she would

681
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 4: maybe sit with some uncomfortable feelings that she had if

682
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 4: I were to, Okay, yeah, let's change it up now,

683
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 4: which I don't feel like I can do because of

684
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 4: time constraints, and just truly knowing that she wouldn't be

685
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 4: as happy with her photos.

686
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 3: She might not be as happy with her photos if

687
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 3: she thought you weren't happy in them.

688
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 4: And that's another thing. She was saying. She doesn't want

689
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 4: her photos to look weird. And what's going through my

690
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 4: head is, I'm never gonna want to look at those

691
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 4: photos because it's not going to be who I am.

692
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 3: So when she said to you, let's fix this, have

693
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 3: you given any thought to what that might be on

694
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:49,720
Speaker 3: urine that would make you feel less dysphoric? Yeah?

695
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 4: Absolutely. I did suggest that maybe after the ceremony I

696
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 4: could change and then wear something that involves pants as

697
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 4: opposed to the dress, and she went for that, and

698
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 4: she said, of course, whatever you want. And I guess

699
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 4: that has kind of just been the middle ground that

700
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 4: we're leaving there. I don't know if I actually will

701
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 4: end up going to change. I guess I'm kind of

702
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 4: waiting to really see how I feel in it.

703
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about how it was only a month ago

704
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: that you revealed that you were transitioning, And with weddings,

705
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of planning that takes months and months

706
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,720
Speaker 1: and months, and so I'm just curious to know if

707
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: you thought about that while she was planning the wedding,

708
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: while all this was going on, how you thought about

709
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: the timing of that and what you thought would be

710
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 1: realistic given the tight timing.

711
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 4: So, originally the wedding was supposed to take place in

712
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 4: April pre COVID, so I thought I wouldn't even come

713
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 4: out until after the wedding was already finished, and then

714
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 4: it being pushed back presented obviously more problems. When I

715
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 4: did initially come out to Sarah, I told her, I

716
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 4: can wait to even begin my transition until after your wedding,

717
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 4: if that would make you feel better, make anybody feel better.

718
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 4: I was a little bit worried about how his family

719
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 4: might react, and she was quick to say, absolutely not.

720
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 4: You've waited long enough. You do what you want to do,

721
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 4: and it's okay.

722
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: Both of you are sort of saying we want to

723
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: make sure the other person is happy, and yet you

724
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: are holding on to those words about the photos that

725
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: I think she's come around in a lot of ways

726
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: where maybe in a perfect world for her, she would

727
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: like her photos to look a certain way, But she

728
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: also says I love you so much and I want

729
00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: you to be happy, and I want you to be

730
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: who you really are. And yet you're saying, yeah, I'll

731
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: just wear the dress to make her happy.

732
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 4: Do you see?

733
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: So it's almost like you're putting yourself in a prison

734
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: that you're not actually in.

735
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 4: I agree.

736
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 3: What stands out for me is how much you and

737
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 3: Sarah love each other. You've been through this really difficult

738
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 3: traumatic childhood. You shared the room, you were there for

739
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 3: having to call the police. You clearly really love each other.

740
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 3: And as Laurie was saying, she wants you to be

741
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: happy and you want her to be happy. You really

742
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 3: have done such a remarkable job of being authentic and

743
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: speaking your truth and really telling people how you feel

744
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 3: and who you are over these past years. And I

745
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 3: think there has to be elements of that in this

746
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: wedding where you feel authentic to you. But when you say, well,

747
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 3: I'll do it for her, that is you not giving

748
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 3: yourself the authenticity have to be pictures you can look

749
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 3: at and be happy.

750
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 4: I mean, when Tina got married. I wore a dress,

751
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 4: and I love those pictures. I think maybe I'm a

752
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 4: very anxiety written person. Maybe I am just letting my

753
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 4: thoughts get the better of me, and that when I

754
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 4: do see myself in that dress, and when I do

755
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 4: see how happy my sister is, maybe I don't feel

756
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 4: the way that I anticipate that I'm feeling.

757
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: You know what, Liam, I hear you talking yourself out

758
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: of your truth. And when you say that you were

759
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: happy looking at the pictures at Tina's wedding, you were

760
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: in a different place. Yeah, And this is where you

761
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: are now, and all of you siblings have gone through

762
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: so much together, and here's a really happy occasion. And

763
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: what's so happy about it is that your sister is saying, Look,

764
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm human. I have reactions to this thing. You are human,

765
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 1: You have reactions to things. But in the end, we

766
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 1: always come back to we love each other and we

767
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 1: want each of us to be true to ourselves. And

768
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: you keep fighting that she has come back to you

769
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: multiple times. You've recounted in this conversation how many times

770
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: she has come back to you and said, I want

771
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: to fix this, I want to make it right. I

772
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: want you to be comfortable and every time you argue

773
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: with it, and so this conversation with her just gets

774
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 1: prolonged and it becomes almost an argument where you're arguing

775
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 1: against yourself, and then she has to be the person

776
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: who is arguing on your behalf. And I think what's

777
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 1: happening is you're externalizing an internal argument. So you're making

778
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: this internal argument that you're having with yourself about well,

779
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: how public should.

780
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 4: I be about this?

781
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 1: And how do I feel about being public about this

782
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: in front of my family, in front of all of

783
00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: these people. And you may have some fear around that,

784
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: but don't make Sarah the bad guy.

785
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 4: In this, because she's not right.

786
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: So we're thinking about your situation and we have two

787
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: pieces of advice that we'd like you to try this week.

788
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: And the first is that we would like you to

789
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: have a different conversation with Sarah than the one that

790
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 1: is getting nowhere. This just keeps going back and forth,

791
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: and that is for you to say to Sarah, I

792
00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: am so excited for your big day. I am so

793
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: excited for this new chapter of your life, and I

794
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: want it to be everything that you want it to be.

795
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: And the reason that it's hard for me to either

796
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: wear a bridesmaid dress or to wear men's formal wear.

797
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: Is because I am transitioning and I am in the

798
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 1: middle right now, and I would like to go to

799
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 1: your wedding in a way that reflects that middle ground

800
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: where I actually am in life. And you have been

801
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: so gracious and supportive and I so appreciate that, and

802
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: I would like to figure out with you what would

803
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: make you comfortable that I can wear that reflects the

804
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: actual place that I am right now, which is in

805
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: that middle ground. And you talk about colors, and you

806
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: talk about style, and you talk about whatever it is,

807
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: and by the end of that conversation, you say, this

808
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: is the tailor we have to call, this is the

809
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: thing we're going to order, and you get that order

810
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: in by next week. Okay, So none of this back

811
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: and forth, none of this is what do we do?

812
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 1: And oh no, she's going to be displeased. Oh no,

813
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: then she thinks, so I'm going to be displeased. I

814
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: think you both actually agree. You've already resolved this. You're

815
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: not taking away anything from her day. The spotlight is

816
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: on her and you're in the middle, and you want

817
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: to wear something that reflects that. I think you're both

818
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: in agreement on that, So now you just have to

819
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: execute that. So instead of having this internal argument with

820
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: yourself that you're now externalizing to Sarah, you can say,

821
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I need to look at why this

822
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: is so hard for me to accept her offer.

823
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 3: Laurie Setti that you're having this argument in your own

824
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 3: head that you're then externalizing with Sarah. I think that's

825
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: primarily because you don't have other trans people to talk

826
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 3: to about very specific situations. You're on a journey that's

827
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 3: a marathon, it's not a sprint, and you really need

828
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 3: to have people who've been through it, who understand it,

829
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 3: who are going through it, that you can talk to

830
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 3: and you can share some of these feelings so that

831
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 3: you can get clear in your head that what you

832
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 3: feel is completely valid and legitimate and important. So the

833
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 3: second part of the advice we're giving you that we'd

834
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 3: like you to do this week is to find some

835
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 3: kind of trans support group where you're talking about these

836
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 3: things you need to have around you. People who really

837
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 3: truly get you from experience, are not just from love,

838
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 3: which is what you have right now, and that's great,

839
00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:27,280
Speaker 3: by the way. So those are the two things. How

840
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 3: do you feel about doing those things.

841
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 4: I've actually found a group that meets every other Sunday

842
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 4: with a focus on the transgender community. I just have

843
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 4: not yet made it to a meeting just because of

844
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 4: work constraints. But it is worth it to take a

845
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 4: day off of work to make this happen and to

846
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 4: get the support of people in my shoes. And it

847
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 4: really pained me to hear the first bit of advice

848
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 4: because I'm realizing that I did not say any of

849
00:49:59,720 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 4: those things. I'm so happy for you. I'm so excited

850
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 4: for your big day, and I really am thrilled for

851
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 4: her and I am excited for her, and it makes

852
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 4: me sad that I haven't a vocal that yet. So

853
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 4: I think both bits are very doable and I think

854
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:18,760
Speaker 4: this will definitely get us past, like you said, this

855
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 4: back and forth of really not getting anything done.

856
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 1: And it will be helpful to hear it too, because

857
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: there's so much stress before a wedding, and to say, listen,

858
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,720
Speaker 1: I think this got lost in all of the logistics.

859
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: I just want to let you know that I am

860
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: so excited you found this great person and I hope

861
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 1: to find a great person, and that you are there,

862
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: just as she has supported you, you are there to

863
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: support her that day and just say it's been hard

864
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: for me to accept your support because I'm so worried

865
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: about your feelings and I realize that not accepting your support,

866
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: I'm actually making it harder for you.

867
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, well, we wish you luck with this this week.

868
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 4: Thank you guys, appreciate it so much.

869
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: What I really liked about Liam was that he was

870
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 1: so resilient. He had been through so much in his life,

871
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: and yet at every turn he was able to stay

872
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: true to himself to get to the point where he

873
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: got to today. And I think there's still a part

874
00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: of him, because this is so new that he's gone public,

875
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: that isn't so sure about how to navigate this. And

876
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: I think because he's been so resilient, he thinks he

877
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: should just know how to do this. And that's why

878
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 1: it's so important for him to be able to talk

879
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: to other people and have some community around him.

880
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 3: I think what's blocking him a little bit is that

881
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 3: he loves his sisters so much and his mom, and

882
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 3: he's been able to forgive his dad, and he was

883
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 3: able to forgive is from a partner and try again.

884
00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 3: Is so empathetic that I think that that's what's bloging him.

885
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 3: He's thinking a little too much of other people's feelings

886
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,280
Speaker 3: and not prayer to himself quite enough, and being on

887
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 3: the path that he's on will help him find balance

888
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 3: between his own needs and the feelings of the people

889
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 3: around him.

890
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapist from My Heart Radio. We'll

891
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: be back after a quick break.

892
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 3: So, Laurie, we heard from Liam. Let's hear what happened.

893
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 4: Hi Laurie. Hi guy. So I spoke with Sarah one

894
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 4: last time, and we've come to the conclusion that I

895
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 4: will wear the dress throughout the ceremony and after the

896
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 4: ceremony when we all go to sit down to eat

897
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 4: and then dance later, I'm going to change into a

898
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 4: really nice mauve color blazer with just some nice pants

899
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 4: and a nice shirt underneath. That way, I can also

900
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 4: get a bunch of photos in that outfit that I

901
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 4: feel more comfortable in, and also my sister can get

902
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 4: her ceremonial pictures how she likes it. And I did

903
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 4: try to go to an in person support group, but

904
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 4: it does look like the COVID restrictions are still a

905
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 4: little too strict to have those in person meetings. I

906
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 4: did contact the group and they did say that they

907
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 4: do think that they'll be open soon, but I am

908
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 4: continuing to look for a virtual support group until I

909
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 4: can make those meetings. So again, I just wanted to

910
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 4: thank you guys so much for listening and sharing my

911
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 4: story and providing me with some really great advice. So

912
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 4: thank you guys so much.

913
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that Liam talked to Sarah. I remember

914
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 1: that one of the things we wanted him to get

915
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 1: across to her was how excited he is for her wedding,

916
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: and I think that that somehow maybe got lost in here,

917
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: even though there's so much love between the two of them,

918
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: and so we didn't hear from Liam. Whether that happened,

919
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. If it's just hard for the two

920
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 1: of them to communicate because of the discomfort they're having

921
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: around talking about something that's hard for both of them.

922
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: And this might be hard for Sarah in ways that

923
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: they haven't been able to talk about, or Sarah hasn't

924
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,720
Speaker 1: been able to talk about for fear of hurting Liam's feelings.

925
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: So I'm glad they came to a compromise. I'm not

926
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: convinced that the sentiment that we hoped Liam would get

927
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: across happen. And I also think it's very common that

928
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: something very concrete like a wedding becomes the focus of

929
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 1: a deeper conversation that needs to be had, and so

930
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,760
Speaker 1: this just happened last month. Everybody is all of a

931
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 1: sudden talking about, Okay, Liam is transitioning. What does that

932
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 1: mean for how is going to be at the wedding?

933
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: And that's one conversation, but it opens the door for

934
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: the many conversations that are going to happen after this.

935
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 3: I completely agree. The one great service this wedding did

936
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 3: is it forced him to have several conversations about Liam's transitioning,

937
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 3: which meant that in the early stages, they already established

938
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 3: this is something we're going to be able to talk about,

939
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 3: we're going to need to talk about, and they already

940
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 3: established that president which will be so valuable going forward

941
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 3: with the process for Liam especially, but for his sisters

942
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 3: and family as well.

943
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 1: It's great that Liam is looking into local support groups

944
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,240
Speaker 1: because it's really important for him to be able to

945
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: talk with other people who are going through what he's

946
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: going through. I think Liam is setting the stage for

947
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: creating the kind of support around him that will make

948
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: this process go as smoothly as possible for him.

949
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going to be an exciting time ahead for Liam. Hey,

950
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 3: fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice from

951
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 3: the podcast in your own life, send us a quick

952
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:22,280
Speaker 3: voice memo to Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell

953
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 3: us about it. We may include it in a future show.

954
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show,

955
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 3: please take a moment to rate and review it.

956
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot

957
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb

958
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 1: one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

959
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

960
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 3: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd

961
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 3: like to discuss with us, big or small, email us

962
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 3: at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

963
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: Our executive producers, Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by

964
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

965
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,360
Speaker 1: podcast Fairygodmother Katie Couric.

966
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 3: Next week we'll talk to a mother trying to forge

967
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 3: a more open line of communication with her adult children

968
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 3: after years of turmoil.

969
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 5: I don't want to be a wedge between him and

970
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 5: his wife. I want them to figure it out. And

971
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 5: so I think part of what's been holding me back

972
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 5: is saying I don't want to be in charge of

973
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 5: my children making personal decisions on such a huge scale

974
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 5: because of a comment I might have made.

975
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.